My failure to understand

[McCool]

Hello,

I want to start this off by saying if you read something I wrote and feel offended by it, it was not my intent. I am not judging rather I am curious due to my failure to understand the circumstances entirely. I understand that some of what I say may be very generalized. As well I realize that most people on this forum are probably rather well educated people. So I guess I am on with what I came here to say:

I am 19 years old; I am a Canadian College student. I was raised in a small town in southern Ontario in a broken Catholic home, however I associate myself to no organized faith. I would say by no means am I literate in the Muslim faith, but I stay very current with global events and I would say that I am an open minded person.

The problem I've been having recently stems from years of 'Muslim' (generalizing, I know) activity to which I do not understand. Of course I am referring to conflict within the Middle East and around the world. Most recently, the response of Muslims to the comic that has come out of Denmark. I have no trouble understanding how many people could take these images to be offensive. I do have a problem understanding the seemingly common Muslim’s response to the release of the comic.

After hearing about the comic’s release I must admit, I found it... funny. Following the news after its release, I take it more serious, almost as if what the comic displayed was truthful. Now before you get mad at me allow me to explain. I've been watching the Muslim response from my community, Canada as a whole, and globally (as best I can) and I must say I am disgusted with how many Muslims are dealing with this situation.

I see images of people burning flags, rioting, destroying property and harming others. Threats are being made, Boycotting is taking place and people have died in some of these instances. It seems the majority of the Muslim community believes this behavior is acceptable. I heard a Muslim politician say (I am paraphrasing) that though these actions are wrong, they are justifiable due to the anger of Muslims.

Does this strike the people here as being wrong? That anger and destruction are justifiable so long as one is offended? In my experience this isn't uncommon, it seems to me that most Muslims take things to extremes faster and more viciously then any other group of people and it is accepted within their community.

I know that the people doing these terrible things are extremist and I know that other religions have extremism too. It occurs to me that the Muslim faith seems to promote extremism and this kind behavior reminiscent of small children fighting over a favored toy.

I would like feedback, I want to know what you people think of what I have said and what you feel about the current situation.

[aljawaad]

Well just tell me how would you feel if i make fun of your religion? No forget about your religion lets talk about your family; how would you feel if someone whom you doesnt know make fun of your family?
I'm sure you'll get mad at that person. Well that's what's happening all around the world. Muslims are being insulted everywhere. They cant bear it any longer. That's a way for them of expressing their anger and frustration.
I agree with you that some of the actions of these muslims are unacceptable; e.g destroying property of innocent people and harming innocent people. Islam is a religion of peace and does not tolerate injustice. However these people are doing these actions at their own risk; that's not the real image of Islam.
Me too i feel like venting my anger by breaking things etc.. But Allah has said in the Holy Qur'an; "Surely Allah is with those who are patient", so i prefer being patient.

Hope that this helps you.

MAy Allah keep me on the straight path and guide your heart.

Peace.:happy:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi McCool,
Since this is a common question new members are asking, I'll link you to one of previous posts:
http://www.islamicboard.com/176386-post34.html

Regards

[- Qatada -]

Hey McCool.


The reason why its caused alot of anger among the muslims is because of what the images were representing, and that was totally opposite to what our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and his beloved family) was/what he did.

You can even read the biography from this link and realise that everything the media is portraying against the muslims is totally against what islam allows/disallows etc.

Life of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his beloved family)
http://www.islamicboard.com/prophet-...mmad-saws.html


Its against islam to draw/create images of Allaah Almighty (God), nor of his beloved Prophets (peace and blessings be upon them) [this includes Jesus, Moses, Muhammad (peace be upon them all) etc.]


Even though all this has happened, the muslims shouldn't destroy buildings, harm the innocent etc. Because this is transgressing the limits, and this is not what our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) did when he was insulted (nor did the other prophets in their time.) Therefore we should boycott the goods of the countries that approved of what happened, but this doesn't mean that we should commit violent acts; as this is totally against what islam allows.

Instead we should use calm/safe measures, but at the same time - show how we've lost our trust in the people who allowed this to happen. Like i've said before; eg. through boycotting their products etc. But we should not destroy buildings, kill innocent people etc.


This is because in the qur'an Allaah Almighty (God) says:


On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (5:32)



Peace.

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[M H Kahn]

Hello,

I am 19 years old; I am a Canadian College student. I was raised in a small town in southern Ontario in a broken Catholic home, however I associate myself to no organized faith.
******************************
I see images of people burning flags, rioting, destroying property and harming others. Threats are being made, Boycotting is taking place and people have died in some of these instances. It seems the majority of the Muslim community believes this behavior is acceptable. I heard a Muslim politician say (I am paraphrasing) that though these actions are wrong, they are justifiable due to the anger of Muslims.

__________________________________________________ ____________

Who You Are:

You have stated that you were raised in a Catholic home and yet you are an atheist. I think the same would apply to the politician, who enjoyed the comic in the same facetiousness as yours; he might have been raised in a Muslim home but has neither learnt Islam nor reverted to it. In other words, he might be one of your peers with regard to religious faith. As you do not believe in the Creator, the Prophets, the Angels, the Revelations, the Resurrection, the Hereafter, and the Judgement etc, it is quite natural for you and your peers in the atheism to discover greatest materials of enjoyment in the cartooned satire of the last prophet, Muhammed(pbuh), sent by God for guidance of the entire mankind from his time till the Day of Destruction, which you and your satirist peers don't care.

Who Muslims Are:
All the people from the first human, Adam, to those who will survive upto the Day of Destruction may be categorized into (1) Believers, (2) Misbelievers and (3) Disbelievers, of whom you are now one. The believers were always in the past, are in the present, and will be in the future known as Muslims, meaning submitters to God. Islam and Muslim are Arabic words for submission and submitter to God. The present day Muslims, who are guided by the Quran and the guidance of the final prophet, Muhammed(pbuh), believe that all the previous Messangers of God from Nuah(pbuh) to Jesus(pbuh) also came with the same message that Muhammed(pbuh) was sent with. They all came with the message to ask the strayed humans of their times and climes to believe in God Who had existed before there was any creation and will exist when the entire creation will be destroyed at His command. He is One and Only having neither any parent nor any children. He has no equal and He alone should be worshipped by the mankind. This is, in short, the message of Islam (meaning submission to the will of God) that all the messangers of God came with. Those who accepted the message without any concoction are Believers ,or for that matter, Muslims. Therefore, to a Muslim, all the messangers of God from Nuah (pbuh) to Muhammed(pbuh) are equally beloved and respectable. By satiring Muhammed(pbuh), your cartoonist has satired all the prophets of God, all of whom were carriers of the same message, as well as God Himself. Can you now imagine how the Believers should re-act when the divine code of faith and conduct (ordained for the first human on earth to the last ones surviving till the Day of Destruction) is under a cartoonist's satire? This is a direct attack against God and the believers are ordained by God not to hesitate even to die for His cause. To quote in the words of God:Verily God hath bought of the Believers their lives and their properties for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise: so they fight in the way of Allah and slay and are slain. It (i.e. the promise of Paradise) is a covenant which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Injil and the Qur’an. And who is more faithful unto his covenant than God? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph. (Al-Tawbah 9: 111) God has further stated: Thou wilt indeed find them, of all people, most greedy of life,-even more than the idolaters: Each one of them wishes He could be given a life of a thousand years: But the grant of such life will not save him from (due) punishment. For God sees well all that they do. Say O Muhammad: "Whoever is the enemy of Jibrã'el (Gabriel) should know that he revealed this Qur'an to your heart by God’s command, which confirms previous scriptures, and is a guidance and good news for the believers." Let them know that whoever is an enemy to God, His angels, His Messangers, Jibrã'el (Gabriel) and Mika‘el (Michael); Allah is an enemy to such unbelievers.[Al Baqara 2:96-98]

:hiding:

[north_malaysian]

If you count those who burn the flags, embassies etc. i think it's only 0.001% of Muslims.

