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john.bob
02-02-2019, 12:04 PM
I am not a Muslim, but I am very interested in it. I hope by getting an answer to this question I will take a step closer to maybe accepting Islam.

I understand that Allah gives everyone a chance to live out our lives on earth to test us, even though he knows full well how everyone will do. This is similar to how a legal system allows a convicted criminal to make an appeal in his defense even though everything may be stacked against. I.e. all the evidence. In the day of judgment Allah will use our lives as evidence against us to prove if we did good or bad. To be just Allah allowed us all to live our lives so Allah doesn't have to say to us on the day of judgement "I knew what you would've done if i gave you a life so you go to hell or heaven,etc."

Instead Allah can say "you had your chance and you failed to prove yourself etc."So suppose we have two people both born in say a Christian family and let's say one is very devout to his religion and the other is more casual and doesn't care much, he just happened to have Christian parents. Like your typical teen they go through school not to concerned yet about religion and reach say the age of 20. Still very young and focused on their sorting their future lives not too serious about religion; as most people are in the west at this age.

Now suppose the less religious person suddenly dies due to an accident, very probable and has occurred to many people in the world. The devout religious person continues his life and eventually converts to Islam at say 35, which he practices until death.

The question is therefore, is it unfair that the first person who died early when he was still developing and didn't get a chance to reach full maturity or reach a standard livelihood to be able to pursue say religion? Even if would have remained say a disbeliever till death, wasn't letting him live on earth their to prove he would have died a disbeliever and to avoid having to say "I knew you would have lived to die a disbeliever anyway".The first person who died can now argue that if I had lived to the same age as person 2 I might have become a Muslim. If Allah was simply going to say to him " I knew you would have lived to die a disbeliever anyway" than why did Allah give him a life on in the first place.

I understand that Allah has said in the Quran that everyone at some point their lives will be introduced or exposed to Islam. But I feel many young people who do are so caught up with problems in their lives and future that they may miss the opportunity to take it seriously. Especially as in this example they may die very young, ignorant of religion having lived a life focused on worldly pleasure. Many Muslim convert's are like this early on and in later life realise they should submit to god and may come across Islam in their search.

Similarly, why does Allah bring children to this world and many die as children/ babies; which we all know implies that they will enter paradise as they were sinless. What is the point of beinging them to this world if Allah never tested them and simply took their lives and gave them automatic paradise. If I had a choice to whether live long and target a high level in paradise (by enduring hardships and tests) or die young and be guranteed paradise regardless of what level I would be in; I would choose to die young; as this would gurantee paradise.

I'm not attacking islam I just want this issue cleared up and would appreciate a kind response from someone who might have the answer.

Thank You
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SintoDinto
02-02-2019, 12:29 PM
as for the issue of predestination, it is a complicated issue addressed by scholars, but as i understand it, God knows because he is outside the bounds of time. or, in the ashari theology, it is like a child who is on his father's shoulders, asking him to carry him up the mountain, or down the mountain, or across the field. likewise, you will the act, but God creates it. in traditionalist theology, dua (supplication) can stop one from going to hell, and i personally believe, like many who are scholars, if one did not know properly about islam, or had something blocking him from accepting islam, such as someone living in the amazon or in a small town or countryside in japan, etc. where there are no muslims, or if one only hears bad thingsabout them, they are in a separate category of people who will be tested after his world. as for those who die as children or babies, it may be part of their families qadr (divine decree) because it benefits them in some unseen way or prevents some greater evil or perhaps the baby going to heaven is a mercy for the child. read the story of khidr and musa (moses, AS) in surat al kahf (chapter 18, the cave): verses 60-82 https://quran.com/18
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john.bob
02-02-2019, 01:00 PM
Firstly, Thank you for a quick answer

Secondly, I have never heard about Allah testing people separately after this life and specifically individuals who were exposed to islam but were to naieve to accept it die to being distracted by worldly issues. Please can you show me a authentic source

Thirdly, many would see that a child dying and being granted paradise as unfair simply because they didn't have any hardship or test but were given automatic paradise. I would rather be guaranteed paradise then have to gamble on taking life's test to earn paradise. The same can be said from the babies point of view. How can God justify his action here; if he truly is Just
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Eric H
02-02-2019, 03:44 PM
Greetings and peace be with you john.bob; and welcome to the forum;

Originally Posted by john.bob
How can God justify his action here; if he truly is Just
People strive to become like the God they worship; if you believe that God is a just God, then you should also strive to become the best example of justice yourself. If people believe that God is a God of vengeance and retribution, then they become the God they worship.

Allah has 99 names or characteristics, you cannot single out one topic like justice, Allah is so much more. His first name is - The Beneficent He who wills goodness and mercy for all His creatures, he is peace, justice righteous, a God of Love,and the God who forgives is mentioned three times. Allah personifies all his names in the greatest good way possible. Here is the link -

https://99namesofallah.name/

In the spirit of searching for the greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
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SidratulMuntah
02-02-2019, 07:35 PM
Very nice to hear from you that you are interested in Islam and
perhaps to become a Muslim. May Allah show you the truth. Ameen!

So, yes, life on earth is a test for the hereafter. And yes, he knows,
how the result of the test will be for anyone. But the test is not for
Allah. The test is for us. It's an evidence for us. Allah could put us
into hell or paradise without testing. But how is that just? Many would complain
and say: why do I have to go to hell, why have I deserved that? But that we
live is our evidence. People live the life and the inhabitants of hell
will know exactly, why they are in hell. They will know, that they deserved
it and no one will complain about Allah's justice.

Allah told us, that after he created Adam, he created all the other souls.
They jumped out of the spine of Adam. We know, that Allah wanted to set
a vicegerald on earth. He wanted Man for that. So he asked the clouds, the mountains,
the earth and us, if we want to become vicegeralds on earth.
All except us refused because they knew they could not bear that burden.
But we all in our arrogance we all did agree to be born on earth as
a human and to get tested with the chance of paradise. Even you and me.

You will say now: no, no one did ask me, I don't remember.
Yes, right, even me, I don't remember. No one does. Allah whiped out that
memory from us, bcz of the test. But in the hereafter we all will remember.

It's like in school. In a test you are not allowed to use the school books.
But as soon as the test is over, you can go home and compare all.

Allah fixed out moment of death already in advance. One earlier, one later.
It is not necessarily an disadvantage to die early of an advantage to
get very old. The one who gets very old gets long time to repent or to collect
lots of good deeds. A person, who died young, maybe did already collect enough
goof deeds. He can't unigene improve himself. As you said, ab young person below
puberty not guilty for his/her sins. Why that child or baby was born although Allah
Knew, it still die early. But I told you. An humans agreed to be born as a
human on earth. And those people will be rewarded.
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*charisma*
02-02-2019, 07:41 PM
Hello @john.bob ,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your question.

Firstly, we must understand that Allah is the best of judges, and the MOST just, more just than you, I, or any of His creations could ever be. He is also the MOST merciful. Who's to say that if a person who did not attain faith or did not know of Islam would not be judged according by that fact. We must leave the judging to Allah because only He knows every event and every action done by each person. I also want to mention that people become Muslims regardless of age, so maturity is really relative to each individual. Secondly, if a person truly has not heard of Islam and died, then Allah will give him a separate test/judgement in the afterlife.

In regards to babies, Allah promised us in the Quran:

And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,
Who, when disaster strikes them, say, "Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to Him we will return."
Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy. And it is those who are the [rightly] guided.
[Quran 2:155-2:157]

If a child dies, it is a test for the parents. The children will also intercede for their parents on the day of judgement.
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Ümit
02-02-2019, 10:42 PM
İ believe we are talking about the people of the wall here. There was a special Arabic word for it...but İ forgot.
They are a group of people who have equally good deeds and bad deeds...exactly balanced out to each other. They did not deserve Paradise but neither did they deserve hell yet....babies small children and mentally disabled people will also be part of this group.
They will be on a high wall between Heaven and Hell...they will see both...and beg Allah to be let into Heaven.
After everyone has entered Heaven or Hell....Allah will look at the people of the wall...He will forgive them because of His mercy....and they would finally be allowed to enter Paradise as the last people.
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SintoDinto
02-02-2019, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by Ümit
İ believe we are talking about the people of the wall here. There was a special Arabic word for it...but İ forgot.
They are a group of people who have equally good deeds and bad deeds...exactly balanced out to each other. They did not deserve Paradise but neither did they deserve hell yet....babies small children and mentally disabled people will also be part of this group.
They will be on a high wall between Heaven and Hell...they will see both...and beg Allah to be let into Heaven.
After everyone has entered Heaven or Hell....Allah will look at the people of the wall...He will forgive them because of His mercy....and they would finally be allowed to enter Paradise as the last people.
that would be known as the heights, or Al Araf, brother
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john.bob
02-03-2019, 12:06 AM
Thank you @SidratulMuntah for your informative answer. I agree that Judgement should be left to god and with everything you pointed out, however in the Quran god makes it clear that only believers enter paradise or individuals in very specific conditions such as tribal groups, etc. In the case I described we are talking about the average young men you can find in most western society. Some (not all) are very naieve pehaps due to their upbringing, social problems, etc. are not to keen to take religion seriously. if they died despite being exposed to Islam (even in detail), should go to hell according to what has been revealed if they were to die in that state. However, I know many muslim converts who accepted islam very late in their life. e.g. 40 and were very ignorant at a young age. Now many of them are very dedicated worshippers. I feel that had they died younger they would be destined for hellfire. Now, if im correct the younger men I mentioned could now argue why did he get to live till he accepted islam and I died before i was even able prove what I would've done had i lived that long.

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@*charisma* thank you for your informed response. So we are correct to assume that the individual who when younger was say distracted by worldly pleasure is exposed to islam, but chooses to ignore the warning and dies like this, could possibly go to paradise. If so I would appreciate an authentice source for this, thank you.

