Prove that the Qur'an is NOT the word of God.

[anis_z24]

Salam
I challenge anyone to prove that the Quran is not the word of God.
It is the word of God,There are numerous examples, but lets have who thinks that the Quran is not the word of God to prove it.

[suhura]

I guess no one actually dares to defy god's words. Alhamdulillah!

[Andaraawus]

this is a good post, and i am sure that i wont be ansered in a academic fashion by anybody who posts in oppisistion to the Quran , i will keep my eyes on this thread but we must consider that we are NOT talking about the Bible

so that means no replys to this by proclaiming 'the Koran is not the word of God because the Bbile says in acts :rant: '

in this post and i would like to see that the Quran is the only subject here. wasalams

[Organized Chaos]

if it was, then you would think that allah would know a bit more about science.

"Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.
He said: As to him who is unjust, we will chastise him, then shall he be returned to his Lord, and He will chastise him with an exemplary chastisement:
And as for him who believes and does good, he shall have goodly reward, and We will speak to him an easy word of Our command.
Then he followed (another) course.
Until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people to whom We had given no shelter from It"---18:86-90

this verse(and others in this story) suggest that the earth is flat and the ends are where the sun sets and there is a cave. in actuality, the earth revolves around the sun and the rotation of the earth gives the illusion of the sun moving.

"Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein, and hath set a barrier between the two seas ? Is there any God beside Allah ? Nay, but most of them know not!"---27:61

the earth orbits the sun. the sun orbits the center of the galaxy. the galaxy is moving relative to the rest of the local group. the local group is moving relative to the other galactic clusters, and so on. therefore, it is not fixed.

"And when the stars fall,"---81:2
the only thing i can think of in cosmology where "the stars fall" would be the "big crunch." as of now, it appears that the universe doesn't have enough mass for there to be a big crunch. even if there was, the earth wouldn't be around to see it. the sun would have died long before then.

depending on how you look at it, you could also see the collision of the milkey way with andromeda as the falling of the stars, but the sun, and therefore the earth, will be long gone before that happens.

"And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres."---21:33

the sun does not move in a sphere. that was proven long ago. the celestial sphere theory was superceeded. it took a few hundred years and many lives, but it happened.


"And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?Lo! ye come with lust unto men instead of women. Nay, but ye are wanton folk."---7:80-81

there ARE homosexual animals

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Organized Chaos]

btw, an islamic board is not a good place to challenge someone to challenge the qur'an if you actually want them to try.

[Organized Chaos]

also, who was the first muslim?

"When his Lord said to him, "Submit!" He said, "I have submitted myself (as a Muslim) to the Lord of the Alameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists)."
And this was enjoined by Ibrahim (Abraham) upon his sons and by Yaqoob (Jacob), (saying), "O my sons! Allah has chosen for you the (true) religion, then die not except in the Faith of Islam (as Muslims - Islamic Monotheism)."--- 2:131-132

this says abraham and his sons were muslims.

"And when Moosa (Moses) came at the time and place appointed by Us, and his Lord spoke to him, he said: "O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You." Allah said: "You cannot see Me, but look upon the mountain if it stands still in its place then you shall see Me." So when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He made it collapse to dust, and Moosa (Moses) fell down unconscious. Then when he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to You, I turn to You in repentance and I am the first of the believers.""--- 7:143

this says that moses is the first muslim. but wait, wasn't abraham BEFORE moses???

"And I am commanded (this) in order that I may be the first of those who submit themselves to Allah (in Islam) as Muslims."--- 39:12

this says muhammed was the first!

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

if it was, then you would think that allah would know a bit more about science.

All of your claims without exception have been refuted previously.
http://www.islamicboard.com/47842-post3.html

"Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.
He said: As to him who is unjust, we will chastise him, then shall he be returned to his Lord, and He will chastise him with an exemplary chastisement:
And as for him who believes and does good, he shall have goodly reward, and We will speak to him an easy word of Our command.
Then he followed (another) course.
Until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people to whom We had given no shelter from It"---18:86-90

As Muhammad Asad clarifies:

[And he marched westwards] till, when he came to the setting of the sun," it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea;" and nearby he found a people [given to every kind of wrongdoing].

Or: "abundance of water" - which, according to many philologists (cf. Taj al= Aras), is one of the meanings of `ayn (primarily denoting a "spring"). As for my rendering of the phrase "he found it (wajadaha) setting...", etc., as "it appeared to him that it was setting", see Razi and Ibn Kathir, both of whom point out that we have here a metaphor based on the common optical illusion of the sun's "disappearing into the sea"; and Razi explains this, correctly, by the fact that the earth is spherical. (It is interesting to note that, according to him, this explanation was already advanced in the - now lost - Qur'an-commentary of AN `All al-Jubba i, the famous Mu'tazili scholar who died in 303 H., which corresponds to 915 or 916 of the Christian era.)

Along the same lines:

The verses narrate part of the story of Zul-Qarnain. Being a great traveller Prophet Zul-Qarnain eventually, at sun set, arrived at a place where there were springs of vast murky waters. He found around it tribes of people, some righteous and some malign. The narration goes on to describe how Zul-Qarnain was given authority to rule over them as a just king. It narrates the version of events as he, Zul-Qarnain saw them – he saw the sun set in a murky water, nothing wrong with that. The second verse narrates that Zul-Qarnain turned another direction and travelled on until he saw the sun rise and it just so happens that he saw it rise on a people who were without shade. Again, a very simple narration, no claim of being scientific fact.

The critics who raise this issue and claim that the God of the Quran does not know the simple scientific that the sun never actually sets are barking up the wrong tree. The above verses in no way make the claim of being scientific fact as God sees it. We don’t see God making the claim that the sun sets into murky waters! Or rises on a certain group of people. We simply see God describing things as witnessed by Zul-Qarnain - "They ask thee concerning Zul-Qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story". The sun sets wherever you see it set. If you are on a beach you will see it set into the ocean. If you are on a hill, you will see it set behind the hill.

See also:
http://www.geocities.com/noorullahwe...l-qarnain.html

"Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein, and hath set a barrier between the two seas ? Is there any God beside Allah ? Nay, but most of them know not!"---27:61

As I said before:

Some critics claim that this verse implies that the earth doesn't move, which is truly a laughable claim. The word qaraara refers to the structure of the earth, meaning that the earth is a firm foundation upon which we can travel and construct buildings. As Omar Sarwar notes:

In Surah An-Naml, 27:61, what has been translated as a "fixed abode should be translated as a "stable resting place," as denoted by the Arabic term qarar, in this case for the innumerable inhabitants of the earth. As far as life on earth is concerned, the earth is "fixed" and "stable" enough that life can exist, evolve, flourish, perish, and regenerate on it. The verse goes on to discuss the mountains and the oceans and, therefore, does not seem to warrant a reading from an astronomical perspective at all.

The "fixed" aspect of the earth is the solid crust of the earth.

"And when the stars fall,"---81:2
the only thing i can think of in cosmology where "the stars fall" would be the "big crunch." as of now, it appears that the universe doesn't have enough mass for there to be a big crunch. even if there was, the earth wouldn't be around to see it. the sun would have died long before then.

depending on how you look at it, you could also see the collision of the milkey way with andromeda as the falling of the stars, but the sun, and therefore the earth, will be long gone before that happens.

Since we know that when we look at 'stars' in the horizon, what we see is actually the light emitted from them long ago. Therefore, there are a number of possible scenarios in which an illusion of 'stars falling' could be created on earth. Secondly, since this verse speaks of a phenomenon which has not yet occured and which we don't know how it will occur, and which most likely occurs due to divine intervention, it is immediately beyond the scope of science because we're talking miracles here.

"And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres."---21:33

the sun does not move in a sphere.

The word 'sphere' does not appear in the arabic. The word is 'falak' which simply means orbit or course. It is interesting to note that out of all the translations I checked on this verse, only Shakir and Rodwell (a non-muslim) include the word sphere. None of the other translators use it, but of course anti-islamists are only interested in the one that supports their argument. Objectivity is not on their mind.

"And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?Lo! ye come with lust unto men instead of women. Nay, but ye are wanton folk."---7:80-81

there ARE homosexual animals

I responded to this just last week, saying:

With regard to animals,
1. The only evidence they have brought is what they think are 'homosexual tendencies' temporarily seen in some members of the species
2. Even if we assume this evidence to be correct (which it isn't), this would actually refute their own claim that homosexuality is a trait people are born with and in fact the animals only temporarily show such desires. Consequently, there is no such thing as a 'gay animal' even according to them - just animals who temporarily exhibit such tendencies.
3. Prophet Lut wasn't speaking about animals. 'Alameen (29:28) literally refers human beings and jinn in its restricted sense
4. The phrase is also understood to mean that none surpassed the nation of Lut, or went to the extent that they did in performing such immorality
5. Not only were they homosexuals but they used to publically express their perverted desires

Regards

[Andaraawus]

see what i mean , any oppisition to the Quran is not from an academic stand point

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Organized Chaos,
Let's take this one at a time. Do not simply copy-paste allegations.

also, who was the first muslim?

Do you know what 'Muslim' means? You can use the term in a different sense or in a different context. The linguistic meaning is one who submits to God. So when you ask "who was the first Muslim" you have to clarify what exactly you mean. Are you including all creation or just human beings? Are you speaking about the followers of the Shari'ah of Prophet Muhammad pbuh or just the first human being to submit to God. The word has different connotations.

Also, let me give you a practical example. If a teacher walks into a classroom and asks the students, "Who was the first one here?" in this context they mean to say which of the students was the first to arrive at school today. They are not asking about the construction workers and they are certainly not considering the archaebacteria that dwelt in that location eons ago.

Regards

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Salam
I challenge anyone to prove that the Quran is not the word of God.
It is the word of God,There are numerous examples, but lets have who thinks that the Quran is not the word of God to prove it.

:sl: bro,
Your challenge has remained unanswered for over 1400 years. Don't expect a serious response anytime soon ;)

:w:

[Organized Chaos]

Since we know that when we look at 'stars' in the horizon, what we see is actually the light emitted from them long ago. Therefore, there are a number of possible scenarios in which an illusion of 'stars falling' could be created on earth. Secondly, since this verse speaks of a phenomenon which has not yet occured and which we don't know how it will occur, and which most likely occurs due to divine intervention, it is immediately beyond the scope of science because we're talking miracles here.

what scenarios?
ah, "God did it" again. that's almost as good as the christians who think they can prove the bible with the bible.

With regard to animals,
1. The only evidence they have brought is what they think are 'homosexual tendencies' temporarily seen in some members of the species

there have been dolphins that are homosexual lifemates until they die

2. Even if we assume this evidence to be correct ([Link only for registered members]), this would actually refute their own claim that homosexuality is a trait people are born with and in fact the animals only temporarily show such desires. Consequently, there is no such thing as a 'gay animal' even according to them - just animals who temporarily exhibit such tendencies.

good thing i never claimed homosexuality was genetic. also, 2 was a red herring.

3. Prophet Lut wasn't speaking about animals. 'Alameen (29:28) literally refers human beings and jinn in its restricted sense

i guess i was confused by it saying "creature"

Organized Chaos,
Let's take this one at a time. Do not simply copy-paste allegations.

i did no such thing.

Are you including all creation or just human beings?

how many non-human animals are muslims?

Are you speaking about the followers of the Shari'ah of Prophet Muhammad pbuh or just the first human being to submit to God. The word has different connotations.

look at the context and you tell me.

Also, let me give you a practical example. If a teacher walks into a classroom and asks the students, "Who was the first one here?" in this context they mean to say which of the students was the first to arrive at school today. They are not asking about the construction workers and they are certainly not considering the archaebacteria that dwelt in that location eons ago.

thanx for the strawman.

[Organized Chaos]

i apollogize about the one talking about the spheres. i got that verse from a muslim. he said my translation was wrong, so i had him give me the right one.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

what scenarios?
ah, "God did it" again. that's almost as good as the christians who think they can prove the bible with the bible.

Actually it's not. The day of judgement is something that hasn't happened yet and obviously involves divine intervention. Right from there it's beyond the realm of science.

there have been dolphins that are homosexual lifemates until they die

One thing you need to remember in making allegations - always substantiate your claims with evidence.

good thing i never claimed homosexuality was genetic. also, 2 was a red herring.

No it wasn't. You attempted to disprove the verse by claiming that there were homosexual animals. If animals merely had tendencies then it doesn't refute the verse because Prophet Lut is criticising a nation who practiced homosexuality, not just displaying temporary inclinations.

i guess i was confused by it saying "creature"

The problem is that you pick out only one translation that supports your argument.

i did no such thing.

Typing out a list of allegations is considered the same for all practical purposes. We'll discuss them one at a time.

how many non-human animals are muslims?

Every non-human animal is Muslim; they are all submitted to God.

look at the context and you tell me.

thanx for the strawman.

It wasn't; it was a perfect analogy. In the case you cited, when Moses says that he was the first believer, it does not negate the belief of Abraham pbuh or his children because Moses pbuh is speaking about his immediate time and context. Just like the teacher who is speaking to his class about that day. See also verse 26:52 of the Qur'an, where the magicians said that they wished to be awalul mu'mineen the exact same phrase said by Moses which you have quoted translated as 'the first of believers'. They said this even though Moses and Harun were right in from of them! This proves that the meaning of the phrase is considered in context.

You've fallen silent about the other allegations that I've refuted. Can I take this as an admission of error on your part? EDIT: I see your new post. Thank you for admitting your mistake, as it makes our dialogue much more productive. :)

[Fyllbult]

Salam
I challenge anyone to prove that the Quran is not the word of God.
It is the word of God,There are numerous examples, but lets have who thinks that the Quran is not the word of God to prove it.

I can't and do not seek to do so. nobody really can. You can't prove that it is either. Don't worry, I'm not attacking you or your position, my little friend. Please read on...

The introductory post of this thread is a perfect example of the harm in believing in things. I would like, if I may, to create a distinction.

When somebody asks me if I Believe in God I have to say no. This isn't because I don't have a relationship with God, quite the contrary. You see when you believe in something then you must defend it as Anis did above.

Now I will ask you Do you believe in the chair you are sitting in? Of course you don't believe in it. It's there. You don't have to believe in it because it's there and you are sitting on it. You can even show a blind man that the chair is there. That is my relationship with God. I don't have to believe in God and I don't define God as He or She or It. I do not have to defend my position because whatever it is or isn't, it is not formed by judgements. I just accept that God is here because God is here.

Now then, Anis, and anyone else interested, you see you can have a relationship with God and God's word by knowing it rather than believing in it. It is a deeper and far more satisfying relationship. it creates a space where more conversation can be had about it than whether or not somebody is right or wrong. It doesn't have to be defended. The conversations that erupt within that space are nurturing, sharing and teaching to those who are willing to be taught. Not defending, arguing, and making others wrong in order to be right.

I will add that this message applies to many parts if not all of life.

Many wars have been fought by people defending what they believe in.

Peace

[ishkabab]

I can't and do not seek to do so. nobody really can. You can't prove that it is either. Don't worry, I'm not attacking you or your position, my little friend. Please read on...

The introductory post of this thread is a perfect example of the harm in believing in things. I would like, if I may, to create a distinction.

When somebody asks me if I Believe in God I have to say no. This isn't because I don't have a relationship with God, quite the contrary. You see when you believe in something then you must defend it as Anis did above.

Now I will ask you Do you believe in the chair you are sitting in? Of course you don't believe in it. It's there. You don't have to believe in it because it's there and you are sitting on it. You can even show a blind man that the chair is there. That is my relationship with God. I don't have to believe in God and I don't define God as He or She or It. I do not have to defend my position because whatever it is or isn't, it is not formed by judgements. I just accept that God is here because God is here.

Now then, Anis, and anyone else interested, you see you can have a relationship with God and God's word by knowing it rather than believing in it. It is a deeper and far more satisfying relationship. it creates a space where more conversation can be had about it than whether or not somebody is right or wrong. It doesn't have to be defended. The conversations that erupt within that space are nurturing, sharing and teaching to those who are willing to be taught. Not defending, arguing, and making others wrong in order to be right.

I will add that this message applies to many parts if not all of life.

Many wars have been fought by people defending what they believe in.

Peace

tell me do u believe in SOULS?

[Fyllbult]

I know that we are spiritual and the spiritual part of us is called the soul. Yes.

[Organized Chaos]

Actually it's not. The day of judgement is something that hasn't happened yet and obviously involves divine intervention. Right from there it's beyond the realm of science.

everything that is real belongs in the realm of science

One thing you need to remember in making allegations - always substantiate your claims with evidence.

not hard...http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrig...arine-gay.html

No it wasn't. You attempted to disprove the verse by claiming that there were homosexual animals. If animals merely had tendencies then it doesn't refute the verse because Prophet Lut is criticising a nation who practiced homosexuality, not just displaying temporary inclinations.

so, if a man is homosexual for 5 years and then stops, they were just tendancies? you haven't defined a distinction.

The problem is that you pick out only one translation that supports your argument.

actually, i got that translation from a muslim. please feel free to give another.

Every non-human animal is Muslim; they are all submitted to God.

you said it yourself...where's the evidence?

You've fallen silent about the other allegations that I've refuted. Can I take this as an admission of error on your part? EDIT: I see your new post. Thank you for admitting your mistake, as it makes our dialogue much more productive. :)

i'm sorry, i do not have a qur'an at my disposal right now. i am not at my house. i will respond to those later.

[Fyllbult]

^^^^
See?

Must be defended.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

hello Fyllbult,

I can't and do not seek to do so. nobody really can. You can't prove that it is either.

Certainly we can prove that something cannot be from God, through careful analysis of the material being discussed. One needs to only find something in the work that contradicts the concept of God which is being referred to. For example, if we are discussing the Bible, I would have trouble attributing portions of Ezekiel 23 to God. But of course that's the topic of another thread.

As for the remainder of your post, I think you may find it more relevant in the following thread :)
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tence-god.html

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Organized Chaos,

everything that is real belongs in the realm of science

In which case you would have to re-define science.

Let me explain this to you in a clearer fashion. If we consider science to be the systematic intellectual study of the universe through observation and experiment then we have to consider that we neither know God's potential nor do we know how He will choose to bring things about on the Day of Judgement. How can we analyze the two?

If God created the laws of science which govern the universe, then He has the capability to suspend such laws - this is what we call a miracle. A miracle is defined as an event inexplicable by or contradictory to the laws of science. You cannot argue that a miracle does not exist by definition.

Besides, I gave you a conceivable explanation - there are a number of ways in which God could cause the illusion of stars falling from an earthly perspective.

not hard...http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrig...arine-gay.html

Thanks for the link, but you will note that already I covered Bagemihl's work in my very first post in this thread. To quote from the link I gave:

Even biologist Bruce Bagemihl, whose book Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity was cited by the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association in their amici curiae brief in Lawrence v. Texas and is touted as proof that homosexuality is natural among animals, is careful to include a caveat:

Any account of homosexuality and transgender animals is also necessarily an account of human interpretations of these phenomena....We are in the dark about the internal experience of the animal participants: as a result, the biases and limitations of the human observer--in both the gathering and interpretation of data--come to the forefront in this situation.....With people we can often speak directly to individuals (or read written accounts)....With animals in contrast, we can often directly observe their sexual (and allied) behaviors, but can only infer or interpret their meanings and motivations."[15]

Dr. Bagemihl's interpretation, however, throughout his 750-page book unabashedly favors the animal homosexuality theory. Its pages are filled with descriptions of animal acts that would have a homosexual connotation in human beings. Dr. Bagemihl does not prove, however, that these acts have the same meaning for animals. He simply gives them a homosexual interpretation. Not surprisingly, his book was published by Stonewall Inn Editions, "an imprint of St. Martin's Press devoted to gay and lesbian interest books."

...Dr. Bagemihl's Biological Exuberance research displays his fundamental dissatisfaction with science and enthusiasm for aboriginal mythology:

Western science has a lot to learn from aboriginal cultures about systems of gender and sexuality...[21]
To Western science, homosexuality (both animal and human) is an anomaly, an unexpected behavior that above all requires some sort of "explanation" or "cause" or "rationale." In contrast, to many indigenous cultures around the world, homosexuality and transgender are a routine and expected occurrence in both the human and animal worlds...[22]

Most Native American tribes formally recognize--and honor--human homosexuality and transgender in the role of the 'two-spirit' person (sometimes formerly known as berdache). The 'two-spirit' is a sacred man or woman who mixes gender categories by wearing clothes of opposite or both sexes .... And often engaging in same -sex relations. ... In many Native American cultures, certain animals are also symbolically associated with two-spiritedness, often in the form of creation myths and origin legends relating to the first or "supernatural" two-spirit(s)....A Zuni creation story relates how the first two spirits--creatures that were neither male nor female, yet both at the same time--were the twelve offspring of a mythical brother-sister pair. Some of these creatures were human, but one was a bat and another an old buck Deer.[23]

Dr. Bagemihl applies this androgynous myth, so widespread in today's homosexual movement, to the animal kingdom with the help of Indian and aboriginal mythology. He invites the West to embrace "a new paradigm:"[24]

Ultimately, the synthesis of scientific views represented by Biological Exuberance brings us full circle--back to the way of looking at the world that is in accordance with some of the most ancient indigenous conceptions of animal (and human) sexual and gender variability. This perspective dissolves binary oppositions....Biological Exuberance is...a worldview that is at once primordial and futuristic, in which gender is kaleidoscopic, sexualities are multiple, and the categories of male and female are fluid and transmutable.[25]

[15] Bagemihl, p. 2. (Our emphasis.)