But boycotting is on the way, the percentage of Muslims boycotting Danish goods should be higher i think!:rollseyes

[McCool]

I'll go in order here

1) aljawaad - I would make it my business if someone insulted my family, religious views, political views, moral views etc. to be as un-offended as possible. Being mad, offended and angry at everything gets nothing done, being mad is just a tool used for justifying something that has been done. I also believe that nearly all of the actions of Muslims in regards to this situation are unreasonable (as apposed to the "some" you said). As well the actions they carry out do not limit the risk to themselves. I think it is safe to say that most of the rioters are outwardly aggressive. I agree with the quote you gave me from the Qur'an in regards to being patient and I wish more Muslims took that stand, for I feel it to be much healthier.

2) Fi_Sabilillah - I understand your argument and it is a good one. However, would you not agree that those who released the comic publicly are not Muslims (or Muslims in good faith)? Thusly they are not subject to the rules and stipulations of the Qur'an, being that they are entitled their right to freedom of religion which is given to them by God himself? I feel that though the comic does not conform to what you believe it should conform too, it does not threaten your views or harm you in any way, so why must a war be started against it?

3) M H Kahn - You make too many assumptions. I am not catholic this is true, I spent many years in that faith and I do not entirely agree with its teachings. I am certainly not atheist. I have my own belief system which does not conform to any other organized religion that I know of. I do believe in a creator and I recognize this life he has given me as a holy gift. I believe in a final 'judgment' per say and an 'afterlife' as well.

I take humour in the comic not because of who it portrayed. I would think it was funny even if it was a picture of me or my own mother instead; even if it was Jesus (who I do believe in). I am just a light hearted person overall. With the way you talk, its sounds like you are a man who is quick to judgment and (possibly) anger. This is what I believe the comic was trying to satire. You said yourself "This is a direct attack against God and the believers are ordained by God not to hesitate even to die for His cause.". I think it is unhealthy to take this comic as and 'attack'. Is that not a little extreme given the fact that the Cartoon does not harm your belief system? And why does God want you to die for him? If he wanted you dead he would make it so, if he wanted the men from Denmark dead, he would make it so. I believe that you are very quick to be offended which is the problem at present. Also, if your belief system is correct will this man not spend eternity in a hell of his own making whereas you will live in paradise? Why be angry it accomplishes nothing.


4) The amount of Muslims who buy Danish goods, I bet, do not make up enough of the Danish market to really have them feel the pressure put on by a boycott. Besides is a boycott not a tad extreme because you are boycotting more then just the people who made the statement? Boycotting all of Denmark's products because of what one person did makes no more sense then a person hating Muslims because of what 9 Muslims did, does it not?

Once again I'd love to have more feedback. Thank you.

[north_malaysian]

Boycotting something is freedom of expression too, at least nobody died of it.:rollseyes

[McCool]

Agreed...

[Noor]

I've been watching the Muslim response from my community, Canada as a whole, and globally (as best I can) and I must say I am disgusted with how many Muslims are dealing with this situation.

Hello

As a fellow Canadian, I would really appreciate it if you could point out specific actions Muslims in your community have done thus far that you are disgusted with.

[abdul Majid]

I just wanna say to you, that this cartoon or comic strip, is extremely out of the question..This man that the are trying to portray, Prophet Mohamed(pbh),
was the most pious man you will ever here about in history..These poeple, with no respect, are drawings pictures associated with bombs in a turban and such of this Prphet of GOD (pbh)... i mean how much do the muslims all over the world have to tolerate, when these people wanna make us the center of attention, when they disgrace our religion, go to war with us in several countries, and mind you some of these countries have no armys, but its still called a WAR...OK OF CORSE PPL ARE MAD...what do u want them to be like ohh haaa thattss funny...of corse not we love this man ...he is a PROPHET..we wouldnt do that about JESUS OR MOSES OR ABRAHAM OR DAVID OR ANY PROPHET, BECUASE WE BELEIVE IN ALL OF THEM....Islam is submission to God and peace, but you cannot attack our right to worship one God, with no partners and Mohamed (pbh)IS HIS MESSENGER!!!

[M H Kahn]

I'll go in order here

1) aljawaad - I would make it my business if someone insulted my family, religious views, political views, moral views etc. to be as un-offended as possible. Being mad, offended and angry at everything gets nothing done, being mad is just a tool used for justifying something that has been done. I also believe that nearly all of the actions of Muslims in regards to this situation are unreasonable (as apposed to the "some" you said). As well the actions they carry out do not limit the risk to themselves. I think it is safe to say that most of the rioters are outwardly aggressive. I agree with the quote you gave me from the Qur'an in regards to being patient and I wish more Muslims took that stand, for I feel it to be much healthier.

2) Fi_Sabilillah - I understand your argument and it is a good one. However, would you not agree that those who released the comic publicly are not Muslims (or Muslims in good faith)? Thusly they are not subject to the rules and stipulations of the Qur'an, being that they are entitled their right to freedom of religion which is given to them by God himself? I feel that though the comic does not conform to what you believe it should conform too, it does not threaten your views or harm you in any way, so why must a war be started against it?

3) M H Kahn - You make too many assumptions. I am not catholic this is true, I spent many years in that faith and I do not entirely agree with its teachings. I am certainly not atheist. I have my own belief system which does not conform to any other organized religion that I know of. I do believe in a creator and I recognize this life he has given me as a holy gift. I believe in a final 'judgment' per say and an 'afterlife' as well.

I take humour in the comic not because of who it portrayed. I would think it was funny even if it was a picture of me or my own mother instead; even if it was Jesus (who I do believe in). I am just a light hearted person overall. With the way you talk, its sounds like you are a man who is quick to judgment and (possibly) anger. This is what I believe the comic was trying to satire. You said yourself "This is a direct attack against God and the believers are ordained by God not to hesitate even to die for His cause.". I think it is unhealthy to take this comic as and 'attack'. Is that not a little extreme given the fact that the Cartoon does not harm your belief system? And why does God want you to die for him? If he wanted you dead he would make it so, if he wanted the men from Denmark dead, he would make it so. I believe that you are very quick to be offended which is the problem at present. Also, if your belief system is correct will this man not spend eternity in a hell of his own making whereas you will live in paradise? Why be angry it accomplishes nothing.


4) The amount of Muslims who buy Danish goods, I bet, do not make up enough of the Danish market to really have them feel the pressure put on by a boycott. Besides is a boycott not a tad extreme because you are boycotting more then just the people who made the statement? Boycotting all of Denmark's products because of what one person did makes no more sense then a person hating Muslims because of what 9 Muslims did, does it not?

