Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

[Christian_dove]

First of all, let me state that I do not have any personal opinion as to wheter the Palestines are "The Tribe of Esau" as mentioned in the old testament, or not. But it has become clear to me that many Israel schoolars consider this to be a fact, and this should be on any muslims mind these days.

The Bible forsees the destruction of Esaus tribe by Israel. Israel, tired by years of conflict and threats from their neighbouring countries are now pulling their forces out of the occupied areas, creating a buffer zone between themselves and palestinians. Is this only because they are being protective, or do they have other plans?

Obviously you may say that The Bible is false, and that there is no way the jewish people are "Gods people". (I myself, am not jewish..) However, never in modern history have so few dominated so many so thoroughly. The Jews are outnumbered 35 to 1, and they still dominate the Arabs. How humiliating it must be for the Arabs not to be able to defeat such an outnumbered foe. Furthermore, it has not mattered that the Arabs succeeded in bringing the U.S.S.R. into the conflict on their side. Even though the Arabs were trained and equipped by the Russians, they have not been able to defeat Israel.

Any reader who are interested in the events of today should read this article carefully. Why should you read it, if it is not true? Because this is what some powerfull men in Israel believes. PS, there may be some links in the article, they are not likely to work as these are news for subscribers of a special network. Actually I am not allowed to show this, but I have chosen to do it anyway.

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"HOUSE OF ESAU" SHOWN TO BE TODAY'S PALESTINIANS

In Israel

NEWS BRIEF: "Jordan's Disengagement Connection", by Jimmy DeYoung, Israel My Glory, November/December, 2005

"The Jewish people, God's Chosen People, were promised a land that God, through the ancient Jewish prophets, told them they would possess at the time of of the coming of Messiah. The land, promised in 38 different passages of Scripture, including the Gaza Strip and the area in northern Samaria that the Israelis evacuated over the summer."

"As for the Palestinians, leading Orthodox Jewish Bible scholars believe they are the descendants of Amalek, the grandson of Esau (Genesis 36:12)."

Let us quickly review this Scripture passage given above, but let us start in verse 9:

"And this is the history of the descendants of Esau the father of the Edomites in the hill country of Seir. These are the names of Esau's sons: Eliphaz, the son of Adah, Esau's wife, and Reuel, the son of Basemath, Esau's wife. And the sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam, and Kenaz. And Timna was a concubine of Eliphaz, Esau's son; and she bore Amalek to Eliphaz. These are the sons of Adah, Esau's wife." (Genesis 36:9-12; Parallel Bible, KJV/Amplified Bible Commentary)

This passage identifies this particular line of genealogy as "the descendants of Esau the father of the Edomites". Remember this identification, for we shall be returning to it shortly as we discuss the application of this prophecy as it applies to the Palestinians living outside Israel -- in Jordan.

This one sentence is simply dynamite! It literally says that the present-day Palestinians, living in Israel, are the descendents of the "House of Esau". Why is that important? It is critically important because God breathed an End of the Age prophecy against the "House of Esau" in Obadiah 15-18, one of the most startling prophecies in the Bible -- and one working its way forward toward fulfillment.

"But on Mount Zion [in Jerusalem] there shall be deliverance [for those who escape], and it shall be holy; and the house of Jacob shall possess its [own former] possessions. The house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame , but the house of Esau shall be stubble; they shall kindle and burn them and consume them, and there shall be no survivor of the house of Esau, for the Lord has spoken it." [Verses 17-18; Emphasis added]

Let us pause for a moment to examine the identification of the Palestinians as the "House of Esau" from yet another angle. In U.S. Army Intelligence, I was taught to look for "signs on the ground" to either arrive at my position or to prove that my thesis was correct and moving forward. When I thoroughly studied the above passage, I was struck by the prophecy that the nation of Israel (Houses of Jacob and Joseph) were going to destroy the "House of Esau" by some kind of "fire" -- a fire that would totally annihilate the descendents of Esau.

Realizing that this prophecy was nearly 2,500 years old and set in the Old Testament, I concluded that a destruction by fire in that time period would have to mean that the Houses of Jacob and Joseph had to be living in close proximity to the "House of Esau". A weapon of fire is a close-quarter weapon.

Further, this prophecy suggests that Israel resorted to a destruction by fire because the Houses of Jacob and Joseph were in close-quarter conflict which could not be resolved by any means other than annihilation by fire.

Do we see the nation of Israel (Houses of Jacob and Joseph) in close quarter proximity with an implacable foe? Yes, we certainly do! We see that Israel has been in close-quarter conflict with the Palestinians, a conflict which has been ongoing since the early 1970's, where Yassir Arafat's terrorists murdered 11 Israeli athletes in the 1972 Olympics in Munich. This conflict has literally tried the soul of Israelis of all political and religious persuasions.

In June, 1990, I read an editorial in the Jewish Press which indicated that Israel's patience was at an end, and that the next major war was going to result in the annihilation of Israel's implacable enemies. . This editorial stated that a decision had been made at the highest military and civilian leadership levels of the Israeli government that the next Arab-Israeli war would be the war in which the Israeli Defense Force would annihilate the entire populations of the Arabs who hated them so badly. These Jewish leaders were sick and tired of constantly being attacked, winning the war, but then not winning the peace.

Further, this top Israeli leadership was concerned that, in due time, the Arabs would possess Weapons of Mass Destruction which could be delivered by suicide bombers, at which point Israel was surely doomed. Therefore, top Israeli leadership in 1990 had decided to annihilate entire populations during the next Arab - Israeli war.

Therefore, we can see that top Israeli leadership -- both civilian and military -- had decided that they were going to destroy the total population of the Arabs. Just two years later, the world learned of the Oslo Accords, which we believe is the greatest trap ever sprung upon a people or upon the world. In the guise of wanting peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians, Israel promised through Oslo to withdraw from huge chunks of her land in order that the Palestinians could have their own state. However, the truth truly does lie in the opposite direction of the stated rhetoric (NEWS1558), for what Israel is really doing is strategically withdrawing her settlers so they will not be killed along with the Palestinians.

The crucial element to understanding that the Palestinians comprise the "House of Esau" thus depends upon several factors:

1) They are physically descendents from Amalek, grandson of Esau, as noted above;

2) A senior Rabbi emailed me from Jerusalem who told me that the Palestinians were the modern-day descendents of the House of Esau! These Palestinians lived in both Edom, a province of Jordan, and within Israel under the leadership of Yassir Arafat!

3) In late November, 1999, I was invited to the 2-day Calgary Bible Prophecy Conference as a speaker. While there, I was introduced to a retired Bible professor at the Calgary Bible College. I asked him if he knew if the "House of Esau" spoken of in Obadiah had a modern-day descendent; immediately, with no hesitation, he nodded his head in the affirmative, and said that, "Yes", there was a modern-day descendent, and they were known as the Palestinians.

4) Middle Eastern events were daily filled with the close-quarter conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, a conflict which cannot end until one side is eradicated, given the hatred the Palestinians possess against the Jew. This conflict was "proof on the ground" which any experienced Army Intelligence analyst would look for to see if his understanding was correct.

5) In NEWS1422 (Posted October, 2000) I also noted that, since no Jewish leader -- even the hard-hearted Illuminati -- would find it acceptable to kill tens of thousands of Jews when their armed forces destroyed the Palestinians by fire. Therefore, I stated that we would see a major effort to see the populations separated, both by a barrier and by removing the settlers from the territories slated to be temporarily transferred to Palestinian control.

Thus, we have five proofs that Obadiah 15-18 was in the process of being fulfilled at the End of the Age, just as verse 15 of this passage indicates.

However, Jimmy DeYoung gives us even more reasons to understand that these Palestinians are the "House of Esau". Let us go back to his article:

"These are the people whom God said He would have war with throughout all generations (Ex 17:16)." (Ibid.)

Did you know that God singled out Amalek for a declaration of war "from generation to generation"? Listen to this verse;

"And he said, Because theirs is a hand against the throne of the Lord, the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." Parallel Bible, KJV/Amplified Bible Commentary)

Now, DeYoung goes to the prophet Malachi in his identification of the present-day Palestinians.

"The Jewish prophet Malachi revealed that the Edomites (all of the descendents of Esau) would one day return and rebuild; and the Lord would call their borders the 'Territory of Wickedness' (Mal 1:4). The Edomites were once headquarted in the city of Petra in Edom, the biblical name for the lower third of modern-day Jordan." (Ibid.)

This last sentence brings us to the final portion of our examination today. The original home of the Edomites (all of the descendents of Esau) was in the province of Edom, which today is part of Jordan. Since World War II, the Palestinians in Israel could have elected to go home to Edom, for that is their real homeland. However, the King of Jordan would not allow such a return, for the reasons which Jimmy DeYoung observes is facing the current king of Jordan,

"Turmoil in neighboring Iraq, terrorism in Israel, and plots against Jordan all have King Abdullah keeping a close watch as the Palestinians take control of the disputed areas with a promise to continue their armed struggle against the State of Israel. To better understand King Abdullah's vigilance, we must remember that more than 65 percent of Jordan's population is made up of Palestinians." (Ibid.)

Now, we are considering the Palestinians in the country of Jordan, which comprise 65% of all the citizens of Jordan. This reality means that the King -- who is Hashemite -- is a minority ruler. For this reason, his security forces have to constantly be on guard against assassination attempts. King Hussein of Jordan threw his elite army units against Yassir Arafat's PLO in September, 1970, in order to keep his throne! The beginning of this war is called "Black September" amongst the Arabs. Listen to an encyclopedia account:

"September 1970 is known as the Black September in the Arab history and sometimes is referred to as the 'era of regrettable events'. It was a month when Hashemite King Hussein of Jordan moved to quash an attempt of Palestinian organizations to overturn his monarchy, the attack resulted in heavy civilian Palestinian casualties. The armed conflict lasted until July 1971." ("Black September in Jordan", Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

As you can see, the Jordanians have always feared the majority population of Palestinians, which explains their consistent background approachment with Israel. The reality is that no one is the entire Islamic Middle East likes the Palestinians; rather, they all hate them and want them dead. Listen as a Pentagon report makes this fact very clear.

" "The Arab war plan does, indeed, call for the annihilation of the Jewish State, but there is another target. The Palestinian Arabs have been a hated thorn to most of the Arab world. While the Arab dictators used the Palestinian Arabs as a terrorist front to recover Arab pride for past battlefield defeats, they never allowed them to settle as citizens in their nations. They know that once these clever, hostile people have an operating state, they can and will cause havoc in the Arab world. They will constantly demand money, using the 'or else' blackmail, as in the past. Therefore, during this coming war, the two targets are both the Jews and the Palestinian Arabs." ("1997: The Next Arab-Israeli War", by Emanuel A. Winston, A Middle East Analyst and Commentator, The Jewish Press, Week of January 31, 1997, Vol. XLVII, No. 5, p. 43 and 53.).

Now, going back to Obadiah 15-18, we see God's prophecy that this coming war between the Houses of Jacob and Joseph will result in a 100% annihilation of the House of Esau -- whom we now know to be the Palestinians. For this complete annihilation of the Palestinian people to occur as the prophecy dictates, does this mean that the Palestinians living in Jordan, mostly in the province of Edom, have to also be destroyed?

Interestingly, a parallel passage in Isaiah 34 foretells of a complete annihilation of "Edom, the descendants of Esau", at the End of the Age. Let us review portions of this prophecy:

After describing the End of the Age slaughter against all nations of the earth in verses 1-4, God turns His attention to the people of Edom:

"Because My sword has been bathed and equipped in heaven, behold, it shall come down upon Edom [the descendants of Esau], upon the people whom I have doomed for judgment.

6The sword of the Lord is filled with blood [of sacrifices], it is gorged and greased with fatness--with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah [capital of Edom] and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.

7And the wild oxen shall fall with them, and the [young] bullocks with the [old and mighty] bulls; and their land shall be drunk and soaked with blood, and their dust made rich with fatness.

8For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense, for the cause of Zion." (Isaiah 34:5-8; Parallel Bible, KJV/Amplified Bible Commentary)

Whenever you read or hear of terrorist attacks carried out by Palestinians against Jews, you can rest assured that God is watching, is taking notes, and is just awaiting His "day of vengeance, a year of recompense, for the cause of Zion."

Now, let us return to this passage, for God has terrible plans for even the land on which these descendants of Esau are living.

"And the streams of Edom will be turned into pitch and its dust into brimstone, and its land will become burning pitch. The burning of Edom shall not be quenched night or day; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever." (Isaiah 34:9-10; Parallel Bible, KJV/Amplified Bible Commentary)

Therefore, we should expect that, as Israel is moving to annihilate the Palestinians soon after they have completed their security barrier and have withdrawn her last settler from selected areas of the West Bank, Israel will also have a plan to launch an attack which will destroy the Palestinians in Jordan, causing "the streams of Edom (to be) be turned into pitch and its dust into brimstone, and its land will become burning pitch".

These are harsh statements, and we make them with a heavy heart, for we wish the death of no one. But, the End of the Age is the time when God does destroy entire nations and peoples. Since we know the appearance of Antichrist is close, we should expect that these horrific prophecies will begin to come to pass.

[Christian_dove]

More on Israel (Again, I am not a jew, just interested in the events of today):

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ARAB BEWARE!! AS YOU SCHEME TO DESTROY ISRAEL, YOU HAVE EMBARKED UPON "MISSION IMPOSSIBLE"!

You might consider my article today to be an open warning to all Arab leaders that they had best stop attacking God's people, the Jews. They have no concept that they are opposing Almighty God. Yes, there are pretender Jews in the land today, and right now, they are in charge. Jesus foretold of this kind of Jew at the End of the Age, which is why His prophecy is found in the Book of Revelation. Listen to Jesus' Words:

"I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." (Rev 2:9)

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie." (Rev 3:9)

During the mid-point of the Tribulation, God is going to allow Antichrist to slaughter these pretender Jews, which at that time will represent 66% of the total population of Israel (Zechariah 13:8-9).

However, God still views genuine Jews as His Chosen People and Israel as His Chosen Nation. Israel is still the "apple of His eye".

As we stated in NEWS1010, "Israel Key To End Time Events" God had repeatedly stated, in both Old and New Testaments, that He was going to restore Israel back to her land in the 'latter days', and would restore His betrothal to her. In other words, God was going to deal with Israel, again, as His Chosen People.

Since this is the case, let us first examine some of the promises God made to Israel, before Joshua led the nation into their 'Promised Land'. In the book of Deuteronomy, we read such promises as:

* "The Lord has declared this day that you are His peculiar people." (26:18)

* God promised that, if the Jews would obey His commandments, He would "set you high above all the nations of the earth", and would bless them in all manner of living and commerce. (28:1-14)

* God promised no military defeat, "When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt... For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you."

Think of that promise!! God will fight for Israel, giving her the victory, especially in situations where the Israelites were badly outnumbered! In fact, God gives some interesting insight into the totality of the victory He would give them what He promised, "The LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways." (Deuteronomy 28:7)

Again, In Deuteronomy 7:23, God promised to cause great panic to set in amongst the enemies of Israel as they were taking the Promised Land. [Note: The Bible Commentary, p. 222, states that the meaning of panic is in the original language).

Let us look at some startling statistics concerning Israel and her Arab neighbors. Tiny Israel, smaller than the state of New Jersey, is surrounded by a sea of hostile Arabs that want to see Israel annihilated and cast into the sea. Consider the statistics:

Total Arab Population Surrounding Israel = 232,434,000 (Source: United Nations World Population)

Total Population of Israel = 6,725,000 (Source: United Nations World Population)

Never in modern history have so few dominated so many so thoroughly. The Jews are outnumbered 35 to 1, and they still dominate the Arabs. How humiliating it must be for the Arabs not to be able to defeat such an outnumbered foe! Furthermore, it has not mattered that the Arabs succeeded in bringing the U.S.S.R. into the conflict on their side. Even though the Arabs were trained and equipped by the Russians, they have not been able to defeat Israel.

