We are sorry

[Umm Safiya]

In the middle of all the mayhem surrounding the Danish cartoons controversy, a group of Arab and Muslim youth have set up this website to express their honest opinion, as a small attempt to show the world that the images shown of Arab and Muslim anger around the world are not representative of the opinions of all Arabs. We whole-heartedly apologize to the people of Denmark, Norway and all the European Union over the actions of a few, and we completely condemn all forms of vandalism and incitement to violence that the Arab and Muslim world have witnessed. We hope that this sad episode will not tarnish the great friendship that our peoples have fostered over decades.

The problem with media representation of such issues tends to be that the media only picks up the loudest voices, ignoring the rational ones that do not generate as much noise. Voices that seek tolerance, dialogue and understanding are always drowned out by the more sensationalist loud calls, giving viewers the impression that these views are representative of all the Arab public’s view. This website is a modest attempt at redressing this wrong. We would appreciate it if you could forward the word to as many of your friends as possible.

We will note that we find the cartoons to be incendiary, insulting and very abrasive. We also take issue with the general stance of the Danish Newspaper Jyllands-Posten, which has a reputation for publishing inflammatory material. Yet, it would be wrong to take away their freedom of expression, regardless of how horrid their material is. We affirm our belief in freedom of expression and people’s right to express whatever opinions they hold. However, at the same time there is a need to realize that freedom of expression is a responsibility that should not be used to gratuitously insult people’s beliefs.

When confronted with such a situation, we deplore the use of violence in all its forms, as well as threats of violence and derogatory and racist remarks being thrown in the opposite direction. We condemn the shameful actions carried out by a few Arabs and Muslims around the world that have tarnished our image, and presented us as intolerant and close-minded bigots.

Anyone offended by the content of a publication has a vast choice of democratic and respectful methods of seeking redress. The most obvious are not buying the publication, writing letters to the editor or expressing their opinions in other venues. It is also possible to use one’s free choice in a democracy to conduct a boycott of the publication, and even a boycott of firms dealing with it. Yet an indiscriminate boycott of all the country’s firms is simply uncalled for and counter-productive. We would be allowing the extremists on both sides to prevail, while punishing the government and the whole population for the actions of an unrepresentative irresponsible few.

We apologize whole-heartedly to the people of Norway and Denmark for any offense this sorry episode may have caused, to any European who has been harassed or intimidated, to the staff of the Danish, Norwegian and Swedish Embassies in Syria whose workplace has been destroyed and for any distress this whole affair may have caused to anyone.

There is a strong tradition of friendship and cooperation between the Norwegian and Danish people and Arab people. Of most note is the continued support that these governments give to the Palestinian people in their struggle for freedom and liberation, and the brave stance that these governments have often taken to defend Palestinian rights. We sincerely hope these special bonds will not be broken. We hope that our Scandinavian friends would not be convinced by the actions of a few to believe that this is how Arabs and Muslims feel about them. There are racists, bigots and criminals in all countries, and it is the duty of the respectful and reasonable to reach out to each other.

Let us hope that instead of emboldening the bigots, this sorry affair will bring all open-minded, tolerant and reasonable people from the Arab, Muslim, Norwegian, Danish and European communities together to unite in a continued struggle of reason against prejudice, open-mindedness against bigotry and humanity against racism.

Vi Beklager

Undskyld

We Are Sorry

http://www.sorrynorwaydenmark.com/

[mizan_aliashraf]

Salam
What i want to know is why are muslims apologising to the danish when the danish have not apologised to us?
Wassalam

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
mashallah that is what i was thinking too
wasalam

[Malaikah]

:sl:

why should we wait for them to apologise first? shouldnt we be better than them?

just because they are too proud and blinded to apologise that doesnt mean that we should be too

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[Ghazi]

Salaam

The majority of muslims don't owe an apology it's the small percentage, plus after remarks from the queen I'm supporting the boycott till we get a full apology from the comic makers and the queen.

[sumay28]

I don't exactly agree with the apology. The cartoons were completely crossing the line and I agree with the protests. However, I believe that the protest could have been a little less violent with the threats and burning of stuff. I understand the violence was likely in the minority, however, we're a peaceful people and I think EVERYONE should have conducted themselves in a more peaceful manner. Threatening a massacre or a 9/11 part 2 was not the right thing to do. They're putting themselves and the rest of the Muslims in danger. They're threatening our freedom to practice our religion freely.

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
muslims have been pushed all the time, everytime the kuffars killed a muslim or did something agaisnt us did they say sorry? did america say sorry for killing innocent people in muslims countries? did blair say sorry for trying to introduce a 90 day detention for terrorist suspects? did any kuffar say sorry for the harm and torment they have given to us muslims?
wasalam

[Umu 'Isa]

I don't exactly agree with the apology. The cartoons were completely crossing the line and I agree with the protests. However, I believe that the protest could have been a little less violent with the threats and burning of stuff. I understand the violence was likely in the minority, however, we're a peaceful people and I think EVERYONE should have conducted themselves in a more peaceful manner. Threatening a massacre or a 9/11 part 2 was not the right thing to do. They're putting themselves and the rest of the Muslims in danger. They're threatening our freedom to practice our religion freely.

i second that

[mizan_aliashraf]

salam
muslims have been pushed all the time, everytime the kuffars killed a muslim or did something agaisnt us did they say sorry? did america say sorry for killing innocent people in muslims countries? did blair say sorry for trying to introduce a 90 day detention for terrorist suspects? did any kuffar say sorry for the harm and torment they have given to us muslims?
wasalam

Salam
Yay Yay, i thought i was heating up - go on bro, he's firing on all cylinders!
We owe the danish nothing! Did the queen make remarks about us? These dirty filthy kuffars will never be happy with us untill we accept their way of life - meaning alcohol, drugs, prostitution and all the other filth the west has given to this world. That is what people like the MCB have to realise. They are sucking up to the government too much. The end will always be humiliation for such people
Wassalam

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
did anyone sympthasise us when countries tried to ban islamic clothing? did anyone showed any regret when SAS was refused entry to US or Canada? do police do anythin if a muslim bro gets attacked in the streets? does anyone do anything when muslims worldwide are suffering at the hands of kuffars?
we muslims have been pushed too far, beyond and over the limit
wasalam

[mizan_aliashraf]

Salam
The time has come, stop being 'moderates' like the MCB encourage, stop 'community cohesion' that IFE promote. We have taken this far too much. These kuffar need to realise who they are taunting. I am not inciting murder or racial hatred, but we need to make a stand and let them know who we are.
Wassalam

[Ghazi]

salam
muslims have been pushed all the time, everytime the kuffars killed a muslim or did something agaisnt us did they say sorry? did america say sorry for killing innocent people in muslims countries? did blair say sorry for trying to introduce a 90 day detention for terrorist suspects? did any kuffar say sorry for the harm and torment they have given to us muslims?
wasalam

Salaam

This is happens cause we let it, were to comfterable in this dunya, we need to do something.

[Umm Safiya]

:sl:

Who is MCB?

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
why is there such thing as stand up speak up? to kick out racism
so why can't we be allowed to defend our religion?
the core of this whole thing needs to review all this, and denmark must admit they were wrong and they should apologise
MCB: Muslim Council of Britain
is there any prrof that muslims were responsible for 9/11 and 7/7? we know US are responsible for attack on iraq, yet no one defends Iraq because it is a muslim country
wasalam

[aakhirah]

http://www.sorrynorwaydenmark.com

:sl:

So, should I add these lot to my ever-growing list of apologetic Muslims...?

:w:

A.

[mizan_aliashraf]

Salam
If you want. We seem to have people apologising for everything these days, whether our fault or not.
Wassalam

[HeiGou]

salam
did anyone sympthasise us when countries tried to ban islamic clothing?

Well yes. America criticised the French ruling. Although the only countries in the world to ban Islamic clothing are Muslim ones (Turkey for instance). France just banned it in schools. The wife of the British Prime Minister is arguing in the House of Lords this week that Shabina Begun has the right to wear the jilbalb - even there the school accepted she had the right to wear Islamic clothing, just not the full jilbalb.

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4679058.stm

did anyone showed any regret when SAS was refused entry to US or Canada?

I do not know who SAS is, but if the Canadians do not want him he must have done something bad. They let everyone in. Clearly it is not right to be upset by this. Canada belongs to the Canadians. If I do not want someone in my house, it is my right to refuse entry. SAS, nor anyone else, does not have a right to enter my home just because they want to.

do police do anythin if a muslim bro gets attacked in the streets?

Yes of course they do. Find me a case in the UK or the US where a Muslim has been attacked on the streets and the police have refused to do anything.

does anyone do anything when muslims worldwide are suffering at the hands of kuffars?

Millions of Europeans took to the streets to protest the war in Iraq. Their payment was suicide bombs in London and Spain. For that matter Paris has been hit dozens of times and the French still supported the anti-War side. European pressure brought Israel to the negotiating table at Oslo and Madrid. I guess you can forget about that now. What thanks do Europeans get apart from bombs, riots and now threats?

we muslims have been pushed too far, beyond and over the limit
wasalam

Increasingly Europeans are saying the same thing. I think this is a bad idea. But think carefully about the implications of what you say. Think where this is likely to go.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Ok I'll put it nice and simple: you physically attack me in the streets, I will knock you out. That's a warning to any fool who wants a piece of me.

I'm not looking for trouble nor are many muslims over the world. But push any of us too far, the least you can expect is an A grade butt-whooping.

If they aren't going to apologise, fine, they are in the bad light. Not us.

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
i have seen it many times myself when a muslim gets attacked and tells the police, the police say they will do something but up untill today they haven't contacted
wasalam

[sotahoro]

Salam
What i want to know is why are muslims apologising to the danish when the danish have not apologised to us?
Wassalam

The newspaper that first published the cartoons in their article has apoligised about it. What else can you want?

[Takumi]

Wouldn't all these burning and violent emphasize the notion that Islam DOES allow violence in ANY circumstance?

The prophet bled and had to be shielded by his adopted son when he wanted the people of Taif to help him, and the angels [mind you, the angels] came down to offer to obliterate the town. What did he do?

If whatever has been happening around us is anything to go by, I'd assume, he'd just give the order to destroy.

What did he do? Do some reading and you'll surely find out.

Defacing, dissing and humiliating the prophet is not new. Al Quran documented the harsh words that he had received. While being called a poet and a magician probably not serious to us, but for people whose pride evolved around honor, trust and eloquence, such names were a disgrace to our beloved prophet. Still, did he decree a fatwa on destroying the house of these people?

In fact, when Fathul Makkah happened, he had all the liberty to cut off the heads of his opressors but instead, he made a public announcement to forgive them and honor Abu Sufyan, by making Abu Sufyan's house as a place of sanctuary.

The nubuwwah [prophethood] of Muhammad is to save people from hellfire and and as a blessing to this ummah. Not a curse or a burden.

I'm totally surprised, I have yet to hear or read about any fatwa from our scholars saying that , yeah, that's what we're going to do, burn the embassies, in fact, the prominent Qardawi had called to denounce this violent reciprocation.

If someone has any link, please provide them, I'd love to read about what the scholars have to say.

[north_malaysian]

The newspaper that first published the cartoons in their article has apoligised about it. What else can you want?

A law that will ensure this will never happen again!

[sotahoro]

Salam
Did the queen make remarks about us?

Read the news and they you know what she said, man.

These dirty filthy kuffars will never be happy with us untill we accept their way of life - meaning alcohol, drugs, prostitution and all the other filth the west has given to this world.

I think I as a dirty filty kuffar will be quite happy to accept your strange ways when you start behaving like reasonable people and stop the bigots from preventing our cultures to live side by side in co-operation.

By the way, did you know has much heroin Afghanistan, a muslim country, has produced? 87% of all heroin has been said to be produced there.

[Umu 'Isa]

By the way, did you know has much heroin Afghanistan, a muslim country, has produced? 87% of all heroin has been said to be produced there.

what has that got to do with anything? If your looking to belittle us ive said it once and i'll say it again, judge a religion not by its people but by its scripture which is Qur'an and sunnah!

[north_malaysian]

Read the news and they you know what she said, man.



I think I as a dirty filty kuffar will be quite happy to accept your strange ways when you start behaving like reasonable people and stop the bigots from preventing our cultures to live side by side in co-operation.

By the way, did you know has much heroin Afghanistan, a muslim country, has produced? 87% of all heroin has been said to be produced there.

Afghanistan a Muslim country? Hello!! It's a country colonized by westerners and have puppet leaders installed by the colonizers. That's why they encourage heroin produced in Afghanistan, to make those Afghans forget to strive for a PURE INDEPENDENCE.

[sotahoro]

Salam
The time has come, stop being 'moderates' like the MCB encourage, stop 'community cohesion' that IFE promote. We have taken this far too much. These kuffar need to realise who they are taunting. I am not inciting murder or racial hatred, but we need to make a stand and let them know who we are.
Wassalam

What are you saying then? You are not inciting murder or racial hatred, but does "not being moderate" mean that you will happily look the other way, give your silent approval, if these things happened?
Take a cold shower.

[sotahoro]

we know US are responsible for attack on iraq, yet no one defends Iraq because it is a muslim country
wasalam

Did you approve the reign of Saddam Hussein? He is a mass murderer and not a real muslim, although he likes to act like one. The Americans liberated the people of Iraq from Saddam's evil regime, but nobody gives them any credit for this. I'm not saying that the Americans are knights in shining armor, but surely they did more good for the people of Iraq than Saddam did.

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
what saddam did is strongly dissaproved by all muslims, but all this happened along time ago, so why did US act now? not getting enough oil or riches perhaps?
wasalam

[Takumi]

Read the news and they you know what she said, man.



I think I as a dirty filty kuffar will be quite happy to accept your strange ways when you start behaving like reasonable people and stop the bigots from preventing our cultures to live side by side in co-operation.

By the way, did you know has much heroin Afghanistan, a muslim country, has produced? 87% of all heroin has been said to be produced there.

While I agree with you on preventing zealots and bigots of any kind from disturbing the peace, I must say that your using Afghanistan as somewhat a portrayal of muslims and Islam is uncalled for. Unless that wasn't your intention of making that statement, I apologize in advance for assuming that it was.

Sir,

There are NO ISLAMICcountries in this world. Contrary to popular belief, Saudi Arabia is NOT one of them, nor Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan etc.

There are only countries run by muslims. Now, whether or not these muslims who run these countries are adhering the Quranic code is not the issue here. There are bigots and zealots in every strata of society.

"When I go to countries run by muslims, I see muslims without Islam. When I got countries run by non muslims, I see Islam without muslims" - anonymous.

[kososhahab]

:sl:

My bros and sis out there...
don u think its better to b peaceful than to terrorize pple out there...

why cant we juz show them that Islam is really peaceful? why? why cant we do that? is it so dificult????

i'm not sayin that we cant protest ...insted we hav the rite to protest, but i also think that we shud do it peacefully..

even our rasul s.a.w took the mocking from the disbelievers peacefully. he didnt burn down their house...

so what i propose to muslims out there to b peaceful at the same time justify our rites as a muslim...

Anyway Allah s.w.t is the All-Knower and i think Allah know what to do with the dannish journalist....

And i also think that we shudnt harm the innocents...


:sl:

Yur Bro,
Muhammad

[sotahoro]

:sl:
Ok I'll put it nice and simple: you physically attack me in the streets, I will knock you out. That's a warning to any fool who wants a piece of me.

I'm not looking for trouble nor are many muslims over the world. But push any of us too far, the least you can expect is an A grade butt-whooping.

LOL! It's like kids in the school yard :happy:

[Umu 'Isa]

Did you approve the reign of Saddam Hussein? He is a mass murderer and not a real muslim, although he likes to act like one. The Americans liberated the people of Iraq from Saddam's evil regime, but nobody gives them any credit for this. I'm not saying that the Americans are knights in shining armor, but surely they did more good for the people of Iraq than Saddam did.

okay americans captured saddam hussain a longggg time ago.. so what reason do they have to be there to this day???

[north_malaysian]

While I agree with you on preventing zealots and bigots of any kind from disturbing the peace, I must say that your using Afghanistan as somewhat a portrayal of muslims and Islam is uncalled for. Unless that wasn't your intention of making that statement, I apologize in advance for assuming that it was.

Sir,

There are NO ISLAMICcountries in this world. Contrary to popular belief, Saudi Arabia is NOT one of them, nor Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan etc.

There are only countries run by muslims. Now, whether or not these muslims who run these countries are adhering the Quranic code is not the issue here. There are bigots and zealots in every strata of society.

"When I go to countries run by muslims, I see muslims without Islam. When I got countries run by non muslims, I see Islam without muslims" - anonymous.

Yeah, Malaysia is not an ultimately Islamic country ... even the leaders claimed it is.

[sotahoro]

what has that got to do with anything? If your looking to belittle us ive said it once and i'll say it again, judge a religion not by its people but by its scripture which is Qur'an and sunnah!

I was not judging islam, I was judging the people. Sorry if it wasn't clear.
The other guy was saying that the West is responsible for drugs and so on. I was merely saying, that the East has some dirt in their backyard too.

[north_malaysian]

Yeah, I have to agree with that. Many Muslim zealots behave that they're the Defenders of Islam, but when we read the Koran, they behaviours are so different that the EXACT Islam.

[mizan_aliashraf]

Peace to those who follow righteous guidance
The west is the one who is producing all the heroine. They control afghanistan and its puppet regime. They are the ones who instigate illegal wars. They are the ones who have blood on their hands. They are the ones who kill innocent people. They are the ones who employ a capitalist system where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. I could go on and on about your beloved west but frankly ive got better things to waste my time on.
As i have already said before, i am not a bigot, extremist or anything else you would wish to call me.

[sotahoro]

Afghanistan a Muslim country? Hello!! It's a country colonized by westerners and have puppet leaders installed by the colonizers. That's why they encourage heroin produced in Afghanistan, to make those Afghans forget to strive for a PURE INDEPENDENCE.

Please, get your facts straight. They've been producing opium at least since 1980s. The production was peaking under the Taliban rule. And the people are almost all muslims so I don't think it's too wrong to say it's a muslim country.

[mizan_aliashraf]

So what, its the west that use it in a harmful way. Its you guys that take it in and sell it to kids and anyone who can pay for it. You want to start dishing the dirt? take a look at yourself and the rest of your godforsaken people.

[kososhahab]

y r we talking about the west? when we ourselves arent improving...

the extremists are distorting Islam's image!!! and thats why the danish journalist dare to come out wit such pictures!!! what r we goin to do with the extremists, terrorists etc.??? are we goin to let them defame Islam with the terrorizing when our Prophet Muhammad s.a.w work so hard to bring up Islam in a peaceful manner....

[UmmKhadi]

Salaam aleikum

As a Norwegian, I accept the apology. I dont want to be seen as a christian fundamentalist, wich is what they all think of Norwegian people. The newspaper that printed the pictures, is a 5000-copies magazine with maybe 4000 readers, in the EXTREME CHRISTIAN sect "Word of Life". It is not a big thing.

Norwegian Islamic Council are advicing Norwegian muslims to be calm and colected about this, and InshaAllah we can remain our dignity and dont go to the level that has been showed in Palestine etc.

Now, we are MANY muslims here in Norway living with serious death-threats. Nazis are threatening us by mail and SMS, anti-islamists are threatening same way, and then the muslims who has no knowledge of our country, are threatening us from outside.

[sotahoro]

salam
what saddam did is strongly dissaproved by all muslims, but all this happened along time ago, so why did US act now? not getting enough oil or riches perhaps?

Better late than never I think. And now was a good time, because Iraq army had become so weak.
Yes, sure they need the oil. But they will pay money for it. Wars cost a lot of money so I don't think they would've attacked Saddam it if there were no expected financial gains for them.

[Ghazi]

Accept their way of life.

Lets see, they live in northern europe, far far away from any muslim country, and you say that they demand that you accept their way of life.

Are you nuts? Or just stupid?

The Danish couldn't care less about what you accept or not.

But they do reserve the right to live they way they choose and NOT the way you think they should live.

And these protests are absolutely hysterical to me. I hope the danish make a whole magazine dedicated to insulting you. Eventually you may learn you don't have the right to not be insulted.

And when muslim publications publish images of Rabbi's eating babies and looking like rats and every possible insult you can imagine, I suppose you don't think you've done anything wrong.

Salaam

The brother hasn't done anything wrong so why accuse him, and all magazine publishers will think twice before printing anything insulting to islam.

[kososhahab]

i'm supposed "dmvprov" is a non-muslim...(pls correct me, if i'm wrong)

i read yur opinion... its interesting, r u saying that u r not supportin the muslims.. if u r not.. me as a muslim, respect yur point of view! we hav the rite to protest as it is also part of freedom of speech anyway... isnt it rite???

[sotahoro]

There are only countries run by muslims. Now, whether or not these muslims who run these countries are adhering the Quranic code is not the issue here. There are bigots and zealots in every strata of society.

Yes, I agree. The words cause some confusion here. When I say "a muslim country", I mean that the great majority of the people are muslims. I don't mean that these muslims would necessarily practise islam as the Koran teaches. And I suppose there cannot be a pure islamic country since there are so many opinions about how such a country should be.
I do not generalise the example of Afghanistan to all muslim countries.

[kososhahab]

Assalamualaikum,

i still donot undertstand y some pple r still talkin bout saddam??? isnt it history, after so many years???

[mizan_aliashraf]

Accept their way of life.

Lets see, they live in northern europe, far far away from any muslim country, and you say that they demand that you accept their way of life.

Are you nuts? Or just stupid?

The Danish couldn't care less about what you accept or not.

But they do reserve the right to live they way they choose and NOT the way you think they should live.

And these protests are absolutely hysterical to me. I hope the danish make a whole magazine dedicated to insulting you. Eventually you may learn you don't have the right to not be insulted.

And when muslim publications publish images of Rabbi's eating babies and looking like rats and every possible insult you can imagine, I suppose you don't think you've done anything wrong.

No, i dont. Because we havent. Those publications you say of rabbis eating babies and looking like rats are not far from the truth. The state of Israel has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent babies, ive been there and seen it myself, so dont you dare tell me that we portray jews in a bad light.
The sooner Israel is taught a lesson the better.

[sotahoro]

okay americans captured saddam hussain a longggg time ago.. so what reason do they have to be there to this day???

To make sure that the country reaches stability and gets a new democratic government. To provide security so that the life in Iraq can become normal. To prevent a civil war.
The war is cost billions and billions of dollars to the US. They would like to leave as soon as possible. But the situation in the country is still so unstable, that it's wiser to stay than let the country slide to more chaos and under the reign of some other dictator.

[Ghazi]

I've said before on this forum that I think the boycott and peaceful protests are wonderful. And I would defend any muslim in pursuit of this.

But that isn't what is happening here is it?

Salaam

And whats happening here bro.

[Ghazi]

You aren't very bright are you?

You won't be teaching Israel anything. They have already shown that they can squash anything the muslim countries try to do, and that was long ago before they had a modern military. If they are threatened, I think you'll be in for a very rude awakening. The paper tigers of the muslim world will wither away quite quickly. And I don't think Israel will be very concerned about civilian deaths. They won't be taking land so you won't be able to use geurilla tactics against them. Your cities and military power will simply be destroyed.

Salaam

The kufar of the past tried and failed so will the ones of the present and future.

[UmmKhadi]

While you are fighting details here, our muslim brothers and sisters in Norway are actually recieving death threats, and also one brother has been stabbed in his house the other day.

[kososhahab]

i think the danes has reasons to why they published the cartoon if of our beloved prophet. and the simple reason is the fact that some of us are still supporting terrosist which has defmaed Islam and Muhammad s.a.w!!!

Let me rpeat maself!

THE TERRORISTS HAS DEFAMED ISLAM AND MUHAMMAD
till that the danish papers dare to come out with such pics!!!

so! bros! i'm proposing that we hav PEACE CAMPAIGN or sumtin to promote islam to the world... hence we r tellin them that we r a peaceful religion!!!

[UmmKhadi]

We have been threatened by nazis and anti-islamist groups.

[kadafi]

:sl:

May I suggest that people stay on topic and do not introduce any other topics other than the one being discussed.

To discuss about Israel and its history, start a new topic.

:w:

[kososhahab]

We have been threatened by nazis and anti-islamist groups.

why are u threatened anyway???

