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MohammadRafique
07-14-2019, 04:37 AM
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Who is the Real Muslim?
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr may God be pleased with him.


The holy Prophet PBUH said, "A Muslim is the one who avoids harming Muslims with his tongue and hands. And a Muhajir (emigrant) is the one who gives up (abandons) all what Allah has forbidden" (Bokhari, Muslim).


This hadith reveals that the real Muslim is one who avoids harming other Muslims by his tongue and hands. It means he does not pick a quarrel to others and never use backbiting, abusing and slander etc. And follows Allah’s commands and avoids unlawful or forbidden acts of Shariah. This is the real Muslim according to the teachings of Islam.


The Holy Prophet (PBUH) also said that the real wrestler is not the one who causes the other wrestler down on his back, but it is that who keeps control over his passions at the time of anger. He also said that when anyone becomes angry, if he is standing, should sit down, and if he is sitting, then he should lie down and drink water. Because anger is created by fire and fire becomes cold by water.

May Allah All-Almighty give us ’taufeeq’ to act upon these two hadiths, Ameen.


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chalks75
07-17-2019, 02:15 PM
I imagine that Muslims and Christians( and people of other faiths) face the same problem

Who is the final arbiter of who is a real practitioner of a faith .
Reply

Ahmed.
07-17-2019, 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
I imagine that Muslims and Christians( and people of other faiths) face the same problem

Who is the final arbiter of who is a real practitioner of a faith .
Any person who believes in Allah and His Messenger Muhammad (saw) is a real Muslim and that hadith quoting our Prophet (saw) infact means the more better and more perfect Muslim is the one who avoids harming other Muslims with his tongue and hands.
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Any person who believes in Allah and His Messenger Muhammad (saw) is a real Muslim and that hadith quoting our Prophet (saw) infact means the more better and more perfect Muslim is the one who avoids harming other Muslims with his tongue and hands.

So all sects of Islam are real Muslims ... why do they fight?
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Ahmed.
07-17-2019, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
So all sects of Islam are real Muslims ... why do they fight?
The Sunni sect infact has 90% of all Muslims and they don't fight between themselves

Other sects have sadly deviated however they're still within the folds of Islam
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
The Sunni sect infact has 90% of all Muslims and they don't fight between themselves

Other sects have sadly deviated however they're still within the folds of Islam

Why do they fight?
Reply

Ahmed.
07-17-2019, 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Why do they fight?
Well Sunnis are busy fighting America and it's sell out allies in Afghanistan and Iraq and Syria right now. The mad isis and Alqaeeda are not proper Sunnis either so I didn't include them in the 90%
Reply

keiv
07-17-2019, 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Why do they fight?
Who are you referring to? A certain sect? All Muslims?
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Well Sunnis are busy fighting America and it's sell out allies in Afghanistan and Iraq and Syria right now. The mad isis and Alqaeeda are not proper Sunnis either so I didn't include them in the 90%
So is it you who decides who is a proper Muslim and who is not.
Don’t isis accept the god exists and Muhammad is his prophet .... would that not mean they are proper Muslims according to your standard
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 08:54 AM
Originally Posted by keiv
Who are you referring to? A certain sect? All Muslims?
Is there not a long standing conflict between Sunnis and Shiites,

What is the conflict about
Reply

keiv
07-18-2019, 10:57 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
So is it you who decides who is a proper Muslim and who is not.
Don’t isis accept the god exists and Muhammad is his prophet .... would that not mean they are proper Muslims according to your standard
"Truth seeker", the definition of who is considered a Muslim is clear and is defined as such in the Quran and in the Hadith. Members of groups such as ISIS and others can say they're Muslim, but if they, or anyone else, go against the ways of the Prophet :saws1:, then clearly they aren't "proper" Muslims as the brother mentioned.

Going back to my question above, when you say "why do they fight", who are you referring to?
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 11:15 AM
Originally Posted by keiv
"Truth seeker", the definition of who is considered a Muslim is clear and is defined as such in the Quran and in the Hadith. Members of groups such as ISIS and others can say they're Muslim, but if they, or anyone else, go against the ways of the Prophet :saws1:, then clearly they aren't "proper" Muslims as the brother mentioned.

Going back to my question above, when you say "why do they fight", who are you referring to?
Obviously members of isis or alkidia would disagree with you ,,, and say that they are following the true teachings of the Quran and it’s you that has got it wrong.

You say they are wrong
They say you are wrong

Why do the Sunni Muslims and the Shiite Muslims fight against each other ?
Reply

keiv
07-18-2019, 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Obviously members of isis or alkidia would disagree with you ,,, and say that they are following the true teachings of the Quran and it’s you that has got it wrong.

You say they are wrong
They say you are wrong

Why do the Sunni Muslims and the Shiite Muslims fight against each other ?
Well, I don't know if they say I'm wrong but, as I stated earlier, The Quran and Hadith make the rules clear. Anyone who deviates from either of those are not following the commands of Allah properly regardless of our opinions on one another.

I don't have any Sunni or Shiite Muslims fighting here, so I guess you have to be more specific on which fights you're talking about.
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by keiv
Well, I don't know if they say I'm wrong but, as I stated earlier, The Quran and Hadith make the rules clear. Anyone who deviates from either of those are not following the commands of Allah properly regardless of our opinions on one another.

