Going to umrah with a magician

[BNew_user]

Is it permissible to go to umrah with a person who is clearly a magician( and clearly engages in acts of shirk ) especially when you are a minor ?

[RisingLight]

what an odd question, how are you even supposed to travel if you are a minor?...and how can he enter mecca?,mecca is muslim-only access

[BNew_user]

That person is a MUSLIM , but clearly engages in shirk , astrology, witchcraft etc

[*charisma*]

That person is a MUSLIM , but clearly engages in shirk , astrology, witchcraft etc

Anyone engaging in witchcraft and shirk is no longer Muslim.

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[keiv]

That person is a MUSLIM , but clearly engages in shirk , astrology, witchcraft etc

Is this a case of denial, confusion or both?

[Ümit]

Anyone engaging in witchcraft and shirk is no longer Muslim.

its not up to you and me to say who is muslim and who is not. only Allah can be the judge of that.
if a person says he is a muslim...we must treat him like one.
that is what I know...

[*charisma*]

its not up to you and me to say who is muslim and who is not. only Allah can be the judge of that.
if a person says he is a muslim...we must treat him like one.
that is what I know...

Anyone who actively partakes in black magic and shirk has gone outside the fold of Islam and therefore is no longer Muslim. If a person merely believes in the words of what these people say or meets with them, he himself is considered a disbeliever, let alone someone who actually commits these acts.
As long as they are in this act, they are not Muslim. This whole "don't judge" thing is not really relevant here. If you are openly transgressing against Allah, then you are cursed.
I have no sympathy for people who engage in these actions, in fact, I hope they are punished severely in this world and the next, and may they never get near Makkah with their transgressions.
The Quran and sunnah are very clear about the fate of people who engage in these practices.

[Ümit]

Anyone who actively partakes in black magic and shirk has gone outside the fold of Islam and therefore is no longer Muslim. If a person merely believes in the words of what these people say or meets with them, he himself is considered a disbeliever, let alone someone who actually commits these acts.
As long as they are in this act, they are not Muslim. This whole "don't judge" thing is not really relevant here. If you are openly transgressing against Allah, then you are cursed.
I have no sympathy for people who engage in these actions, in fact, I hope they are punished severely in this world and the next, and may they never get near Makkah with their transgressions.
The Quran and sunnah are very clear about the fate of people who engage in these practices.

i partially agree. such people are beyond the folds of Islam. however firstly from the original post it is not clear whether this person is really involved with black magic...or merely an amateur illusionist.
secondly...meeting and interacting with such people is something different than saying "he is or is not a muslim"

[BNew_user]

That person is my father, I did not deny anything , I do not want to go to umrah with him as he regularly visits astrologers,magicians and engages in those acts.

[*charisma*]

i partially agree. such people are beyond the folds of Islam. however firstly from the original post it is not clear whether this person is really involved with black magic...or merely an amateur illusionist.

He said that he commits acts of shirk therefore it's not "tv magic."
I really don't understand your second comment, but I still stand by what I said. Anyone who engages in these acts, supports them, seeks them out, etc. is not muslim.
I don't think you understand the graveness of black magic and shirk.
If the whole "he's not muslim" thing bothers you, then your offense is in the wrong place.

[*charisma*]

That person is my father, I did not deny anything , I do not want to go to umrah with him as he regularly visits astrologers,magicians and engages in those acts.

Allah knows best but I don't think going to Umrah with your father is impermissible. You are worshipping Allah there individually, and perhaps you may make du'a for him in the hopes that Allah will guide him. You should try to advise your father not to commit these acts and to understand their danger on him and his soul.

[Ümit]

He said that he commits acts of shirk therefore it's not "tv magic."
I really don't understand your second comment, but I still stand by what I said. Anyone who engages in these acts, supports them, seeks them out, etc. is not muslim.
I don't think you understand the graveness of black magic and shirk.
If the whole "he's not muslim" thing bothers you, then your offense is in the wrong place.

no what bothers me is that I always used to say that shias were not muslims and then someone pointed out that no matter what that person believes...if he says that he is a muslim...then you have to take his word for that and treat him as a muslim.
so i was wrong at that point and I learned my lesson then.

