PDA

View Full Version : The Holy Qur'an is the Irrefutable Evidence



saeedalyousuf
04-09-2005, 02:31 PM
From my past discussion with the Atheists I have come to the conclusion that the Holy Qur'an is undeniably the uncorrupted message of Allah. I am posting the following links for corroboration:

1- General Evidence:
http://messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=GN&board=17916956&tid=allahisnotafool&sid=17916956&action=m&mid=97


2- Pharaoh's Body
http://messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=GN&action=m&board=17916956&tid=allahisnotafool&sid=17916956&mid=3756


3- Prophecies:
http://messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=GN&board=17916956&tid=allahisnotafool&sid=17916956&action=m&mid=216


4- The expanding universe:
http://messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=GN&board=17916956&tid=allahisnotafool&sid=17916956&action=m&mid=2190


5- The Roman army & the Dead Sea:
http://messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=m&board=17916956&tid=allahisourcreator&sid=17916956&mid=776


6- The Periodic Law:
http://messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=GN&board=17916956&tid=allahisourcreator&sid=17916956&action=m&mid=1349


7- The Diaspora:
http://messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=GN&board=17916956&tid=whytheholocaust&sid=17916956&action=m&mid=27 "


8- Knowing Allah:
http://messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=GN&board=17916956&tid=basicneedorjustanoption&sid=17916956&action=m&mid=306

9- Challenge to Atheism:
http://messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=GN&board=17916956&tid=achallengetoatheism&sid=17916956&action=m&mid=1720

10- Guarantee of the human life:

http://messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=GN&board=17916956&tid=cantbeanatheistforlong&sid=17916956&action=m&mid=131


Saeed H H Alyousuf

Uthman
04-09-2005, 02:38 PM
:sl:

Indeed you are right. :) The Qur'an itself could not have been created by a human. :)

:w:

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-09-2005, 09:20 PM
Brother, why don't you copy and paste your messages here, so we can read them? :)

JazakAllah khair.

:w:

Uthman
04-09-2005, 09:58 PM
:sl:

He must have thought it would take up too much space. :)

:w:

saeedalyousuf
04-10-2005, 11:46 AM
:sl:

He must have thought it would take up too much space. :)

:w:



السلام عليكم إخواني الأعزاء المحترمين

Exactly, you are right brother Osman. Besides, I am almost alone facing an army of Atheists and therefore expect you brothers to join in the effort in order to demonstrate our Islamic brotherhood, understanding and cooperation.

والسلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

Saeed

Uthman
04-10-2005, 12:26 PM
:sl:

Brother you shouldn't have to do this alone. When the last hour comes it will be too late for them and it will be us who are at fault which is why it is our duty to invite towards the way of Islam, the natural path. Perhaps what will help them to come to the truth more, along with your significant proofs, is an example of an atheist themselves converting to Islam. What say ye? :)

:w:

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-10-2005, 01:58 PM
:sl: But I was really interested in reading your points brother saeed!

root
04-11-2005, 06:17 PM
From my past discussion with the Atheists I have come to the conclusion that the Holy Qur'an is undeniably the uncorrupted message of Allah. I am posting the following links for corroboration:

I had a look at your suggestion:


Don't you read anyone else's posts dude or dood or doud?

There is NO creator. There is NO creation.

Prove otherwise. I DARE you. LOL!

Only problem you have is that it's a minority view

Regards

Root

Silver Pearl
04-11-2005, 06:22 PM
Only problem you have is that it's a minority view

Regards

Root

peace,

I will probably have to agree but the majority of the world does not care about the hereafter, they have no desire to spare a minute to the creator. They create doubts and dismiss the existence of an omnipotent being or substance. Allah (swt) knows best of his form. However, there shall come a time where the true path will conquer but sadly the upraising of al-messah ad-dajjal will cause many to stray.

regards,

CE

root
04-11-2005, 06:56 PM
I will probably have to agree but the majority of the world does not care about the hereafter,

I think you will be quite surprised. Besides, by breaking free from religous oppression in the extreme we have become more aware of an Evolving planet and it's consequences both present and in the future. Mankind acting now & together for a future on the planet is probably at the afore of thier minds and not salvation of one's self.

Besides, your faith itself would better have a good non muslim than a bad muslim.

Silver Pearl
04-11-2005, 07:13 PM
I think you will be quite surprised.

peace,

I doubt that very much….



Besides, by breaking free from religous oppression in the extreme
The concept of extremism and oppression has been a terminology widely used by people who preach the rights of ‘freedom’ hypocrisy is very popular with man-kind more than we are let to believe sadly.


we have become more aware of an Evolving planet and it's consequences both present and in the future.


However, few people dwell on such issue and actually think about the consequence.


