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Ümit
07-01-2019, 06:40 AM
Selamun Aleykum,

I would like to ask a question especially to our brothers and sisters who do not follow a madhab and why.

This because I wonder what made their decision to not follow one of the four madhabs but instead followed something else or found their own way.

In no way am I attacking or criticizing our salafi, wahabi or any other muslim brothers and sisters but just because of my curiousity behind their decision making.

To give a background story in why this question suddenly pops up in my head:

I stumbled upon this well known hadeeth:

Sunan Ibn Majah » Book of Tribulations » Hadith
كتاب الفتن 36 Tribulations
(17)Chapter: The division of nations(17) باب افْتِرَاقِ الأُمَمِ
It was narrated from ‘Awf bin Malik that the Messenger of Allah(ﷺ) said:
“The Jews split into seventy-one sects, one of which will be in Paradise and seventy in Hell. The Christians split into seventy-two sects, seventy-one of which will be in Hell and one in Paradise. I swear by the One Whose Hand is the soul of Muhammad, my nation will split into seventy-three sects, one of which will be in Paradise and seventy-two in Hell.” It was said: “O Messenger of Allah, who are they?” He said: “The main body.”
حَدَّثَنَا عَمْرُو بْنُ عُثْمَانَ بْنِ سَعِيدِ بْنِ كَثِيرِ بْنِ دِينَارٍ الْحِمْصِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبَّادُ بْنُ يُوسُفَ، حَدَّثَنَا صَفْوَانُ بْنُ عَمْرٍو، عَنْ رَاشِدِ بْنِ سَعْدٍ، عَنْ عَوْفِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ ‏"‏ افْتَرَقَتِ الْيَهُودُ عَلَى إِحْدَى وَسَبْعِينَ فِرْقَةً فَوَاحِدَةٌ فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَسَبْعُونَ فِي النَّارِ وَافْتَرَقَتِ النَّصَارَى عَلَى ثِنْتَيْنِ وَسَبْعِينَ فِرْقَةً فَإِحْدَى وَسَبْعُونَ فِي النَّارِ وَوَاحِدَةٌ فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَالَّذِي نَفْسُ مُحَمَّدٍ بِيَدِهِ لَتَفْتَرِقَنَّ أُمَّتِي عَلَى ثَلاَثٍ وَسَبْعِينَ فِرْقَةً فَوَاحِدَةٌ فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَثِنْتَانِ وَسَبْعُونَ فِي النَّارِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قِيلَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ مَنْ هُمْ قَالَ ‏"‏ الْجَمَاعَةُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏
Reference : Sunan Ibn Majah 3992
In-book reference : Book 36, Hadith 67
English translation : Vol. 5, Book 36, Hadith 3992


Sunan Ibn Majah » Book of Tribulations » Hadith
كتاب الفتن 36 Tribulations
(17)Chapter: The division of nations(17) باب افْتِرَاقِ الأُمَمِ
It was narrated from Anas bin Malik that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
‘The Children of Israel split into seventy-one sects, and my nation will split into seventy-two, all of which will be in Hell apart from one, which is the main body.”
حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامُ بْنُ عَمَّارٍ، حَدَّثَنَا الْوَلِيدُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عَمْرٍو، حَدَّثَنَا قَتَادَةُ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ ‏ "‏ إِنَّ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ افْتَرَقَتْ عَلَى إِحْدَى وَسَبْعِينَ فِرْقَةً وَإِنَّ أُمَّتِي سَتَفْتَرِقُ عَلَى ثِنْتَيْنِ وَسَبْعِينَ فِرْقَةً كُلُّهَا فِي النَّارِ إِلاَّ وَاحِدَةً وَهِيَ الْجَمَاعَةُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏
Grade : Sahih (Darussalam)
Reference : Sunan Ibn Majah 3993
In-book reference : Book 36, Hadith 68
English translation : Vol. 5, Book 36, Hadith 3993


