My Conversation with a Muslim and a White Nationalist

[fschmidt]

[anatolian]

Race based nationalisms are meaningless to me. If you dont share the same mentality just because you share the same skin colour means nothing.

[CuriousonTruth]

Write your points down here. No one is going to waste 50 minutes listening to the issue of white nationalists. Then we can discuss how valid those points are.

Actually if you are going to mention anything related to humanism, then no need to write. Thanks for your time.

[fschmidt]

Write your points down here. No one is going to waste 50 minutes listening to the issue of white nationalists. Then we can discuss how valid those points are.

Actually if you are going to mention anything related to humanism, then no need to write. Thanks for your time.

I already did:

https://www.islamicboard.com/world-a...ml#post3010046

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[CuriousonTruth]

I already did:

https://www.islamicboard.com/world-a...ml#post3010046

So nothing new. Disappointing but okay.

[fschmidt]

So nothing new. Disappointing but okay.

Nothing new for the closed-minded. For the open minded, there is a conversation between a Muslim who knows Islam much better than most members of this forum, with a White Nationalist. So one can get both perspectives directly.

[Ahmed.]

White nationalism is a desease as it's racism. And this paranoia about whites soon disappearing is a baseless propaganda promulgated by neo-nazis to forward their agenda. How can they disappear if they continue to breed?

[Zafran]

White nationalism is a disaster - worshiping ones own tribe and not The God of Humanity and the Universe is anti Islamic.

[CuriousonTruth]

So tell me what is you opinion on the comments here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvZlh4XuY8w

(NOTE: issue here is not question of immigration but the hate Europeans have for other races)

Here are some examples, all by Europeans:

Captain Picard2 months ago

Its called taking out the trash.;)

41
REPLY
View 7 replies

johnwilsonqld2 months ago

Germany and Sweeden - you need to take notes...

Paul :1 month ago

So proud of Israel. People learn from Myanmar and China ������

Y00 T00ber3 days ago

I wish America would kick all Africans and people of African descent out of the country! Back to the jungle where they belong.

Randy Cowart6 days ago

They're constantly witnessing the savagery here in the U.S. and abroad and want "none of it" ����������������� ��������

johnwilsonqld2 months ago

Germany and Sweeden - you need to take notes...

(The following comment is a speacial kind of stupid)

greg poulin2 days ago (edited)
This is because Israel rejects the New World Order . They don't let outside Force's dictate policys for their Country. And as far as the U.N. what they say or think is irrelevant... They U.N IS EVIL



This is because Israel rejects the New World Order . They don't let outside Force's dictate policys for their Country. And as far as the U.N. what they say or think is irrelevant... They U.N IS EVIL
bad Good4 hours ago

Yeah they are illegal they get deported. Should just execute this scumbags.Then ofcourse comes the mandatory blame Islam for everything comments even though the Africans here are Christians:




The moore22 hours ago

Most dugusting n dengerous religion is Islam...Remove n kill Muslims from every part of world.. otherwise they will finish u,,Islam is evils of dis world

Jason Voorhees23 hours ago

Nasty dirty ***** nobody wants

Jamie C. YW23 hours agoNobody wants n*****with IQ below 65

Night Prowler23 hours agoGet these n***** out

musicalnights1 day agothe problem is not colour... but is the f****** islam...

[Ahmed.]

@fschmidt

This is what white nationalism does.... it breeds extremists who attack mosques and that in turn makes their Muslim counterparts attack churches :Emoji29:

So the result is just doom and gloom all around!

It's time to be tough on both these scumbag groups and exterminate them from society!

Where's Dr who when you need him? :Emoji48:

[fschmidt]

There are intelligent Muslims in my local mosque but apparently there are no intelligent Muslims on the internet.

[Physicist]

It would help if you would cite out main ideas of the conversation.

[anatolian]

There are intelligent Muslims in my local mosque but apparently there are no intelligent Muslims on the internet.

What makes you say that? I am a muslim on internet. Am I dump?

[fschmidt]

What makes you say that? I am a muslim on internet. Am I dump?

Show anything in this forum as intelligent as the views expressed in my video. I don't think you can.

Why is there no intelligent life on forums? Because mods hate free speech and intelligent people don't waste their time where free speech isn't permitted.

[xboxisdead]

Show anything in this forum as intelligent as the views expressed in my video. I don't think you can.

Why is there no intelligent life on forums? Because mods hate free speech and intelligent people don't waste their time where free speech isn't permitted.

Wouldn't the moderators allowing you to post this very post that puts the moderators down being you the smart one among us and posting smart posts indicates what you just said is not true?

[CuriousonTruth]

Show anything in this forum as intelligent as the views expressed in my video. I don't think you can.

Why is there no intelligent life on forums? Because mods hate free speech and intelligent people don't waste their time where free speech isn't permitted.

Yes obviously anyone who isn't amiable to your agenda is either an idiot or a savage.

One day, and the day will come because no empire rules forever. But one day that arrogance of your people will weigh heavily on you, when the rest of the people of the world will have had enough.

[fschmidt]

Yes obviously anyone who isn't amiable to your agenda is either an idiot or a savage.

One day, and the day will come because no empire rules forever. But one day that arrogance of your people will weigh heavily on you, when the rest of the people of the world will have had enough.

One day there will be a reformation in Islam and they will reject all the moronic innovations that Muslim "scholars" introduced including censorship (Al-Farabi) and all current forms of Islam will be replaced by something sane, and then Muslims will start using their brains again as they did in early Islam.

[CuriousonTruth]

One day there will be a reformation in Islam and they will reject all the moronic innovations that Muslim "scholars" introduced including censorship (Al-Farabi) and all current forms of Islam will be replaced by something sane, and then Muslims will start using their brains again as they did in early Islam.

You think? There have been deviant groups since the beginning of islam. All disappeared over time. The new, pro-european, libetard "muslims" will also go extinct eventually.

"As they did in Early Islam."

Yes one of the first things muslims did during early islam is to kick out europeans from Syria, Egypt, North Africa, East Anatolia. Then Ummayads continued the war and captured Spain and southern France, Sicily, etc.

The war against Europe slowed down during Abbasid caliphate, then picked up again by Seljuks, Crusades and then the Ottoman empire.

[Physicist]

One day there will be a reformation in Islam and they will reject all the moronic innovations that Muslim "scholars" introduced including censorship (Al-Farabi) and all current forms of Islam will be replaced by something sane, and then Muslims will start using their brains again as they did in early Islam.