Does anyone here sense the Presence of Almighty God? Surely, no one who carefully considers this matter can reach no other conclusion. It would seem to me that, if the Arabs simply lined up 200 million people, armed with anything, they could overwhelm Israel with their sheer numbers. Yet, they do not, and God's protection is the only reason the Arabs cannot win.

Today, the Arabs are trying to win at the bargaining table what they could never win at the battlefield. And, incredibly, the Israelis seem to be giving it to them, originally led by the old War Hero, Yitzak Rabin, before he was assassinated. Time and again, I asked myself how battle tested Army Generals like Rabin, and later, Sharon, could be possibly pursuing policies that were so obviously militarily disastrous, policies that could likely so weaken Israel that she might be overcome by her Arab enemies. I have a theory, but first, I need to give you some prophetic background; we need to study some of God's prophecies concerning His restored Israel in the "Latter Days"

God has much to say about how He will treat Israel after He restored her to her land, in the "Latter Days". Generally, God will be protecting Israel as He did in the Old Testament, before she began to so terribly sin against His Commandments.

But, God is also going to remarkably demonstrate His Power and Glory in the "Latter Days", by stirring up the peoples around Israel to attack her, only so He can miraculously deliver her. The centerpiece of God's love and concern for Israel is Jerusalem. Listen to God's Plan for Jerusalem in these "Latter Days".

"Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it." (Zechariah 12:2-3)

Now, I appeal to everyone to carefully understand what God is foretelling in this remarkable prophecy, made almost 2,500 years ago! After He brings Israel back to her land, God is going to deliberately create the following situation to develop:

1). Little tiny Jerusalem is going to be the center of attention and agitation, for all the peoples who are living around it. These peoples, the Arabs living around Jerusalem, are going to be mightily agitated over Israeli control of Jerusalem.

2). The Arab peoples surrounding Jerusalem are going to come against it in such a way that the situation will appear as though they have Jerusalem surrounded, as in a siege. Later, in the Great Tribulation, we know that this is going to literally happen, i.e., an overwhelming enemy force is going to lay siege to Jerusalem, and will have begun to enter the city, when Messiah comes from Heaven to destroy them by speaking one Word. This annihilation is foretold in Revelation 16:16, and is called the Battle of Armageddon.

Certainly, today's newspapers tell a story that exactly corresponds to this prophetic picture, above, described in Paragraphs 1 and 2. The Arabs have Israel, and Jerusalem, completely surrounded in such an overwhelming manner that the average Israeli citizen must feel as though he is in a siege. And, the Arabs have succeeded in manipulating the Palestinians so that they are creating an Arab state within the tiny nation of Israel, a sharp dagger seemingly poised just inches away from the Jewish heart. In fact, when the "Oslo Peace Process" is completely carried out, Israel will be nearly cut off, North from the South, with only a narrow strip of land a few miles wide, joining the two segments.

One does not have to be a military genius to understand that, at that point, Israel will be in dire peril, militarily. If an attack came from within the newly created Arab state, Arab forces will have little difficulty cutting off the Northern segment of Israel from her Southern segment. Arab forces might be able to defeat Israel before her armed forces could be fully mobilized [it takes 72 hours to mobilize Israel's reserves].

Leaders like Arafat had always made it quite plain that he continually looked to the Koran for his current strategy in dealing with Israel. In the Koran, the Prophet Mohammed states that, if the Arabs face an enemy so strong they cannot defeat them, they are to sue for peace. Once peace gets underway, the Arabs are to secretly build up their forces, while simultaneously trying to lull their strong enemy to a false sense of security. Then, when the time is right, the Arab forces will spring into military action, totally defeating their enemy. This is Arafat's ruse, and he has been caught on tape explaining this ruse to other Arabs!

3). The final point God makes is that all who try to destroy Jerusalem shall, themselves, be cut into pieces. The picture here is that of a person falling upon a huge rock, being smashed into many pieces. Arab leaders -- are you listening?

In Amos 9:11, God foretells that, in the Last Days, he will cause the Old Testament Temple worship to be reestablished ["raise up the tabernacle of David ..."]. Then, in verse 12, God says that this restored Israel will possess the remnant of Edom. The people of Edom are the descendants of Esau, Jacob's older brother, and the present land which they inhabit is East of the River Jordan, which is mostly the land of Jordan, including the Palestinians.

In Verse 14, God foretells that His newly restored Israel shall be very prosperous both agriculturally and economically. Then, in verse 15, God says, "And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God." Do you hear that, Mr. Ahmadinejad, Mr. Assad? Once God restores Israel back to her land, in the "Latter Days", He will personally assume responsibility for protecting her, so much so that He confidently promises that the Jews will no longer be torn up out of their land.

Daniel 12:1 gives an interesting picture of how God's protection might be carried out. Speaking of the time of the End of the Age, God foretold that Israel was going to face such a threat of annihilation that the great angelic princely angel, Michael, is going to have to stand up from his throne to deliver Israel.

All Arab leaders who are currently plotting against Israel (and they all are) should take these warnings to heart. Of course they won't, because they despise the God of Israel, the Almighty Creator. They are literally fighting against God. This is why they have never been able to defeat Israel in the past, and why they never will in the future. All their plotting and scheming will not only result in defeat, it will result in total annihilation of their nation!

Consider Obadiah. Verse 15 abruptly shifts the emphasis to the "Day of the Lord", which is the End of the Age. The entire book is written to the Edomites, the descendants of Esau, who had so thoroughly afflicted Israel all throughout history. In verse 15, God foretells that He will bring judgments upon Edom and the entire house of Esau (these are the Arabs immediately surrounding Israel). God is telling that His physical judgment will begin to fall upon these Arabs for the way in which they have consistently mistreated Israel in the past [and, it would seem, in the present].

But, God uses extremely strong language here. He says, in verse 16, that these Arabs will be forced to completely drink from God's cup of Judgment, and they will be destroyed "as though they had not been". Wow! Does that mean that every Edomites (Palestinian) man, woman, and child will be killed? That is what the language says, and one thing I have learned in studying Prophetic Scripture is that God truly is literal, no matter what Modernists would have you believe.

In verse 17. God states that, on Mount Zion, which is in Jerusalem, the people shall be delivered, shall be holy once again, and that "the house of Jacob shall possess its own former possessions". (Bible Commentary, p. 1027)

Now, that is quite a statement! what could it possibly mean that, on Mount Zion, it shall be holy once again? I think it probably means that the Jews will be able to rebuild their Temple on the Temple Mount, which is Mount Zion. And, it also probably means that the Arabic Dome of the Rock will be torn down. Interestingly, the Plan of the New World Order calls for such a destruction of the Dome of the Rock, on page 233! Such a destruction, of course, will not be by human hands, but by an "expected earthquake". The New World Order author, Peter Lemesurier, states plainly that such a destruction would allow the Jews to rebuild their Temple, thus enhancing the "Messianic initiative". This means that such destruction would take place after the New World Order Christ has appeared, and has convinced the Jews that he is their long-awaited Messiah. This is just another exciting instance where New World Order Plans parallel Biblical prophecy.

Now, let us return to Obadiah, verse 18, states that a "fire" will be in the house of Jacob and a "flame" in the house of Joseph, which of course, speaks of the entire nation, Israel. This flaming fire evidently explodes out of the nation of Israel, absolutely engulfing the "House of Esau", burning them to stubble, consuming them so completely that there shall be no survivor of the House of Esau (today's Palestinians - Read NEWS2095)

Suddenly, all of Israel's immediate Palestinian enemies shall be totally gone, annihilated, by some kind of fire coming out of Israel. Verses 19-21 foretell that the Israelites will immediately possess all the land that was formerly inhabited by the House of Esau. This land corresponds to the following current Arab nations in the Middle East:

Now, let us speak of this "fire" exploding out of Israel and consuming the House of Esau. In June, 1990, I read an editorial in the Boston Jewish Advocate. The Jewish author was most adamant in describing the deadly threat that would exist if the Arab nations ever possessed tactical nuclear weapons. The opinion of these military leaders was that Israel had to carry out a preemptive strike before the Arabs could possess tactical nuclear weapons.

And, this meant total annihilation of the Arab nations, not just "winning" another war against them. Every war Israel has fought, since returning to her land, has only set the stage for the next war. In the case with nuclear weapons, Israel must totally annihilate her Arab enemy, for he otherwise would respond quickly with nuclear weapons. Total annihilation.

Israel has already decided to go to nuclear weapons if an Arab threat were deemed to be overwhelming. During the 1991 Gulf War, the Israeli Government warned King Hussein of Iraq that, if he launched any weapons of biological or chemical nature, they would respond with nuclear annihilation. So, the decision has already been made; it is just awaiting the precise timing and place of the use.

Now, we need to return to our discussion of the "Oslo Peace Process" now under way between tiny Israel and her Arab neighbors. The proposed "Land for Peace" process makes no military sense, as every military man in the world knows fully. Yet, the old generals, Rabin and Sharon, were fully pursuing just such a suicidal plan. Why?

I think, and this is purely personal opinion, that Israel's generals and top political leaders have sprung a trap for the Arabs to fall into, aiming directly at the instructions in the Koran of trying to use the "Peace Process" as a ruse to annihilate your enemy at the proper time, when he has let his guard down. I believe it possible that successive Israeli Prime Ministers decided to give the appearance to Arafat and the Arabs that he is giving in to their insistent demands for a Palestinian state within the heart of Israel, knowing full well they will use this state as the means with which to destroy Israel. With the entire world witnessing the complicity of the Arabs, in preparing to attack, Israel will strike preemptively.

While the Palestinians will be completely annihilated in fulfillment of Obadiah 15-18, the other Arab nations will be so destroyed their government will likely fall:

In Scripture, God foretells "Latter Day" judgments on these nations:



* Isaiah 13, a mournful judgment against Babylon of old, which today is Iraq

* Isaiah 15-16, a mournful judgment against Moab, which is East of the Jordan River, and one of Jordan's provinces today.

* Isaiah 17, a mournful judgment against Damascus, capital of Syria. Damascus is known today as the "world's most continuously occupied city". Since it was established, Damascus has never been totally destroyed; she has continuously been inhabited. Yet, God's prediction is that she will cease to be a city and will become a heap of ruins (17:1)

* Isaiah 19, a mournful judgment against Egypt, for destruction.

Each of these verses begin with God's standard phrase of judgment, "The mournful, inspired prediction, a burden to be lifted up". And, they have never been fulfilled. In contrast, the similar predictions of judgments found in Isaiah 21 through 23 have been historically fulfilled.

I find it very interesting, also, that these nations, listed above, are not listed in the nations who are going to be marching with Russia, from the south and the north of Israel, as foretold in Ezekiel 38-39! "Persia" (Iran) is mentioned, but none of these nations, above.

Understand this: in these last days of the age, Israel will be constantly attacked, and her defeat will seem imminent. But, God has promised that He will fight for her, annihilating her long time Arab enemies. How and when that "fire" and "flame" come exploding out of Israel will be a matter of conjecture until it actually happens.

But, this one thing I know: All other Arab leaders plotting Israel's destruction are engaged in "Mission Impossible". Their efforts will only result in their own destruction.

I wish Bill Lambert, the occultic leader of the House of Theosophy, to have the last word. In his seminar, "Possible and Probable Events In the Future", held in the Boston Headquarters of the House of Theosophy, on August 18, 1991, Lambert stated that the Middle East was a key as far as producing the New World Order Christ. He stated:

"The impetus toward this type of settlement is made possible only because of a general fear of war. This fear of war must be maintained until the desired political and religious changes have been instituted."

Watch Israel, one of God's keys to determining the imminent timing of the New World Order.

[DaSangarTalib]

The Quran says in 3-126 that victory comes only from Allah.
As Allah has granted victory to the Israelis in every war with Arab armies, it can be concluded that He agrees with the Jews settling back in their homeland.

lol yea sure

[Christian_dove]

lol yea sure

Point being?

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[Turin Turambar]

I think that izmi raises an interesting point. According to Muslims, every little thing that happens on this world is due to a direct decision by Allah. After all, the great "proof" that Muhammed offered his followers centuries ago was precisely the fact that he said he would win a battle because Allah was on his side and he actually won the battle. Everybody concluded that he was right, Allah was helping him.

What about today? It is clear that Muslims aren't winning battles any longer. Is there a point at which Muslims will have to conclude that they must be wrong since Allah is clearly not favoring them? After all Allah has to want the truth to prevail. If centuries pass and Muslims never again win a battle, isn't that proof that Islam is not what God really wants?

What would be the answer of a Muslim to this question? I am really interested. Thanks a lot.

[shorouk]

the muslims are weak ...
do u think or see those palestinians with weapons?? if they do: do they even compare with those of the Jews (which they happen to receive from america?)
so does it make sense for the jews to win? YES
theyve got it all weapons soldiers and power

and most imp.THEY GOT AMERICAS AID...!!!
the palestinians dont have any of the muslims or arab countries aid!!!!
so common sense which is not so common says that the jews win

its not because god forgot us he will never but we forgot him and we have weakened in ur faith and so we are getting wat we deserve,...

[ygalg]

the muslims are weak ...
do u think or see those palestinians with weapons?? if they do: do they even compare with those of the Jews (which they happen to receive from america?)
so does it make sense for the jews to win? YES
theyve got it all weapons soldiers and power

and most imp.THEY GOT AMERICAS AID...!!!
the palestinians dont have any of the muslims or arab countries aid!!!!
so common sense which is not so common says that the jews win

its not because god forgot us he will never but we forgot him and we have weakened in ur faith and so we are getting wat we deserve,...

you answer is not consistent to the nature of the question been raise
you give an atheistic POV while folks here like to know the theological answer

[ygalg]

apology in advance your last answer was sufficient.

[Turin Turambar]

Dear shorouk,

It seems that we keep bumping into each other in this forum. But unfortunately your answer is not satisfactory. I will repeat what ygalg said: your answer is for the most part a practical one and not a theological one. I guess that he later apologized because he realized that you added at the end

"its not because god forgot us he will never but we forgot him and we have weakened in ur faith and so we are getting wat we deserve,..."

And that should qualify as a theological explanation. But it is not enough for me. In fact palestinians today are more islamic than before and not less. Witness the election of Hamas instead of the secular PLO of Arafat. But palestinians and Muslims in general are still defeated.


So my point still stands. After how many years of defeat will Muslims realize that they are not actually following God's will? At some point they have to accept that God simply doesn't want Islam to expand, otherwise why is he dealing them only failures?

I would like to hear a islamic answer to that question

[ygalg]

Turin Turambar

you are correct, I was not aware of the last words of shorouk
not until I submit my own.

still it is no satisfactory. I agree

[abdul Majid]

Dear shorouk,

It seems that we keep bumping into each other in this forum. But unfortunately your answer is not satisfactory. I will repeat what ygalg said: your answer is for the most part a practical one and not a theological one. I guess that he later apologized because he realized that you added at the end

"its not because god forgot us he will never but we forgot him and we have weakened in ur faith and so we are getting wat we deserve,..."

And that should qualify as a theological explanation. But it is not enough for me. In fact palestinians today are more islamic than before and not less. Witness the election of Hamas instead of the secular PLO of Arafat. But palestinians and Muslims in general are still defeated.


So my point still stands. After how many years of defeat will Muslims realize that they are not actually following God's will? At some point they have to accept that God simply doesn't want Islam to expand, otherwise why is he dealing them only failures?

