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m4rouf
06-27-2020, 03:33 PM
Is this really something that Islamic teachings uphold?

The reason this surprises me is that people’s emans fluctuate all the time. It may be so low at a point in someone’s life that they stop calling themselves Muslims but with Allāh’s guidance, what’s to say they won’t find their way back onto the right path?

People could later become some of the best Muslims but they wouldn’t get the chance to repent and reach that stage if they’re executed.

Just a couple of examples - the youtubers Way of Life SQ and Fousey Tube. They both even went as far as getting tattoos and denouncing their faith entirely but SubhanAllah they’ve reverted back to Islam and are helping others to find their way back too ما شاء الله.

Is this ruling really enforced? Are exceptions made?

This just really upsets me because I have people in my life who have denounced their faith in Islam but I pray every single day that Allah will guide them. I like to think that they will have the chance to come back - I can’t even fathom the thought of their execution and taking away that chance.
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Avis
06-28-2020, 04:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by m4rouf
Is this really something that Islamic teachings uphold?

The reason this surprises me is that people’s emans fluctuate all the time. It may be so low at a point in someone’s life that they stop calling themselves Muslims but with Allāh’s guidance, what’s to say they won’t find their way back onto the right path?

People could later become some of the best Muslims but they wouldn’t get the chance to repent and reach that stage if they’re executed.

Just a couple of examples - the youtubers Way of Life SQ and Fousey Tube. They both even went as far as getting tattoos and denouncing their faith entirely but SubhanAllah they’ve reverted back to Islam and are helping others to find their way back too ما شاء الله.

Is this ruling really enforced? Are exceptions made?

This just really upsets me because I have people in my life who have denounced their faith in Islam but I pray every single day that Allah will guide them. I like to think that they will have the chance to come back - I can’t even fathom the thought of their execution and taking away that chance.
First, I didn't mean to like your post. I just use my cursor to follow along with the words when I am reading them and I accidentally clicked like.

Anyways, I am not a scholar so don't take my words to heart. It would be best that you go to a Alim in your local masjid and have them try to clear your doubts about this serious matter. Now, as for the subject, I will tell you what I believe about it. Firstly, I believe that the punishment is for those who openly apostate and rebel against the state and/or try to corrupt the Islamic Society. You should read Brother Ahmad H's post here: Apostasy (it is the fourth post), he does a good job explaining it.

Secondly, some people, no matter how many chances they get, will never believe or will believe but would outright reject Allah in order to live how they want. Rejecting Allah is the worst sin you could ever do. How could one reject Him with all the gifts and blessings He has given us? Look at how Merciful and Loving He is:

Abu Dharr reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Allah Almighty says: Whoever comes with a good deed will have the reward of ten like it and even more. Whoever comes with an evil deed will be recompensed for one evil deed like it or he will be forgiven. Whoever draws close to me by the length of a hand, I will draw close to him by the length of an arm. Whoever draws close to me the by length of an arm, I will draw close to him by the length of a fathom. Whoever comes to me walking, I will come to him running. Whoever meets me with enough sins to fill the earth, not associating any idols with me, I will meet him with as much forgiveness.
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2687

Allah already knows who are the believers and who are the dwellers of hell. If someone dies in the state of disbelief, then that is their fate. It doesn't matter if they get put to death by the state or die of natural causes.
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Nitro Zeus
06-30-2020, 03:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by m4rouf
Is this really something that Islamic teachings uphold?

The reason this surprises me is that people’s emans fluctuate all the time. It may be so low at a point in someone’s life that they stop calling themselves Muslims but with Allāh’s guidance, what’s to say they won’t find their way back onto the right path?

People could later become some of the best Muslims but they wouldn’t get the chance to repent and reach that stage if they’re executed.

Just a couple of examples - the youtubers Way of Life SQ and Fousey Tube. They both even went as far as getting tattoos and denouncing their faith entirely but SubhanAllah they’ve reverted back to Islam and are helping others to find their way back too ما شاء الله.

Is this ruling really enforced? Are exceptions made?

This just really upsets me because I have people in my life who have denounced their faith in Islam but I pray every single day that Allah will guide them. I like to think that they will have the chance to come back - I can’t even fathom the thought of their execution and taking away that chance.
No no

Apostasy is not punishable by death.

First of all, one can leave Islam any time he or she wishes. But, there are conditions which makes apostasy be punishable by death.

Second of all, those who apostise from Islam and then sread terrorism should be punished by death by Islamic court

Third of all, an apostate who spread hayred to others just to mislead Muslims and to shake the faith of Muslims can be put to death.

But sadly, thoe who practice Capital Punishment on Apostasy, have totally misunderstood Quran and Sunnah. So, my answer won't benefit you even though it may be correct, because of what is happening in Middle East. The main problem of this, is becaus of huge misunderstanding about Shariah Law which the Muslim countries have.
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فصيح الياسين
06-30-2020, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nitro Zeus
No no

Apostasy is not punishable by death.

First of all, one can leave Islam any time he or she wishes. But, there are conditions which makes apostasy be punishable by death.

Second of all, those who apostise from Islam and then sread terrorism should be punished by death by Islamic court

Third of all, an apostate who spread hayred to others just to mislead Muslims and to shake the faith of Muslims can be put to death.

But sadly, thoe who practice Capital Punishment on Apostasy, have totally misunderstood Quran and Sunnah. So, my answer won't benefit you even though it may be correct, because of what is happening in Middle East. The main problem of this, is becaus of huge misunderstanding about Shariah Law which the Muslim countries have.
Dear nitro can you defend your view that no death penalty for apostates. Kindly elobarate us with strong proofs from quran or sunnah or ijmah ul ummah
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Nitro Zeus
06-30-2020, 04:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by فصيح الياسين
Dear nitro can you defend your view that no death penalty for apostates. Kindly elobarate us with strong proofs from quran or sunnah or ijmah ul ummah
The proof is from www.discover-the-truth.wordpress.com where it speaks about historical background for Quran 5:33 where it states that some group of Muslims have apostised from Islam and then have spread terror

Also, another proof is from www.abuaminaelias.com where the authord have made things clear about the Laws of Apostasy and I find it very instresting and geniune explanation. From there I took this idea and have launched an article about Lesser Apostasy and Greater Apostasy.

By the way, I go to Islamic websites whete it preaches what I believe in(i.e. justice, equality and freedom of religion)

I have not said there is absolutely no punishment for apostasy. What I have said is that the interpretation for apostasy is wrong and I invite you to those websites for you to see what I'm trying to say.
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فصيح الياسين
06-30-2020, 05:24 PM
Dear nirtous the first website i opened. Dose not have the adress.
Secondly the ayah you mentioned is for bandits. And upon said by many fuqaha.
For reference see tafseer kabeer. But tafseer kabeer is in arabic and also strong one and authentic.

I passed my 7 years in madrasa and i never ever heard what you said.

And the second web kindly specify the article adress so i can read their article fully. Thanking you
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Nitro Zeus
06-30-2020, 06:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by فصيح الياسين
Dear nirtous the first website i opened. Dose not have the adress.
Secondly the ayah you mentioned is for bandits. And upon said by many fuqaha.
For reference see tafseer kabeer. But tafseer kabeer is in arabic and also strong one and authentic.

I passed my 7 years in madrasa and i never ever heard what you said.

