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yasoooo
02-19-2019, 11:08 AM
The following are some comments of scientists[1] on the scientific miracles in the Holy Quran.

1) Dr. T. V. N. Persaud is Professor of Anatomy, Professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, and Professor of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Sciences at the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. There, he was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy for 16 years. He is well-known in his field. He is the author or editor of 22 textbooks and has published over 181 scientific papers. In 1991, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. When he was asked about the scientific miracles in the Quran which he has researched, he stated the following:

“The way it was explained to me is that Muhammad was a very ordinary man. He could not read, didn’t know [how] to write. In fact, he was an illiterate. And we’re talking about twelve [actually about fourteen] hundred years ago. You have someone illiterate making profound pronouncements and statements and that are amazingly accurate about scientific nature. And I personally can’t see how this could be a mere chance. There are too many accuracies and, like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements.”


Professor Persaud has included some Quranic verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, in some of his books. He has also presented these verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad at several conferences.

2) Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson is the Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and Professor of Molecular and Human Genetics at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA. Formerly, he was Professor of Ob-Gyn and the Chairman of the Department of Ob-Gyn at the University of Tennessee, Memphis, Tennessee, USA. He was also the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynecology Public Recognition Award in 1992. Professor Simpson studied the following two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad:

“In every one of you, all components of your creation are collected together in your mother’s womb by forty days...”[2]

“If forty-two nights have passed over the embryo, God sends an angel to it, who shapes it and creates its hearing, vision, skin, flesh, and bones....”[3]

He studied these two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad extensively, noting that the first forty days constitute a clearly distinguishable stage of embryo-genesis. He was particularly impressed by the absolute precision and accuracy of those sayings of the Prophet Muhammad. Then, during one conference, he gave the following opinion:

“So that the two hadeeths (the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad) that have been noted provide us with a specific time table for the main embryological development before forty days. Again, the point has been made, I think, repeatedly by other speakers this morning: these hadeeths could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available [at] the time of their writing . . . . It follows, I think, that not only there is no conflict between genetics and religion but, in fact, religion can guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches, that there exist statements in the Quran shown centuries later to be valid, which support knowledge in the Quran having been derived from God.”

3) Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. There, for 22 years he was Professor of Anatomy, the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy, and the Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute. He was also the President of the Teratology Society. He has authored more than 200 publications. In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Johnson said in the presentation of his research paper:

“Summary: The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science.”

Also he said: “As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Quran. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I knew today and describing things, I could not describe the things which were described. I see no evidence for the fact to refute the concept that this individual, Muhammad, had to be developing this information from some place. So I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write.


4) Dr. William W. Hay is a well-known marine scientist. He is Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA. He was formerly the Dean of the Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science at the University of Miami, Miami, Florida, USA. After a discussion with Professor Hay about the Quran’s mention of recently discovered facts on seas, he said:

“I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Quran, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages.” And when he was asked about the source of the Quran, he replied: “Well, I would think it must be the divine being.”


5) Dr. Gerald C. Goeringer is Course Director and Associate Professor of Medical Embryology at the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington, DC, USA. During the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor Goeringer stated the following in the presentation of his research paper:

“In a relatively few aayahs (Quranic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development, such as classification, terminology, and description, existed previously. In most, if not all, instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature.”


6) Dr. Yoshihide Kozai is Professor Emeritus at Tokyo University, Hongo, Tokyo, Japan, and was the Director of the National Astronomical Observatory, Mitaka, Tokyo, Japan. He said:

“I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in [the] Quran, and for us the modern astronomers have been studying very small pieces of the universe. We’ve concentrated our efforts for understanding of [a] very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts [of] the sky without thinking [about the] whole universe. So, by reading [the] Quran and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe.”


7) Professor Tejatat Tejasen is the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University, Chiang Mai, Thailand. Previously, he was the Dean of the Faculty of Medicine at the same university. During the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor Tejasen stood up and said:

“During the last three years, I became interested in the Quran . . . . From my study and what I have learned from this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Quran fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means. Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth, which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible [as the] creator.

This creator must be God. Therefore, I think this is the time to say La ilaha illa Allah, there is no god to worship except Allah (God), Muhammadur rasoolu Allah, Muhammad is Messenger (Prophet) of Allah (God). Lastly, I must congratulate for the excellent and highly successful arrangement for this conference . . . . I have gained not only from the scientific point of view and religious point of view but also the great chance of meeting many well-known scientists and making many new friends among the participants. The most precious thing of all that I have gained by coming to this place is La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadur rasoolu Allah, and to have become a Muslim.”



After all these examples we have seen about the scientific miracles in the Holy Quran and all these scientists’ comments on this, let us ask ourselves these questions:

• Could it be a coincidence that all this recently discovered scientific information from different fields was mentioned in the Quran, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago?

• Could this Quran have been authored by Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, or by any other human being?

The only possible answer is that this Quran must be the literal word of God, revealed by Him.
القرآن الكريم والعلم الحديث كاملة The Quran and Modern Science full Zakir naik youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFO4G7zXlUI
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Scimitar
02-19-2019, 07:28 PM


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yasoooo
02-26-2019, 05:53 PM
Pain Receptors

For a long time it was thought that the sense of feeling and pain was dependent on the brain. However it has been discovered that there are pain receptors present in the skin[. Without these pain receptors, a person would not be able to feel pain.

Consider the following verse on pain:

“We shall send those who reject Our revelations to the (Hell) Fire. When their skins have been burned away, We shall replace them with new ones so that they may continue to feel the pain: God is Almighty, All-Wise.” (Quran 4:56)

God tells the people who reject his message that when they are in Hell and their skins are burnt off (so they can’t feel any pain), he will give them new skins so that they continue to feel the pain.

The Quran makes it clear that pain is dependent upon on the skin. The discovery of pain receptors in the skin is a fairly recent discovery for Biology.
Hellfire-Punishment ,Human skin, Modern Science in Quran :Dr Zakir Naik explains

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjKffO9607I
Islam and Modern Science - Human Aspect - Skin & Sensation - Part 2 of 5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25rLezuvzNE
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Zafran
02-27-2019, 01:07 AM
Originally Posted by yasoooo
The following are some comments of scientists[1] on the scientific miracles in the Holy Quran.
There are no "scientific miracles" science and miracles are 2 different things. This entire method is problematic - you need to study the philosophy of science to see what science actually is.

Rather the Quran deals with existential meaning, life after death and a righteous way of living.
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DanEdge
02-27-2019, 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
There are no "scientific miracles" science and miracles are 2 different things. This entire method is problematic - you need to study the philosophy of science to see what science actually is.

Rather the Quran deals with existential meaning, life after death and a righteous way of living.
Agreed, but I will say that parts of the Quran show an intelligent understanding of the science that was available to people at the time.
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greenhill
02-27-2019, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran

....Rather the Quran deals with existential meaning, life after death and a righteous way of living....
.... and it throws in some facts for us to ponder ...

... and that many have only been recently discovered should really ‘enlighten’ us to the weight of the message rather than be labelled as a ‘miracles’, if that is what you meant (?)


:peace:
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Ümit
02-27-2019, 05:14 PM
İ think what is meant with a scientific miracle is a particular event happening although the chance of happening was scientifically 0.
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yasoooo
03-06-2019, 11:16 AM
Ever since the dawn of mankind, we have sought to understand nature and our place in it. In this quest for the purpose of life many people have turned to religion. Most religions are based on books claimed by their followers to be divinely inspired, without any proof. Islam is different because it is based upon reason and proof.

There are clear signs that the book of Islam, the Quran, is the word of God and we have many reasons to support this claim:

· There are scientific and historical facts found in the Quran which were unknown to the people at the time, and have only been discovered recently by contemporary science.

· The Quran is in a unique style of language that cannot be replicated, this is known as the ‘Inimitability of the Quran.’

· There are prophecies made in the Quran and by the Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, which have come to be pass.

the scientific facts that are found in the Quran, centuries before they were ‘discovered’ in contemporary science. It is important to note that the Quran is not a book of science but a book of ‘signs’. These signs are there for people to recognise God’s existence and affirm His revelation. As we know, science sometimes takes a ‘U-turn’ where what once scientifically correct is false a few years later. In this article only established scientific facts are considered, not just theories or hypothesis.
Scientific Facts in the Quran

The Quran was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad in the 7th century.

Science at the time was primitive, there were no telescopes, microscopes or anything even close to the technology we have today. People believed that the sun orbited the earth and that the sky was held up by big pillars at the corners of a flat earth. Within this backdrop the Quran was revealed, and it contains many scientific facts on topics ranging from astronomy to biology, geology to sociology.

Some people may claim that the Quran was changed as new scientific facts were discovered but this cannot be the case because it is a historically documented fact that the Quran is preserved in its original language[1].

The Quran was written down and memorised by people during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad. One of the copies of the Quran which was written a few years after the death of the Prophet Muhammad is preserved in a museum in Uzbekistan. This copy is over 1400 years old and is exactly the same as the Arabic Quran that we have today[2].
Dr. Maurice Bucaille's Book: " The Bible The Qur'an and Science "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crkq8HVvdm8
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yasoooo
03-12-2019, 09:10 PM
I love a girl خالد ياسين مترجم

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEff5yQOIgA

عودة المسيح عيسى Yusha Evans

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMvD1JfZnn4
صورتي على الفيس حلال ام حرام ؟ الشيخ Haitham al-Haddad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myLMUS2_FxA&t=73s

فتاة تسأل اومن ان الله واحد و ان عيسى ليس ابن الله | يوشع ايفانز مترجم

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUd5UdpLZ8s
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yasoooo
03-20-2019, 11:28 AM
You are courteous

- Hell
In the teachings of the Islamic religion
1 - includes the punishment the infidels and the polytheists, Jews, Christians and Hindus 00,000
Yet as a result of Removed from the oneness of God and its involvement


allah says in the Holy Qur'an
in the Holy Qur'an the name of God the Merciful ((72) They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah – Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.
(73) They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.
(74) So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
(75) . The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.
(76) Say, "Do you worship besides Allah that which holds for you no [power of] harm or benefit while it is Allah who is the Hearing, the Knowing?

(48) Indeed, All h does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with All h has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.

(31) Inclining [only] to Allah , not associating [anything] with Him. And he who associates with Allah - it is as though he had fallen from the sky and was snatched by the birds or the wind carried him down into a remote place.

6. And for those who disbelieve in their Lord (Allah) is the torment of Hell, and worst indeed is that destination.
7. When they are cast therein, they will hear the (terrible) drawing in of its breath as it blazes forth.
8. It almost bursts up with fury. Every time a group is cast therein, its keeper will ask: "Did no warner come to you?"
9. They will say: "Yes indeed; a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: 'Allah never sent down anything (of revelation), you are only in great error.'"
10. And they will say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we would not have been among the dwellers of the blazing Fire!"
11. Then they will confess their sin. So, away with the dwellers of the blazing Fire.
12. Verily! Those who fear their Lord unseen (i.e. they do not see Him, nor His Punishment in the Hereafter, etc.), theirs will be forgiveness and a great reward (i.e. Paradise).




2 - punishment includes Muslim hypocrites
This means that it is not a real Muslim
But pretending to do so
and fought Islam in secret
And the punishment of a Muslim hypocrite
More than the infidel
God says in the Holy Qur'an
(142) Indeed, the hypocrites [think to] deceive All h, but He is deceiving them. And when they stand for prayer, they stand lazily, showing [themselves to] the people and not remembering All h except a little,
(143) Wavering between them, [belonging] neither to the believers nor to the disbelievers. And whoever All h leaves astray – never will you find for him a way.
(145) Indeed, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire – and never will you find for them a helper –

Muslim who commits mistakes
Alternating also in the grave
But
Not like the infidel and an atheist, God

So
The Muslim must adhere to the teachings of Islam
And its correct application

Sayyidina Anas (RA) reported that Allahs Messenger (peace be upon him) often said:

"O Turner of hearts, keep my heart steadfast on Your religion.
So, Anas (RA) asked,
We have believed in you and what you have brought.
Are you apprehensive about us? He said,
Yes hearts are, surely, between two of the fingers of Allah.
He may turn them as He will.



Tirmidhi 35- BOOK ON DECREE AND PREDESTINATION (2147



3 - punishment for a sinner Muslim who commits sins such as murder - adultery – Gambling -usury ----
«Sahih Al-Bukhari Narrated by Abu Huraira

The Prophet said, "Avoid the seven Great Destructive Sins." The people enquire, "O Allah`s Messenger (saws)! What are they? " He (saws) said:

"To join others in worship along with Allah,
to practice sorcery,
to kill the life which Allah has for bidden except for a just cause, (according to Islamic law),
to eat up riba (usury),
to eat up an orphan`s wealth,
to give back to the enemy and fleeing from the battlefield at the time of fighting,
and to accuse chaste women, who never even think of anything touching chastity and are good believers»




4 - a Muslim who has good works and acts of bad in this world
God says in the Holy Qur'an
(102) And [there are] others who have acknowledged their sins. They had mixed a righteous deed with another that was bad. Perhaps Allah will turn to them in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.



5-
The solution here to all

Sincere repentance of the adulterer and the determination not to go back again and will accept the repentance of God
And speed to good deeds
You can repent to allah
And thus will not be subjected to punishment


allah says in the Holy Qur'an
(135) And those who, when they commit an immorality or wrong themselves [by transgression], remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins – and who can forgive sins except Allah? – and [who] do not persist in what they have done while they know.
(136) Those – their reward is forgiveness from their Lord and gardens beneath which rivers flow [in Paradise], wherein they will abide eternally; and excellent is the reward of the [righteous] workers.
(68) And those who do not invoke with Allah another deity or kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed], except by right, and do not commit unlawful sexual intercourse. And whoever should do that will meet a penalty
(69) Multiplied for him is the punishment on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein humiliated
(70) Except for those who repent, believe and do righteous work. For them Allah will replace their evil deeds with good. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful
(71) And he who repents and does righteousness does indeed turn to Allah with [accepted] repentance
(72) And [they are] those who do not testify to falsehood, and when they pass near ill speech, they pass by with dignity
(73) And those who, when reminded of the verses of their Lord, do not fall upon them deaf and blind
(74)
(75) Those will be awarded the Chamber for what they patiently endured, and they will be received therein with greetings and [words of] peace
(76) Abiding eternally therein. Good is the settlement and residence

(104) Do they not know that it is Allah who accepts repentance from His servants and receives charities and that it is Allah who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful?

ركن المتحدثين الداعية محمد حجاب و زائرين فى الهايد بارك مترجم
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNzMEVKt4pA

الأخ عمران و عباس فى حوار مع مسيحيين ركن المتحدثين مترجم
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SwXdiIkDwI&t=10s
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AbdurRahman.
03-20-2019, 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar


This brother is completely wrong. He is over Thinking too much.

Intelligent design is infact the clear evidences Allah has kept in creation to recognise that He the Creator created them and science is just a deep observation of this I.D.

It's best for Muslims to keep it simple and use whatever we can to give evidential dawah and not try to become einstiens with our own super intellectual theories and disregard good 'tools' such as I.D. and scientific miracles to back up our dawah. However this latter one (scientific miracles) needs to be based on factual science rather then ever changing theories...
Reply

Scimitar
03-20-2019, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz

It's best for Muslims to keep it simple
Simple minds cannot do science! I suggest you exercise yours.

Here is your workout:

Reply

yasoooo
04-01-2019, 09:18 PM
Spend your wealth for the cause of Allah, and be not cast by your own hands to ruin; and do good. Lo! Allah loveth the beneficent{quran 2:195
According to the latest research from WHO (the World Health Organization), there are more than a million people who die each year because of smoking.
- 90% of people who die of lung disease died because of smoking,
- 70% of people who die of bronchitis die because of smoking,
- 25% of people who die of cardiovascular disease died because of smoking,
It's a slow poison.

As you know, cigarettes contain nicotine and tar.
According to the latest fatwas given by almost 400 scientists, smoking is forbidden because the Qur'an says:
"and be not cast by your own hands to ruin."
It might seem beautiful to see some smoke coming out of the mouth and nose, but what does this smoke hide?
Not only is smoking harmful to you but it is also dangerous for those around you.

Research shows us today that women smokers are more likely to be affected by lung cancer because passive smoking is more harmful, so this smoke is even more dangerous for people around who are in the process of 'inhale. To harm one's health is a sin and to harm others is another sin.
It should also be known that smoking has segundary effects:
- blackening of the lips, teeth, fingers,
- damage to the gums, throat,
- cause of peptic ulcer and constipation,


- causes the loss of libido (set of sexual impulses), vigor (energy), appetite, memory, ...
And unfortunately with all these disadvantages, we continue to advertise.
The main media are ads, posters and spots shown in cinemas.

In movies there is still a connection with smoking, so another way of encouraging people to smoke.
Smoking is an obsession, it is not easy to quit, and it is very difficult to change these habits, but many people have managed to do so and so it is not impossible. You have to have the will and seek advice from the experts (or doctors), be sincere to Allah, do prayers and inchAllah with the help of Allah you will be able to do it.
This video shows the autopsy of the lungs of a deceased smoker:
فيديو تشريح رئة مدخن flv - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpdQ_iv9T-4
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AbdurRahman.
04-08-2019, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar


Hmmm it seems there is an ulterior motive for him to want us to disregard intelligent design.

He wants us to accept the evolution theory:

https://youtu.be/riqCx84rhfY

I'm wondering wether IERA have been paid by UK government to do this

evolution theory is completely false and unscientific so why should any Muslim want us to accept it :?:

https://www.evolutiondeceit.com/
Reply

Altaqwa
04-08-2019, 10:41 PM
Darwinism is just a modern Gnostic-Pagan, Evolution is practically just a form of Freemason Kabbalah, Luciferianism - One primal essence emanates the universe which filters down into the material, over billions of years gradually becoming aware of itself until it itself becomes a god. The ideology is Evolution is basically the exact same thing. All of these words, even though that have their own contexts, they're in essence the same thing: Self-apotheosis.
Evolution posits that we were once a lesser species and now we've progressed, the end goal of Evolution (although, very subtly masked in Materialism, hence why atheists LOVE Evolution) is exactly that: Man turned God, as stated in Genesis 3:5 "Ye Shall Be As Gods".

Modern Science is filled to the brim with Gnosticism, Freemasonry, Satanism, Luciferianism yet people just pass it off as just coincidental.
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Ümit
04-09-2019, 05:38 AM
Originally Posted by AbdurRahman.
Hmmm it seems there is an ulterior motive for him to want us to disregard intelligent design.

He wants us to accept the evolution theory:

https://youtu.be/riqCx84rhfY

I'm wondering wether IERA have been paid by UK government to do this

evolution theory is completely false and unscientific so why should any Muslim want us to accept it :?:

https://www.evolutiondeceit.com/
Please check your sources my brother. When you refer to something you also need to check where the information is coming from and whether it is trustworthy.

Personally...İ will reject ANY information without even reading if it comes from Harun Yahya. İf you knew his background, this man is wrong on many many levels and cannot be trusted.
He even admitted multiple times himself on live tv that he is involved in freemasonary...got arrested multiple times for various crimes etc.
This man would be the last man on Earth more or less i will trust.
Reply

AbdurRahman.
04-09-2019, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Ümit
Please check your sources my brother. When you refer to something you also need to check where the information is coming from and whether it is trustworthy.

Personally...İ will reject ANY information without even reading if it comes from Harun Yahya. İf you knew his background, this man is wrong on many many levels and cannot be trusted.
He even admitted multiple times himself on live tv that he is involved in freemasonary...got arrested multiple times for various crimes etc.
This man would be the last man on Earth more or less i will trust.
The sources are good and reliable as the contents of that book are all referenced to works by creationist scientists and evolutionist scientists.

One of the person's from Harun Yahya's organisation revealed that Harun himself never wrote the book and it was people in his organisation that done the research and compiled it (from 11:05) :

https://youtu.be/JnqaI67LeSo

.
Reply

yasoooo
04-09-2019, 07:21 PM
THE TITLES OF THE EGYPTIAN GOVERNORS IN THE QURAN
Moses was not the only prophet who lived on the lands of Egypt in ancient history. The prophet Joseph lived there before him.
We see a certain parallel reading the stories of Moses and Joseph. Addressing the Egyptian governor at the time of Joseph, the word "malik" is used in the Qur'an:
And the king said: Bring him unto me that I may attach him to my person. And when he had talked with him he said: Lo! thou art to-day in our presence established and trusted.. [Quran, Surah Yusuf 12:54]


On the contrary, the governor at the time of Moses is referred to as "Pharaoh":
And verily We gave unto Moses nine tokens, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty). Do but ask the Children of Israel how he came unto them, then Pharaoh said unto him: Lo! I deem thee one bewitched, O Moses." [Quran, Surah Al-Isra 17: 101]


The historical chronicles that are available today show the reason for the different nomenclature of these governors. The word "pharaoh" was originally the name given to the royal palace in ancient Egypt. The governors of the old dynasty did not use this title. The use of the word pharaoh as the title of the governor did not begin until the time of the New Kingdom. This period begins with the 18th Dynasty (1532-1292 BC) and the word Pharaoh was adopted as a title of respect from the 20th Dynasty (945-730 BC).


The miraculous nature of the Quran is once again manifest: Joseph lived in the Old Kingdom era and so the word "malik" was used for the Egyptian governor rather than the "Pharaoh". On the other hand, as Moses lived in the time of the New Kingdom, the governor of Egypt is called "pharaoh".
There is no doubt that one must know the history of Egypt in order to make such a distinction. However, the history of ancient Egypt was completely forgotten from the 4th century because the hieroglyphs could no longer be deciphered and it was rediscovered only in the 19th century. Therefore, there was no detailed knowledge of Egyptian history when the Qur'an was revealed.

كيف ينبغي لنا الاستفادة من حياتنا ذاكر نايك مترجم
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sck13ywMgmI&
t=35s
صبي يعتنق الاسلام مع الداعية شمسي مترجم Street Dawah
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFBBFDF3TWI&t=59s
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Scimitar
04-10-2019, 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by AbdurRahman.
Hmmm it seems there is an ulterior motive for him to want us to disregard intelligent design.
You got this totally wrong.

Subboor explains clearly that the way scientific communities misrepresent intelligent design is the reason why he doesn't support it. It's a subtle point, but a potent one nonetheless.

Originally Posted by AbdurRahman.
He wants us to accept the evolution theory:

https://youtu.be/riqCx84rhfY
This is actually quite idiotic, and shows you did not understand the session at all. Subboor explains, quite beautifully, how Darwinism is a failed hypothesis.

Originally Posted by AbdurRahman.
I'm wondering wether IERA have been paid by UK government to do this
Conspiracy theorist alert!!!

Originally Posted by AbdurRahman.
evolution theory is completely false and unscientific so why should any Muslim want us to accept it :?:

https://www.evolutiondeceit.com/
Some Muslims might want you to accept it - but Subboor - is not one of them.
Reply

AbdurRahman.
04-10-2019, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
You got this totally wrong.

Subboor explains clearly that the way scientific communities misrepresent intelligent design is the reason why he doesn't support it. It's a subtle point, but a potent one nonetheless.



This is actually quite idiotic, and shows you did not understand the session at all. Subboor explains, quite beautifully, how Darwinism is a failed hypothesis.



Conspiracy theorist alert!!!



Some Muslims might want you to accept it - but Subboor - is not one of them.

He said in his video that because intelligent design scientists say it is impossible for animals to have evolved one from another, this is why we should disregard it. He's just trying to remove impediment to believing in evolution

The scientists infact do have good scientific evidence why it would have been impossible for a lot of creatures to have evolved from one another; see here for example:

https://m.harunyahya.com/tr/Books/97...ds-and-Mammals

It's also impossible for apes to have evolved into men due to their bone structures and specifically the backbone:


Recent researches reveal that it is impossible for the bent ape skeleton fit for quadrupedal stride to evolve into upright human skeleton fit for bipedal stride.


https://m.harunyahya.com/tr/Books/97...uman-Evolution


Anyone who believes God created life, then there isn't even a reason to try set out to prove life came about by step by step micro or macro evolution, as God could have created all creatures in their full forms. It's only those who wish to deny God that attempts to designate life to a process of cause and effect so people can think life or universe doesn't need God. This is another reason why Muslims should naturally find evolution theory suspect.
Reply

Scimitar
04-11-2019, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by AbdurRahman.
WOW, you just lost all credibility when you quoted Harun Yahya lol.

I feel slightly silly for humoring you with a response, lol, I mean, when you take Harun Yahya's clique as your goto source for science and/or Islam, you look mighty foolish, and in my experience people like you lack the basic understanding for either science or islam.

Have a nice day.
Reply

AbdurRahman.
04-11-2019, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
WOW, you just lost all credibility when you quoted Harun Yahya lol.

I feel slightly silly for humoring you with a response, lol, I mean, when you take Harun Yahya's clique as your goto source for science and/or Islam, you look mighty foolish, and in my experience people like you lack the basic understanding for either science or islam.

Have a nice day.
Harun yaha never wrote these books. See my above reply to @Umit
Reply

Scimitar
04-12-2019, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by AbdurRahman.
Harun yaha never wrote these books. See my above reply to @Umit
The "Harun yahya" machine plagiarized from Christian creationists who didn't really know much about science in the first place. If this is where you are placing your appeal to authority, then you have absolutely lost the plot.

Have a nice day.
Reply

Zafran
04-13-2019, 12:48 AM
Harun Yahyha and his cult should not be trusted on science or Islam. Secondly evolutionary biology is one of the strongest scientific paradigms we have today, of course its bound to change as more ideas and evidence is gathered but to try to dismiss it by creationist conspiracy theorist isn't a good idea.
Reply

AbdurRahman.
04-13-2019, 06:32 AM
European scientist converts to Islam after seeing scientific miracle in Quran!:

https://youtu.be/Tzcdh8sDoh8
Reply

yasoooo
04-15-2019, 09:57 PM
صورتي على الفيس حلال ام حرام؟ الشيخ Haitham al-Haddad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYE_Owevp9M&t=49s

فتاة تسأل اومن ان الله واحد و ان عيسى ليس ابن الله | يوشع ايفانز مترجم

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr6Wzad7X8o&t=27s


أبي لا يسمح لي بارتداء الحجاب ماذا أفعل ؟ hijab


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVX8Y8ArDqA&t=53s
Reply

yasoooo
04-22-2019, 07:03 PM
qibla change in islam


There are more than 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, and each time they pray, they turn their faces in one direction, towards Mecca. The Islamic term for this direction is qibla. When a Muslim prepares to pray, no matter where he is, he turns towards the qibla, the direction of the Kaba. The Kaba is a small cube shaped building in the courtyard of the mosque known as Masjid Al Haram, in the city of Mecca, in the country of Saudi Arabia.

“For every nation there is a direction to which they face (in their prayers). So hasten towards all that is good. Wheresoever you may be, God will bring you together (on the Day of Resurrection). Truly, God is Able to do all things. And from wheresoever you start forth (for prayers), turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Mecca), that is indeed the truth from your Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.” (Quran 2:148-149)

Muslims do not worship the Kaba, or its contents, it is simply a focal point. Muslims worship One God, the Most Merciful, and the Most Wise. God decreed that when Muslims pray they all face one direction. It is a sign of unity that encapsulates the unity embedded in the religion of Islam.

The Arabic word for prayer is salah and it demotes a connection between the believer and God; when all believers face the same direction it adds an extra dimension to the connection. The prayer connects the believers to God and the qibla connects the believers to one another. It has been said that if one could observe all the Muslims at prayer we would be able to see lines of worshippers bowing and prostrating like the petals of a flower opening and closing in unison.

The qibla was not always oriented towards Mecca. The first Muslims prayed towards the al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. Around sixteen months after Prophet Muhammad and his followers migrated from Mecca to the city of Medina, the qibla was changed to the Kaba. According to accounts by Prophet Muhammad's companions, the change happened very suddenly. During the noon prayer, Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, received a revelation from God instructing him to, "Turn your face towards the Masjid al Haram".

“Thus, we have made you real believers in Islamic Monotheism, true followers of Prophet Muhammad and his legal ways, a just nation, witnesses over mankind and the Messenger a witness over you. And We made the Qibla (prayer direction towards Jerusalem) which you used to face, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (i.e. disobey the Messenger). Indeed, it was great (heavy) except for those whom God guided. And God would never make your prayers to be lost (i.e. your prayers offered towards Jerusalem). Truly, God is full of kindness, the Most Merciful towards humankind.”

“Verily! We have seen the turning of your (Muhammad) face towards the heaven. Surely, We shall turn you to a Qibla (prayer direction) that shall please you, so turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid- al-Haram (at Mecca). And wheresoever you people are, turn your faces (in prayer) in that direction...” (Quran 2:143-144)

Changing the direction of prayer establishes Mecca as the fixed central point for worship. It establishes a common sense or purpose.

Throughout the centuries, mathematicians and astronomers have established correct ways to determine the qibla (direction) from any point on the earth’s surface. There are two precise moments each year when the sun is directly above the Kaba, thus the direction of shadows in any sunlit place will point away from the qibla. There are also two moments per year when the sun is directly over the exact opposite position of the Kaba, thus pointing towards the qibla.

It is important the Muslims make every effort to face the right direction when praying; however, slight deviations do not invalidate a person’s prayer. Prophet Muhammad said, “What is between the east and the west is qibla”.[1] Nowadays it is easy to locate the qibla. It is a simple matter to look at a map and draw a line between your location and the city of Mecca. Compasses and computer programs that locate the qibla are readily available and most mosques throughout the world have a niche in the wall to indicate the qibla.

Islam is a religion of unity. Muslims are united by their belief in One God. They are one brotherhood united in the language and ritual of prayer and united by the direction of their worship. The qibla is not only about degrees of latitude or longitude it is about unity. It is about humankind united in the worship of the One God, Creator, and Sustainer of the universe

منصور و اسئلة فتاة مسيحية عن المساواة فى الاسلام ركن المتحدثين مترجم

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw0HptNgAU8

Change Of Qibla From Jerusalem To Kaaba By Nouman Ali

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfeSLuLMeAo
Reply

yasoooo
04-29-2019, 09:29 PM
There was a cruel oppressive tribal leader named Abu Jahl who lived during the time of Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him. God revealed a verse of the Quran to warn him:

“No Indeed! If he does not stop, We will seize him by the forehead, his lying, sinful forehead.” (Quran 96:15-16)

God does not call this person a liar, but calls his forehead (the front part of the brain) ‘lying’ and ‘sinful’, and warns him to stop.

This verse is significant for two reasons. The first is that the front part of our brain is responsible for voluntary movement

This is known as the frontal lobe. A book titled ‘Essentials of Anatomy and Physiology’ which includes the results of research on the functions of this area states: The motivation and the foresight to plan and initiate movements occur in the anterior portion of the frontal lobes, the prefrontal area. The part of the brain that is responsible for movement is said to be seized if the man does not stop.

Secondly, numerous studies have shown that this same region (frontal lobe) is responsible for the lying function of the brain. One such study at the University of Pennsylvania in which volunteers were asked questions during a computerized interrogation, it was found that when the volunteers were lying there was significantly increased activity in the prefrontal and premotor cortices (frontal lobe region)

The front part of the brain is responsible for movement and lying. The Quran links movement and lying to this area. These functions of the frontal lobe were discovered with medical imaging equipment which was developed in the 20th century.
ركن المتحدثين الداعية محمد حجاب و زائرين فى الهايد

بارك مترجم

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEcLgX8EL4E&t=79s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK9sQHJFAtM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJX5XKhd8xo
Reply

Abz2000
04-30-2019, 10:35 AM
Originally Posted by AbdurRahman.
He said in his video that because intelligent design scientists say it is impossible for animals to have evolved one from another, this is why we should disregard it. He's just trying to remove impediment to believing in evolution

The scientists infact do have good scientific evidence why it would have been impossible for a lot of creatures to have evolved from one another; see here for example:

https://m.harunyahya.com/tr/Books/97...ds-and-Mammals

It's also impossible for apes to have evolved into men due to their bone structures and specifically the backbone:


Recent researches reveal that it is impossible for the bent ape skeleton fit for quadrupedal stride to evolve into upright human skeleton fit for bipedal stride.


https://m.harunyahya.com/tr/Books/97...uman-Evolution


Anyone who believes God created life, then there isn't even a reason to try set out to prove life came about by step by step micro or macro evolution, as God could have created all creatures in their full forms. It's only those who wish to deny God that attempts to designate life to a process of cause and effect so people can think life or universe doesn't need God. This is another reason why Muslims should naturally find evolution theory suspect.
The same logic would not hold water when compared with Quranic teachings.