Jami` at-Tirmidhi » The Book on Faith » Hadith
كتاب الإيمان عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم 40 The Book on Faith
(18)Chapter: What Has Been Related About The Splitting That Will Occur In This Ummah(18) باب مَا جَاءَ فِي افْتِرَاقِ هَذِهِ الأُمَّةِ
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr:
that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "What befell the children of Isra'il will befall my Ummah, step by step, such that if there was one who had intercourse with his mother in the open, then there would be someone from my Ummah who would do that. Indeed the children of Isra'il split into seventy-two sects, and my Ummah will split into seventy-three sects. All of them are in the Fire Except one sect." He said: "And which is it O Messenger of Allah?" He said: "What I am upon and my Companions."
حَدَّثَنَا مَحْمُودُ بْنُ غَيْلاَنَ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو دَاوُدَ الْحَفَرِيُّ، عَنْ سُفْيَانَ الثَّوْرِيِّ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ زِيَادِ بْنِ أَنْعُمَ الإِفْرِيقِيِّ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ يَزِيدَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لَيَأْتِيَنَّ عَلَى أُمَّتِي مَا أَتَى عَلَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ حَذْوَ النَّعْلِ بِالنَّعْلِ حَتَّى إِنْ كَانَ مِنْهُمْ مَنْ أَتَى أُمَّهُ عَلاَنِيَةً لَكَانَ فِي أُمَّتِي مَنْ يَصْنَعُ ذَلِكَ وَإِنَّ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ تَفَرَّقَتْ عَلَى ثِنْتَيْنِ وَسَبْعِينَ مِلَّةً وَتَفْتَرِقُ أُمَّتِي عَلَى ثَلاَثٍ وَسَبْعِينَ مِلَّةً كُلُّهُمْ فِي النَّارِ إِلاَّ مِلَّةً وَاحِدَةً قَالُوا وَمَنْ هِيَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ قَالَ مَا أَنَا عَلَيْهِ وَأَصْحَابِي ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى هَذَا حَدِيثٌ مُفَسَّرٌ حَسَنٌ غَرِيبٌ لاَ نَعْرِفُهُ مِثْلَ هَذَا إِلاَّ مِنْ هَذَا الْوَجْهِ ‏.‏
Reference : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 2641
In-book reference : Book 40, Hadith 36
English translation : Vol. 5, Book 38, Hadith 2641


Sunan Abi Dawud » Book of Model Behavior of the Prophet (Kitab Al-Sunnah) » Hadith
كتاب السنة 42 Model Behavior of the Prophet (Kitab Al-Sunnah)
(1677)Chapter: Explanation of the Sunnah(1) باب شَرْحِ السُّنَّةِ
Abu `Amir al-Hawdhani said:
Mu`awiyah b. Abi Sufiyan stood among us and said: Beware! The Apostle of Allah (ﷺ) stood among us and said: Beware! The people of the Book before were split up into seventy two sects, and this community will be split into seventy three: seventy two of them will go to Hell and one of them will go to Paradise, and it is the majority group.
Ibn Yahya and `Amr added in their version : “ There will appear among my community people who will be dominated by desires like rabies which penetrates its patient”, `Amr’s version has: “penetrates its patient. There remains no vein and no joint but it penetrates it.”
حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ حَنْبَلٍ، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى، قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْمُغِيرَةِ، حَدَّثَنَا صَفْوَانُ، ح وَحَدَّثَنَا عَمْرُو بْنُ عُثْمَانَ، حَدَّثَنَا بَقِيَّةُ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي صَفْوَانُ، نَحْوَهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي أَزْهَرُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْحَرَازِيُّ، عَنْ أَبِي عَامِرٍ الْهَوْزَنِيِّ، عَنْ مُعَاوِيَةَ بْنِ أَبِي سُفْيَانَ، أَنَّهُ قَامَ فِينَا فَقَالَ أَلاَ إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَامَ فِينَا فَقَالَ ‏"‏ أَلاَ إِنَّ مَنْ قَبْلَكُمْ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ افْتَرَقُوا عَلَى ثِنْتَيْنِ وَسَبْعِينَ مِلَّةً وَإِنَّ هَذِهِ الْمِلَّةَ سَتَفْتَرِقُ عَلَى ثَلاَثٍ وَسَبْعِينَ ثِنْتَانِ وَسَبْعُونَ فِي النَّارِ وَوَاحِدَةٌ فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَهِيَ الْجَمَاعَةُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ زَادَ ابْنُ يَحْيَى وَعَمْرٌو فِي حَدِيثَيْهِمَا ‏"‏ وَإِنَّهُ سَيَخْرُجُ مِنْ أُمَّتِي أَقْوَامٌ تَجَارَى بِهِمْ تِلْكَ الأَهْوَاءُ كَمَا يَتَجَارَى الْكَلْبُ لِصَاحِبِهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَقَالَ عَمْرٌو ‏"‏ الْكَلْبُ بِصَاحِبِهِ لاَ يَبْقَى مِنْهُ عِرْقٌ وَلاَ مَفْصِلٌ إِلاَّ دَخَلَهُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4597
In-book reference : Book 42, Hadith 2
English translation : Book 41, Hadith 4580

These are saheeh hadeeths with a serious warning, so not something to take lightly.

We all know that the four madhabs are surely correct and have by far the greatest amount of followers so following one of the four ways is surely safe.
we can choose the one that fits ourselves best, we can even switch to another madhab if the need is there....but we cannot cherrypick rules between madhabs to only follow the rules that fits us best.

Especially new converts quite often claim that they cannot choose between the different madhabs and just follow their own way, which is to only do those things when it is allowed in all four madhabs and leaving out every other convenience of the individual madhabs.
Isn't this also a form of cherrypicking?