Not replaced, rather clarified.
It's impossible to set true Islamic Khalifate by force, since (There is no compulsion in religion (Al-Baqara 256)).
To make everyone voluntarily embrace Islam, it should be brought in their language (4:14)

[fschmidt]

Not replaced, rather clarified.
It's impossible to set true Islamic Khalifate by force, since (There is no compulsion in religion (Al-Baqara 256)).
To make everyone voluntarily embrace Islam, it should be brought in their language (4:14)

A version of Islam free of the influence of Plato would be so successful and so wealthy that almost everyone would want to join it. Even white nationalists would convert to such a religion.

[xboxisdead]

A version of Islam free of the influence of Plato would be so successful and so wealthy that almost everyone would want to join it. Even white nationalists would convert to such a religion.

Islam is perfect!! There is no such thing as a "VERSION" of Islam! Allah (Subhanhu Wa Talaa) have perfected our religion..Islam. The second you put word like "version" of Islam then that is not Islam. That is another false religion and we would not want anything to do with a new "VERSION" of Islam. Islam is not going to cow-down to people's self interest to get them to join...it is the people themselves that have to bow down and submit to Allah and not the other way around. If "white" nationalist refuse to join Islam...THEY ARE NOT HARMING Allah in anyway..the lose belongs to them.

[Physicist]

A version of Islam free of the influence of Plato would be so successful and so wealthy that almost everyone would want to join it. Even white nationalists would convert to such a religion.

And what is this Plato's influence in essense? Excuse my ignorance, I know only "Platonic love", which seems as a pure worship of a human and therefore anti-islamic.

"White nationalist" - kind of a person who worships the race and the state, similar to football funclubs - worshipping some "We". Pure racist (or ethnicist?) at least has some solid ground, considering ethnicity as an extended family.
But nationalists and football funs are simply infantiles who need to grow up.

[fschmidt]

And what is this Plato's influence in essense? Excuse my ignorance, I know only "Platonic love", which seems as a pure worship of a human and therefore anti-islamic.

"White nationalist" - kind of a person who worships the race and the state, similar to football funclubs - worshipping some "We". Pure racist (or ethnicist?) at least has some solid ground, considering ethnicity as an extended family.
But nationalists and football funs are simply infantiles who need to grow up.

Plato introduced the idea of absolute truth. Before Plato belief simply meant to trust something which is a relative concept (you can trust it). Without Plato, all these stupid arguments about what is true disappear and instead one only asks what can be trusted. A bad belief is just untrustworthy and not worth arguing against unless it harms others. With this view, you don't waste your time arguing against "infantile" beliefs, you just ignore them.

Based on the idea of trustworthiness, today's Islam is a complete failure. Nothing that modern Islam produces is trustworthy - not government, not communities, and not most people. In effect, this is God's judgement against modern Islam. Sunni Islam refuses to innovate because it has absorbed Plato and only accepts revelation as truth. This is the cause of its failure. If one focuses on trustworthiness, then one naturally uses inductive reasoning to form new beliefs. This makes innovation sound and based on God's judgements on Earth. And this allows progress in religion, in particular the ability to respond to new threats like the evils of modern culture.

[Physicist]

Such absolutism much older than Plato. He didn't invent it, rather formalized. Let's call this worshipping for a convenience. If one worshipping something he doesn't question it, assuming absolute and perfect be it in love or in fear (like animal toward fire).
Humans used to worship many things, Sun, Weather, etc much before Islam.

The very first concept in Islam:
La ilaha illAllah : no one and nothing to be worshipped but God.
In effect it cancels worshipping from anything in the Universe: you feel temptation to worship something, nope you can't, this is just a creation of God, to him all worship belongs.

[fschmidt]

Such absolutism much older than Plato. He didn't invent it, rather formalized. Let's call this worshipping for a convenience. If one worshipping something he doesn't question it, assuming absolute and perfect be it in love or in fear (like animal toward fire).
Humans used to worship many things, Sun, Weather, etc much before Islam.

The very first concept in Islam:
La ilaha illAllah : no one and nothing to be worshipped but God.
In effect it cancels worshipping from anything in the Universe: you feel temptation to worship something, nope you can't, this is just a creation of God, to him all worship belongs.

None of this requires absolutism. One can have perfect faith in something without it being absolute. In fact everyone must have faith in whatever their primary assumptions (axioms) of reasoning are. For me, this is inductive reasoning. But I don't consider this absolute and I see no problem with other people who may not share this belief.

[Physicist]

None of this requires absolutism. One can have perfect faith in something without it being absolute. In fact everyone must have faith in whatever their primary assumptions (axioms) of reasoning are. For me, this is inductive reasoning. But I don't consider this absolute and I see no problem with other people who may not share this belief.

May be those are just different absolutes.
Animalistic ones - feeling based, like absolute fear of fire. Absolute truth is logic based.
I don't see problem of Allah posessing Absolute Truth.
But perhaps you mean about Al-Quran being considered as an Absolute Truth.

[fschmidt]

May be those are just different absolutes.
Animalistic ones - feeling based, like absolute fear of fire. Absolute truth is logic based.
I don't see problem of Allah posessing Absolute Truth.
But perhaps you mean about Al-Quran being considered as an Absolute Truth.

Absolute truth is a concept, not a feeling. I have read the Quran and I find it to be an excellent book even though I am not Muslim. This leaves me with the question, what is wrong with Islam today? And I feel that I can trace all errors in modern Islam back to Plato. Muhammad himself seemed like an excellent person, so I can't hold him at fault either. I think it was the contamination by Greek thought that ruined Islam.

This thread is a practical example of what I mean. How many people listened to the video? It seems like none just because they disagree with racism. I don't believe in racism either but I have no problem talking to a racist because I have nothing against beliefs that differ from my own. The closed-mindedness of Muslims is a product of Plato, not of the Quran or of Muhammad. Plato advocated intolerance and the censorship of ideas he thought were false. Neither the Quran nor Muhammad ever took this position.

[Physicist]

Alhamdulillah brother fwchmidt, I didn't learn as much as you before embracing Islam.
For me it was more the question "Is Islam is the way?", "Will Ummah evolve to adequately respond to the volatile reality?"

Intelligent and honest people embracing Islam will turn like chain reaction. Come on, join the party.

[Ahmed.]

White nationalist attacks jews!:

Synagogue shooter's apparent manifesto accused Jews of using immigration to destroy white race, the same motive as the Pittsburgh synagogue shooter

https://www.thedailybeast.com/san-di...stody?ref=home

.

[fschmidt]

Alhamdulillah brother fwchmidt, I didn't learn as much as you before embracing Islam.
For me it was more the question "Is Islam is the way?", "Will Ummah evolve to adequately respond to the volatile reality?"

Intelligent and honest people embracing Islam will turn like chain reaction. Come on, join the party.

I follow the Old Testament which is very similar to the Quran but fits me better. "Is Islam is the way?" Islam is a trustworthy way, as is the Old Testament. "Will Ummah evolve to adequately respond to the volatile reality?" Not in the near future. But Muslims should work on forming small communities of people who can respond adequately.