[songinwind]

salam
muslims have been pushed all the time, everytime the kuffars killed a muslim or did something agaisnt us did they say sorry? did america say sorry for killing innocent people in muslims countries? did blair say sorry for trying to introduce a 90 day detention for terrorist suspects? did any kuffar say sorry for the harm and torment they have given to us muslims?
wasalam

I have to totaly agree with this brother..I can think here, the many things done against us...and "we" are to say "sorry"...This boycott is making people really think, because its hitting them,where they find the most importance "their greed"....If u lived where I do, see if u can walk down a street , head covered, in freedom..where your Amish neighbor, can,,,why"..she isn't a muslim...this is why....:)

[UmmKhadi]

why are u threatened anyway???

They are threatening to kill us, because muslims are burning our flags and burning our embassies.

[kososhahab]

ooo... i don think our muslims shud do such things!!!

even or beloved Muhammad s.a.w, when mocked, he didnt burn the mocker's house , did he.. we realy need to reflect on thiis...

however, i'm not saying we cant protest... we can and we shud! we hav the rites to protest but in a peaceful manner! i hope u all get what i'm tryin to say!

[songinwind]

ooo... i don think our muslims shud do such things!!!

even or beloved Muhammad s.a.w, when mocked, he didnt burn the mocker's house , did he.. we realy need to reflect on thiis...

however, i'm not saying we cant protest... we can and we shud! we hav the rites to protest but in a peaceful manner! i hope u all get what i'm tryin to say!

You are right brother..there are many places where its talked about, how Mohammed PBUH was moked, and many things done to him,,and not once did he retalate..But always spoke, and did things in a peaceful manner...thank u for reminding us of this..

[HeiGou]

salam
i have seen it many times myself when a muslim gets attacked and tells the police, the police say they will do something but up untill today they haven't contacted
wasalam

Hey, they do that for everyone. The police in the West are usually over worked and over stretched. And if there is no evidence to go on, there is no evidence. That is not the same as the police refusing to help Muslims specifically. They are unable to help everyone. Equally.

[HeiGou]

:sl:
Ok I'll put it nice and simple: you physically attack me in the streets, I will knock you out. That's a warning to any fool who wants a piece of me.

I'm not looking for trouble nor are many muslims over the world. But push any of us too far, the least you can expect is an A grade butt-whooping.

If they aren't going to apologise, fine, they are in the bad light. Not us.

May I ask how old you are?

It is simple. The problem is that no matter how weak the West looks, it is much stronger than the Muslim world. So, as you can see in Palestine, there is not a lot that Muslims can do without the support of at least part of the West. On top of which the Muslims in the West are a small minority. Little guys do not whoop anyone's butts. They get beaten. So, please correct me if I am wrong, there are two options here: you can accept that you are a minority in a hostile country and work harder for justice for all or you can attack the majority driving the moderates into the camp of the extremists. You may not like Tony Blair as Prime Minister of Britain (I assume that is where you live) but keep this up and you can deal with Nick Griffin. Think that would improve your situation? If you want to work with non-Muslims for a just and equal world, then fine. If you want to try and administer a butt kicking to the indifferent, unaligned, moderate majority what do you think is more likely - they will sit there and take it or you and the entire Muslim community of Britain will be on a boat to Pakistan or worse? Think before replying.

Personally I hope you think seriously about how much better a more just Britain would be.

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
if the muslims beleive in allah, then allah will always help out his beleivers inshallah, no one is more mighty and powerful than allah
wasalam

[Malsidabym]

Mizan_aliashraf, first I want to say that i COMPLETELY agree that the cartoons were very disrespectful. There is no defense for printing that garbage. "the Danish" seems to imply "all of the Danish", many danish people are disgusted with the actions of this newspaper. Also, many danish are practising muslims.

did any kuffar say sorry for the harm and torment they have given to us muslims?

Again, this is very general, "any" kuffar, most non-muslims prefer to live in peace with muslims and are apposed to mistreating muslims. Why would "any kuffar" be sorry for wanting peace?
do police do anythin if a muslim bro gets attacked in the streets?In which country? In my country all are treated the same, I am sorry if not the case where you live.
does anyone do anything when muslims worldwide are suffering at the hands of kuffars? Worldwide protests actually, including western countries, even in the evil empire (i mean the USA). You don't remember the protests? Selective memory?

i have seen it many times myself when a muslim gets attacked and tells the police, the police say they will do something but up untill today they haven't contacted

I am sorry my friend, but in my country as well as yours, the police are lazy. This experience of recieving no help from the police is not unique to muslims, EVERYBODY complains about this. I personally have suffered this many times.

dirty filty kuffar

Now this just smells of arrogance and disdain. This is offensive. If a person has a different view than islam they are "dirty and filthy". This is also against the rules of this forum, as you are calling any non-muslim member dirty and filthy.

As i have already said before, i am not a bigot, extremist or anything else you would wish to call me.

I will not call you anything, this is the meaning of bigot, read it and consider your own way of thinking; Bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.

They are the ones who kill innocent people.

Muslims kill innocent people too. Even other muslims. We are all guilty, every religion, race, and nationality has killed others in thier own interest.

You want to start dishing the dirt? take a look at yourself and the rest of your godforsaken people.

Again, I won't call you a bigot, but this particular statement is full of hatred and arrogance. By the way, the common use of opium originated in the east and is used widely through all regions (except the far north) of the world today, including europe, north america, the middle east and asia. Not just the west.
Another poster said;

And when muslim publications publish images of Rabbi's eating babies and looking like rats and every possible insult you can imagine, I suppose you don't think you've done anything wrong.

and you responded with this;

No, i dont. Because we havent. Those publications you say of rabbis eating babies and looking like rats are not far from the truth. The state of Israel has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent babies, ive been there and seen it myself, so dont you dare tell me that we portray jews in a bad light.
The sooner Israel is taught a lesson the better.

Wow, you have seen hundreds of thousands of dead babies? You poor man. that must have been awful. I see here a double-standard, you can publish terrible stuff, but others cannot. Hmm. Again also, bigotted statement because I am sure that all jews do not dine on babies. Please stop enciting hatred toward others. It is offensive. This is an Islamic website. And Islam is supposed to be a religion of peace. I think it would be good if I pray for your soul mizan_aliashraf, that you will learn to let go of the hatred, as I am sure that god will not allow such hatred to enter heaven. Peace be with you.

[Malsidabym]

Worldwide protests actually, including western countries, even in the evil empire (i mean the USA). You don't remember the protests? Selective memory?

I was refering here to when the US invaded Iraq, there were protests worldwide. Western governments opposed as well. Just to refute the claim that "kuffars" don't speak out when muslims are attacked.

[Christian_dove]

Salam
What i want to know is why are muslims apologising to the danish when the danish have not apologised to us?
Wassalam

Who exactly is it you want to hear the apologise from? The editor of newspaper already apologised several days ago. Do you want all danish people to say that they are sorry?

[Christian_dove]

Salaam

The majority of muslims don't owe an apology it's the small percentage, plus after remarks from the queen I'm supporting the boycott till we get a full apology from the comic makers and the queen.

The remark from the queen wasn't a remark, it was en error in the translation that came out wrong. The Danish word "Modspil" was translated and given the meaning "oposition" which is wrong. She was just emphasizing the importance of debate/good arguments, nothing more.

[Christian_dove]

Salam
Yay Yay, i thought i was heating up - go on bro, he's firing on all cylinders!
We owe the danish nothing! Did the queen make remarks about us? These dirty filthy kuffars will never be happy with us untill we accept their way of life - meaning alcohol, drugs, prostitution and all the other filth the west has given to this world. That is what people like the MCB have to realise. They are sucking up to the government too much. The end will always be humiliation for such people
Wassalam

Do you really believe that all europeans enjoy those things, prostitutes, drugs, alcohol? Isn't that attitude a bit extreme?

[Christian_dove]

I was refering here to when the US invaded Iraq, there were protests worldwide. Western governments opposed as well. Just to refute the claim that "kuffars" don't speak out when muslims are attacked.

Not to mention the fact that UN solidiers were sent to former jugoslavia to protect the muslims from christians... Many denish and norwegian soldiers served there..

[Umar001]

Salaam

The majority of muslims don't owe an apology it's the small percentage, plus after remarks from the queen I'm supporting the boycott till we get a full apology from the comic makers and the queen.

what did she say?

[Sis786]

I personally feel that to resolve this matter the following need to be done,

1. The Denmark Government need to acknowledge that the Cartoons WERE Offensive and that he could understand the frustration and anger of Muslims.
2. He needs to apologise and LOOK LIKE HE MEANS IT
3. Bann his Country from re-publishing the Cartoons
4. Ask other Countries NOT to re-print the Cartoons for the SOLE reason of solidarity to Denmark Press.
5. Acknowledge that these Cartoons were made for the sole purpose of Humiliating the Muslims and Disgracing their Religion
6. AND take those who were involved in making these pictures to COURT.
7. They also need to acknowledge the DIFFERENCE between FREEDOM of Speech and BLASPHEMY

He should also ask for other countries THAT published these cartoons to do the same. Im not saying that this will resolve the matter FULL STOP. But atleast Muslims know that the Denmark Goverment are taking some Responsibility.

[UmmKhadi]

But what does the government has to do with a newspaper? Its freedom of press here, the governemnt dont read through newspapers before its printed. Why isnt the apology of the publisher enough?

[Sis786]

But what does the government has to do with a newspaper? Its freedom of press here, the governemnt dont read through newspapers before its printed. Why isnt the apology of the publisher enough?

The Goverment has a responisiblty of what is happening in thier Country! Imagine if HUNDREDS of Danish people were killed because of this DONT you think the Goverment would be responsible then. All Goverments must ensure that thier Counrty and Members are safe. The Danish Goverment has put thier own people at risk due to thier IGNORANCE.

If the Joradan Goverment can stand up and apologise they WHY cant the Danish.

[Ghazi]

what did she say?

Salaam

Don't wanna go off topic, do a search and you'll find it.

[UmmKhadi]

The Goverment has a responisiblty of what is happening in thier Country! Imagine if HUNDREDS of Danish people were killed because of this DONT you think the Goverment would be responsible then. All Goverments must ensure that thier Counrty and Members are safe. The Danish Goverment has put thier own people at risk due to thier IGNORANCE.

If the Joradan Goverment can stand up and apologise they WHY cant the Danish.

The difference is that in Denmark its a "Democracy" and with the freedom of press, comes responsability. The Norwegian Prime minister did not really say he was sorry himself, because he dont feel responsible for what some extremist right-winged christian magazine did, but he is sorry that it was printed because it destroys the relation between muslims and nonmuslims living in Norway. In Denmark, people are different than Norwegians, they are more conservative politically, and they dont back off easilly.

I still dont think its a states responsability. The publisher of the "Jyllandsposten" did this on his own. They can print what they want, the Government has no say, unless they did something illegal. Newspapers here are private, not owned by governments.

[TSpot]

Imagine if HUNDREDS of Danish people were killed because of this DONT you think the Goverment would be responsible then. All Goverments must ensure that thier Counrty and Members are safe. The Danish Goverment has put thier own people at risk due to thier IGNORANCE.

The ignorance comes on the part of those who think that the Danish government supports, condones or even has anything to do with the cartoons. That is not the way a free press works. Even if hundreds are killed as a result, that is the responsibility of those who killed them. People are not made safe from governmental censorship of the press or appeasement of terrorists.

[sotahoro]

I personally feel that to resolve this matter the following need to be done,

1. The Denmark Government need to acknowledge that the Cartoons WERE Offensive and that he could understand the frustration and anger of Muslims.
2. He needs to apologise and LOOK LIKE HE MEANS IT
3. Bann his Country from re-publishing the Cartoons
4. Ask other Countries NOT to re-print the Cartoons for the SOLE reason of solidarity to Denmark Press.
5. Acknowledge that these Cartoons were made for the sole purpose of Humiliating the Muslims and Disgracing their Religion
6. AND take those who were involved in making these pictures to COURT.
7. They also need to acknowledge the DIFFERENCE between FREEDOM of Speech and BLASPHEMY

It's not very wise to give demands that will never be satisfied. If the demands were reasonable, we might get an end to this insident.

[Ghazi]

It's not very wise to give demands that will never be satisfied. If the demands were reasonable, we might get an end to this insident.

Salaam

They seem reasonable to me

[TSpot]

Salaam

They seem reasonable to me

Some are, but most simply can't be done

3. Bann his Country from re-publishing the Cartoons

This can't be done in a country with a free press. I am not an expert on Danish law, but it would clearly be unconsitutional in the US

4. Ask other Countries NOT to re-print the Cartoons for the SOLE reason of solidarity to Denmark Press.

Sure they could do that, but I doubt there would be any effect. Many countries have already printed them in solidarity with the Danish press. Also, many 'buy Danish' campaigns have sprung up in response to the violence. The question of solidarity is an interesting one. It would have been an non-issue if radical Muslims had not taken this campaign out of Europe (and added cartoons that were not ever published).

5. Acknowledge that these Cartoons were made for the sole purpose of Humiliating the Muslims and Disgracing their Religion

How can he do that? It is probably not even true. I will never know why they were made but I would guess it was probably a combination of political aims and to juxtapose the true beliefs of Islam with the tactics used by radicals.

6. AND take those who were involved in making these pictures to COURT.

Can't be done. It is not illegal

7. They also need to acknowledge the DIFFERENCE between FREEDOM of Speech and BLASPHEMY

Blasphemy is protected speech. Religions are ridiculed all the time. Remember the "Piss Christ" debacle? Heck that was even put on with U.S. government funds. People are free to protest, complain to their politicians, etc. but violence is not the way.

Violence, in fact, it is creating the backlash right now. I could give you hundreds of links, most from mainstream media outlets that never would have heard of much less published the cartoons who are now doing so (I won't since they would offend). I can understand the outcry, the protests and the boycott. Once violence was used, opinion was once again polarized against those who used it.

[abdullahi]

Read the news and they you know what she said, man.



I think I as a dirty filty kuffar will be quite happy to accept your strange ways when you start behaving like reasonable people and stop the bigots from preventing our cultures to live side by side in co-operation.

By the way, did you know has much heroin Afghanistan, a muslim country, has produced? 87% of all heroin has been said to be produced there.

:sl:
dude, do u think its a mere coincidence that heroin production has increased 800% in afghanistan during the us invasion? could the CIA have a hand in this?

refer to:
http://www.robert-fisk.com/lies_abou...ban_heroin.htm -robert fisk's the man!
http://www.sonic.net/~doretk/Issues/...ciacovert.html -written by well-known uni prof.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/155...lance&n=283155 - great book
http://www.lycaeum.org/drugwar/DARKA.../ciaheron.html
http://www.ciadrugs.com/



http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/qdimu.html -excerpts from Financial Times (London)

[Ken Nielsen]

Salam
What i want to know is why are muslims apologising to the danish when the danish have not apologised to us?
Wassalam

Hi,

This is my first post. I am an American Christian and wanted to respond to the above. Muslims loose no face by speaking out against wrong behavior. It is only a blessing to hear Muslims support moderate behavior in reaction to being slighted in a cartoon. As a Christian, I hear 'oh jesus this' and 'oh jesus that' as a swearing term by unthinking people. Yes it hurts to have your faith slighted or used in swearing, but one must remember that people who do this are really not aware of what they are saying, or they would not do it.

Being a graphic artist by profession, I am well acquainted with what 'art' is and what 'free expression' is also. Much of what I see as 'free expression' is terribly offensive, but, under the better judgement of men, such expression is allowed to take place. Those who offend others will learn the price of making offense by their own experience, we can only hope. It is going to far to take to the streets and burning buildings and killing people as a retribution for hurt feelings.

I will leave my comment on this at that. I do get the impression that this is a forum filled with good people who show respect for each other and for humanity at large. I would like to honor that.

Thank you for keeping a forum like this open and available to those who wish to stop by and make a comment.


Ken

[Ghazi]

Hi,

This is my first post. I am an American Christian and wanted to respond to the above. Muslims loose no face by speaking out against wrong behavior. It is only a blessing to hear Muslims support moderate behavior in reaction to being slighted in a cartoon. As a Christian, I hear 'oh jesus this' and 'oh jesus that' as a swearing term by unthinking people. Yes it hurts to have your faith slighted or used in swearing, but one must remember that people who do this are really not aware of what they are saying, or they would not do it.

Being a graphic artist by profession, I am well acquainted with what 'art' is and what 'free expression' is also. Much of what I see as 'free expression' is terribly offensive, but, under the better judgement of men, such expression is allowed to take place. Those who offend others will learn the price of making offense by their own experience, we can only hope. It is going to far to take to the streets and burning buildings and killing people as a retribution for hurt feelings.

I will leave my comment on this at that. I do get the impression that this is a forum filled with good people who show respect for each other and for humanity at large. I would like to honor that.

Thank you for keeping a forum like this open and available to those who wish to stop by and make a comment.


Ken

Salaam

Why haven't you done something about people Talking about 'Isa'(Jesues) in a bad way, this is a question I should be asking my self and the rest of the muslims on this fourm.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

Salaam

Why haven't you done something about people Talking about 'Isa'(Jesues) in a bad way, this is a question I should be asking my self and the rest of the muslims on this fourm.

Perhaps if we were told of the specific "flaming" of prophet Isa.

[Ken Nielsen]

Salaam

Why haven't you done something about people Talking about 'Isa'(Jesues) in a bad way, this is a question I should be asking my self and the rest of the muslims on this fourm.

What do suggest that I do?

[Curious girl2]

Hi all,

I've been following this thread with interest. The overall impression I am getting from certain members is that Muslims, as a whole, are not responsible for the recent violent protests regarding those cartoons. Well I agree, totally, it is only certain individuals, who are giving Islam a bad name by protesting, violently, in the name of Islam.

However, another impression I am getting is one that I feel I must respond to. The impression I am getting is that certain members are of the opinion that the *west* as a whole, is responsible, is a bad thing, is an evil thing that must be avoided at all costs and that the west, being non muslim, is something that can never be on the same level morally as followers of Islam.

I find this quite astonishing that on one hand the posters can dismiss the violent protesters as not being representative of Islam as whole (which by the way I agree with) but on the other condemns the west as a whole as evil and filthy. How can this be?

Islam is not one person, neither is western society. There are very many people out there who proclaim to be muslims and to live a pious life who in reality do much damage to the reputation of Islam by their day to day actions. I see it every day in the community I live in. Young men, from muslim backgrounds, dating and having relationships in the same way that non muslims do. Drinking, behaving violently, taking drugs, its not just westerners you know, the guy who dressed up as a suicide bomber in the London protests was a convicted drug dealer who was out from prison on licence. I do wonder what the prophet (pbuh) would have made of that individual. These are the people that are, sadly, representing Islam. However I KNOW that is not a true representation of Islam. Islam is a religion of peace, however I know that because I have taken it onto myself to remain open minded and to learn.

Its the same with Jews too. Some of them are responsible for the atrocities in Palestine, and other repressions too. But not the Israeli nation as a whole.

The west isnt perfect either, it never will be. However please do not beleive that every non muslim in the west is a *dirty, filthy, kuffar*. That isnt the case. There are many people, by far the majority in fact, who are decent people. Some of them are religious, some of them are not. So please, I ask you, as a western-ex-christian-soon-to-be-muslim-revert, be open minded. There is good in every society if you look for it.

Curious Girl

[Ghazi]

What do suggest that I do?

Salaam

Made your voiced here, got together with church leaders ect, The really should be a law against this type of hate.

[Curious girl2]

so! bros! i'm proposing that we hav PEACE CAMPAIGN or sumtin to promote islam to the world... hence we r tellin them that we r a peaceful religion!!![/QUOTE]



Couldnt agree more.

Curious Girl

[Halima]

so! bros! i'm proposing that we hav PEACE CAMPAIGN or sumtin to promote islam to the world... hence we r tellin them that we r a peaceful religion!!!

There is a campaign section here if anyone would like to protest..or something :)


http://www.islamicboard.com/campaigns/

[Ken Nielsen]

:sl:

Perhaps if we were told of the specific "flaming" of prophet Isa.

Is is as I mentioned above. The name of Jesus is used as a substitute word for a swear word, as in cursing. This happens often with people who are unthinking, so much so that it becomes a habit. I am more aware of it than most who do not have any faith. I hear 'Oh God' on television used as a way of exclaiming 'wow, I'm impressed' but even that is like an unthinking and improper way of using the name of one that is owed the deepest respect.

I excuse people as I cannot speak to all in passing during a day, but if I am near someone and I can confide in them in a personal way, and not to call attention to them or embarrass them in front of others, I will let them know that what they have just said hurts me and it is defaming the name of one that I love.

This should make them think, and maybe stop speaking without thinking.


Ken

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

Is is as I mentioned above. The name of Jesus is used as a substitute word for a swear word, as in cursing. This happens often with people who are unthinking, so much so that it becomes a habit. I am more aware of it than most who do not have any faith. I hear 'Oh God' on television used as a way of exclaiming 'wow, I'm impressed' but even that is like an unthinking and improper way of using the name of one that is owed the deepest respect.

I excuse people as I cannot speak to all in passing during a day, but if I am near someone and I can confide in them in a personal way, and not to call attention to them or embarrass them in front of others, I will let them know that what they have just said hurts me and it is defaming the name of one that I love.

This should make them think, and maybe stop speaking without thinking.


Ken

I know what your saying but unfortunately, the world we live in is dominated by the ignorant :(

[Ken Nielsen]

Salaam

Made your voiced here, got together with church leaders ect, The really should be a law against this type of hate.

This is off topic from the original subject so I will answer briefly and get back to the original thread topic. There is a law already against this type of hate. It is called the third commandment and it is the law of God. It is readily apparent to me that just because there is a law against something doesn't mean that people will not still go ahead and break that law.

What puts power behind the law is judgement and penalty. These people also do not realize that there will be this too as a result of their disrespect.

Back to the original topic.

Oh, I am Danish too.


Ken Nielsen

[Ken Nielsen]

so! bros! i'm proposing that we hav PEACE CAMPAIGN or sumtin to promote islam to the world... hence we r tellin them that we r a peaceful religion!!!



Couldnt agree more.

Curious Girl

I think all people would have to do is come here and see what is being posted. I'm more impressed by the people here, and I know it is posting from real Muslim believers. Much respect for you all,


Ken

[Ken Nielsen]

:sl:

I know what your saying but unfortunately, the world we live in is dominated by the ignorant :(

Well, doesn't this say something for the sad shape of the world today? Those who want to live in peace, and enjoy the higher purpose of our lives, yet we are swept along by the viciousness of the ignorant who dominate the world?

I think that is the root of the problem right there.


Ken

[Wahid]

Please, get your facts straight. They've been producing opium at least since 1980s. The production was peaking under the Taliban rule. And the people are almost all muslims so I don't think it's too wrong to say it's a muslim country.

hahahhahahhahahha
the opium trade was peaking during taliban times?? u got it 100% back ward, the opium trade was reduced next to nothing in taliban years and only picked up hugly after the americans occupied it
dont cliam you know something when you dont
---------------------------

http://opioids.com/afghanistan/opium-economy.html


Opium production spreading in Afghanistan
First-time growers lured by high prices
amid weak oversight, economy




by
Robyn Dixon
KABUL, Afghanistan - Mohammad Ashrafy waited for the death of the family figurehead, a respected mullah, before he finally planted opium poppies this year for the first time.

And sometimes, when he gazed out over the huge stretch of poppies he grew in the Ghor province of central Afghanistan this spring and summer, he felt guilty, recalling the admonishments of his late uncle, Mullah Mortaza Kahn.

"We know growing opium is against Islam, but we have to do it," said Ashrafy, 38. "I was the only person left here not growing it, and there was no mullah telling me to stop."

The United Nations estimates that half of Ghor's farmers don't earn enough to cover basic needs. So exhortations to plant alternatives seem doomed when a grower can make about $5,200 from an acre of opium but $121 from an acre of wheat.

Ashrafy and his brother support 35 relatives, including the widows and children of two other brothers killed in the country's long wars.

Last year, Ashrafy grew wheat, but it provided only half of what the family needed. "If I don't grow [opium]," he said, "I'm sure we'll die because we cannot grow enough wheat for ourselves."

So he prays to make peace with Allah.

Throughout Afghanistan, thousands who never grew opium began harvesting their crops in May, taught by experienced poppy farmers who have been traveling to new areas to share their skills.