Also, I have never heard of a seperate test in the hearafter for individuals such as the ones I described in my question, can you cite a quote from the quran for this thank you again.

furthermore, can the child intercede for parents if they are disbelievers and save them from hell. if not then why did the child die? is it to give the child free access to paradise? if so how is that fair?

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Since as individuals we asked allah to test us in this world, is it not unfair that some childrens and babies die without getting a chance to prove themselves.

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Since as individuals we asked allah to test us in this world, is it not unfair that some childrens and babies die without getting a chance to prove themselves.

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Since as individuals we asked allah to test us in this world, is it not unfair that some childrens and babies die without getting a chance to prove themselves.
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eesa the kiwi
02-03-2019, 12:24 AM
Not going to comment on the thread at hand just want to say for you to have a look at this site www.islamreligion.com they have a bunch of good articles about Islam and a live chat q&a for you to ask questions

InshaAllah you'll find it beneficial in your search for truth
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*charisma*
02-03-2019, 03:17 AM
Originally Posted by john.bob
@*charisma* thank you for your informed response. So we are correct to assume that the individual who when younger was say distracted by worldly pleasure is exposed to islam, but chooses to ignore the warning and dies like this, could possibly go to paradise. If so I would appreciate an authentice source for this, thank you.
This assumption is incorrect. If a person chooses to reject Islam when the message was given, and instead chooses worldly pleasures, then he is a disbeliever. If he however has never come across the message of Islam, then this is a different matter. Because just as you would identify being Christian, or Atheist, or whatever, it means you have put thought into being identified in this way, so in essence you made your choice of faith as well as rejected other faiths. I think asking questions about where we came from and why we are here are innate questions we ask ourselves at some point in our lives despite the distractions of this world. I don't necessarily believe that anyone who has reached the age of 10 even not to have inquired or reflected about faith and the world around them. But like I said, NO ONE knows the fate of an individual except for Allah, so I could say this and that, but in the end I won't fully know because I'm not the judge of someone's life.

“And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning)” [17:15]

A person who has never heard of Islam or the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and who has never heard the message in its correct and true form, will not be punished by Allaah if he dies in a state of kufr (disbelief). If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection: if he obeys, he will enter Paradise and if he disobeys he will enter Hell. The evidence (daleel) for this is the hadeeth of al-Aswad ibn Saree’, who reported that the Prophet of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are four (who will protest) to Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah (the interval between the time of ‘Eesaa (Jesus, upon whom be peace) and the time of Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)). The deaf man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.’ The insane man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.’ The very old man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’ He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.”

Originally Posted by john.bob
furthermore, can the child intercede for parents if they are disbelievers and save them from hell. if not then why did the child die? is it to give the child free access to paradise? if so how is that fair?
No one can intercede for a disbeliever (as far as I know). Like I said the death of children is a test for the people, just like any other ailment or tragedy that happens in the world. Every soul belongs to Allah solely, to Him we belong, and to Him we will return whether we are only a few seconds old or 120 years old.

Originally Posted by john.bob
Since as individuals we asked allah to test us in this world, is it not unfair that some childrens and babies die without getting a chance to prove themselves.
To prove themselves as what?? Allah already knows what they would have become. And depending on the children of disbelievers, their judgement is also with Allah in the end. For you, what is fair and unfair is relative and bound only to your experiences and knowledge. It does not go beyond that. So what you believe to be fair can very well not be so.

Originally Posted by john.bob
Thirdly, many would see that a child dying and being granted paradise as unfair simply because they didn't have any hardship or test but were given automatic paradise. I would rather be guaranteed paradise then have to gamble on taking life's test to earn paradise. The same can be said from the babies point of view. How can God justify his action here; if he truly is Just
There's nothing concrete that describes what will actually happen to children when they pass if they belonged to disbelieving families, so I won't dwell nor speculate about it. I'd rather not say something incorrectly, and it's not really my concern since they are now with their Lord.
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Eric H
02-03-2019, 08:10 AM
Greetings and peace be with you john.bob;

I feel that had they died younger they would be destined for hellfire.
Suppose someone is responsible for the death of your child; they were bought before the judge; and the overwhelming evidence showed they were guilty.

If it was within your power; would you want to see them punished so justice would happen? Could you possibly forgive them and show them mercy and let them walk away with some minor punishment; or no punishment at all?

What is more important to you, justice with punishment, forgiveness, or mercy?

How do you think your feelings are compared to Allah; whose first name is 'The Beneficent He who wills goodness and mercy for all His creatures'

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
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john.bob
02-03-2019, 10:00 AM
@*charisma* I appreciate the detailed answer, which I fully agree with. My question is concerning young adults who are capable of sinning and understanding. e.g. the average 18yr old human. I'm not sure where you live but I live in the UK and most people (not all) around this age are very reluctant to care about religion no matter how seriously you talk to them about this. They will either just talk it off and forget about it or just argue with you to simply just make you give up, they are usually concerned more with studies, socializing or pursuing their future careers, etc.. Many of my work colleagues are converts who were very similar to what I described just now in their younger days, and as a result they found Islam later in their lives. e.g. 40 for what reason I'm not too sure. This then begs the question disbelievers that die young e.g. at 18 could feel cheated out because they were not allowed to live long as say one of my Muslim convert colleagues to be able to potentially accept Islam. I know that maybe they would have died a disbeliever even if they were given longer too live, however; wasn't giving everyone a chance in this world to allow them to prove them selves.

God knows the final outcome but let Humans live on earth to allow us a chance to show evidence that we can follow the teachings. The example I just mentioned is equivalent to God saying "I let you all live so you can prove your obedience, even though I know the outcome". Then when God takes the life of a young disbeliever and just says "Even if you lived a long life, you were destined to remain a disbeliever", whilst letting another disbeliever live longer; who happens to later accept Islam. In response the young disbeliever can argue 'If you are simply going to just say to me that I would've died a disbeliever; then why give me a life on this planet in the first place; instead why not just chuck me in hellfire in the first place'. It is very similar to giving an exam to everyone, but some are given longer to complete it and others less.

Furthermore, I understand everyone of us asked God to give us this test of life in this world; of which we have no memory off. This then brings to question why do babies die and not get the chance to undergo this test; even though like all of us they also requested to be tested in this life. How is it fair to allow some to take the test and others not to? God arbitrarily selects people who live long to be able to endure the test of this world; whilst taking the lives of some at young age (even though they asked like me and you to take this life's test). Babies are human just like us is it not unfair that God just casually discards their lives to use them as test tools for other people, where was their choice in this.

I understand that Justice to my understanding is limited, but I can clearly see based on my knowledge injustice in how people are tested.
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azc
02-03-2019, 11:20 AM
@john.bob

When someone reaches puberty he is considered as an adult. What he does onwards whether good or bad deeds is fully responsible for all his sayings and doings. Allah :swt: has given him brain to distinguish what is right and what is wrong for him. When he is capable enough to take all his decisions even without consulting his own parents, he will have to ponder over his afterlife as well.

It's not necessary that when a person reaches 40 years or so, he converts to Islam, if it were true then most of the people of this age would be Muslims but reality is otherwise.

Fyi we have several young age (15 yrs to 20 yrs) reverts on this forum.

Now I ask you whether or not you want to protect yourself from everlasting hell fire...?
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urkahnkhan
02-03-2019, 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by john.bob
Thank you @SidratulMuntah for your informative answer. I agree that Judgement should be left to god and with everything you pointed out, however in the Quran god makes it clear that only believers enter paradise or individuals in very specific conditions such as tribal groups, etc. In the case I described we are talking about the average young men you can find in most western society. Some (not all) are very naieve pehaps due to their upbringing, social problems, etc. are not to keen to take religion seriously. if they died despite being exposed to Islam (even in detail), should go to hell according to what has been revealed if they were to die in that state. However, I know many muslim converts who accepted islam very late in their life. e.g. 40 and were very ignorant at a young age. Now many of them are very dedicated worshippers. I feel that had they died younger they would be destined for hellfire. Now, if im correct the younger men I mentioned could now argue why did he get to live till he accepted islam and I died before i was even able prove what I would've done had i lived that long.

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@*charisma* thank you for your informed response. So we are correct to assume that the individual who when younger was say distracted by worldly pleasure is exposed to islam, but chooses to ignore the warning and dies like this, could possibly go to paradise. If so I would appreciate an authentice source for this, thank you.

Also, I have never heard of a seperate test in the hearafter for individuals such as the ones I described in my question, can you cite a quote from the quran for this thank you again.

furthermore, can the child intercede for parents if they are disbelievers and save them from hell. if not then why did the child die? is it to give the child free access to paradise? if so how is that fair?

- - - Updated - - -

Since as individuals we asked allah to test us in this world, is it not unfair that some childrens and babies die without getting a chance to prove themselves.

- - - Updated - - -

Since as individuals we asked allah to test us in this world, is it not unfair that some childrens and babies die without getting a chance to prove themselves.

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Since as individuals we asked allah to test us in this world, is it not unfair that some childrens and babies die without getting a chance to prove themselves.
You have very good questions to be honest and I will try to do my best to answer them accordingly.

It is true alot of the youth in the western society are naive but it dosen't mean that they have lower chance of entering paradise? The chances are equal even tho they might be born as non-believers they have equal chance with the one born in a muslim household. Because nobody can follow the right path except divine guidance and Allah guides people whom he finds good in their hearts and whomever he wills and it dosen't matter which part of the world or society they are from and hack they might even be living under the ocean if Allah finds any good in them he will guide them and this is a guraantee and this is how some people gain Allah's guidance and find his path despite being non-believers or being previously wicked it dosen't matter but what matters is what is in their hearts that is the most important thing and Allah says that if he found any good in someones heart that he will guide them.

So if someone gains Allah's guidance at the age of 40 or 18 it's the same for Allah he knew of these people before he granted them guidance and have appointed that specific timing. He lets some to enjoy themselves first and grant them guidance in their 40s while with others he grants them guidance earlier because they will find pleasure in that environment.