[21] Bagemihl, p. 5.

[22] Ibid., p. 215.

[23] Ibid., p. 216.

[24] "The final chapter of part 1, 'A New Paradigm: Biological Exuberance,' calls for a radical rethinking of the way we view the natural world. This revisioning begins with an exploration of another, alternative set of human interpretations: traditional beliefs about animal homosexuality/transgender in indigenous cultures." Ibid., p. 5.

[25] Ibid., p. 262.

Besides, you initially mentioned 'lifemates' yet there was nothing Bagemihl's work to indicate exclusive relationships amongst same-sex animals. It is, at best, temporary inclinations as I pointed out.

so, if a man is homosexual for 5 years and then stops, they were just tendancies?

If that is the case then obviously he cannot identify himself as a homosexual but must admit that for a limited time period he felt such urges.

actually, i got that translation from a muslim.

Not a criterion for validity.

please feel free to give another.

I already explained the relevant word - 'alameen.

you said it yourself...where's the evidence?

I'm not sure what kind of evidence you want. Are you speaking of linguistic evidence that 'Muslim' means such a thing, in which case you can consult any arabic dictionary. Obviously, if animals are in the servitude of God, they are all considered Muslims. This is the Islamic belief.

Regards

[Hisbul_Aziz]

The meaning of the word muslim means in Arabic literally, one who surrenders (to God)
(if no one said that yet)

And the prophet salalahu3lahi wasalam

A muslim is sincear he loves allah (surrender himself)

[Bertsura]

So in this logic, since people can't prove that the Qur'an isn't the word of God, then the Qur'an is the word of God? It does not follow. It's like saying invisible pink unicorns exist because no one can prove otherwise.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

So in this logic, since people can't prove that the Qur'an isn't the word of God, then the Qur'an is the word of God?

No, it does not say such a thing in this thread at all. This thread has a companion thread, btw:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-word-god.html

;)

[Deus]

contradictions and errors in the Quran, Here are some examples I am aware of

Sun-set and Sun-rise

The Quran teaches us that the Sun sets in a muddy spring:

· Quran-18:86: Till, when he (the traveler Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring…

· Quran- 18:90: Till, when he reached the rising-place of the Sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter from it.

There are serious scientific errors here. Firstly, it is a scientifically accepted fact that the Sun never goes down into a muddy spring. Secondly, this seems to presuppose a FLAT Earth, otherwise how can there be an extreme point in the West or in the East? A sunrise there would be basically just the same as at any other place on this earth, at land or sea. It would still look as if it is setting “far away.” It does say, that he reached THE PLACE where the Sun sets and in his second journey THE PLACE where it rises.

How many days did it take to create the Heavens and the Earth?

· Quran-7:54: Your guardian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

· Quran-10:3: Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

· Quran- 11:7: He it is Who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

· Quran-25:29: He Who created the heavens and earth and all that is between, in Six Days

The above verses clearly state that Allah ( God) created the heavens and the Earth in 6 days. But the verses below state

· Quran-41:9 : Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?

· Quran- 41:10: He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…

· Quran-41:12: So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …

Now do the math: 2 (for earth) + 4 (for nourishment) + 2 (for heavens) = 8 days; and not 6 days.

A Resting Place for the Sun?

· Quran-36:38: And the Sun runneth on unto a resting place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

· Quran-36:39: And for the moon, We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shriveled palm leaf.

· Quran-36:40: It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

lots of problems with these verses

ky/Heaven is Nothing but A ROOF or Canopy over the Earth:

· Quran-21: 32: And We have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.

· Quran-31:10: He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm Mountains/Hills, so that it quake not with you; and He hath dispersed…

· Quran-21: 32: And We have made the sky ( heavens ) as roof (canopy) well guarded…

· Quran-2: 22: Who has made the earth your couch, And the heavens (Sky) your canopy

There are no pillars holding up the sky, the sky is not a roof

Sun and Moon Rotates:

· Quran-31: 29: Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day and He merges Day into Night; That He has subjected the Sun and moon (to His law), each running its course for a term (time) appointed.

· Quran-21: 33: It is He who created the Night and Day, And the Sun and Moon; each of them swim (float) along in its own course.

We know that the sun's movement doesnt cause night and day it is in fact that earth's rotation that causes night and day

Earth is Spread Out Like a Carpet (Flat)

· Quran-15:19: And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable;

· Quran-78: 6-7: Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs (anchor)?

IT says the Earth is flat like a carpet and that mountains are there to anchor the earth so that the Earth does not shake with us??????? another problem

Quran-75:38: Then he becomes a CLOT; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned…

· Quran-96:2: Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood

This is essentially "borrowed from the ancient greeks, In fact the foetus or zygote at conception is not at all made of blood

Which one is correct?

· Quran-2:256: There is no Compulsion in religion….

OR

· Quran-9:29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.

This is anothr major problem which one do moslems turn to?

This is besides all the obvious issues with inheritance law and death to apostates and all that other stuff,

I wish people would respond to my post on Islamic Economics, I am keen on opening a dialgue on economics, this is the link to that post

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...ghlight=policy

[i_m_tipu]

Peace

I m in office
so it difficult for me to ans u in time.. but i m tring

Qur’an -41:9: Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
Qur’an- 41:10: He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed
blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due
Proportion, in FOUR DAYS…

"four Days" in verse 10 to include the two Days in verse 9, so that the total for the universe comes to six Days. This is reasonable, because the processes described in verses 9 and 10 form really one series. In one case it is the creation of the formless matter of the earth; in the other case it is the gradual evolution of the from of the earth, its mountains and seas, and its animal and vegetable life, with the "nourishment in due proportion", proper to each.

"in four Days" - In completion of four days as one says: I walked from Basra to Baghdad in ten days and to Kufa in fifteen days meaning in completion of fifteen days.

U Can Question: what is the reason for saying "in four Days"? Imam Az-Zamakhshari answers as follows:

If you say: Wouldn't it be better said: 'in two days'? And what is the benefit of this conclusion? I say: If He says in four days after He have said that earth was created in two days, it is acknowledged that things in it were created in two days. So, the choice between saying in two days and saying in four days becomes equal. But (saying) in four days has a benefit over (saying) in two days; it is the indication that they were exactly four complete days no more and no less. If He said: in two days, while (the term) two days can be given to most of the two days, it would be possible that He meant by the first and the last two days the most of them.

And only God knows best.

[Deus]

perhaps the whole created the heaven and the earth and so on in so many days comes down to the logic of semantics, I have to say I don't understand you very well, what about all the other verses,
Also we should all know that the earth was not made in 4 or 6 days, but a process of approximately 700 million years.

[i_m_tipu]

Proclaim!
In the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, who created -
created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood.
-- Sura 96:1-2

It is he who has created man from water
-- Sura 25:54

And God has created every living creature from water.
-- Sura 24:45

We created man from sounding clay,
from mud moulded into shape.
-- Sura 15:26

Amongst his signs is this,
that he created you from dust.
-- Sura 30:20

Blood clot? water? clay? dust? The Qur'an doesn't really seem all that sure what God used and seems to imply that He took just anything he could get his hands on. But this is still not all in this confusion:

God createth what He willeth:
When he hath decreed a plan,
He but saith to it, "Be," and it is!
-- Sura 3:47

He just says the word "be" and it is, there is no making a mess with water, clay, blood clots or dust, just a clean "there it is". Right?

Sura 4:82 claims that there is no discrepancy in this Qur'an!

Do Allaah ever say I created man from only------ this?

Prove me wrong now
I made a cake.
I made a cake from flour.
I made a cake from sugar.
I made a cake from eggs.
I made a cake from water.

Do you think I just "took anything I could get my hands on" to make my cake? (I think leaving out any of those ingredients would no longer render it a cake) Do any of my statements contradict each other? So just like I know what my cake is made from, so does the Qur'an know what man was made from.

Was there a discrepancy in my making of a cake? If not, then where is the discrepancy in the Qur'an's testimony of what a man is made from?

And what do you know...

Surah 40:67
"He it is who created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop, then from a leech-like clot, then brings you forth as a child ..."

Surah 23:12-14
"Verily We created man from a product of wet earth, then placed him as a drop of seed in a safe lodging, then We fashioned the drop a clot, and of the clot We fashioned bones, and We clothed the bones with flesh. Then We produced it as another creation."

Now, back to the top of the page, we see 96:1-2 as a stage. We see the ingredients of water, dust, sounding clay and mud in the other verses can be resolved with elementary set theory.

And one more thing, does the fact that God can create at will by saying "`Be` and it is" mean he can not form man however he wishes. God is the owner of all. He can do whatever He wants.

Saying "I made a cake from water" does not imply that there are anymore or any less ingredients. If my initial response (or any response) seems so general, does that render my explanation wrong?

i m Researching and beleive me it is extremely helpfull to me
Thank u for putting this kind of thread

it does not matter what u think or thought
i know one thing true is true and lie is lie

peace

[i_m_tipu]

ky/Heaven is Nothing but A ROOF or Canopy over the Earth:

· Quran-21: 32: And We have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.

· Quran-31:10: He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm Mountains/Hills, so that it quake not with you; and He hath dispersed…

· Quran-21: 32: And We have made the sky ( heavens ) as roof (canopy) well guarded…

· Quran-2: 22: Who has made the earth your couch, And the heavens (Sky) your canopy

There are no pillars holding up the sky, the sky is not a roof

U says:
There are no pillars holding up the sky
Qur'an says:
Quran-31:10: He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) i don't find any problem if u still find problem go to doctor than.

U says:
the sky is not a roof
it seem that either u or ur leader discover the whole universe in order to make such statement.
Scientist has discover a very tiny part of the universe
can any Scientist pove without doubt about the Roof that the Qur'an talking about.

let u know that human knowledge is very very tiny compare to GOD knowledge

peace

[HeiGou]

U says:
There are no pillars holding up the sky
Qur'an says:
Quran-31:10: He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) i don't find any problem if u still find problem go to doctor than.

U says:
the sky is not a roof
it seem that either u or ur leader discover the whole universe in order to make such statement.
Scientist has discover a very tiny part of the universe
can any Scientist pove without doubt about the Roof that the Qur'an talking about.

let u know that human knowledge is very very tiny compare to GOD knowledge

peace

For the record, I do not think I posted the article you are replying to. Nor can I find a copy of it with my name on it. Please do not foist opinions on me I do not, or may not, hold.

No doubt scientists have discovered a tiny part of the Universe. But Muslim non-scientists have discovered nothing scientific about the Universe at all. You may state that human knowledge is tiny compared to God's knowledge, but how do you know? Have you talked to Him?

[hidaayah]

You may state that human knowledge is tiny compared to God's knowledge, but how do you know? Have you talked to Him?

Muhammad (s) told us and the Quran says that..and the one who created everything surely knows everything..!!

[irsha]

Muhammad (s) told us and the Quran says that..and the one who created everything surely knows everything..!!

circular argument- you believe the koran is the word of god because the koran told you so

[hidaayah]

:sl:
Is the Quran Gods word.? by Zakir Naik..
http://www.irf.net/is_quran_gods_word_I.doc
http://www.irf.net/is_quran_gods_word_II.doc

[i_m_tipu]

sorry HeiGou that was an accident i correct the Quote title

see man can do mistake GOD can't

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

contradictions and errors in the Quran, Here are some examples I am aware of

Before you start with your list, you may want to read the 50 odd refuations I have written on this subject available here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...contradictions

Most of what you've mentioned has already been answered.

Sun-set and Sun-rise

Answered at the beginning of this very thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/174248-post7.html
More links:
http://www.understanding-islam.com/r...66&sscatid=210
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...EAskTheScholar
http://www.geocities.com/noorullahwe...l-qarnain.html
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE
http://faithfreedom.com/anti_islamic...ulqarnain.html
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archi...-al-kahf-1886/

How many days did it take to create the Heavens and the Earth?

http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal..._the_Universe/

A Resting Place for the Sun?

http://islamanswers.net/science/Quran.htm [towards the end - search "36:38"]
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/w...p?articleid=98 [interpretation as solar apex]

Heaven is Nothing but A ROOF or Canopy over the Earth:

http://-----------------------/scientific_20.html

Sun and Moon Rotates:

They do.

We know that the sun's movement doesnt cause night and day it is in fact that earth's rotation that causes night and day

Can you highlight the part that says the sun's movement causes night and day?

Earth is Spread Out Like a Carpet (Flat)

IT says the Earth is flat like a carpet and that mountains are there to anchor the earth so that the Earth does not shake with us??????? another problem

As for the earth as a carpet, I have a very in-depth analysis of these verses by Shaykh M. Mohar Ali - if you want to discuss these verses further, let me know and I'll post them. As for the 'mountains as pegs' aspect, maybe you should take your argument to Dr. Zaghloul An-Najjar, PhD from Wales University in geology, Member of the Geological Society of London, the Geological Society of Egypt and the American Association of Petroleum Geologists, Tulsa, Oklahoma. Fellow of the Institute of Petroleum, London. Dr. An-Najjar's explanation is found here:
http://www.islamonline.net/English/S...e13-a.shtml#22

Quran-75:38: Then he becomes a CLOT; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned…

· Quran-96:2: Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood

This is essentially "borrowed from the ancient greeks, In fact the foetus or zygote at conception is not at all made of blood

http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/PlagiarismGreek/

· Quran-2:256: There is no Compulsion in religion….

OR

· Quran-9:29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.

The following article of mine explains all such verses in context:
http://www.load-islam.com/c/rebuttals/Misquoted

Peace.

[katonna]

Not to get off the subject, but how do you feel about buddhist? Could you ever worship with one?

[Mohsin]

Not to get off the subject, but how do you feel about buddhist? Could you ever worship with one?

Sorry what do you mean

[------]

The Koran and the Bible are soooo totally different only one could have come from God.

Actually if you see the ORIGINAL Bible, you can notice some similarities in between the Bible and the Qur'an. :)

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Nicola :) ,

The Koran and the Bible are soooo totally different only one could have come from God.

Of course there are some major differences between the Bible and the Qur'an, but the essential message of the prophets as recorded in the Bible is very similar to that described in the Qur'an. For more information, you might find the following a very interesting read:
The First and Final Commandment by Dr. Laurence Brown MD.

Hello j4763 :) ,

Nether did, they both came from man’s mind.

Well this thread is all about proof, so why not back up what you say with some concrete evidence? We'll see if you can do that.

Regards

[j4763]

Hello Nicola :) ,

Of course there are some major differences between the Bible and the Qur'an, but the essential message of the prophets as recorded in the Bible is very similar to that described in the Qur'an. For more information, you might find the following a very interesting read:
The First and Final Commandment by Dr. Laurence Brown MD.

Hello j4763 :) ,

Well this thread is all about proof, so why not back up what you say with some concrete evidence? We'll see if you can do that.

Regards

Well they were both written by man, not god. Maybe some beleave its gods words but never the less man wrote them. There is also no "concrete evidence" that it is gods words.

If i could go back in time a plant a "script" somewhere in a cave, say a peterpan book, i'm sure we would have a load of people beleaving that neverland is a real place today.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Well they were both written by man, not god. Maybe some beleave its gods words but never the less man wrote them.

Instead of posting the evidence that I asked for, you instead simply repeated your claim. I'll take this as an admission that you are unable to substantiate your allegations in this regard.

There is also no "concrete evidence" that it is gods words.

This thread is for discussing alleged evidence against the Qur'an's divine authorship. For a discussion of evidence for the Qur'an's divine authorship, please see the companion thread to this discussion:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-word-god.html

Regards

[j4763]

Instead of posting the evidence that I asked for, you instead simply repeated your claim. I'll take this as an admission that you are unable to substantiate your allegations in this regard.


This thread is for discussing alleged evidence against the Qur'an's divine authorship. For a discussion of evidence for the Qur'an's divine authorship, please see the companion thread to this discussion:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-word-god.html

Regards

Simple fact is you cant prove its not. Just like you cant prove fairys dont exist, imo its a stupid thread, one cant prove something that one beleaves dosn't exist.
And shouldn't have to its up to the beleaver to show his evidence that the quran was the word of god, but they to cant provide evidence.

[Cheb]

Just like to point out that the Quran is not meant to be a scientific book. Otherwise dark matter may actually have been mentioned.
I have a very smart firend mashallah that has a theory in which dark matter is actually the realm of the Jinn. Honestly it is the best explanation I have heard so far. Of course if you want more detail you will have to ask him ;). He explained it in a much clearer way.

[Nicola]

Hello Nicola :) ,

Of course there are some major differences between the Bible and the Qur'an, but the essential message of the prophets as recorded in the Bible is very similar to that described in the Qur'an. For more information, you might find the following a very interesting read:
The First and Final Commandment by Dr. Laurence Brown MD.

Regards

Hiya
Thanks for the link

One of the problems I've have ...is I know the Koran mentions some of the prophets of the Bible but that is about all it does mention...From what I also understand, it doesn't mention Deborah the very famous judge,prophess and miliarty leader?

Does it mention the prophecies of world events...for the future from these prophets...or just mentions their history and names?...

Because that is quite a different things...from just mentioning their names.

Like it doesn't even mention Daniel in the Koran...one of the greatest prophets God ever gave us..it mentions nothing of what God told him to tell us about the endtimes that we live in now...even Jesus mentions Daniel and his prophecies concerning the end times and tells us they are true.

Another thing is...The Jewish prophets and their history was a known fact ...it wasn't a new revalation given to Mohammed.. people already knew about them...
Prophets usually tells us of things to come..not what as already been.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello j4763

Simple fact is you cant prove its not. Just like you cant prove fairys dont exist, imo its a stupid thread, one cant prove something that one beleaves dosn't exist.

Then don't post in this thread and don't make stupid claims if you aren't capable of backing them up with evidence.

And shouldn't have to its up to the beleaver to show his evidence that the quran was the word of god, but they to cant provide evidence.

Is english not your native language? I told you that evidence for the Qur'an's divine authorship was discussed in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-word-god.html

Hello Nicola

One of the problems I've have ...is I know the Koran mentions some of the prophets of the Bible but that is about all it does mention...From what I also understand, it doesn't mention Deborah the very famous judge,prophess and miliarty leader?

No the Qur'an only mentions 25/124 000 prophets. And those 25 that it mentions are not all mentioned in the Bible. There is no Prophet Hud in the Bible, nor is there a Prophet Saalih in the Bible, nor is Khidr in the Bible. The Qur'an is not interested in retelling history, that is not its purpose. Its purpose is to guide human beings. This is very different from the Bible which seems to be very interested in recounting history, and seems very difficult to attribute some of its tales to God (see the language used in Ezekiel 23).

Does it mention the prophecies of world events..

Yes, you can read about them in the link I gave you before.

or just mentions their history and names?...

The Qur'an is not a history book. It, unlike the Bible, does not list pages of names. It is a book of guidance, and consequently, everytime a Prophet is mentioned they are mentioned for a reason, and their story is mentioned to learn a lesson from.

Like it doesn't even mention Daniel in the Koran...one of the greatest prophets God ever gave us

God has given us many great Prophets; but simply retelling history is of little benefit.

Another thing is...The Jewish prophets and their history was a known fact ...it wasn't a new revalation given to Mohammed.. people already knew about them...

Yet all of the stories concerning the Prophets were revealed to Prophet Muhammad pbuh when he lived amongst the pagans in Makkah, before he travelled to Madinah where there were Jewish tribes. In Makkah, there were no Jewish tribes that could have informed him about this. Moreover, many other stories in the Qur'an are not mentioned in the Bible at all, like that of Hud, Saalih, Khidr, Luqman, etc.

Prophets usually tells us of things to come..not what as already been.

See the book I linked you to.

Regards

[Nicola]

Quote:
Like it doesn't even mention Daniel in the Koran...one of the greatest prophets God ever gave us

God has given us many great Prophets; but simply retelling history is of little benefit.

It isn't the retelling of history that I'm thinking of...
I'm thinking more of what was foretold to them by God and why should this be so different from the Korans?