Mankind acting now & together for a future on the planet is probably at the afore of thier minds and not salvation of one's self.

selfishness no doubt has a great place in this time and the future.


Besides, your faith itself would better have a good non muslim than a bad muslim.

I fail to understand the implication of this point…what do you mean to say exactly?

regards,

CE

root
04-12-2005, 03:01 PM
I doubt that very much….

The concept of extremism and oppression has been a terminology widely used by people who preach the rights of ‘freedom’ hypocrisy is very popular with man-kind more than we are let to believe sadly.

Of course this is just an opinion of both yours and mine. With yours being a minority opinion.


Besides, your faith itself would better have a good non muslim than a bad muslim.

One of your prophets said that in reference to a non beleivers judgement. In that it is better (in the eyes of allah) to be a good non Muslim than a Bad Muslim? Maybe you will be best placed to expand on that.

Silver Pearl
04-12-2005, 07:34 PM
peace,


Of course this is just an opinion of both yours and mine. With yours being a minority opinion.

You hold this arrogant sense of attitude while you reply...i hope the majority of the world are not like you. Opinions are a personal view, now my view can not be measured to be with the minority unless you've done research yourself…if you have then do enlighten us by posting the statistics.


One of your prophets said that in reference to a non beleivers judgement. In that it is better (in the eyes of allah) to be a good non Muslim than a Bad Muslim? Maybe you will be best placed to expand on that.

Well could you state which prophet (pbuh)? Or else there is no point in dwelling in such issue if we do not have evidence for the point we want to discuss about.

regards,

CE

root
04-13-2005, 11:13 AM
You hold this arrogant sense of attitude while you reply

I am sorry if you feel this way, but if we look at the title of this thread:

The Holy Qur'an is the Irrefutable Evidence

Are you trying to say that statement is a majority opinion, and do you not find an arrogance about it.

Regards

Root

Khattab
04-13-2005, 01:44 PM
No way is that the Quran is seen by the majority as the "Irrefutable Evidence". There have been more in the past and now who have rejected it or followed a different way. This is also told to us by Allah (SWT), many times throughout the Holy Qu'ran.

"Do they not look at the earth,- how many noble things of all kinds We have produced therein? Verily, in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe. " (26:8-9)

"The Hour will certainly come: Therein is no doubt: Yet most men believe not. "(40:59)

The Ruler
04-13-2005, 06:05 PM
Only problem you have is that it's a minority view

Regards

Root
peace,

i am very curious about what athiests believe about life after death?

Can you (root) please explain.

peace
Tagrid

Silver Pearl
04-13-2005, 06:26 PM
I am sorry if you feel this way, but if we look at the title of this thread:


Peace,

You should not need to put on a front if you do not mean it sincerely dear.




The Holy Qur'an is the Irrefutable Evidence

Are you trying to say that statement is a majority opinion, and do you not find an arrogance about it.

Regards

Root

I think the extraction of the word ‘the’ in the title would make it more approachable and not give a sense of arrogance. It is how individuals phrase certain things that can be portrayed as being arrogant. In my humble opinion I would eliminate certain words from the title, however, it is not my thread.

In addition I think that for now that the Qur’an being irrefutable is hold by minority of the world population…though 80% and over of the world believe the existence of a powerful and omnipotent being it does not reflect the ideologies taught in Islam.

Now I will not dismiss this obvious fact, it is a saddening reality….on the other hand, this is nothing in comparison to how it will be….not a single being will utter ‘Allahu akbar’ (God is the greatest). Nevertheless, man-kind will be saved and this view held by the members in this forum will be the majority, Just not while ignorance is at its peak and people love the fabrication of this world more than the hereafter.

regards,

Crystal Eyes

Khattab
04-13-2005, 08:01 PM
peace,

i am very curious about what athiests believe about life after death?

Can you (root) please explain.

peace
Tagrid

Dust and bones according to most I have spoke with

Uthman
04-14-2005, 04:36 PM
:sl:

Same here.

Here, please read this. It's from an atheistic point of view. :) Hope it's allowed. Is it? :)

The only atheistic hypothesis of life after death that I know of is naturalistic reincarnation, which some atheistic religions accept.

Otherwise, all life after death hypotheses involve some form of the supernatural, and require that some supernatural entity (a god or deity or similar entity) performs the work necessary to turn a dead person somehow back into a living person. Atheism is the rejection (or the lack of acceptance) of such a hypothesis.

Materialism would suggest that the conscious, aware "Self" is established by the structures and processes of the brain. When these structures are destroyed and the processes cease, the conscious, aware "Self" ceases to exist. Similarly, a television picture requires a functioning television set in order to exist; if the TV is broken, no television picture can exist. In this sense, the conscious, aware "Self" would be akin to the television picture, not the TV set itself. When the TV is functioning, a television picture results; when the TV set ceases to function, there is no picture in that TV set.

