PDA

View Full Version : What is the proof that the Jews corrupted the Torah?



morrissey
04-08-2005, 02:19 AM
As requested, I have begun this query as a new thread:


Hi Ansar, thankyou for linking to this site from J4J....

Above you quote that the Quran has added to what the Jews have in their Torah. The Jews were commanded not to add or subtract from it, yet these differences in your quote above mean possibly 2 things: 1 - The Jews re-wrote their Torah, or 2 - The Quran goes against G-d's commandment not to add or subtract from His Torah. What proof do you have that the Jews re-wrote their Torah? (as in physical/archaeological, without a doubt proof). Someone (even if they claim to be a prophet) just making a 'claim' that they did is just that - an unsubstantiated claim.


Do you know how the Jews have recorded their Torah word-perfect through the centuries, meticulously ensuring each one is identical? (http://www.torah.net/eng/kids/know/torah.htm) Millions of Jews around the world (obviously the majority of whom have never met, so therefore it is impossible for them to conspire) have identical copies of the Torah - if there was a difference it might be in the spelling of a word with the same meaning (eg color/colour in english), and I think the most differences they have ever found between 2 Sefer Torahs is about 9 spelling differences, as I have given in the example of the english word above. If a Torah Scroll is found to have an error, it is forbidden to use it, it is not 'kosher' and has to be religiously disposed of. It is useless.

Why, therefore, is it claimed by your religion that the Jews have corrupted their Torah? From my experience, they are obsessed to the point of almost neurotic that their Torah doesnt become corrupted.

I am not Jewish by the way, I am an ex-christian who has been seeking her true Creator and discovered the pathway to Him through the Teachings of Judaism.

Best wishes
Rebecca

morrissey
04-08-2005, 03:25 AM
http://scheinerman.net/judaism/synagogue/torah.html#how

Also describes the way a Sefer Torah is made.

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-08-2005, 04:47 AM
Well for starters I would like to make a few points:

It is not my intention to offend any Jewish or Christian members through this discussion. I doubt that there is any knowledgeable scholar of the Tanakh or Bible who would claim that it has been preserved. If I do offend anyone, please forgive me as it was not my intention. My belief in this matter is that the present day scriptures have been altered.

Before we begin this discussion, we need to understand some points. What are the attributes of God? How can we distinguish between God's words and those of men. We should have certain expectations of God's revelation correct?

And if anyone wishes to jump ahead in the subject they can take a look at the article posted here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showpost.php?p=15935&postcount=12

Although I intend to take a more in-depth look at the subject.

:w:

morrissey
04-08-2005, 05:28 AM
I read such things as this: http://www.beingjewish.com/unchanged/true_mesorah.html
and I can see how it would be absurd that anything could have been changed.

A snippet from that link:


So: How do we know that the Tradition, that is, the Laws and other Teachings of the Torah, have been transmitted correctly?

Let us examine the method of Transmission of the Torah that Jews have used, as well as other relevant factors. We will see that the way the Torah has been transmitted through the ages makes errors and falsifications impossible.

The first thing to note is that the Torah is not the property of a few people. It is not esoteric or secret knowledge kept in the hands of a secret organization. Every Jew is expected to study Torah. We each have our individual abilities and gifts, and we are all therefore expected to study Torah at the highest level we can attain. (And before I get letters about this, it applies to women too. Women are required to study -- at the very least -- all the Laws that they must fulfill, and today much, much more study and knowledge is expected of them than in years past.)

Some people think the Talmud was written by a few Rabbis plotting together in an attic somewhere, deciding what Jews should do and not do. This is a radical error. It is completely false, and not even close to fact by any means. It was not composed, but recorded, by thousands upon thousands of Rabbis and students working in public, openly discussing all the issues. This ensured the highest safety against errors.

We are a nation of Torah. We have always been, and we always will be. There were times of great oppression, when Torah study was made difficult by the gentile governments around us, but through it all we stuck to it. And not individually -- but en masse. Torah has always been taught publicly. Not, as some seem to think, one little old Rabbi in a basement or dungeon teaching one decrepit geek of a student, neither of whom has any idea of how the common man lives.

The truth is that Rabbis taught the Torah in public, with other Rabbis at their sides, and with thousands of students learning and asking challenging questions. These were Rabbis who usually had jobs in what some people call "the real world," and they came from all sectors of Jewish society. Some were poor, some were rich, but all of them lived the Torah they taught, and lived in the world around them like everyone else.

The Talmud tells us that Rabbi Akiva had twenty-four thousand students. He was not unusual. The Talmud doesn't say he had an inordinately large number of students. No, quite the contrary. In the Torah Academies of Israel and Babylon there were learned Rabbis sitting together in a semi-circle, with all their thousands of students sitting behind them. And the Talmud teaches that every Rabbi should create many, many students (Avos 1:1).

The Talmud says that for a while Rabbi Gamliel of Yavneh would allow entry to the highest Academy in Yavneh only to some students. But then one day that was changed, and they allowed all students to enter. That day, says the Talmud, they had to add seven thousand more benches to the academy! We're not talking about private study here. We're talking about study that involved all the people. An entire nation.

The Talmud says (Sanhedrin 91b) that whoever refuses to teach Torah to another Jew is stealing his inheritance from him. The Torah says, "The Torah that Moses taught us is an inheritance of the Congregation of Jacob" (Deut. 33:4). Therefore, the Torah belongs to all Jews, by ancestral right. Thus, if you refuse to teach a Jew Torah, you are stealing his inheritance, his birthright.

Moreover, say the Talmudic Rabbis, why does the verse use the term "Congregation of Jacob? Why not say, "the Children of Jacob," or "the descendants of Jacob?" It is to teach us, explain the Rabbis, that the Torah should not be kept private, but should be taught in public, with the congregation participating (Midrash Tehillim 1:1).

The Tradition did not begin with the Mishnah and Talmud, of course. Remember, Moses taught the Torah to all of the Children of Israel. As I have written elsewhere, Moses was taught directly by Hashem, every single word of Torah, both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah. Hashem made special arrangements so Moses could ask any question he needed to ask. Hashem taught Moses the Torah passage by passage.

Moses then taught Aharon the High Priest everything he had learned. Then, while Aharon was still sitting there, he called in Aharon's two sons Elazar and Isamar, and he taught them. Then they called in the Seventy Elders and he taught them. Then they called in all the Children of Israel, and Moses taught them. The Children of Israel would write each teaching down.

Then Aharon taught everyone the same passage. Then the two sons of Aharon taught everyone the passage. Then the Elders would teach it. This way, each person learned it at least four times, at several levels. (We can imagine that each probably had their own teaching style as well, which maximized general understanding.) Then people would gather with the leaders and learn with them, reviewing, asking questions, discussing each issue. Every group of ten Jews had a Teacher. Ten groups had a Teacher of that hundred, and ten hundreds had a Teacher of that thousand, and so on. (The Teachers were chosen from the most honorable and learned people to be found.) So again, all this was done in public.

After Moses passed away the Children of Israel continued to study Torah. In the Land of Israel they built yeshivos, and Teachers taught Torah to thousands upon thousands of students constantly. Some yeshivos were smaller, of course. We find, for example, that the Prophet Elisha had at least one hundred students (2 Kings 4:38-44). Students generally searched until they found the best Teacher for them, since people aren't all able to learn at the same level.

We also had, when we all lived in Israel, the Torah's complex system of appellate courts, to guarantee self-correction and various other checks and balances. Each city had a Jewish Court of 23 highly-qualified Judges, who were also required to teach Torah publicly. Jerusalem alone had at least three courts, the Supreme Court (later called the Sanhedrin) consisting of 71 Judges with their students. All this was to ensure that the Torah was preserved accurately, and to ensure that all of Israel knew the Torah.

Other countries have gross national products. The national product of the Jews is the Torah. The Nation of Israel never had gladiators, nor circuses, nor sports arenas, nor theaters, nor pageants, nor any of the recreational diversions that were found so often among other nations. The study of Torah has been our national recreation, our pastime, our holy service to Hashem.

And it was not a casual pastime. Most Rabbis devoted their entire lives to studying Torah. They studied it day and night, and slept and ate little. Many Rabbis had to work for a living, but their lives were wholly devoted to Torah study. They recited Torah as they worked. (This is true even today. I actually knew a man who did this constantly. He worked in a warehouse, walking around filling orders. He would recite Mishnayos by heart all day. When I wanted to speak to him I often had to wait until he finished the Mishnah he was reviewing.) And after work they hurried to study Torah in whatever time they had for as long as they could stay awake. As King David says in Psalms, "I love your Torah so much that that's what I talk about all day" (119:97).

Hillel the Elder (112 B.C.E. - 8 C.E.) began as a very poor man. He earned very little money a day. Each day he would give half his money to the doorkeeper of the yeshivah so he could attend the classes of Shmaya and Avtalyon, the leading Elders of the generation. Once, on a Friday, when he did not have the few pennies it cost, Hillel climbed up the wall of the Academy and listened through the skylight. It began to snow, and he stayed on. Eventually, he got stuck there, and his body was noticed Shabbos morning, stuck on the skylight on the roof under the snow. The Leaders of the generation themselves, Shmaya and Avtalyon, ran and brought a ladder and climbed up and took him down. To save his life, they started a fire (even though it was the Sabbath, since we are obligated to break the Sabbath to save a life).

This sort of man will make sure to learn Torah without errors, and he certainly does not falsify his teachings. He loved the Torah too much for that.

The study of Torah was so important, that Jews would stop at nothing to learn it. And because it was so important to them, they took great care to preserve the teachings of the Torah perfectly.

It was Avtalyon, one of those two Rabbis in that story, who used to warn his students and colleagues, "Rabbis! Be very careful with your words, so that your students do not make any mistakes" (Avos 1:11). How very important it was to the Rabbis that the Torah be taught carefully and correctly, so that mistakes do not occur.

The study of Torah was so dear to the Jews that many safeguards were put in place to ensure that it was done properly. The Talmud talks about Rabbis teaching the same material hundreds of times to the same student to make sure it was understood properly. The Rabbis instructed all Torah students to review every lesson at least one hundred and one times (Babylonian Talmud, Chagigah 9b).

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-08-2005, 10:32 PM
:sl:
I am skeptical about the possibility of a fruitful discussion if we simply exchange articles. I think it would be more beneficial if we discuss individual points one-by-one, but certainly use such articles as a reference.

I did read that article, and its argument revolves around the claim of continuous teaching and strict adherence to the Torah. I am slightly perplexed as to why the authors of the article chose not to include the narrative of the Jews conduct as provided by the Tanakh, as it certainly has much to say on the subject. If we examine both, I think t will become obvious that the article is certainly not very comprehensive, and can be misleading at various points.

I think we should examine a historical perspective of Judaism, and examine if the followers were truly as devoted to the Torah as the above article claims.

Let's just start from the beginning.

One year after the Exodus, Prophet Moses and Aaron counted the total number of men who were at least twenty years of age and of fighting strength. Their tally yielded 603, 550 Israelites. See Bamidbar/Numbers 1:20-46. The Levi tribe was not included in this number, and neither were females of all ages, old men, and any young men under twenty. Taking these groups into account, we can infer that according to the Torah, the toal number participating in the exodus probably exceeded 2 million Jews. As a side point, I'm not sure how this number arose from a tribe of seventy people (Genesis 46:26-27) in only 215 years, especially when they're new born males were being systematically killed for the previous eight decades.

Let's move onwards. Prophet Moses went up to the mount and supplicated there for forty days. Let's examine the narrative in the Tanakh:

Shemot/Exodus 32:1-6
When the people saw that Moses was late in coming down from the mountain, the people gathered against Aaron, and they said to him: "Come on! Make us gods that will go before us, because this man Moses, who brought us up from the land of Egypt we don't know what has become of him."

Aaron said to them, "Remove the golden earrings that are on the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters and bring them [those earrings] to me."

And all the people stripped themselves of the golden earrings that were on their ears and brought them to Aaron.

He took [them] from their hand[s], fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made it into a molten calf, upon which they said: "These are your gods, O Israel, who have brought you up from the land of Egypt!"

When Aaron saw [this], he built an altar in front of it, and Aaron proclaimed and said: "Tomorrow shall be a festival to the Lord."

On the next day they arose early, offered up burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings, and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and they got up to make merry.

So even after God feed the Israelits and parted the sea for their escape, this is their display of ingratitude. And these were his immediate followers who had witnessed these miracles themselves.

On the verge of punishing them for their transgression, at the last moment, Prophet Moses reprimanded God at
Shemot 32:14 The Lord [then] reconsidered the evil He had said He would do to His people.

And in some versions it is translated as 'repented' instead of reconsidered. The idea of God repenting or reconsidering His already perfect decree, after being corrected by His servant, is another one of the unfathomable notions on the Torah.


I'll leave you with this for now, and we can move on later.

:w:

morrissey
04-09-2005, 02:32 AM
Ansar, you claim the Jews re-wrote the Torah, yet you use quotes from that Torah to support your arguments.

You beleive the above quotes are not corrupted? How do you differentiate between which ones were corrupted and which ones were not?

If one man has claimed this from revelations he alone had, why should I beleive him? I have millions of Jews, most of whom have never met,and are scattered all over the face of the earth, who tell the story as it is writen in the Torah, identically, as told to them in an unbroken chain by their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and so on, all the way back to their ancestors at Sinai. And then 1 man, Mohammed, tells me it is something different.

You are going to have to find proof about the corruption of the Torah without using the Torah - as I need proof as to which bits got corrupted, you know, where, when, why, and how......and group eyewitness accounts of this. Just one man claiming to be an eyewitness is useless - I could pretend to 'eyewitness' some strange event right now, and you would undoubtably laugh at me as a fool for expecting me to believe you.

morrissey
04-09-2005, 02:49 AM
Shemot/Exodus 32:1-6
When the people saw that Moses was late in coming down from the mountain, the people gathered against Aaron, and they said to him: "Come on! Make us gods that will go before us, because this man Moses, who brought us up from the land of Egypt we don't know what has become of him."

Aaron said to them, "Remove the golden earrings that are on the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters and bring them [those earrings] to me."

And all the people stripped themselves of the golden earrings that were on their ears and brought them to Aaron.

He took [them] from their hand[s], fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made it into a molten calf, upon which they said: "These are your gods, O Israel, who have brought you up from the land of Egypt!"

When Aaron saw [this], he built an altar in front of it, and Aaron proclaimed and said: "Tomorrow shall be a festival to the Lord."

On the next day they arose early, offered up burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings, and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and they got up to make merry.

So even after God feed the Israelits and parted the sea for their escape, this is their display of ingratitude. And these were his immediate followers who had witnessed these miracles themselves.



All these actions contradict the prescription of service to HaShem that is laid out in the Torah. Whenever the Jews have been corrupt, throughout the TaNaKh, they have strayed from the blueprint of the Torah, which has never been altered, to this day. They have never been so proud that they altered the actual blueprint, the 613 laws, or been so proud to re-write their history to deny any of their failures.

Why would they, en-masse, re-write their Torah, make the rules harder for themselves, and then write about themselves not living up to these made up rules? Is that corruption? It sounds more like insanity to, me, a nation which writes a book about, essentially self-abuse: ie, lets give ourselves extremely stricter rules than G-d originally gave us, and then when we fail, we will record for all of mankind our suffering because of it...

Or, G-d gave the 613 laws, as recorded in the Torah, and yes, the Jews did stray, but miraculously, enough righteous Jews survived to this day, and these ones have successfully abided by these laws, and preserved the Torah as prescribed in the Torah also to this day.

morrissey
04-09-2005, 04:10 AM
the toal number participating in the exodus probably exceeded 2 million Jews. As a side point, I'm not sure how this number arose from a tribe of seventy people (Genesis 46:26-27) in only 215 years, especially when they're new born males were being systematically killed for the previous eight decades.



