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Organized Chaos
02-06-2006, 09:19 PM
there was a challenge in another thread to prove the qur'an is not the word of god, but it put the burden of proof on the wrong person. the burden of proof is upon you to prove something, not on someone else to disprove. a defendent doesn't have the burden of proof the prosecuter does. therefore, i challenge you to prove the qur'an is the word of god.
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akulion
02-06-2006, 09:26 PM
I will give you a simple proof to begin with...

The Word Quran in Arabic Means "a book which is constantly recited"

Now as we have muslims all over the globe they pray

The prayer timings are 5 in the day starting from down and the last prayer at night.

In the prayer we recite the Quran

When it is night in Pakistan - it is day in USA and it is Afternoon in UK

so as time progresses it is always time for the prayer somewhere in the world

thus this book is indeed constantly recited!

A truth about the true book - even from its name.

Furthermore if you want evidences from the Quran you can also have a look at this page and comment on it. Proofs of the Quran

Please also note that if you would like to bring forward claims - please do so by all means but always quote tthe correct references from the Quran otherwise we wont know what you are tlaking about :)
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czgibson
02-06-2006, 09:27 PM
Greetings,

This question seems to me to come down to the same thing as the question of the existence of god. In both cases it's arguable who has the burden of proof. As an atheist, I think the theist has the burden of proof since god seems to me to be a huge hypothesis with no supporting evidence; a theist might say I have to prove god doesn't exist since bringing god into the discussion (apparently) explains so much that would otherwise be inexplicable, such as the origin of the universe.

Personally, when I read the Qur'an (in English translation since I don't know Arabic), it strikes me with every line as being the work of human hands.

format_quote Originally Posted by akulion
I will give you a simple proof to begin with...

The Word Quran in Arabic Means "a book which is constantly recited"

Now as we have muslims all over the globe they pray

The prayer timings are 5 in the day starting from down and the last prayer at night.

In the prayer we recite the Quran

When it is night in Pakistan - it is day in USA and it is Afternoon in UK

so as time progresses it is always time for the prayer somewhere in the world

thus this book is indeed constantly recited!

A truth about the true book - even from its name.
This "proof" has nothing to do with the authorship of the Qur'an.

The word "Bible" comes from the Greek word βιβλια, meaning 'books', and the Bible does indeed contain many books. Does this mean that god wrote the Bible?

Peace
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Organized Chaos
02-06-2006, 09:35 PM
remember, you can't prove the qur'an by using the qur'an. it is circular reasoning.
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akulion
02-06-2006, 09:38 PM
The word "Bible" means 'books', and the Bible does indeed contain many books. Does this mean that god wrote the Bible?
Calling a book a book is nothing special.

But calling a book by a name which represents something which is an action undertaken by humans and must constantly be true is indeed a miracle.

Did you know that when the Quran was revealed and the Muslims were only in Arabia at most this property was also true?

The Prophet Mohammed (sa) used to stay up all night praying and still attend his daily life.

It was one of his miracles - he had advised his followers not to try and fast as he fasts (he used to fast for many days in a row) and also not to try and stay up all night as he does because he had been given special strength by Allah.

Ofcourse he also used to sleep sometimes but not for very long. Indeed a miracle in the name "Quran" does exist in my understanding

remember, you can't prove the qur'an by using the qur'an. it is circular reasoning.
please do have a look at the proofs page link i gave you in the 1st post - its from science.

------------------------------------
Personally, when I read the Qur'an (in English translation since I don't know Arabic), it strikes me with every line as being the work of human hands.
can you eloborate how?
I would like to know - not for debate or argument - just for knowhow :)
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czgibson
02-06-2006, 09:59 PM
Greetings akulion,

format_quote Originally Posted by akulion
Calling a book a book is nothing special.
Of course.

But calling a book by a name which represents something which is an action undertaken by humans and must constantly be true is indeed a miracle.
So if I wrote a book called "Gardening forever", would that be a miracle?

can you eloborate how?
I would like to know - not for debate or argument - just for knowhow :)
Knowhow - for arguing with atheists and other non-believers you mean! :D

Certainly, although I'm wary of causing offence here. I know I shouldn't, since Muslims are more than capable of withstanding whatever negative opinions I may have of your holy book, but I still get this feeling - you understand.

Basically, I've never seen anything in the Qur'an that I feel must have had some supernatural power in its authorship. I've never seen anything in it that has struck me as being cleverer or more insightful than many other books.

Not knowing Arabic, I can't experience the poetry of the book, although I can admit to being entranced by its music when listening to recitations. However, that's something that can be experienced through the poetry of any language. Even if the poetry were as good (to my ear) as Shakespeare or Milton are in English, that obviously wouldn't convince me it was written by anything other than a human, since those two were humans.

I'm not convinced by the claims for "scientific miracles" in the Qur'an that are often made. I could show you ancient works of poetry or philosophy that contain similarly vague statements which have since been found to be true according to modern science, but does that mean the authors had supernatural intelligence? Of course not.

Those are a few reasons anyway.

Peace
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Mohsin
02-06-2006, 10:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Organized Chaos
remember, you can't prove the qur'an by using the qur'an. it is circular reasoning.
Yes you can

God sent mesengers to several nations before. to help these messengers convince their people, he gave them miracles. For example prophet moses PBUH was given a stick that could do magic, this convinced people watching at the time he must have been a true messenger
Prophet Jesus Peace Be Upon Him was given the miracle of eing able to give life to the dead, turn clay into lving birds, speak from during childhood, born without father, so people would see this as miracles and would say he's a messenger and accept him
Now in this day and age i can't tell someone to convert to islam, simply because Prophet Moses PBUH split the sea, or jesus PBUH spoke when he was a child. No one will convert for this reason, they'll say wheres the proof, i didn't see it
You need a universal miracle, that stands for all time
Now since Prophet Muhammed SAW was the last messenger, sent for the rest of time, his miracle requires to be universal and last this whole time and apply to everyone, and believe it or not it does
Hundreds convert everyday because of these miracles

1) Qur'an was revealed at a time when arabs used to compete in poetry. Qur'an surpassed all their poetry, and people would convert simply because of the language, they knew it was from God, a man could not write such beauty, especially a man who was illiterate! God challenged people to produce just one verse like one in the Qur'an, this challenge has remained until today, no one has come forward, because no-one can beat god. Even today millions of christian rabs convert to islam when they hear Qur'an on TV, thy know a man could not have written that
2) Not one verse in Qur'an conflicts with modern science. astonishing fact since it was revealed 1400 years ago when so many incorrect theories were around
3) In fact Qur'an contains many scientific miracles that have only been discovered today. It talks about Buig bang, how at the beginning there was smoke, how space is expanding, how earth isn't stationary, how earth and sun both move, how moon reflects sun's light. It says earth is not flat but in fact round
Also major miracles for me are things like it describes the birth of a baby in great detail, in different stages. And Keith Moore, who has greatest authority in field of medicine, admitted the Qur'an is totally right about it see http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-search.htm and go to scientific miracles, and read section 1H) about what actual scientists say about it
4) Qur'an has so many stories that are so similar with those of the Bible, even though an arabic Bible wasn't around at the time, and Muhammed SAW never came into contacts privately with christian/jews.
Even still, people who still say he copied from the Bible, if he did copy then why would he copy all the stories, but yet not copy all mathematical errors and scientific errors in Bible, and rather create new theories that turns out were all right
5) Qur'an makes some prophecies that at the time seemed so foolish to make by a man, it was like falling for a suicide trap, could easily have backfired, and there weren't any need for any of these prophecies, but yet they were still made and all proved right, i will provide these later inshallah
6) Historical accuracies made by the Qur'an. For example it talks about a city Iram that was discovered later
It also gets right the naming of the rulers in egypt. Prophet Joseph, great grandson of Ibrahim PBUH, at his time in the Bible the rulers are called Pharaoh. same title is given to the ruler at Prophet Moses' time, he's called Pharaoh. Now in Qur'an the ruler at the time of Prophet Joseph is called a King, not Pharaoh. Historians have proven this to be correct, how could this be, if Muhammed had wrote the qur'an surely he would've copied what was in the Bible
7) Muhammed PBUH prophecised on many occasions in Bible and Hindu scriptures. In fact he's prophecised by name in the Hindu scriptures on more than one occasion, and this prophecy is so accurate

According to Bhavishya Purana in the Pratisarag Parv III, Khand 3, Adhyay 3 Shalokas 10 to 27 Maharishi Vyas has prophesied:



“The Malechha have spoiled the well-known land of the Arabs. Arya Dharma is not to be found in the country. Before also there appeared a misguided fiend whom I had killed; he has now again appeared being sent by a powerful enemy. To show these enemies the right path and to give them guidance the well-known Mohamad (Mohammad) who has been given by me, the epithet of Brahma, is busy in bringing the ‘Pishachas’ to the right path. O Raja, you need not go to the land of the foolish Pishachas, you will be purified through my kindness even where you are. At night, he of the angelic disposition, the shrewd man, in the guise of a pischacha said to Raja Bhoj, O Raja! Your Arya Dharma has been made to prevail over all religions, but according to the commandments of Ishwar Parmatama, I shall enforce the strong creed of the meat eaters. My followers will be men circumcised, without a tail (on his head), keeping beard, creating a revolution announcing Adhan (call for prayer) and will be eating all lawful things. He will eat all sorts of animals except swine. They will not seek purification from the holy shrubs, but will be purified through warfare. On account of their fighting the irreligious nations, they will be known as Musalmaans. I shall be the originator of this religion of the meat-eating nation.”


This clearly prophecises Muhammed PBUH

I hope these are sufficient proofs for you inshallah
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akulion
02-06-2006, 11:05 PM
So if I wrote a book called "Gardening forever", would that be a miracle?
Actually no it wont - gardening is not done all year round at all hours of the day or night

now if you said something like "sleeping forever" yea then it could be used as a counter argument against my point.

I gues I made a weak point to begin with since it was a simple argument - so I stand corrected on that.

-----

No I dont want to use "knowhow" to argue :p

like i said i was just curious as to why a person would say every verse felt like the work of man...

I mean if you look at this thing:

In the Quran Allah(swt) describes when our solar system will come to an end and judgment day will begin. The verse is as follows:

Al-Quran, Chapter 55 Ar-Rahman, Verse 37
And when the sky is torn apart and becomes (rosy) red like ointment

1500 years later using the Hubble telescope scientists at NASA discovered how a dying star system looks like (Figure 1).


Figure 1: October 31, 1999
The Cat's Eye Nebula
Credit: J.P. Harrington and K.J. Borkowski (U. Maryland), HST, NASA
Three thousand light-years away, a dying star throws off shells of glowing gas

How could have Mohammed(pbuh) have known about such a fact when such powerful telescopes as the Hubble didn't even exist in those days?

Allah(swt) created the universe and all that it contains and it is he who can best describe such phenomenon with such perfection in his revelation to mankind, yet another proof!

Footnotes:
NASA - http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap991031.html
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Ghazi
02-06-2006, 11:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by akulion
Actually no it wont - gardening is not done all year round at all hours of the day or night

now if you said something like "sleeping forever" yea then it could be used as a counter argument against my point.

I gues I made a weak point to begin with since it was a simple argument - so I stand corrected on that.

-----

No I dont want to use "knowhow" to argue :p

like i said i was just curious as to why a person would say every verse felt like the work of man...

I mean if you look at this thing:

In the Quran Allah(swt) describes when our solar system will come to an end and judgment day will begin. The verse is as follows:

Al-Quran, Chapter 55 Ar-Rahman, Verse 37
And when the sky is torn apart and becomes (rosy) red like ointment

1500 years later using the Hubble telescope scientists at NASA discovered how a dying star system looks like (Figure 1).


Figure 1: October 31, 1999
The Cat's Eye Nebula
Credit: J.P. Harrington and K.J. Borkowski (U. Maryland), HST, NASA
Three thousand light-years away, a dying star throws off shells of glowing gas

How could have Mohammed(pbuh) have known about such a fact when such powerful telescopes as the Hubble didn't even exist in those days?

Allah(swt) created the universe and all that it contains and it is he who can best describe such phenomenon with such perfection in his revelation to mankind, yet another proof!

Footnotes:
NASA - http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap991031.html
Salaam

Allahu AKBAR! no one can argue with the quran
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anis_z24
02-06-2006, 11:41 PM
Salam
as long as we have people standing up for the Quran the word of Allah, means that the Ummah will never vanish until the day of judgement.
Insh'Allah
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-07-2006, 12:13 AM
Hi Organized Chaos and thanks for this thread,
format_quote Originally Posted by Organized Chaos
therefore, i challenge you to prove the qur'an is the word of god.
When I start a debate on the Qur'an, I always begin by asking others to bring their evidence that it isn't the word of God. The reason I do this is because even a single example contrary to the claim of divine authorship is sufficient to refute the claim, so it is more appropriate to first refute points cited as evidence that the Qur'an is not the word of God. Once the opponent's points are refuted or explained, then we can move on to this part of the debate which you initiated.

First, I would like to present a brief list of some of the qualities the Qur'an posseses that will enable you to understand exactly why Muslims feel it is such a special book. This is what I posted before on the forum:
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I'll try to give you a comprehensive answer as to why the Qur'an is regarded the way it is by so many people.
1. The Power of the Qur'anic Message:
-it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture. The Qur'an is by far the most widely followed and acted-upon book in the world. As for the Bible, most Christians follow the Church over the Bible, and each denomination has its own bible anyway. The fact that there is no other book in the world that forms the constitution of the lives of billions of followers is itself a sign.
-it is practical and logical, it can be established practically in society and is logically able to address the fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe.
-it is comprehensive, addressing all fundamental sectors of human life, be it spritual, physical, mental, social/societal, politcal, environmental, economic, etc.
-it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.
-it is clear and consistent, free of the changes in worldview and understanding that dominate the works of human beings.
-it is deep, having provoked thousands upon thousands of volumes of exegesis, expounding upon its meaning and revealing fascinating details that many people otherwise miss in their reading of the Qur'an.
2. The Power of the Qur'anic Style:
-it is Interactive, the text seems alive as it responds to the very questions that arise in one's mind at that moment. It speaks to the reader and delivers specific yet universal advice.
-it is Inerrant, free from contradictons and discrepancies, or other errors that would normally be found in the works of human beings.
-it is Memorizable; the Qur'an is the only book in the world which is continuously being memorized by millions of people and recited daily. No other book has been committed to memory by so many followers, as though it fits in one's mind as a key in a lock.
-its Language, the Qur'anic arabic is a stunning miracle in itself, its style is powerful and its recitation is melodious. More info: Here, Here, Here.
3. The Power of the Qur'anic Text:
-it is Preserved, even after fourteen and a half centuries, the Qur'an is recited today exactly as it was first revealed. Thus it was free of the tampering that befell other religious scriptures.
-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, which could not have been known by any normal human being 14 centuries ago. (see here). Many Muslims have also found the Qur'anic perfection extends even to various mathematical miracles within the text (see here for discussion of word repetitions). As well, there are the Qur'anic Prophecies.
-its Authorship; the context in which the Qur'an was revealed leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the fact that it could only be the word of God.
This is just my summary of the miraculous features Muslims find in the Qur'an. For more information, please see section 3c of The First and Final Commandment.
Many of the points in the list are further discussed as a proof, for example in this thread br. akulion has decided to discuss scientific miracles. Because the scientific miracles are arguably more subjective, I tend to elaborate on my points that I feel are far more concrete. For example, with regard to word repetitions, see my posts here and let me know what you think:
http://www.islamicboard.com/170015-post7.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/171261-post12.html
Br. Azim's post:
http://www.islamicboard.com/172587-post14.html

The above examples are just a few of word repetitions in the Qur'an that pose many difficulties to the critic of the Qur'an's divine origin.

The argument I use more frequently is one I raised in a dialogue with czgibson on the existence of God. The argument is reduced to the fact that either Muhammad was a liar, deluded, insane, or he was what he truly claimed to be and the revelation he recieved was truly from God, the last option being the only rational position one can take with his life and with the Qur'anic revelation. While czgibson did not concede my argument, he did admit that his "answers with regard to Prophet Muhamamd pbuh are a little deficient and [that he'd] have to study this area more in order to formulate a rational position".

I hope this helps.

Regards
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czgibson
02-07-2006, 07:00 PM
Greetings akulion,
format_quote Originally Posted by akulion
Actually no it wont - gardening is not done all year round at all hours of the day or night

now if you said something like "sleeping forever" yea then it could be used as a counter argument against my point.

I gues I made a weak point to begin with since it was a simple argument - so I stand corrected on that.
I may have used a bad example (although it's debatable - I would guess that somewhere there would actually be somebody gardening at any point in time), but I see that you got the point I was making.

I mean if you look at this thing:
[center]
In the Quran Allah(swt) describes when our solar system will come to an end and judgment day will begin. The verse is as follows:

Al-Quran, Chapter 55 Ar-Rahman, Verse 37
And when the sky is torn apart and becomes (rosy) red like ointment

1500 years later using the Hubble telescope scientists at NASA discovered how a dying star system looks like (Figure 1).

How could have Mohammed(pbuh) have known about such a fact when such powerful telescopes as the Hubble didn't even exist in those days?

Allah(swt) created the universe and all that it contains and it is he who can best describe such phenomenon with such perfection in his revelation to mankind, yet another proof!
OK, now this is exactly the sort of argument I find least convincing. For a start, the ayah from the Qur'an says nothing about the solar system or what a dying star system looks like. The words are not mentioned, because they are scientific labels devised by scientists. The section you've quoted from simply says that the sky will be torn apart and will turn red. Do you think the Qur'an is unique in having made prophecies like this?