White nationalist attacks jews!

While I don't support violence, at least this time they attacked the right target. Talmudic Judaism is a plague on humanity.

[Ahmed.]

I follow the Old Testament which is very similar to the Quran but fits me better. "Is Islam is the way?" Islam is a trustworthy way, as is the Old Testament. "Will Ummah evolve to adequately respond to the volatile reality?" Not in the near future. But Muslims should work on forming small communities of people who can respond adequately.


While I don't support violence, at least this time they attacked the right target. Talmudic Judaism is a plague on humanity.

Lol am I hearing right???

You supporting terrorism? Because that's what it amounts to! :Emoji48:

look at the reason why he targeted jews? It's the same immigration and 'white genocide' greviances of theirs you are apparently supporting

The jews (your people?) Are their number 1 enemy. That's why they target synagogues and government buildings like in Oklahoma bombing and Norway attacks, because they believe the western governments are the ZOG (zionist occupational government)

[CuriousonTruth]

......

Such views are risky for this forum, you should delete this comment.

[fschmidt]

Lol am I hearing right???

You supporting terrorism? Because that's what it amounts to!

look at the reason why he targeted jews? It's the same immigration and 'white genocide' greviances of theirs you are apparently supporting

The jews (your people?) Are their number 1 enemy. That's why they target synagogues and government buildings like in Oklahoma bombing and Norway attacks, because they believe the western governments are the ZOG (zionist occupational government)

I said that I don't support violence, so obviously I don't support terrorism.

I don't support the white nationalist position, but I don't oppose it either. I think people should be free to do what they want as long as they don't harm others. Listen to my video to understand.

How are the jews my people? Are you talking racially or religiously? If racially, that makes you a racist. If religiously, then you don't understand Talmudic Judaism.

[xboxisdead]

I said that I don't support violence, so obviously I don't support terrorism.

I don't support the white nationalist position, but I don't oppose it either. I think people should be free to do what they want as long as they don't harm others. Listen to my video to understand.

How are the jews my people? Are you talking racially or religiously? If racially, that makes you a racist. If religiously, then you don't understand Talmudic Judaism.

Did you say you supported violence?:o

[Ahmed.]

I said that I don't support violence, so obviously I don't support terrorism.

I don't support the white nationalist position, but I don't oppose it either. I think people should be free to do what they want as long as they don't harm others. Listen to my video to understand.

How are the jews my people? Are you talking racially or religiously? If racially, that makes you a racist. If religiously, then you don't understand Talmudic Judaism.

But that's what ultimately precipitates their attacks; their speech of hate and racist greviances boils over into violent attacks

I said jews are your people because you mentioned once you are a Jew

[fschmidt]

But that's what ultimately precipitates their attacks; their speech of hate and racist greviances boils over into violent attacks

Wrong. It is because of censorship, supported by people like members of this forum, that the only way one can now express oneself is through violence. The cause of violence is censorship. Without censorship, one could reason with these people.

I said jews are your people because you mentioned once you are a Jew

I am also human. Does that make you my people? No.

I am racially Jewish but I don't define my people by race. My people is basically whoever accepts God and rejects Plato. (And there don't seem to be many such people.)

[Zafran]

A version of Islam free of the influence of Plato would be so successful and so wealthy that almost everyone would want to join it. Even white nationalists would convert to such a religion.

Plato doesn't have influence on Islam.

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Plato introduced the idea of absolute truth. Before Plato belief simply meant to trust something which is a relative concept (you can trust it). Without Plato, all these stupid arguments about what is true disappear and instead one only asks what can be trusted. A bad belief is just untrustworthy and not worth arguing against unless it harms others. With this view, you don't waste your time arguing against "infantile" beliefs, you just ignore them

No - the only absolute in Islam is God - everything else is contingent on God's Power, mercy, will, Knowledge, wisdom etc. before plato there were pre Socratics and they had all sorts of beliefs from many Gods. Muslims developed all sorts of Ideas and Plato had the least influence - Only al farabi comes to mind. Aristotle influenced people like Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushed but the mainstream Islamic thought which Goes through the Atharis, Asharis and Maturidi who developed there own theology based on the Reason, The Quran and sunnah.

Furthermore Muslims didn't Just accept Greek philosophy many criticized it like Ibn Taymiyya and the Hanblites - others like the Asharis (Baqalini, Al Ghazzali, Fakur din Al Razi) and the Maturidi (Imam Nasafi and most of the Hanafis) developed there own theology based on greek logic but rejected and dismantled anything they saw as contradicting revelation and sound Reason.

If one focuses on trustworthiness, then one naturally uses inductive reasoning to form new beliefs

Inductive reasoning has major flaw that have nothing to do with plato - you need read the problem of induction be David Hume or the "black swan problem - Induction is useful and Humans use it because its practical but it needs a deductive bases or axiom (usually logic based on reason) - In Islam we can trust our senses because we establish a necessary Being, that has the will and power (God) to sustain time and space - without that bases induction is probabilistic at worst or just a habit/custom.

White supremacist are losers - I have listened to some of the conversation and its just him whining. The Muslim also has bad English which doesn't help.

[Physicist]

"Will Ummah evolve to adequately respond to the volatile reality?" Not in the near future. But Muslims should work on forming small communities of people who can respond adequately.
...
I am racially Jewish but I don't define my people by race. My people is basically whoever accepts God and rejects Plato. (And there don't seem to be many such people.)

That concept of "My people" seems I am missing in my life strategy.

It's only nice to say, that we are all brothers and should not differentiate on each other.

In reality there is always segregation of some sort. Like members of the family being closer to each other due to natural reasons.

In small oil-reach nations, people may defeat poverty among citizens but become very unwelcoming for outsiders to keep that status.

Jews made similar distinction possible based on race&religion, which allows it to survive cross-borderly. Religion to keep value system and race to prevent dissolving by new converts which would diminish group advantage.

However, there are always various groups, those of aristocracy, professional guilds, etc.
In fact, to succeed in life, one has to find "his people", otherwise he has to survive on the roadside of the life.

[Al_Ghazali]

White nationalism is a desease as it's racism. And this paranoia about whites soon disappearing is a baseless propaganda promulgated by neo-nazis to forward their agenda. How can they disappear if they continue to breed?

How is it racism? It isn't any different than Palestinians not wanting their own country flooded by foreign Jews. It's not that the Arabs hated Jews. No, it was because they didn't want their land and society to be subject to cultural uprooting by a foreign demographic.

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White nationalism is a disaster - worshiping ones own tribe and not The God of Humanity and the Universe is anti Islamic.

How is it "worshipping ones own tribe?"