Once again I'd love to have more feedback. Thank you.

You have signified in your attempted rebuttal that your freedom of speech enjoins you to call someone, who is obedient to God and His Messanger, a son of ----- and he will, in retort, hug you caressingly. Is it so? What if the same is done to you?

[Selising]

Mr McCool, whom do you respect most in your life? Your grandfather? Your preacher at the church? Your best teacher? Name a person who never commit a sin. A person who never say bad thing, a person who always smile, a person who will kiss the orphan, a very soft spoken person, a person who feed an old sick lady whom once put a lot of broken glass(for example) on the small path he always use to go home. Name a person Mr McCool.

A husband who never scold the wife, a husband who will be fasting if the wife did not cook anything for him, a husband who help his wife in house chores.

A man who entertain his friend and make everybody feels that they are his best friend.

A man that each of us love vey mush is Muhammad PBUH. We respect him, we love him. Some of us do not have any vision for life before we know ISlam. What is the target of your life? Why are you here(in this world)? When we learn Islam, deeply in Islam we see so many thing. It is so peaceful when we are in Islam. Who is the one that sacrifice his life, his wealth and everything so that we someday after over 1400 year have the opportunity to know Islam, to embrace Islam, to love Allah?

Can you accept it when people make joke of a person whom you respect very much. Can you imagine somebody draw your picture making love with your own mom? (to that extreme) Will you laugh at it? Will you get angry?

You wont feel anything if I draw a picture of your sister naked, I'm sure of that. It is western culture. But for us if you draw a picture of my sister in that way, I'll kill you man. It is offensive. It is not a joke. It is not funny. I will be very angry, extremely angry. As a woman, of course I'll cry.

What more seeing a well respected men being potrayed that ugly. A dog pissed on Allah's name, a pig wrote the Quran? -------! When somebody punch you, won't you punch back? That is natural. Or will you let them beat you till death? The next morning you and your friends' picture appear on paper. 10 man beat to death by a man. What will the readers of the newspaper say?

Hey, I went to Montreal on September last year and somebody want to beat me when I perform solah near a church

[Malsidabym]

Selising,

You wont feel anything if I draw a picture of your sister naked, I'm sure of that. It is western culture.

Do you really think that everybody in western culture is like this? This is a very general way of thinking of a group of people, and you run the risk of others believing that you are a bigot. I am a westerner, and I cam assure you I would be very offended of such a drawing, and so would most of the people I know. Just for the record, I am not a muslim but also think that the cartoons of Muhammud were very disrespectful.

[Malaikah]

Name a person who never commit a sin. A person who never say bad thing, a person who always smile, a person who will kiss the orphan, a very soft spoken person, a person who feed an old sick lady whom once put a lot of broken glass(for example) on the small path he always use to go home. Name a person Mr McCool.

A husband who never scold the wife, a husband who will be fasting if the wife did not cook anything for him, a husband who help his wife in house chores.

A man who entertain his friend and make everybody feels that they are his best friend.

:sl: MashaAllah!!!

I understand your argument and it is a good one. However, would you not agree that those who released the comic publicly are not Muslims (or Muslims in good faith)? Thusly they are not subject to the rules and stipulations of the Qur'an, being that they are entitled their right to freedom of religion which is given to them by God himself? I feel that though the comic does not conform to what you believe it should conform too, it does not threaten your views or harm you in any way, so why must a war be started against it?

Hello McCool. Just because the publisher was not a Muslim, it does not mean they have the right to publish an absolutly offensive cartoon, which portrays the prophet pbuh in a totally FALSE way- making it a both LIE and an INSULT. You may argue for 'freedom of speech', but with such freedom comes responsibilty. No one has the right to unjustly degrade anyone else like that.

it does not threaten your views or harm you in any way

Not true. The cartoon is obvious slander against Islam. It will result with people who already have a false idea about what Islam really is (due to the media) having this false impression emphasised, creating more misunderstandings and intolerance towards Muslims. (though fortunetly, alhamdulilah, it has also results with some people wishing to genuinly leanr more about Islam).

Furthermore, the violent reaction of certian Muslims was uncalled for- this is NOT a justifiable reaction by the Muslims and does not represent Islam.

You would not judge a car by its driver, so dont judge Islam by the Muslims. Judge it by the Quran (holy book) and Sunnah (example of the prophet pbuh)

Peace. :)

[Selising]

Selising,Do you really think that everybody in western culture is like this? This is a very general way of thinking of a group of people, and you run the risk of others believing that you are a bigot. I am a westerner, and I cam assure you I would be very offended of such a drawing, and so would most of the people I know. Just for the record, I am not a muslim but also think that the cartoons of Muhammud were very disrespectful.

I'm sorry for my generalisation, but I understand that westerner just don't mind wearing bikini in public. Seeing or doing it. Wearing that 2 piece for me is just as good as wearing nothing.

My ultimate point is, what is normal to most westerner (u and some r exluded), what they see as funny, what they see as jokes, is not normal to us, is not funny and offensive

[aljawaad]

I'll go in order here

1) aljawaad - I would make it my business if someone insulted my family, religious views, political views, moral views etc. to be as un-offended as possible. Being mad, offended and angry at everything gets nothing done, being mad is just a tool used for justifying something that has been done. I also believe that nearly all of the actions of Muslims in regards to this situation are unreasonable (as apposed to the "some" you said). As well the actions they carry out do not limit the risk to themselves. I think it is safe to say that most of the rioters are outwardly aggressive. I agree with the quote you gave me from the Qur'an in regards to being patient and I wish more Muslims took that stand, for I feel it to be much healthier.

2) Fi_Sabilillah - I understand your argument and it is a good one. However, would you not agree that those who released the comic publicly are not Muslims (or Muslims in good faith)? Thusly they are not subject to the rules and stipulations of the Qur'an, being that they are entitled their right to freedom of religion which is given to them by God himself? I feel that though the comic does not conform to what you believe it should conform too, it does not threaten your views or harm you in any way, so why must a war be started against it?

3) M H Kahn - You make too many assumptions. I am not catholic this is true, I spent many years in that faith and I do not entirely agree with its teachings. I am certainly not atheist. I have my own belief system which does not conform to any other organized religion that I know of. I do believe in a creator and I recognize this life he has given me as a holy gift. I believe in a final 'judgment' per say and an 'afterlife' as well.

I take humour in the comic not because of who it portrayed. I would think it was funny even if it was a picture of me or my own mother instead; even if it was Jesus (who I do believe in). I am just a light hearted person overall. With the way you talk, its sounds like you are a man who is quick to judgment and (possibly) anger. This is what I believe the comic was trying to satire. You said yourself "This is a direct attack against God and the believers are ordained by God not to hesitate even to die for His cause.". I think it is unhealthy to take this comic as and 'attack'. Is that not a little extreme given the fact that the Cartoon does not harm your belief system? And why does God want you to die for him? If he wanted you dead he would make it so, if he wanted the men from Denmark dead, he would make it so. I believe that you are very quick to be offended which is the problem at present. Also, if your belief system is correct will this man not spend eternity in a hell of his own making whereas you will live in paradise? Why be angry it accomplishes nothing.