Afghanistan regained its position as the largest opium country last year, producing 3,750 tons, and this year, production is expected to be as high, according to the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime. Seventy-five percent of the world's heroin, obtained from opium poppies, comes from Afghanistan.

At a congressional hearing in Washington in June, Bernard Farhi, chief of the operations branch of the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime, said opium brought Afghanistan $1.2 billion last year - equal to the international aid to Afghanistan in that period. In a recent report, the International Monetary Fund said opium accounted for up to half of Afghanistan's gross domestic product, amounting to $2.5 billion in exports.

Early in the era of the Taliban, the radical Islamic regime that allowed the al-Qaida terror network to flourish in Afghanistan, opium cultivation was permitted. But in July 2000, more than a year before the United States knocked it out of power, the Taliban banned the crop and introduced the death penalty for opium crimes, leading to a sharp decline in production.

Now, the regions outside Kabul are under the control of warlords, many of whom benefit from the trade. Last year's production was nine times higher than during the final year of Taliban rule.

Without a national police force or army, President Hamid Karzai's interim government cannot enforce its poppy ban, leaving drug-eradication workers exposed to retaliation. In June, seven of them were mobbed and killed by enraged poppy farmers in Oruzgan province, 250 miles southwest of Kabul, where authorities were making a major effort to reduce the poppy crops.

Security in Afghanistan has deteriorated sharply in recent months with an increase in attacks by anti-government militants. Many argue that without better security in the provinces, efforts to control poppy-growing will fail.

"The fact of the matter is you can't stop opium production when the warlords control the regions and when we don't expand security beyond Kabul," Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr., a Delaware Democrat, said at a hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee on drugs and terrorism in May. "It was a power vacuum created by warlords and drug-traffickers that enabled the Taliban and al-Qaida to turn Afghanistan into an international swamp. ... And now we're back in the same situation again."

Even before the death of his uncle, who had not been involved with the Taliban, Ashrafy learned to harvest poppies by helping with his neighbor's poppy harvest last year.

Ashrafy and his surviving brother are large landowners. In the past four years of devastating drought, many smaller farmers went into debt. This year, many of them were given loans and seeds by drug traders, to be repaid upon harvest.

The political fate of the governor of Ghor province, Ebrahim Malakzada, is a telling example of what can happen to those who try to stop farmers from growing poppies.

"This year, the only person who said not to grow opium was the governor," said Ashrafy, the Ghor poppy farmer. "He met with the elders and told them not to let people grow poppies. Then a commander chased him out, and he had to flee."

The deputy governor, Mulladin Mohammad Azimy, seized the official governor's residence, and Malakzada, an ally of Karzai's, was forced to live in Kabul for a time.

An expert on the international drug trade, Rensselaer Lee, told the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing that the control of drugs has taken a back seat to fighting terrorism, building consensus and strengthening alliances.

"To build these alliances, unfortunately, we've had to make some arrangements, compromises with people who, frankly, may have some history of involvement with the drug trade and may be even currently protecting the drug trade," said Lee, president of Global Advisory Services, a Virginia-based research group.

In early June, Karzai called for $20 billion in foreign aid, warning that without an economic boost, people would have to live on the opium trade.

Afghan Finance Minister Ghani Ahmadzai has also warned that without more international aid, Afghanistan could become reliant on the drug trade and crime - a problem that would be more expensive to fix than giving short-term aid.

[Wahid]

You are right brother..there are many places where its talked about, how Mohammed PBUH was moked, and many things done to him,,and not once did he retalate..But always spoke, and did things in a peaceful manner...thank u for reminding us of this..

salam
he didnt have the power to retaliate then.. and like Allah(swt) says in the quran, repay an equal evil to an evil done to you but you have the choice to forgive as well

i dont have an online Quran perhaps some of the bros/sis can post that iyah

[_salam_]

:sl:

why should we wait for them to apologise first? shouldnt we be better than them?

just because they are too proud and blinded to apologise that doesnt mean that we should be too

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the riots and protests and other things that Muslims have been doing, but if an apology is to be expected for those things it should be coming from the ones who did it not from me or other people that weren't involved. Thats like somebody asking me to apologize for 9/11 just because I'm a Muslim. I didn't do anythig so I have nothing to apologize for.

[anis_z24]

Salam
The Danes must know that what they did is wrong.
But who will they listen to when one Muslim country boycots and another doesn't.
The Muslim Ummah is not orginized.
So Enemies of Islam are now laughing at the Muslims. They have now assured themselves that we are unorginized.
And this can be a decoy. Mabe there is something else coming, and they have this cartoon scandal to take our attention.

[anis_z24]

Salam
I have question. But how can we make fun of something that was a myth.

[songinwind]

salam
he didnt have the power to retaliate then.. and like Allah(swt) says in the quran, repay an equal evil to an evil done to you but you have the choice to forgive as well

i dont have an online Quran perhaps some of the bros/sis can post that iyah

first..are you muslim?? as u mentioned online needed online quran,,

http://www.equran.org/qurantranslation.html.

I have posted u one ...
One of the bro/sisters will have to answer this, as even tho I have read the quran 2 times, and on my 3rd...I don't know just where all the certin verses are ...

[martina]

is there any prrof that muslims were responsible for 9/11

I'm thinking MOHAMMED ATTA was Jewish....? That would be my guess anyway. What do you think?

[Malsidabym]

anis_z24

I have question. But how can we make fun of something that was a myth.

Terrible, terrible thing to say....shame..I have seen old Jews wuth numbers tatooed on thier arms, they can reassure you there is no myth. Shame.

[north_malaysian]

I've seen male Muslims being naked and asked to do many kind of acts, as a joke or fun by Americans (remembereing Abu Ghuraib), it's not a myth too.

[Malsidabym]

I agree. The actions displayed by the americans were disgusting.

[martina]

I agree. The actions displayed by the americans were disgusting.

And again we're off topic.

Everything on this forum reads like this:

This thing is horrible.

But the Americans did this other thing.

Yeah the Americans did that other thing, so I guess it's okay.

[Halima]

:sl:

This is a last and final warning to everyone. Listen and you'll never go wrong.Stay on topic.
:w:

[Wahid]

first..are you muslim?? as u mentioned online needed online quran,,

http://www.equran.org/qurantranslation.html.

I have posted u one ...
One of the bro/sisters will have to answer this, as even tho I have read the quran 2 times, and on my 3rd...I don't know just where all the certin verses are ...

salam
yes i am and looking at my profile wouldnt hurt either, i dont get what ur saying about online quran but i wanted to copy and paste the verse since i didnt know the exact verse word by word

[Malsidabym]

I formally nominate Martina as moderator (sorry Martina, hall monitor has already been taken).

[songinwind]

I'm thinking MOHAMMED ATTA was Jewish....? That would be my guess anyway. What do you think?

Mohammed Atta ...In 1999 he began attending an Islamic prayer group at the university, where he is believed to have recruited others for Muslim fundamentalist causes.(he was muslim) from egypt,,
http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/in....asp?indid=757

[Christian_dove]

the thing is, Iran has now launched a competition for caricatures joking about the holocaust.....i completely support these acts, and i guess i will be entering some myself [MAD][/MAD]

Two wrongs doesn't make one right...

[Christian_dove]

Salam
I have question. But how can we make fun of something that was a myth.

Now, that IS an insult!

Please don't take part in this campaign that a newspaper owned by mediocre idiots are running. There is absolutely no doubt the holocaust took place. There were internation camps all over Europe during the second world war, even the school I went to as a child was a internation camp. I know stories from people who were there, I've seen pictures, they were horrible. It makes the USA/Iraq war seem like a walk in the park. The only ones who denies these facts today in Europe are the extreme leftist nazists (because they hate jews and because most of them are ignorant racists with no knowledge.).

These are some photos of victims:

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/pho...s/MedExp01.jpg
This one makes me cry, germans experimented with children, and you have no idea what kind of horrors they were exposed to.

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/pho...s/Belsen01.jpg
http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/pho...s/Belzec01.jpg
http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/Pit.jpg
http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/pho...s/MedExp03.jpg (medical experiments)
http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/pho...s/MedExp04.jpg
(Nazi medical experiments: a prisoner is submerged in a tank filled with cold water. The goal of this type of experiments was to check how long German pilots, who had to parachute into the cold north sea, would survive. Different types of clothing were tested, as well as different methods for reviving the experimental subjects who survived.)
http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/EG1.jpg (jews being shot)
http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/EG2.jpg
http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/EG3.jpg
http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/pho...s/Report01.jpg (papers from one camp...)
http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/pho...s/Maidan01.jpg
http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/pho...es/Kristl1.jpg (burning synagogue)

You may dislike jews, but the fact is they have gone through a lot of suffering through the years. No wonder they are so protective about their own nation. It's not because they are all "evil", many are able to recall memories from the past that they don't want to see happen again.

Making fun of holocaust will make the good Muhammad swirl inside his grave, I can't think for one second that ANYONE who makes fun of this tragedy will ever be allowed to enter paradise. So I think you should beware, Allah knows your mind better you do yourself, be sure it is not filled with lies or filth.

And these are photos of the camps themselves, which of some are museums today, they can be visited and are full og pictures that will make your stumack turn:

http://www.imagesforreflection.com/places.html

And if you still don't believe it happened, this site is the official Auschwitz site (in germany, hence the domain ending with .de!), do you think germans would have agreed to have done these things (or have german webpages about it) if it weren't true?:

http://auschwitz.dk/Holocaust1.htm

And just as you know it, there were lots of non-jewish people killed during the II world war too:

http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/

[Sis786]

Assalaam Alykum Peace to you all

I agree with your comments that Two wrongs don’t make a right. But I suppose this is a way of teaching people that FREEDOM of SPEECH can go both ways. I agree writing about a time in which many people were killed brutally for their religion is disgusting BUT then writing about a Man whom Most Muslims consider and Love more than there very life is equally Disgusting.

What everyone needs to remember is that YES there is Freedom of Speech and YES there is FREEDOM of Press BUT there HAS GOT TO BE A LINE. if there is no line what we will have are Societies clashing Religious Groups HATING each other and VIOLENCE well there will defiantly be Violence as people will become animals.

The Line you could call it consideration or Respect. This is a trait that all people need and if this is something that we all disregard and abuse then YES we will be living like animals SAYING WHAT WE want even thought it maybe false.

Imagine HOW ONE FALSE COMMENT CAN LEAD TO BLOOD SHED, Hmm remember this verse and the outcome of this verse.

"Saddam Husssein can make a Nuclear Weapon in 40 minutes"

Yeah was just a line.... A line that led to Hundred and Thousands of Iraqis loosing their lives, Hundred and Thousands of Children and Women becoming Orphans and Widows.

So we must really think before we make any kind of statement.

I don’t think the ALL Danish people should apologise like a Sister said before a majority of Danish People are against the publication of these cartoons. But i do think the Government of Denmark should have chose their words a bit more carefully.

Further the RE publications of these cartoons was like pouring FUEL on a already fierce FIRE.

[kososhahab]

me myself as a muslim, i think we as muslims mocking the jews is vry vry wrong!! i kno that u all r frustrated and angry at the Danish journalist! But instead of mockin the jews , we shud b showing them wats right and to b a role model for them... so they can follow the peaceful way of islam..

[HeiGou]

The Goverment has a responisiblty of what is happening in thier Country! Imagine if HUNDREDS of Danish people were killed because of this DONT you think the Goverment would be responsible then. All Goverments must ensure that thier Counrty and Members are safe. The Danish Goverment has put thier own people at risk due to thier IGNORANCE.

If the Joradan Goverment can stand up and apologise they WHY cant the Danish.

The government does not have responsibility to the evil deeds of a vicious few. If anyone kills an innocent Danish person the sole responsibility lies with the murderers, not with the Danish government. All governments must ensure their country and people are safe. But they also must uphold civilised values - and freedom of speech is an important value. So the solution is to track down and punish anyone who kills Danish civilians. The Danish government has not put anyone at risk - the entire responsibility here lies with the radical Muslims - those who lied about what the cartoons said, those who incited violence, and if there are any killings (and there have been) those who kill. I would be interested in any interpretation of Islamic law that says the blame for murder lies with anyone other than the murderer.

Those cartoons should not have been published, perhaps, but now they have been. And because they have been it is not an issue of politeness anymore, but one of defending fundamental rights - the right for Danish people to say what they like in Denmark, the right of the Danes to live their own lives in peace, the right of every nation to its own laws and customs and culture. Now it has become important not to give in to bullying. If the Danes do not then their entire public and political space will be dominated by the regimes of Egypt and Pakistan.

[HeiGou]

I've seen male Muslims being naked and asked to do many kind of acts, as a joke or fun by Americans (remembereing Abu Ghuraib), it's not a myth too.

Funny, I've seen Chinese Malaysian women being naked and forced to do many things, including ear squats, by Malaysians. It is not a myth either. Do you have a point?

[HeiGou]

Assalaam Alykum Peace to you all

I agree with your comments that Two wrongs don’t make a right. But I suppose this is a way of teaching people that FREEDOM of SPEECH can go both ways. I agree writing about a time in which many people were killed brutally for their religion is disgusting BUT then writing about a Man whom Most Muslims consider and Love more than there very life is equally Disgusting.

Which is fair enough. I do not think that it is fair to publish cartoons that insult other people's religious beliefs. But now they have been published. And it is important that the right of people to do so is defended. Otherwise all political debate in the West will be censored by Muslim radicals in the Middle East. Don't like Blair's Iraq policy? - call it racist and offensive to Muslims and get it stopped! Don't like the teaching of evolution in schools? Say it contradicts the Quran and get it banned! The Danes have a right to live their own lives in Denmark according to their own laws. Egyptians have a right to live their own lives in Egypt. It makes for a better world if the Danes do not censor the Egyptians and the Egyptians do not censor the Danes. Surely that is not unreasonable?

What everyone needs to remember is that YES there is Freedom of Speech and YES there is FREEDOM of Press BUT there HAS GOT TO BE A LINE. if there is no line what we will have are Societies clashing Religious Groups HATING each other and VIOLENCE well there will defiantly be Violence as people will become animals.

Actually evidence suggests otherwise. All religions have used the power of the state to oppress people they do not like. It is only in the modern West, once all major religions have accepted certain civilized values, that it has stopped. If you create a benefit to holding power - the right to suppress your opponents for instance - then religions will struggle to hold power. In the West people have demanded that religious groups resolve their disputes peacefully and through debate. The result is that religious hatred (and as it happens religious belief) has evaporated. You can look at any Middle Eastern country where that has not happened and see that everyone suffers if they do not hold onto power. In Saudi Arabia liberals are jailed. In Egypt Muslims are executed. Is this what you want in the UK?

The Line you could call it consideration or Respect. This is a trait that all people need and if this is something that we all disregard and abuse then YES we will be living like animals SAYING WHAT WE want even thought it maybe false.

I don't think animals live that way. And if it comes down to it, I think that is preferable to living in a society where if you say anything the Inquisition looks it over to decide if it is acceptable or not. The Australian state of Victoria went down the route of imposed a ban of Religious Vilification. The Muslim Council of Victoria supported the law, but now regret it and call for the law to be abolished. Because of course once the law was in place they sued some Christians, but the Christians sued them back and now everyone is suing everyone else. Let me ask you, as the Muslims of Europe are a minority, if such a law was passed in Europe, who would suffer the most - Christians or Muslims? Remember every time you say "There is only one God" you are vilifying Hindus. And every time you say "Muhammed is His Prophet" you are insulting Jews and Christians.

I think you ought to read Amir Butler's article on Victoria's experience. See http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CAD01.htm

So we must really think before we make any kind of statement.

Well yes and no. We ought to think before we insult the religious beliefs of others. But we ought to do it not because we are scared of violence - crime must be met by force and justice, not by appeasement - but because it is the civilised thing to do.

Further the RE publications of these cartoons was like pouring FUEL on a already fierce FIRE.

Except now the issue is not the cartoons, but whether Europeans will allow their own laws to be overturned by Islamic laws, their own public debates censored by radicals in the Middle East. NOW the issue is far more serious and the Danes should not back off.

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
islam will be stronger and victorious in the end inshallah
wasalam

[Christian_dove]

Except now the issue is not the cartoons, but whether Europeans will allow their own laws to be overturned by Islamic laws, their own public debates censored by radicals in the Middle East. NOW the issue is far more serious and the Danes should not back off.

Good points. I don't think neither the danish or the norwegians will back off. This is a case that Islam will never win. The riots that we see has nothing to do with the cartoons, the cartoons are merely the scapegoat and the bad excuse for these violent acts.

[Selising]

Better late than never I think. And now was a good time, because Iraq army had become so weak.
Yes, sure they need the oil. But they will pay money for it. Wars cost a lot of money so I don't think they would've attacked Saddam it if there were no expected financial gains for them.

I strongly beleive that US attacked Iraq not bcoz of Saddam, but the oil. A friend of mine went for a seminar(sort of) in USA 2 yrs back. She is not wearing hijab (seldom perform solah), so they didn't realise that there is a muslim malaysian in the group. One of the professor excitedly showed areas in Malaysia (via satelite) that have huge amount of oil. Will Malaysia be the next target? Nauzubillah

From that 2 weeks seminar she concluded that US just wants the oil.

US have the money to buy the oil? Yup most probably they have, but what if Saddam don't want to sell it to them? Is there any possibility that was the reason of attacking Iraq?

They hate Saddam bcoz he is not practising Islam? Why on earth must they worry so much about Saddam faith and practise?

[songinwind]

salam
yes i am and looking at my profile wouldnt hurt either, i dont get what ur saying about online quran but i wanted to copy and paste the verse since i didnt know the exact verse word by word

That was a misunderstanding,,,on my part,,,and rudeness gets us no where,,I am new here,,,and haven't been looking at profiles,,Allah Hafiz

[mizan_aliashraf]

salam
islam will be stronger and victorious in the end inshallah
wasalam

Inshallah, we will come out on top
Ameen
Wassalam

[Sis786]

The government does not have responsibility to the evil deeds of a vicious few. If anyone kills an innocent Danish person the sole responsibility lies with the murderers, not with the Danish government. All governments must ensure their country and people are safe. But they also must uphold civilised values - and freedom of speech is an important value. So the solution is to track down and punish anyone who kills Danish civilians. The Danish government has not put anyone at risk - the entire responsibility here lies with the radical Muslims - those who lied about what the cartoons said, those who incited violence, and if there are any killings (and there have been) those who kill. I would be interested in any interpretation of Islamic law that says the blame for murder lies with anyone other than the murderer.

Those cartoons should not have been published, perhaps, but now they have been. And because they have been it is not an issue of politeness anymore, but one of defending fundamental rights - the right for Danish people to say what they like in Denmark, the right of the Danes to live their own lives in peace, the right of every nation to its own laws and customs and culture. Now it has become important not to give in to bullying. If the Danes do not then their entire public and political space will be dominated by the regimes of Egypt and Pakistan.

This raises the question then "Why was the Taliban and Afghanistan attacked for the evil deeds that other men that weren’t even Afghans did"

As for the Danes not giving in. Oh come on you are saying that its best that people are killed, embassies are burnt and demonstrations worldwide continue. The only people that have really suffered are the Danes and this included the innocent ones. There country flag has been continuously burnt, There products have been boycotted, the lives of those Danes living in Muslim countries have been put at risk and FOR WHAT! Freedom of Speech

Don’t make me laugh!!

[HeiGou]

This raises the question then "Why was the Taliban and Afghanistan attacked for the evil deeds that other men that weren’t even Afghans did"

Well they were not. They were attacked for sheltering Osama Bin Laden and refusing to hand him over. The US, to my knowledge, never said that the Afghans were guilty of 9-11, just that they helped OBL, they knowingly hid him from justice, and they would not hand him over.

As for the Danes not giving in. Oh come on you are saying that its best that people are killed, embassies are burnt and demonstrations worldwide continue.

No I am not. I am saying it is best that people behave in a decent and peaceful manner. Which means those cartoons should not have been published. But even more importantly those embassies should not have been burnt. However, now the cartoons have been published, and the Danes cannot afford to let foreign radicals determine what is or is not acceptable in Danish society.

The only people that have really suffered are the Danes and this included the innocent ones. There country flag has been continuously burnt, There products have been boycotted, the lives of those Danes living in Muslim countries have been put at risk and FOR WHAT! Freedom of Speech

Don’t make me laugh!!

Well I think that some Muslims have suffered hurt feelings, but the only people to have suffered in a material sense are Danes. And it has been for the Freedom of Speech but also it has become a defence of Danish rights and sovereignty. It is worth defending and, frankly, it is worth paying the price. Non-Muslims cannot let Muslims, especially foreign Muslims, determine what is or is not acceptable in their own countries. After all what is the next step - will Danish embassies burn if Denmark does not include Quranic lessons in every school? If Denmark agrees to trade with Israel? In your home you can do whatever you like. In my home what I do is none of your business. That is an important principle.

[Sis786]

Well they were not. They were attacked for sheltering Osama Bin Laden and refusing to hand him over. The US, to my knowledge, never said that the Afghans were guilty of 9-11, just that they helped OBL, they knowingly hid him from justice, and they would not hand him over.

No what most people get wrong is that the Taliban asked for proof that Osama Bin Laden was behind the attacks in America and that they would assist with the case. Even today many many people are confused as to what happened in America on 9/11 i dont need to run though the conspiracies im sure your aware of them. I mean most importantly we need to note the fact that some American Soldiers were already deployed to Afghanistan prior to the 9/11 attacks.

No I am not. I am saying it is best that people behave in a decent and peaceful manner. Which means those cartoons should not have been published. But even more importantly those embassies should not have been burnt. However, now the cartoons have been published, and the Danes cannot afford to let foreign radicals determine what is or is not acceptable in Danish society.

I agree with you dont get me wrong im not saying that the burning of those embassy’s are right BUT i as a Muslim can understand the frustration and anger of my fellow Muslims. Unfortunately those attacks have happen in countries where people are only use to seeing violence and their Government dont represent them fully. However i still feel that the Danish Government have not handled this situation the best they could have. I mean the France Newspaper sacked the Editor and apologised formally and i believe the Government have also taken these steps. The Danish Government need to put their peoples safety first.

Well I think that some Muslims have suffered hurt feelings, but the only people to have suffered in a material sense are Danes. And it has been for the Freedom of Speech but also it has become a defence of Danish rights and sovereignty. It is worth defending and, frankly, it is worth paying the price. Non-Muslims cannot let Muslims, especially foreign Muslims, determine what is or is not acceptable in their own countries. After all what is the next step - will Danish embassies burn if Denmark does not include Quranic lessons in every school? If Denmark agrees to trade with Israel? In your home you can do whatever you like. In my home what I do is none of your business. That is an important principle.

Ok well if this freedom of speech then those Protestors in London on Friday with there billboards are also right in what they were saying. Is that what you are trying to say.

We live in a society that we must respect each other IM NOT SAYING that Freedom of Speech should be banned BUT PLEASE TRY TO EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT WAS THE MEANING BEHIND THOSE CARTOONS! You will come to the conclusion that these CARTOONS WERE ONLY MADE FOR THE PURPOSE OF DEGRADING A WHOLE RELIGION.

[HeiGou]

No what most people get wrong is that the Taliban asked for proof that Osama Bin Laden was behind the attacks in America and that they would assist with the case. Even today many many people are confused as to what happened in America on 9/11 i dont need to run though the conspiracies im sure your aware of them. I mean most importantly we need to note the fact that some American Soldiers were already deployed to Afghanistan prior to the 9/11 attacks.

I do not deny that they asked for proof. There was no sign they would have handed him over to the Americans anyway. They did talk about handing him over to the Saudis. But it does not matter. The Americans were very angry, they knew he did it, he did do it, the Taliban refused to hand him over. It may not have been right, but there was no other options apart from invasion or co-operation from the Taliban. The Taliban chose the wrong option.

The fact that many people are confused is not an excuse for not pursuing those responsible. Anyone can invent some lies. OBL has admitted it.

Really? Where were they deployed and who says so?

I agree with you dont get me wrong im not saying that the burning of those embassy’s are right BUT i as a Muslim can understand the frustration and anger of my fellow Muslims. Unfortunately those attacks have happen in countries where people are only use to seeing violence and their Government dont represent them fully. However i still feel that the Danish Government have not handled this situation the best they could have. I mean the France Newspaper sacked the Editor and apologised formally and i believe the Government have also taken these steps. The Danish Government need to put their peoples safety first.