I would like to hear a islamic answer to that question

whats all this defeat about, why are you over looking the wars that have been won??? ex: agaist the roman army of about 100,000 muslims were only 13,000 and they won!!! you can look that up !!

GOD doesnt want ISLAM TO EXPAND ???????
HELLO this is a religion from GOD, A MERCY FROM GOD!! EVEN JEWISH AND CHRISTIANS CAN ADMIT THAT, ISLAM IS A REAL AND LAST RELIGION, MOHAMED(PBH) IS THE LASTTTT PROPHET!!!!!
THEN WHY IS ISLAM THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION IN THE WORLDDDD !!!!

[Salaam]

[Chuck]

What about today? It is clear that Muslims aren't winning battles any longer. Is there a point at which Muslims will have to conclude that they must be wrong since Allah is clearly not favoring them? After all Allah has to want the truth to prevail. If centuries pass and Muslims never again win a battle, isn't that proof that Islam is not what God really wants?

I don't think so, because Islam isn't dependent on winning or losing battles. If that was the case then Islam would have ended with the Mongols whom muslims weren't able to defeat either.

However, I do believe muslims should reflect on themselves and see where they are wrong. Prophet (pbuh) prophesized that his ummah will resemble the ummah of Moses (pbuh), and God did punish Jews when most of them had forgotten the good part of the message (according to Quran) given to them. So we muslims should double check if we have forgotten the good part of the message from our hearts. If prophet (pbuh) was here, then what he would have asked us to behave and to do?

[Turin Turambar]

To abdul Majid and Chuck:

Thanks for your answers. I will address them separately.

To abdul Majid: I am well aware that the Muslim armies won many wars in the past. That is how Islam expanded everywhere. I am sure that you are right when you mention those numbers (100,000 vs 13,000) although I had not heard about them. In any case, numbers are not really important. My point is different. What I am saying is that since Napoleon invaded Egypt in 1798 Muslim armies have never won a battle against non-Muslims and everywhere they have been losing power and influence. Could it be that God wanted Islam to prevail only during a certain period of history? After all, how could it be that Islam is losing all the battles if God wants it to expand until it prevails all over the world? It makes no sense to imagine God wanting Islam to expand but frustrated because something is opposing Him. If he is all-powerful, nothing can oppose his will. What happens in the world is exactly what he wants. And he seems to want Islam defeated. Could it be that exactly as Islam replaced the Jahiliya in Arabia now something new has to replace Islam and that is why God is causing the defeats of Islam?

Regarding your second point, Jews and Christians DO NOT believe or accept that Muhammed is a prophet, let alone the "seal of the prophets". We have a very different impression about who he was. About the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, I have my doubts about the fact because it is very difficult to measure how much is a religion growing in the world. I guess that when Muslims say that they probably refer to the population growth of those countries in which Muslims form a majority. But is that a source of strength or a proof that the religion is the right or true one? I think it is only due to the fact that Muslim countries tend to have very low levels of economic and social development so birth rates are very high. It is something shared by the countries of Subsaharan Africa and it shows weakness rather than strength.

I will answer to Chuck in another post.

[Turin Turambar]

To Chuck:

Thanks again for your answer. I think that you are getting close to what I mean. You recognize that Muslims are losing, so to speak, and you wonder what is the reason. That is exactly what I am doing. The difference is that you seem to think that MORE Islam is the solution and I am advancing the theory that perhaps LESS Islam would be the solution. After all during these 200 years of defeats (more or less) Muslim countries have been in fact very Islamic. Most of them still are. It is only now that other ways of thinking (the modern world) are entering those societies and even now those new ways of thinking have a difficult time in most Islamic countries.

And at the end Islam HAS to depend on winning or losing battles. Just for the sake of the argument, think for a moment of a global catastrophic war in which all Muslims are exterminated (not that I would like anything like that to happen). If there are no Muslims anymore, wasn't Islam defeated? And isn't the mere fact that Islam was defeated a proof that it was false to begin with? After all, what happens is what God wants. If God accepted the destruction of Muslims it means that he has different plans for us. And even without resorting to such a dramatic scenario, if we think of Muslims losing all battles until they are subordinated to non-Muslims, isn't that also a proof that God wants some other system to prevail?

[Chuck]

I am well aware that the Muslim armies won many wars in the past. That is how Islam expanded everywhere. I am sure that you are right when you mention those numbers (100,000 vs 13,000) although I had not heard about them. In any case, numbers are not really important. My point is different. What I am saying is that since Napoleon invaded Egypt in 1798 Muslim armies have never won a battle against non-Muslims and everywhere they have been losing power and influence. Could it be that God wanted Islam to prevail only during a certain period of history? After all, how could it be that Islam is losing all the battles if God wants it to expand until it prevails all over the world? It makes no sense to imagine God wanting Islam to expand but frustrated because something is opposing Him. If he is all-powerful, nothing can oppose his will. What happens in the world is exactly what he wants. And he seems to want Islam defeated. Could it be that exactly as Islam replaced the Jahiliya in Arabia now something new has to replace Islam and that is why God is causing the defeats of Islam?

I see whats making the confusion.
1. You are equating rise and fall of the civilizations with the success of a religion, which will continue to move up and down in the long-run imo. Allah do give worldly victory to the prophets. For example, prophet Moses, Muhammand, and he will give it to Jesus (pbut) upon his second coming, but these are not real victories for believers they are just signs and symbols. The actual victory is on the Day of Judgment when the believers will see their Lord, their God with their book of records on the right side. The prophet (pbuh) prophesized adversities and tribulations for muslims and Dajjal, but he also prophesied short victory of Islam all over the world with the return of Jesus (pbuh), but like I said it is not the actual victory, the actual victory is on the day of judgment.

He says: “Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods, lives and the fruits (of your toil) but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere. Those who, when misfortune strikes them, say: ‘Indeed we belong to Allah and to Him is our return. Those are the ones upon whom are blessings and mercy from their Lord and it is those who are rightly guided.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 155]

Allah says: “Every soul shall taste of death. And We will test you with evil and with good by way of trial. And to Us is your return.” [Sûrah al-Anbiyâ’: 35].

Allah says: “It is He who created death and life that He may try you as to which of you is best in deeds.” [Sûrah al-Mulk: 2]

2. You are confusing spread of the religion with dominant party or negativity against a religion (in our discussion specifically Islam).

The fastest-growing religion

Today, Islam is the second-largest religion on earth. According to various sources, just over a fifth of the world's population is Muslim. Only Christianity is larger, comprising 33 percent of the population. But Islam is by far the fastest-growing religion on the planet, with a growth rate estimated at 2.8%-2.9% per year.

One explanation for this increase is that the birth rate in Muslim countries is much higher than in the majority of Christian countries (a reasoning popular among Christian missionaries), while others say that most of Muslim growth in Europe and the US comes from immigration, rather than conversion.

However, numerous studies indicate that the rapid growth of Islam in the United States, Canada, Latin America and sub-Saharan Africa is, in fact, due to conversion. There are also surveys that point out the following phenomenon: a wave of conversion to Islam in the US and Europe following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. Pan-Arab newspapers such as Al-Hayat and A-Sharq al-Awsat, as well as The New York Times, The Guardian and The Los Angeles Times, have reported an increasing interest in Islam in the US, which in many cases results in a conversion.

But Muhammad Mahdi Sharovsky, a Muslim based in Hebron who was once a Kiryat Arba settler and religious Jew, doesn't think that there is a correlation between the dreadful event and the wave of conversion to Islam in the West.

"Perhaps there is more awareness of Islam in the West after these events, but I'm sure that conversion is more a result of a personal growth, understanding, studying and quest," he says.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...icle%2FPrinter

[Hashim_507]

People stick with one topic and subject.

[Chuck]

I think that you are getting close to what I mean. You recognize that Muslims are losing, so to speak, and you wonder what is the reason. That is exactly what I am doing. The difference is that you seem to think that MORE Islam is the solution and I am advancing the theory that perhaps LESS Islam would be the solution. After all during these 200 years of defeats (more or less) Muslim countries have been in fact very Islamic. Most of them still are. It is only now that other ways of thinking (the modern world) are entering those societies and even now those new ways of thinking have a difficult time in most Islamic countries.

My previous post answers most issues you have raised here, but I like to add one thing that most Islamic countries are not based on Islamic priniciples; for example they have corruption, lack of shura (consultation) mentality, violence and lack of value of life (brothers are killing brothers), charity, etc....

And at the end Islam HAS to depend on winning or losing battles. Just for the sake of the argument, think for a moment of a global catastrophic war in which all Muslims are exterminated (not that I would like anything like that to happen). If there are no Muslims anymore, wasn't Islam defeated?

Don't know, I'm sorry I don't have the ability to look into the future with truly predictable results. Only God knows, God can raise Islam again.

And isn't the mere fact that Islam was defeated a proof that it was false to begin with?

I don't think victory or defeat in worldly battles have any bearing on the truth or falsity of the religion. Read my previous post.

After all, what happens is what God wants. If God accepted the destruction of Muslims it means that he has different plans for us. And even without resorting to such a dramatic scenario, if we think of Muslims losing all battles until they are subordinated to non-Muslims, isn't that also a proof that God wants some other system to prevail?

Maybe God is testing us and wants to make us better in Islam.

[Chuck]

"People stick with one topic and subject."
Sorry brother.

[shorouk]

ok well mayb i didnt give enuf support to my wordings and to that i apologize...
ok for some reason i love history and for that i will bring u bak to some...excuse me:)
ok if u noe global history well u must noe something about islamic history

as u noe or will noe is that at a certain point in gloal history islam was living its golden age...
it prospered and muslims expanded into many many countries of the world ...
they entered countries foreign to islam and allowed islam to b known and accepted and they ruled by it...

ok if u read in the textbooks about this or even a very general global history book or even a high school textbook u will see that wen teh writers ( non muslim or muslim) will explain some of the factors that lead to the muslims prosper...

from among the main or first reason they say is because of their strong powerful FAITH!!in islam of course ( no corruption)

now allow me to say this is written without a doubt...
and it makes sense too for them to b successful
now look here there are some "strong christians " who do bad things who abuse who are injust who kill and murder who steal and corrupt and they are prospering...
ehem ehem: bush:D our lovely president
do u not agree that he has done so much rong??? thAT he has abused iraqis for example in the name of democracy??
he is a bad guy lets face a criminal to b exact and yet he is propspering his country has bcome a superpower controllong all commanding all...\
does god favor him?? if he does for wat??

ok there are some drug dealers who succeed for years or their whole lifetime selling the forbidden ...harming millions and they are never found... and so tehy make soo much $$$$$ does god favor them???

u see its not about if god is favoring us or not
god sometimes tests ppl so that he may noe where u will end up: hell or heaven...
u see nowadays muslims are not doign wat they are supposed to do...
the muslim ppl have left their nature and have bcome corrupt...
and there are verses which unfort. i dont have on me now but i will soon which say to the muslims the day u forget allah he will too forget u and wen u come bak to him he will b there.. sth like that makes sense...

u see islam is not about being mean or oppressing
if u read about it or even ask about it u will see that islam is all about perfecting socitey its laws tell us to love our parents , to not backbite and nott to instegate... to not gamble or drink or eat pork( because pork and beer harm our bodies)
its laws tell us to b just to stand up to the truth... to b anythign but liars to b tolerant and to respect every1 muslim or non muslim
during wars we are not allowed to burn or bring down a church or sanagogge or any place of worship...
srry i got carried away but plz have a wider view....
if u look at matters the way u do u wont udnerstand my view...\
but as u see muslims are not following islam any more the muslim countries goverments are bulid on hypocrisy. lies and much more how do u wnat us to propser as muslims???
alot of muslim countires are poor because muslims have left teh faith have left tehir morals.... and so this is the result....
u noe there is this thing in islam called zakaa and this is rquired on every muslim in the quran .... but muslims dotn pay it ... if every muslim payed it there would b no poor... so soem muslims dont pay....and so --------->
i trully hope for there to always b peace between christians, muslims and jews
i hope one day we can all live in a socitey where we accept, understand and love one another...
peace on all of u ...:D

[shorouk]

Turin Turambar ;
After all during these 200 years of defeats (more or less) Muslim countries have been in fact very Islamic. Most of them still are.

u saidn this but ... im very sorry u are wrong visit a muslim country first and trust me u wouldnt say that
im egyptian and ive been there several times ... and see it on arabic tv etc etc...

i dotn think soo....
name me one country that majority of it is mostly religious... but u have to have trusted sources or u wnet there personally and spotted this...
mayb palestine bcuz of is state even many of my frends has been there recnetly and yet there are mnay bad muslims...

[songinwind]

whats all this defeat about, why are you over looking the wars that have been won??? ex: agaist the roman army of about 100,000 muslims were only 13,000 and they won!!! you can look that up !!

GOD doesnt want ISLAM TO EXPAND ???????
HELLO this is a religion from GOD, A MERCY FROM GOD!! EVEN JEWISH AND CHRISTIANS CAN ADMIT THAT, ISLAM IS A REAL AND LAST RELIGION, MOHAMED(PBH) IS THE LASTTTT PROPHET!!!!!
THEN WHY IS ISLAM THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION IN THE WORLDDDD !!!!

So well said brother:bravo: ..even USA has now said this "Islam is fasting growing religion":)

[miseshayek]

As someone who is a Jew, I have to say that I find this thread to be offensive and reprehensible. Jews are accustomed to Christians reinterpreting their scriptures to justify Christian escatology, and such is excusable when it goes to the core of Christianity [e.g., the otherwise unjustifiable belief that Jesus was the Jewish messiah]. However, when such reinterpretation of our scriptures is for the purpose of creating discord between Jews and other people [in this case Muslims] it is WAY over the line.

There are, of course, crazies in every religion who misuse their traditions for bad purposes, and we Jews have some such around the so-called "Temple Institute," in the Koch movement and among the "settlers." But most Jews [around 98% or more] simply would disagree 100% with what is being pushed as our "destiny" in this thread.

Indeed, all but a very small minority of Jews would tell you that Jews don't believe in destiny. Their religion is about choice between good and evil, not about a world in which human beings are puppets being manipulated by a G_d who has already stacked the deck.

[ygalg]

EVEN JEWISH AND CHRISTIANS CAN ADMIT THAT, ISLAM IS A REAL AND LAST RELIGION, MOHAMED(PBH) IS THE LASTTTT PROPHET!!!!!
THEN WHY IS ISLAM THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION IN THE WORLDDDD !!!!

nope we cannot admit on something it is not true at least from our POV (sorry)

[Turin Turambar]

Chuck:

Thanks for your answer. I will focus on one of the last things you said

"I don't think victory or defeat in worldly battles have any bearing on the truth or falsity of the religion"

How could that be? If there is a true religion, that says exactly what God really wants, how could that religion fail? Who is opposing God and making his plans fail? If God is all-powerful, that doesn't makes sense. What He wants is what happens, and that's it.

And the truth is that in the case of Islam worldly battles were the key to the success it had for a while. The primitive arabs believed in Muhammad precisely because he was winning battles, he could show in a practical way that Allah was really on his side. And when modern Muslims say with pride that "Islam expanded so fast because it is true" aren't they also saying that the truth of Islam depends on its winning battles? Because saying that "Islam exapanded" is the same as saying "Islam won battles". That is how the expansion of islam happened! Egypt and Syria were Christian, Iran (Persia) was Magian (Zoroastrian) and today they are mostly Muslim. How did that happen? Did they decide to imitate their neighbors the primitive Arabs? Of course not! Muslim armies invaded those countries and that is how Islam expanded. And that expansion is what makes you believe Islam is true.