The quotation does not imply knowledge about dying star systems on the part of the author, unlike the scientific detail that can be found on the Hubble telescope webpage. What has actually happened here is that a poetic phrase from the Qur'an has been reinterpreted in the light of scientific discovery.

Poetic language, such as that of the Qur'an, can be open to many interpretations, not all of which may be immediately clear. If someone finds a detail of scientific discovery that happens to correspond with an earlier piece of writing, does that mean the earlier writer had divine foreknowledge? Of course not.

The ancient Greek philosopher Democritus (c. 460-370 BCE) proposed that matter is made up of atoms. The fact that he was essentially right about this was not proven until centuries later. How could he have known? Was he divinely inspired?

That's the essence of my view on the "scientific miracles" argument.

Peace
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-07-2006, 08:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by izmi
The Quran is not always followed as few countries practice the sharia.
While it is true that there is no government today that is implementing the legal and political teachings of the Qur'an completely, my point remains concerning individuals.
As of its universalism i doubt that western countries would accept for example beheadings or cutting of hands.
I just limit my critics to the sharia laws concerning justice.
Sharî'ah law is explained here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ariah-law.html

I must also add that christians use only one Bible and the "many versions of the Bible" is a fad from islamic websites. People attending christian meetings see that the Bibles are all the same.
I'm surprised one would make such a claim when it is very clear that the Bibles differ even in number of books, depending on the church.

The many virtues of the Quran, which cannot be denied, are also to be found in the Bible, whose exegesis has also generated thousands of books over a more than two thousand years span.
How many people have memorized the entire Bible in the original hebrew and greek and can recite it in front of people, cover to cover.

Every year in Ramadan, Muslims stand up and recite the entire Qur'an in arabic, cover to cover.

I noticed you didn't comment on the word repetitions. Please give me your views on that.

Thanks
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The Ruler
02-07-2006, 09:28 PM
i dunno if da following point was made b4 but the starting words of the 2nd sura (suratul Baqara) says...

"This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil)" (2:2)

dats a clear enuf proof :hmm: dat der is no mistakes in da qur'an n dat wat eva is ritten in it is true :)
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aamirsaab
02-07-2006, 09:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by izmi
The Quran is not always followed as few countries practice the sharia. The tendency in Muslim justice is more to follow western standards than the Quran.
Same could be said about any religious book.

As of its universalism i doubt that western countries would accept for example beheadings or cutting of hands.
There are advantages and disadvantages of using this method


I must also add that christians use only one Bible and the "many versions of the Bible" is a fad from islamic websites. People attending christian meetings see that the Bibles are all the same.
Ditto with muslims and the Quran.

The many virtues of the Quran, which cannot be denied, are also to be found in the Bible, whose exegesis has also generated thousands of books over a more than two thousand years span.
That's cus they come from the same source: God. :)
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Mohsin
02-07-2006, 11:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab

There are advantages and disadvantages of using this method

I've probably misunderstood whta you've written here, but are you implying the law of Allah has disadvantages? Correct me if i'm wrong
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-08-2006, 04:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by izmi
I am satisfied to hear the argument of the number of books in the catholic Bible as compared to the protestant Bible, which is an argument of no importance.
What makes you say that? The argument refutes your claim that they have the same book.

Only muslims who are new on a religion forum do not know that the Bible is three or four times larger than the Quran and impossible to learn by heart.
I am well aware that the Bible is several times larger than the Qur'an, yet I maintain my point all the same. Can you show me any holy scripture other than the Qur'an which its followers memorize on a wide scale and can recite completely?
As of word repetitions in the Quran, knowing that nothing is new under the sun, as the saying goes, I see that gematria, the old Jewish kabbalistic lore, has now contaminated Quranic studies.
This is a red-herring. Instead of providing me with a rational response as to how Prophet Muhammad pbuh had a computer in his head such that he could keep track of the exact word repetitions, you have instead merely provide an unsubstantiated allegation of "old Jewish kabbalistic lore" contaminating Qur'anic studies. Word repetitions are simple statistics that are not particular to any one group. What you have left unanswered is the fact that the Qur'an miraculously uses words an exact number of times. Please answer this post:
http://www.islamicboard.com/170015-post7.html
I'm challenging you. How are you going to explain that away? Was it mere chance? Then how about this one as well:
http://www.islamicboard.com/171261-post12.html
And these ones:
http://www.islamicboard.com/172587-post14.html

It simply can't be attributed to mere chance.
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aamirsaab
02-08-2006, 09:42 AM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by Moss
I've probably misunderstood whta you've written here, but are you implying the law of Allah has disadvantages? Correct me if i'm wrong
Ah, i see what your saying. Allow me to explain.
Ok, in non-muslim countries, people would see Cutting off limbs as barbaric - implying that the ruling is disadvantagous. However, as a muslim I know why this punishment is given and similarly I understand why non-muslims wouldn't enforce this as a punishment.
Basically, from a non-muslim's point of view this particular punishment would be considered a disadvantage and so they are less likely to enforce it.

Sorry if I mislead anyone else. :)
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Abu Omar
02-08-2006, 09:06 PM
Only muslims who are new on a religion forum do not know that the Bible is three or four times larger than the Quran and impossible to learn by heart.
Somewhat true. Although some Muslims not only memorize the Quran, but also the six books of Ahadith. Some Muslims do also memorize the ten different Qira'at of the Quran.

Regarding the proof you want, well there are numerous. First, you should know that Muhammed (sall'Allaahu aleyhi wa sallam) was prophecied in the Bible (see Ahmed Deedat). Then we have some interesting evidence which I think have got far too little attention. Further, unlike many other, these evidence can't be said to be "miracle of reinterpretation" as they are confirmed by Egyptology.

Historical Errors Of The Qur'an: Pharaoh & Haman

Qur'anic Accuracy Vs. Biblical Error: The Kings & Pharaohs Of Egypt
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Turin Turambar
02-23-2006, 03:02 AM
Dear Ansar Al-‘Adl,

I decided to follow your instructions and keep our interesting exchange of opinions in this other thread. You said that you have “evidence” of the Quran being the true word of God and I say that you don’t.

You don’t really have any evidence in favor of the Quran being really a work of God. Everything you say are things that are believed only by Muslims! If you want a proof in the scientific sense you need something that could be verified by an impartial observer. Nothing of what you say really qualifies. I can be convinced by anybody of the truth of a mathematical equation because it is something objective. I cannot be convinced by anybody of the truth of your book.

After reading all your links I think that you have essentially two arguments. I will call them the argument of content and the argument of coincidence.

The argument of content is what you use when you say that the Quran is universal, practical, logical, deep, etc. and from that you want to prove that the Quran is true. The problem is that those are obviously characteristics that only Muslims believe in!. I own both a Bible and a Quran and I find the first more universal, more practical, more logical, etc. Those are subjective opinions so they don’t count as arguments. The follower of each religion will find his own scriptures more universal, practical, logical, etc. That is why he is following that religion to begin with!

The argument of coincidence refers to the numerical miracles and the obsession of Muslims with finding embryology and cosmology in their book. I will repeat what I said somewhere else. The best example of this “argument” is that little trick of saying that the proportion between the number of times the word "land" and the word "sea" are mentioned in the Quran is exactly the proportion in which we find land and sea in the world, and implying from it that the Quran must be the true word of God. This doesn't work with anybody who is a little familiar with logic, you see, because it is obvious that you are only using that argument after you have carefully checked that it will work in your favor.

For example, I saw your post about the number of times the words “Adam” and “Eesa” appear in the Quran. You say that they both appear 25 times, and since there is a verse (3:59) that refers to the “likeness” of Adam and “Eesa”, somehow this verse proves that the Quran is the true word of God.

Once again, you are only using it as a proof once you have seen that it will work in your favor. In order to show you what I mean I opened my Quran completely at random and I found 6:115 “And the words of thy Lord are perfect in truth and justice: none can change his words: He is the Hearing, Knowing”

So clearly this verse is saying that God is Hearing and Knowing. So the words “God”, “Hearing” and “Knowing” should appear the same number of times, exactly as the words “Adam” and “Eesa” appear the same number of times. Is that so?

Do you get my point? Why are you allowed to establish the rule first and then check if your book fulfills the rule? Why is it that I cannot suggest a rule and THEN you see if the book satisfies the rule?

So you see, in my opinion you don’t really have any arguments for your book being the true word of God. You have to take Muhammad’s word for it. But when discussing my hypothetical Chinese peasant who claims to be the successor of Buddha and Confucius I said one thing and I will repeat it here. You don’t have proofs but you still have your common sense.


PS: More people are answering my claims in the other thread! I will have to post something for my fans…;)
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-23-2006, 05:13 PM
Hello Turin,
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Everything you say are things that are believed only by Muslims! If you want a proof in the scientific sense you need something that could be verified by an impartial observer.
While some of the aspects I have listed entail a certain degree of subjectivity, this is not true for a number of them, which are concrete and objective.

For example, memorization of the Qur'an by so many people is a simple fact. There is no other book that can compare in this regard.

I own both a Bible and a Quran and I find the first more universal, more practical, more logical, etc.
Actually, I had the Bible in mind when I wrote these arguments, and you will notice that I mentioned the Bible already. Christians cannot claim that the Bible is universal since they have abandoned the laws of the old testament, and they are now under the 'new testament'. The Bible also falls behind the Qur'an when we come to inerrancy. The message of the Bible is also not coherent, unlike the message of the Qur'an. And different Chruches have different Bibles anyway. The Bibel is filled with irrelevant historical details that are of no concern to anyone, such as the long lists of names and numbers of people listed in many chapters. We can go on and on.

For example, I saw your post about the number of times the words “Adam” and “Eesa” appear in the Quran. You say that they both appear 25 times, and since there is a verse (3:59) that refers to the “likeness” of Adam and “Eesa”, somehow this verse proves that the Quran is the true word of God.

Once again, you are only using it as a proof once you have seen that it will work in your favor. In order to show you what I mean I opened my Quran completely at random and I found 6:115 “And the words of thy Lord are perfect in truth and justice: none can change his words: He is the Hearing, Knowing”

So clearly this verse is saying that God is Hearing and Knowing. So the words “God”, “Hearing” and “Knowing” should appear the same number of times, exactly as the words “Adam” and “Eesa” appear the same number of times. Is that so?
You didn't read carefully. The verse I was discussing said that the LIKENESS/SIMILTUDE (mathal) of Eesa is that of Adam. But noweher in the verse you mentioned does it say the similutde of God is hearing and knowing. Moreover, from the examples we have given it is clear that the Qur'an has a numerical order to it. Thus, you can't disprove that by trying to find examples that you think should appear a certian number of times, because there is already another order in place. For example, the number of times hearing and seeing is already in a specific order, and the number of times God appears is already in a specific order.

You've tried to explain the numerical fact away by coincidence! That may work for one or two of the examples, but not for all of them! If you've studied probability, then you know that with each word repeition, the probability that it could have occured by coincidence reduces it to an infinitesimal number.

Why is it that I cannot suggest a rule and THEN you see if the book satisfies the rule?
Because the book already has the most perfect system of rules. Allow me to illustrate with a hypothetical example.

Suppose we have a book that talks about nature. You think that the book should repeat the word 'dog' the same number of times as the word 'eagle' because they are both animals. Yet, the book on the other hand is even superior to that, because it repeats the word 'dog' as many times as other MAMALS, and 'eagle' as many times as other BIRDS! So the rule you conjure would not be a suitable tool to evaluate the ordered system of the book. Instead, one must evaluate the already confirmed repetitions in the book. And clearly, in the case of the Qur'an, it is not possible to dismiss them ALL as coincidence.

Coming back to Prophet Muhammad pbuh, I would like to ask you - do you think he is a liar, insane, or actually a Prophet of God?

Btw, I'm only sharing with you a few out of the vast collections of proofs, to save time. If you want to read more, purchase the book The First and Final Commandment by Dr. Laurence Brown MD.

Peace
Reply

Alasdair
02-23-2006, 09:00 PM
Greetings All:)

mean if you look at this thing:


In the Quran Allah(swt) describes when our solar system will come to an end and judgment day will begin. The verse is as follows:

Al-Quran, Chapter 55 Ar-Rahman, Verse 37
And when the sky is torn apart and becomes (rosy) red like ointment

1500 years later using the Hubble telescope scientists at NASA discovered how a dying star system looks like (Figure 1).



Figure 1: October 31, 1999
The Cat's Eye Nebula
Credit: J.P. Harrington and K.J. Borkowski (U. Maryland), HST, NASA
Three thousand light-years away, a dying star throws off shells of glowing gas

How could have Mohammed(pbuh) have known about such a fact when such powerful telescopes as the Hubble didn't even exist in those days?

Allah(swt) created the universe and all that it contains and it is he who can best describe such phenomenon with such perfection in his revelation to mankind, yet another proof!
Well if Allah said that nebulae are red, he was only partially correct. The image above was artificially coloured by nasa in order to show the composition of the nebula, light from hydrogen atoms is shown in red, light from oxygen is shown in blue, and light from nitrogen is shown in green.

this site shows how it was done.

The actual colour of nebulae varies quite a lot, and while the one above is actually red the colour all depends on the chemical composition of the nebula and how much it has been ionized. Red is the most common, but blue and green nebulae also exist

Also how exactly does "And when the sky is torn apart" have anything to do with space anyway? last time I checked the word sky did not mean space and even if it did a supernova does not tear space! Once the stars core is primarily iron (which will not undergo nuclear fusion), it collapses releasing a massive shock wave which which propels the outer materials into space creating a nebula like the one above, nothing is "torn", and "sky" does not come into it, how can you tear sky anyway? That implies it is like an solid.

I definately don't think that the verse you posted has anything to do with nebulas, supernovae or any other celestial phenomenon but I'm willing to be proved wrong! :)
Reply

Turin Turambar
02-24-2006, 03:25 PM
Ansar Al-'Adl

It is great to hear from you again, but I couldn't post because your system was down for a while...

You presented some counter-arguments to what I said about the numerical miracles. I have answers to that but I prefer to leave it for a while because you asked something that is much more important in my opinion. You asked me about my opinion of your prophet. I will answer you with all sincerity and civility. It will be kind of long but please read it. I did my best.

Many Christians begin their conversation with Muslims by saying that Muhammad was an “evil man”. I think that a very rude and stupid remark for several reasons but the most important is that by saying that you lose all possibilities of continuing a conversation with a Muslim. What Muslim will keep listening to you after you say something like that.? So don’t worry because I am not going to say anything like that. I just don’t think it is true.

But there is something more. That kind of remark, besides being offensive, makes no sense to Muslims, because they are used to see all that is good in Muhammad. And I DO see a lot that is good in him according to my readings of the Quran and the Hadith. The problem is that I also see some things that are not so good.

So, what is my opinion. I think that Muhammad was a human being with good and bad characteristics, as we all are. Probably he was at the beginning a very good person, worried about the dismal moral state of the Arabs of that time and an admirer of the better qualities exhibited by Jews and Christians around him. He probably started preaching without any intention of founding a completely new religion. He just wanted people to behave in a better way and he told them to do so. He had heard some of the stories that were told by Jews and Christians so he used some of them in his own speeches. I am sure that at this time he wasn’t consciously trying to deceive anybody. He probably saw himself as a moral reformer. He knew intuitively that polytheism was one of the roots of the Arab “malaise” of the times so he preached strongly about it. Because of that he was expelled from Mecca as we all know.

Then in Medina things started to change. He was still a good man but he had to resort to some drastic measures because the circumstances forced him to. He led his followers in what were, at least form the standpoint of the victims, little more than caravan raids. Probably he didn’t have any option, blockaded as he was by the polytheists who wanted to crush the new movement. But still at this point he was mostly a good man and he manifested it by preaching noble moral maxims. But he had to resort to increasingly forceful measures to guarantee his own survival and that of his group.

At a certain point he realized that he needed to assume full political leadership in Medina in order to survive. And he also felt (and he was probably right) that he could be a more just and efficient ruler than most. It is somewhere at this point when the prophetic utterances became closer to outright deception. At the beginning, in Mecca, he probably claimed that he was “inspired” by God, when he preached things like “all men are brothers”. That is a thought that actually comes from God, so in a sense he was inspired exactly as we Christians believe the prophets of the Old Testament were. At that point in Mecca there was no intention to deceive. But now in Medina circumstances were very different. He needed obedience and discipline from his followers in order to survive. The “inspiration” from God became “dictation” from God. You can claim that God “inspired” in you the thought that “all men are brothers” but you cannot claim that He merely “inspired” the detailed legal and military rulings that Muhammad now needed. So, whenever he needed something done, he would claim to have received it from above. Even at this point it is difficult to determine whether he was consciously lying or not. By now, after everything he had been through, he was probably convinced that he did in fact have a special link with God so in a sense everything he did and said was “divine” in origin. But was he “hearing” an angel recite specific words to him? If he claimed that, I think he was lying. His goals were still for the most part noble, he wanted to build a safe community for his followers and for that he needed to organize them. But something had changed.

He was human, and it is said that power corrupts. So, for instance, he began to show more and more intolerance for anybody who opposed him, even by mere words. He enjoyed (as most men would) his newly found power. And there were women. After being faithful to the same woman all his life, he enjoyed the new opportunities. But even at this point I DO NOT think that he was a wholly evil man. Certainly not. He still preached many good moral maxims and he wanted his community to be successful. He was like all of us, a mixture of good things and bad things. He was a great man but even great men have sometimes important moral failings as we can see in many historic examples.

And that is my problem with Islam, that it is a mixture of good things and bad things. Most of it is good, probably 80% of it. Most Muslims in the world follow only this part and it makes their lives better than those lives would be if they were pagans. But there is the other 20%, which can be used to organize a society but also to show intolerance (even against other Muslims) and to wage war. And unfortunately this 20% will always be in Islam. It is part of the whole package, because it is part of what Muhammad preached and part of his own personality. And because of a series of historic circumstances that is the part that is now becoming more influential in the minds of Muslims. And that is why we are all, Muslims and non-Muslims, suffering today.