I don't have any Sunni or Shiite Muslims fighting here, so I guess you have to be more specific on which fights you're talking about.

It’s obviously not that clear since some people interpret it different from others , the very fact you say they are interpreting it wrong demonstrates this.

From what I understand there was an outbreak of sectarian violence between the 2 sects ( Sunni & Shiite) that there is an historical difference between the 2 , I’m trying to figure it out , best to get it from the horses miuth
Reply

Ahmed.
07-18-2019, 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
So is it you who decides who is a proper Muslim and who is not.
Don’t isis accept the god exists and Muhammad is his prophet .... would that not mean they are proper Muslims according to your standard
A proper Muslim is one who follows the clear teachings and morals of Islam. How can isis be proper when they kill civilians?
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
A proper Muslim is one who follows the clear teachings and morals of Islam. How can isis be proper when they kill civilians?

According to them , they are following the teachings of the Quran.

Does the problem lie with the fact the Quran can be interpreted in more than one way.
You say it’s wrong , they say it’s right ..

Who should I believe ?
Reply

Ahmed.
07-18-2019, 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
According to them , they are following the teachings of the Quran.

Does the problem lie with the fact the Quran can be interpreted in more than one way.
You say it’s wrong , they say it’s right ..

Who should I believe ?
Believe the overwhelming majority. Like I said, 90% of the Muslims are rightly guided so that's an indication that Gods message is clear to all, however due to there being a satan always trying to influence us a tiny minority have gone astray
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Believe the overwhelming majority. Like I said, 90% of the Muslims are rightly guided so that's an indication that Gods message is clear to all, however due to there being a satan always trying to influence us a tiny minority have gone astray
It’s not clear to all if it’s 90%
And since Muslims make up a small fraction of people on the planet ,then it’s not chart to most people .
Since Islam is only 1400 years old ( I apologise if that’s wrong) then it wasn’t clear to the billions of people that lived prior to the invention of the religion.
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-18-2019, 11:14 PM
Hello my friend,

Quran says:

On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (5:32)

Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform them of everything they had done. (6:159)

From these two verses following points are clear.
1. Muslims are submitters and they don’t rage war unless it is against an oppressor or self defense. Other than war, a person can only be killed if he has underestimated someone else but this has to be done in accordance to Islamic law by law enforcement agencies and not by any civilian.
Anyone who kill innocent human being Muslims or non Muslims is not a Muslim.

2. Unfortunately Muslims have divided them into several sects. Shia, Sunni, Sufi etc. what we learned from the second verse that God commands us to be Muslims ( submitters to the will of Allah ) and we should not label ourselves with Sunni or Shia.
3. Before you ask then who should you follow? Quran is clear on this. Muslims only follow Quran and the teachings of prophet Muhammad PBUH. who so does this is Muslim even if he calls himself Shia or Sunni.

Can Quran be interpreted in different ways?

Yes it can be because it is very rich in its meaning. The key here is that guidance comes from God and as long as you are sincere, you will be guided to the truth in the form of true understanding of Quran and teachings of prophet Muhammad PBUH.
Reply

chalks75
07-19-2019, 10:43 AM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
Hello my friend,

Quran says:

On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (5:32)

Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform them of everything they had done. (6:159)

From these two verses following points are clear.
1. Muslims are submitters and they don’t rage war unless it is against an oppressor or self defense. Other than war, a person can only be killed if he has underestimated someone else but this has to be done in accordance to Islamic law by law enforcement agencies and not by any civilian.
Anyone who kill innocent human being Muslims or non Muslims is not a Muslim.

2. Unfortunately Muslims have divided them into several sects. Shia, Sunni, Sufi etc. what we learned from the second verse that God commands us to be Muslims ( submitters to the will of Allah ) and we should not label ourselves with Sunni or Shia.
3. Before you ask then who should you follow? Quran is clear on this. Muslims only follow Quran and the teachings of prophet Muhammad PBUH. who so does this is Muslim even if he calls himself Shia or Sunni.

Can Quran be interpreted in different ways?

Yes it can be because it is very rich in its meaning. The key here is that guidance comes from God and as long as you are sincere, you will be guided to the truth in the form of true understanding of Quran and teachings of prophet Muhammad PBUH.
If something can be interpreted in more than one way ,and it is ... then it can’t be clear.

If two people have two different interpretations ,both claiming they have been give by god .... who is right ?
The one that you agree with ?
Reply

keiv
07-19-2019, 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
It’s obviously not that clear since some people interpret it different from others , the very fact you say they are interpreting it wrong demonstrates this.

From what I understand there was an outbreak of sectarian violence between the 2 sects ( Sunni & Shiite) that there is an historical difference between the 2 , I’m trying to figure it out , best to get it from the horses miuth
Originally Posted by chalks75
According to them , they are following the teachings of the Quran.

Does the problem lie with the fact the Quran can be interpreted in more than one way.
You say it’s wrong , they say it’s right ..