E.g - the following argument falls apart and dissolves upon pondering:

Anyone who believes God created Jesus then there isn't even a reason to try set out to prove that his life came about by step by step micro or macro evolution, as God could have created all creatures in their full forms (since the parable of jesus is that of adam - he must have been a full grown man when he arrived from crypton or elsewhere), It's only those who wish to deny God that attempt to designate life to a process of cause and effect so people can think life or universe doesn't need God (though our practice of bathing, brushing our teeth, and cleaning food preparation surfaces are simply religius rituals that requires no explanation or understanding, and God could keep them clean if he wanted to - the cause and effect explanation for tooth rot and acquired hereditary viral attack which changes the genetic makeup of an individual are simply ways to explain the curses away (as if they are not rules set beforehand and intertwined with Qadr).
This is another reason why people should naturally find the cell division story, the virgin birth story and genetic inheritance from two different parents theories suspect.


Did the person's teeth rot because they didn't brush them? Or did God do it to them as a punishment for detaching from fitrah?
Maybe it's a bit of both - since God set the rules of fitrah - but whether it was intended as a punishment for not following the rules, or a simple case of wrong life choices - is something to ponder over.


Both are fails when they clash - The fatalists who load it all on God in a ritualistic fashion without attempting to understand, (thereby rejecting the opening verses which include: "allama bi al qalam - allama al insaana maa lam ya'lam") - and the secularists who attempt to cover the truth by burying their heads in the sand (thereby falling into falsehood), and then try to find explanations which lamely discount the unchanging laws of God .... until they descend into chaos and confusion as the worst crooks from amongst them take political power and then cheat them as they cheat themselves.




It seems to be in our nature to focus on how we were wrong over the fact that we're now smarter (as if we can't be works in progress), and we often attach our egos to what we believe. A view is just how you see something. It doesn't have to define you, and trying to detach from it to gain understanding can be a very good thing.


Kal Turnbull
Reply

yasoooo
06-11-2019, 05:44 AM
The Ocean

The Quran uses imagery to covey its deep meanings, here it describes the state of the unbelievers as:

“Darkness out in a deep ocean which is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds, layers of darkness, one upon the other. When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. Those God gives no light to, they have no light.” (Quran 24:40)

It is commonly thought that waves only occur on the surface of the ocean. However oceanographers have discovered that there are internal waves that take place below the surface of the ocean. These waves are invisible to the human eye, and can only be detected by specialist equipment[8]. The Quran mentions darkness in a deep ocean above which are waves, above which are waves, then clouds above that.

This description is not only remarkable because it describes the internal waves in the ocean, but also because it describes darkness deep in the ocean. A human being can dive no more than 70 metres without breathing equipment. Light is present at that depth, but if we go down 1000 metres it is completely dark[9]. 1400 years ago there were no submarines or specialist equipment to discover internal waves or the darkness deep inside the oceans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtqHtZgoEwU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTew5qgmkvY

شاب يسال ذاكر نايك لماذا نقلد النبي محمد | مترجم
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lerRxBEyfR0

منصور و فتاة مسيحية l ركن المتحدثين l هايد بارك

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5FEmGRxHwA
Reply

Ümit
06-11-2019, 06:15 AM
Originally Posted by yasoooo
The Ocean

The Quran uses imagery to covey its deep meanings, here it describes the state of the unbelievers as:

“Darkness out in a deep ocean which is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds, layers of darkness, one upon the other. When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. Those God gives no light to, they have no light.” (Quran 24:40)

It is commonly thought that waves only occur on the surface of the ocean. However oceanographers have discovered that there are internal waves that take place below the surface of the ocean. These waves are invisible to the human eye, and can only be detected by specialist equipment[8]. The Quran mentions darkness in a deep ocean above which are waves, above which are waves, then clouds above that.

This description is not only remarkable because it describes the internal waves in the ocean, but also because it describes darkness deep in the ocean. A human being can dive no more than 70 metres without breathing equipment. Light is present at that depth, but if we go down 1000 metres it is completely dark[9]. 1400 years ago there were no submarines or specialist equipment to discover internal waves or the darkness deep inside the oceans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtqHtZgoEwU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTew5qgmkvY

شاب يسال ذاكر نايك لماذا نقلد النبي محمد | مترجم
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lerRxBEyfR0

منصور و فتاة مسيحية l ركن المتحدثين l هايد بارك

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5FEmGRxHwA
You do not have to be an oceanist to know that an ocean, sea, river lake or any other water mass has waves below the surface. The waves on the surface are just caused because of the wind. the water mass itself however is affected by high pressure places, low pressure places, so currents from high to low, certain circulation currents, gravitation of the moon pulling on the watermass, etc, etc.

It is just like the air mass we live in. the wind we cannot see, but surely detect and feel are the waves in air.

Besides, you do not need special equipment to detect the currents and waves below the surface. any object in floating around below the surface can do that job. I often see a leaf or plant in the water that travels in a different direction than the waves on the surface do.

But besides that, I get your general message and thank you for your post.
Reply

MazharShafiq
06-11-2019, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by yasoooo
The Ocean

The Quran uses imagery to covey its deep meanings, here it describes the state of the unbelievers as:

“Darkness out in a deep ocean which is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds, layers of darkness, one upon the other. When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. Those God gives no light to, they have no light.” (Quran 24:40)

It is commonly thought that waves only occur on the surface of the ocean. However oceanographers have discovered that there are internal waves that take place below the surface of the ocean. These waves are invisible to the human eye, and can only be detected by specialist equipment[8]. The Quran mentions darkness in a deep ocean above which are waves, above which are waves, then clouds above that.

This description is not only remarkable because it describes the internal waves in the ocean, but also because it describes darkness deep in the ocean. A human being can dive no more than 70 metres without breathing equipment. Light is present at that depth, but if we go down 1000 metres it is completely dark[9]. 1400 years ago there were no submarines or specialist equipment to discover internal waves or the darkness deep inside the oceans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtqHtZgoEwU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTew5qgmkvY

شاب يسال ذاكر نايك لماذا نقلد النبي محمد | مترجم
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lerRxBEyfR0

منصور و فتاة مسيحية l ركن المتحدثين l هايد بارك

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5FEmGRxHwA
thanks for this useful information
Reply

Abz2000
06-11-2019, 06:01 PM
@Ümit
True, and i genuinely very much appreciate the fact that you give that critical point of view on behalf of other Muslims which speaks to readers who may roll their eyes and say "what.....ever" ,

But..... it is useful to take into account that the Prophet :saws: lived in the Arabian Peninsula and his initial job was local shepherding, and his second significant job was travelling north in caravans for trade in cattle - and these places were quite dry, so to imagine him musing about all that stuff accurately without making mistakes is an accumulating pointer -even if not evidence- to his not having been speaking of himself.

These people used to have to travel very far out just to learn to swim in large pools of water for military training during the time of 'Umar ibn al khattaab :ra: - otherwse it was mainly wells, pitchers, and an occasional much celebrated fountain.

Also - the fact that it is mentioned in a matter of fact manner in parable to the situation of people lost in layers of hawaa for judgement is an evidence that it wasn't being promoted as a scientific wow in and of itself - rather, the subtle nature of the parable itself is the astounding part which forces a person to stop and think of the psychology of those whose judgements have no firm grounding and whose minds are in a state of self and secular media induced turbulence.

I honestly can't think of a more fitting parable in context of the psychology.
Reply

Ümit
06-12-2019, 05:17 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
@Ümit
True, and i genuinely very much appreciate the fact that you give that critical point of view on behalf of other Muslims which speaks to readers who may roll their eyes and say "what.....ever" ,

But..... it is useful to take into account that the Prophet :saws: lived in the Arabian Peninsula and his initial job was local shepherding, and his second significant job was travelling north in caravans for trade in cattle - and these places were quite dry, so to imagine him musing about all that stuff accurately without making mistakes is an accumulating pointer -even if not evidence- to his not having been speaking of himself.

These people used to have to travel very far out just to learn to swim in large pools of water for military training during the time of 'Umar ibn al khattaab :ra: - otherwse it was mainly wells, pitchers, and an occasional much celebrated fountain.

Also - the fact that it is mentioned in a matter of fact manner in parable to the situation of people lost in layers of hawaa for judgement is an evidence that it wasn't being promoted as a scientific wow in and of itself - rather, the subtle nature of the parable itself is the astounding part which forces a person to stop and think of the psychology of those whose judgements have no firm grounding and whose minds are in a state of self and secular media induced turbulence.

I honestly can't think of a more fitting parable in context of the psychology.
No, I am sorry...I totally get that. And I do not criticize the given general message. I guess my post was just a semi automatic post to point a few things out without thinking too much about it. But thanks for your concern.
Reply

Ahmed.
06-12-2019, 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
The same logic would not hold water when compared with Quranic teachings.

E.g - the following argument falls apart and dissolves upon pondering:





Did the person's teeth rot because they didn't brush them? Or did God do it to them as a punishment for detaching from fitrah?
Maybe it's a bit of both - since God set the rules of fitrah - but whether it was intended as a punishment for not following the rules, or a simple case of wrong life choices - is something to ponder over.


Both are fails when they clash - The fatalists who load it all on God in a ritualistic fashion without attempting to understand, (thereby rejecting the opening verses which include: "allama bi al qalam - allama al insaana maa lam ya'lam") - and the secularists who attempt to cover the truth by burying their heads in the sand (thereby falling into falsehood), and then try to find explanations which lamely discount the unchanging laws of God .... until they descend into chaos and confusion as the worst crooks from amongst them take political power and then cheat them as they cheat themselves.




It seems to be in our nature to focus on how we were wrong over the fact that we're now smarter (as if we can't be works in progress), and we often attach our egos to what we believe. A view is just how you see something. It doesn't have to define you, and trying to detach from it to gain understanding can be a very good thing.


Kal Turnbull
I don't think that was a good comparison as the talk is about the first creatures and not those given birth by others

There is fossil evidence that the first parent creatures were created fully by Allah; look up about the 'Cambrian explosion'. That's the earliest fossils found and they are all of fully formed sophisticated creatures
Reply

Abz2000
06-12-2019, 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
I don't think that was a good comparison as the talk is about the first creatures and not those given birth by others

There is fossil evidence that the first parent creatures were created fully by Allah; look up about the 'Cumbrian explosion'. That's the earliest fossils found and they are all of fully formed sophisticated creatures

The same was assumed regarding sperm by many until the advent of the microscope i.e that they were miniature fully formed human beings:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...erm-180963578/

https://io9.gizmodo.com/when-scienti...1535749294/amp

but we can see now that the birth process is similar for most species including fish, reptiles, birds -all of which which lay eggs, and other mammals which carry in the womb, and clearly visible differences are only apparent at a stage which appears to be called "khalq an aakhar" (another creation) in the Quran.


Attachment 6712


The whole developmental process appears to be a record of acceptances of past positives (relative to branching species) (discounting acceptances of negatives due to genetic flaws), and rejection of past negatives (again relative to branching species) (discounting rejections of positives due to genetic flaws), all the way from "maa-in-maheen" (lowly despicable fluid) to individual offspring bearing resemblances of both parents depending much on mental and physical health, experiences, and age at the time of conception and during pregnancy.


https://babybelliesandbeyond.com/201...-unbelievable/


The divine pronunciation "Innee a'lamu maa laa ta'lamoon" could be indicating that the angels only saw Adam and his qualities as he would be on earth, and wondered and questioned - though Allah :swt: who knew the future of this work in progress -which had been given the ability to increase in intelligence through the generations based on learning from mistakes and compounding knowledge -knew better.



I believe that the earliest traces of living species would be something more akin to bacteria (lowly despicable fluid - arabic: "maa in maheen") which practice cell division and replication - not very much differently to the way human fetal cells multiply.

And Allah :swt: knows best.

- - - Updated - - -

More compelling evidence


Attachment 6713

Attachment 6714

Attachment 6715

Attachment 6716

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-change-stance
Reply

yasoooo
06-18-2019, 11:17 AM
Sun’s Orbit

In 1512 the astronomer Nicholas Copernicus put forward his theory that the Sun is motionless at the centre of the solar system, and that the planets revolve around it. The belief that the Sun is stationary was widespread amongst astronomers until the 20th century. It is now a well-established scientific fact that the Sun is not stationary, but is moving in an orbit around the centre of our Milky Way galaxy

The Quran mentions the orbit of the Sun:

“It is He who created night and day, the Sun and the Moon, each floating in its orbit.” (Quran 21:33)

The Quran would have been wrong according to astronomers just a couple of decades ago. But we now know that the Quranic account of the Sun’s motion is consistent with modern Astronomy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SqO-SxtBUY

ما هى معجزات محمد ..؟ - احمد ديدات
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMeWM5TTJFM
لن تصدق القران يؤمن بالانجيل - احمد ديدات
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrSWnv-LDYA
يهودية ملحدة تدافع عن القرآن (مترجم).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu-8S-nbl0Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvQDyIGW8UU
Reply

Ümit
06-18-2019, 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by yasoooo
Sun’s Orbit

In 1512 the astronomer Nicholas Copernicus put forward his theory that the Sun is motionless at the centre of the solar system, and that the planets revolve around it. The belief that the Sun is stationary was widespread amongst astronomers until the 20th century. It is now a well-established scientific fact that the Sun is not stationary, but is moving in an orbit around the centre of our Milky Way galaxy

The Quran mentions the orbit of the Sun:

“It is He who created night and day, the Sun and the Moon, each floating in its orbit.” (Quran 21:33)

The Quran would have been wrong according to astronomers just a couple of decades ago. But we now know that the Quranic account of the Sun’s motion is consistent with modern Astronomy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SqO-SxtBUY

ما هى معجزات محمد ..؟ - احمد ديدات
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMeWM5TTJFM
لن تصدق القران يؤمن بالانجيل - احمد ديدات
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrSWnv-LDYA
يهودية ملحدة تدافع عن القرآن (مترجم).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu-8S-nbl0Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvQDyIGW8UU
I totally agree with you. but I want to add something to this:
motion is relative. if an object is in motion, we mean this object moves relative to a reference point.

If this object was in void, with nothing near...like in space...you could never tell whether this object is in motion or not...because you do not have a reference point.
You can choose the reference point wherever you like.

If you have only object A and object B in void, and you had the ability to pin object A down to the void itself....then you could see whether object B was moving or not.
If you would pin object b down to the void, then you would see wheter object A was moving or not.

So why am I telling this?

If you had the ability to pin down the sun onto its location in space...you would see not only the earth moon and planets orbit around it...you would see the whole milkyway (together with all other milkyways) and the rest of the universe revolve around it.

it is really a matter of choosing your reference point. of course the model can get very complicated if you choose your point at earth or moon and then zoom out to see the milkyway...but that is a different story.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by yasoooo
Sun’s Orbit

In 1512 the astronomer Nicholas Copernicus put forward his theory that the Sun is motionless at the centre of the solar system, and that the planets revolve around it. The belief that the Sun is stationary was widespread amongst astronomers until the 20th century. It is now a well-established scientific fact that the Sun is not stationary, but is moving in an orbit around the centre of our Milky Way galaxy

The Quran mentions the orbit of the Sun:

“It is He who created night and day, the Sun and the Moon, each floating in its orbit.” (Quran 21:33)

The Quran would have been wrong according to astronomers just a couple of decades ago. But we now know that the Quranic account of the Sun’s motion is consistent with modern Astronomy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SqO-SxtBUY

ما هى معجزات محمد ..؟ - احمد ديدات
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMeWM5TTJFM
لن تصدق القران يؤمن بالانجيل - احمد ديدات
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrSWnv-LDYA
يهودية ملحدة تدافع عن القرآن (مترجم).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu-8S-nbl0Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvQDyIGW8UU
I totally agree with you. but I want to add something to this:
motion is relative. if an object is in motion, we mean this object moves relative to a reference point.

If this object was in void, with nothing near...like in space...you could never tell whether this object is in motion or not...because you do not have a reference point.
You can choose the reference point wherever you like.

If you have only object A and object B in void, and you had the ability to pin object A down to the void itself....then you could see whether object B was moving or not.
If you would pin object b down to the void, then you would see wheter object A was moving or not.

So why am I telling this?

If you had the ability to pin down the sun onto its location in space...you would see not only the earth moon and planets orbit around it...you would see the whole milkyway (together with all other milkyways) and the rest of the universe revolve around it.

it is really a matter of choosing your reference point. of course the model can get very complicated if you choose your point at earth or moon and then zoom out to see the milkyway...but that is a different story.
Reply

Ahmed.
06-18-2019, 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
The same was assumed regarding sperm by many until the advent of the microscope i.e that they were miniature fully formed human beings:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...erm-180963578/

https://io9.gizmodo.com/when-scienti...1535749294/amp

but we can see now that the birth process is similar for most species including fish, reptiles, birds -all of which which lay eggs, and other mammals which carry in the womb, and clearly visible differences are only apparent at a stage which appears to be called "khalq an aakhar" (another creation) in the Quran.


Attachment 6712


The whole developmental process appears to be a record of acceptances of past positives (relative to branching species) (discounting acceptances of negatives due to genetic flaws), and rejection of past negatives (again relative to branching species) (discounting rejections of positives due to genetic flaws), all the way from "maa-in-maheen" (lowly despicable fluid) to individual offspring bearing resemblances of both parents depending much on mental and physical health, experiences, and age at the time of conception and during pregnancy.


https://babybelliesandbeyond.com/201...-unbelievable/


The divine pronunciation "Innee a'lamu maa laa ta'lamoon" could be indicating that the angels only saw Adam and his qualities as he would be on earth, and wondered and questioned - though Allah :swt: who knew the future of this work in progress -which had been given the ability to increase in intelligence through the generations based on learning from mistakes and compounding knowledge -knew better.



I believe that the earliest traces of living species would be something more akin to bacteria (lowly despicable fluid - arabic: "maa in maheen") which practice cell division and replication - not very much differently to the way human fetal cells multiply.

And Allah :swt: knows best.

- - - Updated - - -

More compelling evidence


Attachment 6713

Attachment 6714

Attachment 6715

Attachment 6716

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-change-stance
Bruv i dont know whether you are advocating the evolution of man from different species', if so, this is dangerous for iman; look at excerpt from Shaykh Nuh Keller; he clearly says that there is no other lexical meaning to the Quranic word 'bashar' other than 'man' and this is why it can only mean Allah created man from clay (And nothing in between). And he goes on to say that believing that it was anything else (any other species before man) from clay will be kufr:

. I say "the first human," because the Arabic term bashar used in the verse "Truly, I will create a man from clay" means precisely a human being and has no other lexical significance.

... As for claim that man has evolved from a non-human species, this is unbelief (kufr) no matter if we ascribe the process to Allah or to "nature," because it negates the truth of Adam's special creation that Allah has revealed in the Qur'an.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/evolve.htm
Reply

Abz2000
06-19-2019, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Bruv i dont know whether you are advocating the evolution of man from different species', if so, this is dangerous for iman; look at excerpt from Shaykh Nuh Keller; he clearly says that there is no other lexical meaning to the Quranic word 'bashar' other than 'man' and this is why it can only mean Allah created man from clay (And nothing in between). And he goes on to say that believing that it was anything else (any other species before man) from clay will be kufr:

. I say "the first human," because the Arabic term bashar used in the verse "Truly, I will create a man from clay" means precisely a human being and has no other lexical significance.

... As for claim that man has evolved from a non-human species, this is unbelief (kufr) no matter if we ascribe the process to Allah or to "nature," because it negates the truth of Adam's special creation that Allah has revealed in the Qur'an.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/evolve.htm
The opinion of the takfiri shaikh you mention is not a factor in my calculations if his opinion goes against the clear signs which Allah :swt: has revealed to us. It is what Allah :swt: guides us to and enjoins upon us that is to be considered with humility in our choices if we are to be successful in this world and in the aakhirah.

....Amma ba'd....

How Adam was in paradise before he was caused to come to earth - is not necessarily the same as he was when he was made to appear on earth - Just as it is true that the offspring of Adam were taken from his back and made to testify to the Mastery of Allah :swt: - but were caused to come into being on earth over millenia or more - through a biological process very similar to that of other creatures -especially mammals. All indications - including Quranic - point to a process of appearance on earth - and i believe that Adam too came to earth through a biological process - (unlike the way mr. Bean is portrayed in the intro) and was given guidance when it was his time as the first species described as insaan - just as Musa was chosen before his birth and brought up under the sight of Allah :swt: and guided to his role - after the inspiration to his mother, floating through the nile, growing up in the house of pharaoh, killing a man, living in Madian.....

Ta Ha 20:39

أَنِ ٱقْذِفِيهِ فِى ٱلتَّابُوتِ فَٱقْذِفِيهِ فِى ٱلْيَمِّ فَلْيُلْقِهِ ٱلْيَمُّ بِٱلسَّاحِلِ يَأْخُذْهُ عَدُوٌّ لِّى وَعَدُوٌّ لَّهُۥۚ وَأَلْقَيْتُ عَلَيْكَ مَحَبَّةً مِّنِّى وَلِتُصْنَعَ عَلَىٰ عَيْنِىٓ

"'Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank, and he will be taken up by one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him': But I cast (the garment of) love over thee from Me: and (this) in order that thou mayest be reared under Mine eye.


Ta Ha 20:40

إِذْ تَمْشِىٓ أُخْتُكَ فَتَقُولُ هَلْ أَدُلُّكُمْ عَلَىٰ مَن يَكْفُلُهُۥۖ فَرَجَعْنَٰكَ إِلَىٰٓ أُمِّكَ كَىْ تَقَرَّ عَيْنُهَا وَلَا تَحْزَنَۚ وَقَتَلْتَ نَفْسًا فَنَجَّيْنَٰكَ مِنَ ٱلْغَمِّ وَفَتَنَّٰكَ فُتُونًاۚ فَلَبِثْتَ سِنِينَ فِىٓ أَهْلِ مَدْيَنَ ثُمَّ جِئْتَ عَلَىٰ قَدَرٍ يَٰمُوسَىٰ

"Behold! thy sister goeth forth and saith, 'shall I show you one who will nurse and rear the (child)?' So We brought thee back to thy mother, that her eye might be cooled and she should not grieve. Then thou didst slay a man, but We saved thee from trouble, and We tried thee in various ways. Then didst thou tarry a number of years with the people of Midian. Then didst thou come hither as ordained, O Moses!




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYOWIdPHXts



Aal-e-Imran 3:59

إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَىٰ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ كَمَثَلِ ءَادَمَۖ خَلَقَهُۥ مِن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُۥ كُن فَيَكُونُ

The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.


Maryam 19:16

وَٱذْكُرْ فِى ٱلْكِتَٰبِ مَرْيَمَ إِذِ ٱنتَبَذَتْ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا مَكَانًا شَرْقِيًّا

Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East

....

Maryam 19:21

قَالَ كَذَٰلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَىَّ هَيِّنٌۖ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُۥٓ ءَايَةً لِّلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّاۚ وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا

He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

....Maryam 19:22

فَحَمَلَتْهُ فَٱنتَبَذَتْ بِهِۦ مَكَانًا قَصِيًّا

So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

Maryam 19:23

فَأَجَآءَهَا ٱلْمَخَاضُ إِلَىٰ جِذْعِ ٱلنَّخْلَةِ قَالَتْ يَٰلَيْتَنِى مِتُّ قَبْلَ هَٰذَا وَكُنتُ نَسْيًا مَّنسِيًّا

And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"

Maryam 19:24

فَنَادَىٰهَا مِن تَحْتِهَآ أَلَّا تَحْزَنِى قَدْ جَعَلَ رَبُّكِ تَحْتَكِ سَرِيًّا

But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;

Maryam 19:25

وَهُزِّىٓ إِلَيْكِ بِجِذْعِ ٱلنَّخْلَةِ تُسَٰقِطْ عَلَيْكِ رُطَبًا جَنِيًّا

"And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.

Maryam 19:26

فَكُلِى وَٱشْرَبِى وَقَرِّى عَيْنًاۖ فَإِمَّا تَرَيِنَّ مِنَ ٱلْبَشَرِ أَحَدًا فَقُولِىٓ إِنِّى نَذَرْتُ لِلرَّحْمَٰنِ صَوْمًا فَلَنْ أُكَلِّمَ ٱلْيَوْمَ إِنسِيًّا

"So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"

.....

Al-Isra' 17:94

وَمَا مَنَعَ ٱلنَّاسَ أَن يُؤْمِنُوٓا۟ إِذْ جَآءَهُمُ ٱلْهُدَىٰٓ إِلَّآ أَن قَالُوٓا۟ أَبَعَثَ ٱللَّهُ بَشَرًا رَّسُولًا

What kept people back from belief when Guidance came to them, was nothing but this: they said, "Has Allah sent a man as a Messenger?"
Reply

MazharShafiq
06-19-2019, 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
@Ümit
True, and i genuinely very much appreciate the fact that you give that critical point of view on behalf of other Muslims which speaks to readers who may roll their eyes and say "what.....ever" ,

But..... it is useful to take into account that the Prophet :saws: lived in the Arabian Peninsula and his initial job was local shepherding, and his second significant job was travelling north in caravans for trade in cattle - and these places were quite dry, so to imagine him musing about all that stuff accurately without making mistakes is an accumulating pointer -even if not evidence- to his not having been speaking of himself.

These people used to have to travel very far out just to learn to swim in large pools of water for military training during the time of 'Umar ibn al khattaab :ra: - otherwse it was mainly wells, pitchers, and an occasional much celebrated fountain.

Also - the fact that it is mentioned in a matter of fact manner in parable to the situation of people lost in layers of hawaa for judgement is an evidence that it wasn't being promoted as a scientific wow in and of itself - rather, the subtle nature of the parable itself is the astounding part which forces a person to stop and think of the psychology of those whose judgements have no firm grounding and whose minds are in a state of self and secular media induced turbulence.

I honestly can't think of a more fitting parable in context of the psychology.
yes absolutely right thinking.
Reply

Ahmed.
06-24-2019, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
The opinion of the takfiri shaikh you mention is not a factor in my calculations if his opinion goes against the clear signs which Allah :swt: has revealed to us. It is what Allah :swt: guides us to and enjoins upon us that is to be considered with humility in our choices if we are to be successful in this world and in the aakhirah.

....Amma ba'd....

How Adam was in paradise before he was caused to come to earth - is not necessarily the same as he was when he was made to appear on earth - Just as it is true that the offspring of Adam were taken from his back and made to testify to the Mastery of Allah :swt: - but were caused to come into being on earth over millenia or more - through a biological process very similar to that of other creatures -especially mammals. All indications - including Quranic - point to a process of appearance on earth - and i believe that Adam too came to earth through a biological process - (unlike the way mr. Bean is portrayed in the intro) and was given guidance when it was his time as the first species described as insaan - just as Musa was chosen before his birth and brought up under the sight of Allah :swt: and guided to his role - after the inspiration to his mother, floating through the nile, growing up in the house of pharaoh, killing a man, living in Madian.....

Ta Ha 20:39

أَنِ ٱقْذِفِيهِ فِى ٱلتَّابُوتِ فَٱقْذِفِيهِ فِى ٱلْيَمِّ فَلْيُلْقِهِ ٱلْيَمُّ بِٱلسَّاحِلِ يَأْخُذْهُ عَدُوٌّ لِّى وَعَدُوٌّ لَّهُۥۚ وَأَلْقَيْتُ عَلَيْكَ مَحَبَّةً مِّنِّى وَلِتُصْنَعَ عَلَىٰ عَيْنِىٓ

"'Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank, and he will be taken up by one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him': But I cast (the garment of) love over thee from Me: and (this) in order that thou mayest be reared under Mine eye.


Ta Ha 20:40

إِذْ تَمْشِىٓ أُخْتُكَ فَتَقُولُ هَلْ أَدُلُّكُمْ عَلَىٰ مَن يَكْفُلُهُۥۖ فَرَجَعْنَٰكَ إِلَىٰٓ أُمِّكَ كَىْ تَقَرَّ عَيْنُهَا وَلَا تَحْزَنَۚ وَقَتَلْتَ نَفْسًا فَنَجَّيْنَٰكَ مِنَ ٱلْغَمِّ وَفَتَنَّٰكَ فُتُونًاۚ فَلَبِثْتَ سِنِينَ فِىٓ أَهْلِ مَدْيَنَ ثُمَّ جِئْتَ عَلَىٰ قَدَرٍ يَٰمُوسَىٰ

"Behold! thy sister goeth forth and saith, 'shall I show you one who will nurse and rear the (child)?' So We brought thee back to thy mother, that her eye might be cooled and she should not grieve. Then thou didst slay a man, but We saved thee from trouble, and We tried thee in various ways. Then didst thou tarry a number of years with the people of Midian. Then didst thou come hither as ordained, O Moses!




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYOWIdPHXts



Aal-e-Imran 3:59

إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَىٰ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ كَمَثَلِ ءَادَمَۖ خَلَقَهُۥ مِن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُۥ كُن فَيَكُونُ

The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.


Maryam 19:16

وَٱذْكُرْ فِى ٱلْكِتَٰبِ مَرْيَمَ إِذِ ٱنتَبَذَتْ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا مَكَانًا شَرْقِيًّا

Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East

....

Maryam 19:21

قَالَ كَذَٰلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَىَّ هَيِّنٌۖ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُۥٓ ءَايَةً لِّلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّاۚ وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا

He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

....Maryam 19:22

فَحَمَلَتْهُ فَٱنتَبَذَتْ بِهِۦ مَكَانًا قَصِيًّا

So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

Maryam 19:23

فَأَجَآءَهَا ٱلْمَخَاضُ إِلَىٰ جِذْعِ ٱلنَّخْلَةِ قَالَتْ يَٰلَيْتَنِى مِتُّ قَبْلَ هَٰذَا وَكُنتُ نَسْيًا مَّنسِيًّا

And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"

Maryam 19:24

فَنَادَىٰهَا مِن تَحْتِهَآ أَلَّا تَحْزَنِى قَدْ جَعَلَ رَبُّكِ تَحْتَكِ سَرِيًّا

But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;

Maryam 19:25

وَهُزِّىٓ إِلَيْكِ بِجِذْعِ ٱلنَّخْلَةِ تُسَٰقِطْ عَلَيْكِ رُطَبًا جَنِيًّا

"And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.

Maryam 19:26

فَكُلِى وَٱشْرَبِى وَقَرِّى عَيْنًاۖ فَإِمَّا تَرَيِنَّ مِنَ ٱلْبَشَرِ أَحَدًا فَقُولِىٓ إِنِّى نَذَرْتُ لِلرَّحْمَٰنِ صَوْمًا فَلَنْ أُكَلِّمَ ٱلْيَوْمَ إِنسِيًّا

"So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"

.....

Al-Isra' 17:94

وَمَا مَنَعَ ٱلنَّاسَ أَن يُؤْمِنُوٓا۟ إِذْ جَآءَهُمُ ٱلْهُدَىٰٓ إِلَّآ أَن قَالُوٓا۟ أَبَعَثَ ٱللَّهُ بَشَرًا رَّسُولًا

What kept people back from belief when Guidance came to them, was nothing but this: they said, "Has Allah sent a man as a Messenger?"
the term 'takfiri' is used for extremists like isis and alqaeeda or even those khilafa fanatics anjem choudry lot so it doesn't suit this mainstream Shafiee Shaykh. He infact has an article on takfir where he warns against careless takfir: see https://archive.org/stream/NuhHaMimK...akfir_djvu.txt

His kufr verdict here implies that there is possibly a consensus on this as if there was a valid opinion amongst the four madhabs that it's not kufr then a madhabi scholar doesn't say that it's kufr
Reply

Abz2000
06-24-2019, 05:19 PM
The term takfir actually has a meaning (look it up) and was used in proper context in my previous post.
The four respectable madhab scholars are neither God, nor prophets, were not alive during the time when the recent information on research and genetic research became available, and were not 'allaam-al-ghuyoob.