I am not saying you are saying it is right. I feel pity for the Muslims of the Middle East given their governments. And probably the Danish government has not handled the situation as well as they could have. But now the cartoons have been published. The French government did not sack that editor and it was wrong of the owner, in my opinion, to have done so. I am unaware that the French government has apologised. The Danish government does not need to put the safety of its civilians first - that would only create a situation where anyone could make the Danes do whatever they like by holding a Danish person hostage or threatening to kill one. They need to defend their rights, their freedom and their way of life. If Danes die, so be it. The blame belongs to the murderers and the murderers alone. The issues are much larger now.

Ok well if this freedom of speech then those Protestors in London on Friday with there billboards are also right in what they were saying. Is that what you are trying to say.

Umm, no. You may not incite murder. Free speech stops at the killing of living people. Generally speaking I am all in favor of people protesting, but they may not urge others to commit violent crimes if there is a chance that such crimes will be carried out.

We live in a society that we must respect each other IM NOT SAYING that Freedom of Speech should be banned BUT PLEASE TRY TO EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT WAS THE MEANING BEHIND THOSE CARTOONS! You will come to the conclusion that these CARTOONS WERE ONLY MADE FOR THE PURPOSE OF DEGRADING A WHOLE RELIGION.

I do not know what the meaning was apart from what has been said - that the newspaper was determined to test the limits of free speech and to see if the Danish people would be intimidated by threats. I understand that you do not want free speech banned, but you must be able to see that if you let foreigners tell you what you can and cannot say, you will not have any free speech in the end. If the rioters get their way what else will they demand stopped? Free discussion of Islam? Danish foreign policy in Afghanistan and Iraq? Where do you draw the line? The issue is now the existence of any sort of freedom in Denmark. Either the Danes determine what Danes can and cannot do in Denmark or rioters in Egypt do. Which do you think the Danes ought to choose?

[Sis786]

I do not deny that they asked for proof. There was no sign they would have handed him over to the Americans anyway. They did talk about handing him over to the Saudis. But it does not matter. The Americans were very angry, they knew he did it, he did do it, the Taliban refused to hand him over. It may not have been right, but there was no other options apart from invasion or co-operation from the Taliban. The Taliban chose the wrong option.

The fact that many people are confused is not an excuse for not pursuing those responsible. Anyone can invent some lies. OBL has admitted it.

Really? Where were they deployed and who says so??

AFGHANISTAN
The prime objective of the war on Afghanistan was supposedly to capture Osama bin Laden, the man allegedly responsible for the attacks on 11 September 2001, and destroy his militant network, al-Qaeda. In reality, the US and UK launched a full scale military deployment to the region a few months before the attacks on America, and the allies began the invasion of Afghanistan a few weeks before 9/11. The true sequence of events is freely available to anybody who bothers to check the relevent media coverage or official records. The cause-effect relationship between the US/UK attacks on the Middle East and the retaliatory attacks of 9/11 has been reversed in the minds of the public by the greatest campaign of political and media propaganda in the history of Western democracy. Osama bin Laden was not found, al-Qaeda remains operational, and the Afghan warlords are as powerful as ever. The main benefit was the massive US-led oil pipeline project, planned since 1998, which was immediately approved by the new regime installed by the US government.
This is a section taken out of a AMERCIAN newspaper.
Ok the Taliban were willing to comprimise with the Saudis. Surely this was the better move than sending Hundreds and Thousands of Troops into Afghanistan Killing Hundreds and Thousands of civillians and risking the lives of your Soliders. Surely!

You have to bear in mind that America 3 weeks after the attack in Amercia were ready for War. This is no small scale War. How an earth did they get ready within 3 weeks!

I am not saying you are saying it is right. I feel pity for the Muslims of the Middle East given their governments. And probably the Danish government has not handled the situation as well as they could have. But now the cartoons have been published. The French government did not sack that editor and it was wrong of the owner, in my opinion, to have done so. I am unaware that the French government has apologised. The Danish government does not need to put the safety of its civilians first - that would only create a situation where anyone could make the Danes do whatever they like by holding a Danish person hostage or threatening to kill one. They need to defend their rights, their freedom and their way of life. If Danes die, so be it. The blame belongs to the murderers and the murderers alone. The issues are much larger now.?

I agree! Completley.

Umm, no. You may not incite murder. Free speech stops at the killing of living people. Generally speaking I am all in favor of people protesting, but they may not urge others to commit violent crimes if there is a chance that such crimes will be carried out.?

You feel that calling every single Muslim a terroist by showing our Prophet SAW as one is Freedom of Speech YET when we carry out Terroism we are inciting Murder!Hmmmmm

You see many Muslims will come to the throery that By showing the Prophet SAW as a Murderer and Terroist its attack on all Muslims as we follow the teachings of the Prophet SAW. Sooo if thats what you think THEN thats what you will get.

The Cartoons were wrong FULL STOP, the Danish Goverment need to acknoledge that this TYPE of Freedom of Speech would have only led them to this situation where people around the world would take the Law into thier own hands. You cant do an act and then NOT accept reponsibilty. The Goverment have given the PRESS Freedom of Speech and this has no boudaries. Well then in that case what they will get is a clash and the people on the other side will also take the law in thier hands and not use diplomatic means.

I do not know what the meaning was apart from what has been said - that the newspaper was determined to test the limits of free speech and to see if the Danish people would be intimidated by threats. I understand that you do not want free speech banned, but you must be able to see that if you let foreigners tell you what you can and cannot say, you will not have any free speech in the end. If the rioters get their way what else will they demand stopped? Free discussion of Islam? Danish foreign policy in Afghanistan and Iraq? Where do you draw the line? The issue is now the existence of any sort of freedom in Denmark. Either the Danes determine what Danes can and cannot do in Denmark or rioters in Egypt do. Which do you think the Danes ought to choose?

Hmm well then they got what they wanted THREATS AND VIOLENCE. Surely there must be another way to do this. Instead of Stoooping so low and diplicting a man whom we regard MORE than our lives. With 87% of the Danish people being against the Cartoons I wonder which "Danish People" they were testing and representing?

[HeiGou]

Ok the Taliban were willing to comprimise with the Saudis. Surely this was the better move than sending Hundreds and Thousands of Troops into Afghanistan Killing Hundreds and Thousands of civillians and risking the lives of your Soliders. Surely!

Well no. At least I do not think so. Someone attacked America. Something had to be done. This was something. In the circumstances what else could have been done?

The propaganda effects of the invasion of Afghanistan are still not certain. It is clear that the Afghans have voted in free-ish and fair-ish elections. It is clear that the Afghans have not risen against the Americans as they did against the British and the Russia. It is clear that they have not risen as the Iraqis have. I think America is winning the propaganda war in Afghanistan.

You have to bear in mind that America 3 weeks after the attack in Amercia were ready for War. This is no small scale War. How an earth did they get ready within 3 weeks!

They did not send many soldiers - just airplanes. It does not surprise me.

You feel that calling every single Muslim a terroist by showing our Prophet SAW as one is Freedom of Speech YET when we carry out Terroism we are inciting Murder!Hmmmmm

I don't think that it was calling every single Muslim a terrorist. It was calling Muhammed one - at least that does seem to be the meaning of the bomb in the turban one. And that was wrong. But it has been done now and there is no changing that.

As for terrorism, well, when people carry out terrorism it is a little more than incitement to murder. And yet there is a vast difference between insulting Muhammed and calling for a living breathing person to be beheaded. One is insulting to a person who died 1400 years ago, but the other is calling for a crime to be committed against the living.

You see many Muslims will come to the throery that By showing the Prophet SAW as a Murderer and Terroist its attack on all Muslims as we follow the teachings of the Prophet SAW. Sooo if thats what you think THEN thats what you will get.

I do not think that was the implication of the cartoon and if that is what Muslims think, well, what can be done? It was wrong to insult someone else's deepest religious feelings. But it has been done. The Danes cannot allow their laws to be determined by angry Egyptians.

The Cartoons were wrong FULL STOP, the Danish Goverment need to acknoledge that this TYPE of Freedom of Speech would have only led them to this situation where people around the world would take the Law into thier own hands.

They may well do so, but they cannot legitimate people around the world taking the law into their own hands. The Danish government only needs to acknowledge that the law must be obeyed. Which it has - except by a few who have killed a priest in Turkey and burnt some buildings.

You cant do an act and then NOT accept reponsibilty. The Goverment have given the PRESS Freedom of Speech and this has no boudaries. Well then in that case what they will get is a clash and the people on the other side will also take the law in thier hands and not use diplomatic means.

Well you can, but you should not do so. I agree. The press does have boundaries. There is no unlimited freedom of speech. But those boundaries must be determined by Danish people and not Syrians. If people break the law it is their fault for which they will have to account in this world and the next. If the Danes are obeying the law, they bear no responsibility for what other people do.

Hmm well then they got what they wanted THREATS AND VIOLENCE. Surely there must be another way to do this. Instead of Stoooping so low and diplicting a man whom we regard MORE than our lives. With 87% of the Danish people being against the Cartoons I wonder which "Danish People" they were testing and representing?

There must be a better way. But in the end it is a question of who determines Danish freedoms - the Danes or the population of the Middle East. Those cartoons were offensive, but the Danes have every right to do what they like in their own country.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Free speach huh?
Ok, now if from what I have heard is true, I should have the right to say: "all (insert followers of certain religion here) are all (insert expletive content here)". However, I don't. for three reasons:
A) I respect all religions - yes even scientology
B) I'm not stupid
C) If I did, i'd get shot. Or worse, shot twice. In simpler terms: i'd expect to get some retaliation and I would have no right to complain, if i did i'd get shot...again :(

I'm not saying I am against freedom of speech. I am saying, you have to use it carefully and think of the consequences. e.g. I don't go bad-mouthing my mother because I know it will offend her and she probably won't cook my chapatis.

[Sis786]

Well no. At least I do not think so. Someone attacked America. Something had to be done. This was something. In the circumstances what else could have been done?

The propaganda effects of the invasion of Afghanistan are still not certain. It is clear that the Afghans have voted in free-ish and fair-ish elections. It is clear that the Afghans have not risen against the Americans as they did against the British and the Russia. It is clear that they have not risen as the Iraqis have. I think America is winning the propaganda war in Afghanistan.

Thats what the media might be stating HOW CAN YOU WIN A WAR WHEN THE PERSON YOU STARTED THE WAR FOR HAS NOT BEEN CAPTURED. Has the War on Afghanistan helped resolve problems of Terrosim NO and a very big NO. Instead it has led more people to think that Amercia has othe rmotives and a complete hate for ISLAM. Why have more people been pulled into Terroism since 9/11 THAT question needs to be asked. COme on before 9/11 had we really heard abour Terroism.

How can you say Afghanistan has benefited. Do you think the Mother that lost her son cares about THE FREE ELECTIONS. Do you think the Orphan whos parents died CARES ABOUT FREE ELECTIONS.

They did not send many soldiers - just airplanes. It does not surprise me.

I think you need to re-check your information they send troops, made allies with a certain group in Afghanistan. This couldnt have been done in 3 weeks

I don't think that it was calling every single Muslim a terrorist. It was calling Muhammed one - at least that does seem to be the meaning of the bomb in the turban one. And that was wrong. But it has been done now and there is no changing that.

Muhammed SAW is a perfect example of a Muslim. We follow the Quran the word of God and the Sunnah of Muhammed Saw. Meaning the example of the Prophet SAW. So this was a very clever way of saying that ALL and i repeat ALL Muslims are terroist. The Danish people knew exactly what they were doing. Why not just say a Muslim is a terroist. This Cartoon wouldnt have caused soo much offence if it was JUST of a Muslim. Why choose a Man that lived 1400 years ago. Like i said this was done with ONE intention and that was to OFFEND ALL muslims.

As for terrorism, well, when people carry out terrorism it is a little more than incitement to murder. And yet there is a vast difference between insulting Muhammed and calling for a living breathing person to be beheaded. One is insulting to a person who died 1400 years ago, but the other is calling for a crime to be committed against the living.

Well ok so whats the point of any justice. I mean soo what if a man killed a child. the Child is dead FULL Stop why punish the living. Let Rapist and Murders walk free i mean what they done has been done. :?

Well you can, but you should not do so. I agree. The press does have boundaries. There is no unlimited freedom of speech. But those boundaries must be determined by Danish people and not Syrians. If people break the law it is their fault for which they will have to account in this world and the next. If the Danes are obeying the law, they bear no responsibility for what other people do.

Yes then if this is the case then the DANISH should only offend the DANISH and not do an act that they KNEW would offend a man in Syria and a women in britain and a man from Pakistan BASICALLY ALL MUSLIMS.

[Ghazi]

Salaam

With The U.S. and U.K stated that they're in a war with terror, shouldn't america and the uk look into their own country, for example here in the uk you got 'yobs' who terrorise their neighbours their terrorists cause people are terrified of them, I don't see scotland yard doing nothing to them.

[mizan_aliashraf]

Salam
That was a very good point. While the UK have been busy fighting with the US, they have let their own backyard go down the drain. Their own people are sick to death of the policies of this government and they want to see a change sooner rather than later.
We have seen ASBOs, robbery, gun?knife crime go up, as well as racist, homophobic and arsonist attacks increase. When will this government sort out its own mess?
Wassalam

[Sis786]

Perfect example was Katrina. Americans were busy "Building" other states and countries YET couldnt deal with the situation that effected them.

[HeiGou]

:sl:
Free speach huh?
Ok, now if from what I have heard is true, I should have the right to say: "all (insert followers of certain religion here) are all (insert expletive content here)". However, I don't. for three reasons:
A) I respect all religions - yes even scientology
B) I'm not stupid
C) If I did, i'd get shot. Or worse, shot twice. In simpler terms: i'd expect to get some retaliation and I would have no right to complain, if i did i'd get shot...again :(

I'm not saying I am against freedom of speech. I am saying, you have to use it carefully and think of the consequences. e.g. I don't go bad-mouthing my mother because I know it will offend her and she probably won't cook my chapatis.

As I understand it you do have a right to say "all (insert followers of certain religion here) are all (insert expletive content here)" unless it so happens that all followers of a certain religion are also of a certain race - the Europeans having compromised enough to ban racial vilification. You shouldn't say it, anymore than the Danish papers should have said it, but you do have the right to do so in the West.

It is a good thing you respect all religions. I expect it is difficult to do so for Muslims because they tend to think all other religions are wrong to varying degrees. It is hard to respect Hinduism if you think Hindus are fools for worshipping idols and will all go to Hell. It is hard to respect Judaism and Christianity if you think they are founded on lies. But it is not important.

Who would shoot you if you said something bad about Buddha?

I agree you should think carefully about what you say before you say it. And it is wrong to go around insulting other peoples' religions. But it has been said now and the issue is much bigger for the Danes. It comes down to who is going to make the law in Denmark - the Danes or the Pakistanis.

[HeiGou]

Thats what the media might be stating HOW CAN YOU WIN A WAR WHEN THE PERSON YOU STARTED THE WAR FOR HAS NOT BEEN CAPTURED. Has the War on Afghanistan helped resolve problems of Terrosim NO and a very big NO. Instead it has led more people to think that Amercia has othe rmotives and a complete hate for ISLAM. Why have more people been pulled into Terroism since 9/11 THAT question needs to be asked. COme on before 9/11 had we really heard abour Terroism.

I said the propaganda war. And as it happens America seems to be winning the other sort of war too - OBL called for a ceasefire the other day. Maybe he is tired of living in caves and is scared. Maybe not. I agree that the war in Afghanistan has not helped resolve the problem of terrorism, but it has probably made the problem smaller. OBL said the West was weak. If he was still sitting in Kabul in a nice big office demanding "proof" still the Americans would look weak. There was a crime and there was a response. All the people who think the Americans have other motive thought so beforehand. All the people who think the Americans hate Islam would have anyway. I am unconvinced more people have been pulled into terrorism since 9-11, at least in Afghanistan. Maybe in Iraq.

How can you say Afghanistan has benefited. Do you think the Mother that lost her son cares about THE FREE ELECTIONS. Do you think the Orphan whos parents died CARES ABOUT FREE ELECTIONS.

I am not sure I said Afghanistan has benefited. But yes, I think the Mother who has lost her son cares about elections. I think the orphan also cares about elections. Anyone who wants the violence to end, and the victims probably do, would want to resolve all problems in a peaceful way. Whatever else has happened Afghanistan is relatively peaceful.

I think you need to re-check your information they send troops, made allies with a certain group in Afghanistan. This couldnt have been done in 3 weeks

I am sure they were talking to the Northern Alliance beforehand - they were the legal government of Afghanistan after all. And they did not send many troops. I do not see it would have been hard.

Muhammed SAW is a perfect example of a Muslim. We follow the Quran the word of God and the Sunnah of Muhammed Saw. Meaning the example of the Prophet SAW. So this was a very clever way of saying that ALL and i repeat ALL Muslims are terroist. The Danish people knew exactly what they were doing. Why not just say a Muslim is a terroist. This Cartoon wouldnt have caused soo much offence if it was JUST of a Muslim. Why choose a Man that lived 1400 years ago. Like i said this was done with ONE intention and that was to OFFEND ALL muslims.

You have gone from a picture about one man, to a claim about all Muslims. From a claim about the intentions of twelve men to the intentions of all Danes. How is this possible? How do you know such things? I doubt that anyone saw this result much less intended it.

Well ok so whats the point of any justice. I mean soo what if a man killed a child. the Child is dead FULL Stop why punish the living. Let Rapist and Murders walk free i mean what they done has been done. :?

To deter others. To achieve a rough sort of justice.

Yes then if this is the case then the DANISH should only offend the DANISH and not do an act that they KNEW would offend a man in Syria and a women in britain and a man from Pakistan BASICALLY ALL MUSLIMS.

How did the man from Syria and the woman in Britain and the man from Pakistan even hear about these cartoons? If Danish radicals had not taken these twelve - and a few more that they produced from somewhere - to the Middle East, no one would have heard of them. The paper was not printed in Syria, nor in Britain, nor in Pakistan. They did, as it happens, do something for Danes, and Danes alone. But the problem remains - where do you draw the line? Do the Danes want to teach evolution? Should they stop if that offends some American Christians? Do the Danes want to support the Peace Process? Should they stop if that offends some Jews? Those cartoons were rude. But the Danes cannot give in to bullying.

[HeiGou]

That was a very good point. While the UK have been busy fighting with the US, they have let their own backyard go down the drain. Their own people are sick to death of the policies of this government and they want to see a change sooner rather than later.
We have seen ASBOs, robbery, gun?knife crime go up, as well as racist, homophobic and arsonist attacks increase. When will this government sort out its own mess?

I agree that life in most of Britain is fairly grim. The present government has done something about it with ASBOs (that I hear have worked). But that is all beside the point. That makes life miserable for many people, but it is random and unco-ordinated. Terrorism is aimed at the British way of life. It is highly organised and it is aimed at a specific political purpose. If Britain opposes that purpose it must fight the terror. One is unfortunate but in the long run meaningless. The other is far more dangerous.

As for people being sick to death of the government's policies, I do not know if that is true. I expect they are. But from what I hear what people are most sick to death of is the weakness of the British government - see the outrage over those protests. People are demanding a tougher line against terror, and to be honest, Muslims. You can see this in the BNP leader's trial. A jury of twelve people could not agree he was a dangerous racist. And why? He is smart. He picks on Muslims now, not on Black people as a whole. He said that one day Britain would be attacked by home-born Muslim radicals. That is what he was arrested for. Well Britain has been. Go figure. The BNP is slowly becoming mainstream. I think this is a bad thing and it ought to be stopped. How is it going to be stopped?

[Sis786]

I said the propaganda war. And as it happens America seems to be winning the other sort of war too - OBL called for a ceasefire the other day. Maybe he is tired of living in caves and is scared. Maybe not. I agree that the war in Afghanistan has not helped resolve the problem of terrorism, but it has probably made the problem smaller. OBL said the West was weak. If he was still sitting in Kabul in a nice big office demanding "proof" still the Americans would look weak. There was a crime and there was a response. All the people who think the Americans have other motive thought so beforehand. All the people who think the Americans hate Islam would have anyway. I am unconvinced more people have been pulled into terrorism since 9-11, at least in Afghanistan. Maybe in Iraq.

You think that America are winning the war. They have caused havoic all over the world. I have not seen ONE muslim who thinks good of the Amercian Goverment NOT ONE! They have spent sooo much money on War that there own people are suffering i.e THE PEOPLE THAT SUFFERED DURING KATRINA

I am not sure I said Afghanistan has benefited. But yes, I think the Mother who has lost her son cares about elections. I think the orphan also cares about elections. Anyone who wants the violence to end, and the victims probably do, would want to resolve all problems in a peaceful way. Whatever else has happened Afghanistan is relatively peaceful.

Whats the point of voting THE GOVERMENT IS AMERCIA. You might believe that they are THERE for the Afghans i Dont. So America spent all there money and effort to start a war JUST so the Afghans can have independent ELECTIONS. :X

I am sure they were talking to the Northern Alliance beforehand - they were the legal government of Afghanistan after all. And they did not send many troops. I do not see it would have been hard.

Hmm i will leave that For you to decide. Dont forget When Yvonne Riddley was captured by the Taliban SOOO many stories were around the press she was raped she was treated badly so on and so on. When she came out and said Well NO in fact i was called Sister and she reverted to ISLAM. The Press didnt wanna know!

You have gone from a picture about one man, to a claim about all Muslims. From a claim about the intentions of twelve men to the intentions of all Danes. How is this possible? How do you know such things? I doubt that anyone saw this result much less intended it.

AGAIN you are wrong dont you think there was a reason the DANES chose to show a picture of a man that walked the earth 1400 years ago. WHY not just make a pic of any muslim one that is living one that IS a terroist WHY Muhammed PBHU

To deter others. To achieve a rough sort of justice.

Well then WHY dont you feel that the Men that CROSS the line of Freedom of Speech should be punished WORDS can lead to bloodshed as it has done in this instance

How did the man from Syria and the woman in Britain and the man from Pakistan even hear about these cartoons? If Danish radicals had not taken these twelve - and a few more that they produced from somewhere - to the Middle East, no one would have heard of them. The paper was not printed in Syria, nor in Britain, nor in Pakistan. They did, as it happens, do something for Danes, and Danes alone. But the problem remains - where do you draw the line? Do the Danes want to teach evolution? Should they stop if that offends some American Christians? Do the Danes want to support the Peace Process? Should they stop if that offends some Jews? Those cartoons were rude. But the Danes cannot give in to bullying.

They heard about it because LIKE i said ONE person WHOM we ALL regard MORE than OUR life is Muhammed PBHU. Every Muslim heard about it as WE ALL KNOW AND LOVE THE PROPHET PBHU.

[HeiGou]

You think that America are winning the war. They have caused havoic all over the world. I have not seen ONE muslim who thinks good of the Amercian Goverment NOT ONE! They have spent sooo much money on War that there own people are suffering i.e THE PEOPLE THAT SUFFERED DURING KATRINA

I think arguing about the war is off topic. America has reserves of support in Afghanistan and even in Iraq. As I said it is noticeable that the Afghans, who fought the Soviets, have not yet fought the Americans in any real way. You think the war has anything to do with Katrina? Well that is even more off topic.

Whats the point of voting THE GOVERMENT IS AMERCIA. You might believe that they are THERE for the Afghans i Dont. So America spent all there money and effort to start a war JUST so the Afghans can have independent ELECTIONS.

I never said they were there for the Afghans. The Americans clearly did not start the war for that purpose. It is a side effect. The Afghans think there is a point because they voted. And they have not yet risen in force against the Americans. They have about ten thousand soldiers in Afghanistan. The Soviets had many more and still lost. No one is even shooting much at the Americans.

AGAIN you are wrong dont you think there was a reason the DANES chose to show a picture of a man that walked the earth 1400 years ago. WHY not just make a pic of any muslim one that is living one that IS a terroist WHY Muhammed PBHU

Yes - some woman could not get any illustrator for her book on Muhammed because they were all too scared of fatwas. So the newspaper decided to see how scared people were.

Well then WHY dont you feel that the Men that CROSS the line of Freedom of Speech should be punished WORDS can lead to bloodshed as it has done in this instance

There is no law in Denmark making this illegal and I do not think there ought to be. It is rude, not criminal. Words may lead to bloodshed, but that would be a sin and a crime in my opinion and the guilt would lie with the guilty, not the Danes. What line has any Dane crossed? They have not broken the law, they have not gone to the Middle East and offended people. They have stayed at home and people have disrespected their right to live their own lives their own way.

