Question about temple mount and masjid al aqsa

[Abdulah97]

Assalam alaikum,

I am having a debate with someone but hes making claims and I am not sure how to look up for more context, maybe someone on here is more knowledgeable on the topic?

Point one:

The person is talking about temple mount and how its the holiest site in Judaism and how masjid al aqsa should not have been built on top of it because apparently that site is holy to Judiasm and that temple mount was there first.

I want to understand more context in regarding this, is their anything in the bible or Quran that talks about this instance? Was it maybe a punishment to the Israelites? Not sure how to counter that temple mount argument.

Basically hes using temple mount argument to justify all thats happening in Palestine, he doesn't care that Palestine is the one whos oppresed, he doesn't care that the zionists were forced on the Palestines after 1948, he doesn't care about the children and women being killed, so basically their is no point in arguing with him, but I did want to look into historical context in regards to temple mount, who was there first, why was the mosque built on top of it etc...

Point two:

Hes talking about Islam having a history of taking over Christian religious icons and claiming them as their own such as Hagia Sophia.

From my knowledge, that place originally belonged to the ottomans, but then the turkish president turned it into a museum and now finally Erdogan turned it into a mosque, so I see nothing wrong there?

Also any specific instances where Christians or Jews conquered mosques and claimed them as churches? If you can link me to videos where American soldiers are destroying mosques, I remember seeing some when the US invaded Iraq.

Point three:

Hes talking about how Islam has "give me everything BUT HOW DARE YOU TAKE FROM ME". mentality and thats just not true, Islam is the most hated and attacked religion, as an ummah we are very weak so i don't know what this guys talking about here

Please if you can help me counter these three points, with some references would be amazing Jazak Allah!

[SintoDinto]

Basically tell him what's in the Qur'an and sunnah. The qur'an came to abrogate the torah, and so the masjid al aqsa is in a superior position to the temple mount and the jews were not there anyway so they had a right to build what they want over it, since thejews had fled for hundreds of years. also, lastly brother, i advise you to avoid debating fools online, so close the discussion there. no use losing your temper or your faith over what we ourselves are certain. "And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper." 2:120 quran

[SintoDinto]

plus many of these so called islamophobes are russian bots or israeli bots, basically ai programs used to annoy people, not actually people, tools of government to spread fake news or gaslight people online, especially muslims.

[Abdulah97]

Appreciate the advice! I just always come at it of an angle to let them know atleast they are wrong before blocking them so maybe they think about what they said but yeah these islamphobes don't care about truth.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Ümit]

About point two.
The ottomans conquered Constantinople...with it the Haga Sophia...they could do with it as they pleased...but still had the decency to use the already religion related building also for religious purposes...so they turned it into a mosque.
Later on it became a museum...and now a mosque again.

What is wrong with that?

The whole world has seen what the armeniers have done with the mosques in the occupied lands...they used it as stalls for their pigs and other farm animals.

Would they be happier if we did the same to the Haga Sophia?

The point is...whatever you do to the Haga Sophia...it is always a thorn in the eye to them.
They should mind their own business.

[Ümit]

Point one.
Moses is not only the prophet of the Jews...it is also our prophet (Musa as)
Jesus is not only Christian god or prophet...we also believe Jesus as a prophet.

Those grounds are not only holy for Jews and Christians...it is also holy for us. We have equal rights to claim it. İt is not the building that makes the Al Aqsa Mosque holy...it is the location...so any other location would be useless.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Abdulah97;

This might help.
Here are a few passages from the Old Testament in the Bible taken from Jewish scripture. It talk about how Israelis should treat aliens, or in today’s language, refugees, foreigners living in Israel.

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
.
Ezekiel 47
21 “You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.

Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

[Abdulah97]

Basically tell him what's in the Qur'an and sunnah. The qur'an came to abrogate the torah, and so the masjid al aqsa is in a superior position to the temple mount and the jews were not there anyway so they had a right to build what they want over it, since thejews had fled for hundreds of years. also, lastly brother, i advise you to avoid debating fools online, so close the discussion there. no use losing your temper or your faith over what we ourselves are certain. "And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper." 2:120 quran

Jazak Allah for reply

So I just want to be clear, the Zionists oppressing the Palestinians and taking their land is not because of temple mount right? The guy I was debating with sounds like hes justifying the actions of Zionists due to temple mount saying "if you cry for Palestine freedom, then Islam should return temple mount back to the Jews" Basically it sounds like his argument is "Israel can do whatever to Palestine, including killing innocent civilians unless temple mount is handed back"

From my limited understanding, the Zionists are straight up oppressing and killing Palestinians , regardless if its innocent children or women involved in the hopes to completely take over Palestine, temple mount is not the reason why they are doing this... From the news I was reading, I don't ever remember anyone mentioning temple mount as the root cause of everything going on in Palestine...