So my question is still valid. If Islam is not expanding anymore and is on the contrary losing all battles, isn't that a proof that it is not true?

[abdul Majid]

nope we cannot admit on something it is not true at least from our POV (sorry)

ACTUALLY THATS YOUR OPINION YOU DONT SPEAK FOR EVERY ONE OF THEM!!!

[Turin Turambar]

But ygalg is saying something obvious when he says that Muhammad is not recognized by the Jews as a prophet. And with all humility I can speak for the Christians and say the same. For us Muhammad is NOT a prophet. This is not a matter on which you will have two opinions among Jews and Christians.

[abdul Majid]

Oh So You Speak For The Billions Of Christians Huh..lol

Can I Get Your Autograph By The Way, You Must Be Real Famous To Represent All These People

SO HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE QURAN ???? AND I GUESS YOU NEVER RESEARCHED PROPHET MUHAMMED(PBH)...

[Chuck]

How could that be? If there is a true religion, that says exactly what God really wants, how could that religion fail? Who is opposing God and making his plans fail? If God is all-powerful, that doesn't makes sense. What He wants is what happens, and that's it.

You need to consider the following points together:
1. We don't know the end result, which includes afterlife.
2. From an Islamic POV this world is a testing ground so both good times and bad times are part of the plan of God. We are supposed to show peity in both.
3. This world is very short temporary abode. Life after the Day of Judgment is the real life which is eternal.

And the truth is that in the case of Islam worldly battles were the key to the success it had for a while. The primitive arabs believed in Muhammad precisely because he was winning battles, he could show in a practical way that Allah was really on his side. And when modern Muslims say with pride that "Islam expanded so fast because it is true" aren't they also saying that the truth of Islam depends on its winning battles? Because saying that "Islam exapanded" is the same as saying "Islam won battles". That is how the expansion of islam happened! Egypt and Syria were Christian, Iran (Persia) was Magian (Zoroastrian) and today they are mostly Muslim. How did that happen? Did they decide to imitate their neighbors the primitive Arabs? Of course not! Muslim armies invaded those countries and that is how Islam expanded. And that expansion is what makes you believe Islam is true.

You have a lot of misunderstanding about Islamic POV, and I'm sorry I don't really have time to educate you on this one. Maybe someone else can help you. But in short I'll say you are missing the Makkan era of persecution and the bigger picture.

So my question is still valid. If Islam is not expanding anymore and is on the contrary losing all battles, isn't that a proof that it is not true?

Islam is still spreading; you can check internally reputable reporting organizations like CNN, NYTimes, etc.... Anyway, even if Islam cease to spread you will be wrong from Islamic POV.

[ygalg]

ACTUALLY THATS YOUR OPINION YOU DONT SPEAK FOR EVERY ONE OF THEM!!!

I am one of them

[ygalg]

Can I Get Your Autograph By The Way, You Must Be Real Famous To Represent All These People

:giggling: and your claim for jews recognizing Muhammad to be a prophet, it is no better gesture

[Turin Turambar]

To abdul Majid,

Of course I can speak for all Christians on this matter and it is not because I am particularly powerful or famous. I wish I was...;)

When you say "So You Speak For The Billions Of Christians" regarding my assertion that Christians don't consider Muhammed as a prophet you are failing to see that in the definition of Christian it is implied that we don't accept him as a prophet. What you say would be equivalent to saying "how do you know all weightlifters lift weights, have you talked to all of them, perhaps some of them don't" Well, if they didn't lift weights, they wouldn't be weightlifters!

The fact is that all Christians consider Jesus the central event of Creation and the end of the period of prophecy. That is why they are Christians to begin with. Jesus was the object of all prophecies so after Him there can be no more prophets. If you believe something different, you are not a Christian. After Jesus anybody claiming to be a prophet is lying. That includes anybody claiming to be a prophet 600 years after Jesus.

So I repeat what I said. Christians DO NOT consider Muhammad a prophet. We have a very different opinion of him.

[abdul Majid]

so why did jesus(pbh) say that some one named ahmed is gonna come after him????

and if you reserach about PROPHET MOHAMED(PBH) youll see he is a prophet and the last one at that !!

[Turin Turambar]

To abdul Majid,

That statement about "some one named ahmed" is something I have read before, but only in Muslim websites. There is no HINT of anything like that in Christian scriptures or Christian doctrine as it has developed for 2,000 years. It is an invention of Muslim apologists.

And I have done research about Muhammad, believe me, I have read a lot about him. I began reading about him after 9/11 and I am still reading.

[abdul Majid]

Dear Turin

I Beleive You Know That The Bible Is Not Complete, There Is No Original !! Only Added On And Completed By People After Christ !! So How Would You Know?

[akulion]

Salam Alaikum

Well it seems a lot of misinformation is going around in this thread in relation to Islam.

Misinformation
1. Arabs believe in Mohammed(s) as being a prophet because he claimed to win wars

Truth
Mohammed(s) even before he recieved revelation was known for his good charcteristics and was called "Sadiq Ya Amin" (meaning honest and trustyworthy) by the Pagan Arabs as well as the Jewish and Others around who knew him. When he eventually did recieve revelation it was actually the beauty of Islam that brought people to Islam. Apart from this Mohammed (s) also performed some miracles for the people who kept asking. Prophets Miracles


Misinformation
Islam was spread through the sword and via co-ercing people to believe or they would be killed

Truth
Firstly it is against Islamic teachings to impose faith upon anyone by force.
Secondly in the pre Islamic Arabia most pagan societies were very supressive and ignorant. With the advent of Islam people started embracing Islam in large numbers over time because for the first time in history women were given equal rights, a slave was given equal staus to a free man and freedom of religion and worship was declared.

The Muslim missionaries were exceptionally successful in preaching Islam to the people of other lands and as a result large numbers were converting to Islam. seeing this the govts of such lands started ordering the Muslims to be executed. This led to letters being issued to their leaders to stop the persecution and supression. Eventually due to them not stopping resulted in war. Once the land was captured even alarger numbers of people would embrace Islam solely based on the fact that it was giving them rights which they had never dreamed about.

Some simple exmaples of the atrocities of the Non Muslim governments which are well documented in historic documents include:

Women were being crucified when they would ask for their rights. This act was 100% supported by the Christian Church and the women were labelled Witches.

Church would ordered deniers of Jesus killed and they were labelled blasphemers

Scientists who were coming up with new theories which were in contradiction to Christian preachings were being killed and labelled as Heritics.

In pagan lands (including pre Islamic Arabia) women children used to be burried alive because they were considered a burden.

Misinformation
Muslim god is false because Muslims are losing battles now and arent doing so good

Truth
Allah swt in the Quran clearly states that he is merciful to all his creation irrespective of their religion. He provides for all people. It is not a case of "if you are Muslim u will get everything and if you arent you wont get anything".
Life is a trial for the believers - and thus God indeed tests people with poverty as well as riches, with success as well as defeat. Therefore Allah swt has made it clear in the Quran that to each nation and to each people he shall appoint a given term (in which they will have power) and when that term is up they will reach a decline.
In the past we see the Egyprians, Greeks, Romans, etc etc all come to power and then fade. Same way the Islamic Empire was once the light of the world and faded. Now the secular west is on top and will eventually fade to be replace by another some day or the other.

So this is actually a system of Allah that every nation and people will be put t test and trial both through success and power and through failure and poverty.


Misconception
Islam has failed because there is no Islamic state thus Allah cant be God

Truth
Islam is not a "thing" it is a way of life and a belief. As long as Islam lives in the hearts of people it can not be defeated. Currently there are 2,1 Billion Muslims world wide Alhamdolillah and this number is expanding at rates which have now earned Islam the title of "The Fastest Growing Religion on Earth"
Thereofre Islam has not failed but rather is on the rise Alhamdolillah

Misconception
Muslms believe everything that happens on this Earth is because of Allah

Truth
Allah swt has created the universe and it runs according to his will.
However humanity has been granted free will. We can use this free will to destroy or create. So when mankind spreads destruction around the world it is from his free will, not an act of God. Allah swt sees the efforts of a people and accordingly decides upon it.
Look at "qadr" or "predestination" with this example:
We are all on a big highway
Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, etc etc etc....
We are all travelling towards the same Goal - God (in Arabic Allah)
On this road are many turns and hurdles as well.
we cannot change the turns or hurdles - this is ordained by the creator.
We however have the option of driving safely upon this road.
We can choose to be wreckless in which case we lose.
Or we can choose to drive safely - in which case we win.
The creator of the road has also sent down instruction manual for people to follow.
We can choose to accept it or reject it.
Some people believe there is no creator of the road (atheists)
Some people believe the creator of the road sent his son so that we wont have to obey the rule book anymore and be accountable for our mistakes (Christians)
Some people believe they are choosen by the creator thus it dosent matter what happens because they are choosen (Jews)
Some believe the creator of the Road is one and will judge them according to their efforts for following the rule book (Muslims)
Others follow other theories (hindus, buddhists, wiccans, etc etc)
Some people have choosen to write their own rule books and follow them.
The creator of the road has also put "signs" up around the road for people to see and ponder upon so they can establish which rule book to follow.
Thus accordingly whoever made sound judgement and is driving best and according to the correct rules - will recieve the prize from God (heaven)

-----------------------------
I know this may not be the best of examples but this is what I could come up in my mind for now - hope it helps people understand what I am trying to say.

So basically we act on this Earth - But God runs the Earth.

Well I will stop here - I sincerely hope my input will help clearify some concerns for people.

salam Alaikum

[Turin Turambar]

To abdul Majid,

You are touching on an important point. The concept of Holy Scripture for Christians and Muslims is different.

When Jesus was alive he never did what Muhammed would later do. He never stood up and said "Silence, I am receiving a message from God and it says that you have to obey me". Jesus never gave us a "recitation". He taught with his example, he performed miracles, he died and he rose from the dead. The people around him were so impressed by what they had seen that they began teaching his message. Only YEARS after his death would some of them put in writing what they had seen and heard. And they never claimed that it was a "recitation from God". It was simply their story about all the wonders they had seen. It was exactly what you would do if you had met an incredible person and you wanted to leave something written for others to know about him. It was natural.

Muhammed did something very different, because he wanted power during his own life. He wouldn't wait to be dead before being recognized as a prophet. That is why he invented the idea of the "recitation from above", because it gave him an opportunity to use that trick whenever he wanted his followers to do something. Whenever he encountered a problem, the angel came with the best solution for HIM.

Please listen to what I am saying. Go and get more information from the websites of Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina. I don't know you but believe me, I only want the best for you.

[abdul Majid]

lol....you said Mohamed (pbh) wanted power???

Then you know nothing about him(pbh)....he had power, and he preformed many mircles, including the quran, buddy !!!
He never used a trick , as you say ok!!!

And what was Jesus's mesage(pbh)?? he preformed miricles just as Prophet MOhamed(pbh), and people started worshiping him, becuase they dont understand that GOD gave him this power, to show them hes just not any regular guy and hes a massenger..duhhhh, they never understood, PAUL IS THE ONE WHO STARTED WORSHIPING JESUS(PBH), THATS HOW THIS NOTION OF HIM BEING GOD OR THE SON OF GOD STARTED.....

HE NEVER SAID HE WAS GOD OR THE SON OF GOD!!!!!!!
HE ALWAYS SAID HE WAS A PLAIN MASSENGERRRRRRRR

HELLO, LISTEN DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, HERES A FORMER PREISTTTT WHO KNOWS MORE THAN YOU!!!! HE WILL TELL YOU, HE KNOWS THE TRUTH THATS WHY HE IS MUSLIM NOW !!!


http://WWW.ISLAMTOMORROW.COM

[Turin Turambar]

I will visit it if you promise to visit Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina! Both of them were Muslims, one born in Pakistan and one in Iran. Remember that I am not trying to get any power or advantage over you. I just want you to see things from a new point of view.

[abdul Majid]

I Agree Turin

[akulion]

I think rather than listen to strange unaccredited people off the net called "Ali Sina and Ibn Warraq" whose identities nor their "status" as apostates can be verified, We would be much better off reading what some famous people in the past have had to say about Mohammed(s)

Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823

The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab.

Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924.

I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.

Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,' New York, 1978.

My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.

Napolean Bonaparte as Quoted in Cherfils, ‘Bonaparte et Islam,’ Paris, France, pp. 105, 125.

"Moses has revealed the existence of God to his nation. Jesus Christ to the Roman world, Muhammad to the old continent...
"Arabia was idolatrous when, six centuries after Jesus, Muhammad introduced the worship of the God of Abraham, of Ishmael, of Moses, and Jesus. The Ariyans and some other sects had disturbed the tranquility of the east by agitating the question of the nature of the Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost. Muhammad declared that there was none but one God who had no father, no son and that the trinity imported the idea of idolatry...

"I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness."

Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."
"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity."

"I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."

[anis_z24]

the muslims are weak ...
do u think or see those palestinians with weapons?? if they do: do they even compare with those of the Jews (which they happen to receive from america?)
so does it make sense for the jews to win? YES
theyve got it all weapons soldiers and power

and most imp.THEY GOT AMERICAS AID...!!!
the palestinians dont have any of the muslims or arab countries aid!!!!
so common sense which is not so common says that the jews win

its not because god forgot us he will never but we forgot him and we have weakened in ur faith and so we are getting wat we deserve,...

Salam
we Muslims have a burden on our shoulders, we have a message to mankind.
We have become astray. And when that happens do you think that we will be victorious. no. not until we go back to the prophets(pbuh) way.
As we all know that know can harm any one only with Allah's permission.
And we have been harmed because we don't follow our Prophets way. Ex battle of Uhud.Ex battle of Hunayn. Numbers don't matter to Allah.Its the Iman. Insh'Allah this will all change, and we'll be the ones to take the Ummah up again.

[*Hana*]

He taught with his example, he performed miracles, he died and he rose from the dead. The people around him were so impressed by what they had seen that they began teaching his message. Only YEARS after his death would some of them put in writing what they had seen and heard.

Yes, He did perform miracles, but by the will of who??? As He Himself said, "...on my own I can do nothing." He told them it is only through GOD'S will he performs them. Funny how you all forget that little part. When did He die exactly? We know for sure it wasn't on the "third" day. How?? When He went to His disciples He was HUMAN....not dead. He tells them, he's not a spirit as a spirit doesn't have skin and bones as he has. A spirit doesn't eat, yet, He ate. Read your bible more carefully, it clearly describes a spiritual being compared to a mortal being. He was DEFINITELY mortal!! Do you know who wrote the books contained in the Bible?? If you made that discovery, you might want to inform your Biblical Scholars, because they don't know. None of the disciples were witnesses to His "crucifixion". They all left Him. Not ONE word was written in His lifetime...not ONE. When 3 people see an event, do you get the exact same description...word for word?? Explain how that happens in the bible. Why does John differ so drastically from the Synoptics? Could it be because the author NEVER knew Jesus, pbuh? Was NEVER taught by Jesus, pbuh? But, was taught by a self-appointed apostle, Paul. Paul changed the teachings of Jesus, pbuh, but you accept it, why? Who gave him that authority?

Prophet Muhammed, pbuh, wanted power? What power did He have? He lived in poverty, but could have been rich beyond imagination. He could have destroyed and ruled countries, but never did. Why do you suppose He was named the most influential man in history. Where did Jesus, pbuh, rank? Fourth, after...guess who?? The founder of your Christianity....Paul!!

Neither Jesus nor Muhammed, pbut, claimed divinity at anytime! They both stated everything they taught came from God. YOU gave Jesus, pbuh, the title of a divine being through the writings of Paul.