As for these who die in young age. Allah already knows if they were alive what choices they would have made in life but it could be that due to something in their choices that he granted them mercy and taken them in early stage. I reckon these infants would have had good in their hearts hence Allah has granted them mercy and spared them because he knew of their choices as adult. This is indeed without doubt the mercy of Allah. So it's not unfair that these kids are spared from hell-fire.

Allah had never forgotten about you individually and know about your resting place and your situation all along and if he finds any good within your heart he will guide you to the right path. Giving you ''Hidayah'' which means divine guidance and divine guidance comes to specific people and it dosen't mean just because you are born in muslim household you will be granted this no not at all. I have personally witnessed multiple of western people gain the ultimate ''Divine guidance'' despite them being born in a corrupt society and way of life but Allah saved these people because they were his beloved people and because they had ''GOOD HEARTS'' and Allah knew of this hence ''Divine guidance'' was deserved for them.

Having good heart dosen't have anything to do with being gentle or what not. Allah grants even a beautiful guidance to criminals, and people who are in jail, alcoholics, thieves and people you would not except to have anything good within them but Allah sees good in their hearts to guide them. I have even seen ultra alt-right people gain an ultimate and beautiful guidance from Allah(Swt)
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john.bob
02-03-2019, 12:06 PM
@azc Thank you for your input, I understand and agree with what you are saying, but if we are held accountable from puberty than those that live longer have the advantage to grasp the correct path; whilst those that die few years after it. As I have said in my example many converts; would have died as disbelievers should they have died 10 years younger (while still past their puberty). Surely, this is not justice.

@urakhankhan Thank you as well for your answer, I agree people are guided by god and accept the correct path that way. However, I find that If God was to guide someone to Islam and made them accept it at say 40 and then he let another disbeliever die at a young age e.g. 19, wouldn't it be unfair because the 19 year old could easily argue to God if you had taken the life of the 40 year old man at 19 he would have died the same as me. Here God could argue that even if the 19 year old man did reach 40 he would have not been guided. But in response the 19 year old can say, if I am not gonna be given the same amount of time as the 40 year old man than why bother create me and give me chance to live to 19 for. It seems pointless to give him a chance if God was ultimately going to say I know your outcome and so I decided to end it at 19 for no real reason. In such a case God should have said to Humanity I know your outcome if I let you live in earth; and so I will send you to paradise or hell based on this knowledge.

Furthermore, I understand everyone of us asked God to give us this test of life in this world; of which we have no memory off. This then brings to question why do babies die and not get the chance to undergo this test; even though like all of us they also requested to be tested in this life. How is it fair to allow some to take the test and others not to? God arbitrarily selects people who live long to be able to endure the test of this world; whilst taking the lives of some at young age (even though they asked like me and you to take this life's test). Babies are human just like us is it not unfair that God just casually discards their lives to use them as test tools for other people, where was their choice in this.

I appreciate the kind responses from everyone, in other live chats, question forums and such I am attacked with anger usually. Thank You all for that.
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azc
02-03-2019, 12:49 PM
@john.bob :

btw, what is your age...?
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john.bob
02-03-2019, 01:00 PM
@azc I would rather not disclose my age, Thank You
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azc
02-03-2019, 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by john.bob
@azc I would rather not disclose my age, Thank You
So you have come here for trolling.......
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john.bob
02-03-2019, 01:16 PM
@azc please don't dismiss this question as trolling, I don't want to be rude, but if you don't have an answer then please ignore this question and leave this post. I genuinely wish to find an answer, but nobody seems to have a concrete answer to this question. They usually answer part of my question and have holes in them. Likewise, I don't understand how my question is trolling at all, so please explain why I am a troll for asking this?
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MazharShafiq
02-03-2019, 03:58 PM
personally if I had a choice of when to be taken away, I would have chosen a time in my childhood when I was considered an innocent child or even a baby because at this time I do not have sins and so will be granted Jannah. We all will have to die one day and that is for sure so a younger age would be better than going through the pain of trails.
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Nájlá
02-03-2019, 03:58 PM
Hello John,

You keep repeating that it is unfair for an 18 year old to die young as a disbeliever. Yet we have children as young as 12 convert and become Muslim. Can you explain that?

The truth is everyone will be exposed to Islam and have a moment of reflection, regardless of how much people are ignorant towards religion.
The dying young could be a Mercy from Allah from someone who would have lived 70 years and strongly refused Islam. There are 7 doors to hell, although the quran tells us disbelievers would remain in hell forever. The quran talks about those disbelievers who reminders came to them and who strongly refused. No one on the day of judgement will be able to say Allah was unfair. Rather they will say we now know we was wrong return us o Allah so we can make a change.

We are not to say who will go heaven or who will go to hell. But Allah does not treat any of his creation unfairly. Allah knows what is in each heart and who anyone would end up. There are Muslims who could be practising all their lives and end up being disbelievers at their death bed. Allah knows who is of worthy of his mercy.

There are many things that are within the unseen. Our small brains can't figure it out. Some things Allah did not make clear to us, even in the quran. The letters Alif Lam Meem, only Allah knows what they mean. No one can tell us exactly what these letters refer to or what they mean.

What we have John is BELIEF, just like a small child who trust and believes their mother even though this mother is full of wrong. Except with us our God is not full of wrong, He is the Knowing, the Wise, the Powerful, the Just.

Now tell me, you are among those who Allah gave you reminders about Islam, He exposed the truth to you. Can you argue and say I didn't think you was Just? I doubt that would even cross your mind on the day of judgement. Now you have a choice.

Also to ADD:
While yes I would have rather died as a child and be granted Paradise, but only Allah knows who is worthy of this Mercy. Maybe I was not worthy of it? Or maybe Allah granted me to live longer and face tests and trials to gain a higher level in paradise. Or Maybe Allah did not want to test my parents with this test? (They already lost two infants). Again this goes to the most Knowing, we are not to question. Rather we are to trust and belief and obey.


(May Allah forgive me if I have said anything wrong)
Reply

john.bob
02-03-2019, 08:15 PM
@Nájlá

I understand what you are talking about and please don't take what I say as me being disrespectful, as I certainly don't mean it to be viewed as such. In regards to your points I have few remarks to make:

Firstly, Just because some 12 year old can accept and convert to Islam doesn't mean everyone can do the same. e.g. as I have said many of my colleagues were ignorant of Islam at a young age and accepted at late age. I am merely stating that God is fair in most context, but in some context such as the test of life God is obviously unfair (or so I am led to believe based on everything I have read about and talked about). I am specifically showing in once such example using the 18 year old as an demonstration as to how God has created a system that is unfair as it favors some individuals over others. If you read in my previous posts I explain the scenario clearly. I would like some one to explain how this is fair?

Secondly, Yes God works in a way Humans can't understand and maybe God is fair, but based on everything we are revealed and shown; we are correct to assume God is unfair. If God didn't want that than I believe God should have created a fair test or revealed the answer to my question in the Quran.

Thirdly, Maybe God is guiding me; hence I am here seeking answers. I truly believe that their is an answer but I can't accept to just say "God is correct and will prove it to me in the hereafter", this is because if I apply the same principle to say Christianity one could argue "Trinity will make sense to you once Jesus meets you in the afterlife". Islam is a religion of logic and we can apply logic to make sense of everything God has revealed.

Finally in regards to dying as a child, the Issues isn't whether what you or I want; but rather God should make it fair so that everyone should feel as though they have equal chance succeeding in this test. Likewise, we should consider the perspective of the child; as they like us asked God to send us to this world to be tested. If they die as soon as they are born or young; they didn't get the same opportunity as say some one that lived to 80 for example. Just like the 80 year old for example the baby also asked to take this test; but was not allowed to. Please explain how that is fair?

I would appreciate it if someone takes the time to address each point without taking my examples too literally.
Reply

Eric H
02-03-2019, 08:55 PM
Greetings and peace be with you john.bob;

but in some context such as the test of life God is obviously unfair
Do you have the knowledge and power to create the universe and life? How can you possibly have the knowledge to make judgements on your creator?

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
Reply

SidratulMuntah
02-03-2019, 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by john.bob
. I feel that had they died younger they would be destined for hellfire. Now, if im correct the younger men I mentioned could now argue why did he get to live till he accepted islam and I died before i was even able prove what I would've done had i lived that long.
You talk a little bit weird. Allah determines the day of death in advance. When it's written, that Patrick will die in the age of 75 and accept Islam with 40, that Patrick will not die with 25. So it is nonsense to argue like that: but if he would have died earlier, he would have gone to hell. That argument is not logic, because his death was fixed to 75, so Allah will not allow, that this man will die earlier. No one is destined for hell. We have a free will. That would be nonsense to have a free will, when it would be programmed to go to hell. That wouldn't be fair. That's not just.
Allah wrote down the future of all humans in advance, before creation. He wrote, what they will do, because he knows the future. He wrote, because they will do. Not he wrote something and it will happen like that. That would be preprogramming like a robot.

You have to realize, that getting old is a gift. To get old is not your right. You cannot rely on that. You have no claim for that.

A long life is not a guarantee for accepting Islam. Accepting Islam is not connected to any age. Even someone, who will die with 21 can accept Islam before that time.
But if that person did really never hear of Islam, he is not to blame. He will get a second test in the hereafter. Allah said clearly in the Quran, that he never punished before he did send a warner.

A person dies young, that can have two main reasons: he collected already enough good deeds at that age and nothing could make him better. Or Allah, as he knows the future, knew, that this person will never accept Islam, even if he lived for 200 years. Allah knows the unseen, the future. He knows, if someone would accept Islam, if he let him get 90 years old. If Allah saw this, he won't let him die with 15. Do you understand that. A person cannot argue like that: why did not you let me live longer to find out about Islam.... Allah knew in advance, that that person would not have accepted Islam, when he would have let him live longer. We don't know, what we would have done in future, but Allah knows. The test is for us, not for God.
Reply

john.bob
02-03-2019, 11:58 PM
@SidratulMuntah thank you again for another detailed answer, however I have some issues with your answer.