I want to be sure, because I feel like if I approach him with "Islam comes after Judaism and Christianity therefore Muslims have a right to that holy site" he will just say "see Islam is the oppressor" I want to come at it from an angle that real Jews are against the actions of Zionists and that those real Jews don't think killing innocent Palestinians over temple mount is right... Just not sure if that's actually the position of Jews...

Also history wise, the Jews lived peacefully under the ottomans until ww2 where the power vacuum introduced Zionists and instead of living at peace with the Muslims they decide to oppress them even though we allowed them to live peacefully with us during the ottoman reign and did not oppress them correct?

[Abdulah97]

Greetings and peace be with you Abdulah97;

This might help.
Here are a few passages from the Old Testament in the Bible taken from Jewish scripture. It talk about how Israelis should treat aliens, or in today’s language, refugees, foreigners living in Israel.

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
.
Ezekiel 47
21 “You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.

Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

Highly appreciate these references thank you!

So what does the old testament say about killing innocents?

We know in Islam that this is prohibited EVEN DURING WAR! And I am sure that the old testament also mentions this but I don't have a specific reference...

Also from what I read, the orthodox Jews are actually against the Zionists because apparently they are not supposed to have a homeland yet because God cursed them and in the old testament it says they shall never have any land. So the orthodox Jews says that the Zionists are going against the teachings of the old testament by forcing Israel as a free state but again I don't have a reference from the old testament.

If you can help me with reference, would be highly appreciated, its okay if not I will just do more research!

[Abdulah97]

Point one.
Moses is not only the prophet of the Jews...it is also our prophet (Musa as)
Jesus is not only Christian god or prophet...we also believe Jesus as a prophet.

Those grounds are not only holy for Jews and Christians...it is also holy for us. We have equal rights to claim it. İt is not the building that makes the Al Aqsa Mosque holy...it is the location...so any other location would be useless.

Thing is, these people are straight islamophobes, so an argument of "Islam abrogates preceding religions" will go over their head since they don't view us as a true religion.

I was hoping to maybe use history or use the view of orthodox Jews to counter his silly argument. Besides, the Zionists aren't oppressing Palestinians because of temple mount, but they are doing so because they hate Islam and want to take over Palestine and claim their land, so the islamophobe I am debating is very biased...

[Abdulah97]

About point two.
The ottomans conquered Constantinople...with it the Haga Sophia...they could do with it as they pleased...but still had the decency to use the already religion related building also for religious purposes...so they turned it into a mosque.
Later on it became a museum...and now a mosque again.

What is wrong with that?

The whole world has seen what the armeniers have done with the mosques in the occupied lands...they used it as stalls for their pigs and other farm animals.

Would they be happier if we did the same to the Haga Sophia?

The point is...whatever you do to the Haga Sophia...it is always a thorn in the eye to them.
They should mind their own business.

This is straight gold here thank you so much!

[Ümit]

Thing is, these people are straight islamophobes, so an argument of "Islam abrogates preceding religions" will go over their head since they don't view us as a true religion.

I was hoping to maybe use history or use the view of orthodox Jews to counter his silly argument. Besides, the Zionists aren't oppressing Palestinians because of temple mount, but they are doing so because they hate Islam and want to take over Palestine and claim their land, so the islamophobe I am debating is very biased...

You asked, and I quote:

I want to understand more context in regarding this, is their anything in the bible or Quran that talks about this instance?

I understand you cannot use this argument against them but then again, if you look for usable arguments only in sources they acknowledge, then you will lose the game anyway.
a lot of those Jews do not play fair.
you should read about what the Talmud has to say about gentiles.
The Talmud is one of their holy books and totally human written. According to that book, Jews are allowed to lie, cheat, rob or even kill gentiles.

In fact, they do not even consider them human. what shocked me the most is how they look at non-jewish people.

Midrasch Talpioth, p. 255, Warsaw 1855:

"Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an animal. Therfore he will be served by animals in human form."

So arguing with these people would be pointless.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Abdulah97;

So what does the old testament say about killing innocents?

Is everyone innocent in the eyes of God? Or do we all sin?


I Samuel 15.
Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Death is not the final answer. God can have people killed in this life, but God can also raise people up to a greater good life after death.

Israel is a mainly secular country, so they have no prophet now like Samuel who commanded them to kill the Amalekites. God said to the Jews many times, if you obey my commands, then I will be with you. But if you turn against me, then I will bring curses down on you.

Scriptures are written in such a way, that if you want to kill someone; then you can find ways to justify your actions. If you want to be kind to someone, then you don't need scriptures to justify your actions, kindness is just right. If a Christian gives the Jews the right to kill Palestinians; they are ignoring the greatest commandments to Love God and to love ALL your neighbours as you love yourself. You can do nothing greater. We are even commanded to love and pray for our enemies.

We are all created by the same God, the same God hears all our prayers. We have a duty to care for all of God's creation, that has to mean caring for each other despite our differences.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'.
Eric

[Abdulah97]

Thanks to everyone who helped me out here, the guy I was debating admitted he was very biased and told me "the booze gets me going" but he did say we will never find common ground but atleast we gave him something to think about, Allah will do the rest.