I am merely passing this lesson on...not that I want argue with you about this.

[RisingLight]

its not up to you and me to say who is muslim and who is not. only Allah can be the judge of that.
if a person says he is a muslim...we must treat him like one.
that is what I know...

Yes its not up to her or you or me or anyone else to say who is muslim and who is not.But we follow Muhammad saws and we judge based on the clues he gave us.Some of which are

Muslim narrated in his Saheeh that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever goes to a fortune-teller and asks him about something, his prayer will not be accepted for forty days.”

And it was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever goes to a soothsayer and believes what he says has disbelieved in that which was revealed to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).” [Abu Dawood and the four authors of al-Sunan].

Al-Hakim narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever goes to a fortune-teller or soothsayer and believes what he says has disbelieved in that which was revealed to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).”

And it was narrated that ‘Imran ibn Husayn (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “He does not belong to us who observes bird omens or has that done for him, or who seeks divination or who has that done for him, or who practices witchcraft or has that done for him. Whoever goes to a soothsayer and believes what he says has disbelieved in that which was revealed to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).” [al-Bazzaar].

If this guy is telling the truth then his father is not a muslim and he is not allowed to enter Mecca,and if he practices witchcraft then his head should be cut.All scholars agree such acts take one out of islam,its so simple.

[BNew_user]

I told him that one should not do these things yet he still goes to seek advice from astrologers and magicians.

- - - Updated - - -

And does exactly what the astrologers and magicians say him to do.

[Ümit]

Yes its not up to her or you or me or anyone else to say who is muslim and who is not.But we follow Muhammad saws and we judge based on the clues he gave us.Some of which are

Muslim narrated in his Saheeh that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever goes to a fortune-teller and asks him about something, his prayer will not be accepted for forty days.”

And it was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever goes to a soothsayer and believes what he says has disbelieved in that which was revealed to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).” [Abu Dawood and the four authors of al-Sunan].

Al-Hakim narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever goes to a fortune-teller or soothsayer and believes what he says has disbelieved in that which was revealed to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).”

And it was narrated that ‘Imran ibn Husayn (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “He does not belong to us who observes bird omens or has that done for him, or who seeks divination or who has that done for him, or who practices witchcraft or has that done for him. Whoever goes to a soothsayer and believes what he says has disbelieved in that which was revealed to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).” [al-Bazzaar].

If this guy is telling the truth then his father is not a muslim and he is not allowed to enter Mecca,and if he practices witchcraft then his head should be cut.All scholars agree such acts take one out of islam,its so simple.

yes I am aware of these hadeeth and I am not arguing about this. these ahadeeth do not apply in this situation because this person does not go to his magician father and asks about witchcraft magic or astro stuff...he doesn't believe in that garbage...but it is his father...so he must keep his politeness and must obey his father.
remember that the father of one of our prophets was an idol maker. and this prophet always obeyed his father if it didn't go against Islaam.
and another thing.
your religion is not in your passport. If they ask him what his religion is...and he says "I'm muslim alhamdulillah" then nobody can deny him access to Mecca.

[RisingLight]

yes I am aware of these hadeeth and I am not arguing about this. these ahadeeth do not apply in this situation because this person does not go to his magician father and asks about witchcraft magic or astro stuff...he doesn't believe in that garbage...but it is his father...so he must keep his politeness and must obey his father.
remember that the father of one of our prophets was an idol maker. and this prophet always obeyed his father if it didn't go against Islaam.
and another thing.
your religion is not in your passport. If they ask him what his religion is...and he says "I'm muslim alhamdulillah" then nobody can deny him access to Mecca.

wow,i am suprised that you are a muslim and wouldnt at least feel offended that these kind of people who according to the sharia should be killed,or at least the people who do shirk,bypass the "filter" and enter our most sacred place on earth.I am not saying that he is not able to enter,you can enter in a lot of ways nowdays,im saying he MUST NOT!.Its not allowed for him.