4) The amount of Muslims who buy Danish goods, I bet, do not make up enough of the Danish market to really have them feel the pressure put on by a boycott. Besides is a boycott not a tad extreme because you are boycotting more then just the people who made the statement? Boycotting all of Denmark's products because of what one person did makes no more sense then a person hating Muslims because of what 9 Muslims did, does it not?

Once again I'd love to have more feedback. Thank you.

1) I wont buy that crap. Huh. You yourself said it 'i'll make it my business if someone insult my family.... to be as unoffended as possible' This means that you'll try to be as unoffended as you can but yet you can still be offended. So its the same case for us Muslims. We tolerate but there's a limit.
Tell me something, won't you get sting if you put your head in a honeycomb, constantly annoying them? Well that's what these cartoonists are doing.

2) Why should a war be started against that? Nice question. Ok you said that they have the right of freedom of religion, so we too have that much right. So why do they have to make fun of our religion? If they want to make fun then why dont they make fun of their own religion? Oh i got it its because that wont look nice, one making fun of his own religion. So this doesnt mean that you can make fun of our RELIGION. You make fun of Us, disgrace us and when we ask for appologies, you refuse to appologise and then you dont want us to make war. Huh.

3) So you are that type of person. Even if someone disrespect your parents you'll stay quite and watch. You don't value the honour of your parents. Huh so how can you value religion. I think that we are losing our time with you.

4) At least we are trying to defend our honour. We are not like you, who doent even respect your parents. ("I would make it my business......to be as unoffended as possible"

[Sis786]

:sl:

I think again i would need to point out that to understand why WE Muslims are soo angry and offended by these pictures is to understand HOW we feel about our Prophet PBHU!

I think and DONT take me wrong but amoung Most Westners Insults have become something amusing! I mean its become normal to put on your TV and find someone making fun of the Queen and Prime Minster. I have also seen live Comedian Shows where Comedians are making fun of thier OWN culture and Religion. What you need to undertstand as My sis Selising did say What may be normal to you MAY not be to us!

Yes i agree that we live in a mix society and so we should try and adapt to that BUT does that mean we should accept OUR religion to be abused in such a disgusting manner. Many of US muslims have adapted to the Culture of the Socities that we live in, i,e We speak English, Wear English Clothing HOWEVER one identity that is MORE important to us than our Nationality is OUR RELIGION and when it comes to this we cant comprimise! AND we cant accept insults!

[Jez]

McCool,

Dont fall into the trap of believing that 'islam is extremism', and dont believe that what extremists do in the name of a religion, is representative of that religion, or that wrong-doers are true followers of that faith. In northern ireland, 3000 people were killed by 'catholics' or 'protestants' - but guess what, they were not christians, such activities are not in any way christian.

Also, people have a right to protest, you being raised in a catholic home, your parents would be outraged if they saw cartoons of Jesus performing disgusting acts, or the virgin mary being raped, enough to perhaps take to the streets to protest?

Most of the protests have been peaceful, and flag burning and chanting is kind of standard practice for protestors. All protests attract trouble makers, and I am sure that when protests have turned ugly, the trouble makers are not burning the embassy down because of an edict passed to them at a mosque, they are just trouble makers hell bent on trouble.

Jez

[Malaikah]

Well Said Jez!!

[aljawaad]

Yeah thts well said.

[Sis786]

McCool,

Dont fall into the trap of believing that 'islam is extremism', and dont believe that what extremists do in the name of a religion, is representative of that religion, or that wrong-doers are true followers of that faith. In northern ireland, 3000 people were killed by 'catholics' or 'protestants' - but guess what, they were not christians, such activities are not in any way christian.

Also, people have a right to protest, you being raised in a catholic home, your parents would be outraged if they saw cartoons of Jesus performing disgusting acts, or the virgin mary being raped, enough to perhaps take to the streets to protest?

Most of the protests have been peaceful, and flag burning and chanting is kind of standard practice for protestors. All protests attract trouble makers, and I am sure that when protests have turned ugly, the trouble makers are not burning the embassy down because of an edict passed to them at a mosque, they are just trouble makers hell bent on trouble.

Jez

Jez ya hit the nail on the head!:)

[Takumi]

Mc Cool,

I respect your observation of your community and I do understand where you're coming from. I don't understand why they printed out images of a prophet who [I assume] is revered by millions of people either, but that 's not the case here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4693292.stm

that link says, it started with one simple request of the image of the prophet. As soon as the editor found out that image of the prophet was out of line, in my humble opinion, he/she should have put the case to rest. Respect towards other people's faith should be a universal value. That's a reality that we live in right now.

Unfortunately, the editors of the Danish newspaper did not take their clear conscience as guidance and printed those cartoons anyway AFTER knowing the fact that those images were offensive.

The milk has been spilt. What we see now is a repercussion of those, if you don't mind my saying, inconsiderate judgment.

Do I agree with the "reported" acts of violence. I have no reservations to say, NO. I don't.

Do I agree with the publication of the cartoons under the facade of "freedom of speech"? I have no reservations to say, NO, either.

Muslims, like many other people of other faiths have their pride and limits. For all of us, that limits have been crossed the day the cartoons were published. THe issue then arose, how are we going to deal with the situation?

That's when the violence came in. Some do, some don't.

If many governments are really sincere about understanding Islam, the first thing they ought to do is NOT to interpret Islam by the acts of muslims.

I don't believe that all priests molest children either. I expect my brethren from other faiths to employ the same thought process.

[McCool]

1) Noor - Anger, Everyone is quick to anger. It is disgusting to me because there is no attempt to understand. The argument immediately comes to "How dare they do this to me!" and talking like that, though probably will not physically harm anyone, it accomplishes nothing in terms of solving the problem or achieving growth.

2) abdul Majid and Selising - Does the teachings of your Qur'an not say that you should turn the other cheek as Muhammad did? You said so yourself, he fed a sick starving woman who once went out of her way to harm him. Did he get mad at her and retaliate when his chance arose? No he did not. He did the noble thing and let go of his anger and hate. He HELPED THE WOMAN at no gain of his own. Much like Jesus went to his death willingly and never raised a finger in anger against those who sought to destroy him. I believe that if you responded to this situation in the way of Muhammad and Jesus then things would work out. Jesus and Muhammad did NOT fight, They accepted. If you Slandered my family I would not retaliate, if I did, after my temper has settled I would realize the error of my way and I would try to make amends. You Selsing would kill? Muhammad allows this? If you think this to be so then I fear your religion is every bit extreme as the media portrays it to be. (I have a feeling Muhammad does not want any blood to be spilled under ANY circumstances)

3) aljawaad - Bees are far from humans, though I value there existence I would not compare their thought process to mine. If you compare yourself to an animal I fear you have little self respect.
As for this - "So you are that type of person. Even if someone disrespects your parents you'll stay quite and watch. You don't value the honour of your parents. Huh so how can you value religion. I think that we are losing our time with you. At least we are trying to defend our honour. We are not like you, who doesn’t even respect your parents. ('I would make it my business......to be as unoffended as possible'"
I pose a question. If I weren't to 'stay quiet and watch' what am I to do? Wage war? For what, words spoken? If I went to my parents and told them someone slandered their name and I wished to 'defend their honour' by engaging the person in some type of combat, my parents would be appalled. Where is the logic in fighting over beliefs? What one believes does not affect me. Besides after I beat the person who slandered my parents/religion nothing has been done to change their mind. In fact I bet the person who did the slandering would care even less for my views. Actions fueled by anger do not make sense. When you are angry you are irrational, why do something to further hate? Also, I believe you to be an angry person, by your reactions to what I am saying I feel speaking with you about this matter would be impossible because you would fill with hate and judgment so quickly that you would close your mind to what I have to say.

