Aggressors of Islam

[BertKarsam]

Why is it that muslim countries can't live peacefully with their neighbours? Why does war and suppression to this day ALWAYS follow in the footsteps of Islam? Yes, I know that some of you preach what you believe to be the truth (Islam is a peacefull religion) but for me, when muslims are unable to live as they preach, the theory of being peacefull is just that. Theory. Do you muslims ever consider what kind of religion you are following or are you just blind followers?

Look at the history of Islam, and even the history of Muhammad:
In 624, Mohammed led a raid for booty and plunder against a Meccan caravan, killing 70 Meccans for mere material gain. Between 630 A.D. and the death of Mohammed in 632 A.D., Muslims -- on at least one occasion led by Mohammed -- had conquered the bulk of western Arabia and southern Palestine through approximately a dozen separate invasions and bloody conquests. These conquests were in large part "Holy wars". After Mohammed's death in 632, the new Muslim caliph, Abu Bakr, launched Islam into almost 1,500 years of continual imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of others through invasion and war, a role Islam continues to this very day.

The Muslim wars of imperialist conquest have been launched for almost 1,500 years against hundreds of nations, over millions of square miles (significantly larger than the British Empire at its peak). The lust for Muslim imperialist conquest stretched from southern France to the Philippines, from Austria to Nigeria, and from central Asia to New Guinea. This is the classic definition of imperialism -- "the policy and practice of seeking to dominate the economic and political affairs of weaker countries."

You may defend your belief by stating that this was a long time ago, and that also chrisians and other religions were involved in battles and warfare. Yes, that is true. But I believe that if I had the time, I could show that the Muslims, in their western imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquests, killed two to three times as many Christians as the Christians killed Muslims in all of the Crusades combined.

How about today? Let's have a brief look at only the last century:

1. Muslim Turkey has expelled approximately 1,500,000 Greeks from its empire in the east and replaced them with Turks. They have massacred approximately 2 million Armenians and replaced them with Turks in the west.

2. Muslim Turkey has invaded and occupied northern Cyprus, displacing the Greeks living there.

3. Muslim northern Sudan has conquered much of southern Sudan, literally enslaving its Christian and pagan population.

4. Indonesian imperialism has occupied all of non-Islamic western New Guinea and incorporated it into Indonesia.

5. Muslim Indonesia has invaded and conquered Christian East Timor with horrible loss of life.

6. This very day, Muslim Indonesia is attempting to destroy Christianity in what used to be called the Celebes.

7. A half-dozen Arab countries have fought two to four wars (depending how you count) in an attempt to destroy Israel and occupy its territory, and is currently continuing the attempt this very day with the publicly voted consent of 55 of the world's 57 Islamic nations.

8. For no good reason, Muslim Libya has blown up western aircraft, killing many civilians. They even confessed to this sin and payed several million dollars to the victims of this brutal act.

9. Muslim Iraq, in an imperialist war of aggression, invaded and occupied Muslim Kuwait.

10. Muslim Iraq, in an imperialist act of aggression, invaded Muslim Iran with a resulting (some estimates say) death of 2 million people.

11. Muslim Albania, this very minute, is attempting to enlarge its borders at Christian Macedonia's expense.

12. Muslim Northern Nigeria has been (and is currently) an aggressor against the Christian south.

13. Muslims expelled approximately 800,000 Jews from their homelands between 1947 and 1955.

14. During Jordan's occupation of the West Bank, the kingdom undertook an unsuccessful attempt to make Jerusalem a Muslim city by forcing out approximately 10,000 Christian inhabitants.

15. Pakistand and India have been fighting for decades, Pakistan trying to incorporate Kashmir into Pakistan.

Yes, I know that the reverse has been true. For example, Christian Serbia entered and massacred Bosnian Muslims. The western response was instructive. The west sent troops to protect the Muslims. Serbia gave up its leader to be tried for the crime by an international panel. Will Indonesia do the same with respect to Timor? Or Sudan with respect to southern Sudan? Let's face it: Never.

Question: What is the title of the shortest book in the world? Answer: "The list of Muslim nations who have risked the lives of their soldiers to protect (as with the U.S. protection of Muslims in Kuwait) Christian or Jewish citizens from Muslim imperialism."

Yes, I also know that in the 20th century the west fought two of the bloodiest wars in history. But in the past more than 55 years, the west has developed methods that have led to peace among the west, and all but totally ended western imperialism and colonialism. With former colonies having a large majority in the UN, and the example of the west before it, Islam has continued its imperialist, colonial, bloody wars unabated.