Who should I believe ?
Originally Posted by chalks75
It’s not clear to all if it’s 90%
And since Muslims make up a small fraction of people on the planet ,then it’s not chart to most people .
Since Islam is only 1400 years old ( I apologise if that’s wrong) then it wasn’t clear to the billions of people that lived prior to the invention of the religion.
Originally Posted by chalks75
If something can be interpreted in more than one way ,and it is ... then it can’t be clear.

If two people have two different interpretations ,both claiming they have been give by god .... who is right ?
The one that you agree with ?
Originally Posted by chalks75
It’s obviously not that clear since some people interpret it different from others , the very fact you say they are interpreting it wrong demonstrates this.

From what I understand there was an outbreak of sectarian violence between the 2 sects ( Sunni & Shiite) that there is an historical difference between the 2 , I’m trying to figure it out , best to get it from the horses miuth
Anyone can interpret any text whichever way they see fit to them. What we're commanded to do is to follow the Quran as well as the ways of prophet Muhammad :saws1:. He is the leader of our ummah just as other prophets were the leaders of their people at their respective times. If we look at the actions of certain groups of Muslims and compare that to what our prophet :saws1: did, that speaks for itself. The interrpretation of text is part of learning the religion, but it goes hand in hand with studying the actions of our great prophet :saws1: Interpretation means nothing if it goes against the sunnah.

It really is a simple concept to understand..
Reply

M.I.A.
07-19-2019, 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
If something can be interpreted in more than one way ,and it is ... then it can’t be clear.

If two people have two different interpretations ,both claiming they have been give by god .... who is right ?
The one that you agree with ?
Quran 49:16

Say, "Would you acquaint Allah with your religion while Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth, and Allah is Knowing of all things?"

I feel bad whenever I come here.. simply because none of us understand although we copy and paste much.

It's a good chapter in general anyway.
Reply

chalks75
07-19-2019, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by keiv
Anyone can interpret any text whichever way they see fit to them. What we're commanded to do is to follow the Quran as well as the ways of prophet Muhammad :saws1:. He is the leader of our ummah just as other prophets were the leaders of their people at their respective times. If we look at the actions of certain groups of Muslims and compare that to what our prophet :saws1: did, that speaks for itself. The interrpretation of text is part of learning the religion, but it goes hand in hand with studying the actions of our great prophet :saws1: Interpretation means nothing if it goes against the sunnah.

It really is a simple concept to understand..
I understand that’s the theory
But
It does not work in practice

There are individuals and groups of Muslims , acting in contradictory fashion , both claiming to be real Muslims , both point to an interpretation of the Quran to support their behaviour.

You say they are wrong
They say they are right ....

Who judges ?
Reply

chalks75
07-19-2019, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
Quran 49:16

Say, "Would you acquaint Allah with your religion while Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth, and Allah is Knowing of all things?"

I feel bad whenever I come here.. simply because none of us understand although we copy and paste much.

It's a good chapter in general anyway.
It’s not possible to know all things , it contradicts logic.
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-19-2019, 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
If something can be interpreted in more than one way ,and it is ... then it can’t be clear.

If two people have two different interpretations ,both claiming they have been give by god .... who is right ?
The one that you agree with ?
The fundamental beliefs such as believe in one God, believe in all prophets, believe in the unseen including angels, praying 5 times, offering zakah (charity), performing pilgrimage, fasting in the month of Ramadan are very clear and could not be interpreted in any different ways. Things which can be interpreted in different ways are very few and have no major impact on the foundation of Islam. Why there are somethings left for interpretation? It is to provide ease and flexibility to the believers. Islam is not rigid and extreme, it also provide a middle path and in some cases several ways to do one thing.

- - - Updated - - -

If you can pin point an issue which we disagree upon then we can look into that issue in reference to Quran and hadith. Whoever is going against these sources does not follow Quran and hadith.

Regarding Shia and Sunni rifts, don't get into this too much. Prophet Muhammad PBUH and his companions used to call themselves Muslims not sunni or shia. Both groups are there to use religion to get power as it has been the case throughout human history. Stick to Quran and teaching of prophet Muhammad PBUH.
If you are referring to ISIS and Alqaida, there are many opinions about them. Many says they are groups created by people who hate Islam to do the acts which they do to give a bad image of Islam. This may be true and may not be. We also know that Quran allows to have war against oppression and self-defense, and some hypocrites use such verses and political stories to gather innocent Muslims to join groups like ISIS and Alqaida. In either case, vast majority of Muslims don't support ISIS and Alqaida. Because even in war against oppression, there are rules which Muslims need to follow. Some of these rules are:

1. Don't start war without warning (Suicidal attacks are not approved by any Islamic scholar on this ground)
2. Don't kill women and children.
3. Don't kill old people.
4. Don't destroy natural resources such as trees and supply of food and water ( no economical sanctions in other words)
5. Don't kill people who surrender.
6. Don't kill people in places of worship.
7.Dont kill animals etc.........