Everything we know about biology and neurology and how the brain works points toward the likelihood that this marvelous organ contains everything needed to establish a conscious, aware "Self." In fact, the case can be made that the consciousness is necessary in an organism that survives by its mobility, that organisms which evolved to be mobile necessarily evolved the ability to be consciously aware -- however dim that awareness may be (http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/cliff013.htm) in the simpler organisms such as worms.

Plants are not mobile and thus do not need to perceive, make decisions, attack prey, run and hide from predators, or find and attract (or subdue) mates. We can expect an organism that depends upon its mobility to have a consciousness as part of its ability to detect patterns of information and thereby develop an accurate understanding and awareness of its surroundings. In the mammals, the consciousness is much more sophisticated than in other species; in the human, one part of our brain has developed the amazing capacity to become aware of itself and its destiny (death).

If we could know that a deity exists, who created us and who cares about us, we could reasonably expect His world to be fair. This world cannot be called "fair" by any stretch: Life is good, to be sure, particularly if you get a few good breaks; but life is not fair. My little brother's only chance to live ended shortly after he was born. If there is no God watching after my brother, then those few barely conscious moments were all he gets. I hate even thinking about this, but I cannot bring myself to assent to any of the arguments that have been presented to me which claim that my little brother gets more than those few, brief, barely cognizant years of life. But then, most people who could have existed never did, or never breathed that first breath of air. Life is not fair. If it were, I would be much closer to assenting to one or the other of the god claims that I've heard.

The prospect of personal annihilation is staggeringly frightening to most. Many of us would prefer almost any route other than to be given a convincing argument that death is final. In fact, many people will still opt to find ways to justify believing in the more comfortable and more comforting myth, even if shown that annihilation is extremely likely and that other possibilities are very unlikely. They can see it but they won't buy it. Of course: if a loved one is missing, people will ponder just about any scenario besides the prospect of her demise, clinging unashamedly to any hope of her survival. If diagnosed with a grave medical condition, we tend to think that something will happen and we will become one of those amazing success stories in the annals of medicine. This is so natural to the human that many will tell you that the route of "denial" is healthier if one is given such a diagnosis. But the face of the inevitable watches in pitiless consumption as we whistle in the dark valley of the shadow of death. *

Most of the life-after-death scenarios I've heard are so entirely vacant that they don't make sense at all: sense cannot be made of them. Nevertheless, people tend to say they believe these ideas, to think they believe these ideas, to think the ideas are true, even though, when asked to describe what life after death will be like, they cannot do this. They believe it's true and believe this very strongly, yet they cannot even begin to describe what this state will be like.

But if materialism is right, if the conscious, aware "Self" is established by the structures and processes within in the brain, then what "after death" will be like is what "before birth" was like: not. It will be, for us, as if we had never lived at all.

When I think about that, I can fully empathize with those who would go running to a comfortable myth -- any myth at all -- to avoid facing the full impact of what this means. I have forced myself to face what this means and I will never be the same. Dr. Jack Kevorkian, the famous death with dignity advocate and perhaps the world's foremost student of the dying process, created a painting, "Nearer My God to Thee (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/kevorkian/aboutk/art/god.html)," ** which portrays a person, green with death, falling into the black pit of death but scratching the sides of the pit in an attempt to keep from entering. He says, "This depicts how most human beings feel about dying ... despite the solace of hypocritical religiosity and its seductive promise of an after-life of heavenly bliss." With Dr. Kevorkian I wonder just how much solace religion brings. I know when I was religious, I could not bring to mind a realistic hope for the afterlife. It was relatively easy for me to think of others in Heaven or even Hell (gaud for bid!), but I could not see this for myself. I repeat: I never saw or felt that I would partake of either. I cannot tell you what I did think, as that concept never got formed. But I did not feel any "comfort" or "assurance" of salvation from beyond physical death. If the Christian religion was about helping me overcome the fear of death, it did not work for me. I am much closer to overcoming this fear by facing it through such means as studying the work of Kevorkian and others who themselves are not afraid of the prospect of annihilation.

Kevorkian concludes, "After all, how excruciating can nothingness be?" The nothingness itself? Not! But ayyyy! the prospect of not being when I happen to be right now! Thus far in my personal journey, I have accepted that there's nothing I can do to hold on to my life. Nothing will let me keep my life and I will have to die. I have accepted that much. I don't have to like it; after all, there are many things in life that I don't like. There are many things in my life that others are not required to endure but I am, and I don't like that. But still I live and function and, at times, even thrive. I have likewise, with Dr. Kevorkian, candidly asked myself how excruciating nothingness can be. Finally, with novelist Anthony Burgess, I have at least recognized that the "vestigial fear of Hell (http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9450.htm)" is, at most, a conditioned reflex from a childhood indoctrination.