Jesus said, look at the fruits of the tree. The fruits of Islam? Supression and hatred. Look at the ongoing debate regarding the cartoons of Muhammad. Some muslims are more than willing to kill (and die...) to get their revenge. The killing of director Theo Van Gogh in Netherland some time ago was clearly a murder done in the name of Islam. His crime? He made a film about violence against women in Islamic societies, a film that included stories told by a woman from Somalia.

I am aware that stupidity is a common trait amongst humans, I've seen a lot. Therefor I am thankfull to my God that I am able to use my eyes and ears so that I can see the truth. Many muslims obviously can't.

Peace.

[sotahoro]

Perhaps we should look at this from another point of view: separate politics and religion. What are the political and economical systems in the countries that fight bloody wars and where islam is the major religion? Are they democratic countries with freedom of speech, how educated is the people, how is the economy?

The wars between Western countries have stopped, because we believe in common values: democracy, free speech, free trade, education etc.. I cannot state this as a fact based on statistics, but I think that the most wars and violence is happening in the poorest of all countries. Many of the countries do not have a democratic system, suffer from illiteracy and have a tradition of violence. Religion is only a secondary factor I think.

[Silver Pearl]

Greetings BertKarsam,

Why is it that muslim countries can't live peacefully with their neighbours?

It is essential to look at Islam rather than Muslims as an example because humans are not immune to flaws. So lets look at what Islam actually says about neighbors and how we should conduct them: Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good - to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the Companion by your side, the wayfarer [you meet]…..(4:36)

Why does war and suppression to this day ALWAYS follow in the footsteps of Islam?

I fail to understand how political issues falls in the blame of Islma but anyways let me try and answer your question. People use it as a scapegoat, humans prefer to blame others than face up to their own errors. Now let me ask you a question, why does US feel the need to take control of the middle east? Why was Iraq waged war on for false evidence? Does this mean all Americans are ignorant?

Yes, I know that some of you preach what you believe to be the truth (Islam is a peacefull religion) but for me, when muslims are unable to live as they preach, the theory of being peacefull is just that. Theory. Do you muslims ever consider what kind of religion you are following or are you just blind followers?

The thing is, Islam is about peace and that is a fact not something made up. It is Muslims who have not practiced this. The media will only show you angry Muslims, why? Well you do the math.It’s a big error to attribute something to Islam because of the way humans err.

Look at the history of Islam, and even the history of Muhammad:
In 624, Mohammed led a raid for booty and plunder against a Meccan caravan, killing 70 Meccans for mere material gain.

Please provide source, the prophet (pbuh) did not commit anything ill towards another, unless they had to defend themselves, which is natural.

Between 630 A.D. and the death of Mohammed in 632 A.D., Muslims -- on at least one occasion led by Mohammed -- had conquered the bulk of western Arabia and southern Palestine through approximately a dozen separate invasions and bloody conquests. These conquests were in large part "Holy wars". After Mohammed's death in 632, the new Muslim caliph, Abu Bakr, launched Islam into almost 1,500 years of continual imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of others through invasion and war, a role Islam continues to this very day.

Riiiiiiight, bring the source, and we'll refute it.

The Muslim wars of imperialist conquest have been launched for almost 1,500 years against hundreds of nations, over millions of square miles (significantly larger than the British Empire at its peak). The lust for Muslim imperialist conquest stretched from southern France to the Philippines, from Austria to Nigeria, and from central Asia to New Guinea. This is the classic definition of imperialism -- "the policy and practice of seeking to dominate the economic and political affairs of weaker countries."

I believe we are talking about Islam here, not political errors.

You may defend your belief by stating that this was a long time ago, and that also chrisians and other religions were involved in battles and warfare. Yes, that is true. But I believe that if I had the time, I could show that the Muslims, in their western imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquests, killed two to three times as many Christians as the Christians killed Muslims in all of the Crusades combined.

Lol, now this one takes the cake.....please show us, it'd be quite intriguing. Just look at how many US soldiers killed Iraqi and Afgans after sept the 11th, the calculation don't even add up.

1. Muslim Turkey has expelled approximately 1,500,000 Greeks from its empire in the east and replaced them with Turks. They have massacred approximately 2 million Armenians and replaced them with Turks in the west.

2. Muslim Turkey has invaded and occupied northern Cyprus, displacing the Greeks living there.

3. Muslim northern Sudan has conquered much of southern Sudan, literally enslaving its Christian and pagan population.

4. Indonesian imperialism has occupied all of non-Islamic western New Guinea and incorporated it into Indonesia.

5. Muslim Indonesia has invaded and conquered Christian East Timor with horrible loss of life.

6. This very day, Muslim Indonesia is attempting to destroy Christianity in what used to be called the Celebes.

7. A half-dozen Arab countries have fought two to four wars (depending how you count) in an attempt to destroy Israel and occupy its territory, and is currently continuing the attempt this very day with the publicly voted consent of 55 of the world's 57 Islamic nations.