This is easy for me to understand - have you seen your average Orthodox Jewish family size? These people breed like rabbits ;) 12 is normal, 5 children, the woman weeps because she assumes she is barren ;)

(just wish my husband would let me have as many children! :D )

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-09-2005, 11:01 PM
Greetings Morrissey,

Ansar, you claim the Jews re-wrote the Torah, yet you use quotes from that Torah to support your arguments.

You beleive the above quotes are not corrupted? How do you differentiate between which ones were corrupted and which ones were not?
Good question. Many non-muslims ask this when we quote from the New testament or Tanakh. The answer is that the function of the Qur'an is a criterion. It confirms the truth in the previous revelations and negates any falsehood. Eg. We don't believe in the verses that slander the Prophets by attributing criminal acts to them, because Allah swt tells us that they were shining examples of moral conduct.

This is the whole purpose of the Qur'an, to let us know which parts are corrupted and which aren't. There are many contradictions and statements in the Tanakh that I could not accept as truth from God.

Moreover, your article claims that the Children of Israel took the utmost care in preserving the Torah, while the Tanakh records a different story. One of them must be wrong. And both cases prove the point.


If one man has claimed this from revelations he alone had, why should I beleive him? I have millions of Jews, most of whom have never met,and are scattered all over the face of the earth, who tell the story as it is writen in the Torah, identically, as told to them in an unbroken chain by their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and so on, all the way back to their ancestors at Sinai. And then 1 man, Mohammed, tells me it is something different.
It is actually not just one man. I have hundreds of quotes from biblical scholars that record this corruption. But I thought you would simply disregard their statements, so I decided to prove my point with the scripture itself.


You are going to have to find proof about the corruption of the Torah without using the Torah - as I need proof as to which bits got corrupted, you know, where, when, why, and how......and group eyewitness accounts of this.
That's fine, but the most reliable source to start with is the Tanakh itself.


All these actions contradict the prescription of service to HaShem that is laid out in the Torah.
Is Shemot/Exodus not part of the Torah?!


Why would they, en-masse, re-write their Torah,
There is a difference between re-writing something and simply neglecting it, mixing it up with the work of humans etc.


make the rules harder for themselves,
Well, whenver Judaism differs in ruling from Islam, it seems that Judaism is not harder. Jews aren't prohibited from alcohol, for example.


and then write about themselves not living up to these made up rules?
I don't think they re-wrote that. It was a simple fact that no-one could possibly deny.

There are whole centuries where the Torah has gone missing.


This is easy for me to understand - have you seen your average Orthodox Jewish family size? These people breed like rabbits 12 is normal, 5 children, the woman weeps because she assumes she is barren

(just wish my husband would let me have as many children! )
lol...okay let's discuss this for awhile. I think its scientifically impossible, but lets work out the details.

Let's say that they each have 12 children, right? say 1 child per year. And these children have their own children at the age of fifteen, say. And let's assume that out of the original seventy tribesmen, 40 were women, about to give birth.

Genetically, approx. half of the children will be male.

I'll work on this problem, and get back to you, insha'Allah.

yoshiyahu
04-10-2005, 01:06 AM
Hi, I don't know if i'll have enough time to actively participate in this thread, but I'd like to hit a few things...


As a side point, I'm not sure how this number arose from a tribe of seventy people (Genesis 46:26-27) in only 215 years, especially when they're new born males were being systematically killed for the previous eight decades.

The original Israelite nation was composed of converts and native israelites. Also, IIRC, Genesis 46 only mentions the males. I don't have a TNK on hand to verify that, however. That was also from a period in time where the average lifespan was very short, women had children as soon as they were capable of bearing them, and polygamy was the norm.

yoshiyahu
04-10-2005, 01:10 AM
Assuming there were 70 couples who had 10 children each, and each generation being 20 years, here's the numbers we get:

700 after 20 years.
7000 after 40 years.
70,000 after 60 years.
700,000 after 80 years.
7,000,000 after 100 years.

As you can see - especially when you figure in converts - the 2 million number isn't a great exxageration. Even if there were 10 children every 40 years instead, the number would still exceed 7,000,000 possible descendants.

yoshiyahu
04-10-2005, 01:11 AM
Some Muslims have claimed that the "original" Torah is in Mecca. Do y'all have any proof on that one?

morrissey
04-10-2005, 02:08 AM
Well, whenver Judaism differs in ruling from Islam, it seems that Judaism is not harder. Jews aren't prohibited from alcohol, for example.




Okay, have a husband and 3 sons to deal with today, but this statement jumped out at me. So a brief response:

Islam 'permits' the Jews not to keep Shabbas, with all it's intricate implications in the definition of not working (eg, driving on Shabbas, turning lights on and off). Islam 'permits' the Jews to eat shellfish. Islam insists that the Jews dont keep Pesach, Rosh Hoshannah, Yom Kippur and other holy days, as directed by G-d for them to do in the Torah. If Mohammed tells them they may break any of these rules (these are just a small example) then his prophecy is false and he is deemed a false prophet by Israel.

Does Islam allow the Jew to live in the manner G-d directed them in the Torah? If the answer is no, then Islam is trying to defy G-d's command when He clearly stated that nothing should be added or subtracted from the Torah.

If Islam insisted that the Jews follow the Jewish Torah (ie the Sefer Torah they keep in their Synagogues), then I might prick my ears up and listen, as I think Islam probably has some good things to teach non-Jews. But since it does not, it falls under the category of false prophecy, as described in Deuteronomy 13. I am sorry, I just cant get around this.

morrissey
04-10-2005, 02:12 AM
Some Muslims have claimed that the "original" Torah is in Mecca. Do y'all have any proof on that one?

If you have the original Torah, gee, why dont you just make the contents public and this debate can end once and for all..... ;)

SpaceFalcon2001
04-10-2005, 02:14 AM
If you have the original Torah, gee, why dont you just make the contents public and this debate can end once and for all..... ;) Please morrisse, I could write an "original" Torah and many Muslims would accept it provided it followed the Quran somewhat and "predicted" mohammed a few times.

morrissey
04-10-2005, 02:42 AM
Maybe that's your mission in life, SF, as apparently only one person has to 'hear' from G-d for us all to be required to fall into submission..... You're just one person...unless you are a trinity.....

sorry, I'm being far too silly now :rolleyes: , please forgive me, I'll shut up now :zip:

yoshiyahu
04-10-2005, 05:44 AM
Ansar, you claim the Jews re-wrote the Torah, yet you use quotes from that Torah to support your arguments.

Hi Morrissey. I'd compare it to us using the NT to prove a few points to the Christians. Or when a person quotes from the DSS.

yoshiyahu
04-10-2005, 05:47 AM
Jews aren't prohibited from alcohol, for example.

Actually, they're commanded to use wine certain times. In other times it is absolutely forbidden (one may not pray while intoxicated, for example).

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-10-2005, 02:02 PM
I'll get your other points later, I just wanted to answer Yoshiyahu's question:

Some Muslims have claimed that the "original" Torah is in Mecca. Do y'all have any proof on that one?
No, that's ridiculous.


How old is the oldest copy of the Torah, btw?

SpaceFalcon2001
04-10-2005, 06:56 PM
(one may not pray while intoxicated, for example). I do not think that is true. While it is true during a formal service, one can pray while intoxicated. The chassids believe it allows you to free your mind a little.

How old is the oldest copy of the Torah, btw? Since we bury it in the ground when it becomes too old, it's hard to have an old one.

The very oldest is wherever the Ark of the covenant is (because that is where the first was kept).

The oldest we have is the one that was found with the dead sea scrolls, along with some Tefillin, both having the same text that exists today.

How old is the oldest copy of the Quran?

morrissey
04-10-2005, 10:34 PM
Hi Morrissey. I'd compare it to us using the NT to prove a few points to the Christians. Or when a person quotes from the DSS.

The reason I ask why he uses it, is because he states it has been re-written/corrupted to suit the Jews, so that is why it states that G-d's requirements are different for mankind in the Quran and are in contradiction to what the Torah states.

If he believes it is corrupted, it therefore must be considered an unreliable source document, so I dont understand how he can find a reliable account of events from a document that has supposedly become fiction.

The claims that it is fiction came from 1 man: Mohammed. Millions of Jews who use the Torah all claim it's authenticity. 1 man said it's wrong, and millions of other men say it's correct.

Unless he can come up with archaeological evidence, or eyewitness accounts of several people, at the same momment, witnessing all the Jewish scribes, (ie all of them on the face of the planet after assimilation) conspiring to write the Torah identically (since as we know, each Sefer Torah is meticulously copied and therefore they all match perfectly) in contradiction with what G-d originally commanded them at Sinai, then I am afraid his claims are merely hearsay, and extremely slanderous against the Jewish people.

Last night I couldnt get this out of my head. The 4 different types of belief.

1: Those who choose not to beleive

2: Those who really want to believe, so they set about trying to prove this belief

3: Those who are insane, so their beliefs are theres alone ;)

and 4: Those whose belief is merely a side-effect of what has been proved to them.

So, does Ansar believe that the Torah was corrupted because he really wants to believe it is (option 2), so therefore 'knowing' is a secondary side-effect in an effort to prove his beliefs, or does he know something which forces him to believe without a doubt, as he has witnessed undeniable proof.

If it is the 4th type of belief, then I wonder why he can't just lay it on the table so we can also believe, as a side-effect of witnessing what has been proven to us.....

Ibn Abi Ahmed
04-10-2005, 11:09 PM
Question and Answer Details

Name Abdullah - United Arab Emirates
Topic Faith & Practice
Title What Islam says about the Bible
Question Assalamu Alaykum!

We (the Muslims) were discussing various topics with Christians on an Islamic discussion forum. The Christians made certain comments, which I'd like you to respond to. Here is what they said: “All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed.
...Say: "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."

Surah 3 Verse 93

The Christians said: “The problem is that the ayah is saying to follow the Torah. However, Muslims say that the Torah has been corrupted and lost. How could the Jews study the Torah unless the book they had at Muhammad's time is the Book from Moses' time?”
If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

Surah 10 Verse 94

The Christians said: “First, this ayah says to ask the People of the Book, not merely the upright people. But if Muslims asked even the good Christians, they would say Jesus died and rose again.”
And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

Surah 29 Verse 46

The Christians said: “This says to believe not only in the revelation come Abraham, Moses, and Jesus but also to 7th century Christians, and to all Christians! The Christians are trying their best to prove that the Qur'an does not say the Torah and the Bible have been corrupted. They're also trying their best to prove that the Qur'an says Muslims should follow the Torah and the Bible.

I would appreciate it if you kindly respond to the comments of the Christians and teach all of us the tafseer of each ayah that was mentioned, and kindly clear the misconceptions and misunderstandings of the Christians with regards to each ayah that was mentioned.

Wassalamu Alaykum
Date 2002/7/6

Name of Consultant Shahul Hameed
Content of Reply

Dear Brother Abdullah,
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah, thank you very much for your mail.

First of all, I would like to clear a misunderstanding among certain Muslims, which some Christian missionaries are trying to take undue advantage of: The Muslims do not believe that the Torah and Bible are lost, that they are completely lost. The Qur’anic position about the Torah and Bible is very clear. Here, I would like to point out that it is well attested by learned Christian scholars too. That is, the Books of God as revealed to Moses and Jesus do not exist now in the original form and language.

Many Muslims misunderstand that the Christian Old Testament is the Torah. This is not true. The first five books of the Old Testament, often called the Pentateuch (the Five Books), contain some of the ideas in the original Torah - that is all. The language of the original Torah was ancient Hebrew; now nobody speaks that language. The first five books of the Old Testament contain ideas from the original Torah and also stories, which could have never been part of the divinely revealed Book. So the Jewish or Christian Torah contains some parts of the Original Torah, as well as other things.

The same is the case of the Bible. It was revealed to Jesus by God, in Jesus’ own language of Aramaic, which is a Semitic language, an eastern language similar to Hebrew and Arabic. The “original” extant copies of the gospels are in Greek, a western language. Now there are four gospels, supposed to have been written by four of the disciples of Jesus: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Was Jesus quoting, from these Greek books, written many years after his disappearance when he was addressing his people? Certainly not! He was quoting from the Book he received from God, which was the original Bible in the language of his own people. The argument that God revealed his Bible to Jesus in Greek is like saying that God revealed the Qur’an to Muhammad in English!

So the original Gospel was not in Greek, it was in the language Jesus and his people spoke and understood. We have no record or evidence to indicate that; this original Gospel was written down by scribes under Jesus’ own supervision. I repeat: We have no original Gospel existing now as a single volume, in the original language. Every educated Christian must know this fact! (Those who are in doubt can go to the Jerome Biblical Commentary, or any authentic book by genuine scholars that deal with the subject. Nevertheless, missionaries give the impression that this is only a baseless charge by Muslims.

Instead of the original Gospel, we have four books written by persons who are supposed to have been Jesus’ disciples. I say ‘supposed’, because modern scholars who have done research on the subject, question the claim that these were the disciples of Jesus, in the first place. These four books called the Gospels are placed at the beginning of some 27 books, bound together into one volume, called The New Testament. Out of these 27 books, thirteen were written by a man called St. Paul. This Paul was not a disciple of Jesus, nor has Jesus met him, as he himself testifies. Modern Christians are ardent followers of St. Paul, even in cases where Paul clearly contradicts Jesus!

The Islamic request to Christians is just this: Please follow Jesus, don’t follow Paul, who preaches a different gospel! The Islamic belief about the present Book, which the Christians use as “the word of God”, called the New Testament is that it is not the Gospel of Jesus mentioned in the Qur'an. Still, Muslims believe that the Gospels in the bible contain some teachings of Jesus, as well as the interpretations of the writers of those books, whoever they might have been. Also Muslims believe that in the words quoted from Jesus in these gospels, you come across certain ideas, which he received from God too. So the New Testament (particularly the Gospels) is valuable to the Muslims. It is valuable in that there is the “word of God” in it, exactly as the Old Testament (particularly the Pentateuch) is valuable to Muslims in that it contains also the “word of God” in it.

There is a couple of things that we must understand about God commanding Muslims to go to Christians or Jews and ask them about any particular point, to verify whether it is in their books.



God wants to make Muslims, as well as the People of the Book, understand the continuity of Divine Guidance.

He wants to encourage understanding and dialogue between Muslims and others, for Allah knows best.



The Qur’an does not say anywhere that the older scriptures remained pure and free from corruption. On the contrary, the Qur’an very clearly says that they have been corrupted. One of the functions of the Qur’an is to confirm the truth that is left in the older scriptures, even after many interpolations and revisions have affected substantial changes in them.

The Qur’anic position about the previous scriptures is clarified in the following verse:
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Surah 5 Verse 48

This verse means that the Qur’an confirms the truth that remains in the former scriptures. The Arabic word translated, “Watcher over” is Muhaymin, which clearly indicates that the Qur’an confirms only the truth in the previous books. That the keepers of the previous books had distorted them is made clear in another verse:
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

Surah 2 Verse 79

From these two verses, it is quite clear that the Qur’an does not support the Christian claim that the Torah and the Bible remain uncorrupted all through history. What is more, this is not a claim they can maintain in the light of their own scripture:

“How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie” (Jeremiah 8:8, quoted from the New American Standard Bible).

Here the Prophet Jeremiah is scolding the Israelites that their corrupt scribes have made the Law of the Lord (that is the Torah) into a lie by their ‘lying pen’ (that is the pen they used to change the verses). This proof in the Book, the People of the Book are carrying, clearly establishes that their Book has been corrupted by their own scribes.

We have good evidence in the Gospels themselves that Jesus was using the original Bible for his preaching. He used to refer to it as The Gospel of the Kingdom:
“And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.” (Matthew 4: 23)

Here it is said that Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. Ask those Christian disputants whether Jesus was preaching one of the four Canonical gospels included in the Bible in 325 C.E, written not in Jesus’ own Aramaic language, but in the western language of Greek, at least thirty years after his alleged crucifixion. It is so obvious that no Christian scholar, worth his salt, can deny the fact that the present gospels contain the words of God, the words of Jesus and the words of the writer. That means that they are not fully God’s word. The Islamic belief is also the same.