I feel that I have so much more to say! But by now you are probably bored, so I will let you rest…;)
Reply

muslimahh
02-24-2006, 04:31 PM
Hmm I think that anyone here askng for the proof of the Quran really should be asking with an open mind rather than just for the sake or argumentation, otherwise no matter what proof is brought forward its not going to matter.

I'll use tenets in both Christianity and Atheism (NOT comparing the two, or joining them together in a group, please don't take it that way :) ) just because I think there are both Christians and Atheists here asking.

I'll just do one proof at a time, i'll make some statements, if you want more backing or references or proof for whatever I say please PM me. Also, instead of just reading and arguing, think deeply about each point I make here so that you know where I;m coming from at least (please bare with me, its really hard to do this typing, much easier in real-time or in real life.


k, so regarding the proof of the Quran, (without actually using the Quran :) )

what is the major tenet that Atheists usually use to question God's existance? Evolution right?

What is evolution? A theory. So just there you have something that is not firmly established (look up the definition of a theory in a dictionary.) What evolution has to do to stay true is to constantly readapt the theory to keep it valid and up to date with scientific findings, which it has done. This is just like any other scientific theory, finding, paper or experiment, its the whole null-hypothesis rule in the scientific method.

Of course its how we humans understand things and perfect them. We go on a trial and error basis and thats how we've come to have such a modern society.

Now, I'm going to assume that there is no doubt here that the Quran contains scientific findings confirmed by both Muslims and Non-Muslims.

How many times has it been revised? (I'll let you answer that....look at other posts on this thread for proof of that).

And yet, it contains accurate (undiscovered at the time) scientific information.

The word of God does not need to be revised.

-------------------------------------------------------
Now, what about the bible? Is it not too the word of God?


Basically as a Christian, if you are attempting to disprove the Qur'an you're really disproving what you, yourself already believe in.

The Quran confirms tenets of Christianity such as the Viginity of Mary (peace be uopn her) and the Miracles of Jesus (Peace be on him) and that Jesus was sent by God and a Prophet of God. It also clarifies that God has no son or daughters (He Begets not, nor is He Begotten). Also, keep in mind I am not attempting to disprove the Bible originally, nor am I attempting to disprove Christianity, as they are both confirmed in the Quran, but rather the current practice of Christianity and the Bibles currently used to support this)

However, I'm not supposed to use Quranic content to prove this, so just keep this in mind.

Now, what language was the Bible originally written in, something close to Armaic? Is the language still in existance? no. Do we have an original copy of the Bible? no.

The Quran not only maintained the original words and language but also the intonations and rhtym of recitation that was used, as it was not only preserved in writing but memorized by many of the companions of the prophet (peace be upon him) and still thousands of people today.

In the Quran, God (Al-Ilah in Arabic, translated to English this means "The God" pronounced "Allah) states that the word of the Quran will never be changed. All those enemies of Islam across time, starting from the time of prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had to do was change one line of the book or disprove it (which, again has never been done...PM me for more info).

I want to keep this short cuz nobody likes long posts :) so say, in the end, that all of the Bibles and all of the Qurans were dropped in the ocean, which one will we be able to recover? The promise of God holds fast. Jesus was sent to the Israelites, he never claimed that he was sent for the whole of humanity. He also mentionned that who is known as the "comforter" who will come and confirm what he taught his people. That is Muhammad (peace be upon him)

disclaimer: this proof really stinks because of the limited space here, but honestly for more details (if you're sincere in looking for info rather than just for the fact of argumentation, PM me).
Reply

muslimahh
02-24-2006, 04:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Alasdair

Also how exactly does "And when the sky is torn apart" have anything to do with space anyway? last time I checked the word sky did not mean space and even if it did a supernova does not tear space! Once the stars core is primarily iron (which will not undergo nuclear fusion), it collapses releasing a massive shock wave which which propels the outer materials into space creating a nebula like the one above, nothing is "torn", and "sky" does not come into it, how can you tear sky anyway? That implies it is like an solid.
In Arabic the word for universe is also translated into "skies" since theyre not distinguished in the language, when you refer to skies "Samawat" its in reference to the sky we see and the one we don't (the universe) since essentially they are the same thing. Just one problem with using the translation in another language to prove something :)
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-24-2006, 09:56 PM
Hi Turin,
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
So, what is my opinion. I think that Muhammad was a human being with good and bad characteristics, as we all are. Probably he was at the beginning a very good person, worried about the dismal moral state of the Arabs of that time and an admirer of the better qualities exhibited by Jews and Christians around him. He probably started preaching without any intention of founding a completely new religion. He just wanted people to behave in a better way and he told them to do so. He had heard some of the stories that were told by Jews and Christians so he used some of them in his own speeches. I am sure that at this time he wasn’t consciously trying to deceive anybody. He probably saw himself as a moral reformer. He knew intuitively that polytheism was one of the roots of the Arab “malaise” of the times so he preached strongly about it. Because of that he was expelled from Mecca as we all know.
The problem with your account is that it is inconsistent with the Prophet's biography and some obvious facts. Allow me to illustrate. You made the following points concerning why Muhammad pbuh took up this call:
-he saw corruption in Makkans from their pagan beliefs
-wanted to bring about moral reform
-took ideas from the Jews and Christians
-wasn't conciously trying to decieve anyone

However, your account misses some very important points! The following key facts negate your above hypothesis:
-he said he was a Prophet of God recieving revelations from an Angel! Now, either he was truthful here, or he was lying, or he was insane. How can you assert that he wasn't conciously trying to decieve anyone?
-Muhammad pbuh was from a very noble family (grandson of Abdul-Muttalib, a Makkan chief). He was well-respected in his community, and regarded very highly (eg. black-stone dispute). They used to call him Al-Amin (the trustworthy) and would always consider his advice. Now if he simply wanted to bring about moral reform, why didn't he accept the position when they offered to make him a tribal chief?? They told him that if he abandoned his call, they would make him one of their biggest chieftains, give him all the money he desired, and marry him to whomever he desired. But he refused all that, and refused to abandon his call. Note also, that he and his followers were being persecuted!! Why would he do that?!
-Muhammad pbuh preached in Makkah for 13 years. During that time, most of his revelations contained the stories of previous Prophets. Yet he only came into contact with Jews and Christians in Madinah! But in Madinah, his revelations were no longer about previous prophets but primarily on subjects of religious legislation! How can we say that he borrowed ideas from jews and christians when he preached those ideas before he met Jews and Christians?
Please see http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/
-you said that he started preaching without any intention of founding a new religion. Yet right from the beginning he started preaching Islam! He started right from the beginning by disowning and denouncing the Makkan idols and the other polytheistic deities that were worshipped and called people to the worship of One God.

So the key point here is that he went through so much suffering because of his claim that he was a prophet of God and was recieving revelations from God. The question I am asking you is why would he go through all this? Was he a liar, insane, or was he truthful?
Then in Medina things started to change. He was still a good man but he had to resort to some drastic measures because the circumstances forced him to. He led his followers in what were, at least form the standpoint of the victims, little more than caravan raids.
Let's speak abotu concrete historical facts, not personal conjecture. Mention specific examples and we will examine the historical context.

At a certain point he realized that he needed to assume full political leadership in Medina in order to survive. And he also felt (and he was probably right) that he could be a more just and efficient ruler than most. It is somewhere at this point when the prophetic utterances became closer to outright deception.
Okay, so you're claiming that he became a liar. There are a number of reasons why this position is irrational.

-the vast amount of Qur'anic verses and Ahadith which condemn lying. eg. liars will have blackened faces on the day of judgement (39:60), God guides not the liars (40:28), who is more oppressive than the one who invents a lie against God (29:28), From the Ahadith: "stay away from lies for lying leads to depravation and sin, which leads to Hell-fire", "make truth mandatory upon yourselves", "stay away from falsehood and lies", "a believer can adopt any habit for himself but not the habit of lies and deceit", "when a person lies, the angels shun him for miles because of that lie", the Prophet symbolically illustrated the magnitude of the sin of lying by describing the punishment of the one who spread falsehood as "ripping the face with an iron rod", "anyone who falsely attributes a saying to me will have an abode in hell-fire" (Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi). I can keep quoting but I think I've illustrated my point.
-If Muhammad pbuh didn't lie in Makkah, there would be no reason for him to lie in Madinah. Aside from the fact that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh was known to be the most trustworthy and truthful of his people, no new beliefs were introduced in Madinah, only legislation and guidance on day-to-day affairs. And the Prophet's most extraordinary claims, such as the night ascension to heaven, were made in Makkah, not Madinah.
-Keeping in mind that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh's time of preaching spanned over more than two decades, note the point that "liars must have good memories!"
-note also that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh's revelation was not in tune with personal desires. For example, when the Prophet Muhammad pbuh's wife Aisha was slandered, the Prophet pbuh waited for an agonizing period before the revelation came declaring her innocence. And the Prophet Muhammad pbuh is also reprimanded in various places in the Qur'an! Doesn't fit with the liar theory. Note also that the Prophet's personal interests and emotions are not reflected in the Qur'an. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh continually spoke in the Ahadith about his love and preference for his first wife, Khadija, who had passed away. Yet the Qur'an makes no mention of her, but instead praises women like Mary and the believing wife of Pharoah.

At the beginning, in Mecca, he probably claimed that he was “inspired” by God, when he preached things like “all men are brothers”. That is a thought that actually comes from God, so in a sense he was inspired exactly as we Christians believe the prophets of the Old Testament were.
This is the problem I pointed out in a previous discussion to czgibson. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh didn't claim that he had been inspired with the principle or that principle - he said that God had sent an angel with specific REVEALED (not inspired) words, that differed from his own words, and he recorded the revelation seperately, and had it memorized by his companions. Now if it was just a matter of inspiration, I would agree with your argument of delusion. But it wasn't. How can somone be so deluded as to believe that an angel appears before them and recites specific verses to them. The Qur'anic revelation was recited in prayer, but the Prophet's sayings were not. There was also a distinction between the two. The Prophet's Ahadith were inspired, but the Qur'an was revealed.

The “inspiration” from God became “dictation” from God.
Are you saying that none of the Qur'an was revealed in Makkah??!

He was human, and it is said that power corrupts. So, for instance, he began to show more and more intolerance for anybody who opposed him, even by mere words.
Yet we find that at the peak of his power, when he returned to Makkah with a massive army, and before him were all the oppresive tyrants who had persecuted him and his followers when he was in Makkah, he said "Go. You are forgiven." And to the end of his life, he lived in poverty, sleeping on a straw mat that left marks on his back, and always preferring to give to others over himself. His greatest enemies, like the arab chieftain Thumamah, when captured and taken prisoner, he forgave them and released them, which showed them the beauty of Islam, and eventually they chose Islam for themselves.

He enjoyed (as most men would) his newly found power.
Actually, there is very little in the life of this world that he recieved to enjoy.
And there were women.
Yet almost all of them were widowed-middle-aged women! And in every case he married them for important sociopolitical purposes.

After reading all of your post, I feel that all your points have been addressed by my above response. The question I would like to pose again is:

Liar, Insane, or truthful?

Peace!
Reply

Herostratos
02-24-2006, 10:42 PM
-it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture. The Qur'an is by far the most widely followed and acted-upon book in the world. As for the Bible, most Christians follow the Church over the Bible, and each denomination has its own bible anyway. The fact that there is no other book in the world that forms the constitution of the lives of billions of followers is itself a sign.
This is no argument. And at a time, Islam was much smaller than christianity.
-it is practical and logical, it can be established practically in society and is logically able to address the fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe.
-it is comprehensive, addressing all fundamental sectors of human life, be it spritual, physical, mental, social/societal, politcal, environmental, economic, etc.
-it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.
-it is clear and consistent, free of the changes in worldview and understanding that dominate the works of human beings.
-it is deep, having provoked thousands upon thousands of volumes of exegesis, expounding upon its meaning and revealing fascinating details that many people otherwise miss in their reading of the Qur'an.
Claim: It is practical and logical. Yet you offer no evidence to back it up.

Writing a long and comprehensive book doesn't make it true. If I write a longer book than yours, is mine divinely inspired?

Clear, consistent? I disagree.

"
4:110
Yet whoso doeth evil or wrongeth his own soul, then seeketh pardon of Allah, will find Allah Forgiving, Merciful.

39:153
Say: O My slaves who have been prodigal to their own hurt! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, Who forgiveth all sins. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. "

---------------------------------------------------
So, he forgives everything..... Or?
"
4:48
Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him.

4:116
Lo! Allah pardoneth not that partners should be ascribed unto Him.

4:137
Those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them.

4:168
Those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them.

9:80
Ask forgiveness for them (O Muhammad), or ask not forgiveness for them; though thou ask forgiveness for them seventy times Allah will not forgive them. That is because they disbelieved in Allah and His messenger.

47:34
Those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them.

63:3-6
They believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed so that they understand not. ... Whether thou ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them is all one for them; Allah will not forgive them. "

For the "deep" part, I daresay I have read many deep things in the bible as well. And this is highly subjective, anyways.
-it is Interactive, the text seems alive as it responds to the very questions that arise in one's mind at that moment. It speaks to the reader and delivers specific yet universal advice.
-it is Inerrant, free from contradictons and discrepancies, or other errors that would normally be found in the works of human beings.
-it is Memorizable; the Qur'an is the only book in the world which is continuously being memorized by millions of people and recited daily. No other book has been committed to memory by so many followers, as though it fits in one's mind as a key in a lock.
-its Language, the Qur'anic arabic is a stunning miracle in itself, its style is powerful and its recitation is melodious. More info: Here, Here, Here.
Interactive - Actually, most people I have heard/read about whom has read it says it is rather boring.
Language - See above. And anyways, this is very subjective as well.
Memorizable - I can't see how people memorizing it makes it the word of God. OR are you saying that, if people didn't memorize it, it is no longer the word of God? The only thing this tells us is that muslem culture focuses alot on memorizing....
Inerrant - This is discussed so many other places in this forum...

-it is Preserved, even after fourteen and a half centuries, the Qur'an is recited today exactly as it was first revealed. Thus it was free of the tampering that befell other religious scriptures.
-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, which could not have been known by any normal human being 14 centuries ago. (see here). Many Muslims have also found the Qur'anic perfection extends even to various mathematical miracles within the text (see here (Word repetitions in the Qur'an) for discussion of word repetitions). As well, there are the Qur'anic Prophecies.
-its Authorship; the context in which the Qur'an was revealed leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the fact that it could only be the word of God.
Preserved - No proof. What about the Torah, isn't it pretty preserved as well?
It's remarkable features, well - religious texts can be interpreted so many ways.... For the mathematical miracles, this is a very silly argument. A friend of my father has made a computer program that finds mathematical miracles in all texts... It is easy.

Authorship - In what context was it revealed? And what are the proofs of it?
Reply

muslimahh
02-24-2006, 11:02 PM
Hmm I have a question for all the Christians here.

Do you all deny the prophesy of Jesus (peace be upon him) of a man to come that will confirm him and his message? ("The Comforter")
Reply

Sister Khadija
02-24-2006, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimahh
Hmm I have a question for all the Christians here.

Do you all deny the prophesy of Jesus (peace be upon him) of a man to come that will confirm him and his message? ("The Comforter")
Assalam Alaikum,

This Comforter A.K.A. the Holy Spirit is actually Muhammed (peace be with him).


For centuries, based on the King James’ Version, Christendom has translated “Paraclete” as “the Comforter” though that is not precisely what “Paraclete” means. Even so, “Comforter” would be an acceptable title for the one who is the Mercy of all creatures. What “Paraclete” means, though, is an advocate, one who pleads the cause of another, one who counsels or advises. The word points to one who would be an advocate for and counselor to mankind, who, as the Qur’an puts it, would be harisun alaikum, ‘solicitous for your welfare’. (Likewise, in English “solicitor” is synonymous with “advocate” in the legal sense). Another indication which acts as a safeguard for the true meaning of these verses is that the “Paraclete” is also given the title “Spirit of Truth” (Greek to pneuma tees aleetheais ). This is clear when one realizes that in New Testament Greek, pneuma can mean “possessor of a spiritual communication”, i.e., an inspired person , as well as a “spirit” per se. (A Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament, by Rev. Thomas S. Green). Thus, to pneuma tees aleetheais “the inspired truthful one”, means that the “Paraclete” would be so truthful and trustworthy in discharging his responsibilities to the Divine Revelation that “the Truthful” or “the Trustworthy” would be identifying titles for him. The Greek aleetheais corresponds exactly with the Arabic Amin, and “Al-Amin”, “the Trustworthy”, which was an early title of Mohammed, peace be upon him.
Some hasty editor was not satisfied with the expression “spirit of truth”, or did not understand it, and assumed that this must be the same as the “Holy Spirit”. The words at John 14:26 which identify the “Paraclete” as the Holy Spirit are the result of this. Such words are found nowhere else and are obviously an addition to the text. Yet, this premature interpretation, unsound textually, is the one generally acceptable by the Church for explaining who the “Paraclete” is! But Jesus has spoken of someone who would dwell physically with mankind, advising and counseling them, in effect, “pleading their case” with God and showing them the sure way of return, by adherence to the truth, to the Divine Judge. He was not someone who was already present, but someone yet to come. As for the Holy Spirit, the angel of revelation, his presence was already manifest. David knew him, and asked God, “take not Thy holy spirit for me.” (Psalms 51:11). The holy spirit was present already during the ministry of Jesus, a fact which the New Testament acknowledges abundantly (cf. Matthew 3:16,17; 12:27-33, etc.). It would have been ridiculous and redundant for Jesus to speak of the future coming (‘He shall/will give you . . .’) of what presently existed.