They heard about it because LIKE i said ONE person WHOM we ALL regard MORE than OUR life is Muhammed PBHU. Every Muslim heard about it as WE ALL KNOW AND LOVE THE PROPHET PBHU.

You all may know and love Muhammed, but you do not know and love Danish newspapers. Someone, a few Danish radicals it seems, decided to make trouble by taking these pictures and showing them around. The Egyptian government decided to make an issue of it. If they had not no one would have heard of it.

THe bottom line remains - the Danes have a right to be respected in their own country. It was rude to publish such pictures, but now the Danes cannot allow themselves to be bullied.

[Sis786]

Ok we going around in circles MY POINT is THOSE who published these pictures KNEW the outcome like you said this was a test to see how far they can push thier FREEDOM OF SPEECH! Its clear that they went tooo far. I also agree that some of the Demonstrations went too far too and dont agree with that. HOWEVER i dont believe that those that did these acts DID not predict this outcome I CAN NEVER BELIIVE THAT. They chose Muahmmed pbhu FOR ONE REASON, And that was to OFFEND ALL Muslims and not just those in Denmark.

As for the Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Speech has to have boundries.

As for the bullying part! These Protestors are NOT SAYING BANN FREEDOM of Speech, But why is it that WHEN WE MUSLIMS use Freedom of Speech we are seen as TERROIST AND INCITING MURDER?

This clearly is another attack on Muslims and THIS time they TOOK a Step TOO FAR!

[TSpot]

They heard about it because LIKE i said ONE person WHOM we ALL regard MORE than OUR life is Muhammed PBHU. Every Muslim heard about it as WE ALL KNOW AND LOVE THE PROPHET PBHU.

Then why did your violence not start when they were published? It was a relatively small incident--hugely insensitive, but small. It was blown up (and to a degree falsified) by radical Muslims for their own POLITICAL purposes. You can continue to support violence all day long and continue your feeble attempt to relate everything back to the United States, but it is silly. The violence is wrong.

[TSpot]

These Protestors are NOT SAYING BANN FREEDOM of Speech, But why is it that WHEN WE MUSLIMS use Freedom of Speech we are seen as TERROIST AND INCITING MURDER?

There is no problems with Muslims using freedom of speech. There was a large, peaceful demonstration in Denmark yesterday. However, burning and looting embassies is violence, not speech.

[Sis786]

There is no problems with Muslims using freedom of speech. There was a large, peaceful demonstration in Denmark yesterday. However, burning and looting embassies is violence, not speech.

I totally agree with you BUT when genrally you say something about Terroism or show support for the Palestine people you are tainted with the same brush. Example Tony Blairs Sister on Law, was on the Islam Channel that day when they were doing a fundraising for Palestine she said that when she went with "Interpal" The Charity to Palestine she had a call from the Israel saying that they did NOT like her helping the "Terrosit". She went to help children.

Another is Hamas or the Iran President. Both have been tainted BUT all they have done is exercise THIER FREEDOM SPEECH!

As for the violence not starting when they were published to be honest at the time many did not know. WE all have the right to know what is being said anout our Beloved Prophet PBHU and when we did hear we re-acted SOME worse then others.

[Christian_dove]

The fact is that these cartoons have been published earlier by several other norwegian newspapers. But noone could care less, it happened a long time ago, and norwegian muslims, moderate and collected as they may be, didn't bother to react. Until the danish imams went to egypt to tell their lies. This is one of the images they showed other imams, claiming it is a man offending Muhammad:

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=301971

The fact is, this is a french man in a squeel-like-a-pig contest, and has nothing to do with Muhammad.

«Franskmannen Jacques Barrot var neppe klar over at han ville bli forvekslet med en profet, da han sist sommer spente et lyserødt grisetryne rundt ansiktet og hylte som et svin»

"The frenchman Jaques Barrot was probably unaware of the fact that he would be mistaken for being a prophet when he last summer put a pinkish hog mask on and squeeled like a pig."

The story says nothing in regards to how he did in the competition...

[HeiGou]

Ok we going around in circles MY POINT is THOSE who published these pictures KNEW the outcome like you said this was a test to see how far they can push thier FREEDOM OF SPEECH! Its clear that they went tooo far. I also agree that some of the Demonstrations went too far too and dont agree with that. HOWEVER i dont believe that those that did these acts DID not predict this outcome I CAN NEVER BELIIVE THAT. They chose Muahmmed pbhu FOR ONE REASON, And that was to OFFEND ALL Muslims and not just those in Denmark.

Who could have forseen this? And much worse is published on line and elsewhere every day. I would direct you to some websites, but perhaps that is not a good idea.

As for the Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Speech has to have boundries.

I accept that, but I think it is important that in Denmark it is the Danes that determine those boundaries.

As for the bullying part! These Protestors are NOT SAYING BANN FREEDOM of Speech, But why is it that WHEN WE MUSLIMS use Freedom of Speech we are seen as TERROIST AND INCITING MURDER?

Well when you use your freedom of speech in a way that does not incite murder or terrorism I see nothing wrong. So far you have put your case strongly but have not called for my head to be cut off. I have no problem with that and would expect no less.

As for what the protestors are saying, what they are demanding is that they ought to be the ones that determine what Denmark does or does not publish. And as long as they do so peacefully that is fine with me. But in the end it is important that the Danes are the ones that determine what Danes can and cannot do. Not Egyptians. If the Danes cannot publish anything that upsets some foreigners, essentially they cannot publish anything at all. What if the Chinese insist that they censor the film "Memoirs of a Geisha"? If the Israelis demand that the supporters of the Oslo Accords be jailed? Where does it end? Respect is a two way street.

This clearly is another attack on Muslims and THIS time they TOOK a Step TOO FAR!

Perhaps, but where will it end? People have been telling me for over a year now that there are too many Muslims in the West and they need to go. All of them. Even from sensible people as a general rule, not extremists. The tide of public opinion is slowly turning and it is not turning towards your end of society. I have said, any number of times, that it is not like it was 50 years ago. It is like it was in 1491. And what happened in 1492? Even the Guardian was shocked by these protests.

So my question to you is simple - to live together as Muslims and non-Muslims there needs to be mutual respect. Or not. I accept these cartoons were offensive, but there are rules in any society you should obey. Calling for more 7-7 attacks is unacceptable. As is dressing as a suicide bomber. Muslims have offended and scared the majority of the population in the West. There need to be efforts made to repair those bridges and restore relations. These protests, through their violence and rejection of the West, are not helping. If you choose the "or not" option, be aware of what that might mean. I would prefer a peaceful, tolerant, multicultural West.

[Sis786]

The fact is that these cartoons have been published earlier by several other norwegian newspapers. But noone could care less, it happened a long time ago, and norwegian muslims, moderate and collected as they may be, didn't bother to react .

I have not seen this picture before and therefore cannot comment on it. BUT I CAN reassure you no Muslim would have "Care less" as you mentioned, It was that most Muslims were not made aware of it. Once we knew We responded, AND no one has mentioned that STUPID TWAT in your Picture, We are angry about what we have seen THE CARTOONS

[Christian_dove]

I have not seen this picture before and therefore cannot comment on it. BUT I CAN reassure you no Muslim would have "Care less" as you mentioned, It was that most Muslims were not made aware of it. Once we knew We responded, AND no one has mentioned that STUPID TWAT in your Picture, We are angry about what we have seen THE CARTOONS

They were printed in "Dagbladet" and "Aftenposten", those are two of the largest newspapers in Norway. There is no doubt muslims must have seen them. But there were no reaction, which was good. Ignoring is sometimes the best you can do towards people trying to offend you.

[Sis786]

[QUOTE=HeiGou;178374]
I accept that, but I think it is important that in Denmark it is the Danes that determine those boundaries.[ QUOTE]

When Danes look to offend people also OUT of Denmark then we as VICTIMS have every right to speak out. Muhammed PBHU was not Danish! He was a Prophet to ALL MUSLIMS so when we talk about a Prophet and when we are looking to offend a PROPHET then we are offending ALL HIS FOLLOWERS.


[QUOTE=HeiGou;178374]Well when you use your freedom of speech in a way that does not incite murder or terrorism I see nothing wrong. So far you have put your case strongly but have not called for my head to be cut off. I have no problem with that and would expect no less.[ QUOTE]

Yes I agree BUT then again i go back to the fact of what these pictures meant. THERE was NO reason to draw these pictures, THERE was no meaning behind them, THESE pictures WERE made for one purpose and THAT WAS TO OFFEND,

As for heads being cutt off. If this had happened in a Muslim Country then this would have been the outcome of the Publisher, As we as Muslims have a separate Law and those who go against this Law are punished. Just like if you were in America and if you went against the Law there YOU might face the death sentence
[QUOTE=HeiGou;178374]Perhaps, but where will it end? People have been telling me for over a year now that there are too many Muslims in the West and they need to go.[ QUOTE]

Yeah most from the East also think that the WEST need to leave.

[QUOTE=HeiGou;178374]So my question to you is simple - to live together as Muslims and non-Muslims there needs to be mutual respect.[ QUOTE]

Totally agree, You wont find a Muslim offending another Religion. One thing we regard most precious to us is OUR FAITH. Many in the West regard thier Parents Thier Country THIER football team. We dont go around deliberately and for no reason AT all OFFEND THEM DO WE?

[Sis786]

They were printed in "Dagbladet" and "Aftenposten", those are two of the largest newspapers in Norway. There is no doubt muslims must have seen them. But there were no reaction, which was good. Ignoring is sometimes the best you can do towards people trying to offend you.

I think anything else and we might have tolerated this BUT to treat a Man we reagrd more than our lives like this, THEN the re-publishing was just out of order

[Juice]

I think the problem is not in Danish newspaper nor journalist. The problem is how islamic people understand their religion and in this case they understand it wrong.
Yes, yes they printed cartoons, so what? Is this the reason to start burning houses and violence around. If I would say 'Islam prompts violence and terrorism' to you Islamic people face to face will you kill or beat me then?
This is silly, especially in the 21st century. Islam was founded in middleages and the religion is not flexible to these days. Islam people have to think innovative and be educated and only then they can have economical and social goodness and when they will have it, they will respond to similar cartoons forgiving. Violence usually comes from non-educated people. Why is it so? It is because of your religion and fanatism which do not allow recognition of the world. If you are smart you know what is wrong and what is right and if you will not pay any attention to such printings nobody will publish them again.
I think there are Islamic people who do not want to be islamic but they are afraid not to be islamic and live in islamic countries. A man is free from his birthday and nobody cannot command him what he wants to do.
After 100 years all people will be equal you want it or not because the globalisation process is going faster and faster.

I would like to say last thing to islamic teenagers and other immigrants who usually participate in such forums and Live in Europe, USA and etc:
Why are you angry on the Europe and its press? If you dont like what you see or hear go back to your countries and build economies there but your parents came here seeking for a better life. We did not want you but you wanted us. If you live in our countries you have to behave like us.

[- Qatada -]

Juice, do you actually know what you're saying?


First of all, theres no place for racism in islam - therefore no, we don't need to go back to 'our own countries.' There are alot of swedish,danish, european, american muslims all over the world.


Secondly - you need to understand that islam does fit in with todays society, and it is a religion from the one God who created the heavens and the earth, it is a religion that was sent to Adam, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and all the prophets before that (peace be upon them all.) So its easy for God to create a religion that is created for all of mankind, till the final day.


[Qur'an 30:22] And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colors; verily in that are Signs for those who know.

[Qur'an 49:13] O mankind! We created you from a male and female [Adam and Eve], and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is the one who is most deeply conscious of Him...


Its our duty as muslims to spread the message, and to spread peace. This means, we should avoid violence, like the violence you may have seen on tv. We should show the true, pure character as muslims, of all the prophets. Because they (the prophets) - were the best of all mankind. When the ignorant addressed, them - they said 'peace.' and we should lead that example as muslims.


If you have any questions about islam, please do ask. But please ask, to learn with an open heart, not to attack something you may not have sufficient knowledge about. Thanks.


Peace. :)

[Juice]

Hello,

Europeans have understood Christianity wrong in middleages and this led crusades in the East but now we understand that violence is not right and you still think like a middle age man.

Yes, I am Christian but I dont think God created the Earth and heaven. This is pathetic. I sayed be educated. Your religion can be a practice which remounts to antiquity but dont say God created the Earth and heaven ;D

Religions were made to control citizens and is a high psychological system which is used.
You people have to live for yourselves but not for the religion and all World will be friendly.
:w:

Juice, do you actually know what you're saying?


First of all, theres no place for racism in islam - therefore no, we don't need to go back to 'our own countries.' There are alot of swedish,danish, european, american muslims all over the world.


Secondly - you need to understand that islam does fit in with todays society, and it is a religion from the one God who created the heavens and the earth, it is a religion that was sent to Adam, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and all the prophets before that (peace be upon them all.) So its easy for God to create a religion that is created for all of mankind, till the final day.


[Qur'an 30:22] And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colors; verily in that are Signs for those who know.

[Qur'an 49:13] O mankind! We created you from a male and female [Adam and Eve], and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is the one who is most deeply conscious of Him...


Its our duty as muslims to spread the message, and to spread peace. This means, we should avoid violence, like the violence you may have seen on tv. We should show the true, pure character as muslims, of all the prophets. Because they (the prophets) - were the best of all mankind. When the ignorant addressed, them - they said 'peace.' and we should lead that example as muslims.


If you have any questions about islam, please do ask. But please ask, to learn with an open heart, not to attack something you may not have sufficient knowledge about. Thanks.


Peace. :)

[HeiGou]

I accept that, but I think it is important that in Denmark it is the Danes that determine those boundaries.

When Danes look to offend people also OUT of Denmark then we as VICTIMS have every right to speak out. Muhammed PBHU was not Danish! He was a Prophet to ALL MUSLIMS so when we talk about a Prophet and when we are looking to offend a PROPHET then we are offending ALL HIS FOLLOWERS.

I am not denying anyone their right to speak out. What I think is that they should obey the law of the country that they are in. And I am defending Denmark's rights of independence and self determination.

Yes I agree BUT then again i go back to the fact of what these pictures meant. THERE was NO reason to draw these pictures, THERE was no meaning behind them, THESE pictures WERE made for one purpose and THAT WAS TO OFFEND,

Actually there is a reason - to discover how intimidated Danish illustrators are and how tolerant Danish society is of free speech.

As for heads being cutt off. If this had happened in a Muslim Country then this would have been the outcome of the Publisher, As we as Muslims have a separate Law and those who go against this Law are punished. Just like if you were in America and if you went against the Law there YOU might face the death sentence

Sure. If I was in America. Is it right that America might seek to execute me for something I did in Iraq - even though it was total legal in Iraq? Do you think that that would be wrong?

Yeah most from the East also think that the WEST need to leave.

Perhaps. But I think that would end badly for everyone. No matter. It seems there is little I can do to avert it anyway.

So my question to you is simple - to live together as Muslims and non-Muslims there needs to be mutual respect.

Totally agree, You wont find a Muslim offending another Religion.

That is not entirely true. Muslims do believe things that other people find offensive - that there is only One God for instance. Offends Hindus and Buddhists and other assorted animists. That Muhammed is His prophet for another - offends Christians and Jews. That Jesus was not God and did not die on the Cross. The list goes on. Did you read Amir Butler's article that I posted earlier?

One thing we regard most precious to us is OUR FAITH. Many in the West regard thier Parents Thier Country THIER football team. We dont go around deliberately and for no reason AT all OFFEND THEM DO WE?

Well not for no reason, but putting an "I love Al-Qaeda" cap on a baby's head was pretty offensive to many. Abu Hamza is in jail for offending many more.

If we are all to get along there needs to be limits on what we do to each other. Calling for more 7-7 attacks is beyond any reasonable standard.

[Muezzin]

I think the problem is not in Danish newspaper nor journalist. The problem is how islamic people understand their religion and in this case they understand it wrong.

Eh? With all due respect, I don't think you're in any position to decide what the correct way of understanding Islam is. Just as I am not in the best position to decide what the correct way of understanding Buddhism is, for example.

Yes, yes they printed cartoons, so what? Is this the reason to start burning houses and violence around.

Nope.

If I would say 'Islam prompts violence and terrorism' to you Islamic people face to face will you kill or beat me then?

No. To tell the truth, I'd probably just make fun of you, but that's just me.

This is silly, especially in the 21st century. Islam was founded in middleages and the religion is not flexible to these days.

I beg to differ. The teachings and rules of Islam themselves are flexible and future-proof. Of course you get a few followers of Islam who are crazy as heck, but the religion itself is flawless.

Islam people have to think innovative and be educated and only then they can have economical and social goodness and when they will have it, they will respond to similar cartoons forgiving.

Are you saying that by definition, all Muslims are not 'innovative' or 'educated'?

Violence usually comes from non-educated people.

Except when it's in Iraq. Twice. Or Germany, or Poland, or France, etc :p

Why is it so? It is because of your religion and fanatism which do not allow recognition of the world.

Oh, really? Care to tell me where Islam does not allow 'recognition of the world'?

If you are smart you know what is wrong and what is right and if you will not pay any attention to such printings nobody will publish them again.

This is true. However, I cannot say I am surprised by the reaction to the cartoons.

I think there are Islamic people who do not want to be islamic but they are afraid not to be islamic and live in islamic countries.

Yes, so?

A man is free from his birthday and nobody cannot command him what he wants to do.

God can.

After 100 years all people will be equal you want it or not because the globalisation process is going faster and faster.

We do want all people to be equal. We believe all people are equal.

Personally, I myself am not a fan of globalisation - I think it's better that each country has its own heritage and culture. It's just more interesting that way.

I would like to say last thing to islamic teenagers and other immigrants who usually participate in such forums and Live in Europe, USA and etc:

Please do not group together so many people into one basket. It makes you look both ignorant and racist.

Why are you angry on the Europe and its press?

Because many Muslims found the cartoons offensive. Just like if someone called you an '[insert expletive]-face' in the street - you'd get pretty angry right?

If you dont like what you see or hear go back to your countries and build economies there but your parents came here seeking for a better life. We did not want you but you wanted us. If you live in our countries you have to behave like us.

And the vast majority of Muslims do abide by the laws of the land. Please tighten your language in future, since it currently makes you look bigoted.

[Anoobis]

Salam
What i want to know is why are muslims apologising to the danish when the danish have not apologised to us?
Wassalam

that's the attitude that creates war my friend, and i am quite sure there's loads of forums with Norwegian / Danish youth saying "sorry" on behalf of their country but you just havent read them yet.

[Juice]

Eh? With all due respect, I don't think you're in any position to decide what the correct way of understanding Islam is. Just as I am not in the best position to decide what the correct way of understanding Buddhism is, for example.


Nope.


No. To tell the truth, I'd probably just make fun of you, but that's just me.


I beg to differ. The teachings and rules of Islam themselves are flexible and future-proof. Of course you get a few followers of Islam who are crazy as heck, but the religion itself is flawless.


Are you saying that by definition, all Muslims are not 'innovative' or 'educated'?
Innovative country is UAE only. There are no others.

Except when it's in Iraq. Twice. Or Germany, or Poland, or France, etc :p


Oh, really? Care to tell me where Islam does not allow 'recognition of the world'? I know people in islamic countries cannot watch sattelite TV, read erotic magazines, drink. Girls have to wear lots of clothes and if they will not they can be punished. Is this a freedom and recognition of the world?


This is true. However, I cannot say I am surprised by the reaction to the cartoons.
Violence comes from non educated people

Yes, so?
They are afraid and cannot say no because you fanatics can harm them.

God can.
You must be joking. However this is the way you understand the world but this is not an issue for other people

We do want all people to be equal. We believe all people are equal.

Personally, I myself am not a fan of globalisation - I think it's better that each country has its own heritage and culture. It's just more interesting that way.
Globalisation will be for our all goodness and people will be tolerant

Please do not group together so many people into one basket. It makes you look both ignorant and racist.
Facts prove that...


Because many Muslims found the cartoons offensive. Just like if someone called you an '[insert expletive]-face' in the street - you'd get pretty angry right?
I wouls say something back but will not make any violence. This is the reason why I differ from you.

And the vast majority of Muslims do abide by the laws of the land. Please tighten your language in future, since it currently makes you look bigoted.

...

[TSpot]

And the vast majority of Muslims do abide by the laws of the land. Please tighten your language in future, since it currently makes you look bigoted.

That is true and the language certainly could be cleaned up. However, Sis, is advocating the violation of those laws or that they should be changed to suit her. That is simply not how a democracy works. Violence is wrong and it doesn't work. Had the protests been peaceful, the government of Denmark's hands would not be tied right now. This extremism increases the gulf, not reduces it.

Several years ago there was an art exhibit where one of the artists' 'work' was a crucifix suspended in a jar of urine. This is extreme blasphemy to Christians. To make matters worse, the exhibit was, in part funded by the government. Did Christians burn and loot and resort to violence? No. They protested, they even sued and they fought for reform of the laws. At the end of the day the courts said that the artist had a right to show this work.

Was the artist attacking Christianity? I don't know. However, if folks had killed him or resorted to violence, his point would have been made for him because that is clearly anti-Christian behavior.

I was offended by the depiction, but I believe in his absolute right to make it. It is his opinion, however misguided. But there is no way, as a Christian, I can support violence for this act.

[Anoobis]

Yes I agree BUT then again i go back to the fact of what these pictures meant. THERE was NO reason to draw these pictures, THERE was no meaning behind them, THESE pictures WERE made for one purpose and THAT WAS TO OFFEND,

Do you allways expect the worst from people?

Totally agree, You wont find a Muslim offending another Religion. One thing we regard most precious to us is OUR FAITH. Many in the West regard thier Parents Thier Country THIER football team. We dont go around deliberately and for no reason AT all OFFEND THEM DO WE?

You are aware of that you are mocking the christian god just by not worshipping him according to the old testament?

every good christian are supposed to kill all non-believers and people living in sin with rocks etc.
BUT christians don't practice that (anymore... the crusades...shrug!) becos it's INHUMANE and NO ONE respects other peoples religions more than christians in europe.

we let you have your own churches for crying out loud, shouting in your own language in loudspeakers across town every day.
Do we burn your holy places near us every time a muslim terrorist blow off a bomb in a nearby country or in our own? NO
But some of you burned our embassies becos a few stupid EDITORS made some bad calls.

These are the reasons why muslims aren't trusted by many in my country, wich is Norway for the record.

i prefer to stay neutral when it comes to religion, but Muslims resort to voilence alot wich i don't like much.

[Ken Nielsen]

Anoobis,

Thank you for posting honestly what is your viewpoint.


I am thankful that we can share our lives and thoughts across the world instantly because of the gift of the internet.

An amazing provided invention for this time,



Ken

[aamirsaab]

Edit

[Muezzin]

Innovative country is UAE only. There are no others.

I’m not talking about countries. I’m talking about individuals. Surely you are not saying that all Muslims are uneducated? If you are saying that, you are wrong.

I know people in islamic countries cannot watch sattelite TV,

So? Most TV is crap anyway.

read erotic magazines,

Why have a magazine when you can have a spouse?

drink.

And? It saves money and you don’t make a fool of yourself. It’s a win-win situation.

Girls have to wear lots of clothes

You say that like girls don’t like to buy and wear clothes. You ever been into Gap? :p

and if they will not they can be punished.

Because that is the law in that country.

Is this a freedom and recognition of the world?

Not ‘freedom’ as you define it, or ‘recognition’ of your world. It is simply different. If you cannot comprehend this, then you are guilty of the very same ignorance you are accusing Muslims in Europe of.

Violence comes from non educated people

As the Crusades, the Napoleonic Wars, both World Wars, Vietnam, Korea and Iraq all show.

They are afraid and cannot say no because you fanatics can harm them.

There you go with the sweeping generalisations. You calling me a fanatic now? Have you ever met me in real life? No. Please, do not make such generalisations as they make you look ignorant and bigoted.

You must be joking.

Nope.

However this is the way you understand the world but this is not an issue for other people

Fair enough.

Globalisation will be for our all goodness and people will be tolerant

That’s what you believe. I believe otherwise. I think each country of this planet should retain its own culture and identity and language.

Facts prove that...

What are you talking about? No, really, your statement doesn’t make sense. What are you saying?

I wouls say something back but will not make any violence. This is the reason why I differ from you.