There is nothing wrong with a tribe not wanting their cultural and political landscape to be replaced by something completely forign. Paris looks like Pakistan these days. There is nothing racist in rejecting something like that.

[Abz2000]

How is it racism? It isn't any different than Palestinians not wanting their own country flooded by foreign Jews. It's not that the Arabs hated Jews. No, it was because they didn't want their land and society to be subject to cultural uprooting by a foreign demographic.

It is different because Allah :swt: doesn't distinguish based on skin colour, but upon heedfulness to His just guidance, and the qawm a person chooses to live amongst. A Muslim from the tribe of Banee Israeel would be welcomed as a brother - whereas a malicious and Godless invader would be rightly considered an enemy of the people and an enemy of God..


- - - Updated - - -

How is it "worshipping ones own tribe?"

There is nothing wrong with a tribe not wanting their cultural and political landscape to be replaced by something completely forign.

Again, the term "foreign" did not apply amongst the Muslims of Al Madeenah, and people who raised narrow minded and baseless slogans of jaahiliyyah were considered as followers of ibless who was arrogant regarding his status amongst creation due to the fact that he considered himself to be superior -not by Allah's measure, but by his own measure of racism - a false assumption of merit which Allah :swt: rejected and threw him out of the boardroom due to his arrogant insubordination.

Paris looks like Pakistan these days.

Dunno if you mean that in a good way or a bad way, or whether you are attempting to ascribe negative connotations without substance.

There is nothing racist in rejecting something like that.

Well, the sky is usually blue during the day above both pieces of mud, dunno why someone would reject it - unless they are simply playing games with people's minds by attempting to conjure illusions within a void.

[CuriousonTruth]

How is it racism? It isn't any different than Palestinians not wanting their own country flooded by foreign Jews. It's not that the Arabs hated Jews. No, it was because they didn't want their land and society to be subject to cultural uprooting by a foreign demographic.

- - - Updated - - -



How is it "worshipping ones own tribe?"

There is nothing wrong with a tribe not wanting their cultural and political landscape to be replaced by something completely forign. Paris looks like Pakistan these days. There is nothing racist in rejecting something like that.

For the first part I don't think you understand how patriotism and white nationalism works.

For the second part I have to ask what is your race. I'm sure you're not African or East Asian. You're either Arab (Arabs love Europeans) or a European.

[Al_Ghazali]

It is different because Allah :swt: doesn't distinguish based on skin colour, but upon heedfulness to His just guidance, and the qawm a person chooses to live amongst. A Muslim from the tribe of Banee Israeel would be welcomed as a brother - whereas a malicious and Godless invader would be rightly considered an enemy of the people and an enemy of God..

So it's all about perception then?

Again, the term "foreign" did not apply amongst the Muslims of Al Madeenah, and people who raised narrow minded and baseless slogans of jaahiliyyah were considered as followers of ibless who was arrogant regarding his status amongst creation due to the fact that he considered himself to be superior -not by Allah's measure, but by his own measure of racism - a false assumption of merit which Allah :swt: rejected and threw him out of the boardroom due to his arrogant insubordination.

White Europeans aren't rejecting masses from the East because they think they are "better" than them. Some may adhere to the notion, but the main argument is that they don't want their politcal-social-cultural construct replaced by one alien to it.

Your metaphor is problematic, because for the Muslims of Madinah, Oneness and the Reality of Allah was the modus operendi. They were not concerned with, for example, the Romans immigrating en masse, inadvertently attempting to uproot its social foundation and replace it with their own. A completely different scenario.

Dunno if you mean that in a good way or a bad way, or whether you are attempting to ascribe negative connotations without substance.

The point is that White nationalists want Europe to remain European. It has nothing to do with "I'm better than so and so" (again, even though some may accept that idea).

Well, the sky is usually blue during the day above both pieces of mud, dunno why someone would reject it - unless they are simply playing games with people's minds by attempting to conjure illusions within a void.

But the average man (especially the average white man) isn't attempting to see Oneess in all creation. You must have some empathy here and see it from their persepctive.

It's all arguing that since Allah is One and there is no good and evil (since He is above these concepts), this means that people can and should do as they please. This is nonsensical, because there are two levels to the matter, and you can't ignore either one.

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For the first part I don't think you understand how patriotism and white nationalism works.

For the second part I have to ask what is your race. I'm sure you're not African or East Asian. You're either Arab (Arabs love Europeans) or a European.

I am who I am. ;)

[CuriousonTruth]

I am who I am. ;)

Why are you repeating jesus quotes?

[Al_Ghazali]

Why are you repeating jesus quotes?

The more important question is why do you keep asking questions that are irrelevant to the subject matter?

[CuriousonTruth]

The more important question is why do you keep asking questions that are irrelevant to the subject matter?

The question I asked previously was very much relevant. What is your ethnicity? It would help me to allow understand the situation better.

[Al_Ghazali]

The question I asked previously was very much relevant. What is your ethnicity? It would help me to allow understand the situation better.

No, it wouldn't, because this is a debate forum where people form arguments to defend and advance their respective positions. Do I have to ask what ethnicity a person is on a Math forum, since Asians are skilled in the subject?

How ironic that the people who always cry "racism!" are themselves obsessed with race. I see no race, son.

[Silas]

I think there are a lot of good points made here

Let me point out by saying that "White Nationalism" really isn't a coherent thing--it isn't some unified ideological or political movement. It is nebulous and diffuse, and even among the people who travel in those waters, there is much disagreement. There are groups like Generation Identity in France who are French nationalists, skeptics of the EU, and who want to preserve French culture and language. I don't think there is anything particularly controversial about that. But then there are militant racists such as the NSM in the US, but they are tiny.

The common ideas that can be found among these groups, to some degree, include

1. A rejection of diversity as an ethos, and the desire to preserve cultural and ethnic identity within the nation. The idea that "diversity" is always a good thing has no basis in reality, and it is a position pushed by the political left. In the ME we see what the diverse ethnic environment in Iraq means: Arabs and Persians killing each other, with the Kurds joining in. Diverse areas of the US typically suffer from high crime, low social trust, and other issues. This doesn't mean diversity is always bad, but WNs are generally adverse to it.

2. A rejection of the idea that whites are guilty of all the evils plaguing mankind--an idea pushed by leftists, Jews, and others. WNs do not passively accept blame. Crimes such as slavery were committed by Africans, Arabs, and others, just as they were by whites. Slavery still exists in some parts of the world. Likewise, racism is not unique to white people: the Japanese are some of the most racist people out there (ask the Koreans).

3. An embrace of traditional family structures and values, which includes hierarchy and distinction between men and women. WNs do not support promiscuity, pornography, "polyamory", and the dissolution of marriage. They are critical of 2nd and 3rd wave feminism, generally dismissive of "gay rights", and denounce "transgenderism". I don't think any of this is particularly inconsistent with how many Muslims feel.

