format_quote Originally Posted by
Eddy
Clear rebuttals?Ok, let's put that to a test.What was the clear rebuttal to this question?You believe that the Quran has been preserved unchanged since the time it was created, don't you?
I belive that the divine thinking and relaying of communication is not limited to any human language, and that it is interpreted into human language as it is conveyed to humans.
The lack of the letters "p" , and "ch" in the Arabic alphabet, are logical evidences which strengthen this thinking, since any word or name containing those sounds would have to be converted to sounds which fit from the available Arabic alphabet of the time.
Eg. Quran, Ch.11 V.44
The word was either historically called Judee by humans but slowly changed to Chudee, or was or was historically Chudee but conveyed to the Prophet in terms of what he could convey, then written down as Judee when penned due to limitations of language.
If the second of the two logical possibilities is true, or if there had been such a similar case, it follows that Allah :swt: conveys guidance to humans with more emphasis on practicality than on binary accuracy. The same line of thinking would part answer following questions about how different communications came at different times but were preserved differently by humans (sometimes not too well).
I see the Quran as a communication and a beam lighting a dark road for humans, rather than as a computer with data on it where one transcription difference definitely spells disaster.
Where Perfect Allah :swt: is communicating with imperfect humans, and is helping them walk straight.
Therefore, although i have no reason to believe that there are any mistakes -i wouldn't be too flustered (rather would be ingrigued and want to know more) if anybody could prove that there were any, and considering that it is the brightest beam of light amongst others on the aforementioned dark path, i would consider it foolish to dismiss it over a trifle.
Al-Qasas 28:49
قُلْ فَأْتُوا۟ بِكِتَٰبٍ مِّنْ عِندِ ٱللَّهِ هُوَ أَهْدَىٰ مِنْهُمَآ أَتَّبِعْهُ إِن كُنتُمْ صَٰدِقِينَ
Say, "Then bring a scripture from Allah which is more guiding than either of them that I may follow it, if you should be truthful."
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format_quote Originally Posted by
Eddy
That because Muslims preserved every word of it thru time.Not only that but Muslims maintained their culture thru all this time.My problem with this:How come Muslims did such a great job preserving the Quran and their culture after Muhammad but didn't do the same thing after all the other prophets?
Emphasis and importance placed by humans on recording and preservation through writing is an evolving phenomenon, it increased with time and from lessons learned.
It is logical to conclude that people who preserved records of events and divine communications through writing earlier, did so according to the best of their ability and hindsight at the time - which was far less efficient when conoared to today.
You may note that the companions of the prophet Muhammad :saws: had to sometimes be told NOT to write everything he said - out of an apprehension that those words might be confused with Quran - which the Prophet :saws: himself was having recorded through writing and memorization.
This indicates that the importance of preserving records through writing had come to be appreciated heavily by the people at the time the Quran was revealed - since he was no king, and not amongst the richest of his people.
Regarding the lack of confusion through different "versions" - the very first generation of companions (who lived and walked with the Prophet :saws: ) had an authorized copy enforced on all governorates in their lifetimes when interpretations in different dialects began to become a problem of moment - this could easily have been due to the lessons they had learned from observing the situation of those who were following previously revealed scriptures.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Eddy
You claimed Allah gave the same message to all the other prophets and at each of those times people were initially Muslims.
A person who accepts and acknowledges the overall authority of Allah :swt: and works to obey the guidance of Allah :swt; is a Muslim. A person who uses older laws of previous generations despite knowing that other updates have been added more recently by the same divine source - are not Muslims even if they inwardly believe that Allah :swt: is One.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Eddy
Mysteriously each time not only people forgot about the islamic message but also about the Islamic culture and instead turned into a more Jewish like culture.That is hard to explain, isn't it?
Not really difficult actually. There arrive stages where people get lax, then if those who observe that things are going downhill manage to do something about it -they usually begin to enact more rigid laws and sharper definitions of blurry lines, often depending on the state of emergency, then if those who follow afterwards understand that those laws were contextual to the situation at the time of enactment, they can continue to prosper as long as they recognise the foundations and evolve while basing themselves on the original lessons, and using precedents that were later set as references and not law.