8. For no good reason, Muslim Libya has blown up western aircraft, killing many civilians. They even confessed to this sin and payed several million dollars to the victims of this brutal act.

9. Muslim Iraq, in an imperialist war of aggression, invaded and occupied Muslim Kuwait.

10. Muslim Iraq, in an imperialist act of aggression, invaded Muslim Iran with a resulting (some estimates say) death of 2 million people.

11. Muslim Albania, this very minute, is attempting to enlarge its borders at Christian Macedonia's expense.

12. Muslim Northern Nigeria has been (and is currently) an aggressor against the Christian south.

13. Muslims expelled approximately 800,000 Jews from their homelands between 1947 and 1955.

14. During Jordan's occupation of the West Bank, the kingdom undertook an unsuccessful attempt to make Jerusalem a Muslim city by forcing out approximately 10,000 Christian inhabitants.

15. Pakistand and India have been fighting for decades, Pakistan trying to incorporate Kashmir into Pakistan.

Alright do you want me to show you how muslims have been killed within that century, you'll find that your research does little justice to show the truth.

Yes, I know that the reverse has been true. For example, Christian Serbia entered and massacred Bosnian Muslims. The western response was instructive. The west sent troops to protect the Muslims. Serbia gave up its leader to be tried for the crime by an international panel. Will Indonesia do the same with respect to Timor? Or Sudan with respect to southern Sudan? Let's face it: Never.

Can you see into the future now? With all due respect you have shown the errors of muslim, which i'm not going to dismiss. Islam is the truth but humans with our flaws do not epresent it like it should be.

Question: What is the title of the shortest book in the world? Answer: "The list of Muslim nations who have risked the lives of their soldiers to protect (as with the U.S. protection of Muslims in Kuwait) Christian or Jewish citizens from Muslim imperialism."

I fail to understand your point....

Yes, I also know that in the 20th century the west fought two of the bloodiest wars in history. But in the past more than 55 years, the west has developed methods that have led to peace among the west, and all but totally ended western imperialism and colonialism. With former colonies having a large majority in the UN, and the example of the west before it, Islam has continued its imperialist, colonial, bloody wars unabated.

Jesus said, look at the fruits of the tree. The fruits of Islam? Supression and hatred. Look at the ongoing debate regarding the cartoons of Muhammad. Some muslims are more than willing to kill (and die...) to get their revenge. The killing of director Theo Van Gogh in Netherland some time ago was clearly a murder done in the name of Islam. His crime? He made a film about violence against women in Islamic societies, a film that included stories told by

Alright you’ve refuted your own arguments, so I won’t do that for you. Its one thing to show the errors of Muslim and quite another to try and brush that for the meaning of Islam and its representation. Jesus (peace and blessing of God be upon him) is our prophet and he was a believer of the truth Islam, the message always stayed the same. What Adam (pbuh) preached was the same message that Jesus (pbuh) preached and that message is the same message preached in Islam. You fail to understand insulting Islam is also insulting Jesus (pbuh).

Islam is the religion of peace, compassion, justice and if you researched you’d find that. Don’t use Muslims who commit acts of injustice as a way to attack the truth.

I am aware that stupidity is a common trait amongst humans, I've seen a lot. Therefor I am thankfull to my God that I am able to use my eyes and ears so that I can see the truth.

The God whom you thank is the God is I thank for my faith.

Many muslims obviously can't.

That comment is uncalled for and saying Muslims are incompetent is just low.

[BertKarsam]

Perhaps we should look at this from another point of view: separate politics and religion. What are the political and economical systems in the countries that fight bloody wars and where islam is the major religion? Are they democratic countries with freedom of speech, how educated is the people, how is the economy?

The wars between Western countries have stopped, because we believe in common values: democracy, free speech, free trade, education etc.. I cannot state this as a fact based on statistics, but I think that the most wars and violence is happening in the poorest of all countries. Many of the countries do not have a democratic system, suffer from illiteracy and have a tradition of violence. Religion is only a secondary factor I think.

Interesting point, however I don't think so. The main problem with muslim countries is that there is no actual democracy, and if there is a democracy it is likely to be replaced by Shari'a laws. Politics and Islam goes hand in hand, they are seldom, if ever, separated. Islam seems to be stuck in the medieval age, those muslims who are considered "modern" are silent of any crime done in the name of Muhammad. No they are shouting about these cartoons, oh my God, how awful it is... A few weeks ago, I read about a 14 year-old Iranian boy who died after receiving 85 lashes for the ‘sin’ of eating in public in the month of Ramadan. Where were the muslim activists then? Did they stand up and shout, this is totally unacceptable? No, they kept their mouth shut, as they always do. And if anyone dares to criticise Islam, then we are "racists" and better off dead.

