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Ümit
08-13-2020, 12:33 PM
Selamun Aleykum dear brothers and sisters,

The last couple of days I've seen this subject on Islamicboard, and I generally understand what qadr is, and how the relation is between qadr and free will is, and that what in qadr is written dependent is whether we make dua and whether we put effort to it.

However, I have a hard time understanding that dua can change qadr.
I've checked on these hadeeths and they are indeed hasaan...so it must be true.

the problem however, somehow I have trouble understanding it.
Let me explain.

in qadr is written what will happen to you, things like where to live, when and how you die, will you have kids, will you marry, etc, etc, untill the smallest details.
This is already written long before we are born.
most of them are dependent on your choices that you will make during your life, whether you put effort in it and whether you will make dua for it or not.

Allah is of course omniscient...that means...He knows beforehand that one day you will make dua to get something you really want, and you will put effort in it...and that is why He is able to write your qadr before you were born...
so doesn't that mean that qadr cannot be changed?
again...why would allah write you an original qadr, and wait to see whether you make dua or not and then change your qadr?
so from what I understand so far, this doesn't add up.
to put it boldly...that would mean either Allah is not omniscient (Tovbe estagfirullah) or qadr cannot be changed with dua...

or a third option which I am not seeing untill now...
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'Abdullah
08-13-2020, 12:49 PM
WaAlaikum Assalam WaRahmatullhi WaBarakatuhu Akhi,

Hope you are doing well. Please see video below and I hope this would help you understand the Hadith in question:

Jazakallah khair for asking this question.
Ma’aSalaam
Reply

'Abdullah
08-13-2020, 07:00 PM
To put it in simple words, the decreed result is preordained along with its proper means, which lead to its occurrence. One of these means is the supplication.
It is not preordained just like that, without any means (leading to its occurrence), rather it is preordained along with its proper means (which will ensure its occurrence).
So when a person comes across the means, the decreed matter will come to pass. And if he does not come across those means, the decreed matter is denied.

For example, satisfying one’s appetite and quenching one’s thirst are preordained with (the means of) eating and drinking. Children are preordained with (the means of) sexual intercourse. Harvesting crops is preordained with (the means of) planting and, the withdrawal of the soul from an animal is decreed with slaughter. Likewise, entrance into Paradise is preordained with (good) deeds, while entrance into the Hellfire is preordained with (bad) deeds. These are similar examples you used few days ago in another thread. I hope this helps to understand that dua is sometime also a means for the occurrence of something.

And Allah knows the best!
Ma'aSalaam
Reply

Ümit
08-13-2020, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah
WaAlaikum Assalam WaRahmatullhi WaBarakatuhu Akhi,

Hope you are doing well. Please see video below and I hope this would help you understand the Hadith in question:

Jazakallah khair for asking this question.
Ma’aSalaam
thank you very much for your post brother but unfortunately it didn't really answer my question and this is why:

so there are 2 types of qadr:
1...this type is written 50.000 years before all creation and cannot be changed.
2...this type is a yearly qadr that can be altered depending on how you live.

lets take the example he mwntioned in the video of the person who supposed to live 60 years but got his lifespan extended with 5 more years.

in type 1 qadr it is written that he will live for 60 years but because he is a good servant he get to live 5 more years.

in type 2 qadr it is written that he will die this year at age 60...but this year the person was a really good servant...he did a lot of dua so he hets to live for 5 more years.

so...if you look at this...did his qadr really change?
qadr type 1 proofs it didn't...Allah allready knew that this person would make lots of dua in 2020 and that his lifespan would be extended with 5 more years...so actually nothing changed.

I hope you understand what I mean.

or...

I think the actual message here is that you can steer your qadr partially with your actions...decisions and duas...but Allah is all knowing so He already knows in detail in which direction you will steer your qadr to.
so you can change your qadr but at the same time you cant.
it is something like in quantum mechanics
the particle is there but at the same time not there...both are true untill you look at it exactly at time X.
that would make sense...
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'Abdullah
08-14-2020, 01:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit
thank you very much for your post brother but unfortunately it didn't really answer my question and this is why:

so there are 2 types of qadr:
1...this type is written 50.000 years before all creation and cannot be changed.
2...this type is a yearly qadr that can be altered depending on how you live.

lets take the example he mwntioned in the video of the person who supposed to live 60 years but got his lifespan extended with 5 more years.

in type 1 qadr it is written that he will live for 60 years but because he is a good servant he get to live 5 more years.

in type 2 qadr it is written that he will die this year at age 60...but this year the person was a really good servant...he did a lot of dua so he hets to live for 5 more years.

so...if you look at this...did his qadr really change?
qadr type 1 proofs it didn't...Allah allready knew that this person would make lots of dua in 2020 and that his lifespan would be extended with 5 more years...so actually nothing changed.

I hope you understand what I mean.

or...

I think the actual message here is that you can steer your qadr partially with your actions...decisions and duas...but Allah is all knowing so He already knows in detail in which direction you will steer your qadr to.
so you can change your qadr but at the same time you cant.
it is something like in quantum mechanics
the particle is there but at the same time not there...both are true untill you look at it exactly at time X.
that would make sense...
Listen to him again especially from 2:00 till 2:30, where he says ( paraphrasing) that this was already written in preserved tablet that so and so was supposed to live 60 years but because he will treat his relatives well, his life span will be increased for 5 more years.
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wayfarer91
08-14-2020, 05:50 AM
I think you have a valid point. This is what bothers me as well. Like how Abdullah has given examples of children etc. Wouldn't it be pre-written that the person will have sexual intercourse or not? It is really mind boggling. And there are certain things that are beyond the human mind. The thing is we need to make dua constantly. I read a story about Moosa, where a woman came to him and requested him to ask Allah to grant her a child. Moosa went to Allah and requested on the woman's behalf. But Allah told Moosa that it has been decreed that she won't have a child. Few weeks later the woman again came to Moosa and asked him to request Allah to grant her a child, which moosa did, and Allah responded in the same way. A few weeks later the same thing happened. This time Allah told Moosa that it has been decreed that she is barren and would never have a child.

A few years later Moosa met the woman in the market place, with a child. He inquired and the woman told her that Allah granted her with a son. Astounded, Moosa went to Allah and asked about the matter. So Allah responded, "she made so much dua, that it exceeded my will, so I changed what i had decreed.''
So we really don't know what will happen and what God has decreed us.
This is where free-will comes into play. Allah knows that this person would either choose path A, or B. But we don't. Because we have satan with us as well, who might lure us to do wrong. AT this point Allah does not interfere and let the man make his decision. And Allah knows that what lies ahead path A and path B

You can understand it with a simple analogy. When you go to a store, the parents are aware that e.g certain toy is your favorite, but still they don't purchase it for you. If you have been an obedient child, and at your best behavior, and then ask your parents for the toy, perhaps then they might purchase it for you, even though they knew beforehand that you like the toy. Parents are still waiting for you to ask them. I guess to a certain extent Allah also does the same with us. He knows we want something, but is waiting for us to ask Him.



However, i also believe that dua is just Allah's way of keeping us hopeful. If we didn't have dua, we would lose hope in everything. So He might have us believe that dua might change qadr, but in reality, everything has already been written.
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wayfarer91
08-14-2020, 05:55 AM
But it is really depressing when we try to understand such things. We have examples of prophets who made dua, and against all odds Allah granted it to them. But then wasn't it already decreed that those prophets would make dua :/
then we have the concept of evil-eye. Wouldn't it already be written that evil eye would affect a person's health etc. These things don't add up. and We cant question them either.
Reply

Ümit
08-14-2020, 06:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah
Listen to him again especially from 2:00 till 2:30, where he says ( paraphrasing) that this was already written in preserved tablet that so and so was supposed to live 60 years but because he will treat his relatives well, his life span will be increased for 5 more years.
I know...that is exactly why I said:
format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

so...if you look at this...did his qadr really change?
qadr type 1 proofs it didn't...Allah allready knew that this person would make lots of dua in 2020 and that his lifespan would be extended with 5 more years...so actually nothing changed.

I hope you understand what I mean.
in other words:

So he is basically saying that qadr nr 2 is actually included in qadr nr 1...this means that if qadr nr 1 cannot be changed...then the change in qadr nr 2 is not really a change is it? it is a meant-to-be-change.