You want to speak of trickery....look no further than Paul!!! He has fooled you into believing HIS teaching while dismissing the word of God that was taught by Jesus, pbuh.

I strongly suggest, if you want to learn the truth, you remove your blinders and actually read the bible and read the Qur'an with an open mind for both and with understanding.

And please don't come here as a wolf in sheep's clothing. You are attacking our Prophet, pbuh, by making slanderous comments about Him, and in the next breath saying it's not your intent. We are not a group of fools here and can see clearly what you are doing. If you want to make a claim....do as Muslims do....show respect and bring your proof!

Hana

[shorouk]

abdul Majid
i think ur really pushing ur islamic belief into other ppls faces obvisiouly if ppl are christians they believe in jesus and if they are jewish they believe in moses so plz stop being sarcastic and acting liike ur so right have an open mind...
even though im muslim ur wrds are somewhat offensive...
thank u

[abdul Majid]

Uhh Can You Quote Me Sister?? I Dont Appreiate You Saying That Im Forcen Anything....becuz I Dont, I Just Say The Truth?? Why Are You Offended By That?? ANYWAY LETS STICK TO THE TOPIC

[shorouk]

lol....you said Mohamed (pbh) wanted power???

Then you know nothing about him(pbh)....he had power, and he preformed many mircles, including the quran, buddy !!!
He never used a trick , as you say ok!!!

And what was Jesus's mesage(pbh)?? he preformed miricles just as Prophet MOhamed(pbh), and people started worshiping him, becuase they dont understand that GOD gave him this power, to show them hes just not any regular guy and hes a massenger..duhhhh, they never understood, PAUL IS THE ONE WHO STARTED WORSHIPING JESUS(PBH), THATS HOW THIS NOTION OF HIM BEING GOD OR THE SON OF GOD STARTED.....

HE NEVER SAID HE WAS GOD OR THE SON OF GOD!!!!!!!
HE ALWAYS SAID HE WAS A PLAIN MASSENGERRRRRRRR

abdul Majid
i agree with u on this one our prophet moahmed peace b upon him did not want power and if u read his history he never became a ruler just a guide to muslims life...

christians and jews need to make sure u are reading from trusted sources...

[abdul Majid]

To abdul Majid,

You are touching on an important point. The concept of Holy Scripture for Christians and Muslims is different.

When Jesus was alive he never did what Muhammed would later do. He never stood up and said "Silence, I am receiving a message from God and it says that you have to obey me". Jesus never gave us a "recitation". He taught with his example, he performed miracles, he died and he rose from the dead. The people around him were so impressed by what they had seen that they began teaching his message. Only YEARS after his death would some of them put in writing what they had seen and heard. And they never claimed that it was a "recitation from God". It was simply their story about all the wonders they had seen. It was exactly what you would do if you had met an incredible person and you wanted to leave something written for others to know about him. It was natural.

Muhammed did something very different, because he wanted power during his own life. He wouldn't wait to be dead before being recognized as a prophet. That is why he invented the idea of the "recitation from above", because it gave him an opportunity to use that trick whenever he wanted his followers to do something. Whenever he encountered a problem, the angel came with the best solution for HIM.

Please listen to what I am saying. Go and get more information from the websites of Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina. I don't know you but believe me, I only want the best for you.

lol .....sister i think you misunderstood me
i was talking to my friend turin,
about him sayin that ...""Muhammed did something very different, because he wanted power during his own life."'

so i responded he didnt want power, he wasnt doing this for himself...do you agree sister??

p.s never said he was a ruler

[akulion]

On the contorary - Prophet Mohammed(s) was the Khalifa and the Prophet of the Muslims. Therefore he was indeed the ruler of the Kaliphate and the leader of the Muslims :)

However he never seeked power

[*Hana*]

abdul Majid
i think ur really pushing ur islamic belief into other ppls faces obvisiouly if ppl are christians they believe in jesus and if they are jewish they believe in moses so plz stop being sarcastic and acting liike ur so right have an open mind...
even though im muslim ur wrds are somewhat offensive...
thank u

Salam Alaikum Sister:

Actually, I feel I have to speak up here. Brother Abdul was, and rightfully so, upset at the negative, inappropriate comment made about our Prophet, pbuh. This is an Islamic Forum, and although all are welcome to come learn, it should be done with respect. Referring to our Prophet, pbuh, as a trickster, is NOT appropriate and, quite frankly, it made me angry as well. If anyone should have their fingers slapped, it should have been Turin, not brother Abdul

This man is a Christian pushing his faith here by raising Jesus, pbuh, while calling Muhammed, pbuh, a liar (Trickster). This is not acceptable behaviour on an Islamic forum.

Allah, swt, knows best.

Wasalam
Hana

[anis_z24]

Salam
This I swear is the only issue. Once its fixed everything will go fine Insh'Allah.
The fact that we are not orginized.
The days are between us(people of the book). And we will see who will be victorious and who Jesus(PBUH) really was.

[ygalg]

abdul Majid
i think ur really pushing ur islamic belief into other ppls faces obvisiouly if ppl are christians they believe in jesus and if they are jewish they believe in moses so plz stop being sarcastic and acting liike ur so right have an open mind...
even though im muslim ur wrds are somewhat offensive...
thank u

I appreciate your way of respect to others view hopefully it will increase among us all that will be heavenly. on one account I have to correct you. we jews don't believe in moses, our faith is towards G-d alone. moses is personage like others were, but he is no Deity to us. we don't pray to him.

ygalg

[Falafel Eater]

I think that izmi raises an interesting point. According to Muslims, every little thing that happens on this world is due to a direct decision by Allah. After all, the great "proof" that Muhammed offered his followers centuries ago was precisely the fact that he said he would win a battle because Allah was on his side and he actually won the battle. Everybody concluded that he was right, Allah was helping him.

What about today? It is clear that Muslims aren't winning battles any longer. Is there a point at which Muslims will have to conclude that they must be wrong since Allah is clearly not favoring them? After all Allah has to want the truth to prevail. If centuries pass and Muslims never again win a battle, isn't that proof that Islam is not what God really wants?

What would be the answer of a Muslim to this question? I am really interested. Thanks a lot.

You will find out here, why the Muslims are weak today, according to the Quran and Hadith:
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...eak-today.html

[sweetangel16]

ygalg
oo yes i know that u guys do not pray to prophet moses peace b uopn him but u follow his message and consider him to b the true prophet
just like muslims we worship god alone but we follow prophet mohammed (his teachings) peace b upon him...
we muslim though are a little different we believe, love, respect prophet jesus moses and mohamed peace b upon them and all 3 are mentioned in our quran with respect...:D

[Falafel Eater]

ygalg
oo yes i know that u guys do not pray to prophet moses peace b uopn him but u follow his message and consider him to b the true prophet
just like muslims we worship god alone but we follow prophet mohammed (his teachings) peace b upon him...
we muslim though are a little different we believe, love, respect prophet jesus moses and mohamed peace b upon them and all 3 are mentioned in our quran with respect...:D

Islam carries on the same message that Abraham brought. That of pure monotheism.

What Religion did Abraham follow? Islam of course, and here is why.
http://turntoislam.com/pages/dawah_v...am_follow.html

[miseshayek]

You will find out here, why the Muslims are weak today, according to the Quran and Hadith:
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...eak-today.html

Thank you for posting this link. There is much wisdom expressed here. I particularly wish that our political "leaders" in America would pay attention to this observation:

"The ummah in this day and age has made this worldly life its primary pursuit and objective. For this reason they have become afraid of death and what it will bring. They love this worldly life they are immersed in, completely forgetting the importance of preparing for the Hereafter. This was one of the things that the Messenger of Allaah (saws) feared for his ummah.

'Abdullaah bin 'Amr bin al-'Aas (raa) narrated that the Prophet (saws) said: "If you conquer Persia and Rome, what type of people will you be?" 'Abdur-Rahmaan bin 'Awf replied: "We will say as Allaah has ordered us." He (saws) replied: "Or other than that. You will compete against one another, then you will envy one another, then you will plot against one another, and then you will hate one another. Following this you will go to the impoverished Muhaajireen and cause them to oppose one another." [Saheeh Muslim: 2962]

For this reason we see that when Persia was conquered, 'Umar bin Al-Khattaab (raa) began to weep and said: "No people were given this except that they began to fight one another."

[Turin Turambar]

To Hana_Aku,

I can assure you that it wasn't my intention to offend. But it is true that I don't think that Muhammad spoke the truth. You on the other hand say that Paul was the one who did the trickery and fooled us. Paul is a revered saint in my Church, so I could claim that you are now offending me. Why don't we call it even and keep looking for the truth which is after all the important thing?

We are left with two versions, so to speak, of the events that happened almost 2,000 years ago. I will explain them.

1) The version that Muslims believe is that Jesus was merely a prophet who had a message that was essentially identical to the message later given by Muhammad. But his followers distorted his message. In particular Paul lied completely about who Jesus was and what did he actually say. Then Muhammad came to give again to mankind the original message. I think I am right in all the essentials according to Muslim beliefs.

2) The version that Christians believe is that Jesus was much more than a prophet and that his followers never lied or betrayed his teachings. Paul in particular was truthful to his message and explained and developed it, always true to the essentials. Later Muhammad came and he lied when he said that the Christian Scriptures were corrupt and that he was bringing the original message as it stood before the corruption.

We are stuck there.

Muslims believe that Paul lied, and by saying so they offend Christians, who revere Paul. Christians believe that Muhammad lied, and by saying so they offend Muslims, who revere Muhammad. The problem is that Paul and Muhammad contradict each other completely so one of the two WAS lying.

As I said, we are stuck.

But wait a minute. I have an idea. Lets check how Paul and Muhammad lived. We will use the information given by their followers, to avoid any negative bias. According to their followers both were kind and generous, honest and humble, so we will not find a solution there. But there are differences.

According to Christians Paul lived the hazardous life of an itinerant preacher. After his conversion he was completely chaste and he lived in poverty. He was arrested several times by the Roman authorities and in fact spent many years in different prisons. He was harassed by the Pagan Romans, who still believed in their own gods. He was beaten several times by angry mobs and he finally was killed (martyred) in Rome.

According to Muslims Muhammad after Medina was a ruler who commanded armies. He led those armies in battle and asked for 20% of the booty for himself. He had 15 wives and perhaps 30 concubines, although the number is not certain. His will was law for the Arabs. He ordered those who opposed him to be killed. At the time of his death he was the absolute ruler of the peninsula and he had thousands of men ready to die for him.

As I said earlier, we know that one of the two was lying but we don’t know who. You know men as well as I do. Do men lie in order to get the life that Paul got? Do men lie in order to get the life that Muhammad got? We do not know who was lying but we can make a guess perhaps? Why would Paul lie? Why would Muhammad lie?

I will rest my case without saying anything else.

[anis_z24]

To Hana_Aku,

I can assure you that it wasn't my intention to offend. But it is true that I don't think that Muhammad spoke the truth. You on the other hand say that Paul was the one who did the trickery and fooled us. Paul is a revered saint in my Church, so I could claim that you are now offending me. Why don't we call it even and keep looking for the truth which is after all the important thing?

We are left with two versions, so to speak, of the events that happened almost 2,000 years ago. I will explain them.

1) The version that Muslims believe is that Jesus was merely a prophet who had a message that was essentially identical to the message later given by Muhammad. But his followers distorted his message. In particular Paul lied completely about who Jesus was and what did he actually say. Then Muhammad came to give again to mankind the original message. I think I am right in all the essentials according to Muslim beliefs.

2) The version that Christians believe is that Jesus was much more than a prophet and that his followers never lied or betrayed his teachings. Paul in particular was truthful to his message and explained and developed it, always true to the essentials. Later Muhammad came and he lied when he said that the Christian Scriptures were corrupt and that he was bringing the original message as it stood before the corruption.

We are stuck there.

Muslims believe that Paul lied, and by saying so they offend Christians, who revere Paul. Christians believe that Muhammad lied, and by saying so they offend Muslims, who revere Muhammad. The problem is that Paul and Muhammad contradict each other completely so one of the two WAS lying.

As I said, we are stuck.

But wait a minute. I have an idea. Lets check how Paul and Muhammad lived. We will use the information given by their followers, to avoid any negative bias. According to their followers both were kind and generous, honest and humble, so we will not find a solution there. But there are differences.

According to Christians Paul lived the hazardous life of an itinerant preacher. After his conversion he was completely chaste and he lived in poverty. He was arrested several times by the Roman authorities and in fact spent many years in different prisons. He was harassed by the Pagan Romans, who still believed in their own gods. He was beaten several times by angry mobs and he finally was killed (martyred) in Rome.

According to Muslims Muhammad after Medina was a ruler who commanded armies. He led those armies in battle and asked for 20% of the booty for himself. He had 15 wives and perhaps 30 concubines, although the number is not certain. His will was law for the Arabs. He ordered those who opposed him to be killed. At the time of his death he was the absolute ruler of the peninsula and he had thousands of men ready to die for him.

As I said earlier, we know that one of the two was lying but we don’t know who. You know men as well as I do. Do men lie in order to get the life that Paul got? Do men lie in order to get the life that Muhammad got? We do not know who was lying but we can make a guess perhaps? Why would Paul lie? Why would Muhammad lie?

I will rest my case without saying anything else.

Salam
Before Mohamad(PBUH) recieved any revelation, he was well known as an honest man. A man that never tells lies. And why would Mohamad(PBUH) lie. Do you know what his life was like, do you know how he treated people. Well his life was a complete struggle. You could never imagine how much torment he went through from his own people who rejected the message because they wanted to keep their status and money.

Did you ever read the Quran, or the biography of Mohamad(PBUH).
These days they talk about democracy and parties of different ideas.
Well in Madina that was the setting. The were parties, and those who opposed were not killed as you said. I am not saying this in defencive, but rather this is the truth.

And the prophet Mohamad(PBUH) was sent a mercy to the world. Not to Muslims only.
Why don't you read the Quran, you will really get a bigger picture.
Try it!..

[*Hana*]

Turin:

I will rest my case without saying anything else.

You can rest your case if you want, but I missed this post and I have a lot to say. :giggling: I will apologize ahead of time for the length of this post. :rollseyes

You on the other hand say that Paul was the one who did the trickery and fooled us. Paul is a revered saint in my Church, so I could claim that you are now offending me. Why don't we call it even and keep looking for the truth which is after all the important thing?

I apologize if I offended you. But, Paul said those things about himself, so it shouldn’t offend you.

Corinthians 9:19-21: “Although I am free from everyone, I have enslaved myself to all of them in order to win a large number. To Jews I behave as a Jew to win Jews; to those under the Law as one who is under the Law, although I am not under the Law, to gain those who are under the Law. To those who are without the Law I am as without Law, although not lawless towards God but committed to Christ’s Law, in order to win those who are without law.”

Paul abolished the Law, which was followed and preached by Jesus, pbuh, and corrupted the whole religion, giving it a new form. The main ambition behind all this was, in his own words, “to win a larger number” of followers; the followers of a new religion; the “Pauline Christianity”.

1) The version that Muslims believe is that Jesus was merely a prophet who had a message that was essentially identical to the message later given by Muhammad. But his followers distorted his message. In particular Paul lied completely about who Jesus was and what did he actually say. Then Muhammad came to give again to mankind the original message. I think I am right in all the essentials according to Muslim beliefs.

There is no such thing as “merely” a prophet. These were great, pious men, chosen by God to spread His word. Jesus, pbuh, didn’t say anything that wasn’t already said by all the prophets before Him. He preached the Oneness of God, to his particular nation as they all did. When men destroyed the original words of Jesus, pbuh, (not only Paul…although he changed the face of Christianity completely), Muhammed, pbuh, was sent to ALL mankind with the final revelation. And, He taught the same as the prophets before Him….The Oneness of God and the only one worthy of worship.