4) Sis786 - "What may be normal to you MAY not be to us! " and Visa Versa? There is no shortage of satire in western culture. I can't go 5 minutes with the T.V. on without hearing something about how G.W. Bush is a fool; or how Paul Martin is a Cheat. What about the Bush/Martin fans, they might find such satire offensive. Why should Muslims be any exception to satire? What makes you so special that you should be devoid of satirical comedy? Because it's offensive? It is not other peoples job to avoid offending you; it happens.

5) Jezz - Islam seems to attract extremism. You can call that statement what you will but it is my perception. the Muslim faith is the largest religion that I know of that has people who claim to be devote followers who blow themselves up in the name of God. Extreme? As well "your parents would be outraged if they saw cartoons of Jesus performing disgusting acts"... Assumptions. I believe that were that ever to occur, my family would see the image for what is was. Anger and misunderstanding. YOU DO NOT FIX MISUNDERSTANDINGS WITH ANGER. As for the peaceful protests; death, fire, threats and destruction are not peaceful. Do not blame these action on a few bad apples. When these actions start the 'peaceful' protestors do not disperse. If they do then how come there are still hundreds of people rushing an embassy after gun shots are being fired into the air. Does that make sense to you?

6) Takumi - I agree with you for the most part. I believe that the comic was made based on a misunderstanding of what Islam represents (this is why this thread is titled "My failure to Understand" because I do not know either but I am eager to learn) and anger. Anger for the current state of the world. This comic symbolizes a problem, the problem being the misconception of Islam by the 'Christian' world. Demanding an apology and being angry will do nothing to solve the problem which is the initial misunderstanding. Sadly at this point I believe there to be little you can do to remedy this problem.

[Jez]

Mr McCool,

The very fact that people claim to be true believers, and do something violent in the name of a religion (be it Islam or Christianity) usually precludes that person from the religious mainstream. For instance a Protestent taxi driver gets shot in northern ireland, by a 'catholic', the Catholic church always puts out a heartfelt dismissal of the act being at all religious, the killer is clearly not a true Catholic. When the 7/7 terrorist atrocities were carried out, the Muslim Council of Britain, (and its Canadian counterpart) would also have put out condemnations of such actions.

However, there are extremists in the world, and some of them just happen to be from an Islamic background (or may be Catholic or Sikh), but the evil they do is nearly always politically motivated, not religiously motivated, and it is never sanctioned by the religious mainstream. Around the world, people who are politically, socially or militarily oppressed, sometimes they fight back, and rally around those various religions, but the acts they commit are not religious or usually representative of that religion.

I agree that you do not fix misunderstandings with anger, violence serves no purpose, but surely there are things you would protest about? Have there been protests in Canada? There are 15 million Muslims in Europe, plenty of protests, and as far as I am aware no riots, no deaths, no fires. I was distressed at some of the placards (being an unbeliever and firmly attached to me head thank you), but this was a vicarage tea party compared to the riots you might see when the anarchists come to town for trade talks and to burn macdonalds down.

In other countries there have been violent riots, but I wonder how much of this is about religion, and how much is about an opportunity to have a go at the establishment?

Jez

[Takumi]

1)
6) Takumi - I agree with you for the most part. I believe that the comic was made based on a misunderstanding of what Islam represents (this is why this thread is titled "My failure to Understand" because I do not know either but I am eager to learn) and anger. Anger for the current state of the world. This comic symbolizes a problem, the problem being the misconception of Islam by the 'Christian' world. Demanding an apology and being angry will do nothing to solve the problem which is the initial misunderstanding. Sadly at this point I believe there to be little you can do to remedy this problem.

I beg to differ. I can do a lot to remedy the problem and trust me one of them is not to behead anyone or to burn any buildings. While I don't claim savoire faire in political tenets of Islam, I do know for a fact that our prophet was sent as a mercy for mankind and that has been proven many times in his life and dealings with other people.

This man, whom they have made fun of, revolutionized not only a city, but a nation and his pure teachings still reverberates in many parts of the world. Unfortunately, as many other theological practices, his tradition has been betrayed and Islamic vigilantes seem to somehow steal the spotlight.

I'm inviting you further your quest to understand Islam and his life and not use this incident as a base for your understanding.

I'm involved in many interfaith dialogue and I know for a fact, even though Australian statistics seem to show otherwise, my fellow citizens from many other faiths do not view Islam as a faith that breeds terror. Of course, they do not represent anyone except themselves.

If misunderstanding of Islam was the issue, then the best avenue for anyone is to simply ask.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi McCool,
You commented on just about everyone's posts except for mine. Please let me know what you think.

Regards

[aljawaad]

3) aljawaad - Bees are far from humans, though I value there existence I would not compare their thought process to mine. If you compare yourself to an animal I fear you have little self respect.
As for this - "So you are that type of person. Even if someone disrespects your parents you'll stay quite and watch. You don't value the honour of your parents. Huh so how can you value religion. I think that we are losing our time with you. At least we are trying to defend our honour. We are not like you, who doesn’t even respect your parents. ('I would make it my business......to be as unoffended as possible'"
I pose a question. If I weren't to 'stay quiet and watch' what am I to do? Wage war? For what, words spoken? If I went to my parents and told them someone slandered their name and I wished to 'defend their honour' by engaging the person in some type of combat, my parents would be appalled. Where is the logic in fighting over beliefs? What one believes does not affect me. Besides after I beat the person who slandered my parents/religion nothing has been done to change their mind. In fact I bet the person who did the slandering would care even less for my views. Actions fueled by anger do not make sense. When you are angry you are irrational, why do something to further hate? Also, I believe you to be an angry person, by your reactions to what I am saying I feel speaking with you about this matter would be impossible because you would fill with hate and judgment so quickly that you would close your mind to what I have to say.

You won't understand our feelings regarding that matter coz you are not Muslim (May Allah guide your heart).
"If i weren't to stay quite and watch what am i to do? Wage war?..." Well my Bro that depends on the situation and the problems. This depends on many factors. At least if you dont want to wage war, you can at least find a way to protect the honour of your family.
Ok you are jus telling us what you think about us, so let me give you my opinion about you; I think that you are someone who either don't care for your parents or you are someone who don't have the guts to fight to even to protect your honour and dignity. And that's why you are tryind to discourage us too into it.
"In fact i bet the person who did the slandering would care even less for my views". You gave the reason yourself why the Muslims are angry; we are angry and boycotting too has already started in many places so that our views are considered. This will continue until justice has been done.
Since you are giving your opinions about us, let me tell you mine. I think that its you who are quick at judging others. You've been here for only a short time and yet you have already given your opinion on almost all of us. So this must means that you are quick at judging others. I also think that you have come here to create some kind of trouble.
Well since you gave your opinion on us, i'm gave you mine. Don't be offended. Oh i forgot, you won't be offended coz you'll 'try to be as un-offended as possible'.

