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adil1992
07-07-2019, 10:32 PM
Assalamualaikum,

The four madhabs are great scholars of Islam. May Allah reward them for their dedication in helping the Islamic world.

I was born a Muslim but wasn't raised in a family that is practicing so I went away from the deen for majority of my life and only till quite recently I have been back on the right path, I'm not perfect but I try my best.

majority of mosque near me are deobandi ( i live in london ) and they advise to follow the teachings of abu hanifah strictly and stick to that. Whilst I understand for a laymen, it is almost possible for us to interpret hadiths and Qur'an in a way educated scholars can so we have to rely on the teachings of a respected madhab. My question is, to
stricly follow one madhab is it permissible?

In my humble opinion I am of the view that you should have a
a trusted scholar that you go for Islamic views but to completely stick to one is surely wrong ? The great imams like abu hanifa were only humans and could of made errors so to blindly follow them is wrong.

In no way am I implying that Indivduals should go and interpret Qur'an and hadiths and issue themselves "fatwas" that is completely wrong for a laymen and this one of the reasons why we have so much extremism in islam - but surely there has to be a middle ground where both sides can meet in which you follow your respected madhab but in issues you feel they are wrong , you can go with another view, but only if you belive sincerely that the view is correct. I'm seeing with my own eyes that Indivduals have doubts over a view of a madhab but because of their strict following of a madhab they are not willing to take another view regardless of the evidence.

I'm sure this is a topic most people have been through and have different views.
Reply

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Physicist
07-07-2019, 10:51 PM
Waalaikumussalaam,
Just recently there was similar thread, you may want to look through: https://www.islamicboard.com/general...-new-post.html

four madhabs vs other sunni's...which one to choose?
Selamun Aleykum, I would like to ask a question especially to our brothers and sisters who do not follow a madhab and why. This because I wonder what m...
Reply

Ahmed.
07-08-2019, 12:23 PM
walaikum assalam rahmatullahi barakatuh

The reality is that one needs to be qualified as a Mujtahid scholar to perform ijtihad (to derive opinions from Islamic sources and judge one view over another) or otherwise they don't have the complete picture, so even though a laymen (in this context a laymen means anyone not qualified as the utmost scholarly level of mujtahid) might feel he is sincere in his judgement of one view over another, yet he cannot be sincere without the full picture hence he has fallen for some subtle d3ception wether it is the desire to accept a view that's easier or more convenient for him or wether it's following his ego to feel he is using his brain and not being a 'sheep' like the majority

In regards to the four Imams making mistakes, hadiths say consensus' can never be wrong and the four madhabs have been checked for centuries and in the 12th century the consensus declared that all 4 madhabs are comprehensively correct and there is no need for further verification

There are a couple of links that if read together it will give a fully comprehensive explanation of the 'following a madhab' stance.

First link is article by late great Scholar Murabtal hajj and translated by Hamza Yusuf:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm

S3cond link gives the evidences for the madhabi stance:

http://masud.co.uk/who-are-the-ahl-a...ah-wal-jamaah/
Reply

Ümit
07-08-2019, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by adil1992
Assalamualaikum,

The four madhabs are great scholars of Islam. May Allah reward them for their dedication in helping the Islamic world.

I was born a Muslim but wasn't raised in a family that is practicing so I went away from the deen for majority of my life and only till quite recently I have been back on the right path, I'm not perfect but I try my best.

majority of mosque near me are deobandi ( i live in london ) and they advise to follow the teachings of abu hanifah strictly and stick to that. Whilst I understand for a laymen, it is almost possible for us to interpret hadiths and Qur'an in a way educated scholars can so we have to rely on the teachings of a respected madhab. My question is, to
stricly follow one madhab is it permissible?

In my humble opinion I am of the view that you should have a
a trusted scholar that you go for Islamic views but to completely stick to one is surely wrong ? The great imams like abu hanifa were only humans and could of made errors so to blindly follow them is wrong.

In no way am I implying that Indivduals should go and interpret Qur'an and hadiths and issue themselves "fatwas" that is completely wrong for a laymen and this one of the reasons why we have so much extremism in islam - but surely there has to be a middle ground where both sides can meet in which you follow your respected madhab but in issues you feel they are wrong , you can go with another view, but only if you belive sincerely that the view is correct. I'm seeing with my own eyes that Indivduals have doubts over a view of a madhab but because of their strict following of a madhab they are not willing to take another view regardless of the evidence.

I'm sure this is a topic most people have been through and have different views.
no. if you choose a madhab...(which would be my advice) then you have to strictly follow one of them. because it is wrong to mix the individual madhabs together. you are also free to switch madhabs if you need to...but you are not allowed to follow hanafi rules during eating...shaafi rules for praying...maliki rules for wudu...or something like that.
so choose which one suits you best...and stick to that only one madhab.
Reply

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Abz2000
07-08-2019, 05:40 PM
The bayah to the leaders of the time and places of the knowledgeable, wise, and respected scholars would have usually made their opinions legally binding in the areas which were governed by leaders who accepted their opinions - since the leaders had chosen them as primary consultants and rule-setters, and that is how the system of government runs.
However, after the above mentioned scholars passed away, the bayah to them would end and would go on to the most worthy scholars after them as there is no room for sects in Islam - the precedents they set could be used as references which are to be continually revised according to new issues by trustworthy, wise, and knowledgeable scholars of the age in accordance with the Book of Allah :swt:

The fact that so many people are still following the rulings of dead judges without budging is a sign of intellectual stagnation and lack of trust in the opinions of current scholars.

The fact that Allah's final messenger Muhammad :saws: advised us in his farewell speech to refer to the book of Allah :swt: , and that current scholars have a rich amount of combined literature with sifting abilities, consisting of Quran, the interpretations of Allah's messenger Muhammad :saws: the four respected scholars, other respected scholars, history, and current findings - is sufficient to tell us that the Muslim ummah has higher goals to reach.


Al-Baqarah 2:134

تِلْكَ أُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْۖ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَكُم مَّا كَسَبْتُمْۖ وَلَا تُسْـَٔلُونَ عَمَّا كَانُوا۟ يَعْمَلُونَ

English - Yusuf Ali

That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case!

English - Sahih International

That was a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do.

-------


Al-An'am 6:159

إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ فَرَّقُوا۟ دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُوا۟ شِيَعًا لَّسْتَ مِنْهُمْ فِى شَىْءٍۚ إِنَّمَآ أَمْرُهُمْ إِلَى ٱللَّهِ ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا كَانُوا۟ يَفْعَلُونَ

English - Yusuf Ali

As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.

English - Sahih International

Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do.

------

There is a difference between - shi'a imaam Abu Hanifa, Shi'a imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, shi'a imaam Abu Maalik, shi'a imaam Ash-Shaafi' - and i am Muslim li Allah :swt: and i hear and obey in accordance to obedience of Allah :swt:

Islam means Submission to Allah :swt: and attainment of peace from Him.

There is the question of baya' and sami'na wa atua'na, and these cannot be given to dead people, but rather to people who are alive and worthy of obedience in Allah's cause - ul al amr min kum - who legislate wisely for Allah's sake.


If you can't find anyone - then weep to Allah :swt: for the weak situation and do what you can to rectify it whilst knowing that obedience is due to Allah :swt: and that the judgement and scales are His.

But please be careful of attempting to give your baya' to a dead body who cannot hear your calls now, and who will reject your baya' to him on the day of judgement, and if you obey ANY ruling whether of past or present, do it only in obedience to Allah :swt: as His bondman/woman and not as a bondman/woman held in bounds by the respected dead imaams.

كتاب الصلاة 2 Prayer (Kitab Al-Salat)
(240)Chapter: Praying In Sandals(91) باب الصَّلاَةِ فِي النَّعْلِ

Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri:

While the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was leading his Companions in prayer, he took off his sandals and laid them on his left side; so when the people saw this, they removed their sandals. When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) finished his prayer, he asked: What made you remove your sandals? The replied: We saw you remove your sandals, so we removed our sandals.
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) then said: Gabriel came to me and informed me that there was filth in them. When any of you comes to the mosque, he should see; if he finds filth on his sandals, he should wipe it off and pray in them.

حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَبِي نَعَامَةَ السَّعْدِيِّ، عَنْ أَبِي نَضْرَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ، قَالَ بَيْنَمَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يُصَلِّي بِأَصْحَابِهِ إِذْ خَلَعَ نَعْلَيْهِ فَوَضَعَهُمَا عَنْ يَسَارِهِ فَلَمَّا رَأَى ذَلِكَ الْقَوْمُ أَلْقَوْا نِعَالَهُمْ فَلَمَّا قَضَى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم صَلاَتَهُ قَالَ ‏"‏ مَا حَمَلَكُمْ عَلَى إِلْقَائِكُمْ نِعَالَكُمْ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالُوا رَأَيْنَاكَ أَلْقَيْتَ نَعْلَيْكَ فَأَلْقَيْنَا نِعَالَنَا ‏.‏ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ إِنَّ جِبْرِيلَ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَتَانِي فَأَخْبَرَنِي أَنَّ فِيهِمَا قَذَرًا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَقَالَ ‏"‏ إِذَا جَاءَ أَحَدُكُمْ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ فَلْيَنْظُرْ فَإِنْ رَأَى فِي نَعْلَيْهِ قَذَرًا أَوْ أَذًى فَلْيَمْسَحْهُ وَلْيُصَلِّ فِيهِمَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Grade : Sahih (Al-Albani) صحيح (الألباني) حكم :
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 650
In-book reference : Book 2, Hadith 260
English translation : Book 2, Hadith 650
Report Error | Share


https://sunnah.com/abudawud/2/260


The four imaams themselves saw that their ultimate pledge was to Allah :swt: Whose Hand was over the hands of the leaders to whom they gave allegiance, that is why they were sometimes made to suffer by the leaders and why imaam Ahmad was whipped - however we believe that the Prophet :saws: would pray with his right hand over his left, and that imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal only prayed with his hands down because of the physical pain he was in, so when we see people praying with their hands down, i remember the empty droning shell of Tony Blair at "saint Paul's cathedral" reciting rhyming verses that he probably didn't understand a word of as he was chanting them.
Reply

Ahmed.
07-30-2019, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
walaikum assalam rahmatullahi barakatuh

The reality is that one needs to be qualified as a Mujtahid scholar to perform ijtihad (to derive opinions from Islamic sources and judge one view over another) or otherwise they don't have the complete picture, so even though a laymen (in this context a laymen means anyone not qualified as the utmost scholarly level of mujtahid) might feel he is sincere in his judgement of one view over another, yet he cannot be sincere without the full picture hence he has fallen for some subtle d3ception wether it is the desire to accept a view that's easier or more convenient for him or wether it's following his ego to feel he is using his brain and not being a 'sheep' like the majority

In regards to the four Imams making mistakes, hadiths say consensus' can never be wrong and the four madhabs have been checked for centuries and in the 12th century the consensus declared that all 4 madhabs are comprehensively correct and there is no need for further verification

There are a couple of links that if read together it will give a fully comprehensive explanation of the 'following a madhab' stance.