Firstly, you claim that if someone died early in life e.g. 19 And if they claimed to God "why didn't you let me live long as this man x who converted to Islam at y age". God could reply "I knew you would have died a sinner so it doesn't matter how long you live". This then means why bother letting him live to 19 if your just gonna send him to hell any way. God couldv'e just said to him before sending him to this test that he would fail and send him to hellfire. In which case making that Individual was pointless.

Secondly, please don't take my examples literally. I'm not arguing that at a young age such as 18,19,20, etc. it is impossible to become a dedicated Muslim. I am merely saying in general the western society has youngsters that are too distracted or uninterested in religion. Which has led to many converting late in life.

Thirdly, I understand we have free will and that God simply wrote down what choices make etc. They are not Gods control over us. Does this imply that if I were to commit suicide I controlled when I died and not God. I understand this is slightly off topic from my main question but I would appreciate an answer.

Also if you don't mind I would also like an answer to my question regarding deaths of young sinless children/babies. I have asked it in detail in previous posts.
Reply

*charisma*
02-04-2019, 01:04 AM
Originally Posted by john.bob
Also if you don't mind I would also like an answer to my question regarding deaths of young sinless children/babies. I have asked it in detail in previous posts.
We have answered your question regarding this. Their judgement is with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and no one knows of anyone's fate except for Him.


Originally Posted by john.bob
Firstly, you claim that if someone died early in life e.g. 19 And if they claimed to God "why didn't you let me live long as this man x who converted to Islam at y age". God could reply "I knew you would have died a sinner so it doesn't matter how long you live". This then means why bother letting him live to 19 if your just gonna send him to hell any way. God couldv'e just said to him before sending him to this test that he would fail and send him to hellfire. In which case making that Individual was pointless.
Everyone was created solely to worship Allah. That is why you are created. You are not created to be placed in paradise or hell, rather that is what you are given based on your deeds/the result of your worship (or lack thereof). So your question on why bother creating someone if he is going to go to hell anyway, it is because he was created to worship Allah, and SINCE HE FAILED TO DO SO, he goes to hell. Your soul chose to take this test, you were given the chance to prove that you will worship Allah, so if you CHOSE this, then it is YOUR fault that you did not put in the effort to seek guidance and failed to worship Allah. I think that's pretty fair. You also shouldn't compare anyone's life to someone else's. Some people live until they are only 12 and they have went through more than what some 50 year olds have been through, so age is really JUST a number relative to the events that happen in one's life. And I'm sorry but I don't believe anyone who is 18 doesn't think about religion or their life. Sure they are distracted, but they think about it, they just don't care and are lazy and want to run after their desires. Allah sends us signs all the time and death happens all around us. There really is no excuse for anyone not to learn if they are sound of mind unless they themselves refuse to do it.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by john.bob
Finally in regards to dying as a child, the Issues isn't whether what you or I want; but rather God should make it fair so that everyone should feel as though they have equal chance succeeding in this test. Likewise, we should consider the perspective of the child; as they like us asked God to send us to this world to be tested. If they die as soon as they are born or young; they didn't get the same opportunity as say some one that lived to 80 for example. Just like the 80 year old for example the baby also asked to take this test; but was not allowed to. Please explain how that is fair?
Accepting Allah's decree is one of our tests, and after that baby dies, you don't know their fate so you can't really say what is unfair since our soul doesn't necessarily die, we are just taken from this world.
Reply

Ümit
02-04-2019, 06:48 AM
@john.bob
You think that the person who converted to İslaam is a good thing? That he deserves a medal? NO. What he did was wrong. He should have believed in Allah right away when he first heart about it. İf he goes to heaven than only because Allahs mercy.

Besides no one gets a heavier burden than they can carry. İf person x was destined to die at age 20....then it was expected that he could have believed if he wanted...he just did not want that.

The game rules are the same for everyone...no one knows when he dies...no one has the guarantee to die at old age....you should believe before your death....and living you entire life as a sinner and converting at the last second is NOT a good thing.
Reply

SidratulMuntah
02-04-2019, 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by john.bob
This then means why bother letting him live to 19 if your just gonna send him to hell any way. God couldv'e just said to him before sending him to this test that he would fail and send him to hellfire. In which case making that Individual was pointless.
Look, I told you already, that it is a test for us. We undergo the exam. God does not undergo the test. Yes, God can tell that in advance to a person, let´s call him Tom, that he will go to hell, and he could put him instantly to hell, but that moment Allah is not just. Tom could say: Why do you put me into hell? No, I wont be a sinner, I wont be bad. I have no evidence for that. But Allah is just. He lets us live the life, our life is our evidence. When we lived it, we will know, what we did. We will see, how many times we did sin. We will know, when we go to hell, why we go to hell. Allah said that already, that none will complain against his justice, because the inhabitants of hell will know, that they deserved it. Allah sends no one to hell, who did not deserve it. Are you more just, more gracious and more smart than Allah? Too, I told you already, that every soul agreed after it was created, that it want to be born on earth as a human and to be tested with the chance of paradise. Out of you, Satan is speaking. You turn around like a snake. If someone explaines to you things, you again start debating the same things from the beginning again. The problem is, you dont want to believe and you will find excuses again and again. You will say: yes, you are right, BUT... or yes, I understand, BUT...
Look, when the soul of Tom agreed to be born as a human on earth and to be tested, God, who is absolute just, will not suddenly say: You go to hell instantly now, I see, that you will be so and so. No, he will let him live. They did not made a contract about, how long will that life be. And when the test is about living just 15 years and die, so it is like that. The person, who died early without doing any sin, he/ she will be rewarded for that in the hereafter. This behaviour of always saying: but if this had happened, but if that had happend, it is from Satan. It will lead you astray.
Allah revealed to us, what he wanted us to know. We dont know every single wisdom behind the things he does. I can just guess or suspect. But suspicions bring nothing. If we knew all wisdom behind his steps, we would be God.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by john.bob

Thirdly, I understand we have free will and that God simply wrote down what choices make etc. They are not Gods control over us. Does this imply that if I were to commit suicide I controlled when I died and not God. I understand this is slightly off topic from my main question but I would appreciate an answer.
No, you did not control your suicide. Nothing happens without God´s permission. Every single step of our free will would not happen without his permission. But for the sake of the free will, God allowed evil.
If you really would have planned suicide on 1st december 2021, for example, so when Allah saw your future in advance, he knew you will commit suicide on that 01-12-2021. So to not intervene into your free will, what would be unjust, because he guaranteed it to us without any condition, he fixed your day of death in your destiny to that particular day.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by john.bob
Also if you don't mind I would also like an answer to my question regarding deaths of young sinless children/babies. I have asked it in detail in previous posts.
I am new to that board. I don´t know all your previous posts.

Babies and children under the puberty their sins will not be written. And sure, a newborn can´t have any sin.

If these babies and children die/die young, they will be rewarded for that in the hereafter. You are rigth, they did not commit any sin.
They still did not undergo the test. But they are a test for others, how others deal with that loss: the parents, the family, the society.

These babies, children will go to paradise. They are together with Abraham in one of the seven heavens and play with him. They wait there to be
later re-united with their parents in paradise.

Allah said that in the Quran:

"And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient..." (Quran 2:155)
Reply

john.bob
02-04-2019, 11:24 AM
@Umit Firstly people that convert didn't get the choice to be Muslim when they were born and will naturally be hesitant to accept something that challenges their beliefs they have practiced since childhood.

Also, we know that Humans have free will and therefore are in control of their lives. Many people commit suicide due to pressure in their life exceeding that which they can withstand. This proves that they have been burdened far beyond their capabilities.

If we do not know when we will die, it is impossible to convert in the last minute; since we do not know when our last minute will be. Also Many converts are very dedicated and will go to extreme lengths to fulfill the five pillars and regret their childhood as a disbeliever.
@SidratulMuntah I never claimed that God is undergoing the test, I know humans are the ones being tested. I agree with your example of Tom but lets now say that Bob who is very similar to Tom and is a disbeliever but he accepts Islam at the age of 38. Now this is an issue because Tom didn't get to live to the same age to potentially accept Islam, though probably wouldn't have converted. But Didn't God make this test so that their can be evidence that this disbeliever would have stayed a disbeliever no matter how long he lives. I feel God simply end his test abruptly, whilst other disbelievers die at 80, 90, etc. How is that fair? If we are given the same exam we should be given the same time to complete it, so that nobody has complaints at the end or feel cheated.

You also claim that we have free will, but we do not control if we commit suicide; this contradicts because for example some one was to hang themselves, is it the action God that hanged him or was it the control of the individual being hanged. If it is under Gods control then the individual does not have free will, but if the individual did commit suicide under hos own control; then he has clearly been give burden beyond his capability and therefore took his own life to relieve himself without Gods influence. i.e. if he had lived any longer he would be under increasing burden.

Also your answer to the points about babies dying, clearly states that babies are more favored to enter paradise without hardship; whilst us adults will have to suffer to potentially even miss paradise. How is that fair. Likewise, didn't the baby ask to be tested like us; how comes his request was ignored and instead taken early. How is that fair?

Please don't say that Satan is speaking out of me, just because I am seeking to accept islam. Clearly, Satan wouldn't want that. I am merely applying logic to prove your and everyone else's answers wrong; as they fail to satisfy what I am looking for. They seem to always leave me with more questions than answers.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by *charisma*
We have answered your question regarding this. Their judgement is with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and no one knows of anyone's fate except for Him.
You have not answered my question, you are simply saying that you do not know and that we should just believe in Allah. This is not a logical answer as belief could imply any religion is correct, we should apply logic so that it makes sense to anyone. Based on what is revealed and what we know, we are free to make assumptions; which we can't be held accountable for as God did not reveal the answer to us.