Peace

[Selising]

1)
4) Sis786 - "What may be normal to you MAY not be to us! " and Visa Versa? There is no shortage of satire in western culture. I can't go 5 minutes with the T.V. on without hearing something about how G.W. Bush is a fool; or how Paul Martin is a Cheat. What about the Bush/Martin fans, they might find such satire offensive. Why should Muslims be any exception to satire? What makes you so special that you should be devoid of satirical comedy? Because it's offensive? It is not other peoples job to avoid offending you; it happens.

Are u saying that you r living in a community that promote humiliation? Disrespect to others? hmmmm....

We don't do that.

[aljawaad]

MC Cool Kuffar create problems and you want us to solve them.
Muslims should help those in trouble but i dunno if he must help the creators of trouble.

[Sis786]

1)

4) Sis786 - "What may be normal to you MAY not be to us! " and Visa Versa? There is no shortage of satire in western culture. I can't go 5 minutes with the T.V. on without hearing something about how G.W. Bush is a fool; or how Paul Martin is a Cheat. What about the Bush/Martin fans, they might find such satire offensive. Why should Muslims be any exception to satire? What makes you so special that you should be devoid of satirical comedy? Because it's offensive? It is not other peoples job to avoid offending you; it happens.

Comparing George Bush and Paul Martin TO a Prophet is absurd. We as in Muslims arent "Fans" Our Devotion to the Prophet Muhammed PBHU is not one that came into existence now! Its not one that will change. Ever since i learned how to speak and like many Muslims I believed in ONE GOD and THE PROPHET MUHAMMED PBHU was the final and most beloved Prophet of God! Now IF you knew what the Prophet Muhammed PBHU meant to us then you MIGHT be able to undertsand the anger of "THESE" Cartoons. No offence but i find that a non-muslim will never be able to understand! This does not mean you are BLIND to the whole concept of our love and respect to the Prophet just that you might not understand the LEVEL on which we Love and respect our Prophet.

For many years now We have seen things in the Press that are degrading to Islam. After this so called "War on Terror" our Religion has been targeted. BUT you take your information from the Media and not from the true source the "Quran". it is stated in the Quran that if we as in Muslims save on person it is like we have saved Humanity and if we kill one person it is like we have killed Humanity. This is referring to unlawful killings and Terrorism would fall into unlawful killings! BUT the Media dont talk about this instead they talk about "Jihad" Jihad is also when i walk pass a pub and I resist going in "Its a Struggle" yes it is Holy War also BUT in the right concept.

Drawing pictures of the Prophet Muhammed is forbidden in Islam FULL STOP! Then to draw pictures to Humiliate and Degrade the Prophet Muahmmed PBHU is a Whole different story! Was there a need for this You have to ask yourself!

Just also wanted to mention in December 2005, 22,000 Muslims took part in a "Global and Peace and Unity Event" In London. 22,000.00 Muslims did the mainstream Media show this "NO". 22,000.00 Muslims from all over Britain took part in an event about Peace and the Media did not highlight this. BUT when 50 odd people take to the street last week THIS WAS HEADLINE NEWS!

I leave you to think about where YOU get your information from and HOW reliable that INFORMATION really is!

[fredbear]

Sis786, I might refer you to the 'New Mujhaideen Pics' thread. There you will find many chilling examples of 'peaceful Islam'. You have to understand that these are the images that linger in peoples' minds. All the peaceful demonstrations in the world aren't going to mean squat until you can restrain your fanatics from their penchant for indiscriminant killing.

[Sis786]

Sis786, I might refer you to the 'New Mujhaideen Pics' thread. There you will find many chilling examples of 'peaceful Islam'. You have to understand that these are the images that linger in peoples' minds. All the peaceful demonstrations in the world aren't going to mean squat until you can restrain your fanatics from their penchant for indiscriminant killing.

Two wrongs dont make a right! But i could show you the pictures from Belgrave Prison and HOW the American Soliders treat Prisoners there THEY are equally "Chilling"

This is where you are wrong YES there are a few "fanatics" amoungst us. But in realtion to the "Mujhaideens" a majority are fighting for peace and justice. Yes will seem weird to you as you have only understood the word and meaning for the media. Do you think that a 12year old boy in Palestine wanted to be killed in such a horrific way than he was! This boy went out to throw rocks at a Israel Tank as it was in thier land killing thier people. Did he deserve to be killed for "Throwing rocks" He was a Mujhaideen someone who sees injustice and fights with it for peace!

[fredbear]

Two wrongs dont make a right! But i could show you the pictures from Belgrave Prison and HOW the American Soliders treat Prisoners there THEY are equally "Chilling"

This is where you are wrong YES there are a few "fanatics" amoungst us. But in realtion to the "Mujhaideens" a majority are fighting for peace and justice. Yes will seem weird to you as you have only understood the word and meaning for the media. Do you think that a 12year old boy in Palestine wanted to be killed in such a horrific way than he was! This boy went out to throw rocks at a Israel Tank as it was in thier land killing thier people. Did he deserve to be killed for "Throwing rocks" He was a Mujhaideen someone who sees injustice and fights with it for peace!

I agree with everything you just said. I am deeply distressed regarding the Palestinian situation. It is an ongoing crime against humanity. But the direction that some have chosen is doomed, I'm afraid, to failure. Palestinians will never overcome through the actions of suicide bombers. Every time innocent people are killed the palestinian cause is weakened. Like it or not, the outcome of the struggle will be determined in the living rooms of the United States of America. In the end, it is a public relations war, and one the Palestinians are losing. It is incumbant on you, and others like you, to show your brothers such as those in the 'New Mujaideen Pics' thread that their way is ultimately self-defeating. I wish you success.

[M H Kahn]

Hi McCool !
Media resort to comic with politicians or other people in Muslim countries too, and their fans are never angered by such comics or cartoons. But playing jokes with a Messanger of Allah is tantamount to joking with the code of faith and conduct divinely ordained by God for the mankind. Take reason and be faithful to yourself.

[McCool]

You have all made good points and I am having a difficult time comming up with a rebuttle (that is not why is has been so long since I have posted, Mid-terms :uhwhat )

I guess I want to start with this one;

1) Aljawaad - Your name states you to be a, what I hope is self proclaimed, "Soldier of Allah" and your tag claims that you Fight in the way of Allah. I would like to know what the people of this forum have to say about that. What do you feel when you read that. After I hear some responses I will make my rebuttle to the rest of your posts.

2) Ansar Al-'Adl - Would you not agree with my point that these pictures do not harm you? I recognize that it puts a negative light on what your relegion represents (at least to you) In all honesty what is it you crave to remedy the situation? an appology? it has been given. Keep in mind this cartoon was released in October and it is stiring more trouble 4 months after its release than it did initially. So what is it that Muslims want? What are they trying to achieve?
I am sorry but if you tell me that they are trying to make it understood that they are not extremeist in their nature and that they are reasonable than I would not believe you. As well, political condemnations of the violence do not ease my mind about the situation. If any government promoted this then there would be a serious problem.
You also speak and say things like (I am paraphrasing, correct me if I mis-interpret) the things the media are doing to portray the Muslim faith in a negative light are intentional and the media wanted to make the Muslims look bad. Is that not what you are saying? You used words like "attacked" and "maligned" do you believe these events to be a conspiracy? May I remind you that it is the "Muslims" who strap bombs to themselves and kill themselves and others in the name of the peaceful Qur'an and not the media? You have to understand that as much as you don't like this cartoon, the images comming out of the middle easy are FAR more vulgar, and the are not drawings.
I recognize that only a small percent of Muslims are extreme (like any other relegion), but look at what they are doing.