Islam is not a stagnant religion - but rather it is deen al HAQQ, and it is a living way of life where the primary requirement is to submit to al Haqq, and not to al baatuil.

Those who argue against the obvious Haqq by clinging on to the opinions of their forefathers despite the clear signs from Allah :swt: are simply bandwagon riding sheeple who go into meltdown when confronted by al-Haqq.

Al Haqq is one of the attributes of Allah :swt:
It is therefore wise to seek al Haqq - and to disregard personal whims and false hawaa which lead to baatuil.

Also beware of those who fall into the traps of the likes of Abu Jahl who would hound people who began to excercise their minds correctly, by emotionally blackmailing and threatening them through asking them if they were claiming that the religion of Abd al Muttalib and their other forefathers was wrong. Those who think clearly know that being a forefather doesn't essentially make a person correct in all opinions - rather - Allah :swt: who knows the unseen and the seen is always the author of complete Al-Haqq, and is in essence Al Haqq -and nobody else's opinion can override Al Haqq via contradiction.

Accepting the Haqq requires humility, and this is difficult for those whose over-inflated egos lead them to oppose al Haqq.

Think.
Reply

yasoooo
06-25-2019, 06:39 AM
the Universe

At a time when the science of Astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described in Quran:

“And it is We who have built the Universe with [Our creative] power and keep expanding it.” (Quran 51:47)

The fact that the universe is expanding was discovered in the last century. The physicist Stephen Hawking in his book ‘A Brief History of Time’ writes, “The discovery that the universe is expanding was one of the great intellectual revolutions of the 20th century.”.

The Quran mentioned the expansion of the universe even before the invention of the telescope!
The expansion of universe according to Quran-Dr.Zaghloul Al Najjar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qPim5Z1UMw
Creation and expansion of the universe mentioned in the quran .wmv

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiFQvzGkHzQ
Reply

Ahmed.
06-25-2019, 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
The term takfir actually has a meaning (look it up) and was used in proper context in my previous post.
The four respectable madhab scholars are neither God, nor prophets, were not alive during the time when the recent information on research and genetic research became available, and were not 'allaam-al-ghuyoob.

Islam is not a stagnant religion - but rather it is deen al HAQQ, and it is a living way of life where the primary requirement is to submit to al Haqq, and not to al baatuil.

Those who argue against the obvious Haqq by clinging on to the opinions of their forefathers despite the clear signs from Allah :swt: are simply bandwagon riding sheeple who go into meltdown when confronted by al-Haqq.

Al Haqq is one of the attributes of Allah :swt:
It is therefore wise to seek al Haqq - and to disregard personal whims and false hawaa which lead to baatuil.

Also beware of those who fall into the traps of the likes of Abu Jahl who would hound people who began to excercise their minds correctly, by emotionally blackmailing and threatening them through asking them if they were claiming that the religion of Abd al Muttalib and their other forefathers was wrong. Those who think clearly know that being a forefather doesn't essentially make a person correct in all opinions - rather - Allah :swt: who knows the unseen and the seen is always the author of complete Al-Haqq, and is in essence Al Haqq -and nobody else's opinion can override Al Haqq via contradiction.

Accepting the Haqq requires humility, and this is difficult for those whose over-inflated egos lead them to oppose al Haqq.

Think.
MaashAllah that's some good thinking there bro, however let me give you my perspective here:

A hadith says the way to recognise the correct 'sect' is that they will consist of the majority of Scholars, and the four madhabs who adhere to ashari/Maruridi creed have the majority of Scholars.

Shaykh Nuh Keller knows this very well so he will not do or say anything regarding the deen that is not in conformity with the consensus.

This is why I worry for anyone who does not treat this kufr opinion very seriously. The Shaykh is also a Master in Arabic and has explained the only lexical meaning of the word 'bashr' in Quran is 'Man', therefore since Allah has said He has made Bashr from clay then that is what we have to believe and not that Allah first made a molecule and then a tadpole and then amphibian etc etc and then apes and from that, man.

Now I don't want to continue this talk about 'sects' anymore as it could lead to arguments and just have mentioned it here to emphasise the importance that this opinion should not be taken lightly because it's really just a matter of the majority of Scholars opinion vs the minority's

Here's the hadith in question;

1) Imam Abu Dawood (Rahimahullah) has quoted the well known Hadith concerning the division of the Muslim Ummah into seventy-three sects in his Sunan (3/4580, English edn):

Abu Amir al-Hawdhani said, “Mu’awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan (may Allah be pleased with him) stood among us and said, ‘Beware! The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) stood among us and said’: ‘Beware! The People of the Book before (you) were split up into 72 sects, and this community will be split up into 73, seventy-two of them will go to Hell and one of them will go to Paradise, and it is the majority group (Jama’ah).’
Reply

Abz2000
06-25-2019, 02:43 PM
When the Prophets were sent to banee Isra-eel -the majority of scholars who had high positions (not the actual majority of real scholars who prudently spoke quietly amongst their families and locals) opposed them, this didn't invalidate the haqq -but rather clarified the situation to the thinkers amonst the masses, king mu'aawiyah and king yazeed only held a majority because they had taken control of the major centers and forced the bayaah of the leadership through dictatorial means, emotional blackmail, and through invoking the fear of fitnah - their narrations should be taken with scepticism and extreme caution. Also king Mu'awiyah opposed the prophet :saws: until he was checkmated in makkah and faced losing his status and wealth, and Allah :swt: clarifies that king mu'awiyyah is not equal -but rather inferior to those who fought and spent before fath al makkah -therefore it is obvious that there were more rightful believers to the position of leadership.

Regarding the question of apes, they may be a separate offshoot in the biological tree, and apparently quite far off in terms of intelligence and capability -since they survived the turf wars as insaan took khilaafah.

I am attempting to reason with logic and i accept the oneness of Allah and the truth of His messengers via logical reasoning - otherwise my faith would be akin to that of bandwaggon hoppers who can be persuaded to reject any obvious truth simply by an appeal to accept flawed (even if well meaning) precedent. The way of the true believers and ul al albaab was always to look at, evaluate, and then accept the haqq even if it meant going against the flawed opinions of their family, tribe, group, ancestors, and cherished -long-established institutions - due to the fact that the primary factor in their calculations was al Haqq.

Assuming that we already accept that "biological" and "non-biological" matter and beings from what the earth produces come in pairs (ch36).....

....The first verse from chapter 4 of the Quran (an-nisaa-) can be used as evidence for the claim that Adam came to exist on earth differently to how he initially came to exist in heaven (bearing in mind that "haa" feminine is used for animate female and also inanimate) :

An-Nisa' 4:1

يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ ٱتَّقُوا۟ رَبَّكُمُ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَكُم مِّن نَّفْسٍ
وَٰحِدَةٍ
وَخَلَقَ مِنْ
هَا
زَوْجَ
هَا
وَبَثَّ مِنْهُمَا رِجَالًا كَثِيرًا وَنِسَآءًۚ وَٱتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ ٱلَّذِى تَسَآءَلُونَ بِهِۦ وَٱلْأَرْحَامَۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ عَلَيْكُمْ رَقِيبًا

English - Yusuf Ali

O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.

English - Sahih International

O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah, through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer.

get Quran App:https://goo.gl/w6rESk
Reply

Abz2000
06-25-2019, 05:03 PM
See also:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denisovan


And:
https://www.khanacademy.org/science/...dna-sequencing



https://www.newscientist.com/article...-human-history


https://www.io9.gizmodo.com/another-...ans-a-5715516/
Reply

yasoooo
07-02-2019, 06:20 AM
فتاة مسيحية تعتنق الاسلام و تبكي مع الداعيه شمسي مترجم
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iTA91jyvKo&t=4s

الداعيه شمسي يشرح لشاب مسيحي محمد في الانجيل مترحم new

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUE0WIrFxio&t=9s


صبي يعتنق الاسلام مع الداعية شمسي مترجم ||||| الهايد بارك

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nReeloqdKMY&t=109s



شاب يسال ذاكر نايك لماذا نقلد النبي محمد | مترجم
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lerRxBEyfR0&t=31s
Reply

yasoooo
07-09-2019, 06:17 AM
Mountains

The Quran draws our attention to a very important characteristic of mountains:

“Did We not make the earth a resting place? And the mountains as stakes?” (Quran 78:6-7)

The Quran indicates that mountains have deep roots by using the word stakes to describe them. In fact mountains do have deep roots, and the word stakes is an accurate description for them. A book titled ‘Earth’ by Geophysicist Frank Press explains that mountains are like stakes, and are buried deep under the surface of the earth. Mount Everest (pictured below), the height of which is approximately 9 km above ground, has a root deeper than 125 km.

The fact that mountains have deep ‘stake’ like roots was not known, until after the development of the theory of plate tectonics in the beginning of the 20th century.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUaxHUsne7I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHIjPl0EfT0


Sky’s Protection

The sky plays a crucial role in protecting the earth. The sky protects the earth from the lethal rays of the sun. If the sky did not exist then the sun’s radiation would have killed off all life on earth. It also acts like a blanket wrapped around the earth, to protect it from the freezing cold of space. The temperature just above the sky is approximately -270oC. If this temperature was to reach earth then the planet would freeze over instantly. The sky also protects life on earth by warming the surface through heat retention (greenhouse effect), and reducing temperature extremes between day and night[5]. These are some of the many protective functions of the sky.

The Quran asks us to consider the sky in the following verse:

“We made the sky a protective ceiling. And yet they are turning away from Our signs!” (Quran 21:32)

The Quran points to the sky’s protection as a sign of God. The protective properties of the sky were discovered by scientific research conducted in the 20th century.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H5bH97m5IY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj_rCiw9jnc
Reply

yasoooo
07-16-2019, 06:53 AM
Iron

Iron is not natural to the earth. It did not form on the earth but came down to earth from outer space. This may sound strange but it’s true. Scientists have found that billions of years ago the earth was stuck by meteorites. These meteorites were carrying Iron from distant stars which had exploded[4].

The Quran says the following on the origin of Iron:

“We sent down Iron with its great inherent strength and its many benefits for humankind.” (Quran 57:25)

God uses the words ‘sent down’ for Iron. It is clear from the verse that Iron is not an earthly material, but was sent down for the benefit of humanity. The fact that Iron came down to earth from outer space is something which could not be known by the primitive science of the 7th century.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUA0EGTGFtg

Origin of Life

Water is essential for all living things. We all know that water is vital to life but the Quran makes a very unusual claim:

We made every living thing from water? Will they not believe? (Quran 21:30)

In this verse water is pointed out as the origin of all life. All living things are made of cells. We now know that cells are mostly made up of water[3]. For example, 80% of the cytoplasm (basic cell material) of a standard animal cell is described as water in biology textbooks.

The fact that living things consist mostly of water was discovered only after the invention of the microscope. In the deserts of Arabia, the last thing someone would have guessed is that all life came from water.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCnF3xbrU9o
Reply

Ahmed.
07-16-2019, 12:20 PM
MaashAllah that's great brother! Keep up the good work of posting these miracles

Islam has been spread by miracles and without it, it become just another religion
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
MaashAllah that's great brother! Keep up the good work of posting these miracles

Islam has been spread by miracles and without it, it become just another religion

How do you know when an event has been influenced by a god?
Reply

Ahmed.
07-17-2019, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
How do you know when an event has been influenced by a god?
Do you mean how do we know it's a miracle?

Miracles can only be done by God so that's how we know
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Do you mean how do we know it's a miracle?

Miracles can only be done by God so that's how we know

What I mean is
If two events occur ... how do you know when a god affected one, but not the other ?
Reply

Ahmed.
07-17-2019, 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
What I mean is
If two events occur ... how do you know when a god affected one, but not the other ?
Well we believe they'll both be God affected and that's to do with philosophy of wether anything can have an intrinsic power to do anything of its own accord

And if one was miraculous, I.e. it suspended the laws of physics (such as Moses'(pbuh) stick turning to snake) then we know it was a miracle from God
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Well we believe they'll both be God affected and that's to do with philosophy of wether anything can have an intrinsic power to do anything of its own accord

And if one was miraculous, I.e. it suspended the laws of physics (such as Moses'(pbuh) stick turning to snake) then we know it was a miracle from God
I understand that you believe.
But how would you know .

How do you know when a god is involved.

I understand you believe Moses turned a stick into a snake ... but you can’t know that
Reply

Ahmed.
07-17-2019, 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
I understand that you believe.
But how would you know .

How do you know when a god is involved.

I understand you believe Moses turned a stick into a snake ... but you can’t know that
We know it as God manifests the Truth of it in our hearts, I.e. we witness it in our hearts with absolute clarity and certainty

E.g. if a person sees a ghost and is sure what he saw, he will know that he saw it but as other people didn't witness the same and have only his word for it, they may not 'know' but that doesn't change the fact that the witness knows
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
We know it as God manifests the Truth of it in our hearts, I.e. we witness it in our hearts with absolute clarity and certainty

E.g. if a person sees a ghost and is sure what he saw, he will know that he saw it but as other people didn't witness the same and have only his word for it, they may not 'know' but that doesn't change the fact that the witness knows

What you are talking about is personal testimony .
How is you claiming you “ know “ when your god does something , differ from people of other faiths who claim to “ know” when their god interacts with the world .

All religions make these sorts of claims.

Would you agree that it’s possible for people to believe these kinds of religious claims ... even though they have no basis in reality
Reply

Ahmed.
07-17-2019, 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
What you are talking about is personal testimony .
How is you claiming you “ know “ when your god does something , differ from people of other faiths who claim to “ know” when their god interacts with the world .

All religions make these sorts of claims.

Would you agree that it’s possible for people to believe these kinds of religious claims ... even though they have no basis in reality
Infact if you look into it you'd see that the vast majority of people of other faiths do not claim to 'know' and they just guess their religion is true... I've put this to the test and hard-core evangelical Christians have admitted they cannot be absolutely certain of the Truth of their faith... the Quran says that non Muslims just follow conjecture

Muslims are the only people who claim to know without a shred of doubt that's because they're the only people who have really witnessed the Truth...I.e. They have the light of faith in their hearts via which this truth becomes manifest
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-17-2019, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
What you are talking about is personal testimony .
How is you claiming you “ know “ when your god does something , differ from people of other faiths who claim to “ know” when their god interacts with the world .

All religions make these sorts of claims.

Would you agree that it’s possible for people to believe these kinds of religious claims ... even though they have no basis in reality
You are absolutely right to ask this question. God sent many prophets with miracles, nations of those prophets did see these miracles and some believed those were from God and many still did not. You have absolute right to ask this question that I have not seen these miracles so how can I believe that the stories in Bible or Quran are true? This is a great question and it shows you don't want to have a blind faith. God has created us with intellect and have given us all senses to rationalize things around us and come to faith with reasoning and logic.

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was given many miracles just like Prophets in the past. He split the moon in half for example but again did you and I witnessed it? No we did not. So what is the miracle which is living and we can all witness to believe. That miracle my friend is Quran. I already saw that some brother gave you some link to scientific facts in Quran. But the first thing we need to establish is Quran preserved or has it been altered just like Bible has been? We can go into in depth details of how Quran has been written and preserved or we can take a more simple and straight forward approach. There is no doubt that Quran has been preserved in writing but it is also been preserved from day 1 by memorization. There are hundreds and thousands of Muslims who have memorized Quran in every generation. With so many memorizers of Quran in every generation, it is impossible to make change of even a single letter to the Quran because the people who have memorized it can identify this change immediately. This proves Quran has been preserved perfectly and that is a miracle to preserve Quran in hearts of so many people in every generation. On top of that mother tongue of majority of these memorizers is not Arabic. Many memorizers finish memorizing Quran between the age of 5-10 years. These are the facts you can easily look up and experience if you go to any mosque. Now if we agree to burn all religious book today, I am sure no one can produce any religious book as is other than Quran. That is nothing but a miracle. This one thing you and I can experience in our age and time. Once we agree on this then we can look at the scientific facts as well.

Knowing that Quran is preserved 1400+ years ago, it has many verses which did not make any sense to students of science up until last century. Such as Quran describes stages of human development in the mothers womb so precisely that Dr. Keith Moore ( you can look up Dr. Keith Moore videos on Quran and Embryology on YouTube) was astonished and he ended up accepting Islam after years of his research. Note these facts on embryology has been establish very recently by use of very powerful tools (Xrays etc.) which did not exist 1400 years ago. Quran also mentioned that universe is expanding and this is also a very recent established fact. Quran mentioned finger prints and again this is something only known to us in last 100 years or so. Quran mentioned Big bang, water cycle, pain receptors in human skin and list can go on and on.

Please note I am not trying to prove Quran with science and Quran is not at all a scientific book. For Muslims anything is Quran is word of God even if it is not proven by today's science but for non-Muslims I need to provide reference to some facts which science recently established but are mentioned in Quran 1400 years ago. This is just to convince someone who has stronger believe in science. Not every non-Muslim, however, is expressed by scientific facts mentioned in Quran. I advise them to read Quran at their own. I am sure as long as you are honest, you will find answers to your question within the Quran.

We are here to help explain if there is any question but at the end of the day Allah has given you free will to choose and there is never any compulsion in the matter of religion. Faith should come with conviction and from heart.
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Infact if you look into it you'd see that the vast majority of people of other faiths do not claim to 'know' and they just guess their religion is true... I've put this to the test and hard-core evangelical Christians have admitted they cannot be absolutely certain of the Truth of their faith... the Quran says that non Muslims just follow conjecture

Muslims are the only people who claim to know without a shred of doubt that's because they're the only people who have really witnessed the Truth...I.e. They have the light of faith in their hearts via which this truth becomes manifest

Well to be fair we cannot know anything 100%

And there are many people of other faiths that claim to know that their gods are real , not just the popular faiths now , but throughout history.

People don’t guess that their religion is true ... they believe it is true , for a variety of reasons,
You believe your religion is true , just like Hindus believe there’s is true , just like the Jews and Christians believe that theirs is true , as the ancient Greeks , Romans , Egyptians , Mayan’s , Incas .... they all believed that their gods were real .

They were all wrong ... given the fact humans have been inventing gods and creating religions .... don’t you think it’s possible that your god and religion is equally an invention
Reply

Ahmed.
07-17-2019, 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Well to be fair we cannot know anything 100%

And there are many people of other faiths that claim to know that their gods are real , not just the popular faiths now , but throughout history.

People don’t guess that their religion is true ... they believe it is true , for a variety of reasons,
You believe your religion is true , just like Hindus believe there’s is true , just like the Jews and Christians believe that theirs is true , as the ancient Greeks , Romans , Egyptians , Mayan’s , Incas .... they all believed that their gods were real .

They were all wrong ... given the fact humans have been inventing gods and creating religions .... don’t you think it’s possible that your god and religion is equally an invention
As I've said, I've put it to the test so why don't you? Ask people of other religions whether they believe 100% without doubt and see what they say.

Your assumption about Muslims' beliefs really comes down to that example I have given earlier, you may think we just believe and not know, but that doesn't change the fact that we do know:)

Also a casual look into other religions reveals the inconsistencies, the contradictions, the obvious mythologies that they are, unlike Islam which is the only religion without contradictions and which doesn't contradict logic and science either

It's not possible that our faith is mistaken as we have too much overwhelming evidence of its truth and on top of all that there is the inner-vision of witnessing that truth that I've told you about, so we know it's true just like anyone knows 2+2=4 :)
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
As I've said, I've put it to the test so why don't you? Ask people of other religions whether they believe 100% without doubt and see what they say.

Your assumption about Muslims' beliefs really comes down to that example I have given earlier, you may think we just believe and not know, but that doesn't change the fact that we do know:)

Also a casual look into other religions reveals the inconsistencies, the contradictions, the obvious mythologies that they are, unlike Islam which is the only religion without contradictions and which doesn't contradict logic and science either

It's not possible that our faith is mistaken as we have too much overwhelming evidence of its truth and on top of all that there is the inner-vision of witnessing that truth that I've told you about, so we know it's true just like anyone knows 2+2=4 :)
If you have evidence then you should not need any faith .

I say you cannot know that your god exists ... it’s just a belief.

To demonstrate this

Could you prove to me that you are not a character in a computer program , programmed to have these beliefs
( silly I know , but it’s true not to demonstrate a point )

Could you prove that this is not the case?
Reply

Ahmed.
07-17-2019, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
If you have evidence then you should not need any faith .

I say you cannot know that your god exists ... it’s just a belief.

To demonstrate this

Could you prove to me that you are not a character in a computer program , programmed to have these beliefs
( silly I know , but it’s true not to demonstrate a point )

Could you prove that this is not the case?
Ah, but here is where we have a different definition to 'faith' then other religions. So as you can see in other religions their very definition of faith means to believe in something there is no proof for, indicating the guessing nature of their beliefs

But our definition is to believe in something based on evidence
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Ah, but here is where we have a different definition to 'faith' then other religions. So as you can see in other religions their very definition of faith means to believe in something there is no proof for, indicating the guessing nature of their beliefs

But our definition is to believe in something based on evidence
That’s not true , there are Christians that believe their faith is based on evidence.

Can faith lead you to faulty conclusions ?
Judging by the amount of religions in the world it would seem the answer is yes ... faith is not a reliable path to truth .

What about the second point ... can you prove that you are not part of a computer programme
Reply

Eric H
07-17-2019, 10:35 PM
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75
Originally Posted by chalks75
Could you prove to me that you are not a character in a computer program , programmed to have these beliefs
( silly I know , but it’s true not to demonstrate a point )
The creation of the universe is history, either at least one God created the universe, or there is no creator god. We can't change history by having a wrong belief, so where is the truth?

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'
Eric
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75


The creation of the universe is history, either at least one God created the universe, or there is no creator god. We can't change history by having a wrong belief, so where is the truth?

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'
Eric
Truth is thing things that can be supported by evidence.

If you cannot show that’s it’s true , you should not claim that’s it’s true .

Can you demonstrate the truth of the statement

Some god exists
Some god created the universe

If you could demonstrate the truth of both or either of those statements ... it would be the greatest discovery of mankind.

I note , you still have not told me how you could prove that you are not just a computer programme developed last week , and programmed to have those beliefs.

If you cannot even prove that’s not true , how could you possibly hope to prove ... that’s not true + there is a god that created the universe
Reply

Ümit
07-18-2019, 09:45 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Truth is thing things that can be supported by evidence.

If you cannot show that’s it’s true , you should not claim that’s it’s true .

Can you demonstrate the truth of the statement

Some god exists
Some god created the universe

If you could demonstrate the truth of both or either of those statements ... it would be the greatest discovery of mankind.

I note , you still have not told me how you could prove that you are not just a computer programme developed last week , and programmed to have those beliefs.

If you cannot even prove that’s not true , how could you possibly hope to prove ... that’s not true + there is a god that created the universe
sorry but truth has nothing to do with evidence. in court they always try to find evidence (alibi) to hide the truth (their crime).
then there is prove. one evidence is not always enough to prove something. a lot of people are in jail because they are falsely proven guilty....but the truth is different.
and besides...what do you accept as evidence?
an illiterate man in the desert who can dictate an entire book accurately with a lot of statements in which untill today seems to be true...or at least none of these statements can be proven false...is that evidence enough or not?
the existence of all life...suns...stars...the whole universe....which is highly impossible to be developped out of coincidence...statistically impossible...is that evidence enough to prove God or not? you would say no...but İ would say yes.
that is what its about...denying evidence....denying the truth.
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 11:12 AM
Originally Posted by Ümit
sorry but truth has nothing to do with evidence. in court they always try to find evidence (alibi) to hide the truth (their crime).
then there is prove. one evidence is not always enough to prove something. a lot of people are in jail because they are falsely proven guilty....but the truth is different.
and besides...what do you accept as evidence?
an illiterate man in the desert who can dictate an entire book accurately with a lot of statements in which untill today seems to be true...or at least none of these statements can be proven false...is that evidence enough or not?
the existence of all life...suns...stars...the whole universe....which is highly impossible to be developped out of coincidence...statistically impossible...is that evidence enough to prove God or not? you would say no...but İ would say yes.
that is what its about...denying evidence....denying the truth.
Truth has nothing to do with evidence , that is absurd ( I’m hoping English is not your first language so you don’t fully understand what you have written)

In court ,
Evidence is presented in an attempt to establish the truth.
One side presents evidence in an attempt to convince the jury that the claim is true ( the claim being the defendant is guilty )
The other side presents evidence to persuade the jury that the claim is not true .
( defendant is not guilty )
* please note this does not mean the defendant is innocent.

So to your claim that Muhammad was illiterate ... what evidence can you present that would convince me that , that claim is true .. apart from the claim itself
( a claim cannot be evidence of Itself)

Are there no scientific inaccuracies in the Quran ?
Reply

Eric H
07-18-2019, 01:02 PM
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75

Originally Posted by chalks75
Truth has nothing to do with evidence , that is absurd
The universe came into being somehow, there has to be an explanation that is the 'truth'. The truth is the truth whether you have evidence or not; you cannot change history.

If you have faulty or incomplete evidence, then you cannot find truth.

Originally Posted by chalks75
In court ,
Evidence is presented in an attempt to establish the truth.
One side presents evidence in an attempt to convince the jury that the claim is true ( the claim being the defendant is guilty )
The other side presents evidence to persuade the jury that the claim is not true .
( defendant is not guilty )
* please note this does not mean the defendant is innocent.
You have just describes how 'truth' suffers when clever people argue.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'
Eric
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75



The universe came into being somehow, there has to be an explanation that is the 'truth'. The truth is the truth whether you have evidence or not; you cannot change history.

If you have faulty or incomplete evidence, then you cannot find truth.



You have just describes how 'truth' suffers when clever people argue.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'
Eric

“ the universe came into being somehow “
You don’t know that , the universe could be eternal.

But you are correct , something is either true or not true .
How do we determine what is true ... we look at the evidence .

Sometimes the truth is uncovered because clever people argue.

The problem with using “ a god” as an explanation , you define what a god is.
A god is , what you define a god to be.

Don’t you see the problem here.
Reply

Eric H
07-18-2019, 05:25 PM
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;

Originally Posted by chalks75
The problem with using “ a god” as an explanation , you define what a god is.
A god is , what you define a god to be.
God created the heavens and the Earth, he always was, always is and always will be.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
Reply

Ümit
07-18-2019, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
“ the universe came into being somehow “
You don’t know that , the universe could be eternal.

But you are correct , something is either true or not true .
How do we determine what is true ... we look at the evidence .

Sometimes the truth is uncovered because clever people argue.

The problem with using “ a god” as an explanation , you define what a god is.
A god is , what you define a god to be.

Don’t you see the problem here.
the best "evidence" you have for the universe is the big bang theory...which explains that the universe had a beginning so it was not eternal...but again a perfect example how evidence relate to the truth.

about the illiterate prophet sas...almost all scholars muslim or nonmuslim agree on that point. just investigate a little and you will find out...but whether you accept that as evidence...that is another point...again....difference between evidence...proof...and truth.
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by Ümit
the best "evidence" you have for the universe is the big bang theory...which explains that the universe had a beginning so it was not eternal...but again a perfect example how evidence relate to the truth.

about the illiterate prophet sas...almost all scholars muslim or nonmuslim agree on that point. just investigate a little and you will find out...but whether you accept that as evidence...that is another point...again....difference between evidence...proof...and truth.

The Big Bang theory does not describe the “ beginning” of the universe , it describes the expansion of the universe.
What you said is a common misconception, hawking said “ we may as well consider the Big Bang theory as the beginning, since it’s from that point we can make our measurements “

As for your other point , Muhammad being illiterate.... how many people believe something is true has no bearing on wether it is true.

What evidence “ other than a claim in a book “ is there ?
Reply

Eric H
07-18-2019, 08:12 PM
Greetings and peace be with you chalks 75;

Originally Posted by chalks75
hawking said “ we may as well consider the Big Bang theory as the beginning, since it’s from that point we can make our measurements “
That seems pure laziness, it avoids asking where all the matter of the universe came from. Lets use logic and reason and ask that question.

Peace
Eric
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalks 75;



That seems pure laziness, it avoids asking where all the matter of the universe came from. Lets use logic and reason and ask that question.

Peace
Eric
I don’t know where all the matter and energy in the universe came from, perhaps it has always existed , perhaps it came into being from a naturalistic event , maybe a god did it, maybe we are in the matrix .

I do not know , I do not claim to know.

What I do know , is the cultures all around the world , for 10,000 years at least have been inventing “ gods” as an explanation.

I have not seen a single shred of evidence that has swayed me to believe any god is real

I believe
There are no real gods
There are only people that believe gods are real.
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-19-2019, 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Are there no scientific inaccuracies in the Quran ?
No inaccuracies of ESTABLISHED scientific facts. Scientific theories are theories, and theories are not facts.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by chalks75
I believe
There are no real gods
There are only people that believe gods are real.
Can You Prove That God Does Not Exist?
When asked this question atheists argue that it’s not up to them to provide evidence for proof of God. The problem however with their argument is that if they claim God doesn’t exist then they should provide the evidence.
If atheists have never visited every planet; or if they have never been to every part of the universe; or if they have never seen every star in outer space – then how can they prove that God does not exist?
Atheism in itself is merely a CLAIM – it is NOT a fact.
Atheism is NOT merely a lack of belief – it is an NONFACTUAL CLAIM that God does not exist because there is no proof that He doesn’t exist.

- - - Updated - - -

Should I also ask another question?

If you were to believe a God what attributes you would think God should have?
Reply

Ahmed.
07-20-2019, 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
That’s not true , there are Christians that believe their faith is based on evidence.

Can faith lead you to faulty conclusions ?
Judging by the amount of religions in the world it would seem the answer is yes ... faith is not a reliable path to truth .

What about the second point ... can you prove that you are not part of a computer programme
Ofcourse we can prove that we are not part of a computer programme as that's only some silly film called the matrix, only a nutter will think it's real life :)
Reply

chalks75
07-21-2019, 10:06 AM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
No inaccuracies of ESTABLISHED scientific facts. Scientific theories are theories, and theories are not facts.

- - - Updated - - -



Can You Prove That God Does Not Exist?
When asked this question atheists argue that it’s not up to them to provide evidence for proof of God. The problem however with their argument is that if they claim God doesn’t exist then they should provide the evidence.
If atheists have never visited every planet; or if they have never been to every part of the universe; or if they have never seen every star in outer space – then how can they prove that God does not exist?
Atheism in itself is merely a CLAIM – it is NOT a fact.
Atheism is NOT merely a lack of belief – it is an NONFACTUAL CLAIM that God does not exist because there is no proof that He doesn’t exist.

- - - Updated - - -

Should I also ask another question?

If you were to believe a God what attributes you would think God should have?
You don’t understand what a scientific theory is .
Theories explain facts.

If an atheist makes a claim that god does not exist ... then they have the burden of proof.
As it happens , I am not making that claim, I am rejecting your claim that a god exists.

If s god existed , he would guarantee that every person that has ever lived on this planet always had food to eat and water to drink.
They don’t , therefore god as I define it does not exist .

You can always define a god into existence
People have been doing that for 10,000 years at least.
Reply

chalks75
07-21-2019, 10:07 AM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Ofcourse we can prove that we are not part of a computer programme as that's only some silly film called the matrix, only a nutter will think it's real life :)
Ok prove it ,
You will have solved a problem philosophy have been wrestling with for centuries.

How would you prove we are not part of a computer programme ?
Reply

chalks75
07-21-2019, 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
No inaccuracies of ESTABLISHED scientific facts. Scientific theories are theories, and theories are not facts.