Originally Posted by *charisma*
Everyone was created solely to worship Allah. That is why you are created. You are not created to be placed in paradise or hell, rather that is what you are given based on your deeds/the result of your worship (or lack thereof). So your question on why bother creating someone if he is going to go to hell anyway, it is because he was created to worship Allah, and SINCE HE FAILED TO DO SO, he goes to hell. Your soul chose to take this test, you were given the chance to prove that you will worship Allah, so if you CHOSE this, then it is YOUR fault that you did not put in the effort to seek guidance and failed to worship Allah. I think that's pretty fair. You also shouldn't compare anyone's life to someone else's. Some people live until they are only 12 and they have went through more than what some 50 year olds have been through, so age is really JUST a number relative to the events that happen in one's life. And I'm sorry but I don't believe anyone who is 18 doesn't think about religion or their life. Sure they are distracted, but they think about it, they just don't care and are lazy and want to run after their desires. Allah sends us signs all the time and death happens all around us. There really is no excuse for anyone not to learn if they are sound of mind unless they themselves refuse to do it.
Yes I understand God created everyone to worship God, but why did an individual get created to take a test that he isn't given the opportunity to complete whilst others are. I fail to see how your point above relates to my question which is that:

So suppose we have two people both born in say a Christian family and let's say one is very devout to his religion and the other is more casual and doesn't care much, he just happened to have Christian parents. Like your typical teen they go through school not to concerned yet about religion and reach say the age of 20. Still very young and focused on their sorting their future lives not too serious about religion; as most people are in the west at this age.Suppose the less religious person suddenly dies due to an accident, very probable and has occurred to many people in the world. The devout religious person continues his life and eventually converts to Islam at say 35, which he practices until death.The question is therefore, is it unfair that the first person who died early when he was still developing and didn't get a chance to reach full maturity or reach a standard livelihood to be able to pursue say religion? Even if would have remained say a disbeliever till death, wasn't letting him live on earth their to prove he would have died a disbeliever and to avoid having to say "I knew you would have lived to die a disbeliever anyway".The first person who died can now argue that if I had lived to the same age as person 2 I might have become a Muslim. If Allah was simply going to say to him " I knew you would have lived to die a disbeliever anyway" than why did Allah give him a life on in the first place.Please come to the Uk and go to any street and find any 18, 19, 20, etc. young person and try to convert them to Islam and see how seriously they take it. Some mayconvert but most will not take you seriously/ ignore you. However, I know Muslim converts who admitted that they were very ignorant at 20 and became devout mulims later on in their lives. They have even admitted that they feel blessed to have lived to accept Islam and that they expressed sadness those younger ones that die before accepting Islam.


Originally Posted by *charisma*
Accepting Allah's decree is one of our tests, and after that baby dies, you don't know their fate so you can't really say what is unfair since our soul doesn't necessarily die, we are just taken from this world.
@SidratulMuntah pointed out that babies/ sinless children do go to paradise automatically; which contradicts with what you say; as we do know what happens to young sinless children after death. This than relates to my question of fairness from the perspective of the child who asked to take the test but was instead used as a tool to be a test for their parents. How is that fair? Likewise, many people would prefer to die young and go to paradise for free, for example the 18/ 20 year old homeless individual living in war torn countries; who may possibly go to hell for not fulfilling their obligations as muslims. e.g. 5 daily salat, ramadan, lack of faith due to struggles, etc.
Reply

azc
02-04-2019, 03:51 PM
@john.bob :

Your lamenting for the children who died in childhood or in their teens.
According to you, generally, the person who reaches 40 yrs or more can accept Islam as he is now matured enough, like your colleges who are 40 yrs or so, have accepted Islam. It means your age is more or less 40 yrs and this age is the criteria for accepting Islam, THEN WHY HAVE YOU NOT ACCEPTED ISLAM YET.???

Or

You want all those children who died before becoming adult should be revived first, then you will accept Islam...?
Reply

*charisma*
02-04-2019, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by john.bob
You have not answered my question, you are simply saying that you do not know and that we should just believe in Allah. This is not a logical answer as belief could imply any religion is correct, we should apply logic so that it makes sense to anyone. Based on what is revealed and what we know, we are free to make assumptions; which we can't be held accountable for as God did not reveal the answer to us.
Well, I already believe. It's you who doesn't, so to me this is a very logical answer because no matter WHAT you believe, eventually the soul returns to it's creator. What happens after that is no one's concern.


Originally Posted by john.bob
Yes I understand God created everyone to worship God, but why did an individual get created to take a test that he isn't given the opportunity to complete whilst others are. I fail to see how your point above relates to my question which is that:
Every second of your life is a part of the test, is it not? Have you never heard of "Live every day as if its your last" or "Time goes by in the blink of an eye" or "life's short." When you're created you are NOT PROMISED a long life, what you are promised is a death that can occur at anytime, even if it is in the womb. You also assume that the death of the self is the death of the soul, or that our test is completed at the time of death. Neither of these are true. You are tested even after your death, such as in the grave.

"Everyone shall taste death. And only on the Day of Resurrection shall you be paid your wages in full. And whoever is removed away from the fire and admitted to Paradise, he indeed is successful. The life of this world is only the enjoyment of deception (a deceiving thing)." (3:185)

Originally Posted by john.bob
Even if would have remained say a disbeliever till death, wasn't letting him live on earth their to prove he would have died a disbeliever and to avoid having to say "I knew you would have lived to die a disbeliever anyway".The first person who died can now argue that if I had lived to the same age as person 2 I might have become a Muslim. If Allah was simply going to say to him " I knew you would have lived to die a disbeliever anyway" than why did Allah give him a life on in the first place.Please come to the Uk and go to any street and find any 18, 19, 20, etc. young person and try to convert them to Islam and see how seriously they take it. Some mayconvert but most will not take you seriously/ ignore you. However, I know Muslim converts who admitted that they were very ignorant at 20 and became devout mulims later on in their lives. They have even admitted that they feel blessed to have lived to accept Islam and that they expressed sadness those younger ones that die before accepting Islam.
It is fair because Allah warns us of death multiple times in the Quran. Not only in the Quran, but in every religion we are promised death, and even if you do not believe in religion, you know that death is inevitable and can happen at any time. So if you are not preparing yourself for the inevitable when you KNOW without a doubt that this can happen, whose fault is that? If I told you nothing except that you will die, what are you going to do? Tomorrow is not promised, but you and everyone else on this earth knows that. Is it fair if you die tonight while someone else dies tomorrow? Yes, because you are both given death regardless of how far apart it is and you are tested with how you used that time. What you do during the time of your birth until your death is YOUR responsibility and it comes back to you. What matters here is how you use the time you are given, not how much time is given. How much time is irrelevant because we are all appointed different times. And again Allah accounts EVERY thing in your life.

Your argument to begin with is also flawed. Your argument is that ok maybe with a bit more time, we gain more experience, and we realize the error in our ways and become Muslim, but we are not given that chance if our lives are cut short. Well I can argue that it's not fair that you are comparing a shorter life to someone with a longer life. There are young adults who die as Muslims and some who die as nonMuslims. Why do you not compare an 18 year old revert who has died to an 18 year old disbeliever who has died? That is a more fair assessment that we could make. Likewise there are examples of people living to over a hundred and dying as nonMuslims with all the time they've had they choose not to accept Islam, WHY is that?? Who would best be able to answer that? So I think it's fair to say TIME is not an indicator of WHY a person converts. If you want to pin individual against individual, then we have to take into account the entire life of that individual as to why they did/did not become Muslim, what signs were sent to them, the influences they've had in their lives, their capacity of understanding etc.

ANd to answer your second question about WHY be created if you are going to die a disbeliever, well you are not created to die as a disbeliever. You are created to worship Allah and die as a believer if you are SUCCESSFUL but you chose to live your life as a disbeliever and death happened to reach you. You can't blame Allah for that because well here you are a disbeliever, and you are willing to stay that way until tomorrow even though tomorrow is not promised to you. Why is that? :)
Reply

Insaanah
02-04-2019, 09:52 PM
John.bob, a belated welcome to the forum,
I appreciate the subject of this thread, but may I ask, to put the subject of the thread into context, roughly how much you know generally about Islam? Eg have you read a translation of the Qur’ān, do you anything about prophet Muhammad may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him, or the five pillars of Islam etc? Or at the moment are you learning about Allah first and don’t know too much about the other things mentioned, about which you’ll go onto afterwards?
Reply

john.bob
02-04-2019, 11:37 PM
@azc please understand the whole purpose of my question is too clear my doubts, in hopes of accepting Islam one day. I would much rather prefer you comment here to answer my question than to come here attacking me.
@*charisma* I understand what you are saying, so in theory the 20 year old in my example should go to hell for ignoring the warnings and Islams teachings. Then what if the young men questions to God why didn't you let me live long as the other individual who accepted Islam at a later age, who was exactly like the 20 year old when the convert was younger.

I understand time is not always the indicator for someone to achieve the correct path in life e.g. 12 year old converts., but in this very plausible and real life example it just so happens to be the case that an individual who was astray was guided later in life. This then implicates that younger people can feel cheated out, especially as this was supposed to be their chance to prove themselves (of course god already knows the outcome). God should have let them live to the same age or beyond to make it fairer. Although this may not be a solution, it would certainly eliminate the issue I highlighted.
@Insaanah greetings to you too, I have read alot about Islam and find it fascinating and very logical. I have few tiny issues that I am seeking answers to, hence I am here.
Reply

*charisma*
02-05-2019, 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by john.bob
@*charisma* I understand what you are saying, so in theory the 20 year old in my example should go to hell for ignoring the warnings and Islams teachings. Then what if the young men questions to God why didn't you let me live long as the other individual who accepted Islam at a later age, who was exactly like the 20 year old when the convert was younger.
Your life is not the other guy's life. Why didn't you accept Islam like the younger guy? You're fixated on age when it makes no difference. Also no one's life is exactly the same as another's. We all face different experiences. Oh and if you died before someone else, then you won't be able to have an argument as you were not a witness to that person's life since you died before him. Which is why we can only worry about our own souls rather than to compare to someone else's.