Where my "vestigial fear of Hell" came from is anybody's guess: I was raised by atheists who did not talk about the Christian Hell except to tell me, when I asked, that they did not believe in it. I think the prospect of the Christian Hell is utterly foreboding, so much so that I think even a single exposure to this concept at just the right moment can damage certain youngsters for life.

As for justifying our thoughts, I will speak for all atheists in saying that we believe this way first and foremost because we think it is true. We have no reasons for believing any of the claims that there is an afterlife.

Period.

I would love to hear from any atheist who believes there is no life after death for any other reason. If I get any responses in the affirmative, I will link them from this document once it gets posted.

Christians (and a few others) accuse us of wanting to avoid the fear of the Christian Hell. If my experience with Christianity failing to relieve my fear of physical death is any indication, it just doesn't work that way: not with me, anyway. If Christians think it does work that way, this becomes, to my mind, a potentially revealing observation about Christianity itself, particularly about its usefulness in relieving the fear of physical death (or, at least, distracting the Christian from having to face this prospect head-on).

Meanwhile, what I see is people and animals having evolved and needing a consciousness to survive. I then see these animals and people die. I have absolutely no reason for believing otherwise than that their conscious, aware "Self" dies with them, the animal or human being fully equipped, complete, and ready to begin functioning once life begins. If an afterlife exists, it is the burden of the person who claims its existence to demonstrate to us that this is the case, that an afterlife exists. In lieu of evidence and strong argument, we are left with only one option: not believing that such a thing exists. This is the only option, anyway, for a person dedicated to following truth wherever she may lead.

Some people do not hold that high a priority for truth: other matters, such as living a peaceful life, being as free from worry as possible, or getting along in the community, come first. Many, if not most, are so busy getting on with the job of living that they never get around to pondering questions such as these: the first "answer" they heard as a child, that very first "Aha!" they experienced, is the same "answer" they use throughout their lives.

I cannot speak for all atheists, because some tell me they have no fear of annihilation. One woman, whose husband was an atheistic activist, quietly deconverted and later told her husband how much of a relief she felt not having to think there was an afterlife. That was not my experience. It is a relief to know that the Christian Hell is a story out of the Christian Bible, which tells me many testable and verifiable (rather, refutable) things about how situations on Earth are. So, if the Christian Bible shows itself unreliable in matters that I can go and verify, then why should I trust what it says about matters that we cannot verify? I shouldn't, and I won't.


Source (http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8611.htm)


:)


:w:

root
04-15-2005, 12:05 PM
Dust and bones according to most I have spoke with

I agree in part, though a more accurate statement would be Star-Dust & bones. Though bones are star dust too, but the atoms which form our bones are of a complex structure giving a durability to them. And this is the key to an atheistic beleif of death.

The atoms that make up my body in life cannot be destroyed by death, the only way to destroy all my atoms would be to turn them into raw energy which would create an explosion more powerfull than all the nuclear weapons in the world going "Bang" all at the same time.

My atoms having come from star dust will return to star dust, ultimately my atoms will be found in the universe billions of years from now when our solar system is dark and our galaxy the milky way collides with andromida ALL our atoms will be redistributed into the chaotic universe, from that point on My atoms could go on to be part of a star, moon, planet or even a comet in fact it can be of any matter within the visible universe. Some of my atoms could even be sucked into a "black hole" and then after passing through the singularity my atoms will be totally destroyed or recycled in some way that we know not of yet.

Of course this is not science fiction but science fact.........

I think "reincarnation" is a scientific fact in principle but again this is at an atomic level.

Khattab
04-18-2005, 02:54 PM
Its always interesting when I see the athiests view points many are science, science, science no room for anything else and many of the chrsitians I have spoke with are faith, faith, faith, it doesnt matter what science or anything else says.

As Albert Einstein said "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

As muslims we take the central view, faith and facts. Religion and Science together is what all people should work with. Blind faith is wrong the same way following only science is.

As the Quran says of the one who denies the hereafter:

"What! when we die, and become dust and bones, shall we (then) be raised up (again)? And also our fathers of old? Say thou: "Yea, and ye shall then be humiliated (on account of your evil). Then it will be a single (compelling) cry; and behold, they will begin to see! They will say, "Ah! Woe to us! This is the Day of Judgment!" (A voice will say,) "This is the Day of Sorting Out, whose truth ye (once) denied!"