Now let us turn specifically to the Qur’anic verses you quoted:

First,
All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say: "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."

Surah 3 Verse 93

Second,
If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

Surah 10 Verse 94

We must understand that these verses were originally addressed to the Prophet and his contemporaries. They had no means of knowing many of the ideas, which were being revealed to them by God. This is because there were so many things new to them, particularly about Jews and Christians, which were already really confusing to those polytheists or ex-polytheists of Mecca and Madinah. I believe (Allah knows best), it is to these people that the verses are primarily addressed.

"The truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt" - is clearly addressed to those who doubt, or to those who are likely to have some doubts. It is only natural for humans to have all kinds of doubts and questions, arising in the mind, especially in the light of so much of new material. It seems the Christian argument is that we are commanded not to doubt the Christian claims. However, as we have seen, this is not what the Qur'an commands us to do.

May Allah guide us to truth!

Mr. Lamaan Ball, editor of Ask About Islam, adds:

We are told in the Qur'an only to verify that what is in the Qur'an agrees with some extant verses of the Bible. The Muslims can quote the Bible, because they believe there is some truth in it. But we need to be clear: we understand that there is also falsehood there, which is wrongly presented as truth. By quoting the Bible we can show that the Qur'an confirms teachings already present in the earlier books. We must however always be clear that we are not asserting anything else about the remaining contents of those earlier books.

yoshiyahu
04-10-2005, 11:10 PM
I do not think that is true. While it is true during a formal service, one can pray while intoxicated. The chassids believe it allows you to free your mind a little.

How much of a drink do the Chassidim allow? Perhaps it is only prohibited in Sephardic Halakah. See the URL below for a discussion on the issue from R. Eli Mansour.

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?PageIndex=2&ClipID=843

Ibn Abi Ahmed
04-10-2005, 11:14 PM
Question :


What sura in the Quran is related or mentions about the curruption of the Torah and Gospel?

Answer :



Praise be to Allaah.

Allaah says about the Jews (interpretation of the meaning): “Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will belive in your religion in spite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?” [al-Baqarah 2:75]

Qutaadah said: “The phrase ‘then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it’ refers to the Jews, who used to hear the words of Allaah, then they altered it after they had understood what it meant.”

Abu ‘Aaliyah said: “They took what Allaah had revealed in their Book describing Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and changed its meaning.” Ibn Zayd said: “The phrase ‘[they] used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it’ refers to the Tawraat which Allaah revealed to them; they changed it, making what it permitted forbidden, and what was forbidden allowed, changing the truth to falsehood and falsehood to truth…” [Tafseer Ibn Katheer]

Allaah also said (interpretation of the meaning): “Among those who are Jews, there are some who displace words from (their) right places and say: ‘We hear your word (O Muhammad) and disobey,’ and ‘Hear and let you (Muhammad) hear nothing.’ And Raa’ina [in Arabic this means, ‘Be careful, listen to us and we listen to you,’ whereas in Hebrew it means ‘an insult.’] with a twist of their tongues and as a mockery of the religion (Islam). And if only they had said, ‘We hear and obey,’ and ‘Do make us understand,’ it would have been better for them, and more proper, but Allaah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not except for a few.” [al-Nisaa’ 4:46]

The phrase “[they] displace words from (their) right places” means that they misinterpret them and understand them in a way that Allaah did not intend, doing this deliberately and inventing lies against Allaah. [Tafseer Ibn Katheer]

Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): “So because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allaah loves al-Muhsineen (good-doers).” [al-Maa’idah 5:13]

The phrase “because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them” refers to the fact that they broke the Covenant which had been made with them, so Allaah cursed them, i.e., He kept them away from following the True Guidance. “[We] made their hearts grow hard” means that they will not benefit from any preaching because their hearts are so hard. “They change the words from their (right) places” means that they play havoc with the words of Allaah and misinterpret His Book, taking it to mean things that were never meant and attributing to Allaah things that He never said; may Allaah protect us from that.

“[They] have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them” means that they stopped following its teachings because they did not want to follow them. Al-Hasan said: “They did not adhere to their religion or keep their duties towards Allaah, without which no deeds are acceptable to Him; their fitrah (innate nature) was not sound and their deeds were not righteous.” [Tafseer Ibn Katheer]

So it becomes quite clear that the ways in which the Children of Israel tampered with the Tawraat and Injeel include the following:

Changing
Omitting
Adding things and attributing to Allaah words that He did not say
Misinterpreting the words of Allaah.
When Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was sent, the original Tawraat and Injeel had already been altered and distorted. Allaah revealed the Qur’aan to His Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and guaranteed that He Himself would preserve it, as He says (interpretation of the meaning): “Verily We: it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e., the Qur’aan) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).” [al-Hijr 15:9]

This distinguishing feature was not found in any Book before the Qur’aan. From the time of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) until the present (more than fourteen hundred years) the Qur’aan has stayed the same, and not a single letter of it has been changed, as ancient manuscripts and the hearts of generation after generation of people who have memorized the entire text and earned the title of “haafiz” bear witness. We ask Allaah to guide us to the true and straight path. And Allaah knows best.



Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)

Ibn Abi Ahmed
04-10-2005, 11:17 PM
Question :


It is well known among us Muslims that Allaah revealed the Gospel (Injeel) to ‘Eesa (peace be upon him), but when I studied some things about Christianity, they told me that the Gospel was not brought by the Messiah, rather it was written by the disciples of the Messiah after the crucifixion (or after Allaah raised him up to Him, as it says in the Qur’aan). How can we reconcile between the two views?.

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

There is no contradiction between the two views such that we would need to ask how they can be reconciled. Rather the reason why the questioner is confused is that he is mixing up two things that we must believe in and that are both true, praise be to Allaah.

The first issue is the Gospel that was revealed from the Lord of the Worlds to the Prophet of Allaah ‘Eesa (peace be upon him). Belief that Allaah revealed a Book to His Prophet ‘Eesa and that the name of this book was the Gospel (Injeel), are basic principles of faith that we must believe in. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allaah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say,) ‘We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers’ — and they say, ‘We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)’”

[al-Baqarah 2:285]

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to Jibreel, when he asked him about faith, as mentioned in the well-known hadeeth: “Faith means to believe in Allaah, His angels, His books, His messengers, the Last Day, and to believe in His divine will and decree, both good and bad.” (Agreed upon).

Disbelieving in that or doubting it is misguidance and kufr or disbelief in Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Believe in Allaah, and His Messenger (Muhammad), and the Book (the Qur’aan) which He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture which He sent down to those before (him); and whosoever disbelieves in Allaah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away.

137. Verily, those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe (again), and (again) disbelieve, and go on increasing in disbelief; Allaah will not forgive them, nor guide them on the (right) way”

[al-Nisa’ 4:136-137]

“Verily, those who disbelieve in Allaah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allaah and His Messengers (by believing in Allaah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, “We believe in some but reject others,” and wish to adopt a way in between.

151. They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment”

[al-Nisa’ 4:150-151]

The second issue is the Gospel or, more precisely, the Gospels that the Christians have today. Although one of the basic principles of our faith is to believe in the Gospel that was revealed to ‘Eesa, we also believe that there is no longer any book that remained as it was revealed by Allaah, neither the Gospel nor anything else, apart from the Qur’aan. Even the Christians themselves do not believe that the books that they have before them were revealed in that form from God, nor do they claim that the Messiah wrote the Gospel or at least that it was written during his lifetime. Imam Ibn Hazm (may Allaah have mercy on him) says in al-Fasl fi’l-Milal (2/2):

We do not need to try hard to prove that the Gospels and all the books of the Christians did not come from God or from the Messiah (peace be upon him), as we needed to do with regard to the Torah and the books attributed to the Prophets that the Jews have, because the Jews claim that the Torah that they have was revealed from God to Moosa, so we needed to establish proof that this claim of theirs is false. With regard to the Christians, they have taken care of the issue themselves, because they do not believe that the Gospels were revealed from God to the Messiah, or that the Messiah brought them, rather all of them from first to last, peasants and kings, Nestorians, Jacobites, Maronites and Orthodox are all agreed that there are four historical accounts written by four known men at different times. The first of them is the account written by Matthew the Levite who was a disciple of the Messiah, nine years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven. He wrote it in Hebrew in Judaea in Palestine, and it filled approximately twenty-eight pages in a medium-sized script. The next account was written by Mark, a disciple of Simon ben Yuna, who was called Peter, twenty-two years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven. He wrote it in Greek in Antioch in the land of the Byzantines. They say that the Simon mentioned is the one who wrote it, then he erased his name from the beginning of it and attributed it to his disciple Mark. It filled twenty-four pages written in a medium-sized script. This Simon was a disciple of the Messiah. The third account written was that of Luke, a physician of Antioch who was also a disciple of Simon Peter. He wrote it in Greek after Mark had written his account, and is similar in length to the Gospel of Matthew. The fourth account was written by John the son of Zebedee, another disciple of the Messiah, sixty-odd years after the Messiah has been taken up into heaven. He wrote it in Greek, and it filled twenty-four pages in a medium-sized script. End quote.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Jawaab al-Saheeh (3:21):

With regard to the Gospels that the Christians have, there are four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They are agreed that Luke and Mark did not see the Messiah, rather he was seen by Matthew and John. These four accounts which they call the Gospel, and they call each one of them a Gospel, were written by these men after the Messiah had been taken up into heaven. They did not say that they are the word of God or that the Messiah conveyed them from God, rather they narrated some of the words of the Messiah and some of his deeds and miracles. End quote.

Moreover, these books which were written after the time of the Messiah did not remain in their original form. The original versions were lost long ago. Ibn Hazm said:

With regard to the Christians, there is no dispute among them or anyone else that only one hundred and twenty men believed in the Messiah during his lifetime… and all of those who believed in him concealed themselves and were afraid during his lifetime and afterwards; they called people to his religion in secret and none of them disclosed himself or practised his religion openly, because any of them who was caught was executed.

They continued in this manner, not showing themselves at all, and they had no place where they were safe for three hundred years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven.

During this time, the Gospel that had been revealed from Allaah disappeared, apart from a few verses which Allaah preserved as proof against them and as a rebuke to them, as we have mentioned. Then when the Emperor Constantine became a Christian, then the Christians prevailed and started to practise their religion openly and assemble in safety.

If a religion is like this, with its followers practicing it in secret and living in constant fear of the sword, it is impossible for things to be transmitted soundly via a continuous chain of narrators and its followers cannot protect it or prevent it from being distorted.

End quote. Al-Fasl, 2/4-5.

In addition to this huge disruption in the chain of transmission of their books, which lasted for two centuries, these books did not remain in the languages in which they were originally written, rather they were translated, more than once, by people whose level of knowledge and honesty is unknown. The contradictions in these books and their shortcomings are among the strongest evidence that they have been distorted and that they are not the Gospel (Injeel) that Allaah revealed to His slave and Messenger ‘Eesa (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Allaah indeed spoke the truth when He said (interpretation of the meaning):

“Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction”

[al-Nisa’ 4:82].



Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

yoshiyahu
04-10-2005, 11:41 PM
How old is the oldest copy of the Torah, btw?

Complete or incomplete? The oldest fragments are 2800+ years old.

morrissey
04-10-2005, 11:46 PM
ahmed687,

this is all heresay.

Do you have any proof?

You are asking me to believe opinions and interpretations.

I need tangible proof.

Your responses fall into the category of belief that I mentioned above, which was number 2, or the 'x-files' belief: "I want to believe, so I will set about trying to prove".

I want proof based on your belief becasue it is merely a side-effect of something you have witnessed and had undoubtably proven to you.

I am not asking you to believe in anything that I believe in. But you are attempting to prove something to me, in order to make me believe.

though you arent using the words 'blind faith', blind faith is what you are expecting me to have, when you ask me to believe the slanderous claims you are making against the Jewish people. You have to prove these claims, otherwise they remain nothing but hot air.

yoshiyahu
04-11-2005, 12:05 AM
The language of the original Torah was ancient Hebrew; now nobody speaks that language.

Entirely incorrect.

SpaceFalcon2001
04-11-2005, 12:51 AM
How much of a drink do the Chassidim allow? Besides the obvious purim, Chassidim are traditionally encouraged to get "a little tipsy" on Shabbat. The idea is that one can more freely release their happiness and emotions.

Here is what a Chassidic Rav said:

"It is well know that since the destruction of the Holy Temple, our prayers take the place of the sacrifices which were offered there, as it is written, '[The prayer of] our lips shall replace the oxen [of the sacrifices].'(Hosea 14:3). Our three daily prayers correspond to the daily burnt offerings. And just as a sacrifice was rendered invalid by inappropriate thoughts, so, too, is our prayer. "When a person stands in prayer before his Creator, the Evil Inclination wants nothing more than to confuse him and introduce all manner of strange thoughts into his head. How is it possible to stand in prayer in face of that? In the end, it is unlikely that we succeeded in replacing the oxen of the sacrifices with our prayers. What did the chassidim discover to remedy the problem, and to battle against the ploys of this Evil Inclination, the Yetzer Hara?

"After prayer, the chassidim sit together, raise their glasses in l'chayim, and pour out their hearts in blessing. 'Yankele, you should find a proper match for your daughter,' exclaims one man to his friend. 'Beryl, your business should have as many customers as the eyes on a potato,' exclaims another.

"The Yetzer Hara, already regaling in his victory of having confounded the prayer of an entire congregation of Jews, and seeing them eating and drinking, concludes that they have finished praying, and joyfully retires for the morning.

"Now, it is a clear law in the Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law), that prayer can be said in any language that one understands.(Orach Chaim 62:2) So when Jews gather together to say l'chayim and they begin to bless one another from the depths of their hearts, it is the real prayer. Their intentions are pure, as their Yetzer Hara has left them to their own devices; and their prayers go straight to the heart of the Master of the World."

morrissey
04-11-2005, 12:57 AM
My husband will like the sounds of that, Space Falcon :D

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-11-2005, 11:58 PM
IS THE BIBLE HISTORICALLY TRUE?


Since the faith of Jews and Christians depend on the historical circumstances narrated in the Bible, the question about the historicity of the Bible is ultimately a question about the validity of the faith.

This question is addressed in the book The Bible as History by Werner Keller. In the postscript by Joachim Rehork, the importance of the question is first addressed:

For the majority of Bible readers . . . as well as for a large number of Biblical scholars, a great deal still depends on the question whether statements in the Bible can be proved. The Dominican father, Roland de Vaux, for example, one of the most prominent figures in the history of Biblical antiquity, regarded the capacity to survive of the Jewish and Christian faiths as dependent upon the agreement between “religious” and “objective” history. He stated his opinion thus: “. . . if Israel’s historical faith does not have its roots in history, then it is wrong and the same is true of our faith.”1

Now what about the answer to this question? Is the Bible historically true? Rehork writes:

It is full of problematical statements with the consequence that representatives of the most diverse disciplines, “schools” and opinions have racked their brains again and again over contradictions, repetitions and inconsistencies in the Biblical text–inconsistencies of which the following are a few examples.

Then Rehork lists some examples of which I number three here:

1. In the Bible there are two accounts of the Creation (Genesis 1: 1-2, 3; and Genesis 2:4ff). In the first of these two accounts of the Creation, God created man last; in the second, however, God created him first, that is to say, before all other creatures. In one case God created mankind from the beginning as “male and female”; then, however, only the man came into being from “the dust of the ground”, while woman was formed subsequently from a rib of the man.

2. The name of Moses’s father-in-law has been transmitted in three different forms, once as Jethro (Exodus 3:1; 4:18; 18:1-12), once as Reuel (Exodus 2:18) and finally as Hobab ((Judges 4:11).

