Age of Marriage in Islam

[Eddy]

I love to listen to informal debates from Speaker's Corner videos.
These debates are between Muslim apologists and polemicists usually against Christians.
None of them are scholars so the information can be deceiving since they are more interested in winning an argument and defending their own religion than arriving at the truth.
There are topics that are always addressed over and over.
The age of marriage in Islam is one of them and after all these debates it is still not clear to me.
My understanding is that there is no age of marriage in Islam but a few conditions must be met in order for a marriage to be lawful under Islam.
The most important thing is the age of the woman and that is determined by her psychological state, I mean, is she mentally mature to get married?
Then is the physical maturity.
Is she physically developed into a woman or is she still a child?
How does Islam determine both of those?
Is it just the decision of her parents?
Is puberty a factor?
Where is the information?
In the the Quran or the Hadith?

[wealthbuilder]

I love to listen to informal debates from Speaker's Corner videos.
These debates are between Muslim apologists and polemicists usually against Christians.
None of them are scholars so the information can be deceiving since they are more interested in winning an argument and defending their own religion than arriving at the truth.
There are topics that are always addressed over and over.
The age of marriage in Islam is one of them and after all these debates it is still not clear to me.
My understanding is that there is no age of marriage in Islam but a few conditions must be met in order for a marriage to be lawful under Islam.
The most important thing is the age of the woman and that is determined by her psychological state, I mean, is she mentally mature to get married?
Then is the physical maturity.
Is she physically developed into a woman or is she still a child?
How does Islam determine both of those?
Is it just the decision of her parents?
Is puberty a factor?
Where is the information?
In the the Quran or the Hadith?

It is ideal to marry after puberty as per Islam. However according to today laws of local governments, the ideal marriage can be after completion of 18 years. And the boy should be able to earn something to sustain the family. The sooner the marriage, its better to avoid sins.

[Eddy]

It is ideal to marry after puberty as per Islam

If I understood correctly when you said " it is Ideal to marry after puberty", that implies that although it is ideal, it is actually not mandatory under Islamic law to marry only after puberty, is that correct?

[SintoDinto]

If I understood correctly when you said " it is Ideal to marry after puberty", that implies that although it is ideal, it is actually not mandatory under Islamic law to marry only after puberty, is that correct?

youd be surprised how lustful an 11 year old (or even 10 year old) boy can be. trust me, i was one. for my childhood friend no less. and while we're talking about it, don't girls get discrimminated against in islam for expressing their sexuality in the name of culture not islam? if someone is mature enough, let them marry. but in the modern age, someone like the 11 year old me or even 15 year old me or its middle eastern equivalent is often not ready to get married. and my personal take, its better to go to school, but if it gets in the way, and if cultural norms are present that take precedent over school (like the Meskhetian/ahiska turks who get their girls married at age 18, and if they dont by age 20 they're considered "oturarak" basically couch potatoes, no im not a meskhetian but i know some) let them marry. some days i wonder what direction my life wouldve taken if i had taken an apprentice at the age of 18, maybe 16 after a GED (here in the us you can get an exam instead of 4 years high school), and gotten married to lower my gaze and avoid haram and simping. im still struggling, pray for me brothers. yes, 16. why not let them get married at age 16 and judge them yet not judge a 16 year old single mother or father who made a bad decision? (as for me, im still trying to further my education, perhaps in medicine, because im learning to control myself)

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[Eddy]

So just to make sure since it is still not clear to me.
Is it ok under Islam to marry before puberty? Yes or No?

[Mo123]

The answer is no. One isn't allowed to marry before puberty.

[- Qatada -]

Attachment 7382

[404]

If I understood correctly when you said " it is Ideal to marry after puberty", that implies that although it is ideal, it is actually not mandatory under Islamic law to marry only after puberty, is that correct?

His wording would imply that (I'm sure unintentionally), but no, that is not correct.

[wealthbuilder]

If I understood correctly when you said " it is Ideal to marry after puberty", that implies that although it is ideal, it is actually not mandatory under Islamic law to marry only after puberty, is that correct?

Please read the complete sentence

It is ideal to marry after puberty as per Islam. However, according to today's laws of local governments, the ideal marriage can be after the completion of 18 years.

The minimum age for marriage is puberty. It can be done anytime after that.