And the second web kindly specify the article adress so i can read their article fully. Thanking you
Try to go to Wordpress and visit that website called: Discover-the-truth.com and go to their page called Most Misinterpretated Verses and see over there or just type Verses

The article of the web which I'm talkin' about is Freedom of Religion and apostasy in Islam

Have you thought about evolution in studies?
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فصيح الياسين
06-30-2020, 06:39 PM
First i gave you reference from authentic book. Secondly what do you mean by evolving
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Islami.Mu'mina
06-30-2020, 06:40 PM
I don't believe it is punishable by death... I know it is what our classic scholars will say because of the hadith narrations that talk about this, but I think there is more to it.

Look at these Quran narrations.
And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve.}*(Al-Kahf 18:29)

He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement. This is because they love this world’s life more than the hereafter, and because Allah does not guide the unbelieving people. These are they on whose hearts and their hearing and their eyes Allah has set a seal, and these are the heedless ones. No doubt that in the hereafter they will be the losers.}* (An-Nahl 16:106-109)

This second Quran narration is talking about the terrible punishment of the HEREAFER for these ex muslims. I don't think they can be punished now.


I do understand that scholars will use hadith narrations to prove that you must kill an apostate, but isn't the Quran's word above the hadith? Some argue that there is no compulsion in Islam except that when it comes to apostates, they can be punished. But it doesn't make sense. An apostate is disbeliever just like any other disbeliever.

The hadith cannot contradict the quran, otherwise it is authentic right? Either that hadith was authentic OR maybe the apostates back then were considered a threat because they could be of harm to the muslims or something.

If anyone disagrees with me, I'd like to hear your opinion on this topic
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Nitro Zeus
06-30-2020, 06:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by فصيح الياسين
First i gave you reference from authentic book. Secondly what do you mean by evolving
I mean, evolving in interpretation. Because, there are many ways of interpretating and looking, and I believe that the correct interpretation is by looking at the historical background for Quranic verses that talks about Apostasy.

Seems like you are a Wahhabi:)))

I believe that the teachers from the school you have been, have forgotten that their teachings can be wrong as I have shown you. And becausetheir teachings, this have lead many astray.
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'Abdullah
07-01-2020, 04:57 PM
Al-Bukhaari (6922) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbas said:
The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:
Whoever changes his religion, put him to death.
Al-Bukhaari (6484) and Muslim (1676) narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:
It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a previously-married person who commits zina; and one who leaves his religion and separates from the main body of the Muslims.
The general meaning of these hadiths indicates that it is essential to put the apostate to death whether he is waging war on Islam or not.
An article of Islamqa has explained it in more depth and I have included that article towards the end of my post for reference.
Please note these hadiths are from Sahih Bukhaari & Sahih Muslim. Anyone who has any doubts on the authenticity of these hadiths, should reflect deep down because these doubts will some day lead to bigger issues and it is better to close the door to such doubts before it is too late. Islam and its rulings are not based on our whims and desires. We need to represent Islam as is, there is no need to be apologetic or looking for more liberal interpretations to avoid the hard questions from the Western thinkers and liberals.

Apostasy has been a crime which is punishable in every society because it break the fabric which units the society. Anyone who speaks against the society values has been murders or assassinated even by the most modern societies who think they value freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is only allowed to a certain extend and when it becomes problem to the people in power, people who speak against them are executed or assassinated. Why was Martin Luther King assassinated or why was Malcolm X assassinated? Its simply because they spoke about racial equality. Once the American government saw them as a threat, they assassinated them. Where was the so-called freedom of speech? Even today with black lives matter, how many people have been prisoned or murdered and there is no one to question the government.

Anyways, my point is that, punishment for an apostate is part of every culture & society. Islam in that sense is not different from others. However, it does allow an ordinary apostate ( one who did not rage war against Islam by his words or actions) to repent. But in case of an extreme apostate ( one who rages war against Islam), death is the only punishment.



Quoting directly from Islamqa website:

The view that the apostate who is to be put to death is the one who is waging war on Islam (muhaarib) only is contrary to ahaadeeth. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said that the reason why he should be put to death is his apostasy, not his waging war against Islam.
Undoubtedly some kinds of apostasy are more abhorrent than others, and the apostasy of one who wages war against Islam is more abhorrent than that of anyone else. Hence some of the scholars differentiated between them, and said that it is not essential to ask the muhaarib to repent or to accept his repentance; rather he should be put to death even if he repents, whereas the repentance of one who is not a muhaarib should be accepted and he should not be put to death. This is the view favoured by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him).
He said:
Apostasy is of two types: ordinary apostasy and extreme apostasy, for which execution is prescribed. In both cases there is evidence that it is essential to execute the apostate, but the evidence indicating that the sentence of death may be waived if the person repents does not apply to both types of apostasy. Rather the evidence indicates that that is allowed only in the first case – i.e., ordinary apostasy – as will be clear to anyone who studies the evidence that speaks about accepting the repentance of the apostate. In the second type – i.e., extreme apostasy – the obligation to put the apostate to death still stands, and there is no text or scholarly consensus to indicate that the death sentence may be waived. The two cases are quite different and there is no comparison between them. It does not say in the Qur’aan or Sunnah, or according to scholarly consensus, that everyone who apostatizes in word or deed may be spared the death sentence if he repents after he is a captured and tried. Rather the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and scholarly consensus, differentiate between the different kinds of apostates.
Waging war against Islam is not limited only to fighting with weapons, rather it may be done verbally such as defaming Islam or the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), or attacking the Qur'an, and so on. Waging verbal war against Islam may be worse than waging war against it with weapons in some cases.

Reference:https://islamqa.info/en/answers/1423...-and-apostates
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Nitro Zeus
07-01-2020, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
Al-Bukhaari (6922) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbas said:
The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

Al-Bukhaari (6484) and Muslim (1676) narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:


The general meaning of these hadiths indicates that it is essential to put the apostate to death whether he is waging war on Islam or not.
An article of Islamqa has explained it in more depth and I have included that article towards the end of my post for reference.
Please note these hadiths are from Sahih Bukhaari & Sahih Muslim. Anyone who has any doubts on the authenticity of these hadiths, should reflect deep down because these doubts will some day lead to bigger issues and it is better to close the door to such doubts before it is too late. Islam and its rulings are not based on our whims and desires. We need to represent Islam as is, there is no need to be apologetic or looking for more liberal interpretations to avoid the hard questions from the Western thinkers and liberals.

Apostasy has been a crime which is punishable in every society because it break the fabric which units the society. Anyone who speaks against the society values has been murders or assassinated even by the most modern societies who think they value freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is only allowed to a certain extend and when it becomes problem to the people in power, people who speak against them are executed or assassinated. Why was Martin Luther King assassinated or why was Malcolm X assassinated? Its simply because they spoke about racial equality. Once the American government saw them as a threat, they assassinated them. Where was the so-called freedom of speech? Even today with black lives matter, how many people have been prisoned or murdered and there is no one to question the government.

Anyways, my point is that, punishment for an apostate is part of every culture & society. Islam in that sense is not different from others. However, it does allow an ordinary apostate ( one who did not rage war against Islam by his words or actions) to repent. But in case of an extreme apostate ( one who rages war against Islam), death is the only punishment.



Quoting directly from Islamqa website:



Waging war against Islam is not limited only to fighting with weapons, rather it may be done verbally such as defaming Islam or the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), or attacking the Qur'an, and so on. Waging verbal war against Islam may be worse than waging war against it with weapons in some cases.

Reference:https://islamqa.info/en/answers/1423...-and-apostates
Wait but, is this kind of interpretation leads one to injustice!? I don't mean to argue or something, I just doubt about it's interpretation

Have you went through www.discover-the-truth.wordpress.com and also on abuaminaelias.com at their article called "Freedom of Religion and apostasy in Islam"?