First link is article by late great Scholar Murabtal hajj and translated by Hamza Yusuf:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm

S3cond link gives the evidences for the madhabi stance:

http://masud.co.uk/who-are-the-ahl-a...ah-wal-jamaah/
Can I just clarify that individuals can make mistakes, but collectively a school of thought can be error free as other teachers rectify mistakes and verify each others' opinions, thus what is error free in the four schools are the schools themselves that are the collective efforts of all jurists of those schools
Reply

Ahmed.
07-30-2019, 04:27 PM
.....

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Abz2000
The bayah to the leaders of the time and places of the knowledgeable, wise, and respected scholars would have usually made their opinions legally binding in the areas which were governed by leaders who accepted their opinions - since the leaders had chosen them as primary consultants and rule-setters, and that is how the system of government runs.
However, after the above mentioned scholars passed away, the bayah to them would end and would go on to the most worthy scholars after them as there is no room for sects in Islam - the precedents they set could be used as references which are to be continually revised according to new issues by trustworthy, wise, and knowledgeable scholars of the age in accordance with the Book of Allah :swt:

The fact that so many people are still following the rulings of dead judges without budging is a sign of intellectual stagnation and lack of trust in the opinions of current scholars.

The fact that Allah's final messenger Muhammad :saws: advised us in his farewell speech to refer to the book of Allah :swt: , and that current scholars have a rich amount of combined literature with sifting abilities, consisting of Quran, the interpretations of Allah's messenger Muhammad :saws: the four respected scholars, other respected scholars, history, and current findings - is sufficient to tell us that the Muslim ummah has higher goals to reach.


Al-Baqarah 2:134

تِلْكَ أُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْۖ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَكُم مَّا كَسَبْتُمْۖ وَلَا تُسْـَٔلُونَ عَمَّا كَانُوا۟ يَعْمَلُونَ

English - Yusuf Ali

That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case!

English - Sahih International

That was a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do.

-------


Al-An'am 6:159

إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ فَرَّقُوا۟ دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُوا۟ شِيَعًا لَّسْتَ مِنْهُمْ فِى شَىْءٍۚ إِنَّمَآ أَمْرُهُمْ إِلَى ٱللَّهِ ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا كَانُوا۟ يَفْعَلُونَ

English - Yusuf Ali

As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.

English - Sahih International

Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do.

------

There is a difference between - shi'a imaam Abu Hanifa, Shi'a imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, shi'a imaam Abu Maalik, shi'a imaam Ash-Shaafi' - and i am Muslim li Allah :swt: and i hear and obey in accordance to obedience of Allah :swt:

Islam means Submission to Allah :swt: and attainment of peace from Him.

There is the question of baya' and sami'na wa atua'na, and these cannot be given to dead people, but rather to people who are alive and worthy of obedience in Allah's cause - ul al amr min kum - who legislate wisely for Allah's sake.


If you can't find anyone - then weep to Allah :swt: for the weak situation and do what you can to rectify it whilst knowing that obedience is due to Allah :swt: and that the judgement and scales are His.

But please be careful of attempting to give your baya' to a dead body who cannot hear your calls now, and who will reject your baya' to him on the day of judgement, and if you obey ANY ruling whether of past or present, do it only in obedience to Allah :swt: as His bondman/woman and not as a bondman/woman held in bounds by the respected dead imaams.

كتاب الصلاة 2 Prayer (Kitab Al-Salat)
(240)Chapter: Praying In Sandals(91) باب الصَّلاَةِ فِي النَّعْلِ

Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri:

While the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was leading his Companions in prayer, he took off his sandals and laid them on his left side; so when the people saw this, they removed their sandals. When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) finished his prayer, he asked: What made you remove your sandals? The replied: We saw you remove your sandals, so we removed our sandals.
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) then said: Gabriel came to me and informed me that there was filth in them. When any of you comes to the mosque, he should see; if he finds filth on his sandals, he should wipe it off and pray in them.

حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَبِي نَعَامَةَ السَّعْدِيِّ، عَنْ أَبِي نَضْرَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ، قَالَ بَيْنَمَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يُصَلِّي بِأَصْحَابِهِ إِذْ خَلَعَ نَعْلَيْهِ فَوَضَعَهُمَا عَنْ يَسَارِهِ فَلَمَّا رَأَى ذَلِكَ الْقَوْمُ أَلْقَوْا نِعَالَهُمْ فَلَمَّا قَضَى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم صَلاَتَهُ قَالَ ‏"‏ مَا حَمَلَكُمْ عَلَى إِلْقَائِكُمْ نِعَالَكُمْ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالُوا رَأَيْنَاكَ أَلْقَيْتَ نَعْلَيْكَ فَأَلْقَيْنَا نِعَالَنَا ‏.‏ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ إِنَّ جِبْرِيلَ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَتَانِي فَأَخْبَرَنِي أَنَّ فِيهِمَا قَذَرًا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَقَالَ ‏"‏ إِذَا جَاءَ أَحَدُكُمْ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ فَلْيَنْظُرْ فَإِنْ رَأَى فِي نَعْلَيْهِ قَذَرًا أَوْ أَذًى فَلْيَمْسَحْهُ وَلْيُصَلِّ فِيهِمَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Grade : Sahih (Al-Albani) صحيح (الألباني) حكم :
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 650
In-book reference : Book 2, Hadith 260
English translation : Book 2, Hadith 650
Report Error | Share


https://sunnah.com/abudawud/2/260


The four imaams themselves saw that their ultimate pledge was to Allah :swt: Whose Hand was over the hands of the leaders to whom they gave allegiance, that is why they were sometimes made to suffer by the leaders and why imaam Ahmad was whipped - however we believe that the Prophet :saws: would pray with his right hand over his left, and that imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal only prayed with his hands down because of the physical pain he was in, so when we see people praying with their hands down, i remember the empty droning shell of Tony Blair at "saint Paul's cathedral" reciting rhyming verses that he probably didn't understand a word of as he was chanting them.
Proof from Ahadith Regarding Hand Placement

1. Sadl (laying the hands straight in the prayer) is not an action, but rather, it is the natural position of the hands while standing. This is the asl (root, origin, source)

2. The scholars have differed on the matter of qabd (grasping: holding the left hand with the right). Ibn Rushd states in Bidayat al-Mujtahid (1:137)

The reason behind their differing is that there are some ahadith narrating the way the Prophet prayed which did not mention him placing his right hand over his left, and on the other hand, it was reported that the people were ordered to do that.

As for the ahadith that Ibn Rushd is referring to, one of the most commonly cited is the hadith of Abu Humaid al-Sa’idi, which is as follows:

Muhammad ibn ‘Amir ibn ‘Atta stated: "I heard Abu Humaid al-Sa’idi talking amongst ten of the Sahabah of the Messenger of Allah. Abu Qattada who was among them spoke up and said, "I am the most knowledgeable of you about the prayer of the Messenger of Allah." They replied, "How can that be when you were not following him for a longer period, nor were you a companion of his before us?" To this Abu Qattada replied, "Yes." "Well then prove it," the others challenged. He (Abu Qattada) said, "When the Messenger of Allah stood for prayer, he raised his arms until they were level with his ears, said the takbeer and didn’t being reciting until all of his limbs had rested in their natural position. After finishing his recital, he raised his hands until they were level with his ears, said the takbeer and from there, performed the ruku’. He placed his palms on his knees and posed his back straight, neither raising his head nor lowering it . . .

This version of the hadith is narrated by Imam Ahmad in his Musnad, al-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud in their Sunan, while Imam al-Bukhari narrates a shorter version of it in his Sahih. When Abu Humaid finished his description of the prayer, they all stated, "You are truthful, this is the way he used to pray."

The statement of Abu Qattada that, "[A]nd didn’t being reciting until all of his limbs had rested in their natural position" is proof that the Prophet did not always place his right hand over his left, for this is not the natural position at which the limbs rest, rather, this is what is known as sadl. If the Prophet placed his right hand over his left in the prayer all the time, then (at least) one of the Sahabah would have objected to Abu Humaid’s failure to report that in his narration

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/yadain.htm
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-30-2019, 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by adil1992
Assalamualaikum,

The four madhabs are great scholars of Islam. May Allah reward them for their dedication in helping the Islamic world.

I was born a Muslim but wasn't raised in a family that is practicing so I went away from the deen for majority of my life and only till quite recently I have been back on the right path, I'm not perfect but I try my best.

majority of mosque near me are deobandi ( i live in london ) and they advise to follow the teachings of abu hanifah strictly and stick to that. Whilst I understand for a laymen, it is almost possible for us to interpret hadiths and Qur'an in a way educated scholars can so we have to rely on the teachings of a respected madhab. My question is, to
stricly follow one madhab is it permissible?

In my humble opinion I am of the view that you should have a
a trusted scholar that you go for Islamic views but to completely stick to one is surely wrong ? The great imams like abu hanifa were only humans and could of made errors so to blindly follow them is wrong.

In no way am I implying that Indivduals should go and interpret Qur'an and hadiths and issue themselves "fatwas" that is completely wrong for a laymen and this one of the reasons why we have so much extremism in islam - but surely there has to be a middle ground where both sides can meet in which you follow your respected madhab but in issues you feel they are wrong , you can go with another view, but only if you belive sincerely that the view is correct. I'm seeing with my own eyes that Indivduals have doubts over a view of a madhab but because of their strict following of a madhab they are not willing to take another view regardless of the evidence.

I'm sure this is a topic most people have been through and have different views.
:sl:

Here is my take on this, we can agree to disagree with respect.

We should follow Quran and Sunnah. No where Quran or Sunnah says to follow any madhab. Ask yourself a question, were companions of Prophet Muhammad PBUH Hanfi or Shafi?
We should all call ourselves Muslims ( one who submits to God's will) and not Hanfi or Shaafi or Maaliki etc..

If one has little or no understanding of the religion then they can stick to any one of the Imam's and rely on their interpretation of the religion. But problem with this is that if someone starts following Hanfi Madhab for example, he/she starts thinking Hanfi are the only righteous people and Shafi or Maliki or Hambali are misguided. That creates division among Muslims who have little knowledge. Some times so called scholars for a particular madhab also give fatwas to prove that followers of other madhabs are misguided and praying behind them is not valid. I have experienced this first hand.

What many fail to understand is that a madhab is only understanding from a particular religious scholar's point of view. That scholar could be right or wrong in his understanding. We can't call followers of other madhab's non believers because they are also following someone who has spent his entire life in interpreting Islamic jurisprudence. We have no authority to call followers of other madhab non-Muslims. Leave the matters of disagreement to Allah.

It is compulsory for everyone of us to get education on Islamic matters. There is no excuse for someone to say that I cant pray because I don't know how to pray. One must learn how to pray. Similarly, one must try to learn anything which has an impact on their understanding of the religion. For example, I am of the opinion that learning Arabic is compulsory on every Muslim to understand Quran or at least one should try to learn Quranic Arabic. We know the importance of life after death and we know life after death is eternal, hence we put so much effort is learning for a temporary life but don't try to learn our beautiful religion.