[Eddy]

The minimum age for marriage is puberty. It can be done anytime after that.

Thank you so much for your clarification.
Now I'm gong crazy googling where are the scriptures that support what you're saying.
If any of you could be kind enough to provide a link I would certainly appreciate it.

[Eddy]

The answer is no. One isn't allowed to marry before puberty.

His wording would imply that (I'm sure unintentionally), but no, that is not correct.

Your responses are appreciated but I am more interested in answers based on real instructions from Allah or prophet Mohammad (The Quran or the Hadith).Can you provide actual scriptures quotes?Your answers are based on what?

[Eddy]

Quran 65:4

As for your women past the age of menstruation, in case you do not know, their waiting period is three months, and those who have not menstruated as well. As for those who are pregnant, their waiting period ends with delivery.1 And whoever is mindful of Allah, He will make their matters easy for them.

The Quran says that the waiting period to divorce for women who have not menstruated yet (that is puberty) is 3 months.
You can draw the conclusion that Allah allows marriage before puberty according to Quran 65:4
I cannot find in the Quran any verse indicating women are not allowed to marry before puberty.
Can you help me find any verse?

[Labayk]

Hi Eddy,

Where is the information?
In the the Quran or the Hadith?

There is a hadith narrated by Aisha (May Allah be Pleased with her) the wife of the Prophet (May Allah's Peace and Blessings be Upon Him)

Narrated `Aisha:

that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death). (Bukhari)

Is puberty a factor?

A man can marry a girl before puberty but it is not consummated until she reaches puberty and is physically capable for that as that Hadith shows. Aisha (RadiAllahu Anha) said about herself that she had reached puberty by that time.

Is it just the decision of her parents?

In Islam every woman is accounted for. What I mean is every woman has a guardian (Wali) who is supposed to take care of her and protect her and her interests. For a girl, the one who would be this primarily is the father. The father therefore has to accept such an arrangement which in the case of the Prophet (Salalahu 'Alaihi wa Salaam) the father was Abu Bakr who was the closest friend and follower of Muhammed (Salalahu 'Alaihi wa Salaam) who of course accepted.

Please note that boys and girls mature much faster when brought up in harsher environments and Arabia was the harshest. They are able to cope with difficulties that the modern man or woman deems impossible. As for this modern age of ours, then so many adults (let alone children) are unable to cope with even the basic affairs of life and are incredibly immature due to the modern lifestyle/upbringing so I can see (to an extent) why some are shocked to hear of the young age of the wife of the Prophet (Salalahu 'Alaihi wa Salaam), but they should be to able to understand that this was perfectly normal not just for Arabs but the world over and that not everything is going to go according to modern sensibilities nor does it need to.

Please feel free to ask anymore questions. I hope that helps.

[Eddy]

Is puberty a factor?
A man can marry a girl before puberty but it is not consummated until she reaches puberty and is physically capable for that as that Hadith shows. Aisha (RadiAllahu Anha) said about herself that she had reached puberty by that time.

Narrated `Aisha:

"I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me.
When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me."
(The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13)


حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدٌ، أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو مُعَاوِيَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامٌ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ قَالَتْ كُنْتُ أَلْعَبُ بِالْبَنَاتِ عِنْدَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَكَانَ لِي صَوَاحِبُ يَلْعَبْنَ مَعِي، فَكَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم إِذَا دَخَلَ يَتَقَمَّعْنَ مِنْهُ، فَيُسَرِّبُهُنَّ إِلَىَّ فَيَلْعَبْنَ مَعِي‏.‏

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 6130
In-book reference : Book 78, Hadith 157
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 151

It seems we have Hadith contradictions here.
Can you show the complete Hadith with the complete reference on the Hadith you're talking about?

[Karl]

Hi Eddy,



There is a hadith narrated by Aisha (May Allah be Pleased with her) the wife of the Prophet (May Allah's Peace and Blessings be Upon Him)

Narrated `Aisha:

that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death). (Bukhari)




A man can marry a girl before puberty but it is not consummated until she reaches puberty and is physically capable for that as that Hadith shows. Aisha (RadiAllahu Anha) said about herself that she had reached puberty by that time.



