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Duachanges
05-05-2019, 05:40 PM
Salaam,

So I met someone that I want to marry we were both actually away from our deen- but guided each other towards it and we are both now alhumdulillah getting to a practising level. After two years of knowing each other and bettering our deen we decided to tell our families to get married. His family took it well mine not so much still they decided to meet with him and his family. Everyone was ok and fine except my mum who has an issue with his cast and doesn’t feel he is good enough for me and my family. She has never asked about his deen or really much about him. His cast is sufficient for her to refuse in her mind.
I was very upset and after a difficult month decided to remain patient, fyi I did istikhara before we even arranged our families to meet and from my understanding it was in favor to marry him that’s what I was inclined to do. Anyway 4 months on nothing has changed with my mum I would never force because I don’t want to hurt her she is all I have as my father has passed, my brothers do accept but won’t go against my mum understandably. I haven’t really brought it up or pushed for it since as the guy I want to marry is also going through some difficulties in his home life his circumstances have changed slightly in terms of his brother and his kids moving back in and now until they move out there isn’t enough space for me to move in. So that is another reason I am not pushing...
I have questions if someone could guide me please...
1- Should I continue and remain patient for his circumstances to change and try with my mum again?
2- Is this a sign that it’s not meant to be because we are having these hurdles? As I honestly didn’t expect my mum to refuse it’s not in her nature.
3- How do you know if god is testing your patience for you to keep pushing or god telling you to let go?

thank you so much and so sorry for the length :)
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Physicist
05-05-2019, 06:03 PM
There is always your choice in there.
Even if he will become homeless and your family will treat to disown you, there will still be the choice for you.
You need to be honest to youself and decide in which circumstances you'll marry him and in which you rather will look for other options.
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CuriousonTruth
05-05-2019, 06:45 PM
Caste?

Are you Pakistani? I don't remember any other muslim country with caste issues.
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Ahmed.
05-05-2019, 07:13 PM
Sister, this was really a good match for you, however since you have the iman level never to hurt your mum, then I think you know the answer which is to sacrifice this marraige to keep your mum happy

and Allah will give you something better!

PS: tell your mum once more or get an older relative who your mum may listen to or get the imam of the mosque to tell her that caste incompatibility really shouldn't be an issue here, she might accept, but if she doesn't, then you can only tell her so much so I think you should call it a day and move on.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
Caste?

Are you Pakistani? I don't remember any other muslim country with caste issues.
Not exactly caste, but the Hanafi madhab requires lineage compatibility too, to the extent where if girl marrys incompatible lineage guy without wali's consent then father can get marraige annulled in sharia court

- - - Updated - - -

Sis, I assume you live in a western country?, if so, then get an older relative or Imam to tell your mum that the culture is different here and you're mum cannot expect to leave her girl to bond relationship with a guy for 2 years and when everything else is perfect, she cannot say no just on the caste

See if this line works
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CuriousonTruth
05-05-2019, 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.

Not exactly caste, but the Hanafi madhab requires lineage compatibility too, to the extent where if girl marrys incompatible lineage guy without wali's consent then father can get marraige annulled in sharia court
Never heard of this before, really sounded like something they picked from Hinduism. That's the one good thing in BD, we destroyed nearly all caste systems...... well except for the one based on wealth.
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Ahmed.
05-05-2019, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
Never heard of this before, really sounded like something they picked from Hinduism. That's the one good thing in BD, we destroyed nearly all caste systems...... well except for the one based on wealth.
It's mentioned in Hanafi fiqh books

I couldn't find a direct reference online, but this alludes to it:

With regards to the different casts and the tendency in many to marry within one’s own caste, if this is based purely on pride and vainglory, then it is certainly something that is not in line with the teachings of Islam.

https://hanafilegalrulings.blogspot....me-of.html?m=1

So he's saying if it is out of pride and vainglory, then it is not in line with Islam, so it implies that if it's out of concern for couple or the two merging families not being socially compatible, then it's ok
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Duachanges
05-05-2019, 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Sister, this was really a good match for you, however since you have the iman level never to hurt your mum, then I think you know the answer which is to sacrifice this marraige to keep your mum happy

and Allah will give you something better!

PS: tell your mum once more or get an older relative who your mum may listen to or get the imam of the mosque to tell her that caste incompatibility really shouldn't be an issue here, she might accept, but if she doesn't, then you can only tell her so much so I think you should call it a day and move on.