- - - Updated - - -



Can You Prove That God Does Not Exist?
When asked this question atheists argue that it’s not up to them to provide evidence for proof of God. The problem however with their argument is that if they claim God doesn’t exist then they should provide the evidence.
If atheists have never visited every planet; or if they have never been to every part of the universe; or if they have never seen every star in outer space – then how can they prove that God does not exist?
Atheism in itself is merely a CLAIM – it is NOT a fact.
Atheism is NOT merely a lack of belief – it is an NONFACTUAL CLAIM that God does not exist because there is no proof that He doesn’t exist.

- - - Updated - - -

Should I also ask another question?

If you were to believe a God what attributes you would think God should have?
“ can I prove a god does not exist “
That depends on which god you are talking about.

But generally no, I cannot prove a god does not exist.
That in no way proves a god does exist.

Can you prove leprechauns do not exist ?
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-21-2019, 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
You don’t understand what a scientific theory is .
Theories explain facts.
Facts and theories are two different things. In the scientific method, there is a clear distinction between facts, which can be observed and/or measured, and theories, which are scientists' explanations and interpretations of the facts which can be wrong. One such scientific theory was that sun is stationary but more evidence proved it otherwise. Today we know as a facts the sun also revolves in its own orbit. This is scientific fact not the theory anymore. I hope you see the difference.


If an atheist makes a claim that god does not exist ... then they have the burden of proof.
As it happens , I am not making that claim, I am rejecting your claim that a god exists.
Or can I say that you are claiming God does not exist? Is that case should the burden of proof be on you?
Reply

chalks75
07-21-2019, 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
Facts and theories are two different things. In the scientific method, there is a clear distinction between facts, which can be observed and/or measured, and theories, which are scientists' explanations and interpretations of the facts which can be wrong. One such scientific theory was that sun is stationary but more evidence proved it otherwise. Today we know as a facts the sun also revolves in its own orbit. This is scientific fact not the theory anymore. I hope you see the difference.




Or can I say that you are claiming God does not exist? Is that case should the burden of proof be on you?
I fully understated how science works .
A scientific theory , is the best explanation that can be offered given the facts .. it is not set in stone , it can be altered , but once a hypothesis achieves the honorary title of being called s theory it is unlikely it will change in any fundamental way.
Theories explain facts , they also have to have predictive powers.

The germ theory of disease
Gravitational theory
The theory of evolution
Which of these do you accept , which do you reject
Could I say you accept the ones that don’t contradict your religion and don’t accept the one that does ??
That is the very definition of confirmation bias .

And no , I am not claim gods do not exist , because gods are an unfalsifiable hypothesis .
The claims made on the behalf of gods are not .

I do not claim there are no gods ,
I reject your assertion that there is.
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-22-2019, 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
I fully understated how science works .
A scientific theory , is the best explanation that can be offered given the facts .. it is not set in stone , it can be altered , but once a hypothesis achieves the honorary title of being called s theory it is unlikely it will change in any fundamental way.
Theories explain facts , they also have to have predictive powers.

The germ theory of disease
Gravitational theory
The theory of evolution
Which of these do you accept , which do you reject
Could I say you accept the ones that don’t contradict your religion and don’t accept the one that does ??
That is the very definition of confirmation bias .

And no , I am not claim gods do not exist , because gods are an unfalsifiable hypothesis .
The claims made on the behalf of gods are not .

I do not claim there are no gods ,
I reject your assertion that there is.
I would anticipate for an intelligent person like you to know how the scientific theory works. I will use the same concept to build my argument and prove how existence of God is the best explanation that can be offered for the facts I will discuss below. I will start my argument with some of the universal laws you mentioned.

WHY DOES THE UNIVERSE OPERATE BY UNIFORM LAWS OF NATURE?
Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us. How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?
Even the greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence.
Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle.”
Source: Richard Feynman, The Meaning of It All: Thoughts of a Citizen-Scientist (New York: BasicBooks, 1998), 43.

THE DNA CODE INFORMS, PROGRAMS A CELL'S BEHAVIOR:
All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these letters in every human cell!!
Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.
Source: Francis S. Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, and author of The Language of God, (Free Press, New York, NY), 2006
Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.
Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

THE COMPLEXITY OF OUR PLANET POINTS TO A DELIBERATE DESIGNER WHO NOT ONLY CREATED OUR UNIVERSE, BUT SUSTAINS IT TODAY.
Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.
Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
It has wide margin between its boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees. Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that various chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.
Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.
Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.
Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.
The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.
The human brain processes more than a million messages a second. Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.
The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously. Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

THE EXISTENCE OF OBJECTIVE MORAL OBLIGATIONS IS BETTER EXPLAINED BY THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.
People experience a sense of morality that leads them to hold strongly that certain things are right or wrong for all people in all cultures. For example, it is wrong to torture another person just for fun. It is wrong for me today. It is wrong for a citizen of the Philippines and it was wrong for someone living in 500 BC. If it is true that it is wrong to torture another person just for fun, then our moral sense picks up something real and objective about morality.
Some philosophers have argued that without God there can be no objective morality at all. In fact, I used to argue for this claim myself. I have changed my mind about this point. I think there can be objective moral goods without God. For example, Aristotle believed that there are objective facts concerning what helps human beings flourish. Human flourishing is clearly a moral good. Thus, there can be some objective moral goods without God. It is more difficult to find room for objective moral obligations without God.
What is the difference between a moral good and a moral obligation? A moral good is a state or situation that, morally, is better to have than not. We might think that it is a better situation, morally, if a person can fulfill some of her potential than if she cannot fulfill any of it. A moral obligation is a duty. If I have a moral obligation to do some action, then I have a duty to perform it. If I refrain from doing the action, I fail at one of my duties, and I am in that sense blameworthy.
What I will argue is that objective moral obligation is better explained by the existence of God than by atheist stories. I will not argue that objective moral obligations are impossible without God. I will argue they are more likely if God exists. If I am correct, objective moral obligations will be evidence for God’s existence.
Before I go any further, I must make it clear that I am not claiming that one must believe in God in order to be moral. I am not claiming that statistically those who believe in God are more moral than those who do not. I am also not claiming that our knowledge of morality depends upon God. This argument is to the effect that objective moral obligations themselves are surprising in a universe without God. They do not fit.
We have different kinds of obligations. Some are prudential, such as “you should prepare for the final exam.” Others have to do with playing a game such as “you cannot move your bishop along the horizontal.” Others are moral. One fact that separates moral obligations from other obligations is that non-moral obligations are actually conditionals. For example, you should prepare for the final exam if you want to do well in the class. You cannot more your bishop along the horizontal if you want to play chess according to the rules.
We can call this kind of obligations conditional obligations. There are two things to observe about conditional conditions. First, if the condition is not fulfilled, the obligation does not hold. Second, it is up to the person involved if she wants to fulfill the condition. So, it is up to you if you want to play chess according to the rules. If you do want to play according to the rules, then you have the obligation not to move the bishop across the horizontal. If you do not care about doing well in the class, you don’t have the obligation to prepare for the final exam. It is up to you if you care.
Moral obligations are not conditional in this way. Suppose you are in a situation in which it would be morally wrong to lie. Someone might want to say that your obligation is conditional. In other words, the moral claim is the following: “If you want to be moral, you must tell the truth in this particular situation.” This sentence is true. If you do not speak the truth, you are not acting morally in that situation. Notice that you are free to reject the condition. You can decide to act in a way that is not moral. If you decide to reject the condition, however, you are not released from the obligation. You may choose to act to fulfill your obligation or not to fulfill it. Either way, the obligation still holds. This observation about moral obligation is a feature of our widely shared concept of moral obligations. It is part of what it means to be under such an obligation.
Part of what makes moral obligations objective is this fact that whether they apply is not up to us. We are not free to refuse to “play the morality game” the way we can refuse to play chess and move the pieces however we want.
There is one more thing to notice about our different kinds of obligations. Conditional obligations are related to conditional purposes. If my purpose is to do well in a class, the obligation to study is binding on me. If my purpose is to play chess according to the rules, the obligation about how I may move my pieces holds. As I said, these conditions are in some sense up to us. Therefore, the purposes are up to us. We can opt in or opt out. Moral obligations seem to be related to purpose as well. If we want to act the way a human being ought to act, we should not lie in a specific situation. The purpose in an unconditional obligation is an unconditional purpose. It is not up to me but it holds.
Given these observations about the nature of obligations, and about moral obligations in particular, we can see that the existence of objective moral obligations makes sense if God is real. They might not be impossible without God, but it is surprising that the universe would develop objective, unconditional purposes for human beings simply by accident.
God, if he exists, is a powerful person who creates the universe (and human beings) for his own reasons. Some of these reasons constitute human purpose. Islam, for example, specifies that part of God’s purposes in creating us is that we would embody and practice various virtues that reflect his own goodness. In this view, it is no surprise that there are unconditional obligations.
If God does not exist, then, although there is a causal story about how human beings emerged, these causes do not provide reasons or purpose for our existence. Objective moral obligations are surprising on this view.

THE EXISTENCE OF THE UNIVERSE IS BETTER EXPLAINED BY THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.
I will begin by laying out the argument:
There are things which come into existence.
Everything which comes into existence is caused to exist by something else.
There cannot be an infinite series of past causes.
Therefore, there exists a first cause which did not come into existence. In other words, the first cause always existed.
Let us look at each of the steps in the argument:
Premise 1. “There are things which come into existence.”
Many things have come into existence. This post is coming into existence as I write it. You came into existence and so did I. This premise is not controversial.
Premise 2. “Everything which comes into existence is caused to exist by something else.”
It is obvious that nothing can cause itself to come into existence. Anything that causes itself to come into existence has to exist before it exists. This is impossible. Perhaps something can come into existence from nothing without any cause whatsoever. Can a thing just pop into existence with absolutely no cause? This also does not seem reasonable.
When my children were young, they would sometimes draw on the walls. If I walked into the dining room and saw a picture of Pinky and the Brain drawn on the wall in Permanent Magic Marker I would have asked “Where did this picture come from?” My son Belal might have said “It came from nothing, Dad. Nothing caused it. It just popped there. I think it is quite strange — don’t you?” Would I have accepted this? No! Things do not come into existence from nothing without cause. So, we have good reason to think that premise two is true. Everything which comes into existence is caused to exist by something else.
Premise 3. “There cannot be an infinite series of past causes.”
Is the series of past causes infinite? Can the universe have an infinite past? The answer is that it cannot. First, there are philosophical reasons to think the past cannot be infinite. Second, there are scientific reasons which support this view.
Philosophical Reasons:
Why can’t the past be infinite? The answer is that it is impossible to complete an infinite series by addition. The series of past events is complete. Think of this mathematical fact. Why is it impossible to count to infinity? It is impossible because, no matter how long you count, you will always be at a finite number. It is impossible to complete an actual infinite by successive addition.
The past is complete. This claim means that the entire series of past events ends now. It ends today. Tomorrow is not part of the series of past events. The series of past events does not extend into the future. It is complete at the present. If it is impossible to complete an infinite series by successive addition (as it is impossible to count to infinity) the past cannot be infinite. If the past is finite, that is, if it had a beginning, then the universe had a beginning. We have strong philosophical reason to reject the claim that the universe has always existed.
Scientific Reasons:
I will not develop these. Rather, I will simply point them out.
Big Bang theory does not prove that the universe had a beginning, but it supports this claim.
The second law of thermodynamics does not prove that the universe had a beginning but it also supports this claim.
We can see that we have good philosophical and scientific reasons to reject the idea that the Universe has always existed.
About the Universe, there are only three alternatives:
1. The universe has always existed. It has an infinite past.
2. The universe was popped into existence from nothing with absolutely no cause.
3. The universe was caused to exist by something outside it.
We have strong reason to reject the first two alternatives.
Alternative Three is the most reasonable. There was a first cause. This cause existed eternally. It initiated the big bang and created the universe. Now what can we know about this cause? Why think the cause is God? I will briefly sketch a few implications.
First, the first cause is not a part of the space-time physical universe because it caused the space time universe to begin. Therefore, it is outside of space and time. It is not physical. Second, it has a great deal of power. Third, it is a personal agent. This means it is not an inert force but it must have aspects of person hood; namely, that it wills. How do we know this? This is because it is the best answer to the question of why the Big Bang happened when it did. Why not sooner? Why not later? All of the conditions for producing the Big Bang existed from eternity. The only kind of cause we know of that can initiate an effect when all of the conditions are already present is the will of a personal agent.
I have not argued that it is logically impossible that the universe popped into existence from nothing without cause. I have argued that it is more reasonable to hold that it has a cause and that this cause is a non-physical personal agent — God.
So, it seems that the first argument is fairly strong. The existence of the universe is better explained by the existence of God.

I have briefly presented several arguments for the existence of God. Of course, there are many other arguments to consider on both sides, and each could be developed in much more detail. I have presented enough, I think, to suggest that it is more reasonable to believe that God exists than that He does not exist. I have not claimed to prove with mathematical certainty that God exists. I have, however, provided good reasons to think that He does. If someone wishes to argue successfully that God does not exist, he must first, provide an answer for each of my arguments and second, he must offer arguments that God does not exist. Until He does this, we can conclude that we have good reason to claim that God does exist.
Reply

chalks75
07-22-2019, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
I would anticipate for an intelligent person like you to know how the scientific theory works. I will use the same concept to build my argument and prove how existence of God is the best explanation that can be offered for the facts I will discuss below. I will start my argument with some of the universal laws you mentioned.

WHY DOES THE UNIVERSE OPERATE BY UNIFORM LAWS OF NATURE?
Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us. How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?
Even the greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence.
Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle.”
Source: Richard Feynman, The Meaning of It All: Thoughts of a Citizen-Scientist (New York: BasicBooks, 1998), 43.

THE DNA CODE INFORMS, PROGRAMS A CELL'S BEHAVIOR:
All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these letters in every human cell!!
Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.
Source: Francis S. Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, and author of The Language of God, (Free Press, New York, NY), 2006
Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.
Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

THE COMPLEXITY OF OUR PLANET POINTS TO A DELIBERATE DESIGNER WHO NOT ONLY CREATED OUR UNIVERSE, BUT SUSTAINS IT TODAY.
Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.
Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
It has wide margin between its boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees. Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that various chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.
Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.
Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.
Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.
The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.
The human brain processes more than a million messages a second. Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.
The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously. Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

THE EXISTENCE OF OBJECTIVE MORAL OBLIGATIONS IS BETTER EXPLAINED BY THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.
People experience a sense of morality that leads them to hold strongly that certain things are right or wrong for all people in all cultures. For example, it is wrong to torture another person just for fun. It is wrong for me today. It is wrong for a citizen of the Philippines and it was wrong for someone living in 500 BC. If it is true that it is wrong to torture another person just for fun, then our moral sense picks up something real and objective about morality.
Some philosophers have argued that without God there can be no objective morality at all. In fact, I used to argue for this claim myself. I have changed my mind about this point. I think there can be objective moral goods without God. For example, Aristotle believed that there are objective facts concerning what helps human beings flourish. Human flourishing is clearly a moral good. Thus, there can be some objective moral goods without God. It is more difficult to find room for objective moral obligations without God.
What is the difference between a moral good and a moral obligation? A moral good is a state or situation that, morally, is better to have than not. We might think that it is a better situation, morally, if a person can fulfill some of her potential than if she cannot fulfill any of it. A moral obligation is a duty. If I have a moral obligation to do some action, then I have a duty to perform it. If I refrain from doing the action, I fail at one of my duties, and I am in that sense blameworthy.
What I will argue is that objective moral obligation is better explained by the existence of God than by atheist stories. I will not argue that objective moral obligations are impossible without God. I will argue they are more likely if God exists. If I am correct, objective moral obligations will be evidence for God’s existence.
Before I go any further, I must make it clear that I am not claiming that one must believe in God in order to be moral. I am not claiming that statistically those who believe in God are more moral than those who do not. I am also not claiming that our knowledge of morality depends upon God. This argument is to the effect that objective moral obligations themselves are surprising in a universe without God. They do not fit.
We have different kinds of obligations. Some are prudential, such as “you should prepare for the final exam.” Others have to do with playing a game such as “you cannot move your bishop along the horizontal.” Others are moral. One fact that separates moral obligations from other obligations is that non-moral obligations are actually conditionals. For example, you should prepare for the final exam if you want to do well in the class. You cannot more your bishop along the horizontal if you want to play chess according to the rules.
We can call this kind of obligations conditional obligations. There are two things to observe about conditional conditions. First, if the condition is not fulfilled, the obligation does not hold. Second, it is up to the person involved if she wants to fulfill the condition. So, it is up to you if you want to play chess according to the rules. If you do want to play according to the rules, then you have the obligation not to move the bishop across the horizontal. If you do not care about doing well in the class, you don’t have the obligation to prepare for the final exam. It is up to you if you care.
Moral obligations are not conditional in this way. Suppose you are in a situation in which it would be morally wrong to lie. Someone might want to say that your obligation is conditional. In other words, the moral claim is the following: “If you want to be moral, you must tell the truth in this particular situation.” This sentence is true. If you do not speak the truth, you are not acting morally in that situation. Notice that you are free to reject the condition. You can decide to act in a way that is not moral. If you decide to reject the condition, however, you are not released from the obligation. You may choose to act to fulfill your obligation or not to fulfill it. Either way, the obligation still holds. This observation about moral obligation is a feature of our widely shared concept of moral obligations. It is part of what it means to be under such an obligation.
Part of what makes moral obligations objective is this fact that whether they apply is not up to us. We are not free to refuse to “play the morality game” the way we can refuse to play chess and move the pieces however we want.
There is one more thing to notice about our different kinds of obligations. Conditional obligations are related to conditional purposes. If my purpose is to do well in a class, the obligation to study is binding on me. If my purpose is to play chess according to the rules, the obligation about how I may move my pieces holds. As I said, these conditions are in some sense up to us. Therefore, the purposes are up to us. We can opt in or opt out. Moral obligations seem to be related to purpose as well. If we want to act the way a human being ought to act, we should not lie in a specific situation. The purpose in an unconditional obligation is an unconditional purpose. It is not up to me but it holds.
Given these observations about the nature of obligations, and about moral obligations in particular, we can see that the existence of objective moral obligations makes sense if God is real. They might not be impossible without God, but it is surprising that the universe would develop objective, unconditional purposes for human beings simply by accident.
God, if he exists, is a powerful person who creates the universe (and human beings) for his own reasons. Some of these reasons constitute human purpose. Islam, for example, specifies that part of God’s purposes in creating us is that we would embody and practice various virtues that reflect his own goodness. In this view, it is no surprise that there are unconditional obligations.
If God does not exist, then, although there is a causal story about how human beings emerged, these causes do not provide reasons or purpose for our existence. Objective moral obligations are surprising on this view.

THE EXISTENCE OF THE UNIVERSE IS BETTER EXPLAINED BY THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.
I will begin by laying out the argument:
There are things which come into existence.
Everything which comes into existence is caused to exist by something else.
There cannot be an infinite series of past causes.
Therefore, there exists a first cause which did not come into existence. In other words, the first cause always existed.
Let us look at each of the steps in the argument:
Premise 1. “There are things which come into existence.”
Many things have come into existence. This post is coming into existence as I write it. You came into existence and so did I. This premise is not controversial.
Premise 2. “Everything which comes into existence is caused to exist by something else.”
It is obvious that nothing can cause itself to come into existence. Anything that causes itself to come into existence has to exist before it exists. This is impossible. Perhaps something can come into existence from nothing without any cause whatsoever. Can a thing just pop into existence with absolutely no cause? This also does not seem reasonable.
When my children were young, they would sometimes draw on the walls. If I walked into the dining room and saw a picture of Pinky and the Brain drawn on the wall in Permanent Magic Marker I would have asked “Where did this picture come from?” My son Belal might have said “It came from nothing, Dad. Nothing caused it. It just popped there. I think it is quite strange — don’t you?” Would I have accepted this? No! Things do not come into existence from nothing without cause. So, we have good reason to think that premise two is true. Everything which comes into existence is caused to exist by something else.
Premise 3. “There cannot be an infinite series of past causes.”
Is the series of past causes infinite? Can the universe have an infinite past? The answer is that it cannot. First, there are philosophical reasons to think the past cannot be infinite. Second, there are scientific reasons which support this view.
Philosophical Reasons:
Why can’t the past be infinite? The answer is that it is impossible to complete an infinite series by addition. The series of past events is complete. Think of this mathematical fact. Why is it impossible to count to infinity? It is impossible because, no matter how long you count, you will always be at a finite number. It is impossible to complete an actual infinite by successive addition.
The past is complete. This claim means that the entire series of past events ends now. It ends today. Tomorrow is not part of the series of past events. The series of past events does not extend into the future. It is complete at the present. If it is impossible to complete an infinite series by successive addition (as it is impossible to count to infinity) the past cannot be infinite. If the past is finite, that is, if it had a beginning, then the universe had a beginning. We have strong philosophical reason to reject the claim that the universe has always existed.
Scientific Reasons:
I will not develop these. Rather, I will simply point them out.
Big Bang theory does not prove that the universe had a beginning, but it supports this claim.
The second law of thermodynamics does not prove that the universe had a beginning but it also supports this claim.
We can see that we have good philosophical and scientific reasons to reject the idea that the Universe has always existed.
About the Universe, there are only three alternatives:
1. The universe has always existed. It has an infinite past.
2. The universe was popped into existence from nothing with absolutely no cause.
3. The universe was caused to exist by something outside it.
We have strong reason to reject the first two alternatives.
Alternative Three is the most reasonable. There was a first cause. This cause existed eternally. It initiated the big bang and created the universe. Now what can we know about this cause? Why think the cause is God? I will briefly sketch a few implications.
First, the first cause is not a part of the space-time physical universe because it caused the space time universe to begin. Therefore, it is outside of space and time. It is not physical. Second, it has a great deal of power. Third, it is a personal agent. This means it is not an inert force but it must have aspects of person hood; namely, that it wills. How do we know this? This is because it is the best answer to the question of why the Big Bang happened when it did. Why not sooner? Why not later? All of the conditions for producing the Big Bang existed from eternity. The only kind of cause we know of that can initiate an effect when all of the conditions are already present is the will of a personal agent.
I have not argued that it is logically impossible that the universe popped into existence from nothing without cause. I have argued that it is more reasonable to hold that it has a cause and that this cause is a non-physical personal agent — God.
So, it seems that the first argument is fairly strong. The existence of the universe is better explained by the existence of God.

I have briefly presented several arguments for the existence of God. Of course, there are many other arguments to consider on both sides, and each could be developed in much more detail. I have presented enough, I think, to suggest that it is more reasonable to believe that God exists than that He does not exist. I have not claimed to prove with mathematical certainty that God exists. I have, however, provided good reasons to think that He does. If someone wishes to argue successfully that God does not exist, he must first, provide an answer for each of my arguments and second, he must offer arguments that God does not exist. Until He does this, we can conclude that we have good reason to claim that God does exist.
That’s quite a long post ,
I’ve heard all those arguments from Christians argument for the existence of their version of god.

You made a mistake in one of them
You said
“ everything that exists”
That used to be the argument until it was pointed out that in that case a god would need a cause ,
So the argument was changed to “ everything that begins to exist “

Those arguments can be used , and are used to argue the existence of other gods .

Basically what you are saying
I don’t know how all these things could be ,,, so I’m going to say it’s a god.

As for the earth being the perfect size ,your being very selective , most of the planet we can live on , it’s water ,parts of it are to high , to dry , to cold for us to live on , and there are any number of disasters that await us , from earthquakes to diseases ... not much of a design.
Added to that , when the sun expends all its fuel it will turn into a red giant and kill every living organism on earth.

You make quite a few assertions, can you demonstrate that any of them are true

For example , can you demonstrate the universe could have any other way other than it is?

What you are offering as “ evidence “
I see as the natural world .


Gods are not explanations , gods are the things we make up when we don’t have a good explanation.
If you want to know what a culture did not know or feared .... look at the gods they invented .
Reply

Eric H
07-22-2019, 04:57 PM
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;

Originally Posted by chalks75
“ can I prove a god does not exist “
That depends on which god you are talking about.
The only God worth searching for is the creator of all that is seen and unseen. God is who he is, we do not change God by calling him the Hindu God, Muslim God or any other name. God the creator exists fully and totally, or there is no god. There cannot be a probable god, its yes or no.


Originally Posted by chalks75
A scientific theory , is the best explanation that can be offered given the facts
The fossils are facts, the theory of evolution depends on making a lot of assumptions about these fossils. If you can tell us how the universe came from no beginning or it did not come from anything. Then tell us how life started from no life, then tell us how the skeletal system evolved without God, you could then be onto something.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'.
Eric
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-22-2019, 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
That’s quite a long post ,
I’ve heard all those arguments from Christians argument for the existence of their version of god.

You made a mistake in one of them
You said
“ everything that exists”
That used to be the argument until it was pointed out that in that case a god would need a cause ,
So the argument was changed to “ everything that begins to exist “

Those arguments can be used , and are used to argue the existence of other gods .

Basically what you are saying
I don’t know how all these things could be ,,, so I’m going to say it’s a god.

As for the earth being the perfect size ,your being very selective , most of the planet we can live on , it’s water ,parts of it are to high , to dry , to cold for us to live on , and there are any number of disasters that await us , from earthquakes to diseases ... not much of a design.
Added to that , when the sun expends all its fuel it will turn into a red giant and kill every living organism on earth.

You make quite a few assertions, can you demonstrate that any of them are true

For example , can you demonstrate the universe could have any other way other than it is?

What you are offering as “ evidence “
I see as the natural world .


Gods are not explanations , gods are the things we make up when we don’t have a good explanation.
If you want to know what a culture did not know or feared .... look at the gods they invented .
People have certain presuppositions and one need to have an open mind to find the truth. I can keep trying to provide you all sort of reasoning from philosophical and scientific point of view and you will not believe in any of those. At the end of the day the guidance comes from God. He knows what is in your heart. I can only assume that you are sincere in finding the truth and will advise you to pray sincerely to ONE God and ask Him to lead you to the truth.

Be sincere to yourself, keep an open mind and never give up. Believe me when it is time, you will be convinced by the simplest argument ever. But if you are not sincere and keep holding to your presuppositions, I am afraid, the door for guidance will remain close. I did the best I could, of course I can't force my belief system on anyone. This is your personal choice.
All the best!
Reply

chalks75
07-22-2019, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;



The only God worth searching for is the creator of all that is seen and unseen. God is who he is, we do not change God by calling him the Hindu God, Muslim God or any other name. God the creator exists fully and totally, or there is no god. There cannot be a probable god, its yes or no.




The fossils are facts, the theory of evolution depends on making a lot of assumptions about these fossils. If you can tell us how the universe came from no beginning or it did not come from anything. Then tell us how life started from no life, then tell us how the skeletal system evolved without God, you could then be onto something.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'.
Eric

I don’t claim to know how life or the universe began.

Evolution is a fact.
It is a fact that was recognised long before Darwin’s time.
Darwin discovered the mechanism by which it works natural selection , (another man , Jean Lamark babtiste , came to the same conclusion working independently of Darwin )

Life evolves , this is an undisputed fact ,

The theory of evolution is not just based on the fossil record , it has been confirmed using genetics , we share a common ancestry with apes.
No only that , we fall under the category of apes, not only are we descendants of apes , we are apes.

But

Even if the entire science of evolution was disproved tomorrow .... that does not make you right by default.

Disproving evolution , is not proving creationism.

Why don’t you google “ how did the skeleton system evolve “
At least you will know what you disagree with then
Reply

chalks75
07-22-2019, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
People have certain presuppositions and one need to have an open mind to find the truth. I can keep trying to provide you all sort of reasoning from philosophical and scientific point of view and you will not believe in any of those. At the end of the day the guidance comes from God. He knows what is in your heart. I can only assume that you are sincere in finding the truth and will advise you to pray sincerely to ONE God and ask Him to lead you to the truth.

Be sincere to yourself, keep an open mind and never give up. Believe me when it is time, you will be convinced by the simplest argument ever. But if you are not sincere and keep holding to your presuppositions, I am afraid, the door for guidance will remain close. I did the best I could, of course I can't force my belief system on anyone. This is your personal choice.
All the best!
The only presuppositions I make are
The universe exists
It is intelligible
And I am part of it.

I see no reason to assume the existence of gods.

If you ever come across evidence that there is a god ( not philosophical arguments or quotes from a book you assign special meaning to)

Feel free to share it with me.

The truth , is that which the evidence shows is true.

Hopefully someday we all know the truth .
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-22-2019, 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
The only presuppositions I make are
The universe exists
It is intelligible
And I am part of it.

I see no reason to assume the existence of gods.

If you ever come across evidence that there is a god ( not philosophical arguments or quotes from a book you assign special meaning to)

Feel free to share it with me.

The truth , is that which the evidence shows is true.

Hopefully someday we all know the truth .
It is amazing that you can believe in theory of evolution with little to no evidence but you can't believe in God when you look at the creation of everything around you, including yourself and the environment you live in.

"I can conceive how it might be possible for a man to lookdown upon the earth and be an atheist, but I cannot conceive how he could lookup into the heavens and say there is no God." -- Abraham Lincoln
Think seriously about the advice I gave. If you can't find any reason to believe in God, perhaps all you need is to pray to God and He will open the doors of truth for you. You will not loose anything by praying sincerely to God if He does not exist.
Reply

chalks75
07-22-2019, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
It is amazing that you can believe in theory of evolution with little to no evidence but you can't believe in God when you look at the creation of everything around you, including yourself and the environment you live in.



Think seriously about the advice I gave. If you can't find any reason to believe in God, perhaps all you need is to pray to God and He will open the doors of truth for you. You will not loose anything by praying sincerely to God if He does not exist.
Which god should I pray to ?
Reply

chalks75
07-22-2019, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
It is amazing that you can believe in theory of evolution with little to no evidence but you can't believe in God when you look at the creation of everything around you, including yourself and the environment you live in.



Think seriously about the advice I gave. If you can't find any reason to believe in God, perhaps all you need is to pray to God and He will open the doors of truth for you. You will not loose anything by praying sincerely to God if He does not exist.
I accept the theory of evolution , just like I accept the germ theory of disease , even though I’ve never seen a germ.

Whenever a theist can offer the same evidence for god , that a biologist can offer for evolution I might be persuaded
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-22-2019, 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Which god should I pray to ?
We need to take one step at a time. First be convinced the God exists. Then ask the second question, would it make sense to have one God or many? What is your opinion? What would you think makes most sense - to have one God or many?

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by chalks75
I accept the theory of evolution , just like I accept the germ theory of disease , even though I’ve never seen a germ.

Whenever a theist can offer the same evidence for god , that a biologist can offer for evolution I might be persuaded
You can't provide any proof that God does not exist. On the other, I can provide several evidences to prove that the theory of evolution has been wrong or misunderstood largely but that's not the purpose of our dialogue. I can go in more detail if you want me to but I can give you two big clues.
1. Self organization of matter - this is one of the dogma we have to believe if we believe in theory of evolution and there is no scientific explanation for this dogma.
2. Law of entropy tells us that the entire universe is unavoidably proceeding towards a more disordered, unplanned, and disorganized state. Evolutionary theory ignores this fundamental law of physics. The mechanism offered by evolution totally contradicts the second law. The theory of evolution says that disordered, dispersed, and lifeless atoms and molecules spontaneously came together over time, in a particular order, to form extremely complex molecules such as proteins, DNA, and RNA, whereupon millions of different living species with even more complex structures gradually emerged. According to the theory of evolution, this supposed process—which yields a more planned, more ordered, more complex and more organized structure at each stage—was formed all by itself under natural conditions. The law of entropy makes it clear that this so-called natural process utterly contradicts laws of thermodynamics.

Anyways its not important from my point of view to discuss theory of evolution because one can still be an atheist and deny theory of evolution. For our discussion, it means nothing important.
Reply

chalks75
07-22-2019, 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
We need to take one step at a time. First be convinced the God exists. Then ask the second question, would it make sense to have one God or many? What is your opinion? What would you think makes most sense - to have one God or many?

