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CuriousonTruth
01-29-2019, 03:18 PM
Salam, I'm a new member. Actually I came by because I saw [a reddit thread-removed]

Here hundreds of muslim women say they are dating/marrying non-muslim men.

Personally, I don't know muslim women a lot but is this how a lot of muslim women think and want? Please no censorship, I just want to know the truth, that's it.
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*charisma*
01-31-2019, 09:31 PM
Walaikum Assalaam,

Absolutely not.

The content of what you posted was removed because most of the women there are not even religious. Allah abiding women will not even look at a kaafir for marriage. There are decent nonMuslims out there, but at the end of the day they are still not Muslim and marriages to them will be invalid to begin with. Anyways we should be lowering our gazes, so for some women to shamelessly claim that they date these men or even leave their families for them is ridiculous and very saddening. It shows that their priorities are their desires, not to please Allah.
Reply

Nájlá
01-31-2019, 10:48 PM
No. Never. Why would i want to disappoint Allah (SWT).

The women you are talking about are far away from practising their religion Islam. And what they are doing is very very wrong. May Allah guide them and protect us.
Reply

Nitro Zeus
01-31-2019, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
Salam, I'm a new member. Actually I came by because I saw [a reddit thread-removed]

Here hundreds of muslim women say they are dating/marrying non-muslim men.

Personally, I don't know muslim women a lot but is this how a lot of muslim women think and want? Please no censorship, I just want to know the truth, that's it.
Quran has strictly prohibited for women to marry non Muslim men for God Says: "Let not your daughters to marry non Muslims..." The reason because, non Muslims will try to convert Muslim women to other faiths than Islam and that is wrong. And there are other many reasons why it is haram this kind of marriage. Also, Quran says: "do not approach near adultery and fornicarions" this is regarding dating.
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DanEdge
02-01-2019, 12:27 AM
Oh no! That's not fair, ladies. Why do you have to be so smart and beautiful, and then say that you will never marry me? I'm not a bad guy.
Reply

IslamLife00
02-01-2019, 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
Salam, I'm a new member. Actually I came by because I saw [a reddit thread-removed]
Here hundreds of muslim women say they are dating/marrying non-muslim men.
Personally, I don't know muslim women a lot but is this how a lot of muslim women think and want? Please no censorship, I just want to know the truth, that's it.
A person can register online and say he/she is a muslim, that doesn't mean he/she is.

Since Islam is not only a belief, but the practice of that belief - it's hard to imagine any muslimah wants to share her life with a non muslim, especially considering the children has to be raised in Islam.

But I can't say what other muslimah wants or thinks or why they want/think it. Each of us will answer Allah for our deeds.
Reply

Nitro Zeus
02-01-2019, 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by DanEdge
Oh no! That's not fair, ladies. Why do you have to be so smart and beautiful, and then say that you will never marry me? I'm not a bad guy.
No, you are going against their will. Their will is to merry only Muslim men, they don't want to be merry a non Muslim. If you don't like something from that person, you have the right to stay away from him. And if Muslim women don't want to merry non Muslim men, it is their right.

I think this is much fair. If you ask a Muslim woman to merry you for example and she refuses because of your religion, then you cannot force her to do something she does not want, that's against human right.
Reply

DanEdge
02-01-2019, 01:09 AM
Originally Posted by Nitro Zeus
No, you are going against their will. Their will is to merry only Muslim men, they don't want to be merry a non Muslim. If you don't like something from that person, you have the right to stay away from him. And if Muslim women don't want to merry non Muslim men, it is their right.

I think this is much fair. If you ask a Muslim woman to merry you for example and she refuses because of your religion, then you cannot force her to do something she does not want, that's against human right.
I was only joking, my friend. I respect anyone's decision to follow their religion. It is commendable to stick to one's principles.

That said, I do not like this about many religions: that you are only allowed to marry people of the same religion. Love is a powerful force and sometimes it strikes suddenly with the intensity of lightning.

To be honest, if I met a Muslim woman who attracted me, I would probably pursue her until she told me not to. I am (politely) aggressive with women, and I am attracted intelligent, creative, and somewhat crazy women.

That is just my way, and it is part of the culture here in the South in USA. If you meet a woman you like, then you compliment her and ask her out on a date. Then you just have to respect her answer.

To some, this may make me seem like an agent of Satan, but it doesn't seem like that to me at all. I am a kind and loving person, and that love is not restricted to anyone based on their religion. Like I said, though, I totally respect anyone's decision to follow their on religious principles when it comes to romance and marriage.

-- Dan Edge
Reply

CuriousonTruth
02-01-2019, 02:23 AM
I did not ask for the ruling I know the ruling of course.

I'm asking how many break the ruling. Recently social media influencers like Dina Tokio have promoted marriage between Muslim women and non-muslim men.

And I had a look at the comments, far from criticizing her, many Muslim women came to support her, many were with hijab in their profile pic. They were saying comments like "It is our right to marry who we like."

So that I was curious on the truth (hence my user name) on this matter. Do a lot of Muslim women in the West want to marry non-muslim men? If so, what percentage of them in estimate?

- - - Updated - - -

Another I would add and something that might piss a lot of people.......

If this is indeed how Muslim women act once they are given freedom like in the West, then wouldn't the Taliban, Saudi, Iranian stance on female freedom be the best way forward for Islam?

If you disagree please discuss why so?
Reply

DanEdge
02-01-2019, 03:36 AM
I am confused about something. Maybe you guys can help me. I gathered from verse 5 of Surah Al-Ma'ida that it was permitted for Muslims to marry people of the book. Did I misunderstand this?or was that just for some particular time period, or some particular situation?
Reply

CuriousonTruth
02-01-2019, 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by DanEdge
I am confused about something. Maybe you guys can help me. I gathered from verse 5 of Surah Al-Ma'ida that it was permitted for Muslims to marry people of the book. Did I misunderstand this?or was that just for some particular time period, or some particular situation?
No it is only permitted for Muslim men to marry from People of the book, not women.