OR

"Does he (Muhammed) promise that when ye die and become dust and bones, ye shall be brought forth (again)? Far, very far is that which ye are promised!"

root
04-18-2005, 03:14 PM
"What! when we die, and become dust and bones, shall we (then) be raised up (again)? And also our fathers of old? Say thou: "Yea, and ye shall then be humiliated (on account of your evil). Then it will be a single (compelling) cry; and behold, they will begin to see! They will say, "Ah! Woe to us! This is the Day of Judgment!" (A voice will say,) "This is the Day of Sorting Out, whose truth ye (once) denied!"

That could easily be relevent to an atheistic view. faith & science are two different entities but niether prove\disprove the theory of your god.

Take for example the meteorite heading for a very near miss with our earth in 2029 which could easily impact on us either then or a few years after. Shall the world drop to it's knees an beg forgiveness and know "faith" will save them or that this has been sent from Allah and was known to us "the end is nigh". (and not long ago that is exactly what most of us would have done) or do we use Science to gently move it onto a new course.


faith and facts.

You can have both if you wish, that is your freedom. However, when taking only one. You can have only one of them for the other does not work by itself.

Khattab
04-18-2005, 04:25 PM
Hi Root,

For me "faith", and research into the Holy Quran it does prove the existence of God. I have studied the Qu'ran and for me it is the unaltered word of God, the final revelation. When you look at the Torah and the coming of Jesus (PBUH) prophecised or the Torah and Bible for the coming of Muhammed (PBUH), all teaching the same message, "Only One God worthy of worship", it confirms the existence of God. And who knows science itself may well oneday prove the existence of the All Mighty Creator.

The example you used of a meteorite, is the same as if you are standing on the road and you see a car coming towards you, we would all move out the way and do our best to avoid it hitting us. Same with the meteorite we do all we can to prevent it, there is no clash between faith and science. Allah (SWT) has given us the intellect so we do all we can to prevent it from hitting us.

Peace

root
04-18-2005, 08:56 PM
For me "faith", and research into the Holy Quran it does prove the existence of God.

I am happy for you and you have a right to believe in anything that you wish, is does not detract from the fact that one cannot say the Holy Quran is irrefutable evidence of the existence of God. As an individual I suppose you can claim this but it's just not factually correct to state such.........

Silver Pearl
04-19-2005, 05:51 AM
I am happy for you and you have a right to believe in anything that you wish, is does not detract from the fact that one cannot say the Holy Quran is irrefutable evidence of the existence of God. As an individual I suppose you can claim this but it's just not factually correct to state such.........

peace,

How do you expect for people to bring forth factual evidence when one has clearly made up their mind on their views. Some people say that the Qur'an holds no scientific evidence nor miracles but when you bring forth some they utter 'well that is obvious.' Those who are in denial will NEVER be satisfied with what they are given. They have no desire to seek the truth but decieve themselves by saying they do.

You have your religion and i have mine...we are all God's caretion. We hold different ideologies....firstly do you believe in the existence of God? if one doesn't, no matter what you bring they'll dismiss it as being barbaric or irrellevant.

Have a pleasant day

root
04-19-2005, 08:40 AM
How do you expect for people to bring forth factual evidence when one has clearly made up their mind on their views.

This is not a true statement. My mind is less made up than yours, your not recognising the act of "faith" in that ANY religion and not just Islam requires "faith".


Some people say that the Qur'an holds no scientific evidence nor miracles but when you bring forth some they utter 'well that is obvious.' Those who are in denial will NEVER be satisfied with what they are given. They have no desire to seek the truth but decieve themselves by saying they do.

The Quran is not just a religous entity as it is cultural too. I live in an Educated society that has it's own culture that culture could use the same words about itself (and it does). This makes niether you nor me any more right or wrong on a point of religion & culture.


You have your religion and i have mine

Sorry, I don't have a religion.



...we are all God's caretion.

I disagree


We hold different ideologies....

I agree


firstly do you believe in the existence of God?

I don't rule out the existence of a God. I merely reject differing religous accounts of what they beleive god to be. Do I beleive "God" made us in his image. Certainly not.


if one doesn't, no matter what you bring they'll dismiss it as being barbaric or irrellevant.

I don't quite follow that.

Don't be offended by my words & don't be surprised that the majority of the world disagree with what you say. Use your faith, and not your anger.......

Khattab
04-19-2005, 02:39 PM
Its not Islam that claims God made us in his "image". How can the created even compare to the creator , not a chance.

kadafi
04-19-2005, 03:44 PM
peace,

How do you expect for people to bring forth factual evidence when one has clearly made up their mind on their views. Some people say that the Qur'an holds no scientific evidence nor miracles but when you bring forth some they utter 'well that is obvious.' Those who are in denial will NEVER be satisfied with what they are given. They have no desire to seek the truth but decieve themselves by saying they do.
:sl:

Exactly, the characteristics is that you described is apparant by those who cannot concede the righteous Truth.