You can see these are rules for war against self-defense and oppression in Islam. How can ISIS and other extreme group claim that the terrorist acts which they are doing are correct interpretation of Islam.
Islam is a religion which agrees with our nature. What will your nature like? The rules I laid out above or the rules which ISIS interpret are Islamic law? I don't think anyone need more than a second to see who is right and who is wrong in this case.
Reply

Ahmed.
07-20-2019, 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
It’s not clear to all if it’s 90%
And since Muslims make up a small fraction of people on the planet ,then it’s not chart to most people .
Since Islam is only 1400 years old ( I apologise if that’s wrong) then it wasn’t clear to the billions of people that lived prior to the invention of the religion.
Well you cannot expect every person on earth to be good and sincere at heart, this is the only reason a minority of Muslims are astray as they deviated from the proper path

Most of the people on earth are evil I'm afraid this is why they reject Islam and are desbelievers

Islam started with the first man on earth Adam (as) so there's always been believers on earth and sometimes these believers have totally decimated due to the passing of Prophets and evil people distorting scriptures however Allah has always renewed the true religion, with the latest and final version being Islam.
Reply

M.I.A.
07-20-2019, 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
It’s not possible to know all things , it contradicts logic.
I agree, for a human it is impossible to know everything..

But at the same time you actually do have an answer for everything. T_T

It's only natural.
Reply

chalks75
07-21-2019, 09:54 AM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Well you cannot expect every person on earth to be good and sincere at heart, this is the only reason a minority of Muslims are astray as they deviated from the proper path

Most of the people on earth are evil I'm afraid this is why they reject Islam and are desbelievers

Islam started with the first man on earth Adam (as) so there's always been believers on earth and sometimes these believers have totally decimated due to the passing of Prophets and evil people distorting scriptures however Allah has always renewed the true religion, with the latest and final version being Islam.
Most of the people on earth are evil ?
That is absurd , if that’s the kind of thing your religion leads you to believe , it makes me so glad that I’m not religious.

When you say they are evil , what you mean is they are evil in your opinion.
Your opinion is informed through the lens of your religion.

If Adam was the first person on earth , how could he have been a Muslim ?

( btw, the story of creation in the bible is not a factual account , it’s a mythological tale )
Reply

chalks75
07-21-2019, 10:00 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
I agree, for a human it is impossible to know everything..

But at the same time you actually do have an answer for everything. T_T

It's only natural.
I don’t have an answer for everything.
There are many things I don’t know , and probably never know.

For instance ,
I do not know how the universe came to be.
I do not know how life began .
Ido not know what happens people after they die.

I do understand you have certain religious beliefs around these subjects.
You have your religious beliefs, as the Jews have theirs, the Christians have theirs, the Buddhists and Hindus have theirs, the Egyptians, the Norse, the Mayan’s , Incas , aztecs, all had beliefs about the universe and life .

They didn’t know , I don’t know , you don’t know.

You believe , you don’t know
Reply

chalks75
07-21-2019, 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
The fundamental beliefs such as believe in one God, believe in all prophets, believe in the unseen including angels, praying 5 times, offering zakah (charity), performing pilgrimage, fasting in the month of Ramadan are very clear and could not be interpreted in any different ways. Things which can be interpreted in different ways are very few and have no major impact on the foundation of Islam. Why there are somethings left for interpretation? It is to provide ease and flexibility to the believers. Islam is not rigid and extreme, it also provide a middle path and in some cases several ways to do one thing.

- - - Updated - - -

If you can pin point an issue which we disagree upon then we can look into that issue in reference to Quran and hadith. Whoever is going against these sources does not follow Quran and hadith.

Regarding Shia and Sunni rifts, don't get into this too much. Prophet Muhammad PBUH and his companions used to call themselves Muslims not sunni or shia. Both groups are there to use religion to get power as it has been the case throughout human history. Stick to Quran and teaching of prophet Muhammad PBUH.
If you are referring to ISIS and Alqaida, there are many opinions about them. Many says they are groups created by people who hate Islam to do the acts which they do to give a bad image of Islam. This may be true and may not be. We also know that Quran allows to have war against oppression and self-defense, and some hypocrites use such verses and political stories to gather innocent Muslims to join groups like ISIS and Alqaida. In either case, vast majority of Muslims don't support ISIS and Alqaida. Because even in war against oppression, there are rules which Muslims need to follow. Some of these rules are:

1. Don't start war without warning (Suicidal attacks are not approved by any Islamic scholar on this ground)
2. Don't kill women and children.
3. Don't kill old people.
4. Don't destroy natural resources such as trees and supply of food and water ( no economical sanctions in other words)
5. Don't kill people who surrender.
6. Don't kill people in places of worship.
7.Dont kill animals etc.........

You can see these are rules for war against self-defense and oppression in Islam. How can ISIS and other extreme group claim that the terrorist acts which they are doing are correct interpretation of Islam.
Islam is a religion which agrees with our nature. What will your nature like? The rules I laid out above or the rules which ISIS interpret are Islamic law? I don't think anyone need more than a second to see who is right and who is wrong in this case.
Please don’t get me wrong ,
I understand that Muslims that are involved in extremism is a small fraction of the population , but not an insignificant one.

Would you agree that those Muslims do claim to be following the teachings of the Quran, and point to passages within to support their position.

This is the problem with dogmatic beliefs , to hold any belief that logic , evidence ,nor argument can dent or alter is problematic.
I will change my mind ,if you can present evidence compelling enough to compel me.

Would you abandon Islamic beliefs in the face of contrary evidence ?