And if you are going to want to turn this into a debate, let me tell you all schools of Sunni Islam, Shia Islam, Salafism, Sufi Islam, deobandis, tablighis, Barelwis, etc have ruled it is completely forbidden for a Muslim woman to marry non-muslim man.

If you have been in a Muslim forum long enough, you should have realized by now it is quite a feat that scholars across all sects agree on something.
Reply

CuriousonTruth
02-01-2019, 04:04 AM
Originally Posted by *charisma*
Walaikum Assalaam,

Absolutely not.

The content of what you posted was removed because most of the women there are not even religious. Allah abiding women will not even look at a kaafir for marriage. There are decent nonMuslims out there, but at the end of the day they are still not Muslim and marriages to them will be invalid to begin with. Anyways we should be lowering our gazes, so for some women to shamelessly claim that they date these men or even leave their families for them is ridiculous and very saddening. It shows that their priorities are their desires, not to please Allah.
There is a problem to this. You say Allah abiding women won't.

But there are religious women who date non-muslim men, hoping to convert them.
Reply

Search
02-01-2019, 06:22 AM
:bism: (In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


First and foremost, welcome to Islamicboard. Thank you for entrusting us with your inquiries.

Secondly, to answer your question, no one here can give you accurate information as to how many Muslim women might be breaking the clear Qur'anic injunction on this matter, as none of us here are social scientists that have done research on the specifics of this matter or pollsters who have accumulated data on such. What I can say is I believe the percentage might be smaller than what you probably seem to imagine or might have been led to imagine. And what I personally hope is that the percentage is minuscule, but Allah (God) alone knows best.

Thirdly, no matter who the social media influencer is, Dina Tokio or anyone else (may Allah forgive and guide all peoples spreading erroneous information to the Straight Path), we do not extract our role models on Islam from modern-day peoples. Our Islam, Alhamdhullilah (thanks, gratitude, and credit to Allah) has been beautified and exemplified to us in the lives of Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him), next the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them) of the Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him), and, after that, the Tabi'un (people who saw the Companions) and Tabi' al-Tabi'in (the generation after the Tabi'un). We look to Qur'an and the Sunnah (prophetic way of life) and the best generations as enumerated above to guide us to the Pleasure of Allah (God). These are the best generations as a hadith (prophetic tradition) attests; and as Muslims, we should know that these are sufficiently our role models for all Time.

Fourthly, we do not take our cue from modern (and often oppressive) regimes like Saudi Arabia or Iran or Taliban on how we ought to treat Muslim women or what freedoms we should or should not afford them. We have had a Caliphate for most of Islamic history, except in the last 100 years (with the eventual fall of the Ottoman Caliphate). So, we cannot subtract freedoms given to Muslim women on account of some women abusing their freedoms in the West.

However, what I can tell you is that Muslims in the last 100 years or so have moved to the West in unprecedented numbers in recent history and most for definitively worldly reasons; this is an innovative practice as, from what I understand, and Allah (God) knows best, the only valid reason to move to non-Muslims lands is to give dawah (invitation to Islam) or clear-cut extreme cases of oppression with no better remaining choice for Muslims to avail otherwise. So, of course, when Muslims live and work among their non-Muslim brethren, their children, often not brought up into households with an Islamic focus, regardless of gender, many times growing up in that environment, may incline toward non-Muslim school mates, co-workers, neighbors, or friends; this is natural from a worldly perspective but undesirable from a hereafter perspective because Muslims' end goal is pleasure of Allah (God) rather than pleasure in fulfillment of any other inclinations. If anything, this shows the error of previous Muslim generations in bringing their children to the West without often (a) proper deliberation on the future state of subsequent generations of Muslims and (b) noble intentions of making dawah (invitation to Islam) to our non-Muslim brethren or (c) rearing their children in Islam-centered households.

Allah is Al-Wadud ("The Loving") and Allah has granted both men and women from among human beings the desire to love and be loved; there is nothing wrong in that desire if it is channeled as a means of attaining lasting fulfillment in both worlds; however, it is not from Islam to fulfill one's desires at the expense of the hereafter. So, women who do so are in the wrong. No excuse or justification is accepted in Islam from following or innovating errors into the religion. May Allah guide them and us to the Straight Path and Allah's Pleasure.

Muslim women are people like you, with their real flaws and foibles and desires; they have their bad qualities and they have their good qualities. Many are outwardly religious and others are inwardly religious, but the optimal situation is for a Muslim women to embody both inward and outward the perfection of Islam in her intentions, thought patterns, and actions.

From our Muslim ummah (brethren), many women undoubtedly err, and it is not the hijab (headscarf) on their heads that indicate their true religiosity level but the taqwa (God-consciousness) in their hearts. If you see a believing man or believing woman erring, it is your obligation to correct them if at all possible or out of mercy simply make supplications for their guidance as you may feel appropriate. Please do not extrapolate from some Muslim women being in or justifying this error to many or even most Muslim desiring to similarly err; it is not from Islam to carry bad thoughts about our sisters or brothers.

Allah (God) has given us freedom to make the right or wrong choices in life; if someone deliberately makes the wrong choices in life despite knowing the right from wrong, Allah (God) and the ummah (brethren) are free from responsibility of the wrongdoer's wrong actions.

For the women who innovate such wrongs into the religion, enough is the reminder in the the Qur'an (31:33), which says, "Truly, the promise of God is True, so let not this present life delude you nor let the deluder delude you about God."

:wa: (And peace be upon you)

Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
I did not ask for the ruling I know the ruling of course.
Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth

I'm asking how many break the ruling. Recently social media influencers like Dina Tokio have promoted marriage between Muslim women and non-muslim men.

And I had a look at the comments, far from criticizing her, many Muslim women came to support her, many were with hijab in their profile pic. They were saying comments like "It is our right to marry who we like."

So that I was curious on the truth (hence my user name) on this matter. Do a lot of Muslim women in the West want to marry non-muslim men? If so, what percentage of them in estimate?

- - - Updated - - -

Another I would add and something that might piss a lot of people.......

If this is indeed how Muslim women act once they are given freedom like in the West, then wouldn't the Taliban, Saudi, Iranian stance on female freedom be the best way forward for Islam?