- - - Updated - - -



Not exactly caste, but the Hanafi madhab requires lineage compatibility too, to the extent where if girl marrys incompatible lineage guy without wali's consent then father can get marraige annulled in sharia court

- - - Updated - - -

Sis, I assume you live in a western country?, if so, then get an older relative or Imam to tell your mum that the culture is different here and you're mum cannot expect to leave her girl to bond relationship with a guy for 2 years and when everything else is perfect, she cannot say no just on the caste

See if this line works
Thank you sis I do live in UK... I know ultimately I could push for this and get my mum to get on board.. my mum is not difficult and I don’t feel any anger or anything towards her she is my mum and she has given me everything... I guess my question is if I am seeing difficulty in getting this marriage is this a sign from god to not go ahead or am I being tested for patience. I always thought that if something is willed for you it will happen and because it isn’t happening easily does that mean it’s not willed? I think that’s where I am stuck because I am confused by the hurdles and delay...
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Ahmed.
05-05-2019, 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by Duachanges
Thank you sis I do live in UK... I know ultimately I could push for this and get my mum to get on board.. my mum is not difficult and I don’t feel any anger or anything towards her she is my mum and she has given me everything... I guess my question is if I am seeing difficulty in getting this marriage is this a sign from god to not go ahead or am I being tested for patience. I always thought that if something is willed for you it will happen and because it isn’t happening easily does that mean it’s not willed? I think that’s where I am stuck because I am confused by the hurdles and delay...
No this is not a sign that you should give up as everything is really fine with the guy except your mum's disapproval so the sign is that you should be patient in bringing your mum round to accept :)

I just heard a really good talk from Mufti Menk recently, he said, never give up and keep on trying in something you know is good for you! :)
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CuriousonTruth
05-05-2019, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
It's mentioned in Hanafi fiqh books

I couldn't find a direct reference online, but this alludes to it:

With regards to the different casts and the tendency in many to marry within one’s own caste, if this is based purely on pride and vainglory, then it is certainly something that is not in line with the teachings of Islam.

https://hanafilegalrulings.blogspot....me-of.html?m=1

So he's saying if it is out of pride and vainglory, then it is not in line with Islam, so it implies that if it's out of concern for couple or the two merging families not being socially compatible, then it's ok
How is being born in a "caste" determines compatibility, when compatibility is determined by personality (among many other things). As it mentioned firstly, it's mainly in the Indian sub-continent.
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Duachanges
05-05-2019, 08:14 PM
Thank you so much brother... it really does help because I have been fixated on if it’s meant to be it would come easily. However maybe it is a test of patience... ALLAH (swt) knows best

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Ahmed.
No this is not a sign that you should give up as everything is really fine with the guy except your mum's disapproval so the sign is that you should be patient in bringing your mum round to accept :)

I just heard a really good talk from Mufti Menk recently, he said, never give up and keep on trying in something you know is good for you! :)
Also I do enjoy Mufti Menks talks they are very powerful and fill you with hope thanks again brother :)
Reply

Ahmed.
05-05-2019, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
yeah seems like nonsense. How is being born in a "caste" determines compatibility, when compatibility is determined by personality (among many other things). As it mentioned firstly, it's mainly in the Indian sub-continent.

As I said, this is not one of the problems faced by my society, and I am happy we evolved from primitive tribalism and caste system and petty bickering over "lineage".
I thought you was ashari so how could you say Hanafi fiqh is nonsense?

The four madhabs have been verified by consensus so calling any aspect of their fiqh nonsense, especially from a laymen is arrogant and foolhardy bruv :Emoji46:

Go into above link and read how compatibility factor is very stressed in Hanafi fiqh, and that's where lineage comes into it :Emoji51:

Zainab (ra) a sahabi and cousin of Prophet (saw) got divorced from zaid (ra) due to incompatibility in lineage
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CuriousonTruth
05-05-2019, 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
I thought you was ashari so how could you say Hanafi fiqh is nonsense?