Jesus points to a fundamental distinction between the “Paraclete” and all other prophets: “that he may abide with you for ever.” This is the same as saying: ‘the Last Prophet whose mission has permanence, voiding the need of any additional prophets.’ In plain English, Jesus is saying: ‘Look, I must go away soon, my mission among you having been completed. But I will ask our Lord to send for all of you another counselor, the prophet who will stand as your guide until the end of time.’

To prove conclusively that “John” understood the “Paraclete” to be a flesh and blood person, not a disembodied spirit or an angel, in another New Testament book attributed to him (1 John 2:1) he used the same term with reference to Jesus: “We have and advocate (Greek parakleetos, the same word rendered ‘Comforter’ earlier) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous”. Jesus, as God’s messenger, was considered to be a “Paraclete”; the term was thus not understood by early Christians to mean someone supernatural. The fact is that “Paraclete” or “Counselor” or “Advocate” refers to a human being, an inspired person – which is a legitimate meaning of pneuma – not a “spirit” per se. In practical terms, the meaning of “Paraclete” is nearly synonymous with “prophet”, with emphasis on the teaching and counseling aspects of prophethood. If Jesus said ‘another Paraclete’ at John 14:16, the significance is ‘another prophet, outstanding for his teaching and counseling.’ Furthermore, Jesus qualifies this “Paraclete” by terming him the one to ‘abide . . . for ever’, the last or permanent one.

There is yet another possibility for the serious researcher. There are numerous instances in the history of biblical textual transmission wherein words have been added inadvertently to the Hebrew and Greek texts; likewise, there are instances wherein words, indeed, complete sentences, have been omitted inadvertently from those texts by copyists, especially where the letters of the omitted word were similar to another word which preceded or followed it. In the ancient texts, the letters were all run together, without spacing, so that Jesus’ words at John 14:16 would have looked like this in the Greek text:

KAIEGOEROOTEESOOTONPATERAKAIALLONPARAKLEETONDOOSEI MIN.

Later, words were spaced so that we have:

KAI EGO EROOTEESOO TON PATERA KAI ALLON PARAKLEETON DOOSEI UMIN.
(And I will ask the father, and he will give you another Paraclete.)

The point is that the received Greek text’s “Paraclete” may not be a corruption of “Periclyte”. The original text might well have contained both words, but one became omitted in later copying because of being so close in position and in spelling to the other. Only further research can resolve the matter, but it is quite possible that what Jesus said originally was along these lines:

“I will request our Lord, and He will send you another Counselor, the Praised One, who will be permanent for you until the end of time.”

This is not entirely hypothetical; it has actually happened with other words and sentences of
the Greek New Testament.

Nevertheless, there is no one else in all of history that John 14:16 et seq. could refer to but Mohammed bin Abdullah, peace be upon him. Christians admit that these verses do not refer to Jesus himself, and the premature identification of the “Paraclete” with the Holy Spirit is untenable in view of other verses of the Bible. Further, no one else has come as a prophet giving due recognition to the mission of Jesus (“He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine . . .”) (John 16:14). No one else has led mankind into “all truth” (John 16:13). Only one man has received God’s Revelation since the time of Jesus, and only one man stands as Counselor and Advocate (“Paraclete”) for mankind for all the ages to come, Praised (“Periclyte”) by God and some 1000 millions of the human family.

:sister:
Reply

muslimahh
02-25-2006, 12:01 AM
;) JazakAllah Khayr sis,

I was trying to get a Christian to answer this one....

Anyone with any disputes as to what the sister said? and if you dont accept Muhammad (peace be upon him) as that prophesized man, where is he?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-25-2006, 04:38 AM
Hello Herostratos,
If you had paid close attention you would have noted that the list was of qualities that make the Qur'an unique/special.
format_quote Originally Posted by Herostratos
This is no argument.
While it may not be a direct proof of the Qur'an's divine authorship, it is certainly an indisputable point of distinction above all other systems of regulation.
And at a time, Islam was much smaller than christianity.
Your point? Universality has been demonstrated over time.

Claim: It is practical and logical. Yet you offer no evidence to back it up.
The list was meant to be brief and concise, although I have plans to expand it into a full article in the future inshaa'Allah. With regard to the point about being logical, I am of course referring to the doctrines of Islam which are free from the self-contradictory ideas which plague other religions like Christianity. Islam offers a coherent and logical explanation for our existence.

Writing a long and comprehensive book doesn't make it true. If I write a longer book than yours, is mine divinely inspired?
Show me where I said anything about length.

Clear, consistent? I disagree.
What's this? :D Someone actually wants to debate me on alleged contradictions in the Qur'an?!! Be my guest! We'll even make a new thread for it! But you might want to prepare by reading through the 42 rebuttals I've written, available in the above link!

The allegation you've made concerning forgiveness is the one I have answered here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...forgive_Shirk/

That clarifies the verses on Shirk. As for the other verses you posted where it says that Allah will not forgive particular groups, I'm surprised anyone could even think that a contradiction! Where in the Qur'an did God ever say that everyone has automatic forgiveness i.e. they can do whatever they want? He says that He forgives those who turn to Him in sincere repentance.

For the "deep" part, I daresay I have read many deep things in the bible as well. And this is highly subjective, anyways.
While it is true that 'deep' is subjective, the existence of more commentaries on the Qur'an than any other book in the world, is not.

Interactive - Actually, most people I have heard/read about whom has read it says it is rather boring.
Do you think you know even half as many people who have read it as me?! Making claim concerning 'most people' to a Muslim is quite funny, indeed. Anyway, I never claimed that everyone who read the Qur'an would automatically agree. It is for the intellectual and enlightened mind, you know. Read the following article I have posted here to find out just exactly what I mean:
http://www.islamicboard.com/188288-post1.html

Language - See above. And anyways, this is very subjective as well.
I did provide links, but for someone who doesn't know arabic, I know that arguing this point will be of little benefit.

Memorizable - I can't see how people memorizing it makes it the word of God.
As mentioned first, these are attributes which distinguish the Qur'an from any other book. There is no book ever that has been so widely memorized as the Qur'an.

Preserved - No proof.
Err...yes..a whole lot of proof actually!
What about the Torah, isn't it pretty preserved as well?
See the above link. A decisive refutation.

For the mathematical miracles, this is a very silly argument. A friend of my father has made a computer program that finds mathematical miracles in all texts... It is easy.
Really? I would love to discuss this further with you. I am speaking specifically of word repetitions. Do you think it is easier for the author of the Qur'an to maintain a computer program that keeps track of the exact amount of times a word has been repeated in the text, while still putting together a coherent book?! For a human, no. For God, yes.

Authorship - In what context was it revealed? And what are the proofs of it?
This is what I am discussing with Turin Turambar. Please see my last post and you will know exactly what I am referring to.

Peace.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-25-2006, 04:47 AM
:sl:
Concerning the argument from the life of the Prophet we can examine several incidents in his life. The following quotation from Shaykh Muhammad Mohar Ali examines the initiation of the revelation:
That the coming of revelation was a sudden and unexpected development to Muhammad (peace be upon him) is evident also from the famous tradition recording his immediate reaction to the event. He hurried back home from the mount Hirâ' bewildered and trembling in terror and asked his wife to cover him. Then he narrated to her what had happened to him in the cave expressing his fear that something untoward was perhaps going to happen to him, perhaps he was going to die. She comforted and assured him, saying that Allah could not mean any harm to him since he was so good and honest a man, always speaking the truth, entertaining guests and helping relatives and the needy, etc. After the initial shock was over she took him to her knowledgeable cousin Waraqah ibn Nawfal to ascertain the significance of her husband's experience in the cave of Hirâ. Waraqah, after having heard about the incident, expressed his studied opinion that Muhammad (peace be upon him) had received a commission from Allah similar to what had been previously received by Prophet Mûsâ and that this would involve him (Muhammad (peace be upon him)) in trouble with his own people. This last remark caused further surprise in him. (fn. Bukhari, no. 3. See also infra, pp. 369-373.)

Now, as Maududi points out (fn. Sîrat-i-Sarwar-i'Âlam, ch.II), several aspects of this report need to be noted carefully. In the first place, the spectacle we get of the Prophet here is that of a person who is clearly bewildered and confused at some unexpected and extraordinary development. Had he ever entertained any ambition, made preparations for playing the role of a Prophet or religious leader and expected or solicited any divine communication being made to him, his reaction would have been quite different. He would not have been bewildered and terrified, but would rather have returned from mount Hirâ' happy and confident in the success of his endeavors and expectations, not needing consolation and assurance from anyone else, and would have straightway proceeded to proclaim his commission and mission.

Secondly, the reaction of Khadîjah (r.a.) is equally significant. Had her husband been ambitious and making any preparation for playing the role of a social or religious reformer, that fact, of all persons on earth, would have at least been known to her. Hence, when the Prophet returned from mount Hirâ' with his new experience, she would have simply congratulated him on the ultimate success of his exercises and expectations and, instead of taking him to her cousin to obtain his opinion, would have taken other appropriate steps to embark her husband on his new role.

Thirdly, the attitude of Waraqa is similarly noteworthy. He was a close relative of the Prophet and knew him and his background well since his boyhood. Waraqah was also conversant with the Christian scripture and the fact of divine revelation. With that knowledge he instantly came to the conclusion that the stranger who had appeared to Muhammad (peace be upon him) in the cave of Hirâ' could not be anyone but the angel who used to bring God's message to Mûsâ. Had the Prophet been ambitious and desirous of becoming a religious leader and had he been in the habit of receiving instructions in the teachings of Christianity from Waraqah, as is often alleged, the latter's reaction and attitude would have been different. He would have either informed Muhammad (peace be upon him) that he had obtained what he had long been seeking or, likelier still, would have exposed his preparations and pretensions to the public. That Waraqah did neither of these is in itself an evidence that neither imparted lessons in Christianity to Muhammad (peace be upon him) nor was aware of any ambition and preparation on his part to become a socio-religious reformer. On the contrary, Waraqah's reaction clearly shows that by his study of the previous scriptures he had come to learn that the advent of a Prophet was foretold in them, that his advent was expected shortly and that Muhammad (peace be upon him) answered the scriptural descriptions of that awaited Prophet. It may further be pointed out that the orientalists, more particularly Watt, state that Waraqah's assurance gave Muhammad (peace be upon him)confidence in his mission. (fn. Watt, M. at M., 50; Muhammad's Mecca, 59). This acknowledged lack of confidence on the Prophet's part at the very inception of his mission further belies the assumption of ambition and preparation on his part., To these may be added the well-known facts of his denial of any desire for material gains out of his mission and, more particularly, his turning down of the Quraysh leaders' repeated offers of wealth, leadership and power to him in lieu of his abandoning his mission. (M. Mohar Ali, Sîrat Al-Nabî and the Orientalists, pp. 237-239)
:w:
Reply

Turin Turambar
02-25-2006, 06:35 AM
Sister Khadija says:

"Praised (“Periclyte”) by God and some 1000 millions of the human family."

But 2000 millions say that he is not.

We win ;)
Reply

muslimahh
02-25-2006, 03:59 PM
its funny how you guys only respond to the points that you want to and ignore the other ones ;)
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Turin Turambar
02-25-2006, 07:33 PM
muslimahh,

I can assure you that I wasn't trying to ignore any arguments. It was late at night and I couldn't resist the temptation of a joke. It is in my nature, I guess.

Regarding the identification of Muhammad with the Holy Spirit or the Paraclete I think I have read about that somewhere but Sister Khadija's post was a very good summary of the position.

It is really difficult to argue about the spelling of words in Greek two thousand years ago so I will not even try it.

I will go for common sense.

If Jesus was really telling his disciples that they should wait for the next and final human prophet, how is it that NONE of the primitive Christians EVER thought of anything like that? In the 600 years that elapsed between Jesus and Muhammad we never find anybody saying : "I believe in Jesus so I will follow his original message and wait for the next prophet" How is it possible that they all got his message wrong? We have many documents written by early Christians and not one mentions anything of the sort. According to the Muslim view people who were tortured to death to make them renounce Christianity kept repeating to the end a falsehood for no reason at all.

For me that makes no sense.

And I think that resorting to common sense is much better than trying to understand the real meaning of "KAIEGOEROOTEESOOTONPATERAKAIALLONPARAKLEETOND OOSE I MIN."
Reply

Salaam
02-25-2006, 07:46 PM
Peace,

Organized Chaos please view the following videos, which will prove that the quran is God's words.

Is The Qur'an God's Word 1of4

Is The Qur'an God's Word 2of4

Is The Qur'an God's Word 3of4

Is The Qur'an God's Word 4of4

Hope this Helps....
Reply

Sister Khadija
02-25-2006, 08:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Regarding the identification of Muhammad with the Holy Spirit or the Paraclete I think I have read about that somewhere but Sister Khadija's post was a very good summary of the position.
Alhamdulliah! Thank you for the compliment!

format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
If Jesus was really telling his disciples that they should wait for the next and final human prophet, how is it that NONE of the primitive Christians EVER thought of anything like that? In the 600 years that elapsed between Jesus and Muhammad we never find anybody saying : "I believe in Jesus so I will follow his original message and wait for the next prophet" How is it possible that they all got his message wrong? We have many documents written by early Christians and not one mentions anything of the sort. According to the Muslim view people who were tortured to death to make them renounce Christianity kept repeating to the end a falsehood for no reason at all.

For me that makes no sense.
Do not forget the Christians are the ones that saved Muhammed on his flee to Medina becasue the Christian King believed his Companions.

They did not get the message wrong. When the Bible was finally created as a Book with Constatine at the Council of Nicea, he knew of all the power and money that would be lost.

Think of it this way. Imagine you are Constatine. You have all the Christian power etc. But, lets say you of the Qur'an and know its the truth and know Jesus was leading the people to Muhammed by his prophecies in the original writings. Wouldn't you say, I can't tell people to follow Muhammed becasue they will leave my Christian ways, take a new book, and we will loose the religion, power, and money.

If no one saw the originals anymore, would you get rid of the evidence becasue you were so scared of loosiong all your followers becasue when your followers read it it will be so obvious to them to accept Jesus and Muhammed? You will now ive your life by the Qur'an?

Same reason the Pagans in Mecca fought so hard because they were scared to loose the caravans of people coming to worhsip their Gods.

Samething happens in every company these days. It's all bad for business.

Salaam,
sister Khadija
Reply

Turin Turambar
02-26-2006, 05:12 PM
Sister Khadija,

The Council of Nicea took place in 325. That is approximately three hundred years after the life and death of Jesus. During all that time many Christians preached and wrote. NONE of them says anything about "waiting for another prophet". We have many documents dating from those years.

So it is simply not true that Constantine destroyed everything that came before him. The documents are still there. It is the prophecy about Muhammad that cannot be found anywhere.
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muslimahh
02-26-2006, 05:53 PM
I think its well documented, no? Let me get you the references that I've heard.



(didnt mean to be patronizing btw :) Thanks for the answer...)
Reply

Herostratos
02-26-2006, 08:39 PM
Ansar al'adl

My point was that the qualities you think is so unique about the koran arehighlysubjective.

For the "clear" part of it, no, I am not interested in debating the koran with you, as I have not even read it, but:
A Norwegian muslem wrote to a newspaper that it was against Islam to punish blasphemers, while there's millions of people whom disagree loudly. Obviously, both of these views cannot be true. The Koran wasn't so clear about this, it seems.

Of course, I am sure you bare able to post a long post, with a link to an even longer explanation on an islamic website, about how obvious it is that blasphemy shall/shall not be punished, but there is easy for everyone to see that there are a lot of different interpretions of the koran. Obviously it is not so clear.
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muslimahh
02-26-2006, 11:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Herostratos
[B]

For the "clear" part of it, no, I am not interested in debating the koran with you, as I have not even read it, but:

I really really suggest you read it bro, you'll get better and clearer answers than from anyone on this forum
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-27-2006, 05:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Herostratos
My point was that the qualities you think is so unique about the koran arehighlysubjective.
Then why not respond to my individual points?

For the "clear" part of it, no, I am not interested in debating the koran with you, as I have not even read it
The clarity of the Qur'an is not negated by the fact that Muslims have differences of opinion. It should be noted that the legitimate differences only extend to lesser fiqhi rulings, as opposed to doctrinal differences or differences over laws. Differences in opinion in the latter are the result of not reading parts in context, because the Qur'an clarifies itself.

As for what you mentioned:
A Norwegian muslem wrote to a newspaper that it was against Islam to punish blasphemers, while there's millions of people whom disagree loudly. Obviously, both of these views cannot be true. The Koran wasn't so clear about this, it seems.
You haven't been clear about what you're referring to. Punishing blasphemers in an Islamic state? In a non-muslim country? In the after-life? Please be specific.

The ignorance of some Muslims has nothing to do with the clarity of the Qur'an.

Regards
Reply

mizan_aliashraf
02-27-2006, 05:24 PM
Salam

Verily, we have revealed this remeberance (the qur'an) and it is we who will protect it

Wassalam
Reply

Herostratos
02-27-2006, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Then why not respond to my individual points?
OK.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
While it may not be a direct proof of the Qur'an's divine authorship, it is certainly an indisputable point of distinction above all other systems of regulation.
That the Koran is followed by more people than any other book is 1) not true, the new testament is more followed, and 2) TOTALLY IRRELEVANT! Numbers does not determine who is right or who is wrong; if ten billions claim a red ball is blue, it doesn't make it true.