It is like Schrödingers cat...the cat in the box is alive or dead...both can be true...depending when you look in the box.

But I think the message in this hadeeth is to make you understand two things:
1. your qadr is litterally dependant on your actions and duas...to get the things written in your qadr, you have to work for it...if you do not work for it, you will not get it.

2. The absolute undeniable fact that Allah already knows beforehand whether you will work for it or not leads to knowing and writing your unchangable qadr 50.000 years before all creation.

So this hadeeth basically teaches people to avoid saying "if it is written in my qadr I will get it anyways, so I do not have to work for it". That is not true.
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'Abdullah
08-14-2020, 06:07 AM
I think similar questions were asked in another thread. Not sure if you get a chance to look at my replies to that thread today:
link is below with more detailed explanation:
Im confused about a few things

Im confused about a few things
Salam alaikum I dont want to spread fitnah or cause doubt with this post,if it is so then please a mod delete it immediately.There are some things i ha...
Reply

Ümit
08-14-2020, 06:13 AM
@wayfarer
Selamun aleykum sister. do you have a source for this story?

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91
I read a story about Moosa, where a woman came to him and requested him to ask Allah to grant her a child. Moosa went to Allah and requested on the woman's behalf. But Allah told Moosa that it has been decreed that she won't have a child. Few weeks later the woman again came to Moosa and asked him to request Allah to grant her a child, which moosa did, and Allah responded in the same way. A few weeks later the same thing happened. This time Allah told Moosa that it has been decreed that she is barren and would never have a child.

A few years later Moosa met the woman in the market place, with a child. He inquired and the woman told her that Allah granted her with a son. Astounded, Moosa went to Allah and asked about the matter. So Allah responded, "she made so much dua, that it exceeded my will, so I changed what i had decreed.''
Because if this story is really true...that would mean that Qadr nr 1 is also changable? Then Allah can make a change against something He has seen beforehand somehow...then this subject would be even more complex.
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wayfarer91
08-14-2020, 06:42 AM
I did, but i read it so long ago that i can't even remember the name of the book i read it in.
and does it not relate to story of Zacharaya.? His wife was barren. When he made dua to Allah he sd that my bones are weak, my wife barren but i ask You to grant me a child. In a way, was Zacharaya also not asking allah to change His decree?
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wayfarer91
08-14-2020, 06:53 AM
I think qadr one relates to number of male/female children.
It's like this
you will die: Qada (the first type of destiny)
You will die as a muslim (2nd type of destiny)

No one can evade death. it will hunt u down no matter where u are. but there are people who are born as muslims, die as atheists etc. Similarly, we need to ask Allah in way He should be asked. Mufti Menk shared a story, where a neurosurgeon's plane crashed in Pakistan in a highly rural area, and as it turned out there was a woman praying to Allah for a doc as her son/grandson had neurological problem, She couldn't afford to take him to a doc, so Allah dragged the top neurosurgeon to her door, and he offered to treat the sick child.


A part of our faith requires us to believe in the Ghaib. If we keep digging about Qadr then we might stray away. like evil eye and its relation with Qadr.


___________


Satan also tries his level best to lead us astray. I think that's the colliding power with our qadr, Allah did give him enough power and authority.


______

I read somewhere that Allah does not give us a wish,without the power of making it come true. The power is effort and dua. I have seen people recover from such ailments when even the docs said there is nothing they could do, except for ask Allah. And considering example of Pakistan with their corona-virus fiasco, the people relied mostly on dua and it got resolved. Lol,




____________


Then there is this concept of nature of a person. We say nature cannot be changed. I have an abusive father, and it is his nature. We have tried our level best, even made dua to change him, to have Allah knock some sense into him, but nope. At 83 he is more abusive than ever. It was my mother's decree to have an abusive husband, and mine to have a terrible, lazy father. So i think in the unchangebale tablet Allah had written about a person's nature, personality as well. and according to tht tablet Allah made the 2nd type of decree

My mother cuold have left my father, knowing his nature cannot be changed, but she never made any effort. Social pressure, and her inability to act properly ruined our lives as well. It was already decreed that my father is abusive. It wasn't decreed how my mother would deal with him.


-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Remember me in your duas.
Reply

Ümit
08-14-2020, 07:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91
I did, but i read it so long ago that i can't even remember the name of the book i read it in.
and does it not relate to story of Zacharaya.? His wife was barren. When he made dua to Allah he sd that my bones are weak, my wife barren but i ask You to grant me a child. In a way, was Zacharaya also not asking allah to change His decree?
In a way yes...but still the first story you had appearantly Allah answers litterally that his decree is changing because he made su much dua. about Zacharaya, Zacharaya doesn't know his decree...so he doesn't know whether his decree is changed or not...that is why story nr 1 is much more powerfull...if you could find any source.
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Ümit
08-14-2020, 08:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91
I think qadr one relates to number of male/female children.
It's like this
you will die: Qada (the first type of destiny)
You will die as a muslim (2nd type of destiny)
That is not how it is explained in the video shared by brother Abdullah.
According to that video (also how I believe) is that Qadr nr 2 somehow is included in Qadr nr 1.
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

No one can evade death. it will hunt u down no matter where u are. but there are people who are born as muslims, die as atheists etc. Similarly, we need to ask Allah in way He should be asked. Mufti Menk shared a story, where a neurosurgeon's plane crashed in Pakistan in a highly rural area, and as it turned out there was a woman praying to Allah for a doc as her son/grandson had neurological problem, She couldn't afford to take him to a doc, so Allah dragged the top neurosurgeon to her door, and he offered to treat the sick child.
yes I understand but, the difficult part here is that we still do not know the boy or the neurosurgeons decree...so we do not know whether it is changed or not.
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

A part of our faith requires us to believe in the Ghaib. If we keep digging about Qadr then we might stray away. like evil eye and its relation with Qadr.
I DO believe in the Ghaib...I just want to understand it...about that straying away, I think if you keep realizing that you are digging for answers to understand your religion better...and not because you are questioning your religion...you will turn out closer to your religion...but if you are questioning your religion in the first place...and you find answers that lead to bigger questioning of your religion...then you are absolutely right and it will lead you to stray away.
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91


___________


Satan also tries his level best to lead us astray. I think that's the colliding power with our qadr, Allah did give him enough power and authority.


______

I read somewhere that Allah does not give us a wish,without the power of making it come true. The power is effort and dua. I have seen people recover from such ailments when even the docs said there is nothing they could do, except for ask Allah. And considering example of Pakistan with their corona-virus fiasco, the people relied mostly on dua and it got resolved. Lol,




____________


Then there is this concept of nature of a person. We say nature cannot be changed. I have an abusive father, and it is his nature. We have tried our level best, even made dua to change him, to have Allah knock some sense into him, but nope. At 83 he is more abusive than ever. It was my mother's decree to have an abusive husband, and mine to have a terrible, lazy father. So i think in the unchangebale tablet Allah had written about a person's nature, personality as well. and according to tht tablet Allah made the 2nd type of decree

My mother cuold have left my father, knowing his nature cannot be changed, but she never made any effort. Social pressure, and her inability to act properly ruined our lives as well. It was already decreed that my father is abusive. It wasn't decreed how my mother would deal with him.


-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Remember me in your duas.
But we have enough cases where the personality of a person through the years...when something dramatically changes...or some person was nearly killed...or some pyschical change in the brains...those people can change their personality...enough cases about that...or when people realize that they are getting old...also quite often leads to change of personality.

My grandpa had a total different personality when he was fit...one summer he was in vacation in Turkey...it was hotter than he could handle...and he got sick...and right after that he started to have problems with his knees etc...you could exactly pipoint the moment that he felt himself old and this changed his whole personality. actually nothing dramatic...but still from one day into the other...this guy felt himself suddenly old.
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wayfarer91
08-14-2020, 08:44 AM
Yeah, I will search for that book or story reference because it has been bothering me as well.

-------
Also, I think it is understood that if a woman is barren, in her 80s, and the guy is in his 80s, they won't have a child. It is decreed by Allah that after 40-50 years, a woman would not birth a child. So if Zacharaya prayed for a child, despite having the understanding that it is impossible, it means he was asking Allah to change His decree. Get it?