On www.discover-the-truth.wordpress.com please visit their articles:

1. Historical background for Quran 5:33

2. Laws of Apostasy

And at www.abuaminaelias.com please go to their article called "Freedom of religion and apostasy in Islam" and let me know what you think, ok?

Personally, I believe that the interpretation of islamqa.info is a misinterpretation and misunderstanding actually.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-01-2020, 05:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nitro Zeus
No no

Apostasy is not punishable by death.

First of all, one can leave Islam any time he or she wishes. But, there are conditions which makes apostasy be punishable by death.

Second of all, those who apostise from Islam and then sread terrorism should be punished by death by Islamic court

Third of all, an apostate who spread hayred to others just to mislead Muslims and to shake the faith of Muslims can be put to death.

But sadly, thoe who practice Capital Punishment on Apostasy, have totally misunderstood Quran and Sunnah. So, my answer won't benefit you even though it may be correct, because of what is happening in Middle East. The main problem of this, is becaus of huge misunderstanding about Shariah Law which the Muslim countries have.
We need to first understand when was the law of apostasy first implemented and why? And I hope this will help us understand the wisdom behind these punishments which may seem unjust at first glance but I hope you will see how this act leads to misguidance of many others and why capital punishment against apostates is justified when we look at the great harm to the society.

Let's look into the Quranic verse 3:72
[وَقَالَت طَّآئِفَةٌ مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَـبِ ءَامِنُواْ بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَجْهَ النَّهَارِ وَاكْفُرُواْ ءَاخِرَهُ]

Translation: [And a party of the People of the Scripture say: "Believe in the morning in that which is revealed to the believers, and reject it at the end of the day,]

This was a wicked plan from the People of the Book to deceive Muslims who were weak in the religion. They decided that they would pretend to be believers in the beginning of the day, by attending the dawn prayer with the Muslims. However, when the day ended, they would revert to their old religion so that the ignorant people would say, "They reverted to their old religion because they uncovered some shortcomings in the Islamic religion.'' This is why they said next.

[لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ]
Translation: [so that they may turn back.]
Ibn Abi Najih said that Mujahid commented about this Ayah, which refers to the Jews, "They attended the dawn prayer with the Prophet and disbelieved in the end of the day in order to misguide the people. This way, people would think that they have uncovered shortcomings in the religion that they briefly followed.''

This was the plot of the Jews to put doubts in the minds of new Muslims. And this was the first time, apostasy laws were put into practice.
Same plot is being plotted by many non-Muslims now a days. They accept Islam, learn Arabic, become active in the community and later denounce Islam and start speaking ill about Islam on social media. If anyone thinks that these guys don't deserve death penalty for misguiding others than we have serious issues with our faith. We love people for the sake of Allah and we hate those who misguide people on purpose and who hate Islam.

And Allah knows the best!
Ma'aSalaam
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'Abdullah
07-01-2020, 06:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nitro Zeus
Wait but, is this kind of interpretation leads one to injustice!? I don't mean to argue or something, I just doubt about it's interpretation

Have you went through www.discover-the-truth.wordpress.com and also on abuaminaelias.com at their article called "Freedom of Religion and apostasy in Islam"?

On www.discover-the-truth.wordpress.com please visit their articles:

1. Historical background for Quran 5:33

2. Laws of Apostasy

And at www.abuaminaelias.com please go to their article called "Freedom of religion and apostasy in Islam" and let me know what you think, ok?

Personally, I believe that the interpretation of islamqa.info is a misinterpretation and misunderstanding actually.
By all means we should discuss such topics to get further clarity. I am not opposed to have these discussions. But we also need to be careful with our scholarly work. We can't simply reject the opinion of our well established scholars only because it goes against our own desires. What we need, is to look into the evidence provided by different scholars, look at how this issue has been understood historically by the companions and see if the opinion of these scholars align with our historical understanding of such issues.
I also understand that apostasy laws are some times misused

Have you went through
www.discover-the-truth.wordpress.com
and also on abuaminaelias.com at their article called "Freedom of Religion and apostasy in Islam"?
I could not open this article.
And at
www.abuaminaelias.com
please go to their article called "Freedom of religion and apostasy in Islam" and let me know what you think, ok?
I just opened up this article and it is no surprise to see that this article compliments Islamqa's opinion on many levels. I think you are confused with the term minor apostasy, quoting directly from that article:
Minor apostasy is when someone embraces Islam and later leaves the religion peacefully without causing harm to the community.
Can you name a single Muslim who leaves Islam and remains peaceful, not talking bad about Islam on social media? If not, then they don't fall into the category of minor apostasy. 99.99 % apostates fall in the category of Major Apostasy which we all agree deserves death penalty.
Someone’s abandonment of Islam does not decrease Allah in anything. Nor should it have any impact on our iman and our pursuit of our Lord.
People want to throw themselves off the Ark? Yes it’s sad and yes we try our utmost to prevent that and help Muslims get off the ledge. But if people are insistent on their own destruction and have taken the plunge into the abyss, sorry, the rest of us can’t be bothered at that point. Put the drama aside. We have more important things to worry about. Like our own salvation and praying that what deluded such people doesn’t infect our own hearts.
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Nitro Zeus
07-01-2020, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
By all means we should discuss such topics to get further clarity. I am not opposed to have these discussions. But we also need to be careful with our scholarly work. We can't simply reject the opinion of our well established scholars only because it goes against our own desires. What we need, is to look into the evidence provided by different scholars, look at how this issue has been understood historically by the companions and see if the opinion of these scholars align with our historical understanding of such issues.
I also understand that apostasy laws are some times misused


I could not open this article.

I just opened up this article and it is no surprise to see that this article compliments Islamqa's opinion on many levels. I think you are confused with the term minor apostasy, quoting directly from that article:

Can you name a single Muslim who leaves Islam and remains peaceful, not talking bad about Islam on social media? If not, then they don't fall into the category of minor apostasy. 99.99 % apostates fall in the category of Major Apostasy which we all agree deserves death penalty.
Someone’s abandonment of Islam does not decrease Allah in anything. Nor should it have any impact on our iman and our pursuit of our Lord.
People want to throw themselves off the Ark? Yes it’s sad and yes we try our utmost to prevent that and help Muslims get off the ledge. But if people are insistent on their own destruction and have taken the plunge into the abyss, sorry, the rest of us can’t be bothered at that point. Put the drama aside. We have more important things to worry about. Like our own salvation and praying that what deluded such people doesn’t infect our own hearts.
No no, this websites are not about following our whims and desires. It's about examing and analysing the Laws of Apostasy which is believed to be misused by even Saudi Arabia and to identify the error in the usage and to correct that error.

This is what is all about.

Lol, but how is it possible that you can't open up that link I provided?? It's really weird.

Maybe also, because those people who apostised come from ignorant countries who misused Shariah Law and that is why they criticize Islam in Social Media. Have you thought of this?
Reply

Avis
07-01-2020, 07:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
By all means we should discuss such topics to get further clarity. I am not opposed to have these discussions. But we also need to be careful with our scholarly work. We can't simply reject the opinion of our well established scholars only because it goes against our own desires. What we need, is to look into the evidence provided by different scholars, look at how this issue has been understood historically by the companions and see if the opinion of these scholars align with our historical understanding of such issues.
I also understand that apostasy laws are some times misused


I could not open this article.