Al-Jathiya, verse 23:
Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? God has, knowing [him as such], left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart [and understanding], and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after God [has withdrawn guidance]? Will ye not then receive admonition?

root
04-19-2005, 05:41 PM
Its not Islam that claims God made us in his "image". How can the created even compare to the creator , not a chance.

Thanks for correcting me. I did not know that, as I thought the only difference between Muslims & Christians was that Muslims believe it was not actually jesus who was crucified & that jesus was not the son of god but a prophet. And now I see that their is another issue or maybe I got it all wrong.

Khattab
04-19-2005, 11:11 PM
There are many similiar things between Islam and Christianity, like the prophets etc but there are also diffrences like the bible says the earth was created in 6 days where as with muslims it was created in 6 yawm (periods of time), or that the universe is only 6000 years old according to christians (we know now it is much much older than this), this is not the view of the muslims.

We believe 100% in the orginal bible as muslims, ie the one revealed to Jesus (PBUH), the one we have today has been altered and changed. The Quran confirms some story's of the Bible, this we can agree with it. But many things have changed in it and today we find many statements in it are incompatible with science, this however is not the case with the Qu'ran.

Root 2 questions, would you say you are an agnostic rather than an athiest? And have you ever read the Qu'ran before?

aamirsaab
04-21-2005, 08:45 AM
Thanks for correcting me. I did not know that, as I thought the only difference between Muslims & Christians was that Muslims believe it was not actually jesus who was crucified & that jesus was not the son of god but a prophet. And now I see that their is another issue or maybe I got it all wrong.

we all have to learn somewhere :P. regards to the differences between islam and christianity - there is loads of differences :P
one of the older brothers will probably know all of them and it is probably best that you hear it from them.
your 'mistake' is just a common one. However, you actually want to learn about it and so i have respect for you. In any case, i would ask your query to either khaludn or kadafi (maybe ansar) hopefully they can give you a better answer than i can.

Silver Pearl
04-23-2005, 05:52 AM
peace,


This is not a true statement.

In your opinion, what is a true statement? what may satisfy me will certainly not satisfy you so how can you assess the level of being true when we all hold different opinions and see different things to be true?




My mind is less made up than yours,

However, you fail to understand that my mind is made up, i'm just discusing this with an open-mind.




your not recognising the act of "faith" in that ANY religion and not just Islam requires "faith".

Faith is essential in every religion...As Muslims we believe in the Torah (towrat), Pslam (zabur) and Bible (njeel) because they were given to the prophets (pbut) by Allah (swt)-God. Now by stating that those who follow that scripture do not need faith or have faith we would contradicting our own religion.



The Quran is not just a religous entity as it is cultural too.

Not to that extent....culturial issues clash with people's ethnicity at times and saying that God made laws upon cultural subjects would dismiss the fact that we all have different cultures. You need to distinquish cultural stuff from Islam...many people used to get trapped in believing something was part of Islam when it was just something Arabs and jews used to follow as part of their tradition.



I live in an Educated society that has it's own culture that culture could use the same words about itself (and it does). This makes niether you nor me any more right or wrong on a point of religion & culture.

I am not stating i am right in any way...God forbid i should not elivate myself and become those cursed due to being arrogant and proud. I merely show you what Islam teaches...what the creator taught us. Every society has its own cultue of course but that tradition should no be made vital if it conflicts with Islam....people can follow it so long as they are not practising anything unlawful.




Sorry, I don't have a religion.

fair enough





I disagree

Do you then think we are all creation of our environment? mutated and adapted to our society and are finally reached the stage in a process where we are humans? do you believe in the evolution theory?




I agree

we all have a common ground :)



I merely reject differing religous accounts of what they beleive god to be.

It is not about what we believe God to be...we do not speak of the apperance of the creator because a)we have not been informed b)it is something we can not comprehend. It is more of what the creator what its creation to know about him. All that has been taught by man is for his own good...God does not tell us to leave something if it is beneficial to us in the long run.



Do I beleive "God" made us in his image. Certainly not.

I agree....Islam agrees.




I don't quite follow that.

I was suggesting that if people don't believe in God then no evidence will be good enough....people will find any old excuse to dismiss it.



Don't be offended by my words & don't be surprised that the majority of the world disagree with what you say. Use your faith, and not your anger.......

:) I have argued with many non-muslims, atheists, agnostic and the one thing i do not show is anger....we are humans, no doubt we will disagree and i am more than happy to discuss it. No personal attacks or insults....just a debate. I have not intention of getting my emotions attached to the thread...I hope the same goes for you.