But if you say something back, you will be angry won’t you? Really, I’m angry that people are angry at Muslims for GETTING angry. I mean, jeez, now Muslims can’t even experience EMOTIONS? Note, I am not supporting violence. The emotion of anger, however, is a natural one given provocation. To argue otherwise is stupidity.

TSpot, I agree with you. Violence is not the answer. And the example you gave proves a lot of modern art is rubbish, no? :p Now, Da Vinci, Picasso, Raphael, Michaelangelo - those guys could paint.

Andy Warhol? Eh... not so much. :p

[TSpot]

You say that like girls don’t like to buy and wear clothes. You ever been into Gap?

Now, that's a good comeback.

[Christian_dove]

But if you say something back, you will be angry won’t you? Really, I’m angry that people are angry at Muslims for GETTING angry. I mean, jeez, now Muslims can’t even experience EMOTIONS? Note, I am not supporting violence. The emotion of anger, however, is a natural one given provocation. To argue otherwise is stupidity.

Emotions are deceiving. Desire, hatred, lust, jealousy, anger, etc. Non if it is the truth. Use reason in stead. I am sure Muhammad must have said something about controling ones emotions in stead of letting the emotions control you..

[Muezzin]

Emotions are deceiving. Desire, hatred, lust, jealousy, anger, etc. Non if it is the truth. Use reason in stead. I am sure Muhammad must have said something about controling ones emotions in stead of letting the emotions control you..

Indeed he did. See the post below for the correct hadith.

However, to tell someone off just for feeling angry is silly. Of course, if the anger leads to violence, such beratement is justified. But the emotion itself is perfectly natural. Otherwise one represses one's anger which is extremely unhealthy, as the 'Hulk' movie shows ;)

Now, that's a good comeback.

I try. :)

[- Qatada -]

Abu Hurayra reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "The person who is strong is not strong because he can knock people down. The person who is strong is the one who controls himself when he is angry."


Ibn 'Umar said,"There is nothing that is swallowed greater with Allah in reward than a slave of Allah who swallows and contains his rancour out of desire for the pleasure of Allah."


more from this link:
http://www.sunnipath.com/Resources/P...0003P0055.aspx


Peace.

[Anoobis]

As the Crusades, the Napoleonic Wars, both World Wars, Vietnam, Korea and Iraq all show.

we all have our share of maniacs, Bush being the latter one on "our" side sadly.

but tell me WICH one of these wars Denmark and Norway played a central part?

If the worst thing we ever did to you was publishing a few drawings then i have to say you have NOTHING at all to be mad about.

Our own public magasines print alot more blasphemic pictures and writings towards Christianity with far less public uprise than those two pictures, some call it freedom of speech and others blasphemy... I'd say if every single one of us cared less about what others said and did against us or our beliefs without hurting me physichally i would care less about it.

One problem here might be that the general european thinks something like this: "huh, did they go all crazy just becos of some pictures?"
I think it's becos we have had freedom of speech for so long that we are used to it, and maybe even becos european race don't tend to get offended as fast as eastern countries... my personal thoughts so i might be all wrong here.

I think this will end in another WAR if we (you me and everyone) doesen't stop and think about what we are doing now... so please think about it before throwing that molotov coctail as those editors should have thought about it before printing those pictures.
If no one stops the war is on, don't wait till the other side stop but for God, Allah, Mohammad and The Virgin Mary's sake (random order) EVERYONE stop the madness.

[Muezzin]

we all have our share of maniacs, Bush being the latter one on "our" side sadly.

but tell me WICH one of these wars Denmark and Norway played a central part?

I never said they did. I was just disproving Juice's assertion that all violence is comitted by uneducated people. War is violent. Heads of State go to war all the time. I'm sure they are not 'uneducated' ;)

If the worst thing we ever did to you was publishing a few drawings then i have to say you have NOTHING at all to be mad about.

I do wish people would stop generalizing since it makes them look ignorant.

Our own public magasines print alot more blasphemic pictures and writings towards Christianity with far less public uprise than those two pictures, some call it freedom of speech and others blasphemy... I'd say if every single one of us cared less about what others said and did against us or our beliefs without hurting me physichally i would care less about it.

Fine.

One problem here might be that the general european thinks something like this: "huh, did they go all crazy just becos of some pictures?"
I think it's becos we have had freedom of speech for so long that we are used to it, and maybe even becos european race don't tend to get offended as fast as eastern countries... my personal thoughts so i might be all wrong here.

You may be right. This is a culture clash.

I think this will end in another WAR if we (you me and everyone) doesen't stop and think about what we are doing now... so please think about it before throwing that molotov coctail as those editors should have thought about it before printing those pictures.

True. However, I didn't throw any molotov cocktails or particpate in any violence. Please stop generalising.

If no one stops the war is on, don't wait till the other side stop but for God, Allah, Mohammad and The Virgin Mary's sake (random order) EVERYONE stop the madness.

I agree.

[songinwind]

I think the problem is not in Danish newspaper nor journalist. The problem is how islamic people understand their religion and in this case they understand it wrong.
Yes, yes they printed cartoons, so what? Is this the reason to start burning houses and violence around. If I would say 'Islam prompts violence and terrorism' to you Islamic people face to face will you kill or beat me then?
This is silly, especially in the 21st century. Islam was founded in middleages and the religion is not flexible to these days. Islam people have to think innovative and be educated and only then they can have economical and social goodness and when they will have it, they will respond to similar cartoons forgiving. Violence usually comes from non-educated people. Why is it so? It is because of your religion and fanatism which do not allow recognition of the world. If you are smart you know what is wrong and what is right and if you will not pay any attention to such printings nobody will publish them again.
I think there are Islamic people who do not want to be islamic but they are afraid not to be islamic and live in islamic countries. A man is free from his birthday and nobody cannot command him what he wants to do.
After 100 years all people will be equal you want it or not because the globalisation process is going faster and faster.

I would like to say last thing to islamic teenagers and other immigrants who usually participate in such forums and Live in Europe, USA and etc:
Why are you angry on the Europe and its press? If you dont like what you see or hear go back to your countries and build economies there but your parents came here seeking for a better life. We did not want you but you wanted us. If you live in our countries you have to behave like us.

I am just wondering how you can say something so rude?(We did not want you
but you wanted us. If you live in our countries you have to behave like
us.))):X ..There are so many different customs, religions, all things, people(say USA) behave like...for anyone to say somethings so rude..so with all that happens in USA, which way should one behave?? Think when u speak, as this comment is crazy....peace to you.:)

[Ken Nielsen]

"Cartoon Protesters Direct Anger at U.S.
AP - 1 hour, 1 minute ago
QALAT, Afghanistan - Police killed four people Wednesday as Afghans enraged over drawings of the Prophet Muhammad marched on a U.S. military base in a volatile southern province, directing their anger not against Europe but America. The U.S. base was targeted because the United States "is the leader of Europe and the leading infidel in the world," said Sher Mohammed, a 40-year-old farmer who suffered a gunshot wound while taking part in the demonstration in the city of Qalat."


Here's the news we are getting in the U.S.,

What are we supposed to think?

[Takumi]

"Cartoon Protesters Direct Anger at U.S.
AP - 1 hour, 1 minute ago
QALAT, Afghanistan - Police killed four people Wednesday as Afghans enraged over drawings of the Prophet Muhammad marched on a U.S. military base in a volatile southern province, directing their anger not against Europe but America. The U.S. base was targeted because the United States "is the leader of Europe and the leading infidel in the world," said Sher Mohammed, a 40-year-old farmer who suffered a gunshot wound while taking part in the demonstration in the city of Qalat."


Here's the news we are getting in the U.S.,

What are we supposed to think?

I won't tell you what you're supposed to think. I can suggest that you take everything with a grain of salt.

Remember Opray Winfrey and the author Frey?

After making millions due to Oprah's endorsements, he admitted that he had "exaggerated" some details in his book.

Not quite a sharp analogy, I must admit, but in retrospect, news can be and will be reported with different flair.

The farmer doesn't represent the majority. Neither did Timothy McVeigh, Nichols, Andrea Yates, Hannibal Lecter, Dave Pelzer's mom, pedophilic Catholic priests..you get the point.

[Sis786]

Assalam Alykum

Ok we seem to be going around in circles. Ok Danish newspapers wanted to execise thier FREEDOM OF SPEECH Why attack the Muslims then? I mean come on why not the Hindus and Jews? Im not saying that would have been any better than our current situation BUT WHY MUSLIMS? And if you were gonna exercise your rights DID YOU HAVE TO STOOP SOO LOW TO CARTOONS AND ABUSE? Thats exactly what this is!

News Reports yesterday were saying that the 12 men involved in the Cartoon Scandal have gone into hiding and are QUESTIONING themselves as to what they did was it right or wrong!

They the DANISH prime Minster comes on and says "I didn’t think some Cartoons would cause this!" THIS IS WHY WE ARE SOO MAD AT THE DANISH GOVERMENT.

Yes SOME people have taken things too far by burning buildings and inciting HATE! But the DANISH Government ARE STILL ACTING ARROGANTLY. Its obvious from the response from MUSLIMS that this is NOT "Some Cartoons".

Do you really think WE Muslims have got the time to go on the street and PROTEST for nothing?

Do you think we LIKE being angry?

For many years we have got on with non-Muslims, WE live in NON-MUSLIM countries BUT to say that these ARE YOUR COUNTRIES SHOWS YOUR IMMATURITY AND ARROGANCE. Our GREAT GRANDFATHERS LIKE YOURS FOUGHT IN THE WARS! We participate in everyday life. WE OWN some of the wealthiest Businesses Crime RATE among us is low! The Elder Generations were law abiding WE PAY TAX. Then does the colour of our SKIN determine that this AINT our Country.

I was born and bred here, I pay Tax I have ties with this country WHAT DOES THAT MAKE ME ANY LESS BRITISH THAN YOU. What about the WHITE REVERTS, ARE they NOW less British as THERE Muslim?

I think its about time that OUR rights are seen IF countries respected us, our religion and our beliefs and comments NO ONE would turn to Violence. We've been silenced TOO Long!

[HeiGou]

Ok we seem to be going around in circles. Ok Danish newspapers wanted to execise thier FREEDOM OF SPEECH Why attack the Muslims then? I mean come on why not the Hindus and Jews? Im not saying that would have been any better than our current situation BUT WHY MUSLIMS? And if you were gonna exercise your rights DID YOU HAVE TO STOOP SOO LOW TO CARTOONS AND ABUSE? Thats exactly what this is!

Presumably Danish cartoonish lampoon Hindus and Jews all the time. They certainly do it to Jesus and Christians. I agree that it is wrong to go about insulting other people's religions. But now it has been done and the question is what to do next.

News Reports yesterday were saying that the 12 men involved in the Cartoon Scandal have gone into hiding and are QUESTIONING themselves as to what they did was it right or wrong!

Really? What do you think most Danes are thinking?

They the DANISH prime Minster comes on and says "I didn’t think some Cartoons would cause this!" THIS IS WHY WE ARE SOO MAD AT THE DANISH GOVERMENT.

Yes SOME people have taken things too far by burning buildings and inciting HATE! But the DANISH Government ARE STILL ACTING ARROGANTLY. Its obvious from the response from MUSLIMS that this is NOT "Some Cartoons".

Do you really think WE Muslims have got the time to go on the street and PROTEST for nothing?

You are mad because the Danes did something that offended you without knowing it would offend you? Surely that is a reason to be less mad? How are the Danes acting arrogantly? That Danish Muslims are upset I can understand. That non-Danish Muslims are upset I can also understand. That Danish Muslims campaign for changes I can understand. That all Muslims boycott Danish products is, I think, reasonable. That you insist on your right to tell Danes how to live in Denmark I do not understand. Why do you think your values ought to trump their values in their own country?

For many years we have got on with non-Muslims, WE live in NON-MUSLIM countries BUT to say that these ARE YOUR COUNTRIES SHOWS YOUR IMMATURITY AND ARROGANCE. Our GREAT GRANDFATHERS LIKE YOURS FOUGHT IN THE WARS! We participate in everyday life. WE OWN some of the wealthiest Businesses Crime RATE among us is low! The Elder Generations were law abiding WE PAY TAX. Then does the colour of our SKIN determine that this AINT our Country.

I see you have got upset but if it comes down to it and there is a problem between the Muslims and the non-Muslims, how long do you think people will remember that you pay taxes? The Muslims are becoming the new Jews of Europe. The Jews of Germany paid taxes, obeyed the laws, fought in German Wars, and whatever. But when it came down to it Germans decided they were not German enough. It can happen to any minority at any time. This is, I hasten to add, a very bad thing. It is not the color of the skin, but the sharing of values.

I was born and bred here, I pay Tax I have ties with this country WHAT DOES THAT MAKE ME ANY LESS BRITISH THAN YOU. What about the WHITE REVERTS, ARE they NOW less British as THERE Muslim?

Well no as I am not British. I have no problem accepting that you are British. But it does not matter what you feel, but what everyone else thinks. Do you think that you are seen by most British people as British in the same way the non-Muslims are British? Do you ever get asked "But where are you really from?"? If the majority of the population reject you, it does not matter how long you have been here, or what you speak in the home. The real problem in the West is that the majority is becoming less and less tolerant. If they are annoyed, do you think that the best way to deal with them is to talk rationally and calmly?

I think its about time that OUR rights are seen IF countries respected us, our religion and our beliefs and comments NO ONE would turn to Violence. We've been silenced TOO Long!

I think you would find it hard to find a non-Muslim country that respected your religion and beliefs more than Britain does. I might be wrong but the Prime Minister's wife is arguing as we speak for the right of school girls to wear the jilbalb. It is a sign of something. What rights do you think you do not have? Cartoonists insult everyone's religions equally. Are you banned from prayer? Dua? Is hallal food hard to find much less forbidden?

And again, let me ask you, the majority of the people in the West see the Muslims of Europe as a problem. They feel threatened and scared. That may work for people who are powerless, but the Europeans have things they can do to remedy that situation. Bad things. Let me ask you, if you are dealing with people who are vastly more powerful than you and you have scared them (think of a large, angry man with an AK-47 in his hand) do you think the best way to talk to them is to shout and bully them some more?

This was reprinted in a major Australian daily newspaper

Multiculturalism can be tantamount to national suicide
James Pinkerton, in Newsday, on how the Danish cartoon kerfuffle shows the folly of a divided ethnic society
February 09, 2006

DIFFERENCES between the West and the Muslim world can be chalked up to just that: differences. That's the truth about world ethnicity, and no amount of politically correct wishful thinking will change that truth. Countries that ignore that basic lesson of history and political science put themselves at grave risk of internal discord, subversion and civil war. Either a country is united in its common culture or it becomes disunited in its multiculturalism.

For proof, we need only look to Europe, where millions of Muslims have been allowed to immigrate without much thought given to their political and cultural integration into their host societies. In London, Muslims responding to the Danish cartoons chanted pro-jihad slogans and carried signs reading "7/7 is on its way" - a reference to the terror bombings last July 7 that killed 52 innocent Britons. That's not free speech; that's incitement to violence. A nation allowing such hostile populations to flourish in its midst is not defending liberty. It is enabling its own national suicide.

Short of worldwide war, followed by occupation, there's not much the West can do about Muslim culture in Muslim lands. That's international multiculturalism, alas. But on the issue of intra-national multiculturalism, there's plenty we can do. We can monitor, we can insist upon political and cultural assimilation and we can impose strict controls on immigration and travel visas - down to zero if need be.

We might not be able to change them, but we can keep them from changing us.

This is a mainstream national paper - not a fringe right-wing one. You see what I mean about opinion changing? Now when I argue with people about the benefits of a tolerant multicultural society, they say things like this: "A nation allowing such hostile populations to flourish in its midst is not defending liberty. It is enabling its own national suicide." Frankly even I am not that happy about national suicide. So. What else is there to say? You can deal with the Western public in a way that the West can accept, or you can deal with them in a way they will not. Up to you.

[Christian_dove]

Anoobis,

Thank you for posting honestly what is your viewpoint.


I am thankful that we can share our lives and thoughts across the world instantly because of the gift of the internet.

An amazing provided invention for this time,
Ken

Oops.. Seems anoobis was banned for sharing his views... Freedom of speech hasn't reached all parts of the world yet, and it probably never will. But I am glad this forum doesn't resemble the situation in my home country. Where I come from everyone is allowed to give their opinions.

[Takumi]

Good. That's why the ban function is there.

Freedom of speech comes with common sense. I do believe that even in some countries, they can't speak against royalties? don't they have laws against that?

While we value your opinion, posts that incite negative repercussion and SEEMINGLY [yes, we reserve the right to interpret your post], offensive towards our faith will not be tolerated.

This is an Islamic Forum. ANYTHING posted with intention to defame any tenets of Islam will be scrutinized and reported and if warranted, I hope will be deleted and the pertaining member be warned or banned.

If people of other faiths do not share such zeal for their faith, then that's their prerogative. It has nothing to do with being tolerant.

What good will it bring towards understanding each other, when posts blatantly degrade a member of this forum with personal attacks [which I've seen numerous times]? or excruciatingly defame one's faith?

Ask your questions, go ahead, with the intention to understand better. If you have your views, support it with facts, not your prejudices which seemingly have been formed by your personal interaction and the news.

Catholic priests in general are not fond of being called pedophiles in masks nor do muslims in general are fond of being labeled terrorists.

It doesn't make sense when we know that the majority of the members of this forum are muslims, we post statements that degrade, defame and ridicule their faith. Nor does it make sense to make cartoons of a prophet just to prove a point.

I don't believe that any survivor or the holocaust would take any statement to deny that it happened as a joke either.

Nor do I believe that any Hindu would appreciate it when people diss Siva or Vishnu especially when you do it in a forum where majority of its members are Hindus.

[zuharah]

salaams.
WHAT???y do we want to say sorry for sumthing we havent done??r we the ones hu started all this nonsense?NO!!!
ther's a difference between freedom of speech n insulting or mocking other peoples religions or their religious figures.

[Sis786]

Presumably Danish cartoonish lampoon Hindus and Jews all the time. They certainly do it to Jesus and Christians. I agree that it is wrong to go about insulting other people's religions. But now it has been done and the question is what to do next..

What to do next is to resolve this matter, By saying that "I CANT BELIEVE A COUPLE OF CARTOONS HAVE CAUSED THIS" is not resolving the matter. And as for the Danes taking the mick out of all Religion well I Think its about time they learned that RELIGION is something regarded very sacred and if you wanna start a debate how about starting it with something factiual and not OFFENSIVE IN A DEGRADING MANNER

Really? What do you think most Danes are thinking?.

Probarly WHY these IDIOTS printed SUCH stupid and FAKE pictures!

You are mad because the Danes did something that offended you without knowing it would offend you? .

Oh come on! Im not gonna go through this again, Ive already told you THERE was a reason why they chose to OFFEND a Man which lived 1400 YEARS ago! THINK ABOUT IT!

That you insist on your right to tell Danes how to live in Denmark I do not understand. Why do you think your values ought to trump their values in their own country?.

Nope im just saying RESOLVE this issue I DONT wanna see my Brothers and Sisters being Killed and Im sure Danes wanna get back to Normal life! As to values Hmmm im begiging top think whether those who printed this have any VALUES!

I see you have got upset but if it comes down to it and there is a problem between the Muslims and the non-Muslims, how long do you think people will remember that you pay taxes? The Muslims are becoming the new Jews of Europe. The Jews of Germany paid taxes, obeyed the laws, fought in German Wars, and whatever. But when it came down to it Germans decided they were not German enough. It can happen to any minority at any time. This is, I hasten to add, a very bad thing. It is not the color of the skin, but the sharing of values. .

We have shared everyones values and i think its about time that OURS are shared too. Lack of Understanding is what has led to this and LACK of respect!

Well no as I am not British. I have no problem accepting that you are British. .

Cool

Do you think that you are seen by most British people as British in the same way the non-Muslims are British? .

Hmmm Suppose! Not SINCE BUSH'S WAR ON ISLAM started No!

Do you ever get asked "But where are you really from?"? .

Yep

If the majority of the population reject you, it does not matter how long you have been here, or what you speak in the home. The real problem in the West is that the majority is becoming less and less tolerant. If they are annoyed, do you think that the best way to deal with them is to talk rationally and calmly?.

Well WE WERENT THE ONES WHO PRINTED STUPID CARTOONS! Yes we can talk and we do have the right leaders (sometimes) representing us. YOU CANT say we all HOLD the same view as those Protestors on FRIDAY. I know they WERE completley wrong and MUSLIMS DONT SUPPORT TERROISM!

I think you would find it hard to find a non-Muslim country that respected your religion and beliefs more than Britain does. .

Agreed!

I might be wrong but the Prime Minister's wife is arguing as we speak for the right of school girls to wear the jilbalb. It is a sign of something. What rights do you think you do not have? Cartoonists insult everyone's religions equally. Are you banned from prayer? Dua? Is hallal food hard to find much less forbidden?.

Yep there is insulting and then there is insulting! You see NOT only did THESE Cartoons insulted our MOST beloved Prophet pbhu BUT these Cartoons were an attack on ALL Muslims refer to the above! Like i said Muslims FOLLOW the example of Muhammed PBHU!

And again, let me ask you, the majority of the people in the West see the Muslims of Europe as a problem. They feel threatened and scared. That may work for people who are powerless, but the Europeans have things they can do to remedy that situation. Bad things. Let me ask you, if you are dealing with people who are vastly more powerful than you and you have scared them (think of a large, angry man with an AK-47 in his hand) do you think the best way to talk to them is to shout and bully them some more?.

We fear No one except God! And no one should feel threatned by us! meaning Muslims! YES there are a few out of hand! But then there are a few MURDERERS RAPIST RACIST and these are from different races and sexes. I cant go around BEING scared of ALL white men thinking IM gonna get raped JUST beacuse ONE white man on the TV has been charged for RAPE!

[HeiGou]

salaams.
WHAT???y do we want to say sorry for sumthing we havent done??r we the ones hu started all this nonsense?NO!!!
ther's a difference between freedom of speech n insulting or mocking other peoples religions or their religious figures.

Assuming that has anything to do with me, no I do not think you (for whatever "you" you think that means) need to apologise for anything. I think the people who put on suicide belts or hold up signs calling for the beheading of cartoonists do need to apologise, but I don't suppose any of those people are here.

In the end there it is hard to draw a line between freedom of speech and mocking someone else's religion or beliefs or their religious figures. Or at least it is very hard to draw a line between the two. Some countries do limit the freedom of speech to prevent people committing blasphemy (Britain theoretically does still) or Holocaust denial or whatever. But in the end, it is impossible to reconcile freedom and a total respect for many religions. This is especially true for religions that claim to be "total" ways of life. So take a few examples. Suppose Sheik Bin Baz in Saudi Arabia says that the Sun goes around the Earth because the Quran says so. Is it insulting to Islam to say that the Sun does not go around the Earth? Suppose another scholar says evolution is anti-Christian. Is it insulting to Islam to teach it in schools or do any research in Universities? Suppose a Rabbi says it is Anti-Semitic to oppose the existence of Israel. Should we arrest all those who have fought for justice in Palestine? We can pass anti-Vilification laws for religions, but that will just result in everyone suing everyone else.

[Sis786]

In the end there it is hard to draw a line between freedom of speech and mocking someone else's religion or beliefs or their religious figures. Or at least it is very hard to draw a line between the two. Some countries do limit the freedom of speech to prevent people committing blasphemy (Britain theoretically does still) or Holocaust denial or whatever. But in the end, it is impossible to reconcile freedom and a total respect for many religions. This is especially true for religions that claim to be "total" ways of life. So take a few examples. Suppose Sheik Bin Baz in Saudi Arabia says that the Sun goes around the Earth because the Quran says so. Is it insulting to Islam to say that the Sun does not go around the Earth? Suppose another scholar says evolution is anti-Christian. Is it insulting to Islam to teach it in schools or do any research in Universities? Suppose a Rabbi says it is Anti-Semitic to oppose the existence of Israel. Should we arrest all those who have fought for justice in Palestine? We can pass anti-Vilification laws for religions, but that will just result in everyone suing everyone else.

If you make a debate or a comment and its backed up by some sort of evidence or fact then this is fine ITS DEBATE. Freedom of Speech is Brilliant and when MOST Scholars do Dawah (talks about Islam) they do use this TOOL. Then there is JUST INSULT. And thats what MOST FORGET!