What Daniel and Zacariaha propheise about for instance..concerning what is going to happen at the end... is a very different ending to the one that Mohammads messenger brought us.


btw... When I am speaking about Zacariaha I am meaning the prophet from the OT not Zacariaha (John the Baptists father) from the NT.

I've added the link you gave me into my favs..
and will be back with questions..when I have some...
if thats ok :)

[snakelegs]

this is silly. how can one prove or disprove? it is strictly a matter of belief.
obviously for the however-many muslims in the world it is the word of god.
this should be enough.

[anis_z24]

Salam
actually it is proved.
why is it silly. can you explain what you mean by "obviously for the however-many muslims in the world it is the word of god.
this should be enough".

[Knut Hamsun]

actually it is proved

It is NOT proven. All the arguments I have seen are ridiculous. It is based on faith alone.

[------]

What's ur point?

[snakelegs]

Salam
actually it is proved.
why is it silly. can you explain what you mean by "obviously for the however-many muslims in the world it is the word of god.
this should be enough".

you can not objectively prove or disprove religious belief sytems like you prove things scientifically. so the very concept of proving that the quran is or is not the word of god is just plain silly.
i just meant that it is the word of god for the world's muslims and they don't need proof.

[------]

**edited**

[anis_z24]

It is NOT proven. All the arguments I have seen are ridiculous. It is based on faith alone.

Salam
true it is based on faith. but God has put signs that we may reflect upon(and to strengthen our faith);

[------]

Salam
true it is based on faith. but God has put signs that we may reflect upon(and to strengthen our faith);

Agreed. :thumbs_up

[Nicola]

Salam
true it is based on faith. but God has put signs that we may reflect upon(and to strengthen our faith);

Yes God does give us signs...and this builds our faith up even stronger. It is God who gives our faith to us.
But also Satan gives us signs ..because Satan is the father of liars...he mixes truths with lies...his aim is to lead has many of us away from the true path as possible away from God...so we must test these signs firstly to see where they are coming from... we shouldn't just take everything with blind faith.

[HeiGou]

true it is based on faith. but God has put signs that we may reflect upon(and to strengthen our faith);

Agreed. :thumbs_up

Wow. So do I.

[waji]

Asalam u Alikum

The biggest sign is this that u find the same Quran which was given to Prophet Muhamad (S.A.W) and u can find right now also as there are three Qurans of Hazarat Usman (R.A.T) period of Khilafat and there had been the C4 test confirming it as 1400 years old and if u find the todays Quran u will not find any change in the Book
why some one argue when he doesn't have enough knowledge about the Quran and what is it in

May Allah Guide us All to the Right Path
Which is Islam
Walikum as Salam

[HeiGou]

The biggest sign is this that u find the same Quran which was given to Prophet Muhamad (S.A.W) and u can find right now also as there are three Qurans of Hazarat Usman (R.A.T) period of Khilafat and there had been the C4 test confirming it as 1400 years old and if u find the todays Quran u will not find any change in the Book

Where has anyone been allowed to do C4 tests, or any sort of destructive dating, on any of the surviving Qurans that allegedly date back from the time of the Rashidun?

You know that they are usually written in scripts that were said to be invented after the Rashidun?

[irsha]

Asalam u Alikum

The biggest sign is this that u find the same Quran which was given to Prophet Muhamad (S.A.W) and u can find right now also as there are three Qurans of Hazarat Usman (R.A.T) period of Khilafat and there had been the C4 test confirming it as 1400 years old and if u find the todays Quran u will not find any change in the Book
why some one argue when he doesn't have enough knowledge about the Quran and what is it in

May Allah Guide us All to the Right Path
Which is Islam
Walikum as Salam

Please provide the source of this information, I would believe it if it is verified by recognised scientific sources from in and outside of the Islamic fraternity

[waji]

Asalam u Alikum
well C4 is carbon 4 a method of finding the half life of the any atom
i know C4 is a kind of bomb but c4 or may be i am mistaking it is c14 but it is a kind test they do to find out the age of materials
the one Quran is in the london meusum
second is in the Masjid of Turkey
and other one is in the some central asian country i don't remember which country it was as they name a bit same

Walikum as Salam

[HeiGou]

well C4 is carbon 4 a method of finding the half life of the any atom
i know C4 is a kind of bomb but c4 or may be i am mistaking it is c14 but it is a kind test they do to find out the age of materials

I think you are mistaking it for Carbon-14 dating.

the one Quran is in the london meusum
second is in the Masjid of Turkey
and other one is in the some central asian country i don't remember which country it was as they name a bit same

These are fragments as opposed to entire Qurans and the Central Asian one used to be in Saint Petersburg but now is in Tashkent (I think) which is in Uzbekistan.

Yep, just googled it, it is in Tashkent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/4581684.stm

I don't like to post websites that the Moderators find objectionable, on the other hand it is sometimes hard for me to work out what is likely to offend. I think this one is acceptable but if it is not, I apologise is advance

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

[------]

I don't like to post websites that the Moderators find objectionable, on the other hand it is sometimes hard for me to work out what is likely to offend. I think this one is acceptable but if it is not, I apologise is advance

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

Why do it then :rollseyes

[HeiGou]

Why do it then :rollseyes

I am a kind and generous soul who likes to help and inform if possible.

Can't you tell?

[------]

I am a kind and generous soul who likes to help and inform if possible.

Can't you tell?

Do I really need to answer this? If Yes, then No I cannot tell as you inform wrong.

[HeiGou]

Do I really need to answer this? If Yes, then No I cannot tell as you inform wrong.

No you do not need to answer this. I am sorry you cannot tell, but where have I informed incorrectly? (You need to form a correct adverb by at least saying "you inform wrongly" but as that would be ugly and probably wrong, you should say "you inform incorrectly" - you see, I can't help myself!)

[------]

No you do not need to answer this. I am sorry you cannot tell, but where have I informed incorrectly? (You need to form a correct adverb by at least saying "you inform wrongly" but as that would be ugly and probably wrong, you should say "you inform incorrectly" - you see, I can't help myself!)

Yes I know u cannot help urself because u have nothing better to do! :rollseyes

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Details about the Qur'anic preservation can be continued in another thread. Let us reserve this thread for objections towards the Qur'an's divine authorship.

Regards

[irsha]

I think that dating of the Koran is critical, if the Koran was not written at the time it was supposed to be, then how can it be right? I would like to see those reports I asked about? By the way, I know all about C14, there are lots of other dating methods as well.

[sargon]

:sl:
I have questions of it's divinity, why are there so many passages about hewish people? I'm startin to kinda subconsciouly dislike jewish people. If I hear jewish or zionist I think of conspiracies and the crusades.

It's like to be Muslim you haveto believe that since the Crusades Jewish people have been building societies against Islam along with the FreeMason devil worshippers. That's why the Islamic Golden Era ended.

Now if that's not true than what's the reason for the fall of Islamic Golden Era? I can only think of conspiracies formed by jews and freemasons. Now thats racist, sorry, I meant Zionist. But in the Quran it goes on and on about jews and I fell into these zionist conspiracies (which actually fit into the whole scheme)

So I guess I'm asking is Allah talking about the Zionist in the Quran or was Mohammed just angry at the Jews around him? I hate to say this because I'm muslim but it sounds like Mohammed wrote it because of the way it's directed at certain groups... like if I was writing a book like that I would say stuff like don't be like them, because they're goin to hell.

But then I wouldn't know about those scientific miracle quotes so I guess Allah is pretty realistic but sometimes I have doubts of it's divinity.

What I'm starting to think is that Mohammed tapped into something and was divinely inspired with his behaviour but not everything was divine... which would make me kaffir, which is scary cuz I really dont wanna be in hell! But I have to submit sincerely so unless I'm sincere I wont do it.

My proof for it not being divine would be the use of so much fear, fear controls people better than anything else. Of course that argument is not really anything, but think about it... why should we be so afraid all the time? Shouldn't we love God not fear him? Thats why people flip out when people slander the prophet. If we all loved God instead of feared him we'd teach those ignorant people instead of flip out and try to murder them.

Now you might say we cant judge Islam by the actions of a few, but it's our job because if they claim to be Muslim then it's our responsibility as well. Just like American soldiers in Iraq that mess up, America has to do something. We gotta do something too for the brothers that are flippin out.

So please tell me why Allah has to scare the living stuffings out of everyone? Why can't we just love him instead? It seems that the main message is fear, not love. Which is a problem for me, but that doesn't refute it's divine authorship actually, just clarifies my personal issue.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

:sl:
I have questions of it's divinity, why are there so many passages about hewish people? I'm startin to kinda subconsciouly dislike jewish people.

I'm wondering how much you have read of the Qur'an. The Qur'an only speaks of Jewish people when it relates the stories of the Children of Israel, and it emphasizes that not all the children of israel were rebellious, there were many who were righteous as well. Please see:
http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cf...sub_cat_id=497

Brother, I strongly suggest that you bring specific verses to back up your claims since right now you are making allegations against the Qur'an without any evidence.

The Qur'an teaches Muslims to worship God upon three principles - love, hope for His reward, and fear of His punishment.

Irsha,

I think that dating of the Koran is critical, if the Koran was not written at the time it was supposed to be, then how can it be right?

The preservation of the Qur'an is well-established, and you can read the evidence in detail in this work:
http://onlineislamicstore.com/b7626.html
Also see:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

Regards

[Nicola]

:sl:
I have questions of it's divinity, why are there so many passages about hewish people? I'm startin to kinda subconsciouly dislike jewish people. If I hear jewish or zionist I think of conspiracies and the crusades.
lopskdplwo
It's like to be Muslim you haveto believe that since the Crusades Jewish people have been building societies against Islam along with the FreeMason devil worshippers. That's why the Islamic Golden Era ended.

God tells us he wants us to all love one another.

Now if that's not true than what's the reason for the fall of Islamic Golden Era? I can only think of conspiracies formed by jews and freemasons. Now thats racist, sorry, I meant Zionist. But in the Quran it goes on and on about jews and I fell into these zionist conspiracies (which actually fit into the whole scheme)

How does it go on and on about the Jews?
The Islamic Golden Era is going to return again.

So I guess I'm asking is Allah talking about the Zionist in the Quran or was Mohammed just angry at the Jews around him? I hate to say th is because I'm muslim but it sounds like Mohammed wrote it because of the way it's directed at certain groups... like if I was writing a book like that I would say stuff like don't be like them, because they're goin to hell.

All I can say is in the Bible it is a entirley different ending than the Korans ending...though God was very angry with the Jews...He does forgive them, and they will know what they did wrong. Off the top of my head, Ruth, Isaish, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Zachariah the Prophet (not John the Baptists father) and Revelation all have God restoring Israel where he will dwell. He will bring all 12 tribes back home..a massive attack 10 nations from the North will give their power and authority to the beast... fighting against Israel from there on God will defend the Jews and Jesus will return.

My proof for it not being divine would be the use of so much fear, fear controls people better than anything else. Of course that argument is not really anything, but think about it... why should we be so afraid all the time?

Jesus said "don't fear those who can kill only the body; fear Him (i.e., God) who can destroy both body and soul in hell." Then is God cruel? tyrannical? On the contrary, Jesus adds immediately, "Two sparrows are sold for a penny. Yet God sees them and cares for them. How much more does God care for you. Why, God cares so much for you that even the hairs of your head are numbered."

Psa 112:1 Praise the LORD! Blessed is the man who fears the LORD, who greatly delights in his commandments!
Psa 112:2 His offspring will be mighty in the land; the generation of the upright will be blessed.
Psa 112:3 Wealth and riches are in his house, and his righteousness endures forever.

It isn't like a fear of a tryrant, to be scared all the time.....It more like you want to do good to please him, praise him and glorify our Holy God and father, in everyway I possible can. It is a personal relationship that I tell him of all my fears and my prayers for people. God has blessed my life so much.
and I know I could not have turned my life around without the Holy Spirit guiding me. My life now is one of peace and contentment and joy.

Before I was too busy with my everyday life to give God or Jesus a thought.
Now if I do something wrong...I feel so guilty and upset because I have hurt my heavenly Father .

So please tell me why Allah has to scare the living stuffings out of everyone? Why can't we just love him instead? It seems that the main message is fear, not love. Which is a problem for me, but that doesn't refute it's divine authorship actually, just clarifies my personal issue.

yes there is a fear of where people will end up...and I do get upset about that and pray to God for everyone...I don't know about the Koran but in the Bible we are told of predestination that God as already choosen the people who will be saved even before they where born. He knows who belong to him and who do not..It tells us if you are have been predestened then there is no way you cannot be saved and live in eternity with him..God would not allow it.

We should love God I believe thought if you don't fear him you can't love him...

[akr4m]

:sl:
In the name of Allah Most Gracious Most Mercifull
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.

To my fellow non-muslims May peace and blessing be upon you.

I have glanced through some of the posts in this thread, one particular that cought my attention was from nicole

Before I was too busy with my everyday life to give God or Jesus a thought.

You seem like a nice person, i hope to discuss on this matter - whether Jesus = God, i hope you dont mind? with an open mind ofcourse.

Before i leave i want to ask a quick question (to nicole), what happens if some one proves to you that Jesus is < God, and is a prophet?

take care:)

With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read).
(Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #59)

:w:

[akr4m]

:sl:
In the name of ALLAH Most Gracious Most Merciful

"With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read). "
(Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #59)


Hello sister sargon, i couldnt help noticing your post, i hope to answer some of your questions and Inshallah clear some of your doubts.

So I guess I'm asking is Allah talking about the Zionist in the Quran or was Mohammed just angry at the Jews around him? I hate to say this because I'm muslim but it sounds like Mohammed wrote it because of the way it's directed at certain groups... like if I was writing a book like that I would say stuff like don't be like them, because they're goin to hell.

Did Mohammad write the book, that’s a funny question, but I like your honesty and I should respect your doubts.

However lets analyse though, to proceed the Quran is not the prophet’s word, rather its God’s word, the Almighty’s word. It is impossible for the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to have written the Quran, or any other human being for that matter. If only you had read the entire Quran you would have understood.

I’ll try to explain it as briefly as possible, why the Quran is not the word of the Prophet (pbuh).

First, he was an illiterate!! How can an illiterate person come up with such a rich, poetic, intellectual, and inspiring text that it rocked the entire Arabia ?

Mohammad (pbuh) never went to school! No one taught him. He had no teacher of any kind in any subjects. How can he have the knowledge of all the science, astronomy, oceanography, etc that is contained in the Quran ? ( For example, the mention of ocean currents, stars, earth, moon, sun and their fixed paths in Soorah Rahman; and many other scientific statements that are found in Quran, that I cannot state in this short time)

When the Quran was revealed, the Arabic language was at its peak in richness, poetic value, literature, etc. Quran came and challenged the best literature in Arabic, the best poetry in Arabic of the time. Mohammad (pbuh) being illiterate couldn’t possibly have come up with something so immaculate that it even exceeded the best of poetry, and literature in Arabic at the time of the language's PEAK development. Arabic language had never been so rich in expression, poetic value, vocabulary, and variety in literature, as it was in the time of Quran. At a time like this, Quran came and exceeded the best of Arabic in all aspects of the language: poetry, literature, expression, etc. Any classical Arabic speaker would appreciate the unbeaten, unchallenged, and unmatched beauty of the language of Quran.
An illiterate man is simply not capable of writing such a book.
Mohammad (pbuh) had no reason to come up with something like Quran, and cause the entire society of Arabia to become his enemy. Why would he do something like that? Why would he write something going against almost all of the norms of the society, and lose his family, relatives, friends, and other loved ones , and not to mention all the wealth he lost ?
Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years! A very long time! Is it possible for someone to maintain the same exact style of Arabic speech, as demonstrated in Quran, for over 23 years?

Also, what the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) used to say is recorded in what we call his hadeeth (sunnah). If we look at the Arabic style of the hadeeth, and compare it with the style of Quran, we can clearly see that they are clearly DIFFERENT and DISTINGUISHABLE Arabic styles. The prophet (pbuh) spoke in public. It does not make sense that a man has two UNIQUE, Distinguishable, and completely different styles of speech in public. Yet another reason why Mohammad (pbuh) couldn't possibly have written Quran.

About Mary
The following verse in the Quran:
"Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you - Chosen you above the women of all nations." Qur'an-3:42"
Chosen you above the women of all nations." Such an honour is not to be found given to Mary even in the Christian Bible ........... Knowing full-well, and believing as I do, that the whole Quran is the veritable Word of God, I will nevertheless agree, for the sake of argument, with you for a moment, that he wrote it. We can now expect some cooperation from you.
I ask you, "Have you any qualms in agreeing that Muhammad (pbuh) was an Arab?" Only an opinionated fool will hesitate to agree. In that case there is no sense in pursuing any discussion.
With the man of reason, I proceed. "That this Arab, in the first instance, was addressing other Arabs. He was not talking to Indian Muslims, Chinese Muslims, or Nigerian Muslims. He was addressing his own people - the Arabs. Whether they agreed with him or not, he told them in the most sublime form - words that were seared into the hearts and minds of his listeners that Mary the mother of Jesus -A JEWESS- was chosen above the women of all nations. Not his own mother, nor his wife nor his daughter, nor any other Arab woman, but a Jewess! Can one explain this? Because to everyone his own mother or wife, or daughter would come before other women.
Why would the Prophet of Islam honour a woman from his opposition! and a Jewess at that! Belonging to a race which had been looking down upon his people for three thousand years?.

Sarah and Hagar
From the Bible the Jews are told their father, Abraham, had two wives -Sarah and Hagar. They say that they are the children of Abraham through Sarah, his legitimate wife; that their Arab brethren have descended through Hagar, a "bondwoman", and that as such, the Arabs are inferior breed.

Will anyone please explain the anomaly as to why Muhammed (pbuh) (if he is the author) chose this Jewess for such honour? The answer is simple – he had no choice - he had no right to speak of his own desire. "IT IS NO LESS THAN AN INSPIRATION SENT DOWN TO HIM." (Qur'an, 53:4).
Sura Maryam
There is a Chapter in the Holy Quran, named Sura Maryam "Chapter Mary" (XIX) named in honour of Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ (pbuh); again, such an honour is not to be found given to Mary in the Christian Bible. Out of the 66 books of the Protestants and 73 of the Roman Catholics, not one is named after Mary or her son. You will find books named after Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, but not a single one is that of Jesus or Mary

If Muhammed (pbuh) was the author of the Holy Quran, then he would not have failed to include in it with MARYAM, the mother of Jesus, his own mother - AMINA, his dear wife - KHADIJA, or his beloved daughter - FATIMA.

Finally, if the Quran was from Muhammad (pbuh), and we know humans make mistakes, then surely out of the 600 pages, and 114 chapters the author of the book would have made a mistake some where along the line. But the Quran is flawless, hence it is from God.
ALLAH CHALLENGES:
Chapter 2, Verses 23
"And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to our servant, Then produce a Chapter like thereunto; And call your witnesses or helpers besides Allah, If you are true."(2: 23.)

I hope this has helped you sister.

moving to your next Question.

So please tell me why Allah has to scare the living stuffings out of everyone? Why can't we just love him instead? It seems that the main message is fear, not love. Which is a problem for me, but that doesn't refute it's divine authorship actually, just clarifies my personal issue.

If Allah forgives all and punishes none, who will obey him?
If Allah (swt) forgives each and every human being and punishes no one, then why should the human beings obey the command of Allah (swt)? This world would become hell to live in. If all human beings are going to go to heaven then what is the purpose and use of the human beings to come to this world, this life cannot be called a test for the hereafter.

If you are a sincere and true believer then why should Allah scare the living stuffing’s out of you? Allah doesn’t scare everyone, why are you saying everyone?
Allah is scaring those who commit evil; don’t you think that’s good? Don’t you think Allah ought to tell the wrong doers where they will end up if they commit evil actions, i.e. commit murder, rape, oppression etc.
However even to the evil doers Allah always shows his infinite mercy, have you noticed in numerous Sura in the Quran after scaring the evil doers, Allah follows up with “…and Allah is all-forgiving all merciful…”, to show his love for those who repent sincerely and turn back to Allah.

Man's love for Allah is all about striving hard to uphold His Deen and obedience to Him, His Messenger or any system or authority that implements His Rule. In return, Allah's love for man is about being Gracious and Beneficent to man and providing him protection from the harmful consequences of his shortcomings or inadvertent mistakes [See, 3:31-32, 5:54, 9:24]. In the Quran, various types of people are mentioned whom Allah LOVES, i.e. who get blessed with His special grace, beneficence and protection.