4. Criticism of Jews insofar as the Jewish people heavily promote Marxism, relativism, usury, and practice insular, clannish behavior. American Jews are viewed as having divided loyalties (to Israel), and as having vast economic and political influence over the US government and social institutions. As I have said before, a vast majority of the American public wants nothing to do with wars in the Middle-East, blanket military support of Israel, etc., but Jewish billionaires push us into these things. WNs "name the Jew", whether it is by pointing this out, or the fact that Jews run things like the adult film industry (which is basically human trafficking). Obviously, some of this is unfair, but much of it is accurate. The Jews hide behind cries of "antisemitism" when anyone criticizes them collectively, or individually.

WNs may be culturally bigoted, a bit narrow-minded at times, and prone to extremist rhetoric, but it is hard to classify them collectively.

There are some who hate Muslims and others who admire Muslims for their adherence to faith, family, and hierarchy.

[CuriousonTruth]

No, it wouldn't, because this is a debate forum where people form arguments to defend and advance their respective positions. Do I have to ask what ethnicity a person is on a Math forum, since Asians are skilled in the subject?

How ironic that the people who always cry "racism!" are themselves obsessed with race. I see no race, son.

In a maths forum, there wouldn't be a thread about White nationalism. And yes White nationalism is such a topic where your race is relevant (duh). If you are European, you can say it without being so shy. The discussion will end then. If you are not, then yes I do have certain questions and things to discuss related to the topic.

- - - Updated - - -

1. A rejection of diversity as an ethos, and the desire to preserve cultural and ethnic identity within the nation. The idea that "diversity" is always a good thing has no basis in reality, and it is a position pushed by the political left. In the ME we see what the diverse ethnic environment in Iraq means: Arabs and Persians killing each other, with the Kurds joining in. Diverse areas of the US typically suffer from high crime, low social trust, and other issues. This doesn't mean diversity is always bad, but WNs are generally adverse to it.

Yeah that's thanks to the lovely work by the British and French empire to amplify religious, ethnic and sectarian tensions. Turks, Arabs, Kurds, Iranians didn't have any ethnic conflicts for hundreds of years.

Also the main cause of the ethnic conflict - Nationalism was introduced by Europeans, something which is the cause of genocide, racism, tribalism, etc across the world today.

[Abz2000]

So it's all about perception then?

I simply dissolved a false matrix and clarified the facts as they are in the "perception" of the Creator and Sustainer of the heavens and of the earth, and i have no choice or option but to agree that the facts are how they should be.

White Europeans aren't rejecting masses from the East because they think they are "better" than them. Some may adhere to the notion, but the main argument is that they don't want their politcal-social-cultural construct replaced by one alien to it.

The political-social-cultural construct of falsehood, deceit, usury, injustice, infidelity, and satan worship is not one to be envied, and i'm afraid that The Creator has received too many millions of complaints from men, women, and children who have been murdered and starved by the actions of infidels with the above mentioned qualities - and He has taken a direct approach to warn before just desserts are administered.

Your metaphor is problematic, because for the Muslims of Madinah, Oneness and the Reality of Allah was the modus operendi. They were not concerned with, for example, the Romans immigrating en masse, inadvertently attempting to uproot its social foundation and replace it with their own. A completely different scenario.

Well, considering the fact that they were idolatrous pagans with no general sense of universal decency or morals before that, maybe a christian roman invasion would have been good for them (see Quran, chapter 30) if the Creator had not been gracious enough to send His final and universal messenger amongst them to bring them out from darkness to light by rehearsing to them the signs of Allah :swt: , purifying them from abomination, guiding them towards salvation, and saving them from hell.

The argument of "doing away with your most cherished institutions" was an emotionally manipulative argument made by Pharaoh in the past, and invalid considering the fact that any criminal mafia leadership can make such a claim not subject to criticism - the claim is only valid if something universally better can be presented and accomplished without injustice and dependence on robbery via invasions based on false pretexts, and manipulation of world markets via worthless fiat currency - they way the bankrupt secularist criminals jumped and robbed gaddafi of the gold which he had accumulated when he attempted to throw away their fiat currency and put precious metallic coin into the hands of his people is quite telling of the bankruptcy of such invalid arguments.


Ta Ha 20:63

قَالُوٓا۟ إِنْ هَٰذَٰنِ لَسَٰحِرَٰنِ يُرِيدَانِ أَن يُخْرِجَاكُم مِّنْ أَرْضِكُم بِسِحْرِهِمَا وَيَذْهَبَا بِطَرِيقَتِكُمُ ٱلْمُثْلَىٰ

They said: "These two are certainly (expert) magicians: their object is to drive you out from your land with their magic, and to do away with your most cherished institutions.

Ta Ha 20:64

فَأَجْمِعُوا۟ كَيْدَكُمْ ثُمَّ ٱئْتُوا۟ صَفًّاۚ وَقَدْ أَفْلَحَ ٱلْيَوْمَ مَنِ ٱسْتَعْلَىٰ

"Therefore concert your plan, and then assemble in (serried) ranks: He wins (all along) today who gains the upper hand."


Ta Ha 20:65

قَالُوا۟ يَٰمُوسَىٰٓ إِمَّآ أَن تُلْقِىَ وَإِمَّآ أَن نَّكُونَ أَوَّلَ مَنْ أَلْقَىٰ

They said: "O Moses! whether wilt thou that thou throw (first) or that we be the first to throw?"

Ta Ha 20:66

قَالَ بَلْ أَلْقُوا۟ۖ فَإِذَا حِبَالُهُمْ وَعِصِيُّهُمْ يُخَيَّلُ إِلَيْهِ مِن سِحْرِهِمْ أَنَّهَا تَسْعَىٰ

He said, "Nay, throw ye first!" Then behold their ropes and their rods-so it seemed to him on account of their magic - began to be in lively motion!

Ta Ha 20:67

فَأَوْجَسَ فِى نَفْسِهِۦ خِيفَةً مُّوسَىٰ

So Moses conceived in his mind a (sort of) fear.

Ta Ha 20:68

قُلْنَا لَا تَخَفْ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ ٱلْأَعْلَىٰ

We said: "Fear not! for thou hast indeed the upper hand:

Ta Ha 20:69

وَأَلْقِ مَا فِى يَمِينِكَ تَلْقَفْ مَا صَنَعُوٓا۟ۖ إِنَّمَا صَنَعُوا۟ كَيْدُ سَٰحِرٍۖ وَلَا يُفْلِحُ ٱلسَّاحِرُ حَيْثُ أَتَىٰ

"Throw that which is in thy right hand: Quickly will it swallow up that which they have faked what they have faked is but a magician's trick: and the magician thrives not, (no matter) where he goes."