In Islam every woman is accounted for. What I mean is every woman has a guardian (Wali) who is supposed to take care of her and protect her and her interests. For a girl, the one who would be this primarily is the father. The father therefore has to accept such an arrangement which in the case of the Prophet (Salalahu 'Alaihi wa Salaam) the father was Abu Bakr who was the closest friend and follower of Muhammed (Salalahu 'Alaihi wa Salaam) who of course accepted.

Please note that boys and girls mature much faster when brought up in harsher environments and Arabia was the harshest. They are able to cope with difficulties that the modern man or woman deems impossible. As for this modern age of ours, then so many adults (let alone children) are unable to cope with even the basic affairs of life and are incredibly immature due to the modern lifestyle/upbringing so I can see (to an extent) why some are shocked to hear of the young age of the wife of the Prophet (Salalahu 'Alaihi wa Salaam), but they should be to able to understand that this was perfectly normal not just for Arabs but the world over and that not everything is going to go according to modern sensibilities nor does it need to.

Please feel free to ask anymore questions. I hope that helps.

Great post, I fully agree. I would say though that (many/most) girls and boys are maturing much later in these mollycoddled effeminate modern times due to being psychologically DUMBED DOWN, rather than the environment itself being "less harsher than Arabia of Aisha's time." It's more to do with the dumbed down infantile social environment they are subjected to. We are living in a globalist cultural-Marxist age-fixated tyranny which is rabidly and fanatically opposed to the enfranchisement and freedoms of children and youths to engage in things that the globalist liberal tyrants deem "adults only" (such as soldiering, marriage, sex, employment in the work force, etc). Physically and sexually speaking though, I don't think children today are developing any later than they did in olden times. All my daughters were sexually mature by age 8/9, but most certainly that WASN'T because I kept them well away from the toxic influences of the new matriarchalist globalist liberal tyranny (or being in the company of the masses of brain-dead zombies who blindly worship it's mindset and values).

Even more unfortunately it would appear that, not only just Westerners, but now even the majority of today's "Muslims" as well have been insidiously mindwashed by this treacherous western globalist tyranny, to the extent that they will quite arrogantly and shamelessly confront, attack, and altercate with those such as you and I who point out truths such as this! So I think it would be fair enough to say that most modern day Muslims subjected to the leftist tyrannical poisonous wokery of the west (and subsequently mentally succumbing to it) cannot be said to be genuine Muslims. They have strayed from the right path, either knowingly or obliviously.

[Labayk]

I fully agree. I would say though that (many/most) girls and boys are maturing much later in these mollycoddled effeminate modern times due to being psychologically DUMBED DOWN

I agree with your point as well as mine. The dumbing down of the youth and masses is definitely a contributing factor to the great lack of maturity we see in general. Actually, I was referring to mental/psychological maturity more than physical maturity. Harsh environments breed men and women of considerable mental fortitude. Even in America, I remember in history class seeing a picture of boys who worked on the railroads. They looked like little men in their demeaner and dress even though they were only 9 or 10.

Growing up around family is also a major factor. In tribal Arabia, boys and girls grew up around all kinds of family members and observed all sorts of familial dealings. This is how children grow up to be socially competent. This is how they grow up to be able to shoulder the big responsibilities of family life early on.
@Eddy

It seems we have Hadith contradictions here.

No we don't. It doesn't say in that hadith that they had consummated the marriage yet.

[Eddy]

It doesn't say in that hadith that they had consummated the marriage yet.

(78)Chapter: Consummation Of Marriage With A Girl Of Nine(78)باب الْبِنَاءِ بِابْنَةِ تِسْعٍ ‏.‏
It was narrated that 'Aisha said:
"The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls."

أَخْبَرَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ آدَمَ، عَنْ عَبْدَةَ، عَنْ هِشَامٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، قَالَتْ تَزَوَّجَنِي رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَأَنَا بِنْتُ سِتٍّ وَدَخَلَ عَلَىَّ وَأَنَا بِنْتُ تِسْعِ سِنِينَ وَكُنْتُ أَلْعَبُ بِالْبَنَاتِ ‏.‏

Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)
Reference : Sunan an-Nasa'i 3378
In-book reference : Book 26, Hadith 183
English translation : Vol. 4, Book 26, Hadith 3380

So we have Aisha saying she and the prophet consummated their marriage at age 9.
We already know that the prophet took Aisha to one of his houses at age 9 when she was still playing with dolls.
During the time she lived with the prophet she was still playing with dolls which was allowed to her only because she had not reached puberty.
Do we need to spell it to you?