I’ve asked this same question to some Christians , some said ....” no matter what evidence was presented , they would not change their minds”
This is such a strange position to hold , I understand people place great importance on their religion .... but when all is said and done , it’s just some things you believe are true.
Reply

M.I.A.
07-21-2019, 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
I don’t have an answer for everything.
There are many things I don’t know , and probably never know.

For instance ,
I do not know how the universe came to be.
I do not know how life began .
Ido not know what happens people after they die.

I do understand you have certain religious beliefs around these subjects.
You have your religious beliefs, as the Jews have theirs, the Christians have theirs, the Buddhists and Hindus have theirs, the Egyptians, the Norse, the Mayan’s , Incas , aztecs, all had beliefs about the universe and life .

They didn’t know , I don’t know , you don’t know.

You believe , you don’t know
Ok but.. if you did ask those questions today, where would you draw your understanding from? I would suppose the concept of creation is as important as the actual creation of things.

All of those civilisations or religions you mention do actually believe in something guiding progress rather than them simply existing for the sake of it...

It's the philosophy of existence and its continued existence.

I'm no historian but if you google those civilisations, religions and peoples you mentioned..the concept of creation usually bares many similarities between them.

Science, which today is a driving factor in understanding the universe.. and in putting forward it's best interpretation of events..

Has given much the same answer as NEARLY all those you mentioned.

But without the philosophical and ideological bias of a guided creation.

But it still bares many similarities to other creation "myths" which is ironic I suppose.


Its neither a here nor there answer, but science is a belief system based on fact.. although its progress has gone from philosophical to pragmatic and a fair few strange things in between.

To me personally, the belief I have in the answers to those questions you asked is not the same as having to know the truth of those questions you asked.

The philosophy and concept of driven creation and progress influences the way I live my life today..

Which will hopefully try and keep you on topic..

Religion is what you make it and what it makes of you.

Everything is open to interpretation and sometimes it's not even what you say that matters but rather how you say it..

The explanation of subject matter and intent of action behind it are not something that should be lost on us.. like some sort of hidden message.

But that's how the world works to some extent...

I mean just take count if how many times a person hears "I believe" during day to day activities..

Simply so your current thought and response process can be re evaluated.
Reply

Ahmed.
07-21-2019, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Most of the people on earth are evil ?
That is absurd , if that’s the kind of thing your religion leads you to believe , it makes me so glad that I’m not religious.

When you say they are evil , what you mean is they are evil in your opinion.
Your opinion is informed through the lens of your religion.

If Adam was the first person on earth , how could he have been a Muslim ?

( btw, the story of creation in the bible is not a factual account , it’s a mythological tale )
Adam (as) was Muslim because Muslim means one who submits to Allah. From his time Allah revealed religions to all communities on earth, the beliefs were always the same but the provisions of works differed. Christianity and Judaism have been distorted by man, this is why their beliefs doesn't match Islam.

There is ofcourse those people on earth who havnt been received by the Islamic invitation to convert so apart from those people (who could number in the millions) the rest are bad* as they have rejected Gods religion

God Himself says in the Quran that most people on earth (who are desbelievers) will lead us to a wicked path:

Quranic verses like "If you obey most of those on earth, they will lead you astray from the path of Allah" (Quran, 6:116) do not refer to those who follow traditional Islamic scholarship (who have never been a majority of those on earth), but rather the non-Muslim majority of mankind.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/studyh.htm

* However as to the peoples inner state, we reserve judgement as only God judges the heart and we just judge the apparent

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by chalks75
Most of the people on earth are evil ?
That is absurd , if that’s the kind of thing your religion leads you to believe , it makes me so glad that I’m not religious.

When you say they are evil , what you mean is they are evil in your opinion.
Your opinion is informed through the lens of your religion.
Words like evil and wicked are meant in a religious sense so don't get alarmed as I'm not saying non-Muslims are serial killers and child kidnappers. In the secular sense 'evil' just means those who are on path to hell
Reply

Physicist
07-22-2019, 02:04 AM
There is a simple indicator.
All violent types are fanatics.
Fanaticism means blind following leaders or ideas. And this contradicts the core of Islam, Shahada.

LailaahaillAllah - nobody or nothing to be worshipped other than Allah.
Neither people, neither jinns (ideas), nothing in the universe. Only God to be worshipped.


Shia do worship teachers.
Wahhabi, while being strictly against worshipping people, are worshipping Qur'an and prone to worship ideas.

While Islam, by design, encourages maturity and responsibility, there are always infantile youngsters eager to join any group which would promise them feeling of significance, be it a football team, nazi movement or a religious sect.
Reply

chalks75
07-22-2019, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Adam (as) was Muslim because Muslim means one who submits to Allah. From his time Allah revealed religions to all communities on earth, the beliefs were always the same but the provisions of works differed. Christianity and Judaism have been distorted by man, this is why their beliefs doesn't match Islam.