Allah loves Muhsineen [2:195, 3:134, 3:148, 5:13, 5:93] [Those who do good (to others); who spend (benevolently) in the cause of Allah (2:195) in favorable as well as in adverse circumstances; who divert and sublimate their anger and potentially virulent emotions to creative energy and become a source of tranquility and comfort to people; who quickly correct any wrong or indecency that has occurred from them, remember Allah, protect themselves from trailing behind in dignity and refrain from willfully persisting in error. [3:134-135]; who pardon and forbear [5:13]; who do not spread corruption on earth [7:56]; who strive hard for Him [29:69]; who establish As-Salaat [remembering Him (20:14, 62:9) all the time (70:23) and at appointed times (4:103, 62:9), and follow His Guidance in all the affairs] and keep the resources, that He has bestowed upon them, open [for the welfare of humanity]. (2:177, 9:44, 39:33, 92:17-20) [31:3-4]; who are the believing servants of Allah [37:110-111, 37:121-122, 37:131-132]; who sleep but little at night (reflecting on His Commands and on ways to implement His Commands) and heartily seek to be guarded against imperfections (51:16-18)].

Allah loves Tawwabeen [2:222][Those who turn to rightfulness and recourse much to Him and His Guidance]

Allah loves Mutahhareen [2:222, 9:108] [Those who keep their bodies free from filth, minds distant from dirty thoughts and conduct clean from unseemly acts]

Allah loves Muttaqeen [3:76, 9:4, 9:7] [Those who guard themselves against evil and preserve themselves from the inevitable harmful consequences for violating Allah's Commands by carefully abiding by His Guidance, not exceeding His Prescribed Limits and not deviating or departing from His Right Path; those who render service and obedience to Him alone (2:21) and observe the prescribed abstinence (2:183-187); those who believe in Him, Divine Books, Aakhrat, Malaika, Prophets, and in the existence of the Unseen, that which is beyond the reach of human perception (by the senses) {Allah (21:49, 35:18, 36:11, 50:33, 67:12), Al-Saa’at (16:77, 32:5-6, 34:3, 72:25-26) when every person will get the recompense for that which he strives (20:15), the day of resurrection (27:65-66) and the everlasting paradise (19:61)}(2:3-4, 2:177); those who establish As-Salaat [remembering Him (20:14, 62:9) all the time (70:23) and at appointed times (4:103, 62:9), and follow His Guidance in all the affairs] and keep the resources, that He has bestowed upon them, open [for the welfare of humanity]. (2:177, 9:44, 39:33, 92:17-20) [31:3-4]; those who give from their wealth to family and relatives, orphans, widows to those left helpless in the society, to those whose hard-earned income fails to meet their basic needs, to those whose running businesses have stalled, to those who have lost their jobs, to the one whose life has stalled for any reason, to the disabled, the needy wayfarer, son of the street, the homeless, the one who travels to them for assistance, to those who ask for help, and to those whose necks are burdened with any kind of bondage, oppression, crushing debts and extreme hardship of labour [2:177]; those who spend their wealth for their own tazkiya or personal development and not for favour from anyone to be paid back [92:17-20]; those who are true to their promises and covenants whenever they make a promise or covenant [2:177, 8:56, 9:4, 9:7]; those who remain steadfast in physical or emotional distress and in times of peril [2:177]; those who avoid great sins and fawahish (yet not ascribe purity to themselves) [53:32]; those who promote the truth and believe therein [39:33]; those who remember Allah immediately, when approached by devil [7:201]; those who strive in the way of Allah by their wealth and lives [9:44]; and those who will be in the pure state when Angels come to take their lives [16:31-32]

Allah loves Sabireen [3:146][Those who have capacity to endure hardship, difficulty, or inconvenience with calmness and self-control; those who can exhibit tolerance and restraint in the face of provocation; those who have calm and tranquil state of mind; those who can exhibit composure, equanimity, self-constraint, self-control, steadfastness, determination, perseverance and endurance; those who steadily adhere to the statutes of Quran; those who maintain constancy with Allah; those who show patience, endurance, equanimity and adherence to the Laws of Allah in harm, injury, mischief damage, poverty, bodily affliction, distress, lack of means of subsistence, misfortune, calamity, fear, hunger, a state of pressing want, loss of money, loss of life or loss of fruits of their toil (2:177, 2:155, 22:35); those who show patience and endurance in the face of rejection (6:34); those who show equanimity and composure when people make them a laughing stock for their True convictions (23:110-111); those who show steadfastness and perseverance in seeking their Lord’s Countenance (13:22); those who show equanimity and adherence to Allah’s laws when wealth, fortune, plenty or ease comes after poverty, misfortune, scarcity, or hardship (11:9-10); those who show patience, calm and tranquillity of mind while waiting for Allah’s judgement and the results of their actions (7:87); and those who show self-constraint and self-control in sexual matters (4:25)]

Allah loves Mutawakkileen [3:159] [Those who put their trust in Allah and His Laws after seeking His Guidance, deliberation, consultation, decision making, resolution and determination]
Allah loves Muqsiteen [5:42, 49:9, 60:8][Those who act equitably and justly, and judge and make reconciliation among people with equity, fairness and justice]

Allah loves those who fight in His way against tyranny, injustice, wrongdoings, aggression and transgression, [61:4]

I hope my post hase helped you sister Sargon, take care may Allah guide you and strengthen your faith (ameen).:)

:w:

"Say: If the sea were ink for the words of my Lord, the sea would surely be consumed before the words of my Lord are exhausted, though We were to bring the like of that (sea) to add "
(Al-Kahf, Chapter #18, Verse #109)

[waji]

:sl:
Quran is the word of Allah
We were created by Allah for someone he is God. Allah knows every thing about us and in the universe so he know better what is good for us imean the way of life is better for us.
so Allah sent the Prophets in different times with his messege.
Do each Prophet sent was with different religion?
That is the point we have to understand number of Prophets were sent with messeges of Allah but after that Prophet people made changes and again started things what they think was right That also tells us that All Prophets were leading to Islam (Peace) one religion from one Allah to whole madkind
so Allah sent another Prophet with the messege(truth and code of life) so time by time Prophet were sent when people changed the things
Then Allah sent his Last Prophets with the messege in the form of Quran and Sunnah and one more and most important thing Allah did that was to protect Quran from any changes
so that Truth remained as it is and no other prohpet will be sent after Prophet Muhammad why he would be sent as Truth remains the same messege hasn't been changed.

Now if u see that Quran remains the same and no metter from where u get the copy of Quran, no metter how old copy of it u compare it with some other copy, u will find the same thing no change
No metter how many sect are there in Muslims but Quran is the same
So
Quran is the code of life
in which there are Signs
so
Quran is the book of Signs
not Science

May Allah Guide us All to the right Path
:w:

[Nicola]

You seem like a nice person, i hope to discuss on this matter - whether Jesus = God, i hope you dont mind? with an open mind ofcourse.

Thankyou...I try... :)


I would welcome any debate

Before i leave i want to ask a quick question (to nicole), what happens if some one proves to you that Jesus is < God, and is a prophet?

take care

I believe that Jesus is the word of God, God turned his word into flesh(Jesus)...so God knowing everything would also make Gods (word, a prophet also) and also the Holy Spirit...it is He who gives us revelations...to the future...
The only difference between Jesus and the Father, from what Jesus tells us in the Bible...is that only God knows exactly when his Kingdom will come here on earth..the hour and day is discided by God.
I believe Jesus will know being the word when God speaks it...because Jesus is just that 'the word'

[IbnAbdulHakim]

read the quran, try to understand

and this is the most important thing,

wen u quote..

DO NOT QUOTE OUT OF CONTEXT


ok now find one sentence which negates the other (contradicts) and u will have proven its not Gods word.

Easy right? WELL DO IT!

:sl:

[QURBAN]

Hi Nicole-

I have responded to John 1:1

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

If you believe the third part of this verse "and the word was God" to be the definite form of God (Hotheos), it causes a problem!

with respect to
2nd Corinthians 4:4- Satan would be God
and Exodus 7:1- Moses would be God

since this thread is about the Holy Quran and its authenticity i would appreciate any response or refutation to John 1:1 in the other thread, titled Personal Encounters with God!

Kind Regards

Qurban

[HeiGou]

read the quran, try to understand

and this is the most important thing,

wen u quote..

DO NOT QUOTE OUT OF CONTEXT

ok now find one sentence which negates the other (contradicts) and u will have proven its not Gods word.

Easy right? WELL DO IT!

Well it is not easy. After all Muslims have been studying their scripture for years and years and years. If there were contradictions they would have noticed, and, as they are still Muslims, they must have a good reason why this is the so - just as Christians do for "contradictions" in the Bible. As you say yourself - quote in context. That context would be what exactly?

Take one example, Adam talked to God. So he must have been a Muslim right?

002.037
YUSUFALI: Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then Adam received from his Lord words (of revelation), and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: Then Adam received (some) words from his Lord, so He turned to him mercifully; surely He is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

And there were other Muslims after him, for instance

003.067
YUSUFALI: Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.
PICKTHAL: Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.
SHAKIR: Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.

But if so who says this?

006.014
YUSUFALI: Say: "Shall I take for my protector any other than Allah, the Maker of the heavens and the earth? And He it is that feedeth but is not fed." Say: "Nay! but I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah (in Islam), and be not thou of the company of those who join gods with Allah."
PICKTHAL: Say: Shall I choose for a protecting friend other than Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, Who feedeth and is never fed? Say: I am ordered to be the first to surrender (unto Him). And be not thou (O Muhammad) of the idolaters.
SHAKIR: Say: Shall I take a guardian besides Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, and He feeds (others) and is not (Himself) fed. Say: I am commanded to be the first who submits himself, and you should not be of the polytheists.

006.163
YUSUFALI: No partner hath He: this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who bow to His will.
PICKTHAL: He hath no partner. This am I commanded, and I am first of those who surrender (unto Him).
SHAKIR: No associate has He; and this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who submit.

But wait, someone else thinks they are first too,

007.143
YUSUFALI: When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."
PICKTHAL: And when Moses came to Our appointed tryst and his Lord had spoken unto him, he said: My Lord! Show me (Thy Self), that I may gaze upon Thee. He said: Thou wilt not see Me, but gaze upon the mountain! If it stand still in its place, then thou wilt see Me. And when his Lord revealed (His) glory to the mountain He sent it crashing down. And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers.
SHAKIR: And when Musa came at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said: My Lord! show me (Thyself), so that I may look upon Thee. He said: You cannot (bear to) see Me but look at the mountain, if it remains firm in its place, then will you see Me; but when his Lord manifested His glory to the mountain He made it crumble and Musa fell down in a swoon; then when he recovered, he said: Glory be to Thee, I turn to Thee, and I am the first of the believers.

Only a fool would think that there is a contradiction here. There is a good explanation and no doubt if I ask nicely (and I do) someone will tell me what the traditional explanation is.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ you have quoted out of context sir!!!! in order for me to distinguish what is being said i must read the whole surah WIV the tafseer! That is what i meant by read the quran and "UNDERSTAND" it.

but hei-gou out of respect for ur kind questioning i will inshaAllah read the tafseer and get bak 2 u on this as it interests me :)

Peace man :)

[Soldier2000]

Only a fool would think that there is a contradiction here

Thats the first sensible thing you have put forward !

Hi HeiGou-

Say: "Nay! but I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah (in Islam), and be not thou of the company of those who join gods with Allah.

Yes the First from his ummah!

And Moses (PBUH) first from his!

[czgibson]

Greetings,

ok now find one sentence which negates the other (contradicts) and u will have proven its not Gods word.

Easy right? WELL DO IT!

What about abrogated verses? Don't later abrogating verses negate earlier ones?

Peace

[HeiGou]

Say: "Nay! but I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah (in Islam), and be not thou of the company of those who join gods with Allah.

Yes the First from his ummah!

And Moses (PBUH) first from his!

And Abraham and Adam?

But there you go - a foolish kafir might think that was a contradiction, just as a Muslim might quote the Bible thinking there was, but there is obviously a reason. After all the class of smart Muslims is not empty or even close to zero.

[------]

What do u mean? Expand plz czgibson.

[Soldier2000]

heigou-

you latest question is pending will address it alter, need to go, will miss my train other wise-

catch you later-

people who think that their is a contrdiction in the Quran, like you say, are just foolish!

[Soldier2000]

i mean later- not alter

[czgibson]

Greetings,

What do u mean? Expand plz czgibson.

See here: Abrogation and the Unalterable Word of God (by Ansar Al-'Adl)

Peace

[------]

Rather, God knew in advance, and intended to send temporary laws for the early Muslims that would later be abrogated once the Muslim society became established.

From this site shows the almighty-ness of Allah.

[HeiGou]

Rather, God knew in advance, and intended to send temporary laws for the early Muslims that would later be abrogated once the Muslim society became established.

From this site shows the almighty-ness of Allah.

Yes but you know that because you are a Muslima already. Can you see how it might look to someone who wasn't a Muslim?

[------]

To be honest, no I cannot. As I cannot put myself in a non-muslims place. Sorry.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Concerning who was the first Muslim (I responded to this at least twice on the forum before - a rep-point for whoever can find it :) ), look at this verse which quotes what the magicians in the court of Pharoah said when they believed in the message of Moses:
26:51. Verily! We really hope that our Lord will forgive us our sins, as we are the first of the believers

Yet, they already knew that Musa and Harun were already believers. It shows that context is important.

That was the first point. The second point is that the phrase awalul mu'mineen can also be understood to mean the foremost amongst the believers, not necessarily the first amongst the believers.

Regards

[czgibson]

Greetings,

The second point is that the phrase awalul mu'mineen can also be understood to mean the foremost amongst the believers, not necessarily the first amongst the believers.

These two phrases can be synonymous in English, too, so it's possible the translator intended the meaning 'foremost amongst the believers'.

Peace

[Nicola]

Surah[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.

Please explain this for me..Most the Jews even today say Jesus wasn't the Messiah and the Jews back then certainly didn't recognize him as the Messiah ...so why does this say: they claimed that they had killed the Messiah..

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Nicola

Please explain this for me..Most the Jews even today say Jesus wasn't the Messiah and the Jews back then certainly didn't recognize him as the Messiah ...so why does this say: they claimed that they had killed the Messiah..

Why does the Bible say in Matthew 27:29 and Mark 15:18 that they said, "Hail, King of the Jews" ? The same reason. They said it in "jest and mockery" as Ibn Kathir points out. Obviously they did not accept him as the messiah or the king of the Jews.

Hello Izmi

If it means the very Word of God, written verbatim by God Himself, then the Quran cannot be the Word of God.

This thread requires that one post evidence to back up their claims.

One more thing which is unbelievable from God is "abrogation": He corrects Himself.

Izmi, you should read a thread first before replying. You would have noticed this link was given:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...e_Word_of_God/
(see pt. 2)

[Nicola]

Why does the Bible say in Matthew 27:29 and Mark 15:18 that they said, "Hail, King of the Jews" ? The same reason. They said it in "jest and mockery" as Ibn Kathir points out. Obviously they did not accept him as the messiah or the king of the Jews.

I know they did not accept him...so why would Muhammad say...they 'the Jews' claimed to have killed the Messiah...What Messiah, they are still awaiting their Messiah...

Jews never admitted that Jesus was Messiah not once and would not have killed him if they had believed that he was their long-awaited Messianic. The unbelieving Jews had Jesus killed because they believed he was a false Messiah..

That is entirley different to what Mohammed says.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I know they did not accept him...so why would Muhammad say...they 'the Jews' claimed to have killed the Messiah...What Messiah, they are still awaiting their Messiah...

Jews never admitted that Jesus was Messiah not once and would not have killed him if they had believed that he was their long-awaited Messianic. The unbelieving Jews had Jesus killed because they believed he was a false Messiah..

That is entirley different to what Mohammed says.

I think Ansar has answered your question, hasn't he? They were calling Jesus "the Messiah" in jest, in an ironic way, and Mohammad (pbuh) was simply quoting their words. Didn't the Romans crucify Jesus with the inscription IESVS NAZARENVS REX IVDAEORVM ? Did they really believe he was the King of the Jews? Did the Jews believe it? Of course not.

Peace

[Nicola]

Greetings,


I think Ansar has answered your question, hasn't he? They were calling Jesus "the Messiah" in jest, in an ironic way, and Mohammad (pbuh) was simply quoting their words. Didn't the Romans crucify Jesus with the inscription IESVS NAZARENVS REX IVDAEORVM ? Did they really believe he was the King of the Jews? Did the Jews believe it? Of course not.

Peace

The religious leaders did not believe who he was but the Jewish people did believe he was their Messiah..
These people who cheered for Jesus understood exactly who he was..because of the the prophecy from Zachairah..

Zechariah 9

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

Luke 19
35And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.
36And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way.
37And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
38Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

Mohammeds scripture could be taken either way...I don't find it clear at all.

[akr4m]

:sl:
In the name of Allah Most Gracious Most Merciful
Say; He is God one and only
God eternal, absolute
He begetteth not nor is he begotten
And there is no one like him

To my fellow non-muslims, may peace and blessings be upon you.
Greetings Nicole how are you? Waow a lot has been posted while I was away, anyways, I’ll begin by answering your question inshallah (God willing)

And would not have killed him if they had believed that he was their long-awaited Messianic. The unbelieving Jews had Jesus killed because they believed he was a false Messiah..

I believe you just answered your own question, the Jews rejected Jesus as being the messiah, that’s why they where uttering these words in mockery.

Ibn Kathir Tafsir:
The Jews ("We killed Al-Masih, `Isa, son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah,'') meaning, we killed the person who claimed to be the Messenger of Allah. The Jews only uttered these words in jest and mockery, just as the polytheists said (O you to whom the Dhikr (the Qur'an) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man!).

I hope that answered your question, now I hope to ask you some questions regarding Jesus = God, but lets deal with one at a time.

Why do you believe that the word “God” used in the phrase
John 1:1 “…and the Word was God” means “God” (the almighty) the definite form?

Let me make it clearer; the Greek word for ‘God’ used in the phrase “and the Word was with God,” is the definite form Hotheos, meaning ‘The God’.
However, in the second phrase “and the Word was God”, the Greek word used for ‘God’ is the indefinite form Tontheos, which means ‘a god’.

Consequently, John 1:1, should more accurately be translated,
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”
Therefore, if the Word was a ‘god’ in the literal sense, it would mean that there were two Gods and not one.

Let me explain “and the word was God” – which in simple terms is – Word = God (the definite form), hence lets substitute the word “God” for “Word” we get

“In the beginning was the God (word), and the GOD (word) was with GOD…”
You can see this indicates 2 Gods being present at the same time “God was with God”

However, in Biblical language, the term ‘god’ is used metaphorically to indicate power. For example, Paul referred to the devil as “god” in

2nd Corinthians 4:4,
“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.”

Moses is also referred to as “god” in
Exodus 7:1,
“And the Lord said unto Moses, ‘See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.”
Now if we translate the original meaning of the indefinite form for “God” which is “god” with a little “g”, which metaphorically indicates power, we get the following - Word = power (“god”)
Let’s substitute this in to the verse

“In the beginning was the power, and the power was with God…”

Now that’s clearer don’t you think?

However even if you disagree, then explain why, the same Greek word for “God” (the indefinite form) was used to identify the Devil and Moses?

If we agree with you, then we have to agree that the Devil = God and Moses = God.

By the way, why do you say Mohammad’s scripture, with all due respect didn’t you read my previous post - how it is impossible for Mohammad to have written such an immaculate book like the Quran. Let me know if you haven’t read that post ill try posting it again inshallah (God willing).

take care:)
:w:

"With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read). "
(Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #59)

[i_m_tipu]

:salamext:

The Qur’ân is Mohammad’s scripture????

How Blind they r

Compare any book of GOD with the Noble Qur’ân

no doubt u will see how accurate and reliable and unedited the noble Qur’ân is from others.


Muslim can be cursed but the Islam is not cursed at all
BCoz The unchanged Qur’ân is the based of Islam:)
The Noble Qur’ân is our base


Prophet Mohammad (pubh) is the last and the best of all
He is not for any nation but for the whole world


the Noble Qur’ân is 100% pure
the Noble Qur’ân is the best vision of GOD law
their is no Book of God come after The Noble Qur’ân and shall not come either


their is no prophet come after after the prophet Mohammad (pubh) and shall not come either.
Islam is the complete religion


God send various prophets with the updated vision of God law in order to established God law.
those who believe there is one God and stuck themselves with the old vision of
GOD law surely the poorest people on earth
Simply BCoz they sacrifice their life for nothing.........

[izmi]

MODERATOR'S COMMENT: IZMI WAS MANSIO (PREVIOUSLY BANNED USER)

[HeiGou]

The second point is that the phrase awalul mu'mineen can also be understood to mean the foremost amongst the believers, not necessarily the first amongst the believers.

These two phrases can be synonymous in English, too, so it's possible the translator intended the meaning 'foremost amongst the believers'.

Although as English accepts the idea the two phrases are synonymous it is hard to explain why they did not choose the second.

The other problem with Classical Arabic of course is that you can make it mean pretty much what you like. Especially if you have an answer in mind. Look at our "egg-shaped" planet.