One can consult with scholars who one thinks are righteous and on the right path and one can follow what these scholars do but one should always ask for a reference from hadith and Quran. If they can't provide any reference for their actions from Quran, then keep looking and searching until you find what satisfies your heart and mind. This way Allah will reward our struggle in seeking the knowledge and even if the way we do things is wrong but it will not be a sin because we did what we could based on our understanding and under the guidance of righteous scholars. If one ends up finding the right path and follow it as well then the reward will be twice.

:wa:
Reply

فصيح الياسين
07-30-2019, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
:sl:

Here is my take on this, we can agree to disagree with respect.

We should follow Quran and Sunnah. No where Quran or Sunnah says to follow any madhab. Ask yourself a question, were companions of Prophet Muhammad PBUH Hanfi or Shafi?
We should all call ourselves Muslims ( one who submits to God's will) and not Hanfi or Shaafi or Maaliki etc..

If one has little or no understanding of the religion then they can stick to any one of the Imam's and rely on their interpretation of the religion. But problem with this is that if someone starts following Hanfi Madhab for example, he/she starts thinking Hanfi are the only righteous people and Shafi or Maliki or Hambali are misguided. That creates division among Muslims who have little knowledge. Some times so called scholars for a particular madhab also give fatwas to prove that followers of other madhabs are misguided and praying behind them is not valid. I have experienced this first hand.

What many fail to understand is that a madhab is only understanding from a particular religious scholar's point of view. That scholar could be right or wrong in his understanding. We can't call followers of other madhab's non believers because they are also following someone who has spent his entire life in interpreting Islamic jurisprudence. We have no authority to call followers of other madhab non-Muslims. Leave the matters of disagreement to Allah.

It is compulsory for everyone of us to get education on Islamic matters. There is no excuse for someone to say that I cant pray because I don't know how to pray. One must learn how to pray. Similarly, one must try to learn anything which has an impact on their understanding of the religion. For example, I am of the opinion that learning Arabic is compulsory on every Muslim to understand Quran or at least one should try to learn Quranic Arabic. We know the importance of life after death and we know life after death is eternal, hence we put so much effort is learning for a temporary life but don't try to learn our beautiful religion.

One can consult with scholars who one thinks are righteous and on the right path and one can follow what these scholars do but one should always ask for a reference from hadith and Quran. If they can't provide any reference for their actions from Quran, then keep looking and searching until you find what satisfies your heart and mind. This way Allah will reward our struggle in seeking the knowledge and even if the way we do things is wrong but it will not be a sin because we did what we could based on our understanding and under the guidance of righteous scholars. If one ends up finding the right path and follow it as well then the reward will be twice.

:wa:
Brother its deviating speech
Because brain we all have the same but understanding differs. Some are most high some dull and some in between them

No one have such power create principles and terminology to obtain the laws. But salaf were chosen for it.


We always says four madhab four madhab and followe or do not follow. There are more than 10 imams but these 4 are famous and have efficient principles and now these became .

I ask from those who says we should not follow them that not in jurisprudence. But there is not imams in jurisprudence only.

In creed we follow maturidy or ashari. Which is complesery for ahle sunnah.

In terminology of pholisphy. Abu ali seena and bihari and taftah zani we obey but no one say we should not follow them.

In terminology of arabic vocabulary we obey imam sebway or teacher of sebway khalil or student of khalil that is khalil also or friend of sebway, khalil or zanjani or zee mah shari or qazi bizaavi or rizi or imam farrah. After that either kofa imams or basra people we must follow with their principles. If not no one can translate hadith or quran.

In terminology of arabic eloquence we follow imam sakakki or taftah zani or another one. If these not then one can not understand the true meaning and miracle of quran which most people don't know how quran is miracle

In hadith terminolgy in narrators one must obey the narrator principles like how to posses and from whom to be possessed and who is good in narration and bad it and who is liar. If not then all hadith are gone from muslim hands.

In quran narration 7 qirat so 7 imams then every one have 3 students in which 2 are famous and one is abberant so up to 21 imam these become. If one not follow then quran won't reach.

I am not telling you dear brother but to everyone who keep saying we must not follow imams we have to follow quran even in following them they are obeying all above imams, and jurisprudence are not different from them as through these principles and added with jurisprudence principles laws are created.

If one do follow only quran and sunnah then must start his own principles to reach there. Verly no man have such power to do work of thousand men
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-30-2019, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by فصيح الياسين
Brother its deviating speech
Because brain we all have the same but understanding differs. Some are most high some dull and some in between them

No one have such power create principles and terminology to obtain the laws. But salaf were chosen for it.


We always says four madhab four madhab and followe or do not follow. There are more than 10 imams but these 4 are famous and have efficient principles and now these became .

I ask from those who says we should not follow them that not in jurisprudence. But there is not imams in jurisprudence only.

In creed we follow maturidy or ashari. Which is complesery for ahle sunnah.

In terminology of pholisphy. Abu ali seena and bihari and taftah zani we obey but no one say we should not follow them.

In terminology of arabic vocabulary we obey imam sebway or teacher of sebway khalil or student of khalil that is khalil also or friend of sebway, khalil or zanjani or zee mah shari or qazi bizaavi or rizi or imam farrah. After that either kofa imams or basra people we must follow with their principles. If not no one can translate hadith or quran.

In terminology of arabic eloquence we follow imam sakakki or taftah zani or another one. If these not then one can not understand the true meaning and miracle of quran which most people don't know how quran is miracle

In hadith terminolgy in narrators one must obey the narrator principles like how to posses and from whom to be possessed and who is good in narration and bad it and who is liar. If not then all hadith are gone from muslim hands.

In quran narration 7 qirat so 7 imams then every one have 3 students in which 2 are famous and one is abberant so up to 21 imam these become. If one not follow then quran won't reach.

I am not telling you dear brother but to everyone who keep saying we must not follow imams we have to follow quran even in following them they are obeying all above imams, and jurisprudence are not different from them as through these principles and added with jurisprudence principles laws are created.

If one do follow only quran and sunnah then must start his own principles to reach there. Verly no man have such power to do work of thousand men
:sl:

First of all, it does not look like you read my post or you tried to understand it.
Second, where does Quran or Sunnah says to follow one of the madhab? Please give me a single reference to support you view....
Third, should we look into what these Imam's said about their own rulings and interpretations of Islamic laws?

Imam Abu Haneefah

He said: “It is not permissible for anyone to follow what we say if they do not know where we got it from.”

According to another report he said: “It is haraam for the one who does not know my evidence to issue a fatwa based on my words.”

and he said: “woe be to you Ya’qoob. Do not write down everything you hear from me, for surely I may hold an opinion today and leave it tomorrow, hold another tomorrow and leave it the day after”

And he said: “If I say something that goes against the Book of Allah or the report of the Messenger PBUH, then ignore what I say.”

He also said: “if a hadeeth is found to be authentic, that is my madhab”

Imam Malik

He said: “I am only human, sometimes I make mistakes and sometimes I get things right. Look at my opinion and whatever is in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, take it, and whatever is not in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, ignore it.”

And he said: “There is no one after the Prophet Muhammad PBUH whose words cannot be taken or left, apart from the Prophet Muhammad PBUH himself.

Imam al-Shafi’ee

He said: “There is no one who will not be unaware of some of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah PBUH. Whatever I say or whatever guidelines I establish, if there is a report from the Messenger of Allah PBUH which is different to what I said, then what matters is what the Messenger of Allah said, and that is my opinion.”

According to al-Haakim, Imaam Shafi’ee said:

“There is no one among us who has not had a sunnah of Allah's messenger PBUH elude him or have one slip his mind; so no matter what rulings I have made or fundamental principles I have proposed, there will be in them things contrary to the rulings of Allah's messenger PBUH. Therefore, the correct ruling is according to what Allah's messenger PBUH said, and that is my ruling.”

He also said: “The Muslims (of my time) were of a unanimous opinion that one who comes across an authentic sunnah of Allah's messenger PBUH is not allowed to disregard it in favor of someone else’s opinion.”

Al-Haakim also collected from Imaam ash-Shafi’ee a similar statement to that of Imaam Abu Haneefah, that being “If a hadeeth is found to be sahih, it is my madhab.”

He also said: “If I say something then compare it to the Book of Allah and the sunnah of His messenger PBUH and if it agrees with them, then accept it and that which goes against them, then reject it and throw my saying against the wall!”

Imaam an-Nawawi in Tahdheeb al-Asma wa’l-Lughaat mentioned under the biography of Imaam Shafi’ee: “…then he travelled to al-‘Iraq where he spread the knowledge of hadeeth and he established the madhab of its people – that is the madhab of the Ahl al-Hadeeth.”

Imam Ahmad

Imam Ahmad said: “Do not follow me blindly and do not follow Maalik or al-Shafi’ee or al-Awzaa’i or ath-Thawri blindly. Learn from where they learned.”

And he said: “The opinion of al-Awzaa’i and the opinion of Maalik and the opinion of Abu Haneefah are all mere conjecture and it is all the same to me. Rather evidence is to be found in the reports – i.e., in the shar’i evidence.”

Ibn Abdul-Barr stated in Jaami’Bayaan al-‘ilm that, “There are no scholars from this ummah to whom a hadeeth of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH was established and then they rejected it… If they had done so, their trustworthiness would have been in question, let alone them being taken as Imams, since doing so (rejecting hadeeth) necessitates sinfulness.”

Shaykhul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah said: “No one has to blindly follow any particular man in all that he enjoins or forbids or recommends, apart from the Messenger of Allah PBUH. The Muslims should always refer their questions to the Muslim scholars, following this one sometimes and that one sometimes. If the follower decides to follow the view of an imam with regard to a particular matter which he thinks is better for his religious commitment or is more correct etc, that is permissible according to the majority of Muslim scholars, and neither Abu Haneefah, Maalik, al- Shafi’ee or Ahmad said that this was forbidden.”

Did I said anything different from the Imam's you want to follow blindly?
Does not Islam ask to seek knowledge? Why can we spend our whole life in learning medial science or engineering but can't find time to learn our own religion?
Do Islam ask us to have a blind faith? Yes we can have blind faith when it comes to Quran and Sahih Hadith but for anything else we are supposed to do our own research and follow what seems right and in accordance with the teachings of Quran and Sahih Hadiths.

May Allah guide us all to accept and follow the truth. Ameen!

:wa:

Reply

Abz2000
07-30-2019, 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
.....

- - - Updated - - -



Proof from Ahadith Regarding Hand Placement

1. Sadl (laying the hands straight in the prayer) is not an action, but rather, it is the natural position of the hands while standing. This is the asl (root, origin, source)

2. The scholars have differed on the matter of qabd (grasping: holding the left hand with the right). Ibn Rushd states in Bidayat al-Mujtahid (1:137)

The reason behind their differing is that there are some ahadith narrating the way the Prophet prayed which did not mention him placing his right hand over his left, and on the other hand, it was reported that the people were ordered to do that.