Also, you are also always talking about how all of the woman-subjugating, violent and oppressive regimes around the worlds are not true muslems or disbelievers, so frankly, there's quite alot of people that should not be counted.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The clarity of the Qur'an is not negated by the fact that Muslims have differences of opinion.
If it was minor differences, no. But the differences seem to be very, very large. Actually so large that they kill each others for it. Many(most?) palestinians, including their Mullahs seem to agree that it is OK to suicide-bomb civilian targets, yet you claim that is against the koran.

If the koran had been clear, it would not have been sects and fanatics in such numbers all following the same book.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Show me where I said anything about length.
You said that the koran was a comprehensive book.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
While it is true that 'deep' is subjective, the existence of more commentaries on the Qur'an than any other book in the world, is not.
Source?
But this does not have anything to do whatsover with divinity, as commentaries are the work of men.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Do you think you know even half as many people who have read it as me?! Making claim concerning 'most people' to a Muslim is quite funny, indeed. Anyway, I never claimed that everyone who read the Qur'an would automatically agree. It is for the intellectual and enlightened mind, you know. Read the following article I have posted here to find out just exactly what I mean:
You did not understand me. My point was to point out that this is subjective. If you live in a society where everyone is constantly saying that "the koran is great, the koran is good etc." you will starrt thinking so; but obviously, many people in my society does not think so.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
As mentioned first, these are attributes which distinguish the Qur'an from any other book. There is no book ever that has been so widely memorized as the Qur'an.
Again, it may be special, but the only thing it tells us is that arab culture emphasises memorization, and has nothing to do with divinity.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Err...yes..a whole lot of proof actually!
[....]
See the above link. A decisive refutation.
What I meant was, a book being preserved is no proof of divinity. I'm sure there are other well preserved texts as well.
For the book, it may be a refutation, but I cannot read it, as it must be bought first.... This is the argument from hidden knowledge, is it not?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Really? I would love to discuss this further with you. I am speaking specifically of word repetitions. Do you think it is easier for the author of the Qur'an to maintain a computer program that keeps track of the exact amount of times a word has been repeated in the text, while still putting together a coherent book?! For a human, no. For God, yes.
I think Turin has said this many times before, but.....

Let's say that there's equally many cats as there is dogs. Then let's say that the prophet mentioned "cats" twice as many times as he mentioned "dogs". Is this a disproof of his divinity? No it isn't. However, when he happens to mention "sea" in proportion hte the amount of the word "land" in the same proportion as sea and land appear, it is taken as a proof... There are so many patterns that can be made!

But why don't you tell a little more about these word-repetitions-miracles? Gice a few concrete examples, for example.

Then to the blasphemer-thingie:
I think the man said that no blasphemers should be punished at all, even in a muslem state.
Reply

lyesh
02-27-2006, 08:41 PM
"And if you are in doubt about what We have revealed (the Quran) to Our worshiper (Muhammad ), then produce a chapter like it, and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah if you are truthful. And if you do not do it, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones. It has been prepared for disbelievers. And give good news (O Muhammad) to those who believe and do good deeds, that for them are gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow.... " ( Quran, 2:23-25)

So, If u have any doubt about Quran Why don't u clear it out! God has challenged you! Produce even one chapter of the Quran! You never can and you never will!!!!

Ever since the Quran was revealed, fourteen centuries ago, until this day, no one has been able to produce a single chapter like the chapters of the Quran in their beauty, eloquence, splendor, wise legislation, true information, true prophecy, and other perfect attributes of the Quran. Also note that the smallest chapter in the Quran (Chapter 108) is only ten words, yet no one has ever been able to meet this challenge, then or today. Some of the disbelieving Arabs who were enemies of the Prophet Muhammad tried to meet this challenge to prove that Muhammad was not a true prophet, but they failed to do so. This failure was despite the fact that the Quran was revealed in their own language and dialect, and that the Arabs at the time of Muhammad were a very eloquent people who use to compose beautiful and excellent poetry, still read and appreciated today.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-27-2006, 08:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Herostratos
1) not true, the new testament is more followed
What do you mean when you say the New testament is 'followed' ? What religious practices/laws/directives are given in the New Testament?
2) TOTALLY IRRELEVANT!
I agree that numbers do not determine what is right or wrong, but the issue here is the distinction of the Qur'an over other books, so it is not irrelevant. The challenge is simple - what other book has been taken by people as the constitution of their lives? And I'm not speaking about the legislation of a country, but an actual body of guidance for every aspect in one's life.

If it was minor differences, no. But the differences seem to be very, very large.
As I said before, the legitimate differences are minor; the differences you're speaking of are resulting from ignorance on what the Qur'an says, and the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, not any ambiguity in them.
You said that the koran was a comprehensive book.
Comprehensive is not the same as long. By comprehensive I mean that the Qur'an provides us with guidance in every aspect of our lives.

Source?
I can get you the statistics.

You did not understand me. My point was to point out that this is subjective.
And I answered that point, especially with the link.

Again, it may be special, but the only thing it tells us is that arab culture emphasises memorization, and has nothing to do with divinity.
I'm not talking about arabs. I'm talking about Muslims, whether they be as far apart as Indonesia and Morrocco - the fact is that the Qur'an is the only book which is memorized so widely and so easily.

For the book, it may be a refutation, but I cannot read it, as it must be bought first.... This is the argument from hidden knowledge, is it not?
No, the knowledge is not hidden, anyone may purchase the book, but you have to make an effort. For online links on the Qur'an's preservation, there is some material available here:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/

I think Turin has said this many times before, but.....
I also responded to Turin.

Let's say that there's equally many cats as there is dogs. Then let's say that the prophet mentioned "cats" twice as many times as he mentioned "dogs". Is this a disproof of his divinity?
Muslims do not believe the Prophet is divine!!

But why don't you tell a little more about these word-repetitions-miracles? Gice a few concrete examples, for example.
Sure. I'll link you to three that have personally beeon confirmed by forum members and proper citations included:
http://www.islamicboard.com/172587-post14.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/171261-post12.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/170015-post7.html

I think the man said that no blasphemers should be punished at all, even in a muslem state.
The Qur'an has not prescribed a punishment for blasphemers in an Islamic state, so this has nothing to do with the Qur'an's clarity. The issue here depends on the circumstances.
Reply

Turin Turambar
02-27-2006, 09:15 PM
Herostratos,

Thanks for coming to the fight! And you even quoted me in one post! I feel really proud. I am sure you and I might disagree on many things (as it is normal among people who think freely) but if we persevere we might open some minds to common sense and simple human reason. It will make the world safer.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-27-2006, 09:17 PM
Hello Turin,
Can I get a response to my long post to you? I've been waiting some time to hear your 'common sense' and 'simple human reason'. :)
Reply

Turin Turambar
02-28-2006, 02:25 AM
Ansar Al-'Adl,

I have been all this time answering everything you write! You cannot say that I don't pay attention to you...;)

Now I will answer your statement that reads:

“This is a red-herring. Instead of providing me with a rational response as to how Prophet Muhammad pbuh had a computer in his head such that he could keep track of the exact word repetitions, you have instead merely provide an unsubstantiated allegation of "old Jewish kabbalistic lore" contaminating Qur'anic studies. Word repetitions are simple statistics that are not particular to any one group. What you have left unanswered is the fact that the Qur'an miraculously uses words an exact number of times.”

You are missing the point that izmi was making, and that I also make.

Obviously Muhammad wasn’t counting words while he preached. There was nothing miraculous in him. The only thing miraculous is how naïve Muslims are when it comes to this point.

Muslims are simply finding “confirmations” AFTER THE FACT. Once I have a text in front of me I can find any number of word repetitions according to rules that I am free to determine myself. If what I find suits me I will leave it there, if it doesn’t suit me I will keep silent.

For instance, and to show you how seriously I take your posts, and the time I am willing to devote to debunking your myths, I went to Wikisource and took the first text that I saw there: “Sleeping Beauty”. Using the “Find” tool that you have in your browser I found the following coincidences:

1) The words “day” and “night” are mentioned an equal number of times, three times each, and we see that there is one day for each night in the real world!

2) The word “eyes” is there exactly two times, one for each eye that we have in our face!

3) The word “four” is found in the text exactly four times!

Please don’t take my word for it. I actually took the time to find these “coincidences” so go and check them. You should be happy that the text is short, it will not take you too long to find them.

If the text is long enough (and if I have enough time and patience) I can find ANY NUMBER of coincidences, as long I as I am free to determine what constitutes a coincidence and what doesn’t. Muslims obviously have had too much time in their hands throughout the years, so by counting words they have discovered all these “coincidences” in the centuries that have elapsed since Muhammad. Probably they were using the time and dedication Christian countries used to develop the modern world, something from which you are also benefiting right now.

So you see, the Quran isn’t the only text dictated by God. “Sleeping Beauty” also shares the divine origin. Now that I think of it, I might even begin a new religion. I have always wanted to have fifteen wives.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-28-2006, 02:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Once I have a text in front of me I can find any number of word repetitions according to rules that I am free to determine myself.
Do so. Your response with an example is more on target. Try to find a text with miraculous word repetitions and then your response will be closer to meeting my challenge.

I went to Wikisource and took the first text that I saw there: “Sleeping Beauty”
Common sense shows us why this is not a good example. How long is 'Sleeping Beauty'? How long is the Qur'an? Exactly.

You're a Christian - why are you looking for anything other than the Bible? If your New Testament is miraculous, bring me examples from it.

As for the examples you brought, all of them are small numbers in a small text, as opposed to the Qur'an which is a big text, and 25 times is a big number.
1) The words “day” and “night” are mentioned an equal number of times, three times each, and we see that there is one day for each night in the real world!
Day does not appear three times, it appears TEN times, and night appears three times.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Sleeping_Beauty

2) The word “eyes” is there exactly two times, one for each eye that we have in our face!
It wouldn't be hard to repeat a word only two times in a nine page story. This one can be dismissed as coincidence.

3) The word “four” is found in the text exactly four times!
No, three times. The first time is 'fourth'.

Also note that the examples I brought you from the Qur'an had a specific indication. The word used to compare Adam and Eesa for example, was mathal meaning two things that are alike. As such, it is difficult to pass it off as a coincidence when we find that the name 'Adam' and the name 'Eesa' both appear in the Qur'an, exactly 25 times.

What about the other points I raised in my other post to you? No comment?
Reply

Turin Turambar
02-28-2006, 06:15 AM
Ansar Al-'Adl,

The only difference is the length of the two texts, and the patience Muslims have to find "coincidences". I have better things to do that counting words in a text (any text). I spent a few minutes in a random text. If I were to spend my whole life in a long one I would find many more coincidences. With enough patience I can find MORE coincidences in a long text than in a short one, simply because of the law of probabilities.

And certainly you would never find a Christian trying to prove his belief by counting words in the Bible. That is why we don’t have an equivalent argument to present against yours. We simply haven’t done that because it is something too silly to devote valuable time to it. As I have told you in other posts, Christians used that time to do other things, for instance to develop the modern world, including democracy and the equality of men and women.

By the way, in “Sleeping Beauty” the word “day” appears three times. The other cases you mention refer to a character named “Day” and the plural word “days” so it doesn’t count. It is my sacred book, so I decide what constitutes a sacred coincidence. Do you allow me to interfere with your definition of a sacred coincidence in the Quran? Are you a heretic or what?
Reply

bezimany 071
02-28-2006, 06:59 AM
i dont want to write novels.....i learned long time ago that Allah will open hearts to those who seek truth and close hearts to others who seek to prove him wrong.....so no matter what i say or throw at certain individuals it is really up to Allah to choose weather he will open or close his/her heart....

here are some links for you to enjoy if you seek truth...some of them are very neat......oh by the way.....look into the beehive, and behavior of bees, thats my favorite....if you dont start believeng after that i really fell bad for you so you should hit me up so i can make a du'a for you

enjoy

http://www.-----------------------/index2.html
http://www.answering-christianity.com/sci_quran.htm
http://www.islamicmedicine.org/amazing.htm
http://salimashrafi1.tripod.com/salimashrafi/id3.html
http://www.islam-guide.com/
http://asadi.95mb.com/koranfiles/
http://www.islamicity.com/science/
Reply

i_m_tipu
02-28-2006, 07:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Organized Chaos
there was a challenge in another thread to prove the qur'an is not the word of god, but it put the burden of proof on the wrong person. the burden of proof is upon you to prove something, not on someone else to disprove. a defendent doesn't have the burden of proof the prosecuter does. therefore, i challenge you to prove the qur'an is the word of god.
Have a look how many times the following words appear in the Holy Quran:

-+ Man 24. Woman 24

-+ Salah 5, Month 12, Day 365,

-+ Sea 32, Land 13

-+ Sea + land = 32+13= 45

-+ Sea = 32/45*100=71.11111111%

-+ Land = 13/45*100 = 28.88888889%

-+ Sea + land =100.00%

[B] Modern science has only recently proven that the water covers 71.111% of the

earth, while the land covers 28.889%.

Is this a coincidence?

Question is that Who taught Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) all this?:)
Reply

i_m_tipu
02-28-2006, 07:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by bezimany 071
The page is not working properly:? :?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-28-2006, 02:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
With enough patience I can find MORE coincidences in a long text than in a short one, simply because of the law of probabilities.
WRONG. According to the laws behind combinatorics, the probability of a word occuring a specific number of times in the text decreasing as the text grows longer, as the number of possibilites increases rapidly. That means if you took a book that was 20 000 pages, and the word night was mentioned exactly as many times as day, it would be far more astonishing than if you found the same thing in a single page report. Also, if the word repetitions are small, then there is a greater chance that it was intentionally done that way. But if the repetition number is bigger, it is practically impossible.

And certainly you would never find a Christian trying to prove his belief by counting words in the Bible.
Because the Bible simply isn't miraculous like the Qur'an.

By the way, in “Sleeping Beauty” the word “day” appears three times. The other cases you mention refer to a character named “Day” and the plural word “days” so it doesn’t count.
You just destroyed your case even more! If you only want to count 'day' singular, then you have to count night singular as well! And your three occurances of night were, "night's", "nights", and "nightinggale". The last two don't count.

It is my sacred book, so I decide what constitutes a sacred coincidence.
I haven't used any unreasonable comparisons like you have - singular to plural! The Qur'an says that Adam is like Eesa, and both names appear in the text exactly the same number of times.

You still cannot come up with a good response to the numerical miracles! :D The fact is that no one can explain away how the Qur'an has used these words an exact number of times, while still being able to produce a coherent and consistent message.
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
02-28-2006, 02:10 PM
:sl:

For those new to the Quran, the word Quran (kurr-'aan) itself means recitation. The Quran is the last revelation to humanity and has been unchanged since it was sent down to the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, in the 7th century. The Quran's 114 chapters (Surahs) and 6236 verses (Ayahs) are the source of every Muslim's faith and practice.
The Quran has had such a powerful effect on all those who have read its words; From Umar ibn al-Khattab, one of the greatest enemies and persecutors of Islam, who read the first 14 verses of Surah Ta-Ha and was so struck by them, he not only became Muslim, but also one of Islam's strongest champions; To German born convert Muhammad Asad who early this century described the Quran as "the ultimate manifestation of God's grace to man, the ultimate wisdom, and the ultimate beauty of expression: in short, the word of God."

One thing to note is that this is the English translation of the meaning of the Quran , not the Quran itself. The Quran is in its original, pristine Arabic as it was revealed from Allah (the word for God in Arabic). Someone new to these verses may not fully understand the verses and may take them out of context. One must look into all the verses in relation to each other and the Sunnah and Hadith (example and traditions of the prophet (s)), the context of revelation, Tafsir (commentaries), the original lexical Arabic and scholarly understanding to fully interpret the Quran's meaning.

However, it is highly encouraged for every Muslim to read the Quran and hopefully this English translation will be a good reference. As Abdullah Yusuf Ali says, "It is the duty of every Muslim - man, woman, or child - to read the Quran and understand it according to his own capacity." May Allah reward him for his life's work, for it has changed my life and millions of others irrevocably by allowing us to read the words of God's divine guidance.

Marshallah!

:w:
Fatima :sister:
Reply

bezimany 071
02-28-2006, 02:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by i_m_tipu
The page is not working properly:? :?
salaam.....im sorry about that, but it works fine on my comp.....and i tried it at work too.....it has flash intro so maybe thats why it doesnt work on your comp.....im not a comp guru, it might be cookies or firewall or some anti spyware pop up sofware thats preventig it to open....it is actually a pretty cool site......

here is one page that offers movies about miracles of the Qur'an......

http://www.-----------------------/film.html

enjoy
peace
bez
Reply

Mohsin
02-28-2006, 03:13 PM
:sl:
I thought i'd add my 2 cents to the debate.Turin, I don't think you quite understand the extent of the miracle in the Qur'an with regards to word repititions.

Whenever God has said X is like Y, or the likeness of X is the likeness of that of Y, in these instances X and Y appear same number of times, and this happens. The miracle is all about the wording of the Qur'an. Even when God says A is not like B, then A and B are not mentioned same number of times. This occurrs so many times it in the Qur'an it is inconceivable to think a man could have written such a book

Take this verse into account

Have they not considered the Qur'an, if it came, other than Allah, surely they will find in it many inconsistencies.(4:82)

A sceptic could take this verse literally and say "Look the actual word inconsistencies is mentioned here, so i have found inconsistencies in the Qur'an which contradicts the above verse, so the Qur'an contains a contradiction. However upon closer examination you will see it says inconsistencies, with a letter S at the end, indicating plural, and miraculously the word inconsistencies is only mentioned once, and not twice. God chooses his words so precisely, so no one can find any such contradiction

If you take into account Aristotle's law of the "excluded middle" you will understand. Please take time to read the following short extract from a book by Gary Miller THE BASIS OF MUSLIM BELIEF.