[HeiGou]

What to do next is to resolve this matter, By saying that "I CANT BELIEVE A COUPLE OF CARTOONS HAVE CAUSED THIS" is not resolving the matter. And as for the Danes taking the mick out of all Religion well I Think its about time they learned that RELIGION is something regarded very sacred and if you wanna start a debate how about starting it with something factiual and not OFFENSIVE IN A DEGRADING MANNER

It would be sensible to deal with religious issues in a polite and sensible manner, although I doubt that would prevent some misguided souls from becoming very upset as well. There are people who doubt various aspects of religious teachings and some of them have to live under police protection because of it. What we all need to do is accept that violence is not the way and learn more respect for each other. I think that means respecting the rights of the Danes to live their own lives in their own country but I think I may be a minority on that issue.

Oh come on! Im not gonna go through this again, Ive already told you THERE was a reason why they chose to OFFEND a Man which lived 1400 YEARS ago! THINK ABOUT IT!

Sure. I have. And I still come back to the stated reasons - they wanted to find the limits of free speech in Denmark. My question is still, why did a few Danish radicals take those pictures out of Denmark (where they caused no fuss) and take them to the Middle East?

We have shared everyones values and i think its about time that OURS are shared too. Lack of Understanding is what has led to this and LACK of respect!

Well there are some values here that are not being shared at least by a minority. Tolerance is the main one. I agree there is a problem with a lack of understanding, and a lack of respect, but I don't think it is the Danes alone that have that problem.

Well WE WERENT THE ONES WHO PRINTED STUPID CARTOONS! Yes we can talk and we do have the right leaders (sometimes) representing us. YOU CANT say we all HOLD the same view as those Protestors on FRIDAY. I know they WERE completley wrong and MUSLIMS DONT SUPPORT TERROISM!

I know few Muslims hold those views. You know it. Maybe even the media knows it. But do the majority of British people know it? The tide of opinion is turning and once it has turned it will not moved again very quickly. I never said Muslims supported terrorism, but there is no doubt that many British people now think they do. In the end it only matters what most people think. What do you think they think now they have seen those protesters?

We fear No one except God! And no one should feel threatned by us! meaning Muslims! YES there are a few out of hand! But then there are a few MURDERERS RAPIST RACIST and these are from different races and sexes. I cant go around BEING scared of ALL white men thinking IM gonna get raped JUST beacuse ONE white man on the TV has been charged for RAPE!

In Britain it is only a few extremists. But how many do you need to make life unbearable? A few suicide bombings and London becomes a very different place. I assume, and please correct me if I am presumptuous, you go around dressed modestly at least in part in order not to excite men. The fear of rape does fundamentally shape the way that women behave. With reason. Now you may not feel it because you are not threatened by suicide bombings, but the majority of British people were none-too-keen on non-White people to begin with and now this? Why shouldn't they feel threatened by that?

[Sis786]

It would be sensible to deal with religious issues in a polite and sensible manner, although I doubt that would prevent some misguided souls from becoming very upset as well. There are people who doubt various aspects of religious teachings and some of them have to live under police protection because of it. What we all need to do is accept that violence is not the way and learn more respect for each other. I think that means respecting the rights of the Danes to live their own lives in their own country but I think I may be a minority on that issue.?

No one said that DANES didnt BUT Danes need to understand when you are talking about RELIGION you are not just commenting on those YOU know or in your COUNTRY but your talking about a WHOLE group of people that COULD be offened around the world!

Sure. I have. And I still come back to the stated reasons - they wanted to find the limits of free speech in Denmark. My question is still, why did a few Danish radicals take those pictures out of Denmark (where they caused no fuss) and take them to the Middle East?

These pictures OFFEND all MUSLIMS, If this was a Danish Muslim with a BOMB on his head FAIR ENOUGH. They CHOSE the PROPHET OF ISLAM THE FINAL PROPHET THE ONE ALL MUSLIMS HOLD DEARLY! Why did people take it out of DENMARK! Is that a crime! IF I SAW A PIC OF SOMEONES BROTHER DEAD AND I TOOK IT OUT OF THIS COUNTRY TO SHOW THEM IS THAT A CRIME! That person has every right to know AS we as Muslims have a RIGHT to know!

Well there are some values here that are not being shared at least by a minority. Tolerance is the main one. I agree there is a problem with a lack of understanding, and a lack of respect, but I don't think it is the Danes alone that have that problem. ?

I never said that!

I know few Muslims hold those views. You know it. Maybe even the media knows it. But do the majority of British people know it? The tide of opinion is turning and once it has turned it will not moved again very quickly. I never said Muslims supported terrorism, but there is no doubt that many British people now think they do. In the end it only matters what most people think. What do you think they think now they have seen those protesters?

Yep i know that I ALSO know MANY IRISH people that WOULD LOVE TO KILL THE ENGLISH! I ALSO KNOW THE IRA WHICH WOULD LOVE TO CONTINUE WITH ITS KILLING, GERMANS THAT STILL HATE THE JEWS! This is a minority! Yes some hold that view BUT Cartoons like this and insults like this ARE only making the situation worse!

In Britain it is only a few extremists. But how many do you need to make life unbearable? A few suicide bombings and London becomes a very different place. I assume, and please correct me if I am presumptuous, you go around dressed modestly at least in part in order not to excite men. The fear of rape does fundamentally shape the way that women behave. With reason. Now you may not feel it because you are not threatened by suicide bombings, but the majority of British people were none-too-keen on non-White people to begin with and now this? Why shouldn't they feel threatened by that?

Yes like i said being SCARED in natural! When an event takes place we bound to be SCARED! Im Scared of Trains BECAUSE OF THE BOMBINGS ! SO i undertand that CONCEPT! But THEN again i live in an area where MOST crimes are comitted by BLACK people IM NOT gonna get scared OF every BLACK PERSON as CRIME LIKE TERROR IS WRONG AND THOSE WHO COMMIT IT ARE OUT OF ORDER! Religion NO Religion tolerates TERROISM OR ANY FORM OF CRIME. Islam is the same! SO DONT FEAR THE MUSLIMS FEAR THOSE THAT TAKE THE LAW IN THER OWN HANDS!

[sotahoro]

I excuse people as I cannot speak to all in passing during a day, but if I am near someone and I can confide in them in a personal way, and not to call attention to them or embarrass them in front of others, I will let them know that what they have just said hurts me and it is defaming the name of one that I love.

I think this is a nice way to do it. I confess, that I use those words occasionally too, but for me there's no religious meaning in the words. It's just talking. Sure if there's somebody religious in my company then I avoid using those words.
If we introduced laws to ban such language (or ban images depicting prophet Muhammad for example), it would be stupid. It would create a vicious circle and everybody would want this and that prohibited.
It's better to trust people's judgement and ability to behave instead of banning everything.

[sotahoro]

the thing is, Iran has now launched a competition for caricatures joking about the holocaust.....i completely support these acts, and i guess i will be entering some myself [MAD][/MAD]

Insulting jews who lost their family members in the holocaust will surely bring a lot of sympathy for muslims' viewpoints in this cartoon debate :heated:

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
isn't this all off topic from the actual question and purpose of this thread?
wasalam

[afzalaung]

No Apology unless they made the apology at the FRONT PAGE WITH BIG PRINTS

[Ghazi]

Salaam

Why should all muslims apologise for the actions of a few.

[sotahoro]

I agree writing about a time in which many people were killed brutally for their religion is disgusting BUT then writing about a Man whom Most Muslims consider and Love more than there very life is equally Disgusting.

Uhhhh.... :rollseyes I think killing people is still worse than writing insults about anybody or anything. I know muslims have great respect for their prophets, but the right to live should be respected too.

[HeiGou]

Why should all muslims apologise for the actions of a few.

If that is addressed to me, I think it is outrageous to suggest that all Muslims need to apologise for the actions of the few. I don't think I did. We each bear our own sins and no one else's.

My problem is one of approach. If a few radicals protest in a particular and offensive way, and given the bad atmosphere that exists already, if anyone else's protests are going to be effective they need to avoid appearing as if they are similar to the radicals.

This problem is not helped by discussions of what would have happened to those cartoonists if they were in Saudi Arabia. British Muslims do not need to apologise for that, but if they endorse it, it will not get them what they want.

[sotahoro]

I strongly beleive that US attacked Iraq not bcoz of Saddam, but the oil. A friend of mine went for a seminar(sort of) in USA 2 yrs back. She is not wearing hijab (seldom perform solah), so they didn't realise that there is a muslim malaysian in the group. One of the professor excitedly showed areas in Malaysia (via satelite) that have huge amount of oil. Will Malaysia be the next target? Nauzubillah

Now I'm quite confused. What was the seminar about, why did they talk about oil, what is the context of those satellite images? You think that the USA will attack Malaysia, because some professor in some university seminar talked about the oil there??? Hello...? :?

US have the money to buy the oil? Yup most probably they have, but what if Saddam don't want to sell it to them? Is there any possibility that was the reason of attacking Iraq?

They hate Saddam bcoz he is not practising Islam? Why on earth must they worry so much about Saddam faith and practise?

I'm not saying that they didn't have selfish interests (the oil) to remove Saddam. I'm saying that despite those selfish interests they did some good by putting Saddam away.
I don't know what the last sentence has to do with my post.

[HeiGou]

If you make a debate or a comment and its backed up by some sort of evidence or fact then this is fine ITS DEBATE. Freedom of Speech is Brilliant and when MOST Scholars do Dawah (talks about Islam) they do use this TOOL. Then there is JUST INSULT. And thats what MOST FORGET!

Well I wonder. Who decides what is or is not a fact?

Those cartoons were insulting. It was rude to draw them and publish them. But it would be hard to pass laws designed to stop that which did not also impede free speech. Any religious leader can claim that their religion demands belief in certain things. Christians used to be burnt for denying the Sun went around the Moon. So did Muslims.

The Australian State of Victoria passed a Racial Vilification law, as I may have mentioned. There is a good article on it by Amir Butler, the executive director of the Australian Muslim Public Affairs Committee, who lobbied for such laws. He has changed his mind now. The full article is at http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CAD01.htm

I recommend it. But think what happens if Britain goes down the same route, or if a law is passed such as you would demand, making it illegal to vilify any other religion. Are you prepared for Muslims to be jailed for saying there is only one God? For saying that Muhammed is His prophet? For denying that Krishna exists? What do you believe as a Muslim that is not offensive to someone else? What do you believe as a Muslim that you think you could prove to a jury of twelve Christians?

[sotahoro]

PLEASE TRY TO EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT WAS THE MEANING BEHIND THOSE CARTOONS! You will come to the conclusion that these CARTOONS WERE ONLY MADE FOR THE PURPOSE OF DEGRADING A WHOLE RELIGION.

If you did a google search you would learn the original context of the cartoons:
The drawings, including a depiction of Muhammad with a bomb inside or under his turban, were accompanied by an article on self-censorship and freedom of speech. Flemming Rose, the cultural editor of Jyllands-Posten, commissioned twelve cartoonists for the project and published the cartoons to highlight the difficulty experienced by Danish writer Kåre Bluitgen in finding artists to illustrate his children's book about Muhammad. Artists previously approached by Bluitgen were reportedly unwilling to work with him for fear of violent attacks by extremist Muslims. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jylland...ns_controversy)

[sotahoro]

[B]AFGHANISTAN
You have to bear in mind that America 3 weeks after the attack in Amercia were ready for War. This is no small scale War. How an earth did they get ready within 3 weeks!

I don't think it's a wonder, because they spend more money on military than others and they were practising for decades how to respond to a Soviet attack within minutes.
We also need to consider the intelligence information that they get. Sometimes intelligence allows you to respond to threats before any attack has taken place.
When considering this, 3 weeks doesn't sound so quick.
Just to make it clear, I'm not saying that the Americans don't have also selfish monetary interests in their military operations. They are a commercial nation so it's logical that they use their military power to pursuit their financial goals.

[sotahoro]

How can you say Afghanistan has benefited. Do you think the Mother that lost her son cares about THE FREE ELECTIONS. Do you think the Orphan whos parents died CARES ABOUT FREE ELECTIONS.

Maybe not. But many others were happy to see Taliban fall. Let's not forget how the Afghan people were suffering under the Taliban tyranny.
I think the world should've reacted already in the 1990s to the Taliban regime. And I suppose Saddam should've been captured already in the Gulf war.

[Sis786]

Uhhhh.... :rollseyes I think killing people is still worse than writing insults about anybody or anything. I know muslims have great respect for their prophets, but the right to live should be respected too.

No i agree completley I dont think one is better than the other though, My Love and im sure other Muslims will agree for the Prophet PBHU is on a very HIGH level.

But i have said before the Messgae on those Billboards on Friday werent my views and NOT many Muslms views!

[Sis786]

Maybe not. But many others were happy to see Taliban fall. Let's not forget how the Afghan people were suffering under the Taliban tyranny.
I think the world should've reacted already in the 1990s to the Taliban regime. And I suppose Saddam should've been captured already in the Gulf war.

Hmm i agree to an extent, The Taliban were in power for a long time and My cousin who is from Afghanistan and has lived there for almost 25years tells me that the Taliban were perfect before and Crime Rate was low and the Proper Islamic way of life was being observed. THEN like any other Rule and Power it became Corrupt and thats when the trouble started and people were getting greedy and vicious.

[Sis786]

Well I wonder. Who decides what is or is not a fact??

Thats a open debate, But like Science and Religion One agaisnt the other Both parties have a debate to make and this is a debate which has been on going. What im trying to say HAVE free speech YES make a debate BUT is CARTOONS INSULTING PEOPLE the way of doing this!

Those cartoons were insulting. It was rude to draw them and publish them. ?

Damn Right!

But it would be hard to pass laws designed to stop that which did not also impede free speech. Any religious leader can claim that their religion demands belief in certain things. Christians used to be burnt for denying the Sun went around the Moon. So did Muslims.

No this is also wrong, But as i mentioned there is a manner which must be observed. We are not animals and we live in a world of tolerance. If the Danish had said "We think Muhammed is a Terroist" and had some sort of ground to stand on then THIS would have been a different matter. Muslims would have debated and so on. BUT TO stoop to making pictures mocking someone takes me back 18 years to Nursery!

I recommend it. But think what happens if Britain goes down the same route, or if a law is passed such as you would demand, making it illegal to vilify any other religion. Are you prepared for Muslims to be jailed for saying there is only one God? For saying that Muhammed is His prophet? For denying that Krishna exists? What do you believe as a Muslim that is not offensive to someone else? What do you believe as a Muslim that you think you could prove to a jury of twelve Christians?

No not at all, We as Muslims have ALWAYS enjoyed FREE SPEACH! But do you really see a Muslim starting a debate off by PUBLISHING A PICTURE OF A RELIGIOUS LEADER OR PROPHET IN A DEGRADING MANNER! Instead we use words and its done in a diplomatic way! As for law all im saying is that THERE should be a boundry for FREE SPEACH too!

[HeiGou]

Thats a open debate, But like Science and Religion One agaisnt the other Both parties have a debate to make and this is a debate which has been on going. What im trying to say HAVE free speech YES make a debate BUT is CARTOONS INSULTING PEOPLE the way of doing this!

But what do you do if in the course of the debate a scientist says something that a small group of radicals finds offensive and immediately sparks riots in the Middle East? Those cartoons did not, from what I can see, have any useful contribution to make to anything.

No this is also wrong, But as i mentioned there is a manner which must be observed. We are not animals and we live in a world of tolerance. If the Danish had said "We think Muhammed is a Terroist" and had some sort of ground to stand on then THIS would have been a different matter. Muslims would have debated and so on. BUT TO stoop to making pictures mocking someone takes me back 18 years to Nursery!

You would not be offended if someone said Muhammed was a terrorist? I think that if anyone said so here they would be thrown off in two seconds. There are websites maintained by people who do say precisely that, I shall name no names, and they get floods of death threats. There is a very real radical fringe out there and they do not like this sort of thing.

No not at all, We as Muslims have ALWAYS enjoyed FREE SPEACH! But do you really see a Muslim starting a debate off by PUBLISHING A PICTURE OF A RELIGIOUS LEADER OR PROPHET IN A DEGRADING MANNER! Instead we use words and its done in a diplomatic way! As for law all im saying is that THERE should be a boundry for FREE SPEACH too!

I do not see, from what I understand of Islamic history and law, Muslims have ever enjoyed free speech. People were always killed for saying the wrong thing. Muslims do not make pictures. Do I see Muslims start debates off by destroying Temples? By denying that other Gods exist? By insulting believers of other religions? History books are full of these sorts of things - as they are for Christians of course.

I hear what you are saying, but I think that you will have a problem defining a fair law. Sure you could pass the "no insults for Muhammed" law, but if you passed a "no insults for all religions" law, Islam would become illegal.

[Sis786]

But what do you do if in the course of the debate a scientist says something that a small group of radicals finds offensive and immediately sparks riots in the Middle East? Those cartoons did not, from what I can see, have any useful contribution to make to anything.

Scientist HAVE always said things that have been offensive to Religious Groups i.e Charles Darwin. This is one of the hottest debates In Islam (Science vs Islam) and NO one has killed over this. Muslims enjoy debate and that is the truth. But like YOU said These Cartoons made no contribution. This was a tool USED TO see how FAR can we PUSH the Muslims. And some saw that SOME of us can be PUSHED tooo far!

You would not be offended if someone said Muhammed was a terrorist? I think that if anyone said so here they would be thrown off in two seconds. There are websites maintained by people who do say precisely that, I shall name no names, and they get floods of death threats. There is a very real radical fringe out there and they do not like this sort of thing..

No what i am saying is that if someone said this We would respond in the manner it was said. If someone came and SHOUTED abuse and this was part of is OBVSIOULY we would be offened. But if someone was to say "I think Muhammed was a terroist becuase of the Jihad he was involved with" Thats a fair question. They have heard that the Prophet PBHU has been involved with War and they come up with this theory. Muslims would respond by saying well No THIS is what actully happened! You see what im saying is that CARTOONS and INSULTS is not a way to start a DEBATE! We are adults here and i think we can behave in a human manner!

I do not see, from what I understand of Islamic history and law, Muslims have ever enjoyed free speech. People were always killed for saying the wrong thing. Muslims do not make pictures. Do I see Muslims start debates off by destroying Temples? By denying that other Gods exist? By insulting believers of other religions? History books are full of these sorts of things - as they are for Christians of course. .

Yes! But where do you see this now. Your talking of a time when people werent very educated. Modern day is different to then. DO you see NOW Muslims destroying CHURCH and TEMPLES nope! In fact we have Mosques on the same streets there are CHURCHES! We have to adapt the way we deal with situations with time!

I hear what you are saying, but I think that you will have a problem defining a fair law. Sure you could pass the "no insults for Muhammed" law, but if you passed a "no insults for all religions" law, Islam would become illegal.

Why have you come to that conclusion. We dont insult OTHER religions. ALL religions say "THERE IS ONE GOD" fair play to them. We might DEBATE this BUT not insult this.

[HeiGou]

Scientist HAVE always said things that have been offensive to Religious Groups i.e Charles Darwin. This is one of the hottest debates In Islam (Science vs Islam) and NO one has killed over this. Muslims enjoy debate and that is the truth. But like YOU said These Cartoons made no contribution. This was a tool USED TO see how FAR can we PUSH the Muslims. And some saw that SOME of us can be PUSHED tooo far!

People have been killed over astronomy. You think you have been pushed too far? I wish this is as bad as it is going to get, but clearly it is going to get worse.

No what i am saying is that if someone said this We would respond in the manner it was said. If someone came and SHOUTED abuse and this was part of is OBVSIOULY we would be offened. But if someone was to say "I think Muhammed was a terroist becuase of the Jihad he was involved with" Thats a fair question. They have heard that the Prophet PBHU has been involved with War and they come up with this theory. Muslims would respond by saying well No THIS is what actully happened! You see what im saying is that CARTOONS and INSULTS is not a way to start a DEBATE! We are adults here and i think we can behave in a human manner!

But you can go to websites (which I shall not name for fear of being banned!) and see that in fact that is not what happens. You call Muhammed anything bad and people wish nasty fates involving red hot pokers and the like. Really. You would be amazed at the hatred that follows people who say even the mildest things about Muhammed. We can only have a debate if both sides can speak freely without fear. That does not happen.

Yes! But where do you see this now. Your talking of a time when people werent very educated. Modern day is different to then. DO you see NOW Muslims destroying CHURCH and TEMPLES nope! In fact we have Mosques on the same streets there are CHURCHES! We have to adapt the way we deal with situations with time!

In the West you have mosques and churches on the same street. But the Taliban destroyed the Buddhas at Bamiyan. There have been a spate of Church burnings in Pakistan. There is on-going destruction in the Chittagong Hill Tracts of all non-Muslim places of worship. It does not take many foolish radicals to destroy a Church.

Why have you come to that conclusion. We dont insult OTHER religions. ALL religions say "THERE IS ONE GOD" fair play to them. We might DEBATE this BUT not insult this.

I do not believe all religions say there is one God. I think Hindus say there are one hundred million. Surely, as a Muslim, you believe the Christians have lied and are lying about what the Bible says?

[Sis786]

People have been killed over astronomy. You think you have been pushed too far? I wish this is as bad as it is going to get, but clearly it is going to get worse.

I am not talking abou myself. I luckly live in a Society where I can be involved in Peaceful Demonstrations! BUT i was talking about those that burnt buildings, those that put thier lives at risk and have died, those that made comments which led them to be prostecuted!.

But you can go to websites (which I shall not name for fear of being banned!) and see that in fact that is not what happens. You call Muhammed anything bad and people wish nasty fates involving red hot pokers and the like. Really. You would be amazed at the hatred that follows people who say even the mildest things about Muhammed. We can only have a debate if both sides can speak freely without fear. That does not happen.?

I agree with you BUT people must repect our feeling towards Muhammed PBHU. Like if we were talking about SOMEONES mother. Even though i was going to say something hurtful i should respect that the person i am speaking to has a personal and close realtionship to this women and therefore say what i want BUT with that concept in mind i would NOT be insulting and be considerate in my speech!

In the West you have mosques and churches on the same street. But the Taliban destroyed the Buddhas at Bamiyan. There have been a spate of Church burnings in Pakistan. There is on-going destruction in the Chittagong Hill Tracts of all non-Muslim places of worship. It does not take many foolish radicals to destroy a Church.?

After 9/11 Mosques here were getting atatcked and Mosques in Western Countries were being targeted, Im not saying that ALL Muslims are friendly BUT majority are. There a Hundreds of Churches in Pakistan, The Holy sacred place of the Sikhs is there. NO ONE has ever destroyed that. BUT you hear of ONE event through the media and YOU think thats the whole picture!

I do not believe all religions say there is one God. I think Hindus say there are one hundred million. Surely, as a Muslim, you believe the Christians have lied and are lying about what the Bible says?

Nope The Bible was correct BUT people have chnaged this. This is also the thought of many CHRISTIANS! I might not believe in the beliefs of OTHER religions BUT i dont disrespect them. THERE is a difference!

[Ken Nielsen]

I would like some input from a devoted Muslim to what I have replied to a friend on another forum:

First, here is the comment from the friend:

"Not being funny Ken, but I'm not sure it's Muhammad that's the terrorist"

Here is my reply:

"You are exactly right. I should have expanded to include the innocence of the majority of perfectly fine and peaceful Muslims. It's not the Muhammad that the peaceful Muslims worship that is the subject of the cartoons, but the Muhammad that has been created by the terrorist mindset. I've heard the term 'hijacked the religion' which I think is exactly what has been done, even chanting the name of 'Allah' as they behead their victims on video tape. I don't think for a second that peaceful Muslims would claim that as their religion for one second.

I also want to make clear that I distinguish like night and day between the god of the peaceful Muslims and the god that the terrorists say is behind their rage on humanity."


Am I correct in my answer? To what degree? After reading the genuinely wonderful posts by many here, I want to have a solid defense for the welcome I have received here when I am asked for proof of a difference between the 'rage to convert or kill the infidel' the world sees, and the Muslims here I know to be peaceful and happy and supportive of life for all regardless of persuasion.

[seeker]

Salaam

Why should all muslims apologise for the actions of a few.

Because they are defiling your religion. I don't think you should apologize as much as I think you should distance yourselves from these "few".

[Ghazi]

Because they are defiling your religion. I don't think you should apologize as much as I think you should distance yourselves from these "few".