There is ofcourse those people on earth who havnt been received by the Islamic invitation to convert so apart from those people (who could number in the millions) the rest are bad* as they have rejected Gods religion

God Himself says in the Quran that most people on earth (who are desbelievers) will lead us to a wicked path:

Quranic verses like "If you obey most of those on earth, they will lead you astray from the path of Allah" (Quran, 6:116) do not refer to those who follow traditional Islamic scholarship (who have never been a majority of those on earth), but rather the non-Muslim majority of mankind.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/studyh.htm

* However as to the peoples inner state, we reserve judgement as only God judges the heart and we just judge the apparent

- - - Updated - - -



Words like evil and wicked are meant in a religious sense so don't get alarmed as I'm not saying non-Muslims are serial killers and child kidnappers. In the secular sense 'evil' just means those who are on path to hell
In the secular sense ... hell does not exist.
Evil , to me , means a person who cause intentional harm to another person , for political or financial reasons , or for no discernible reason.

I do not believe heaven or hell exist , these are just concepts people invented.
Hell does not exist in the Jewish religion , Christians invented it , and it was adopted by Islam
Reply

chalks75
07-22-2019, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by Physicist
There is a simple indicator.
All violent types are fanatics.
Fanaticism means blind following leaders or ideas. And this contradicts the core of Islam, Shahada.

LailaahaillAllah - nobody or nothing to be worshipped other than Allah.
Neither people, neither jinns (ideas), nothing in the universe. Only God to be worshipped.


Shia do worship teachers.
Wahhabi, while being strictly against worshipping people, are worshipping Qur'an and prone to worship ideas.

While Islam, by design, encourages maturity and responsibility, there are always infantile youngsters eager to join any group which would promise them feeling of significance, be it a football team, nazi movement or a religious sect.
Islam itself is a religious sect.

It seems we have strayed off the topic ,
But you have confirmed that the Quran is open to interpretation, and people use their interpretations to further their own selfish needs or desires ,
In that sense , it’s very much like the Christian bible.
Reply

chalks75
07-22-2019, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Adam (as) was Muslim because Muslim means one who submits to Allah. From his time Allah revealed religions to all communities on earth, the beliefs were always the same but the provisions of works differed. Christianity and Judaism have been distorted by man, this is why their beliefs doesn't match Islam.

There is ofcourse those people on earth who havnt been received by the Islamic invitation to convert so apart from those people (who could number in the millions) the rest are bad* as they have rejected Gods religion

God Himself says in the Quran that most people on earth (who are desbelievers) will lead us to a wicked path:

Quranic verses like "If you obey most of those on earth, they will lead you astray from the path of Allah" (Quran, 6:116) do not refer to those who follow traditional Islamic scholarship (who have never been a majority of those on earth), but rather the non-Muslim majority of mankind.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/studyh.htm

* However as to the peoples inner state, we reserve judgement as only God judges the heart and we just judge the apparent

- - - Updated - - -



Words like evil and wicked are meant in a religious sense so don't get alarmed as I'm not saying non-Muslims are serial killers and child kidnappers. In the secular sense 'evil' just means those who are on path to hell
When you talk about Adam ,
Are you taking about Adam and Eve , the garden of Eden , the talking snake etc

I’m hoping you are not .
Reply

Ahmed.
07-22-2019, 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
In the secular sense ... hell does not exist.
Evil , to me , means a person who cause intentional harm to another person , for political or financial reasons , or for no discernible reason.

I do not believe heaven or hell exist , these are just concepts people invented.
Hell does not exist in the Jewish religion , Christians invented it , and it was adopted by Islam
What I meant was, in the secular sense a person will be described as 'evil' if he is a serial killer, peodophile etc but the religious 'evil' would mean those going to hell, so good ole Mr humanitarian leftie who rejects Islam will fit that description

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by chalks75
When you talk about Adam ,
Are you taking about Adam and Eve , the garden of Eden , the talking snake etc

I’m hoping you are not .
Yes I am and dna evidence has proven this; it has proven all of humanity have a common father:

https://www.livescience.com/38613-ge...uncovered.html

Live Science
Both men and women can trace their origins to a man and a woman who lived about 135,000 years ago....
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-22-2019, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Please don’t get me wrong ,

This is the problem with dogmatic beliefs , to hold any belief that logic , evidence ,nor argument can dent or alter is problematic.
I will change my mind ,if you can present evidence compelling enough to compel me.

Would you abandon Islamic beliefs in the face of contrary evidence ?

I’ve asked this same question to some Christians , some said ....” no matter what evidence was presented , they would not change their minds”
This is such a strange position to hold , I understand people place great importance on their religion .... but when all is said and done , it’s just some things you believe are true.

As far as Quran goes, can you point out any issue which you have with Quran's teachings? Give me some examples and we will see if it is your misunderstanding of the text or Quran's teachings are outdated?
Second source of Islam is Hadith and there is a reason why Hadith and Quran are two separate sources. Quran is Divine message, Hadith is written down by Muslims over several centuries. There are several categories of hadith depending on chain of narrations and only hadith which Muslims accept are those which have an authentic chain and does not go against the teachings of Quran. It is a complex subject and we can discuss this later if needed me. For now lets focus on Quran.
Reply

chalks75
07-22-2019, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
As far as Quran goes, can you point out any issue which you have with Quran's teachings? Give me some examples and we will see if it is your misunderstanding of the text or Quran's teachings are outdated?
Second source of Islam is Hadith and there is a reason why Hadith and Quran are two separate sources. Quran is Divine message, Hadith is written down by Muslims over several centuries. There are several categories of hadith depending on chain of narrations and only hadith which Muslims accept are those which have an authentic chain and does not go against the teachings of Quran. It is a complex subject and we can discuss this later if needed me. For now lets focus on Quran.
So you follow the Quran and hadiths