And Zacharaya made dua, after he saw that Mariyam was surrounded with unseasonal and seasonal fruit. He asked her where she got it from, and she responded that I ask Allah and He provides it to me. At that point it occured to Zacharaya that I should make dua, perhaps Allah will grant it as well. So it was decreed that if he made dua, Allah will grant him a child.

But that's where our confusion arises. Did God not know that Zacharaya will make dua? This is the bone of contention i guess.


______
There is a difference in personality, and nature. People can have multiple personalities. You are different with your friends, with your parents, with your siblings. But your nature remains the same. They would know you are a calm person, regardless of the situation. MY father is respectful with his family, with the neighbors etc, but everyone knows he is short tempered and can snap at any instant. He is rude to the helpers, who also know that he is short tempered. My father is kind to his grand children, but they also stay away fearing his nature: anger!

______________--
But my confusion about evil eye and decree is also getting to me :/
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Ümit
08-14-2020, 09:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91
Yeah, I will search for that book or story reference because it has been bothering me as well.
Thank you very much. I will be interested
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

-------
Also, I think it is understood that if a woman is barren, in her 80s, and the guy is in his 80s, they won't have a child. It is decreed by Allah that after 40-50 years, a woman would not birth a child. So if Zacharaya prayed for a child, despite having the understanding that it is impossible, it means he was asking Allah to change His decree. Get it?
Yes now I understand what you mean, but still I do not think it is just as strong as the first story because:
1 you do not know what was written in the original decree and whether it is changed or not.
2 Allah can perform miracles...and maybe this miracle was already written in the original decree.

The story of Isa as for instance...being born from a virgin mother is impossible...but it was Isa as's decree to have no biological father...did he make dua for that? no...it was just his decree, even though it was impossible.

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

And Zacharaya made dua, after he saw that Mariyam was surrounded with unseasonal and seasonal fruit. He asked her where she got it from, and she responded that I ask Allah and He provides it to me. At that point it occured to Zacharaya that I should make dua, perhaps Allah will grant it as well. So it was decreed that if he made dua, Allah will grant him a child.

But that's where our confusion arises. Did God not know that Zacharaya will make dua? This is the bone of contention i guess.


______
There is a difference in personality, and nature. People can have multiple personalities. You are different with your friends, with your parents, with your siblings. But your nature remains the same. They would know you are a calm person, regardless of the situation. MY father is respectful with his family, with the neighbors etc, but everyone knows he is short tempered and can snap at any instant. He is rude to the helpers, who also know that he is short tempered. My father is kind to his grand children, but they also stay away fearing his nature: anger!
yes you are right...Here I got a little confused. thanks for correcting me.
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91
______________--
But my confusion about evil eye and decree is also getting to me :/
Reply

wayfarer91
08-14-2020, 10:58 AM
True, but Mariyam asking for such fruit that is not seasonal is also the outcome of dua. Also, mariyam didn't know it was decreed for her to have a child despite being a virgin, until Jibraeel told her so.
Also with the case of Zacharya, again my point that a normal person would believe that making such a dua is useless because it is a fact of science that after a certain age, women cannot give birth. Mostly, people stop having intercourse after their 60s even.


But the truth is, we cannot understand Allah's authority and power over us. We think with human minds. The other day i was watching a video, where the scholar was addressing the question about tahjud . A person had asked that it is always night time somewhere in the world, then how does Allah come down considering He might be in the lowest sky some where else in the world at any time.
So the scholar responded that we can't comprehend Allah. His capacity is beyond our understanding, and human mind cannot figure it out. We think of Allah according to humanistic abilities. We try to analogize His love for us. e.g the common saying of God loving us 70 times more than a mother. , or my earlier example about the toy.


We need to know Allah gave us certain characteristics. He knows what we will do. He also knows wht shatan will do. We just need to have Hope in Allah.

_____

I know a woman with very beautiful voice, and she always wanted to be a singer. But when she was young, just for fun she got her hand read by those palmist, who told her she would never be a successful singer. After that, she never made any effort to sing, or make a career in singing, and usually remained poverty stricken. This is where our faith in Allah plays. Had she relied on Allah, made dua, and put in effort, Allah might have given her a successful career in singing >.



Questions about qadr, dua, hope only instill repercussions about religion. make dua with the conviction that Allah will grant you the thing. And I think it is the conviction that is decreed by allah and tht is the real test


___________

I listened to NAK''s lecture a few days ago where he gives the example of him giving his son a screw driver, and a screw to tighten. So the kid starts asking what kind of screw driver it is, does it have deteriorating value, , when did you buy it, etc. So NAK said that the child was more inclined about asking irrelevant questions.
Similarly, he said that we as humans have neglected the knowledge that has been given to us, and more inclined towards knowing what He hasn't told us. So, if there is the hadith where The Prophet sAWW says dua can change qadr, obviously, Allah gave him the understanding that led him to say this. We need to be focused on the given knowledge. Yes, dua can change qadr.Some call it miracles. some call it qadr.and some His blessings.
NAK's lecture reminded me of the instance of the Yahoodi who were asked to slaughter a cow, and they kept asking what kind of cow, what its color should be, what should be its age etc, making religion difficult for them. Similarly, we see that many questioned the prophet SAAWW about Ishabe Kahf (the people of the cave) and asked about their number. They forgot the essence of the story, the reason why Allah told us about them. Or why Allah asked the people of Thamud to slaughter the cow.

_____

LEt's keep things simple. The Prophet said Dua can change Qadr, because Allah blessed him with exceptional knowledge. He SAWW went to the miraaj, he has met other prophets, he has seen the hell and the heaven. Personally I belive in the preserved tablet the matters of life/death, children etc are mentined. Everything else, Allah changes through dua.
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Ümit
08-14-2020, 08:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91
True, but Mariyam asking for such fruit that is not seasonal is also the outcome of dua. Also, mariyam didn't know it was decreed for her to have a child despite being a virgin, until Jibraeel told her so.
Also with the case of Zacharya, again my point that a normal person would believe that making such a dua is useless because it is a fact of science that after a certain age, women cannot give birth. Mostly, people stop having intercourse after their 60s even.


But the truth is, we cannot understand Allah's authority and power over us. We think with human minds. The other day i was watching a video, where the scholar was addressing the question about tahjud . A person had asked that it is always night time somewhere in the world, then how does Allah come down considering He might be in the lowest sky some where else in the world at any time.
So the scholar responded that we can't comprehend Allah. His capacity is beyond our understanding, and human mind cannot figure it out. We think of Allah according to humanistic abilities. We try to analogize His love for us. e.g the common saying of God loving us 70 times more than a mother. , or my earlier example about the toy.
Of course I am aeare of this...and I never attempt to try to understand such things because I know I cant.
like the example that everything even rocks trees and mountains prostate in front of Allah. we cannot observe that...we have to believe.
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

We need to know Allah gave us certain characteristics. He knows what we will do. He also knows wht shatan will do. We just need to have Hope in Allah.