But the issue is kingship and precedent, human kings and judges are sometimes lazy or otherwise averse to over-ruling precedent - it is often considered radical or controversial, and risks rebellion and questioning of authority. The history of the jews carries with it a history of often unbroken chains of kings and incrementally added rulings which were rarely discarded once added.
That is why i believe Muslims are now cautioned to make such distinction:
Al-Ma'idah 5:44إِنَّآ أَنزَلْنَا ٱلتَّوْرَىٰةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌۚ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا ٱلنَّبِيُّونَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُوا۟ لِلَّذِينَ هَادُوا۟ وَٱلرَّبَّٰنِيُّونَ وَٱلْأَحْبَارُ بِمَا ٱسْتُحْفِظُوا۟ مِن كِتَٰبِ ٱللَّهِ وَكَانُوا۟ عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَآءَۚ فَلَا تَخْشَوُا۟ ٱلنَّاسَ وَٱخْشَوْنِ وَلَا تَشْتَرُوا۟ بِـَٔايَٰتِى ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًاۚ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فَأُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ هُمُ ٱلْكَٰفِرُونَ
Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto.
So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price.
And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.
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9:31ٱتَّخَذُوٓا۟ أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَٰنَهُمْ أَرْبَابًا مِّن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ وَٱلْمَسِيحَ ٱبْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَمَآ أُمِرُوٓا۟ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُوٓا۟ إِلَٰهًا وَٰحِدًاۖ لَّآ إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَۚ سُبْحَٰنَهُۥ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
English - Sahih International
They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary.
And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.
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It's not too difficult to imagine a scenario in which people who become overly rigid in their legislation and imagination of infallibility of their kings and scholars - accuse later prophets of being heretical or goy, and demand that such Prophets toe the line of kingly tradition and precedent if they are to be deemed acceptable.
The denial and killing of such Prophets is a testimony to their egotistic denial and the fact that they would rather teach God their religion than learn it from Him.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Eddy
The same happened when Jesus came around.According to your version at the beginning the message to Jesus was similar to the message to Muhammad.Am I correct?
In terms of overall essence - yes, however, the evolution of the people and understanding of tribal relevance was a lot less mature before than later, therefore the latter was more fitted to be implemented internationally.
At the time of the first coming of Jesus :saws: , untethering oneself from one's tribe was seen as treacherous by most, and almost suicidal considering that a person in a foreign land without tribal backing was prey to unknown traditions and legislation - or whim of the tribes which they interacted with.
Whereas at the time of Muhammad :saws: and after it was a lot safer and easier for people to travel far and wide, therefore it is logical to assume that divine legislation during the stage of the Quran could bear high contrast with all previously revealed divine laws, guidelines, and advice - even though each was unique to it's stage in human and community evolution in contrast to others.
The Muslims went head to head with their own tribe members based on law - despite it appearing as previously unimaginable to some elders.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Eddy
But again mysteriously the very resilient Muslims forgot about the Islamic teachings and their Islamic culture and instead turned into what today is the very different Christian beliefs and culture.
You'd have to research the understanding of people around Jesus :saws: and the frame of mind cultured by history of the significantly later roman councils and the primitive paganry of a long line of roman kings up until then in order to understand that evolution/defacement.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Eddy
History remembers the culture of the people after Jesus and Moses and others but history mysteriously forgot all about the existence of some Islamic culture at all those times.What would be your answer to that or what do you think was the clear rebuttal to this question?
History does not remember, forget, or say anything, since history is a chain of transpired events, it is rather people that keep historical records who are often prone to err. But that's just how it is innit, we have to make do by researching, being sceptical, critical, eager to find and accept what is more true and sound, then strive to do better than those before us due to the hindsights they left for us from failiures and triumphs.
......God knows what needed rebutting if there was anything there to rebut though.