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ACEDIslam
11-02-2018, 09:57 AM
Assalam Alaykum,

I saw a thread vilifying a sect of American politics, and I thought I'd offer some perspective. I was warned that Muslims have varying views on such things, and that I should not allow differing opinions of individuals to dissuade me.

I am an American. Here is my take, and something to think about. I need to say my peace.

When Osama Bin Laden killed 3000 people on 9/11, it was liberals who defended Islam, and Christian conservatives crying to "kill all the rag heads."

When Bush invaded Iraq, it was liberals who filled the streets in protest.

Liberals push for the asylum of tens of thousands of Syrian refugees while Christian conservatives vilify them as terrorists and purge them from the country.

Liberals oppose Israeli apartheid and fight for and demonstrate for Palestinians.

Liberals are sympathetic to Islam and fight for the rights of Muslims. Liberals work to end oppression and vilification of Islam in the United States. Liberals work to ensure Muslims can practice their faith freely.

Please consider this, and consider showing some gratitude. Liberals are certainly not our ally in terms of social/cultural/religious beliefs, but they are a political ally in the west. So long as liberals exist in the US, we can count on our mosques existing there as well. The religious right in America DOES NOT LIKE US. They call our prophet a pedophile and a murderer. They call us terrorists and blame us for the actions of extremists. They accost us in public. They deny Muslim refugees their right to asylum.

I have seen all of this over and over. I have spoken to thousands of liberals and conservatives alike, and what I assert in this thread is typical.

I will not return to this thread. I simply can't bare to. I just needed to say my peace.
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Junon
11-10-2018, 06:06 AM
Salaam

Questioning liberalism is hardly vilification, in fact it was a general critique not particularly aimed at anybody. I generally agree with your assessment about those on the 'right' but don't kid yourself about those 'nice' liberals, they can have a 'subversive' influence.

Authentic Islam is facing extinction in the United States

5Pillars editor Roshan Muhammed Salih spoke with American Muslim writer and lecturer Daniel Haqiqatjou about Islam in America. Haqiqatjou warned that Islam is under attack by Islamophobes but is also being undermined by mainstream Muslim organisations.

Roshan Muhammed Salih: You believe that orthodox Islam is under threat in America. Why?

Daniel Haqiqatjou:
Yes, Islam is definitely under attack from different quarters. There are non-Muslim Islamophobes who tend to be Conservatives, but there are also some liberals such as Bill Maher and Sam Harris for example. These are people who are supposed to be on the political Left but they regularly target Islam and Muslims.

But unfortunately there are also a lot of Muslims who fall into this second camp (the liberals) and they have gained a lot of popularity. They say they are defending Muslims against the more obvious, overt attack by the Conservatives but a lot of the political content of the Left is also anti-Islam. And ignorance or naivety about this reality is very dangerous. I think you should be more concerned about the enemy that you don’t see than the one that is more obvious.

For instance, there is this activist called Linda Sarsour who is very popular amongst the average Muslim as well as amongst the national Muslim institutions. At least several times a month she is featured by some of these institutions for a fundraising event or a conference or a convention. And she also has direct endorsements from a number of scholars and this is despite the fact that she has gone on record with many statements that are fundamentally anti-Islamic. Yet she presents herself as if she is an orthodox mainstream Muslimah and this is very problematic. I don’t want to pick on Linda Sarsour in particular but she is seen as a role model and this is problematic in my view.

RMS: Do you think that if we were not so vocal about some of our views, such as Islam’s prohibition on homosexuality, that we would be better placed to form alliances with left-wing groups which could be useful in the overall fight against Islamophobia?

DH: What is the point of fighting Islamophobia if you’re distorting Islam and especially if you’re distorting Islam in the eyes of the next generation? What sort of Islam will be left if we do that? I hear this argument all the time: let’s not be so vocal about same-sex marriage or LGBT issues. We know that there are lots of bad things that Muslims and non-Muslims do in society so why are we focusing on things like LGBT and being so vocal about it?

But these arguments are nonsense for a number of reasons. Yes, as Muslims we should not support all the other Fahisha (lewdness), things like gambling or the consumption of alcohol or drug use. In the US there is a huge drug epidermic; it’s wiping out entire suburbs and we shouldn’t be any less vocal on these issues and only raise the flag when it comes to LGBT. We should be consistent across the board.