Looking at poorer coutries influenced by christianity, thing are very different. South American countries, for instance. Bolivia, Peru, etc. Poor countries, BUT they are still democratic and people there actually stand up for human rights... What happens if you say against a muslim gouvernment? You are dead meat...

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[BertKarsam]

Greetings BertKarsam,

It is essential to look at Islam rather than Muslims as an example because humans are not immune to flaws. So lets look at what Islam actually says about neighbors and how we should conduct them: Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good - to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the Companion by your side, the wayfarer [you meet]…..(4:36)

Yes, seems Allah can't make up his mind, wheter to be nice or bad.

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
Yes, very merciful I must admit. Humans are not immune to flaws, true. Now can you please tell me the names of some muslim countries that have a democracy that is not firmly controlled by religious people and that is not put in a bad light by any human rights organisations?

I fail to understand how political issues falls in the blame of Islma but anyways let me try and answer your question. People use it as a scapegoat, humans prefer to blame others than face up to their own errors. Now let me ask you a question, why does US feel the need to take control of the middle east? Why was Iraq waged war on for false evidence? Does this mean all Americans are ignorant?

I am afraid I will have to answer yes to that question, most americans are ignorant or at best unaware. Americans has been led for decades to believe that their gouvernment is an elected and democratic one. The thruth is the totally opposite. I don't know what agenda those who controls The US has, but I am certain it is not peace and human rights. US authorities are downright evil and definitely not christian. Bush himself is a pagan and a member of Skulls and Bones, a secret society (as all other earlier presidents before him), and I wouldn't begrudge him the title christian if you lit a torch and poked me in the eye with it.

The thing is, Islam is about peace and that is a fact not something made up. It is Muslims who have not practiced this. The media will only show you angry Muslims, why? Well you do the math.It’s a big error to attribute something to Islam because of the way humans err.

Well, if the muslims are unable to practice what they read in The Quran, then where is the fault? Why doens't christian countries go to war at each other? There must be things ridden in The Quoran that muslim leaders can use to hide behind?

Theoretically, peace exists inside Dar ul-Islam, the House of Submission. I say theoretically, because we all know that Muslims, even though they are not supposed to, do fight fellow Muslims. The most recent examples are the civil war in Afghanistan between the Pushtuns on one side and the Northern Alliance (Uzbeks, Tajiks, etc.,) on the other. Other recent exceptions were the Iraqi attack on Iran, the Iraqi attack on Kuwait, the West Pakistani attack on East Pakistan which subsequently became Bangladesh, the Yemeni Civil War with Egypt and Saudi Arabia interfering, the civil war in Algeria, the war between Morocco and Algeria over the Saharan Republic, etc.

You say that it is only a coincedense that muslim countries are so often involved in wars? Now please show me the peacefull islamic nations? Which are they?

Alright do you want me to show you how muslims have been killed within that century, you'll find that your research does little justice to show the truth.

Yes, please show me! We have the United States, and you may say that they have killed so many in the arab world, but guess what? I don't consider the US a christian country NOR a democracy. Their gouvernment is totally rotten, their claims to fight for "world peace" is a lie, all they want is power and oil. But show me where muslims have been massacred the same whay they have massacred others?

Can you see into the future now? With all due respect you have shown the errors of muslim, which i'm not going to dismiss. Islam is the truth but humans with our flaws do not epresent it like it should be.

Then what is the point? What is the point with Islam, if it has laws that are impossible for humans to follow?

Islam is the religion of peace, compassion, justice and if you researched you’d find that. Don’t use Muslims who commit acts of injustice as a way to attack the truth.

Yes I have researched and I am concerned.

"When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying) I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then maim them in every limb and smite of them each finger."

"(It will be said): Take him and fetter him and then expose him to hell-fire And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is 70 cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in allah the Tremendous, And urged not on the feeding of the wretched, Therefore hath he no lover here this day, Nor any food save filth Which none but sinners eat."

Peacefull?

That comment is uncalled for and saying Muslims are incompetent is just low.

Really? What does the Quoran say about non-muslims (disbelievers) then? "O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred stedfast they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence."

Peace.

[Discussor]

Personally I think anyone who acts agressively towards another in the name of faith is wrong and is void of ANY respect.

Just because something is dear to you, does not mean everyone else has to respect it with the same passion.

Im not a follower of the Christian faith but theres a great parable in the scriptures which states something along the lines of "If you go to a town where the word of God is not accepted, shake the dust from your sandals and leave"

[Muezzin]

Personally I think anyone who acts agressively towards another in the name of faith is wrong and is void of ANY respect.

Just because something is dear to you, does not mean everyone else has to respect it with the same passion.