2) The version that Christians believe is that Jesus was much more than a prophet and that his followers never lied or betrayed his teachings.

Paul in particular was truthful to his message and explained and developed it, always true to the essentials.

Later Muhammad came and he lied when he said that the Christian Scriptures were corrupt and that he was bringing the original message as it stood before the corruption.

Paul knew people would not readily accept “his” Gospel so he warned the Galatians in 1:8, not to follow anything else except what he taught. (Imagine, a man not even taught by Jesus, pbuh, making such a statement.) Let’s see Paul’s gospel compared to the Gospel of Jesus, pbuh, and the revelation given to Muhammed, pbuh.

Original Sin:

Jesus: Not taught, Mark 19:13-14, Ezekiel 18:20-21
Muhammed: Not taught, Quran 6:164
Paul: Taught, Romans 5:12-14, Corinthians 15:22

Are we all unrighteous?

Jesus: NO, Mark 2:16-17, Mark 15:24
Muhammed: NO, Qur’an 33:70-71, 38:82-83
Paul: YES, Romans 3:10-23

Do our good works have any bearing before God?

Jesus: YES, Mat. 15:16, John 10:24-25
Muhammed: YES, Qur’an 24:38, 42:23
Paul: NO, Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 3:6-14

Must we follow the laws and commandments of God?

Jesus: YES, Matt 19:17, mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Psalms 112:1, Exodus 20:6
Muhammed, YES, Qur’an 6:151-153
Paul, NO, Galatians 2:16, 3:11, 3:24, Romans 2:13

Is Atonement through sacrifice necessary?

Jesus: NO, Mark 12:28-29, Matt. 9:13, Hosea 6:6
Muhammed: NO, Qur’an 3:77
Paul: YES, Ephesians 5:2, Galatians 3:13, Hebrews 9:26

(by Ali Ataie)

Hmmmmm, who was it that lied???

The problem is that Paul and Muhammad contradict each other completely so one of the two WAS lying.

Of course they contradict. Paul contradicted all the prophets. To see which one was lying….see above.

According to Christians Paul lived the hazardous life of an itinerant preacher. After his conversion he was completely chaste and he lived in poverty.

With all the lying he was doing to all the different types of believers, is it any wonder he was a ‘wanted’ man living in poverty??

He was arrested several times by the Roman authorities and in fact spent many years in different prisons.

Hmmmm, a criminal.

He was harassed by the Pagan Romans, who still believed in their own gods. He was beaten several times by angry mobs and he finally was killed (martyred) in Rome.

Probably because the people realized all the lies he was telling them and because he played them all like a fiddle.

According to Muslims Muhammad after Medina was a ruler who commanded armies.

Yes, He was a great leader, Alhamdulillah.

He led those armies in battle and asked for 20% of the booty for himself

Check your resources, He never kept the booty for His own personal use. Muhammed, pbuh, lived in poverty by choice.

He had 15 wives and perhaps 30 concubines, although the number is not certain.

The number is 13: Khadija Bint Khuwailid (the only wife for 25 years), Sawda Bint Zam`a, `A´isha Bint Abu Bakr, Hafsa Bint `Umar, Zainab Bint Khuzaima, Ummu Salama, Zainab Bint Jahsh, Juwairiyya Bint al-Harith, Safiyya Bint Huyay, Ummu Habiba, Maria, the Copt, Maimuna Bint al-Harith, Rayhana

As for your “perhaps 30 concubines”, give me facts, not “perhapses”, from reliable, authentic sources.

His will was law for the Arabs. He ordered those who opposed him to be killed. At the time of his death he was the absolute ruler of the peninsula and he had thousands of men ready to die for him.

His TEACHINGS were for ALL mankind, not just Arabs. He NEVER forced anyone to embrace Islam. Islam was not spread by the sword. There is NO compulsion in religion. If that were true, why are so many Coptic Christians living in Egypt today when Egypt, for the vast majority of Islamic history, was ruled by Muslims? They would have been wiped out by now. Which Muslim army invaded Indonesia….the country with the largest percentage of Muslim population.

Yes, as I said, Prophet Muhammed, pbuh, was a GREAT leader, so much so, that Times named Him the most influential man in History. :) Yes, He was loved and respected by many over the entire peninsula and yes, they were willing to protect the Prophet and Muslim leader. He endured much through His years and always remained strong in His love and worship of Allah, swt. Regardless of hardship, He endured, He thanked God for ALL things, both good and bad, He was compassionate, pious, kind, caring, giving, etc., towards ALL people. Alhamdulillah. He spent His life as a servant to Allah, swt, and never faltered or questioned the will of Allah, swt. He was the BEST of all Muslims and a man whose guidance we can follow and strive to be like Him. (PBUH)

As I said earlier, we know that one of the two was lying but we don’t know who. You know men as well as I do. Do men lie in order to get the life that Paul got? Do men lie in order to get the life that Muhammad got? We do not know who was lying but we can make a guess perhaps? Why would Paul lie? Why would Muhammad lie?

I think you can answer that for yourself now. :)

Hana

[anis_z24]

I appreciate your way of respect to others view hopefully it will increase among us all that will be heavenly. on one account I have to correct you. we jews don't believe in moses, our faith is towards G-d alone. moses is personage like others were, but he is no Deity to us. we don't pray to him.

ygalg

Salam
Thats quiet obvious. She rather meant to say that you believe he came before. Not believe in him as a god.

[Turin Turambar]

To anis_z24

But I have read the Quran! I would never criticize it without reading it. Well, in reality I have never read it cover to cover, but I have read the most interesting pieces and probably all in all over 50% of the whole. I haven’t read more because for a non-Muslim it is really a very tiresome reading. I promise you I don’t say this in a spirit of disparaging it. If you take a non-Muslim, even an intellectually curious one, and you give it to him he will probably tire fairly soon especially because of the lack of a chronological or thematic plan. But I am digressing.

Regarding the fact that nobody was killed, I will mention the following: Kab ibn al-Ashraf, the Jews of Khaybar, the Banu Qurayza. See, I have read on the subject...;)

So, you see, there were people killed back then for thinking differently and there are people killed right know for thinking differently. For instance, at this very moment, Sunnis and Shias are killing each other for their differences in Iraq.

That is my problem. I see a cause and an effect. Of course I see much that was good in your prophet, but I also see things that were not so good. And those things are also having effects even now. That is why I recommend my Muslim brothers (because we are all brothers under the same God) to review the spiritual choices they have made.

[*Hana*]

[QUOTE=Turin Turambar;193486]To anis_z24

But I have read the Quran! I would never criticize it without reading it. Well, in reality I have never read it cover to cover, but I have read the most interesting pieces and probably all in all over 50% of the whole.

So, I guess what you mean is that you never read the Qur'an. You think you can read 50% and understand and have full knowledge about Islam? :? Kind of explains your responses though.

I haven’t read more because for a non-Muslim it is really a very tiresome reading. I promise you I don’t say this in a spirit of disparaging it. If you take a non-Muslim, even an intellectually curious one, and you give it to him he will probably tire fairly soon especially because of the lack of a chronological or thematic plan. But I am digressing.

Not true. Even non-muslim, literary scholars marvel at the beauty of the writing and style of the Qur'an. As a non-muslim, and one who tried desperately to defend my faith as a Christian, I found the Qur'an very beautiful and I can only imagine how much more amazing it is in the original language of Arabic. Those that read something with a closed mind with no interest in learning may share your experience.

So, you see, there were people killed back then for thinking differently and there are people killed right know for thinking differently.

If you had a basic understanding of Islam then you would know that Islam forbids the killing of innocents and Muhammed, pbuh, and His army never killed anyone because they didn't embrace Islam. However, when the Muslims were attacked and during battle, many were given the opportunity to embrace Islam before they were killed. They were not killed for being a non-muslim, they were killed because they attacked and Muslims have a right, like anyone else, to protect themselves from aggressors. The difference is, they showed mercy and self control by offering Islam to their enemies, as Islam teaches. The same cannot be said about the crusaders who slaughtered everything in their path. Did the bible give them that right or were they acting on their own outside the teachings of Jesus, pbuh.?

For instance, at this very moment, Sunnis and Shias are killing each other for their differences in Iraq.

And, this is completely outside the teachings of Islam. A Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim....we are not to divide into sects, and we are not to kill a muslim brother or sister, unless it is a punishment set out under the Law of Shariah. So, it is not for me to judge. Judgement is for Allah, swt, alone.

That is my problem. I see a cause and an effect. Of course I see much that was good in your prophet, but I also see things that were not so good. And those things are also having effects even now.

You try to blame the faults of man today on our Prophet, pbuh, because you believe He taught this behaviour? Show us, through authentic sources, where He taught the killing of innocents, where He told us to divide into sects and fight each other, where He didn't provide protection for non-muslims living in their community so they could pray as they wanted, where He endorsed the killing of women, children, animals, etc.

That is why I recommend my Muslim brothers (because we are all brothers under the same God) to review the spiritual choices they have made.

Some of us were fortunate to be born into Muslim families, while others were able to review the choice made for us by our parents with the desire to learn the truth. Because of that opportunity, Alhamdulillah, we embraced Islam. So, we would love to offer you the same recommendation. Review your choice with an open mind, use logic and be willing to learn, THEN decide. If nothing else, you will at least have a better understanding of the true teachings of Islam, inshallah.

Peace,
Hana

[Turin Turambar]

You say : "where He taught the killing of innocents, where He told us to divide into sects and fight each other, where He didn't provide protection for non-muslims living in their community so they could pray as they wanted"

I don't know really where to find those teachings, but they must be easy to find, because so many thousands of Muslims seem to have no problem finding them. How can I can argue with all those Muslims such as bin Laden or al-Zarqawi who have devoted so much time to study the Quran that they actually have decided to base their lives on it? I am sure they have read more than 50% of it...;)

By the way, I think you never answered my question about why did Paul lie? Did he get anything from it? If he got something it must be something that neither his admirers nor his detractors have found yet....

[abdul Majid]

Yea He Got Something, He Got The Trip To Hell , For Making The People Worship Jesus(pbh), In Other Words Making Partners In Worship With God.....which By The Way Is The only Sin Not To Be Forgiven !!

[*Hana*]

[QUOTE=Turin Turambar;194051]You say : "where He taught the killing of innocents, where He told us to divide into sects and fight each other, where He didn't provide protection for non-muslims living in their community so they could pray as they wanted"

I don't know really where to find those teachings, but they must be easy to find, because so many thousands of Muslims seem to have no problem finding them. How can I can argue with all those Muslims such as bin Laden or al-Zarqawi who have devoted so much time to study the Quran that they actually have decided to base their lives on it? I am sure they have read more than 50% of it...;)

If it's so easy to find them....find them and post them. I would do it for you...but they don't exist. How someone else chooses to twist words is not my problem. That happens in every faith in every country, it doesn't mean they are correct. Does David Koresh, the KKK, or Jim Jones sound familiar to you? Or are you going to tell me they were absolutely following the Biblical text? Also, are referring to Iraqi Muslims choosing to defend themselves from the illegal occupation in their country? You see, when an American or British soldier kills an Iraqi it's because they were terrorists or "casualties of war", when a Muslim tries defending his country, he's a terrorist. In Islam, we are permitted to defend ourselves from aggressors. The kidnapping and beheadings?? Simple....totally outside the teachings of Islam. The bombing of civilian buses? Not taught in Islam. Protecting ourselves, our land, our women, children, elderly, etc? NO QUESTION about that....ABSOLUTELY PERMITTED!!

As I've said many times, the religion of Islam is perfect, the followers are not. Follow the religion, not the followers. :)

I should also add, that "thousands" (as you suggest) out of 2.1 BILLION, hardly represents all of Islam.

By the way, I think you never answered my question about why did Paul lie? Did he get anything from it? If he got something it must be something that neither his admirers nor his detractors have found yet....

By the way, I think I did, you better go back a page and read my response. ;)

Hana

[Turin Turambar]

abdul Majid,

Perhaps you didn't read the previous post that originated my question. I am not talking about what did Paul get in the eternal sense, because on that we surely disagree. I am talking about what did he get on THIS world that induced him to lie. Men lie for power, riches, women. Paul had none of those, any idea why he would lie?

[Turin Turambar]

Hana_Aku,

No really, you didn't answer. I just checked again. Was Paul trying to get riches through his lies? Was he trying to seduce women? Did he want to become king somewhere? On that point you say nothing, and it is interesting because it is kind of hard for me to believe that after meeting somebody like Jesus he would spend his whole life trying to distort his teachings. I see no reason for him to do that. Do you see one?

[*Hana*]

abdul Majid,

Perhaps you didn't read the previous post that originated my question. I am not talking about what did Paul get in the eternal sense, because on that we surely disagree. I am talking about what did he get on THIS world that induced him to lie. Men lie for power, riches, women. Paul had none of those, any idea why he would lie?

Yes, go back a page...the answer is there.

Hana

[Turin Turambar]

Why don't you paste THAT PART here where I can see clearly why did Paul decide to spend his whole life distorting the teachings of Jesus? It is certainly not what I would do if I were to met somebody like him. What did he get from it?

[*Hana*]

Hana_Aku,

No really, you didn't answer. I just checked again. Was Paul trying to get riches through his lies? Was he trying to seduce women? Did he want to become king somewhere? On that point you say nothing, and it is interesting because it is kind of hard for me to believe that after meeting somebody like Jesus he would spend his whole life trying to distort his teachings. I see no reason for him to do that. Do you see one?

You're right....he didn't have time to obtain those things because he was "busted" before he had the chance.

Meeting Jesus???? He was NEVER, EVER, EVER taught by Jesus, pbuh. He did spend a good part of his life trying to murder Jesus, however, but even then I don't think he got close enough to even hear Him speak.

Are you blind?? I showed you absolute clear, crystal clear contradictions between Jesus and Paul, showed you where Paul admitted he was dishonest and you still accept his writings over the teachings of Jesus. Dude....Paul wasn't even taught by the disciples of Jesus!!! He wanted a new following, as I told you in the previous post. The disciples of Jesus, pbuh, never trusted Paul....it was only through the intervention of Barnabas they relented.

Read what happened at the council of Nicea in 325....THAT is how present day Christianity came to be. I guarantee you, if anything like that even remotely happened after the life of Prophet Muhammed, pbuh, you would be here telling us Islam was man-made. No way would you accept the Nicean councils decisions if they were discussing Islam!

Yet, you base your whole salvation totally on the teachings and writings of Paul, and decisions made in Nicea while completely dismissing the words of Jesus, pbuh. I don't have to explain further WHY Paul did it. Maybe he was crazy?? Maybe he was jealous of Jesus, pbuh, I have no clue. I don't know his heart... only he and God know that....but I can show you clearly he DID do it. And I have shown you clearly....but you will choose to dismiss that as you dismiss the teachings of Jesus, pbuh. It's your salavation, not mine, but I really hope Allah, swt, chooses to guide you to the truth.

Peace,
Hana

[Turin Turambar]

You say:

"I don't have to explain further WHY Paul did it. Maybe he was crazy?? Maybe he was jealous of Jesus, pbuh, I have no clue"

You are right. You have no clue.

So we are left with this strange character who spend his whole life distorting the teachings of Jesus for no reason at all. He got beaten, imprisoned and finally martyred for no reason at all. He could have lived quietly in his own house his whole life but he decided to go through all kind of sufferings to spread a lie for no reason at all.

On the other hand, if somebody is accused of lying in order to get riches, power and women, we might be on to something....

Remember that one of the two was lying.