I just opened up this article and it is no surprise to see that this article compliments Islamqa's opinion on many levels. I think you are confused with the term minor apostasy, quoting directly from that article:

Can you name a single Muslim who leaves Islam and remains peaceful, not talking bad about Islam on social media? If not, then they don't fall into the category of minor apostasy. 99.99 % apostates fall in the category of Major Apostasy which we all agree deserves death penalty.
Someone’s abandonment of Islam does not decrease Allah in anything. Nor should it have any impact on our iman and our pursuit of our Lord.
People want to throw themselves off the Ark? Yes it’s sad and yes we try our utmost to prevent that and help Muslims get off the ledge. But if people are insistent on their own destruction and have taken the plunge into the abyss, sorry, the rest of us can’t be bothered at that point. Put the drama aside. We have more important things to worry about. Like our own salvation and praying that what deluded such people doesn’t infect our own hearts.
One of the links didn't work for me and the other keeps giving me a warning not to enter so I couldn't read anything. My question is what does it say about the minor apostasy? Do they get put to death even if they keep quiet and still behave as a good member of society?
Reply

'Abdullah
07-01-2020, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nitro Zeus
No no, this websites are not about following our whims and desires. It's about examing and analysing the Laws of Apostasy which is believed to be misused by even Saudi Arabia and to identify the error in the usage and to correct that error.

This is what is all about.
Internet is full of such articles who say apostasy is not a punishable crime. Should I learn my Deen from internet? I previusly advised you that if you are serious about your religion then make sure you learn Islam from authetic sources. Anyways Islam is perfect and we don't have any need to water down our teachings to please non-Muslims and liberals.
There is a whole chapter about apostasy in Sahih Bukhari, please read that chapter. The link is below:
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/88
Quoting one hadith from Sahih Bukhari
Narrated `Ali:
Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."

حَدَّثَنَا عُمَرُ بْنُ حَفْصِ بْنِ غِيَاثٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي، حَدَّثَنَا الأَعْمَشُ، حَدَّثَنَا خَيْثَمَةُ، حَدَّثَنَا سُوَيْدُ بْنُ غَفَلَةَ، قَالَ عَلِيٌّ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ إِذَا حَدَّثْتُكُمْ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم حَدِيثًا فَوَاللَّهِ، لأَنْ أَخِرَّ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ أَحَبُّ إِلَىَّ مِنْ أَنْ أَكْذِبَ عَلَيْهِ، وَإِذَا حَدَّثْتُكُمْ فِيمَا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ فَإِنَّ الْحَرْبَ خَدْعَةٌ، وَإِنِّي سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ سَيَخْرُجُ قَوْمٌ فِي آخِرِ الزَّمَانِ، حُدَّاثُ الأَسْنَانِ، سُفَهَاءُ الأَحْلاَمِ، يَقُولُونَ مِنْ خَيْرِ قَوْلِ الْبَرِيَّةِ، لاَ يُجَاوِزُ إِيمَانُهُمْ حَنَاجِرَهُمْ، يَمْرُقُونَ مِنَ الدِّينِ كَمَا يَمْرُقُ السَّهْمُ مِنَ الرَّمِيَّةِ، فَأَيْنَمَا لَقِيتُمُوهُمْ فَاقْتُلُوهُمْ، فَإِنَّ فِي قَتْلِهِمْ أَجْرًا لِمَنْ قَتَلَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ ‏"‏‏.‏
Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 6930
In-book reference: Book 88, Hadith 12
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 9, Book 84, Hadith 64
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/88/12
************
Lol, but how is it possible that you can't open up that link I provided?? It's really weird.
Not sure what's the reason, one other member said the same thing. It may has to do something with my internet security.
************
Maybe also, because those people who apostised come from ignorant countries who misused Shariah Law and that is why they criticize Islam in Social Media. Have you thought of this?

Misused Shariah law? Shariah law is not implemented in any Muslim country of our time and age to the best of my knowledge.
Reply

Nitro Zeus
07-01-2020, 09:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
Internet is full of such articles who say apostasy is not a punishable crime. Should I learn my Deen from internet? I previusly advised you that if you are serious about your religion then make sure you learn Islam from authetic sources. Anyways Islam is perfect and we don't have any need to water down our teachings to please non-Muslims and liberals.
There is a whole chapter about apostasy in Sahih Bukhari, please read that chapter. The link is below:
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/88
Quoting one hadith from Sahih Bukhari


format_quote Originally Posted by Nitro Zeus
Lol, but how is it possible that you can't open up that link I provided?? It's really weird.
Not sure what's the reason, one other member said the same thing. It may has to do something with my internet security.

format_quote Originally Posted by Nitro Zeus
Maybe also, because those people who apostised come from ignorant countries who misused Shariah Law and that is why they criticize Islam in Social Media. Have you thought of this?
Misused Shariah law? Shariah law is not implemented in any Muslim country of our time and age to the best of my knowledge.
And what about Capital Punishments?

Aren't they not part of Shariah Law?
Reply

'Abdullah
07-01-2020, 10:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nitro Zeus
And what about Capital Punishments?
Aren't they not part of Shariah Law?
Yes of course, these are part of Sharia Law. What I meant is that Sharia law in it’s totality is not implemented by any Muslims country. You may see bits and pieces of Sharia law.
Anyways come to original topic, I don’t see a single person who apostates and not talk bad about Islam. So even if we say for the sake of discussion that those who leave Islam peacefully have no capital punishment, we all agree that those who apostate and rage war against Islam with their words and actions should have a capital punishment.
There are also few others things one should take into consideration such as is the apostate living in an Islamic state or not? If the apostate lives in a non Islamic country, then obviously there is no capital punishment. If someone lives in an Islamic country which has clearly stated a capital punishment for apostasy then it has to be carried out by the Justice system through proper channel in the presence of enough evidence and witnesses. Common people of any Islamic state has no right to take the law in their hand and start killing people at the name of apostasy/Blasphemy.

And Allah knows the best!
Reply

Avis
07-01-2020, 11:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
Yes of course, these are part of Sharia Law. What I meant is that Sharia law in it’s totality is not implemented by any Muslims country. You may see bits and pieces of Sharia law.
Anyways come to original topic, I don’t see a single person who apostates and not talk bad about Islam. So even if we say for the sake of discussion that those who leave Islam peacefully have no capital punishment, we all agree that those who apostate and rage war against Islam with their words and actions should have a capital punishment.
There are also few others things one should take into consideration such as is the apostate living in an Islamic state or not? If the apostate lives in a non Islamic country, then obviously there is no capital punishment. If someone lives in an Islamic country which has clearly stated a capital punishment for apostasy then it has to be carried out by the Justice system through proper channel in the presence of enough evidence and witnesses. Common people of any Islamic state has no right to take the law in their hand and start killing people at the name of apostasy/Blasphemy.

And Allah knows the best!
:jz: for your input. I wish more people would be willing to have a discussion like this without being uncivil about it.

As for the topic, open apostasy is basically treason. What is the punishment for treason for most countries? Death.

Here is what the U.S. says about treason:

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
Sounds similar to the Shariah's punishment when it pertains to open apostasy.

If they don't like the law, they can always go to a different country. Otherwise, if they rebel in a Muslim country, they deserve what they get.
Reply

m4rouf
07-01-2020, 11:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
By all means we should discuss such topics to get further clarity. I am not opposed to have these discussions. But we also need to be careful with our scholarly work. We can't simply reject the opinion of our well established scholars only because it goes against our own desires. What we need, is to look into the evidence provided by different scholars, look at how this issue has been understood historically by the companions and see if the opinion of these scholars align with our historical understanding of such issues.
I also understand that apostasy laws are some times misused


I could not open this article.