Use and Mention of Words
For myself, as I said everyone knows something for sure or has an interest and experience in life; my interest is in mathematics and logic. There is a verse in the Qur'an which says:

"This a scripture whose verses are perfected and then expounded."(11:1)

Which tells me that there are no wasted words in the Qur'an; that each verse is perfected and then it is explained. It could not be in a better form. One could not use fewer words to say the same thing or if one uses more words one would only be adding superfluous information.

This directed my attention to a particular mathematical subject, a logical subject, and I examined the Qur'an to see if I could find something of what I knew to be the case.

A revolution in logic has occurred in the last one hundred years, primarily over the difference between use and mention of words. A structure of logic seemed to be in danger of collapsing about a hundred years ago because it came to the attention of the people who studied these matters that the structure was not quite sound. The issue involved 'self-reference' and the use and the mention of words which I will explain briefly.

Aristotle's law of the 'excluded middle' was the statement that every statement is either true false. About a hundred years ago, somebody pointed out that the law of the excluded middle is a statement and is therefore not a law after all. It could just as well be false as well as true.

This was a tangled knot for the logicians to untie until they came to understand the difference between the use and the mention of a word.

When we use a word, we consider its meaning. When we mention a word we are discussing the word itself. If I said Toronto is a large city, I mean Toronto, that place, is a large cit. If I say Toronto has seven letters, I am talking about the word 'Toronto'. In the first case I used the word and in the second I mentioned the word. You see distinction.

Jesus and Adam
Connecting these ideas and the idea that the Qur'an composed of verses that are perfected and then expounded for us, consider the verse which says:

"The likeness of Jesus before Allah is as the likeness of Adam." (3:59)

It is very clear that what we have in the statement is an equation. This verse goes on to explain how that is true because they both came under unusual circumstances rather than having a mother and a father in the usual human reproductive way. But more than that, I got to consider the use of the mention of words.

The words are used clearly enough. Jesus is like Adam and by Jesus and Adam, we mean those two men. But what about the mention of the words? Was the author aware of the fact that if we were considering the words as words themselves, this sentence also read that 'Jesus' is something like 'Adam'. Well, they are not spelt with the same letters, how can they be alike in this revelation? The only answer came to me fairly quickly and I took a look at the index of the Qur'an.

The index of the Qur'an has been made available only since 1945. This book was the result of years of work by a man and his students who assembled a book which lists every word in the Qur'an and where it can be found.

So, when we look up the word Isa (Jesus), we find it in the Qur'an twenty-five times. When we look up Adam, we find it in the Qur'an twenty-five times. The point is that they are very much alike in this book. They are equated. So, following up on this idea, I continued to examine the index looking for every case where something was set up as an equation, where the likeness of something was said to be the likeness of some other thing. And in every case, it works. You have to example a verse which reads:

"The likeness of this who reject our signs is as the likeness of the dog." (7:176)

Well, the phrase is Arabic for 'the people who reject our signs' could be found in the Qur'an exactly five times. And so is the Arabic word for 'the dog' (al-kalb). And there are several instances of exactly the same occurrence.

It was some months after I found this for myself that a friend of mine, who is continuing this investigation with me, made a suggestion that there are also some places in the Qur'an where one thing is said to be not like another thing.

As soon as he mentioned this up to me, we both went for the index and had a quick look at several places where on thing is said to be not like another thing and counted their occurrence in the Qur'an. We were surprise and maybe should not have been to find that, after all, they do not match up. But an interesting thing does happen. For example, the Qur'an makes it very clear in the verse that trade is not like interest. The two words will be found six times for on and seven for the other. And so it is in every other case.

When one thing is said to be not like another, they over for a difference of one time. It would be five of one and four of the other, or seven of one and eight of another.

Good and Evil
There is one interesting verse which, I felt, spoke directly to me from right off the page. It mentions two words in Arabic, al-khabeeth (the evil), and al-taib (the good). The verse reads:

"Say, the evil and the good are not comparable, even though the abundance of evil will surprise you. So be mindful of your duty to Allah, O Man of understanding that you may succeed."(5:100)

Well, I had a look at those two words in Arabic, the evil and the food, and found it in the Qur'an that they both occur seven times. Yet the verse here is saying that they are not comparable. I should not expect to find that they occur the same number of times. But what does the rest of this verse say?

"The evil and the good are not comparable. The abundance of the evil will surprise you" and it did for there were too many of them. But it continues:

"So be mindful of your duty to Allah, O Man of understanding, that you may succeed."

So press on. Use your understanding and you will succeed. That is what the verse said to me. Well, I found the answer in one verse further on where it reads:

"Allah separates the evil from the good. The evil HE piles one on top of the other, heaping them all together."

Here is the solution to the difficulty. While we have several occurrences of al-taif (the good), according to the principle of this verse, evil is separated from good and is piled one on top of the other and heaped all together. We can not count them as seven separate instances

Occurrences of Words
A favorite difficulty, or supposed difficulty, which critics like to cite or have cited in the past years concerning the Qur'an is that, apparently to their thinking, the author of this book was ignorant because he advised the Muslims to follow the lunar instead of the solar year. The critics say the author was unaware of the difference in the length of years, that if one follows twelve lunar months one loses eleven days every year.

The author of the Qur'an was well aware of the distinction between the length of the solar year and the lunar year. In chapter eighteen, verse nine, it mentions three-hundred years and gives their equivalent as three-hundred and nine years. As it happens, three hundred solar years is equal to three -hundred and nine lunar years. Let us go back to my original scheme of the occurrence of words in the Qur'an. The Arabic word for 'month', shahar, will be found twelve times in the Qur'an. There are twelve months in a year. If we find twelve months, how many days should we expect to find? The word in Arabic is yaqum, and as it happens you will find that the word occurs three-hundred and sixty five time in the Qur'an.

As a matter of fact, the original issue which had me interest in looking up the occurrence of months and days was this distinction between the solar year and the lunar year. Well, for twenty-five centuries it has been known that the relative positions of the sun, moon and earth coincide every nineteen years. This was discovered by a Greek by the name of Meton, and it is called the 'Metonic' cycle. Knowing this, I looked again to the index for the word 'year', sanah and found, sure enough, that it occurs in the Qur'an nineteen times.

Perfect balance of Words
Now, what is the point of this perfect balance of words? For myself, it shows the author was well aware of the distinction between using words and mentioning words, a fine logical point. But more than that, it indicates the preservation of this book.

After giving a lecture on the subject of the Qur'an , I touched on some of these subjects and a questionnaire from the audience afterwards said: "How do we know we still have the original Qur'an. Maybe pieces of it have been lost or extra parts been added?" I pointed out to him that we had pretty well covered that point because since these items, the perfect balance of words in the Qur'an, have come to light only in this generation, anybody who would have lost the portion of this book, hidden some of it, or added some of their own would have been unaware of this carefully hidden code in the book. They would have destroyed this perfect balance.

It is interesting to note too that, well, such a thing might be possible to organize today by the use of a computer to coordinate all words so that whatever thought you might have as to a meaning of a sentence or however you might construe an equation out of a sentence, you could check for yourself and the book will always have the balance of words.

If that were possible today, if it were possible fourteen centuries ago, why would it be done and then left hidden and never drawn to the attention of those who first saw this book? Why it would be left with the hope of the author who contrived this, that maybe in many centuries someone will discover it and have a nice surprise? It is a scheme that does not make sense.

Best Explanation
We are told in the Qur'an that no questionnaire will come to the Muslims with the question for which a good answer has not been provided, and the best explanation for whatever his question. This verse says:

"For everything they say we are given something to go back to them and reply." (25:33)

We looked again to the index of the Qur'an and we found the word, qalu (they say), is found three hundred and thirty-two times. Now, what would be the natural counterpart? The Arabic word, qul, which is the command 'say' and you will find at the index it also occurs three hundred and thirty-two times


I strongly advise you to read the rest of the extract. The full version can be found here, worth a read - http://members.tripod.com/saif_w/exp...n%20of%20Words
Reply

cool_jannah
02-28-2006, 08:44 PM
I can give you many more such proofs about the truth of Qur'an and Islam:
make sure you read this and approach with an open mind, otherwise...even if you give a person thousand proofs...he will not accept itbecause of his bias
just follow the links:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/
http://www.beconvinced.com/en/main.php
http://www.quran.net/
http://www.hyahya.org/c_miracles_quran.php
http://www.sultan.org/articles/QScience.html
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive...no=1&thelang=E
http://www.discover-islam-online.com/article3.htm

and there are many more
you should listen to some good debates online on www.aswatalislam.net
by zakir naik and ahmed deedat
Reply

czgibson
02-28-2006, 09:00 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by cool_jannah
I can give you many more such proofs about the truth of Qur'an and Islam:
make sure you read this and approach with an open mind, otherwise...even if you give a person thousand proofs...he will not accept itbecause of his bias
I suppose you'd call me biased, but I wouldn't even call any of these articles proofs, since they attempt to persuade the reader of something that is unprovable.

If any genuine proof of the existence of god were to be found, then everyone would believe in god; if any proof of the non-existence of god were found, then everyone would have that view.

It's quite silly the way Muslims keep on using the word 'proof' to describe articles such as this because they are plainly no such thing.

Peace
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-28-2006, 10:00 PM
:sl: CoolJannah,
Please do not simply copy-paste articles onto the forum. This forum is for discussion.

:w:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-28-2006, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I suppose you'd call me biased, but I wouldn't even call any of these articles proofs, since they attempt to persuade the reader of something that is unprovable.
I think one has to decide what it suitable proof, or to be more precise, what is suitable evidence, before they can proceed to analyze the evidence. I have presented a list of evidence in this thread, the topic currently being discussed is word repetitions in the Qur'an.

Peace
Reply

cool_jannah
03-01-2006, 12:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson


I suppose you'd call me biased, but I wouldn't even call any of these articles proofs, since they attempt to persuade the reader of something that is unprovable.
Well that's your personal opinion...i dunno what is your definition of proof is then:? ...u haven't even looked at those links yet i guess...
as i told you earlier....your Creator has warned you of a painful punishment in the afterlife...none but you are solely responsible for it!
If you die as a disbeliever...your abode will be the Hell fire forever...

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson

If any genuine proof of the existence of god were to be found, then everyone would believe in god; if any proof of the non-existence of god were found, then everyone would have that view.
again you are wrong...the signs of God's existence is for the men of understanding....
and by the way the 'athiests' also worship 'their god'....dont tell me that you dont worship anything...
the things that you worship are
your desires,money, sex, comfort...and so on...not caring about what your Creators Laws have to say about it...
this is the real test my friend!
you believe in the UNSEEN MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE...THE ONE TO WHOM EVERYTHING BELONGS..AND THUS APPRECIATE AND RECOGNIZE HIS GREATNESS...
otherwise there is no compulsion in religion as the Glorious Qur'an says in one of its verses..
you are choosing your own fate in the afterlife...either burn in fire forever or
live a peaceful life forever!
and if you ask me why and what makes us think that we will be born again?
well..heres the answer-- what made you create and come into existence in the first place--????? were you not something which was nothing to be remembered 100 years ago??? what were you my friend before you were born?? if you could answer this to me...i would really appreciate your intelligence

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
It's quite silly the way Muslims keep on using the word 'proof' to describe articles such as this because they are plainly no such thing.

Peace
you dont make any sense...im sorry
Reply

mahdisoldier19
03-01-2006, 12:16 AM
I dont know what it takes but Common Sense,

If a Man in Arabia 1400 years ago Is revealed A Poetic Literature that at that time was Considered and today considered the Most Highest Elequency of Arabic and Literature that no one today not even English scholars can translate exactly Also in which, Modern science has had established scientific facts, That has been Proposed in the Quran 1400 years ago at a time of arrogancy and Idiol worshipping. Also where science was completely lost in that part of Arabia. If you dont agree with such a Glorious book that outlines all properties of life to Military to Peaceful approaches,also a Glorious Book that all of Arabic developed and derived from it. What will it take?
Reply

i_m_tipu
03-01-2006, 04:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by bezimany 071
salaam.....im sorry about that, but it works fine on my comp.....and i tried it at work too.....it has flash intro so maybe thats why it doesnt work on your comphttp://www.-----------------------/film.html
still not working
if the site require anything
it should give msg:X
unless how can user use properly
anyway
jajakAllaah onece again to u and other
Reply

i_m_tipu
03-01-2006, 04:52 AM
:sl:
The miracle of Quran have been discovering by the billions (scholar, muslim, researcher etc etc) for 1400 yrs

amaging thing is that still people r amazed by its (Holly Quran) miracle & InsAllaah it will amzed people (belever & nonbeleiver) TILL THE WORLD EXITS
no dough whatsoever!!

AL-MUSALAT, VERSE 50: Then in what statement after this (THE QUR'AN) will they believe? :)
Reply

lyesh
03-01-2006, 09:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lyesh
"And if you are in doubt about what We have revealed (the Quran) to Our worshiper (Muhammad ), then produce a chapter like it, and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah if you are truthful. And if you do not do it, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones. It has been prepared for disbelievers. And give good news (O Muhammad) to those who believe and do good deeds, that for them are gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow.... " ( Quran, 2:23-25)

So, If u have any doubt about Quran Why don't u clear it out! God has challenged you! Produce even one chapter of the Quran! You never can and you never will!!!!

Ever since the Quran was revealed, fourteen centuries ago, until this day, no one has been able to produce a single chapter like the chapters of the Quran in their beauty, eloquence, splendor, wise legislation, true information, true prophecy, and other perfect attributes of the Quran. Also note that the smallest chapter in the Quran (Chapter 108) is only ten words, yet no one has ever been able to meet this challenge, then or today. Some of the disbelieving Arabs who were enemies of the Prophet Muhammad tried to meet this challenge to prove that Muhammad was not a true prophet, but they failed to do so. This failure was despite the fact that the Quran was revealed in their own language and dialect, and that the Arabs at the time of Muhammad were a very eloquent people who use to compose beautiful and excellent poetry, still read and appreciated today.

Please answer this one!
Reply

cool_jannah
03-01-2006, 03:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by izmi
Cool Jannah

Do not forget that you are running the same risk to end up in hell. In the Christian view you are doomed if you do not accept Jesus as God and your saviour.
produce your proof if you speak the truth!
it has been prooven by christian scholars themselves that Jesus was not God
make up your mind ppl.?? half the christians i talk to say jesus is god and the other half opposes that ideology...i mean atleast get to know who your god is before you die!

those who say that jesus is god are plain liars.
Reply

أحمد
03-01-2006, 03:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

I suppose you'd call me biased, but I wouldn't even call any of these articles proofs, since they attempt to persuade the reader of something that is unprovable.

If any genuine proof of the existence of god were to be found, then everyone would believe in god; if any proof of the non-existence of god were found, then everyone would have that view.

It's quite silly the way Muslims keep on using the word 'proof' to describe articles such as this because they are plainly no such thing.

Peace
:sl:

:) May Allah guide you to the straight path.

Firstly on the concept of proof, logic, science and the common perception of purpose. In your understanding, you fail to see that your idea of proof is confined to what you desire that should be or not. As much of a stupid thing it would be for me to first try to figure out whether or not you exist, before answering your question. In the very same way; you are given guidance by Allah, you choose to believe or to disbelieve. It is but a mere sense of justifying your own desires through the rejection of His existence.

:w:
Reply

czgibson
03-01-2006, 07:05 PM
Greetings cool_jannah,
format_quote Originally Posted by cool_jannah
Well that's your personal opinion...i dunno what is your definition of proof is then:?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=proof

(i.e. not my personal opinion.)

...u haven't even looked at those links yet i guess...
What gives you that idea? Of course I have.

as i told you earlier....your Creator has warned you of a painful punishment in the afterlife...none but you are solely responsible for it!
If you die as a disbeliever...your abode will be the Hell fire forever...
Well, thank you. Trying to frighten me into believing is sure to work.

again you are wrong...the signs of God's existence is for the men of understanding....
So now I'm stupid. Great! Your arguments get better and better.

and by the way the 'athiests' also worship 'their god'....dont tell me that you dont worship anything...
I don't worship anything unobservable that rules my life...

the things that you worship are
your desires,money, sex, comfort...and so on...
No, I worship art, literature, music and learning. Please don't assume you know what I think.

you believe in the UNSEEN MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE...THE ONE TO WHOM EVERYTHING BELONGS..AND THUS APPRECIATE AND RECOGNIZE HIS GREATNESS...
Um, what? You do know I'm an atheist, right?

otherwise there is no compulsion in religion as the Glorious Qur'an says in one of its verses..
Apart from you trying to frighten me, insulting me and telling me what I think and believe, it seems.

you are choosing your own fate in the afterlife...either burn in fire forever or
live a peaceful life forever!
Generally, I'd say most atheists don't believe in the afterlife, so it's not that much of a worry.

and if you ask me why and what makes us think that we will be born again?
well..heres the answer-- what made you create and come into existence in the first place--?????
What made me create what?

My parents caused me to come into existence.

were you not something which was nothing to be remembered 100 years ago???what were you my friend before you were born?? if you could answer this to me...i would really appreciate your intelligence
A foetus, a zygote, a sperm and an egg, and before that nothing but the genetic code that has existed within my ancestors through the millenia.

you dont make any sense...im sorry
Hopefully I've made things a bit clearer now.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
Firstly on the concept of proof, logic, science and the common perception of purpose. In your understanding, you fail to see that your idea of proof is confined to what you desire that should be or not.
See the definitions in the links given above - I didn't write them.

As much of a stupid thing it would be for me to first try to figure out whether or not you exist, before answering your question.
What would that have to do with anything and why would it be stupid? It's an important philosophical question.

In the very same way; you are given guidance by Allah, you choose to believe or to disbelieve.
Don't forget: you believe it's from Allah; I don't believe Allah even exists.

