Analysis of Ibn Khaldun’s Objections to the Narrations about al-Mahdi

[azc]

http://icraa.org/the-critique-of-cri...bout-al-mahdi/

[CuriousonTruth]

Can anyone here tell me whether Ibn Khaldun said that if any hadith that contradicts the logic of the Quran, then that hadith is forged. Is it true?

[Ümit]

Can anyone here tell me whether Ibn Khaldun said that if any hadith that contradicts the logic of the Quran, then that hadith is forged. Is it true?

I do not know whether he really said that, but the statement must be true yes.
We believe that the Quraan is the absolute word of Allah and therefore always true...but hadeeths are human narrations and therefore not always true...so if a hadeeth contradicts the Quraan...then the hadeeth is false...

OR...

It only SEEMS like a contradiction, but if you look closely, they both describe different situations or something else is going on at that very moment.

[CuriousonTruth]

I do not know whether he really said that, but the statement must be true yes.
We believe that the Quraan is the absolute word of Allah and therefore always true...but hadeeths are human narrations and therefore not always true...so if a hadeeth contradicts the Quraan...then the hadeeth is false...

OR...

It only SEEMS like a contradiction, but if you look closely, they both describe different situations or something else is going on at that very moment.

I can tell you that's not how it aalways works in Sunni Islam or atleast in the methodology of some sunni scholars.

Many sunni scholars or salafi scholars if you prefer the latter terminology, believe that hadiths abrogate Quran.

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[Ümit]

I can tell you that's not how it aalways works in Sunni Islam or atleast in the methodology of some sunni scholars.

Many sunni scholars or salafi scholars if you prefer the latter terminology, believe that hadiths abrogate Quran.

Really? Then I would like to know what their arguments would be to question the word of Allah over a hadeeth...If you could provide that...that would be great.

[CuriousonTruth]

Really? Then I would like to know what their arguments would be to question the word of Allah over a hadeeth...If you could provide that...that would be great.

Well it's called Sunni Islam for a reason. As one of the scholars (forgot his name) said, Quran needs the Sunnah more than the Sunnah needing the Quran. This is why overwhelming majority of fiqh is based on hadiths not Quran.

https://seekersguidance.org/answers/...ate-the-quran/

Sunna Abrogation of Qur’an
There were two main opinions on this matter:
(1) The Hanafis, Imam Malik, and most theologians maintained that the Qur’an can be abrogated by a Sunna that is established by multiple-chain transmission [mutawatir] or by a Sunna that is well-known [mash’hura], “well-known” according to the Hanafis meaning a prophetic report that is accepted and implemented by the vast majority of jurists such that it is akin to multiple-chain transmission.
Imam Karkhi narrates that Imam Abu Yusuf [one of the two companions of Abu Hanifa] said, “It is valid for the Qur’an to be abrogated by the likes of the report of wiping over leather socks [khuffs], which is well-known [mash’hur].” Incidentally, this is the example you brought up in your question.
(2) Imam Shafi’i, most scholars of his school, and [according to one narration] Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal maintained that the Qur’an is not abrogated by the Sunna. Imam Shafi’i stated this in his famous “Epistle” [al-Risala]. There was some disagreement, however, among Shafi’i scholars as to whether the Imam meant that it is not possible or simply that it never occurred.

It surprises me to see Imam Hanbal reject sunna abrogation because I learnt about sunnah abrogation of Quran from Salafists, and generally they are hanbali.

But then again Salafis specialize in not sticking to one madhab and choosing what they feel is appropriate from time to time. But I remember coming across this phenomenon of hadith abrogating Quran in a Jihadi thread, where people were using hadith to abrogate a Quranic verse.

[Ümit]

Well it's called Sunni Islam for a reason. As one of the scholars (forgot his name) said, Quran needs the Sunnah more than the Sunnah needing the Quran. This is why overwhelming majority of fiqh is based on hadiths not Quran.

https://seekersguidance.org/answers/...ate-the-quran/

Sunna Abrogation of Qur’an
There were two main opinions on this matter:
(1) The Hanafis, Imam Malik, and most theologians maintained that the Qur’an can be abrogated by a Sunna that is established by multiple-chain transmission [mutawatir] or by a Sunna that is well-known [mash’hura], “well-known” according to the Hanafis meaning a prophetic report that is accepted and implemented by the vast majority of jurists such that it is akin to multiple-chain transmission.
Imam Karkhi narrates that Imam Abu Yusuf [one of the two companions of Abu Hanifa] said, “It is valid for the Qur’an to be abrogated by the likes of the report of wiping over leather socks [khuffs], which is well-known [mash’hur].” Incidentally, this is the example you brought up in your question.
(2) Imam Shafi’i, most scholars of his school, and [according to one narration] Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal maintained that the Qur’an is not abrogated by the Sunna. Imam Shafi’i stated this in his famous “Epistle” [al-Risala]. There was some disagreement, however, among Shafi’i scholars as to whether the Imam meant that it is not possible or simply that it never occurred.

It surprises me to see Imam Hanbal reject sunna abrogation because I learnt about sunnah abrogation of Quran from Salafists, and generally they are hanbali.

But then again Salafis specialize in not sticking to one madhab and choosing what they feel is appropriate from time to time. But I remember coming across this phenomenon of hadith abrogating Quran in a Jihadi thread, where people were using hadith to abrogate a Quranic verse.

this goes way beyond my own knowledge...so I cannot say anything usefull about this.
but may I then assume that you are a salafi? or at least not a sunni muslim?

so if I understood this correctly...you are taking this opportunity to accuse the sunni muslims for being misguided and you want to discuss why salafis are right and sunnis are wrong...is this correct?

can any sunni muslim shed a light on this subject please?
or maybe we should start a new thread about this...

[CuriousonTruth]

this goes way beyond my own knowledge...so I cannot say anything usefull about this.
but may I then assume that you are a salafi? or at least not a sunni muslim?

so if I understood this correctly...you are taking this opportunity to accuse the sunni muslims for being misguided and you want to discuss why salafis are right and sunnis are wrong...is this correct?

can any sunni muslim shed a light on this subject please?
or maybe we should start a new thread about this...

nope it's the opposite. But I wouldn't say I'm a 100% orthodox Sunni, I have my reservations.

You see it's like learning about Bohr's atomic after being learned in Rutherford's one. Same with what I've studied about Sunni Islam. It was something different in my mind when I first started learning, it's something so very different now.

But as you said that's a different topic. But I was looking for Ibn Khaldun's opinion for a reason related to this.