But what makes LGBT a more pressing issue is that this is what is being debated now in society, so where is the Muslim voice? Are we going to be absent and not have a view on this issue? Are we not going to teach our children in the masjids about Islam’s position on homosexuality? In Canada they’re trying to make it illegal to say that engaging in homosexuality is sinful or wrong. So no matter how quiet you are on this issue, that’s not enough because now they’re trying to dictate what you can and cannot say about it in the masaajid.

RMS: There seem to be some fundamental differences between British and American Muslims. American Muslims are more affluent, more liberal and more patriotic. American Muslims have also watered down their religion to a certain extent. Would this be a fair reflection?

DH: Yes I agree with that. I can’t make a direct comparison with the UK because I haven’t been to the UK. But in the United States there is a high premium placed on the notion of being a “Muslim American” or “American Islam.” And these are concepts that are promoted in mainstream gatherings and in mainstream discourse.

As far as I can tell this is not something that is happening in the UK; there are people out there who are promoting “British Islam,” but they’re on the fringes, they’re not in the mainstream. But here in the US you have keynote speakers at mainstream conventions with thousands of people attending and they will say “yes, I am an unapologetic Muslim” and then they will say “we love this country.”

And then you have somebody like Khizr Khan who is the father of the soldier Humayun Khan who died in the Iraq war. He will be a star speaker at these conventions and he is being promoted like this is what it means to be an American Muslim – a proud father who sends his son to fight in an American war and the contradictions of that are not even apparent. And Muslims have become accustomed to dealing in this kind of politics reflexively.

RMS: Don’t you think it’s hyperbolic to talk about the possible extinction of Islam in the United States if you go down this route of appeasement?

DH: No, I don’t think it’s hyperbolic to be concerned about the future of Islam in this country. I think the statistic is that a quarter of Muslims born in America with Muslim parentage end up leaving Islam. So we have 25% who are dropping off and when we go to the masjid we are not seeing youths who are active in the masjid.

But there is a lot of immigration which is filling up the masjid so our community is not aware of this demographic downfall. So when you go for prayers on Friday you have a parking problem and the masjid is full and because of that people say we’re doing great and our numbers are better than ever.

But the reality is that the problem is masked by immigration and if the immigration was cut off completely then we would have to ask ourselves can the community regenerate itself? Well if we’re losing 25% every generation that means extinction in three generations. And leaving aside people who are leaving Islam, there is the distortion of Islam that is happening and we are not teaching or children authentic Islam. So what kind of Islam is the next generation going to be practising? Is it going to be the kind of Islam where homosexuality is okay? Where the hijab is about choice and your personal preference? Where a female can lead daily prayers in the masjid because it seems “sexist” that only a man can lead prayers?

So if that’s the kind of Islam that we’re okay with, then yes that kind of Islam can exist in the next few generations. But I don’t think that’s a success.

https://5pillarsuk.com/2018/11/07/da...united-states/

Choose your friends carefully.
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fschmidt
11-10-2018, 07:43 AM
The Right wants to oppress Islam while the Left wants to corrupt Islam. The Left is the much more serious threat. A religion can survive oppression but not corruption.

But ultimately the fate of Islam depends on Muslims themselves. How will Muslims react to Leftist corruption? So far Muslims have defended themselves poorly. My suggestion is that Muslims learn from another group that has already solved this problem, namely traditional Anabaptists. I discussed this here:

http://www.mikraite.org/Learning-fro...es-tp1884.html
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anatolian
11-10-2018, 08:50 AM
Originally Posted by fschmidt
The Right wants to oppress Islam while the Left wants to corrupt Islam. The Left is the much more serious threat. A religion can survive oppression but not corruption.