Im not a follower of the Christian faith but theres a great parable in the scriptures which states something along the lines of "If you go to a town where the word of God is not accepted, shake the dust from your sandals and leave"

How true.

Another truism - play with fire and you're going to get burned.

I do not condone violence in the name of Islam or any other religion, but there are certain psychos with guns who will not hesitate to use them in light of the slightest provocation.

[Silver Pearl]

Greetings,

Yes, seems Allah can't make up his mind, wheter to be nice or bad.

And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allah, lest they insult Allah wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall then inform them of all that they used to do. (6:108)

For the above verse I’m not going to stoop to the level of insulting you or what you believe.

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

The amount of time I have seen this verse used due to not comprehending what it means is just plain boring.

With the Qur’an each verse is sent for a reason, and thus you need to understand why the verse was sent and when it was sent. If you don’t know the origin and purpose of the verse you won’t understand it and thus falsehood is spread about it. I’m not going to blame you; there are plenty of anti-Islamic websites that are jumping up and down due to the existence of this verse. However, as soon as you refute it they hide, oh the irony.

I'm in a rush at the moment so i'll post something later to clear the misconception about the above verse, if someone else posts it before me then that is good.

Yes, very merciful I must admit. Humans are not immune to flaws, true. Now can you please tell me the names of some muslim countries that have a democracy that is not firmly controlled by religious people and that is not put in a bad light by any human rights organisations?

Oh yes the great democracy. Democracy is praising and encouraging the homosexuals, free speech which causes distress amongst certain groups, superiority, arrogance, child molesters, rapists, murders (whom get a slap on the wrist), fathers rapping their own children, consuming alcohol, drugs, heterosexuals….need I go any further? The list is endless. The reason Muslim countries are failing is because we have not taken the shar’iah law, the law prescribed by God, who knows us better than ourselves. Like I said we can sit here picking at the flaws of humans and believe me it would take us decades but that isn’t the point of this forum. It is called Islamic forum and thus Islam is what we refer to not human desires and mistakes.

I am afraid I will have to answer yes to that question, most americans are ignorant or at best unaware. Americans has been led for decades to believe that their gouvernment is an elected and democratic one. The thruth is the totally opposite. I don't know what agenda those who controls The US has, but I am certain it is not peace and human rights. US authorities are downright evil and definitely not christian. Bush himself is a pagan and a member of Skulls and Bones, a secret society (as all other earlier presidents before him), and I wouldn't begrudge him the title christian if you lit a torch and poked me in the eye with it.

Wow what a paragraph, well Bush speaks for himself but I wouldn’t go to the extent of saying majority of Americans are ignorant. Furthermore, UK is America’s best friend, though they do back stab one another in darkness. However, I wouldn’t say one country is better than the other. After all British troops did join the US, so does that not speak for itself? Anyhoo I prefer not to dwell on politics.

Well, if the muslims are unable to practice what they read in The Quran, then where is the fault?

The people themselves are to blame, how many Christians actually practice the bible, such a small percentage, most of them are Christians by title and we have some Muslims like that. How is that Islam’s fault?

Why doens't christian countries go to war at each other?

Have you done history on Ireland, Protestants V Catholics, doesn't that ring a bell? you'll notice that christians do go to war with one another.

There must be things ridden in The Quoran that muslim leaders can use to hide behind?

You can do that with everything, You'll know this had you done years of analytical study of poems or books. The minority who use Islam as a scapegoat will get their payment in the highest court in front of God. Furthermore just because few muslims use Islam as a way to cause havoc does not mean that is what Islam is about.

And when it is said to them:
"Make not mischief on the earth,"
They say: "We are only peacemakers."

Verily! They are the ones
who make mischief,
But they do not perceive. (2:11-12)

Theoretically, peace exists inside Dar ul-Islam, the House of Submission. I say theoretically, because we all know that Muslims, even though they are not supposed to, do fight fellow Muslims. The most recent examples are the civil war in Afghanistan between the Pushtuns on one side and the Northern Alliance (Uzbeks, Tajiks, etc.,) on the other. Other recent exceptions were the Iraqi attack on Iran, the Iraqi attack on Kuwait, the West Pakistani attack on East Pakistan which subsequently became Bangladesh, the Yemeni Civil War with Egypt and Saudi Arabia interfering, the civil war in Algeria, the war between Morocco and Algeria over the Saharan Republic, etc.

Islam can be practised and it is practised, however, the minority who don't always get the most attention and it is only those minority that the world recognises. Just because two parties are at war and they happen to be muslim does not mean that is what Islam is all about. You seem to be confusing Islam and the manner of how some muslims conduct themselves, which is a great error no doubt.

Peace is possible if those who called themselves Muslim practised what they preached.