The point is that White nationalists want Europe to remain European. It has nothing to do with "I'm better than so and so" (again, even though some may accept that idea).

Satanists who perform voodoo rituals and make human sacrifices also want Satanic temples to remain Satanic whilst they go on performing voodoo rituals and making human sacrifices, that argument doesn't hold water without substance -especially considering that they played the democracy card and now feel like losers in their own game.

But the average man (especially the average white man) isn't attempting to see Oneess in all creation. You must have some empathy here and see it from their persepctive.

Using baseless statistics such as "the average man" only shows attempted emotional manipulation of weak minded sheeple when considering the fact that the majority of people in the west are consumers of commercial secularist usury funded t.v whose performers are motivated primarily by money, and entice the people to follow the latest popular trend set by deceitful media companies in order to fit in with the crowd in the false matrix as they live out their lives like battery hens religiously working for the government as the usurers pull the rug from beneath their feet.

Anyways, my priority is not what the average man sees, but rather to make them see the justice which God guides humanity to - that's what distinguishes leaders from followers.

Al-An'am 6:116

وَإِن تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَن فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَن سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِۚ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلَّا ٱلظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا يَخْرُصُونَ

Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie.

get Quran App:https://goo.gl/w6rESk

It's all arguing that since Allah is One and there is no good and evil (since He is above these concepts), this means that people can and should do as they please. This is nonsensical, because there are two levels to the matter, and you can't ignore either one.

Study the Quran and hopefully you'll learn to discern a little better.

I am who I am. ;)

And God is Who God is, so use your brains and don't punch above your weight.



An-Nahl 16:3

خَلَقَ ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَٱلْأَرْضَ بِٱلْحَقِّۚ تَعَٰلَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

He has created the heavens and the earth for just ends: Far is He above having the partners they ascribe to Him!

get Quran App:https://goo.gl/w6rESk


An-Nahl 16:4

خَلَقَ ٱلْإِنسَٰنَ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ فَإِذَا هُوَ خَصِيمٌ مُّبِينٌ

He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer!

get Quran App:https://goo.gl/w6rESk

[Al_Ghazali]

In a maths forum, there wouldn't be a thread about White nationalism.

And? The point was that you think you can better "understand" my position if I told you my "race"- which is a concept I don't even identify with!

But surely if I adhered to the notion of race, I can better "understand" the race of my opponent on a Maths forum, since race does indeed affect particular areas of intelligence (if not all).

And yes White nationalism is such a topic where your race is relevant (duh).

The topic is inherently objective. It is conceptual. You want to make it personal for some reason....

[CuriousonTruth]

And? The point was that you think you can better "understand" my position if I told you my "race"- which is a concept I don't even identify with!

But surely if I adhered to the notion of race, I can better "understand" the race of my opponent on a Maths forum, since race does indeed affect particular areas of intelligence (if not all).

The topic is inherently objective. It is conceptual. You want to make it personal for some reason....

Yet you defend white nationalism. I feel like I am speaking to a very confused individual, which means you're not white. Because regardless of everything else, europeans are sure of themselves. So that probably means you're an Arab or North African.

In which, I suggest you look up "inferiority complex" and "self hate" and "Stockholm syndrome" because you seem to suffer from it.

[Silas]

In a maths forum, there wouldn't be a thread about White nationalism. And yes White nationalism is such a topic where your race is relevant (duh). If you are European, you can say it without being so shy. The discussion will end then. If you are not, then yes I do have certain questions and things to discuss related to the topic.

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Yeah that's thanks to the lovely work by the British and French empire to amplify religious, ethnic and sectarian tensions. Turks, Arabs, Kurds, Iranians didn't have any ethnic conflicts for hundreds of years.

Also the main cause of the ethnic conflict - Nationalism was introduced by Europeans, something which is the cause of genocide, racism, tribalism, etc across the world today.

Neither nationalism nor sectarian violence were "created" by "Europeans" --that is just complete nonsense.

Sectarian violence in the Middle East has been going on within the Islamic sphere since the 7th century, and the Shia Sunni split. Before that, Hebrews were killing the Caananites and others for both religious AND ethnic reasons.

Did European powers amplify or stoke the ethnic tensions and problems in the ME in the 20th century? Certainly, but these things existed long before that.

The Turks conquered and butchered the Greeks in the 15th century, oppressed the Arabs for hundreds of years, and genocided the Armenians in the 20th century--something you refuse to recognize. Those actions were done for ethnic, religious, and national reasons. It was Ottoman Nationalism.

[Al_Ghazali]

I simply dissolved a false matrix and clarified the facts as they are in the "perception" of the Creator and Sustainer of the heavens and of the earth, and i have no choice or option but to agree that that is how they should be.

Yeah, and the same line of reasoning was and is used by everybody else. Your method does nothing to bridge gaps between humanity, or help understand one another. It's basic "this is what I believe so there!" Sounds nice on paper but does nothing on the ground.

The political-social-cultural construct of falsehood, deceit, usury, injustice, infidelity, and satan worship is not one to be envied, and i'm afraid that The Creator has received too many millions of complaints from men, women, and children who have been murdered and starved by the actions of infidels with the above mentioned qualities - and He has taken a direct approach to warn before just desserts are administered.

Sure, and they say the same thing about Islam. How exactly is this "leadership?" It sounds like toddlers arguing "no, my moral and political bedrock is better than yours, nananananana." Pathetic.

Well, considering that they were idolatrous pagans with no general sense of universal decency or morals before that, maybe a christian roman invasion would have been good for them (see Quran, chapter 30) if the Creator had not been gracious enough to send His final and universal messenger amongst them to bring them out from darkness to light by rehearsing to them the signs of Allah :swt: , purifying them from abomination, guiding them towards salvation, and saving them from hell.

Way to miss the point completely.

The argument of "doing away with your most cherished institutions" was an emotionally manipulative argument made by Pharaoh in the past, and invalid considering the fact that any criminal mafia leadership can make such a claim not subject to criticism - the claim is only valid if something universally better can be presented and accomplished without injustice and dependence on robbery via invasions based on false pretexts, and manipulation of world markets via worthless fiat currency - they way the bankrupt secularist criminals jumped and robbed gaddafi of the gold which he had accumulated when he attempted to throw away their fiat currency and put precious metallic coin into the hands of his people is quite telling of the bankruptcy of such invalid arguments

.

What on Earth does the Pharaoh have to do with anything?! The Muslims are not immigrating to the West to prove the Oneness of Allah and His Lordship over creation. Moses went to Egypt to free the Jews and remind the Pharaoh of the Reality and Lordship of Allah. Stop trying to attach Quranic parables to modern circumstances. Two completely different situations.

