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Snowflake
02-05-2006, 11:58 PM
:sl:


I came across the following fatwas on drawing and taking pictures, which led me to the conclusion that both are prohibited. But if you read the paragraphs below, the second one tell you photography is permissable. I find it impossible to agree with that. I may be missing something, therefore I'd appreciate your views on this plz.


Fatwa 1

You may not draw a creature of any kind unless you do so without drawing the head, since any creature without a head cannot be considered a full image.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Gabriel came to me and said: I had nothing to prevent me from visiting you yesterday but the images I have seen on your door. There was a curtain with images thereon, and there was a dog in the house. Order someone to cut the head of the image then it will be the same as a tree. Then tear off the curtain and use it as cover for two pillows, which will be used on the floor, with no respect. Order someone to remove the dog outside.” The Prophet (peace be upon him) did as Gabriel commanded him. [Musnad Ahmad (8032), Sunan al-Tirmidhî (2806) and Sunan Abî Dâwûd (4158)]


The paragraph below refers to photographs/prints (which are also used on posters/upholstry/clothing/books... everywhere,not forgetting in avtars & signatures etc).

Fatwa 2 - According to some scholars:

There are, however, significant differences between drawing a picture and taking a photograph. Drawing a picture is a fully creative process on the part of the artist. Photography is capturing a reflected image on film or in digital memory. The creative contribution of the photographer is therefore quite different than the creative contribution of a portrait maker. For this reason many scholars, including Sheikh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî, consider photography to be lawful.


The first paragraph prohibits any living being displayed in it's complete likeness e.g all parts included as in image on curtian mentioned. However in the second paragraph some scholars agree that photography is not the same as making images by hand, therefore is not prohibited. Yet photographs include complete images. Now adays fabrics with animal/human images are printed by machines, so that too is not a fully creative process on the part of the creator. So if one is prohibited from using, displaying, pics of living beings in their complete likeness, then what is the difference whether they were created technically or hand-made? The end result amounts to the same thing.

The angel Gabriel did not enter the Prophets (saw) home because the curtain displayed animal images. I don't see any difference in how those images are created, technically or by hand, they are still prohibited. So how does that make photography permissable, when it includes the full image. Nobody's going to take photos with the head missing, or only the head with no body. Am I missing something here? Because the way I see it is, if something is prohibited then it doesnt matter how it has been created. To me the prohibition still applies. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I just can't see the difference.



:w:
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Prawned
02-06-2006, 12:07 AM
I don't really see how exposing light to film can be against the laws of Islam because that would mean the laws of Islam are at odds with the Laws of Physics. But still, Islam and Allah may be greater than physics itself. Does this also make so-called "moving pictures", for example television or movies unlawful? Because sometimes I see this guy named Al on CNN, I think his full name is Al Jazeera and he makes these video tapes of people wearing hoods and pointing assault rifles at people. So does Al Jazero (I'll just call him A.J. from now on) violate the laws of Islam when he makes these videos?
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Malaikah
02-06-2006, 01:36 AM
:sl:

well sis, think about it this way. when you are drawing something, YOU are recreating it, you start by making an outline then putting in the detail yourself. but when you take a photo, its totally different, becuase all you are doing it capturing the light being reflected from a person (for example), and this light then creates an image.

if that doesnt help, you can think of a mirror. as far as i know, they are not haram. yet they show us an image of ourselves. a moving image too, one that involves the reflection of light off the person, then from the mirror to create the image. you can think of photography as taking it a step further, it captures the image just as a mirror would, expect this image can last and is still, unlike in the mirror where the image is ever changing.

i hope that helps! :)

:w:
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Snowflake
02-06-2006, 02:00 PM
No sis, how can it be the same? A mirror does not capture an image but reflects it, so does water. What I am trying to say is that, if something is prohibited, then it's prohibited. So if displaying living things is haram, then even a photo of a living being is haraam. That brings me back to the conclusion that photographing and displaying such photos is haram too. Ermm.. does anyone get my point? :confused:
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Halima
02-06-2006, 02:09 PM
:sl:

May I add some?


This is what I had found that is beneficial/relevant to this topic inshallah.