[HeiGou]

Why then did God chose Arabic for the Koran? That would contradict its "clearness".

No point asking me. You would have to ask a Muslim.

[vpb]

It is rather men that have collected them and put them in the Koran.

do you have evidence for this? or you're just speakin whatever is coming up in your mind?

[QURBAN]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

Peace To Those Who Follow The Guidance


“And if We had sent this as a Quran in a foreign language other than Arabic, they would have said: "Why are not its Verses explained in detail (in our language)? What! (A Book) not in Arabic and (the Messenger) an Arab?"
Say: "It is for those who believe, a guide and a healing. And as for those who disbelieve, there is heaviness (deafness) in their ears, and it (the Quran) is blindness for them. They are those who are called from a place far away (so they neither listen nor understand).”

Holy Quran 41:44 (Moshin Khan English Transalation)


Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe.

[Soldier2000]

The other problem with Classical Arabic of course is that you can make it mean pretty much what you like.

Why then did God chose Arabic for the Koran? That would contradict its "clearness".

It sound like both of you are experts in the Quranic language- and in the field Linguistics in general- your knowledge in linguistic must be at a scholarly level for you to recognise there are languages available other than the Quranic language which are more efficient, especially when it….


- comes to the precise statement of laws
- accuracy
- Pronunciation
- Etc. etc


In which case if you could be kind enough to read through the articles provided in the below links, and refute them!

http://www.islamawareness.net/Quran/..._of_quran.html

http://www.---------------/quran/arabic.html

[i_m_tipu]

HeiGou

Why then did God chose Arabic for the Koran? That would contradict its "clearness".

What does it mean

Why u think world is made for u
world is made for everyone


In the name of Allaah most gracious, most merciful

41:44
And if We had sent this as a Qur'an in a foreign language other than arabic, they would have said: "Why are not its Verses explained in detail (in our language)? What! (A Book) not in arabic and (the Messenger) an Arab?" Say: "It is for those who believe, a guide and a healing. And as for those who disbelieve, there is heaviness (deafness) in their ears, and it (the Qur'an) is blindness for them. They are those who are called from a place far away (so they neither listen nor understand).



2:88
And they say, "Our hearts are wrapped (i.e. do not hear or understand Allah's Word)." Nay, Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so little is that which they believe.

How true the word of Allaah

[IbnAbdulHakim]

please people lets call it Quran and not "koran", thats like me calling the bible bimple

PEACE

[i_m_tipu]

I do not see anything in the Koran that proves it is written by God himself.

Which part of the Koran could not have been written by men?

Most of what is in the Koran can be found in judaism, christianity, various sects from the 7th century, folklore and even Arab paganism.

I do not see why God would bother composing folklore tales. It is rather men that have collected them and put them in the Koran.

if u can't write
pls dont write
u r baseless
every Religion has a base(maybe partly broken or fully broken or not broken at all) for fight
what u r fighing for??

u really don't know what r u fighting for:)

[vpb]

i_m_tipu, bro. he's just trying to find hair inside the egg

[i_m_tipu]

hahahahaha.........

[HeiGou]

HeiGou

What does it mean

Why u think world is made for u
world is made for everyone

Umm, not me. That was someone else.

I would like to think the world was made for me. But I do not think it was.

In the name of Allaah most gracious, most merciful

41:44
And if We had sent this as a Qur'an in a foreign language other than arabic, they would have said: "Why are not its Verses explained in detail (in our language)? What! (A Book) not in arabic and (the Messenger) an Arab?" Say: "It is for those who believe, a guide and a healing. And as for those who disbelieve, there is heaviness (deafness) in their ears, and it (the Qur'an) is blindness for them. They are those who are called from a place far away (so they neither listen nor understand).

2:88
And they say, "Our hearts are wrapped (i.e. do not hear or understand Allah's Word)." Nay, Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so little is that which they believe.

How true the word of Allaah

Hmmm, it is hard to reconcile that first bit with the idea that the Quran was a book for all peoples - that Islam wasn't just a religion for Arabs. But it is not important.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

if u can't write
pls dont write

Why are you complaining about the quality of someone's writing when theirs is pretty much flawless and yours is all over the place?

Those who use the Arabic words should use them without spelling mistakes. The starter of the thread has written "Quran" and so has Abd Majid. The hamza is missing and the length of the "a" is not indicated.

I'm not sure if there's a unanimous agreement on rendering Arabic words in Roman script. Sometimes you see 'Qur'an' and sometimes 'Qur'aan'; sometimes 'Islam' and somtimes 'Islaam'. I don't know if one or other of these is preferred and thought of as correct. I'm sure someone on the forum will be able to tell us.

Peace

[Nicola]

Greetings Nicole how are you?

fine thanks and yourself :)

I believe you just answered your own question, the Jews rejected Jesus as being the messiah, that’s why they where uttering these words in mockery.

Ibn Kathir Tafsir:
The Jews ("We killed Al-Masih, `Isa, son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah,'') meaning, we killed the person who claimed to be the Messenger of Allah. The Jews only uttered these words in jest and mockery, just as the polytheists said (O you to whom the Dhikr (the Qur'an) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man!).

I hope that answered your question, now

Sorry it hasn't answered the question at all..
It does not tell us in Surah 4:157 that they killed the person who claimed himself to be the messiah

But

It tells us this below .. they claimed they had killed the Messiah...not killed the one claiming to be the Messiah...

This is an entirely different meaning all together.

Surah:[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD

Why would the Jews claimed to have killed their own Messiah? after all they where waiting for him. This does not make any sense..

Your sentence would make more sense I know, concerning what the truth acutally was, but it doesn't say that in the Quran. It says the opposite.


about your other question If you'd like to join in on Personal encounters...because we are discussing the same subject there...saves typing the same stuff twice..
thanks
peace

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Nicola, I already answered your question but you ignored the Biblical references I gave you. I'll give it you again - Matthew 27:27-31 says:
Then the governor's soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand and knelt in front of him and mocked him. "Hail, king of the Jews!" they said. They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.

By your reasoning I should ask, why do they call him the King of the Jews while they proceed to beat him, abuse him and take him for crucifixion? They clearly did not believe his claims to be the king of the jews, or else they wouldn't have treated him in this manner. If they don't believe he is the king of the jews why does the Bible say that they called him that?

The answer is the same. They said it sarcastically to mock him, and they boasted amongst themselves that they had abused and killed the "king of jews" and "messiah". Obviously, they didn't believe he was either of the two, but they said it in mockery. The Bible records that while beating him they said, "Hail King of Jews" - but they didn't believe he was the king of the Jews. The Qur'an records that they said, "We killed the Messiah!" - but they didnt believe he was the Messiah.

The issue should be very clear now.

[Nicola]

Hello Nicola, I already answered your question but you ignored the Biblical references I gave you. I'll give it you again - Matthew 27:27-31 says:
Then the governor's soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand and knelt in front of him and mocked him. "Hail, king of the Jews!" they said. They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.

By your reasoning I should ask, why do they call him the King of the Jews while they proceed to beat him, abuse him and take him for crucifixion? They clearly did not believe his claims to be the king of the jews, or else they wouldn't have treated him in this manner. If they don't believe he is the king of the jews why does the Bible say that they called him that?

The answer is the same. They said it sarcastically to mock him, and they boasted amongst themselves that they had abused and killed the "king of jews" and "messiah". Obviously, they didn't believe he was either of the two, but they said it in mockery. The Bible records that while beating him they said, "Hail King of Jews" - but they didn't believe he was the king of the Jews. The Qur'an records that they said, "We killed the Messiah!" - but they didnt believe he was the Messiah.

The issue should be very clear now.

thanks for your response...but like I said earlier many Jews did believe he was the King of the Jews...That is the reason why they waved their palm leaves at him and hailed him .It was only the religious leaders, who believed not..

So maybe it was these Jewish people the Koran was referring to. Because if it is those Jewish who believed in him...then the Koran is correct on that point...they did infact kill their Messiah.

If the Koran had of said...he claimed he was the messiah so we killed him that would have been correct...then that would have been plain for all to see.

I know about the Bible reference you gave me, but there are plenty of Bible reference that support the the Jewish people did believe Jesus has their Messiah
So it would be unfair just to take the parts that you mention. Unless we take the whole of the people for and against Jesus.

Hope you see what I'm meaning.

ps also the people spitting and beating him where romans not jews

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

thanks for your response...but like I said earlier many Jews did believe he was the King of the Jews...That is the reason why they waved their palm leaves at him and hailed him .

Nicola, it says the governor's soldiers mocked him and abused him and led him to be crucified despite their saying, "Hail King of the Jews". They soldiers did not believe he was actually the king of the jews, they were mocking him as the verse itself says:
...They put a staff in his right hand and knelt in front of him and mocked him. "Hail, king of the Jews!" they said.

Now if someone suggested that these soldiers boasted "We have killed the King of the Jews! We have killed the Messiah!", after they crucified him [or so they thought], it would be entirely plausible considering their statements before they lead him off. This is all that the Qur'an mentions.

No matter how you try to explain the biblical passage, the same explanation resolves your allegation against the Qur'an. If you say that some Jews believed he was the Messiah and killed him, then you have answered your own question about the Qur'anic verse. If you say that they said it in mockery, then likewise you have answered your own question. No matter how you interpret the Biblical passage the same interpretation resolves any issue you have with the Qur'anic passage.

Regards

[sargon]

Sorry to jump in but about the Jews in the Quran I should take back my comments because those are just personal issues I have from reading websites and not only Quran. I've probably read too many websites that are biased against jewish people, or rather Zionists and use a few Quranic quotes to back up their claims.

There aren't an overwhelming amount of quotes when you actually look at all of it.

http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/

Only 22 verses...

[Skillganon]

Well it is not easy. After all Muslims have been studying their scripture for years and years and years. If there were contradictions they would have noticed, and, as they are still Muslims, they must have a good reason why this is the so - just as Christians do for "contradictions" in the Bible. As you say yourself - quote in context. That context would be what exactly?

If one goes looking for contradiction, one will only convince themselv of contradiction. Now let's look at this verse. I am in a Hurry so I will do a quick Job! Hope I don't make a mess!

Take one example, Adam talked to God. So he must have been a Muslim right?
[indent]002.037
YUSUFALI: Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

Yep, His a musim.

[indent]003.067
YUSUFALI: Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.

Yep abraham was a Muslim.

[indent]006.014
YUSUFALI: Say: "Shall I take for my protector any other than Allah, the Maker of the heavens and the earth? And He it is that feedeth but is not fed." Say: "Nay! but I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah (in Islam), and be not thou of the company of those who join gods with Allah.".

Well it say's first of THOSE (Pagans), obviousely it is refering to specicfic time and place.
Obviousely talking about the pagan, unless you mean the pagan where bowing to the will of Allah, and they where the first muslim.

006.163
YUSUFALI: No partner hath He: this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who bow to His will..

Same as above.

YUSUFALI: When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe.".

Same as above. Specific time, and place.

Only a fool would think that there is a contradiction here. There is a good explanation and no doubt if I ask nicely (and I do) someone will tell me what the traditional explanation is.

Yeah! See their is no contradiction.

Now let me say, all the people on earth stop believeing in God, or bowing down to his will.

Now if I am start bowing down to the will of God now, I will be the first muslim at this time and place.

Note it does not say first muslim ever!

[i_m_tipu]

:salamext:

i think they must tired finding contradiction and having explanation from brother which may make them Shock

but i really love to wellcome their comment which make us do Researching and make us gaining knowledge and stronging our faith insAllaah

something may look bad but bring good later
Allaah knows best

[Mohammed Bilal]

You cant relate quran and modern day science-- those who have studied the quran should know some things about the complex term "al-qadar"

[renak]

Salam
I challenge anyone to prove that the Quran is not the word of God.
It is the word of God,There are numerous examples, but lets have who thinks that the Quran is not the word of God to prove it.

I don't think that anyone can prove that the Quran is not the word of God. I also do not think that anyone can prove that the Quran is the word of God (and yes, I have read all the posts on this thread).

Basically to believe in the Quran (or any religious document) one must have faith.

[Mohsin]

I don't think that anyone can prove that the Quran is not the word of God. I also do not think that anyone can prove that the Quran is the word of God (and yes, I have read all the posts on this thread).

Basically to believe in the Quran (or any religious document) one must have faith.

I disagree
I don't believe i've used just faith. Back when i wasn't quite practicing islam, it just hit me that i'm a muslim who believes only islam is the right religion, and i thought to myself how can i be sure, what if i wasn't born a muslim, so i searched for these proofs. There are so many, just look at the Qur'an

There are scientific miracles. ok some are not so clear and seem vague, but there are clear ones, like about embryology, experts like Keith Moore and others have said these are true verses. the other astronomy verses how space is expanding, how earth and sun rotates. it describes the exact shape of the earth as egg shaped, rather than saying flat. Even if Muhammed PBUH was to guess, he would've said round, but because it's from God it said it was egg shaped, and it's been proved to be geo-spherical. There ae other clear ones, but one more i'd mention is it mentions the bees in female tense. we all know the female bees rule the roost! They all report to Queen bee etc. How could he have guessed that, if anything people say Muslims oppress women so surely he would've thought males dominate here aswell.

Theres the clear prophecies in the Qur'an of the romans victories which at the time didn't look possible. Also the prophecy that Muhammed PBUH's uncle wouldn't convert and end up in hell. His uncle was so evil he would do anything to disprove islam, yet all he had to do was a fake conversion, so easy, but yet he didn't. why would Muhammed PBUH take such a risk and make such a foolish prophecy that is so easy to disprove, only God could have known.

Then theres prophecies of Muhammed PBUH in all the other world scriptures, he's mentioned by name in the Hindu scriptures at least on three occasions as the final prophet. how could that be, thers no history of any tampering by muslims of the hindu scriptures, yet there are numerous clear prophecies. I'll just post one below, i'd like to see comments on it

According to Bhavishya Purana in the Pratisarag Parv III Khand 3 Adhay 3 Shloka 10 to 27 Maharishi Vyas has prophesised:"The Malecha have spoiled the well-known land of the Arabs. Arya Dharma is not to be found in the country. Before also there appeared a misguided fiend whom I had killed; he has now again appeared being sent by a powerful enemy. To show these enemies the right path and to give them guidance, the well-known Muhammad (pbuh), is busy in bringing the Pishachas to the right path. ………….. My followers will be men circumcised, without a tail (on his head), keeping beard, creating a revolution announcing the Aadhaan (the Muslim call for prayer) and will be eating all lawful things. He will eat all sorts of animals except swine. They will not seek purification from the holy shrubs, but will be purified through warfare. On account of their fighting the irreligious nations, they will be known as Musalmaans. I shall be the originator of this religion of the meat-eating nations."

He's also mentioned in the Bible, OT and NT. www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm You can say they are all vague, but its too much of a coincidence when you look at it with a clear perspective. There are even prophecies in Buddhist and Zorastian scriptures

And back to topic of word repetitions, there are too many of these to say its a fluke. Look at the one about the after-life and this life,opposite meanings of words, both appear 115 times, thats too many as it is to say its luck. There are numerous other examples aswell.

Finally all the reverts in islam, it being the fastest growing religion, if you go to websites with stories of reverts you'll see how few of them have anything to do with faith, it's all about logic and clear reasoning. These reverts give a lot of time to think about converting and see the proofs, they can't all be wrong in my opinion

Anyway thats my 2 cents

[HeiGou]

>deletions<
Then theres prophecies of Muhammed PBUH in all the other world scriptures, he's mentioned by name in the Hindu scriptures at least on three occasions as the final prophet. how could that be, thers no history of any tampering by muslims of the hindu scriptures, yet there are numerous clear prophecies. I'll just post one below, i'd like to see comments on it
>deletions<
He's also mentioned in the Bible, OT and NT. www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm You can say they are all vague, but its too much of a coincidence when you look at it with a clear perspective. There are even prophecies in Buddhist and Zorastian scriptures

Actually, technically, Muslims say that he is mentioned in Hindu and Jewish and Christian and Buddhist and Zoroastrian scriptures. You may have noticed that the vast majority of believers in those religions do not find this claim at all convincing. And why would they?

[renak]

I disagree
I don't believe i've used just faith. Back when i wasn't quite practicing islam, it just hit me that i'm a muslim who believes only islam is the right religion, and i thought to myself how can i be sure, what if i wasn't born a muslim, so i searched for these proofs. There are so many, just look at the Qur'an

Perhaps when I finish reading the Quran my opinion will change.

[------]

Perhaps...:? Most definitely I would say.

[Mohsin]

Actually, technically, Muslims say that he is mentioned in Hindu and Jewish and Christian and Buddhist and Zoroastrian scriptures. You may have noticed that the vast majority of believers in those religions do not find this claim at all convincing. And why would they?

Have you read the prophecy i posted. I don't know a single Hindu who refuses to believe he's mentioned in their scriptures, its quite clear. Like i said, they believe its been tampered with, even though theres not a shred of evidence of any muslim ever gathering and burning old copies of the Vedas and Puranas, and then compiling new versions. There would have been riots.
Anyway, i think there are thousands who have seen the true way and then reverted, so obviously they are no longer hindu/buddhist/christian etc. So there are several that have seen the true way.
Even still, people who refuse to believe, it comes as no great suprise. If you were to read the qur'an or even the OT, you will see that when Prophets went to their people with clear miracles they still rejected, just look at jesus PBUH to the Jews, he showed them clear miracles yet they still rejected. people don't want to change their ways, they are far too happy to live the way they are living, people think "My forefathers and family have all believed in this" and this blinds their thinking.

[Mohsin]

Perhaps...:? Most definitely I would say.

Remember only God can guide

[al-fateh]

ROTATION OF SUN AND MOON

Today we know that the Moon revolves around the earth in approximately 29.5 days. The sun also revolves in its own orbit. To understand the sun’s orbit, Dr. Bucaille says that the position of the sun in our galaxy must be considered, and we must therefore call on modern scientific ideas (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 162).

Our galaxy, the milky way galaxy, includes one hundred billion stars situated in such a formation that the galaxy is shaped like a disc. This disc turns around its center like a gramophone record. Now, it is obvious that when a gramophone record turns, any point on the disc would move around and come back to its original position. Similarly, every star in the galaxy moves as the galaxy rotates on its axis. Therefore the stars that are away from the center of the galaxy orbit around the axis. The sun is one of those stars.

Dr. Bucaille explains that modern science has worked out the details of the sun’s orbit as follows:

“To complete one revolution on its own axis, the galaxy and the sun take roughly 250 million years. The sun travels roughly 150 miles per second in the completion of this” (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 162).

After describing this, Dr. Bucaille comments:

“The above is the orbital movement of the sun that was already referred to in the Quran fourteen centuries ago.” (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 162)

And yet this is a new finding. As Dr. Bucaille says, the knowledge of the sun’s orbit is an acquisition of modern astronomy (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 162).

Two verses in the Quran refer to the orbits of the sun and moon. After mentioning the sun and the moon, Allah says:

“Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion” (Quran, 21:33; 36:40).

Even after the Quran was revealed, early commentators could not conceive of the orbits of the sun and moon. The tenth century commentator Tabari could not explain this so he said, “It is our duty to keep silent when we do not know” (XVII, 15 quoted in The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 161).

Dr. Bucaille comments:

“This shows just how incapable men were of understanding this concept of the sun’s and moon’s orbit.” (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 161).

From this it is clear that if the Quran was here expressing an idea already known to the people, the commentators would have easily understood it. But this, as Dr. Bucaille explains was “a new concept that was not to be explained until centuries later” (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 161)

This confirms what Allah said to his prophet, on whom be peace:

“This is of the tidings of the Unseen which we inspire in you (Muhammad). Neither you nor your people knew it before this” (Quran 11:49).

The above information was extracted from Islamic Information and Dawah Centre Website (islaminfo.com)

source: www.myislamweb.com

[irsha]

How can you say the koran is unchanged, when the earliest copy in existence was written at least 100 years after mohummed died?

Read this, and even though I know you will say its just an anti-Islamic page, see if you can meet the challenge of coming up with an earlier version?

---

[Skillganon]

How can you say the koran is unchanged, when the earliest copy in existence was written at least 100 years after mohummed died?

Read this, and even though I know you will say its just an anti-Islamic page, see if you can meet the challenge of coming up with an earlier version?

---

I think you maybe confusing earliest copy available with earliest scripture written down, or compiled.

[irsha]

So, you can tell me where there is an earlier copy?

[Skillganon]

So, you can tell me where there is an earlier copy?

Go and buy a Quran! It is the Copy of the earlier one!

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

How can you say the koran is unchanged, when the earliest copy in existence was written at least 100 years after mohummed died?