_____

I know a woman with very beautiful voice, and she always wanted to be a singer. But when she was young, just for fun she got her hand read by those palmist, who told her she would never be a successful singer. After that, she never made any effort to sing, or make a career in singing, and usually remained poverty stricken. This is where our faith in Allah plays. Had she relied on Allah, made dua, and put in effort, Allah might have given her a successful career in singing >.
that is her own fault...she should have knows better than believing in such garbage.
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91


Questions about qadr, dua, hope only instill repercussions about religion. make dua with the conviction that Allah will grant you the thing. And I think it is the conviction that is decreed by allah and tht is the real test


___________

I listened to NAK''s lecture a few days ago where he gives the example of him giving his son a screw driver, and a screw to tighten. So the kid starts asking what kind of screw driver it is, does it have deteriorating value, , when did you buy it, etc. So NAK said that the child was more inclined about asking irrelevant questions.
Similarly, he said that we as humans have neglected the knowledge that has been given to us, and more inclined towards knowing what He hasn't told us. So, if there is the hadith where The Prophet sAWW says dua can change qadr, obviously, Allah gave him the understanding that led him to say this. We need to be focused on the given knowledge. Yes, dua can change qadr.Some call it miracles. some call it qadr.and some His blessings.
NAK's lecture reminded me of the instance of the Yahoodi who were asked to slaughter a cow, and they kept asking what kind of cow, what its color should be, what should be its age etc, making religion difficult for them. Similarly, we see that many questioned the prophet SAAWW about Ishabe Kahf (the people of the cave) and asked about their number. They forgot the essence of the story, the reason why Allah told us about them. Or why Allah asked the people of Thamud to slaughter the cow.
this however I do not agree...the jews slaughtering a cow is a complete different situation. in this case I am not trying to ask irrelevant questions...I just want to learn more about this certain hadeeth that dua can change qadr.
I do not disbelieve in this hadeeth...because I already checked on it and it is hasaan...so it must be true...I just want to understand it.
knowledge has a complete different effect on me. it makes me love my religion even more. that is why I am always seeking for answers for every questionmark in my head.
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91
_____

LEt's keep things simple. The Prophet said Dua can change Qadr, because Allah blessed him with exceptional knowledge. He SAWW went to the miraaj, he has met other prophets, he has seen the hell and the heaven. Personally I belive in the preserved tablet the matters of life/death, children etc are mentined. Everything else, Allah changes through dua.
does that mean that you do not believe the explanation in abdullahs post? because for what I know it was clearly said in the video that everything is already written in qadr type 1.
and somehow "convincing Allah with dua" sounds a bit controversial to me. I mean Allah is all knowing...who are we to convince an all knowing being who already knows all our arguments before we even think about it? we know nothing better than Allah...let alone convincing Him to grant our dua.

So I do not believe that...there must be a better explanation.

again...the best I can think of is to make us realise that a lot of things written in our qadr need effort and dua.
this hadeeth prevents us from laying back and wait for the things written in qadr come and just fall in our laps.
to make us realize that we can partially steer our own qadr...but at the same time it is already fixed because that is the direct result of being an all knowing being. to live outside the grasp of time and therefore knowing the future.
Reply

amnasheikh99
08-14-2020, 10:38 PM
I think it's unfair of Allah to do this to us Muslims. And humans at large. We have to keep our faith intact regardless of the situation
In the quran Allah promises to respond to our duas but then says it is accepted in one out of three ways.. That's not keeping to His words..
We are told to keep faith regardless of the hurdles.. Look at the kashmiris in Indian held kashmir. Generations have died trying for independence. None of their duas were answered.
And then in the end we are not sure we will go to Janah or not
Reply

Imraan
08-15-2020, 12:17 AM
Interesting thread, I have found that doubt and curiosity attacks at time when my faith in the idea of recovering from all these worldly disasters and tribulations is not 100%.

Even when things aren't going my way, its things like hope and prayer that assist me in keeping me sane to an extent.

I don't think anyone can explain why stuff happens. Reasons, logic and full comprehension is beyond any human mind. We just have to stick with it, keep it simple and keep faith.

I too have explored many explanations, frankly I don't think I will ever know why my journey turned out to be like this.

Pray that it does not get any worse and be grateful for everything that has happened thus far. It's hard to take in, be grateful for being subjected to oppression? Doesn't sound right, still have to give thanks to Allah swt, else it potentially can get worse... Right?

In terms of destination, I believe it is down to the strength and courage of a person that drives them towards it... (Free will), those that might lack these attributes may depend on miracles alone. If Allah swt wills, miracles can happen. Can you guarantee they will not?

It would make us feel a lot better if we knew why stuff happens the way they do or even fails to happen. But then everything would be predictable and the need for faith may be low.

My feeble little human mind can't comprehend the mechanisms which control the unexpected outcomes after decisons are made, it has changed me and made me cautious how we conduct ourselves in this world.

Imagine living a life where we can tap into the unseen, unheard and unknown. Wow, wish I had them super powers, could have saved me a lot of grief.

Even then....

"What is meant for you, won't miss you no matter what"
"What is is not meant for you, you'll never get"

Follow the teachings in the quran, hadith and sunnah to the best of your ability.

What else can you do?
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'Abdullah
08-15-2020, 05:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by amnasheikh99
I think it's unfair of Allah to do this to us Muslims. And humans at large. We have to keep our faith intact regardless of the situation
In the quran Allah promises to respond to our duas but then says it is accepted in one out of three ways.. That's not keeping to His words..
We are told to keep faith regardless of the hurdles.. Look at the kashmiris in Indian held kashmir. Generations have died trying for independence. None of their duas were answered.
And then in the end we are not sure we will go to Janah or not
Perhaps you should read what you wrote and think about it if this is what a believer should write? Please delete this stuff if possible, you don’t want to be one spreading fitna and waswas.
وَرَبُّكَ ٱلْغَفُورُ ذُو ٱلرَّحْمَةِ ۖ لَوْ يُؤَاخِذُهُم بِمَا كَسَبُواْ لَعَجَّلَ لَهُمُ ٱلْعَذَابَ ۚ بَل لَّهُم مَّوْعِدٌ لَّن يَجِدُواْ مِن دُونِهِۦ مَوْئِلًا

And your Lord is the Forgiving, full of mercy. If He were to impose blame upon them for what they earned, He would have hastened for them the punishment. Rather, for them is an appointment from which they will never find an escape.

(Al Kahfi 18:58)

And Allah knows the best!
Reply

'Abdullah
08-15-2020, 05:38 AM
Reply

wayfarer91
08-15-2020, 05:46 AM
that's the thing, What is meant for us won't miss us no matter what, so should we not make dua? because Qadr can't be changed?
Reply

wayfarer91
08-15-2020, 05:58 AM
For the Jews it was also not irrelevant. They wanted to make the perfect sacrifice to please Allah. The crux is, we should not get into the nitty gritty of things that would only lead to more queries. Like the instance of ishaab e Kahf.
Knowledge has the same effect on everybody. But there are limits that we should not cross. REmember the people who God destroyed only because they crossed their limits in knowledge. So, if God didn't explain the concept of Qadr lucidly, there is a reason. WE should not assess Him according to our human minds.

______

Convincing Allah implies that we have to show Him we need it. Allah knows we are Muslims, then why the need to pray to Him five times a day, or fast during Ramadan, or even do dhikr. He is all knowing. He knows in our hearts we love Him more than anything. We show Him through our namaz that we Love Him, we need Him. The same is the case with dua. He knows a person needs a certain item. But he also needs to see us ask Him for it.


______
There are things that we can't control and can only change through qadr. like i gave you the example of my father. We tried changing him, but dua did help us to a certain extent. His anger hasn't diminished but dua had taken a load of stress off our shoulders.


_____________
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amnasheikh99
08-15-2020, 06:17 AM
I am not trying to spread fitna or awaswas, i amconfused, and hopeless.

- - - Updated - - -
@ummi t, Qadr cannot be changed. Otherwise, it would have been mentioned in the Quran, and in sahih bukhari hadith atleast. It is only mentioned in tirmidhi, meaning the authenticity can be challenged. Making dua willl change nothing. Allah does as He wills, and we have to accept it.
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'Abdullah
08-15-2020, 06:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by amnasheikh99
I am not trying to spread fitna or awaswas, i amconfused, and hopeless.

- - - Updated - - -
@ummit, Qadr cannot be changed. Otherwise, it would have been mentioned in the Quran, and in sahih bukhari hadith atleast. It is only mentioned in tirmidhi, meaning the authenticity can be challenged. Making dua willl change nothing. Allah does as He wills, and we have to accept it.
Blaming Allah and calling that He is unfair, being hopeless etc. is all from Shaytan. I know it sounds like I am being too hard on you but sister it is for your benefit. These things should not come out of our mouth or be written on a public forum. If you need to discuss, discuss it privately with moderators using Helpdesk.

Your comment about Hadith is also total ignorance. The Hadith is graded “ Hasan ( Fair).” So you can’t question the chain of the Hadith and/or its content.

To keep it simple, keep making dua. Forget how it works, your mind can’t comprehend. Trust in Allah and I pray that He makes things easy for you. Ameen!