  • Please understand that photography did not exist at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him). Therefore, scholars have to compare photography to matters that Islam has ruled about. The ruling, therefore, is not based on an explicit text but on juristic discretion (ijtihâd).

  • Some scholars have compared photography to hand-drawn pictures. Drawing pictures by hand of people and animals is unlawful by clear and unambiguous textual evidence. Ibn `Abbâs relates from the Prophet (peace be upon him): “Whoever makes an image in this world, he will be requested to breathe life into it on the Day of Resurrection, but he will not be able to do it.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahih Mulsim]


  • Ibn Mas`ûd also relates that he heard the Prophet (peace be upon him) say: “The severest penalty on the Day of Resurrection will be given to image makers.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahih Mulsim]
  • Photography resembles drawing pictures in that it is a human effort that results in a fixed image of a person or an animal on a flat surface. Therefore, some scholars ruled that photographing people and animals is unlawful, because it falls under the prohibited act of image-making
.

  • There are, however, significant differences between drawing a picture and taking a photograph. Drawing a picture is a fully creative process on the part of the artist. Photography is capturing a reflected image on film or in digital memory. The creative contribution of the photographer is therefore quite different than the creative contribution of a portrait maker. For this reason many scholars, including Sheikh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî, consider photography to be lawful.
  • And Allah knows best.


source:www.islamtoday.com
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Snowflake
02-06-2006, 02:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Halima
:sl:

May I add some?
Of course my dear sis. And tnx too. I've read that before and that is why I disagree with photographic images being allowed. I was hoping to see if others brothers and sisters see my point of view/ agree/disagree.. but I guess it's a boring topic compared to what else is on the forum currently :happy:


Ok, let's look at hand-made drawings. These are permissable as long as they don't depict a complete life-like image. It's clear from this that the prohibiton lies in the creating & displaying of living images, whether that be on a wall, fabric, ornament, or anywhere for visual display.

Human effort is involved in everything, even if the scholars disagree. Cameras can't get up and operate by themselves by. So, I don't know where they got that idea from in the first place. It still mounts to the same thing, as in driving an automatic car or a manually controlled one. Both do the same thing & require human effort, only one more than the other.

The emphasis on impermissability is about displaying living images, as the curtain in the Prophets (saw). Now if that curtain had the same images printed onto it with a machine, it would still bear the same image. Just for the record, (before someone brings human effort into it ) that process requires human effort too. Therefore, whether they are hand-made or technically created, that fact remains that they are still impermissable. Basically, if we can't display living images then it doesnt matter what tool was used to create them. We still cannot display them.

Hello??? Come on ppl does anyone agree/disagree with me or not. I really want to know what you guys think. It isn't that boring or futile is it? :rollseyes
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Malaikah
02-07-2006, 02:26 AM
:sl:

sorry sis but i have to disagree with you on this one. why should reflecting an image and capturing an image be any different? you argue that humans have to put effort in to taking the picture, well dont they also have to out effort in to making a mirror?

The difference between drawing and taking a picture, as far as i know, is that you actually recreate it when you draw it yourself. you add your personal touch, its not perfect. with taking a photo, you are just capturing the light reflecting of the human who god created.. i dont see why you are against capturing light? :-/ the light and the image already exist, you didnt make it exist as you would be if you were painting or drawing something.

sorry im not a very clear speaker, but i hope that helps.

:w:
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M H Kahn
02-07-2006, 03:24 AM
A useful debate. Allah swt knows the best. Let's do neither art nor photography unless dire necessity compels us to.
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Malaikah
02-07-2006, 03:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by M H Kahn
A useful debate. Allah swt knows the best. Let's do neither art nor photography unless dire necessity compels us to.
:sl:

Thats not really required though is it brother? not if scholars have concluded on the issue already, it is up to the person to decide which opinion to follow, and if you believe that it is halal, then do it. isnt that how it works? :?

:w:
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Snowflake
02-07-2006, 12:36 PM
Thanks Khan bro. I forgot to include the permissability for lawful purposes. This goes as follows:

Photographs which are essential are permitted - such as those required for identity documents, or for identifying or pursuing criminals [e.g. "wanted" posters and the like - translator's note], or for educational purposes which cannot be achieved otherwise. The principle in Shari'ah is that we should not exaggerate about what is necessary.