- - - Updated - - -



You can't provide any proof that God does not exist. On the other, I can provide several evidences to prove that the theory of evolution has been wrong or misunderstood largely but that's not the purpose of our dialogue. I can go in more detail if you want me to but I can give you two big clues.
1. Self organization of matter - this is one of the dogma we have to believe if we believe in theory of evolution and there is no scientific explanation for this dogma.
2. Law of entropy tells us that the entire universe is unavoidably proceeding towards a more disordered, unplanned, and disorganized state. Evolutionary theory ignores this fundamental law of physics. The mechanism offered by evolution totally contradicts the second law. The theory of evolution says that disordered, dispersed, and lifeless atoms and molecules spontaneously came together over time, in a particular order, to form extremely complex molecules such as proteins, DNA, and RNA, whereupon millions of different living species with even more complex structures gradually emerged. According to the theory of evolution, this supposed process—which yields a more planned, more ordered, more complex and more organized structure at each stage—was formed all by itself under natural conditions. The law of entropy makes it clear that this so-called natural process utterly contradicts laws of thermodynamics.

Anyways its not important from my point of view to discuss theory of evolution because one can still be an atheist and deny theory of evolution. For our discussion, it means nothing important.

I’m not claiming a god does it exist ,I don’t believe a god or gods exist.
It’s your claim that some god exists , so you have the burden of proof.

If you could disprove evolution, there is a Nobel prize awaiting you.

Answer me this
Is evolution by natural selection , the best explanation for biological diversity being offered by science today ?

Of the people that reject evolution what is the number one reason
The science is wrong
Or
It conflicts with their religious beliefs ?

Be honest
Reply

chalks75
07-22-2019, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
I’m not claiming a god does it exist ,I don’t believe a god or gods exist.
It’s your claim that some god exists , so you have the burden of proof.

If you could disprove evolution, there is a Nobel prize awaiting you.

Answer me this
Is evolution by natural selection , the best explanation for biological diversity being offered by science today ?

Of the people that reject evolution what is the number one reason
The science is wrong
Or
It conflicts with their religious beliefs ?

Be honest
The law of entropy does nit apply to us ,as we are not in a closed system , we get energy from the sun.

If physics proved gods were real, physicists would be theists

The first thing is not be convinced a god exists, because even if your convinced you could be wrong

The first thing to do is prove a god exists... then be convinced
Reply

yasoooo
07-23-2019, 06:32 AM
The Creator created us as a free people in the world and also placed the prophets sent by exhortation to the people of the earth and had to stand up. The creator said: "The man who seeks God will go with my satisfaction and the man who seeks the satisfaction of the subject, his own path." But! Every man will be the day of resurrection to life and people will return to their masters groups. It is the day of judgment where the man can hear what she has presented and what they would have been obvious. Whoever has wronged that day to the promised punishment and whoever has done well (surrender to God) will fully reward the prize. Wait, why are we waiting with you? Time will be soon! A man lives only a fraction of a second when the actual duration of the start of creation at the end of the creation would be calculated. Therefore, the necessary awareness and research

arrogance and craving pure waste of time. For this reason, I seek the satisfaction of God, because we are not without purpose on the earth. we encourage good and good deeds. So we promised in paradise that our goal would be achieved. We have the choice between good and bad.
Common sense is the key point of our life. According to common sense, the best-informed individual on creation would be his creator, for example: the producer of a car is the one who can answer all questions related to this car, its purpose, how to use it .. .

In our case, the Creator of the human being would be best placed to determine what is good and what is bad for him. In order to fulfill this requirement, he sent different messengers and prophets (peace be upon them) to teach people how to behave.
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him

Spoke of all religious and material matters

Because Islam
Constitution and approach to life

Eating, sleeping and praying, bathing and making transactions between people

Religion is not just a ritual

Pray and then go out to lie and drink alcohol and lack of hygiene and adultery

Like other religions

\\\

Do you think God created man on earth
Live in prosperity and happiness
You're wrong

Everyone on earth
A test of a different kind



Example
- A rich man but can not have children,
- A poor man has children but He does not have enough food
- A strong man and can use his power to do good but do not do it
- weak man, but help people his best
Unfaithful man but he has all the blessings
- Muslim man has healthy illnesses


Here everyone tries and tests his
Illness = test
Health = test
Disbelief = test
Money = test
etc.
You will succeed and reach the right path

The Purpose of Creation, Why Islam by Dr Zakir Naik - ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-uLJMgvwRQ


- - - Updated - - -

The Day and Night
The Qur’anic description of the sequence of day and night would, in itself, be rather commonplace were it not for the fact that it is expressed in terms that are today highly appropriate. The Qur’an uses the verb kawwara in chapter az-Zumar to describe the way the night ‘winds’ or ‘coils’ itself around the day and the day around the night.
“He coils the night upon the day and the day upon the night.” Qur’an, 39:5
The original meaning of the verb kis to coil a turban around the head. This is a totally valid comparison; yet at the time the Qur’an was revealed, the astronomical data necessary to make this comparison were unknown. It is not until man landed on the moon and observed the earth spinning on its axis, that the dark half of the globe appeared to wind itself around the light and the light half appeared to wind itself around the dark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFoGX49QzLg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_1TM-Y2lUA

The Sun and Moon.

Whereas the Bible talks of the sun and the moon as two lights differing only in size, the Qur’an distinguishes between them by the use of different terms: light (noor) for the moon, and lamp (siraaj) for the sun.

“Did you see how Allah created seven heavens, one above the other, and made in them the moon a light and the sun a lamp?” Qur’an, 78:12-13

The moon is an inert body which reflects light, whereas the sun is a celestial body in a state of permanent combustion producing both light and heat.
Stars and Planets

The word ‘star’ (najm) in the Qur’an ( 86:3 ) is accompanied by the adjective thaaqib which indicates that it burns and consumes itself as it pierces through the shadows of the night. It was much later discovered that stars are heavenly bodies producing their own light like the sun.

In the Qur’an, a different word, kawkab, is used to refer to the planets which are celestial bodies that reflect light and do not produce their own light like the sun.

“We have adorned the lowest heaven with ornaments, the planets.” Qur’an, 37:6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNN7nznAT0E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBFp3Qe4r74
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1gqGAn8y4Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQu7FznVOvI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2s14T6x5AM
Reply

yasoooo
07-23-2019, 11:45 AM
Dr. Zakir Naik - Does God exist?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2s14T6x5AM
Reply

Eric H
07-23-2019, 12:59 PM
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;

Originally Posted by chalks75
Answer me this
Is evolution by natural selection , the best explanation for biological diversity being offered by science today ?

Of the people that reject evolution what is the number one reason
The science is wrong
Or
It conflicts with their religious beliefs ?

Be honest
The science is wrong, too many assumptions have to be made in order for evolution to work. Even if evolution happened by natural selection, the skeletal system and the eye could not happen without the help of God.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
Reply

chalks75
07-23-2019, 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;



The science is wrong, too many assumptions have to be made in order for evolution to work. Even if evolution happened by natural selection, the skeletal system and the eye could not happen without the help of God.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
You say the science is wrong
But that’s going against the consensus in science .

Certainly the eye can evolve , if you look throughout the natural world you can see eyes in many states of development form a single light sensor cell in sea animals to more developed eyes like the octopus , which is superior to ours.

Your objections are not held up by the science , I’m afraid to say .
Reply

chalks75
07-23-2019, 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by yasoooo
The Creator created us as a free people in the world and also placed the prophets sent by exhortation to the people of the earth and had to stand up. The creator said: "The man who seeks God will go with my satisfaction and the man who seeks the satisfaction of the subject, his own path." But! Every man will be the day of resurrection to life and people will return to their masters groups. It is the day of judgment where the man can hear what she has presented and what they would have been obvious. Whoever has wronged that day to the promised punishment and whoever has done well (surrender to God) will fully reward the prize. Wait, why are we waiting with you? Time will be soon! A man lives only a fraction of a second when the actual duration of the start of creation at the end of the creation would be calculated. Therefore, the necessary awareness and research

arrogance and craving pure waste of time. For this reason, I seek the satisfaction of God, because we are not without purpose on the earth. we encourage good and good deeds. So we promised in paradise that our goal would be achieved. We have the choice between good and bad.
Common sense is the key point of our life. According to common sense, the best-informed individual on creation would be his creator, for example: the producer of a car is the one who can answer all questions related to this car, its purpose, how to use it .. .

In our case, the Creator of the human being would be best placed to determine what is good and what is bad for him. In order to fulfill this requirement, he sent different messengers and prophets (peace be upon them) to teach people how to behave.
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him

Spoke of all religious and material matters

Because Islam
Constitution and approach to life

Eating, sleeping and praying, bathing and making transactions between people

Religion is not just a ritual

Pray and then go out to lie and drink alcohol and lack of hygiene and adultery

Like other religions

\\\

Do you think God created man on earth
Live in prosperity and happiness
You're wrong

Everyone on earth
A test of a different kind



Example
- A rich man but can not have children,
- A poor man has children but He does not have enough food
- A strong man and can use his power to do good but do not do it
- weak man, but help people his best
Unfaithful man but he has all the blessings
- Muslim man has healthy illnesses


Here everyone tries and tests his
Illness = test
Health = test
Disbelief = test
Money = test
etc.
You will succeed and reach the right path

The Purpose of Creation, Why Islam by Dr Zakir Naik - ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-uLJMgvwRQ


- - - Updated - - -

The Day and Night
The Qur’anic description of the sequence of day and night would, in itself, be rather commonplace were it not for the fact that it is expressed in terms that are today highly appropriate. The Qur’an uses the verb kawwara in chapter az-Zumar to describe the way the night ‘winds’ or ‘coils’ itself around the day and the day around the night.
“He coils the night upon the day and the day upon the night.” Qur’an, 39:5
The original meaning of the verb kis to coil a turban around the head. This is a totally valid comparison; yet at the time the Qur’an was revealed, the astronomical data necessary to make this comparison were unknown. It is not until man landed on the moon and observed the earth spinning on its axis, that the dark half of the globe appeared to wind itself around the light and the light half appeared to wind itself around the dark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFoGX49QzLg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_1TM-Y2lUA

The Sun and Moon.

Whereas the Bible talks of the sun and the moon as two lights differing only in size, the Qur’an distinguishes between them by the use of different terms: light (noor) for the moon, and lamp (siraaj) for the sun.

“Did you see how Allah created seven heavens, one above the other, and made in them the moon a light and the sun a lamp?” Qur’an, 78:12-13

The moon is an inert body which reflects light, whereas the sun is a celestial body in a state of permanent combustion producing both light and heat.
Stars and Planets

The word ‘star’ (najm) in the Qur’an ( 86:3 ) is accompanied by the adjective thaaqib which indicates that it burns and consumes itself as it pierces through the shadows of the night. It was much later discovered that stars are heavenly bodies producing their own light like the sun.

In the Qur’an, a different word, kawkab, is used to refer to the planets which are celestial bodies that reflect light and do not produce their own light like the sun.

“We have adorned the lowest heaven with ornaments, the planets.” Qur’an, 37:6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNN7nznAT0E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBFp3Qe4r74
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1gqGAn8y4Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQu7FznVOvI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2s14T6x5AM
You need to demonstrate that there is a creator .... before you make claims about what the creator can and cannot do.
Reply

Ahmed.
07-23-2019, 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Ok prove it ,
You will have solved a problem philosophy have been wrestling with for centuries.

How would you prove we are not part of a computer programme ?
This universe too huge to be part of it, you will need aliens that are as great as God to do a thing like that, but it's not aliens and it is not a 'computer programme'. It is GOD the Creator and his predestination as that is what God Himself has communicated to us with clear signs (miracles) that it is from Him
Reply

chalks75
07-23-2019, 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
This universe too huge to be part of it, you will need aliens that are as great as God to do a thing like that, but it's not aliens and it is not a 'computer programme'. It is GOD the Creator and his predestination as that is what God Himself has communicated to us with clear signs (miracles) that it is from Him

Can you prove that it’s not a computer programme.

All you have does is assert it can’t be ,
You need to be able to prove that it’s not.
It’s called hard solipsism, and philosophers have been churning over it for centuries.

You cannot prove it is not a computer programme , you cannot prove that the universe was not created last week.

Can you prove this is not a computer programme?
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-23-2019, 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
The law of entropy does nit apply to us ,as we are not in a closed system , we get energy from the sun.

If physics proved gods were real, physicists would be theists

The first thing is not be convinced a god exists, because even if your convinced you could be wrong

The first thing to do is prove a god exists... then be convinced
I am well aware that some proponents of evolution have recourse to an argument that the law of entropy holds true only for “closed systems,” and that “open systems” are beyond the scope of this law. This claim goes no further than being an attempt by some evolutionists to distort scientific facts that invalidate their theory.

In fact, a large number of scientists openly state that this claim is invalid, and violates thermodynamics.

One of these is the Harvard scientist John Ross, who also holds evolutionist views. He explains that these unrealistic claims contain an important scientific error in the following remarks in Chemical and Engineering News:

There are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium phenomena the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself.
Source: John Ross, Chemical and Engineering News, 27 July, 1980, p. 40.
An “open system” is a thermodynamic system in which energy and matter flow in and out. Evolutionists hold that the world is an open system: that it is constantly exposed to an energy flow from the sun; that the law of entropy does not apply to the world as a whole, and that ordered, complex living beings can be generated from disordered, simple, and inanimate structures. That’s exactly you claimed.
However, there is an obvious distortion here. The fact that a system has an energy inflow is not enough to make that system ordered. Specific mechanisms are needed to make the energy functional. For instance, a car needs an engine, a transmission system, and related control mechanisms to convert the energy in petrol to work. Without such an energy conversion system, the car will not be able to use the energy stored in petrol.
The same thing applies in the case of life as well. It is true that life derives its energy from the sun. However, solar energy can only be converted into chemical energy by the incredibly complex energy conversion systems in living things (such as photosynthesis in plants and the digestive systems of humans and animals). No living thing can live without such energy conversion systems. Without an energy conversion system, the sun is nothing but a source of destructive energy that burns, parches, or melts.

As can be seen, a thermodynamic system without an energy conversion mechanism of some sort is not advantageous for evolution, be it open or closed. No one asserts that such complex and conscious mechanisms could have existed in nature under the conditions of the primeval earth. Indeed, the real problem confronting evolutionists is the question of how complex energy-converting mechanisms such as photosynthesis in plants, which cannot be duplicated even with modern technology, could have come into being on their own.

The influx of solar energy into the world would be unable to bring about order on its own. Moreover, no matter how high the temperature may become, amino acids resist forming bonds in ordered sequences. Energy by itself is incapable of making amino acids form the much more complex molecules of proteins, or of making proteins form the much more complex and organized structures of cell organelles.

Regarding theory of natural selection: Let’s look at this from two separate aspects, which is human beings and other living things.
Human Beings:
When we look at the sources of Islam – the Quran and Sunnah – we see that, with respect to human beings living on the Earth today, they are all descendants of Adam and Eve. Quran tells us that Adam and his wife were the father and mother of all human beings living on the Earth today. We know about this by way of direct revelation from God. The direct creation of Adam PBUH can neither be confirmed nor denied by science in any way. This is because the creation of Adam PBUH was a unique and singular historical event. It is a matter of the Unseen and something that science does not have the power to confirm or deny. As a matter of the Unseen, we believe it because God informs us about it. We say the same for the miracles mentioned in the Quran. Miraculous events, by their very nature, do not conform to scientific laws and their occurrence can neither be confirmed nor denied by science.

Other living things, besides the human beings living on the Earth today?
What about plants, animals, fungi, and the like?
When we turn our attention to this question, we find that the Quran and Sunnah do not tell us much about the flora and fauna that was present on the Earth before or at the time of Adam and Eve’s arrived upon it. The sacred texts also do not tell us how long ago Adam and Eve arrived upon the Earth. Therefore, these are things we cannot ascertain from the sacred texts.
The only thing that the Quran and Sunnah require us to believe about the living things on Earth today is that God created them in whatever manner He decided to create them.
God says:
“God is the Creator of all things and over all things He has authority.” (Quran 39:62)
Indeed, God states specifically that He created all life forms:
“And We made from water all living things.” (Quran 21:30)
We know that “God does what He pleases.” God can create His creatures in any manner that He chooses.
Therefore, with respect to other living things, the Quran and Sunnah neither confirm nor deny the theory of biological evolution or the process referred to as natural selection. The question of evolution remains purely a matter of scientific enquiry. The theory of evolution must stand or fall on its own scientific merits – and that means the physical evidence that either confirms the theory or conflicts with it.

The role of science is only to observe and describe the patterns that God places in His creation. If scientific observation shows a pattern in the evolution of species over time that can be described as natural selection, this is not in itself unbelief. It is only unbelief for a person to think that this evolution took place on its own, and not as a creation of God. A Muslim who accepts evolution or natural selection as a valid scientific theory must know that the theory is merely an explanation of one of the many observed patterns in God’s creation.
Reply

Ahmed.
07-23-2019, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Can you prove that it’s not a computer programme.

All you have does is assert it can’t be ,
You need to be able to prove that it’s not.
It’s called hard solipsism, and philosophers have been churning over it for centuries.

You cannot prove it is not a computer programme , you cannot prove that the universe was not created last week.

Can you prove this is not a computer programme?
Well if you think this could be a computer programme it just goes to show how far removed from reality some people are in this day and age; thanks to all the science fiction nonsense they are bombarding us with (rolls eyes)

It just takes common sense to know this is not as everything points to us being free-willed creatures with Gods destiny having a hand in things

There is even no need to think about weird science fiction nonsense. Stay away from those weird theories for a while and let your mind 'deprogramne' from that nonsense and you'll see that as a free-mind human being such a bizarre thought wouldn't ev3n occur to you

If there's any 'programming' going on, it is the masses being programmed via the tv with this weird nonsense!
Reply

Eric H
07-23-2019, 05:00 PM
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;

Originally Posted by chalks75
Certainly the eye can evolve , if you look throughout the natural world you can see eyes in many states of development form a single light sensor cell in sea animals to more developed eyes like the octopus , which is superior to ours.
Whether the eye evolved through one species or a hundred species, it still had to evolve from no eye to a complete eye. If you follow the Nilsson Pelger explanation, the eye would have to evolve 1800 times, with an improvement of less than 0.1% at each stage. Natural selection is not a mechanism that can detect that small a change 1800 times.

If the eye is to evolve 1800 times, then the nervous system, the brain and the limbs would also have to evolve and improve 1800 times also. This is too much detailed information, this is not how blind random mutation and natural selection work. I believe that science is not being totally honest about their theory.
If evolution happened, then it has to be planned by a greater power - God.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
Reply

chalks75
07-23-2019, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
I am well aware that some proponents of evolution have recourse to an argument that the law of entropy holds true only for “closed systems,” and that “open systems” are beyond the scope of this law. This claim goes no further than being an attempt by some evolutionists to distort scientific facts that invalidate their theory.

In fact, a large number of scientists openly state that this claim is invalid, and violates thermodynamics.

One of these is the Harvard scientist John Ross, who also holds evolutionist views. He explains that these unrealistic claims contain an important scientific error in the following remarks in Chemical and Engineering News:



An “open system” is a thermodynamic system in which energy and matter flow in and out. Evolutionists hold that the world is an open system: that it is constantly exposed to an energy flow from the sun; that the law of entropy does not apply to the world as a whole, and that ordered, complex living beings can be generated from disordered, simple, and inanimate structures. That’s exactly you claimed.
However, there is an obvious distortion here. The fact that a system has an energy inflow is not enough to make that system ordered. Specific mechanisms are needed to make the energy functional. For instance, a car needs an engine, a transmission system, and related control mechanisms to convert the energy in petrol to work. Without such an energy conversion system, the car will not be able to use the energy stored in petrol.
The same thing applies in the case of life as well. It is true that life derives its energy from the sun. However, solar energy can only be converted into chemical energy by the incredibly complex energy conversion systems in living things (such as photosynthesis in plants and the digestive systems of humans and animals). No living thing can live without such energy conversion systems. Without an energy conversion system, the sun is nothing but a source of destructive energy that burns, parches, or melts.

As can be seen, a thermodynamic system without an energy conversion mechanism of some sort is not advantageous for evolution, be it open or closed. No one asserts that such complex and conscious mechanisms could have existed in nature under the conditions of the primeval earth. Indeed, the real problem confronting evolutionists is the question of how complex energy-converting mechanisms such as photosynthesis in plants, which cannot be duplicated even with modern technology, could have come into being on their own.

The influx of solar energy into the world would be unable to bring about order on its own. Moreover, no matter how high the temperature may become, amino acids resist forming bonds in ordered sequences. Energy by itself is incapable of making amino acids form the much more complex molecules of proteins, or of making proteins form the much more complex and organized structures of cell organelles.

Regarding theory of natural selection: Let’s look at this from two separate aspects, which is human beings and other living things.
Human Beings:
When we look at the sources of Islam – the Quran and Sunnah – we see that, with respect to human beings living on the Earth today, they are all descendants of Adam and Eve. Quran tells us that Adam and his wife were the father and mother of all human beings living on the Earth today. We know about this by way of direct revelation from God. The direct creation of Adam PBUH can neither be confirmed nor denied by science in any way. This is because the creation of Adam PBUH was a unique and singular historical event. It is a matter of the Unseen and something that science does not have the power to confirm or deny. As a matter of the Unseen, we believe it because God informs us about it. We say the same for the miracles mentioned in the Quran. Miraculous events, by their very nature, do not conform to scientific laws and their occurrence can neither be confirmed nor denied by science.

Other living things, besides the human beings living on the Earth today?
What about plants, animals, fungi, and the like?
When we turn our attention to this question, we find that the Quran and Sunnah do not tell us much about the flora and fauna that was present on the Earth before or at the time of Adam and Eve’s arrived upon it. The sacred texts also do not tell us how long ago Adam and Eve arrived upon the Earth. Therefore, these are things we cannot ascertain from the sacred texts.
The only thing that the Quran and Sunnah require us to believe about the living things on Earth today is that God created them in whatever manner He decided to create them.
God says:

Indeed, God states specifically that He created all life forms:

We know that “God does what He pleases.” God can create His creatures in any manner that He chooses.
Therefore, with respect to other living things, the Quran and Sunnah neither confirm nor deny the theory of biological evolution or the process referred to as natural selection. The question of evolution remains purely a matter of scientific enquiry. The theory of evolution must stand or fall on its own scientific merits – and that means the physical evidence that either confirms the theory or conflicts with it.

The role of science is only to observe and describe the patterns that God places in His creation. If scientific observation shows a pattern in the evolution of species over time that can be described as natural selection, this is not in itself unbelief. It is only unbelief for a person to think that this evolution took place on its own, and not as a creation of God. A Muslim who accepts evolution or natural selection as a valid scientific theory must know that the theory is merely an explanation of one of the many observed patterns in God’s creation.

I did not make any claim regarding the origin of life
I did not claim an influx of energy is enough to create order .

The fact of the matter is this

Evolution is a fact , it occurs , how much things evolve you can argue about , but you cannot argues that life changes over time , it’s a fact.

Science does not agree with your position.
Evolution is the current scientific theory accepted by the vast majority of scientists.

I can provide you with an real world example of animals evolving in the wild .

Lizard were introduced to an island where they were not native , and over a few generations their jaws and digestive system began to change ( evolve) in response to the change in diet and environment.

This is a real world example of evolution , and not the only one.

I’m sure you will say ... ah yes, but they are still lizards .... which is exactly what evolution would predict.

Our genetics prove we have s common ancestor with apes ... it is undeniable.

It’s unfortunate it contradicts your religion , it’s up to you to decide which is more important
What is true and can be shown to be true , or what you would like to believe is true.

I don’t mind , you can accept or reject evolution at your leisure.
Even if evolution were disproved tomorrow , that does not prove you right by default.

Even if evolution were disproved tomorrow , I would still be an atheist .... I would then be an atheist that does not know how biodiversity occurred.

I’ve said it before , I will say it again

It is s mistake to conflate atheism with evolution .
Reply

chalks75
07-23-2019, 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Well if you think this could be a computer programme it just goes to show how far removed from reality some people are in this day and age; thanks to all the science fiction nonsense they are bombarding us with (rolls eyes)

It just takes common sense to know this is not as everything points to us being free-willed creatures with Gods destiny having a hand in things

There is even no need to think about weird science fiction nonsense. Stay away from those weird theories for a while and let your mind 'deprogramne' from that nonsense and you'll see that as a free-mind human being such a bizarre thought wouldn't ev3n occur to you

If there's any 'programming' going on, it is the masses being programmed via the tv with this weird nonsense!

I did not say “I think this is a computer programme”

I said “I can’t prove that it’s not”
You said you could prove that it’s not

But you have yet to do that.
Reply

chalks75
07-23-2019, 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;



Whether the eye evolved through one species or a hundred species, it still had to evolve from no eye to a complete eye. If you follow the Nilsson Pelger explanation, the eye would have to evolve 1800 times, with an improvement of less than 0.1% at each stage. Natural selection is not a mechanism that can detect that small a change 1800 times.

If the eye is to evolve 1800 times, then the nervous system, the brain and the limbs would also have to evolve and improve 1800 times also. This is too much detailed information, this is not how blind random mutation and natural selection work. I believe that science is not being totally honest about their theory.
If evolution happened, then it has to be planned by a greater power - God.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
You have done exactly what the Catholic Church have done ... when faced with the mountain of evidence confirming evolution , they abandoned 2000 years of doctrine and said “ then this is how god done it “

Evolution is a fact , it’s a fact that was recognised long before Darwin’s time.

It only takes the eye to evolve once , then to be modified through natural selection.

There are animals that have a single cell , all it can detect is light/no light ... give it another 20,000 years and through evolution it may develop the ability to make out the direction of light.

There are some excellent videos showing the eyes in all different species.

Do you really think all the scientists over the past 200 years, in 100s of different countries are involved in a conspiracy to cover up the truth about evolution .
Really
Reply

Eric H
07-23-2019, 09:45 PM
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;
Originally Posted by chalks75
There are animals that have a single cell , all it can detect is light/no light
And I don't have a problem with that.

Originally Posted by chalks75
give it another 20,000 years and through evolution it may develop the ability to make out the direction of light.
This is where the problem starts, the eye starts to recognise the direction of light, but in order for this to be an advantage, the nervous system would also have to evolve, to pass the increased information to a brain. If this did not happen, then there is nothing for natural selection to work with. If the brain does not pass that information onto the limbs so they react, then natural selection does not have anything to work with, so the eye would not evolve.

According to Nilsson and Pelgar, the eye evolved over 1800 incremental stages, so the nerves, brain and limbs would also have to evolve 1800 times to pass the benefits on.

Originally Posted by chalks75
There are some excellent videos showing the eyes in all different species.
I have watched a number of these videos, and they just make me feel more certain that even if evolution happened, it could not happen without God.

Originally Posted by chalks75
Do you really think all the scientists over the past 200 years, in 100s of different countries are involved in a conspiracy to cover up the truth about evolution .
Really
I sense that atheism is directing science, and when the truth comes out, science will be the loser.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
Reply

chalks75
07-24-2019, 06:20 AM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;


And I don't have a problem with that.



This is where the problem starts, the eye starts to recognise the direction of light, but in order for this to be an advantage, the nervous system would also have to evolve, to pass the increased information to a brain. If this did not happen, then there is nothing for natural selection to work with. If the brain does not pass that information onto the limbs so they react, then natural selection does not have anything to work with, so the eye would not evolve.

According to Nilsson and Pelgar, the eye evolved over 1800 incremental stages, so the nerves, brain and limbs would also have to evolve 1800 times to pass the benefits on.



I have watched a number of these videos, and they just make me feel more certain that even if evolution happened, it could not happen without God.



I sense that atheism is directing science, and when the truth comes out, science will be the loser.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

Atheism is directing science ... really , come on man.

Charles Darwin was a Christian , he set out to prove that humans were created by god in an act of special creation.
He gathered evidence, when he looked at the evidence it led him to a different conclusion.

If your world view is partly based on a world wide conspiracy by atheists to control science and direct scientific findings in a certain direction , in an attempt to disprove the religious claims of bronze age Jews ... I think our conversation has run its course.
Reply

Eric H
07-24-2019, 08:45 PM
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75,

Originally Posted by chalks75
Charles Darwin was a Christian , he set out to prove that humans were created by god in an act of special creation.
He gathered evidence, when he looked at the evidence it led him to a different conclusion.
I have a lot of respect for Darwin, he seemed meticulous in his research into natural selection. I do have problems when you use this theory extrapolate back three and a half billion years to single cell life.

Originally Posted by chalks75
If your world view is partly based on a world wide conspiracy by atheists to control science and direct scientific findings in a certain direction , in an attempt to disprove the religious claims of bronze age Jews
There are people like Richard Dawkins who seem to be doing just that. You seem to be promoting atheism on a religious forum, but please correct me if I am wrong.

In the spirit of searching for God,

Eric
Reply

chalks75
07-25-2019, 11:02 AM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75,



I have a lot of respect for Darwin, he seemed meticulous in his research into natural selection. I do have problems when you use this theory extrapolate back three and a half billion years to single cell life.



There are people like Richard Dawkins who seem to be doing just that. You seem to be promoting atheism on a religious forum, but please correct me if I am wrong.

In the spirit of searching for God,

Eric
All life came from a single cell ...
is that what the evidence suggests ?
I’m not a biologist, I don’t pretend to know the ins and outs of evolution.
Generally I accept scientific findings
I’m sure you accept the germ theory of disease
Or
Gravitational theory
Oxygen theory of combustion
The theory of plate tectonics
It’s unfortunate that the theory of evolution conflicts with your religious beliefs ... or you would have no reason to not accept it.

I’m not promoting atheism per se.
I’ve always been fascinated with the things people believe , and why they believe them.

Why do Hindus believe that their gods are real
Why do Christians believe Jesus is a real god
Why did the Greeks believe Zeus was a real god
Why did the Norse believe you went to Valhalla after you die
Why do some people believe the earth is flat , or that aliens cost earth and abduct people.

Beliefs are a funny thing , and I’m fascinated as to how people believe the things they do.

For example
People would say , the Hindu religious beliefs are stupid , how can people believe all that stuff , it’s nonsense.
At the same time , ( IMO) they hold similar beliefs , just about a different god .
Reply

Eric H
07-26-2019, 05:01 AM
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75,

Originally Posted by chalks75
It’s unfortunate that the theory of evolution conflicts with your religious beliefs
Evolution is not in conflict with my religious beliefs, it is in conflict with my basic understanding of mechanical engineering. The human body is made up of around 500 muscles, 200 bones, 500 ligaments and 1000 tendons. If you are an engineer, you can look at how all these components are linked together to create movement. A skeleton is just a bunch of levers and joints; we should be able to mechanically replicate this same range of movement easily, but we can't.

Every advance in robotic engineering comes about by teams of engineers using intelligent design. The robots we produce now are highly complex, but still primitive compared to our human bodies. Every future improvement will come about by intelligent design.

I understand the theory behind random mutation and natural selection. I sincerely believe that blind evolution could not produce the mechanics of a skeletal system that teams of our best engineers can't, there is just too much individual detail. The only way I believe evolution could happen is if God was directing it. But that is in conflict with random mutation; because if God directed evolution, how could you call mutations random?

In the spirit of searching for God,
Eric
Reply

M.I.A.
07-26-2019, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Ok prove it ,
You will have solved a problem philosophy have been wrestling with for centuries.

How would you prove we are not part of a computer programme ?

wrong question.

the hypothesis is that we all live in a computer simulation.. the reason being is that at some point in time, humans pass the limit of technology required to achieve such a feat.

well basically what sort of technology is required for such a thing? whats the limiting factors? cumputer chips? ram? the fundamental process by which processes are processed? lol.

in the end you would probably be better off creating a "biological" mechanism.. a piece of machinery that runs processes specifically and efficiently..

maybe even to the point that it can repair itself and regulate itself so that minimal external upkeep is required.