Satanists who perform voodoo rituals and make human sacrifices also want Satanic temples to remain Satanic whilst they go on performing voodoo rituals and making human sacrifices, that argument doesn't hold water without substance -especially considering that they played the democracy card and now feel like losers in their own game.

What a moronic analogy. Are you seriously comparing the political and cultural bedrock of the West to a Satanic temple where vodoo is performed?

Using baseless statistics such as "the average man" only shows attempted emotional manipulation of weak minded sheeple when considering the fact that the majority of people in the west are consumers of commercial secularist usury funded t.v whose performers are motivated primarily by money, and entice the people to follow the latest popular trend set by deceitful media companies in order to fit in with the crowd in the false matrix as they live out their lives like battery hens religiously working for the government as the usurers pull the rug from beneath their feet.

I presented no statistics, boy. There are varying degrees off Allah-consciousnesses, and most of humanity are average in this category (if not below average), whether you like this fact or not. You speak as if the Muslim world is not as you described. Sure, they may not be as bad as the West in terms of moral degeneracy (they're getting there), but it's not like the common Muslim is training his spiritual awareness to see Oneness in multiplicity.

Anyways, my priority is not what the average man sees, but rather to make them see the justice which God guides humanity to - that's what distinguishes leaders from followers.

Your priority is to see the Face of Allah wherever you turn. It is Allah who shows Truth and destroys falsehood. Power comes to those who don't seek it.

Study the Quran and hopefully you'll learn to discern a little better.

Ditto.

And God is Who God is, so use your brains and don't punch above your weight.

Ditto.

He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer!

Irrelevant.

[Al_Ghazali]

Yet you defend white nationalism.

Prove it, or retract your lie.

I feel like I am speaking to a very confused individual, which means you're not white.

More ad-hom, and racism to boot! I guess I was right all along.

In which, I suggest you look up "inferiority complex" and "self hate" and "Stockholm syndrome" because you seem to suffer from it.

I'm afraid this may be mere projection.

[CuriousonTruth]

Neither nationalism nor sectarian violence were "created" by "Europeans" --that is just complete nonsense.

Sectarian violence in the Middle East has been going on within the Islamic sphere since the 7th century, and the Shia Sunni split. Before that, Hebrews were killing the Caananites and others for both religious AND ethnic reasons.

Did European powers amplify or stoke the ethnic tensions and problems in the ME in the 20th century? Certainly, but these things existed long before that.

The Turks conquered and butchered the Greeks in the 15th century, oppressed the Arabs for hundreds of years, and genocided the Armenians in the 20th century--something you refuse to recognize. Those actions were done for ethnic, religious, and national reasons. It was Ottoman Nationalism.

Again completely wrong. Nationalism as we know today was shaped by Revolutionary France, which heralded the end of monarchism and empires. It was WW1 when the process was completed.

Ottoman nationalism never existed before Mahmud II who was an admirer of the French revolution, who sent his pashas to France to learn these European concepts for modernization, only to bring the most destructive poison to the lands. The national anthem was composed during this time. Along with other changes which took place in Tanzimat reforms.

The sectarian wars ended with the Nader Shah, after Nader Shah died, Persia stopped being a threat to the Ottomans. After that there was relative peace before the arrival of Europeans.

There's a good documentary which I saw in Aljazeera on how Europeans open and re-opened old wounds and encouraged sectarian hatred, especially with the Christians in Lebanon, Egypt and Nusayrites (Alawites) in Syria. These are facts.

And I don't even want to start on the effect of European migrants (masquerading as jews) have had on the stability of the region. IDF and Mossad have been behind nearly every destabilizing activities. IDF general recently admitted they organized the coup against Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood.

Oppress arabs? Lmao what? They just put one governor in every region to collect taxes and in Egypt they kept the same Mamluk ruling family that was there before the conquest. In Tunisia, Algeria they only controlled the navy and pirates with giving a lot of autonomy to the local governors. The problems with Arabs boiled up during Young Turk rule - again because of nationalism.

[Silas]

Again completely wrong. Nationalism as we know today was shaped by Revolutionary France, which heralded the end of monarchism and empires. It was WW1 when the process was completed.

Ottoman nationalism never existed before Mahmud II who was an admirer of the French revolution, who sent his pashas to France to learn these European concepts for modernization, only to bring the most destructive poison to the lands. The national anthem was composed during this time. Along with other changes which took place in Tanzimat reforms.

The sectarian wars ended with the Nader Shah, after Nader Shah died, Persia stopped being a threat to the Ottomans. After that there was relative peace before the arrival of Europeans.

There's a good documentary which I saw in Aljazeera on how Europeans open and re-opened old wounds and encouraged sectarian hatred, especially with the Christians in Lebanon, Egypt and Nusayrites (Alawites) in Syria. These are facts.

And I don't even want to start on the effect of European migrants (masquerading as jews) have had on the stability of the region. IDF and Mossad have been behind nearly every destabilizing activities. IDF general recently admitted they organized the coup against Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood.

Oppress arabs? Lmao what? They just put one governor in every region to collect taxes and in Egypt they kept the same Mamluk ruling family that was there before the conquest. In Tunisia, Algeria they only controlled the navy and pirates with giving a lot of autonomy to the local governors. The problems with Arabs boiled up during Young Turk rule - again because of nationalism.

So let me ask you this:

You have said repeatedly on the forums that Europeans should not be allowed in Islamic lands (which I assume means Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc.), and that their mere presence in those lands constitutes a threat to the people and the faith. Your reasoning is that these people are dangerous, not merely because of their religion, customs, and ideology (as if these things are common), but that they are racially dangerous--like wild dogs or something.

You have also complained about the treatment of Muslims in the west, and have denounced "White Nationalism", while contending that Muslims from any region should be able to emigrate to western lands freely.

To top this off, you have pointed to the crimes of Europeans and western nation-states while explaining away the crimes of the Ottomans, or even the Arab conquests. Somehow equivalent actions are justified if someone prays 5 times a day apparently.

Explain how this is not hopelessly hypocritical and inconsistent? How is it even coherent?

It is like the Jews who complain about racial discrimination in the US while saying that putting Palestinians into camps and ghettos in Israel is justified, or moaning about the voting rights of minorities being violated while supporting their Apartheid ethno-state.

So you are saying because you are a Turkish Muslim, who get to be racist, isolationist, and hypocritical?

[Ahmed.]

How is it racism? It isn't any different than Palestinians not wanting their own country flooded by foreign Jews. It's not that the Arabs hated Jews. No, it was because they didn't want their land and society to be subject to cultural uprooting by a foreign demographic.

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How is it "worshipping ones own tribe?"

There is nothing wrong with a tribe not wanting their cultural and political landscape to be replaced by something completely forign. Paris looks like Pakistan these days. There is nothing racist in rejecting something like that.