[Ghost1987]

I don't think age matters
You have to be responsible in raising good kids and feeding

[Muhammad]

Hello Eddy,

During the time she lived with the prophet she was still playing with dolls which was allowed to her only because she had not reached puberty.
Do we need to spell it to you?

Firstly, the fact that Aisha رضي الله عنها played with dolls is not a decisive proof that she had not reached the age of puberty. We need to be careful here not to conflate different perceptions of maturity such as focusing entirely on superficial age limits.

More importantly, I find it odd that you presented yourself as someone interested in Islam yet seem solely preoccupied with doubts and suspicions levelled by anti-Islamic individuals. You started this thread claiming that this issue was not clear to you, yet seem very well prepared to bring detailed Islamic evidences and even have the audacity to allege that they contradict! We have been patient with your threads listing one allegation after another but I'm afraid we won't be entertaining threads of this nature from you again. As Muslims, we know that accusations from those who have a hatred for Islam will not cease and we are not in need of trying to justify our beliefs to those whose intentions are not in the right place to begin with.

[Karl]

(78)Chapter: Consummation Of Marriage With A Girl Of Nine(78)باب الْبِنَاءِ بِابْنَةِ تِسْعٍ ‏.‏
It was narrated that 'Aisha said:
"The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls."

أَخْبَرَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ آدَمَ، عَنْ عَبْدَةَ، عَنْ هِشَامٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، قَالَتْ تَزَوَّجَنِي رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَأَنَا بِنْتُ سِتٍّ وَدَخَلَ عَلَىَّ وَأَنَا بِنْتُ تِسْعِ سِنِينَ وَكُنْتُ أَلْعَبُ بِالْبَنَاتِ ‏.‏

Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)
Reference : Sunan an-Nasa'i 3378
In-book reference : Book 26, Hadith 183
English translation : Vol. 4, Book 26, Hadith 3380

So we have Aisha saying she and the prophet consummated their marriage at age 9.
We already know that the prophet took Aisha to one of his houses at age 9 when she was still playing with dolls.
During the time she lived with the prophet she was still playing with dolls which was allowed to her only because she had not reached puberty.
Do we need to spell it to you?

I think you might be misinterpreting Aisha. Her statement there is not explicitly clear about when she was playing with dolls. You assume that because she had mentioned that she had "played with dolls" immediately after mentioning her marriage was consummated at 9 that she "must have therefore been playing with dolls at 9", but she DID say in the SAME sentence that she had married at age 6. I have often read that Aisha was playing with dolls at 6, not 9. This does also seem more plausible too because while it could be reasonable enough that a 6 year old would be interested in playing with dolls, for a NINE year old to be still doing that verges on retarded mental development, or what they call "special needs". Records demonstrate that Aisha was intelligent, not retarded, therefore it's very unlikely that she was still "playing with dolls" at such a late age.

[Labayk]

So we have Aisha saying she and the prophet consummated their marriage at age 9.
We already know that the prophet took Aisha to one of his houses at age 9 when she was still playing with dolls.
During the time she lived with the prophet she was still playing with dolls which was allowed to her only because she had not reached puberty.
Do we need to spell it to you?

Agnostic eh?

Like it's already been stated the quote you gave from Aisha (Radiallahu Anha) doesn't show that she was playing with dolls after nine. Even if it does, her playing with dolls after age nine wouldn't mean she didn't reach puberty at the age of nine.

Aisha herself said: "when a girl reaches the age of 9 then she is a woman". She said this about herself.

I mean, think about it, you are trying to imply that the Prophet (May God's Peace and Blessings Be Upon Him) consummated the marriage with Aisha before she reached puberty. If he is going to do that, then why would he wait three years? Obviously, something significant must have happened at the age of nine for him to stop waiting and consummate the marriage.

No need to spell it out for me.

[Eddy]

I think you might be misinterpreting Aisha. Her statement there is not explicitly clear about when she was playing with dolls. You assume that because she had mentioned that she had "played with dolls"

(The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. ...