Cheese sis,

Hehe don't worry about ur speaking, it's perfectly clear. How do I explain this. I feel like I'm only going to repeat myself. Look my dear sis. Yes a mirror is made by humans as all surfaces that have reflecting qualities are. Before mirrors were made ppl used to look at their reflections in water. As there is nothing in Islam to say that seeing ur relfection is haram, therefore this does not apply to mirrors, and also mirrors do not capture images, only reflect them.

Now you say that a camera captures an image. True, you are right. Capturing images on film itself is not haram. We are allowed to draw pictures of landscapes, flowers etc etc. Therefore it doesnt matter what tool is used for the purpose, the main this is it's permissable. In the same way, if drawing anything that possesses a soul is impermissable, then it's prohibited regardless of how it was created.

Drawing pictures of living things = haram regardless what tools are used (unless for educational and legal reasons) for creating them

Drawing pictures of anything that possesses a soul is haram - regardless of the tool used for creating them.

So that includes photography too. As we are prohibited from displaying such images, it doesnt matter how they are created, the prohibition still remains.


:w:
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Takumi
02-07-2006, 01:20 PM
What is your basis of disagreeing to the fatwas saying that photography is permissible?

Did you read the ahadeeth or Quranic verses in their truest form?

A hadeeth might be saheeh but also khabar ahad, that means that only some of the sahabah had narrated it. The level mutawaatir takes precedence over all ahadeeth used to extrapolate fatwas. [after the Quran, of course]

I'd prefer that you read all the texts involved and then decide for yourself.
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Snowflake
02-07-2006, 02:33 PM
Loq. Takumi bro I think I'm not good at explaining what I'm trying to point out. In my last post I explained that photography of living things is impermissable. Say I photograph a cat, dog, human anything... and put that picture on a wall, have it printed on a fabric or just display it anywhere.. I would be still be displaying it right? That is forbidden as it's clear from this hadeeth:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Gabriel came to me and said: I had nothing to prevent me from visiting you yesterday but the images I have seen on your door. There was a curtain with images thereon, and there was a dog in the house. Order someone to cut the head of the image then it will be the same as a tree. Then tear off the curtain and use it as cover for two pillows, which will be used on the floor, with no respect. Order someone to remove the dog outside.” The Prophet (peace be upon him) did as Gabriel commanded him. [Musnad Ahmad (8032), Sunan al-Tirmidhî (2806) and Sunan Abî Dâwûd (4158)]

From there I gather that photography/drawings of humans/animals is forbidden. To say photography is not forbidden in this situation means that it's ok to display these pictures too then? I think not.

If you could provide me with some valuable links regarding this matter, I'd be grateful to you. And I do want someone to prove that I am wrong.
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M H Kahn
02-07-2006, 06:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nadia Waheed
Loq. Takumi bro I think I'm not good at explaining what I'm trying to point out. In my last post I explained that photography of living things is impermissable. Say I photograph a cat, dog, human anything... and put that picture on a wall, have it printed on a fabric or just display it anywhere.. I would be still be displaying it right? That is forbidden as it's clear from this hadeeth:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Gabriel came to me and said: I had nothing to prevent me from visiting you yesterday but the images I have seen on your door. There was a curtain with images thereon, and there was a dog in the house. Order someone to cut the head of the image then it will be the same as a tree. Then tear off the curtain and use it as cover for two pillows, which will be used on the floor, with no respect. Order someone to remove the dog outside.” The Prophet (peace be upon him) did as Gabriel commanded him. [Musnad Ahmad (8032), Sunan al-Tirmidhî (2806) and Sunan Abî Dâwûd (4158)]

From there I gather that photography/drawings of humans/animals is forbidden. To say photography is not forbidden in this situation means that it's ok to display these pictures too then? I think not.

If you could provide me with some valuable links regarding this matter, I'd be grateful to you. And I do want someone to prove that I am wrong.
:sl:
Well-explained ! Let the discuusion continue if there is still a different opinion of greater reliability.
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Snowflake
02-07-2006, 10:02 PM
Thank you bro, I tried : ) But not everyone agrees, so I hope the discussion continues.
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Malaikah
02-08-2006, 03:48 AM
:sl:

Well, there are differences in opinion amongst the scholars themselves, so i see that as us having the right to choose which opinion makes most sense to us personally. I find that the opinion about photography being allowed is very reasonable, i can personally see the difference between and and actually drawing very clearly.