If you disagree please discuss why so?
Reply

CuriousonTruth
02-01-2019, 07:03 AM
Originally Posted by Search
:bism: (In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


First and foremost, welcome to Islamicboard. Thank you for entrusting us with your inquiries.

Secondly, to answer your question, no one here can give you accurate information as to how many Muslim women might be breaking the clear Qur'anic injunction on this matter, as none of us here are social scientists that have done research on the specifics of this matter or pollsters who have accumulated data on such. What I can say is I believe the percentage might be smaller than what you probably seem to imagine or might have been led to imagine. And what I personally hope is that the percentage is minuscule, but Allah (God) alone knows best.

Thirdly, no matter who the social media influencer is, Dina Tokio or anyone else (may Allah forgive and guide all peoples spreading erroneous information to the Straight Path), we do not extract our role models on Islam from modern-day peoples. Our Islam, Alhamdhullilah (thanks, gratitude, and credit to Allah) has been beautified and exemplified to us in the lives of Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him), next the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them) of the Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him), and, after that, the Tabi'un (people who saw the Companions) and Tabi' al-Tabi'in (the generation after the Tabi'un). We look to Qur'an and the Sunnah (prophetic way of life) and the best generations as enumerated above to guide us to the Pleasure of Allah (God). These are the best generations as a hadith (prophetic tradition) attests; and as Muslims, we should know that these are sufficiently our role models for all Time.

Fourthly, we do not take our cue from modern (and often oppressive) regimes like Saudi Arabia or Iran or Taliban on how we ought to treat Muslim women or what freedoms we should or should not afford them. We have had a Caliphate for most of Islamic history, except in the last 100 years (with the eventual fall of the Ottoman Caliphate). So, we cannot subtract freedoms given to Muslim women on account of some women abusing their freedoms in the West.

However, what I can tell you is that Muslims in the last 100 years or so have moved to the West in unprecedented numbers in recent history and most for definitively worldly reasons; this is an innovative practice as, from what I understand, and Allah (God) knows best, the only valid reason to move to non-Muslims lands is to give dawah (invitation to Islam) or clear-cut extreme cases of oppression with no better remaining choice for Muslims to avail otherwise. So, of course, when Muslims live and work among their non-Muslim brethren, their children, often not brought up into households with an Islamic focus, regardless of gender, many times growing up in that environment, may incline toward non-Muslim school mates, co-workers, neighbors, or friends; this is natural from a worldly perspective but undesirable from a hereafter perspective because Muslims' end goal is pleasure of Allah (God) rather than pleasure in fulfillment of any other inclinations. If anything, this shows the error of previous Muslim generations in bringing their children to the West without often (a) proper deliberation on the future state of subsequent generations of Muslims and (b) noble intentions of making dawah (invitation to Islam) to our non-Muslim brethren or (c) rearing their children in Islam-centered households.

Allah is Al-Wadud ("The Loving") and Allah has granted both men and women from among human beings the desire to love and be loved; there is nothing wrong in that desire if it is channeled as a means of attaining lasting fulfillment in both worlds; however, it is not from Islam to fulfill one's desires at the expense of the hereafter. So, women who do so are in the wrong. No excuse or justification is accepted in Islam from following or innovating errors into the religion. May Allah guide them and us to the Straight Path and Allah's Pleasure.

Muslim women are people like you, with their real flaws and foibles and desires; they have their bad qualities and they have their good qualities. Many are outwardly religious and others are inwardly religious, but the optimal situation is for a Muslim women to embody both inward and outward the perfection of Islam in her intentions, thought patterns, and actions.

From our Muslim ummah (brethren), many women undoubtedly err, and it is not the hijab (headscarf) on their heads that indicate their true religiosity level but the taqwa (God-consciousness) in their hearts. If you see a believing man or believing woman erring, it is your obligation to correct them if at all possible or out of mercy simply make supplications for their guidance as you may feel appropriate. Please do not extrapolate from some Muslim women being in or justifying this error to many or even most Muslim desiring to similarly err; it is not from Islam to carry bad thoughts about our sisters or brothers.

Allah (God) has given us freedom to make the right or wrong choices in life; if someone deliberately makes the wrong choices in life despite knowing the right from wrong, Allah (God) and the ummah (brethren) are free from responsibility of the wrongdoer's wrong actions.

For the women who innovate such wrongs into the religion, enough is the reminder in the the Qur'an (31:33), which says, "Truly, the promise of God is True, so let not this present life delude you nor let the deluder delude you about God."

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Thank you for the reply.

I thought given most here live in the West, they could put up an estimate. Oh well.

You are not pragmatic when you say that. Many young Muslims follow them. Whether we like it or not, the opinions of social media figures do shape the mind of many young Muslims, either for good or bad.

If you say so, I'm waiting if other members also agree with that. I used to criticize Taliban's stance on women but personally I can see where they are coming from. They want to protect Muslims from turning westernized. Looking at Western society where women have so much, influence and sway, law is on their side, I would not want to be in such a place.

Surely it is more than a mistake because she has basically left the Muslim community to become a member of her husband's community, therefore she practically has no ties with the Muslim community. Isn't that a form of apostasy?
Reply

Search
02-01-2019, 08:17 AM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Hope you're doing awesome, Dan. It is nice to see you posting here on Islamicboard.

If Allah (God) wills, I wanted to answer your implicit question and the other query to the best of my abilities.

I agree with you that love is a very powerful force. Therefore, I find it no surprise that one of Allah's (God's) 99 names is Al-Wadud, meaning, "The Loving." Indeed, Allah (God) is the author of all love. Without love, there would be no mercy or affinity among human beings. God is not oppressive of the desire to love or be loved. However, God desires that we as human beings understand what is love and to whom we should give that love which springs in our hearts. In Islam, a man or a woman is not simply a physical being. That person has a heavenly personality, that is, the soul, which desires to be set free. Given that each human being has been given a responsibility to discover and know this heavenly personality which resides within us, any block spiritually is devastation for the hereafter. And therefore, it is important for a believer to invest that love into God first. When that divine love truly takes root in the the heart of the believer first, that love then is able to be channeled into love for human beings. And when that love for all human beings is then properly funneled into a mate picked for life, then that person is likely to see that companion as a human being and honored creation of God first whom one should treat with love and then secondarily as a companion about whom the Qur'an (2:187) says, "They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them." This beautiful verse makes clear the husband-wife relationship is to be the most intimate of relationships wherein both have the responsibility of another to cover, protect, and safeguard the interests of the other, to move in grace as analogically the garment moves as one with the body and is loved to be worn for practical as well as impractical reasons like beautifying the person (in the case of spousal relationship enabling the beautification of the inward and outward character of the person).