Our beloved Prophet sas didn't also always pick the hardest ways, left out all the luxuries...but he also thought about his own convenience every once in a while. Fasted some days, and some days not, mounted an expensive horse when he could afford and didn't have one when he couldn't.
Leaving out the luxuries and convenience is not liked in Islaam.

Of course the thing to determine is what exactly is meant with "sects"? are for example wahabism or sufism different sects than the four madhabs or can we say sunni's is one sect? This uncertainty is in my honost opinion the reason that makes the choice of something else than the four madhabs very dangerous.

So my excact question is like:

If you can choose one of the most secure and convenient ways where you can be sure that you follow the correct sect because that is the majority of followers...why then to take a huge risk and follow a potentially an insecure and inconvenient road?

Am I missing out on something?

again please forgive my curiousity...I just want a decent conversation about this.
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MazharShafiq
07-01-2019, 08:04 AM
good post and informative sharing.
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Ümit
07-01-2019, 09:44 AM
Thank you very much, but that post wasn't meant to be informative.

I provided this information to explain why I started this thread.

In my opinion when everybody already agreed that the four madhabs are safe to follow and it is easy and convenient, and by following a different road you have a (even when its the slightest) risk to be the other 72 sects which end up in Hell....why would one take that risk and make life harder for himself?

So I was interested what motivation those people than have...because they chose that for an apparant reason...I assume they also want to follow the right path...and they put so much effort to do good.

So why not choose a secure path.
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keiv
07-01-2019, 11:07 AM
I think a detailed answer is more suitable than what I'm going to post but, I don't think we can classify following a particular madhab as being a "sect" in itself. In fact, I think using the word "following" might not even be suitable here. I could be wrong but I vaguely remember reading that one or more of them didn't necessarily want people to "follow" them since there could be mistakes in their work. Another thing you have to look into are what makes the 4 madhabs different from one another. I think what's going on is people pick one school of thought and create a sect out of it.

My knowledge on the matter is clearly limited, so this is strictly my opinion.
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Ümit
07-01-2019, 11:21 AM
No, if every madhab was a "sect", then 3 madhabs would be false madhabs, because according to the hadeeth 72 out of 73 sects will end up in hell.
We know all 4 madhabs are lawfull madhabs, therefore at least these 4 madhabs are parts of this one "sect".
Perhaps this sect is a little bit bigger because some other groups of people (perhaps sufi's and wahabi's) also are parts of this one sect...but again, in my opinion that is a risk.

And of course the 4 scholars do not want people to follow them...because of their modesty and huge responsibility. they were only humans and had their mistakes. when they make one small totally unimportant detail...that could have huge consequences in later generations. One of them was even afraid to speak or to answer questions because of his fear of saying something wrong. To almost all questions he answered "I do not know".

Edit: Oh and of course I appreciate your opinion. Thank you very much!
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Ahmed.
07-01-2019, 12:19 PM
Oops sorry nevermind
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Nerdo
07-01-2019, 06:14 PM
"People of Hadith" understand principal Islamic books well. Sahih Hadith books and Quran.
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Supernova
07-01-2019, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by Ümit
Am I missing out on something?
Asalaamualaykum : Yes, you are missing a point.

Your understanding pertaining to "sects" are incorrect.

The issue about the "sects" are not Fiqh (jurisprudence) differences, they are MAJOR differences in Aqeeda. (Belief)

Example: Certain sects had beliefs like Jannath and Jahanam don't exist Or issues like whether angles exist and so on. These are the sects that Rasool SAW is talking about.

It has nothing to do with the 4 Madhabs Vs Salafi Vs Wahabi as you thinking. Please research the topic further and you will understand the issue.

It is a good topic though to discuss, especially in these days and times whereby we have a mixture of everybody everywhere.
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Ümit
07-01-2019, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Supernova
Asalaamualaykum : Yes, you are missing a point.

Your understanding pertaining to "sects" are incorrect.

The issue about the "sects" are not Fiqh (jurisprudence) differences, they are MAJOR differences in Aqeeda. (Belief)

Example: Certain sects had beliefs like Jannath and Jahanam don't exist Or issues like whether angles exist and so on. These are the sects that Rasool SAW is talking about.

It has nothing to do with the 4 Madhabs Vs Salafi Vs Wahabi as you thinking. Please research the topic further and you will understand the issue.