Maybe its because i am a casual drawer/painter and i aslo love my camera that i can see the difference plainly, because i have experience with both. And possibly because of my love of both physics and chemistry that helps me understand the processes involved in photograph that further highlights the differences.

A friend of mine used the analogy of recording ones voice to taking a photo, that helped me unhderstand the situation better.

in the end, no one can force any opinion on to any one else. I think this discussion would benefit from some one providing the detailed arguments used by scholars for and against photography. I personally couldnt find any.

take care, :w:

p.s. i personally disagree with the explaination you provided sis Nadia.. SORRY!! :)
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M H Kahn
02-08-2006, 04:40 AM
I think, in view of the Hadith put forward by sister Nadia Waheed, neither photography nor drawing is prohibited insofar as humans and animals are not made subject of these pursuits.

“Gabriel came to me and said: I had nothing to prevent me from visiting you yesterday but the images I have seen on your door. There was a curtain with images thereon, and there was a dog in the house. Order someone to cut the head of the image then it will be the same as a tree. Then tear off the curtain and use it as cover for two pillows, which will be used on the floor, with no respect. Order someone to remove the dog outside.”

When displaying of anything is prohibited, the creation of the same must have the same fate in the ye of God.
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Snowflake
02-08-2006, 02:25 PM
Absolutely bro! I'm glad you agree.
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M H Kahn
02-09-2006, 08:48 AM
It is very obvious that you shall not make images resembling humans and lower animals just for pleasure. If so, you will be acting against the message of the prophet(pbuh) conveyed in the Hadith which was quoted by Nadia Waheed.
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abdul Majid
02-10-2006, 03:28 AM
I Wanted To Say From What I Know It Will Be Said To The People Who Draw These Pictures, On The Day Of Reserection, To Bring Them To Life..and You Already Know They Cannot....
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E'jaazi
02-10-2006, 07:37 AM
There is no difference! The explanation goes all the way back to the Bible (I don't like to use this as a reference, but this is when the prohibition first appears) where it states: "Thou shall not make unto the thee any graven images or ANY LIKENESS of any living thing......" That statement is very clear and leaves no room for any arguement. A picture taken with a camera is a likeness of what it takes a picture of. Modern technology does not abrogate the prohibition.
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Snowflake
02-10-2006, 11:52 AM
Glad to see people using their brains. Thank you for your input all. And Blackjubba bro, mashaAllah It's good to see you agree with there being no difference as to how images are created. To me that's just an excuse.
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E'jaazi
02-11-2006, 06:39 AM
We are taught, that when we have such questions, we should ask the people of knowledege. This question, about TV, was asked of, and I offer you only a smalled paraphrased answer. The watching of TV is haram, according to the scholars. The reasons I can remember are: 1) Viewing theses types of programs exposes the Muslim to seeing people uncovered, performing all sorts of haram actions - such as fornication & adultry, which is so common nowadays, and many, many other actions that are haram and displeasing to Allah. This would also include the things you hear coming out of their mouths. Time watching TV should be spent on reading & memorizing the Qu'ran, studying Islam, and engaging in the rememberance of Allah.

Here's an example. Someone once asked some brothers (I was there) to name 10 US Presidents. Of course, being from America, it was easy. Then, we were asked to give the names of the 10 Sahaba who were gauarenteed paradise. None of us could! Although this is just a small example, think of all the time people waste watching TV, which will not benefit them in the least, yet we do not know the answer to this question. If we knew the names of these Sahaba, Insha Allah, we would want to know what they did do get this promise and try to pattern ourselves after them. Whatever they did, I'm sure they weren't wasting their time on foolishness and haram actions!