As for the ahadith that Ibn Rushd is referring to, one of the most commonly cited is the hadith of Abu Humaid al-Sa’idi, which is as follows:

Muhammad ibn ‘Amir ibn ‘Atta stated: "I heard Abu Humaid al-Sa’idi talking amongst ten of the Sahabah of the Messenger of Allah. Abu Qattada who was among them spoke up and said, "I am the most knowledgeable of you about the prayer of the Messenger of Allah." They replied, "How can that be when you were not following him for a longer period, nor were you a companion of his before us?" To this Abu Qattada replied, "Yes." "Well then prove it," the others challenged. He (Abu Qattada) said, "When the Messenger of Allah stood for prayer, he raised his arms until they were level with his ears, said the takbeer and didn’t being reciting until all of his limbs had rested in their natural position. After finishing his recital, he raised his hands until they were level with his ears, said the takbeer and from there, performed the ruku’. He placed his palms on his knees and posed his back straight, neither raising his head nor lowering it . . .

This version of the hadith is narrated by Imam Ahmad in his Musnad, al-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud in their Sunan, while Imam al-Bukhari narrates a shorter version of it in his Sahih. When Abu Humaid finished his description of the prayer, they all stated, "You are truthful, this is the way he used to pray."

The statement of Abu Qattada that, "[A]nd didn’t being reciting until all of his limbs had rested in their natural position" is proof that the Prophet did not always place his right hand over his left, for this is not the natural position at which the limbs rest, rather, this is what is known as sadl. If the Prophet placed his right hand over his left in the prayer all the time, then (at least) one of the Sahabah would have objected to Abu Humaid’s failure to report that in his narration

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/yadain.htm
The placing the right hand over the left is the natural position of prayer, and it can therefore easily go without saying. A simple reading of the multiple ahadith regarding the placing of the hands in view of the the hadith quoted above should provide the details needed to come to such a simple conclusion.

The claim that - the followers of imam ahmad prayed with their hands down in soldiarity with him and as a political statement to the caliph most likely decided by the wise from amongst them who saw it as the best course to take in order to show their support of him with a silent statement due to his physically not being able to raise his arms as a result of being tortured - is a well established and believable historical claim, using a "fill in the blanks" method to interpret ahadith in order to justify doing it now despite the caliph of the time being dead -and despite strong and reliable ahadith with more complete and minute details being available won't help the practitioners of the hands down method much.
Reply

Ahmed.
07-30-2019, 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
The placing the right hand over the left is the natural position of prayer, and it can therefore easily go without saying. A simple reading of the multiple ahadith regarding the placing of the hands in view of the the hadith quoted above should provide the details needed to come to such a simple conclusion.

The claim that - the followers of imam ahmad prayed with their hands down in soldiarity with him and as a political statement to the caliph most likely decided by the wise from amongst them who saw it as the best course to take in order to show their support of him with a silent statement due to his physically not being able to raise his arms as a result of being tortured - is a well established and believable historical claim, using a "fill in the blanks" method to interpret ahadith in order to justify doing it now despite the caliph of the time being dead -and despite strong and reliable ahadith with more complete and minute details being available won't help the practitioners of the hands down method much.
That weren't a proper translation. See below link. The proper translation is 'until each bone became settled in it's place straightly'.

And it was what they saw the Prophet (saw) doing and not Imam Ahmed or Malik.

This is a Maliki madhab opinion

Google:

The Maaliki Argument for not Clasping the Hands in Salat - Masud.co.uk
Reply

Ahmed.
07-30-2019, 10:42 PM
The slogan 'I follow Quran and sahih hadith' appeals to many Muslims nowadays, however what they don't understand is that our classical Imams done the same and their judgement of which hadith is more sahih than another or which hadith applies in a ruling is far better than the modern scholars' judgement.

Here is an explanation:

Just as the mujtahid Imam is not like us in his command of the Qur’an and hadith evidence and the principles needed to join between it and infer rulings from it, so too he is not like us in the way he judges the authenticity of hadiths. If a person who is not a hadith specialist needs to rate a hadith, he will usually want to know if it appears, for example, in Sahih al-Bukhari, or Sahih Muslim, or if some hadith scholar has declared it to be sahih or hasan. A mujtahid does not do this.

Rather, he reaches an independent judgment as to whether a particular hadith is truly from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) through his own knowledge of hadith narrators and the sciences of hadith, and not from taqlid or "following the opinion of another hadith scholar."

It is thus not necessarily an evidence against the positions of a mujtahid that Bukhari, or Muslim, or whoever, has accepted a hadith that contradicts the mujtahid’s evidence. Why? Because among hadith scholars, the reliability rating of individual narrators in hadith chains of transmission are disagreed about and therefore hadiths are disagreed about in the same manner that particular questions of fiqh are disagreed about among the scholars of fiqh. Like the schools of fiqh, the extent of this disagreement is relatively small in relation to the whole, but one should remember that it does exist.

Because a mujtahid scholar is not bound to accept another scholar’s ijtihad regarding a particular hadith, the ijtihad of a hadith specialist of our own time that, for example, a hadith is weak (da‘if), is not necessarily an evidence against the ijtihad of a previous mujtahid that the hadith is acceptable. This is particularly true in the present day, when specialists in hadith are not at the level of their predecessors in either knowledge of hadith sciences, or memorization of hadiths.

Read on:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/madhhabstlk.htm

- - - Updated - - -

Ok guys this is a contentious topic so this will be my last post

I'll urge anyone (especially the OP) to read the following online book; it explains all the usual contentions by opposers and will answer any question/query on this issue:

https://central-mosque.com/index.php...-a-madhab.html

Reply

Ümit
07-31-2019, 07:44 AM
@Ahmed :
I did not understand the complete post, because it goes way beyond my knowledge and ability to understand, but I totally agree with the first section:

Originally Posted by Ahmed.
The slogan 'I follow Quran and sahih hadith' appeals to many Muslims nowadays, however what they don't understand is that our classical Imams done the same and their judgement of which hadith is more sahih than another or which hadith applies in a ruling is far better than the modern scholars' judgement.
Indeed the earlier scholars were also following the Quraan and sahih hadith.

I'd rather trust either one of the four madhabi scholars over any other modern scholars.

They already paved the road for us so that we can follow it easily...why then would we make our lives difficult by searching our own way with the chance of doing things wrong or adding innovations and stuff?

During my last friday prayer, our imam told us a story about a community who were very keen on hygiene. everything were as clean as possible, even the individuals paid attention to every detail. they even had aprons hanging in the toilet area you could use during wudu so that wudu water would not splash up onto your clothes.

at first sight nothing wrong with it...but then he discovered that the use of these aprons during wudu was kinda obligated...
This is a form of adding innovation to religion.

One should not exaggerate.
Reply

eesa the kiwi
07-31-2019, 08:13 AM
Asalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatu

I disagree with blind following of a madhab. If Abu bakr and umar radiallaho anhumma were to contradict rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam then to follow them would be error. What about those less than them

I'm not saying the madhabs should be rejected either subhanAllah there has been huge contributions to the sciences of Islam from scholars of the madhabs

My issue is when people reject authentic hadith because according to them my imam (subhanAllah often it's less than that rather its because a contemporary scholar who follows the madhab of my imam) said so. This is a very dangerous attitude

The deen isn't rocket science I'm not saying laymen should attempt to derive fiqhi rulings but refer to the scholars of Islam and try seek the position with the strongest daleel wether it comes from within your own madhab or one of the others or even outside

One of my favorite scholars to listen to is Abdul Rahman Hasan he was taught mainly in shafi fiqh but isnt afraid to teach from other madhabs if there position is stronger you can find his YouTube channel here inshaAllah you will benefit

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmT...M7V_g7uJVuBAMw
Reply

Ümit
07-31-2019, 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
Asalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatu

I disagree with blind following of a madhab. If Abu bakr and umar radiallaho anhumma were to contradict rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam then to follow them would be error. What about those less than them

I'm not saying the madhabs should be rejected either subhanAllah there has been huge contributions to the sciences of Islam from scholars of the madhabs

My issue is when people reject authentic hadith because according to them my imam (subhanAllah often it's less than that rather its because a contemporary scholar who follows the madhab of my imam) said so. This is a very dangerous attitude

The deen isn't rocket science I'm not saying laymen should attempt to derive fiqhi rulings but refer to the scholars of Islam and try seek the position with the strongest daleel wether it comes from within your own madhab or one of the others or even outside

One of my favorite scholars to listen to is Abdul Rahman Hasan he was taught mainly in shafi fiqh but isnt afraid to teach from other madhabs if there position is stronger you can find his YouTube channel here inshaAllah you will benefit

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmT...M7V_g7uJVuBAMw
Sorry but, IMHO you are mixing up things.

First, no one ever spoke about blind following. Following something or someone blind is never a good thing...
Second, you are talking about someones imam following some madhab. this has nothing to do with madhab but with the imam who is rejecting a certain saheeh hadith.
I do not think that a certain madhab school would reject saheeh hadeeths just like that.
Third, you would like to seek the position with the strongest daleel. this job is already done by the madhabs.
Fourth, Abdul Rahman teaching stuff from other madhabs...having knowledge of other madhabs besides your own is a sign how wise that man is. seeing the total picture and knowing which madhabs focusses on what and why gives that man the ability to make better decisions.
Reply

فصيح الياسين
07-31-2019, 11:13 AM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
:sl:

First of all, it does not look like you read my post or you tried to understand it.
Second, where does Quran or Sunnah says to follow one of the madhab? Please give me a single reference to support you view....
Third, should we look into what these Imam's said about their own rulings and interpretations of Islamic laws?

Imam Abu Haneefah

He said: “It is not permissible for anyone to follow what we say if they do not know where we got it from.”

According to another report he said: “It is haraam for the one who does not know my evidence to issue a fatwa based on my words.”

and he said: “woe be to you Ya’qoob. Do not write down everything you hear from me, for surely I may hold an opinion today and leave it tomorrow, hold another tomorrow and leave it the day after”

And he said: “If I say something that goes against the Book of Allah or the report of the Messenger PBUH, then ignore what I say.”

He also said: “if a hadeeth is found to be authentic, that is my madhab”

Imam Malik

He said: “I am only human, sometimes I make mistakes and sometimes I get things right. Look at my opinion and whatever is in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, take it, and whatever is not in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, ignore it.”

And he said: “There is no one after the Prophet Muhammad PBUH whose words cannot be taken or left, apart from the Prophet Muhammad PBUH himself.

Imam al-Shafi’ee

He said: “There is no one who will not be unaware of some of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah PBUH. Whatever I say or whatever guidelines I establish, if there is a report from the Messenger of Allah PBUH which is different to what I said, then what matters is what the Messenger of Allah said, and that is my opinion.”

According to al-Haakim, Imaam Shafi’ee said:

“There is no one among us who has not had a sunnah of Allah's messenger PBUH elude him or have one slip his mind; so no matter what rulings I have made or fundamental principles I have proposed, there will be in them things contrary to the rulings of Allah's messenger PBUH. Therefore, the correct ruling is according to what Allah's messenger PBUH said, and that is my ruling.”

He also said: “The Muslims (of my time) were of a unanimous opinion that one who comes across an authentic sunnah of Allah's messenger PBUH is not allowed to disregard it in favor of someone else’s opinion.”

Al-Haakim also collected from Imaam ash-Shafi’ee a similar statement to that of Imaam Abu Haneefah, that being “If a hadeeth is found to be sahih, it is my madhab.”

He also said: “If I say something then compare it to the Book of Allah and the sunnah of His messenger PBUH and if it agrees with them, then accept it and that which goes against them, then reject it and throw my saying against the wall!”