...because who wants to be sat infront of a computer all day.

so now you have a biological simulation of reality, its exactly the same as your computer simulation of reality except much more efficient.. its just using a different word for "computer"


...its one step away from believing in a creator.

which the computer simulation theory also does..


except one believes man to be the creator and the other...something else.


i dont know what the point of even making the comparison is?


how would i prove we are not in a computer program? ...i wouldnt even put my mind to the task, more important questions would arise if i felt something existed beyond what most people recognise as reality.


..im not watching the matrix again T_T

maybe a change of media is required... although it was probably watched by millions upon millions of people, and it didnt even offend your sensibilities chalk!! (of offending your personal religion...al rights and views...dont push your religon on me! ...you probably never said)


in conclusion....monotheism pretty much implies that we are living in a computer simulation..

....it just doesnt know what a computer is yet.



plz click the link...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7jRWvdR5XQ


i hope you understand.

edit,
..i didnt even read eric's post until after i had posted, its much the same thing..

its often a case of perspective, we all live in the same world.
Reply

chalks75
07-26-2019, 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
wrong question.

the hypothesis is that we all live in a computer simulation.. the reason being is that at some point in time, humans pass the limit of technology required to achieve such a feat.

well basically what sort of technology is required for such a thing? whats the limiting factors? cumputer chips? ram? the fundamental process by which processes are processed? lol.

in the end you would probably be better off creating a "biological" mechanism.. a piece of machinery that runs processes specifically and efficiently..

maybe even to the point that it can repair itself and regulate itself so that minimal external upkeep is required.

...because who wants to be sat infront of a computer all day.

so now you have a biological simulation of reality, its exactly the same as your computer simulation of reality except much more efficient.. its just using a different word for "computer"


...its one step away from believing in a creator.

which the computer simulation theory also does..


except one believes man to be the creator and the other...something else.


i dont know what the point of even making the comparison is?


how would i prove we are not in a computer program? ...i wouldnt even put my mind to the task, more important questions would arise if i felt something existed beyond what most people recognise as reality.


..im not watching the matrix again T_T

maybe a change of media is required... although it was probably watched by millions upon millions of people, and it didnt even offend your sensibilities chalk!! (of offending your personal religion...al rights and views...dont push your religon on me! ...you probably never said)


in conclusion....monotheism pretty much implies that we are living in a computer simulation..

....it just doesnt know what a computer is yet.



plz click the link...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7jRWvdR5XQ


i hope you understand.

edit,
..i didnt even read eric's post until after i had posted, its much the same thing..

its often a case of perspective, we all live in the same world.

The point is not wether we are or were not.
(I don’t believe we are.)

The point is you cannot prove that we are not.
Your objections , could you prove that you have not been programmed to have those objections.
You can’t , it’s the problem of hard solipsism.

The reason I bring this up , is because another poster on here said , they knew with 100% certainty that allah is a real god.

I don’t think it’s possible to know anything with 100% certainty.

Everything comes in degrees, even scientific theories , which are the most rigorous investigations we do .... are not considered as the set in stone truth , there is always some room left for new evidence.

To have a dogmatic belief like ... “this is the truth , and no amount of argument or evidence will ever make me change my mind “
Is unhealthy , it’s good to change your mind , it’s how we grow and evolve.

Im not sure what you meant about “ don’t push your religion on me “
What is that in relation to ?
The matrix film
Reply

M.I.A.
07-26-2019, 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
The point is not wether we are or were not.
(I don’t believe we are.)

The point is you cannot prove that we are not.
Your objections , could you prove that you have not been programmed to have those objections.
You can’t , it’s the problem of hard solipsism.

The reason I bring this up , is because another poster on here said , they knew with 100% certainty that allah is a real god.

I don’t think it’s possible to know anything with 100% certainty.

Everything comes in degrees, even scientific theories , which are the most rigorous investigations we do .... are not considered as the set in stone truth , there is always some room left for new evidence.

To have a dogmatic belief like ... “this is the truth , and no amount of argument or evidence will ever make me change my mind “
Is unhealthy , it’s good to change your mind , it’s how we grow and evolve.

Im not sure what you meant about “ don’t push your religion on me “
What is that in relation to ?
The matrix film
I cant understand!!

You cant get past the question!

Your still asking people to prove god exists..

And then questioning the existence of free will..free thought even, these are big questions mate..

Minority report will not answer them.

I did my dissertation in personality studies.. I'm not even lying.

Jung, Socrates, Freud.. tip toed through a lot of things.

It's not cool, maybe I can just leave you to your own thought processes and ask to be left with mine.

Because even learning is directed.
Reply

chalks75
07-26-2019, 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
I cant understand!!

You cant get past the question!

Your still asking people to prove god exists..

And then questioning the existence of free will..free thought even, these are big questions mate..

Minority report will not answer them.

I did my dissertation in personality studies.. I'm not even lying.

Jung, Socrates, Freud.. tip toed through a lot of things.

It's not cool, maybe I can just leave you to your own thought processes and ask to be left with mine.

Because even learning is directed.
How do you know you have free will ?
Reply

Studentofdeed
07-26-2019, 10:54 PM
Why do Hindus believe that their gods are real
Why do Christians believe Jesus is a real god
Why did the Greeks believe Zeus was a real god
Why did the Norse believe you went to Valhalla after you die
Why do some people believe the earth is flat , or that aliens cost earth and abduct people.


Okay so first people think earth is flat because they are not knowledgeable and when maps were created they were created flat. And when we look at the horizon does it curve or look consistent? It looks consistent when led to many people believing earth is flat. Quran says the earth is not flat but rather like a turban the day and night wrap around it...which reveals the earth is round and not flat.

Second hindu lots of muslim scholars belive that it once may have been a religion of god revealed to a specific nation at the time. God keeps sending new message and new prophets when mankind goes astray and the message corrupted when the books get changed or lost. Hinduism used to be a religion of one god and even in hindu scriptures predicted the coming of Muhmmad SAW. God has many characteristics from the Hindus split each of those characteristics into individual gods and startes worshiping them claiming that they are helping them worship the true god which then with time they started to belive the made up gods were gods.

Christian's like the jews originally used to belive jesus was a man of god but the teachings got corrupted by man names paul the saint. He used to persecute the jews. Not only that emperor Constantine the Roman emperor used to kill Christian's but later became christian. He was a pagan but when he became Christian he wanted the pagan aspect in the new christian so he again killed all the Christian's that worshiped one god to silence the opposing sects. He liked the idea of worshiping multiple gods hence the trinity.

Now the idea of Zeus's and the multiple gods. It's not possible and its man made concept. Because if there were gods and they were always warring there would chaos everywhere ..this is what the QURAN SAYS.

Valhalla and the Roman gods is the same as the greek gods. These are made up by humans. The first time mankind made gods and started worshiping was in the beginning there were very pious men. They worshiped god and very good people. When they died the devil came and tricked humans. He said build a statue of them so you can be reminded to worship god. Then the next generation he told them give respect to statue. Then the next generation he said just bow your head little bit. Then next and next the devil kept leading them astray until eventually he said these are your gods. Worship them. This is how the concept of idolism originated.

Islam is the only logical religion that hasnt been unadulterated and consistent. It is the final message and is for ALL mankind. The other religions are religion of god but they serve their purpose for a specific nation for specific time.
Reply

M.I.A.
07-27-2019, 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
How do you know you have free will ?
i dont know i have free will.. i have an understanding of free will, but it may be different to yours because of what i believe.



so basically, maybe i make a wrong decision.. and i feel the repercussions of that wrong decision.. in whatever form they manifest, next time i may not do something in the same way.. or at all.

has my free will been limited by my experience? because i dont want to do that again..or for that to happen again.


maybe i might learn to take precautions and keep making that wrong decision or learn a method by which to protect myself before making that wrong decision.. then it just becomes a decision..

has my free will been compromised? because now i have to plan?


so as you can see, this is my thought process.. free will is a reinforcement of character.

...so i have to ask, does my "character" limit or compromise my free will?


yes it does.

and thats literally a grain of sand on the beach known as free will.

people may joke, thats exactly the sort of thing we expected you to do.. and i dont know what you would say to someone that knows you that well.


maybe you meant free will in another context, in a more generalised or specific way..

predestination or another concept..

i believe in such a thing, im just entirely unsure what to do about it.. which is about as close to a truthful joke as your going to get.

Maybe you live in a small town and are constantly bumping into people you know.. hardly spooky since it's a "small town" and "people you know" ..but your probably not stalking them and neither they you..

Is free will the important issue?

I admit.. if all I could say was peace then I would be far happier in my skin..

But sometimes you cant help what comes out unintentionally.

It's hardly an issue of free will, god knows how many conversations are held daily or the insignificance they have.

Free will is almost irrelevant at this point, I just need to keep my conscience clean..

So the religious answer is that I have free will and at the same time, I do not have free will.. with god being omnipotent, omniscience n all.

Does that equate to not having free will?

Cant it be both until it's one or the other?

...like Schrödinger's cat but different.


I have a voice at the back of my mind telling me im deluded.. arnt we all?
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i dont know i have free will.. i have an understanding of free will, but it may be different to yours because of what i believe.



so basically, maybe i make a wrong decision.. and i feel the repercussions of that wrong decision.. in whatever form they manifest, next time i may not do something in the same way.. or at all.

has my free will been limited by my experience? because i dont want to do that again..or for that to happen again.


maybe i might learn to take precautions and keep making that wrong decision or learn a method by which to protect myself before making that wrong decision.. then it just becomes a decision..

has my free will been compromised? because now i have to plan?


so as you can see, this is my thought process.. free will is a reinforcement of character.

...so i have to ask, does my "character" limit or compromise my free will?


yes it does.

and thats literally a grain of sand on the beach known as free will.

people may joke, thats exactly the sort of thing we expected you to do.. and i dont know what you would say to someone that knows you that well.


maybe you meant free will in another context, in a more generalised or specific way..

predestination or another concept..

i believe in such a thing, im just entirely unsure what to do about it.. which is about as close to a truthful joke as your going to get.

Maybe you live in a small town and are constantly bumping into people you know.. hardly spooky since it's a "small town" and "people you know" ..but your probably not stalking them and neither they you..

Is free will the important issue?

I admit.. if all I could say was peace then I would be far happier in my skin..

But sometimes you cant help what comes out unintentionally.

It's hardly an issue of free will, god knows how many conversations are held daily or the insignificance they have.

Free will is almost irrelevant at this point, I just need to keep my conscience clean..

So the religious answer is that I have free will and at the same time, I do not have free will.. with god being omnipotent, omniscience n all.

Does that equate to not having free will?

Cant it be both until it's one or the other?

...like Schrödinger's cat but different.


I have a voice at the back of my mind telling me im deluded.. arnt we all?

No it can’t be both
You can’t have free will and not have free at the same time.
That is a logical contradiction.

If you believe I pre-destination , then you have no free will.
Everything you think or do , is pre-determined then you are a “robot “ preforming a role.
Reply

Eric H
07-27-2019, 06:12 AM
Greetings and peace be with you chalky,
Originally Posted by chalks75
To have a dogmatic belief like ... “this is the truth , and no amount of argument or evidence will ever make me change my mind “
Is unhealthy
Forgive me for saying this, but your atheism comes across as dogmatic, as does your belief in the theory of evolution.

Originally Posted by chalks75
Everything comes in degrees, even scientific theories , which are the most rigorous investigations we do .... are not considered as the set in stone truth , there is always some room left for new evidence.
The theory of evolution seems very much set in stone, despite all the assumptions that have to be made in order to make it work.

In the spirit of searching for God
Eric
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 06:12 AM
Originally Posted by Studentofdeed
Why do Hindus believe that their gods are real
Why do Christians believe Jesus is a real god
Why did the Greeks believe Zeus was a real god
Why did the Norse believe you went to Valhalla after you die
Why do some people believe the earth is flat , or that aliens cost earth and abduct people.


Okay so first people think earth is flat because they are not knowledgeable and when maps were created they were created flat. And when we look at the horizon does it curve or look consistent? It looks consistent when led to many people believing earth is flat. Quran says the earth is not flat but rather like a turban the day and night wrap around it...which reveals the earth is round and not flat.

Second hindu lots of muslim scholars belive that it once may have been a religion of god revealed to a specific nation at the time. God keeps sending new message and new prophets when mankind goes astray and the message corrupted when the books get changed or lost. Hinduism used to be a religion of one god and even in hindu scriptures predicted the coming of Muhmmad SAW. God has many characteristics from the Hindus split each of those characteristics into individual gods and startes worshiping them claiming that they are helping them worship the true god which then with time they started to belive the made up gods were gods.

Christian's like the jews originally used to belive jesus was a man of god but the teachings got corrupted by man names paul the saint. He used to persecute the jews. Not only that emperor Constantine the Roman emperor used to kill Christian's but later became christian. He was a pagan but when he became Christian he wanted the pagan aspect in the new christian so he again killed all the Christian's that worshiped one god to silence the opposing sects. He liked the idea of worshiping multiple gods hence the trinity.

Now the idea of Zeus's and the multiple gods. It's not possible and its man made concept. Because if there were gods and they were always warring there would chaos everywhere ..this is what the QURAN SAYS.

Valhalla and the Roman gods is the same as the greek gods. These are made up by humans. The first time mankind made gods and started worshiping was in the beginning there were very pious men. They worshiped god and very good people. When they died the devil came and tricked humans. He said build a statue of them so you can be reminded to worship god. Then the next generation he told them give respect to statue. Then the next generation he said just bow your head little bit. Then next and next the devil kept leading them astray until eventually he said these are your gods. Worship them. This is how the concept of idolism originated.

Islam is the only logical religion that hasnt been unadulterated and consistent. It is the final message and is for ALL mankind. The other religions are religion of god but they serve their purpose for a specific nation for specific time.

Isn’t in strange
If you ask a Christian , their religion is the only logical religion
If you ask a Jew , their religion is the logical choice
A Hindu , will tell you that Hinduism is the logical choice
The Greeks, the Romans , the Norse , would tell you that their religion is the logical choice.
And you tell me yours is.

Every believers believes that their religion , is the right one.
It’s what every religion teaches .
It’s what you’ve been taught , has it not.
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 07:07 AM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalky,


Forgive me for saying this, but your atheism comes across as dogmatic, as does your belief in the theory of evolution.



The theory of evolution seems very much set in stone, despite all the assumptions that have to be made in order to make it work.

In the spirit of searching for God
Eric
My atheism is certainly not dogmatic ,
If someone can provide evidence that convinced me that a god is real , then I will believe a god is real.

The theory of evolution is open to be disproved , evidence will modify it.

If someone disproved evolution , then I would no longer believe it’s true.

Are you aware how science works ?

A scientist will propose a hypothesis , publish a paper ( Darwin proposed evolution )
Right away , other scientists set about trying to disprove it , ( it’s easier to disprove something,) , after 20 years of scientists being unable to disprove it , they gave it the honour of being called a theory ( theories explains facts).

It’s been over 150 years since Darwin published his paper , and no one has been able to disprove it , on the contrary , in their attempts to disprove it they find more and more evidence to support it.

Do you realise how easy it would be to disprove if it were untrue.
Reply

Studentofdeed
07-27-2019, 08:45 AM
I gave you so many details and facts yet still you ignore them. Darwin HIMSELF said there has to be creator who designed all this. He never denied there was a creator. Islam agrees about evolution and dinosaurs. In the quran it says god has created things we have no knowledge of. One of gods 99 names is the evolver. So islam doesnt reject evolution. The only thing we reject is that humans came from monkey.
Reply

M.I.A.
07-27-2019, 09:44 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
No it can’t be both
You can’t have free will and not have free at the same time.
That is a logical contradiction.

If you believe I pre-destination , then you have no free will.
Everything you think or do , is pre-determined then you are a “robot “ preforming a role.
Sure..

I'm a robot.

In a world full of humans.

Does that make any sense to you? ..because your saying it.

Why are you saying it? Is it an analogy of sorts? Is it true in any way?

..maybe you wrote it as a false premise, and we know it cant be true.


At this point I realised that I had no idea what solipsism is so I googled it.

Solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's mind is sure to exist. As an epistemological position, solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure; the external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist outside the mind.


..what are the implications of such a theory? ..And what benefit can be gained from knowing.

I find it hard to believe that it in itself is anything more that a loose analogy of something more complicated..

But in reality it sounds like an answer to a question.

What was the question?



I thought maybe I was missing something.. so I downloaded a picture.. even if this is not the understanding of solipsism.. this is actually the understanding of solipsism.

Attachment 6742

...and this second pic gave me the realisation.

It's not that your saying im a robot and the rest of the world is human.

Your saying your human and the rest of the world are robots.

Attachment 6743


Maybe we should just believe in probability and learn to count cards

:|

Or wait for another person to give views, explanations and perspectives on predestination and solipsism.

But in conclusion, your mind making "reality" real is also a few short steps away from believing in a creator..

Except from another angle.. and maybe another grain of sand on the beach of free will.
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 10:10 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
Sure..

I'm a robot.

In a world full of humans.

Does that make any sense to you? ..because your saying it.

Why are you saying it? Is it an analogy of sorts? Is it true in any way?

..maybe you wrote it as a false premise, and we know it cant be true.


At this point I realised that I had no idea what solipsism is so I googled it.

Solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's mind is sure to exist. As an epistemological position, solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure; the external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist outside the mind.


..what are the implications of such a theory? ..And what benefit can be gained from knowing.

I find it hard to believe that it in itself is anything more that a loose analogy of something more complicated..

But in reality it sounds like an answer to a question.

What was the question?



I thought maybe I was missing something.. so I downloaded a picture.. even if this is not the understanding of solipsism.. this is actually the understanding of solipsism.

Attachment 6742

...and this second pic gave me the realisation.

It's not that your saying im a robot and the rest of the world is human.

Your saying your human and the rest of the world are robots.

Attachment 6743


Maybe we should just believe in probability and learn to count cards

:|

Or wait for another person to give views, explanations and perspectives on predestination and solipsism.
I’m not saying that at all.

I’m saying if there is an infallible omniscient god, then free will is an illusion.
It’s possible it’s an illusion anyway god or not.

I’m glad you googled solipsism, at least you know what we are talking about now.

So now you see what solipsism is , you can see that when someone said to me ( as they have on this forum )
That they know with 100% certainty that there is a god , that I’m not inclined to believe them.

Solipsism is the reasons we must make presuppositions to investigate the world.

I presuppose that
1. The universe exists
2. It is intelligible
3. I am part of it
These are the only presuppositions that I make

What presuppositions do you make ?
Reply

M.I.A.
07-27-2019, 10:41 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
I’m not saying that at all.

I’m saying if there is an infallible omniscient god, then free will is an illusion.
It’s possible it’s an illusion anyway god or not.

I’m glad you googled solipsism, at least you know what we are talking about now.

So now you see what solipsism is , you can see that when someone said to me ( as they have on this forum )
That they know with 100% certainty that there is a god , that I’m not inclined to believe them.

Solipsism is the reasons we must make presuppositions to investigate the world.

I presuppose that
1. The universe exists
2. It is intelligible
3. I am part of it
These are the only presuppositions that I make

What presuppositions do you make ?
exactly lol, i knew that you dont ascribe to solipsism.. its just something you know about.

it does not detract from something someone else believes.. unfortunately i cant take solipsism seriously.

its fundamentally flawed.

the case is not if the taj mahal exists while i observe the Eiffel tower.. but rather in what state will i observe the Eiffel tower.. mentally.

this is a video explaining solipsism.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv4bKg8YAD8

whats important and totally has the goalposts moved on it.. is the introduction of the video.

observe the interaction between the guy and his friend. *


what do you think?

i have to go do things so i will probably think about your post later on.


You cant really make headway on your question can you, either god exists or god does not exist..

You can choose to sit in either camp, but I dont know if you will be happy just sitting.

*
...wouldn't it be funny if he cant leave the train station.
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
exactly lol, i knew that you dont ascribe to solipsism.. its just something you know about.

it does not detract from something someone else believes.. unfortunately i cant take solipsism seriously.

its fundamentally flawed.

the case is not if the taj mahal exists while i observe the Eiffel tower.. but rather in what state will i observe the Eiffel tower.. mentally.

this is a video explaining solipsism.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv4bKg8YAD8

whats important and totally has the goalposts moved on it.. is the introduction of the video.

observe the interaction between the guy and his friend. *


what do you think?

i have to go do things so i will probably think about your post later on.


You cant really make headway on your question can you, either god exists or god does not exist..

You can choose to sit in either camp, but I dont know if you will be happy just sitting.

*
...wouldn't it be funny if he cant leave the train station.
Solipsism isn’t something you ascribe to.

It’s a problem that we all have to deal with .
I’m not saying we are living in a matrix , I’m saying it can’t be proved that we are not.

So where does that leave the guy who told me , he knows with 100% certainty that a god exists.


“it does not detract from something someone else believes.. unfortunately i cant take solipsism seriously”.

This is my point , a person can believe something , but can they know it with 100% certainty.
So when the poster on this forum said “ I know 100% there is a god , you can see why I don’t take that claim seriously.

If he had said , I dont know if there is a god , but I 100% believe there is , then that’s ok

You dont have to take it seriously , all you have to do is acknowledge it.

The only way you or I can get around this problem is if we make pre-suppositions.
The less the better.
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 12:33 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75,



Evolution is not in conflict with my religious beliefs, it is in conflict with my basic understanding of mechanical engineering. The human body is made up of around 500 muscles, 200 bones, 500 ligaments and 1000 tendons. If you are an engineer, you can look at how all these components are linked together to create movement. A skeleton is just a bunch of levers and joints; we should be able to mechanically replicate this same range of movement easily, but we can't.

Every advance in robotic engineering comes about by teams of engineers using intelligent design. The robots we produce now are highly complex, but still primitive compared to our human bodies. Every future improvement will come about by intelligent design.

I understand the theory behind random mutation and natural selection. I sincerely believe that blind evolution could not produce the mechanics of a skeletal system that teams of our best engineers can't, there is just too much individual detail. The only way I believe evolution could happen is if God was directing it. But that is in conflict with random mutation; because if God directed evolution, how could you call mutations random?

In the spirit of searching for God,
Eric
Either we were created by a god , or we were not.
If the Quran , or your religion claims we were created by a god ... then that claim is either right or wrong.

Evolution states that we evolved , we were not created in a special creation event.
( unless , you are saying that god began life , and everything evolved from it )

Let me ask you this , since you are an engineer.

If you were to design a structure to support a 10lb weight , with the range of motion the human head has .... would you put three curves in it ?
Would this not put unnecessary stress on the lower part of the structure ?

Why does the spine have 3 curves ?
This causes billions of people to have lower back pain .... not a great bit of design.
Reply

M.I.A.
07-27-2019, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Solipsism isn’t something you ascribe to.

It’s a problem that we all have to deal with .
I’m not saying we are living in a matrix , I’m saying it can’t be proved that we are not.

So where does that leave the guy who told me , he knows with 100% certainty that a god exists.


“it does not detract from something someone else believes.. unfortunately i cant take solipsism seriously”.

This is my point , a person can believe something , but can they know it with 100% certainty.
So when the poster on this forum said “ I know 100% there is a god , you can see why I don’t take that claim seriously.

If he had said , I dont know if there is a god , but I 100% believe there is , then that’s ok

You dont have to take it seriously , all you have to do is acknowledge it.

The only way you or I can get around this problem is if we make pre-suppositions.
The less the better.
For him god exists..

As an external and internal part of his reality.

His understanding of god could be anything.

..its like pointing to the sun and saying god exists.

The sun exists.

So by extension..

Anyway, your argument is not seeing the wood for the trees.

I have no doubt that you exist.

...but in what form you exist.. I dont know yet.

What part of my thought processes, ideologies, ego, psyche, subconsciousness you mirror.

And if your strong enough not to.

Dont get stuck thinking about people pointing at the moon and saying God exists.


Went to get trainers for my kid, ended up walking past an EDL protest... not cool, cant find it on any news yet.

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
I presuppose that
1. The universe exists
2. It is intelligible
3. I am part of it
These are the only presuppositions that I make

What presuppositions do you make ?
1. yes
2. yes
2. yes

well in this case,

4. god exists..

so what do you find... looking for god?

you might not be looking for god, most people take time out to "find themselves" whatever that means.

at the end of the day, if 1, 2 and 3 are more than simplistic answers.. people have dedicated entire lives and fields of study towards them.


as an atheist, your not going to get further than wanting proof of gods existence.

we cant get past that point..

maybe you should go looking for something else.
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
For him god exists..

As an external and internal part of his reality.

His understanding of god could be anything.

..its like pointing to the sun and saying god exists.

The sun exists.

So by extension..

Anyway, your argument is not seeing the wood for the trees.

I have no doubt that you exist.

...but in what form you exist.. I dont know yet.

What part of my thought processes, ideologies, ego, psyche, subconsciousness you mirror.

And if your strong enough not to.

Dont get stuck thinking about people pointing at the moon and saying God exists.


Went to get trainers for my kid, ended up walking past an EDL protest... not cool, cant find it on any news yet.



1. yes
2. yes
2. yes

well in this case,

4. god exists..

so what do you find... looking for god?

you might not be looking for god, most people take time out to "find themselves" whatever that means.

at the end of the day, if 1, 2 and 3 are more than simplistic answers.. people have dedicated entire lives and fields of study towards them.
EDL, are a bunch of morons.
I welcome diversity, variety is the spice of life.
Live and let live , is what I say.
The rise of right wing fundamentalism is very concerning, in fact fundamentalism in any guise is concerning religious or political, I was brought up in N Ireland in the 70s and 80s I’m painfully aware of the dangers offundamentalism, and nationalism .
I imagine being a Muslim at this time , would be very much like being black in the 50s.

“ for him god exists “
Either a god exists or a god does not
A god may “ exist” in his mind , but that is not the same as a god existing in reality.

Your missing the point , I’ve no doubt that you exist ,, it’s what we can prove , I can’t prove you exist 100%, I could probably prove it 99.9% ,

1,2,3 are the necessary pre-suppositions I must make to enable me to make sense of the universe , these are the least amount that I can make.

I’m not sure how you make the logical connection between 1,2,3 and a god exists.

If I were to give you my opinion
I’ve been studying religions for about 8-9 years , talking to religious people , mostly Christians , and Hindus , and a few Jews .

I think god or gods are a concept , they are an attempt by us to explain the universe and our place in it.
There are no real gods
There are only people that believe gods are real.
Cultures ,people , tribes , when faced with fundament questions like , how did life begin , or how did the universe begin
Created answers ( gods) , it seems to be a common phenomenon throughout our history.
Reply

M.I.A.
07-27-2019, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
EDL, are a bunch of morons.
I welcome diversity, variety is the spice of life.
Live and let live , is what I say.
The rise of right wing fundamentalism is very concerning, in fact fundamentalism in any guise is concerning religious or political, I was brought up in N Ireland in the 70s and 80s I’m painfully aware of the dangers offundamentalism, and nationalism .
I imagine being a Muslim at this time , would be very much like being black in the 50s.

“ for him god exists “
Either a god exists or a god does not
A god may “ exist” in his mind , but that is not the same as a god existing in reality.

Your missing the point , I’ve no doubt that you exist ,, it’s what we can prove , I can’t prove you exist 100%, I could probably prove it 99.9% ,

1,2,3 are the necessary pre-suppositions I must make to enable me to make sense of the universe , these are the least amount that I can make.

I’m not sure how you make the logical connection between 1,2,3 and a god exists.

If I were to give you my opinion
I’ve been studying religions for about 8-9 years , talking to religious people , mostly Christians , and Hindus , and a few Jews .

I think god or gods are a concept , they are an attempt by us to explain the universe and our place in it.
There are no real gods
There are only people that believe gods are real.
Cultures ,people , tribes , when faced with fundament questions like , how did life begin , or how did the universe begin
Created answers ( gods) , it seems to be a common phenomenon throughout our history.
what does your morality create? what does other peoples morality create?

in reality i dont exist lol.

most of the things that go through my mind are put to the side in order to function, so much so that i dissociate them from myself.. they are not a real reflection of who i am and what i want to be.
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
what does your morality create? what does other peoples morality create?

in reality i dont exist lol.

most of the things that go through my mind are put to the side in order to function, so much so that i dissociate them from myself.. they are not a real reflection of who i am and what i want to be.

I am a secular humanist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

Morality is different all around the globe , somethings we agree on , done we don’t.
I think the important thing is to examine what you believe to be moral , and not just blindly follow , we must always be vigilant about what we are being told , and who is telling us, and why.

***********************

Thoughts are just thoughts , not particularly good or bad , it’s only when you act upon them does it become a moral issue.

In saying that , obsessively thinking positive or negative thoughts can have an impact on your mental health.
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by Studentofdeed
I gave you so many details and facts yet still you ignore them. Darwin HIMSELF said there has to be creator who designed all this. He never denied there was a creator. Islam agrees about evolution and dinosaurs. In the quran it says god has created things we have no knowledge of. One of gods 99 names is the evolver. So islam doesnt reject evolution. The only thing we reject is that humans came from monkey.
If you reject that we evolved from s common ancestor with apes ... then you reject evolution.

If the Quran says that we were created as fully formed humans .... then the Quran is at odds with science.
Both cannot be true.

Darwin was a Christian and a creationist , he set out to prove special creation.
The evidence he gathered , when he examined it ,led him to a different conclusion , he was honest enough and brave enough to follow the evidence.

( there was another scientist , Jean baptiste lamark , who came to the same conclusion as Darwin , working independently from Darwin , Darwin just published first , if Lanark had published first we would be discussing larmakian evolution )

Evolution is a fact , things evolve, this was know before Darwin’s time ,,, Darwin just discovered the mechanism by which it works
( natural selection )
Reply

Eric H
07-27-2019, 05:51 PM
Greetings and peace be with you chalky,

Originally Posted by chalks75
Either we were created by a god , or we were not.
You could be a 100% right or wrong on the toss of a coin.

Originally Posted by chalks75
If you were to design a structure to support a 10lb weight , with the range of motion the human head has .... would you put three curves in it ?
Would this not put unnecessary stress on the lower part of the structure ?

Why does the spine have 3 curves ?
I agree, we are not a perfect design; and I see death as the biggest imperfection. As to the spine having three curves, I would suggest this is more an argument against the theory of evolution. How and why should such a complex design evolve over thousand of years? You have the first part of the vertebra, which in itself is a complex shape, then in order for the second part of the vertebra to be of any use, it needs tendons, ligaments, muscles, nerves and a brain, repeat for each separate vertebra. Evolution seems to go against your idea of simple design.

Originally Posted by chalks75
This causes billions of people to have lower back pain .... not a great bit of design.
Even if God created us in a way that we did not suffer pain, we would still go around killing others and doing all the immoral stuff that happens in this world. As a species; we ignore the needs of the most vulnerable. About twenty thousand children die needlessly every day as a result of grinding poverty, preventable disease and starvation. This is not how God wants us to treat each other. There are enough resources to feed the poor, we just do not have enough to satisfy the rich.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by chalks75
No it can’t be both
You can’t have free will and not have free at the same time.
That is a logical contradiction.
If you come to a stop sign in the road, you have the freedom to ignore it. But you also know that if you willingly choose to ignore the stop sign, there is the chance that you could cause a horrific accident. We might be free to do most things, but not all things are good, sometimes it is better to give up our right to do anything we want. This does not make us robots because we obey laws, it makes us better citizens.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people,
Eric
Reply

yasoooo
07-27-2019, 05:51 PM
Chance in our life!
Is our birth due to chance?
Are our parents our Creators?

, but some will say that it is due to chance.
But scientifically this is not the case. The protein molecule is a very important structure of a living cell.
It is composed of 5 elements:
- The Carbon
- Nitrogen
- Oxygen
- Hydrogen
- Sulfur
Knowing that there are thousands of atoms that are required for a protein molecule, as in a building game, the elements will come together to eventually form and create a protein molecule.
Dr. Frank Allen (professor of Biophysics) has calculated the probability that this creative assemblage can be done, he says: "the chance that it can happen is 1/10160 is 0.00 ... .001."
If 1% = 0.01 is 1 / 10²; 0.1% = 0.001 (1 / 10³) is 1 chance in 1000, now imagine 1/10160!
In mathematics 1/1050 is considered 0. Chance is impossible.