How many of us know those 10 names? Let's learn them and benefit ourselves!
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E'jaazi
02-11-2006, 06:43 AM
The scholars have said that watching TV is haram, because the Muslim is exposing him or herself to that which is haram, such as people performing lewdness, being uncovered, and all sorts of haram actions. Not to mention the amount of time wasted when one could be studying this deen, memorizing Qu'ran or engaging in zhikr - Remeberance of Allah.
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abdul Majid
02-11-2006, 07:02 AM
i agree with black.....and time consuming thats really the key you know, when you can use that time for other things....soo partysovrkids well leave the playstation to you
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Snowflake
02-11-2006, 12:13 PM
With regards to televised images of living things. I believe there is a difference as you're viewing things as you would in real life i.e. moving as they do in reality. The point is in displaying still images, which are prohibited. And that is regardless of whether they are hand-made or photos. As far as games are concerned, I feel these are a waste of time and money. Time that could be spent wisely to gain knowledge, help others and money that could help to feed and clothe a hungry soul. If we didn't waste so much money on useless things, someone, somewhere, would be suffering less than they are.
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partysoverkids
02-11-2006, 04:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nadia Waheed
With regards to televised images of living things. I believe there is a difference as you're viewing things as you would in real life i.e. moving as they do in reality. The point is in displaying still images, which are prohibited. And that is regardless of whether they are hand-made or photos. As far as games are concerned, I feel these are a waste of time and money. Time that could be spent wisely to gain knowledge, help others and money that could help to feed and clothe a hungry soul. If we didn't waste so much money on useless things, someone, somewhere, would be suffering less than they are.

Televised images are just a group of still pictures played in rapid succession. The same with movies. You may have to get rid of your T.V.
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Snowflake
02-11-2006, 09:54 PM
Technology is not the issue here not that I know much about it either. But whether they are still pictures played rapidly, those images still appear as natural movement. It's like me watching my family on webcam. Once it's switched off, that's is. It's not a permanent fixture. It is not the same as sticking up a photo or poster for display. Moving images on a film are shown, not displayed or exhibited for admiration. But you might be right about me getting rid of my TV. But that's because of my personal choice to do something more useful with my time instead.

I'd still be interested in what you have to say if you want to refute my argument. It might turn out that you have a valid point. Remember though although the prohibition in Islam applies to displaying/making likenesses of living images as ornamental objects, our opinions also based on common sense when relating to televised pictures. The way I see it is that televised pictures are not ornamental displays. But let's see if you could prove me wrong.
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Snowflake
02-11-2006, 10:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by partysoverkids
Television and movies are NOTHING but ornamental displays. Neither is a necessity in ones physical or spiritual life. They are luxuries. That said, I really enjoy my 3 HD sets. Football and hockey games are incredible !!

I agree it is not a necessity to survive. Not for me anyway. But try telling that to someone who is house-bound, a recluse, an agrophobic, anyone who is unable to socialise that TV is not a necessity. Different things become a necessity to different inviduals due to different reasons. This is aside from religion. However I don't see how you perceive televised images as ornamental? Ornamental display is for self-indulgence/ostentation - something that is decoratively pleasing to oneself. I don't see how a TV fits into that catagory. Especially when watching news of poverty, murders, rapes, child-abductions, war etc etc. But if that is your perception of ornamental display, then there is nothing I can do to change it. Everyone views things differently and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Tasneem
02-11-2006, 11:16 PM
I always thought taking pics was okay

I mean you are not trying to copy Allahs creation
Your trying to capture it

SaLaMz
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Muezzin
02-11-2006, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tasneem
I always thought taking pics was okay

I mean you are not trying to copy Allahs creation
Your trying to capture it

SaLaMz
Tell that to the RSPCA.

I'd have been the only person on my street with a pet badger if it wasn't for those meddling kids. :p
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Snowflake
02-12-2006, 03:16 PM
As some scholars say photography is not included in the prohibition. Therefore I assume they allow these pictures to be displayed too. It wouldnt make sense if you were allowed to take them but not display them right? That would defeat the whole purpose. Based on this (their) ruling, I'd like to ask those who agree with it one question... If there was a picture/portrait of a living person/animal, on the wall where you face the kabaah to perform salah, would you feel comfortable praying in front of the picture? If you wouldn't then why not? Remember even though your intention is to pray to Allah alone. Ok, I guess that's two questions now.