[cool_jannah]

The Islamic view of Jesus lies between two extremes. The Jews, who rejected Jesus as a Prophet of God, called him an impostor. The Christians on the other hand, consider him to be the son of God and worship him as such. Islam considers Jesus as one of the great Prophets of God and respects him as much as Abraham, Moses and Muhammad. This is in conformity with the Islamic point of view of the oneness of God, the oneness of Divine guidance, and the complimentary role of the subsequent messages of God’s messengers. The essence of Islam, which is the willing submission to the will of God, was revealed to Adam who passed it on to his children. All following revelations to Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and finally Muhammad were in conformity with that message in addition to some elaboration to define the relation between Man and God, man and man, man and his environment, and to live according to God’s instructions. Thus, any contradiction among revealed religions is viewed by Islam as a man-made element introduced into these religions. The position of Jesus in the three major religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam, should not be an exception.
Although the Qur’an does not present a detailed life-account of Jesus, it highlights the important aspects of his birth, his mission, his ascension to heaven and passes judgements on the Christian beliefs concerning him.

[*Hana*]

[QUOTE=Turin Turambar;194082]You say:

"I don't have to explain further WHY Paul did it. Maybe he was crazy?? Maybe he was jealous of Jesus, pbuh, I have no clue"

You are right. You have no clue.

So we are left with this strange character who spend his whole life distorting the teachings of Jesus for no reason at all. He got beaten, imprisoned and finally martyred for no reason at all. He could have lived quietly in his own house his whole life but he decided to go through all kind of sufferings to spread a lie for no reason at all.

On the other hand, if somebody is accused of lying in order to get riches, power and women, we might be on to something....

Who said it was for no reason???? Obviously he had his own reasons. Why does a man rape a woman, why do people harm children, why do any of us do anything?? You don't know what his reasons were any more than I do...what we DO know...as a FACT and as was proven....is that he LIED. Plain and simple.

Yeah, he got beaten....that can happen to liars and cheats. You use the word martyred, I would say murdered. Living quietly wouldn't have given him followers of his distorted religion though, would it?? Quite the opposite, whatever his reasons, he was successful in spreading HIS word.....you and millions of others follow his false doctrine.

Remember that one of the two was lying.

Do you read anything anyone posts or do just type to read your own words?? You are trying to say Muhammed, pbuh, lied to gain riches, power and women. You have been told MORE than once, with proofs that was not the case. But, you are obsessed with defending a proven liar. Why is that?? Does the truth hurt that much? Look for yourself...it's there and it's in your own bible.

Hana

[Turin Turambar]

I am certainly looking for the truth but I am generally cautious with books and that includes both the Bible and the Quran. They can be interpreted in so many ways.

That is why I use my reason and my reason tells me that there is always an explanation for the conduct of people. If you are doing something you are doing it for a reason. You want to get something, good or bad.

Usually the reason for the conduct of an historical character is easy to determine. What motivated Napoleon? Ambition. What motivated Rockefeller? Greed. What motivated Mother Teresa? Mercy

Is Paul the only great person in history who acted without a motivation? Are there other characters in history whose motivation is perhaps a subject of controversy?

It is time for both of us to stop arguing and start thinking.

[*Hana*]

Is Paul the only great person in history who acted without a motivation? Are there other characters in history whose motivation is perhaps a subject of controversy?

No one said he didn't have motivation. He tells you he did what he did to get more followers to "his" gospel. Just because he wasn't successful in his lifetime doesn't mean he wasn't motivated to try.

All I can suggest to you is that you don't try to figure out the motives of other people....you can never know that. Read books with logic, search for the truth. If it doesn't make sense, dig deeper, ask questions, etc. Follow a religion based on it's teachings, not on its followers. Even the disciples of Jesus, pbuh, were not perfect and neither were the companions of Muhammed, pbuh.

I spent over 3 years learning about Islam before I said the Shahadah. Believe me, this was not something I took lightly. And I asked question upon question upon question. I researched for hours every day and read more books than the local library stocks! (That's an exaggeration) :giggling:

I finally decided to stop trying to defend my faith and to learn the truth. Quite frankly, there were always things I questioned about Christianity that never made sense to me. I tried to understand and I asked priests, nuns, elders, knowledgeable christians....to this day I have never received a logical explanation. More often than not, I got in trouble for asking and was told "Just have faith". Well, I'm sorry, but that's not enough. When my salvation was dependant on this....I needed something clear. The fact is....it's not clear because Jesus, pbuh, and the prophets before Him, never taught what Paul did. God, Himself said, "I am not the author of confusion." And yet, no one can logically explain the tri-union. Actually, I should also add, that I continue to learn, both biblical and Qur'anic text. Learning doesn't stop. :)

I sincerely hope you do continue your search, but I do hope you do so with an open mind. You have to enter into your search as if you don't know anything and read things exactly as they are written. Don't twist them to make them fit to what you believe to be true. It's difficult, but gets easier over time.

I wish the best for you and will pray Allah, swt, guides you.

Oh, I also apologize if I sounded argumentive, it wasn't my intent. The written word can be taken in different tones than the reality.

Peace
Hana

[miseshayek]

Why don't you paste THAT PART here where I can see clearly why did Paul decide to spend his whole life distorting the teachings of Jesus? It is certainly not what I would do if I were to met somebody like him. What did he get from it?

So, by this logic if we don't see someone getting sex or money for doing something we should assume he is a good guy out to do good? How about Bin Laden? He was very rich to start with. Presumably, given his status, he was not sex starved or at least had opportunities... So why is he spending his life in a crusade against the infidels when, by doing so, he is only making his own life more difficult and, indeed, is now in a position of having "everyone" hunt him down. Maybe this guy is a saint by the "logic" you've been employing, you think?

And what WAS Paul doing? Well, wasn't he trying to wrest control of a movement that was already of some size from its previous leaders? Is power or influence over other people, and having them adopt your ideas over those of others, to be discounted as a personal motive that might be followed by someone who isn't a saint? As I recall, Jim Jones found such power and influence to be very motivating, even if he himself ended up drinking kool aid along with everyone else.... Indeed, what are you doing spending time trying to convert Muslims to Christianity?

You keep repeating that either Paul or Muhammad were "lying." Where does that come from? Isn't it possible that one or both of them were mistaken or that both were lying? Why discount those alternatives? What about this "Muhammad was a bad guy" line do you think adds credance to the believability of your position?

[Turin Turambar]

miseshayek,

I can answer your points but I am surprised that you are so angry at me. You are Jewish, so you should be kind of neutral between Paul and Muhammad. After all, you believe that both were lying. Or at least that they were wrong. Is there anything I am missing in your position? Do you have any reason to prefer Muhammad over Paul?

[Turin Turambar]

Hana_Aku,

Everything is fine! You did sound argumentative, but I did too. Isn't that the whole idea in this forum? It was never my intention to offend gratuitously and I am sure you didn't have that intention either. But I will believe in Muhammad the day you believe in Paul...;)

Just as a personal favor, would you please tell me the one reason that made you prefer Islam over Christianity? Please keep it short. Sometimes Muslims throw in too many things in the same post and I feel kind of overwhelmed...;)

[*Hana*]

Peace:

Actually, no, the purpose is not to argue as it leads nowhere. Open, sincere dialogue where people can learn from each other is the way it should work.

But I will believe in Muhammad the day you believe in Paul

Ohhhh, but I DO believe in Paul. I believe he is the true founder of today's Christianity. So, when can we arrange for you to say your shahadah? ;)

would you please tell me the one reason that made you prefer Islam over Christianity? Please keep it short. Sometimes Muslims throw in too many things in the same post and I feel kind of overwhelmed

L O G I C

short enough? :p

Peace,
Hana

[Turin Turambar]

Come on, why don't you give me that one reason? Otherwise I will believe that it was for no reason at all. Perhaps you just wanted to make angry your Christian parents....

[*Hana*]

Come on, why don't you give me that one reason? Otherwise I will believe that it was for no reason at all. Perhaps you just wanted to make angry your Christian parents....

I told you my ONE reason. LOGIC! ok, maybe you didn't understand what I meant.

I mean Islam is LOGICAL, it makes sense. None of this unexplained 3 in 1 existance of God and it agrees with all the teachings of the Prophets before it. "THE LORD THY GOD IS ONE GOD"

loool, no as far as my parents go, my father died an athiest, and my mom and I were devout Christians at one time. My mom, and the rest of my family are still Christian and love me very much, as I do them. My mom, Christian or not, is someone that I am not only proud to call "mom" but she is someone that is an honour to know. I do have an aunt who I'm sure follows me around squirting me with Holy Water though. :rolleyes: not really, j/k :p

Soooo, NO, there was no other motive for me to revert. I reverted because, through logic, I believe with my whole heart and soul, Islam is the truth. Alhamdulillah!! :)

Peace
Hana

[Turin Turambar]

Hana_Aku,

Thanks! That is exactly what I wanted to hear. I am running short of time right now but I will come back to give you a new opportunity to bash me. I am getting to like it...;)

[miseshayek]

miseshayek,

I can answer your points but I am surprised that you are so angry at me. You are Jewish, so you should be kind of neutral between Paul and Muhammad. After all, you believe that both were lying. Or at least that they were wrong. Is there anything I am missing in your position? Do you have any reason to prefer Muhammad over Paul?

(1) I find it curious that you are trying to deflect criticisms of your arguments into a personal matter. I am not "angry at you," albeit I think that some of the argument forms that you and your fellow Christians have been using in this thread since the first post are illicit.

(2) Why don't you simply asking the questions about your position rather than worrying about my position or preferences?

[miseshayek]

Peace:

Ohhhh, but I DO believe in Paul. I believe he is the true founder of today's Christianity.

Aren't you forgetting about Constantine and his pet Bishops?

[anis_z24]

Salam,
May Allah guid Turin Turambar and the likes of him.
That is the way to go, have an open mind.
As for Miseshayek; what do think of having a look at Islam.. After all this forum site is called Islamicboard so you could mean while learn about Islam.
I hope you find the truth..

[*Hana*]

Aren't you forgetting about Constantine and his pet Bishops?

lool, no not at all....just that Paul started the trend the rest finished it off. :p

Hana

[anis_z24]

Salam
Ha, May Allah guid us to the true path, not the path of the people who angered him or the lost ones, Ameen.

[*Hana*]

Hana_Aku,

Thanks! That is exactly what I wanted to hear. I am running short of time right now but I will come back to give you a new opportunity to bash me. I am getting to like it...;)

Kinda takes the fun out of it if you're enjoying it. :hmm:

[*Hana*]

Salam
Ha, May Allah guid us to the true path, not the path of the people who angered him or the lost ones, Ameen.

Ameen

[Christian_dove]

There are some links in here that I guess will not work, because it is from a private network.

MODERATOR'S COMMENT: A LINK IS SUFFICIENT:
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1037.html

[*Hana*]

Why do people feel it necessary to copy and paste a novel in a discussion thread. This is not a book club meeting. The purpose is to D I S C U S S, hence the name DISCUSSION FORUM. :rant:

Hana

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,


Regarding Palestine/Israel.

Each reliogn,Islam ,Judaism and Christianity have their own propehcy on this.

With distinct differences.

Judasit beleive their return will mark the beginning of the coming of their Messiah,a world conquest.
Chrisitna believe in rapture,the anti christ will come to lead the Jews and Propeht Jesus son of Mary as will cause the anti christ to die,then any Jews who do not convert to Chrsiitianity will be murdered.
For Islam,it is the same,but when Propeht Jesus son of Mary return,all of man kind shall see the sign and enter Islam,Inshallah,.
Propeht Jesus son of MAry as will marry have children and die.
A final sign to those who thinks he is god.
Then after that will be te day after before armageddon.
But assuredly Allah in his mercy setn Propeht Jesus son of Mary as so that people would know and reflect of their mistake to worship creation and embrace Islam,and thus be able to enter heaven,Inshallah.

Allah is the MOST MERCIFUL,OFT Forgiving.


Regarding winning and losing showing the love or might of a rleiogn,then surely consider,is Isreal in denial for building wall to keep itself safe?
Why would a people powerful and loved build wall to keep others out.


i would say you should check this out.what is the birth rate of Israeli and Palestinian?

In another 50 years or more,Israel will be an Arab coutnry,and Jews will be a minority.

Check the statistics.

[Hashim_507]

[S]Is this thread still continueing ......?[/S]

[Turin Turambar]

To keep the thread alive I will say what I said before.

According to Muslims, every little thing that happens on this world is due to a direct decision by Allah. After all, the great "proof" that Muhammed offered his followers centuries ago was precisely the fact that he said he would win a battle because Allah was on his side and he actually won the battle. Everybody concluded that he was right, Allah was helping him.

What about today? It is clear that Muslims aren't winning battles any longer. Is there a point at which Muslims will have to conclude that they must be wrong since Allah is clearly not favoring them? After all Allah has to want the truth to prevail. If centuries pass and Muslims never again win a battle, isn't that proof that Islam is not what God really wants?

Israel has been able to defeat the Muslims several times. Iraq was defeated easily by the US. The Muslim countries depend economically and technologicaly on the West. Isn't all that proof that God is not helping the Muslims any more?

[abdul Majid]

lol your a funny guy =)

Allah(swt) helped his prophet yea....and you say why not now, lol becuz were not prophets...the message got across, and now its spreading!!!! you can beleive or not, you have free will !!

iraq was easily defeated??? lol how? its not like it was fair?? one army against another,!!
THEY HAVE NOOO ARMY, just some foot soldiers, who still manage to not be defeated, ... why not , becuz the US is still there fighting after years, spent trillions of dollars, and still cant defeat some guys ..lol

i never heard a victory outta iraq??? well maybe that time Bush lied, and put that banner on the ship..

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

It seem that seven historical lesson was wrong.

May i ask,how many war did the Propeht Muhammad saw win? How many he lost? How many ended in stalemate?

So war is not a sign by itself.It is how they won the war that is the sign.

How muslim to maintian the word of Allah even thru battle is the true test.
Even winnign or losing does no affect.

Can you tell me,there are now close to 2000 US soldeirs dead,is that then 2000 losses for Chrisitanity?
IS every Christian catholic who reject the Christian faith a loss?


It is a war in the individual,a jihad.

Muslim will win again if we are united in Islam.
As you have correctly,many muslim leaders are eager for weatlh and material possesion and thus harm their own brothers.Thus it is an action of unity.

Winnign or losing does not affect the muslim faith,infact it should increase it.
Unlike after Sep 11 where many chrisitan/catholics lose faith when thier bishop said god has forsaken american casue america has forsaken god.

[Turin Turambar]

abdul Majid,

The message is not spreading, the message is actually dying. Many Muslims have been forced to twist their religion to leave everything related to jihad outside, precisely because they cannot win battles any longer. In the past, when Muslims were powerful, they would never hide the commandments related to jihad, on the contrary, they were proud of them. All Muslims interpreted their religion in the same way: fight the infidels until they submit.
It is only today they Muslims have been reduced to making apologies for the violence inflicted by other Muslims.

It is too late. If the modern world had not been invented by the Christian countries, perhaps Islam would have conquered the whole Earth. But it is too late now.

[anis_z24]

Salam
the only reason the world is in such a mess is because Islam has not been followed correctly.
So when ever we come back to the ultimate rule book and the example guide line, we will see the difference Insh'Allah.

[Turin Turambar]

anis_z24,

If what you say was true, then the best countries in the world would be those that follow at least in part the Quran, such as Saudi Arabia or Iran. Is that so? Don't you think that places like Sweden or Switzerland are much better in any respect? In terms of wealth, freedom, lack of corruption and violence, etc?