My Response:
1. The earliest copy was not written 100 years after Muhammad pbuh died. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh had 65 companions who functioned as scribes for him (names are listed in The History of the Qur'anic Text M. M. Al-Azami, p. 68). Based on all the evidence, the researchers have concluded that in [the Prophet's] own lifetime, the entire Qur'an was available in written form. (Op. cit. p. 69). This was established by classical scholars as well, as mentioned by Al-Khattabi (As-Suyuti, Al-Itqan, i:164).


2. As for what manuscripts have survived till today, the site you referenced is not correct in saying that Even the earliest fragmentary manuscripts of the Koran are all dated no earlier than 100 years after Muhammad died. This is quote simply false. From the Islamic-Awareness site:

There exist at least four Qur'anic manuscripts that are dated to first half of the first century of hijra (i.e., before 50 AH / 670 CE). These are not the `Uthmanic Qur'ans and are parchments written in the hijazi script.

Surah al-`Imran. Verses number : End of verse 45 to 54 and part of 55, Memory Of The World: San`a' Manuscripts, CD-ROM Presentation, UNESCO.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Surah al-Sajda And Surah al-Ahzab, This manuscript from San`a' is dated to first half of the first century of hijra by Hans-Casper Graf von Bothmer.

Surah al-Shura, Surah al-Zukhruf. Verses number : End of verse 49 of Surah al-Shura to verse 31 of Surah al-Zukhruf and part of 32, Memory Of The World: San`a' Manuscripts, CD-ROM Presentation, UNESCO.

Lot No. 12-6428 (Islamic Art & Manuscripts): Surah al-Baqarah. Verses number: 277-282 (recto) 282-286 (verso). Christie's of London auctioned this manuscript to an unknown bidder in 2001. (SOURCE)

So the site is just plain wrong and anyone who had studied even a little bit of the Qur'anic sciences should have picked up that mistake. Naturally, someone only interested in finding anti-islamic material to copy, wouldn't.

3. There is also a fallacy that you are guilty of which the site you referenced does not make. You added to the site's challenge and attempted to turn it into evidence against the Qur'an's preservation. Well, that simply doesn't work because if someone transcribes ancient scripts, that doesn't mean that the book can no longer be considered unchanged. Ancient manuscripts rarely survive for long periods of time. You are supposed to make new copies of the old scripts before they wear out instead of only relying on ancient copies. So even to make a claim that this would mean the Qur'an has been changed is inherently false.

4. Articulate arguments yourself; don't paste anti-islamic links.

5. If you have a serious interest in this topic, the I suggest you read the decisive refutation of all claims against the Qur'an's preservation:
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/islamicb...com/b7626.html

Regards

[irsha]

My Response:
1. The earliest copy was not written 100 years after Muhammad pbuh died. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh had 65 companions who functioned as scribes for him (names are listed in The History of the Qur'anic Text M. M. Al-Azami, p. 68). Based on all the evidence, the researchers have concluded that in [the Prophet's] own lifetime, the entire Qur'an was available in written form. (Op. cit. p. 69). This was established by classical scholars as well, as mentioned by Al-Khattabi (As-Suyuti, Al-Itqan, i:164).


2. As for what manuscripts have survived till today, the site you referenced is not correct in saying that Even the earliest fragmentary manuscripts of the Koran are all dated no earlier than 100 years after Muhammad died. This is quote simply false. From the Islamic-Awareness site:

There exist at least four Qur'anic manuscripts that are dated to first half of the first century of hijra (i.e., before 50 AH / 670 CE). These are not the `Uthmanic Qur'ans and are parchments written in the hijazi script.

Surah al-`Imran. Verses number : End of verse 45 to 54 and part of 55, Memory Of The World: San`a' Manuscripts, CD-ROM Presentation, UNESCO.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Surah al-Sajda And Surah al-Ahzab, This manuscript from San`a' is dated to first half of the first century of hijra by Hans-Casper Graf von Bothmer.

Surah al-Shura, Surah al-Zukhruf. Verses number : End of verse 49 of Surah al-Shura to verse 31 of Surah al-Zukhruf and part of 32, Memory Of The World: San`a' Manuscripts, CD-ROM Presentation, UNESCO.

Lot No. 12-6428 (Islamic Art & Manuscripts): Surah al-Baqarah. Verses number: 277-282 (recto) 282-286 (verso). Christie's of London auctioned this manuscript to an unknown bidder in 2001. (SOURCE)

So the site is just plain wrong and anyone who had studied even a little bit of the Qur'anic sciences should have picked up that mistake. Naturally, someone only interested in finding anti-islamic material to copy, wouldn't.

3. There is also a fallacy that you are guilty of which the site you referenced does not make. You added to the site's challenge and attempted to turn it into evidence against the Qur'an's preservation. Well, that simply doesn't work because if someone transcribes ancient scripts, that doesn't mean that the book can no longer be considered unchanged. Ancient manuscripts rarely survive for long periods of time. You are supposed to make new copies of the old scripts before they wear out instead of only relying on ancient copies. So even to make a claim that this would mean the Qur'an has been changed is inherently false.

4. Articulate arguments yourself; don't paste anti-islamic links.

5. If you have a serious interest in this topic, the I suggest you read the decisive refutation of all claims against the Qur'an's preservation:
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/islamicb...com/b7626.html

Regards

Listen, I just posted that link to save time and space here. If you don't want links, I suggest you ban them for all members. But, I doubt you will do that, you just wanted to pick on me again.
My "argument" is that unless you have an original copy, it is impossible to argue that subsequet copies are unchanged. The argument holds true- If I tok someone to court for plagiarism, I would have to produce an original of my work for comparrison.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Listen, I just posted that link to save time and space here.

That would be convenient for someone who has not done the research and knows absolutely nothing about Qur'anic sciences, wouldn't it?

If you don't want links, I suggest you ban them for all members.

Read the forum rules, #23:
http://www.islamicboard.com/faq/foru..._liforum_rules
It says in plain english that anti-islamic links are not allowed. It shouldn't be a problem for an educated person who is able to articulate the arguments themselves. But for someone who is simply willing to throw mud at Islam by scrounging for anti-islamic sites, the rule would naturally be difficult.

My "argument" is that unless you have an original copy

I've already answered your argument. Respond to what I wrote, don't simply restate it.

[Mohsin]

Ignore Message

[j4763]

So Allah told Mohammed what to write in the Quran and Mohammed then told the 60 odd followers of his to write it down (because he was illiterate). So imo it was the word of Mohammed in the Quran and not of Allah’s.

If Allah had told the followers what to write and not gone through Mohammad then it would be the word of god (as long as they didn’t change anything as they wrote).

[------]

How can you say the koran is unchanged, when the earliest copy in existence was written at least 100 years after mohummed died?

We can say it mate. Trust me. I give you 150% assurance it has not been changed. :D

[------]

So Allah told Mohammed what to write in the Quran and Mohammed then told the 60 odd followers of his to write it down (because he was illiterate). So imo it was the word of Mohammed in the Quran and not of Allah’s.

If Allah had told the followers what to write and not gone through Mohammad then it would be the word of god (as long as they didn’t change anything as they wrote).

No no no no! :heated:

Allah REVEALED the Qur'an to Muhammad (saw), Muhammad (saw) didn't write it from his own words :rollseyes

[j4763]

Ain't that a quote from one of tupac's (2Pac) raps/songs ;D

[------]

I don't listen to songs. And even if it is, I don't know, I only write what comes to me.

P.S. Dnt change the topic :p

[Mohsin]

So Allah told Mohammed what to write in the Quran and Mohammed then told the 60 odd followers of his to write it down (because he was illiterate). So imo it was the word of Mohammed in the Quran and not of Allah’s.

If Allah had told the followers what to write and not gone through Mohammad then it would be the word of god (as long as they didn’t change anything as they wrote).

If God revealed something to the prophet PBUH, and he transmitted the exact same message to the companions, then it is still the work of God, not of Muhammed, he is simply the messenger.
So it remains the wod of God

[HeiGou]

We can say it mate. Trust me. I give you 150% assurance it has not been changed. :D

Well I can accept that as a statement of religious belief, but as a historical fact? How do you know? May I ask you my Rajam question again? Umar said that there used to be a verse on stoning that they recited (as if, I assume, it was part of the Quran). There is no such verse there now. As has been explained to me that verse has been abrogated. Which is fine by me, but when was it abrogated?

[------]

I'm lost agen :rollseyes

[Mohsin]

Umm from what i understand, abrogate doesn't mean the previous verse is lost, it would still be present in the Qur'an, just the rule does not apply anymore. I'm sure Ansar will provide links to explain

[HeiGou]

Well I can accept that as a statement of religious belief, but as a historical fact? How do you know? May I ask you my Rajam question again? Umar said that there used to be a verse on stoning that they recited (as if, I assume, it was part of the Quran). There is no such verse there now. As has been explained to me that verse has been abrogated. Which is fine by me, but when was it abrogated?

I'm lost agen :rollseyes

Sorry. From the Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

>deletions<

In the meantime, 'Umar sat on the pulpit and when the callmakers for the prayer had finished their call, 'Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah as He deserved, he said, "Now then, I am going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.

I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. And the punishment of the Rajam is to be inflicted to any married person (male & female), who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if the required evidence is available or there is conception or confession.

Now according to this, Muslims used to recite a verse which called for the stoning of married men and women who committed adultery. And they do, in fact, stone in theory married men and women for this. But now there is no such verse in the Quran. Ansar Al-Adl provided a very good explanation saying that it had been abrogated, text and all. But the question that only occurred to me later was when was it abrogated but I didn't ask because it was too late. So when was this verse abrogated?

You see how it looks to a non-Muslim? I can accept that you believe that the Quran is unchanged and that is a perfectly respectable belief from where I sit. But I am not a Muslim and this looks odd to me. Now of course smarter people than me must have noticed this and there must be a sensible reason, but it still looks odd.

[------]

You see how it looks to a non-Muslim? I can accept that you believe that the Quran is unchanged and that is a perfectly respectable belief from where I sit.

No matter what anyone says HeiGou, the Muslims who have true faith will never belive its changed.

It says in the Qur'an that the disbelievers will try to find contradictions in the Qur'an as they will try and prove it is not "original", but they will get their punishment by Allah on the D.O.J

[HeiGou]

No matter what anyone says HeiGou, the Muslims who have true faith will never belive its changed.

It says in the Qur'an that the disbelievers will try to find contradictions in the Qur'an as they will try and prove it is not "original", but they will get their punishment by Allah on the D.O.J

I wouldn't want to change your faith in any way shape or form!

I like that quote from the Quran though. May I ask where it is from exactly? I think it is a verse I need to read.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

http://www.islamicboard.com/201311-post407.html

But the question that only occurred to me later was when was it abrogated but I didn't ask because it was too late. So when was this verse abrogated?

We don't have an exact date, but I'm not sure why this would matter.

[------]

NO SECTARIAN ARTICLES.

[Mohsin]

Salam bro Ansar

I read the link you posted, i'm confused.

Now what is doctrine of naskh?

The way i understood it was that the rule is simply abbroagted, but a verse reavealed fom God is never lost. I read the answer by Dr Naik.

From the hadith it implies there once existed a verse, that is no longer in the Qur'an anymore

[Abu Zakariya]

From the hadith it implies there once existed a verse, that is no longer in the Qur'an anymore

It's true, but it wasn't lost. It was removed from the Qur'an on purpose.

[------]

I'm lost :rollseyes Agen :(

[HeiGou]

We don't have an exact date, but I'm not sure why this would matter.

Because all the answers may be obvious to you, but they are not to me and the more I think about it, the more questions I have. For instance, if the Quran has existed since the beginning of time, which we all agree is an Islamic belief, did it contain the Rajam sura before Muhammed was born? If not, in what sense can the Rajam verse ever be said to be part of the Quran?

I am not asking serious questions because I haven't thought about all the implications yet, and I don't know about you, but this changes the way I think about the Quran.

[HeiGou]

It's true, but it wasn't lost. It was removed from the Qur'an on purpose.

On purpose? May I aks on whose purpose? And when?

[HeiGou]

I'm lost :rollseyes Agen :(

Well I am not the person to explain, but I'll do my best - you are warned that this may not be entirely correct. There is a hadith in the Sahih Bukhari that says that at one time Muslims had a verse that required married adulterers to be stoned to death. By the time Umar came to be Caliph, it was not written down and yet he insisted that it was Revealed. So it appears it is an abrogated verse. Most abrogated passages are different in that their meaning is voided, but the text remains - so the Quran has a number of passages whose meaning no long applies because they have been superceded by other passages. Yet they are still in the Quran. This one is the other way around - the text is gone (there is nothing in the Quran that says that adulterers should be stoned to death) but the meaning remains. It is all very interesting and complex but worth following because it is such an interesting insight into the process of Islamic law, texts and jurisprudence.

[Abu Omar]

Well there are different types of abrogation. In this case, the verse was removed but its ruling remained.

Yes some verses are still in the Qur'an but their rulings are abrogated. Why? Well Allaah (swt) wanted it to be so.

Islam builds both on the Qur'an, the Ahadith and the Sunnah. The fallacy missionaries often commit is that they try to force upon Muslims to only read the Qur'an and nothing else. This is because the Christians have fused their counterparts of the Qur'an (i.e Injeel), the Sirah, the Sunnah and the Ahadith into one book, whereas our are separated, yet they are all indispensable. One can't practice Islam without consulting both the Qur'an and the Ahadith/Sunnah. Often the Ahadith give the situation in which a verse or a passage was revealed, and often contribute with interesting information concerning the events narrated. Look for example the Tafsir of Surah Yusuf, you can for example see "Mujahid and Qatadah said..." concerning different verses.

[irsha]

What does "abrogated" mean?
I do not understand, were there parts of the koran removed? I heard somewhere that the prophet talked about 3 women doughters of Allah or something- is this true? Are they the "satanic verses" that that salmon rushdie talked about?, The story, I think- I am doing this from memory (but I haven't read his book, so I am not sure where I heard this)- is that the prophet talked about 3 daughhters of Allah, then realised he was misled by satan and took them out- have I got that right?

[nimrod]

I will tell you why, for me, (to a moral certainty) the Quran is not God’s word.

It disagrees with God’s earlier words and laws with out any explainable reason.

Four examples:

#1Adulters under the Biblical Law are to be stoned. Islam teaches that one of the reasons it was revealed was to lead people back to the Biblical Law.
#2 Folks having relations with animals are to be killed along with the animal. It is repeated several times in the Bible. Islam disagrees with God’s earlier word on that with no logical reason why.
The old saw about “well your Bible is just corrupted and the original didn’t say that falls flat on its face on that one.
#3 Maiming as a punishment is not seen in God’s word (other than in the narrow context of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth) before Islam.
#4 Islam records Jesus performing miracles as a child, if they were true why aren’t they recorded in the Bible? What logical arguement can be offered as the ones cited by Islam would have been removed by corrupt men, all the while these same men left all the rest in, both smaller miracles and larger miracles.

It makes no sense.

On a more gray scale, I don’t understand how if Jesus was just a prophet, and Islam had a better prophet, why don’t we see Muhammad’s apostles doing as Jesus’ apostles doing?

Where are all the blind and lame that were healed? Where their signs and wonders? Where are the multitudes that were miraculously fed.

Any arguement offered in favor of Islam being true can almost to the letter is offered as an arguement by the Mormons. I highly doubt you would find their arguements very convincing.

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

Irsha, abrogate means to void or to do away with, to remove or to end.

Thanks
Nimrod

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

What does "abrogated" mean?

You can read about the Qur'anic doctrine of abrogation under point 2 here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...e_Word_of_God/

I do not understand, were there parts of the koran removed? I heard somewhere that the prophet talked about 3 women doughters of Allah or something- is this true? Are they the "satanic verses" that that salmon rushdie talked about?, The story, I think- I am doing this from memory (but I haven't read his book, so I am not sure where I heard this)- is that the prophet talked about 3 daughhters of Allah, then realised he was misled by satan and took them out- have I got that right?

The 'satanic verses' allegation is a complete fabrication; read the details here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ic-verses.html

Regards

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Nimrod,
Thanks for your post.

It disagrees with God’s earlier words and laws with out any explainable reason.

This, in itself, does not prove anything. If scripture A disagrees with scripture B, A could be right and B wrong, B could be rigth and A wrong, or both could be wrong. It is the concept itself that must be examined.

#4 Islam records Jesus performing miracles as a child, if they were true why aren’t they recorded in the Bible?

Let us be specific - do you mean why they are not include in the four gospels?

On a more gray scale, I don’t understand how if Jesus was just a prophet, and Islam had a better prophet, why don’t we see Muhammad’s apostles doing as Jesus’ apostles doing?

Define an apostle first.

Any arguement offered in favor of Islam being true can almost to the letter is offered as an arguement by the Mormons

To make such a statement one would have to know the Islamic arguments. If you want to know mine, see the companion thread to this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-word-god.html

Regards

[nimrod]

Ansar Al-Adl, I assume there is a better answer on the thread you cited than the one you offered here seems.
I will read the thread you linked.

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

Ansar Al-'Adl, I read the thread you linked.
I didn't find my questions answered there. I have to admit I haven't read every link in your linked thread, maybe the answers are there.

As far as your question to my use of the word "Apostle". I am sure that as long as you have been debating with Non-Islamic folks, it would amaze me if you didn't understand what I posted and how I (a Christian) used the word, and its meaning.

Thanks
Nimrod

[Abu Omar]

I will tell you why, for me, (to a moral certainty) the Quran is not God’s word.

It disagrees with God’s earlier words and laws with out any explainable reason.

How do you know that these didn't get corrupted? The Tawrah (Old Testament) was compiled hundreds of years after the events took place. Indeed Genesis is said to have been written (or possibly collected from earlier sources) about 440 B.C. This leaves lots of space for legends to evolve and corruption to take place.

Four examples:

#1Adulters under the Biblical Law are to be stoned. Islam teaches that one of the reasons it was revealed was to lead people back to the Biblical Law.

Yes, and Islamic law says that a married adulterer are to be stoned, whereas a non-married adulterer are to get 100 lashes.

#2 Folks having relations with animals are to be killed along with the animal. It is repeated several times in the Bible. Islam disagrees with God’s earlier word on that with no logical reason why. The old saw about “well your Bible is just corrupted and the original didn’t say that falls flat on its face on that one.

I don't know what Islamic law says about those who commit such acts.

#3 Maiming as a punishment is not seen in God’s word (other than in the narrow context of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth) before Islam.

Which Islamic punishment do you refer to as maiming?

#4 Islam records Jesus performing miracles as a child, if they were true why aren’t they recorded in the Bible? What logical arguement can be offered as the ones cited by Islam would have been removed by corrupt men, all the while these same men left all the rest in, both smaller miracles and larger miracles.

Well that argument doesn't hold water. Practically what you are saying is that the Bible says so, and therefore it is so, and the Qur'an says something, therefore it contradicts the Bible and is wrong.

Perhaps the miracles of Isaa (aleyhi salaam) as a chid is reported in some of those numerous Bible books that were omitted from the "Canon"?

On a more gray scale, I don’t understand how if Jesus was just a prophet, and Islam had a better prophet, why don’t we see Muhammad’s apostles doing as Jesus’ apostles doing?

You mean miracles?

Well Islam has something called Karamat al-Awliya (miracles of the saints) which happened during the time of Sahabah, their succesors, and which are continuing to happen even today.

Where are all the blind and lame that were healed? Where their signs and wonders? Where are the multitudes that were miraculously fed.

Miracles won't make people believe, and I doubt anyone on this forum is a Muslim purely because of the reported miracles.

But of course miracles do have a meaning. They strengthen the Imaan (faith) of those who believe. But I doubt they would bring a person from kufr to Imaan.

You might as well see this:

Some of the Miracles of Muhammad(P)

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Nimrod,

Ansar Al-'Adl, I read the thread you linked.
I didn't find my questions answered there. I have to admit I haven't read every link in your linked thread, maybe the answers are there.

I'm not sure what you were expecting to find in the link. I posted the link because, as I said, it contain my arguments in favour of the Qur'an and Islam.

As far as your question to my use of the word "Apostle". I am sure that as long as you have been debating with Non-Islamic folks, it would amaze me if you didn't understand what I posted and how I (a Christian) used the word, and its meaning.

Well that is the thing we have to be clear on, because in Islam there is no Prophet who comes after Muhammad pbuh, so you have to explain what you would expect of an apostle. Someone appointed and inspired by God? There is no such person after Muhammad pbuh,

Regards

[hidaayah]

greetings
plz do read this..:
Is bible the God's word? By sh.Ahmed Deedat
http://jamaat.net/bible/BibleIntro.html

[nimrod]

Hello A Sister, Thanks for the reply. Can you offer specific reasoning’s to my posts?
The site you linked is sort of generic, Thanks.

Thanks
Nimrod

[Mohsin]

For instance, if the Quran has existed since the beginning of time, which we all agree is an Islamic belief, did it contain the Rajam sura before Muhammed was born? If not, in what sense can the Rajam verse ever be said to be part of the Quran?