You say that it is only a coincedense that muslim countries are so often involved in wars? Now please show me the peacefull islamic nations? Which are they?

There is no Islamic state at this moment but look at the history of Islam and you'll find many. Note:this does not mean you dash out info from anti-islamic websites.

Yes, please show me! We have the United States, and you may say that they have killed so many in the arab world, but guess what? I don't consider the US a christian country NOR a democracy.

That is very interesting, so tell us which countries do you consider christian and democratical?

But show me where muslims have been massacred the same whay they have massacred others?

Battle of Kerbala, First Crusade, Seige of Acre, Chamerian massacre, Yelwa massacre etc those are just few which came to mind.

Then what is the point? What is the point with Islam, if it has laws that are impossible for humans to follow?

Its not impossible for humans to follow, its simple but muslim countries are too busy trying to please the west and why islamic law has not been adopted in many muslim countries is only known to their rulers and Allah (swt).

"When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying) I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then maim them in every limb and smite of them each finger."

"(It will be said): Take him and fetter him and then expose him to hell-fire And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is 70 cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in allah the Tremendous, And urged not on the feeding of the wretched, Therefore hath he no lover here this day, Nor any food save filth Which none but sinners eat."

Peacefull?

Would you like me to quote from the bible? The above verses are talking about the calamity that will befall those who turn their back on the truth in the hereafter or a past event. God is merciful and if you do what is good for your heart then verily you will be rewarded and if you're amongst the transgressors. Well i'm sure you know, if you steal you might find yourself in prison. I'm sure alot of people in jail are probably thinking this isn't fair and what not.

Really? What does the Quoran say about non-muslims (disbelievers) then?

I find it strange that you will quote something without even knowing its meaning or the reason why the verse was sent. Non-muslim is not the same as a disbeliever (kufar). Jews are non-muslims but they are not disbelievers but an atheist who has been shown the truth and ignores, mocks Islam is one who has disbelieved in the message while it has been given to them.

Wa Allahu'3llim (and God knows best)

And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allah, lest they insult Allah wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall then inform them of all that they used to do.

Say, "Dispute you with us about Allah
while He is our Lord and your Lord?
And we are to be rewarded for our deeds
and you for your deeds.
And we are sincere to Him
in worship and obedience."


Regards

Silver Pearl

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

http://www.load-islam.com/c/rebuttals/Misquoted

[Mohsin]

But show me where muslims have been massacred the same whay they have massacred others?

Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Palestine

[sotahoro]

Greetings,
Oh yes the great democracy. Democracy is praising and encouraging the homosexuals, free speech which causes distress amongst certain groups, superiority, arrogance, child molesters, rapists, murders (whom get a slap on the wrist), fathers rapping their own children, consuming alcohol, drugs, heterosexuals….need I go any further? The list is endless.

Wow, those are pretty heavy allegations!
Please name me a political system, that has worked better than democracy? I'm afraid there isn't any. Communism, one party systems, dictatorships... they have all failed to serve the people. And what about the Taleban regime in Afghanistan? Their crimes were so big and unforgivable, that it makes me speechless. And the poor Taleban fools still fight a guerrilla war to bring back this system of great injustice and misery.
I would like to know how democracy is praising and encouraging to homosexuality and drug use etc! That's nonsense! :happy: The punishments for the crimes you mentioned depend on the laws that are currently enforced. Democracy doesn't dictate the contents of the laws, it only defines the basic system, how the people are chosen to run the country and to create and modify laws.
I suppose you despise democracy, because it's a fair system. Everybody are given some power to influence the politics and in such a system shar'iah law is not easyly accepted.

The reason Muslim countries are failing is because we have not taken the shar’iah law, the law prescribed by God, who knows us better than ourselves.

The western countries have been succesful without the shar'iah law.
I have one question, does the Koran say anything about the political system? I mean, who has the right to decide for others and how a country is run? Does the shar'iah law give power to religious leaders or who would hold the power then?

[Pinkie]

BertKarsam...do you remember the Bosnian Muslims that were slaughtered worse than animals in Srebrenica in July of 1995. Now that is what I call a genocide. The Armenian genocide was a lie. If such horrible event occured I don't think you would see a single Armenian living in Türkiye. And if you don't believe me there are Armenians who have lived in Türkiye for many many years. How were they able to make such "calculations"? 2 million? Who was helping the Armenians? The RUSSIANS! Makes no sense. Do you remember Soviet invasion of Central Asia. The aim of the Soviet Union-to destroy the foundation of the Turkic people and destroy Islam! Did you know there is a country called North Korea where children are STARVING, where people are being placed in "family camps", where people are getting killed trying to cross the border into China. By the way, do you know a man responsible for all of this? His name is Kim Jong Il and by the way he is a NON MUSLIM. The Communist Chinese Invasion of East Turkistan (which is now known as Xinjiang on the map and it literally means in Chinese "new territory). Oh and by the way those "agressive Muslims" you decided to bring up--in East Turkistan, Uygur women are forced to have "Forced Abortions" even if she's 9 months pregnant. *Ahem*, excuse me? Who is responsible for all of this? The Communist Chinese trying to exterminate the Muslims of their most "western province". And recently, the horrible massacre in Andijon, Uzbekistan. By the way, the tyrant responsible for this Islom Karimov who is responsible for the countless tortures of religious Uzbek Muslims in prisons. And let me mention in Uzbekistan and East Turkistan mosques are "closely monitered". If you are seen going to the mosque frequently then oh no, you might be a "terrorist". Oh my!