3. How could Moses describe his own death (Deuteronomy 34)? Or to put the question another way: can the first five books of the Bible really have been written by Moses when they tell us of his death?

After listing such problems, Rehork continues: “These are only a few examples of inconsistencies in the Bible.”2

Rehork is careful to clarify that the question about the Bible being true can be answered on different levels. He is not concerned in the book with those truths for which history cannot provide confirmation. Belief, religious conviction, and the subjective feeling that something is right fall within a domain outside of historical confirmation. History cannot prove or disprove a document of faith. Where historical investigation ends, faith begins. We can produce proofs for or against the Bible as a historical source, but the Bible has a different level of being right.

But is the Bible always right? Rehork poses this question and then in his answer reveals something of the difficulty some scholars face in trying to make clear their findings. He writes that as far as Biblical statements are confirmed by archeological discoveries and parallel sources we can answer in the affirmative. For statements that are not so confirmed, we can look for another form of rightness. The Bible is right in some passages in giving us some insight into the thought and behavior of the people who wrote the book. And perhaps one day we will be able to affirm that the Bible is right after all, “as seen through the eyes of the people of its times!”3

Such ambivalence is an indication of the sort of difficulty Biblical scholars face when they cannot make their findings clear. On the one hand he affirms that the Bible is inconsistent; on the other hand he affirms that the faith is fine. On the one hand he was able to say about the Bible: “There is no end to the problems.”4 On the other hand, he finds a way to maintain that the faith is true.

I conclude by referring back to what Father Roland de Vaux said: “. . . if Israel’s historical faith does not have its roots in history, then it is wrong and the same is true of our faith.”5 We began by asking whether or not the Bible is historically accurate--whether it is true. We have seen that it is “full of problematical statements,” that it contains “inconsistencies” and that there is “no end to the problems.”

NOTES:

1. Werner Keller, The Bible as History, 2nd revised edition (US: Bantam, 1988) p. 434
2. Ibid, p. 435
3. Ibid, p. 438
4. Ibid, p. 436
5. Ibid, p. 435
...

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-11-2005, 11:59 PM
Moreover, all biblical scholars acknowledge the presence of errors in the Tanakh. Let's take a look one at a time.

Contradiction #5
How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?
(a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26).
(b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2).

:w:

morrissey
04-12-2005, 12:15 AM
None of your contradictions are from the Torah.....

It is the Torah that has to be unchanged, and it is unchanged.

You know the difference between the Torah and TaNaKh, dont you?

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-12-2005, 01:35 AM
:sl:, that's fine Morrissey, but then you do agree that the rest of the Tanakh is corrupted and cannot be attributed to God, right?

So you are left believing only a small part of Judaism's scriptures.

Let's continue with our historical examination of the Torah.

To start, we will quote Aaron Demsky (http://www.jhom.com/topics/firsts/names.html):


Another feature of the sabbatical year is the public reading of the Torah during the holiday of Booth (Tabernacles), which concludes the year (Deuteronomy 31:10-13). There is no textual evidence attesting to the observance of the sabbatical and jubilee years in First Temple times. In fact, the auhtor of Chronicles... makes the claim that the 70 sabbatical years from the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites until the destruction of the Temple were not observed (A. Demsky, "Who Returned First: Ezra or Nehemiah", Bible Review, vol. xii, no. 2, April 1996, p.33.)

According to the Damascus document, the Lord gave the Torah to Moses in its entirety in written form. These writings were sealed in the Ark for approximately five centuries, however, and were therefore unfamiliar to the masses. Discussing the problem of David's adulterous relationship with Bathsheba, and why he was not put to death, the Damascus document answers,

The books of the Law had been sealed in the Ark from the time of Joshua [c. 1200 BCE] until the time of King Josiah of judah [seventh century BCE], when they rediscovered and republished [see 2 Kings 22]. (G.A. Anderson, "Torah Before Sinai - The Do's and Don't Before the Ten Commandments", Bible Review, vol. xii, no. 3, June 1996, p. 43.

Meaning that David and the Rabbis who were his contemporaries were completely oblivious as to what was written in the Torah.

:w:

SpaceFalcon2001
04-13-2005, 03:29 AM
So you are left believing only a small part of Judaism's scriptures. Since that is the scripture that determines the laws, and the one actually given by God, I would say that's pretty important.

Equally, would anyone say that belief in the Quran (and not your history books) leaves you believing in only a small part of Islamic scripture?

IzakHalevas
12-20-2006, 01:00 AM
Anyways i dont wana get yelled at, back to topic?

Very well.

The Torah is not CORRUPT. Now we are on topic. :)

Umar001
12-20-2006, 01:05 AM
Very well.

The Torah is not CORRUPT. Now we are on topic. :)

Out of curiosity, how do you know that, I mean, what do Jews rely upon to testify that their book has not been changed newhere as much as a dot.

Eesa.

Muslim Woman
12-20-2006, 01:23 AM
Salaam;

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=52247


Who wrote the Bible ?


Specific Contradictions in the Books of the Jews

The following are just a few of many pairs of verses which contradict one another in the books of the Jews:

2 Samuel 8: 4: (7 hundred horsemen)
1 Chronicles 18: 4: (7 thousand horsemen)

1 Chronicles 21: 12: (three years famine)
2 Samuel 24: 13: (seven years famine)

Deuteronomy 2:19 & Deuteronomy 2: 37: (Moses deprived land of Ammon)
Joshua 13: 24-25: (Moses gives land of Ammon as inheritance)

2 Samuel 24: 9: (800,000+500,000)
1 Chronicles 21: 5: (1,100,000+470,000)




2 Chronicles 36: 9: (eight years, three months +10 days)
2 Kings 24: 8: (eighteen years, three months)

[Summarized from an article by: Misheal A. Al-Kadhi]


Wednesday : 10/12/2003



http://www.muslimplanet.com/pictures/200waysdetails.jpg


It was after writing his first book, that Ghounem founded “Jews for Allah” which is now a worldwide known organization: http://www.jewsforallah.com.


Ghounem has accomplished these tasks while also being the webmaster and writer for http://www.convertstoislam.org , http://www.islamicdownloads.com , and http://www.jesus-or-allah.com



Ghounem has spent over half a dozen years inviting non-Muslims to Islam, including Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, and Jews. Ghounem's literature is linked to almost a thousand other Islamic sites and Masjids.



His newest work is the book titled 200+ Ways the Quran corrects the Bible, How Islam Unites Judaism and Christianity which brings a new level of comparative religion to the world.



The book is a compilation of his years of researching and debating Christian and Jewish scholars. Ghounem states that this book brings to light the miracles of the Quran to the Jews and Christians and gives them over 200 reasons to believe in the Quran.



Ghounem aspires to win a Pulitzer and or Nobel peace prize, but most of all, to spread the truth of Islam and serve Allah.
http://www.muslimplanet.com/Islamic-book-store

Hijrah
12-20-2006, 01:24 AM
Not to say that the Torah is corrupt but you are making similar accusations towards Islam for this:

Moses and the Israelites kill all the males and take the women and children as slaves
Numbers 31. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 2. Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites...3. And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the Lord of Midian...6. And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe...7. And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 8. And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. 9. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. 10. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. 11. And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. 12. And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses.”

Moses commands the death of 3 000
Exodus 32: 28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

Judah kills 10 000
Judges 1:4 And Judah went up; and the Lord delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men.”

The Israelites killes 12 000 Men and Women
Joshua 8:24-6, And it came to pass, when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness wherein they chased them, and when they were all fallen on the edge of the sword, until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned unto Ai, and smote it with the edge of the sword. And so it was, that all that fell that day, both of men and women, were twelve thousand, even all the men of Ai. For Joshua drew not his hand back…until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
David kills 22 000
2 Samuel 8:5, “And when the Syrians of Damascus came to succour Hadadezer king of Zobah, David slew of the Syrians two and twenty thousand men.

Israelites kill 100 000
1 kings 20:29 and the children of Israel slew of the Syrians an hundred thousand footmen in one day.

IzakHalevas
12-20-2006, 02:46 AM
Out of curiosity, how do you know that, I mean, what do Jews rely upon to testify that their book has not been changed newhere as much as a dot.


The Torah has been handed down "ldor vador" from generation to generation. It has never been lost and it has never been changed.

There was never a generation since Moshe without Torah. We have the names. We know who did what and when. (From Aish):

Moses (1272 B.C.E.)
Joshua (1245 B.C.E.)
Pinchus
Eli (929 B.C.E.)
Samuel (889 B.C.E.)
David (876 B.C.E.)
Achiah (800 B.C.E.)
Elijah (726 B.C.E.)
Elishah (717 B.C.E.)
Yehoyada (695 B.C.E.)
Zechariah (680 B.C.E.)
Hoshea (575 B.C.E.)
Amos (560 B.C.E.)
Isaiah (548 B.C.E.)
Michah (560 B.C.E.)
Yoel (510 B.C.E.)
Nachum (510 B.C.E.)
Chavakuk (510 B.C.E.)
Tzafaniah (460 B.C.E.)
Jeremiah (462 B.C.E.)
Baruch (347 B.C.E.)
Ezra (348 B.C.E.)
Shimon Hatzadik (310 B.C.E.)
Antignus of Socho (305 B.C.E.)
Yosi ben Yoezer and
Yosef ben Yochanon (280 B.C.E.)
Yehoshua ben Prachya and
Nitai of Arbel (243 B.C.E.)
Yehuda ben Tabai and
Shimon ben Shetach (198 B.C.E.)
Shmaya & Avtalyon (140 B.C.E.)
Hillel & Shammai (40 B.C.E.)
Rabban Shimon (10 B.C.E.)
Rabban Gamliel Hazaken (20 C.E.)
Rav Shimon ben Gamliel (50)
Rabban Gamliel (90)
Rabban Shimon (140)
Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi (180)
Rav, Shmuel, and Rabbi Yochanon (230)
Rav Huna (270)
Rabbah (310)
Rava (340)
Rav Ashi (420)
Rafram (443)
Rav Sam a B'rei d'Rava (476)
Rav Yosi (514)
Rav Simonia Rav Ravoi Me-Rov (589)
Mar Chanan Me-Ashkaya (608)
Rav Mari
Rav Chana Gaon
Mar Rav Rava
Rav Busai (689)
Mar Rav Huna Mari
Mar Rav Chiyah Me-Mishan
Mar Ravyah
Mar Rav Natronai
Mar Rav Yehuda (739)
Mar Rav Yosef (748)
Mar Rav Shmuel
Mar Rav Natroi Kahana
Mar Rav Avrohom Kahana (761)
Mar Rav Dodai
Rav Chananya (771)
Rav Maika (773)
Mar Rav Rava
Mar Rav Shinoi (782)
Mar Rav Chaninah Gaon Kahana (785)
Mar Rav Huna Mar Halevi (788)
Mar Rav Menasheh (796)
Mar Rav Yeshaya Halevi (804)
Mar Rav Kahanah Gaon (797)
Mar Rav Yosef
Mar Rav Ibomai Gaon (814)
Mar Rav Yosef
Mar Rav Avrohom
Mar Rav Yosef (834)
Mar Rav Yitzchak (839)
Mar Rav Yosef (841)
Mar Rav Poltoi (858)
Mar Rav Achai Kahana
Mar Rav Menachem (860)
Mar Rav Matisyahu (869)
Rav Mar Abba
Mar Rav Tzemach Gaon (891)
Mar Rav Hai Gaon (897)
Mar Rav Kimoi Gaon (905)
Mar Rav Yehuda (917)
Mar Rav Mevasser Kahana Gaon (926)
Rav Kohen Tzedek (935)
Mar Rav Tzemach Gaon (937)
Rav Chaninah Gaon (943)
Mar Rav Aharon Hacohen (959)
Mar Rav Nechemiah (968)
Rav Sherirah Gaon (1006)
Meshulam Hagadol
Rav Gershom Meor Hagolah (1040)
Rav Yaakov ben Yakar (1064)
Rav Shlomo Yitzchaki - '"Rashi'" (1105)
R' Shmuel ben Meir (Rashbam) (1174)
R' Yaakov ben Meir (Rabbenu Tam) (1171)
Eliezer Me-Metz (1175)
Rokeach (1238)
R' Yitzchak of Vienna (Ohr Zaruah)
Rav Meir of Rothenberg (1293)
R' Yitzchak of Duren (Shaarei Durah)
R' Alexander Zusiein Hakohen (Agudah) (1348)
Meir Bar Baruch Halevi (1390)
R' Sholom of Neustadt
R' Yaakov Moelin (Maharil) (1427)
R' Yisroel Isserlein (Trumas Hadeshen) (1460)
R' Tavoli
Rabbi Yaakov Margolies (1501)
Rabbi Yaakov Pollak (1530)
Rabbi Sholom Shachna (1558)
Rabbi Moshe Isserles '"Rama'" (1572)
Rabbi Yehoshua Falk Katz (1614)
Rabbi Naftoli Hirsch ben Pesachya (1650)
Rabbi Moshe Rivkas - '"Be'er Hagolah'" (1671)
Rabbi Avraham Gombiner (1682)
Rabbi Moshe Kramer (1688)
Rabbi Eliyahu Chasid (1710)
Rabbi Yissachar Ber (1740)
Rabbi Shlomo Zalman (1765)
Rabbi Eliyahu Kramer - '"Vilna Gaon'" (1797)
Rabbi Chaim Voloziner (1821)
Rabbi Zundel of Salant (1866)
Rabbi Yisroel Salanter (1883)
Rabbi Simcha Zissel of Chelm (1888)
Rabbi Yerucham Lebovitz (1936)

Pirkei Avos (Ethics of the Fathers) Mishna 1

Moshe Ki'bel Torah M'Sinai:

MOSHE RECEIVED (ki'bel) TORAH FROM SINAI AND TRANSMITTED IT (u'm'sa-ra) TO JOSHUA, AND JOSHUA TO THE ELDERS, AND THE ELDERS TO THE PROPHETS, AND THE PROPHETS TRANSMITTED IT TO THE MEN OF THE GREAT ASSEMBLY.


PLUS! After the dead sea scrolls were found, there were no changes to the Tanakh! Whe compared from dead sea scrolls to modern day tanakh only i think a few letters were changed and this did not change a word!!! Just a pronounciations for example "color" or "colour"...

That means it went unchanged for such a long time!

Plus, Torah has been memorized throughout generations, studied very hard and passed down, there is no way it could have been corrupted.

Plus, if you ever go to a shul, when they read the Torah and the reciter messes up a single word, you have 20 people yelling out to correct him.

YusufNoor
12-20-2006, 03:46 AM
Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Shalom Izak,

i hope this thread becomes more civilized. i don't KNOW where changes have been made in the Tanakh, although i've seen them suggested. but i'd rather not declare something "bad" that might have Hashem G-d as a source. i've read, in Muhammed Asad's The Messsage of the Qur'an that "changes" referred to "in Scripture" MIGHT be attributed to the Talmud and not the Torah. as in, the Talmud & Mishnah are now the law, and not the Torah. i'd want some pretty good evidence to say this is wrong or that's wrong. or at least a better source than me!

scribes can make errors so when different numbers don't add up, not a big deal to me. the Priestly stuff seems a bit out of place to me though...


The Torah has been handed down "ldor vador" from generation to generation. It has never been lost and it has never been changed.

There was never a generation since Moshe without Torah. We have the names. We know who did what and when. (From Aish):


THAT, however, can be shown untrue by the Tanakh itself.

and Al:


And what authority does the Seerah hold, do you know the level of authenticity it has?

i cited book and pp numbers, YOU TELL ME! :heated:
cuz, i don't know. i could print the footnote at the bottom of the page. oh, and i assuming you're referring to the 1 woman killed. A'isha(RA) is the source for the story.