Imaam an-Nawawi in Tahdheeb al-Asma wa’l-Lughaat mentioned under the biography of Imaam Shafi’ee: “…then he travelled to al-‘Iraq where he spread the knowledge of hadeeth and he established the madhab of its people – that is the madhab of the Ahl al-Hadeeth.”

Imam Ahmad

Imam Ahmad said: “Do not follow me blindly and do not follow Maalik or al-Shafi’ee or al-Awzaa’i or ath-Thawri blindly. Learn from where they learned.”

And he said: “The opinion of al-Awzaa’i and the opinion of Maalik and the opinion of Abu Haneefah are all mere conjecture and it is all the same to me. Rather evidence is to be found in the reports – i.e., in the shar’i evidence.”

Ibn Abdul-Barr stated in Jaami’Bayaan al-‘ilm that, “There are no scholars from this ummah to whom a hadeeth of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH was established and then they rejected it… If they had done so, their trustworthiness would have been in question, let alone them being taken as Imams, since doing so (rejecting hadeeth) necessitates sinfulness.”

Shaykhul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah said: “No one has to blindly follow any particular man in all that he enjoins or forbids or recommends, apart from the Messenger of Allah PBUH. The Muslims should always refer their questions to the Muslim scholars, following this one sometimes and that one sometimes. If the follower decides to follow the view of an imam with regard to a particular matter which he thinks is better for his religious commitment or is more correct etc, that is permissible according to the majority of Muslim scholars, and neither Abu Haneefah, Maalik, al- Shafi’ee or Ahmad said that this was forbidden.”

Did I said anything different from the Imam's you want to follow blindly?
Does not Islam ask to seek knowledge? Why can we spend our whole life in learning medial science or engineering but can't find time to learn our own religion?
Do Islam ask us to have a blind faith? Yes we can have blind faith when it comes to Quran and Sahih Hadith but for anything else we are supposed to do our own research and follow what seems right and in accordance with the teachings of Quran and Sahih Hadiths.

May Allah guide us all to accept and follow the truth. Ameen!

:wa:

Walaikumasalam
Dear brother my bad. I must have wrote it. Well let me explain. I took your one sentence of follow quran and sunnah and thats why at the end i wrote that I AM NOT SAYING TO YOU but to those who keep accusing that we must not follow imams

But as you asked proof from quran so let allah help me to make it easy and you to understand. Because i know the terminology in arabic and translating it to English disrupt the exact term meanings.
Like taqleed of imam is wajib because allah said in quran واطيعوا الله و رسوله now it is hasr in obediance to allah and rasool as hasr is of two types haqiqi and and izafi. If one said i follow imam and take hasr haqiqi then its obligations that to exclude who ever without imam is like companion and prophet. So he is out of islam and that is called following one person of himself i.e taqleed shaksi

Another is izafi that a person obey in such a manner that following him make it to the person whose obediance is obligated and none of companions and prophet obediance is excluded and that is taqleed no'ee min hisu izafah. And no one saying allah is one because imam said but on the contraray in a particular issues which man cannot take the exact meaning like about time period of divorced is to obey his principles

Now dear brother if i translate the terminlogy to english then hasr means castle and haqiqi mean itself and izafi means pairing. Which make all the paragraph a useless.

Second what aima said is تورعا i.e abstain to not get involved in taqleed shaksi and people start saying imam said r
Than prophet said.
Because in their life time they kept giving fatwas. To people so people make do act on it. Or else they never issue any fatwas
And also these are not imam these are school but named due to their principles there are millions of scholar passed in it by obtaining the principal and keep applying for new issues which keep coming

Third is imam tamiah also was hanbali. And what he said was due to principle of imam ahmad that a man can choose obeying or do your own that in particular issues.

While schools of shafi and malik and abu haneefa said its qail bil fasl. Mean take some from one and take another thing from another.

So sticking to imam is best and thats why obligatory for those who cannot create their own principles to take out orders from issues like me

Now compulsory question if we belive that following imam is not in quran and hadith then why do we follow imams of eloquence and hadith and quran narrator and most important one the translating of arabic's principle imams even in them is zee mah shari who is mutazilli and false creed
If not to obey imams then not these one

If obey these imams so must the jurisprudence imams


Brother remember we are muslims and i love you due to this. and we also must share knowledge I DONT KEEP ANY GRUDGE FOR YOU. Thus i said what i have. If any word except terminologies are unclear or you want to have your proof against it please share i will read cheerfully. But before writing your proofs first. breake my evidences or proofs and then show yours

Assalamoaliakum
Reply

Ahmed.
07-31-2019, 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by Ümit
@Ahmed :
I did not understand the complete post, because it goes way beyond my knowledge and ability to understand, but I totally agree with the first section:



Indeed the earlier scholars were also following the Quraan and sahih hadith.

I'd rather trust either one of the four madhabi scholars over any other modern scholars.

They already paved the road for us so that we can follow it easily...why then would we make our lives difficult by searching our own way with the chance of doing things wrong or adding innovations and stuff?

During my last friday prayer, our imam told us a story about a community who were very keen on hygiene. everything were as clean as possible, even the individuals paid attention to every detail. they even had aprons hanging in the toilet area you could use during wudu so that wudu water would not splash up onto your clothes.

at first sight nothing wrong with it...but then he discovered that the use of these aprons during wudu was kinda obligated...
This is a form of adding innovation to religion.

One should not exaggerate.
That article basically meant that when modern scholars say such and such a hadith of a madhabi ruling is weak and there is a sahih hadith that changes the ruling, they say it based on not their understanding of hadiths (as they are not hadith scholars) but they say it based on someone else's, like Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim etc

And since an Imam is to adhere to his own understanding, other hadith scholars' opinions or those who base their understanding on other hadith scholars' opinions does not make their hadith weak; it's just the formers' opinion

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
Asalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatu

I disagree with blind following of a madhab. If Abu bakr and umar radiallaho anhumma were to contradict rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam then to follow them would be error. What about those less than them

I'm not saying the madhabs should be rejected either subhanAllah there has been huge contributions to the sciences of Islam from scholars of the madhabs

My issue is when people reject authentic hadith because according to them my imam (subhanAllah often it's less than that rather its because a contemporary scholar who follows the madhab of my imam) said so. This is a very dangerous attitude

The deen isn't rocket science I'm not saying laymen should attempt to derive fiqhi rulings but refer to the scholars of Islam and try seek the position with the strongest daleel wether it comes from within your own madhab or one of the others or even outside

One of my favorite scholars to listen to is Abdul Rahman Hasan he was taught mainly in shafi fiqh but isnt afraid to teach from other madhabs if there position is stronger you can find his YouTube channel here inshaAllah you will benefit

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmT...M7V_g7uJVuBAMw
:sl:

This is a common misunderstanding amongst la-madhabis that madhabi's follow blindly.Were the four Imams and their students blind? If someone leads with a torch and others follow then the others understand they are following the guy with the torch

Now if we interpret blind following as following a person who's in the dark, then surely the 'scholars' that are far removed from the enlightened age of Islam and have far less knowledge than our salaf, I.e. the modern 'scholars' of today will be the blind one's :) so the blind following tag will suit the la-madhabis who base their understanding of Quran and hadith on the guidance of those scholars, more than those who follow the more enlightened Imams! :)
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-31-2019, 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by فصيح الياسين
Walaikumasalam
Dear brother my bad. I must have wrote it. Well let me explain. I took your one sentence of follow quran and sunnah and thats why at the end i wrote that I AM NOT SAYING TO YOU but to those who keep accusing that we must not follow imams

But as you asked proof from quran so let allah help me to make it easy and you to understand. Because i know the terminology in arabic and translating it to English disrupt the exact term meanings.
Like taqleed of imam is wajib because allah said in quran واطيعوا الله و رسوله now it is hasr in obediance to allah and rasool as hasr is of two types haqiqi and and izafi. If one said i follow imam and take hasr haqiqi then its obligations that to exclude who ever without imam is like companion and prophet. So he is out of islam and that is called following one person of himself i.e taqleed shaksi

Another is izafi that a person obey in such a manner that following him make it to the person whose obediance is obligated and none of companions and prophet obediance is excluded and that is taqleed no'ee min hisu izafah. And no one saying allah is one because imam said but on the contraray in a particular issues which man cannot take the exact meaning like about time period of divorced is to obey his principles

Now dear brother if i translate the terminlogy to english then hasr means castle and haqiqi mean itself and izafi means pairing. Which make all the paragraph a useless.

Second what aima said is تورعا i.e abstain to not get involved in taqleed shaksi and people start saying imam said r
Than prophet said.
Because in their life time they kept giving fatwas. To people so people make do act on it. Or else they never issue any fatwas
And also these are not imam these are school but named due to their principles there are millions of scholar passed in it by obtaining the principal and keep applying for new issues which keep coming

Third is imam tamiah also was hanbali. And what he said was due to principle of imam ahmad that a man can choose obeying or do your own that in particular issues.

While schools of shafi and malik and abu haneefa said its qail bil fasl. Mean take some from one and take another thing from another.

So sticking to imam is best and thats why obligatory for those who cannot create their own principles to take out orders from issues like me

Now compulsory question if we belive that following imam is not in quran and hadith then why do we follow imams of eloquence and hadith and quran narrator and most important one the translating of arabic's principle imams even in them is zee mah shari who is mutazilli and false creed
If not to obey imams then not these one

If obey these imams so must the jurisprudence imams


Brother remember we are muslims and i love you due to this. and we also must share knowledge I DONT KEEP ANY GRUDGE FOR YOU. Thus i said what i have. If any word except terminologies are unclear or you want to have your proof against it please share i will read cheerfully. But before writing your proofs first. breake my evidences or proofs and then show yours

Assalamoaliakum
:sl:

I love you too my brother and this love is a gift of Allah because we are Muslims.

I read your post, you started by saying Quran say " Obey Allah and His messenger." This is exactly what I am saying that we need to follow Quran and Sunnah. All four imams as I have mentioned before said explicitly that don't follow them but follow Quran and Sunnah. Imam Bukhari lived almost 200 years after Imam Abu Hanifa and was student of Imam Ahmad but he did not follow any madhab.

People who have no time to learn Islam and feel comfortable in following a particular madhab, they can do so without calling followers of other madhabs non-Muslims. This is my main point. I have often seen followers of one particular madhab will try to impose their ideology on others and call followers of other madhabs non-Muslims. That is totally wrong. What we need to understand is that all four Imams have done sincere and honest research and one can follow anyone of them and still be a Muslim. One can follow parts of one madhab and parts of other madhab and he/she will still be a Muslim. If it is too confusing, just follow your local imam and don't be judgmental of what others follow.

May Allah keep us united and make us true followers of Prophet Muhammad PBUH! Ameen!

:wa:
Reply

Ahmed.
07-31-2019, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by Ümit
Sorry but, IMHO you are mixing up things.