Have a pleasant day :)

regards,

CE

(i may not reply for a long time, busy)

root
04-26-2005, 11:48 AM
In your opinion, what is a true statement? what may satisfy me will certainly not satisfy you so how can you assess the level of being true when we all hold different opinions and see different things to be true?

A fact!


However, you fail to understand that my mind is made up, i'm just discusing this with an open-mind.

hhhmm, a contradiction of term. You accuse people of having a closed mind because thier mind is made up already then turn around and openly state your mind is made up.


Faith is essential in every religion...As Muslims we believe in the Torah (towrat), Pslam (zabur) and Bible (njeel) because they were given to the prophets (pbut) by Allah (swt)-God. Now by stating that those who follow that scripture do not need faith or have faith we would contradicting our own religion.

Yes I agree with you, faith is an important part of any religion. faith is called upon in the absence of proof. Which is understandable i guess.


Not to that extent....culturial issues clash with people's ethnicity at times and saying that God made laws upon cultural subjects would dismiss the fact that we all have different cultures. You need to distinquish cultural stuff from Islam...many people used to get trapped in believing something was part of Islam when it was just something Arabs and jews used to follow as part of their tradition

When all said and done, look harder. Culture & the Quran are inexplicably linked.


I am not stating i am right in any way...God forbid i should not elivate myself and become those cursed due to being arrogant and proud. I merely show you what Islam teaches...what the creator taught us. Every society has its own cultue of course but that tradition should no be made vital if it conflicts with Islam....people can follow it so long as they are not practising anything unlawful.

I like the ending here, "as long as they are not practising anything unlawful" As long as we are talking UK laws then I accept that. As soon as you move to sharia law your statement is invalud since what I believe is plasphamy by your faith and a number of other faiths too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4466341.stm



Do you then think we are all creation of our environment? mutated and adapted to our society and are finally reached the stage in a process where we are humans? do you believe in the evolution theory?

Yes, I do beleive we evolve in relation to our environment. I don't beleive we mutate and adapt to a society and evolution has no "finally". Even today Evolution is at work. I do not believe in the theory of evolution in it's entire state of "Darwinism".


It is not about what we believe God to be...we do not speak of the apperance of the creator because a)we have not been informed b)it is something we can not comprehend. It is more of what the creator what its creation to know about him. All that has been taught by man is for his own good...God does not tell us to leave something if it is beneficial to us in the long run.

Fair enough you are entitled to an opinion?

Finally let us not forget our point here. "The holy Quran is the irrefutable evidence" of which I and the majority of your fellow human's state as utter nonsense, though you are free to beleive that.

Abdul Fattah
04-26-2005, 02:43 PM
hello root
I understand how you might find it "arrogant" if someone states that the qur'an is irrefuteble evidence. We do however have a reason to say this. Apart from being a literal masterwork, the qur'an a miracle by itself is also full of miracles.

Here are just a couple of them:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)
I take it you know that you know that the universe is constantly expanding with the speed of light. But have you ever wondered how muhammed (peace be upon him) could have know such a fact when science has only discovered this recently with advanced technolegies and equipment?

Do you not see how He created seven heavens in layers? (Qur'an, 71:15)
And here they are:
1. Troposphere
2. Stratosphere
3. Mesosphere
4. Thermosphere
5. Exosphere
6. Ionosphere
7. Magnetosphere
How could prophet muhammed (peace be upon him) have known this many years ago, when science has only discovered this recently?

We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them… (Qur'an, 21:31)
Have We not made the earth as a bed and the mountains its pegs? (Qur'an, 78:6-7)
Formerly, it was thought that mountains were merely protrusions rising above the surface of the Earth. However, scientists realised that this was not actually the case, and that those parts known as the mountain root extended down as far as 10-15 times their own height. With these features, mountains play a similar role to a nail or peg firmly holding down a tent.
How could prophet muhammed (peace be upon him) have known this many years ago, when science has only discovered this recently?


Or [the unbelievers' state] are like the darkness of a fathomless sea which is covered by waves above which are waves above which are clouds, layers of darkness, one upon the other. If he puts out his hand, he can scarcely see it. Those Allah gives no light to, they have no light. (Qur'an, 24:40)
Scientists have only recently discovered that there are sub-surface waves, which "occur on density interfaces between layers of different densities." These internal waves cover the deep waters of seas and oceans because deep water has a higher density than the water above it. Internal waves act like surface waves. They can break, just like surface waves. Internal waves cannot be discerned by the human eye, but they can be detected by studying temperature or salinity changes at a given location. Each “surface” reflects a portion of light. Making it darker and darker the deeper one goes.
How could prophet muhammed (peace be upon him) have known this many years ago, when science has only discovered this recently?