Originally Posted by john.bob
God should have let them live to the same age or beyond to make it fairer. Although this may not be a solution, it would certainly eliminate the issue I highlighted.
You know this made me think of how two best friends can grow apart and change as they grow up. So imagine two friends, same age and upbringing, except at some point one of them starts to make different choices and steers away on a different path. Because of one's choices, he may die sooner. You can't blame God for that.
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Eric H
02-05-2019, 12:06 AM
Greetings and peace be with you john.bob;

I understand time is not always the indicator for someone to achieve the correct path in life e.g. 12 year old converts.,
If you ask pious 80 year olds about their salvation, they will probably say, they do not deserve it; but they could only achieve salvation through the love, mercy and forgiveness of Allah, and not from what they have done.

Blessings
Eric
Reply

john.bob
02-05-2019, 12:25 AM
@*charisma* I am not so easily convinced as others are as I wish to follow the correct path, not just a path that seems right. You see God created a system i.e. this life as a test. God claims he is absolute Just. But if we observe this system we can prove that it is infact not Just at all. Therefore God has made an incorrect statement, which than disproves god. please answer what god could say to the individual I spoke of in my last post, then I will reply with an response to counter that. I am not concerned with things such as who knows what if someone dies earlier, I am merely observing the system god created and testing if truly is a fair test for everyone.
@Eric H are you a muslim, eventhough your info under your name says christianity. I agree with what you say but it still does not address my question so please do not reply to my post unless you have an answer, Thank you
Reply

najimuddin
02-05-2019, 12:27 AM
:salam:

It is Allah’s prerogative to do as He pleases.

He tells us: “Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided.” (Qur’an, 28:56)

and

“He is not questioned about what He does, but they will be questioned.” (Qur’an, 21:23)

That said, a major misunderstanding may arise with people who understand this in an anthropomorphic manner.

Allah tells us: “There is certainly nothing like Him.” (Qur’an, 42:11)

Despite this, in His infinite mercy, Allah has mentioned certain qualities of His that a human being may attempt to understand – with the caveat that human intellect cannot truly understand His reality because there is nothing like Him.

In Surah Kahf Allah illustrates the limitation of the intellect in understanding right from wrong in the incident of Musa :as: and Khidr :as:.

Musa :as:, being a Prophet of Allah, understood himself to be the most knowledgeable person in existence. Hence, Allah had Musa :as: find and learn from Khidr :as:. Along the way there were 3 blatantly apparent wrongs that Khidr :as: committed. Musa :as: protested to Khidr :as: about this. After the third time, Khidr :as: informed Musa :as: about the realities of the wrongs he witnessed. Musa :as: then realized that what he witnessed were not wrongs at all. The incidents were related to certain knowledge related to beyond the apparent which a person has to be taught by Allah :swt1: to understand.

Not surprisingly, Allah very clearly tells us the limitations of human intellect: “And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little.” (Qur’an, 17:85)

The above may be hard to grasp for some and that’s understandable. This is because our enemy Iblis is doing what he said he would – earnestly deceiving us. Deceiving us from realizing and focusing on our actual purpose in life: “And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.” (Qur’an, 51:56)

Allah will only ask me about what concerned me and was within my control - nothing else.
Reply

*charisma*
02-05-2019, 12:52 AM
Originally Posted by john.bob
@*charisma* I am not so easily convinced as others are as I wish to follow the correct path, not just a path that seems right. You see God created a system i.e. this life as a test. God claims he is absolute Just. But if we observe this system we can prove that it is infact not Just at all. Therefore God has made an incorrect statement, which than disproves god. please answer what god could say to the individual I spoke of in my last post, then I will reply with an response to counter that. I am not concerned with things such as who knows what if someone dies earlier, I am merely observing the system god created and testing if truly is a fair test for everyone.
But I did answer it. You just have no argument against it because your thinking is completely flawed. You are not a witness to someone else's life and what you are a witness to is only your own limited perspective and knowledge. WHO is it that you are trying to prove your case to? Yourself or to Allah?? Allah already knows your case better than you so you cannot prove anything to Him. He knows the truth and it will be SHOWN to you on the day of judgement. If it is to yourself that you are trying to prove the case to then ask yourself why you are not a Muslim, because all I hear you saying is that whatever it is you believe right now is more "correct" than Islam. And so far, I don't see that.

1. You are not the other person.
2. You did not live enough to compare yourself someone who has outlived you.
3. Why didn't you convert like someone who is younger than you, why did they convert and you haven't?
4. There are examples of people who have lived to the age of 40, 50, 60 and have not converted, so again where is your argument against that?

These are the points that expose your fallacious argument.

If two people went in to take an exam (like the two people in your example), one person was given 10 questions and 10 minutes to complete the exam, and the other person was given 20 questions and 20 minutes to complete the exam. Is that fair, or not? And if not, how can it be made fair? Because to be honest, your way of thinking has no logic.
Reply

eesa the kiwi
02-05-2019, 01:00 AM
Just to add on the day of judgment you're not going to be worried about those who did not receive the message you're going to be worried about your own skin

Dont concern yourself with others. the message of worshipping the creator alone has reached you

Question is what are you going to do about it
Reply

john.bob
02-05-2019, 06:42 AM
@*charisma* by your logic you are stating that it is OK for god to be unfair as along as we don't no about it. I'm sorry but regardless of what knowledge we have the test of life Allah has created is flawed and you're telling me to accept it because I won't know about someone who lives longer.

Also if two people are sitting exams one has 10 questions and the other has 20 questions than they are doing different exams. If that is the case when did we get a choice of which exam we want to take, if Allah assigned it to us, how can we tell it is fair?

@najumuddin I understand what you are saying, but that means we are correct to assume god is unjust, because based on the knowledge god has given us that is the only conclusion we can come to. In the same manner a Christian can argue you won't understand trinity because god has limited your knowledge and you are being misguided by Satan.

@eesa the kiwi yes, but I have a sound argument as to why I didn't accept Islam, as I couldn't find an answer to justify why Allah is Just. Also your answer doesn't answer my question, so please post here if you want to discuss my question.
Reply

SidratulMuntah
02-05-2019, 08:17 AM
@john.bob Look, some things you did not tell them. I just used them to explain, to better understand.
Your answers just show one more time, that you are not really interested in finding the truth. You just want to compromite Islam. The same as I said: you think, you are very smart, but in real, you turn around in a circle. When someone gave you a detailed answer here, you start again with the first question. You don’t want to accept, you just want to discuss. You don’t accept the answers. People like you, you can give them 1000 evidences, 1000 explanations, but they will reject, they will not believe. So it makes no sense to debate with you for this question any longer. Because you will start from the beginning again and again and none here will repeat all the answers again.

No, there’s no issue between Tom and Bob. You make it an issue. You have a complicated thinking and your mind is limited. You try to think like God. But none here is able to do that. Some questions will remain open until the day of resurrection or the day of judgement. It’s not unfair against Tom, that he died earlier than Bob. I told you already, that Allah knew, Bob will never accept Islam, even if he gave him 400 years to live. Don’t you understand that. But that’s just one possible explanation. There can be tons of others for God. We can’t know. Some things you must accept them, as they are.

No, wrong. We don’t get all the same exam. Allah tests different people in different ways. Very logic. If it’s always the same exam, people can prepare for that. That’s not the sense of an exam. It’s like in school. The questions of an exam change with every year. Exceptions may be there, but we talk in general.

No, free will is free will. And there’s no contradiction in it, that we don’t control suicide. Yes, for sure, we commit it finally and we decide. But as I said, every deed of free will happens with the permission of God. So finally he in real controls it. I told you too, that Allah allowed these things in advance, because he gave us the free will and he does not interfere, because he is absolutely just. But the point is: if he would want to interfere, he could. And so with him is the last word.

No, babies are not more favoured. It’s just a fact that they go to paradise, because they still don’t undergo the test. They don’t sin. Why should they go to hell? Putting them into he’ll would be unfair. That they surely go to paradise is just logic. I don’t know, what’s you discussion now for that point. It should be clear.
And it’s clear, that some people are more favoured and others less. That depends on their capabilities. The paradise is a high award. Only the best will go there. That should be clear.

It’s like in life too. Not every person can become a vascular surgeon. Only the best ones, who made most efforts and most struggle to get the best marks/points in their exams.

Hhhhh, to die young is not a criterion for getting into paradise.
OK, well… my answer to this post will end here now. Other posts, we will see.. But here it makes no more sense in my opinion to debate more. I said all, what I wanted to say and what I can say to this. We just would go around like in a carousel.
Reply

MazharShafiq
02-05-2019, 08:24 AM
Originally Posted by SidratulMuntah
@john.bob Look, some things you did not tell them. I just used them to explain, to better understand.
Your answers just show one more time, that you are not really interested in finding the truth. You just want to compromite Islam. The same as I said: you think, you are very smart, but in real, you turn around in a circle. When someone gave you a detailed answer here, you start again with the first question. You don’t want to accept, you just want to discuss. You don’t accept the answers. People like you, you can give them 1000 evidences, 1000 explanations, but they will reject, they will not believe. So it makes no sense to debate with you for this question any longer. Because you will start from the beginning again and again and none here will repeat all the answers again.

No, there’s no issue between Tom and Bob. You make it an issue. You have a complicated thinking and your mind is limited. You try to think like God. But none here is able to do that. Some questions will remain open until the day of resurrection or the day of judgement. It’s not unfair against Tom, that he died earlier than Bob. I told you already, that Allah knew, Bob will never accept Islam, even if he gave him 400 years to live. Don’t you understand that. But that’s just one possible explanation. There can be tons of others for God. We can’t know. Some things you must accept them, as they are.

No, wrong. We don’t get all the same exam. Allah tests different people in different ways. Very logic. If it’s always the same exam, people can prepare for that. That’s not the sense of an exam. It’s like in school. The questions of an exam change with every year. Exceptions may be there, but we talk in general.

No, free will is free will. And there’s no contradiction in it, that we don’t control suicide. Yes, for sure, we commit it finally and we decide. But as I said, every deed of free will happens with the permission of God. So finally he in real controls it. I told you too, that Allah allowed these things in advance, because he gave us the free will and he does not interfere, because he is absolutely just. But the point is: if he would want to interfere, he could. And so with him is the last word.