First, no one ever spoke about blind following. Following something or someone blind is never a good thing...
Second, you are talking about someones imam following some madhab. this has nothing to do with madhab but with the imam who is rejecting a certain saheeh hadith.
I do not think that a certain madhab school would reject saheeh hadeeths just like that.
Third, you would like to seek the position with the strongest daleel. this job is already done by the madhabs.
Fourth, Abdul Rahman teaching stuff from other madhabs...having knowledge of other madhabs besides your own is a sign how wise that man is. seeing the total picture and knowing which madhabs focusses on what and why gives that man the ability to make better decisions.
This is a misunderstanding too brother as I'm sure Shaykh AbdurRahman isn't a Mujtahid Scholar; such scholars are incredibly rare these days and hardly anyone could qualify to that extent. This is why we follow the past Mujtahidoun of the first 3 centuries.

And without being a Mujtahid one is not qualified for ijtihad so Mr AbdurRahman is making mistakes in choosing from all four madhabs as a guy who doesn't have the 'full picture' (The complete prerequisite knowledge to make accurate judgements) is bound to do

See link in my first post on this thread to see the prerequisites of mujtahid
Reply

eesa the kiwi
07-31-2019, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Ümit
Sorry but, IMHO you are mixing up things.

First, no one ever spoke about blind following. Following something or someone blind is never a good thing...
Second, you are talking about someones imam following some madhab. this has nothing to do with madhab but with the imam who is rejecting a certain saheeh hadith.
I do not think that a certain madhab school would reject saheeh hadeeths just like that.
Third, you would like to seek the position with the strongest daleel. this job is already done by the madhabs.
Fourth, Abdul Rahman teaching stuff from other madhabs...having knowledge of other madhabs besides your own is a sign how wise that man is. seeing the total picture and knowing which madhabs focusses on what and why gives that man the ability to make better decisions.
In hanafi fiqh if you touch a woman your wuddoo doesn't break in shafi fiqh it does

Rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam is narrated to have kissed his wives before prayer so in this issue the hanafi position is stronger if I am a shafi and it becomes clear to me that this the stronger position but I say well the scholars of my madhab say otherwise so I am going to ignore the ahadith

This is what I mean by blind following sorry if I wasn't clear

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Ahmed.
That article basically meant that when modern scholars say such and such a hadith of a madhabi ruling is weak and there is a sahih hadith that changes the ruling, they say it based on not their understanding of hadiths (as they are not hadith scholars) but they say it based on someone else's, like Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim etc

And since an Imam is to adhere to his own understanding, other hadith scholars' opinions or those who base their understanding on other hadith scholars' opinions does not make their hadith weak; it's just the formers' opinion

- - - Updated - - -



:sl:

This is a common misunderstanding amongst la-madhabis that madhabi's follow blindly.Were the four Imams and their students blind? If someone leads with a torch and others follow then the others understand they are following the guy with the torch

Now if we interpret blind following as following a person who's in the dark, then surely the 'scholars' that are far removed from the enlightened age of Islam and have far less knowledge than our salaf, I.e. the modern 'scholars' of today will be the blind one's :) so the blind following tag will suit the la-madhabis who base their understanding of Quran and hadith on the guidance of those scholars, more than those who follow the more enlightened Imams! :)
Do you believe you are astray if you dont follow a madhab?
Do you believe the 4 madhabs are 100% correct
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-31-2019, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
This is a misunderstanding too brother as I'm sure Shaykh AbdurRahman isn't a Mujtahid Scholar; such scholars are incredibly rare these days and hardly anyone could qualify to that extent. This is why we follow the past Mujtahidoun of the first 3 centuries.

And without being a Mujtahid one is not qualified for ijtihad so Mr AbdurRahman is making mistakes in choosing from all four madhabs as a guy who doesn't have the 'full picture' (The complete prerequisite knowledge to make accurate judgements) is bound to do

See link in my first post on this thread to see the prerequisites of mujtahid
Do you really think Allah will select Islam as Religion for entire humanity and make it so difficult that no one can understand it except by the people with in first three centuries of Islam?
Reply

Ümit
07-31-2019, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
In hanafi fiqh if you touch a woman your wuddoo doesn't break in shafi fiqh it does

Rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam is narrated to have kissed his wives before prayer so in this issue the hanafi position is stronger if I am a shafi and it becomes clear to me that this the stronger position but I say well the scholars of my madhab say otherwise so I am going to ignore the ahadith

This is what I mean by blind following sorry if I wasn't clear
İ do not have much knowledge about shafi...but you need to ask yourself...
why would imam shafi reject such an important hadeeth if it really was saheeh?
i can think of 2 reasons:
1 either that hadeeth is not as saheeh as you think it is...or
2 there is another saheeh hadeeth which describes the opposite...so he had to make a choice.

or do you think that your judgement is better than imam shafi's?

sorry if İ sound a little bit rude...not my intention to insult anyone.
Reply

Ahmed.
07-31-2019, 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi

Do you believe you are astray if you dont follow a madhab?
Do you believe the 4 madhabs are 100% correct
Yes I do and I'll tell you exactly why.

It makes sense to me that one has to be a Mujtahid scholar to perform ijtihad or even judge one opinion over another. A contemporary scholar can say that a madhabi opinion is based on weak hadith and he's seen a sahih hadith that changes that opinion but since that contemporary scholar himself is not a hadith scholar, he is just doing taqlid of someone else regarding the weakness and strength of hadiths so it's better to follow a real Mujtahid than one who tries to refute a real Mujtahid while he does taqlid of someone else.

Ijma (consensus) is a major proof in Islam and Quran and hadith says consensus can never be wrong. Also no less then 3 points in imam tahawi's aqeeda mention to adhere to consensus, and the consensus of the scholars is for non-mujtahids to follow one of the four madhabs; they say it is wajib to follow one of the 4.

Quran and hadith doesn't say to follow a madhab but it does say to obey scholarly authority and consensus.

Sahaba (ra) never followed madhabs as there was no need then. Sahaba's mother tongue was Quranic Arabic and most of them? were Mujtahids themselves. But from 3rd century there is need for madhab and there is need to adhere to only 1 from the 4 and not pick and choose from all 4 and the consensus has agreed on this

In Quran it says Allah will protect the Quran.... this promise extends to the Quranic interpretation too and thus Quran and hadith (hadith about 73 groups) indicates there will always be a group of Muslims with this correct Islam. Also they both indicate/say that it will be the majority group. The 4 madhabs and ashari/maruridi group consists of the majority and they've been there for last 1000 years, so it cannot be that all Muslims went astray and the correct Islam has just been revived by the la-madhabi salafi group

Have you read this link:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm

If not I'll reccomrnd you do as it makes very clear and good points of how following a madhab has to be the right way.

The 4 madhabs have been rectified and verified by the consensus for centuries too and they've declared them to be all correct so the argument that an individual Imam can make mistakes doesn't apply here as madhabs are the collective checked and approved works of many Imams and not just one.

PS: Regarding the 100% accuracy of the 4 madhabs; it is the foremost opinions of the madhabs (The one's that have been put out for followers to follow) that are correct. They are all correct for laymen but yet laymen just adheres to his own madhab to avoid cherry picking, but they are not all correct for Mujtahid scholars as mujtahids have to follow their own ijtihad.
Reply

eesa the kiwi
07-31-2019, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Yes I do and I'll tell you exactly why.

It makes sense to me that one has to be a Mujtahid scholar to perform ijtihad or even judge one opinion over another. A contemporary scholar can say that a madhabi opinion is based on weak hadith and he's seen a sahih hadith that changes that opinion but since that contemporary scholar himself is not a hadith scholar, he is just doing taqlid of someone else regarding the weakness and strength of hadiths so it's better to follow a real Mujtahid than one who tries to refute a real Mujtahid while he does taqlid of someone else.

Ijma (consensus) is a major proof in Islam and Quran and hadith says consensus can never be wrong. Also no less then 3 points in imam tahawi's aqeeda mention to adhere to consensus, and the consensus of the scholars is for non-mujtahids to follow one of the four madhabs; they say it is wajib to follow one of the 4.

Quran and hadith doesn't say to follow a madhab but it does say to obey scholarly authority and consensus.

Sahaba (ra) never followed madhabs as there was no need then. Sahaba's mother tongue was Quranic Arabic and most of them? were Mujtahids themselves. But from 3rd century there is need for madhab and there is need to adhere to only 1 from the 4 and not pick and choose from all 4 and the consensus has agreed on this

In Quran it says Allah will protect the Quran.... this promise extends to the Quranic interpretation too and thus Quran and hadith (hadith about 73 groups) indicates there will always be a group of Muslims with this correct Islam. Also they both indicate/say that it will be the majority group. The 4 madhabs and ashari/maruridi group consists of the majority and they've been there for last 1000 years, so it cannot be that all Muslims went astray and the correct Islam has just been revived by the la-madhabi salafi group

Have you read this link:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm

If not I'll reccomrnd you do as it makes very clear and good points of how following a madhab has to be the right way.

The 4 madhabs have been rectified and verified by the consensus for centuries too and they've declared them to be all correct so the argument that an individual Imam can make mistakes doesn't apply here as madhabs are the collective checked and approved works of many Imams and not just one.

PS: Regarding the 100% accuracy of the 4 madhabs; it is the foremost opinions of the madhabs (The one's that have been put out for followers to follow) that are correct. They are all correct for laymen but yet laymen just adheres to his own madhab to avoid cherry picking, but they are not all correct for Mujtahid scholars as mujtahids have to follow their own ijtihad.
So if not following a madhab makes one astray how do you explain the sahabah radiallaho anhum not following a madhab

You seem to have the opinion ijtihad is closed but even scholars of your own madhabs make ijtihad

Anyway I'm not trying to argue, me personally I don't follow a madhab I was taught by hanafis when I first converted but I didn't like neglecting sunnahs because my madhab said differently. I embraced Islam to follow rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam not Abu hanifa

Also the line the madhabs are 100% right is mistaken often they are contradicting each other sometimes seriously
In some madhabs if you neglect to read fatiha your Salah is invalid but in the hanbali madhab your prayer is valid

How can your prayer be valid and not valid at the same time
And let's say (I'm not commenting on the fiqh here just an example)if I'm a hanbali and it becomes clear to me the position of reading surah fatiha is correct wouldn't I be in error to miss out reciting potentially invalidating my Salah because I want to stick to one madhab

The deen isnt rocket science I'm not saying laymen should attempt to derive rulings themselves but you can benefit from scholars of other madhabs and if you believe the daleel is there you cant reject what rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam said for the teachings of fulaan

I dont buy this cherry picking argument either. I dont seek rulings based on trying to make halal haram or find some random scholar who says riba is halal because it appeals to my nafs I try follow what has the strongest evidence. Yes I may get it wrong in some fiqh issues but if you follow only 1 madhab 100 % there will be areas of fiqh your madhab got it wrong
. Have a little faith in the integrity of the muslims we aren't all seeking to follow our nafs

- - - Updated - - -

If I don't reply straight away please forgive me I'm really busy

I hope this doesn't come across as me arguing either

Barak Allah fikum inshaAllah this will be a fruitful discussion
Reply

Ahmed.
07-31-2019, 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
So if not following a madhab makes one astray how do you explain the sahabah radiallaho anhum not following a madhab

You seem to have the opinion ijtihad is closed but even scholars of your own madhabs make ijtihad

Anyway I'm not trying to argue, me personally I don't follow a madhab I was taught by hanafis when I first converted but I didn't like neglecting sunnahs because my madhab said differently. I embraced Islam to follow rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam not Abu hanifa

Also the line the madhabs are 100% right is mistaken often they are contradicting each other sometimes seriously
In some madhabs if you neglect to read fatiha your Salah is invalid but in the hanbali madhab your prayer is valid

How can your prayer be valid and not valid at the same time
And let's say (I'm not commenting on the fiqh here just an example)if I'm a hanbali and it becomes clear to me the position of reading surah fatiha is correct wouldn't I be in error to miss out reciting potentially invalidating my Salah because I want to stick to one madhab

The deen isnt rocket science I'm not saying laymen should attempt to derive rulings themselves but you can benefit from scholars of other madhabs and if you believe the daleel is there you cant reject what rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam said for the teachings of fulaan

I dont buy this cherry picking argument either. I dont seek rulings based on trying to make halal haram or find some random scholar who says riba is halal because it appeals to my nafs I try follow what has the strongest evidence. Yes I may get it wrong in some fiqh issues but if you follow only 1 madhab 100 % there will be areas of fiqh your madhab got it wrong
. Have a little faith in the integrity of the muslims we aren't all seeking to follow our nafs
The sahaba (ra) didn't need to follow madhabs as they understood Islam properly as they were living amongst the natural Quranic Arabic as well as most of them being mujtahids themselves

Its sort of like, there weren't alarm clocks in the 7th century but if a person needs it now then it becomes necessary for him to use it and it's not bidah. Similarly if there is a need for madhabs then it becomes necessary.