Peace,

:w:

Yusuf

IzakHalevas
12-20-2006, 04:09 AM
the Talmud & Mishnah are now the law, and not the Torah. i'd want some pretty good evidence to say this is wrong or that's wrong. or at least a better source than me!


Since there are 613 laws and all of them come from the Torah. I do not understand what you mean. The Talmud offers commentary and completion to the Torah. The Torah will make a statement and expect you to know the Oral Law. Which was written down when Jews persecuted heavily so it would not be lost. The Oral Law and Torah fit together like puzzle pieces.

I know men who dedicate there lives to studying Talmud and Torah, so I believe that most islamic sources do not have the slightest clue.


THAT, however, can be shown untrue by the Tanakh itself.



That is a conflict of belief.

YusufNoor
12-20-2006, 04:49 AM
Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Shalom Izak,

[QUOTE]=IzakHalevas;601971]Since there are 613 laws and all of them come from the Torah. I do not understand what you mean. The Talmud offers commentary and completion to the Torah. The Torah will make a statement and expect you to know the Oral Law. Which was written down when Jews persecuted heavily so it would not be lost. The Oral Law and Torah fit together like puzzle pieces.

I know men who dedicate there lives to studying Talmud and Torah, so I believe that most islamic sources do not have the slightest clue.
[QUOTE]

i was relating what Mr. Asad said.(you chopped off part of what i wrote) however, what i "think" he means is that at some point Talmud & Torah are going to contradict and/or when a real hard choice comes down, you chance replacing the "things of G-d" with the "things of man."

[QUOTE]THAT, however, can be shown untrue by the Tanakh itself.That is a conflict of belief.[//QUOTE]

the chain of evidence that you gave, it IS NOT in agreement with the Tanakh. (which IS NOT considered an Islamic source.) therefor incorrect. which kind of proves Mr. Asad's point, now that i think of it...

Peace,

:w:

Yusuf

Muslim Woman
12-20-2006, 08:33 AM
Salaam;





...........Plus, Torah has been memorized throughout generations, studied very hard and passed down, there is no way it could have been corrupted.
..



I did not read ur full post ,this line grabbed my attention.


How many Rabbis are there who memorized the whole Torah ? We regularly have Quran competitions . Quran Hafiz ( those who remember the whole Quran by heart/memorized the Quran ) take part in the competition .

Can u tell me if any Torah memorize competition takes place anywhere in the world ?

IzakHalevas
12-20-2006, 12:17 PM
he means is that at some point Talmud & Torah are going to contradict and/or when a real hard choice comes down, you chance replacing the "things of G-d" with the "things of man."


The Talmud is based on the Torah. There would be no lw that would conflict Halacha.


I did not read ur full post ,this line grabbed my attention.


How many Rabbis are there who memorized the whole Torah ? We regularly have Quran competitions . Quran Hafiz ( those who remember the whole Quran by heart/memorized the Quran ) take part in the competition .

Can u tell me if any Torah memorize competition takes place anywhere in the world ?

In Yeshivas all over the place people memorize the Torah. They have been doing so since before Islam. When the Holocaust began people were soscared Judaism may be wiped out since they were burning all Torah many memorized the Torah.

I think you underestimate the memorization of the Torah is to how it has been preserved.

YusufNoor
12-20-2006, 01:51 PM
Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Shalom Brother Izak


The Torah has been handed down "ldor vador" from generation to generation. It has never been lost and it has never been changed.

There was never a generation since Moshe without Torah. We have the names. We know who did what and when.

Astaghfirullah, for my asking, but WHY do you believe that? are you required to make that statement? do you say it AND believe it?

it's NOT a correct statement and it IS refuted in the Tanakh.

Peace,

:w:

Yusuf

Muslim Woman
12-20-2006, 02:26 PM
Salaam;


....



In Yeshivas all over the place people memorize the Torah. ....

Pl. explain more. How many Rabbis or others memorized the whole Torah now a days ?

How can u check that if really they memorized whole Torah ? Personally did u check by urself ...i mean ask someone to recite from memory & u checked with Torah that s/he recited exactly as it is in Torah ?

There are CD's available online where u can see how Muslims are being tested by other Hafizs . Is there any CD online where we can watch about those who memorized the whole Torah ?

IzakHalevas
12-20-2006, 04:15 PM
Astaghfirullah, for my asking, but WHY do you believe that? are you required to make that statement? do you say it AND believe it?

it's NOT a correct statement and it IS refuted in the Tanakh.


Are you going to now post these petty "contradictions" that are none other than people who copy and paste propaganda that is untrue?


Pl. explain more. How many Rabbis or others memorized the whole Torah now a days ?

How can u check that if really they memorized whole Torah ? Personally did u check by urself ...i mean ask someone to recite from memory & u checked with Torah that s/he recited exactly as it is in Torah ?

There are CD's available online where u can see how Muslims are being tested by other Hafizs . Is there any CD online where we can watch about those who memorized the whole Torah ?

Since the ultra-orthodox sects who memorize the Torah believe CD's, Internet, TV ect to be evil and part of the temptations to go another path away from G-d, I am not sure you will find many online.

YusufNoor
12-20-2006, 08:02 PM
Are you going to now post these petty "contradictions" that are none other than people who copy and paste propaganda that is untrue?



Since the ultra-orthodox sects who memorize the Torah believe CD's, Internet, TV ect to be evil and part of the temptations to go another path away from G-d, I am not sure you will find many online.

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Shalom Izak,

Astaghfirullah, you misunderstand me. it's IN the Tanakh. i'm waiting for an answer from you before i post it. you can verify it, before i do and change your statement.

i just don't understand why someone has you saying something that isn't true as i don't think that you would knowingly post something that isn't correct. (i'm kinda surprised that you don't know what i'm talking about. PM me, if you want a chance to see it before i post it. just trying to be fair)

Peace,

:w:

Yusuf

Muslim Woman
12-21-2006, 12:25 AM
Salaam;




........Since the ultra-orthodox sects who memorize the Torah believe CD's, Internet, TV ect to be evil and part of the temptations to go another path away from G-d, I am not sure you will find many online.


How do u know that they memorized the entire Torah ? Did u or some other Rabbis checked it ?

I am not talking about memorizing few chapters ....the whole Torah.

Why is that only ultra-orthodox sects memorized Torah & we can't even see them reciting from memory ? What about other Jews ....why don't they memorized their holy books ?

Thousands if not millions Arab & non-Arabs Muslims memorized the full Quran & there are several tests to decide/prove that yes , really they are Qurane Haifz.


I saw such a CD .....a little boy aged only 5 , Masha Allah , faced a group of senior Hafizs & scholars of different countries ....they asked them to recite from certain chapters & so beautifully & bravely that little Irani boy faced the challenged.

IzakHalevas
12-21-2006, 12:45 AM
How do u know that they memorized the entire Torah ? Did u or some other Rabbis checked it ?

Actually there is a man at a shul I have gone to sometimes that has a man that has memorized the entire Torah. People test him (i tried it once) by asking him to begin reciting from a random verse.

I just pulled a verse out of my head and he began reciting for about 25 minutes until I told him to stop completly fascinated. It is truly amazing, including when it is done with Quran memorizing as well.


Why is that only ultra-orthodox sects memorized Torah & we can't even see them reciting from memory ? What about other Jews ....why don't they memorized their holy books ?


Most other Jews are secular, but of course there are other Jews that do memorize but I am not sure how many videos they are in. The practice was a lot more prevalent in the times when Jews were persecuted a lot, now with the safety of Jews in countries with no Rome, Christians, or Nazis to kill us, many Jews have not undertaken the great task. I believe they should however.


Thousands if not millions Arab & non-Arabs Muslims memorized the full Quran & there are several tests to decide/prove that yes , really they are Qurane Haifz.


I saw such a CD .....a little boy aged only 5 , Masha Allah , faced a group of senior Hafizs & scholars of different countries ....they asked them to recite from certain chapters & so beautifully & bravely that little Irani boy faced the challenged.

Very impressive, however since the population of Islam is over a billion while Judaism is 14 million and a big majority are secular Jews, I would have to say that it is harder to find in Judaism.

Muslim Woman
12-21-2006, 01:09 AM
Salaam;


......

I just pulled a verse out of my head and he began reciting for about 25 minutes until I told him to stop completly fascinated....


well, i guess , u don't memorized the whole Torah. So, how do u know that he did not make any mistake ? U checked with Torah & found that he recited exactly as it is in the holy book ?

By the way , the original language of Torah is Hebrew.....am i right ? Do u know Hebrew ?

Earlier u mentioned that Torah is not corrputed as it was/is memorized by many ; then why we don't see them ( what do u call them who memorized the full Torah ?) like we see so many Qurane Hafiz ?


During each Ramadan , Imams all over the world , recite the entire Quran in Tarabi prayer. It's not possible that any one can make any changes in Quran. Hafiz will catch them easily . So, i want to know in details--- how Jews memorized the Torah & saved it from corruption ?

When one claims that s/he memorized the Torah , how Jews check the claim ?

IzakHalevas
12-21-2006, 01:29 AM
well, i guess , u don't memorized the whole Torah. So, how do u know that he did not make any mistake ? U checked with Torah & found that he recited exactly as it is in the holy book ?


Yes, I watched him say it exactly right not one mistake for 25 minutes as I checked every word he said in the book while he said it. It was truly amazing, as are the Quran memorizers. I picked a random verse, he started and did not stutter or stop for 25 min till i asked him.

If you wish, I will ask him if he would like to be video taped doing this and I could post it here!


By the way , the original language of Torah is Hebrew.....am i right ? Do u know Hebrew ?


Yes. I know Hebrew. I and about 20 others followed him each looking and analyzing every word he said while looking at our Khumashim.


Earlier u mentioned that Torah is not corrputed as it was/is memorized by many ; then why we don't see them ( what do u call them who memorized the full Torah ?) like we see so many Qurane Hafiz ?

We don't really have a name, They are just called "tzadik" righteous people devoting there life to G-d and his Torah.


During each Ramadan , Imams all over the world , recite the entire Quran in Tarabi prayer. It's not possible that any one can make any changes in Quran. Hafiz will catch them easily . So, i want to know in details--- how Jews memorized the Torah & saved it from corruption ?


To tell you the truth I do not know, but we are demanded to have Torah study everyday and other things, in my mind there is no way it could have been corrupted. Jews would have noticed risen up and slayed anyone who tried.

Rami88
07-10-2010, 01:22 PM
Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Shalom Izak,

Astaghfirullah, you misunderstand me. it's IN the Tanakh. i'm waiting for an answer from you before i post it. you can verify it, before i do and change your statement.

i just don't understand why someone has you saying something that isn't true as i don't think that you would knowingly post something that isn't correct. (i'm kinda surprised that you don't know what i'm talking about. PM me, if you want a chance to see it before i post it. just trying to be fair)

Peace,

:w:

Yusuf
Assalamu 'alaykum

Post it please.

YusufNoor
07-10-2010, 02:08 PM
Assalamu 'alaykum

Post it please.

:sl:

here's the original statement that i said was refuted IN THE TANAKH!:



The Torah has been handed down "ldor vador" from generation to generation. It has never been lost and it has never been changed.

There was never a generation since Moshe without Torah. We have the names. We know who did what and when.


now read II Kings chapter 22 [makes it easy to remember!]:


2 Kings 22
Josiah Succeeds Amon
1(A)Josiah was eight years old when he became king, and he reigned thirty-one years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Jedidah the daughter of Adaiah of (B)Bozkath.

2He did right in the sight of the LORD and walked in all the way of his father David, nor did he (C)turn aside to the right or to the left.

3Now (D)in the eighteenth year of King Josiah, the king sent Shaphan, the son of Azaliah the son of Meshullam the scribe, to the house of the LORD saying,

4"(E)Go up to Hilkiah the high priest that he may count the money brought in to the house of the LORD which the doorkeepers have gathered from the people.

5"(F)Let them deliver it into the hand of the workmen who have the oversight of the house of the LORD, and let them give it to the workmen who are in the house of the LORD to repair the damages of the house,

6to the carpenters and the builders and the masons and for buying timber and hewn stone to repair the house.

7"Only (G)no accounting shall be made with them for the money delivered into their hands, for they deal faithfully."
The Lost Book
8Then Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the scribe, "(H)I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD." And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan who read it.

9Shaphan the scribe came to the king and brought back word to the king and said, "Your servants have emptied out the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of the workmen who have the oversight of the house of the LORD."

10Moreover, Shaphan the scribe told the king saying, "Hilkiah the priest has given me a book." And Shaphan read it in the presence of the king.

11When the king heard the words of the book of the law, (I)he tore his clothes.

12Then the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, (J)Ahikam the son of Shaphan, (K)Achbor the son of Micaiah, Shaphan the scribe, and Asaiah the king's servant saying,

13"Go, inquire of the LORD for me and the people and all Judah concerning the words of this book that has been found, for (L)great is the wrath of the LORD that burns against us, because our fathers have not listened to the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us."
Huldah Predicts
14So Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Achbor, Shaphan, and Asaiah went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of (M)Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe (now she lived in Jerusalem in the (N)Second Quarter); and they spoke to her.

15She said to them, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel, 'Tell the man who sent you to me,

16thus says the LORD, "Behold, I (O)bring evil on this place and on its inhabitants, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah has read.

17"(P)Because they have forsaken Me and have burned incense to other gods that they might provoke Me to anger with all the work of their hands, therefore My wrath burns against this place, and it shall not be quenched."'

18"But to (Q)the king of Judah who sent you to inquire of the LORD thus shall you say to him, 'Thus says the LORD God of Israel, "Regarding the words which you have heard,
19(R)because your heart was tender and (S)you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I spoke against this place and against its inhabitants that they should become (T)a desolation and a (U)curse, and you have (V)torn your clothes and wept before Me, I truly have heard you," declares the LORD.

20"Therefore, behold, I will gather you to your fathers, and (W)you will be gathered to your grave in peace, and your eyes will not see all the evil which I will bring on this place."'" So they brought back word to the king.

in the Rubin Edition of The Prophets published by Mesorah Publications' a VERY conservative company that publishes phenomenal versions of the Torah and Tanakh [i have MANY of their publications] translates verse 8:

...i have found the Torah Scroll in the Temple of Hashem...

in v 11, Hilkiah goes into mourning because and THEN he has to send [in v 13] to "inquire" of the Prophetess "concerning the book"

WHY? [v13], because our fathers have not listened to the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us!

now, lets see what we've been told here:

1 a scroll of the Law (Torah) has been found

2 the King, Hilkiah, had to ask a prophetess if, in fact, that scroll was authentic! WHY? he had NEVER heard the Torah before!
and

3 the people hadn't heard it before either!

conclusion:

the Torah had indeed been lost!

alternative conclusion:

the "scroll" found was NOT the ENTIRE Torah, just the Book of Deuteronomy. WHY hadn't anyone heard this book before? because Jeremiah had dictated it to his scribe Baruch. see:
http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Richard-Elliott-Friedman/dp/0060630353

the result:

this is EXACTLY WHY the Nation of Judah was destroyed! they were THE "People of the Book" who
LOST said book! God destroyed them for this, IT'S IN THEIR BOOK!!!!!

i'm kinda surprised someone finally asked!

JazakAllah Khair,

:wa:

syed_z
07-10-2010, 02:19 PM
Salaam to all...

i don't know if you Brothers/sisters have Heard about a Book named "Who Wrote the Bible" by Harvard Trained Biblical Scholar named Richard Friedman....he proved that after the death of Hazrat Suleiman (a.s) (Solomon), that Israelites made many interpolations and changes in the Old Testament....


The Israelites removed all references in the Torah to the temple (or masjid) built
by Hadrat Ibrahim (AS) and Hadrat Isma'il (AS) in Arabia. The Kaaba and the Hajj are no longer to be found in the Torah!

They also substituted all references to Hadrat Isma'il (AS) as the son of the sacrifice with the name of his brother Hadrat Ishaq (AS), even though Ishaq (AS) was not even born when the trial of the sacrifice took place.