But ultimately the fate of Islam depends on Muslims themselves. How will Muslims react to Leftist corruption? So far Muslims have defended themselves poorly. My suggestion is that Muslims learn from another group that has already solved this problem, namely traditional Anabaptists. I discussed this here:

http://www.mikraite.org/Learning-fro...es-tp1884.html
The fate of Islam depends on the will of Allah. Whatever He wills will happen. Dont know what the Anabaptists did but what Muslims need to do in the West is the exact same thing they need to do in the Muslims lands, following Islam. Otherwise ofcourse they will corrupt regardless of location because this world is a world of inception. There is already a high scale corruption in the Muslim lands due to lack of complete understanding and practice of Islam. Many people just follow a stereotype tradition as if it is the religion itself. They perform their prayers 5 times a day but lie 10 times in the same day. They fast in Ramazan but eat haram in the rest of the year. They give zakat but earn much more from illegal ways. I wouldnt expect other than corruption in such an enviroment. Neither blame liberals or christian right Wings but muslims themselves are the source of corruption all over the world.
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fschmidt
11-10-2018, 09:12 AM
Originally Posted by anatolian
The fate of Islam depends on the will of Allah. Whatever He wills will happen.
If I punch you in the nose, are you going to accept it as God's will or are you going to do something about it? Yes everything is God's will, but using that as an excuse for inaction is wrong.

Dont know what the Anabaptists did but what Muslims need to do in the West is the exact same thing they need to do in the Muslims lands, following Islam. Otherwise ofcourse they will corrupt regardless of location because this world is a world of inception. There is already a high scale corruption in the Muslim lands due to lack of complete understanding and practice of Islam. Many people just follow a stereotype tradition as if it is the religion itself. They perform their prayers 5 times a day but lie 10 times in the same day. They fast in Ramazan but eat haram in the rest of the year. They give zakat but earn much more from illegal ways. I wouldnt expect other than corruption in such an enviroment. Neither blame liberals or christian right Wings but muslims themselves are the source of corruption all over the world.
Did you read my link? Islam teaches morals and religious practice. It doesn't teach engineering or how to implement traffic laws or how to organize people to resist modern culture. Resisting modern culture is not primarily an issue of religion, but rather an issue of organization. With the right organization, it would become easier for Muslims to resist modern culture and to better follow Islam.
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jj3504
11-10-2018, 03:55 PM
Liberals only support Islam as long Muslims are useful. One day that will end because liberals will start demanding that Islam be “reformed” that meaning that Muslims support all liberal causes in opposition to Islam. Unfortunately Muslims have been very good at supporting liberal causes. If Muslims are not careful and just blindly support liberalism without ever questioning it then one day Islam will be unrecognizable.
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Futuwwa
11-12-2018, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by ACEDIslam
I will not return to this thread. I simply can't bare to. I just needed to say my peace.
That is most unfortunate. You bring important perspective, but one that is largely wasted if you will not discuss. I would welcome a discussion with you on the matter, without knowing beforehand how much we would agree, at start or at end. Making a one-way broadcast like that, implicitly asking others to consider it while not considering what others have to say on the matter, is most rude. This is a discussion forum, not a one-way billboard, let alone the Wittgenstein Castle Church door.
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Junon
11-17-2018, 07:38 AM
Originally Posted by fschmidt
The Right wants to oppress Islam while the Left wants to corrupt Islam. The Left is the much more serious threat. A religion can survive oppression but not corruption.

But ultimately the fate of Islam depends on Muslims themselves. How will Muslims react to Leftist corruption? So far Muslims have defended themselves poorly. My suggestion is that Muslims learn from another group that has already solved this problem, namely traditional Anabaptists. I discussed this here:

http://www.mikraite.org/Learning-fro...es-tp1884.html
Yes.

For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.

Sun Tzu

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Karl
11-21-2018, 11:27 PM
At the end of the day the lefty liberals are for global socialism and the right wingers are not. The origin of left and right wing comes from France just after the revolution. The right side of the house of parliament supported the monarchy and the left side were communists that did not. Islam supports a Caliphate so it is totally not compatible with the liberal mind set. There are also a lot of people in the West who call themselves "conservative" but they are really neo conservatives which are really just a form of Zionist greedy for money liberal anyway. Genuine conservatives don't find an issue with Muhammad (PBUH) marrying a six year old as they believe that such things as "marriageable age" is a non issue and a domestic matter purely up to individual fathers to decide for themselves. Also genuine conservatives are not the least bit interested in the domestic affairs of foreign nations. Trump is a neo conservative but does not appear to be as hostile as G W Bush or Liberals like Clinton or Obama.
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