And Allah knows the best!
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amnasheikh99
08-15-2020, 07:08 AM
I know, but i am so fed up. Like the old Urdu Ghazal goes like:

Ghazab Kiya tery waday pa eitebar kiya
tamam raat qayamat ka intezar kiya


Oh, to have put my faith in your word
What a compulsive error of judgment it was
The complete night was a long wait For calamity
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'Abdullah
08-15-2020, 07:55 AM
Reply

amnasheikh99
08-15-2020, 10:17 AM
It is the same thing but a different scholar.
It is already pre-destined. making dua will only get our hopes high and then we would get results that we don't want.
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Al-Ansariyah
08-15-2020, 12:10 PM
Assalamualaikum. @amnasheikh99 Your questions have already been answered in ALL of your previous threads. It's ridiculous that a human keeps yearning for the things he WANTS and keeps thinking about his Lord that which he shouldn't ,without even realising that he, if the almighty wills, can be destroyed even before the blink of an eye. I want you to realise something here.
format_quote Originally Posted by amnasheikh99
I think it's unfair of Allah to do this to us Muslims. And humans at large. We have to keep our faith intact regardless of the situation In the quran Allah promises to respond to our duas but then says it is accepted in one out of three ways.. That's not keeping to His words..
format_quote Originally Posted by amnasheikh99
making dua will only get our hopes high and then we would get results that we don't want.
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91
Questions about qadr, dua, hope only instill repercussions about religion. make dua with the conviction that Allah will grant you the thing. And I think it is the conviction that is decreed by allah and tht is the real test
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91
LEt's keep things simple. The Prophet said Dua can change Qadr, because Allah blessed him with exceptional knowledge. He SAWW went to the miraaj, he has met other prophets, he has seen the hell and the heaven. Personally I belive in the preserved tablet the matters of life/death, children etc are mentined. Everything else, Allah changes through dua.
Knowledge has the same effect on everybody. But there are limits that we should not cross. REmember the people who God destroyed only because they crossed their limits in knowledge. So, if God didn't explain the concept of Qadr lucidly, there is a reason. WE should not assess Him according to our human minds.
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91
There are things that we can't control and can only change through qadr. like i gave you the example of my father. We tried changing him, but dua did help us to a certain extent. His anger hasn't diminished but dua had taken a load of stress off our shoulders.
Reply

Ümit
08-15-2020, 03:50 PM
I want to thank @amna sheik99 for this reaction on another thread because that post made me see the answer I was looking for in my initial qurstion:

format_quote Originally Posted by amnasheikh99
This is what I mean, we cannot even complain, just rely on God, when everything is already written, why make dua in the first place, you can't delay death by praying, what is to come will come.
qadr is not fixed (qadr type 2) you can steer your own qadr with the amount of effort and dua you put in.

qadr type 1 is only the direct result of Allah being all known. it is inevidable. He lives beyond the grasp of time...so He knows how our future looks like.

people with the same attitude as amnasheik just wait for the crappy qadr fall into their lap because they think they cannot change their qadr and they do not work for their dreams and do not make any dua....and therefore nothing happens.

@amna sheik
sorry for being rude but you have to realize that your attitude is wrong!
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amnasheikh99
08-15-2020, 05:37 PM
does not justify your crappy attitude with me either. I respected you, but Gosh you need to learn basic etiquette that Islam constantly tells us about.

- - - Updated - - -

and people like you who ask crappy questions might be responsible for infusing waswas in other people's minds as well. The wayfarer99 guy explained everything perfectly, but your comments were the one that steered me off the right path. so before you go on asking about something that is beyond human understanding on a public platform, be sure you can be the vessel satan might be using for furthering his wasas
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wayfarer91
08-15-2020, 06:05 PM
Really disappointed in your behavior ummit. Being Muslims we should not be rude to anyone, especially the ones going through a tough time. We all feel despondent and hopeless at times. We need to show the people it is okay to feel down at times, and guide them to the right path, your behavior might push them further away. No one gave you the right to be rude with anyone. Give respect, gain respect.

And you should not have asked such a question in the first place. You began by questioning an authentic hadeth and in between you mentioned that you don't believe in it, so should we have also been rude to you? Really saddened by your behavior. Next time, perhaps you should refrain from asking such questions and don't pave way for shetan's waswasas

- - - Updated - - -

You should have ignored her. her faith is apparently weaker than yours :)
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'Abdullah
08-15-2020, 06:12 PM
Umit simply asked a question and also said that the Hadith is Hassan so he did not question the Hadith & only asked for explanation. There is nothing wrong in asking a question.
However, it is wrong to come and publicly say that Allah is unfair and blame everything on Allah.
Perhaps we need moderators to delete such posts.
Reply

amnasheikh99
08-15-2020, 06:39 PM
Sure thing. Why ask such questions that would eventually lead to waswas.
And i dont blame u people for being so closed minded. There is a renowned poet dr muhammad allama iqbal who wrote a poem. It complained to God about His injustices. The Muslim bigots instead of understanding the message that te poet was trying to convey started to call him kafir and fitna etc.
I dont blame u for not being able to understand that perhaps a person might be needing some support. I dont think anywhere in the quran or sunnah have Allah said to attack a person who might be looki g for guidance but you guys would rather support something unislamic than help the person understand the questions.

Reminds me of the instance when the Prophet was preaching to a couple of quresh leaders and a blind man came to seek knowledge. The prophet ignored him and got a bit irritated at his questions.. Afterwards, Allah showed His disregard for the prophets behavior and told him to deal all with respect and kindness. I guess this platform is not islamic as i once perceived
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wayfarer91
08-15-2020, 06:49 PM
@Abdullah both are asking questions. I therefore said in the beginnin that we should leave certain things to be.. Because there are people struggling with faith at all times and this is not a closed platform.
We need to respect everyone
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'Abdullah
08-15-2020, 07:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amnasheikh99
I think it's unfair of Allah to do this to us Muslims. And humans at large. We have to keep our faith intact regardless of the situation
In the quran Allah promises to respond to our duas but then says it is accepted in one out of three ways.. That's not keeping to His words..
We are told to keep faith regardless of the hurdles.. Look at the kashmiris in Indian held kashmir. Generations have died trying for independence. None of their duas were answered.
And then in the end we are not sure we will go to Janah or not
I don’t see any question in this post. And the content is extremely questionable. All we are saying is that a Muslim should not say stuff like that in public. Anyways it’s hard to give any advice to people now a days because many of us have got a big egos. There is nothing wrong for someone to say that what I said is wrong and I am just struggling to find answers. We are all here to support each other but that does not mean we should just let people say whatever comes in their mind and pretend that it’s normal. It’s not normal and it is not acceptable.

I wish that I could PM the sister instead of rebuking her in public but due to forum rules I can’t PM her (Alhamdulillah for such rules which are important to keep away bigger fitnas).

- - - Updated - - -

Can moderators please close this thread. I don’t see this going anywhere.
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Ümit
08-15-2020, 07:30 PM
agreed. thread can be closed. I have the answer I was looking for and it makes totally sense now. thank you very much.
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wayfarer91
08-15-2020, 10:23 PM
You got ur answers at the cost of an other person's beliefs :)
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Ümit
08-15-2020, 10:38 PM
I am not going to listen to shaytaan and put another reaction here. may Allah protect us all against spteading fitnah. mods please close this thread.

ve aleykum selam
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wayfarer91
08-16-2020, 04:17 AM
Shetan came over u the instant you were rude to aminasheikh91
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wayfarer91
08-16-2020, 04:25 AM
At @amnasheikh91 if you believe in Allah and His book you can see that He has mentioned so many stories and instances. Was He lying about any one of them?
So if you believe in Allah's book it means His promises are true aswel. He has said in the Quran i will respond. And He is the ultimate truth. So whenever you feel sad and think Allah's promises are not true remember how He lookee after the ishaab e kahf.

We muslims are not supposed to go into nitty gritty of things because it always has an impact on someone like it did on u. Umit's "innocent question" kind affect many othrs who are looking for answrs and then find this thread realising that dua cannot change qadr.


What I believe is that there is a reason why the Prophet saww said about qadr and dua. Because we dont have the knowledge he did. May be Allah had told him, something related to dua, or the preserved tablet. If it is said dua can change qadr, be sure that it does. When we try to get logical usually we go astray. No one can prove Allah's existence, but we believe in Ghaib and that He exists, and that what makes ISlam beautiful. I know many people who were Hafiz e Quran but they started to get logical, and ended up being as far awy from religion as humanly possible.