Anyone know the answer to the question?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Sorry I didn't see this question,

For instance, if the Quran has existed since the beginning of time which we all agree is an Islamic belief, did it contain the Rajam sura before Muhammed was born? If not, in what sense can the Rajam verse ever be said to be part of the Quran?

Not just the Qur'an, it is all God's speech which is eternal and uncreated.
As Shaykh Abdul-Wahhab At-Turayri mentions:

A verse that was at one time part of the Qur’ân is still Allah’s eternal speech, but no longer constitutes what we regard as the Qur’an. This means that certain [fiqh] rulings about it have been abrogated – the rulings that apply to the verses of the Qur’ân. For instance, it can no longer be recited in prayer or as an act of worship.

As an aside, the Islamic belief concerning God's speech is something that some Christians like to distort. Dr. Ali Ataie responds to these distortions here:
http://voiceforislam.com/ChristianJe...LikeQuran.html

Regards

[afriend]

Why is the punishment for adultery different in the Bible from the Quran?

Peace Nimrod.

Well, this is the problem of the Bible, the Monks and priests etc. have changed the Bible to suit their way of living, it is because of this constant changing, we cannot trust the bible to be 'authentic'.

Regards.
Iqram.

[*noor]

The only true Words of God are in the Quran. For the Bible and the Torah have been changed many times. The Quran is the same as it was when Allah revealed it to Prophet Muhammad (pbub) through the Angel Gabriel. It stayed the same and will always stay as the true Words of Allah.
Oven 10 million Muslims around the world have memorized the Quran from cover to cover. There are no memorizers of the Bible or the Torah because the original texts don't exist anymore.

[Hussein radi]

Im Not Even Going To Read The Threat, Becuase I Know That The Quran Is God Words And God Is Perfect.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

You use as a reason for the differences cited, that "well men corrupted the Bible".

What logical argument can you defend as to the reason why the verses, concerning punishment for having relations with animals, would have been changed by men?

What would be their motivation for changing those verses?

I would love to discuss the preservation of the Bible, but this thread is for the Qur'an and any direct objections one may have against the Qur'an.

Where does the teaching of cutting off a hand and foot on opposite sides come from? The Bible says to make the thief repay 7 times the value of what was stolen. If the thief has nothing worth 7 times the value to pay for his crime, he is to work off the debt as a slave.
Is cutting off hands and feet not a teaching of Islam? Isn’t that using maiming as punishment?

Isn’t that punishment used for punishing stealing?

Yes, the amputation is a hadd punishment in Islam, but it is often quoted out of context and distorted. I've clarified this issue in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ariah-law.html

Since we both agree that the Bible contains God’s words (although we disagree about just how many of the words are from God) and since the Bible came first. Then Islam is left in the position off needing to reconcile what Islam teaches with what the Bible teaches or reasonably explain what Islam disagrees with in the Bible.

Not at all. Muslims believe that since the Bible has mixed the words of men with the words of God, God has sent the Qur'an as a criterion to distinguish between the two. What is in agreement with the Qur'an is accepted and whatever isn't is rejected.

Peace

ps. I've moved your post to a seperate thread so that it can be discussed in more detail:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ion-bible.html

[mirage41]

i would like to say we are sure about death, afterlife, allah. read the quran gain knowldge about islam you will find no contradictions in the quran, if you refer to any other holy book you will find contradictions. and the quran is the only holy book that has not been altered or changed. and has existed over 1400 years. if you read with an open mind you will know that it is the truth, if sincerely in your heart you are looking for the truth. god-willing.

You're sure about the Afterlife? Cool. Good for you. The Quran has hundreds of contradictions, it has been changed, and I have read the Quran with an open mind.

Buddy, look.... You're talking to a guy who one year ago was praying 5 salah a day (both fard and sunnah) fasted ramadan and six days more, I prayed the 20 rakah taraweeh, I almost got fired many times cuz I demanded pray time, I used be vice prez of my University's MSA, I used to eat halal only and spent my own money to go to the muslim stores and buy that stuff, I used to do halakahs and the occasional jummah khutbah, I used regularly attend salafi lectures in our city etc. I stopped believing Islam after I thoroughly read the Quran and more importantly the Hadiths. Ya dig?

[we need 2 unite]

i am sad 2 hear this but i disagree there isnt any contradictions in the quran and it has not been changed. the quran is the only holy book that has been learnt by hurt by million millions of people. so if it changed it would be made aware. no other holy book has been altered and there are many versions. but the quran there is only one. if you follow the quran and the sunnah you wont find a problem, inshallah allah will guide you to the strait path

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

You're sure about the Afterlife? Cool. Good for you. The Quran has hundreds of contradictions, it has been changed, and I have read the Quran with an open mind.

From the poor manner in which you've argued your case on Dhul-Qarnayn, I'm quite skeptical of any of your claims concerning your 'openmindedness' much less your Islamic knowledge. At any rate, I've written hundreds of articles refuting alleged internal contradictions in the Qur'an. Check them out:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...contradictions
We'll see how open-minded you really are.

[we need 2 unite]

so i made a mistake earlier post, i meant to say is highlighted in the bold
no other holy book has been learnt by hurt and has been altered and is not in there original form, there are many versions. but the quran there is only one.

[mirage41]

From the poor manner in which you've argued your case on Dhul-Qarnayn, I'm quite skeptical of any of your claims concerning your 'openmindedness' much less your Islamic knowledge. At any rate, I've written hundreds of articles refuting alleged internal contradictions in the Qur'an. Check them out:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...contradictions
We'll see how open-minded you really are.

Here's a link that documents the Quran's Contradictions:
---
Therefore the Quran is contradictional. Right?

You see just posting link and articles and telling me "go read up kafir" is pointless. Remember: Point-by-point and in your own words.

[we need 2 unite]

you are getting contraditions from a non-muslim website i believe, therefore they are just intepreted it with no understanding trying to forward their own views. i am saying it read it on your own ignore the website you jus given and interpret it on your own no ones else interpretation influencing you, if you are seeking for the truth and open-minded you will see that the quran is the truth. inshallah i will make duaa for you.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Here's a link that documents the Quran's Contradictions:
---
Therefore the Quran is contradictional. Right?

I know about that link because my articles are a RESPONSE to that link and many others!! I've already read that website and others. It's time you start reading the responses.

I challenge you to refute even a single one of my responses listed here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...contradictions

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Remember: Point-by-point and in your own words.

I wrote the articles. They are my own words:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...contradictions

Go ahead and read them. We'll see how openminded you are.

[thirdwatch512]

there are also scientific errors in the qu'ran..

"When he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring and found a people thereabout. We said: ‘O Dhul-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness"’ (Surah 18:86).

my point is, is we should use science to justify our religion. because all in all, every religion has mistakes in their books.. every one.. including the qu'ran.

[جوري]

there are also scientific errors in the qu'ran..

"When he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring and found a people thereabout. We said: ‘O Dhul-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness"’ (Surah 18:86).

my point is, is we should use science to justify our religion. because all in all, every religion has mistakes in their books.. every one.. including the qu'ran.

ha? I am sorry where is the error? Do you speak Arabic?

[thirdwatch512]

does the sun set in a murky pool? nope.

[جوري]

does the sun set in a murky pool? nope.

Glad you can answer your own Q's........ where was the roundness of the sun and earth when Al-Idirsi a Muslim scholar gave a globe depicting the earth to Roger the II only to have Roger crush it telling him the world is flat?
http://members.tripod.com/~wzzz/IDRISI.html

Also glad you are well versed in the Quran and all its verses ..... such as in verse 79,وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَاهَا {30...... "da'7a'ha" literally meaning God giving the earth its round shape....... does it say that in any other biblical book? I can tell you now no!...... also does it tell you in any other revelation this?
هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ {7}
[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Question is can you tell the difference between what is allegorical and what is a fundamental? since you are so well versed in Arabic, in the Quran and its scientific miracles?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

there are also scientific errors in the qu'ran..

"When he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring and found a people thereabout. We said: ‘O Dhul-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness"’ (Surah 18:86).

Hi Thirdwatch512,
These ignorant claims were debunked ages ago, even on this very forum they've already been answered. From post 7:

if it was, then you would think that allah would know a bit more about science.

All of your claims without exception have been refuted previously.
http://www.islamicboard.com/47842-post3.html

"Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.
He said: As to him who is unjust, we will chastise him, then shall he be returned to his Lord, and He will chastise him with an exemplary chastisement:
And as for him who believes and does good, he shall have goodly reward, and We will speak to him an easy word of Our command.
Then he followed (another) course.
Until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people to whom We had given no shelter from It"---18:86-90

As Muhammad Asad clarifies:

[And he marched westwards] till, when he came to the setting of the sun," it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea;" and nearby he found a people [given to every kind of wrongdoing].

Or: "abundance of water" - which, according to many philologists (cf. Taj al= Aras), is one of the meanings of `ayn (primarily denoting a "spring"). As for my rendering of the phrase "he found it (wajadaha) setting...", etc., as "it appeared to him that it was setting", see Razi and Ibn Kathir, both of whom point out that we have here a metaphor based on the common optical illusion of the sun's "disappearing into the sea"; and Razi explains this, correctly, by the fact that the earth is spherical. (It is interesting to note that, according to him, this explanation was already advanced in the - now lost - Qur'an-commentary of AN `All al-Jubba i, the famous Mu'tazili scholar who died in 303 H., which corresponds to 915 or 916 of the Christian era.)

Along the same lines:

The verses narrate part of the story of Zul-Qarnain. Being a great traveller Prophet Zul-Qarnain eventually, at sun set, arrived at a place where there were springs of vast murky waters. He found around it tribes of people, some righteous and some malign. The narration goes on to describe how Zul-Qarnain was given authority to rule over them as a just king. It narrates the version of events as he, Zul-Qarnain saw them – he saw the sun set in a murky water, nothing wrong with that. The second verse narrates that Zul-Qarnain turned another direction and travelled on until he saw the sun rise and it just so happens that he saw it rise on a people who were without shade. Again, a very simple narration, no claim of being scientific fact.

The critics who raise this issue and claim that the God of the Quran does not know the simple scientific that the sun never actually sets are barking up the wrong tree. The above verses in no way make the claim of being scientific fact as God sees it. We don’t see God making the claim that the sun sets into murky waters! Or rises on a certain group of people. We simply see God describing things as witnessed by Zul-Qarnain - "They ask thee concerning Zul-Qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story". The sun sets wherever you see it set. If you are on a beach you will see it set into the ocean. If you are on a hill, you will see it set behind the hill.

See also:
http://www.geocities.com/noorullahwe...l-qarnain.html

Regards

[D.Y.R#7XTRUST]

The Koran teaches us that there are seven heavens one above the other and that the stars are in the lower heaven, but the moon is in the midst of the seven heavens.

However, in reality the stars are much further away from the earth than the moon.

(Koran 67:3-5)
He Who created the seven heavens, one above the
other...And WE have adorned the lowest heaven with
lamps ...

(Koran 71:15-16)
Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens
one above the other, and made the moon a light in their
midst,and made the sun as a lamp?

(Koran 71:41:12)
And He completed the seven heavens in two
days and inspired in each heaven its command;
and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps,
and rendered it guarded...

Firstly, the Koran states that there are seven heavens in universe. Any sane person who has studied a bit of Modern Astronomy can tell that the conception of seven heavens was nothing but a result of Mohammed's absurd imagination. Muslim compliers try to cover up this serious flaw in the Koran by saying that the expression should be considered poetic rather than scientific.

Secondly, Koran claims that the stars are in a lower or even lowest heaven, while the moon is in a middle heaven. Even a child in primary standard knows today that the stars are much much further away from the earth than the moon.

MOD: SEE FORUM RULES ON LINKS.

[thirdwatch512]

Ansar.. I can totally how mohammad and his people would just go to a spring and watch the sun setting with people at the spring. However, look at this other verse from the qu'ran..

"Abu Dharr (one of Muhammad’s close companions) was with Muhammad during the sunset. Muhammad asked him: ‘Do you know, O Abu Dharr where this sets?’ He answered: ‘God and His apostle know better.’ Muhammad said: ‘It sets in a spring of slimy water"’ (3rd Edition, Volume 2 p. 743,1987).

that cleary says right there that they believe the sun sets in a spring of water.

now to PurestAmbrosia...

you said "can any other books tell you the sun is round?" Actually the Bible does.

"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth" (Isa. 40:22).
.. The Bible is saying the Earth is round. compare it to this islamic verse..

"Will they not regard the camels how they are created...and the Earth how it is spread?" 88:17-20

how it is spread is insisting the earth is flat.. or according to some.

[جوري]

I don't think you speak or understand arabic.. nor have you taken the time to read the replies given you........ Again I quoted you a verse stating "wal'ard ba'3d Zhalika da7'ha" meanng given the earth its round shape (da'7a'ha) being the same word used in every verse to describe any orbit earth sun or otherwise... unless you know something else that us native Arabic speakers and Muslims don't know?...Also enlighten us as to how "Dhul quarnyen" is prophet Mohammed PBUH and his people? do you know anything at all of Gog and Magog? well Dhul qarnyen is the one who built the wall to keep them there ages before prophet Mohammed PBUH... if you don't know the first thing about the verse, what it entails, whom it is about or the Quran, the hadiths of prophet Mohammed, then please don't come struting lack of knowledge and of your linguistic skills, which obviousely you don't possess unless you feel like being exceptionally cavalier and don't mind being publically humiliated...... I can quote you tons of biblial verses from the bible wrought with error
Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)
"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

just to name a few .... but that is of no interest to me ... And again I also quoted you a verse from chapter (sura) III stating that there are decisive verses (fundamental) verses and there is that which is allegorical... why not read before you post, as I tire of repeating myself....... I can't even be bothered with the other hateful novice......
There is a search option here where you can familiarize yourself with an argument (conjectures/refutations) so you can come better armed........ Also if you are going to quote a page and a volume do mention the book you got it from as well as the author, etc etc... to save yourself from a terrible embarrassment.............
peace

[Umar001]

Peace be upon those who follow guidance.
I am just curious, I do not speak arabic, so I will leave the proper refuting to others. But I will just say:

The Koran teaches us that there are seven heavens one above the other and that the stars are in the lower heaven, but the moon is in the midst of the seven heavens.

However, in reality the stars are much further away from the earth than the moon.

(Koran 67:3-5)
He Who created the seven heavens, one above the
other...And WE have adorned the lowest heaven with
lamps ...

(Koran 71:15-16)
Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens
one above the other, and made the moon a light in their
midst,and made the sun as a lamp?

(Koran 71:41:12)
And He completed the seven heavens in two
days and inspired in each heaven its command;
and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps,
and rendered it guarded...

Firstly, the Koran states that there are seven heavens in universe. Any sane person who has studied a bit of Modern Astronomy can tell that the conception of seven heavens was nothing but a result of Mohammed's absurd imagination. Muslim compliers try to cover up this serious flaw in the Koran by saying that the expression should be considered poetic rather than scientific.

Secondly, Koran claims that the stars are in a lower or even lowest heaven, while the moon is in a middle heaven. Even a child in primary standard knows today that the stars are much much further away from the earth than the moon.


http://www.moncton.net/forum/thread/56765.aspx

What does in the Midst mean? Please enlighten me, if you will other translations say:

YUSUFALI: "'And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?

PICKTHAL: And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?

SHAKIR: And made the moon therein a light, and made the sun a lamp?

Please show me which one specifies in which heaven the moon is in?

"Will they not regard the camels how they are created...and the Earth how it is spread?" 88:17-20

how it is spread is insisting the earth is flat.. or according to some.

Have you considered other verses?

071.019
YUSUFALI: "'And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out),
PICKTHAL: And Allah hath made the earth a wide expanse for you
SHAKIR: And Allah has made for you the earth a wide expanse,

Vast and spread out, but read on,

071.020
YUSUFALI: "'That ye may go about therein, in spacious roads.'"
PICKTHAL: That ye may thread the valley-ways thereof.
SHAKIR: That you may go along therein in wide paths.

The earth on the surface is spread out, is it not? How are we inhabitating it.

Further More, look at what Ambrosia posted, read the arabic of that verse.

To move on:

Daniel 4

11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

How could this happen in our world? If a tree in England kept growing it still would not be seen by the opposite side of the earth.

Matthew 4:8

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Even if we imagine that Jesus had the best view, from the highest mountain he would not be able to see the side opposite.

Unless in both cases they thought the world to be FLAT.
As for the circle, simple, the earth is a Flat Circle, like a coin, Biblically speaking.

Peace be upon the Prophets and Messengers from Aadam to Muhammad, including Moses, David, Solomon, John and Jesus.

[جوري]

you know I am just going to add one thing to the above completely unrelated but in a very strong way is......... in the Quran there is a verse describing this very image

verse Surah 55:37

فَإِذَا انشَقَّتِ السَّمَاء فَكَانَتْ وَرْدَةً كَالدِّهَانِ {37}

[Shakir 55:37] And when the heaven is rent asunder, and then becomes red like red hide.
[Yusufali 55:37] When the sky is rent asunder, and it becomes red like ointment:
[Pickthal 55:37] And when the heaven splitteth asunder and becometh rosy like red hide -
The word Warda وَرْدَةً In Arabic literally means rose... yet, you don't see any of the translators using the word rose .. They tried their best... considering... even Pickthall was a British a (WASP) by all standards and made a considerable effort to learn Arabic for which he should be commended but it doesn't convey to others the true meaning of the verses... so it bewilders me how people can grab something from a third source, most likely written by those who wish to misguide others on hate website without truly investigating the meaning... looking to see if something it literal or if it allegorical, or metaphorical... suddenly every one is an expert?... When there are those of us who dedicate years to learning and still know we are ignorant. My colleague who is an imam always speaks to me of how ignorant he is and he is one of the most knowledgeable people I know... so how is it that these non-arabic speaking non-muslims are suddenly quite the connoisseurs?
peace!

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

true! i couldnt rep u so ill jus say it =)

[جوري]

true! i couldnt rep u so ill jus say it =)

:sl:
Thank you sis....... l:D
:w:

[thirdwatch512]

My colleague who is an imam always speaks to me of how ignorant he is and he is one of the most knowledgeable people I know... so how is it that these non-arabic speaking non-muslims are suddenly quite the connoisseurs?
peace!

well if you ever go against the Bible, I hope you know Hebrew and Greek first. :P

i just read what the versus say from the qu'ran software i have in english.. and i actually have this free software called "Ocean" and it has several translations of the qu'ran in english.. prolly 4 or 5. and they all say the same thing.. the sun sets in a murky pool. and i don't know arabic, and i'm not muslim, but it clearly says that.

[جوري]

well if you ever go against the Bible, I hope you know Hebrew and Greek first. :P

i just read what the versus say from the qu'ran software i have in english.. and i actually have this free software called "Ocean" and it has several translations of the qu'ran in english.. prolly 4 or 5. and they all say the same thing.. the sun sets in a murky pool. and i don't know arabic, and i'm not muslim, but it clearly says that.

Bible was written in Aramaic... very close to Arabic... Yes I have read it... The scriptures were given to you from God before mankind corrupted it.... and we make no distinction between any of his messengers......teach yourself or ask please of what/ when/ and why a verse was revealed before making claims.... Just a few weeks ago I had to consult with someone on the meaning of a verse that I didn't understand. And Arabic is my native tongue........ I can't keep repeating this ad infinitum with every post it is getting old.......

آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللّهِ وَمَلآئِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ وَقَالُواْ سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ {285}

[Shakir 2:285] The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.
[Yusufali 2:285] The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
[Pickthal 2:285] The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.
peace!

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

From Br.lolwhatever:

thirdwatch512, please watch Zakir Naik's debate with William Cambell who brought up the sunset as an error:

http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayF...x?TitleID=2054

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcKZn...elated&search=

In short, that's such an obvious piece of imagery!!! sunset... everyone knows the sun doesn't set, but it's a metaphor!!! lol that means all the newspapers and media centers in the world are guilty of scientific inaccuracy for using the word sunset!!!

[جوري]

exactly like the jacques brell poem that speaks of the sun setting on the edge of the horizon... what amazes me is I quoted for him from the Quran that there are allegorical verses... he either doesn't understand what that means... or just simply hasn't read any replies........

هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ {7}

[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
sheesh

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Oh true i never thought of that....lol

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings,

The Koran teaches us that there are seven heavens one above the other and that the stars are in the lower heaven, but the moon is in the midst of the seven heavens.

The critic [since they are not your own words] initiates the argument by projecting their own interpretations and assumptions on to the Qur'an. The Qur'an says that As-Samâ Ad-Dunya (cosmic/worldly/lowest heaven/sky) is adorned with stars. It says the moon is in the seven heavens (fîhinna lit. means in them). The word 'midst' is not in the Qur'an but is a word some translators chose to convey a certain meaning. So when we look at what the Qur'anic verses actually say, there is nothing problematic about them at all. It is only after the critic subjects them to dozens of mutually conflicting assumptions that they are able to develop such an issue.