3) Selsing - "Are u saying that you r living in a community that promote humiliation? Disrespect to others? hmmmm.... We don't do that."
Who is "we"? Muslims?
I saw a video of a Muslim man beating the burnt, decappitated upper torso of an American soldier with a stick. You do not humiliate or disrespect? Do not make such generalizations. All non-Muslims did not make that comic nor support it

4) Sis786 - What are "lawful" killings? How can there be such a thing? why is one death "lawful" under the Qur'an and another "unlawful"? Your points are made in anger. Why be angry is my point. These images DO NOT harm your personal beliefs or faith.

5) fredbear - you make a true and depressing point. Leaving such a decision to the un-caring and the un-informed.

The Muslim faith is not the first to be satired nor will it be the last.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi McCool,
Thanks for your post. :)

Y2) Ansar Al-'Adl - Would you not agree with my point that these pictures do not harm you?

No I disagree. These cartoons are harmful. At a time of great tension between various groups in western society, these cartoons destroy the efforts of millions of people to integrate minorities into the community and promote peace. These cartoons not only harm Muslims, but they harm everyone because they divide our communities and promote hatred towards a minority. Don't forget that the prelude to the holocaust was anti-semitic cartoons and other such propaganda.

I recognize that it puts a negative light on what your relegion represents (at least to you) In all honesty what is it you crave to remedy the situation?

I don't want anything specific, the intention is to simply raise awareness of this issue and to expose the hatred that is dividing our communities. Peaceful protests are very important in this regard and we also need to explain to non-muslims, like yourself, just what exactly is so wrong about these cartoons, so that they may understand. Through understanding we will be able to achieve tolerance and respect for eachother, and consequenlty, peace.

Keep in mind this cartoon was released in October and it is stiring more trouble 4 months after its release than it did initially.

Snowball effect.

I am sorry but if you tell me that they are trying to make it understood that they are not extremeist in their nature and that they are reasonable than I would not believe you. As well, political condemnations of the violence do not ease my mind about the situation. If any government promoted this then there would be a serious problem.

Agreed.

You also speak and say things like (I am paraphrasing, correct me if I mis-interpret) the things the media are doing to portray the Muslim faith in a negative light are intentional and the media wanted to make the Muslims look bad. Is that not what you are saying? You used words like "attacked" and "maligned" do you believe these events to be a conspiracy?

Not always. In some cases it is simply ignorance and failure to reach out to the Muslims to present the correct understanding, in other cases it is real hatred that is being directed towards Muslims, and in a few other cases it is simply how the western media functions.

May I remind you that it is the "Muslims" who strap bombs to themselves and kill themselves and others in the name of the peaceful Qur'an and not the media? You have to understand that as much as you don't like this cartoon, the images comming out of the middle easy are FAR more vulgar, and the are not drawings.

http://www.islamicboard.com/175722-post57.html
I think the above link to a previous post is relevant to your question. The following two posts were also part of a similar discussion:
http://www.islamicboard.com/175721-post20.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/176321-post27.html

I recognize that only a small percent of Muslims are extreme (like any other relegion), but look at what they are doing.

I agree with you completely on this point, and I'm glad it has been acknowledged.

Regards

[aljawaad]

You have all made good points and I am having a difficult time comming up with a rebuttle (that is not why is has been so long since I have posted, Mid-terms :uhwhat )

I guess I want to start with this one;

1) Aljawaad - Your name states you to be a, what I hope is self proclaimed, "Soldier of Allah" and your tag claims that you Fight in the way of Allah. I would like to know what the people of this forum have to say about that. What do you feel when you read that. After I hear some responses I will make my rebuttle to the rest of your posts.

Im really sorry for you McCool if you don't understand simple english but the user title says it all.
"Soldier of Allah" By the way that's not my name. In fact its my user title.
"Aljawaad" is my login name.
And what you called a 'tag' well i prefer callin it my signature coz i was not tagged when i came on earth.
I f you think that a soldier is someone who always have to fight with guns... then you are mistaken. As for me when i call myself a soldier, by that im expressing my feelings and letting people know that my only reason to be on earth is only to please Allah. There are many ways in which one can please Allah, e.g fighting against injustice, defending one's honour and the honour of others... Also when i say that i fight, this does not means that i always fight physically, my fight can also be verbal, written, etc. In fact it can take the most appropriate form according to the circumstances.
When i say that i'm 'fighting in the way of Allah' this means that im fighting or i'm prepared to fight against everything that Allah has declared as Haraam in his Holy book.
Also, i'll be ready for your rebuttle Insha Allah.
May Allah protect me and all my Brothers and Sisters against Shaitwaan and his tricks. MAy Allah also gives us the courage to fight in his way.

Peace.

[McCool]

Fight v.
1. To attempt to harm or gain power over an adversary by blows or with weapons.
2. To engage in a quarrel; argue

Fighting is Fighting, whether with words or guns. You make no sense Aljawaad; Fight, Defend, Honour, Injustice. What are these to you? Words? Commands? I thought you follow a religion of peace? Do you achieve Peace through Conflict?

Why must everything be a fight? Do you ask yourself this? I just heard a Muslim cleric declare a one million dollar bounty on the head of the cartoonist. A CARTOONIST! He is probably a young man making a mediocre salary with a small family. Does this make sense? Is this okay with your God? If he allows this then I fear every terrible thing I have heard about your religion is true. If your God tells you to fight, to die, to defend against words and emotions then it explains EXACTLY why the middle east hasn't seen peace in a long time.

Religions are not to have soldiers, Nation States have soldiers. Religions do not tell you to fight. If the Qur'an and Allah tell you too then there is little hope for the Muslims I fear.

[abdul Majid]

Mccool Wat Are You Talking About????

If Dont Have The Right Information Then Ask???

Why Must Everything Be A Fight You Say? Becuase There Is Conflict, Why Is Your President Invading Muslim Countrys?? They Didnt Try To Invade Or Say They Are Invading??? He Makes Misheif In The Land Do You See, Or Maybe Youll Never See, Becuase Your Views Are One Sided !!

[McCool]

I stated I am Canadian. my PRIME MINISTER has not attacked your country. I do not support Bush. What he is doing is not only illegal and immoral but greedy. I support him no more than I support suicide bombers because he is no better.

Mischeif warrants death. death = peace?

You are the one who appears to be one sided. You jump to conclusions and assumptions.

[abdul Majid]

i didnt know your view on bush, and i was jumping to conclusions MCcool, your right....but what is thiss

MCCOOL'S COMMENT, QUOTE '' Why must everything be a fight? Do you ask yourself this? I just heard a Muslim cleric declare a one million dollar bounty on the head of the cartoonist. A CARTOONIST! He is probably a young man making a mediocre salary with a small family. Does this make sense? Is this okay with your God? If he allows this then I fear every terrible thing I have heard about your religion is true. If your God tells you to fight, to die, to defend against words and emotions then it explains EXACTLY why the middle east hasn't seen peace in a long time.