No, babies are not more favoured. It’s just a fact that they go to paradise, because they still don’t undergo the test. They don’t sin. Why should they go to hell? Putting them into he’ll would be unfair. That they surely go to paradise is just logic. I don’t know, what’s you discussion now for that point. It should be clear.
And it’s clear, that some people are more favoured and others less. That depends on their capabilities. The paradise is a high award. Only the best will go there. That should be clear.

It’s like in life too. Not every person can become a vascular surgeon. Only the best ones, who made most efforts and most struggle to get the best marks/points in their exams.

Hhhhh, to die young is not a criterion for getting into paradise.
OK, well… my answer to this post will end here now. Other posts, we will see.. But here it makes no more sense in my opinion to debate more. I said all, what I wanted to say and what I can say to this. We just would go around like in a carousel.
Aslaam o alikum
it is absolutely right and informative and benefit explanation if you want understand it.
Reply

Eric H
02-05-2019, 08:36 AM
Greetings and peace be with you john.bob; I am a Christian, and I have learned a great deal from my Muslim brothers and sisters on this forum.

Therefore God has made an incorrect statement, which than disproves god. please answer what god could say to the individual I spoke of in my last post, then I will reply with an response to counter that. I am not concerned with things such as who knows what if someone dies earlier, I am merely observing the system god created and testing if truly is a fair test for everyone
Either God the creator of the universe and life exists fully and totally, or there is no god. You will only find God when you start to change yourself and your attitude towards God. Study and reflect on the 99 names of Allah, who wants goodness for ALL his creation.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
Reply

eesa the kiwi
02-05-2019, 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by john.bob
@*charisma* by your logic you are stating that it is OK for god to be unfair as along as we don't no about it. I'm sorry but regardless of what knowledge we have the test of life Allah has created is flawed and you're telling me to accept it because I won't know about someone who lives longer.

Also if two people are sitting exams one has 10 questions and the other has 20 questions than they are doing different exams. If that is the case when did we get a choice of which exam we want to take, if Allah assigned it to us, how can we tell it is fair?

@najumuddin I understand what you are saying, but that means we are correct to assume god is unjust, because based on the knowledge god has given us that is the only conclusion we can come to. In the same manner a Christian can argue you won't understand trinity because god has limited your knowledge and you are being misguided by Satan.

@eesa the kiwi yes, but I have a sound argument as to why I didn't accept Islam, as I couldn't find an answer to justify why Allah is Just. Also your answer doesn't answer my question, so please post here if you want to discuss my question.
No you dont have a sound argument so dont try and kid yourself. You are basically saying you know better audhoo billah than the One who created the heavens and earth

Cant you see the arrogance here? That the Creator is wrong audhoo billah and John Bob has figured it all out. Humble yourself

I'm sorry but this is sheer foolishness so don't say you have a sound argument. Saying things like God has made an incorrect statement. Who exactly do you think you are? Show me what you have Created

Now as for your points theres a verse in the Quran that answers all of them


أَلَا يَعْلَمُ مَنْ خَلَقَ وَهُوَ اللَّطِيفُ الْخَبِيرُ

(67:14) Does He who created not know, while He is the Subtle, the Acquainted?



Islam is to accept that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah alone and Muhammad sallaho alayhi wa sallam is his servant and messenger. If you accept this and remain steadfast then inshaAllah paradise will be yours. If you reject then you are risking a fire whose fuel is men and stones

Peace be upon those who accept guidance
Reply

john.bob
02-05-2019, 11:18 AM
@SidratulMuntah to you it seems that I am going around in circle, but from reading your and others answer I can clearly see holes in them. Unlike you I am not a Muslim and therefore not afraid to ask the difficult questions, that can affect the delicate balance of my religion. I am here to point out that you should consider everything before committing to something. My question looks complicated but is very simple, all you have to do is state whether you think Tom should go to hellfire based on what we know. e.g. He clearly has been exposed to Islam and therefore should go to hellfire, but as we know that also arises various issues. Such as How is it fair that he did not live to the same age as Bob who began like Tom but became a Muslim at a later age. Had Bob died earlier he would have died a disbeliever like Tom. Tom will now have an valid argument against God that he was supposed to be given a chance to live on earth to show evidence as to what he would have done with free will; but his life was cut short and failed to show the evidence. Should God have let him live to the age Bob he would have no complaint as this would show equivalent evidence. Think of this scenario:

God created Tom to give him a chance to create evidence that he would be a Muslim or not, which is the point of this test/ life on this earth. Because we know God could simply said to him that I know what you will do with your life right till the end no matter what age you lived to, so I can send you to hell or heaven now. Instead God let him have his chance. But by taking his life at 18 for example and then saying to him on the Judgement day that no matter what age you lived to you were always going to be a disbeliever. It makes giving him a chance pointless as God could have said that before sending him to this test. So why let him live till 18 for no reason. We all know that most people in the west at the age of 18-25 for example majority are people are naive and may not take religion seriously. This scenario is especially made worse if another person Bob who is similar to Tom accepts Islam at a later age and dies a believer, Tom has now an argument against God as to why he wasn't given equal chance/length to Bob.

In regards to tests and how they are fair/ unfair I have a separate issue that I will post later once I am satisfied with an answer for this question.

The description of free will you described is not free will if the individual had to seek permission from God, as this implies that God is indeed in control and therefore the individual does not have the free will to kill himself. This is because God could deny his permission and therefore stopping him from killing himself.



In regards to babies, I admit it would be unfair to send them to hellfire but it would also be unfair to send them to paradise, this is because they haven't earned the right to go to either. It is particularly unfair if we consider that like me and you babies asked God to send them to earth so we can take this test, but the babies lives were taken away at a young age. Similarly, many people would agree that the test of life is very hard and would prefer to die as a infant and get automatic paradise. Now that is unfair? please before simply saying it is fair give an valid argument as to why?
@Eric H you are here debating me when you should be trying to convert your Muslim 'brothers and sisters' to Christianity to save them from hellfire; as we know that both Islam and Christianity contradict one another. Likewise, you have not attempted to answer my question once and are merely making a fool of yourself defending those whom to you are destined for hellfire. The fact that you haven't accepted Islam implies that you have some issues that you don't agree with clearly in Islam, maybe you should go and post a separate question and try to get them resolved, or try to maybe convert Muslims to save them from hellfire as non-Christians are destined for hellfire according to Christianity.
@eesa the kiwi your arguments make no sense at all, I have been given a brain by God which I am supposed to use to ponder about Gods creation. I do not have to be a God in order to ask these questions, when I say God has made a incorrect statement, I am not saying God is wrong; I am merely stating that according to what has revealed to me i am correct to assume that. e.g. If I showed only green birds and never ever showed you any other colored birds, you have a right to now assume that all birds are green. If take your argument and test it we can see that a Christian could easily say Jesus is God and therefore we cannot question him as we ourselves did not achieve any of his feats. I don't know more than God for sure, but I know enough to say that this test of life is unfair (based on everything I have read and seen), if God want to prove me wrong I would like it if God would reveal the answer to me.
Reply

Nájlá
02-05-2019, 02:10 PM
John,

You are going round in circles. We have answered your question but the problem is you have doubts and you want to argue and proof God is not real or unfair. You are not trying to seek answers rather you are seeking to challenge God.

We have told you:

1. God created us to only WORSHIP him.
2. We have free will.
3. Everything about us is a test, including AGE. There are 7 doors to hell, someone who lives only 15 years their test was probably to just Beleive in GOD after given the warning. That is probably what their test was before they die. Where as someone who lives 70 years will have different tests. Is this fair? Yes of course.

Someone who lives 70 years they will be tested with a lot even if they convert they will continue to be tested. This person will be held accountable for a lot of stuff when their book of deeds is given to them. This is just an example that we can think of it. But it all goes back to Gods wisdom.

We are in a TEST. This test isn't easy nor is it fixed. Nor are we fixed. Our death isn't fixed. Our age isn't fixed. Our challenges isn't fixed.


We cannot say why is this or why not this. God is the most WISE and he has only given us a small brain to help us pass the test. Why do you question what is fair for someone and what isn't for someone else? When they themselves will not even say this on the day of judgement?

To be a believer you have to belief in Allah's 99 names and leave the rest to him. We cannot compare our tiny brain to God's wisdom. Surly the quran tells us He knows and we do not.

You have lived to see a lot of years, why haven't you converted? Would you say it wasn't fair ? When you was given long enough to live?
Reply

azc
02-05-2019, 02:32 PM
@john.bob :

So, You are a Christian and you think that Muslims are destined as people of hell fire and Christians are people of heaven.
And you think that those Christians on IB who don't invite Muslims to Christianity are fool.

@ *charisma*
@ eesa the kiwi

- - - Updated - - -
@john.bob :

So, You are a Christian and you think that Muslims are destined as people of hell fire and Christians are people of heaven.
And you think that those Christians on IB who don't invite Muslims to Christianity are fool.

@ *charisma*
@ eesa the kiwi
Reply

john.bob
02-05-2019, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Nájlá
You are going round in circles. We have answered your question but the problem is you have doubts and you want to argue and proof God is not real or unfair. You are not trying to seek answers rather you are seeking to challenge God.
Yes, we are going in circle as no one seems to be able to understand the question correctly and provided a logical argument with any authentic sources, instead all I am getting is different opinions and some of which contradict each other and others are simply off topic. The reason I posted the question here is to seek an answer and just because I have not accepted your answer does not mean I am challenging Islam it simply means I am still waiting for an answer that will satisfy me and not leave me with more questions.

Originally Posted by Nájlá
1. God created us to only WORSHIP him.
2. We have free will.
These are not related to the topic of my question and I am not really concerned with these points nor I am I challenging them.