Now how big is the substance needed to form a single molecule of protein? Let's not forget that we are talking about a protein molecule that is infinitely small. Charles Guy (physicist) measured the size of this substance and he says: "To form this molecule we need a substance that is as big as our galaxy thousands of times. Thousands of galaxies are needed to form a protein molecule. He also calculated the time required to form this molecule that is 10243 years, all for a single molecule.
Now how much protein molecule is there in a human cell? And how many cells are there in a human being?
Doctors tell us that there are more than 6 billion molecules in a newborn baby!
The probability that a protein molecule is formed by chance is 1/10160 and the time of this formation is 10243 years and in a newborn there are 6 billion molecules.
And how many women are pregnant at the same time, millions at the same time. According to statistics, there are 260 births per minute, so 374,000 per day or 136 million per year knowing that a birth takes only nine months. Science says the chances are downright ZERO.
According to an advertisement published in "Le Figaro" the number of cells in a human being is about 100,000 trillion and there are about 250 types in the body of every human being.



In each cell, there is a nucleus that contains the genes, the material that gives the instructions to the cell to function as well as to the organ and the body. And there is an instruction manual in the core of each cell. If we wish to put these instructions in the form of a book, it would be necessary to fill 900 books of 500 pages and this for only one cell! So what about 100,000 billion cells?
If we see writings on a beach then there is certainly intelligence and in each cell there is information then where does this information come from?
Certainly this is a very learned person.
Until then we have only talked about the human being, what about birds, insects, fish, ... animals in general, plants, fruits ... all having different characteristics, all coming from from the same earth, all needing water. Similarly for stars, planets, galaxies. The sun is placed at a good distance from us so that life can be developed there. The earth, rotating around the sun, follows a precise orbit so that every 30km it deviates only 2.8 mm. If the earth deviated a few millimeters from its orbit would cause a disaster on earth. If the deviation was 2.5mm, its orbit would be higher and we would all be frozen. And if the orbit was 3.1 it would burn. All this can not happen by coincidence!


Nature follows a plan designed in advance. After the explosion of the Big Bang everything was extremely well adjusted. Just as there is a DNA code there is a cosmological code that governs all of this. These things are not programmed by chance but by someone very powerful, very glorious and extremely learned and intelligent. Science tells us that there is someone, a super natural force, and the question, where do these laws come from and who wrote them?
Albert Einstein says in a letter sent to a child who asked him if he believed in God here is what he replied:
"All those who are seriously involved in science will eventually understand that a mind is manifested by the laws of the vast universe emancipation superior to that of man. "
Francis Bacon (French philosopher) says:
"A little knowledge takes you away from God Almighty. But a deep knowledge of science makes you a believer in God. "
Scientists do not eliminate God but the models of God ... we must meditate to believe and never confuse atheism and science.
We read different books, different authors but if a book relates to God dictated to one of his prophets, should not we make the effort to read it in full?

Similarly, if we do not understand one thing, we must make efforts to understand it, which is not difficult in our day.
Scientific Proof for Atheist on Existence of God...Answer By: ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuZh8Tt8v-A
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalky,



You could be a 100% right or wrong on the toss of a coin.



I agree, we are not a perfect design; and I see death as the biggest imperfection. As to the spine having three curves, I would suggest this is more an argument against the theory of evolution. How and why should such a complex design evolve over thousand of years? You have the first part of the vertebra, which in itself is a complex shape, then in order for the second part of the vertebra to be of any use, it needs tendons, ligaments, muscles, nerves and a brain, repeat for each separate vertebra. Evolution seems to go against your idea of simple design.



Even if God created us in a way that we did not suffer pain, we would still go around killing others and doing all the immoral stuff that happens in this world. As a species; we ignore the needs of the most vulnerable. About twenty thousand children die needlessly every day as a result of grinding poverty, preventable disease and starvation. This is not how God wants us to treat each other. There are enough resources to feed the poor, we just do not have enough to satisfy the rich.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people,
Eric
It’s a law of logic , something is or it is not , it can’t be both.

Isn’t in funny how religions always offer sone kind of eternal life , you would nearly think some people had a pathological fear of death.
For me death is a part of life , the fact that life is so short is what makes it precious.

There is an evolutionary explanation as to why there are 3 curves in our spine.

If god designed it , then he designed it badly on purpose , knowing it would cause us pain ... that is evil

Between you me and god, only one of us had the power to end all those social problems ...

Consider this , would you watch a person starve to death , if you had the power to help ,
I know I wouldnt , I do .

Yet , every single man , woman , child , that has ever starved to death ... god had the power to help , yet he choose not to.

That is evil
Reply

yasoooo
07-27-2019, 08:03 PM
The Solar
The notion of a settled place for the sun is vividly described in chapter Yaa Seen of the Qur’an:
“The sun runs its coarse to a settled place That is the decree of the Almighty, the All Knowing.” Qur’an, 36:38
“Settled place” is the translation of the word mustaqarr which indicates an exact appointed place and time. Modern astronomy confirms that the solar system is indeed moving in space at a rate of 12 miles per second towards a point situated in the constellation of Hercules ( alpha lyrae ) whose exact location has been precisely calculated. Astronomers have even give it a name, the solar apex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po65ViMfwTE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqw91ihJcQw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4SiHSCemT8

Among the achievements of modern science is the “conquest” of space which has resulted in mans journey to the moon. The prediction of this event surely springs to mind when we read the chapter ar-Rahmaan in the Qur’an:
“O assembly of Jinns and men, if you can penetrate the regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate them! You will not penetrate them except with authority.”
Qur’an,55:33
Authority to travel in space can only come from the Creator of the laws which govern movement and space. The whole of this Qur’anic chapter invites humankind to recognize God’s beneficence.

At this point, we must ask ourselves the following question: How could an uneducated man in the middle of the desert accurately tackle so many and such varied subjects at a time when mythology and superstition reigned supreme? How could he so skillfully avoid every belief that was proven to be totally inaccurate many centuries later?


THE SEAL OF ALL THE PROPHETS MUHAMMAD PBUH - Muhammad Abdul Jabbar | ALQADRMEDIA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blxHYZfX78k
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by yasoooo
The Solar
The notion of a settled place for the sun is vividly described in chapter Yaa Seen of the Qur’an:
“The sun runs its coarse to a settled place That is the decree of the Almighty, the All Knowing.” Qur’an, 36:38
“Settled place” is the translation of the word mustaqarr which indicates an exact appointed place and time. Modern astronomy confirms that the solar system is indeed moving in space at a rate of 12 miles per second towards a point situated in the constellation of Hercules ( alpha lyrae ) whose exact location has been precisely calculated. Astronomers have even give it a name, the solar apex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po65ViMfwTE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqw91ihJcQw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4SiHSCemT8

Among the achievements of modern science is the “conquest” of space which has resulted in mans journey to the moon. The prediction of this event surely springs to mind when we read the chapter ar-Rahmaan in the Qur’an:
“O assembly of Jinns and men, if you can penetrate the regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate them! You will not penetrate them except with authority.”
Qur’an,55:33
Authority to travel in space can only come from the Creator of the laws which govern movement and space. The whole of this Qur’anic chapter invites humankind to recognize God’s beneficence.

At this point, we must ask ourselves the following question: How could an uneducated man in the middle of the desert accurately tackle so many and such varied subjects at a time when mythology and superstition reigned supreme? How could he so skillfully avoid every belief that was proven to be totally inaccurate many centuries later?


THE SEAL OF ALL THE PROPHETS MUHAMMAD PBUH - Muhammad Abdul Jabbar | ALQADRMEDIA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blxHYZfX78k
The sun isn’t motionless
Not only does it spin but nuts axis , it’s also part of a spiral galaxy that spins , and that galaxy is also moving through space.

Instead of going through your book and trying to find verses that you can interpret in a way that seems to coincide with our modern world, “ this must have have meant that “

Why don’t you give me a verse that describes a future scientific discovery.

What’s a jinn?

If it isn’t to much trouble could you quote the verse before and after 55:53

And the verse before and after 36:38

It’s important for context
Reply

Eric H
07-27-2019, 10:30 PM
Greetings and peace be with you chalky,
Originally Posted by chalks75
If god designed it , then he designed it badly on purpose , knowing it would cause us pain ... that is evil
The human vertebral column has four curves (or arches) to help support the upright posture. ... If humans had a perfectly straight backbone, we would have major pains such as arthritis throughout the spine because there will be no distribution of weight and more pressure on the bones.

Originally Posted by chalks75
Consider this , would you watch a person starve to death , if you had the power to help ,
I know I would , I do .
I also help, as do many people with a faith.

Originally Posted by chalks75
Yet , every single man , woman , child , that has ever starved to death ... god had the power to help , yet he choose not to.

That is evil
Humanity is evil, not God. God sent you, me and everyone else to be a part of the solution. Scriptures are full of passages about helping the poor, oppressed, refugees, widows and orphans. If we all obeyed God, there would be no problems. And just think, if people have died as a result of injustice in this life, God can grant them eternal happiness in the next. We are powerless to put any injustice right.

Originally Posted by chalks75
Isn’t in funny how religions always offer sone kind of eternal life , you would nearly think some people had a pathological fear of death.
We have the offer of eternal life if we strive to do the will of God, but as you say, life is to be lived. In 2011 I had tests done for cancer, about a month later the doctor phoned and said he urgently wanted to see me, it was non – Hodgkin Lymphoma. This was a name I recognised, our friend had this cancer, and died a few months later. I prayed for the wisdom, strength and peace to do God’s will, whether the cancer was a death sentence, or just an inconvenience. I can only say that from the moment of making this prayer, I have experienced a profound sense of peace, and the thought of cancer has never troubled me for a moment.

Cancer could be a truly worrying process, you wait a month or two for tests, you wait for the results, and you wait for more tests. I have never once prayed for healing, at the age of 62, the prayer for healing seemed too complicated, it might or might not be my time to go. Recognising this profound sense of peace comes from God, gives me reason to be thankful.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people,
Eric
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalky,


The human vertebral column has four curves (or arches) to help support the upright posture. ... If humans had a perfectly straight backbone, we would have major pains such as arthritis throughout the spine because there will be no distribution of weight and more pressure on the bones.



I also help, as do many people with a faith.



Humanity is evil, not God. God sent you, me and everyone else to be a part of the solution. Scriptures are full of passages about helping the poor, oppressed, refugees, widows and orphans. If we all obeyed God, there would be no problems. And just think, if people have died as a result of injustice in this life, God can grant them eternal happiness in the next. We are powerless to put any injustice right.



We have the offer of eternal life if we strive to do the will of God, but as you say, life is to be lived. In 2011 I had tests done for cancer, about a month later the doctor phoned and said he urgently wanted to see me, it was non – Hodgkin Lymphoma. This was a name I recognised, our friend had this cancer, and died a few months later. I prayed for the wisdom, strength and peace to do God’s will, whether the cancer was a death sentence, or just an inconvenience. I can only say that from the moment of making this prayer, I have experienced a profound sense of peace, and the thought of cancer has never troubled me for a moment.

Cancer could be a truly worrying process, you wait a month or two for tests, you wait for the results, and you wait for more tests. I have never once prayed for healing, at the age of 62, the prayer for healing seemed too complicated, it might or might not be my time to go. Recognising this profound sense of peace comes from God, gives me reason to be thankful.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people,
Eric
Sorry to hear about the cancer , I hope it’s gone and it never returns[emoji106]

Are you saying the spine we have is the best god could do ,even though billions of people suffer from lower back pain , because it is the way it is ?

I agree there are some people who are evil .

But
If a person is evil for watching someone starve to death , why isn’t god.
He has watched billions starve , he could have helped them with a simple thought, yet he choose not to .... that is evil.

Do you think watching people starve to death is a good thing ?

God sent the scriptures ?
That hasn’t been much help to the millions that died before he sent them, the millions that will die since he sent them ... it’s not a great system he has going.

As for death , death is a natural part of life .
I imagine being dead , was like how I was before I was born.
I won’t know I’m dead , I will be aware of nothing

I can imagine the fear death holds for people , so it’s not surprising they would create and cling to a comfort blanket.
There are only two things we can be sure of “ death and taxes”

Your belief that you will go to paradise , is it any less ( I hesitate to use the word ) silly , than believing you will be reincarnated, you will go to Valhalla , that you will go to the sky to be with your ancestors.

Death is what makes life a precious and rare gift ....! If we live for eternity , then life is meaningless.
Reply

Zafran
07-28-2019, 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by Eric H
We have the offer of eternal life if we strive to do the will of God, but as you say, life is to be lived. In 2011 I had tests done for cancer, about a month later the doctor phoned and said he urgently wanted to see me, it was non – Hodgkin Lymphoma. This was a name I recognised, our friend had this cancer, and died a few months later. I prayed for the wisdom, strength and peace to do God’s will, whether the cancer was a death sentence, or just an inconvenience. I can only say that from the moment of making this prayer, I have experienced a profound sense of peace, and the thought of cancer has never troubled me for a moment.

Cancer could be a truly worrying process, you wait a month or two for tests, you wait for the results, and you wait for more tests. I have never once prayed for healing, at the age of 62, the prayer for healing seemed too complicated, it might or might not be my time to go. Recognising this profound sense of peace comes from God, gives me reason to be thankful.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people,
Eric
Hope your doing fine Eric. May God preserve you Bro and give you strength.
Reply

Eric H
07-28-2019, 07:56 AM
Greetings and peace be with you chalky, and thanks for the thumbs up,

Originally Posted by chalks75
Sorry to hear about the cancer , I hope it’s gone and it never returns
I am 70 now, I still work part time and do a fair amount of voluntary work, so I don't have the time to worry about cancer. The prayer for the wisdom and the peace to do God's will, is more important than the thought of death; I will try and explain how it works in another way.

I have been a volunteer street pastor for the last 11 years, we wonder the streets until around 4 am on a Saturday morning. We go out because we care about people, we listen and try to help when we can, we do not go out to preach. We meet a lot of wonderful people as well as drunks, anger, aggression, suicide, depression and we have asked people to hand us their knives.

I can remember the first big fight we saw, we walked round the corner and witnessed a dozen people punching the living daylights out of each other. We have a dilemma, on the one hand we have policies, risk assessments and a radio with a direct link to the police, our other choice is to pray as we go. As we approached I saw a man punched to the ground, another man was being kicked on the ground and a woman was punched in the face. Seconds later we are walking in the middle of all this turmoil trying to keep people apart and I am conscious of people all around me. I can only say that I experienced a profound sense of peace that is beyond my understanding, and after a short while the fighting stops. we stay with these people for some time, and when it is time to leave, we are given lots of handshakes and hugs.

At the time I was with two amazing ladies both in their seventies, logically it does not make sense that pensioners should be able to bring about peace in such circumstances, but I have witnessed this many times. The prayer for the peace to do God's will gives us the hope that something good can come about. God willing, I can still be doing this in another ten years when I am eighty.

In the spirit of praying for a peace that surpasses all understanding,
Eric
Reply

yasoooo
07-29-2019, 08:06 AM
The following is stated in a verse in the Quran: "…nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered) but is (inscribed) in a Clear Book (to those who can read)" (al-An'am 59). What is meant by the phrase, "Kitab al-Mubin" (Clear Book)? Islamic scholars interpreted it as both the Quran and "Lawh al-Mahfuz" (Prescribed Tablet).
Lawh al-Mahfuz is a tablet whose secret and content is known by Allah only and in which everything that is known by Allah and everything that happened and will happen is written. That is, it is the Qadar book of Allah.
We cannot claim that the verse denotes only one of those two possibilities. Then, it can be said that both Lawh al-Mahfuz and the Quran are meant by the phrase Kitab al-Mubin.


In this case, everything is written clearly in detail in Lawh al-Mahfuz and is summarized in the Quran. The difference between them is like the difference between a tree and its seed. For instance, a fig seed is as small as a point but it includes a big fig tree in it with all of its characteristics (its height, branches, leaves, fruits, taste, aroma, etc…); it carries all aspects (material and spiritual) of the fig tree in the genes that we cannot see in the form of programs. It is a reality proved scientifically.
Therefore, the important events of the past and the future are recorded in the Quran in the form of summaries and signs just like the seed.
However, it is not possible for everybody to see and understand it. Some scholars that are experts about the issue can perceive or see them.


It is normal for the following question to come to the mind: What is the reason why the scientific discoveries that are very important for the humanity like the plane, train and electricity are not explained clearly in the Quran? It is possible to answer this question, which comes to everybody’s mind, from a few aspects:
1- From the point of view of the main purpose of the Quran:The main purpose of the Quran is not to give us scientific information or to present us with historical information related to the past and the future. It is neither a book of history, geography, physics, chemistry or a book of discoveries and inventions. To look for the information that are found in those books in the Quran originates from lack of knowing the main purpose of the Quran and knowing it thoroughly.


First and foremost, the Quran is a book of religion. That is, it is a book informing people about Allah and their duties toward Allah. In fact, all religions try to explain “the Creator” and “the duties of the creatures”, which are two unknown things, for people. “Who is the Creator? What is the Creator? What kind of a being is He? What did He do? What is He doing? What is His purpose in creating people and things?”
Man wants to find out and understand those issues. We want to know and understand: “What are creatures? Where did they come from? What will happen to them in the end? What are their functions and duties in this world?”


The main purpose of the Quran is to inform people about their Lord and themselves by answering those questions.
The Quran mentions other creatures along with those issues. The earth and the sky, the moon, the sun and the stars, animals and trees, mountains, seas and rivers are all mentioned in the Quran. However, the reason why they are mentioned is the two purposes mentioned above: either to mention the power of Allah and His authority on them, and to inform people about Allah by using them as evidence and means or to mention their benefits and uses for people and to mention the purpose of their creation, to remind people of their duties of servitude and to encourage people to fulfill them.
Galaxies, the number of the stars, and scientific information like the diameter of the sun, its distance to the world, the rays it transmits, and the degree of its heat is not mentioned in the Quran because the information that describes those things is not important from the point of view of worshipping Allah. Despite all of its magnitude and service, the sun is mentioned as a “lamp” or “candle” in terms of its importance in the framework of worshipping. The world is sometimes a cradle and sometimes a mattress. The sky is a ceiling decorated with stars.


How can human inventions demand the right to be mentioned in the Quran while the vast universe is described like that? They are very small and insignificant in terms of their bodies and service compared to the components of the universe. Then, an indirect mentioning by the Quran for the human inventions is enough for them. We will see later that it is done like that.
2- From the point of view of the mystery of testing:Another reason why the Quran does not mention scientific inventions or the past and future events clearly enough for everybody to understand is a necessity of the mystery of testing. We mean this: Human beings were not created on a fixed and unchangeable ability like the other creatures. Man can progress (be elevated) or regress (descend) due to his nature. He can progress spiritually and surpass angels or he can regress ethically and fall down to a level lower than that of animals.
God Almighty did not leave man unattended after creating him like that. He taught human beings how to progress and reach lofty targets through prophets; He also showed them the obstacles that will prevent progress and the causes that will humiliate and lower them; He said to them, "Here are two ways before you; one of them leads to progress and the other leads to descent. Do not lower yourself by obeying Satan. Otherwise, you will be accounted for it and you will lose eternally."
The spiritual and even material elevation of man depends on choosing this true path, which is shown to him, with his free will. Life is an opportunity, a test given to man to make a choice.


It is necessary for man not to be forced while making a choice if the test is to be a real test and if he is to be accounted for what he did.
Prophets were sent in each era to renew this divine message; they explained the truths that were forgotten in the course of time and that were veiled in a way that the minds would understand. However, they did not force people. No prophet forced people to believe when they conveyed the divine message. In a way, the miracles that astonished the minds were not completely silencing and forcing people to believe. For instance, when the rod of Moses swallowed the illusory ropes of the magicians, they said,
"We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses" and believed in Allah; however, the Pharaoh said, "Surely this must be your leader, who has taught you magic" (Ta-Ha, 71) and continued to disbelieve. Similarly, when the Prophet (pbuh) split the moon into two when he pointed at it with his index finger upon the demand of the Makkan polytheists, they continued to resist by saying, "Muhammad started to influence the sky with his magic."
Thus, the religion is a test. In this test, a door is opened for the mind but the will of man is not removed. Then, it is contrary to this principle for the Quran to mention the technology human beings will invent and the events they will see in the future clearly enough for everybody to understand. In that case, nobody will be able to reject it; they will have to accept it.
3- From the point of view of gradual progress: As it is known, the law of gradualism is in question for man. This law made it possible for man to discover and invent various technologies and tools gradually when they were necessary and when man worked hard. If it had been a divine rule to mention science clearly in the heavenly books, it would have been contrary to the principle of gradual progress. Everything would have been given readily; so, man would not have had to work; there would have been communities of people at the same level everywhere since all people would have received the same message. It is contrary to the principle of gradualism, which is in question for man.


4- From the point of view of the honor of humanity:God Almighty allowed a great share of honor and pride to humanity by not mentioning science clearly in the Quran. It is a great honor for man, who is known as “the vicegerent on the earth” (dominant over the other living beings on the earth) and as “honorable”, to attain science and inventions by developing his ability through his personal efforts. Is there a human being that does not take pride in great discoverers and inventors that discovered America, that invented the alarm clock, Piri Reis, who drew the first world map, Ibn an-Nafs, who discovered the blood circulatory system, Edison, who discovered electricity, no matter what their nationalities are?
This honor is one of the millions of grants of God Almighty to humanity. The share of human beings in discoveries and inventions is present though very little; and it is a means of pride. If those discoveries and inventions had been mentioned in the Quran, we would have been deprived of that honor.
5- From the point of view of the capacity of the people that the Quran addresses:The Quran takes into consideration the understanding level of the majority of the people. In each era, more than three fourths of the people are common people. Even today, some scientific issues can be understood by experts of that branch of science only; the rest cannot understand it. When you speak in a way that the majority of the people understand you, it is clear that the ones at higher levels will understand you more easily.
Besides, if we consider that the Quran does not address only one single age but all ages until the Doomsday, we will understand the importance of the issue better.


If things that do not comply with the daily observations of people, their individual experiences and general information had been mentioned openly, it would have caused two important drawbacks:
1- It would have driven people who did not believe fully and who had hesitations away from the religion. Those who opposed the religion would have used it to increase their mockery. For instance, if the Quran had mentioned microbes and stated that there were millions of small living beings in one glass of water that we drink, that information would have confused believers who lived before the invention of the microscope and caused them to have superstitions; it would have led the unbelievers to total rejection and mockery.
2- It would have drawn the attraction of people to unnecessary and useless things. If the Prophet had informed people through the Quran and his personal knowledge that there would be televisions and that people would watch what happened in other parts of the world instantly in the rooms that they lived, or if he had said that there would be electricity and that a whole city would be transformed to brightness from darkness by pushing a button, people would have been engaged in unnecessary discussions and talks among them and would have forgotten about their main duties. However, it is not the purpose of the religion. The real purpose of the religion is to arrange the duties of people toward Allah and their relationships with other people, and to teach them the ways of material and spiritual progress.
No matter from which point of view you deal with it, the mind does not regard it appropriate for science and technology to be mentioned clearly in the Quran.
Due to many wisdoms and reasons the most important ones of which we have mentioned above, sciences are not mentioned openly in the Quran; however, it is observed that they are implied or indicated in various ways. We will try to explain the issue by giving some examples.


A – Information related to cosmos:The Quran often gives information about the universe. The creation, order, harmony of the universe, the night and the day following each other, the rain, clouds, plants, trees and animals are mentioned. The information about them represents the laws regarding things so truthfully that the science that developed in every field only confirmed it; science never stated anything opposite to it.
For instance, in many verses of the Quran, it is repeatedly stated that plants were created in pairs (twos) (ar-Rahman 52, ar-Ra'd 3, Taha 131); in a verse, it is stated that things that we do not know were also created in pairs (Yasin 36); in another verse, attention is drawn to the fact that everything was created in pairs (adh-Dhariyat 49). Thus, it informs us about the existence of pairs from good-bad, ugly-beautiful, hot-cold, night-day, belief-unbelief, to positive and negative particles that constitute the structure of atom and the two opposite poles of the electricity. This information may seem simple for today but it is a miracle for the era 14 centuries ago.
The verse of nur (light) is an interesting example that we need to mention here. It can be said that it indicates electricity, one of the most important discoveries of humanity: "Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the Glass as it were a brilliant star: lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the East nor of the West, whose Oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things." (an-Nur, 35).
We understand that the simile, "as it were a brilliant star" indicates light bulb, "whose Oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it" indicates electricity and we also understand from the simile, "a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the East nor of the West" that the oil mentioned in the verse is not the oil produced from plants that grow based on the climate.
The loftiness and profundity in the style of the verse and especially the similes are appropriate for deducing other meanings.
B – Historical Events:The Quran sheds light on the future by describing some events in the past and points to some technology that humanity can obtain through science. Some of those events are miracles granted to prophets. Some of them are not regarded as miracles. Let us give a few examples:
1- In the chapter of al-Fil, it is stated that the Ethiopian army, whose aim was to demolish the Kaaba, was defeated by stones of baked clay called “sijjil”. It is indicated there that particles that are small enough for a bird to carry can be used to defeat an army if they are thrown down from the air. Various weapons thrown down from airplanes, cannon balls and missile bullets that are exploded at a certain height applied this principle.


2- In the Battle of Badr, a miracle granted to the Prophet (pbuh) informs us about something further than the one mentioned above. As it is explained in the books of tafsir and siyar (life of the Prophet), a handful of soil and sand that the Prophet picked up from the ground and threw at the enemies hit the eyes of the each enemy and caused their defeat. The verse narrates the event as follows: "It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust) it was not thy act, but Allah's" (al-Anfal, 17).
It is a highly advanced technology for a bullet to follow the target and to catch it today. However, it is limited with big targets in the air. The verse indicates that it is possible to develop bullets that can find and catch small targets like human beings and that they can even be thrown by hand. Neutron bomb can be an example of it.


C - Miracles:The miracles mentioned in the Quran indicate some technology that human beings can attain. The miracle of Miraj (Ascension) is one of them. The Prophet (pbuh) ascended to the sky with his spirit and body through the miracle of Miraj (al-Isra 1; an-Najm 7-18). According to the complementary explanations that were reported together with hadiths, the descent to the sky was made by a vehicle resembling a horse and travelling very fast called Buraq. The description about the speed of Buraq is very remarkable. It is stated in the hadith that Buraq steps its front foot on the ultimate point that its eye reaches.
That miracle indicates that the way to the sky is open to human beings along with drawing attention to the magnitude of the speed to be reached in the vast space.
The miracle related to the rod of Hazrat Musa (Moses) is related to today. One of the miracles of the rod that does wonderful things is the gushing forth of water out of the ground when Moses hits the ground with it. The water comes out from 12 springs (al-Baqara 60). Today, extracting water through deep artesian wells even in deserts has become something ordinary. Besides, not only water but also petrol and natural gas gush forth out of the ground. Since 12 springs are mentioned in the verse, it is possible to make other bounties gush forth in the future.


As a matter of fact, the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) states the following in a hadith: "The door of sustenance is open from the highest point of the sky to the depths of the ground. Allah gives sustenance to all of His slaves based on their efforts."
A miracle that is granted to Hazrat Ibrahim (Abraham) informs us about fireproof materials. As it is known, Hazrat Ibrahim, who did not give in to the community that worshipped idols, broke the idols that his community worshipped into pieces. He was given the punishment of being thrown into the fire due to his act. When Hazrat Ibrahim was thrown into the fire, he took refuge in Allah. God Almighty gave the fire this order: "O Fire! Be thou cool, and (a means of)) safety for Abraham." (al-Anbiya, 69) The fire did not burn Hazrat Ibrahim.
This miracle informs us about the existence of a waterproof material. As a matter of fact, human beings discovered amianthus; then, they developed it and produced materials that protect spaceships from being burned due to entering atmosphere very fast and getting hot very easily.

In conclusion, we can say this: There are many verses about information and technology to be reached in the future in the Quran. Those verses were not sent down only to tell us about the miracles of the prophets or the stories of the prophets. There are some scientific truths in various verses of the Quran, from the verses that give information about the creation of man and the universe to the verses that encourage man to contemplate and draw lessons. Experts of each branch of science will be able to discover the ones related to their branches in the course of time.