And you failed to mention Turkish Cypriots becoming refugees and the horrible discrimination of the Turks by the ENOSIS movement? May 27th, 1912 they kept attacking Turkish parts of Limassol, raided mosques, killed Turks and so on and so forth. Even in 1960 when Cyrpus became an independent nation-this did not stop them from hating the Turks that's for darn sure! And since we are talking about the Turks, let's go to the Ottoman Empire. If they were so "aggressive" they could have made every single person a Muslim. If you look at countries like Greece, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, the Balkins-they have Christian populations and they still kept their identity.

Let us not forget those peaceful Christians (please note I am not insulting any Christian user on this forum, only referring to history) who came to the New World. Anything that was Native American practice was banned because it was not "Christian" enough.

Adíos!

[martina]

Oh yes the great democracy. Democracy is praising and encouraging the homosexuals, free speech which causes distress amongst certain groups, superiority, arrogance, child molesters, rapists, murders (whom get a slap on the wrist), fathers rapping their own children, consuming alcohol, drugs, heterosexuals….need I go any further?

Do you have something against heterosexuals?

Does Islam not allow heterosexuals?

[muha0154]

Assalaamu alaykum

Do you have something against heterosexuals?

Does Islam not allow heterosexuals?

I think the sister meant homosexuals. Salaam.

Muhammad

[sumay28]

Do you have something against heterosexuals?

Does Islam not allow heterosexuals?

No Islam doesn't allow Homosexuals (I assume that is what you meant).

I have a little something against them.... No offense to the homos, but..... why?? It's so strange to me.

[mahdisoldier19]

Salam Alaikam


FIRST OF ALL, I dont think Anyone should go ANYWHERE NEAR THE CONQUESTS OF MUSLIMS COMPARED TO THE CRUSADES.

In which they made crimes that at that time made nature shudder. Killing innocence thousands of muslims women children men done by the crusades. Even Salahuddin after all THAT, gave forgiveness to them.

[Turin Turambar]

Salam Alaikam


FIRST OF ALL, I dont think Anyone should go ANYWHERE NEAR THE CONQUESTS OF MUSLIMS COMPARED TO THE CRUSADES.

In which they made crimes that at that time made nature shudder. Killing innocence thousands of muslims women children men done by the crusades. Even Salahuddin after all THAT, gave forgiveness to them.

It is true that in the past both Christians and Muslims committed atrocities, for instance during the Crusades or during the taking of Constantinople. But since that is the domain of history it is really difficult to compare those events with one another. We just don't have information or the information is biased.

On the other hand, it is easier to compare what is going on around the world today. If Islam really is spiritually superior, shouldn't we see that reflected in current events? Shouldn't we see for instance people tired of life in the corrupt West leaving in order to live in spiritually pure muslim countries? Or bloody sectarian strife between Christians denominations instead of between Sunni and Shia as it is the case in Pakistan, Iraq and other places?

It is difficult to judge historical events but it is much easier to judge current events. Just turn on your TV and keep your mind open and free.

[Muezzin]

It is difficult to judge historical events but it is much easier to judge current events. Just turn on your TV and keep your mind open and free.

On the other hand, 'those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it' ;)

[Turin Turambar]

Muezzin:

Great point. Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it. That is precisely why I think Muslims should have their history very clear in their minds. The "expansion of Islam" was in reality a series of successful battles. And it precisely because Muslims do not have that clear enough that many are trying to repeat it. All the random acts of violence that we are seeing, 9/11, Madrid, London, etc. are simply the modern version of those battles of which Muslims are so proud. Muslims are literally repeating their history. But I am afraid that the results for them this time will be very different.

[Muezzin]

Muezzin:

Great point. Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it. That is precisely why I think Muslims should have their history very clear in their minds. The "expansion of Islam" was in reality a series of successful battles.

Oh really? Provide some examples if you will. Winning a physical battle does not automatically endear the people to your cause. Please do not make the mistake of going down the ridiculous route of 'Islam was spread by the sword'.