This relationship will thereby be inherently unbalanced if a Muslim woman pursues it with a non-Muslim no matter how kind or nice the non-Muslim man is for the reasons that he will most likely not have mutual interest in helping her maintain specific obligations for the purposes of her faith in God: For example, a believing woman is restricted from have intercourse during her menstrual cycle, and a nonbeliever is less likely to understand or feel obliged to follow that restriction. A believing woman is obliged to fast in the month of Shahru Ramadan from sunrise to sunset and cannot have intercourse during that time, and a nonbeliever is less likely to understand or feel obliged to allow her that freedom to be free from his sexual advances for that given time period. Also, a Muslim woman must make ablution before praying and must be in that ritualistic state of purity when commencing prayer, which means she also cannot indulge his sexual play whenever she is about to pray. Also, a believer is not to engage in anal sex, which might not be able to be understood from a nonbeliever's point of view.

Furthermore, a Muslim woman must raise her children in Islam, because it is a matter of both her and her children's hereafter; this might also likely be a point of contention in such a marriage; and even if an agreement is reached about the children being raised in Islam, it is likely the children will be confused about or grow distant from Islam seeing the father not following Islam. Moreover, in Islam, a believer has to pay zakat, obligatory payment made annually under Islamic law on certain kinds of property, to the poor and needy, which is essentially a wealth tax; and a nonbeliever might be less inclined to see that obligation as serving the household's combined financial interests. Also, a believing woman is obliged to make pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in her lifetime to wash away her sins; and she will be unable to travel alongside a non-believing partner to do so, because non-Muslims are not allowed to enter the sacred place in Mecca. She will have to bear the hardships of journeying without a trusted partner to engage in the same goal. These things might seem small right at the outset when the embers of love first begin to grow, but, as you may know, love does not always remain the passionate love of the first stage in a romantic relationship but transforms into a more knowing and comfortable kind of love later; and in that other stage, what might have seemed small then in the beginning is likely to grow into big differences or annoyances which have the power to break a loving relationship. And a relationship, from an Islamic standpoint, which did not build its foundation on the mutual love of God, which is considered primordial and eternal, is then less likely to last when temporal cracks appear.

And you are right; Muslims are allowed to marry the chase and righteous from among the People of the Book, but that is a permission granted only to Muslim men. I understand this might seem discriminatory at the outset, but given what I've told you of what Islam requires of believers, I think you'll be able to see why that permission is granted to Muslim men only. A Muslim man, even if he marries a wife from among the People of the Book, will be expected to refrain from intercourse with her during her menstrual cycles and to not engage in intercourse when he's fasting for Shahru Ramadan and never engage in anal sex. He will be able to make the journey to Mecca and make pilgrimage without feeling burdened by the hardships of the journey that a woman unaccompanied by a spousal partner might feel. He may give zakat without secondary thought, especially as still households around the globe still witness men generally taking care of the bulk of finances; however, a Muslim woman, especially if she is financially dependent as a housewife, might in the same arrangement not even be in position of bargaining to pay her obligation of zakat if she has a non-Muslim partner not so inclined.

In our time, there are undoubtedly some Muslim women, who in their lack of reflection on this matter more deeply, simply see the permission granted to men as an injustice against their own gender; however, if they truly began to reflect on what a marriage consists of in terms of sacrifices required, they'd realize that Islam is not preventing them from finding or acquiring the love they feel they deserve but is protecting them from unique harms that might emerge from such a marriage from the perspective of security for here and hereafter. And to be honest, if a Muslim woman truly believes in and loves God as per Islam, she is less likely to lust after the love of a man who does not believe in the same, because there would be no mutual foundation upon which to build the bridge to the hereafter in a partnership not based on the same. And even if she does happen to lust after the love of such a man, she will give up that love, for the sake of God. That is why believers remind themselves in prayer and outside of prayer, "AllahuAkbar," that is, "God is Greater."

Peace Be Upon Those Who Follow Guidance

Sincere Regards & Best Wishes,


Originally Posted by DanEdge
I was only joking, my friend. I respect anyone's decision to follow their religion. It is commendable to stick to one's principles.

That said, I do not like this about many religions: that you are only allowed to marry people of the same religion. Love is a powerful force and sometimes it strikes suddenly with the intensity of lightning.

To be honest, if I met a Muslim woman who attracted me, I would probably pursue her until she told me not to. I am (politely) aggressive with women, and I am attracted intelligent, creative, and somewhat crazy women.

That is just my way, and it is part of the culture here in the South in USA. If you meet a woman you like, then you compliment her and ask her out on a date. Then you just have to respect her answer.

To some, this may make me seem like an agent of Satan, but it doesn't seem like that to me at all. I am a kind and loving person, and that love is not restricted to anyone based on their religion. Like I said, though, I totally respect anyone's decision to follow their on religious principles when it comes to romance and marriage.

-- Dan Edge
Originally Posted by DanEdge
I am confused about something. Maybe you guys can help me. I gathered from verse 5 of Surah Al-Ma'ida that it was permitted for Muslims to marry people of the book. Did I misunderstand this?or was that just for some particular time period, or some particular situation?
Reply

MazharShafiq
02-01-2019, 08:22 AM
not at all Allah abiding women will not even look at a kaafir for marriage. There are decent nonMuslims out there, but at the end of the day they are still not Muslim and marriages to them will be invalid to begin with. Anyways we should be lowering our gazes, so for some women to shamelessly claim that they date these men or even leave their families for them is ridiculous .
Reply

Search
02-01-2019, 09:06 AM
:bism: In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

:sl: (Peace Be Upon You)

I acknowledge that there are many young Muslims who are susceptible to the influence of social media influencers. However, I hope that the general community and elders in particular will be able to teach young people that the people who are role models should be timeless, not for just this time. And I hope you are one such person to be able to communicate that in a wise manner to young people, as you seem to be passionate about this subject.