I just opened up this article and it is no surprise to see that this article compliments Islamqa's opinion on many levels. I think you are confused with the term minor apostasy, quoting directly from that article:

Can you name a single Muslim who leaves Islam and remains peaceful, not talking bad about Islam on social media? If not, then they don't fall into the category of minor apostasy. 99.99 % apostates fall in the category of Major Apostasy which we all agree deserves death penalty.
Someone’s abandonment of Islam does not decrease Allah in anything. Nor should it have any impact on our iman and our pursuit of our Lord.
People want to throw themselves off the Ark? Yes it’s sad and yes we try our utmost to prevent that and help Muslims get off the ledge. But if people are insistent on their own destruction and have taken the plunge into the abyss, sorry, the rest of us can’t be bothered at that point. Put the drama aside. We have more important things to worry about. Like our own salvation and praying that what deluded such people doesn’t infect our own hearts.
That’s a bit of an exaggeration. The people I wrote this post about never post negatively about Islam on social media. I can name them but you wouldn’t know them. In fact, I don’t personally know anyone who speaks bad about Islam on social media.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-02-2020, 03:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by m4rouf
That’s a bit of an exaggeration. The people I wrote this post about never post negatively about Islam on social media. I can name them but you wouldn’t know them. In fact, I don’t personally know anyone who speaks bad about Islam on social media.
Social media is just one example. It is impossible for someone to apostate openly and not discuss his/her views with people around them. The reasons could be multiple such as to justify their own actions or to convince others to join them. I can post many links of apostates who are very openly criticizing Islam and some of them still live in Muslim countries but I don’t want to be part of advertising for fitna.

By apostating, they have already rebelled against the society they were part of and have broken the social fabric of their families. I can’t imagine the impact it would have had on their parents, siblings and other relatives. If these apostates did not care about the impact their decision will have on their families, I am not sure why are you so worried. At the best, you can make dua for their guidance.

I would personally cut off my ties with such people regardless of how close they are to me. Enemies of Islam are my enemies regardless of their relationship to me. Remember our faith is not complete until we love Allah and His messenger more than ourselves & this also means hate those who rejected the blessing of Allah in the form of Islam.

Anyways instead of giving my own opinion, please read the opinion of our scholars on how should we deal with apostates in our families. Link is below:
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/1699...is-an-apostate

And Allah knows the best!
Ma’aSalaam
Reply

'Abdullah
07-02-2020, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Avis
Here is what the U.S. says about treason:

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.


You have nailed it. This is funny because most Western countries talk about Justice, freedom of speech and they think they have the right to civilize the entire world. They can go and kill leaders of Islamic states such as Saddam Hussain, Muammar Qaddafi and no one would say a word. How is that Justice? I guess they were freeing people from oppressors in their own definition.
They can go and kill millions of children and common citizens in Afghanistan and Iraq, but again it is justified because that have civilized them ( according to their own standards).
They can kill their own citizens outside USA for treason and yet they have the audacity to criticize Islam for its apostasy laws. Muslim don't go and hunt down apostates living in non-Muslim countries. And even the apostates living in Islam states are given an opportunity to repent before execution unlike liberals. Which system is more Just - Islamic law or so-called liberal laws?
Muslims need to educate themselves better and believe in Shariah laws with 100% conviction.
Reply

taha_
07-02-2020, 05:19 PM
Assalam o alaikum rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

https://youtu.be/lRB3snGxgns

YouTube
Answer to a great issue ,which is propagated to day in media is Apostasy In Islam. This Question is Answered by Dr. Bilal Philips in this video clip. And don......
Reply

'Abdullah
07-02-2020, 06:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Islami.mu'min
I don't believe it is punishable by death... I know it is what our classic scholars will say because of the hadith narrations that talk about this, but I think there is more to it.

Look at these Quran narrations.
And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve.}*(Al-Kahf 18:29)

He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement. This is because they love this world’s life more than the hereafter, and because Allah does not guide the unbelieving people. These are they on whose hearts and their hearing and their eyes Allah has set a seal, and these are the heedless ones. No doubt that in the hereafter they will be the losers.}* (An-Nahl 16:106-109)

This second Quran narration is talking about the terrible punishment of the HEREAFER for these ex muslims. I don't think they can be punished now.


I do understand that scholars will use hadith narrations to prove that you must kill an apostate, but isn't the Quran's word above the hadith? Some argue that there is no compulsion in Islam except that when it comes to apostates, they can be punished. But it doesn't make sense. An apostate is disbeliever just like any other disbeliever.

The hadith cannot contradict the quran, otherwise it is authentic right? Either that hadith was authentic OR maybe the apostates back then were considered a threat because they could be of harm to the muslims or something.

If anyone disagrees with me, I'd like to hear your opinion on this topic
There are several hadiths I can quote but I can see from your post that an evidence from Quran will be more convincing Inshallah.

إِنَّمَا جَزَٰٓؤُا۟ ٱلَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ فَسَادًا أَن يُقَتَّلُوٓا۟ أَوْ يُصَلَّبُوٓا۟ أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُم مِّنْ خِلَٰفٍ أَوْ يُنفَوْا۟ مِنَ ٱلْأَرْضِ ذَٰلِكَ لَهُمْ خِزْىٌ فِى ٱلدُّنْيَا وَلَهُمْ فِى ٱلْءَاخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ


Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment. [Quran 5:33]
Waging war against something may be done by physically attacking it or by speaking against it. The latter may be far more dangerous than the former with regard to religions. So is also the case with spreading mischief: it may be through causing physical damage or through causing moral harm, and the latter is, likewise, far more hazardous than the former with regard to religions. This proves how much more harmful it is to wage war against Allah and His Messenger by speaking against them and seeking to spread mischief in the land. In Arab culture, we say that the pen is mightier than the tongue. Writing about something may be far more effective than merely speaking about it, especially in this day and age, as writings can be widely published. I hope it makes sense.

Also refer to post#13 in this thread which related to when and why punishment of apostasy was first introduced in Islam.

Regarding the verses you have mentioned in your post, yes there is no compulsion in the religion. But when one accepts Islam, he/she has to accept the entire package and part of the package in execution for apostasy because it destroys the Muslim family & corrupts the Muslim society.

And Allah knows the best!
Ma'aSalaam
Reply

Nitro Zeus
07-12-2020, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
Internet is full of such articles who say apostasy is not a punishable crime. Should I learn my Deen from internet? I previusly advised you that if you are serious about your religion then make sure you learn Islam from authetic sources. Anyways Islam is perfect and we don't have any need to water down our teachings to please non-Muslims and liberals.
There is a whole chapter about apostasy in Sahih Bukhari, please read that chapter. The link is below:
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/88
Quoting one hadith from Sahih Bukhari

************

Not sure what's the reason, one other member said the same thing. It may has to do something with my internet security.
************

Misused Shariah law? Shariah law is not implemented in any Muslim country of our time and age to the best of my knowledge.
I was not refering about pleasing non-Muslims and liberals. I was reffering about what is the correct interpretation. Because, I believe that it has been misunderstood. My point is not about how to be just even when using capital punishments.This is my point. Wait a second, does that hadith applies to ISIS or no?
Reply