I'm sorry if my curiosity is causing displeasure as explained by Muhammad.
I'm interested in studying and getting to know the real Islam.
I can get the answers in many other places but I figured this is an "Islamic Forum" so who better to give me answers about Islam.
My little research shows that Islam allows underage marriage.
The Tafsir by Ibn Kathir for Quran 65:4 seems very clear to me.
I'm an Agnostic, liberal and very western and in no way I condemn Islam for the rules emanating from Allah.
Why should Muslims feel ashamed or uncomfortable for the rules coming from your God?
Sorry again, I would not ask any questions in the future if that makes you uneasy.

[Hamza Asadullah]

I love to listen to informal debates from Speaker's Corner videos.
These debates are between Muslim apologists and polemicists usually against Christians.
None of them are scholars so the information can be deceiving since they are more interested in winning an argument and defending their own religion than arriving at the truth.
There are topics that are always addressed over and over.
The age of marriage in Islam is one of them and after all these debates it is still not clear to me.
My understanding is that there is no age of marriage in Islam but a few conditions must be met in order for a marriage to be lawful under Islam.
The most important thing is the age of the woman and that is determined by her psychological state, I mean, is she mentally mature to get married?
Then is the physical maturity.
Is she physically developed into a woman or is she still a child?
How does Islam determine both of those?
Is it just the decision of her parents?
Is puberty a factor?
Where is the information?
In the the Quran or the Hadith?

Greetings Eddy,

Firstly, we cannot judge the actions of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) nor anyone else of that era, nor the era before it and nor the era after it, using a moral compass that is only applicable to the modern society of today. How can anyone of the current era seek to impose current standards and moral judgments on practices that occurred over 1400 years ago, where the rules, standards and cultural norms were significantly different to the cultural rules, norms, standards and customs of today?

However, what we do know for sure is that child marriage was a completely normal and accepted practice in those days, not only in the society that the Prophet (Peace be upon him) lived in but many other societies in that era, the era before it and the era after it too. In fact, it is only in the last century or so that the age of marriage in the west has gone up to 16. In fact you will find that over 100 years ago many places including in the west Like the US for example had ages of consent from 7 to 10. [Arthur Siccan – ‘What’s Wrong in America: A Look at Troublesome Issues in Our Country’]

Even in many parts of the world even today including in some US states the minimum age of marriage is still 13. So how can anyone from today's societies accuse the people of the Prophet's (Peace be upon him) era and the era's before and the eras after it of low moral conduct and standards when many places in the world including the west had similar ages of consent over 100 years ago? Does this not wreak of double standards? There's obviously a nefarious agenda at play.

There are obviously differences of opinions as to exactly what age Aisha was when she was married to the Prophet (Peace be upon him), but what we do know for sure is that the marriage was only consummated once she reached the age of puberty. Let us look at some further facts throughout history with regards to child marriage:

- The last of the ten gurus in Sikhism, Guru Gobind Singh, married a 12-year-old girl called Mata Sundari. [D. D. Dhillon (1988). Sikhism Origin and Development.]

- Mary married Joseph when she was between the age of 12-14 and Joseph was 90. [Charles Souvay – St. Joseph – (1910) The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 8.]

- Jewish law states that the age of consent for girls to marry is 12, regardless of whether they have reached puberty or not. However, the kiddushin (betrothal) can take place even before this age. [http://www.jewfaq.org/marriage.htm]

- Over 100 years ago in the US the age of consent was as low as 7 years of age. [Arthur Siccan – ‘What’s Wrong in America: A Look at Troublesome Issues in Our Country’]

- The age of consent today in Nigeria is 11, in Philippines it's 12 and in Japan its 13.

Colin Turner of the University of Durham Middle East Studies department explains the context of the Prophet’s (Peace be upon him) marriage:

A marriage between an older man and a young girl was customary among the Bedouins, as it still is in many societies across the world today. It was not unheard of in Muhammad’s time for boys and girls to be promised to each other in marriage almost as soon as they were born, particularly if the union was of direct political significance to the families concerned. However, such marriages were almost certainly not consummated until both parties had entered adulthood, which Arabs in the 7th century tended to reach at an earlier age than Westerners today. It is highly unlikely that Muhammad would have taken Aisha into his bed until she was at least in her early teens, which was wholly in keeping with the customs of the day, and in context not in the least improper.