On another point, when you say you you don't want women to be Westernized, I understand you mean that to not adopting outlook or behaviors that are not indicative of their submission to Allah. That said, I humbly entreat you to be cautious when using this term "Westernized" because people raised or born in the West will be "Westernized" as a result of the cultural orientation but that doesn't always have to indicate a negative attribute if it doesn't conflict with Islam. For example, one of the values in Western culture is to have a work ethic which is also a cherished Islamic value. And another Western value is independence, which is also a desirable attribute in Islam so that a person is not reliant on others. This is one of the reasons Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him), for example, mended his own clothes and repaired his own shoes so that he may not depend on others for that service. Another Western value is privacy, which is also highly respected as a value in Islam. This is why one of the Sunnahs (prophetic way) of Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) is to not look into any house without being granted permission to enter the premises.

However, other modern Western values, such as consumerism or sexual freedom or promotion of gender neutrality, are against Islam. And of course, as Muslims, we should not adopt any values of any culture that are not aligned with Islam's moral compass.

As far as a Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim is concerned with respect to apostasy, this question is best put to a scholar, and I'm not one; so, I will not answer this question and instead ask that you address yourself to a scholar with this question.

Thank you.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)

Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
Thank you for the reply.

I thought given most here live in the West, they could put up an estimate. Oh well.

You are not pragmatic when you say that. Many young Muslims follow them. Whether we like it or not, the opinions of social media figures do shape the mind of many young Muslims, either for good or bad.

If you say so, I'm waiting if other members also agree with that. I used to criticize Taliban's stance on women but personally I can see where they are coming from. They want to protect Muslims from turning westernized. Looking at Western society where women have so much, influence and sway, law is on their side, I would not want to be in such a place.

Surely it is more than a mistake because she has basically left the Muslim community to become a member of her husband's community, therefore she practically has no ties with the Muslim community. Isn't that a form of apostasy?
Reply

CuriousonTruth
02-01-2019, 09:21 AM
Originally Posted by Search
:bism: In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

:sl: (Peace Be Upon You)

I acknowledge that there are many young Muslims who are susceptible to the influence of social media influencers. However, I hope that the general community and elders in particular will be able to teach young people that the people who are role models should be timeless, not for just this time. And I hope you are one such person to be able to communicate that in a wise manner to young people, as you seem to be passionate about this subject.

On another point, when you say you you don't want women to be Westernized, I understand you mean that to not adopting outlook or behaviors that are not indicative of their submission to Allah. That said, I humbly entreat you to be cautious when using this term "Westernized" because people raised or born in the West will be "Westernized" as a result of the cultural orientation but that doesn't always have to indicate a negative attribute if it doesn't conflict with Islam. For example, one of the values in Western culture is to have a work ethic which is also a cherished Islamic value. And another Western value is independence, which is also a desirable attribute in Islam so that a person is not reliant on others. This is one of the reasons Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him), for example, mended his own clothes and repaired his own shoes so that he may not depend on others for that service. Another Western value is privacy, which is also highly respected as a value in Islam. This is why one of the Sunnahs (prophetic way) of Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) is to not look into any house without being granted permission to enter the premises.

However, other modern Western values, such as consumerism or sexual freedom or promotion of gender neutrality, are against Islam. And of course, as Muslims, we should not adopt any values of any culture that are not aligned with Islam's moral compass.

As far as a Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim is concerned with respect to apostasy, this question is best put to a scholar, and I'm not one; so, I will not answer this question and instead ask that you address yourself to a scholar with this question.

Thank you.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
I do what I can within my limit.

With due respect, hard work or work ethic are Eastern culture. Same with discipline, sacrifice, respecting older people.

As for independence, I disagree, the whole point of Islam is to submit the will to Allah. So no in this matter Western culture is an anti-thesis to Islam.

But anyway that wasn't our point of discussion so I want to end this discussion here.
Reply

Mandy
02-01-2019, 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
There is a problem to this. You say Allah abiding women won't.

But there are religious women who date non-muslim men, hoping to convert them.
You seem to confuse muslim women with women who SAY they are muslim.

If a woman says she is muslim, but then goes on telling you that she never prays, never goes to the mosque, says that she eats pork, drinks alcohol and she also wears the most revealing cloths imaginable. Is she really muslim? I think not. She might says she is and she might be from a muslim family or muslim culture. But that is all.

As for women saying "I will marry him to convert him", maybe they say it, but it means they are not following Alllah's word.They are either confused or simply trying to make an excuse as to why they are disobeying. Be careful of what people say on social media. As that is usually far from the truth and just vanity.
Reply

Eric H
02-01-2019, 12:47 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Dan;

Originally Posted by DanEdge
That said, I do not like this about many religions: that you are only allowed to marry people of the same religion.
If you believe in a God who is the creator of all that is seen and unseen, then God should be the greatest influence in how we lead our lives. In the UK, the break down of the family unit, coincides with our country lacking faith in God. Marriage has lost its meaning, it is with great sadness that I meet a lot of depressed and suicidal men, they have children with several partners and are separated from all of them. Sex and having a good time seems to be the order of the day, as long as you are not hurting anyone; but people are deeply hurt after a break up. It is always about temptation and where these temptations lead us when we turn our back on God.

Marriage and having children is one of the hardest things we do in life. But marriage is more than the man and woman, there are the children, grandparents, uncles aunts, family and friends. Good marriages are the building block of good communities. Places of worship bring communities together and they work so much better when the grandparents, children, grand children, family and friends come together to help each other.

In the spirit of searching for God,

Eric
Reply

RisingLight
02-01-2019, 01:27 PM
I wrote a very long msg but erased it again.I am going to tell you a story instead.