'Abdullah
07-13-2020, 04:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nitro Zeus
I was not refering about pleasing non-Muslims and liberals. I was reffering about what is the correct interpretation. Because, I believe that it has been misunderstood. My point is not about how to be just even when using capital punishments.This is my point. Wait a second, does that hadith applies to ISIS or no?
It would have been more helpful if you read all replies in this thread. There is ample evidence for one who is looking for guidance. There is no difference of opinion among the companions ( may Allah be pleased with them all) on the punishment of apostates - as a matter of fact all four Caliphs put this punishment into practice and they knew Islam more than you and I. Let me quote just few well known examples:

  • Abu Bakr (May Allah be pleased with him) fought against apostates who denounced Islam after Prophet's death and started worship idols.
  • In an incident, ‘Umar (May Allah be pleased with him) did not deny the punishment of killing the apostate but asked about whether they gave him some time to repent, and when they denied it, he criticized them for it. If ‘Umar’s opinion was that the apostate should not be killed, he would have condemned them for killing the apostate, period, and would have said something along the lines of: Why did you kill him while he did not deserve it?
  • Why did 'Ali ibn Abi Talib (May Allah be pleased with him) killed an old man who was a Christian, accepted Islam and then apostatized? This incident is mentioned in Abdul-razzaq's musannaf, no. 18709. The man was presented to ‘Ali ibn Abi Ṭalib. ‘Ali said to him: Perhaps, you have apostatized to gain a share of the inheritance, and then return to Islam?’ He said: No. He said: You might have wanted to marry a woman, but they refused to marry her to you. So, you wanted to marry her, then return to Islam? He said: No. Then ‘Ali said: Return to Islam. He said: No, until I meet Christ, I will not do so. Then ‘Ali ordered that this neck be stricken, and his inheritance was paid to his Muslim sons. As it appears from this incident, the old apostate man did not show treachery or declare a war against the community, all he committed was mere apostasy. ‘Ali ibn Abi Ṭalib tried to pardon him, but he did not respond, so, he inflicted the fixed punishment upon him.
  • There is another famous hadith according to which Ali (May Allah be pleased with him) punished apostates by burning them alive in the fire. Those who were burned alive apostatized from Islam and did not fight or declare war against the Muslims. All that they did was that they worshipped idols and claimed that ‘Ali is divine. In this incident, both ‘Ali and Ibn ‘Abbas agreed on the killing of apostates. This is a major incident that was obviously known to everyone at that time, and yet no companion denied their punishment.


There are so many other incidents I can quote from the lives of the companions alone to prove that capital punishment for apostates was widely accepted and practiced by those who learned Islam directly from Prophet (peace be upon him). They knew that it is commandment of Allah and they would simply obey whatever was taught to them by Prophet (peace be upon him). We tend to use our intellect which is heavily influenced by Western values & hence we may see these acts as barbaric but in reality it is not. It is justice of Allah & in so many places in Quran Allah has mentioned that corruption in society is far bigger crime them killing a human being who is spreading this corruption.

There is also no difference of opinion among all four Sunni madhabs and even the Shias agree to capital punishment for apostates. I hope that you find this helpful.
Ma'aSalaam
Reply

HowManyMore
07-13-2020, 05:41 PM
But as far as I know the Prophet (Sallallahu alayhi wasallam) never applied this punishment to apostates himself.
Reply

HowManyMore
07-13-2020, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Avis
As for the topic, open apostasy is basically treason. What is the punishment for treason for most countries? Death.
Wikipedia says not. Most countries have abolished the practice of capital punishment entirely.
Reply

Nitro Zeus
07-13-2020, 06:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
It would have been more helpful if you read all replies in this thread. There is ample evidence for one who is looking for guidance. There is no difference of opinion among the companions ( may Allah be pleased with them all) on the punishment of apostates - as a matter of fact all four Caliphs put this punishment into practice and they knew Islam more than you and I. Let me quote just few well known examples:

  • Abu Bakr (May Allah be pleased with him) fought against apostates who denounced Islam after Prophet's death and started worship idols.
  • In an incident, ‘Umar (May Allah be pleased with him) did not deny the punishment of killing the apostate but asked about whether they gave him some time to repent, and when they denied it, he criticized them for it. If ‘Umar’s opinion was that the apostate should not be killed, he would have condemned them for killing the apostate, period, and would have said something along the lines of: Why did you kill him while he did not deserve it?
  • Why did 'Ali ibn Abi Talib (May Allah be pleased with him) killed an old man who was a Christian, accepted Islam and then apostatized? This incident is mentioned in Abdul-razzaq's musannaf, no. 18709. The man was presented to ‘Ali ibn Abi Ṭalib. ‘Ali said to him: Perhaps, you have apostatized to gain a share of the inheritance, and then return to Islam?’ He said: No. He said: You might have wanted to marry a woman, but they refused to marry her to you. So, you wanted to marry her, then return to Islam? He said: No. Then ‘Ali said: Return to Islam. He said: No, until I meet Christ, I will not do so. Then ‘Ali ordered that this neck be stricken, and his inheritance was paid to his Muslim sons. As it appears from this incident, the old apostate man did not show treachery or declare a war against the community, all he committed was mere apostasy. ‘Ali ibn Abi Ṭalib tried to pardon him, but he did not respond, so, he inflicted the fixed punishment upon him.
  • There is another famous hadith according to which Ali (May Allah be pleased with him) punished apostates by burning them alive in the fire. Those who were burned alive apostatized from Islam and did not fight or declare war against the Muslims. All that they did was that they worshipped idols and claimed that ‘Ali is divine. In this incident, both ‘Ali and Ibn ‘Abbas agreed on the killing of apostates. This is a major incident that was obviously known to everyone at that time, and yet no companion denied their punishment.


There are so many other incidents I can quote from the lives of the companions alone to prove that capital punishment for apostates was widely accepted and practiced by those who learned Islam directly from Prophet (peace be upon him). They knew that it is commandment of Allah and they would simply obey whatever was taught to them by Prophet (peace be upon him). We tend to use our intellect which is heavily influenced by Western values & hence we may see these acts as barbaric but in reality it is not. It is justice of Allah & in so many places in Quran Allah has mentioned that corruption in society is far bigger crime them killing a human being who is spreading this corruption.

There is also no difference of opinion among all four Sunni madhabs and even the Shias agree to capital punishment for apostates. I hope that you find this helpful.
Ma'aSalaam
I'm totally blocked, now I don't know what to say anymore.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-13-2020, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HowManyMore
But as far as I know the Prophet (Sallallahu alayhi wasallam) never applied this punishment to apostates himself.
It was narrated from Mus'ab bin Sa'd that his father said:
"On the day of the Conquest of Makkah, the Messenger of Allah [SAW] granted amnesty to the people, except four men and two women. He said: 'Kill them, even if you find them clinging to the covers of Ka'bah.' (They were) 'Ikrimah bin Abi Jahl, 'Abdullah bin Khatal, Miqyas bin Subabah and 'Abdullah bin Sa'd bin Abi As-Sarh. 'Abdullah bin Khatl was caught while he was clinging to the covers of Ka'bah. Sa'eed bin Huraith and 'Ammar bin Yasir both rushed toward him, but Sa'eed, who was the younger of the two, got there before 'Ammar, and he killed him. Miqyas bin Subabah was caught by the people in the marketplace, and they killed him. 'Ikrimah traveled by sea, and he was caught in a storm. The crew of the ship said: 'Turn sincerely toward Allah, for your (false) gods cannot help you at all in this situation.' 'Ikrimah said: 'By Allah, if nothing came to save me at sea except sincerity toward Allah then nothing else will save me on land. O Allah, I promise You that if You save me from this predicament I will go to Muhammad [SAW] and put my hand in his, and I am sure that I will find him generous and forgiving.' So he came, and accepted Islam. 'Abdullah (bin Sa'd) bin Abi Sarh hid in the house of 'Uthman bin 'Affan, and when the Messenger of Allah [SAW] called the people to give their Oath of Allegiance, he brought him, and made him stand before the Prophet [SAW]. He ('Uthman) said: 'O Messenger of Allah! Accept the allegiance of 'Abdullah.' He raised his head and looked at him three times, refusing his allegiance each time, then he accepted his allegiance after three times. Then he turned to his Companions and said: 'Was there not any sensible man among you who would get up when he saw me refusing to give him my hand and kill him?' They said: 'We did not know, O Messenger of Allah, what was in your heart. Why did you not gesture to us with your eyes?' He said: 'It is not befitting for a Prophet that his eyes be deceitful.'"