They substituted Arabia with Palestine as the place of the sacrifice. Zam Zam, the miraculous spring of water which sprang from the desert sand when Jibra'il (AS) rubbed his heel on the sand, now became a well in Palestine.

They demonized Hadrat Isma'il (AS) and excluded him from Allah's covenant so that they could claim exclusive title to being the chosen people of Allah. But most dangerous of all was their corruption and willful distortion of the Divine prohibition against Usury. They rewrote the Torah to make it permissible for money to be lent on interest to non-Jews while yet maintaining the prohibition against Usury in intra-Jewish transactions (Deuteronomy 23:20-21)


Also just to verify the above about Interest Based Transactions, Jesus Son Mary (a.s) had argued and warned the Jews against the dealings of Interest Based transactions that they were dealing at the time. He cursed them, turned over their tables, chased them out of the masjid and declared: "You have taken the house of Allah and transformed it into a den of thieves."

Book of Mathews Chapter 12 Verses 33 34...


Please review the Interview of Richard Friedman here...

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2004/02/The-Editorial-Team-Behind-The-Bible.aspx


There is plenty of evidence out there that Old Testament has gone through many changes!

Rabi Mansur
07-11-2010, 02:17 AM
Salaam to all...

i don't know if you Brothers/sisters have Heard about a Book named "Who Wrote the Bible" by Harvard Trained Biblical Scholar named Richard Friedman....he proved that after the death of Hazrat Suleiman (a.s) (Solomon), that Israelites made many interpolations and changes in the Old Testament....



Yes! Thanks for mentioning "Who Wrote the Bible?" I studied that book a few years ago and HIGHLY recommend it for anyone who is serious about how the Torah came to be. Very good book.

:wa:

muslim787
07-11-2010, 04:46 PM
None of your contradictions are from the Torah.....

It is the Torah that has to be unchanged, and it is unchanged.
+o(
You know the difference between the Torah and TaNaKh, dont you?


Hi,

Tanakh being Jewish version of the Old Testament, first 5 books of which are called the Torah.

Amazing feat, being able to keep alomost word perfect copy of 3000 year old manuscript. Unfortunately we don't know if it is the same Torah given to Moses by Allah swt. Until the day comes when the orginal is discovered, preserved in a jar somewhere, we can all but study the script for clues on authorship.

Genesis is a good starting point, consider chapter 14.

The writer gives an account of Lot being taken prisoner in a battle between the four kings against five, and carried off; and that when the account of Lot being taken came to Abraham, that he armed all his household and marched to rescue Lot from the captors; and that he pursued them unto Dan. (ver. 14.)

source: jewish virtual library genesis 14 (I'm not currently allowed to post links)

Problem here is that there was no place called Dan in the time of Moses who died approx 1451 BC.

In fact, Dan didn't even come into being until after the death of the Prophet Samson who died 1101 BC. A whopping 350 years after Moses!

Moses : all the w's conservapedia dot co m / Moses
Samson : all the w's conservapedia dot co m / Samson

The place that is called Dan in the Bible was originally a town of the Gentiles, called Laish; and when the tribe of Dan seized upon this town, they changed its name to Dan, in commemoration of Dan, who was the father of that tribe, and the great grandson of Abraham.

Judges 18:26-29

26 And the children of Dan went their way; and when Micah saw that they were too strong for him, he turned and went back unto his house.

27 And they took that which Micah had made, and the priest whom he had, and came unto Laish, unto a people quiet and secure, and smote them with the edge of the sword; and they burnt the city with fire.

28 And there was no deliverer, because it was far from Zidon, and they had no dealings with any man; and it was in the valley that lieth by Beth-rehob. And they built the city, and dwelt therein.

29 And they called the name of the city Dan, after the name of Dan their father, who was born unto Israel; howbeit the name of the city was Laish at the first.

ref: jewishvirtuallibrary dot org / jsource/Bible / Judges18 .h t m l

So to summarize, parts of Genesis written approx 350 years after Moses. Some Scholars say it may have been written whilst the Jews were in exile, perhaps in Babylon.

Peace be upon all the Prophets of Allah swt mentioned above.

جوري
07-18-2010, 10:08 PM
oral traditions if not written down and super-imposed for veracity have a way of evolving by chinese whispers. You should conduct that experiment yourself, tell your friend something and have them tell that to someone else for every day of the week and then the last person who heard it should report it back to you, and let's see how close that is to what you have originally stated before requesting that we under or over-estimate the power of Jewish memory!

all the best

Hugo
08-04-2010, 07:56 PM
Yes! Thanks for mentioning "Who Wrote the Bible?" I studied that book a few years ago and HIGHLY recommend it for anyone who is serious about how the Torah came to be. Very good book.

You might also try "Who wrote the Bible by Washington Gladden and you can get it as as an eBook - but the Bible is NOT just the Torah is it. For balance you might also read Mondher Sfar's book "In Search of the Original Qu'ran - A true history of the text. They are both (including Friedman) interesting because they separate revelation from transmission, if you like they ignore the supernatural aspects and concentrate entirely on what we might call material facts - I think that is an admirable thing to do, do you?

(By the way even as an eBook Friedman costs about $15)

ya.azad
12-14-2010, 07:52 AM
The "Torah" is comprised of many separate books and ideas. The חמישה חומשה תורה/Chumash are the "five books of Moses" (Bere****, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar and Devarim) then there are the נווים/Prophets which go from Yehoshua to Malachi. Mesora (tradition) dictates that there were three separate types of Torah given to Moshe at Har Sinai: תורה שבכתב/Written Torah תורה שבעל פה/Oral Torah (which was passed down until Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi compiled the oral tradition into the Mishna and later the Gemara), and lastly קבלה/Kabala which is the Hidden/Spiritual Torah. All of these make up what is referred to and has been referred to as "Torah". It has been expanded as well, to include works of Chasidut, Mussar and Halacha (Shulchan Aruch etc).

ya.azad
12-14-2010, 07:58 AM
Also, in regards to corruption: The Chumash (which is what is contained in every Torah scroll throughout the world) has NOT been corrupted in any way shape or form as long as you are reading the original Hebrew text. Jews from Iran to Poland to China to Ethiopia to South Africa have all used the exact same text since the revelation at Har Sinai. There is one known corruption of the Chumash. It was a sefer Torah from Yemen, and there was ONE LETTER in ONE WORD that was misspelled, and that letter was an "ayin" instead of an "aleph" (ar: ayn/alif) ע/א which make around the same sound depending on your pronunciation. Everything else from the Prophets down is subject to corruption and the Oral tradition was clearly corrupted considering the entire Talmud is disagreements between different Rabbis about Halachic issues.

Rafeeq
12-14-2010, 10:27 AM
Also, in regards to corruption: The Chumash (which is what is contained in every Torah scroll throughout the world) has NOT been corrupted in any way shape or form as long as you are reading the original Hebrew text. Jews from Iran to Poland to China to Ethiopia to South Africa have all used the exact same text since the revelation at Har Sinai.

This issue is well addressed in post no. 55. Kindly check it there.

YusufNoor
12-14-2010, 03:15 PM
The "Torah" is comprised of many separate books and ideas. The חמישה חומשה תורה/Chumash are the "five books of Moses" (Bere****, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar and Devarim) then there are the נווים/Prophets which go from Yehoshua to Malachi. Mesora (tradition) dictates that there were three separate types of Torah given to Moshe at Har Sinai: תורה שבכתב/Written Torah תורה שבעל פה/Oral Torah (which was passed down until Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi compiled the oral tradition into the Mishna and later the Gemara), and lastly קבלה/Kabala which is the Hidden/Spiritual Torah. All of these make up what is referred to and has been referred to as "Torah". It has been expanded as well, to include works of Chasidut, Mussar and Halacha (Shulchan Aruch etc).


Also, in regards to corruption: The Chumash (which is what is contained in every Torah scroll throughout the world) has NOT been corrupted in any way shape or form as long as you are reading the original Hebrew text. Jews from Iran to Poland to China to Ethiopia to South Africa have all used the exact same text since the revelation at Har Sinai. There is one known corruption of the Chumash. It was a sefer Torah from Yemen, and there was ONE LETTER in ONE WORD that was misspelled, and that letter was an "ayin" instead of an "aleph" (ar: ayn/alif) ע/א which make around the same sound depending on your pronunciation. Everything else from the Prophets down is subject to corruption and the Oral tradition was clearly corrupted considering the entire Talmud is disagreements between different Rabbis about Halachic issues.

Peace

if all of these misconceptions were true, which they aren't [HERE, you will have to prove it], please explain why the Jews NO LONGER have their "once pure Hebrew with which they could describe the loftiest of holy concepts of prayer?"

and Jews pray 3 times a day, is this from Moses or Ezra?

and WHO wrote these prayers?

and why?

i say the Jews follow the religion of Ezra and NOT that of Moses. this is consistent with the Qur'an:



9:30
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved . May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
9:31
to top
Sahih International
[B]They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.
9:32
to top
Sahih International
They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.

Jews follow Ezra and the Anshei Knesset Hagedolah INSTEAD of Moses. of course, they weren't called Jews before they did this.

Peace

Perseveranze
12-14-2010, 07:19 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum,

Should read the book the Bible, the Quran and Science, has a good part about the Torah in it aswell :)

ya.azad
12-14-2010, 09:23 PM
Pure Hebrew as it was 4000 years ago is still intact in religious texts, this is a fact.
The three prayers were established by Avraham (Ibrahim), Yitzhak and Yaakov/Yisrael respectively (Shaharit/Morning-Avraham, Yitzhak-Minha/Midday Arvit/Night - Yaakov/Yisrael)
The prayers were originally prayed after Karbanot (Sacrificial offerings) Which ceased upon the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash (Temple), and are now simply prayers. The text of the prayers as seen in Siddurim is a supplement/crutch to the required "conversation" with God.

Ezra was a false Messiah with no relation or significance to changes in the religion, he is recognized as such by all Jews.
People such as Ezra and Jesus are recognized by Judaism (yes, there are stories about Yehoshua M'Natzerat/Joshua-Jesus of Nazareth in the Gemara) as Jews who strayed from the Derech (way) of Hashem (God) and mislead others.

Jews are called Jews because the Assyrians killed all the tribes that were not "yehuda" yehuda=Judah Judah=Jew.

The Jews contemporary to Jesus and Muhammad (from the later temple period to exile from Eretz Yisrael) are recognized as corrupt by mainstream Judaism and do not in any way reflect Judaism as it is today.
Judaism as it is today is in all likelihood NOT the Judaism of Moshe Rabeinu, though the core concepts are intact.



BTW I am simply stating facts that do not reflect my personal views.

GreyKode
12-14-2010, 11:52 PM
The Jews contemporary to Jesus and Muhammad (from the later temple period to exile from Eretz Yisrael) are recognized as corrupt by mainstream Judaism and do not in any way reflect Judaism as it is today.
Judaism as it is today is in all likelihood NOT the Judaism of Moshe Rabeinu, though the core concepts are intact.



BTW I am simply stating facts that do not reflect my personal views.

So what u are saying is that all jews from period of prophets jesus and muhammad (pbut) are corrupt, while the later jews till today are mainstream?

Also, could u please enlighten us more about the kabbala a.k.a spiritual Torah as u stated previously, and what do u mean by hidden?. I have honestly read some disturbing things about kabbala related to promiscuity and sex and things that are completely ungodly, maybe u can clear this up.

ya.azad
12-15-2010, 12:15 AM
Not at all. The Jewish leadership during that period was, for the most part, corrupted. Individual Jews are not and cannot in any way be generalised as such. Jews today, for the most part, are actually uninformed and highly ignorant as to their religion and its roots. Movements such as "reform" "reconstructionist" "renewal" "conservative" are all entities that seek to limit Jews knowledge of true Judaism. Before movements such as this, every Jew learned about his/her religion and, conforming to Halacha, formed their own "brand" of personal spirituality and relationship with Hashem. "Orthodox" is a word coined by these movements to refer to the multitude of TYPES of true Judaism (or truer, at least), in an attempt to legitimise their laziness. The vast majority of Jews in the world, whether they identify as religious or not, do not know what they should about Judaism.

Kabalah, as "studied" by popstars such as Madonna and whoever else is NOT and has NO RELATION to true Kabalah. Kabalah is an intense way of spiritually viewing the world and connecting to God. Tradition tells us that it was also given at Har Sinai. The Zohar is the main text of Kabbala and was written by a rabbi named Moshe de Leon, from Spain. He in turn took the text and philosophy from an earlier and very well known Rabbi named Rav Shimon Bar Yochai, who was taught by older rabbis, going back and back. The Zohar is extremely potent in its spirituality and its very hard to understand its TRUE meaning without a lot of background knowledge, hence it is VERY EASILY misconstrued. In terms of the Zohar and sex, sex in Judaism is viewed as a Mitzva (Commandment) to engage in with your spouse (going back to Berei****/Genesis "פרו ורבו"/"be fruitful and many") Promiscuity is
a sin in the same category as murder and adultery.

Another school of thought based on Kabalah, focusing on Happiness and Spirituality was founded by HaRav Yisrael Baal Shem Tov (Rav Yisrael ben Eliezer). He felt that Judaism needed a spiritual reawakening and made it his focus to "translate" works of Kabbalah for those who were not as educated as needed to understand such texts as the Zohar. Followers of this school of thought (Hasidut חסידות) are called חסידים "Hasidim". Most of the world identifies them as "those crazy jews who wear the earlocks and black hats". However there is much, much more than that in their history.

Hiroshi
12-15-2010, 01:22 PM
especially when they're new born males were being systematically killed for the previous eight decades.

According to the Bible this command from Pharoah was never carried out (Exodus 1:17).

YusufNoor
12-15-2010, 01:47 PM
Pure Hebrew as it was 4000 years ago is still intact in religious texts, this is a fact.
The three prayers were established by Avraham (Ibrahim), Yitzhak and Yaakov/Yisrael respectively (Shaharit/Morning-Avraham, Yitzhak-Minha/Midday Arvit/Night - Yaakov/Yisrael)
The prayers were originally prayed after Karbanot (Sacrificial offerings) Which ceased upon the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash (Temple), and are now simply prayers. The text of the prayers as seen in Siddurim is a supplement/crutch to the required "conversation" with God.

Ezra was a false Messiah with no relation or significance to changes in the religion, he is recognized as such by all Jews.
People such as Ezra and Jesus are recognized by Judaism (yes, there are stories about Yehoshua M'Natzerat/Joshua-Jesus of Nazareth in the Gemara) as Jews who strayed from the Derech (way) of Hashem (God) and mislead others.

Jews are called Jews because the Assyrians killed all the tribes that were not "yehuda" yehuda=Judah Judah=Jew.

The Jews contemporary to Jesus and Muhammad (from the later temple period to exile from Eretz Yisrael) are recognized as corrupt by mainstream Judaism and do not in any way reflect Judaism as it is today.
Judaism as it is today is in all likelihood NOT the Judaism of Moshe Rabeinu, though the core concepts are intact.

BTW I am simply stating facts that do not reflect my personal views.

Peace,

it seems your "facts" are in dispute:


Pure Hebrew as it was 4000 years ago is still intact in religious texts, this is a fact.

Thus, to fulfill the Biblical commandment of prayer, one need not say certain words at certain times, but rather, at some point every day – or many times a day if one wishes – to turn to G-d and connect to Him on a personal level. That is the Mitzvah of prayer.

And so it was in ancient times – from the days of Moses through the First Temple Era – Jews would fulfill the Biblical commandment of prayer in exactly this way. However, after the Jews were exiled to Babylon, the general population lost the art of arranging meaningful prayers on their own. Their once pure Hebrew with which they could describe the loftiest of holy concepts became muddied and the common Jew was no longer able to compose eloquent praises or supplications.