Not everyone who has a hijab is a muslim.I came across an ex muslim group online once,they were young people,wearing hijab,going to masjid,fasting. But they were only doing this cuz of the fear from their parents.Those girls had hijab,if you saw them in real life youd be like ohh ma shaa Allah what a good muslim girl.But then online they would talk in a similar or worst way than those in non muslim groups. The thing those girls were saying about non muslim boys,or about their boyfriends,were disgusting.And then there was talk about religion where they couldnt stand praying or they would eat in secret and pretending to fast in ramadhan.
Their names were mostly shirk,one of the boys had put his name as Allah (astagfirullah)
Then there was another one,always going to the masjid but couldnt stand praying,he was only doing it because of his father.
They couldnt wait for their parents to die or to be independent so they wouldnt have to follow islam.
Some of them lived in places like saudi,so there would marry muslims and pretend to be muslims all their lives cuz they had no choice,but online and in secret would show their true self.
This wasnt a small group,it was big with people joinng and leaving everyday,and there are other groups like this and other people like them.who dont join this groups or have no means or time to access the internet.

So not everyone who wears a hijab is a muslim,not everyone born to muslim parents its a muslim.People have tons of reasons to act fake.I act fake too like a non muslim but when am alone am the contrary,so do they.In the streets youd think they are muslims but deep down they are not,they are just faking for a reason,and bring up exuses like this one "im marrying to conver him".Every muslim knows that doesnt happen.Allah can guide people only,there is no ensurance that just by talking about islam people will be guided.

Anyway,to answer your question,i think 0% of muslims date non muslims,except some very few cases where shaytan tricked them and now they are in love and dont have the power to break off it.Which its very sad and hard and may Allah make it easy for them to get out of that situaton.
But overall,no muslim girl would ever date a muslim,let alone a non muslim.
Reply

CuriousonTruth
02-01-2019, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by Mandy
You seem to confuse muslim women with women who SAY they are muslim.

If a woman says she is muslim, but then goes on telling you that she never prays, never goes to the mosque, says that she eats pork, drinks alcohol and she also wears the most revealing cloths imaginable. Is she really muslim? I think not. She might says she is and she might be from a muslim family or muslim culture. But that is all.

As for women saying "I will marry him to convert him", maybe they say it, but it means they are not following Alllah's word.They are either confused or simply trying to make an excuse as to why they are disobeying. Be careful of what people say on social media. As that is usually far from the truth and just vanity.
Driving home the point: A non-muslim physician

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by ICantBeMuslim
This wasnt a small group,it was big with people joinng and leaving everyday,and there are other groups like this and other people like them.who dont join this groups or have no means or time to access the internet.
I understanding, you're talking about Munafiqs. That is true what you say, but the particulars you mention are quite extreme.

But about the quote, I will sya if you meet a 1000 people online, you would I you've met a LOT of people. But it is not so. And it is abnormals who scream, normal people are dormant.

In my country, highest suscribed YT channel has 74k, highest suscribed Islamic channel has over 2 million. Same with every country. Ex-muslims scream a lot to get attention, and do blasphemy to get back at Islam. But they are losers.

But since my country is 85% muslim, actually a lot of muslim girls date other muslim guys. Sometime ago, I used to be critical, but now looking at how it is in the west, I overlook this telling myself, "Welp, atleast they are both muslims and happy."
Reply

SintoDinto
02-01-2019, 02:56 PM
nevermind. my post contained sensitive information.
Reply

DanEdge
02-01-2019, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Search
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Hope you're doing awesome, Dan. It is nice to see you posting here on Islamicboard.

If Allah (God) wills, I wanted to answer your implicit question and the other query to the best of my abilities.

I agree with you that love is a very powerful force. Therefore, I find it no surprise that one of Allah's (God's) 99 names is Al-Wadud, meaning, "The Loving." Indeed, Allah (God) is the author of all love. Without love, there would be no mercy or affinity among human beings. God is not oppressive of the desire to love or be loved. However, God desires that we as human beings understand what is love and to whom we should give that love which springs in our hearts. In Islam, a man or a woman is not simply a physical being. That person has a heavenly personality, that is, the soul, which desires to be set free. Given that each human being has been given a responsibility to discover and know this heavenly personality which resides within us, any block spiritually is devastation for the hereafter. And therefore, it is important for a believer to invest that love into God first. When that divine love truly takes root in the the heart of the believer first, that love then is able to be channeled into love for human beings. And when that love for all human beings is then properly funneled into a mate picked for life, then that person is likely to see that companion as a human being and honored creation of God first whom one should treat with love and then secondarily as a companion about whom the Qur'an (2:187) says, "They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them." This beautiful verse makes clear the husband-wife relationship is to be the most intimate of relationships wherein both have the responsibility of another to cover, protect, and safeguard the interests of the other, to move in grace as analogically the garment moves as one with the body and is loved to be worn for practical as well as impractical reasons like beautifying the person (in the case of spousal relationship enabling the beautification of the inward and outward character of the person).

This relationship will thereby be inherently unbalanced if a Muslim woman pursues it with a non-Muslim no matter how kind or nice the non-Muslim man is for the reasons that he will most likely not have mutual interest in helping her maintain specific obligations for the purposes of her faith in God: For example, a believing woman is restricted from have intercourse during her menstrual cycle, and a nonbeliever is less likely to understand or feel obliged to follow that restriction. A believing woman is obliged to fast in the month of Shahru Ramadan from sunrise to sunset and cannot have intercourse during that time, and a nonbeliever is less likely to understand or feel obliged to allow her that freedom to be free from his sexual advances for that given time period. Also, a Muslim woman must make ablution before praying and must be in that ritualistic state of purity when commencing prayer, which means she also cannot indulge his sexual play whenever she is about to pray. Also, a believer is not to engage in anal sex, which might not be able to be understood from a nonbeliever's point of view.