So your religion is partly man made
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-22-2019, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
So you follow the Quran and hadiths

So your religion is partly man made
I want to laugh but it will be disrespectful for someone who does not know how hadiths are compiled. Sorry I had to find a way to convey my emotions in the text form.
Search what chain of narration means and how hadiths are compiled.
Reply

chalks75
07-22-2019, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
I want to laugh but it will be disrespectful for someone who does not know how hadiths are compiled. Sorry I had to find a way to convey my emotions in the text form.
Search what chain of narration means and how hadiths are compiled.
It’s ok to laugh , I have thick skin.

You said the hadiths are written by men , men are fallible so the hadiths could be wrong

Am I wrong to say that part of your religion was written by men ?
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-22-2019, 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
It’s ok to laugh , I have thick skin.

You said the hadiths are written by men , men are fallible so the hadiths could be wrong

Am I wrong to say that part of your religion was written by men ?
No you are not wrong is saying that. Since hadiths are written by men, yes they can be fallible and should be looked at with skepticism. Let me explain briefly what Hadith is and then you may be able to understand better.


The hadiths are very important inIslam because they fill in the details on Islamic life. Where the Quran gives Muslims a broad framework for how we should live, the Hadiths give us specificinformation. Here are some examples of how the hadiths give us specifics ongeneral commandments from the Quran.


·The Qurancommands Muslims to pray. –However, Prophet Muhammad has informed us how and when to perform Islamicprayers in several hadiths.


·The Qurancommands Muslims to make Hajj. –However, narrations describing the Hajj and Umrah of Prophet Muhammad (peace beupon him) tell us how to make Hajj.


·The Qurancommands Muslims to give Zakah. –However, it is hadith quoting narrations from Prophet Muhammad (peace be uponhim) that tell us who must pay Zakah, and how much to give.


To put it simple, the hadith explainthe Sunnah (practice or tradition) of Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
Each hadith consists of two parts: the report and chain ofnarration. The report represents what was said or done by the Prophet Muhammad PBUH,as witnessed by his companions, and the chain is the sequence of people whohave passed the report down to us. Knowing the chain that is associated withthe report is crucial because without it anyone can make any claim they likeabout the Prophet Muhammad PBUH and we would have no way of verifying whetherit was an authentic report. Chains allow the scholars of Islam to distinguishauthentic hadiths from weak and fabricated ones by scrutinizing the individualnarrators within the chains. This methodology was pioneered by the early Muslimscholars and is known as the science of hadith.

There are many hadiths which are weak and only few andauthentic. For example, Sahih Bukhari which was compiled by Imam Muhammad Ibn IsmailAl-Bukhari. It is said Imam Bukhari collected over 300,000 hadiths but onlyconsidered 2600 authentic enough to go into this collection.
It is important for Muslims to follow only authentic hadithsif they don’t contradict Quran. Quran is always a primary source of guidance. Authentichadiths are secondary source and week hadith are there for reference, if theycontradict Sahih hadith and Quran then we don’t follow them.

Example:

Here is an example of an authentic hadith about fasting:
Abu Huraira reported the Prophetsaying: [God the Exalted and Majestic said] Every act of the son of Adam is forhim; every good deed will receive tenfold except fasting. It is [exclusively]meant for me, and I [alone] will reward it. He abandons his food for My sakeand abandons drinking for My sake and abandons his pleasure for My sake. Whenany one of you is fasting he should neither indulge in sex nor use obscenelanguage. If anyone reviles him he should say, "I am fasting." Theone who fasts has two [occasions] of joy: one when he breaks the fast and oneon the day when he will meet his Lord. And the breath [of a fasting person] issweeter to God than the fragrance of musk. [SahihBukhari, Hadith #1761]

Notice that the report starts with the statement “AbuHuraira reported”. Abu Huraira is a famous companion of the Prophet Muhammad PBUHand he is telling us he heard this statement directly from the mouth of theProphet. This report reaches us through multiple chains, as Abu Hurairamemorized the words of the Prophet and passed them onto the following people(the chart below should be read from right to left):

Attachment 6738

If we focus on the third generation of narrators from AbuHuraira, then there are over twenty narrators from different regions, such asMedina, Basra, Kufa, Mecca, Wasit, Hijaz and Khurasan.

But Abu Huraira wasn’tthe only companion who heard the Prophet utter the words about fasting. Other companions,such as Ibn Masud, Uthman and Ali, also reported the same hadith:

Attachment 6739

So, we can see that this hadith has a large amount ofattestation. It would be virtually impossible to fabricate such a report giventhat there are multiple independent chains, consisting of people from differenttimes and places, and yet they all report the same hadith.







Reply

chalks75
07-23-2019, 10:53 AM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
No you are not wrong is saying that. Since hadiths are written by men, yes they can be fallible and should be looked at with skepticism. Let me explain briefly what Hadith is and then you may be able to understand better.