And it precisely because Muslims do not have that clear enough that many are trying to repeat it. All the random acts of violence that we are seeing, 9/11, Madrid, London, etc. are simply the modern version of those battles of which Muslims are so proud.

Don't. The perpetrators of these recent acts of 9/11 and such are nothing like the participants in the historical battles you are referring to. For starters, civilians are illegitimate targets under Islamic rules of warfare.

Muslims are literally repeating their history. But I am afraid that the results for them this time will be very different.

Now, now, what prompted this attack on Muslims? I made a general comment that we should all, regardless of our nationality or creed, take heed of the lessons of history. You then twisted it to apply solely to Muslims.

Unless I misunderstood you.

[Turin Turambar]

Muezzin:

But Islam WAS spread by the sword. The process was the following: The army of the invaded kingdom was defeated by the Muslim army. The territory was incorporated to the Caliphate. All the political and social structures of the invaded kingdom were replaced by those of the Caliphate. People were encouraged to adopt Islam but they were allowed to keep their own religion but only in the status of dhimmis, that is, forced to pay a "humilliation tax" to the Muslims, deprived of the right to proselytise, forbidden to build new churches, etc. After two or three generations of living in such a sad status many got tired and converted to Islam in order to escape all the discrimination. The more Muslims in the place the more pressure on the few remaining non-Muslims, so the process of conversion was accelerated. This is how it all happened. That is why there are so many Muslims in the world. They are the descendants of conquered, oppressed and humilliated people.

If you think I am making this up visit any website related to dhimmis or dhimmitude. What Bat Yeor has written is a very good introduction to the subject. Or visit any site where the Egyptian Copts tell their side of the story.

So you see, swords (successful swords) were the ultimate reason for the expansion of Islam.

[root]

I tire of the Islamic moaning of cristian crusades. The simple fact of the matter is in the face of the very first battle between Muslims & christians who were the aggressors, and why do you beet on about how cruel christians were, Muslims attacked the bloody (I mean that literally) medieval europe who in return did what they did best. Spilt blood, it's history and it's in the past. Perhaps your inability to "move on" stumps your progress in the world in the same way that you call the west corrupt yet compare it with this:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781359.html

[Mohsin]

Muezzin:

But Islam WAS spread by the sword. The process was the following: The army of the invaded kingdom was defeated by the Muslim army. The territory was incorporated to the Caliphate. All the political and social structures of the invaded kingdom were replaced by those of the Caliphate. People were encouraged to adopt Islam but they were allowed to keep their own religion but only in the status of dhimmis, that is, forced to pay a "humilliation tax" to the Muslims, deprived of the right to proselytise, forbidden to build new churches, etc. After two or three generations of living in such a sad status many got tired and converted to Islam in order to escape all the discrimination. The more Muslims in the place the more pressure on the few remaining non-Muslims, so the process of conversion was accelerated. This is how it all happened. That is why there are so many Muslims in the world. They are the descendants of conquered, oppressed and humilliated people.

If you think I am making this up visit any website related to dhimmis or dhimmitude. What Bat Yeor has written is a very good introduction to the subject. Or visit any site where the Egyptian Copts tell their side of the story.

So you see, swords (successful swords) were the ultimate reason for the expansion of Islam.

That's ridiculous bro, i've heard some real bad allegations but that is pathetic!

Look at India, Islamic state ruled for over 1000 years but indians there weren't pressured to convert, nor in places like Spain. what about in saudi where there reside over 14 million christians? Surely they'd have also followed suit
What about today, people are converting left right and centre, 25 000 a year in Britain, 100 000 a year in America Go to http://www.islamawareness.net/Fastest/
Logic will tell you if so many people are converting here, freely, without any "sword", then surely the same could have happened before. The truth comes to all

[Turin Turambar]

To Moss:

The fact that you mention India of all places makes it even easier for me. Why don't you ask anybody from India, who follows the Hindu religion, what is his view of the Islamic conquests? What is today Pakistan was also Hindu from the religious point of view until the Muslim armies arrived. Why don't you type in Google "Pakistan" and "Hindus" and see what kind of pressure is TODAY applied on them? What is going on in Pakistan today is exactly what happened in all of India in the past. But then it was ten times worse.

You are trying to argue that there is no violence involved in Islam. Can you leave Islam voluntarily? What would happen to you? What would happen to you if you were living in Pakistan and you decided to leave Islam and said so publicly?

I will believe that there is no violence involved in Islam when I see people leaving Islam with no danger to their lives and no harassement. When everybody who leaves Islam has to hide behind a pseudonym, as Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina or has too live under police protection as Ayan Hirsi Ali I cannot begin to believe that violence is alien to Islam.

If you don't recognize those names, type them in Google. It is important.