Source - Rabbi Shais Taub:

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/577,2080045/Is-it-a-Mitzvah-commandment-to-pray.html


The three prayers were established by Avraham (Ibrahim), Yitzhak and Yaakov/Yisrael respectively (Shaharit/Morning-Avraham, Yitzhak-Minha/Midday Arvit/Night - Yaakov/Yisrael)

Thus, Ezra the Scribe and his court composed a standard text for every Jew. By using this script which includes in it general references to all matters one might wish to discuss with G-d, everyone would be sure to address G-d as articulately as possible. Each Jew’s personal signature, so to speak, would be in the feelings aroused in the heart during prayer.

Ezra and his court also enacted that Jews should pray at set times. Today one prays three times every day -- morning, afternoon and evening -- and four times on Shabbat, Biblical Holidays and Rosh Chodesh. Nevertheless, if one feels like speaking to G-d at any other time, one may and should do so as well. Indeed, that is the actual mitzvah from the Torah; that’s what it means to serve G-d with the heart.

same source


Ezra was a false Messiah with no relation or significance to changes in the religion, he is recognized as such by all Jews.

They were a group of 120 sages, amongst them several prophets, headed by Ezra the Scribe. Among the more prominent among them were: Mordechai of the Purim story, and Daniel, as in Daniel in the lion’s den. (Others included Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Zerubavel, Nehemiah son of Chachalayah, Chananiah, Mishael and Azaryah.) Shimon Hatzadik was the last of the Great Assembly.

Ezra established this Great Assembly in Israel shortly after the beginning of the Second Jewish Commonwealth (which began with the completion of the Second Temple in 349 BCE).

They instituted such many basic Jewish practices as the recitation of Kiddush on the Sabbath, Havdalah after the Sabbath, prayer three times a day, the Amidah prayer, and recitation of blessings before eating.

It is said that this “assembly” lasted about 200 years but their structuring of Jewish life is still intact to this very day.

source - Rabbi Yossi Marcus:

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/591,539/Who-were-the-Anshei-Knesset-Hagedolah-Men-of-the-Great-Assembly.html

that suggests MAJOR disagreement with your "facts!"

or, at it was said in the movies: "what we have here is a failure to communicate!"

:D

Peace

ya.azad
12-15-2010, 03:38 PM
Pure Hebrew does NOT equal ability to "arrange prayers"
The Hebrew read in the Chumash is indeed the original Hebrew that it was given in, don't twist Rabbi Taub's words. I'm sure he would agree with me.

And the court you speak of was called the "Sanhedrin" and was both pre Ezra and post Ezra.

Also we are speaking of a different Ezra. There was an Ezra around the time of Bar Kochba who claimed he was Mashiach. I was not aware that the Qur'an was referring to Ezra HaSofer. (Who was not viewed as a messiah, he simply (along with the rest of the sanhedrin) made halachic rulings dealing with the destruction of the temple, in order for Judaism to stay current.

Hiroshi
01-01-2011, 09:27 AM
Also, in regards to corruption: The Chumash (which is what is contained in every Torah scroll throughout the world) has NOT been corrupted in any way shape or form as long as you are reading the original Hebrew text. Jews from Iran to Poland to China to Ethiopia to South Africa have all used the exact same text since the revelation at Har Sinai. There is one known corruption of the Chumash. It was a sefer Torah from Yemen, and there was ONE LETTER in ONE WORD that was misspelled, and that letter was an "ayin" instead of an "aleph" (ar: ayn/alif) ע/א which make around the same sound depending on your pronunciation. Everything else from the Prophets down is subject to corruption and the Oral tradition was clearly corrupted considering the entire Talmud is disagreements between different Rabbis about Halachic issues.

This link:

http://livingtheway.org/sopherim.html

says:

There was, at one point in history, an organized attempt, by the very scribes who copied the Hebrew scriptures, to change certain words and phrases in the scriptures. One of the things that they did was to remove God’s name from scripture in 134 verses! 134 times, these scribes removed the name of God and substituted "Adonay," often out of reverence and respect for God’s name, and a wish not to blaspheme God’s name by using it too often.


And in my copy of Rotheram's translation "The Emphasized Bible" there is a footnote to Habakkuk 1:12 which reads:

""All the ancient records emphatically state that ... the original reading was ... "Thou diest not" ... Rashi (1040-1105) makes this the basis of his explanation" - G. Intro. p. 358 [The Sopherim changed it to: "We shall not die."]"

The tampering or changing of the sacred text of the scriptures by the Jewish Sopherim or scribes was apparently done with a good motive. It was an attempt to remove anything in the Bible that seemed to be disrespectful or unseemly respecting God. Nevertheless, what these scribes did was completely wrong.

Hiroshi
01-01-2011, 10:08 AM
This link:

http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app32.html

says:

The 134 Passages Where The Sopherim Altered "Jehovah" to "Adonai".
This Is Appendix 32 From The Companion Bible. Out of extreme (but mistaken) reverence for the Ineffable Name "Jehovah", the ancient custodians of the Sacred Text substituted in many places "Adonai" (see Appendix 4. viii. 2 (http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app4.html)). These, in the Authorized Version and Revised Version, are all printed "Lord". In all these places we have printed it "LORD", marking the word with an asterisk in addition to the note in the margin, to inform the reader of the fact.
The official list given in the Massorah (§§ 107-15, Ginsburg's edition) contains the 134.
Genesis 18:3,27,30,32; 19:18; 20:4. Exodus 4:10,13; 5:22; 15:17; 34:9,9. Numbers 14:17. Joshua 7:8. Judges 6:15; 13:8. 1Kings 3:10,15; 22:6. 2Kings 7:6; 19:23. Isaiah 3:17,18; 4:4; 6:1,8,11; 7:14,20; 8:7; 9:8,17; 10:12; 11:11; 21:6,8,16; 28:2; 29:13; 30:20; 37:24; 38:14,16; 49:14. Ezekiel 18:25,29; 21:13; 33:17,29. Amos 5:16; 7:7,8; 9:1. Zechariah 9:4. Micah 1:2. Malachi 1:12,14. Psalm 2:4; 16:2; 22:19,30; 30:8; 35:3,17,22; 37:12; 38:9,15,22; 39:7; 40:17; 44:23; 51:15; 54:4; 55:9; 57:9; 59:11; 62:12; 66:18; 68:11,17,19,22,26,32; 73:20; 77:2,7; 78:65; 79:12; 86:3,4,5,8,9,12,15; 89:49,50; 90:1,17; 110:5; 130:2,3,6. Daniel 1:2; 9:3,4,7,9,15,16,17,19,19,19. Lamentations 1:14,15,15; 2:1,2,5,7,18,19,20; 3:31,36,37,58. Ezra 10:3. Nehemiah 1:11; 4:14. Job 28:28.
To these may be added the following, where "Elohim" was treated in the same way :-
2Samuel 5:19-25; 6:9-17} Where the Authorized Version has "LORD."
1Chronicles 13:12; 14:10,11,14,16; 16:1. Psalm 14:1,2,5; 53:1,2,4,5.} Where in Authorized Version and Revised Version it still appears as "God". It is printed "GOD" in the Companion Bible.

3rddec
03-08-2011, 08:06 PM
I ask this question everywhere but no answer ; was there an uncorrupted Torah or Ingil around during Mohammeds time. If there was where was it ? , and if it didn't exist why would Mohammed tell his followers to repect something that didnt exist.

3rddec
03-08-2011, 08:17 PM
Even within you own Quran i read somewhere that different reciters had differences when it came to certain Surah and Mohammed accepted this. When I looked it up the History of how the Bible and the Quran went from oral to written form were fairly similar except that all the original scrolls weren,t burned so we can always check back. I believe that there is even a possability that a lot of Verses were lost in Battle when reciters were killed and that there is a rumour of a goat eating some Scrolls.

But if God wants to preserve his word I'm certain he could so if God allowed his word to be corrupted why would he send it?

So I have no reason to believe that the Torah or Bible or Koran has been Corrupted so that its message is no longer God revealed even if its expressed in different words or phrases if the Doctrines are maintained intact.

Love and respect

3rddec
03-08-2011, 08:20 PM
to Hiroshi it would be interesting to put the word Jehovah back in these places to see what effect that has on the verses or interpretations if any.

3rddec
03-09-2011, 08:06 PM
we have a saying " You cant have your cake and eat it " but its amazing that Muslim scholars do just that in their logic about the Torah and the Bible. If it agrees with the Quran its true if it doesn't its corrupted and the only arbiter in this is themselves. Talk about the ultimate in a rigged game. I keep asking the same question if there was an uncorrupted version of the gospels or Torah around in Muhammeds lifetime where was it and if there were none why would he even suggest respecting them at all.

جوري
03-09-2011, 08:43 PM
we have a saying " You cant have your cake and eat it " but its amazing that Muslim scholars do just that in their logic about the Torah and the Bible. If it agrees with the Quran its true if it doesn't its corrupted and the only arbiter in this is themselves. Talk about the ultimate in a rigged game. I keep asking the same question if there was an uncorrupted version of the gospels or Torah around in Muhammeds lifetime where was it and if there were none why would he even suggest respecting them at all.


That is what the Quran is 'the criterion' what is on concert with Islamic teachings is accurate, what isn't is an addendum/subtractions/embellishment or complete fabrication .. either way the previous scriptures are entirely irrelevant or as of much relevance as the OT and its laws to a christian... God isn't the god of a few Israelite and god isn't a self immolating man sent to the lost Israelite (Matthew 15:22) God is God to all (Islam) end of story!

all the best

marwen
03-09-2011, 08:50 PM
we have a saying " You cant have your cake and eat it " but its amazing that Muslim scholars do just that in their logic about the Torah and the Bible. If it agrees with the Quran its true if it doesn't its corrupted and the only arbiter in this is themselves. Talk about the ultimate in a rigged game. I keep asking the same question if there was an uncorrupted version of the gospels or Torah around in Muhammeds lifetime where was it and if there were none why would he even suggest respecting them at all.

Muslims believe the quran is totally true, and, they don't need to find proofs for that.
Muslims believe the original versions of Torah/Bible were truthful, but then these versions were corrupted by people. Obviously some parts of Torah are corrupted and some other parts kept some of their original form/meaning. So logically from a muslim perspective who belive quran is true, has the following deduction : (1) the parts in torah that conform to quran are true, (2) the parts contradicting quran are false, (3) the parts that are not mentioned in the quran (neither contradicting nor conforming to quran) are to be left without interpretation (we don't deny them and we can't confirm them).

Now, because Christians and Jews don't belive the quran is a holy book, how can muslims prove to them that some parts in the bible/torah are wrong ?
There is 2 arguments that both muslims and people of the book agree upon :
1) Using logic/scientific/moral inconsistence of the verses in question.
2) Use the parts of the bible/torah that muslims belive are true (and of course christians/jews believe are true) and show them that other verses in the torah/bible are in contradiction with those verses.

hope this clarifies something.

3rddec
03-09-2011, 10:48 PM
I,m still waiting for the answer to when exactly the Torah got changed and the Bible ; was there still an uncorrupted version around at the time of Mohammed or not and if there was where was it. If there wasnt then why would Muhammed say

Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Scriptures [i.e. you believe in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel), while they disbelieve in your Book, the Qur'ân].

Muhammed doesn't say part of any of the books, he clearly states that these muslims believe in the Torah and the Injeel, why if they are corrupted ?

It begins to look like you are refusing to believe Gods word and even commiting the greatest sin as Christ calls it by Blaspheming against the Holy Spirit by refusing to believe it if it contradics your view of the Quran and then trying to absolve yourself with an unproven myth about changing Gods words.

At what point did the Injeel get corrupted ; and by who ; some proof would be nice. And I mean a change that caused some change in doctrine as opposed to saying the same thing with a slightly different phrase.

Surely with all the available jewish and christian historic scrolls and books that werent burned can be used to find these changes; a much easier job than for scholars to check on the sources for the quran as they either died in battle or the scrolls were burned once the Caliph settled on the version he was happy with.

Im sorry if i seem a little frustrated but I keep asking the question with no one providing me with an answer so I can reseach it?
especially as it seems to be such a primary belief for Muslims asking for somr Proof does not seem unreasonable.

LOVE and RESPECT

جوري
03-09-2011, 10:59 PM
I,m still waiting for the answer to when exactly the Torah got changed and the Bible ; was there still an uncorrupted version around at the time of Mohammed or not and if there was where was it.



knock yourself out:

Textual Integrity Of The Bible
Is the Bible that we have in our hands today unchanged? Or has it undergone extensive revisions and alterations? Truth is the first victim in the Christian apologetical literature. This is because if they tell the truth about the Church history and its role in formulating the Bible (or Bibles) as well as the manuscript tradition of the New Testament, belief in the Bible as the "Word" of God would take the beating and the Churches would go absolutely empty. Hence it is not be surprising to find an average Christian's knowledge about his own scriptures is pretty close to zero.
This page is to educate the Muslims about the Bible of the Christians, concerning mainly with its compilation and textual reliability. It is often seen that Christian missionaries dupe less-knowledgeable Muslims about the Bible by saying that the Qur'an confirms the Bible and hence Muslims should believe in the Bible. Muslims should remember that the Qur'an attests Torah, Zabur and Injil as revelations from God given to the Prophet. It does not attest whatever writers of the Old Testament or St. Paul in the New Testament wrote or said.
But what is the textual reliability of the so-called Torah, Zabur and Injil present in the modern Bibles? The aim of this page is to venture into this issue. If one can't establish the 'revealed' books' textual reliability, is there any point calling it as the Word of God?
Lastly, we have made sure that we use the references of Judeo-Christian scholars of repute not the apologetical literature for very obvious reasons.
The Canon Of The Bible
https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2007/06/redarrow-1.gif A detailed discussion about the various canons of the Bible drawn at various times by different Churches can be seen here (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/).
The New Testament Manuscripts
https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2007/06/redarrow-1.gif Click here for New Testament Manuscripts (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/)
Was The Bible Same As We have In Our Hands Today?

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2007/06/redarrow-1.gif Church Tradition and The Textual Integrity Of The Bible (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html)


Church Tradition and The Bible (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Bible)

Protestant Church (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Protestant)
Roman Catholic Church (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Roman)
Anglican Church (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Anglican)
Greek Orthodox Church (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Greek)
Coptic Church (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Coptic)
Ethiopic Church (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Ethiopic)
Syriac Church (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Syriac)


Church Tradition and Apostolic Fathers (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Fathers)

Clement Of Rome (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Clement)
Ignatius Of Antioch (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Ignatius)
The Didache (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Didache)
Papias Of Heirapolis (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Papias)
Barnabas (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Barnabas)
Polycarp Of Smyrna (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Polycarp)
Hermas Of Rome (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Hermas)
The So-Called Second Epistle Of Clement (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#SEClement)


Church Tradition and The Early Lists Of The Books Of The New Testament (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#BooksNT)
Church Tradition and 'Inspiration' Of New Testament Books (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Inspiration)

The Didache (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#The_Didache)
Epistle Of Clement (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Epistle_Clement)
Epistle Of Barnabas (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Epistle_Barnabas)
Shepherd Of Hermas (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Shepherd_Hermas)


Church Tradition and Manuscripts (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Manuscripts)
Church Tradition and The Six 'Disputed' Books (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Disputed_Books)

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2007/06/redarrow-1.gif Extracts (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/howwegot.html) From The Book How We Got Our Bible
The Bible and Its 'Inspiration'

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2007/06/redarrow-1.gif Was Paul Inspired? (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/paul.html)
https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2007/06/redarrow-1.gif Church Tradition and 'Inspiration' Of New Testament Books (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Inspiration)


The Didache (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#The_Didache)
Epistle Of Clement (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Epistle_Clement)
Epistle Of Barnabas (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Epistle_Barnabas)
Shepherd Of Hermas (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Shepherd_Hermas)

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2007/06/redarrow-1.gif 'Accuracy' Of The New Testament (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Bibaccuracy.html#2)
Textual Reliability Of The Bible - Who Is Afraid Of Textual Criticism?