Salaam

I agree muslims should stay away from people with extream view.

[mahdisoldier19]

Well yes. America criticised the French ruling. Although the only countries in the world to ban Islamic clothing are Muslim ones (Turkey for instance). France just banned it in schools. The wife of the British Prime Minister is arguing in the House of Lords this week that Shabina Begun has the right to wear the jilbalb - even there the school accepted she had the right to wear Islamic clothing, just not the full jilbalb.

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4679058.stm



I do not know who SAS is, but if the Canadians do not want him he must have done something bad. They let everyone in. Clearly it is not right to be upset by this. Canada belongs to the Canadians. If I do not want someone in my house, it is my right to refuse entry. SAS, nor anyone else, does not have a right to enter my home just because they want to.



Yes of course they do. Find me a case in the UK or the US where a Muslim has been attacked on the streets and the police have refused to do anything.



Millions of Europeans took to the streets to protest the war in Iraq. Their payment was suicide bombs in London and Spain. For that matter Paris has been hit dozens of times and the French still supported the anti-War side. European pressure brought Israel to the negotiating table at Oslo and Madrid. I guess you can forget about that now. What thanks do Europeans get apart from bombs, riots and now threats?



Increasingly Europeans are saying the same thing. I think this is a bad idea. But think carefully about the implications of what you say. Think where this is likely to go.

If i were you i would keep your mouth shut on this topic because in USA. I KNOW SEVERAL MUSLIMS INCLUDING MYSELF WHO WERE BEATEN AND COPS DIDNT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. They just said its a matter of justificatin for 9/11. WHAT JUSTIFICATION? I DIDNT DO ANYTHING. And i have relatives who have experienced the same thing in Europe so take it easy buddy.

[seeker]

If i were you i would keep your mouth shut on this topic because in USA. I KNOW SEVERAL MUSLIMS INCLUDING MYSELF WHO WERE BEATEN AND COPS DIDNT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. They just said its a matter of justificatin for 9/11. WHAT JUSTIFICATION? I DIDNT DO ANYTHING. And i have relatives who have experienced the same thing in Europe so take it easy buddy.

Dude,

If that story is true, which I don't believe it is for a second, then you are a fool for not finding a lawyer that could sue the hell out of the cops and the city that did this.

[HeiGou]

I am not talking abou myself. I luckly live in a Society where I can be involved in Peaceful Demonstrations! BUT i was talking about those that burnt buildings, those that put thier lives at risk and have died, those that made comments which led them to be prostecuted!.

You live in a society where people are not jailed for cartoons any more. You do not think that is somehow related to your ability to protest peacefully?

I did not think you were talking about yourself. If you put religious people in charge of science or in charge of determining what scientists can or cannot say, they will decide that the Bible or the Quran or the Torah or whatever is a better source of Truth than experiments. And everywhere scientists have been forced to "respect" the feelings of the pious they have been persecuted. You can choose between respect for science or respect for religion. But I don't think you can choose both. Perhaps you can think of a society where that was true?

I agree with you BUT people must repect our feeling towards Muhammed PBHU. Like if we were talking about SOMEONES mother. Even though i was going to say something hurtful i should respect that the person i am speaking to has a personal and close realtionship to this women and therefore say what i want BUT with that concept in mind i would NOT be insulting and be considerate in my speech!

So you see the problem - I can have free speech as long as I do not say anything you find offensive. It is odd that you think British society should respect your mores, but you do not need to respect British ones. I agree it is rude to say bad things about peoples' mothers or about the religious figures. But society also needs to protect people who want to talk about peoples' mothers and religious figures.

After 9/11 Mosques here were getting atatcked and Mosques in Western Countries were being targeted, Im not saying that ALL Muslims are friendly BUT majority are. There a Hundreds of Churches in Pakistan, The Holy sacred place of the Sikhs is there. NO ONE has ever destroyed that. BUT you hear of ONE event through the media and YOU think thats the whole picture!

I think the holy place of the Sikhs is in Amristar in India. There are a lot fewer Churches now. There are vastly fewer Hindus and Sikhs. A few mosques were vandalised by criminals in the West. I do not just hear one event. I can read books - have you ever read the Chachnama? I can go, and have been, to cities in the Middle East. Can you name a city in the Middle East that is not full of Churches or Temples that are now mosques? How many mosques can you name that are now Churches?

[Sis786]

You live in a society where people are not jailed for cartoons any more. You do not think that is somehow related to your ability to protest peacefully??

Yes i do agree with this! But again it was a few that went overboard and errupted to violence NOT ALL. Majority of the demonstrations have been peaceful BUT its a shame that MEDIA pick and choose what they want the public to see.

I did not think you were talking about yourself. If you put religious people in charge of science or in charge of determining what scientists can or cannot say, they will decide that the Bible or the Quran or the Torah or whatever is a better source of Truth than experiments. And everywhere scientists have been forced to "respect" the feelings of the pious they have been persecuted. You can choose between respect for science or respect for religion. But I don't think you can choose both. Perhaps you can think of a society where that was true??

As a Muslim i obviously choose Religion over Science. But that doesnt mean I disrespect one. I might not agree with ALL the theories that some of the scienist come up with BUT i dont DISRESPECT them.

So you see the problem - I can have free speech as long as I do not say anything you find offensive. It is odd that you think British society should respect your mores, but you do not need to respect British ones. I agree it is rude to say bad things about peoples' mothers or about the religious figures. But society also needs to protect people who want to talk about peoples' mothers and religious figures.?

Nope i said YOU can say something that is offensive BUT there is a manner in which you must say it and a reason as to why you are saying it. In particular the Media need to be careful. They are aware that what they are printing in thier papers will be published and this can reflect opinion on a certain subject. Now if you have that POWER you must NOT abuse it! Thats MY POINT!

I think the holy place of the Sikhs is in Amristar in India. There are a lot fewer Churches now. There are vastly fewer Hindus and Sikhs. A few mosques were vandalised by criminals in the West. I do not just hear one event. I can read books - have you ever read the Chachnama? I can go, and have been, to cities in the Middle East. Can you name a city in the Middle East that is not full of Churches or Temples that are now mosques? How many mosques can you name that are now Churches?

Nope i havnt read this book. And i cant asnwer your question But if there are a majority of Muslims in a Country then is there a need to have hundreds and hundreds of Churches and other places of worship. In Muslims countries there are places of worship to accomadate the people that are NOT muslim. Execpet in Saudi where i dont think there are any!

But places like Pakistan and Malaysia and Indonesia have places of worship for people who are not Muslim. But there are MORE mosques are there are MORE Muslims. For example Britain when my dad came to this country he had to travel miles to go to a Mosques as there were few Muslims and therefore NOT a need for a mosque on every corner. Now Thanks be to Allah There are 78 mosques in the City i live in alone and this has increased due to the increase of Muslims!

[HeiGou]

Yes i do agree with this! But again it was a few that went overboard and errupted to violence NOT ALL. Majority of the demonstrations have been peaceful BUT its a shame that MEDIA pick and choose what they want the public to see.

The media is highly predictable - they will go with good pictures. And those protests were very good pictures. Deny them the pictures and they will not show the story. Unfortunately the peaceful majority do not provide good pictures. It is a shame, but I think that opinion within the Western Muslim community is changing and they are recognising that this sort of thing is counter-productive. I wonder how many opinion polls have been taken on issues like informing the police of terror plots, or support for Al-Qaeda.

As a Muslim i obviously choose Religion over Science. But that doesnt mean I disrespect one. I might not agree with ALL the theories that some of the scienist come up with BUT i dont DISRESPECT them.

I am not really talking about respect, but about the right of scientists to do their work. If a group of radicals decided that some forms of scientific research was un-Islamic, do you think they ought to do it or teach it?

Nope i said YOU can say something that is offensive BUT there is a manner in which you must say it and a reason as to why you are saying it. In particular the Media need to be careful. They are aware that what they are printing in thier papers will be published and this can reflect opinion on a certain subject. Now if you have that POWER you must NOT abuse it! Thats MY POINT!

I have no problem with that as a point and the newspapers in Britain have been careful. I don't think any of them have published it. But that goes both ways. That Danish imam had the power to take those cartoons to the Middle East and he chose to do so. He ought to have been more careful. Presumably he got what he wanted.

Nope i havnt read this book.

Well may I recommend you do and think about it from a Hindu perspective.

And i cant asnwer your question But if there are a majority of Muslims in a Country then is there a need to have hundreds and hundreds of Churches and other places of worship. In Muslims countries there are places of worship to accomadate the people that are NOT muslim. Execpet in Saudi where i dont think there are any!

As I understand Islamic law, non-Muslims are allowed to keep, but not repair, old religious sites that pre-date the Muslim conquest (as long as they are not pagan or Hindu or Buddhist), but not build new ones. Except in Saudi and the Arabian peninsular as a whole where all forms of religion except Islam is forbidden.

But places like Pakistan and Malaysia and Indonesia have places of worship for people who are not Muslim. But there are MORE mosques are there are MORE Muslims.

That is not really the point though is it?

For example Britain when my dad came to this country he had to travel miles to go to a Mosques as there were few Muslims and therefore NOT a need for a mosque on every corner. Now Thanks be to Allah There are 78 mosques in the City i live in alone and this has increased due to the increase of Muslims!

And the tolerance of the British. They could have enforced an equivalent law to the Muslims and not allowed the building of any new mosques. But they did not. They accepted Muslims, they respected their religion, they allowed them to build mosques and do dawa. They must be pretty annoyed by now that their hospitality has been abused so badly.

[Christian_dove]

The Taliban in Afghanistan destroyed some of the most valuable and important religious icons of the world. I saw them blast the statues into pieces with hand held bazookas. What a shame, I mean, I am not a buddhist, but those were really beautiful architectural wonders...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/science...an-buddhas.htm

[mizan_aliashraf]

They are threatening to kill us, because muslims are burning our flags and burning our embassies.

'Our' Flags?' Subhanallah, you are a Muslim! The only flag you should consider to be yours is the black one with the Shahadah.
'Our Embassies?' You are a Muslim. You may not live in a muslim country, but you are a muslim so it is not 'your embassy'
There is no nationalism in islam
Wassalam

[Christian_dove]

'Our' Flags?' Subhanallah, you are a Muslim! The only flag you should consider to be yours is the black one with the Shahadah.
'Our Embassies?' You are a Muslim. You may not live in a muslim country, but you are a muslim so it is not 'your embassy'
There is no nationalism in islam
Wassalam

No offense, but what utter nonsense. A muslim living in Denmark is obviously danish. A christian living in Ethiopa is Ethiopian. You are confusing nationality with faith. These are two completely different things...

[Ghazi]

No offense, but what utter nonsense. A muslim living in Denmark is obviously danish. A christian living in Ethiopa is Ethiopian. You are confusing nationality with faith. These are two completely different things...

Salaam I agree but and disagree, today muslims have been divided by culture and nationality, I think muslims should remember their culture, but as the brother said above should unite under one flag.

[mizan_aliashraf]

Peace
We as muslims are not divided by colour, race, sex, disability or anything else. We all unite under the banner of our shahadah (testimony of faith). that is what i meant about the danish flag and embassy. Its just sad that muslims today are so divided.

[Sis786]

No offense, but what utter nonsense. A muslim living in Denmark is obviously danish. A christian living in Ethiopa is Ethiopian. You are confusing nationality with faith. These are two completely different things...

You cant have both! All Muslims idenitiy is thier religion Nationality is something on our Passports it doesnt mean anything! What i am trying to say YES i am a Muslim and YES im living in Britain. I consider myslef a Muslim British, If i was to leave Britain i wont remain a British BUT my Faith will go with me and this is the true idenity.

Its Nationality and Racism that leads to Hatred amoung people. Look at Malcom X he went to Hajj and he was overcome with the way a Black Brother Stood next to a WHITE Brother and HOW even the ROYAL FAMILY (SAUDI) Have the same colour and gown as the SHOE CLEANER FROM MOROCCO.

Islam is about Peace and Peace can only be achieved if we break the borders that divide us, RACE, SEX, AGE, etc etc

[Christian_dove]

You cant have both! All Muslims idenitiy is thier religion Nationality is something on our Passports it doesnt mean anything! What i am trying to say YES i am a Muslim and YES im living in Britain. I consider myslef a Muslim British, If i was to leave Britain i wont remain a British BUT my Faith will go with me and this is the true idenity.

Its Nationality and Racism that leads to Hatred amoung people. Look at Malcom X he went to Hajj and he was overcome with the way a Black Brother Stood next to a WHITE Brother and HOW even the ROYAL FAMILY (SAUDI) Have the same colour and gown as the SHOE CLEANER FROM MOROCCO.

Islam is about Peace and Peace can only be achieved if we break the borders that divide us, RACE, SEX, AGE, etc etc

Well, in my opinion, a big part of breaking those borders can only happen when you are able to become a part of the society where you and your children actually spend most of your time (in your "new" home country) in stead of physically and mentally separating yourself from it, as many muslims do. There are plenty of problems amongst muslim parents here, some refuse to learn our language, they deny their children to spend time with norwegian children, parents don't show up at school meetings (in some cases, not their kids in school either...), hence not following up their kids education, they have made parts of the bigger cities into ghettos, in stead of moving to for instance north or west in the country, were there are more jobs available and clean, beautiful nature.

Islam has to open up, otherwise I'm afraid good integration will be impossible. The muslims from Pakistan living here are actually more conservative then those back in Pakistan. This is because most pakistanis came from the countryside, and while Pakistan itself has moved further and become more modern, these muslims living here are stuck back in the 70'ies, still following traditions Pakistan followed 30 years ago, thinking this is what it is like back home. We are all confused. :)

[UmmKhadi]

'Our' Flags?' Subhanallah, you are a Muslim! The only flag you should consider to be yours is the black one with the Shahadah.
'Our Embassies?' You are a Muslim. You may not live in a muslim country, but you are a muslim so it is not 'your embassy'
There is no nationalism in islam
Wassalam

If I was in lets say Syria, and needed help because I lets say lost my passport... Where should I go?

Yes exactly, to my homelands embassy... Norwegian embassy, they are the only one who legally can help me get a new passport.

[UmmKhadi]

Salaam I agree but and disagree, today muslims have been divided by culture and nationality, I think muslims should remember their culture, but as the brother said above should unite under one flag.

I know what you mean, and I agree. But at the same time, I once converted to islam. Allah only knows the future, we have no guarantee that we will remain muslims. Ofcourse thats what we all wants, and Alhamdulillah, but same time, we have no guarantee... But I will always be what they so "nicely" call "Ethnic Norwegian". I am a Norwegian, nothing can change that. I might change my citizenship, but I will not really *be* something else. Unless my name was Micael Jackson, and I could change myself from a pretty, young, black man, to an ugly, old white woman...

[songinwind]

Well, in my opinion, a big part of breaking those borders can only happen when you are able to become a part of the society where you and your children actually spend most of your time (in your "new" home country) in stead of physically and mentally separating yourself from it, as many muslims do. There are plenty of problems amongst muslim parents here, some refuse to learn our language, they deny their children to spend time with norwegian children, parents don't show up at school meetings (in some cases, not their kids in school either...), hence not following up their kids education, they have made parts of the bigger cities into ghettos, in stead of moving to for instance north or west in the country, were there are more jobs available and clean, beautiful nature.

Islam has to open up, otherwise I'm afraid good integration will be impossible. The muslims from Pakistan living here are actually more conservative then those back in Pakistan. This is because most pakistanis came from the countryside, and while Pakistan itself has moved further and become more modern, these muslims living here are stuck back in the 70'ies, still following traditions Pakistan followed 30 years ago, thinking this is what it is like back home. We are all confused. :)

This is really intresting comment you made:) .....let me ask you---Did you go to the people you are talking about and put your hand out in friendship?:) ....as I live here in American, and been in a new area:rollseyes , and i never saw one hand out, or one smile---what I did see, was rude stares, glares, grabbing of kids with "Don't go near thoese peopel"...You know what I am talking about, right:) .....
I am so Happy that I am a "Muslim", alhamdolillah...:) ....because you can't hurt me..We are surrounded by something you may never know or understand:) ..The beautiful life of Islam....and if we stay to ourselves, maybe , just maybe---we were forced too:) ..no matter what u think, people do feel and know when to stay away...and its all about "attitude":) ..which is all I have seen from you in your posts here:) ....This is My homeland, and just converting to islam, I feel maybe 1/2 of what my fellow muslims feel moving here from another country :X ...
I think it better to ask ourselves "what can I do", instead of "they should, and they shouldn't".....so easy, like islam is---reach out your hand to that new person near u home,,,give a smile...just a little one..to one u see on the street, or stores...You might be shocked:rollseyes :) ..peace to you...:)

[Christian_dove]

I am so Happy that I am a "Muslim", alhamdolillah...:) ....because you can't hurt me..We are surrounded by something you may never know or understand:)

Why would I wanna hurt you? Are you paranoid? How can I reach out to muslim imigrants, I live on the country side, they live in their self made ghettos... I would not go to live with my children in the middle of a big city with all its traffic and pollution. And I don't understand why a whole bunch of muslims would either. And it is not much I can do for those parents who keep their children home from schools or just ignore meetings and following up their kids. I can't do it for them, you know... A "hand in friendship" from my side wont make much of a difference.

"Don't go near thoese peopel"...You know what I am talking about, right

No, as a matter of fact i don't. My kids play with kids from other cultures every single day. It's not a problem for me at all and no matter how much you seem to "know" me, I don't have an "attitude" towards people based on their belief or color, in fact my own children are a blend of two cultures, so just cut it.

You are surrounded by something I may never know or understand??? Oh, that sounds wonderful, now I feel terrible for not being able to share that fantastic "something" with you... Stop looking down on people who don't share your religion! I could say the exact same thing to you, I am surounded by something you may "never know or understand", but it sounds so pathetic I wouldn't. It isn't very respectfull.

[songinwind]

Why would I wanna hurt you? Are you paranoid? How can I reach out to muslim imigrants, I live on the country side, they live in their self made ghettos... I would not go to live with my children in the middle of a big city with all its traffic and pollution. And I don't understand why a whole bunch of muslims would either. And it is not much I can do for those parents who keep their children home from schools or just ignore meetings and following up their kids. I can't do it for them, you know... A "hand in friendship" from my side wont make much of a difference.

No, as a matter of fact i don't. My kids play with kids from other cultures every single day. It's not a problem for me at all and no matter how much you seem to "know" me, I don't have an "attitude" towards people based on their belief or color, in fact my own children are a blend of two cultures, so just cut it.

You are surrounded by something I may never know or understand??? Oh, that sounds wonderful, now I feel terrible for not being able to share that fantastic "something" with you... Stop looking down on people who don't share your religion! I could say the exact same thing to you, I am surounded by something you may "never know or understand", but it sounds so pathetic I wouldn't. It isn't very respectfull.

Salam...I am a very respectful person...and I have sat here, seeing u being very rude, with "sly" remarks ....and I am still respectful..and when I spoke of things,," I was talking about people as a whole", not to u solo".....anything I said,,"it was about society as a whole". and not to u --But to a whole group of you's"....and one thing I am not is rude, to you or anyone, I don't even know you...
I look down on no-one...why would I ? In Gods eyes we are all equal...and given "free will" to make choices....you make yours, and thats your right...as I also have the same right...
I can say this ..as I was once where you are...and I got to see and experence the "love" :) of christains...I chose to be muslim, where I feel things, that u may feel in your own choice of religions....this makes no one better than the other.....
I do have one bit of advice for you tho, "where I am concerned".....Please read what I write carefully, as people tend to have "tunnel vision", which I see you did, as You missed many words I wrote, and picked what you pleased,,,,,,peace to you...and my responces to you have ended...

[Christian_dove]

Salam...I am a very respectful person...and I have sat here, seeing u being very rude, with "sly" remarks ....and I am still respectful..and when I spoke of things,," I was talking about people as a whole", not to u solo".....anything I said,,"it was about society as a whole". and not to u --But to a whole group of you's"....and one thing I am not is rude, to you or anyone, I don't even know you...
I look down on no-one...why would I ? In Gods eyes we are all equal...and given "free will" to make choices....you make yours, and thats your right...as I also have the same right...
I can say this ..as I was once where you are...and I got to see and experence the "love" :) of christains...I chose to be muslim, where I feel things, that u may feel in your own choice of religions....this makes no one better than the other.....
I do have one bit of advice for you tho, "where I am concerned".....Please read what I write carefully, as people tend to have "tunnel vision", which I see you did, as You missed many words I wrote, and picked what you pleased,,,,,,peace to you...and my responces to you have ended...

Sorry if I appear blunt to you, I just don't like to cover up my meanings behind a hazy wall of words. And I am a man, we are as you may now, often a lot more impatient and abrupt than women. That's why we have you to keep the balance. Bear over with me. :)

[songinwind]

Sorry if I appear blunt to you, I just don't like to cover up my meanings behind a hazy wall of words.

whats worse than hazy wall of words....is shy, rude remarks...:) , as I said...This topic as far as you and me, has ended..I am not here to argur religion...But to learn, and share...a far as why you are here, only you know.....:) , peace to you... Allah Hafiz

[HeiGou]

You cant have both! All Muslims idenitiy is thier religion Nationality is something on our Passports it doesnt mean anything! What i am trying to say YES i am a Muslim and YES im living in Britain. I consider myslef a Muslim British, If i was to leave Britain i wont remain a British BUT my Faith will go with me and this is the true idenity.

At the moment that is your right. And I for one hope you will always retain that right. However if you do not feel yourself to be British in any real sense, how can you complain if more and more British people do not see you as British in any real sense? You should be able to have both. For the moment you can have both.

Its Nationality and Racism that leads to Hatred amoung people. Look at Malcom X he went to Hajj and he was overcome with the way a Black Brother Stood next to a WHITE Brother and HOW even the ROYAL FAMILY (SAUDI) Have the same colour and gown as the SHOE CLEANER FROM MOROCCO.

I would say it is not nationalism or racism that is the problem but the hatred that lies in the hearts of all men and which not enough of us do enough to root out. I think Malcolm X would agree with me. After all it was not those racists that killed him, but his fellow Muslims. Islam was not enough to over come their hatred.

Islam is about Peace and Peace can only be achieved if we break the borders that divide us, RACE, SEX, AGE, etc etc

[Sis786]

At the moment that is your right. And I for one hope you will always retain that right. However if you do not feel yourself to be British in any real sense, how can you complain if more and more British people do not see you as British in any real sense? You should be able to have both. For the moment you can have both.

At the momement i can BUT looking at the way things are going i think there will be a time that many mulsims will not be able to pratice thier religion properly and live in this country! Im sure at a time like that All Muslims would need to make a decision and i know which way im going!


I would say it is not nationalism or racism that is the problem but the hatred that lies in the hearts of all men and which not enough of us do enough to root out. I think Malcolm X would agree with me. After all it was not those racists that killed him, but his fellow Muslims. Islam was not enough to over come their hatred.

Hmmm I suppose BUT Islam is meant to get rid of that evil. Those that still find this evil in thier hearts are missing something out in the way they are practsing thier religion!

[Kittygyal]

well here we go am practising me religion :)

[Christian_dove]

They are sorry:

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...cle1217889.ece

He is probably also sorry (but for other reasons..):

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...cle1223819.ece

And finally the danish imams are sorry:

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ur...cle1224007.ece (this article will probably be translated in Aftenposten in a day or so, it is to be found in the english section..)

They say that they are willing to take 1/3 of the blame for the riots. Actually I think they deserve to be spanked with a frozen salmon and put behind bars for at least 20 years for causing the death of lots of muslims throughout the world. Luckily (yes, luckily!) as far as I know most of those who were killed were violent and fanatic participants of demonstrations, and as it is written, "if you live by the sword you will die by the sword", they did.

[abdul Majid]

hey dove i didnt know you were a judge????

[Christian_dove]

hey dove i didnt know you were a judge????

Lots of things you don't know about me. Did you know I can find water with a wooden stick? :)

[abdul Majid]

hey can you split it in to like moses

[Christian_dove]

Probably. If I need it like he did.

[abdul Majid]

lol

[songinwind]

lol

I can't tell if u 2 are now joking with each other, or making "sly " remarks as u did with me dove:rollseyes

[Christian_dove]

This is completely outside the topic (sorry) but the latest spam mail I got was this:

http://www.tshirthell.com/miscpages/newshirt588n.htm