The four madhabs have been verified by consensus so calling any aspect of their fiqh nonsense, especially from a laymen is arrogant and foolhardy bruv :Emoji46:

Go into above link and read how compatibility factor is very stressed in Hanafi fiqh, and that's where lineage comes into it :Emoji51:

Zainab (ra) a sahabi and cousin of Prophet (saw) got divorced from zaid (ra) due to incompatibility in lineage
I don't remember ever reading about such practices in Ottoman empire, which was also based in Hanafi fiqh. Neither in Bangladesh either. I'm pretty sure this is something subcontinental clerics made up to justify bringing their older hindu traditions into islam.
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Ahmed.
05-05-2019, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
I don't remember ever reading about such practices in Ottoman empire, which was also based in Hanafi fiqh. Neither in Bangladesh either. I'm pretty sure this is something subcontinental clerics made up to justify bringing their older hindu traditions into islam.
Oh so now you have read everything about Islam have you? And if you havnt read about it then this means it's not in Islam??? :Emoji46:

Bruv I've read many of your posts for months and trust me, you still need to read 99.9 percent of Islamic knowledge to learn 'everything' about Hanafi fiqh

I read it in ibn abidins? fiqh book and he isn't subcontinental or contemporary bro, he is as traditional as they come, there is more explanations here:

https://m.facebook.com/sufinaqshband...92403417465981
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CuriousonTruth
05-05-2019, 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Oh so now you have read everything about Islam have you? And if you havnt read about it then this means it's not in Islam??? :Emoji46:

Bruv I've read many of your posts for months and trust me, you still need to read 99.9 percent of Islamic knowledge to learn 'everything' about Hanafi fiqh

I read it in ibn abidins? fiqh book and he isn't subcontinental or contemporary bro, he is as traditional as they come, there is more explanations here:

https://m.facebook.com/sufinaqshband...92403417465981
I didn't say I knew everything or read everything, but I have not read about this 'law' being applied in Ottoman empire. And you haven't given any proof to the contrary.
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Ahmed.
05-05-2019, 09:37 PM
This adresses Arabs, however it shows how lineage compatibility is part of Hanafi jurists fiqh. This means it's originally from the jurists Abu Hanifa and his students:

KAFA'AH (SUITABILITY AND COMPATIBILITY) IN NIKAH

A healthy marital life coupled with a good relationship make up the prime objects of Nikah. That is only possible when natural inclinations and backgrounds are shared (by both spouses). In the absence of such unity, living together successfully, despite great effort is indeed difficult, as attested to by many marital breakdowns due to non-compatibility.

Certain actions and situations elicit different responses from persons of differing backgrounds and nature. For this reason, the Shari’ah has considered Kafaa’at (suitability and compatibility) between spouses necessary.

Kafaa’at in Lineage

Due to the above, the Fuqahaa (Jurists) have stated that among Arabs, a non-Quraishi male is not a match (Kuf) for a Quraishi woman, nor can any person of non-Arab descent be a match for a woman of Arab descent.For example, the Sayyids, whether Siddique or Farooque, Uthmaani or Alawi, or belonging to some other branch can never be matched by any person not sharing their lineage, no matter his profession and family status.

These families (Sayyids, etc.) are suitable matches for one another, since they share descent from the Quraishi tribe. Thus, marriages between themselves are correct and permitted without any condition as appearing in Darrul Mukhtaar: ‘…

And Kafaa’at in lineage. Thus the Quraysh are suitable matches for one another as are the (other) Arabs suitable matches for one another.’

The ruling relevant to non-Arabs is as follows: ‘An Ajmi (non-Arab) cannot be a match for a woman of Arab descent, no matter that he be an Aalim (religious scholar) or even a Sultan (ruling authority). This is the correct view.)

http://askimam.org/public/question_detail/13925.html
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Ahmed.
05-05-2019, 10:37 PM
My last post on this as I don't like to argue; I've found out the hadith that this ruling is based on

On the following hadith, emphasis is put on piety, however the Prophet (saw) is also telling us the other 3 things are factors to look for in marraige compatibility:


Religion is certainly given priority when deciding whether to marry someone as indicated by the prophetic statement, “A woman may be married for four reasons: for her wealth, for her lineage, for her beauty, or for her religion, so marry one who is religious.” [Bukhari, Muslim]

However, this does not mean that other factors should not be taken into account.

http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2014/...onsiderations/

So you don't need any Ottoman verification now @CuriousonTruth , you got the Prophet's (saw) direct words :)
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*charisma*
05-06-2019, 02:06 AM
Assalamu Alaikum

If you have prayed istikhara and things are not going in your favor, that is a sign from Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala that he is moving you away from this person. Istikhara is not simply based on feelings but more so the circumstances surrounding the situation.

It's good that you have moved closer to your deen and perhaps this was his purpose. But now you need to move on and not dwell on the situation. If he is destined for you, things will go much more smoothly and your opportunity will reoccur again. For now though, it doesn't seem that promising.
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