Following a madhab 100% doesn't increase chance of error as as I said, the 4 madhabs have been verified for centuries by consensus and they've declared them all to be correct.
.
Hadith says differences of opinions for the ummah is a mercy, this is how different and contradicting opinions can be all correct.

So for the laymen all these opinions are correct as a laymen accepts a genuine mujtahids ijtihad as sincere and valid and there is no way a laymen can know whether there is a mistake in it so all opinions of trustworthy mujtahids are as good as the others for the laymen. For the Mujtahid themselves one opinion is right and the contradicting one's are wrong as Allah has given them responsibility to follow their own understanding as they are qualified to judge and perform independent reasoning

Now regarding not reciting faatihsh behind imam, how will you as a laymen know that that is wrong? You do not have the full picture. To be able to judge yourself you need all the prerequisite knowledge of a Mujtahid scholar and you do not have that

Even if you assess all evidences that not reciting and reciting is based on, yet still this is not enough as you still do not have the insight into hadith authenticity or the sciences of the Arabic language etc etc thus in your judgement you would have left out other essential considerations.

All you would do is see what seems most acceptable or right to you based on some taqlid you will do of other scholars therefore you do not have the insight needed to really see for yourself which one is right or wrong. So the possibility of error in your judgement is great

There is ample evidence in Quran and hadith that taqlid (following of a mujtahid) is what non mujtahids should do, so therefore even if a Mujtahid did get it wrong, yet the follower gets no blame for that and his following of that opinion is right as he is only doing what Allah has commanded of him.

And from the hadith we know that even if a Mujtahid gets it wrong he is still rewarded with one qiraat.

So do you get this brother?, for imam Abu Hanifa (ra) to recite opinion would be wrong and his one is right and visa versa for other Imams, while all these opinions are all correct for the laymen as he has no way of knowing which is really wrong so he accepts them all. But he just adheres to one schools teachings as Quran says 'do not follow your desires' and cherry picking leads to following of desires.

Madhabis are the overwhelming majority of Muslims brother so this is why you too should have some faith in the majority of people in this religion you have converted to and at least read up properly on why they believe and follow what they do.

The Imams are just people who have codified the teachings of Rasulullah (,saw) into schools for us so following them Is following our Messenger Muhammad (saw)
Reply

eesa the kiwi
07-31-2019, 11:36 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
The sahaba (ra) didn't need to follow madhabs as they understood Islam properly as they were living amongst the natural Quranic Arabic as well as most of them being mujtahids themselves

Its sort of like, there weren't alarm clocks in the 7th century but if a person needs it now then it becomes necessary for him to use it and it's not bidah. Similarly if there is a need for madhabs then it becomes necessary.

Following a madhab 100% doesn't increase chance of error as as I said, the 4 madhabs have been verified for centuries by consensus and they've declared them all to be correct.
.
Hadith says differences of opinions for the ummah is a mercy, this is how different and contradicting opinions can be all correct.

So for the laymen all these opinions are correct as a laymen accepts a genuine mujtahids ijtihad as sincere and valid and there is no way a laymen can know whether there is a mistake in it so all opinions of trustworthy mujtahids are as good as the others for the laymen. For the Mujtahid themselves one opinion is right and the contradicting one's are wrong as Allah has given them responsibility to follow their own understanding as they are qualified to judge and perform independent reasoning

Now regarding not reciting faatihsh behind imam, how will you as a laymen know that that is wrong? You do not have the full picture. To be able to judge yourself you need all the prerequisite knowledge of a Mujtahid scholar and you do not have that

Even if you assess all evidences that not reciting and reciting is based on, yet still this is not enough as you still do not have the insight into hadith authenticity or the sciences of the Arabic language etc etc thus in your judgement you would have left out other essential considerations.

All you would do is see what seems most acceptable or right to you based on some taqlid you will do of other scholars therefore you do not have the insight needed to really see for yourself which one is right or wrong. So the possibility of error in your judgement is great

There is ample evidence in Quran and hadith that taqlid (following of a mujtahid) is what non mujtahids should do, so therefore even if a Mujtahid did get it wrong, yet the follower gets no blame for that and his following of that opinion is right as he is only doing what Allah has commanded of him.

And from the hadith we know that even if a Mujtahid gets it wrong he is still rewarded with one qiraat.

So do you get this brother?, for imam Abu Hanifa (ra) to recite opinion would be wrong and his one is right and visa versa for other Imams, while all these opinions are all correct for the laymen as he has no way of knowing which is really wrong so he accepts them all. But he just adheres to one schools teachings as Quran says 'do not follow your desires' and cherry picking leads to following of desires.

Madhabis are the overwhelming majority of Muslims brother so this is why you too should have some faith in the majority of people in this religion you have converted to and at least read up properly on why they believe and follow what they do.

The Imams are just people who have codified the teachings of Rasulullah (,saw) into schools for us so following them Is following our Messenger Muhammad (saw)
You seem to be regurgitating propaganda about the madhabs from the ijtihad of contemporary madhab scholars which kind of makes your argument laughable because you are complaining about contemporary ijtihad when you are following what speakers of today have been saying when the earlier followers of the madhab did otherwise. Abu hanifa said if the hadith is authentic then that is my madhab. Why aren't you following his madhab in this

Let's address a few of your points

The madhabs are all correct. Uh no, you can't be simultaneously be in wuddoo and not in wuddoo at the same time. You cant be praying a Salah that's valid and not valid at the same time

There is consensus they are all correct. Again uh no. The bickering between the madhabs has been going on for centuries to the point some scholars fromthe hanafi and shafi madhabs applied the rulings of ahlul kitab to each other

Abu hanifa issued the ruling that small amounts of certain types of alcohol were permitted in small amounts as long as you didnt get drunk. His students changed this ruling after him. If he was infallible why did he get it wrong and why did his students change his ruling

Let me ask you a question am I sinful for not following a madhab? If so where is your daleel

I have no problem with people following a madhab but dont make it seem like its obligatory.

You follow Abu hanifa I will follow rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam
Reply

eesa the kiwi
08-01-2019, 12:27 AM
Anyway I can see this turning into an argument so I think I'll just stop replying

May Allah grant you all khair. Please remember me in your duas and forgive me for the sake of Allah if I offended any of you
Barak Allah fikkum
Reply

Ümit
08-01-2019, 10:48 AM
Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
In hanafi fiqh if you touch a woman your wuddoo doesn't break in shafi fiqh it does

Rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam is narrated to have kissed his wives before prayer so in this issue the hanafi position is stronger if I am a shafi and it becomes clear to me that this the stronger position but I say well the scholars of my madhab say otherwise so I am going to ignore the ahadith
I looked into this a bit deeper and I don't know whether the hanafi position is stronger. The shafi positition has two Quraan verses as daleel that it does.
The key word is "touching" in Arabic and what is meant by it.

The explanation went way beyond my ability to understand...but I do realize that Shafi's do have a certain position in this which should not be underestimated.

But again...I do not have the knowledge to decide on my own which is right and which is wrong...and because I follow the Hanafi madhab, I will stick to their rulings.

Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
Anyway I can see this turning into an argument so I think I'll just stop replying

May Allah grant you all khair. Please remember me in your duas and forgive me for the sake of Allah if I offended any of you
Barak Allah fikkum
Yes, this is getting way too complicated for me anyways...so maybe we should just leave it here.
Thanks for your contribution and hopefully you will also forgive me if I somehow have offended you.

I think none of us meant to offend the other in this thread and it was all on behalf of having a good healthy discussion...but still just in case, I'm sorry.
Reply

Ahmed.
08-01-2019, 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
You seem to be regurgitating propaganda about the madhabs from the ijtihad of contemporary madhab scholars which kind of makes your argument laughable because you are complaining about contemporary ijtihad when you are following what speakers of today have been saying when the earlier followers of the madhab did otherwise. Abu hanifa said if the hadith is authentic then that is my madhab. Why aren't you following his madhab in this

Let's address a few of your points

The madhabs are all correct. Uh no, you can't be simultaneously be in wuddoo and not in wuddoo at the same time. You cant be praying a Salah that's valid and not valid at the same time

There is consensus they are all correct. Again uh no. The bickering between the madhabs has been going on for centuries to the point some scholars fromthe hanafi and shafi madhabs applied the rulings of ahlul kitab to each other

Abu hanifa issued the ruling that small amounts of certain types of alcohol were permitted in small amounts as long as you didnt get drunk. His students changed this ruling after him. If he was infallible why did he get it wrong and why did his students change his ruling

Let me ask you a question am I sinful for not following a madhab? If so where is your daleel

I have no problem with people following a madhab but dont make it seem like its obligatory.

You follow Abu hanifa I will follow rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam
Brother I can find you the evidences that these views are not just contemporary but also the earliest salaf held them too; some of the views such as only following the 4 madhabs is allowed, had to come later when the necessity arose, however since Islamic sources establishes that consensus is a decisive proof, then even later consensus' become part of Islam. Finding all these evidences is time consuming brother but they are all available in that link of online book I posted earlier.

About Abu Hanifa saying sahih hadith is my madhab and other statements indicating one should disregard what he says and go along with sahih hadith that contradicts his view, there is overwhelming proof that he said that to those competent for ijtihad and not to laymen. There are many other statements of his where laymen are urged to follow his and other mujtahids teachings. Again these evidences is in that link and I'll post it again at bottom of this post.