And about the first part of your comment,how come these hadiths dont apply here? The guy is clearly saying his father goes to the magicians and engages in those acts. Do you know his father more than him?
He is keeping politeness.I am not seeing him saying any bad word towards his father.And his father actions go agaisnt islam so he is asking for guidance,what to do.I think he is doing the right thing.May Allah guide him and make him a very good muslim.

[Ümit]

wow,i am suprised that you are a muslim and wouldnt at least feel offended that these kind of people who according to the sharia should be killed,or at least the people who do shirk,bypass the "filter" and enter our most sacred place on earth.I am not saying that he is not able to enter,you can enter in a lot of ways nowdays,im saying he MUST NOT!.Its not allowed for him.

And about the first part of your comment,how come these hadiths dont apply here? The guy is clearly saying his father goes to the magicians and engages in those acts. Do you know his father more than him?
He is keeping politeness.I am not seeing him saying any bad word towards his father.And his father actions go agaisnt islam so he is asking for guidance,what to do.I think he is doing the right thing.May Allah guide him and make him a very good muslim.

Don't be agitated brother...I am on your side...but you are taking the wrong conclusions.
of course I am offended that such people mushriks or kafirs enter our holy places.
I am just saying that we should be very very carefull with who we call non muslim or kafir...because if it turns out that that person had imaan with the weight of an atom...then you will be the one who is the misbeliever.
further...I agree with you that the father shouldn't go to Mecca.
about the hadeeth you posted:
in this case the father himself is the magician. the poster doesn't go to his father and asks him about astrology or so...that is why I said that those hadeeth do not apply here.
the case of the father is clear...he is involved with magic...astro stuff and other garbage and therefore we can conclude that he probably is a disbeliever.

but still...we put ourselves unnessessarily on thin ice when we say "the father is a kafir".
let Allah be the judge of that.

in this case...I also believe that OP should not go to Mecca with his father.

['Abdullah]

A lot of this has to do with ignorance and cultural beliefs both of which have nothing to do with Islam. It is common in sub continent for Muslims to go to the graves and expect the dead to solve their issues. If we call them disbelievers, half of the Muslims easily fall into this category. We also find majority of the Muslims don’t pray while Hadith clearly tells us that difference between a Muslim and non Muslim is the prayer. If we call them non-Muslims then I am sure majority of the Muslims who label themselves as Muslims will be declared non Muslims. The best thing is to educate people, have a 10-15 minutes session discussing Quran and authentic hadiths in a family setting. Try to change their mind set, as the problem is deep rooted. We need to get rid of Hindu culture from Islam and need to understand what Tawheed means. Teaching correct aqeeda would be of great help.
As far as going for ‘Umra, I don’t see any reason why you can’t go with him? May be it will help him to see and learn real teachings of Islam through this journey. Do the best you can to bring him to the right teachings of Islam and make dua for him.
And Allah knows the best!
Ma’aSalaam

[IslamLife00]

I hope your father repents and stops going to magicians, astrologer or even performing such practices himself.
because if he continues, his deeds will be in vain - that includes the Umrah that he is planning to go with you.
Your deeds, including if you go to Umrah, inshaAllah will be accepted as long as you stay in the path of Islam.

And indeed it has been revealed to you (O Muhammad SAW), as it was to those (Allah's Messengers) before you:
"If you join others in worship with Allah, (then) surely (all) your deeds will be in vain, and you will certainly be among the losers." Az-Zumar 65

[Supernova]

Is it permissible to go to umrah with a person who is clearly a magician( and clearly engages in acts of shirk ) especially when you are a minor ?

Asalaamualaykum

It is permissible for you to do Umrah with your father.

The acceptance of your Umrah has nothing to do with your father, or the pilot who flew you there or the Taxi or Bus driver !!!

Use this opportunity whilst in a place of immense Barakah to explain to your father with respect about the issue at hand. Only Allah SWT alone will decide your father's fate and judgement is solely the prerogative of our creator.