It is but a mere sense of justifying your own desires through the rejection of His existence.
Why do I find it more desirable that Allah doesn't exist? How do you know what my desires are?

Peace
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
03-01-2006, 10:40 PM
:sl:

As a Muslim, I believe Allah exists. However, as the Qur'an asks man to ponder over creation, what specific arguments or conclusive evidence could you suggest in explicitly proving with irrefutable proof that:

The Qur'an is the word of god.

That God exists.

To prove that the Qur’an is the Word of Allah, you do not have to indulge into futile discussions or philosophical dialect. You have at your disposal a “living material evidence,” the Qur’an itself. Starting with the null hypothesis, i.e., assuming that the Qur’an is not the word of God, one should ask himself: could a human being in the seventh century write such a book? Or does there exist—up till today—any book that is claimed to match the Qur’an?

Let us examine the Qur’an more closely. Starting with the content, could the knowledge therein have been within the reach of any human source, i.e., the Prophet Muhammad, his contemporaries, or the whole human civilization and for several centuries ahead? How could a book revealed at that point of history refer —in precise terms—to scientific phenomena and historical events—prior and subsequent—that were unknown or misunderstood before their subsequent verification?

These Qur’anic references cover such wide spectrum of topics as the nature of space, relativity of time, the shape and motion of the earth, the role of mountains, water for life, the water cycle, the sources of rivers and groundwater, sea depths, embryology, hygiene and proper health practices, prophecies fulfilled (after revelation), etc.

As to the form of the Qur’an—i.e., linguistic and literary features—any strict comparative analysis identifies the Qur’an to be not only superior to any other text—preceding or following, including the sayings of the Prophet himself, who received and delivered the revelation—but also to be a perfect, flawless and the most eloquent composition. This perfection can be witnessed and proved on the levels of the individual words (semantics), sentence (grammar and rhetoric), and whole surahs (chapters).

Thorough examination of the Qur’an shows that each of these elements was selected and phrased in the most appropriate manner to fulfill the most precise meaning and most effective impact, whether cognitive, psychological, passionate, or phonic, on the reader or listener. The Qur’an challenges mankind, Arabs and non-Arabs, to the end of time, to produce anything like or compared to itself. And so it is proved.

All that said can in itself be enough to answer your second question as to the existence of Allah Almighty. If the Qur’an is the true undisputed word of Allah, then it follows that whatever is in it is the absolute unquestionable truth.

Over the millennia, philosophers’ attempts to agree, through abstract arguments alone, on the existence of God, His attributes, and the way He interacts with His creatures, have all been futile. The human mind can only observe, measure, compare, correlate, and hence theorize, within the limited capacities created in Man, and no more.

Our senses have limits. For example, we can see only those bodies emanating light in the wavelength range of 0.4 to 0.7 microns, and can hear only those sounds in the frequency range of 2500 to 4000 cycle per second. In time and space our perception is limited by the velocity of light, since the visible universe is so wide as to be measured in billions of light years. This means that what we will ever see—however advanced our technology is—are only images from the far-deep past. Also, what we can see is essentially no more than an extremely minute fraction of the real existence.

We can know Allah as the Creator and Sustainer of this universe through His detectable creation. The harmonious “intelligent” physical systems in our bodies and other biological species (plant or animal), in matter in general (viewed at the sub-atomic or cosmic levels) boldly manifest the purposeful design, endless diversity, and sustainable precise running of all these systems. Allah only is the One God Who can consistently create and sustain such a marvelous, harmonious universe like this. Praise be to Him!

Abstract philosophical thinking alone could never and can never conclusively prove or disprove the presence and attributes of God. Proving the existence of God is and should always be beyond the reach of human philosophy. Philosophy cannot—in itself—produce or create knowledge, but only through concrete observations together with sensible percepts can it offer any sound conclusion.

REASON FOR THE MIRACLE OF QURAN

Verse 74:31 gives five reasons for the miracle of the Quran with number 19 as the common denominator.


1. To disturb the disbelievers.

2. To convince the Christians and the Jews (that this is divine scripture).

3. To strengthen the faith of the faithful.

4. To remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers; and

5. To expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; who will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" (or "So What?").

I hope my answer is clear and satisfactory.

Inshallah

Fatima :sister:
Reply

Herostratos
03-03-2006, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
What do you mean when you say the New testament is 'followed' ? What religious practices/laws/directives are given in the New Testament?
In terms of people calling it their holy book.
It may not have as many directives, but I think the idea is that you are to follow Jesus' example.
And the directives of the Qu'ran aren't being followed very good either, it seems... Whenever anyone points out cruel actions performed in the name of allah, you say they have misunderstood the koran(and thus the laws)...
(by the way what is most correct; Qu'ran or koran?)
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I agree that numbers do not determine what is right or wrong, but the issue here is the distinction of the Qur'an over other books, so it is not irrelevant. The challenge is simple - what other book has been taken by people as the constitution of their lives? And I'm not speaking about the legislation of a country, but an actual body of guidance for every aspect in one's life.
The new testament. Although the new testament is far more liberal, has fewer rules etc. it is taken as a guide by alot of people.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
As I said before, the legitimate differences are minor; the differences you're speaking of are resulting from ignorance on what the Qur'an says, and the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, not any ambiguity in them.
Pardon me? Isn't the koran the most memorized book in the world?
How come so many are ignorant of it's clear message? And doesn't the mullahs know what the koran says?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Comprehensive is not the same as long. By comprehensive I mean that the Qur'an provides us with guidance in every aspect of our lives.
OK. Here's a book that I think offers a much better and much more comprehensive, not to say logical, guide: The childrens book "cardamom town". In cardamom town, the chief constable (only constable in town) says that

"Man skal ikke skade andre,
man skal være grei og snill,
og forøvrig kan man gjøre som man vil."


Which means(roughly):
"You shall not hurt others, you shall be kind and nice[to people] and besides you can do whatever you want to"
Indeed a better guide!
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I'm not talking about arabs. I'm talking about Muslims, whether they be as far apart as Indonesia and Morrocco - the fact is that the Qur'an is the only book which is memorized so widely and so easily.
OK, muslem culture then. The religion/culture of islam emphazises memorization.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
No, the knowledge is not hidden, anyone may purchase the book, but you have to make an effort. For online links on the Qur'an's preservation, there is some material available here:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/
It is a custom on the internet that people hall do an effort to understand the other persons view, even read the links he bring up, yes. This is good.

However, there is no forum I've been to where there is custom to demand that the other person shall spend money at a book the other person wants him to read... Not to mention that the book is not even in my native language. Demanding that the other person shall read a book, even if it si on internet, is also kinda unusual(and unpractical, for obvious reasons).
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Let's say that there's equally many cats as there is dogs. Then let's say that the prophet mentioned "cats" twice as many times as he mentioned "dogs". Is this a disproof of his divinity?
Muslims do not believe the Prophet is divine!!
Nitpicking...
OK, I stand corrected, but I think you understood my point, I think. Is it possible to disprove the koran using word repetitions? Is there any set of rules that you can apply to check a word repetition's validity?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
http://www.islamicboard.com/172587-post14.html (Word repetitions in the Qur'an)
http://www.islamicboard.com/171261-post12.html (Word repetitions in the Qur'an)
http://www.islamicboard.com/170015-post7.html (Word repetitions in the Qur'an)
These were pretty unimpressive... "7 heavens" are mentioned 7 times, OK... But what about "72 virgins"? And the word "dogs" may be mentioned the same number as the number of unbelieving nations, but are the word "dogs" mentioned in the same proportion to the word "rats" as there are rats in the world?
Can any word repetition be used to disprove the koran?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The Qur'an has not prescribed a punishment for blasphemers in an Islamic state, so this has nothing to do with the Qur'an's clarity. The issue here depends on the circumstances.
I said, not punish blasphemy at all. This implies anywhere, anytime. So it does have something to do with the clarity.

format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Herostratos,

Thanks for coming to the fight! And you even quoted me in one post! I feel really proud.
:) Hello, :)
and thanks for fighting urself :P although I don't like to speak of it as a fight, it has a tendency to polarize the positions (even more)
Sorry for replying so late, but I had one mean week....
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
I am sure you and I might disagree on many things (as it is normal among people who think freely)
Oh, you bet on it. As a libertarian atheist, not to mention blatantly politically incorrect, I usually disagree with almost everyone :=) But lets focus on what we agree upon now....
Reply

Herostratos
03-03-2006, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lyesh
Originally Posted by lyesh View Original
"And if you are in doubt about what We have revealed (the Quran) to Our worshiper (Muhammad ), then produce a chapter like it, and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah if you are truthful. And if you do not do it, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones. It has been prepared for disbelievers. And give good news (O Muhammad) to those who believe and do good deeds, that for them are gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow.... " ( Quran, 2:23-25)

So, If u have any doubt about Quran Why don't u clear it out! God has challenged you! Produce even one chapter of the Quran! You never can and you never will!!!!

Ever since the Quran was revealed, fourteen centuries ago, until this day, no one has been able to produce a single chapter like the chapters of the Quran in their beauty, eloquence, splendor, wise legislation, true information, true prophecy, and other perfect attributes of the Quran. Also note that the smallest chapter in the Quran (Chapter 108) is only ten words, yet no one has ever been able to meet this challenge, then or today. Some of the disbelieving Arabs who were enemies of the Prophet Muhammad tried to meet this challenge to prove that Muhammad was not a true prophet, but they failed to do so. This failure was despite the fact that the Quran was revealed in their own language and dialect, and that the Arabs at the time of Muhammad were a very eloquent people who use to compose beautiful and excellent poetry, still read and appreciated today.

Please answer this one!
On what objective criterias shall the text be judged?
(in case you did not know, an objective criteria is close to impossible to find in order to judge what is "beauty, eloquence, splendor, wise legislation,"

And certainly you would never find a Christian trying to prove his belief by counting words in the Bible.
Because the Bible simply isn't miraculous like the Qur'an.
Never say never :P I have to disagree here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Panin.
However, this means Ansar should answer to all of the numerogical miracles in the bible...
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-04-2006, 03:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Herostratos
In terms of people calling it their holy book.
It may not have as many directives, but I think the idea is that you are to follow Jesus' example.
As I pointed out earlier, I'm not talking about the numbers of people who recognize the New Testament, or other scriptures as their 'holy book'. I'm speaking of those people who take [or desire/attempt to take] the Qur'anic guidance and directives as the consitution upon which they construct their lives. The 'example' of Jesus is not comparable. "Be good to people" ?

And the directives of the Qu'ran aren't being followed very good either, it seems... Whenever anyone points out cruel actions performed in the name of allah, you say they have misunderstood the koran(and thus the laws)...
Of course I'm not denying the fact that many Muslims are not practing Islam properly and are ignorant of many of its teachings. I never intended to take numbers as proof from the start. If you look at the original point, it was that the Qur'an was universal, and this is illustrated by the fact that it has been accepted as the system by which to regulate one's life, by people of all different enthnicities and cultures. Notice I say system, i.e. a set of directives and guidance. Not just, "accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour".

(by the way what is most correct; Qu'ran or koran?)
The most accurate transliteration of the arabic word would be Qur'ân or Qur'aan, or the most commonly used: Qur'an.

The new testament. Although the new testament is far more liberal, has fewer rules etc. it is taken as a guide by alot of people.
As I pointed out before, the New Testament is not a system of directives and regulations by which to conduct one's life.

Pardon me? Isn't the koran the most memorized book in the world?
How come so many are ignorant of it's clear message?
Most Huffadh (people who have memorized the entire Qur'an) understand its message, and are therefore not ignorant. But many Muslims who have memorized a handful of Surahs have not studied Islam at an academic level, and that is why they are ignorant of many of its teachings. They just take what they hear from one place, and what they read in another, and then they formulate their whole conclusions and ideas based on that without studying it in context and looking at other relevant details.
And doesn't the mullahs know what the koran says?
First, which 'mullahs' are you talking about? Second, one does not become an Islamic scholar simply after memorizing surahs from the Qur'an. They need to study the hadith and the principles of islamic jurisprudence as well as other islamic sciences, in order to find all the relevant information before drawing their conclusions.

OK. Here's a book that I think offers a much better and much more comprehensive, not to say logical, guide: The childrens book "cardamom town". In cardamom town, the chief constable (only constable in town) says that

"Man skal ikke skade andre,
man skal være grei og snill,
og forøvrig kan man gjøre som man vil."


Which means(roughly):
"You shall not hurt others, you shall be kind and nice[to people] and besides you can do whatever you want to"
Indeed a better guide!
You claimed that this is a) much better and b) much more comprehensive.

As for a), then the following passages of the Qur'an are far superior in giving this kind of moral guidance:
The Qur'an tells us to be good to those who are bad to us, to show love to even the hateful, and if we do this, we will find our enemies transform into good friends:
41:34 Not equal are the good deed and the evil deed. Repel the evil deed with one that is good, and behold, the one between whom and thyself was enmity will become a close, compassionate friend.

The Qur'an tells us to swallow our anger and show kindness and be forgiving to all humanity:
3:133-1344 March forth in the way (which leads to) forgiveness from your Lord, and for Paradise as vast as the heavens and the earth, prepared for the pious. Those who spend [in Allah's cause] in prosperity and in adversity, who repress anger, and who are forgiving toward mankind; verily, Allah loves the virtuous.

The Qur'an commands Muslims to respond peacefully to the ignorant who abuse them or address them in a foul manner:
25:63 And the true servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk the earth with humility and when the ill-mannered address them they respond with words of peace and gentleness.

I could quote more verses but I think I've illustrated my point.

Your second point b) is also inaccurate, for you have only provided an example of very general moral instruction. There is no mention in your example of a code of morals one should seek to adhere to, much less direction in other spheres of life such as spiritual, mental, societal, economic, political, environmental, etc.

OK, muslem culture then. The religion/culture of islam emphazises memorization.
First, there's not a culture you can identify here. Secondly, yes the religion of Islam emphasizes education, studying, memorizing, exploring, inquiring, analysing, and implementing, but that doesn't change my point. The Qur'an fits in one's mind like a key in a lock.

However, there is no forum I've been to where there is custom to demand that the other person shall spend money at a book the other person wants him to read...
I assume that I am conversing with objective researchers who are willing to spend the time and resources in order to engage in a more advanced and sophisticated discussion of the evidence. I assume that I am not conversing with someone who has no serious desire to study the material and simply wants to argue their opinion. Nevertheless, I did provide links, so I don't see what there is to complain about. If you seriously wish to learn the material then I've referred you to the best source on the topic.

Not to mention that the book is not even in my native language.
Out of curiosity, what is your native language?

Is it possible to disprove the koran using word repetitions? Is there any set of rules that you can apply to check a word repetition's validity?
Sure. Look up the references I provide and see if they are correct. Or find if there are other mentions of the word that are not included in the count.

Now that we've come to the topic of word repetitions, I thought I should probably direct your attention to a MAJOR one that has been confirmed by myself recently:
http://www.islamicboard.com/198655-post20.html
Mention of Dunya (life of this world) = 115 times
Mentions of Aakhirah (next life) = 115 times

With such a big number there is no way this could be a coincidence!

But what about "72 virgins"?
"72 virgins" are not mentioned in the Qur'an! I strongly suggest you familiarize yourself with the Qur'an's content before attempting to challenge its divine authorship! How can you claim to be an objective researcher if you do not do so?
And the word "dogs" may be mentioned the same number as the number of unbelieving nations, but are the word "dogs" mentioned in the same proportion to the word "rats" as there are rats in the world?
Where in the Qur'an does it say that the likeness/similtude of a dog is that of a rat?! The numerical miralce I pointed out makes sense because the Qur'an says that the likeness of a disbeliving nation is that of a dog.

Can any word repetition be used to disprove the koran?
You can try to disprove word repetitions, but it doesn't make sense to use word repetitions to disprove the Qur'an, since they are inherently either evidence in favour of a scripture or neutral.

I said, not punish blasphemy at all. This implies anywhere, anytime. So it does have something to do with the clarity.
I just told you that it isn't in the Qur'an, and you say that the Qur'an has a lack of clarity! Punishment of blasphemy is an issue explored in the hadith, so it has nothing to do with the clarity of the Qur'an.

although I don't like to speak of it as a fight, it has a tendency to polarize the positions (even more)
I would agree. We may get into heated discussions sometimes, but we're not fighting, we are (or are at least trying to) maintain an objective intellectual discussion to determine the truth.

Regards
Reply

Turin Turambar
03-04-2006, 04:16 AM
Herostratos,

Hello! Thanks for you reply. Sure, lets focus on what we agree on, such as the use of normal human reason as a way to discover the truth. Great to have you here.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-04-2006, 04:31 PM
Hi Turin,
Waiting for your response.
Reply

i_m_tipu
03-05-2006, 10:50 AM
First i like to Appreciate for the post of bro Ansar Al-'Adl.

To all who believe Qur'an is not the word of God
In the name of Allaah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

IF u does not believe in Qur’an Then u do not believe Prophet Mohammed (pubh) as a Prophet as well... Is not it?

Then I have a Question
Q1: Do u believe God had send lot of Prophets (Massager of God) as a human to a various nations?

If ans is no… no need for further discuss

If answer is yes then
Q2: Why did God send so many?

I do not know what ur ans would be

God or any creator wants his creation should act according to his law…. Doesn’t it true?

God give Massage to nations by his Massagers (Prophet).
A Prophet’s job is to restore God’s law, fight against the dark law, tell his nation thing what God had forbidden and bad. And tell the people what he is commanded to tell and set an example in his life in order to be followed by others.

So God Sent Prophets to gave knowledge to the human being about all the thing (How should human lead his life, about the forbidden and allowed thing, true, false, bad, good, dark, light, nature, science etc).