So just dua it. Watch lectures to strengthen your belief in Allah, and if you have any problem, you can DM me, I will talk it out with you,,




Always remember times do get tough. Right now iam going through one of the worst phases of my life.. And i am constantly tensed about how it is going to end. Lockdown took a toll on my mental health esp when u live with am abusive father. But i try nt to be ungrateful to Allah despite shatan constantly giving me signs k dekho yeh kya ho rha.. Wo kya ho rha..

And you are right to say waht you think, as Iqbal said
Jurat aamoz meri tab e sukhn hy mujko,
shikwa Allah, khakam badhan, hy muj ko

The pain you are feeling is common. This is what shatan does. i have been making effort for something, and making dua as well, but everytime i try to open that door, i get the same response. And I do think at times that perhaps Allah really does not listen. Yet, who are you gonna call? It is always Allah we turn back to. Maybe you have been away from Him for so long, that finally when you came to Him, He likes it so much that he is deliberately delaying your dua. These waswas only make you human, not a bad Muslim.
------
And one thing ive realised perhaps the qadr can change and Allah has kept it from the angels because of how the palm readers/astrologers use jinns to forecast the future.
Reply

RisingLight
08-16-2020, 08:42 AM
Its complicated,but Qadr and rizq are some topics which are not connected only to humans.As we know in Lahul-Mahfudh it is written about all creation,not only humans,so the first thing we should do is to know that we cant fully understand it.Its beyond our mind perception.

I wanna give a simple example of how I understand all this,and in shaa Allah it will help you understand it better.
Imagine there is a guy who is asking everybody for money because he has a problem.Word spreads and you know that he tells everybody the same thing and tells everybody the same.One day he calls you telling you the same thing and asking to meet up.You know 100% he will ask for money,and you have decided long ago that if he asks you,you will give him.So you write it down that at 2 oclock I will meet this guy and he will ask me for money and I will give him.But you go and meet him and wait until he asks you for it and then you give him the money,otherwise you don’t.
So Lahul-Mahfud is like what you wrote,the future is already written there.Allah already knows everything,how He knows all this we cant comprehend cuz we cant comprehend time,its beyond our physical senses.
And the Qadr is like the money youd give this guy.You already planned to give him the money,yet he has to ask you for it.

Allahu Alem, but don’t dwell too much into these things are beyond the perception of our limited mind and it only leads to confusion.


format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

Yet, who are you gonna call?
ohh pure Tawheed there ma shaa Allah !!!
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amnasheikh99
08-16-2020, 10:55 AM
yes, this question by ummit did affect me negatively. I was hopeful about qadr until i ran across this thread on the platform. Better to stop using it. Thankyou wayfarer91 you understood where I am coming from. I am not questioning God's power, rather I am complaining to Him and He knows that my conscious is clear
Allah bless you
Reply

Ümit
08-17-2020, 05:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by RisingLight
Its complicated,but Qadr and rizq are some topics which are not connected only to humans.As we know in Lahul-Mahfudh it is written about all creation,not only humans,so the first thing we should do is to know that we cant fully understand it.Its beyond our mind perception.

I wanna give a simple example of how I understand all this,and in shaa Allah it will help you understand it better.
Imagine there is a guy who is asking everybody for money because he has a problem.Word spreads and you know that he tells everybody the same thing and tells everybody the same.One day he calls you telling you the same thing and asking to meet up.You know 100% he will ask for money,and you have decided long ago that if he asks you,you will give him.So you write it down that at 2 oclock I will meet this guy and he will ask me for money and I will give him.But you go and meet him and wait until he asks you for it and then you give him the money,otherwise you don’t.
So Lahul-Mahfud is like what you wrote,the future is already written there.Allah already knows everything,how He knows all this we cant comprehend cuz we cant comprehend time,its beyond our physical senses.
And the Qadr is like the money youd give this guy.You already planned to give him the money,yet he has to ask you for it.

Allahu Alem, but don’t dwell too much into these things are beyond the perception of our limited mind and it only leads to confusion.




ohh pure Tawheed there ma shaa Allah !!!
Wow, that is a really good example. Thank you very much
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'Abdullah
08-17-2020, 02:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91
I read a story about Moosa, where a woman came to him and requested him to ask Allah to grant her a child. Moosa went to Allah and requested on the woman's behalf. But Allah told Moosa that it has been decreed that she won't have a child. Few weeks later the woman again came to Moosa and asked him to request Allah to grant her a child, which moosa did, and Allah responded in the same way. A few weeks later the same thing happened. This time Allah told Moosa that it has been decreed that she is barren and would never have a child.

A few years later Moosa met the woman in the market place, with a child. He inquired and the woman told her that Allah granted her with a son. Astounded, Moosa went to Allah and asked about the matter. So Allah responded, "she made so much dua, that it exceeded my will, so I changed what i had decreed.''
This story is complete fabrication, is not found in any of the hadith books. I even looked into the books which have fabricated stories and this story is not even found in those books. Most likely came from Judeo-Christian traditions and we should not accept such stories. The story itself has very serious 'aqeedah issues, it defies that Allah has the ultimate knowledge and defies the fact that everything has already been written in preserved tablet. If something was supposed to happen due to a dua, Allah knew that as well. As mentioned in my previous posts, dua itself is part of the Qadr. A video below from Sheikh Yasir Birjas has discussed this story and have also explained the issue of Qadr and dua in depth.
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wayfarer91
08-17-2020, 04:28 PM
I think it makes sense.. It is not mandatory for Allah to reveal the decre to moosa.. Instead Allah tested the woman with her faith. She didn't give up on dua and thats why kept asking for a child.
It could be fabricated but it is not beyond logic.i am still looking for the book though.. I hope i find it.

And thats the point.. Allah knows everything.. We cant comprehend the true sense of qadr. It means everything is planned out.. Then many of rhe non muslims might find it unfair on the day of judgement for being sent to hell fire.. There is the concept of free will. Which i believe Allah gave us full authority over.. He knows whether we will choose door a, b, c and then the outcome of each possibility..
We don't know it.
We cant argue either that we should /shouldn't work for it because of Qadr. Cuz Allah has already preordained whether a person will work for something or not..
Getting it!?
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'Abdullah
08-17-2020, 04:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91
I think it makes sense.. It is not mandatory for Allah to reveal the decre to moosa.. Instead Allah tested the woman with her faith. She didn't give up on dua and thats why kept asking for a child.
format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91
It could be fabricated but it is not beyond logic.
The point is such stories should not be shared. Its fabricated and teaches something which goes against the 'aqeedah as I explained in my previous post. One does not need fabricated stories to make sense of Qadr, it is not as complicated to understand for a believer especially when we have authentic sources to explain the concept. Please refer to Sahih hadith quoted several times ( dua is answered in one of the three ways).
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amnasheikh99
08-17-2020, 05:15 PM
Yes, dua is answered in one of three ways, but then it means Qadr cannot be changed through destiny the way we want it to. What is preordained will not change even if we make dua, however we will be rewarded as dua is a form of worship. NO? and we are rewarded for worshiping Allah. So does that mean we should not make dua, instead resort to other forms of worship, or make duas for general things, so on and so forth. I saw wayfarer91 post and she spoke what i wanted to say.

i Solemlnly believe that dua can change qadr, All explanations do not make sense. If a person wants to ask for money from person B, the person B got the wind of it from persons C and D. Allah does not work that way, he has knowledge of everything.
Even if u make dua, how long should you make dua for something particular? When should be the moment of us realizing it is not in our qadr to get that thing. People try for decades to have kids, they rely on dua and medical assistance. At the same time, family who had a child when the woman was in her 60s and man in his late 60s,. It happened by the Will of Allah. Does that mean that it was dua that got them the baby, or Allah's will. They had lost all hope, even stopped making dua. Does that mean dua didn't work, Allah only granted them the child when it was ordained for them. Or does it mean that dua changed their qadr?