It's racism as it's about colour. Palestinians is about territory and not colour. Jews literally kicked out the Palestinians from their land and grabbed power so the Palestinian and jew conflict is totally different

[Abz2000]

[Al_Ghazali]

I simply dissolved a false matrix and clarified the facts as they are in the "perception" of the Creator and Sustainer of the heavens and of the earth, and i have no choice or option but to agree that the facts are how they should be.

The same line of reasoning was and is used by everybody else. Your method does nothing to bridge gaps between humanity, nor does it help understand one another. The Quran clearly says that Allah wants us to know each other.

The political-social-cultural construct of falsehood, deceit, usury, injustice, infidelity, and satan worship is not one to be envied, and i'm afraid that The Creator has received too many millions of complaints from men, women, and children who have been murdered and starved by the actions of infidels with the above mentioned qualities - and He has taken a direct approach to warn before just desserts are administered.

Sure, and some white nationalists say the same thing about Islam. The Prophet said that Allah is contained in the hearts of all mankind. Allah is the Lord of all mankind, not just Sunni Muslims. Your stance is extremely egotistic.

Well, considering the fact that they were idolatrous pagans with no general sense of universal decency or morals before that, maybe a christian roman invasion would have been good for them (see Quran, chapter 30) if the Creator had not been gracious enough to send His final and universal messenger amongst them to bring them out from darkness to light by rehearsing to them the signs of Allah :swt: , purifying them from abomination, guiding them towards salvation, and saving them from hell.

You missed the point.

The argument of "doing away with your most cherished institutions" was an emotionally manipulative argument made by Pharaoh in the past, and invalid considering the fact that any criminal mafia leadership can make such a claim not subject to criticism - the claim is only valid if something universally better can be presented and accomplished without injustice and dependence on robbery via invasions based on false pretexts, and manipulation of world markets via worthless fiat currency - they way the bankrupt secularist criminals jumped and robbed gaddafi of the gold which he had accumulated when he attempted to throw away their fiat currency and put precious metallic coin into the hands of his people is quite telling of the bankruptcy of such invalid arguments.

The Muslims are not immigrating to the West to prove the Oneness of Allah and His Lordship over creation. Moses went to Egypt to free the Jews and remind the Pharaoh of the Reality and Lordship of Allah. Your analogy is flawed.

Satanists who perform voodoo rituals and make human sacrifices also want Satanic temples to remain Satanic whilst they go on performing voodoo rituals and making human sacrifices, that argument doesn't hold water without substance -especially considering that they played the democracy card and now feel like losers in their own game.

Another poor analogy. Either way, Satanists can do as they please. They don't live in an Islamic state, do they? The Muslim is supposed to mind his own affairs, as Islam stipulates.

Using baseless statistics such as "the average man" only shows attempted emotional manipulation of weak minded sheeple when considering the fact that the majority of people in the west are consumers of commercial secularist usury funded t.v whose performers are motivated primarily by money, and entice the people to follow the latest popular trend set by deceitful media companies in order to fit in with the crowd in the false matrix as they live out their lives like battery hens religiously working for the government as the usurers pull the rug from beneath their feet.

There are varying degrees of Taqwa, and most of humanity are average in this category (if not below average), whether you like this fact or not. You speak as if the Muslim world is not as you described. Sure, they may not be as bad as the West in terms of moral degeneracy (they're getting there), but it's not like the common Muslim is constantly training his spiritual awareness to see Oneness in creation.

Anyways, my priority is not what the average man sees, but rather to make them see the justice which God guides humanity to - that's what distinguishes leaders from followers.

Your priority is to see the Face of Allah wherever you turn:

2:115- And to Allah belongs the East and the west. So wherever you [might] turn, there is the Face of Allah. Indeed, Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.

It is Allah who shows Truth and destroys falsehood. Power comes to those who don't seek it.

[Zafran]

How is it "worshipping ones own tribe?"

There is nothing wrong with a tribe not wanting their cultural and political landscape to be replaced by something completely forign. Paris looks like Pakistan these days. There is nothing racist in rejecting something like that.

Because white nationalist put whiteness first then everything else second. The guy lives in a country that his ancestors took over from a previous culture the aboriginal people, so his whining has no sympathy from me. The white people of paris or any other country that usually have history of conquest and destruction of specific people eg France and Morocco or The UK and india or the US and american Indians.

You want to celebrate your specific ethnic, social and cultural identity - you should its a sign of God - but it does not supersede God. It should be celebrated with goodness and not in definition of the "other" which usually leads to racism, tribalism, caste-ism etc.

one can see this everywhere including the mid east where the Saudis and rich oil states shut the door on Syrian refugees or in Asia where Bangladesh shut the door on rohingyas.

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Sectarian violence in the Middle East has been going on within the Islamic sphere since the 7th century, and the Shia Sunni split. Before that, Hebrews were killing the Caananites and others for both religious AND ethnic reasons.

Thats not true because every empire in the history of Islam was a multi ethnic and multi religious empire not because they wanted it that way but because there was always diverse populations in the Mideast be it the The Ummayad, the Abbasid, Ottoman, Mughals etc etc. the same applies with every European empire - the monolithic culture is a myth and has never existed because it keeps getting reshaped by social, cultural, political and economic factors.

Did European powers amplify or stoke the ethnic tensions and problems in the ME in the 20th century? Certainly, but these things existed long before that.

Doesn't make the Europeans any better, - the Europeans invading the mid east just shows you mythical the white nationalist narrative is. If there was a monolithic white history why did Europeans invade in the first place? an alien land which had nothing to do with them?

The Turks conquered and butchered the Greeks in the 15th century, oppressed the Arabs for hundreds of years, and genocided the Armenians in the 20th century--something you refuse to recognize. Those actions were done for ethnic, religious, and national reasons. It was Ottoman Nationalism.

The Ottomans were not Turks (mothers were from diverse regions) - Turkish nationalism is modern post weshpahilan construct - the Ottomans (pre modern empire before the concept of nationalism even existed) included non Muslims (a lot of them) which helped run the empire - of course the Ottomans were just like any other empire. The arabs were not oppressed because they never ruled in the mid east after the fall of the Abbasid empire - mostly was Persian influence. The mamuluks were ethnically from the Caucasus mountains.

Nationalism itself is a modern, romantic concept that never existed until recently the modern period - lastly concepts like Marxism, liberalism, nationalism, socialism, fascism are all enlightenment European ideas not Jewish because there were a lot of Jews that were living in Ottoman empire after the Spanish Inquisition. It was after Isreal (a European creation) when they migrated out and the rise of "Arab nationalist" like Nasser and others.

[eesa the kiwi]

Its Ramadan dont you guys have better things to do than argue

Thread closed until after Ramadan inshaAllah (remind me to reopen it)
Barak Allah fikum