Source: Turner, Colin. Islam: the basics, Routledge 2006, p. 34-35.

Likewise, Karen Armstrong writes:

There was no impropriety in Muhammad’s betrothal to Aisha. Marriages conducted in absentia to seal an alliance were often contracted at this time between adults and minors who were even younger than Aisha. This practice continued in Europe well into the early modern period. There was no question of consummating the marriage until Aisha reached puberty, when she would be married off like any other girl.

Source: Armstrong, Karen. Muhammad: a prophet for our time, Harper Collins 2006, p. 105.

Christian tradition records a similar marriage between the much older Joseph to the young Virgin Mary. The Catholic Encyclopaedia states:

A year after his wife’s death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates.

Source: Knight, Kevin. The Catholic Encyclopaedia. New Advent, 1995.

Therefore, to conclude, such accusations against the Prophet's (Peace be upon him) marriage to Aisha are very much a modern phenomenon. It was obvious that the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) had many enemies as did all the previous Prophet's before him. His enemies accused him of all sorts of terrible things. However, why do we not also judge him from what his enemies accused him of in that era? So, can you find any accusations of paedophilia from any of his enemies and critics at that time whilst he was alive? Or can you find such an accusations a hundred years after his death? How about 1000 years after his death? Ok let's get brave now. how about 1300 years after his death? There is no doubt that you will only find these allegations as something that has only come about in the last 100 years or so.

Considering everything stated above there is no doubt that there are double standards at play and a nefarious agenda to tarnish the name of the blessed Prophet (Peace be upon him). However, no matter how much the enemies of the Prophet and Islam try to tarnish his name, then Allah has protected him and has made him the best example for humanity to follow which is why he was voted the most influential person in the history of mankind and his example is why more people are reverting to Islam than any other faith, belief or religion on the face of this Earth!

[Muhammad]

Hello Eddy,

Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. ...

Understanding of this issue needs a deeper study than simply looking at a few quotes, otherwise a person can easily draw conclusions that are not correct and which neglect the different types of marriages and maturities in Islamic law. There are various scenarios that have been discussed by the scholars based upon the texts of Islam: divorce that occurs prior to consummation and after consummation. Then there is the issue of what is meant by consummation - sometimes it can mean intercourse, other times it can mean seclusion of the couple. So, one way of understanding the issue at hand is that if a man married a girl who had not started menstruating as she was prepubescent and was then in seclusion with her - yet they did not have intercourse - then they got divorced, in that case she would observe an Iddah of three months, based upon the verse 65:4. However, those women that do not menstruate can include women who reached the age of maturity yet still did not menstruate due to a medical condition. The following sheds more light on this:

...the fact that a girl had not yet reached menarche was only evidence that she had yet to manifest the usual signs pertaining to legal majority—not that she was physically immature. A girl could technically still be considered mature based on other physical features, such as her biological age. With regard to this particular possibility, the leading Central Asian 12th-century jurist, Ali ibn Abu Bakr al- Marghinani (d. 1197), provided this legal context behind the above verse (65:4):

And similarly those who have attained puberty (balaghat) by age, but have not menstruated, based on the end of the verse [“And those who have not menstruated” (65:4)], meaning those who have reached puberty by age, but not by menstruation; [those who have attained puberty] by reaching the age of 15 years according to the opinion of both (Abu Yusuf and Muhammad ibn Hasan al-Shaybani) or 17 years according to the opinion of Abu Hanifah and Malik, but have not yet menstruated; when they divorce they observe a waiting period based on months as well. [Imam ibn al-Humam, Fath al-Qadir, Vol. 4 (n.d.), p. 280.]