If you read Iqbal's Shikwa, that might help you understand the idea iam trying to convey here. It is a bit open, and might affect the faith of bigots. but try reading it with an open mind ..Assim Ali Khan says that even Evil Eye is preordained, and Allah knows that one will be affected with it. So what does that mean? If it is preordained, definitely nothing can change it, not even dua, because Allah has already decreed it in loh e mahfooz
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RisingLight
08-17-2020, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amnasheikh99
Does that mean dua didn't work, Allah only granted them the child when it was ordained for them. Or does it mean that dua changed their qadr?

If you read Iqbal's Shikwa, that might help you understand the idea iam trying to convey here. It is a bit open, and might affect the faith of bigots. but try reading it with an open mind ..Assim Ali Khan says that even Evil Eye is preordained, and Allah knows that one will be affected with it. So what does that mean? If it is preordained, definitely nothing can change it, not even dua, because Allah has already decreed it in loh e mahfooz
Maybe a duaa they made many years ago was accepted but it had to take many years to see the results.As i have said before,it took me 8 years of constantly making duaa everyday to leave my country and practice islam in freedom.Or in the case of the prophet saws,he didnt have mecca immediately,it took him a long time.We have to go through tests and hardship regardless of duaa,after all this is why we are here to be tested.But the beautiful thing of it is that even though your duaa might be ''worthless'' in the dunya,there are still 2 others ways that it is accepted.

Yes but at the same time if Allah didnt decree it in lahul-Mahfuz or if Allah doesnt know if you will be affected with evil eye in the future then that is contradicting to the fact that Allah has knowledge about everything.But we dont know what will happen in the future.So we do our best to be protected from it,use our free will,and whatever happens in the future is the result of our free will which Allah already knows.
Reply

Supernova
08-17-2020, 06:37 PM
:coldwater:
Reply

'Abdullah
08-17-2020, 06:56 PM
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "No Muslim makes supplication - unless he is someone who has cut off his relatives - but that he is given one of three things:


  • either his supplication is answered quickly,
  • or it is stored up for him in the Next World,
  • or an evil equal to it is averted from him."

It was said, "Then many supplications will be made." He replied, "Allah has more still to give."

حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ نَصْرٍ، قَالَ‏:‏ حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ أُسَامَةَ، عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ قَالَ‏:‏ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا الْمُتَوَكِّلِ النَّاجِيَّ قَالَ‏:‏ قَالَ أَبُو سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيُّ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم‏:‏ مَا مِنْ مُسْلِمٍ يَدْعُو، لَيْسَ بِإِثْمٍ وَلاَ بِقَطِيعَةِ رَحِمٍ، إِلاَّ أَعْطَاهُ إِحْدَى ثَلاَثٍ‏:‏ إِمَّا أَنْ يُعَجِّلَ لَهُ دَعْوَتَهُ، وَإِمَّا أَنْ يَدَّخِرَهَا لَهُ فِي الْآخِرَةِ، وَإِمَّا أَنْ يَدْفَعَ عَنْهُ مِنَ السُّوءِ مِثْلَهَا، قَالَ‏:‏ إِذًا نُكْثِرُ، قَالَ‏:‏ اللَّهُ أَكْثَرُ‏.‏
Grade: Sahih (Al-Albani)

Sunnah.com reference: Book 1, Hadith 107
English reference: Book 31, Hadith 710
Arabic reference: Book 1, Hadith 710
https://sunnah.com/adab/31/107

Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), "The supplication of every one of you will be granted if he does not get impatient and say (for example): 'I supplicated my Rubb but my prayer has not been granted'."

[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

The narration of Muslim is: "The supplication of a slave continues to be granted as long as he does not supplicate for a sinful thing or for something that would cut off the ties of kinship and he does not grow impatient." It was said: "O Messenger of Allah! What does growing impatient mean?" He (ﷺ) said, "It is one's saying: 'I supplicated again and again but I do not think that my prayer will be answered.' Then he becomes frustrated (in such circumstances) and gives up supplication altogether."


وعنه أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال‏:‏ ‏ "‏يستجاب لأحدكم ما لم يعجل‏:‏ يقول‏:‏ قد دعوت ربي، فلم يستجب لي‏"‏ ‏(‏‏(‏متفق عليه‏)‏‏)‏‏.‏ وفي رواية لمسلم لا يزال يستجاب للعبد ما لم يدعُ بإثم أو قطيعة رحم ما لم يستعجل‏.‏ قيل يا رسول الله ما الاستعجال‏؟‏ قال يقول قد دعوت وقد دعوت فلم أرَ من يستجب لي فيستحسر عند ذلك ويدع الدعاء‏.‏
Reference: Riyad as-Salihin 1499
In-book reference: Book 16, Hadith 35
English translation: Book 16, Hadith 1499
https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin/16/35


Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:
O people, Allah is Good and He therefore, accepts only that which is good. And Allah commanded the believers as He commanded the Messengers by saying: "O Messengers, eat of the good things, and do good deeds; verily I am aware of what you do" (xxiii. 51). And He said: "O those who believe, eat of the good things that We gave you" (ii. 172). He then made a mention of a person who travels widely, his hair disheveled and covered with dust. He lifts his hand towards the sky (and thus makes the supplication): "O Lord, O Lord," whereas his diet is unlawful, his drink is unlawful, and his clothes are unlawful and his nourishment is unlawful. How can then his supplication be accepted?

وَحَدَّثَنِي أَبُو كُرَيْبٍ، مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْعَلاَءِ حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو أُسَامَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا فُضَيْلُ بْنُ مَرْزُوقٍ، حَدَّثَنِي عَدِيُّ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ، عَنْ أَبِي حَازِمٍ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ طَيِّبٌ لاَ يَقْبَلُ إِلاَّ طَيِّبًا وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ أَمَرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ بِمَا أَمَرَ بِهِ الْمُرْسَلِينَ فَقَالَ ‏{‏ يَا أَيُّهَا الرُّسُلُ كُلُوا مِنَ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَاعْمَلُوا صَالِحًا إِنِّي بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ عَلِيمٌ‏}‏ وَقَالَ ‏{‏ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا كُلُوا مِنْ طَيِّبَاتِ مَا رَزَقْنَاكُمْ‏}‏ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ ذَكَرَ الرَّجُلَ يُطِيلُ السَّفَرَ أَشْعَثَ أَغْبَرَ يَمُدُّ يَدَيْهِ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ يَا رَبِّ يَا رَبِّ وَمَطْعَمُهُ حَرَامٌ وَمَشْرَبُهُ حَرَامٌ وَمَلْبَسُهُ حَرَامٌ وَغُذِيَ بِالْحَرَامِ فَأَنَّى يُسْتَجَابُ لِذَلِكَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏
Reference: Sahih Muslim 1015
In-book reference: Book 12, Hadith 83
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 5, Hadith 2214
https://sunnah.com/muslim/12/83



If one understands the above three hadiths, should not have any question about dua and Qadr. I will end with following quote from Ibn al-Jawzi (Ra) in one of his books:

AlJawzi said that part of the test is when a believer supplicates and receives no response, and he repeats the du’aa’ for a long time and sees no sign of a response. He should realize that this is a test and needs patience.

What a person experiences of waswaas when the response is delayed is a sickness which needs medicine, I have experienced this myself. A calamity befell me and I supplicated and did not see any response, and Iblees started to lay his traps. Sometimes he said : The generosity (of Allaah) is abundant and He is not miserly, so why is there a delay?

I said to him: Be gone, O cursed one, for I have no need of anyone to argue my case and I do not want you as a supporter!

Then I told myself: Beware of going along with his whispers, for if there was no other reason for the delay except that Allaah is testing you to see whether you will fight the enemy, that is sufficient wisdom.

My soul (nafs) said: How could you explain the delay in the response of Allaah to your prayers for relief from this calamity?

I said: It is proven with evidence that Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, is the Sovereign, and the Sovereign may withhold or give, so there is no point in objecting to Him.

The wisdom behind that is proven in definitive evidence. I may think that something is good, but wisdom does not dictate it, but the reason for that may be hidden, just as a doctor may do things that appear outwardly to be harmful, intending some good purpose thereby. Perhaps this is something of that nature.

There may be an interest to be served by delay, and haste may be harmful. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “A person will be fine so long as he does not become impatient and says, ‘I prayed but I did not receive any answer.’”