I've already explained how all madhabs are valid and it seems you couldn't grasp the understanding. There's nothing else I can say about it other than repeat myself so I'll request you read that again ... however there is 1 hadith I'd like to mention

Do you know about the hadith where 2 groups of sahaba (ra) differed over when to pray asr on their way to banu qurayzah?, later Prophet (saw) informed them that both groups were right. One group had infact prayed it after asr time had passed... so here we have an example where highly contradictory differences were approved

The madhabs were in conflict in the early days but the hadiths about consensus validated them all as eventually the consensus of Scholars as well as laymen accepted them

As mentioned earlier differences of opinions are allowed in Islam so it's only natural for Mujtahid scholars to sometimes disagree, and that's the beauty of Islam that Abu Hanifas students could disagree with him and assist in codifying a school of thought and it is still called following Abu Hanifa as the latter disagreers were HIS STUDENTS, so even their disagreement is attributed to the teacher.

There's no problem with his students disagreeing as I've been saying all along a madhab is the COLLECTIVE work of the original teacher AND his students

Well since you have put the question to me again br. I'll say yes I do think you are astray as that's what the consensus of the traditional ulema say and I've given you other reasons earlier too. I say this for your own good as this is a very serious matter. Infact the majority of the ulema hold the salafi's as a bidah group; one of the 72 groups outside ahlus sunnah, becsuse going against consensus violates aqeedah.

And regarding the obligation for non Mujtahid to follow one of the four madhabs, the following is from the majority of scholsrs' perspective too:

[Sidi Abdullah Ould Hajj Ibrahim] has said in his Maraqi as-Sa’ud:
“[taqlid] is necessary for other than the one who has achieved the rank of absolute ijtihad. Even if he is a limited [mujtahid] who is unable [to perform absolute ijtihad].”

Commenting on this line, [Sidi Abdullah] said in Nashru al-bunud,

“It means that taqlid is an obligation on anyone who is not an absolute mujtahid, even if he has achieved the limited rank of ijtihad muqayyad . . . [until he says], ‘And ask the people of the reminder, if you yourselves do not know.’”

He also said,

“[Regarding] the necessity of binding to a specific madhhab, the [scholars] have mentioned its obligation upon anyone falling short [of the conditions of ijtihad].”

He says in Nashru al-bunud,

“It means that it is incumbent for whoever falls short of achieving the rank of absolute ijtihad to follow a particular madhhab.”

Again, in Maraqi as-Sa’ud, Sidi Abdullah says,

“The consensus today is on the four, and all have prohibited following [any] others.”

He says in Nashru al-bunud,

“This means that the consensus of the scholars today is on the four schools of thought, and I mean by the schools of Malik, Abu Hanifa, Shafi’i and Ahmad. Indeed, all of the scholars have prohibited following any other school of an independent and absolute mujtahid since the eighth century when the school of Dawud adh-Dhahiri died out and until the 12th Century and all subsequent ones.”

In the chapter concerning inferential reasoning, from Maraqi as-sa’ud, [Sidi Abdullah] says,

“As for the one who is not a mujtahid, then basing his actions on primary textual evidence [Qur’an and hadith] is not permissible.”

He says in Nashru al-bunud,

“It means that it is prohibited for other than a mujtahid to base his actions upon a direct text from either the Book or the Sunna even if its transmission was sound because of the sheer likelihood of there being other considerations such as abrogation, limitations, specificity to certain situations, and other such matters that none but the mujtahid fully comprehends with precision. Thus, nothing can save him from Allah the Exalted excepted following a mujtahid

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm

Regarding who follows Rasulullsh (saw); do you just apply your own undetstandings to sahih hadiths as to how they change or fit into rulings or do you take guidance from the contemporary salafi scholars? I think it will be more of the latter than the former right?; in this case you are following bin baz and salih al Munajid and co, and in the case of the former, you are following your own laymen mind.

I suppose you can say I follow Abu Hanifa, and here's an explanation:

“Surely the following of our [rightly guided] Imams is not abandoning the Qur’anic verses or the sound hadiths; it is the very essence of adhering to them and taking our judgements from them. This is because the Qur’an has not come down to us except by means of these very Imams [who are more worthy of following] by virtue of being more knowledgeable than us in [the sciences of] the abrogating and abrogated, the absolute and the conditional, the equivocal and the clarifying, the probabilistic and the plain, the circumstances surrounding revelation and their various meanings, as well as their possible interpretations and various linguistic and philological considerations, [not to mention] the various other ancillary sciences [involved in understanding the Qur’an] needed.

“Also, they took all of that from the students of the companions (tabi’in) who received their instruction from the companions themselves, who received their instructions from the Lawgiver himself, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, divinely protected from every mistake, who bore witness that the first three generations of Muslims would be ones of virtue and righteousness. Furthermore, the prophetic traditions have also reached us through their means given that they were also more knowledgeable than us through their means given that they were also more knowledgeable than those who came after them concerning the rigorously authenticated (sahih), the well authenticated (hasan), and the weak (da’if) channels of transmission, as well as the marfu’u4, mursal5, mutawatir6, ahad7, mu’dal8 and gharib9 transmissions.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm

Anyway this topic is far too contentious br. So it's only left for me to 'bow out' gracefully with my parting words, Assalamualikum wr wb and may Allah (swt) guide us all :)

https://central-mosque.com/index.php...-a-madhab.html
Reply

eesa the kiwi
08-01-2019, 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Brother I can find you the evidences that these views are not just contemporary but also the earliest salaf held them too; some of the views such as only following the 4 madhabs is allowed, had to come later when the necessity arose, however since Islamic sources establishes that consensus is a decisive proof, then even later consensus' become part of Islam. Finding all these evidences is time consuming brother but they are all available in that link of online book I posted earlier.

About Abu Hanifa saying sahih hadith is my madhab and other statements indicating one should disregard what he says and go along with sahih hadith that contradicts his view, there is overwhelming proof that he said that to those competent for ijtihad and not to laymen. There are many other statements of his where laymen are urged to follow his and other mujtahids teachings. Again these evidences is in that link and I'll post it again at bottom of this post.

I've already explained how all madhabs are valid and it seems you couldn't grasp the understanding. There's nothing else I can say about it other than repeat myself so I'll request you read that again ... however there is 1 hadith I'd like to mention

Do you know about the hadith where 2 groups of sahaba (ra) differed over when to pray asr on their way to banu qurayzah?, later Prophet (saw) informed them that both groups were right. One group had infact prayed it after asr time had passed... so here we have an example where highly contradictory differences were approved

The madhabs were in conflict in the early days but the hadiths about consensus validated them all as eventually the consensus of Scholars as well as laymen accepted them

As mentioned earlier differences of opinions are allowed in Islam so it's only natural for Mujtahid scholars to sometimes disagree, and that's the beauty of Islam that Abu Hanifas students could disagree with him and assist in codifying a school of thought and it is still called following Abu Hanifa as the latter disagreers were HIS STUDENTS, so even their disagreement is attributed to the teacher.

There's no problem with his students disagreeing as I've been saying all along a madhab is the COLLECTIVE work of the original teacher AND his students

Well since you have put the question to me again br. I'll say yes I do think you are astray as that's what the consensus of the traditional ulema say and I've given you other reasons earlier too. I say this for your own good as this is a very serious matter. Infact the majority of the ulema hold the salafi's as a bidah group; one of the 72 groups outside ahlus sunnah, becsuse going against consensus violates aqeedah.

And regarding the obligation for non Mujtahid to follow one of the four madhabs, the following is from the majority of scholsrs' perspective too:

[Sidi Abdullah Ould Hajj Ibrahim] has said in his Maraqi as-Sa’ud:
“[taqlid] is necessary for other than the one who has achieved the rank of absolute ijtihad. Even if he is a limited [mujtahid] who is unable [to perform absolute ijtihad].”

Commenting on this line, [Sidi Abdullah] said in Nashru al-bunud,

“It means that taqlid is an obligation on anyone who is not an absolute mujtahid, even if he has achieved the limited rank of ijtihad muqayyad . . . [until he says], ‘And ask the people of the reminder, if you yourselves do not know.’”

He also said,

“[Regarding] the necessity of binding to a specific madhhab, the [scholars] have mentioned its obligation upon anyone falling short [of the conditions of ijtihad].”

He says in Nashru al-bunud,

“It means that it is incumbent for whoever falls short of achieving the rank of absolute ijtihad to follow a particular madhhab.”

Again, in Maraqi as-Sa’ud, Sidi Abdullah says,

“The consensus today is on the four, and all have prohibited following [any] others.”

He says in Nashru al-bunud,

“This means that the consensus of the scholars today is on the four schools of thought, and I mean by the schools of Malik, Abu Hanifa, Shafi’i and Ahmad. Indeed, all of the scholars have prohibited following any other school of an independent and absolute mujtahid since the eighth century when the school of Dawud adh-Dhahiri died out and until the 12th Century and all subsequent ones.”

In the chapter concerning inferential reasoning, from Maraqi as-sa’ud, [Sidi Abdullah] says,

“As for the one who is not a mujtahid, then basing his actions on primary textual evidence [Qur’an and hadith] is not permissible.”

He says in Nashru al-bunud,

“It means that it is prohibited for other than a mujtahid to base his actions upon a direct text from either the Book or the Sunna even if its transmission was sound because of the sheer likelihood of there being other considerations such as abrogation, limitations, specificity to certain situations, and other such matters that none but the mujtahid fully comprehends with precision. Thus, nothing can save him from Allah the Exalted excepted following a mujtahid

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm

Regarding who follows Rasulullsh (saw); do you just apply your own undetstandings to sahih hadiths as to how they change or fit into rulings or do you take guidance from the contemporary salafi scholars? I think it will be more of the latter than the former right?; in this case you are following bin baz and salih al Munajid and co, and in the case of the former, you are following your own laymen mind.

I suppose you can say I follow Abu Hanifa, and here's an explanation:

“Surely the following of our [rightly guided] Imams is not abandoning the Qur’anic verses or the sound hadiths; it is the very essence of adhering to them and taking our judgements from them. This is because the Qur’an has not come down to us except by means of these very Imams [who are more worthy of following] by virtue of being more knowledgeable than us in [the sciences of] the abrogating and abrogated, the absolute and the conditional, the equivocal and the clarifying, the probabilistic and the plain, the circumstances surrounding revelation and their various meanings, as well as their possible interpretations and various linguistic and philological considerations, [not to mention] the various other ancillary sciences [involved in understanding the Qur’an] needed.

“Also, they took all of that from the students of the companions (tabi’in) who received their instruction from the companions themselves, who received their instructions from the Lawgiver himself, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, divinely protected from every mistake, who bore witness that the first three generations of Muslims would be ones of virtue and righteousness. Furthermore, the prophetic traditions have also reached us through their means given that they were also more knowledgeable than us through their means given that they were also more knowledgeable than those who came after them concerning the rigorously authenticated (sahih), the well authenticated (hasan), and the weak (da’if) channels of transmission, as well as the marfu’u4, mursal5, mutawatir6, ahad7, mu’dal8 and gharib9 transmissions.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm

Anyway this topic is far too contentious br. So it's only left for me to 'bow out' gracefully with my parting words, Assalamualikum wr wb and may Allah (swt) guide us all :)

https://central-mosque.com/index.php...-a-madhab.html
I think I'll leave it there too I dont want to argue with you, you are my bro in Islam and I have a lot of respect for you

Please forgive me for the sake of Allah if I said anything thing wrong or if my manners were poor

May Allah bless you immensely
Reply

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