It should be clear at this point that had Islam allowed for the sexual exploitation of children, many of these nuances would not exist. Case in point, the Qur’an would have never provided clarifications on the types of women who have waiting periods or even mention a ‘marriageable age’ to begin with if it allowed for any woman, regardless of maturity, to engage in sexual relations. And had jurists permitted such acts they too would never have bothered to distinguish between girls who were physically mature and those who were not. More importantly, however, had the Prophet ﷺ himself been perceived as promoting the exploitation of children, then said scholars would have simply considered the age of nine to be the only condition necessary for a young girl to be considered mature. However, the age of nine has never been mentioned as one of the conditions by which to judge maturity in the Islamic tradition. Rather, jurists derived a completely different understanding from the relationship between the Prophet ﷺ and Aisha (ra): that he had entered a contracted marriage with her when she was six years of age, and then consummated the marriage after she had reached maturity three years later. Simple logical deduction led scholars to conclude that if Islam allowed for the abuse of children, then the Prophet ﷺ would not have needed to wait three full years before finalizing his marriage—but he did wait. He waited because he knew that to do otherwise would have caused harm to his wife, and one of the principle objectives (maqasid) of Islamic law is “the prohibition of subjecting oneself to harm (darar) or causing harm to others (dirar). [Al-Shatibi, Muwafaqat, vol. 3/3, pp. 14-15.]

Obviously, such nuance has been lost on Islamophobes, who in their utter desperation to impugn Islam and its followers, interpret certain passages of the Qur’an as condoning pedophilia or child abuse.

I'm sorry if my curiosity is causing displeasure as explained by Muhammad.
I'm interested in studying and getting to know the real Islam.
I can get the answers in many other places but I figured this is an "Islamic Forum" so who better to give me answers about Islam.
My little research shows that Islam allows underage marriage.
The Tafsir by Ibn Kathir for Quran 65:4 seems very clear to me.
I'm an Agnostic, liberal and very western and in no way I condemn Islam for the rules emanating from Allah.
Why should Muslims feel ashamed or uncomfortable for the rules coming from your God?
Sorry again, I would not ask any questions in the future if that makes you uneasy.

How thoughtful of you. But don't worry, we have entertained the 'curiosity' of numerous visitors to this forum before you, who made similar claims that they just wanted to know the 'real Islam'. And yet, when they had clearly made up their own minds and believed they had found contradictions in our texts despite being shown evidence to the contrary, we realised we were wasting our time. Still, we like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Had we felt in any way ashamed or uncomfortable with the teachings of our religion, we would not have allowed people like your good self to make more than 10 threads questioning them.

[Eddy]

So, one way of understanding the issue at hand is that if a man married a girl who had not started menstruating as she was prepubescent and was then in seclusion with her - yet they did not have intercourse - then they got divorced, in that case she would observe an Iddah of three months, based upon the verse 65:4.

Allow me to disagree a bit here.Based upon verse 65:4 the Iddah would be three months regardless of consummation and regardless of seclusion for women who have not yet menstruated.Consummation is not an issue according to Quran 65:4, menstruation is the issue here.The Quran uses menstruation as the only sign a woman has entered puberty.If they are married but she hasn't menstruated yet, it doesn't matter if they have consummated or not, thewaiting time would be the same (Three months).

With regard to this particular possibility, the leading Central Asian 12th-century jurist, Ali ibn Abu Bakr al- Marghinani (d. 1197), provided this legal context behind the above verse (65:4):And similarly those who have attained puberty (balaghat) by age, but have not menstruated,

"The age of Puberty" is nowhere part of Quran 65:4.The age of Puberty is described as the age a girl matures into a woman regardless of menstruation.That is logical and a scientific fact. Women start developing even before reaching menstruation but Quran 65:4 is far from using this "age of maturity" thing.Quran 65:4 uses menstruation to determine the waiting period.1) No menstruation (old women) = three month2) Regular menstruation (adult women) = three menstrual cycles3) Not menstruating yet (young girl) = Three month That's my understanding based on all reputable Islamic Scholars.

[Muhammad]

Hello Eddy,

Allow me to disagree a bit here.Based upon verse 65:4 the Iddah would be three months regardless of consummation and regardless of seclusion for women who have not yet menstruated.

Rulings of Islam are not based upon one piece of evidence in isolation, rather one needs to look at the teachings in a holistic manner, as I already mentioned above. The verse which shows that there is no Iddah prior to consummation is the following (interpretation of the meaning):

O you who have believed, when you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have touched them [i.e., consummated the marriage], then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them. So provide for them and give them a gracious release. [Qur'an 33:49]

The Quran uses menstruation as the only sign a woman has entered puberty.

I think you are confusing different issues; we are not talking about signs of puberty here. The verse merely delivers a practical rule for determining the waiting period for a divorced woman who, for whatever reason, does not menstruate.