Religions are not to have soldiers, Nation States have soldiers. Religions do not tell you to fight. If the Qur'an and Allah tell you too then there is little hope for the Muslims I fear.''END QUOTE.....

IF YOU SEE THIS ÁS JUST A ''CARTOON'' THEN YOU SEE IT WRONG, AND YOU NEED TO RESEARCH....THIS IS A ATTACK ON OUR BELOVED PROPHET(PBH)..A MAN WHO YOU NEED TO DO RESEARCH ON !!

EVERYTHING YOU HEARD ABOUT OUR RELIGION IS TRUE YOU SAY.......WELL I HEARD THAT THE SUN HAS TO RADIO STATIONS?!?!?!? DOES THAT MAKE IT TRUEEEEEE?????

OFCORSE NOT, PEOPLE SAY WHAT EVER THEY WANT, THEY MAKE STUFF UP, THIS IS NOT BEYOND, IT HAPPENS ... YOU CANT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU HEAR THATS UBSURD

[McCool]

Listen to your response. You are irrational. It makes no sense.

First off I said "If he allows this then I fear every terrible thing I have heard about your religion is true" I don't believe your religion deems this behavior to be appropriate.

Second, It was just a cartoon. If you take everything as a stab to your heart than you will be angry your entire life and no good will ever come of it.

[abdul Majid]

If! Meaning Theres A Possibility?!?
God Is Not Unjust!! And Neither Is Islam!!

Well Since Its Impossible For You To Know My Intensions Im Not Angry, How You Say Its Just A Cartoon, With Everything Thats Goin On In The World, Then Poof This Cartoon Just To Top It Off??

Is That Inconsiderate Or What??? Is That Right, Moraly??

It Feels Like A Stab Buddy, Becuase I Care About People Ok, And It Hurts To See Children Murdered, And Sisters Raped, And Brothers Tortured, And Then They Dare To Ridicule Our Prophet(peace Be Upon Him)....how Dare They !!!

[snakelegs]

this whole thing is very sad,
i think the europeans deliberately set a trap and, sadly, some muslims jumped right in, which was entirely predictable.
i also think that the violent protests (like in pakistan) were orchestrated.

[abdul Majid]

Thats Interesting

[wysiwyg]

Fight v.
1. To attempt to harm or gain power over an adversary by blows or with weapons.
2. To engage in a quarrel; argue

Fighting is Fighting, whether with words or guns. You make no sense Aljawaad; Fight, Defend, Honour, Injustice. What are these to you? Words? Commands? I thought you follow a religion of peace? Do you achieve Peace through Conflict?

Why must everything be a fight? Do you ask yourself this? I just heard a Muslim cleric declare a one million dollar bounty on the head of the cartoonist. A CARTOONIST! He is probably a young man making a mediocre salary with a small family. Does this make sense? Is this okay with your God? If he allows this then I fear every terrible thing I have heard about your religion is true. If your God tells you to fight, to die, to defend against words and emotions then it explains EXACTLY why the middle east hasn't seen peace in a long time.

Religions are not to have soldiers, Nation States have soldiers. Religions do not tell you to fight. If the Qur'an and Allah tell you too then there is little hope for the Muslims I fear.

I'm going to step in defence of Abdul here.

The second definition of 'fight' is not necessarily violent: 2. To engage in a quarrel; argue.
You could argue that it is part of democracy to clash horns in this manner, using words only of course. Elections and parliamentary debates are described using this kind of language: "put up a fight", "fighting for survival", "fight for the right" etc.

I was brought up Christian and sang "Onward Christian Soldiers, marching as to war..." on regular occasions. The Americans fought for God and country in the second world war. Religion has always been a rallying point for a good fight.

If you have ever been the victim of bullying: a group or person of superior strength to you who insults you or someone close to you, then you ought to be able to muster up some empathy for Muslims in the face of the "cartoons". Elton John has just won compensation for slander from two newspapers who wrote defamatory stuff about him. One of his main arguments apart from the untruthfulness was that it hindered the AIDs cause that he was representing at that particular occasion. Should EJ have just shut up and turned the other cheek?

Although he might be dead, Mahommed is still a human being, and the cartoons have been deemed defamatory by a majority of Muslims. The fact that some Muslims in some countries have reacted violently has been overblown by the media, and as someone said, these people are likely to have other agendas. The reaction of the majority of Muslims in the West shows that the cartoons are indeed defamatory and slanderous. There is no question about that largely because the depictions harm the cause of successful integration of Muslims into the west. Within a few years it will become unlawful in western countries to depict the prophet, just as it is unlawful to swear on prime time TV, reveal information covered by the Privacy Act, or by the confidentiality agreement you signed with your last employer etc etc. Once it is unlawful, then presumably you won't have any "difficulty to understand".

[lϋх ετ νέrιταs]

McCool.... did you notice how the media was just beginning to calm down about the 'muslim community' and then suddenly these cartoons were published out of the blue.... oh look the 'muslims' are back on telly.. look at the aggresive little things [MAD][/MAD]....

i think the cartoons were published to provoke muslims.... because of course when it comes insulting islam naturally a muslim is deeply offended....

however i do agree that some muslims did act quite foolishly (referring to the guy that dressed as a suicide bomber - notice it was only the ONE GUY)
but this is exactly the reaction that the media wanted .... keep up the good work on giving islam a bad name i soppose

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi McCool,
Did you read my response?

[aljawaad]

I'm going to step in defence of Abdul here.

The second definition of 'fight' is not necessarily violent: 2. To engage in a quarrel; argue.
You could argue that it is part of democracy to clash horns in this manner, using words only of course. Elections and parliamentary debates are described using this kind of language: "put up a fight", "fighting for survival", "fight for the right" etc.

I was brought up Christian and sang "Onward Christian Soldiers, marching as to war..." on regular occasions. The Americans fought for God and country in the second world war. Religion has always been a rallying point for a good fight.

If you have ever been the victim of bullying: a group or person of superior strength to you who insults you or someone close to you, then you ought to be able to muster up some empathy for Muslims in the face of the "cartoons". Elton John has just won compensation for slander from two newspapers who wrote defamatory stuff about him. One of his main arguments apart from the untruthfulness was that it hindered the AIDs cause that he was representing at that particular occasion. Should EJ have just shut up and turned the other cheek?

Although he might be dead, Mahommed is still a human being, and the cartoons have been deemed defamatory by a majority of Muslims. The fact that some Muslims in some countries have reacted violently has been overblown by the media, and as someone said, these people are likely to have other agendas. The reaction of the majority of Muslims in the West shows that the cartoons are indeed defamatory and slanderous. There is no question about that largely because the depictions harm the cause of successful integration of Muslims into the west. Within a few years it will become unlawful in western countries to depict the prophet, just as it is unlawful to swear on prime time TV, reveal information covered by the Privacy Act, or by the confidentiality agreement you signed with your last employer etc etc. Once it is unlawful, then presumably you won't have any "difficulty to understand".

Hope that you got your ans from that quote McCool.
Anyway i'd have replied myself if this Bro had not replied. I'll be waiting for you though, Do give valid arguments and don't make me lose my time.