It is a good topic though to discuss, especially in these days and times whereby we have a mixture of everybody everywhere.
my understanding pertaining to "sects" was part of the question.
İ literally asked: "Of course the thing to determine is what exactly is meant with "sects"? are for example wahabism or sufism different sects than the four madhabs or can we say sunni's is one sect? This uncertainty is in my honost opinion the reason that makes the choice of something else than the four madhabs very dangerous."

so you may be right but can you back your claim up with hadeeth or fatwas please? you seem to be pretty sute about your claim
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Ahmed.
07-01-2019, 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by keiv
I think a detailed answer is more suitable than what I'm going to post but, I don't think we can classify following a particular madhab as being a "sect" in itself. In fact, I think using the word "following" might not even be suitable here. I could be wrong but I vaguely remember reading that one or more of them didn't necessarily want people to "follow" them since there could be mistakes in their work. Another thing you have to look into are what makes the 4 madhabs different from one another. I think what's going on is people pick one school of thought and create a sect out of it.

My knowledge on the matter is clearly limited, so this is strictly my opinion.
Salam brother

The not to follow instructions by some? of the Imams was adressed to Mujtahid Scholars as they have to follow their own ijtihad. Laymen were never instructed not to follow
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Supernova
07-01-2019, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Ümit
my understanding pertaining to "sects" was part of the question.
İ literally asked: "Of course the thing to determine is what exactly is meant with "sects"? are for example wahabism or sufism different sects than the four madhabs or can we say sunni's is one sect? This uncertainty is in my honost opinion the reason that makes the choice of something else than the four madhabs very dangerous."

so you may be right but can you back your claim up with hadeeth or fatwas please? you seem to be pretty sute about your claim
I have already given you a summary. In the first case, the Hadith you have provided was already misunderstood by you. Even if I were to provide further hadith or fatwa, you still have to understand your own presentation first.

The best thing in this case, is to sit with a Mufti and ask him to explain the hadith that you have presented to its fullest meaning.
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Physicist
07-02-2019, 10:48 AM
This is about those who went astray.
Like Christians, who associated Jesus with God, Shia whose praising of Ali turned into worshipping and etc.
Following anyone or anything implies risk of worshipping.
Only Allah is to be worshipped.

Schools of thought are there merely for our convenience, to ease learning, to organize social life, etc.
Those are like branches of tree, which splits into smaller branches and so on. More narrow one's views, more blind he becomes.

Sura 14 - Ayat 24

أَلَمْ تَرَ كَيْفَ ضَرَبَ ٱللَّهُ مَثَلاً كَلِمَةً طَيِّبَةً كَشَجَرَةٍ طَيِّبَةٍ أَصْلُهَا ثَابِتٌ وَفَرْعُهَا فِى ٱلسَّمَآءِ

Have you not considered how Allah presents an example, [making] a good word like a good tree, whose root is firmly fixed and its branches [high] in the sky?
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alfaqir
07-02-2019, 02:40 PM
I'm not sure if it is about cherrypicking or necessarily a conscious choice. Laymen will most likely read and learn from works available for them, non-madhhabis reading sources written by Salafi scholars... in many ways it behaves like a madhhab in itself, with its own methodology. In many places, esp. I think in the Arab world traditional madhhabs are long in decline. Salafis are imo also more active in the West, have a larger global activity (petrodollars behind them), they also have far more publications in the Western languages, so in that way they also have a larger impact reaching out converts.

(And of course our current view of the 4 equally good madhhabs is also a result of long historical development, there used to be more, many of them which gone extinct, and they were not always in so nice harmonious coexistence with each other, not always accepting each other as equally correct..., i think it was only during the Mamluk Empire when our current view of them were truly consolidated...)
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فصيح الياسين
07-02-2019, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Ümit
my understanding pertaining to "sects" was part of the question.
İ literally asked: "Of course the thing to determine is what exactly is meant with "sects"? are for example wahabism or sufism different sects than the four madhabs or can we say sunni's is one sect? This uncertainty is in my honost opinion the reason that makes the choice of something else than the four madhabs very dangerous."

so you may be right but can you back your claim up with hadeeth or fatwas please? you seem to be pretty sute about your claim
Assalaomalikum he is absolutely right. 4 madhabs arent the sects. Sects are made on creeds not on jurisprudence.

For example 4 madhabs are on either maturidi or asha'ri creed and this sect called as ahle sunnah wal jamma'h and most muslims belongs to this creed

Another is creed of muhadetheen slightest to none diffrence between them and ahle sunnah wal jammah basic difference is on the definition of eeman. And is followed by salafi etc

Another is shia due to diffrences of their beliefs in some matters

Third one is al-khawarij who called ali r.a as a kafir ma'azallah

Another and mostly the headache mu'tazilla

Another jabriya whose beliefs were that human is forced what is written so no choices etc to take path of heaven or hell

One of them is qadariya whose beliefs are to decline the fate and every thing is full choices and no empowerment from the allah

Like these others exists too like jahimiya etc and all are the sects

All are sects cause everyone's beliefs are different from one other and hope this helps
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yasoooo
07-30-2019, 05:57 AM
Dr.Zakir Naik - Islam The Solution For Problems of Mankind (Full
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tisakg5UTH4

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