Originally Posted by Nájlá
3. Everything about us is a test, including AGE. There are 7 doors to hell, someone who lives only 15 years their test was probably to just Beleive in GOD after given the warning. That is probably what their test was before they die. Where as someone who lives 70 years will have different tests. Is this fair? Yes of course.
Please show me from which authentic source you have obtained this information, such as age being a test and 7 doors to hell.

Also, a typical 18-25 year old in a western society will be distracted in life and many either become devout Muslim and others don't, those that had short lifespan will fill cheated as they we know the older you get the more wiser you will be in most cases and many have changed their entire life around (I have seen this first hand), so they will want to reach that level of maturity so that on the day of judgement they have that evidence to show for it (the whole point of this test in the first place). For some becoming a practising Muslim will take longer and I have seen that, but that doesn't mean their test should be cut short; just because GOD knew that they will never change; then why give them this test in the first place. 15 year is a long time but assuming someone has encountered Islam at 18; but as mentioned they feel like its not that important, due to worldly distractions; like many in western societies. However, they died at 20 while slowly getting closer to Islam but not yet practising, GOD knows whether they would have become a devout Muslim, but is it fair to end his life with only 2 years to fully grasp Islam; he will feel cheated; as others are given 15-20 years to get themselves in a stable situation then finally focus on religion. Some people I have not only met but seen on the News have gone on to achieve great feat in the Islamic world but their beginning was not Islamic at all, they feel blessed unlike others to have been given this length of opportunity to grasp Islam.

Originally Posted by Nájlá
We cannot say why is this or why not this. God is the most WISE and he has only given us a small brain to help us pass the test. Why do you question what is fair for someone and what isn't for someone else? When they themselves will not even say this on the day of judgement?
This is not a valid argument as a Christian can use this argument to justify their religion, for example; they can say that Jesus their lord has not given us the capability to understand the Trinity therefore we must have belief and accept it.

I have just pointed a valid argument a person who died in his 18, 19, 20, etc can have on the day of judgement.


Originally Posted by Nájlá
You have lived to see a lot of years, why haven't you converted? Would you say it wasn't fair ? When you was given long enough to live?
To accept something like a new religion which I am completely open too, you must first clear the mind of any doubt and the best place to start is with those who have knowledge in this field; the very fact that I am here seeking an answer shows my dedication. Also, please don't take my responses as an attack, as I feel that everyone else is attacking me as a person rather then actually tackle my question. Thank You.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by azc
So, You are a Christian and you think that Muslims are destined as people of hell fire and Christians are people of heaven.
And you think that those Christians on IB who don't invite Muslims to Christianity are fool.
Never have I said I am a Christian but rather I am someone seeking the right path in life, I have respect for all religion.

What you are trying to do is attack me; when I have done nothing wrong by give someone logical advice.

Also no I do not think that Christians in IB are fools if they don't invite Muslims to Christianity, you just wrote it to make me look bad to other reading it, but I am sure most people here are smart and see though what you are trying to do.

Also, if you are going to post something please try to answer the question and simply attacking someone seeking an answer is not going to help your integrity as a Muslim, as I am quite sure Muslim are supposed to invite other to their religion not attack them and make false acquisitions about them.
Reply

azc
02-05-2019, 03:20 PM
@john.bob :
Eric H, you are here debating me when you should be trying to convert your Muslim 'brothers and sisters' to Christianity to save them from hellfire; as we know that both Islam and Christianity contradict one another. Likewise, you have not attempted to answer my question once and are merely making a fool of yourself defending those whom to you are destined for hellfire.
So, You are a Christian and you think that Muslims are destined as people of hell fire and Christians are people of heaven.

@*charisma*
@eesa the kiwi
Reply

azc
02-05-2019, 03:58 PM
@john.bob : Dear friend, read your post #46 (which partially has been quoted above) and see what you've advised to bro Eric H.
Reply

Nájlá
02-05-2019, 04:02 PM
Please show me from which authentic source you have obtained this information, such as age being a test and 7 doors to hell.
1. "Indeed the hell fire is the dwelling place of them all. It has seven gates and within each gate there is an
appropriate punishment for each inhabitant…"(Hijr: 44)

2. Everything is written down about each person way before they are born. If someone's death is written at 70, then their age is a test as in what have they done in those 70 years. Same applies for any other age. There will be different levels to hell just like there will be different levels to paradise. And there is clear evidence for why is that. Because we all don't deserve the same paradise or the same punishment. It all goes back to what we have done in this life.

Also, a typical 18-25 year old in a western society will be distracted in life and many either become devout Muslim and others don't, those that had short lifespan will fill cheated as they we know the older you get the more wiser you will be in most cases and many have changed their entire life around (I have seen this first hand), so they will want to reach that level of maturity so that on the day of judgement they have that evidence to show for it (the whole point of this test in the first place). For some becoming a practising Muslim will take longer and I have seen that, but that doesn't mean their test should be cut short; just because GOD knew that they will never change; then why give them this test in the first place. 15 year is a long time but assuming someone has encountered Islam at 18; but as mentioned they feel like its not that important, due to worldly distractions; like many in western societies. However, they died at 20 while slowly getting closer to Islam but not yet practising, GOD knows whether they would have become a devout Muslim, but is it fair to end his life with only 2 years to fully grasp Islam; he will feel cheated; as others are given 15-20 years to get themselves in a stable situation then finally focus on religion. Some people I have not only met but seen on the News have gone on to achieve great feat in the Islamic world but their beginning was not Islamic at all, they feel blessed unlike others to have been given this length of opportunity to grasp Islam.
.

Look we can be here all day and say what if and what isn't.

How about a muslim youth who dies so young? And wasn't able to practise one of the basic pillars of a muslim. Prayer. I told you we are tested in different ways. At each stage of our life each of us is tested in a way and something is expected of us. A 15 year old muslim is expected to start praying.. A 15 year old non muslim is expected to be a muslim before he dies. Because warning would have came their way.

Don't give me the excuse of maturity etc that's just lazy. We are in a test and Allah will give each of us signs. We are the ones to make a choice.
Reply

najimuddin
02-05-2019, 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by john.bob
@najumuddin I understand what you are saying, but that means we are correct to assume god is unjust, because based on the knowledge god has given us that is the only conclusion we can come to.
The knowledge Allah has given us shows that we cannot understand His infinite wisdom. This knowledge tells us that we are not correct to assume anything contrary to this.

In the same manner a Christian can argue you won't understand trinity because god has limited your knowledge and you are being misguided by Satan.
This is one of the reasons Allah sent Al-Amin, the Prophet Muhammad :saws:. To explicitly teach the people the fallacy of such beliefs.
Reply

john.bob
02-05-2019, 06:12 PM
@azc I never said he is a fool rather he is making himself look like one and I am merely making a suggestion, also here you are again making a post yet not contributing to the topic at hand. If you have no answer please stop posting pointless post which adds nothing to the argument.

@najla you have given me one source but not the other, I guess I'll wait for your next post for that one; thank you.

Also, I am not sure about you but most Muslim youth in where I live and across most western countries have very little interest in Islam; but many do become very devout Muslim much later in life; but according to you I guess if they die before then; they deserve hell fire. This seems very unfair.

Furthermore, GOD created the typical youth to be naive and warning coming at them at a young age can be hard for them to interpret as something very serious, so many will simply dismiss it; however it isn't their fault its how they were created.

Originally Posted by najimuddin
This is one of the reasons Allah sent Al-Amin, the Prophet Muhammad . To explicitly teach the people the fallacy of such beliefs.
The Christian does not take the Quran as the word of GOD so stating this would be pointless and using belief as an argument is very subjective.

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najimuddin
02-05-2019, 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by john.bob

The Christian does not take the Quran as the word of GOD so stating this would be pointless and using belief as an argument is very subjective.
Your not believing in the truthfulness of the Prophet Muhammad :saws: has no effect on its reality.

You see, that is the person who taught us how to think properly :saws:.
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Eric H
02-05-2019, 07:20 PM
Greetings and peace be with you john.bob;

and are merely making a fool of yourself defending those whom to you are destined for hellfire.
You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God, I quote this at the bottom of each of my posts. As it happens, this is very much in line with the first name of Allah - Ar-Rahmaan The Beneficent He who wills goodness and mercy for all His creatures.

We are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers despite our differences. We have a duty to care for all of God's creation, and that has to mean caring for each other despite our differences.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
Reply

azc
02-06-2019, 02:20 AM
@john.bob :

When you have already decided that Muslims are destined for hell then obviously you can not convert to Islam...

Right...?

All your questions have been answered categorically by other users but I know you are not going to be convinced at all.

Are you ready to answer my questions...?

Q: has bible been corrupted...?
Reply

MazharShafiq
02-06-2019, 10:04 AM
yes. I have also seen he do not want to learn about Islam.
Reply

Junon
02-17-2019, 08:05 PM
Salaam

This is relevant.

Blurb


Why-Islam presents Sh. Omar Suleiman who asks important questions about our goal in life. Is the enjoyment of life the ultimate goal worth living for? Can a blind and homeless individual be more content than a famous actor? Explore why individuals display such varying levels of contentment.


Reply

greenhill
02-23-2019, 04:18 AM
Salam to all.

Reading this thread made me think differently and it made me consider things not in my normal thought process..

The thing is, in Islam we are only accountable for our own actions. Where we end up, heaven or hell, has no bearing on others and where others end up has no bearing on us. Our ‘trade’ to heaven or hell depends on our actions and intentions in our lifetime and we should be primarily concern with that. Everyone will ‘trade’ differently with different points motivating them (or demotivating them).

So so how is Allah Just in all this?

Seeing as everyone has his or her own journey with their own predestined period, the judgement is between themselves and Allah at the point of their meeting. We do not know the parameters that make up their story, just as others do not know the make up of our own story.

At at the end of the day, it could be said that I was so distracted with what appears to be injustice to other people that I neglected myself.

So, if the issue is ONLY about that and other matters are acceptable to you with regards to the faith, then know that in Islam it is forbidden for you to judge others because of where it has lead this topic- trying to understand God’s way and rejecting God when the topic becomes complex when actually all we had to do was to get on with it.


:peace:
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