Grade: Hasan (Darussalam)
Reference: Sunan an-Nasa'i 4067
In-book reference: Book 37, Hadith 102
English translation: Vol. 5, Book 37, Hadith 4072
https://sunnah.com/nasai/37/102

In another hadith:
Narrated Anas bin Malik (ra):
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) entered (Makkah) in the year of the Conquest (of Makkah) wearing a helmet over his head. After he took it off, a man came and said, "Ibn Khatal is clinging to the curtains of the Ka'bah." The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Kill him."

Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 3044
In-book reference: Book 56, Hadith 250
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 280
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/250

The question is who is Ibn Khatal who is mentioned in two above hadiths? He was an apostate as mentioned in famous book "ar-Raheeq al-Makhtum."
Miqyas bin Subabah mentioned in first hadith was also an apostate.
'Abdullah bin Sa'd bin Abi As-Sarh was also an apostate. Refer to this hadith for more details.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-13-2020, 06:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HowManyMore
Wikipedia says not. Most countries have abolished the practice of capital punishment entirely.
Because Muslims countries are too afraid to implement Shariah & that's also the reason why Muslims are humiliated all over the world.
Look what happened to Brunei? They announced to implement Shariah law and entire world including Muslim countries put sanctions on them and forced them not to implement so called barbaric punishments. Countries like Pakistan were formed at the name of Islam and when we see their laws its most influenced by British government and have nothing to do with Islam.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-13-2020, 06:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nitro Zeus
I'm totally blocked, now I don't know what to say anymore.
Perhaps you should look deeper and see what's the wisdom of this punishment? Once you understand that you will find that Allah is in fact the Most Wise and the Most Just. Non Muslims think that they know better than Allah. That try to justify their actions by saying we are the peace makers and Muslims are barbaric and are spreading corruption in the society. The reality is quite the opposite as Allah mentioned in the Quran:

Quran 2:11
وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لَا تُفْسِدُوا۟ فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ قَالُوٓا۟ إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُصْلِحُونَ


And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."

Quran 2:12
أَلَآ إِنَّهُمْ هُمُ ٱلْمُفْسِدُونَ وَلَٰكِن لَّا يَشْعُرُونَ


Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not.

You can find the reasoning for capital punishment for apostates in the following verse.

Quran 2:191

وَٱلْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ ٱلْقَتْلِ

...Fitnah is worse than killing...

The message is repeated again in verse 2:216 & 2:217.

Those who say that punishment of apostasy is not mentioned in Quran, should look into Quran's verse 5:33 & I have explained in this in my previous posts ( please refer to post # 25 & post # 13 in this thread).
And Allah knows the best!

Ma'aSalaam
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HowManyMore
07-13-2020, 06:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
Because Muslims countries are too afraid to implement Shariah & that's also the reason why Muslims are humiliated all over the world.
Look what happened to Brunei? They announced to implement Shariah law and entire world including Muslim countries put sanctions on them and forced them not to implement so called barbaric punishments. Countries like Pakistan were formed at the name of Islam and when we see their laws its most influenced by British government and have nothing to do with Islam.
Yes well they're also waging unislamic war like Saudi Arabia on Yemen so what can you expect.
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'Abdullah
07-13-2020, 08:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nitro Zeus
I'm totally blocked, now I don't know what to say anymore.
Now that we know that the punishment of apostasy has a well established evidence both in Quran and Sunnah, perhaps we should look into the wisdom why there is a capital punishment for apostasy? Does the Punishment for Apostasy Contradict Freedom and Justice?

We need to understand that the punishment for apostasy is not prescribed to change the convictions or hearts of people, but rather factors in the religious, social, and psychological interests it serves. The following is an overview of some of these interests:

MAINTAINING SECRED BOUNDARIES OF THE LEIGION:
Every society sets out its own identity and defines the boundaries of that which no one is allowed to traverse, let alone compromise. Such boundaries are sanctified and designed to go in line with the vision and
objectives of the society. The diversity of such sacred boundaries resulted in creating differences among nations. Islam, as a divine religion, aims at addressing the relationship of humans with their Creator, their fellow humans, and their surrounding universe. To this end, it has defined its own sacred boundaries, which scholars consider the five main necessities that Islamic law must preserve, which are the best interests of the religion of Islam, life of humans, progeny and honor, sanity, and reasoning, and wealth of people. For this reason, Islam stands against anything that would or could jeopardize any of these five.
Its legislation considered these five areas and based its general provisions on the common scenarios, and does not factor into consideration the exceptions to the rule. For example, Islam considers marriage a sacred bond whose boundaries must not be violated in order to preserve the progeny and honor of humans. Nonetheless, if a sterile man fornicated with a sterile woman, or a man who has no tribe or any living family member committed adultery with a woman who has no tribe or any living family member, they will still be subject to the fixed punishments prescribed by Islam, even if such relationships were consensual, no one’s honor was harmed, or any offspring affected. This is because the act per se violates one of the five scared areas that Islam commits to protect.
Likewise, Islam works to preserve the individual wealth of people and prescribes a severe fixed punishment for whoever breaches this scared area even if it caused no harm to others. For example, if a man decided to steal from rich people trivial amounts of money that will not harm them, the fixed punishment for theft will still be applied to him, for he violated the sanctity of individuals' wealth.
The more significant the sacred area is, the more attention Islam gives to preserving and protecting it, and the religion of Islam is considered the greatest of all sacred areas. The reason it earned this high status is that it serves as the nexus which connects humans with Allah, and keeps them close to Him. That being said, the apostate, regardless of their social affiliation, is actually violating the sanctity of the religion and the bond that forms the Muslim community; and hence, deserves such a severe punishment. Islam goes further to establish this principle, as it shows zero tolerance to apostasy, and it enforces the punishment for apostasy on everyone, including the head of an Islamic state. If the ruler apostatized and manifested it in public, then the Muslims are obliged to remove him and punish him.
The fact that there are some societies that do not punish apostasy and consider it an acceptable act and a matter of personal freedom because they deem religion as an unsacred area that anyone can transgress, does not mean that Islam has to adjust its rulings accordingly. This is because Islam is not required to be compatible with other societies since it is an independent religion with its own entity, sanctities, specific goals, and integrated structure. For this reason, it is inappropriate to judge it according to the norms of another entirely different system.
Some societies do not consider sex outside marriage and/or drinking liquor as immoral; therefore, it would be beyond comprehension to demand Islam to accept others’ opposing views. Doing so would eventually melt the identity of religion away, and Islam will become just a mirror to the developments and perceptions of other societies.

This raises the question about the reason why Islam does not apply the punishment for apostasy on the original disbeliever if the purpose is to preserve the religion of Islam?