The response may be withheld because of some fault in you. Perhaps there was something dubious in what you ate or your heart was heedless at the time when you said the dua, or your punishment is being decreased by means of your need being withheld, because of some sin from which you have not repented sincerely. So look for some of these reasons, so that you might achieve your aim.

You should examine the intention behind this request, because attaining it may lead to more sin, or prevent you from doing some good, so withholding it is better.

Perhaps losing what you have missed out on will cause you to turn to Allah and getting it will distract you from Him. This is obvious, based on the fact that were it not for this calamity you would not have turned to Him, because the real calamity is what distracts you from Him, but what makes you stand before Him is good for you and is in your best interests.

If you ponder these things you will focus on what is more beneficial for you, such as correcting a mistake or seeking forgiveness or standing before Allah and beseeching Him, and forget about what you have missed out on.
Source: Sayd al-Khaatir (59-60). (This publication is in three volumes containing aphorisms and wise counsels)
Below is another article from Islamqa which may help you to find answer to your question:
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/1030...e-not-answered
Reply

Imraan
08-17-2020, 10:35 PM
I just want to say whilst this post has caused much debate and some conflict, for me, such exploration provided me with reminders and some comfort to what I go through on a daily basis.

I took the points of benefit and positivity out as reminders and to refresh and re-feed my understanding. Some very informative posts.

May Allah swt guide us all even when we forget. When we even steer away from the righteous path, let it be brief and let us get back on the righteous path swiftly.

I have so much going on in life, responsibilities, in day to day activities (you all probably do too), sometimes can get busy so I do depend on reminders, virtue and wisdom partially to keep me going and to keep myself on track.

Please remember me, my family and all those struggling in your duas.

Alhamdulillah.
Reply

amnasheikh99
08-17-2020, 10:48 PM
See Abdullah it is the same thing
Did Allah not decree for the person to have haram income and eat haram?
Reply

'Abdullah
08-17-2020, 11:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amnasheikh99
See Abdullah it is the same thing
Did Allah not decree for the person to have haram income and eat haram?
Al-Qadr is a matter of Allah’s Knowledge. No one can uncover his own Qadr except after it occurs. One’s intention to perform a deed precedes the action itself. He does not know what Al-Qadr holds for him. Therefore, Al-Qadr is not a valid excuse for sinning and abandoning the commandments of Allah. Don’t mix your free will with Qadr.

It was reported that a man who was caught stealing was brought to 'Umar Ibn Al-Khattab may Allah be pleased with him who ordered that this man’s hand be cut off. The man said: “Wait, O leader of the believers! I only stole because this was in the Qadr of Allah." 'Umar may Allah be pleased with him replied “And we are amputating your hand because it is in the Qadr of Allah.”
Reply

amnasheikh99
08-18-2020, 05:11 AM
There is no free will if Allah has already preordained everything..
Reply

Ümit
08-18-2020, 05:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by amnasheikh99
There is no free will if Allah has already preordained everything..
Are you serious? we've had a whole discussion about preordainment, qadr and free will and this is what you came up with in the end?
Reply

amnasheikh99
08-18-2020, 05:44 AM
No, It is only logical. Allah wrote down our qadr 50k years before He made this world. So, If the concept of free will applies, that Qadr would not be absolute> Right? now you need to think with a broad mind.


If Allah knows what we are gonna do, and preordained our schooling, our marriage, our life etc, then there are two cases
Either He is in control of everything
or
Because of our freewill He himself does not know what is written in the preserved tabled (nauzubillah)
Reply

'Abdullah
08-18-2020, 06:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by amnasheikh99
There is no free will if Allah has already preordained everything..
It’s wrong understanding of the Qadr, and used mostly By bad people to justify their wrong doings. They don’t want to take responsibility of their bad actions and blame their actions on their Qadr. Please listen to the video below:

And hope it will help you to understand the right balance one should keep.
Ma’aSalaam
Reply

Ümit
08-18-2020, 06:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by amnasheikh99
No, It is only logical. Allah wrote down our qadr 50k years before He made this world. So, If the concept of free will applies, that Qadr would not be absolute> Right? now you need to think with a broad mind.


If Allah knows what we are gonna do, and preordained our schooling, our marriage, our life etc, then there are two cases
Either He is in control of everything
or
Because of our freewill He himself does not know what is written in the preserved tabled (nauzubillah)
So according to you something is false in the Quraan...either Allah is not omnipotent or Allah is not just...

This is what you believe? are you a muslimah at all? because you accused me that I influenced your faith negatively...but if this is what you really believe...then there is something terribly wrong with your faith don't you think?
Reply

amnasheikh99
08-18-2020, 08:16 AM
bahahahahah,, I used ur logic.
I know Allah is the truth, i wrote earlier, that i solemnly believe in the power of dua..


I guess your faith isn't strong enough to fathom some controversial questions, instead you start to question others because you can't come up with ur logic.. Didn't u say the same thing a while ago, that it means either Allah is not omniscient or He doesn't know....

But you know what they say
arguing with a fool only proves there are two of them

So you are right, i am wrong , stay happy with your shattered ego
Reply

Ümit
08-18-2020, 10:19 AM
OK...Let's give it one more try...
The relationship between Qadr and free will explained as easy as possible as far as I have understood from Abdullah and Risinglights explanations:

There are two types of qadr:
nr1 existed 50.000 years before all creation already, contains everything that a person will do, say, get in his/her whole lifetime until the smallest detail...nothing will be skipped and nothing can be changed no matter how much dua one makes.
nr2 a yearly list of what you may get or achieve depending on your decision making, effort, dua etc.now let us pretend Qadr nr1 does not exist. only nr2 with a yearly list with potential opportunities etc.the

list for 2020:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
you will get a job at Apple as a salesmanager if you take 100 hours of preparation time for your job application and make dua every day.
otherwise you will work at mc Donalds behind the counter if you take 50 hours of preparation time and make dua once a week.
any less, you will not have a job at all for 2020.

you will not get married in 2020.

...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, now it is up to you what you make of the year 2020. depending on your effort, dua amount of ibadah, how you live your life, you will work at Apple, MC Donalds or not work at all.and you will not marry in 2020 no matter how much dua you make...maybe 2021.etc.

you have full control of your free will...and nothing is affecting it. of course shaytaan is trying to influence it and the worldly conditions you live in have some effect, but it is fully up to you what you decide at those situations.

Parallel to that, everything you do is written down in a book with a red cover with the greatest detail.and then 2021, 2022, and the years after that the same...until the day you die.
when you die, the book with red cover will be closed and the title is written on it "Amnasheiks Qadr nr1"...put in a time machine and send back in time 50.000 years before all creation.

now lets go back to the year 2020

your opportunities for 2020 listed in qadr nr2 remain the same...you still have full control of your free will.
somewhere there is this book Qadr nr1 with red cover but that doesn't affect your free will in any way...but if you would open it and read the page of today, you would read exactly that what you just did or decided...because it is the book from the future.
So everything is exactly the same...you would make the same decision, the same effort everything the same.

that is the relationship between free will and the two types of qadr.of course the reality is much more complex...and maybe not everything is exactly the way I described...but in laymen language, something like this.
Reply

amnasheikh99
08-28-2020, 02:48 PM
but what about the things that are beyond our control? for instance, the times when a patient is dying, and it is a common practice for the doctors to tell that only dua can save that man! what about those instances?
or what if a husband wants to divorce his wife, or vice versa, and the other party has done everything to change their mind, should they not make dua for things to change ( esp in a society where divorce is taboo for women) should she pray to Allah
Reply

'Abdullah
08-28-2020, 04:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amnasheikh99
but what about the things that are beyond our control? for instance, the times when a patient is dying, and it is a common practice for the doctors to tell that only dua can save that man! what about those instances?
or what if a husband wants to divorce his wife, or vice versa, and the other party has done everything to change their mind, should they not make dua for things to change ( esp in a society where divorce is taboo for women) should she pray to Allah
That’s when you need the dua the most.
Reply

amnasheikh99
08-29-2020, 07:27 AM
but this is where i get confused, We don't know whether the death of the person through that disease is written or not, We are told we can't make dua without effort, then what?
Reply

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