Firstly, the Koran states that there are seven heavens in universe. Any sane person who has studied a bit of Modern Astronomy can tell that the conception of seven

Rubbish. Modern astronomy and all empirical science for that matter is concerned with the investigation of our observable universe. By definition, such statements are beyond the scope of scientific inquiry. There is no experiment one can develop to determine wheter there exist heavens or dimensions beyond our observable universe.

The other assumptions were debunked above.

Hello,

However, look at this other verse from the qu'ran..

"Abu Dharr (one of Muhammad’s close companions) was with Muhammad during the sunset. Muhammad asked him: ‘Do you know, O Abu Dharr where this sets?’ He answered: ‘God and His apostle know better.’ Muhammad said: ‘It sets in a spring of slimy water"’ (3rd Edition, Volume 2 p. 743,1987).

You've just openly exposed your ABSOLUTE IGNORANCE on the most basic fundamentals of Islam!! You go to an anti-islamic website and copy a quote without even the slightest clue as to what source you are quoting!! I can't believe anyone can be so obtuse as to pick out such a random quote and then claim that it is a verse from the Qur'an!! Do you know where that quote is from? You wrote "3rd edition, volume 2 p. 743, 1987" but do you even understand what this is? This is a quote from the exegesis of ZAMAKHSHARI!! It is not a verse from the Qur'an, not a sahih hadith, but a tradition quoted amongst many unauthenticated traditions in an exegetical work that has a weak standing in everything other than lingusitics. So the value of the quote you provide: ZERO.

So we see a major problem in your attempts to dialogue if you are just going to go fish out random texts and you have no stinking clue what these quotes mean, where they are from or how to use them. If you want to discuss with me we need INTEGRITY and SINCERITY. You need to question honestly with the intention of learning so that you avoid making such foolish blunders.

Regards

[thirdwatch512]

So we see a major problem in your attempts to dialogue if you are just going to go fish out random texts and you have no stinking clue what these quotes mean, where they are from or how to use them. If you want to discuss with me we need INTEGRITY and SINCERITY. You need to question honestly with the intention of learning so that you avoid making such foolish blunders.

Regards

it's from the hadith though.. and i put qu'ran because i was looking for another verse in the qu'ran that talked about it, but i couldn't find it so i put that.

and please do not get all rude and offensive. i know it hurts for people to critisize your religion, but try to keep an open mind!

and also, here's a contradiction within the qu'ran..

which was built first, heaven or earth according to the qu'ran?

-Heaven

Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. And after that He spread the earth....

-Earth
Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days ... Then turned He to the heaven ... Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days ....

He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens.

MOD: PLEASE DISCUSS ISSUES ONE AT A TIME. PASTING A LIST OF ALLEGATIONS IS A CLEAR COP-OUT FROM DEBATE.

[`Abd al-Azeez]

:sl:

Since br. Ansar is not here, I guess I'll have to take his place and use his own article to reconcile the so-called "contradictions" :D




Here's the link:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ons-quran.html

:W:

[جوري]

:sl:

Since br. Ansar is not here, I guess I'll have to take his place and use his own article to reconcile the so-called "contradictions" :D




Here's the link:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ons-quran.html

:W:

:sl:
Don't even bother... every few months you get one of those... if he wanted to learn he would use the search option read thoroughly then question... but it is clear that is not his intention...I consider it a sincere waste of time to reply...........
:w:

[dougmusr]

This is very different from the Bible which seems to be very interested in recounting history, and seems very difficult to attribute some of its tales to God (see the language used in Ezekiel 23).

What specifically is it about Ezekiel 23 that you find troublesome?

[Umar001]

I think

20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

[dougmusr]

I think

20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Verse 4 makes it clear that this is an allegorical passage about Israel. The Bible indicates that Israel was judged for turning her back on God, and ultimately was carried into exile. In fact, God warned Israel through Moses in Deuteronomy 28 of the cost of disobedience years before it happened.

[Umar001]

Verse 4 makes it clear that this is an allegorical passage about Israel. The Bible indicates that Israel was judged for turning her back on God, and ultimately was carried into exile. In fact, God warned Israel through Moses in Deuteronomy 28 of the cost of disobedience years before it happened.

Okey, so those werent rael women, yet G-d had to explain it to us that these metaphorical women went after men with, u know, size of donkeys and the rest of horse, but in reality this was Israel prostituting itself with such figures?

[dougmusr]

Okey, so those werent rael women, yet G-d had to explain it to us that these metaphorical women went after men with, u know, size of donkeys and the rest of horse, but in reality this was Israel prostituting itself with such figures?

While the language is not what I would have chosen, I do not claim to be a prophet. If God told Ezekiel to relay the message in those words, he was bound to do it. God frequently referred to idolotry as adultery with other gods. This makes sense as we are to have an intimate personal relationship with one God, just as we are to have and intimitate personal relationship with one spouse. As to the beastiality aspect of this passage, if that is what you are inferring, I'm sure it happened just as it happens today, but I don't think this is the meaning of the passage.

Take Jeremiah:

Jer 5:8 They were like well-fed lusty stallions; Every one neighed after his neighbor's wife. 9 Shall I not punish them for these things?" says the LORD.
"And shall I not avenge Myself on such a nation as this?

[Umar001]

While the language is not what I would have chosen, I do not claim to be a prophet. If God told Ezekiel to relay the message in those words, he was bound to do it. God frequently referred to idolotry as adultery with other gods. This makes sense as we are to have an intimate personal relationship with one God, just as we are to have and intimitate personal relationship with one spouse. As to the beastiality aspect of this passage, if that is what you are inferring, I'm sure it happened just as it happens today, but I don't think this is the meaning of the passage.

Take Jeremiah:

Jer 5:8 They were like well-fed lusty stallions; Every one neighed after his neighbor's wife. 9 Shall I not punish them for these things?" says the LORD.
"And shall I not avenge Myself on such a nation as this?

Okey dokes, well I think thats the passage the other poster had a problem with maybe you can ask why she/he had a problem. :) thank you for your patience.

[جوري]

Why would God warn Israel? when Israel was (Jacob) and God loved him........He was by all standards a good man and a prophet....

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

it's from the hadith though.. and i put qu'ran because i was looking for another verse in the qu'ran that talked about it, but i couldn't find it so i put that.

Good grief, I strongly advise you to refrain from making such blunders in the future as to confuse unauthenticated exegetical texts for qur'anic verses. It is only reflects negatively on yourself, indicating that you will go to whatever lengths to try to copy attacks againts another religion, even if you don't have the slightest clue as to what's being discussed or how reliable the sources are. Such an attitude is clearly not conducive to learning and fostering understanding.

and please do not get all rude and offensive. i know it hurts for people to critisize your religion, but try to keep an open mind!

Actually it doesn't hurt me at all but it does hurt you. I have already been so heavily involved in examining and debunking anti-islamic allegations that I have not heard a new allegation for years. I am willing to entertain any criticism one has against Islam so long as we can maintain two academic standards: objectivity and civility. So far no one has been able to meet my challenge to bring a viable allegation.Read through this thread, read through the forum. You will find hundreds if not thosuands of allegations debunked againm and again.

But the pinnacle of hypocrisy is for you to bluster on being open-minded as a prelude to pasting a list of allegations on Qur'anic contradictions! As soon as someone pastes such a list, you know they are not interested in answers or they would have raised the issues one at a time to facilitate the responses from their opponent.

and also, here's a contradiction within the qu'ran..

Maybe you should know that I've written over fifty articles debunking alleged internal contradictions in the Qur'an. I have already heard, entertained, analysed and refuted EVERY SINGLE one of the allegations you raised. Watch.

which was built first, heaven or earth according to the qu'ran?

Meet my refutation:

The allegation is as follows:

Heavens or Earth? Which was created first? First earth and then heaven [2:29], heaven and after that earth [79:27-30].
Verses in question:

2:29 It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Thumma (Then/Moreover) His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

And

79:27-30. What! Are ye the more difficult to create or the heaven (above)? ((Allah)) hath constructed it:On high hath He raised its canopy, and He hath equally ordered it. Its night doth He endow with darkness, and its splendour doth He bring out (with light). And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse)

1. At first sight, it may seem as though these verses contradict because 2:29 mentions the earth before the heavens, while in 79:27-21, the situation is reversed. However, on closer inspection, we discover some significant differences:

A) 2:29 mentions the development of the heavens into seven layers, not their initial creation which is described in 79:27-31.
B) 2:29 describes the creation of the earth and its features while 79:27-31 only descibres the spreading of the earth

Thus, based on the two verses we know two things:

1. The creation of the earth preceded the formation of the heavens into seven layers
2. The creation of the heavens preceded the 'spreading' of the earth.

And a third point is logically concluded from the above:

3. The creation of the heavens preceded their formation into seven layers

However, it is not know from the verses whether the creation of the heavens preceded the creation of the earth or vice versa, or whether they occured simultaneously. Some Qur'anic commentators took one view while others took another. What we do know is that the heavens and the earth were created and then subsequently the earth was spread and the heavens formed into seven layers. This interpretation is supported by the classical commentaries of the Qur'an. As Imaam Abu Abdullah Al-Qurtubi (d. 1273CE) states in his monumental Al-Jaami` le Ahkaam al-Qur'an when giving his opinion on the Qur'anic description:

I believe that what Qatada said is sound Allah willing: that Allah first created the smoke of heaven and then created the earth and directed Himself to heaven, which was smoke and [He] arranged it and then He smoothed out the earth. (Tafsir Al-Qurtubi Classical Commentary of the Holy Qur'an, Dar Al-Taqwa Ltd. 2003, vol. 1, p.200, emphasis added)

Imaam Ibn Kathir Ad-Damishqi (d. 1372CE) also distinguishes between the different stages in his renowned Tafsir Al-Qur'an Al-Azim, while presenting a slightly different view:

It already has been mentioned previously in [the Tafsir of] Surat Ha Mim As-Sajdah that the earth was created before the heaven was created, but it was only spread out after the creation of the heaven. This means that He brought out what was in it with a forceful action. This is the meaning of what was said by Ibn Abbas and others, and it was the explanation preferred by Ibn Jarir [At-Tabari (d. 923CE)] (fn. At-Tabari 24:208). (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Abridged, Darussalam Publishers & &nbsp;Distributors, 2000, vol. 10, p. 350, emphasis added)

Thus, the commentators are agreed that the difference in verse 2:29 and verses 79:27-31 relates to the different stages in the creation of the heavens and the earth, with the earth's 'spreading' occurring after the creation of the heavens and the development of the heavens occurring after the creation of the earth. The commentators only differ regarding the creation of the earth preceding the creation of the heavens, or vice versa, or if they were both created simultaneously.

Scientific research describes the creation and formation of the earth in the following stages:

Differentiation in the first few 100's of millions of years led to the formation of the core and the mantle and a crust, and initiated the escape of gases from the moving interior that eventually led to the formation of the atmosphere and oceans.
The earliest Earth was probably an unsorted conglomeration, mostly of silicon compounds, iron and magnesium oxides, and smaller amounts of all the natural elements. It became increasingly hotter as the protoplanet grew.
...After loss of the hydrogen, helium and other hydrogen-containing gases from early Earth due to the Sun's radiation, primitive Earth was devoid of an atmosphere. The first atmosphere was formed by outgassing of gases trapped in the interior of the early Earth, which still goes on today in volcanoes.
For the Early Earth, extreme volcanism occurred during differentiation, when massive heating and fluid-like motion in the mantle occurred. It is likely that the bulk of the atmosphere was derived from degassing early in the Earth's history.
...Lava flowing from the partially molten interior spread over the surface and solidified to form a thin crust. This crust would have melted and solidified repeatedly, with the lighter compounds moving to the surface. This is called differentiation. Weathering by rainfall broke up and altered the rocks. The end result of these processes was a continental land mass, which would have grown over time. The most popular theory limits the growth of continents to the first two billion years of the Earth. (SOURCE)

The above description informs us that the earth was initially one mass and through differentiation and volcanic out-gassing, the early atmosphere formed. Then, cooling of the earth resulted in the formation of land mass.
These descriptions concur with the Qur'anic desciption that the earth (2:29) and the heaven (79:27) were created and were originally one mass and then seperated (verse 21:30), the heavens were then developed into seven layers (verse 2:29) and the earth's crust was later spread out (79:30). The last description may be a reference to the cooling of the earth's crust, or it may be a reference to continental drift.
Thus, we find that the Qur'an does not contradict itself here, but instead contains accurate details regarding the formation of the earth in the stages.

2. According to an alternative interpretation, verse 2:29 is rendered as follows:

He is the One who created for you all that's inside earth (Matter), then turned to the sky and perfected seven universes therein, and He is fully aware of all things.

Therefore, verse 2:29 is taken to refer to the creation of the universe and it is not the creation of the earth being described here, but rather what is in the earth, or matter. And verse 79:30 is referring to the spreading of the earth, which has been defined before.

3. A third explanation argues on the understanding of thumma, which does not always indicate sequential order. The meaning of Thumma is explained very well by Moiz Amjad in his article entitled The Meaning of "Thumma" & "Yawm". Therefore, when verse 2:29 says that Allah created the earth and thumma He turned to the heavens, this could also be read as "Furthermore He turned to the heavens" which does not necessarily imply that the creation of the heavens is after the creation of earth. Critics argue that when it says God turned towards the heaven, this implies a sequential act. But this is not entirely true, as God could have turned to the heaven at any point in the past, not necessarily after the creation of the heavens. This point is emphasized in the classical tafsirs as well. Imaam Qurtubi writes:

In His words "then directed", the word "then" is simply a narrative aid and does not imply any time sequence in the matetrs referred to. (Tafsir Al-Qurtubi Classical Commentary of the Holy Qur'an, Dar Al-Taqwa Ltd. 2003, vol. 1, p.199)

Similarly, Imaam Ibn Kathir writes:

It is said that "Then" in the Ayah (2:29) relates only to the order of reciting the information being given, it does not relate to the order that the events being mentioned took place, this was reported from Ibn 'Abbas by 'Ali bin Abi Talhah. (fn. At-Tabari 1:437). (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Abridged, &nbsp;Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, 2000, vol. 1, p. 180)

Thus, this explanation is not in conflict with the traditional understanding of the earier Muslims.

From the above points, it should be clear that these verses do not in any way constitute a contradiction.

Let's see how open-minded you are; here are the links to the other articles:

• The Inheritance Law
• The Number of Angels Speaking to Mary
• On The Length of God's Days
• The Number of Gardens in Paradise
• The Number of Groups on Judgement Day
• Who Takes the Soul at Death
• The Number of Wings on Angels
• The Number of Days Taken to Create the Universe
• Was Creation Quick or Slow
• Which was created first: the Heavens or Earth ?
• 'Called Together' or 'Ripped Apart'?
• The Time Taken to Destroy the 'Aad
• What was Man Created from?
• Where is Allah
• On the Origin of Calamity
• The Mercy and Guidance of Allah
• Will there be Inquiry in Paradise?
• Are Angels Protectors
• Is Everything Devoutly Obedient to Allah?
• Does Allah Forgive Shirk?
• Did Abraham Commit Shirk?
• Worshipping the Same or a Different God?
• The Sequence of Events in the Calf-worship of the Children of Israel
• Guilt of Aaron in the Calf-Worship?
• Was Jonah Cast on the Desert Shore?
• The Reference to the Injeel at the time of Moses
• Concerning the Food for the Inhabitants of Hell
• Forgiveness for Slander of Chaste Women
• How the Disbelievers will Recieve their Record on Judgement Day
• Can Angels Disobey - the case of Iblis
• Can Angels Disobey - the case of Harut and Marut
• Angel Gabriel and the 'Holy Spirit'
• Confirming the Old Revelation or Substituting it?
• The Qur'an's Pure Arabic and the Presence of Foreign Words
• The Qur'an Being Contained in Previous Revelations
• Lot's Wife Being Called 'an Old Woman'
• The Response of Lot's Nation
• Is the Punishment and Mercy of Allah Arbitrary?
• The Fate of Noah's Family
• Was Noah Driven Out?
• Regarding Pharoah's Fate
• Pharoah's Repentance
• Abrogation and the Unalterable Word of God
• Whom Allah Guides
• Salvation for Non-Muslims

Regards

[Umar001]

Mash'Allah, I was going to say something like this, wel if I had the knowledge lol

[stannis]

How does quoting the Quran prove it is the word of God? I do not mean that in a hostile way.

No quotes please, just answers.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

How does quoting the Quran prove it is the word of God? I do not mean that in a hostile way.

No quotes please, just answers.

Because it, in and of itself refutes all the arguements brought up against it. :uhwhat

[Umar001]

Hi, :)

How does quoting the Quran prove it is the word of God? I do not mean that in a hostile way.

No quotes please, just answers.

People might quote the Qu'ran alongside an arguement, for example someone says "The QU'ran has accurate scientific statements, look..." And then the person quotes the Qu'ran, is that wrong?

[stannis]

Yes, but quotes, selectively chosen, can be used to stifle debate.

What I want to know is the principal reasoning behind presenting a religious book as an absolute truth, when it cannot be conclusively proven?

[جوري]

Yup! in fact that is what Dr. Gary Miller (a former Priest) did when he wrote his book enatiling all the miracles in the Quran--
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/w...p?articleid=90

[جوري]

Yes, but quotes, selectively chosen, can be used to stifle debate.

What I want to know is the principal reasoning behind presenting a religious book as an absolute truth, when it cannot be conclusively proven?

Greetings
I think you'd have to read any book before concluding whether or not it is an absolute truth?
How would you know if anything written in Robbins text book of pathological disease is correct, unless you read it and compare to real pathological cases and slides?
How would you know for instance that when the Quran addresses a bee worker in the female form -- that it is in fact female, unless you investigate with some research-- a fact might I add that wasn't even known in Shakespearean time ... let alone the time of prophet Mohammed (PBUH)-- that is one of many examples that are addressed in Dr. Miller's book.
So I think to answer your question-- You'd have to read the book.....
peace!

[stannis]

The ancient Greeks also discovered a great many things about geometry, and other sciences.

Does that mean the pantheon which inspired their religion was absolutely correct?

[جوري]

Greetings
Is that a rhetorical question? I don't see what Geometry has to do with ancient temples or pagan rituals?....... if you can make the connection for me I'd appreciate it.
The Quran isn't a book of science... It is a book of revelations (scriptures)--- and addresses all facets of life the after life -- including those for man to reflect on creation and his surroundings.......
Peace

[stannis]

Well, geometry helped build the temples, surely :okay:

It is interesting that you say the Quran isn't a book of science, but primarily a scripture - that is true isn't it? What do other Muslims think about this?

[جوري]

Well, geometry helped build the temples, surely :okay:

It is interesting that you say the Quran isn't a book of science, but primarily a scripture - that is true isn't it? What do other Muslims think about this?

Greetings
well, I can't speak for all Muslims... but I am sure they concur!
peace!

[- Qatada -]

The Qur'an is a book of guidance, wisdom, a book of truth, which leads man out of darkness (of disbelief, polytheism, sin) into the light (of pure monotheism, enjoining the good and forbidding the evil - distinguishing between the right and the wrong.)

It is the best recitation in the most eloquent of languages (arabic), and it was revealed to the best of mankind - to the messenger of Allaah - Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) over a period of 23years. He didn't know how to read or write, an illiterate prophet, who came to an illiterate nation.. this nation would go through a dramatic transformation, and within a century - the message had spread in different areas of the world, while only beginning in the two towns of Makkah & Medinah.



This message which came down to one man, to one nation - can be applied to any nation, can be applied in any century (starting from 1427years ago.) Yet it still will not be outdated. This message was what prospered the cities of Spain - Al Andalus, of North Africa, of Iraq [once the center of knowledge in the whole world], if anyone can't believe this - they can even look into the history for themselves.


Islamic History
http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12



Now the muslims have turned away from this book - the true guidance, and the prophetic way - they have preferred this life over the hereafter.

Allaah does not love disbelief for His servants, He loves that they turn to Him so He may bless them in this world and the hereafter. And what time is better to turn to your Creator than at times of hardship?


Once we turn back to the book of Allaah, and the ways of His messenger (peace be upon him) - Allaah will remove our humiliation and replace that with respect, and honor. This will only occur when we turn back to Allaah's guidance.

In the end, the victory is for the believers and those who submit to the Creator - Allaah the Possesor of Honor & Majesty, The Most Beneficial, the Most Merciful.



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Stannis :)

This thread has a companion thread here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-word-god.html

Peace.

[stannis]

Thank you Ansar, I was wondering if such a thread existed.