The comparison per se is invalid, for a person who has never entered Islam is different from a person who has embraced Islam and then left it. The former did not pledge to comply with Islamic law, contrary to the latter, who pledged to comply with and respect Islamic laws, but then violated them. Analogous to this is a man who enters a country on a visa that requires him to comply with its laws, and then he broke the law, as opposed to a man who never entered that country in the first place; hence, its laws cannot be binding on him. The other difference is that the apostate has experienced Islam and then denied it, while the disbeliever who has never been a Muslim does not understand the reality of Islam, as he never experienced it from within.

PRESERVING THE PUBLIC ORDER OF THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY:
Preserving the public order of the Muslim community is one of the wisdoms of legislating the punishment for apostasy in Islam, though it’s not necessary that it be applicable in every case. Not only does apostasy breach the most sacred area in Islam, but it also represents a form of public disorder, for Islam is not only a heart-based belief, nor is it just personal worship, but is rather a combination of belief and a system together which is binding on the Muslim community; it cannot be transgressed and violated.

It is known that faith and creed represent the foundational pillar of Islam upon which all other systems are designed in the Muslim communities. Thus, when a person declares his apostasy, he is rebelling against the systems of Islam and is exhibiting non-compliance with its original foundation upon which all living systems are built.
Given the importance of faith for the human being and the society at large, apostasy is not a personal and abstract state of mind; rather, it is a compound, complex process that involves changing allegiance, identity, and affiliation. This meaning was indicated in the statement of the Prophet (peace be upon him) when he described the apostate as a person
who leaves his religion, departing the community.
This indicates that apostasy is not just a harmless personal decision that a person made overnight; rather, it is a total makeover leading the person to diverge from the public order of a society that submits to the laws and legislations of Islam. This is because Islam, as a system, considers the subtle reality and potentiality of actions. For that matter, it focuses on the essence of things, and not merely superficial words and slogans.
Islam considers apostasy high treason and a capital crime, for which the penalty is death. However, the punishment cannot be implemented except if the defendant insisted on his apostasy and refused to reconsider his decision. In contrast, most other regimes and state laws do not show this level of tolerance in capital crimes or even accept to give the defendant a second chance and spare his life.
The objective of Islam is to preserve the life of human beings, and therefore, it encouraged prolonging the waiting period in the hopes that the apostate would retract his position and return to Islam.

The suggestion that a person may decide to apostatize but still comply with the public order and state laws cannot be forwarded as an exception that should be considered. This is because apostasy per se is acknowledged as a form of rebellion against the Muslim state. The compliance of the apostate with the norms and laws of the society is considered a rare case; and rare cases are not considered in Islam when deriving rulings, as explained previously.

PROTECTING SOCIETY FROM PSYCHOLOGICAL & SPIRITUAL HARM
Knowing that Muslims hold Islam as the spine of their life and view it as the only truth that Allah accepts, apostasy comes as an attempt to harm the sentiments and hearts of believers. This is because apostasy is a direct rejection of the religion after it has been experienced, which gives the impression that Islam is found false after it has been experienced, and implicitly degrades the Muslims for upholding the religion of Islam.
Just as the crime of adultery damages the reputation and honor of others, the crime of apostasy causes harm to the other Muslims since religion is the greatest priority of all Muslims. The harm is noted in the impact of apostasy on the immediate Muslim family members of the apostate, and the Muslim society at large, let alone that it can cast doubt into the hearts of Muslims whose knowledge of religion is poor. Those believers have more of a right to be considered in terms of spiritual and sentimental protection than the one who decided to change his religion and faith.


OFFERING PROACTIVE REMEDIES:
One of the main interests that Islam aims to achieve from legislating the punishment for apostasy is to leave no loophole for ill-hearted people. The benefit of this approach is evident, as will be explained below:

  • The enemies of Islam spare no effort and work day and night to cast doubts into the hearts of Muslims to take them outside the fold of Islam. Allah has warned against their plan in several places in the Qur’ān, such as:
    Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. [Al-Baqarah: 109]
    &
    And they will continue to fight you until they turn you back from your religion if they are able. [Baqarah: 217]
    &
    A faction of the people of the Scripture wish they could mislead you. But they do not mislead except themselves, and they perceive [it] not. [Al-Imran: 69].
    The Muslim who changes his religion is helping the enemies of Islam because he serves their interest and helps them in their plot against the Muslims. The example of the apostate is like a soldier who left his troops to join the forces of the enemy. For this reason, Islam dictated precautionary steps to protect against the possibility of such an outcome.
  • Had apostasy been left without punishment, the enemies of Islam would have exploited this loophole, and converted in large groups to Islam and then apostatized to cast doubts into the hearts of Muslims whose religiosity and knowledge are not strong enough to know about their hidden agenda. The enemies of Islam used this method during the time of the Prophet, and Allah has described it in His statement:
    And a faction of the People of the Scripture say [to each other], "Believe in that which was revealed to the believers at the beginning of the day and reject it at its end that perhaps they will abandon their religion [Al-Imran: 72]
    The purpose of this plot was to give ignorant Muslims the impression that they left Islam because they found it imperfect and has a defect. As humans, we neither know the unseen, nor we are aware of what people have in their hearts, and we can only judge others by what appears to us. Islam did not differentiate between the different types of apostates, nor between those who apostatized to deceive the Muslims, and those who had different reasons. So, Islam made the ruling general to leave no loophole for anyone and make the solution definite.
  • The absence of punishment could encourage some Muslims to manipulate the system to evade religious obligations such as paying the obligatory alms or any other obligatory act of worship, and then return to Islam.
  • Islam considers the potential benefits and harms, and after weighting both aspects, it decides the best interests to serve. The punishment for apostasy will indeed result in some harm because his death will obviously affect the apostate’s family, and the Qur’an describes death as a matter of hardship; nevertheless, the benefits it brings forth are greater. All sensible people would agree that punishments of all types will cause harm, whether to the one being punished or his family, but no one would say that this entails abolishing the penal code and the system of punishments altogether.


Islam is committed to protecting the lives of humans and dictates strict conditions that must be met before fixed punishments are carried out. It even obligated the Muslims to suspend the punishment once there is a doubt relating to the case. This shows that Islam does not view death as an objective in itself, but rather as a means to protect the religion and the public interest of the society, for public interest takes precedence over the individual interest.


The above mentioned points reveal that Islam has considered all aspects, be they social, psychological, logical, or religious, in its legislation of the punishment for apostasy. All of which manifest the ultimate wisdom of Islam and highlight its superiority over man-made laws, which cannot accommodate the changing nature of societies with all their needs and differences. Islam aims to rectify the affairs of individuals and society, and gives precedence to the public interest if it will conflict with the individual interest of a person. Offering the apostate the chance to acquit himself by simply repenting from his crime proves the keen interest of Islam to protect his life. However, if the apostate insists on his position, the punishment for apostasy becomes inevitable to protect the public order and the interest of other believers (i.e. Islam strives to reduce the evil and bring forth the good to the best of its capacity).

Failing to realize the divine wisdom and the different dimensions of the penal code in Islam, made many people, including some Islamists, find some of the punishments problematic; and hence hasten to deny them. Our inability to understand the divine wisdom of the divine system should not make us deny or interpret it according to our own variables but should encourage us to exert more effort to contemplate and investigate the finer nuances.

I really hope that you find all this helpful. If you have any questions/concerns, please feel free to bring those up for discussion.
Ma'aSalaam


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