Furthermore, a Muslim woman must raise her children in Islam, because it is a matter of both her and her children's hereafter; this might also likely be a point of contention in such a marriage; and even if an agreement is reached about the children being raised in Islam, it is likely the children will be confused about or grow distant from Islam seeing the father not following Islam. Moreover, in Islam, a believer has to pay zakat, obligatory payment made annually under Islamic law on certain kinds of property, to the poor and needy, which is essentially a wealth tax; and a nonbeliever might be less inclined to see that obligation as serving the household's combined financial interests. Also, a believing woman is obliged to make pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in her lifetime to wash away her sins; and she will be unable to travel alongside a non-believing partner to do so, because non-Muslims are not allowed to enter the sacred place in Mecca. She will have to bear the hardships of journeying without a trusted partner to engage in the same goal. These things might seem small right at the outset when the embers of love first begin to grow, but, as you may know, love does not always remain the passionate love of the first stage in a romantic relationship but transforms into a more knowing and comfortable kind of love later; and in that other stage, what might have seemed small then in the beginning is likely to grow into big differences or annoyances which have the power to break a loving relationship. And a relationship, from an Islamic standpoint, which did not build its foundation on the mutual love of God, which is considered primordial and eternal, is then less likely to last when temporal cracks appear.

And you are right; Muslims are allowed to marry the chase and righteous from among the People of the Book, but that is a permission granted only to Muslim men. I understand this might seem discriminatory at the outset, but given what I've told you of what Islam requires of believers, I think you'll be able to see why that permission is granted to Muslim men only. A Muslim man, even if he marries a wife from among the People of the Book, will be expected to refrain from intercourse with her during her menstrual cycles and to not engage in intercourse when he's fasting for Shahru Ramadan and never engage in anal sex. He will be able to make the journey to Mecca and make pilgrimage without feeling burdened by the hardships of the journey that a woman unaccompanied by a spousal partner might feel. He may give zakat without secondary thought, especially as still households around the globe still witness men generally taking care of the bulk of finances; however, a Muslim woman, especially if she is financially dependent as a housewife, might in the same arrangement not even be in position of bargaining to pay her obligation of zakat if she has a non-Muslim partner not so inclined.

In our time, there are undoubtedly some Muslim women, who in their lack of reflection on this matter more deeply, simply see the permission granted to men as an injustice against their own gender; however, if they truly began to reflect on what a marriage consists of in terms of sacrifices required, they'd realize that Islam is not preventing them from finding or acquiring the love they feel they deserve but is protecting them from unique harms that might emerge from such a marriage from the perspective of security for here and hereafter. And to be honest, if a Muslim woman truly believes in and loves God as per Islam, she is less likely to lust after the love of a man who does not believe in the same, because there would be no mutual foundation upon which to build the bridge to the hereafter in a partnership not based on the same. And even if she does happen to lust after the love of such a man, she will give up that love, for the sake of God. That is why believers remind themselves in prayer and outside of prayer, "AllahuAkbar," that is, "God is Greater."

Peace Be Upon Those Who Follow Guidance

Sincere Regards & Best Wishes,
Greetings Lady,

As usual, your response was brilliant, thorough, poignant, and to the point. Your writing has gotten better over the past few years. I note and appreciate your ability to change tone to more effectively communicate to different individuals.

Your friend,

--Dan
Reply

Insaanah
02-01-2019, 04:38 PM
Wa alaikum assalam and welcome to the forum

“I'm asking how many break the ruling. Recently social media influencers like ..... have promoted marriage between Muslim women and non-muslim men.

And I had a look at the comments, far from criticizing her, many Muslim women came to support her, many were with hijab in their profile pic. They were saying comments like "It is our right to marry who we like."

So that I was curious on the truth (hence my user name) on this matter. Do a lot of Muslim women in the West want to marry non-muslim men? If so, what percentage of them in estimate?”
Anyone can take a pic wearing hijab, give themselves a Muslim screen name, and hey presto, there are lots of Muslim women who want to marry non-Muslim men. You have no idea who is sitting behind that computer screen, tablet or phone. Even though the figure of even those compared to the worlds population of Muslims will be peanuts.

Figures don’t have much relevance, and we’ve not been taught to quantify sins. It is what we can actually do that’s important. Understanding the ruling, so that we can inform and educate and help if we come across someone about to go into that scenario, no matter what the figures might be, and in some cases, perhaps that education and understanding that will save our own selves too.

actually a lot of muslim girls date other muslim guys. Sometime ago, I used to be critical, but now looking at how it is in the west, I overlook this telling myself, "Welp, atleast they are both muslims and happy."
We are not ones to overlook. It is only Allah who can overlook sins should He choose to do so.

There isn’t a concept of well at least it’s this sin so it doesn’t matter as much as that sin. Even if those committing the sin are Muslim and happy doing it.
Reply

anatolian
02-01-2019, 05:10 PM
Its mostly because of the popularity of the white guys rather then non muslim. Western cultural imperialism has succesfully promoted the white race to be more desirable.
Reply

*charisma*
02-01-2019, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
There is a problem to this. You say Allah abiding women won't.

But there are religious women who date non-muslim men, hoping to convert them.
I did say Allah-abiding, so if they are dating, they are not abiding Allah. What a "religious" person is can be relative to each individual which is why we need to look at what is considered religious by Allah's standards, not our own. I don't know of any religious women by standards of Islam who would even consider nonMuslims. Yes, we may talk to nonMuslims about Islam or find a way to help them if they are truly interested (dawah), but that is not really considered dating. There is no validity in a Muslimah's marriage to a nonMuslim man. She would be living in zina which is a major sin, as well as disobeying the parents which is another great sin. By those standards, I'd think that no matter how outwardly "religious" a girl is I cannot fathom that living in zina, the disobedience against the parents, and mostly the disobedience against Allah would still consider her as religious. Our love and obedience is to Allah is first and foremost. To leave all that behind for one of his disbelieving creations is not really ideal. There may be individual cases where a pious girl truly does somehow find herself attracted to a nonMuslim guy but I'd probably say the way this would happen is if she lives in a community where there are not many Muslims and the guy has admirable and respectable qualities that she'd like to see in a potential husband or who truly is interested in converting. But again this is probably rare and individualistic and I still would think that such a girl would still becareful and protect herself from making any grave mistakes. No one is perfect, but the difference is being conscious of our sins and truly repenting.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by anatolian
Its mostly because of the popularity of the white guys rather then non muslim. Western cultural imperialism has succesfully promoted the white race to be more desirable.
While this is true, I don't think it has much to do with physical attraction. If you don't have a sense of self and core beliefs, you're easily persuaded by the ideas around you. There are muslim/hindu marriages in India for example which are absolutely forbidden Islamically for both genders.
Reply

CuriousonTruth
02-02-2019, 01:38 AM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
We are not ones to overlook. It is only Allah who can overlook sins should He choose to do so.