"The age of Puberty" is nowhere part of Quran 65:4.The age of Puberty is described as the age a girl matures into a woman regardless of menstruation.That is logical and a scientific fact. Women start developing even before reaching menstruation but Quran 65:4 is far from using this "age of maturity" thing.

The article does not state this as being part of the verse. It clearly states this is 'a legal context behind the verse', i.e. an interpretation and explanation of its meanings.

It is clear you have already been researching these issues and seem confident in your own study so I am not sure what your purpose of discussing this on an Islamic forum is. You claim you want to know 'the real Islam' yet you are quick to assume there are contradictions in our texts and feel at liberty to offer your own interpretations. One can only conclude you are here to bait people, which is unacceptable. Religion is not entertainment and one does not learn 'true Islam' by listening to debates from Speaker's corner or debating on forums online. It needs a sincere heart to begin with and serious study.

[Scimitar]

I love to listen to informal debates from Speaker's Corner videos.
These debates are between Muslim apologists and polemicists usually against Christians.
None of them are scholars so the information can be deceiving since they are more interested in winning an argument and defending their own religion than arriving at the truth…

so you came to a forum instead, hoping to find scholars

[Eddy]

It is clear you have already been researching these issues and seem confident in your own study so I am not sure what your purpose of discussing this on an Islamic forum

I had never heard of Quran 65:4 before starting this thread, nor the Aisha Hadith nor Quran 33:49.
I may sound confident by my way of writing but that is just your perception.

The verse which shows that there is no Iddah prior to consummation is the following (interpretation of the meaning):
O you who have believed, when you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have touched them [i.e., consummated the marriage], then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them. So provide for them and give them a gracious release. [Qur'an 33:49]

So in light of this Quran verse it is now abundantly clear that Quran verse 65:4 refers exclusively to women who have already married and who have already consummated their marriage.
So the young woman (in Quran 65:4) who have not menstruated yet are women who have consummated their marriage. Otherwise they wouldn't have to wait three month.
So conclusion to the main question of this thread.
Does Islam allow Underage marriage?
Yes it does.
Then how is it not a single Muslim has responded "Yes" to this question?
We know that under Islam Marriage doesn't necessarily means consummation.
And as most Muslims have said consummation has to be done after the woman has reached puberty.
As some say puberty doesn't mean only menstruation but there is an "age of puberty" who can be used instead of menstruation to determine a woman is mature enough to get married.
Again, out of curiosity:
Where does it say that in the Quran or hadith?
Where is the clear statement that prohibits men to have sex with a prepubescent girl?

so you came to a forum instead, hoping to find scholars

No, I've been informed already that there are no scholars here.I came here for answers.
Are you suggesting that an Islamic Forum is not a good place to find answers about Islam?

[Muhammad]

So conclusion to the main question of this thread.
Does Islam allow Underage marriage?
Yes it does.
Then how is it not a single Muslim has responded "Yes" to this question?

Because firstly, the question itself is misleading. Underage according to whom? Secondly, it is not a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer. There is detail and nuance which have been alluded to earlier, but for some reason you have chosen to ignore all that. Thirdly, these issues relating to marriage and divorce, consummation and age of puberty etc. require a detailed understanding of Islamic Law which you cannot hope to attain through internet forums. Even your attempted summary shows you don't understand what's being said.

Again, out of curiosity:
Where does it say that in the Quran or hadith?
Where is the clear statement that prohibits men to have sex with a prepubescent girl?

Please see post #24 in addition to the other responses for important points with regards to this.

No, I've been informed already that there are no scholars here.I came here for answers.
Are you suggesting that an Islamic Forum is not a good place to find answers about Islam?

If you have a medical problem, do you ask on an internet forum? Most people would rather go to a qualified doctor and get the right treatment. Similarly, if you want basic information about Islam, you can ask on an Islamic forum but if you want detailed information about particulars of Islamic Law you should go to a scholar.

However, it seems you are not really here for answers. You admit you never heard of these verses and Ahadith before, yet you seem to be quoting and interpreting them with an agenda to prove a preconceived conclusion. If you have a genuine interest in Islam, there's enough information there to think about. If you are not actually interested in truth, we have better things to do with our time. To avoid going in circles and wasting time, I am closing this thread.