But People changed the law of God after the death of Prophet and established their law…..why?...Bcoz it is the Satan (Evil) don’t want human to follow God law. He (Satan) convinces people to create confusion, close their open mind (etc, etc) and make them to change the law which is from God and make them to worship human or other thing (what is made by human but none) instead of God.

Then God Sent Prophets again with a better vision of his massage to restore the light and destroy the dark.

Thus God had being giving Massage to various Massagers to various nations.

God updated his law (better vision of His law) to the next Prophet and God had been continuing to do it until it is Completed or not needed.

So it is very clear that it is an act of nonsense to lead ur life according to the book of God (early version) which is changed by human (there is do doubt, there r so many contradictions, so many example to give, also there so many rabbis thing that God can not told in his Book (i.e. pornography, X related or something totally false (i.e. earth is flat or it is like egg shape etc) or can not honor any person who is bad.))
Even thou people do not understand. They say we r believe what is come to me by my father, forefather…. (They simply don’t want to open their mind)
I call them poorest people on earth (bcoz they sacrifice, fight and lead their life for nothing).

U has to do what ever God says
But wonder is that is He says any dark thing to u or any thing what is not good at all or any thing what has no based at all?...Never.

U would say how u can say it absolutely… I say

No other book of God except the Qur'an that prove me toady God can’t talk false or rabbis thing
It talks the absolute future also absolute past, science etc ctc that has proven by many scholar, scientist, philosopher, historian etc.

-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the past is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the future is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the philosophy is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the biology is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the science is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the geography is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the medical science is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the solar system is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the Astronomy is absolutely accurate
-+ there is no such word in the Qur'an is rabbis
-+ there is no such word in the Qur'an is not meaningful
-+ there is no such copy of Qur'an is changed (edited or tampering by human, Allaah promised to protect Qur'an until the earth exits).
-+ the word, the verse of Qur'an is so accurately arrange it’s so miracle and I give u a challenge that no other book on earth contain it’s word so mathematically. It’s really a miracle.

Is their any thing left?? (Lot of thing left)

I have more amazing thing to tell u. According to ur vision It must written by Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) but how can it be? he is a illiterate man (either read nor write). Confused??

Prophet Muhammad (puph) was forty when, during his one of many retreats to Mount Hira for meditation during the month of Ramadan, he received the first revelation from the Archangel Jibril (Gabriel). On this first appearance, Gabriel (as) said to Muhammad: "Iqraa," meaning Read or Recite. Prophet replied, "I cannot read," as he had not received any formal education and did not know how to read or write. The Angel Gabriel then embraced him until he reached the limit of his endurance and after releasing said: "Iqraa." Prophet’s answer was the same as before. Gabriel repeated the embrace for the third time, asked him to repeat after him and said:

"Recite in the name of your Lord who created! He created man from that which clings. Recite; and thy Lord is most Bountiful, He who has taught by the pen, taught man what he knew not."

These revelations are the first five verses of Surah (chapter) 96 of the Qur’an. Thus it was in the year 610 CE the revelation began.

I thing it is enough for child to aged, illiterate to scholar or any one not believe in God to tell this Book can not be written by Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). Who write it??

If u analyzes history u found every Prophet except Prophet Adam (pbuh) (first Prophet also first human of the earth) that not welcomed by people also never people trusted their word which is from God at beginning. Then people (who r chosen by God) see some sign, miracle or something light in the Prophet Act, word, appearance etc. and beginning to believe what Prophet believe. After many sacrifice religion is established. Isn’t it?

Prophet Mohammad (pubh) and Islam had the same sign what the earlier prophet had. Not agree? Then pls research the history.

U thinks Islam is his (Prophet Mohammad (pubh)) personal vision? U must know how Prophet Mohammad (pubh) led his life. He had a great power. Muslim believes what he believes. Muslim follows what he follows. Muslim does what he used to do. Is there any other great power than he had? If yes I wonder what that would be.
So its a simple logic told me that he had a luxurious life, dictating his people, unjust the people to honor his will etc.

But I m afraid I would disappoint u again.

Pls do check this (I really don’t want to sized this post of 500 pages)
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...scription.html
If this is not enough for u about the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) then ask me for further info.

If the above things not make u to say that Qur’an is the book of God then I really wonder what statement is required after this…and I really should say u pls say goodbye religion goodbye believe in God.

Allaah says Qur’an is the complete book of God (best & complete vision of God law) and Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the last and the best Massager of all. He is not for any nation but for the whole world.

At last I say Allaah know the best.
(May Allaah forgive me if I lower or over react anywhere in this post)
Reply

i_m_tipu
03-07-2006, 07:30 AM
Disappointed No Answer or reply :X :X :X
Whatsoever :X :X :X
it is nearly 4 days :X :X :X
Reply

czgibson
03-07-2006, 04:21 PM
Greetings,

If the above things not make u to say that Qur’an is the book of God then I really wonder what statement is required after this…and I really should say u pls say goodbye religion goodbye believe in God.
Done!

Peace
Reply

Herostratos
03-08-2006, 02:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Most Huffadh (people who have memorized the entire Qur'an) understand its message, and are therefore not ignorant. But many Muslims who have memorized a handful of Surahs have not studied Islam at an academic level, and that is why they are ignorant of many of its teachings. They just take what they hear from one place, and what they read in another, and then they formulate their whole conclusions and ideas based on that without studying it in context and looking at other relevant details.
Why doesn't these that has read part of the koran listen to those that has memorized it? It is so widely memorized, you say.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
First, which 'mullahs' are you talking about?
Those that are preaching hatred and war, and that are encouraging people to suicide-bomb different targets.

Sorry for keeping you waiting but I have been awfully busy
Then to the New Testament vs. koran thingie....

You arguments is that the koran has many more regulations than the New testamen.

From this, you seem to draw the conclusion that believing in the bible has somehow less faith than those believing in the koran. I cannot see that this is valid reasoning. The christians submit to their religion just as much as muslems, they "accept lord Jesus as their saviour".

And while the New Testament does not have many directives and such, it has certainly shaped the western society. One of the bible verses I think illustrates the difference between Christianity and islam is this:
"17 And Jesus answered and said to them, Then yield ye to the emperor those things that be the emperor's; and to God those things that be of God."
This creates an entirelly other culture than one in which the founder and prophet also was the emperor.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I assume that I am conversing with objective researchers who are willing to spend the time and resources in order to engage in a more advanced and sophisticated discussion of the evidence. I assume that I am not conversing with someone who has no serious desire to study the material and simply wants to argue their opinion. Nevertheless, I did provide links, so I don't see what there is to complain about. If you seriously wish to learn the material then I've referred you to the best source on the topic.
The reason why it is not a custom to buy the books other persons refer to is that if everybody did so they would end up broke. There is written books about everything.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Out of curiosity, what is your native language?
Norwegian.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Sure. Look up the references I provide and see if they are correct. Or find if there are other mentions of the word that are not included in the count.[....]
Can any word repetition be used to disprove the koran?
You can try to disprove word repetitions, but it doesn't make sense to use word repetitions to disprove the Qur'an, since they are inherently either evidence in favour of a scripture or neutral.
(my emphasis).
That is the problem with your logic. You use word repetitions that has accidentally been repeated the same number of times, but there are no rules for which words has to be repeated what number of times, or how these words are supposed to be connected.

That is why the repetitions are invalid. Give me a set of rules. If not, there is only opinions, all of it.

There is so many words in any language, let us say there are 5000 words in arabic(probably there are more) and each of them can be connected with 4999 others.... In a long text as the koran there is a larger possibility more words are mentioned and more patterns can be made...
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-09-2006, 12:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Herostratos
Why doesn't these that has read part of the koran listen to those that has memorized it? It is so widely memorized, you say.
Well that is precisely the issue. Many Muslims today are not following the scholars.
Those that are preaching hatred and war, and that are encouraging people to suicide-bomb different targets.
Anyone preaching hatred and war is not a Muslim scholar. Can you provide examples, please?

From this, you seem to draw the conclusion that believing in the bible has somehow less faith than those believing in the koran. I cannot see that this is valid reasoning.
Neither can I, because I never drew that conclusion in the first place.

The reason why it is not a custom to buy the books other persons refer to is that if everybody did so they would end up broke.
Well, quality research is not cheap.

Norwegian.
Very interesting. :)

That is the problem with your logic. You use word repetitions that has accidentally been repeated the same number of times
This is the issue right here. Your only way of responding to the word repetitions is that they are an accident, i.e. coincidence. That may work for one or two of them, but after that the probability of such an occurance becomes so small that the argument no longer holds, especially when we consider major confirmations like the following:

http://www.islamicboard.com/198655-post20.html
Mention of Dunya (life of this world) = 115 times
Mentions of Aakhirah (next life) = 115 times

With such a big number there is no way to argue coincidence.

If not, there is only opinions, all of it.
Arguing coincidence is possible, but arguing that it is subjective is not since these are concrete facts here and there is no interpretation necessary. I'm not making up an interpretation on how Dunya is connected to Aakhirah, they simply are two opposites, and the fact is they are both repeated exactly 115 times.

There is so many words in any language, let us say there are 5000 words in arabic(probably there are more) and each of them can be connected with 4999 others....
But that is clearly not the case here. If we connect random words the result will not be anything similar. Try it yourself. Flip through an arabic dictionary (or any dictionary if you want to keep this excercise general) and write down the words that you glimpse, into pairs:

furniture - question
jam - perfect
measure - cleaning
breathing - visa

There is no apparent connection in random words, certainly nothing like the connection between Dunya and Aakhirah. And Adam and Eesa have been described in the Qur'an to be alike in the sight of God, so it is actually logical when their names appear in the Qur'an the same number of times.

In a long text as the koran there is a larger possibility more words are mentioned and more patterns can be made...
No, that is not true as I pointed out to turin. If you study combinatorics and probability then you know that in a larger text the number of possibilties increases and the repetitions of words increase as well, making it less likely to find two that repeat an exact number of times.

If you write a sentence and it turns out that two words appear the exact same number of times, no one would consider it extraordinary. But if you write a book, and two words appear the exact same number of times, it would be more special, especially if the number of word repetitions was high.

I expect to be confirming more of the Qur'anic word repetitions soon, inshaa'Allah (God-willing), so you will see even more evidence.

:w:
Reply

Hussein radi
04-16-2006, 08:45 AM
This movie will prove that the quran is indeed gods words.

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_video_de...hp?api_id=1267
Reply

------
04-16-2006, 03:05 PM
Check this link out
Reply

nimrod
04-17-2006, 05:14 AM
Anyone else have a problem with this teaching "God updated his law (better vision of His law)"?

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

------
04-17-2006, 11:13 AM
"God updated his law (better vision of His law)"?
Am lost agen :rollseyes
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-17-2006, 03:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod
Anyone else have a problem with this teaching "God updated his law (better vision of His law)"?

Thanks
Nimrod
Abrogation is explained here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...e_Word_of_God/
See point 2 and 3.

Regards
Reply

mahdisoldier19
04-18-2006, 11:39 PM
Assalam Alaikam,

I think A person has to be completely blind to deny Allah swt Holy Quran

Now i ask any Nonbeliever of the Quran how can an illiterate man Come out with the scientific discovery we find today 1400 years ago about the universe expanding in the following verse.

"The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily. We are expanding it."

Ok now you might question the "We" , the We is actually a royal reference to I, as it was used in reference to other familiar faces as the Royal Family of england and any european royal bloodlines use the term We in reference to "I".

Just that phrase alone should keep anyone who questions the Quran , but these people still persist. Just curious whats the matter with you people?


Sorry editing to add alittle more,

Allah Almighty was very accurate in His claims in the Noble Quran. For instance, science proved that the metal "iron" was not created from earthly material or reactions. Iron was sent by burning stars traveling through space that had collided with earth! When those stars collided with earth and their melted metals cooled down and changed from liquid burned/melted metals to hard solid metals, they formed the metal of what we call today iron.

Let us look at Noble Verse 57:25 "We sent aforetime Our messengers with clear signs and sent down them the Book and the Balance (of right and wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down iron, in which is (material for) Mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, unseen, Him and His messengers: For Allah is Full of strength, exalted in Might (And able to enforce His Will)."
Reply

nimrod
04-19-2006, 02:58 AM
I_m_Tipu “If answer is yes then
Q2: Why did God send so many?”

The state of man is not static, nor has it been. That statement neither endorses nor disproves Islam.

Do you understand?

It might prove helpful to ponder why the Law came about.

Was it always here? What happened to make it necessary? What has happened since the Law was instated?

One of the finer points that may have gone unnoticed for you; The Law had a purpose. Grace has a purpose.

If your point is true that God didn’t get the Law right the first time so somehow we need to be lead back into a better version of it by Islam, what does that say about your opinion of God as a thinker/planner?

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

nimrod
04-19-2006, 03:06 AM
Mahdisoldier “For instance, science proved that the metal "iron" was not created from earthly material or reactions. Iron was sent by burning stars traveling through space that had collided with earth!”

If I understand your post correct you are stating that before the first impact on Earth, earth had no Iron. Is that correct?

Prove that to be reasonably true.

Thanks
Nomrod
Reply

moujahid
04-19-2006, 03:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod

If I understand your post correct you are stating that before the first impact on Earth, earth had no Iron. Is that correct?

Prove that to be reasonably true.
Allah knows best. There is nothing that says that the iron came only from the outer space. Is it not?
Reply

*noor
04-19-2006, 03:53 AM
i dont why somebody wud even ask this question.
its clear that the Quran is definitely the Word of God.
I mean, it is really the only book free of errors and full of guidance.
Reply

mahdisoldier19
04-19-2006, 05:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod
Mahdisoldier “For instance, science proved that the metal "iron" was not created from earthly material or reactions. Iron was sent by burning stars traveling through space that had collided with earth!”

If I understand your post correct you are stating that before the first impact on Earth, earth had no Iron. Is that correct?

Prove that to be reasonably true.

Thanks
Nomrod

what would be the purpose of this answer? For what reason what are you trying to prove?

If you dont want to go on it on a scientific level lets do it contradictory,

In the bible there are over 50 contradictions where in the Quran there is ZERO , Can you explain this?
Reply

i_m_tipu
04-19-2006, 09:01 AM
Peace nimrod

format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod
I_m_Tipu “If answer is yes then
Q2: Why did God send so many?”

The state of man is not static, nor has it been. That statement neither endorses nor disproves Islam.

Do you understand?

It might prove helpful to ponder why the Law came about.

Was it always here? What happened to make it necessary? What has happened since the Law was instated?

One of the finer points that may have gone unnoticed for you; The Law had a purpose. Grace has a purpose.

If your point is true that God didn’t get the Law right the first time so somehow we need to be lead back into a better version of it by Islam, what does that say about your opinion of God as a thinker/planner?

Thanks
Nimrod

i m afraid u did not read carefully


But People changed the law of God after the death of Prophet and established their law…..why?...Bcoz it is the Satan (Evil) don’t want human to follow God law. He (Satan) convinces people to create confusion, close their open mind (etc, etc) and make them to change the law which is from God and make them to worship human or other thing (what is made by human but none) instead of God.

Then God Sent Prophets again with a better vision of his massage to restore the light and destroy the dark.

Thus God had being giving Massage to various Massagers to various nations.

God updated his law (better vision of His law) to the next Prophet and God had been continuing to do it until it is Completed or not needed.
In the name of Allaah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Better vision mean = better understanding vision to the people
also time after time when prophets came in different times
* people expanding their knowledge, different nation have different culture and language make the Law need to be better versioned
(It's my understanding Ofcouse Allaah Know the best)

U should remember
Basic is the same = worship one GOD

Allaah says Qur’an is the complete book of God (best & complete vision of God law) and Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the last and the best Massager of all. He is not for any nation but for the whole world.
The straight path that mention in Qur’ân for human being not for any nation but for the world

6:114
[Say (O Muhammad (SAW))] "Shall I seek a judge other than Allâh while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'ân), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth.So be not you of those who doubt.

6:115
and the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the AllHearer, the AllKnower.

18:109
say (o muhammad SAW to mankind). "If the sea were ink for (writing) the Words of my Lord, surely, the sea would be exhausted before the Words of my Lord would be finished, even if we brought (another sea) like it for its aid."

6:38
There is not a moving (living) creature on earth, nor a bird that flies with its two wings, but are communities like you.We have neglected nothing in the Book, then unto their Lord they (all) shall be gathered.



Prophet Muhammad[PUBH]
He was a man with a noble and exalted mission —and his unique mission was to unite humanity in the worship of the One and only God and to teach them the way to honest and upright living in accordance with the laws and commands of God. He always described himself as a Messenger and servant of God, as indeed every single action and movement of his proclaimed him to be.

The Encyclopedia Britannica calls him "the most successful of all religious personalities of the world."


Bernard Shaw said, "if Muhammad (pbuh) were alive today, he would succeed in solving all those problems which threaten to destroy human civilization in our times."

Thomas Carlysle was amazed as to how one man, single-handedly, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades.

Napoleon and Gandhi never tired of dreaming of a society along the lines established by this man in Arabia fourteen centuries ago.
33:40
Muhammad (SAW) is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allâh and the last (end) of the Prophets. And Allâh is Ever All*Aware of everything.
(Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Manaqib).
The Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) observed: "The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another prophet succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me."
In 632 CE Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) made a final pilgrimage to Mecca with over 100,000 of his followers, and gave his last sermon. He died a few months later at Medina.

Reply

جوري
12-07-2009, 10:34 PM
bump .................................................. ............................................
Reply

IAmZamzam
12-08-2009, 03:09 AM
You can find lots of proof on my website. For example, at these two links are the arguments I'm primarily building on in the book I'm writing:

A Process of Elimination Proving the Koran's Inspiration

How the Koran's Parallels in Various Traditions Actually Validates It
Reply

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