The hadiths are very important inIslam because they fill in the details on Islamic life. Where the Quran gives Muslims a broad framework for how we should live, the Hadiths give us specificinformation. Here are some examples of how the hadiths give us specifics ongeneral commandments from the Quran.


·The Qurancommands Muslims to pray. –However, Prophet Muhammad has informed us how and when to perform Islamicprayers in several hadiths.


·The Qurancommands Muslims to make Hajj. –However, narrations describing the Hajj and Umrah of Prophet Muhammad (peace beupon him) tell us how to make Hajj.


·The Qurancommands Muslims to give Zakah. –However, it is hadith quoting narrations from Prophet Muhammad (peace be uponhim) that tell us who must pay Zakah, and how much to give.


To put it simple, the hadith explainthe Sunnah (practice or tradition) of Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
Each hadith consists of two parts: the report and chain ofnarration. The report represents what was said or done by the Prophet Muhammad PBUH,as witnessed by his companions, and the chain is the sequence of people whohave passed the report down to us. Knowing the chain that is associated withthe report is crucial because without it anyone can make any claim they likeabout the Prophet Muhammad PBUH and we would have no way of verifying whetherit was an authentic report. Chains allow the scholars of Islam to distinguishauthentic hadiths from weak and fabricated ones by scrutinizing the individualnarrators within the chains. This methodology was pioneered by the early Muslimscholars and is known as the science of hadith.

There are many hadiths which are weak and only few andauthentic. For example, Sahih Bukhari which was compiled by Imam Muhammad Ibn IsmailAl-Bukhari. It is said Imam Bukhari collected over 300,000 hadiths but onlyconsidered 2600 authentic enough to go into this collection.
It is important for Muslims to follow only authentic hadithsif they don’t contradict Quran. Quran is always a primary source of guidance. Authentichadiths are secondary source and week hadith are there for reference, if theycontradict Sahih hadith and Quran then we don’t follow them.

Example:

Here is an example of an authentic hadith about fasting:



Notice that the report starts with the statement “AbuHuraira reported”. Abu Huraira is a famous companion of the Prophet Muhammad PBUHand he is telling us he heard this statement directly from the mouth of theProphet. This report reaches us through multiple chains, as Abu Hurairamemorized the words of the Prophet and passed them onto the following people(the chart below should be read from right to left):

Attachment 6738

If we focus on the third generation of narrators from AbuHuraira, then there are over twenty narrators from different regions, such asMedina, Basra, Kufa, Mecca, Wasit, Hijaz and Khurasan.

But Abu Huraira wasn’tthe only companion who heard the Prophet utter the words about fasting. Other companions,such as Ibn Masud, Uthman and Ali, also reported the same hadith:

Attachment 6739

So, we can see that this hadith has a large amount ofattestation. It would be virtually impossible to fabricate such a report giventhat there are multiple independent chains, consisting of people from differenttimes and places, and yet they all report the same hadith.








That’s very interesting .

How do you verify the initial report is correct.
The Muhammad actually preformed the action.
Reply

HabibUrrehman
07-23-2019, 02:54 PM
My last post had two attachments. Last attachment showed that there were at least 7 more witnesses who reported the same narration. The hadith narrators were evaluated on two qualities:

1. Uprightness - Trustworthy, honest, having good moral character.
2. Precision - Known for good memory, or preserving in writing from the time the narrator heard it from first hand source.

If in the chain of narrators any person was known to have a bad memory, then that hadith is generally classified as weak. Similarly, if any of the narrator was known as dishonest then any hadith narrated from such a person would be regarded as the most unreliable.

Now compare this to our justice system. Normally if we have two witnesses for any account, those are generally accepted as good enough. Normally the mental state and moral character of these witnesses is not investigated as thoroughly as it should be. Now compared this to the criteria above and also notice that we don't have just two witnesses, we have more than 8 in this particular hadith. So there were 8 witnesses in first generation, and as I mentioned above by the time we reached third generation we have over 20 narrators and they were all from different places but narrating the same action word to word.

Compare these to Gospels and then you can realize the beauty of hadith science.
Reply

chalks75
07-23-2019, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
My last post had two attachments. Last attachment showed that there were at least 7 more witnesses who reported the same narration. The hadith narrators were evaluated on two qualities:

1. Uprightness - Trustworthy, honest, having good moral character.
2. Precision - Known for good memory, or preserving in writing from the time the narrator heard it from first hand source.

If in the chain of narrators any person was known to have a bad memory, then that hadith is generally classified as weak. Similarly, if any of the narrator was known as dishonest then any hadith narrated from such a person would be regarded as the most unreliable.

Now compare this to our justice system. Normally if we have two witnesses for any account, those are generally accepted as good enough. Normally the mental state and moral character of these witnesses is not investigated as thoroughly as it should be. Now compared this to the criteria above and also notice that we don't have just two witnesses, we have more than 8 in this particular hadith. So there were 8 witnesses in first generation, and as I mentioned above by the time we reached third generation we have over 20 narrators and they were all from different places but narrating the same action word to word.

Compare these to Gospels and then you can realize the beauty of hadith science.
How do you verify that there were 7 witnesses there?
Reply

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