قذائف الحق! هاشم في حوار مع مسيحيين الجزء الأول
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPSbdutvJD0


قذائف الحق! هاشم في حوار مع مسيحيين الجزء الثاني
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lXhD2uCwco

قذائف الحق! هاشم في حوار مع مسيحيين الجزء الثالث
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALrY1Pwr8Bk

- - - Updated - - -

Surah al-Rahman

55:31
Nous allons bientôt entreprendre votre jugement, ô vous les deux charges [hommes et djinns].
Surah al-Rahman, Verses 33 - 55


Surah al-Rahman - Verses 33-34

يَا مَعْشَرَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنسِ إِنِ اسْتَطَعْتُمْ أن تَنفُذُوا مِنْ أقْطَارِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأرْضِ فَانفُذُوا لَآ تَنفُذُونَ إِلاّ بِسُلْطَانٍ
فَبِأيِّ آلَآء رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ
33. O assembly of jinn and men! If you have power to pass beyond1 the zones of the heavens and the earth, then pass beyond [them]. But you shall never be able to pass them, except with extraordinary power.
34. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both [jinn and men] deny?
The Arabic word ma‘shar is cognate with ‘ashr ("ten") and ‘ashira ("relatives"). The word is attested thrice in the Holy Qur’an in all the instances of which jinn precedes men.
The reason lying behind such precedence may be the points that jinn exceed men in terms of quantity, jinn were created before men;
("And We created jinn before [men]"),
and jinn are more prepared to soar in the heavens. Nevertheless, men precede jinn in some other instances. The Arabic word sultan denotes material strength and might leading some to conquer others. It is also applied to academic authority and solid arguments leading to academic and intellectual authority.
It is worthy of note that the blessed Verse in question may also allude to the world, astronautics, transcending the atmosphere of the earth, and penetration into the heavens, since the depth of the earth, the farthest points in space, and celestial bodies may be conquered by jinn. The clause in astata‘tum in lieu of law astata‘tum connotes contingence.
The clause illa bi-sulttan-in alludes to the fact that it is possible to penetrate into the heavens and the earth, particularly to the effect that in the Glorious Qur’an, the Arabic word sultan connotes academic authority.
Taking into account, the contextual meanings of the preceding and the following blessed Verses, it may also make a reference to Resurrection and the impossibility of evading Divine Tribunal.
Thus, the blessed Verse in question is saying:
"O jinn and men! If you truly intend to evade Divine Recompense and Chastisement, make an attempt to transcend the boundaries of the heavens and the earth and thereby leave the bounds of His Omnipotence. However, you may never embark upon the same, unless through Divine Might and such Might is not at your disposal. You may never evade the Tribunal of Divine Justice. Wherever you go, you shall be Divine Realm. Wherever you stand, it shall be His Sovereignty.”
Such weak creatures may never transcend the boundaries of Divine Sovereignty.
Likewise, Imam ‘Ali (as) in the exhilarating invocation of Kumayl says:
"No one may evade Your Omnipotence and Sovereignty."
The blessed Verse 34 is again asking the rhetorical question:
"Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both [jinn and men] deny?"
Surah al-Rahman - Verses 35-36

يُرْسَلُ عَلَيْكُمَا شُوَاظٌ مِّن نَّارٍ وَنُحَاسٌ فَلَآ تَنتَصِرَانِ
فَبِأيِّ آلَآء رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ
35. There shall be sent against you both, smokeless flames of fire and molten brass, and you shall not be able to defend yourselves.
36. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both [jinn and men] deny?
To further emphasize the inability of jinn and men to evade Divine Justice, the blessed Verse 35 is saying:
"There shall be sent against you both, smokeless flames of fire and molten brass, and you shall not be able to defend yourselves."
Then, they may not seek succor from anyone, since angels shall surround you on the one hand and burning flames of fire and dark and suffocating smoke surrounds the Plain of Judgment on the other. There shall remain no way out. The Arabic word shuwad designates great and awe-inspiring flames of fire.
The Arabic word nuhas denotes the smoky and red flames of fire that turn copper in color. It is a source of surprise that Divine Tribunal is surrounded by Divine agents, suffocating smoke, and blazing fire and there shall remain no way but to attend the Tribunal and submit to the Verdict.
The blessed Verse 36 further asks:
"Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both [jinn and men] deny?"
Surah al-Rahman - Verse 37-38

فَإِذَا انشَقَّتِ السَّمَاء فَكَانَتْ وَرْدَةً كَالدِّهَانِ
فَبِأيِّ آلَآء رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ
37. Then when the heaven is rent asunder, and it becomes red like molten oil [you shall not bear the horrible incidents].
38. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both [jinn and men] deny?
Resuming the account of the preceding blessed Verses regarding some of the incidents that shall occur on the Day of Resurrection, the blessed Verse 37 treat of further depictions of the scenes of Resurrection and the manner of attending to records and Divine Recompense.
Thus the blessed Verse 37 is saying that when the heaven is rent asunder and turns rosy like molten oil, horrible incidents shall occur such that no one may bear them. All the blessed Qur’anic Verses concerning Resurrection clearly reflect that the present order of the world shall be disturbed on that Day and very horrible incidents shall occur throughout the world.
Stars, planets, the earth shall undergo alterations and incidents shall occur which may not be imagined by us. Instances of such incidents include tearing asunder of celestial bodies turning rosy like molten oil. The word warda designates flower and most of flowers are red in color. The word dihan is employed in the sense of molten oil which is often different in color.
The blessed Verse 38 reiterates the rhetorical question:
"Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both [jinn and men] deny?"
Surah al-Rahman - Verses 39-40

فَيَوْمَئِذٍ لَآ يُسْألُ عَن ذَنبِهِ إِنسٌ وَلَآ جَانٌّ
فَبِأيِّ آلَآء رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ
39. Therefore, on that Day no question shall be asked of men or jinn as to their sins.
40. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both [jinn and men] deny?
Following an account of the formative occurrences of Resurrection, the blessed Verse 39 treats of the state of sinners on that Day saying that jinn and men shall not be questioned concerning their sins, since everything shall be evident on the Day of Emergence (yawm al-buruz) and faces reflect everything.
It may be falsely imagined that the blessed Verse in question is inconsistent with those emphasizing the questioning of servants on the Day of Resurrection, e.g.
"But Stop them, indeed they are to be questioned,"2
and
“Therefore, by your Lord, We shall certainly question all of them for all they used to do,"3;
however, the point is that the Day of Resurrection shall be a very long Day and man has to pass different paths and stations and spend some time at each place. According to a number of traditions, such stopping places shall be fifty in number. Questions shall not be asked at some of these places, since faces reveal inward secrets.
At some of these places, mouths shall be sealed and bodily organs bear witness to deeds and words;
("This Day We shall seal up their mouths and their hands shall speak unto Us and their legs shall bear witness to what they used to earn,"4).
There are still other places where questions shall be precisely asked5.
Further, men shall come up pleading:
("The Day when everyone shall come up pleading for himself and everyone shall be paid in full for what he did and they shall not be dealt with unfairly,")6.
In short, each and every scene has its own conditions and each scene shall be more horrible than another.
The blessed Verse 40 asks the rhetorical question once more:
"Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both [jinn and men] deny?"
Surah al-Rahman - Verses 41-42

يُعْرَفُ الْمُجْرِمُونَ بِسِيمَاهُمْ فَيُؤْخَذُ بِالنَّوَاصِي وَالْأقْدَامِ
فَبِأيِّ آلَآء رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ
41. The sinners shall be known by their marks and they will be seized by their forelocks and their feet [and shall be cast into Hell].
42. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both [jinn and men] deny?
Those who committed all kinds of sins and disobeyed Divine Command by all their beings from their hair to their feet shall be seized on the Day of Resurrection by their hair and feet to be cast into Hellfire.
The Arabic word sima is employed in the sense of:
"mark."
The Arabic word nawasi is the plural form of nasiya designating:
"forelock."
On that Day, questions shall not be asked since sinners shall be recognized by their marks and faces. Some shall have smiling and brilliant faces which reflect their faith and righteous good deeds and some other shall have dark, ugly, and sullen faces, reflecting their faithlessness and evil deeds.
The blessed Verse further adds that then they shall be seized by their forelocks and their feet and they shall be cast into Hell. The scene is quite agonizing and awe-inspiring.
The blessed Verse 42 is a warning against Resurrection and a Favor bestowed upon everyone:
"Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both [jinn and men] deny?"
Surah al-Rahman - Verses 43-45

هَذِهِ جَهَنَّمُ الَّتِي يُكَذِّبُ بِهَا الْمُجْرِمُونَ
يَطُوفُونَ بَيْنَهَا وَبَيْنَ حَمِيمٍ آنٍ
فَبِأيِّ آلَآء رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ
43. This is the Hell which the sinners denied.
44. They shall move between Hellfire and the fierce boiling water.
45. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both [jinn and men] deny?
Denial of Paradise, Hell, and Resurrection lead man to join the people of Hell.
The antecedent of the Arabic demonstrative pronoun hadhihi:
("this")
in the blessed Verse 43 is the preceding blessed Verse. It is as if angels or guards of Hell say unto sinners that this is Hell against which Prophets warned you but you denied and belied it out of arrogance, vanity, enmity, and ignorance. The blessed Verse 44 further depicts Hell and its excruciating torments saying that sinners move between Hell and boiling water.
The Arabic word hamim denotes:
"boiling water"
and the Arabic word an employed herein designates the utmost degree of heat. Thus, they burn and thirst and ask for water on the one hand and boiling water will given unto them or boiling water will be splashed upon them on the other and it will be an excruciating chastisement. The blessed Verse 45 is a serious and awakening warning and a Divine Favor:
"Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both [jinn and men] deny?"
Surah al-Rahman - Verses 46-47

وَلِمَنْ خَافَ مَقَامَ رَبِّهِ جَنَّتَانِ
فَبِأيِّ آلَآء رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ
46. But for him who fears the standing before his Lord, there shall be two Gardens.
47. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both [jinn and men] deny?
Fearing standing before God Almighty prevents man from committing sins and will lead to Paradise, as it is reflected elsewhere in the Glorious Qur’an7:
"But as for him who feared standing before his Lord and restrained himself from concupiscent desires, indeed, Paradise shall be his abode."8
The blessed Verse 46 is also saying that for he who fears standing before his Lord, there shall be two Gardens in Paradise. Fearing standing before Lord means that one who knows God Almighty through His Greatness, Glory, and Lordship, such knowledge causes fear in him and there shall be two Gardens in Paradise for him.
It may also mean the fear of Resurrection and its stations and standing before His Threshold for records of deeds and Divine Supervision and Constant Care for all mankind. It is worthy of note that fear is supposed to spring from knowing Divine Lordship.
Imam Sadiq (as) said:
"He who believes that God sees him and hears whatever he says, such belief restrains him from committing evil deeds. Such person fears standing before God Almighty and restrains himself from concupiscent desires.”9
It is narrated that the Noble Prophet (S) said unto Imam ‘Ali (as):
"Several things lead to deliverance one of which is fear of God inwardly and outwardly."10
Fear of standing before God Almighty in this world shall lead to security from all fears in the Hereafter, as it is reflected in other Qur’anic Verses, e.g.
"There is no doubt that indeed believers who love Allah no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve,"11.
In short, fear of God Almighty leads to submission to the Truth and doing righteous good deeds. Thus, there is no other condition besides fear of God Almighty. For one who fears standing before his Lord, there shall be two Gardens in Paradise.
The blessed Verse 47 repeats the rhetorical question:
"Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both [jinn and men] deny?"

What are Jinn ? - Dr. Zakir Naik - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZB7YVe0Dd4

Reply

Ümit
07-29-2019, 08:07 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Sorry to hear about the cancer , I hope it’s gone and it never returns[emoji106]

Are you saying the spine we have is the best god could do ,even though billions of people suffer from lower back pain , because it is the way it is ?

I agree there are some people who are evil .

But
If a person is evil for watching someone starve to death , why isn’t god.
He has watched billions starve, he could have helped them with a simple thought, yet he choose not to .... that is evil.
You are still not getting it. This world we live in, is not meant to be a perfect habitat where everyone lives in harmony and without pain, agony, sufforing etc.
This world is just a test. nothing more. we are here only temporarily. God tests us in this world with wealth, with poverty, with health and sickness, with pain, troubles, hunger, thirst, lies and truthfullness, with anything possible...so this everything is needed and are therefore present in this world. The Afterlife is perfect, no pain, no worries, no sickness, no hunger...no sufforing of any kind...if you are a believer of course.

Yes he could save everyone from suffering in an instant...but that is the whole point of testing...that has nothing to do with evilness. billions of people die of starvation...in the afterlife you will be asked: "you were aware of billions of people have been starving to death...what have YOU done to prevent that?" So it is a test for the people who are starving how they cope with the situation...but it is at the same time your test what efforts you take against that.

Originally Posted by chalks75

Do you think watching people starve to death is a good thing ?

God sent the scriptures ?
That hasn’t been much help to the millions that died before he sent them, the millions that will die since he sent them ... it’s not a great system he has going.
The millions of people before the scripture have also received a scripture or at least instructions before this scripture. Islaam is not just 1400 years old. God was always there and always provided us with the correct scriptures.

What exactly do you mean with "it’s not a great system he has going"? What system are you referring to?
The purpose of this world...again...is not to have a great system where everybody abides by the given rules...It is to test ones free will. To give you instructions and rules and see if you live accordingly, if you obey the rules or not...and its a great system to test that.
Originally Posted by chalks75

As for death , death is a natural part of life .
I imagine being dead , was like how I was before I was born.
I won’t know I’m dead , I will be aware of nothing

I can imagine the fear death holds for people , so it’s not surprising they would create and cling to a comfort blanket.
There are only two things we can be sure of “ death and taxes”

Your belief that you will go to paradise , is it any less ( I hesitate to use the word ) silly , than believing you will be reincarnated, you will go to Valhalla , that you will go to the sky to be with your ancestors.

Death is what makes life a precious and rare gift ....! If we live for eternity , then life is meaningless.
yes, it is less "silly". Because, reincarnation has no place in Islaam. Quraan speaks about Heaven and Hell in the afterlife, not about reincarnation, valhalla, no sky with ancestors or whatever. The quraan is true. in a different thread I already reacted today why the Quraan is true, and why you cannot just ignore that.

So yess, reincarnation is silly...heaven and hell not.
Reply

chalks75
07-29-2019, 08:25 AM
Originally Posted by Ümit
You are still not getting it. This world we live in, is not meant to be a perfect habitat where everyone lives in harmony and without pain, agony, sufforing etc.
This world is just a test. nothing more. we are here only temporarily. God tests us in this world with wealth, with poverty, with health and sickness, with pain, troubles, hunger, thirst, lies and truthfullness, with anything possible...so this everything is needed and are therefore present in this world. The Afterlife is perfect, no pain, no worries, no sickness, no hunger...no sufforing of any kind...if you are a believer of course.

Yes he could save everyone from suffering in an instant...but that is the whole point of testing...that has nothing to do with evilness. billions of people die of starvation...in the afterlife you will be asked: "you were aware of billions of people have been starving to death...what have YOU done to prevent that?" So it is a test for the people who are starving how they cope with the situation...but it is at the same time your test what efforts you take against that.


The millions of people before the scripture have also received a scripture or at least instructions before this scripture. Islaam is not just 1400 years old. God was always there and always provided us with the correct scriptures.

What exactly do you mean with "it’s not a great system he has going"? What system are you referring to?
The purpose of this world...again...is not to have a great system where everybody abides by the given rules...It is to test ones free will. To give you instructions and rules and see if you live accordingly, if you obey the rules or not...and its a great system to test that.

yes, it is less "silly". Because, reincarnation has no place in Islaam. Quraan speaks about Heaven and Hell in the afterlife, not about reincarnation, valhalla, no sky with ancestors or whatever. The quraan is true. in a different thread I already reacted today why the Quraan is true, and why you cannot just ignore that.

So yess, reincarnation is silly...heaven and hell not.
So god is causing people to suffer needlessly
That’s evil .

Why would god need to test us , if he knows everything?
What’s the point of the test , if he knows the result before it happens.

Islam did not exist , 2000 years ago , 5000 years ago, or 10,000 years ago.

The problem of evil, is one of the biggest problems religions face , that’s why your religion teaches you that “ this is a test”, it’s the only way they could explain “ why bad things happen to good people”

It always amazes me how someone can think
Reincarnation is silly
But
Going to heave is not

What about the old American Indian belief that you go to the sky to be with your ancestors ?

Life after death , this is born out of mans fear of death, fear of the unknown,

I think
When you die , you die , you get 80-90 years, if your lucky , then that’s it , you return to non- existence
Reply

Ümit
07-29-2019, 09:33 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
So god is causing people to suffer needlessly
That’s evil .

Why would god need to test us , if he knows everything?
What’s the point of the test , if he knows the result before it happens.
Exactly, why would God test us if he is alknowing right?

Except, this test is not for God to determine which one is good and which one is bad. It is a test for us.

If we did not come to this world first, and God just created you and then threw you into hell...you would complain..."Why God did you just threw me into hell, what did I do wrong?"
God will explain to you that He knows you better than you know yourself, but you would not accept that answer.
By coming into this world first, you make yourself a witness of your own decisions and actions. that is what this test is about...not for God.

Originally Posted by chalks75
Islam did not exist , 2000 years ago , 5000 years ago, or 10,000 years ago.
Yes it did...Adam as got the first revelations and taught them to his own children and grandchildren, then after generations the message got lost and people added changes and stuff and a new man-made religion was born...So God sent another Prophet to us to provide us with the right sciptures....every prophet came with the same purpose to earth sent by this one God, Solomon, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, every single one of them were sent by the same God to guide us back to the truth, everytime, mankind lost the message, changed it and created a new man-made religion. So Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and all other religions are to some extent based on the truth, but still everyone of them is man-made religions. Only Islaam is the truth.
Originally Posted by chalks75
The problem of evil, is one of the biggest problems religions face , that’s why your religion teaches you that “ this is a test”, it’s the only way they could explain “ why bad things happen to good people”

It always amazes me how someone can think
Reincarnation is silly
But
Going to heave is not

What about the old American Indian belief that you go to the sky to be with your ancestors ?

Life after death , this is born out of mans fear of death, fear of the unknown,

I think
When you die , you die , you get 80-90 years, if your lucky , then that’s it , you return to non- existence
I have already explained to you why reincarnation is silly and heaven not.
about ancestors, Islaam teaches us that in the afterlife you can be with your ancestors if you desire...but not that those ancestors are kinda watching over the world how there great great grand children on Earth are doing or something.
Reply

chalks75
07-29-2019, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by Ümit
Exactly, why would God test us if he is alknowing right?

Except, this test is not for God to determine which one is good and which one is bad. It is a test for us.

If we did not come to this world first, and God just created you and then threw you into hell...you would complain..."Why God did you just threw me into hell, what did I do wrong?"
God will explain to you that He knows you better than you know yourself, but you would not accept that answer.
By coming into this world first, you make yourself a witness of your own decisions and actions. that is what this test is about...not for God.


Yes it did...Adam as got the first revelations and taught them to his own children and grandchildren, then after generations the message got lost and people added changes and stuff and a new man-made religion was born...So God sent another Prophet to us to provide us with the right sciptures....every prophet came with the same purpose to earth sent by this one God, Solomon, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, every single one of them were sent by the same God to guide us back to the truth, everytime, mankind lost the message, changed it and created a new man-made religion. So Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and all other religions are to some extent based on the truth, but still everyone of them is man-made religions. Only Islaam is the truth.

I have already explained to you why reincarnation is silly and heaven not.
about ancestors, Islaam teaches us that in the afterlife you can be with your ancestors if you desire...but not that those ancestors are kinda watching over the world how there great great grand children on Earth are doing or something.
The story of Adam is a mythological tale.
It does not represent reality.
Are there any other stories with talking animals you treat as factual ?

If god knows the future , and he is infallible
Then it does not matter what you do.

If god knows the day you are born that you will end up in hell , .... then there is nothing you can do to change that.

If you could , then god would have been wrong , therefore not a god .


You did not explain how reincarnation is silly
You just said “ because it’s not part of Islam “

That’s not an explanation , it’s a baseless assertion.

Islam is just your religious beliefs , no matter how strongly you believe.
It’s just stuff you believe is true
Reply

chalks75
07-29-2019, 12:39 PM
I think I’ve heard enough.

I’ve been talking with people of other faiths for years ,
I came on here hoping to hear something different.

The arguments are the exact same , the appeals to authority the same , the claims of revealed knowledge , the same.
The way of thinking , the same
The false confidence , the same.

I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions , I appreciate it , hopefully I didn’t offend you or anyone reading .
That was never my intention.

I wasn’t convinced gods are real , I’m still not .

I think gods are a concept we created , to try and explain the universe and our place in it,
Gods exist in the minds of believers , like Santa exists in the minds of children.

Good luck for the future
All the best .
Reply

Junon
07-29-2019, 01:07 PM
What's the matter? Getting bored of preaching? Poor you! Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Do tell your clones that infect this forum from time to time not to bother.

After all Internet atheists are predictable, you've met one you've met them all.
Reply

Ümit
07-29-2019, 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
The story of Adam is a mythological tale.
It does not represent reality.
No, it is history. it does represent reality
Originally Posted by chalks75
Are there any other stories with talking animals you treat as factual ?
Yes, prophet Solomon as If I am correct could speak to animals.
Originally Posted by chalks75
If god knows the future , and he is infallible
Then it does not matter what you do.

If god knows the day you are born that you will end up in hell , .... then there is nothing you can do to change that.

If you could , then god would have been wrong , therefore not a god .
That are two things you are mixing up with each other.
God created us all with free will. we decide ourselves which way we choose. The fact that God already knows our destiny does not change our responsibility to choose for the good over evil.

an example:

Person X and Y are struggling with a complicated task and they cannot do that without any extern help.
Person X sees two individuals sitting nearby, one in red and one in green and suggests to ask them for help.
Person Y looks at them and says "the one in green will help us but the one in red wont"
Person x "how do you know?"
Person Y "just try it and you will see"
Person X askes them both and indeed the one in green helps them but the one in red rejects.

Now, the both individuals both have totally acted on their own decicions to help or not.
and the fact that person Y knew them and therefore could tell before hand which one of them would offer any help did not influence them in their decision making.

So the one in red has no right to say "I did not help because person Y already knew I wasn'T going to help"

That only sounds silly.

similar with God. He knows what decisions we will make...but we are the one who are responsible for those decisions. we need that in order to have free will.
Originally Posted by chalks75

You did not explain how reincarnation is silly
You just said “ because it’s not part of Islam “

That’s not an explanation , it’s a baseless assertion.

Islam is just your religious beliefs , no matter how strongly you believe.
It’s just stuff you believe is true
It is not a part of Islaam, therefore man-made.
It is not a baseless assertion because I gave you enough arguments why we believe in Islaam, and why the Quraan represents the truth.
Reply

M.I.A.
07-29-2019, 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
I am a secular humanist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

Morality is different all around the globe , somethings we agree on , done we don’t.
I think the important thing is to examine what you believe to be moral , and not just blindly follow , we must always be vigilant about what we are being told , and who is telling us, and why.

***********************

Thoughts are just thoughts , not particularly good or bad , it’s only when you act upon them does it become a moral issue.

In saying that , obsessively thinking positive or negative thoughts can have an impact on your mental health.
..
..

Thoughts are just thoughts , not particularly good or bad , it’s only when you act upon them does it become a moral issue.
Is that another facet of free will?

Have you watched The Boys yet? It's a netflix original (amazon prime original, sorry).. pretty good, although cliched in its attempt to avoid being contrived and cliched.. worth a watch.

I'm pretty much out of continuing this circular train of thought.
Reply

yasoooo
08-19-2019, 02:49 PM
What is your purpose in life? What is the rationale behind our life? Why do we live in this life? These questions frequently intrigue people who try to find accurate answers.

People provide different answers to these questions. Some people believe the purpose of life is to accumulate wealth. But one may wonder: What is the purpose of life after one has collected colossal amounts of money? What then? What will the purpose be once money is gathered? If the purpose of life is to gain money, there will be no purpose after becoming wealthy. And in fact, here lies the problem of some disbelievers or misbelievers at some stage of their life, when collecting money is the target of their life. When they have collected the money they dreamt of, their life loses its purpose. They suffer from the panic of nothingness and they live in tension and restlessness.

Can Wealth Be an Aim?

We often hear of a millionaire committing suicide, sometimes, not the millionaire himself but his wife, son, or daughter. The question that poses itself is: Can wealth bring happiness to one’s life? In most cases the answer is NO. Is the purpose of collecting wealth a standing purpose? As we know, the five-year old child does not look for wealth: a toy for him is equal to a million dollars. The eighteen-year old adolescent does not dream of wealth because he is busy with more important things. The ninety-year old man does not care about money; he is worried more about his health. This proves that wealth cannot be a standing purpose in all the stages of the individual's life.

Wealth can do little to bring happiness to a disbeliever, because he/she is not sure about his fate. A disbeliever does not know the purpose of life. And if he has a purpose, this purpose is doomed to be temporary or self destructive.

What is the use of wealth to a disbeliever if he feels scared of the end and skeptical of everything. A disbeliever may gain a lot of money, but will surely lose himself.

Worshipping Allah as an Aim

On the contrary, faith in Allah gives the believer the purpose of life that he needs. In Islam, the purpose of life is to worship Allah. The term "Worship" covers all acts of obedience to Allah.

The Islamic purpose of life is a standing purpose. The true Muslim sticks to this purpose throughout all the stages of his life, whether he is a child, adolescent, adult, or an old man.

Worshipping Allah makes life purposeful and meaningful, especially within the framework of Islam. According to Islam this worldly life is just a short stage of our life. Then there is the other life. The boundary between the first and second life is the death stage, which is a transitory stage to the second life. The type of life in the second stage a person deserves depends on his deeds in the first life. At the end of the death stage comes the day of judgment. On this day, Allah rewards or punishes people according to their deeds in the first life.

The First Life as an Examination

So, Islam looks at the first life as an examination of man. The death stage is similar to a rest period after the test, i. e. after the first life. The Day of Judgment is similar to the day of announcing the results of the examinees. The second life is the time when each examinee enjoys or suffers from the outcome of his behavior during the test period.

In Islam, the line of life is clear, simple, and logical: the first life, death, the Day of Judgment, and then the second life. With this clear line of life, the Muslim has a clear purpose in life. The Muslim knows he is created by Allah. Muslims know they are going to spend some years in this first life, during which they have to obey God, because God will question them and hold them responsible for their public or private deeds, because Allah knows about all the deeds of all people. The Muslim knows that his deeds in the first life will determine the type of second life they will live in. The Muslim knows that this first life is a very short one, one hundred years, more or less, whereas the second life is an eternal one.

The Eternity of the Second Life

The concept of the eternity of the second life has a tremendous effect on a Muslims during their first life, because Muslims believe that their first life determines the shape of their second life. In addition, this determines the shape of their second life and this determination will be through the Judgment of Allah, the All just and Almighty.

With this belief in the second life and the Day of Judgment, the Muslim's life becomes purposeful and meaningful. Moreover, the Muslim's standing purpose is to go to Paradise in the second life.

In other words, the Muslim's permanent purpose is to obey Allah, to submit to Allah, to carry out His orders, and to keep in continues contact with Him through prayers (five times a day), through fasting (one month a year), through charity (as often as possible), and through pilgrimage (once in one's life).

The Need for a Permanent Purpose

Disbelievers have purposes in their lives such as collecting money and property, indulging in sex, eating, and dancing. But all these purposes are transient and passing ones. All these purposes come and go, go up and down. Money comes and goes. Health comes and goes. Sexual activities cannot continue forever. All these lusts for money, food and sex cannot answer the individual's questions: so what? Then What?

However, Islam saves Muslims from the trouble of asking the question, because Islam makes it clear, from the very beginning, that the permanent purpose of the Muslim in this life is to obey Allah in order to go to Paradise in the second life.

We should know that the only way for our salvation in this life and in the hereafter is to know our Lord who created us, believe in Him, and worship Him alone.

We should also know our Prophet whom Allah had sent to all mankind, believe in Him and follow Him. We should, know the religion of truth which our Lord has commanded us to believe in, and practice it


The purpose of life in this world in Islam and Christianity - ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvC8bffJaxc
Reply

yasoooo
08-29-2019, 06:37 AM
The calendar year of Islam begins not with the birthday of our prophet (peace be on him), not from the time that the revelation came to him (Bethat) nor from the time of his ascension to heaven, but with the migration (Hijra) from an undesirable environment into a desirable place to fulfill Allah's command. It was migration from a plot that was set by the leaders of the Quraysh who were plotting to kill prophet Muhammad, and to destroy the truth that today is being conveyed to mankind everywhere against tyranny and injustice. Their purpose was to destroy the foundation of the Islamic state, the Sunnah of the tradition of the prophet, and to prevent the revelation being delivered by Allah's messenger to mankind.


The Islamic calendar is reckoned from the time of migration (Hijra) of Prophet Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him) from Mecca to Madina. The Prophet's decision to migrate from Mecca came after several years of inhuman treatment of the faithful by the powerful tribes who were united despite all their feuds to stop the spread of Islam.

Prophet Mohammad's decision to leave Mecca coincided with the infidel's plan to assassinate him. In 622 AD, the Quresh tribesmen held a meeting and decided that a band of young men, one from each tribe, should assassinate Prophet Mohammad collectively so that their responsibility for the murder could not be placed on any particular tribe.

On the eventful night, the Prophet asked his cousin Ali Ben Abutalib to take his place in bed to make the Meccans think that he was asleep. The Prophet himself slipped out unobserved alongwith his loyal follower Abu Bakr (who was chosen as the first C aliph after the death of the prophet). They secretly made their way to a cave named Thawr, not far from Mecca and lay in hiding there for a day or two until Abu Bakr's son reported that the search for him had been given up. Then the two set out from Madina on camel back. They reached Quba, on the edge of the Madina oasis, on 12th Rabiul Awwal. With Mohammad's arrival in Quba a new phase of his career and glory of Islam started.

This migration has a special significance in the history of Islam. It ended the Meccan period of humiliation and torture and began the era of success. His own people to whom he preached Islam for 13 years neglected the Prophet of Islam. But he was cordially received in Madina as an honored chief.

In Madina his power enhanced day by day. Here he was not only the religious leader but took the role of a politician and statesman too. Prophet Mohammad expired ten years after his migration to Madina but only in one decade he changed the course of human history.

In view of this special significance of the Prophet's migration the consultative body advised the Second Islamic Caliph, Omar ben Khattab, to start the Islamic year from the date of migration of the Prophet from Mecca to Madina.

According to early Moslem scholars, Abu Musa Al Shari drew attention of Omar to an improperly dated debenture or IOU which was payable in the month of Shaban but it was not clear which Shaban was actually meant, the present one or the coming one. Omar called the dignitaries for consultation who made several suggestions to begin the Islamic calendar.

Ali (who later became the fourth caliph) suggested the Hijra as the beginning of the Islamic year with Moharram as its first month. Consequently, Caliph Omar in 21 A.H. or 641 A.D introduced the Islamic calendar in its present form.

QURANIC GUIDANCE

The guidance about the Islamic calendar is taken from the following verses from the Holy Quran: (In the name of GOD most gracious and most merciful)

"Lo the number of the months with God is twelve months." IX:36.

"They ask thee, of new moons. Say: They are fixed seasons for mankind and for the pilgrimage." II:189.

"He it is who appointed the sun a splendor and the moon a light, and measured for her stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the reckoning." X:5

The Islamic Calendar of 12 Lunar Months is determined by observation of the new moon with no effort by intercalation (addition) or other means to synchronize the Lunar year with the Solar year.

Seerah of Prophet Muhammed 27 - The Hijrah - Emigration to Madinah - Yasir Qadhi | March 2012

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utKZzIWZ0I4
Reply

yasoooo
09-06-2019, 05:58 AM
the water cycle in nature. This is a topic which is well known today. Consequently, the verses in the Qur’an that refer to the water cycle seem to express ideas that are now totally self-evident. But if we consider the ideas prevalent at that time, they appear to be based more on myth and philosophical speculation than on observed fact, even though useful practical knowledge on soil irrigation was current at that period.

Let us examine, for example, the following verse in chapter az-Zumar:
“Have you not seen that Allah sent rain down from the sky and caused it to penetrate the ground and come forth as springs, then He caused crops of different colors to grow…” Qur’an,39:21

Such notions seem quite natural to us today, but we should not forget that, not so long ago, they were not prevalent. It was not until the sixteenth century, with Bernard Palissy, that we gained the first coherent description of the water cycle. Prior to this, people believed that the waters of the oceans, under the effect of winds, were thrust towards the interior of the continents.

They then returned to the oceans via the great abyss, which, since Plato’s time was called the Tartarus .In the seventeenth century, great thinkers such as Descartes still believed in this myth. Even in the nineteenth century there were still those who believed in Aristotle’s theory that water was condensed in cool mountain caverns and formed underground lakes that fed

springs. Today, we know that it is the infiltration of rain water into the ground that is responsible for this. If one compares the facts of modern hydrology with the data found in numerous verses of the Qur’an on this subject, one cannot fail to notice the remarkable degree of agreement between the two.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StPobH5ODTw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJXk6eG6Y-A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiLBGHwX_4c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fluiDCYCVhw
Reply

yasoooo
09-11-2019, 11:04 AM
لمن تصلي؟ هاشم في حوار مع مسيحي الجزء الأول
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jM7QJaCI0U

لمن تصلي؟ هاشم في حوار مع مسيحي الجزء الثانى
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIPxB97vudU
لمن تصلي؟ هاشم في حوار مع مسيحي الجزء الثالث
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUJ5_TOgsyY
لمن تصلي؟ هاشم في حوار مع مسيحي الجزء االاخير
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuY4v8K7efA
Reply

yasoooo
09-17-2019, 06:36 AM
botany at the time of Muhammad (S) was not advanced enough in any country for scientists to know that plants have both male and female parts.

but
in the Qur’an
“(God is the One who) sent down rain from the sky and with it brought forth a variety of plants in pairs.” Qur’an, 20:53
Today we know that fruit comes from plants that have sexual characteristics even when they come from unfertilized flowers, like bananas. In the chapter ar-Ra‘d we read the following:
“… and of all fruits (God) placed (on the earth) two pairs.” Qur’an, 13:3



In the field of physiology, there is one verse which appears extremely significant to me. One thousand years before the discovery of the blood circulatory system, and roughly thirteen centuries before it was determined that the internal organs were nourished by the process of digestive , a verse in the Qur’an described the source of the constituents of milk, in conformity with scientific facts.

To understand this verse, it must first be known that chemical reactions occur between food and enzymes in the mouth, the stomach and the intestines releasing nutrients in molecular form which are then absorbed into the circulatory system through countless microscopic projections of the intestinal wall called villi. Blood in the circulatory system then transports the nutrients to all the organs of the body, among which are the milk-producing mammary glands.


This biological process must be basically understood, if we are to understand a verse in the Qur’an which has for many centuries given rise to commentaries that were totally incomprehensible.

Today it is not difficult to see why! This verse is taken from the chapter an-Nahl:
“Verily, in cattle there is a lesson for yon. I give you drink from their insides, coming from a conjunction between the digested contents ( of the intestines ) and the blood, milk pure and pleasant for those who drink it.” Qur’an, 16:66
The constituents of milk are secreted by the mammary glands which are nourished by the product of food digestion brought to them by the bloodstream.

The initial event which sets the whole process in motion is the conjunction of the contents of the intestine and blood at the level of the intestinal wall itself.
This very precise concept is the result of the discoveries made in the chemistry and physiology of the digestive system over one thousand years after the time of Prophet Muhammad (S).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Uy6lzQb7U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NzXVXSvqhw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtA4HXfcIXA
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