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2007/06/redarrow-1.gif Criteria Used In Choosing Among Conflicting Readings In New Testament Witnesses (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/criteria.html)


Introduction (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/criteria.html#intro)
The Criteria (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/criteria.html#crit)
Outline Of Criteria (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/criteria.html#out)

External Evidence (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/criteria.html#extern)
Internal Evidence (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/criteria.html#intern)


Some Examples (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/criteria.html#examp)

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2007/06/redarrow-1.gif Textual Reliability / Accuracy Of The New Testament (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Bibaccuracy.html)
https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2007/06/redarrow-1.gif Sir David Dalrymple (Lord Hailes), The Patristic Citations Of The Ante-Nicene Church Fathers And The Search For Eleven Missing Verses Of The New Testament (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/citations.html)
Based on a narrative whose source is alleged to have been the renowned Scottish Judge Sir David Dalrymple (Lord Hailes), it is frequently asserted that the entire New Testament can be reconstructed from the citations of the Church Fathers of the first three centuries, with the exception of only eleven verses. Going back to the original documents, something which none of the authors have attempted to study, it is shown that the data in them clearly disproves this claim – repeated in numerous missionary and apologetical publications for a period of more than 165 years.


Introduction (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/citations.html#1)
Historical And Theological Antecedents (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/citations.html#2)
An Anecdote (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/citations.html#3)

A Brief Chronology (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/citations.html#3a)
Oral Source And Printed Transmission (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/citations.html#3b)


Dalrymple's Invitation: Some Preliminary Observations (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/citations.html#4)

MSS. 25396-399 ‘Interleaved Collation’ (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/citations.html#4a)
MSS. 25400-408 ‘Supplemental Collation’ (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/citations.html#4b)
MSS. 25409-410 ‘Loose Leaf Collation’ (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/citations.html#4c)
Results (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/citations.html#4d)
Some Remarks (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/citations.html#4e)
Lost In Transmission? (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/citations.html#4f)


Conclusions (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/citations.html#5)

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2007/06/redarrow-1.gif Modern Approaches To New Testament Textual Criticism (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/modappr.html)


Radical Eclecticism (G. D. Kilpatrick, J. K. Elliott) (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/modappr.html#a)
Reasoned Eclecticism (B. M. Metzger, K. Aland) (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/modappr.html#b)
Reasoned Conservatism (H. A. Sturz) (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/modappr.html#c)
Radical Conservatism (Z. Hodges, A. Farstad) (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/modappr.html#d)

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2007/06/redarrow-1.gif Critical Text Of The New Testament: Methodology and Implications (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/criticaltext.html)


Introduction (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/criticaltext.html#Intro)
Formation Of A Critical Text: Methodology and Implications (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/criticaltext.html#Critical)
Conclusion (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/criticaltext.html#Conclusion)
Appendix: Other Articles Of Interest (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/criticaltext.html#Appendix)

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2007/06/redarrow-1.gif The Multivalence Of The Term "Original Text" In New Testament Textual Criticism (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/original.html), E. Jay Epp, Harvard Theological Review, 1999, Volume 92, No. 3. pp. 245-281.


Introduction (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/original.html#1)
The Use of the Term "Original Text" Past and Present and Its Multivalence (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/original.html#2)
The Relation of an Elusive, Multivalent "Original Text" to the Concept of "Canon" (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/original.html#3)
Conclusion (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/original.html#4)

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2007/06/redarrow-1.gif Who Is Afraid Of Textual Criticism? (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/textcriticism.html)


Variant Readings In The Qur'an and In The Bible (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/textcriticism.html#variant)

The Qur'an, Its Variant Readings and Islamic Scholarship (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/textcriticism.html#1)
The New Testament, Its Problems and The Critical Texts (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/textcriticism.html#2)


Textual Criticism and The Reaction Of The Church (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/textcriticism.html#3)

J Mill (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/textcriticism.html#Mill)
R Bentley (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/textcriticism.html#Bentley)
J J Wettstein (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/textcriticism.html#Wettstein)
B F Westcott and J A Hort (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/textcriticism.html#WH)





you might also enjoy


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Trt1ZWR5PqQ

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo

one of ten so instead of sticking hours long worth of what is wrong with the bible, after each is done click on the next..

all the best

Aprender
03-09-2011, 11:22 PM
I,m still waiting for the answer to when exactly the Torah got changed and the Bible ; was there still an uncorrupted version around at the time of Mohammed or not and if there was where was it. If there wasnt then why would Muhammed say

Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Scriptures .

Muhammed doesn't say part of any of the books, he clearly states that these muslims believe in the Torah and the Injeel, why if they are corrupted ?

It begins to look like you are refusing to believe Gods word and even commiting the greatest sin as Christ calls it by Blaspheming against the Holy Spirit by refusing to believe it if it contradics your view of the Quran and then trying to absolve yourself with an unproven myth about changing Gods words.

At what point did the Injeel get corrupted ; and by who ; some proof would be nice. And I mean a change that caused some change in doctrine as opposed to saying the same thing with a slightly different phrase.

Surely with all the available jewish and christian historic scrolls and books that werent burned can be used to find these changes; a much easier job than for scholars to check on the sources for the quran as they either died in battle or the scrolls were burned once the Caliph settled on the version he was happy with.

Im sorry if i seem a little frustrated but I keep asking the question with no one providing me with an answer so I can reseach it?
especially as it seems to be such a primary belief for Muslims asking for somr Proof does not seem unreasonable.

LOVE and RESPECT


Brother, I thought this article was interesting here. You can check it out for yourself.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/07/06/ancient.bible.online/


Discovered in a monastery in the Sinai desert in Egypt more than 160 years ago, the handwritten Codex Sinaiticus includes[I] two books that are not part of the official New Testament and at least seven books that are not in the Old Testament.


The New Testament books are in a different order, and include numerous handwritten corrections -- some made as much as 800 years after the texts were written, according to scholars who worked on the project of putting the Bible online. The changes range from the alteration of a single letter to the insertion of whole sentences.

Rabi Mansur
03-10-2011, 01:56 AM
:sl:

The short answer to all of this discussion is: The Torah and Injeel do NOT = the Old Testament and New Testament scriptures.

In my view, the Injeel is the message or good news proclaimed by Jesus (PBUH). It is not the New Testament writings that the church put together to form their canon of scripture. If the Injeel was written down, it was likely something akin to the Q sayings gospel or similar in form to the gospel of Thomas which was discovered in Egypt. It is very possible that Muslims at the time of Muhammad (PBUH) were aware of or familiar with a sayings gospel that would be considered the Injeel. At the very least they knew of the essential message proclaimed by Jesus (PBUH).


Peace.

Hiroshi
03-12-2011, 08:53 PM
to Hiroshi it would be interesting to put the word Jehovah back in these places to see what effect that has on the verses or interpretations if any.



The Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation does put the word Jehovah back in those places. I am not aware of any problems in interpretation that are caused by this.

جوري
03-12-2011, 09:03 PM
:sl:

The short answer to all of this discussion is: The Torah and Injeel do NOT = the Old Testament and New Testament scriptures.

In my view, the Injeel is the message or good news proclaimed by Jesus (PBUH). It is not the New Testament writings that the church put together to form their canon of scripture. If the Injeel was written down, it was likely something akin to the Q sayings gospel or similar in form to the gospel of Thomas which was discovered in Egypt. It is very possible that Muslims at the time of Muhammad (PBUH) were aware of or familiar with a sayings gospel that would be considered the Injeel. At the very least they knew of the essential message proclaimed by Jesus (PBUH).


Peace.

after five centuries of evangelizing, there were a meager two tribes of christians in Arabia.. people preferred Judaism or Paganism.. also evinced by the neighboring countries where Christianity was somewhat popular for instance Egypt/Syria/ etc embracing almost in totality Islam as it was spread through the region. Christianity just wasn't convincing then and it isn't now-- there was no printing press Johannes Gutenberg great invention didn't come to be until 1500 something so the lay person went on by word of mouth, they didn't visit the local library for compare and contrast.. .. Unless a super-power imposed it as state religion which would have had to come from Rome to force Christianity down people's throats , and no such thing occurred, in fact the former capital of Christendom Constantinople became Muslim, people didn't care or rather didn't view the teaching of Jesus (p) as the perverse abomination we have today..

and Allah swt knows best

:w:

Hiroshi
03-12-2011, 09:06 PM
:sl:

The short answer to all of this discussion is: The Torah and Injeel do NOT = the Old Testament and New Testament scriptures.

In my view, the Injeel is the message or good news proclaimed by Jesus (PBUH). It is not the New Testament writings that the church put together to form their canon of scripture. If the Injeel was written down, it was likely something akin to the Q sayings gospel or similar in form to the gospel of Thomas which was discovered in Egypt. It is very possible that Muslims at the time of Muhammad (PBUH) were aware of or familiar with a sayings gospel that would be considered the Injeel. At the very least they knew of the essential message proclaimed by Jesus (PBUH).


Peace.

No Q gospel has ever been found or ever will be found. Even to think that it existed is speculation. But Surah 7:157 says that the Torah and Injeel existed "with them" (that is, with the Jews and Christians that lived in Mohammad's time). And the scriptures that they had then are the same scriptures that we have today.

But somehow Muslims explain this all away.

3rddec
03-12-2011, 09:22 PM
Apreder thank you for that link I will be watching closely the discussions it will raise.

Dr. Mohsin : Indeed in their stories, there is a lesson for men of understanding. It (the Quran) is not a forged statement but a confirmation of Allâhs existing Books which were before it [the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel) and other Scriptures of Allâh] and a detailed explanation of everything and a guide and a Mercy for the people who believe.

it would appear to have been written down but as yet no evidence of anything other than the Christian Gospels and some books not included in the Bible but nothing you Muslims will accept as the original version.

Intresting that the Baha'i accuse the Muslims of loosing their message too; it seems that every new prophet say's the last ones followers have gone away from the original message.
I've dropped a post in their forum to see if they can show how. Its scary cos according to them they believe their Prophet is the returning mesiah and his message is we are all wrong.
Course I am a bit skeptical of someone who changes their name to fit a prophesy but im sure it will provide lines of enquiry that a Christian or Muslim would never consider.

جوري
03-12-2011, 10:02 PM
Dr. Mohsin : Indeed in their stories, there is a lesson for men of understanding. It (the Quran) is not a forged statement but a confirmation of Allâhs existing Books which were before it [the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel) and other Scriptures of Allâh] and a detailed explanation of everything and a guide and a Mercy for the people who believe.

Dr. Mohsin Khan is a translator of the Quran so I am not sure what you stand to gain by highlighting his name in bold. btw I am Dr. M and before me Dr. Mc. has also written a statement if you're big on titles! --indeed in the stories of the people of old are lessons to men of understanding.. you're yet to establish for us how that denotes that the bibles are accurate?


it would appear to have been written down but as yet no evidence of anything other than the Christian Gospels and some books not included in the Bible but nothing you Muslims will accept as the original version.
Do you even know the language your alleged God spoke? there is no consensus amongst your so-called scholars.. some say latin for it is the language of the people of paradise, some say, Hebrew, others say Aramaic, some say Greek. You don't have a consensus on language yet all of a sudden have evidence for the books this alleged god spoke?


Intresting that the Baha'i accuse the Muslims of loosing their message too; it seems that every new prophet say's the last ones followers have gone away from the original message.
I've dropped a post in their forum to see if they can show how. Its scary cos according to them they believe their Prophet is the returning mesiah and his message is we are all wrong.
Course I am a bit skeptical of someone who changes their name to fit a prophesy but im sure it will provide lines of enquiry that a Christian or Muslim would never consider.

Bahai's aren't any more a religion than mormons are.. you can't take the same book, twist it around and call yourself a messenger.. anyone of basic understanding can tell the difference between a doctor and a fraud, except for the truly poor and ignorant and the same goes for any art or science. Anyhow if I were you I'd not worry so much about bahai's they makeup less than 1% of the population, when you yourself are so far astray praying to a self-immolating mangod who abrogated his commandments through a charlatan and couldn't even pick apostles who would shoulder the responsibility after his death..

all the best

Hiroshi
03-13-2011, 01:18 PM
Dr. Mohsin Khan is a translator of the Quran so I am not sure what you stand to gain by highlighting his name in bold. btw I am Dr. M and before me Dr. Mc. has also written a statement if you're big on titles! --indeed in the stories of the people of old are lessons to men of understanding.. you're yet to establish for us how that denotes that the bibles are accurate?



I am pleased that you have a title Dr. M. I myself have no such academic distinction.

In Surah 10:94 Muhammad is directed to question those familiar with the Bible if he has any doubts about the truthfulness of what was recorded in the Qur'an. This establishes that we are to measure the authenticity of the Qur'an against the Bible, not the other way around. Why then do Muslims insist rather on measuring the authenticity of the Bible against the Qur'an?

جوري
03-13-2011, 02:04 PM
I am pleased that you have a title Dr. M. I myself have no such academic distinction.

In Surah 10:94 Muhammad is directed to question those familiar with the Bible if he has any doubts about the truthfulness of what was recorded in the Qur'an. This establishes that we are to measure the authenticity of the Qur'an against the Bible, not the other way around. Why then do Muslims insist rather on measuring the authenticity of the Bible against the Qur'an?

The verse has nothing to do with the authenticity of the bible whatsoever. It has everything to do with confirming that the stories of old which were revealed did in act happen .
Reading the verse that directly precedes it:
[Pickthal 10:93] And We verily did allot unto the Children of Israel a fixed abode, and did provide them with good things; and they differed not until the knowledge came unto them. Lo! thy Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they used to differ.

we can see that it is addressing the children of Israel, the confirmation would be to superimpose what is revealed to that which has happened to them--also given that Arabia had two meager tribes of Christians with books not readily available to anyone, one can safely assume the same historically not just Quranically, that it is talking of the Jews and their oral tradition.

I am not sure why you guys are so keen on misquoting the, adding, subtracting and interpreting at whim? surely you must do it only to please yourselves? since it isn't convincing an argument to any Muslim and quite frankly borders on pathetic!

and yes that is indeed the perk of having a higher degree, ones ability to think for themselves in lieu of listening to hours of useless sermons and not being able to parley that to people you desperately need to convince of it!

all the best

Hiroshi
03-15-2011, 08:34 AM
The verse has nothing to do with the authenticity of the bible whatsoever. It has everything to do with confirming that the stories of old which were revealed did in act happen .
Reading the verse that directly precedes it:
[Pickthal 10:93] And We verily did allot unto the Children of Israel a fixed abode, and did provide them with good things; and they differed not until the knowledge came unto them. Lo! thy Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they used to differ.

we can see that it is addressing the children of Israel, the confirmation would be to superimpose what is revealed to that which has happened to them--also given that Arabia had two meager tribes of Christians with books not readily available to anyone, one can safely assume the same historically not just Quranically, that it is talking of the Jews and their oral tradition.

I am not sure why you guys are so keen on misquoting the, adding, subtracting and interpreting at whim? surely you must do it only to please yourselves? since it isn't convincing an argument to any Muslim and quite frankly borders on pathetic!

and yes that is indeed the perk of having a higher degree, ones ability to think for themselves in lieu of listening to hours of useless sermons and not being able to parley that to people you desperately need to convince of it!

all the best

Peace, The Vale's Lily.

It seems that our recent posts have been deleted because they were off topic. I sincerely wanted to study your last reply but it has now disappeared. Do you want to repeat the post on a new thread or sent it to me as a PM?

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-17-2011, 07:27 AM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-11-2011, 12:47 AM
  3. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 10-05-2007, 04:39 PM
  4. Replies: 116
    Last Post: 09-13-2006, 06:32 PM
  5. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-24-2006, 11:56 AM