There isn’t a concept of well at least it’s this sin so it doesn’t matter as much as that sin. Even if those committing the sin are Muslim and happy doing it.
I'm just talking from personal perspective, not from the perspective of religious ruling. Besides atleast if they get to know muslim guys, atleast they won't we are programmed robots and that the grass isn't greener on the other side. Also, girls back in the very 1st year who wear feminists, now have calmed down after having male friends (just friends, don't take it in another way).

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by anatolian
Its mostly because of the popularity of the white guys rather then non muslim. Western cultural imperialism has succesfully promoted the white race to be more desirable.
So......the solution is to defeat them in war and conquer their lands like in the past?
Reply

RisingLight
02-02-2019, 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
Driving home the point: A non-muslim physician

- - - Updated - - -


I understanding, you're talking about Munafiqs. That is true what you say, but the particulars you mention are quite extreme.

But about the quote, I will sya if you meet a 1000 people online, you would I you've met a LOT of people. But it is not so. And it is abnormals who scream, normal people are dormant.

In my country, highest suscribed YT channel has 74k, highest suscribed Islamic channel has over 2 million. Same with every country. Ex-muslims scream a lot to get attention, and do blasphemy to get back at Islam. But they are losers.

But since my country is 85% muslim, actually a lot of muslim girls date other muslim guys. Sometime ago, I used to be critical, but now looking at how it is in the west, I overlook this telling myself, "Welp, atleast they are both muslims and happy."
Haha,why is everything about statistics to you? You asked earlier whats the % of them dating non muslims now these.Statistics doesnt show anything.
I dont think they are abnormal or extreme.Its just people who dont believe in Islam and are pressured by the society or family to follow it so they act that way.I understand them.Its pretty frustrating to do what you dont want to do always.And yes you are right they arent alot but they are an example that there are many people out there who looks muslim but inside they arent.

How come you live in a country with 85% muslims and you dont know a muslim woman?...
Reply

CuriousonTruth
02-02-2019, 02:54 AM
Originally Posted by ICantBeMuslim
Haha,why is everything about statistics to you? You asked earlier whats the % of them dating non muslims now these.Statistics doesnt show anything.
I dont think they are abnormal or extreme.Its just people who dont believe in Islam and are pressured by the society or family to follow it so they act that way.I understand them.Its pretty frustrating to do what you dont want to do always.And yes you are right they arent alot but they are an example that there are many people out there who looks muslim but inside they arent.

How come you live in a country with 85% muslims and you dont know a muslim woman?...
When I said I don't know, I meant I don't know personally because I was not close enough. The only time I speak to girls is for education reasons.

And I certainly don't talk to them about religion, because girls in my country are relatively secular. So you'd get shut down fast.
Reply

RisingLight
02-02-2019, 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
When I said I don't know, I meant I don't know personally because I was not close enough. The only time I speak to girls is for education reasons.

And I certainly don't talk to them about religion, because girls in my country are relatively secular. So you'd get shut down fast.
I dont wanna pressure you but if you can give me just a small hint who this country is,id appreaciate it.I have an idea but i wanna be sure.
If you dont want its ok,no pressure
Reply

CuriousonTruth
02-02-2019, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by ICantBeMuslim
I dont wanna pressure you but if you can give me just a small hint who this country is,id appreaciate it.I have an idea but i wanna be sure.
If you dont want its ok,no pressure
At this point I'd rather see your guessing skills.
Reply

RisingLight
02-02-2019, 05:24 AM
Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
At this point I'd rather see your guessing skills.
Id say turkey or kazakhstan.Im 95% sure its turkey.I wouldnt say turkey is 85% muslim despite what people think.And islam in turkey is more like a cultural thing than a belief.Also majority of them are very different,like they shave off the beard,celebrate the bday of the prophet saws with dancing and music,etc,do things completely out of islam.I had a lot of connections with turks before so i know a thing or two,and if you are from turkey i can understand why you made this question.
Reply

CuriousonTruth
02-02-2019, 06:15 AM
Originally Posted by ICantBeMuslim
Id say turkey or kazakhstan.Im 95% sure its turkey.I wouldnt say turkey is 85% muslim despite what people think.And islam in turkey is more like a cultural thing than a belief.Also majority of them are very different,like they shave off the beard,celebrate the bday of the prophet saws with dancing and music,etc,do things completely out of islam.I had a lot of connections with turks before so i know a thing or two,and if you are from turkey i can understand why you made this question.
You are wrong. My country is in the Indian subcontinent.
Reply

anatolian
02-02-2019, 07:14 AM
Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth



So......the solution is to defeat them in war and conquer their lands like in the past?
Haha no I dont have any animosity towards any race. We have even muslim brethren from all races of the world. You just asked the truth behind a generalization and I said yes there might be such an aim and its related to racial allure of white people independent from their religion which is a propogated perception and also is effective on both genders not only wonen. There is not a specific “solution” for the marriage part. Everyone decides him/herself whom to marry and if it is Islamically illegal he/she will take the responsibility. The only solution is if there is the sharia rule in the country then it will be illegal in the law too. But there is solution for the western cultural imperialism part. It has several ways. Media is the most effective on that so you can control the media and block if it contains such elements. But at the end of the day it comes to your personel dignity to your religion. Its you who will find solution for yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by *charisma*



While this is true, I don't think it has much to do with physical attraction. If you don't have a sense of self and core beliefs, you're easily persuaded by the ideas around you. There are muslim/hindu marriages in India for example which are absolutely forbidden Islamically for both genders.
Ofcourse, anyway I said mostly not only. This is my analyze.
Reply

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