I'm really interested in hearing your answers. Be honest. :okay:
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shanu
02-12-2006, 03:29 PM
Whats the difference between drawing and taking pics?

Hmm lemme think :uhwhat

Well well well:rollseyes
Taking pictures is capturing something which is really there

DRAWING is drawing something out of ur imagination?

Hmm those cartoonists have some wild weird fake imagination. Well lets just call it lame art :D
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Snowflake
02-12-2006, 03:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by shanu
Whats the difference between drawing and taking pics?

Hmm lemme think :uhwhat

Well well well:rollseyes
Taking pictures is capturing something which is really there

DRAWING is drawing something out of ur imagination?
I can draw a picture of something that is really there too. Like your portrait :D

So what about my question about whether you'd feel comfortable praying in front of a picture?
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shanu
02-12-2006, 03:44 PM
well again intention matters, but i'll make sure its nt a pic of a person, i usually pray in front of ma table, and there is a pic of ma rabbit there. But i pray anyway, becos in ma heart i made intention to pray to Allah nt to ma beloved rabbit

i can only make real life sketches of people, but i cant paint or color them :P
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Snowflake
02-12-2006, 04:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by shanu
well again intention matters, but i'll make sure its nt a pic of a person,
Thank you for your reply. Of course intention matters and your reply shows you would not feel comfortable if it was a pic of a person. Neither would I. I mean I have no pictures at all of any living thing in my home/bedroom. I wonder if this discomfort is our muslim instinct telling us that it's wrong.
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shanu
02-12-2006, 08:11 PM
even though deep in our heart we know we r praying to allah only, the pic tends to disturb us. So its better to remove it to gain a peace of mind, rather than praying with ur mind thinking and worrying abt that picture
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Snowflake
02-13-2006, 12:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by shanu
even though deep in our heart we know we r praying to allah only, the pic tends to disturb us. So its better to remove it to gain a peace of mind, rather than praying with ur mind thinking and worrying abt that picture
Good girl :happy: That's exactly my point. Why does it disturb us? If it were a picture of flowers, the sea, mountains we'd wouldn't feel the same uneasiness. So why a picture of a living being?

I'm wondering if this is the explanation: ''islam means "submission" Everything and every phenomenon in the world, other than man is administered TOTALLY by God-made laws i.e. they are obedient to God and submissive to His laws i.e. they are in the STATE OF ISLAM.

Therefore, according to the above paragraph, as well as being muslim due to our beliefs & practices we are also muslim by nature. So could it be that when we do something that displeases Allah, we feel uneasy because we've gone against our muslim nature? :)
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abdul Majid
02-13-2006, 01:02 AM
[PIE]Hadith -Bukhari 5:338, Narrated Ibn Abbas

Abu Talha, a companion of Allah's Apostle and one of those who fought at Badr together with Allah's Apostle told me that Allah's Apostle said. "Angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture." He meant the images of creatures that have souls. [/PIE]


[PIE]Hadith - Sahih Bukhari 2.425, Narrated Aisha, r.a.

When the Prophet became ill, some of his wives talked about a church which they had seen in Ethiopia and it was called Mariya. Um Salma and Um Habiba had been to Ethiopia, and both of them narrated its (the Church's) beauty and the pictures it contained. The Prophet raised his head and said, "Those are the people who, whenever a pious man dies amongst them, make a place of worship at his grave and then they make those pictures in it. Those are the worst creatures in the Sight of Allah." [/PIE]

[PIE]Hadith - At-Tirmidhi

"On the Day of Resurrection a neck will stretch forth from Hell; it will have two eyes to see, two ears to hear, and a tongue to speak. It will say, "I have been appointed to take care of three types of people: every arrogant tyrant, every person who called on some deity other than Allaah (swt) and those who made pictures" [at-Tirmidhi stated that this hadith was saheeh - at-Takhweef min an-Naar, p.179, See also Jaami' al-Usool, 10/518, the editor said its isnaad is hasan] [/PIE]
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Snowflake
02-13-2006, 09:31 PM
JazakAllah khair.
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M H Kahn
02-14-2006, 03:01 AM
JazakAllah khair ! There's no scope to escape punishment if we mistake drawing or photography of soulful animals as permissible.
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