Then how can you think that going back to the Quran can make the world better? The societies that have no Quran are actually doing much better!
Take look at what Ibn Warraq has to say.

[Zulkiflim]

abdul Majid,

The message is not spreading, the message is actually dying. Many Muslims have been forced to twist their religion to leave everything related to jihad outside, precisely because they cannot win battles any longer. In the past, when Muslims were powerful, they would never hide the commandments related to jihad, on the contrary, they were proud of them. All Muslims interpreted their religion in the same way: fight the infidels until they submit.
It is only today they Muslims have been reduced to making apologies for the violence inflicted by other Muslims.

It is too late. If the modern world had not been invented by the Christian countries, perhaps Islam would have conquered the whole Earth. But it is too late now.

Salaam,

Turin,the message ring out whetehr man is ther or not.Islam is for man.
Also your denial that Islam expands show your ignoracne or your desire for Islam not to expand,it is not what is.

Jihad is the smae as it always was,we do not need non muslim to explain to us what our reliogn call for.Can you tell us what commandemnet were hidden?

The Qurna remian the same for 1400 years.

The verse you say,fight the infidels until the submit,now can you tell us the verse and also tell us when and how or why the verse came about?

If you wish to take the verse wihout learnign of its rason then surely you are have aprtly learned of the menaing of the words.

The world,whether ina state of knwoledge,or wisdom or magic or what ever is thru the grace of ALLAH and no other.

So worship the CREATOR not CREATION.

[Zulkiflim]

anis_z24,

If what you say was true, then the best countries in the world would be those that follow at least in part the Quran, such as Saudi Arabia or Iran. Is that so? Don't you think that places like Sweden or Switzerland are much better in any respect? In terms of wealth, freedom, lack of corruption and violence, etc?

Then how can you think that going back to the Quran can make the world better? The societies that have no Quran are actually doing much better!
Take look at what Ibn Warraq has to say.

Salaam,

Did Propeht Muhammad saw follow only PART of the Quran or was it int he entirety?

Islam is a religon,it is a test,wealth,poor ,knowledge uneducated,incapicitated, in what ever state,test will come to test your faith.
To follow the laws of the Quran and ALlah or to follow the laws of the secuslar society.

An example would be usury.How many muslim know ussury is a sin but yet still take part? Society claim it is normal yet Islam forbids,yet how many muslim follow that law.

Alhamdulilah,with the rise of Islamic banking hopefully the muslim would surely take the step necessary to follow the Islam and not just the parts that pleases them.


It is funny how you would mention Sweden or Switzerland..LOLOL...do they have anything of any value to the world superpowers?
While muslim coutnries leaders given a boon by Allah that is OIL,do what is best in their mind contrary to Islamic teaching.

An exaple would be to give aid to murder borther in Islam or thensleves murdering brother in Islam due to desire of power wealth or a superiority complex.

Inshallah,all of us shall recevie what we are due
The most HIGH the most JUST,ALLAH shall judge each man based on their OWN deeds.

Polls or how many hates him or how many loves matter not.Only his own deed matters.

Every action,every lie,every though,every inaction..is a deed.

Finally a question,may i ask..what do you think of Brunei ?

[anis_z24]

anis_z24,

If what you say was true, then the best countries in the world would be those that follow at least in part the Quran, such as Saudi Arabia or Iran. Is that so? Don't you think that places like Sweden or Switzerland are much better in any respect? In terms of wealth, freedom, lack of corruption and violence, etc?

Then how can you think that going back to the Quran can make the world better? The societies that have no Quran are actually doing much better!
Take look at what Ibn Warraq has to say.

Salam
The Quran can only be followed by the full any other way doesnt work .
also the best time the world lived in was during the Rule that followed Islam to the letter.

[Zulkiflim]

Does that mean Allah could not keep that Rule to the present day?

Salaam,

Allah has given mankind the Quran,unchaged for 1400 years whose guardian is the Creator of all that is.

as the quran states,If Allah will it all of man kind will be muslim but he does not.A test for the world to accept guidance or to reject it.
to keep the covenant or break it.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

The Quran says in 3-126 that victory comes only from Allah.
As Allah has granted victory to the Israelis in every war with Arab armies, it can be concluded that He agrees with the Jews settling back in their homeland.

That doesn't make sense. Don't you think that it could be the victories are only a delusion as to what really lies ahead?

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Quran 3-126 says "...There is no victory except from Allah, the Powerful, the Just".

It is up to you to believe or not what the Quran says.

Every time there was a confrontation between non-Muslim armies and Muslim armies, I remember the Muslim crowds saying Allah was on their side and could only grant them victory.

So this means Allah wants the jews to win? It is but a test for the Muslims, and a delusion for the jews. We'll see what happens when Jesus comes back. We'll kick their...:X

[Christian_dove]

To anis_z24

But I have read the Quran! I would never criticize it without reading it. Well, in reality I have never read it cover to cover, but I have read the most interesting pieces and probably all in all over 50% of the whole. I haven’t read more because for a non-Muslim it is really a very tiresome reading. I promise you I don’t say this in a spirit of disparaging it. If you take a non-Muslim, even an intellectually curious one, and you give it to him he will probably tire fairly soon especially because of the lack of a chronological or thematic plan. But I am digressing.

Regarding the fact that nobody was killed, I will mention the following: Kab ibn al-Ashraf, the Jews of Khaybar, the Banu Qurayza. See, I have read on the subject...;)

So, you see, there were people killed back then for thinking differently and there are people killed right know for thinking differently. For instance, at this very moment, Sunnis and Shias are killing each other for their differences in Iraq.

That is my problem. I see a cause and an effect. Of course I see much that was good in your prophet, but I also see things that were not so good. And those things are also having effects even now. That is why I recommend my Muslim brothers (because we are all brothers under the same God) to review the spiritual choices they have made.

I agree. Many years ago I borrowed the quoran and read it, and it was a major dissapointment.. I think it was pretty chaotic compared to The Bible, the language was primitive and after the first few chapters I really started to have doubts wether I would be able to read through it at all... But I did.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I agree. Many years ago I borrowed the quoran and read it, and it was a major dissapointment.. I think it was pretty chaotic compared to The Bible, the language was primitive and after the first few chapters I really started to have doubts wether I would be able to read through it at all... But I did.

That's funny. After the first few pages of reading the bible I realised exactly how much it was changed. Mentioning things as crude as naked prophets laying drunk in their tents. Quite an offensive slander if you ask me. And what was that about Abraham wrestling with God? Was that supposed to be a joke, or was that an attempt to degrade God?
The Qur'an's langauge is anything but primitive. By the way, unless you know arabic you haven't read the Qur'an. You've read the translation of the meaning. Learn arabic and try to produce one chapter like it if it's so primitive. You obviously have a primitive understanding of what primitive is. Otherwise you'd realise the Qur'an is the height of eloquency. I mean, most of the time it's writing out some long list of 'so and so' the son of 'so and so'... for pages on end! Who is as brave to sit through that? The reason that not even the pope has memorised the bible is because christians lack the knowledge of what the bible even is. .

[Christian_dove]

That's funny. After the first few pages of reading the bible I realised exactly how much it was changed. is. .

That's very interesting. Tell me, how did you realize it had changed? You have read the original scripts somewhere?

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

That's very interesting. Tell me, how did you realize it had changed? You have read the original scripts somewhere?

Because it was the most ridiculous thing i've ever read, God is far above that man-made scripture.

[Christian_dove]

Because it was the most ridiculous thing i've ever read, God is far above that man-made scripture.

Sure it was man made. You think God himself came down from the heavens and wrote the quoran?

But that wasn't my question. You said "After the first few pages of reading the bible I realised exactly how much it was changed."

Well, exactly how much?

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Sure it was man made. You think God himself came down from the heavens and wrote the quoran?

But that wasn't my question. You said it was changed.

What you said was very silly. But anyway, everyone knows the bible was changed. There was even a documentary by christians on television about it. Have you read the gospel of barnabus?

[Ghazi]

That's very interesting. Tell me, how did you realize it had changed? You have read the original scripts somewhere?

Salaam

How about you go and read the original, then you'll see the error of your ways.

[Christian_dove]

The closest we can get is the dead sea scrools, and comparing those texts to the modern translations of the old testament shows that there are remarkable few changes.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

The closest we can get is the dead sea scrools, and comparing those texts to the modern translations of the old testament shows that there are remarkable few changes.

You'd think any change would be unacceptable.

[miseshayek]

Salam,
May Allah guid Turin Turambar and the likes of him.
That is the way to go, have an open mind.
As for Miseshayek; what do think of having a look at Islam.. After all this forum site is called Islamicboard so you could mean while learn about Islam.
I hope you find the truth..

Thank you for the kind invitation. However, I doubt seriously that I will be converting to Islam. But perhaps I should explain why - since the reasons are probably not what you expect.

I was reared as a Christian. At about age 16, after "confirmation" in the denomination I was reared in, I came to the conclusion that the theology of Christianity was radically defective and that the behavior of its advocates was generally hypocritical.

For some decades thereafter I described myself as an atheist, an agnostic or a deists, since, like most people in the U.S. I saw all relgions as mere reflections of one brand or another of Christianity. Since I definitely found Christianity and its conception of G_d to be unacceptable, it "followed" that all religion beyond a bare deism were unacceptable.

About a decade ago, I became aware, quite accidentally, that the Christian outlook on G_d and religion were not typical of all other religions. At that time I looked very extensively At Islam and Judaism. While I concluded and still conclude that Islam has many attractive features and is generally head and shoulders above most forms of Christianity, it appears to me that it also has several of the features that I find most objectionable about Christianity and that it has historically taken at least one major "wrong turn."

Hence, Judaism came out on top. There are, of course, some doctrines believed in by some Jews that I still disagree with, but the interesting thing about Judaism is that really is no orthodoxy [in the sense that term has in the West] and, indeed, little or no theology. I would be happy to explain further if you wish, but this is probably not the place for such a discussion.

[QuranStudy]

However, I doubt seriously that I will be converting to Islam. But perhaps I should explain why - since the reasons are probably not what you expect.

Al Quran (2:18) Yusuf Ali --
Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).

While I concluded and still conclude that Islam has many attractive features and is generally head and shoulders above most forms of Christianity, it appears to me that it also has several of the features that I find most objectionable about Christianity and that it has historically taken at least one major "wrong turn."

Such as??

Hence, Judaism came out on top. There are, of course, some doctrines believed in by some Jews that I still disagree with, but the interesting thing about Judaism is that really is no orthodoxy [in the sense that term has in the West] and, indeed, little or no theology. I would be happy to explain further if you wish, but this is probably not the place for such a discussion.

I too believe that Judaism is head and shoulders superior to Christianity, but I still find misleading. The authenticity of the Torah is quite questionable, the Jewish perspective on the creation of the earth is unscientific, the Torah encourages gender inequality, and there are are other grave misconceptions in the Torah.

People have every right to worship whoever they want, but that doesnt necessarilly mean they are in the straight path.

[جوري]

Sure it was man made. You think God himself came down from the heavens and wrote the quoran?

But that wasn't my question. You said "After the first few pages of reading the bible I realised exactly how much it was changed."

Well, exactly how much?

If I tell you a story ... by the time it reaches the tenth person down the chain, it has already changed dramatically ... would you agree with that much? The first bible wasn't written in Aramaic, which was the language spoken by Jesus.... tons will be lost in translation or what the author's subjective view ... it is a far cry from the original spoken word of Jesus, Still Muslims believe all the scriptures came from God, in the Quran it tells us woe to those who change God's words with their own hands knowing full well the consequence of what they are doing... I can't expect that to be evidence for you as you are not Muslim.... but that is proof enough for most of us... Also the fact that all copies of the Quran are identical and unaltered for centuries, is enough of a testament.... I will not get into the Qur'an in great depth as there are tons of threads here covering it in great details ... By the way I am curious if you have in fact read the dead sea scrolls... I had a chance to read some sections and I think its content would be surprising... WHY A HANDFUL OF RELIGIOUS SCHOLARS CONSPIRED TO SUPPRESS THE REVOLUTIONARY CONTENTS OF THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS?...... and in it there are doctrines about the coming of Islam.... please read it ... if you can learn a Semitic language it would be a great advantage.... it would fill in so much that is LOST IN TRANSLATIONAL .... peace

[Hawa]

I find it amusing how you say " I am a Christian" and in the same breath post something that says However, God still views genuine Jews as His Chosen People and Israel as His Chosen Nation. Israel is still the "apple of His eye".

is it then wrong of me to assume that you believe as a Christian you're a second class citizen in Gods eyes?

That the jews would be powerful once again has been mentioned in the Quran, Allah says;

The Israelites

4
And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants.

5
So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed.

6
Then we gave you once again your turn against them, and We aided you with wealth and children and made you more in soldiery.

7
(Saying): If ye do good, ye do good for your own souls, and if ye do evil, it is for them (in like manner). So, when the time for the second (of the judgments) came (We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you, and to enter the Temple even as they entered it the first time, and to lay waste all that they conquered with an utter wasting.

8
It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers.

[ManchesterFolk]

God still views genuine Jews as His Chosen People and Israel as His Chosen Nation. Israel is still the "apple of His eye".

is it then wrong of me to assume that you believe as a Christian your a second class citizen in Gods eyes?

Your lack of understanding of scripture is very apparent. Do you have any idea what "chosen people" means... what were they chosen for? They were chosen to follow Gods laws of the Torah. The Bible actually specifically says that all humans are equal and loved in Gods eyes. Therefore not only is your theory way off... but your lack of knowledge on the subject makes you look like a fool.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
This thread hasn't changed a bit. Seriously, you guys are all off-topic.

[Hawa]

Your lack of understanding of scripture is very apparent. Do you have any idea what "chosen people" means... what were they chosen for? They were chosen to follow Gods laws of the Torah. The Bible actually specifically says that all humans are equal and loved in Gods eyes. Therefore not only is your theory way off... but your lack of knowledge on the subject makes you look like a fool.

I love how you simply sit and wait for someone to respond before you jump in with a few harsh words and think you've proven something..are you always looking for a squabble out of boredom or is life just generally hard on you?

I have said absolutely nothing about the Bible, I asked another member (to be more specific-NOT YOU) about a certain phrase that she pasted here saying that jews were the "apple of God's eye" I know that the Bible says all humans are equal in God's eyes...thats why I stressed on that particular phrase..I was wondering if she had actually read what she pasted and if so, how she as a Christian could actually believe God would favour a certain people over others.
Now dear, before you start on me once again, I suggest you take a few chill pills and read what I wrote, think about what im saying and get on with your life.

[QuranStudy]

This thread hasn't changed a bit. Seriously, you guys are all off-topic.

Yeah, this thread is loaded with biggots.

[Fishman]

:sl:
Don't you think that the reason why the Muslim-majority countries are failing and losing to Israel and the core anglosphere countries (the West) is because Allah (swt) has willed that the end times are comming soon? One of the signs of the end is that there will be loads of Muslims, but that they will be as powerless as the foam on the sea, which is pretty much what is happening now.
Chaos like this means people want to change things, and these people cause revolutions. And the best revolutionary of all will be the Mahdi, insha'Allaah!

So in conclusion, I believe that Allah (swt) does want this to happen to the Muslims, and that it doesn't necessarily mean that Judaism and Christianity are the true ways.

I just checked Quran 3-126 in both my translations. Neither of them say that victory comes only form Allah, although I'm sure that is an Islamic belief.
:w:

[Silver Pearl]

:wasalamex

This thread needs to go under moderation and attitudes certainly needs to improve.

Whether you're Muslim or not

If those of authority decide this thread need not be open that shall be the case, if otherwise then it shall be open in due course.

:threadclo