The word "land" appears 13 times in the Qur'an and the word "sea" 32 times, giving a total of 45 references.(13+32=45) If we put these numbers out in percentages:
land: (13/45) * 100% = 28.888888889%
sea: (32/45) * 100% = 71.111111111%
Extraordinarily, these figures represent the exact proportions of land and sea on the Earth today.

There are many more to find on http://www.-----------------------/scientific_index.html
In regard to the subject of this tread, what do you think about these "proofs" Root?

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-26-2005, 05:25 PM
Pardon me for jumping in on this conversation, but there are a number of points I'd like to mention.

hhhmm, a contradiction of term. You accuse people of having a closed mind because thier mind is made up already then turn around and openly state your mind is made up.
I would mention that having a mind that is made-up, does not necessitatea close-minded mentality. Being open-minded is being receptive and tolerant of various views. One can be open-minded and still believe that something is the truth with full certainty.


Yes I agree with you, faith is an important part of any religion. faith is called upon in the absence of proof. Which is understandable i guess.
Not the absence of proof, but the absence of material evidence. One can arrive at logical conclusions and have full faith is an answer that may be demonstrated.


Finally let us not forget our point here. "The holy Quran is the irrefutable evidence" of which I and the majority of your fellow human's state as utter nonsense, though you are free to beleive that.
I think the "majority of humans" have little value in this judgement, because one needs to have some understanding of the subject that they are to evaluate!

For example, I would disregard your opinion of the Qur'an as weightless, because you do not have a thorogh understanding of the Qur'an purpose, position, state, content, etc.

I will give you the following introduction to th Qur'an, which may start you off in evaluating it as the word of God:

http://www.islamicboard.com/showpost.php?p=24186&postcount=40

Perhaps you could begin your research on the Qur'an here:
http://whyislam.org/877/Modern_Science/Amazing_Quran.asp

And begin to read the Qur'an here:
http://www.islamonline.net/surah/english/quran.shtml


Only after understanding the Qur'an, will your judgement be accepted as valid.

:w:

root
04-27-2005, 12:26 PM
There are many more to find on http://www.-----------------------/scientific_index.html
In regard to the subject of this tread, what do you think about these "proofs" Root?

I think your "Proofs" are unfounded and very doubtful.


And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)
I take it you know that you know that the universe is constantly expanding with the speed of light. But have you ever wondered how muhammed (peace be upon him) could have know such a fact when science has only discovered this recently with advanced technolegies and equipment?

Do you not see how He created seven heavens in layers? (Qur'an, 71:15)
And here they are:
1. Troposphere
2. Stratosphere
3. Mesosphere
4. Thermosphere
5. Exosphere
6. Ionosphere
7. Magnetosphere
How could prophet muhammed (peace be upon him) have known this many years ago, when science has only discovered this recently?

Hmmmm, very interesting:

Your article was originally posted here: http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p1_09.php

But after being challenged it was removed. However, it can still be found here http://www.geocities.com/islamimiracles2/scientific_miracles_of_Quran.htm

The seven heavens:

1. Moon (satellite)
2. Mercury (Planet)
3. Venusm (Planet)
4. Sun (Star)
5. Mars (Planet)
6. Jupitor (Planet)
7. Saturn (planet)

At least we know that the 7 heavens was not in reference to:

1. The 7 Day week
2. The 7 Arc Angels
3. The 7 Day creation

The Islamic site www.pakistanlink.com quotes Maududi, the renowned Muslim scholar and the interpreter of the Quran who says:


“It is difficult to explain precisely what is meant by the ‘seven heavens’. In all ages man has tried, with the help of observation and speculation to conceptualize the ‘heavens’, i.e. that which lies beyond and above the earth. As we know the concepts that have thus developed have constantly changed. Hence it would be improper to tie the meaning of these words of the Qur’an to any one of these numerous concepts. What might be broadly inferred from this statement is that either Allah has divided the universe beyond earth into seven distinct spheres, or that this earth is located in that part of the universe which consists of seven different spheres." [5]

From the Ahadith (especially the Hadith of Mi’raj) we learn that the first heaven is the one that is closest to the earth. So the order begins from the earth and the highest heaven is the seventh heaven [6].

As one can see the real scholars of Islam are unable to explain the meaning of the seven heavens mentioned in the Quran and try to give esoteric significance to it. If we had to believe that the seven heavens is an allusion to the seven layers of the atmosphere then we have to assume that stars must be no more than eleven kilometers above the Earth, because as the verse 41:12 says the lower heaven is adorned with brilliant stars. The Troposphere ends at about eleven kilometers above the surface of the Earth.

Not only Muhammad, like other men of his time, believed that the sky had seven layers, he also thought that the Earth was made of seven layers too.

“Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number…” [Quran 65.12]


In this verse the number of the earths is not in question. It assumes that everyone agrees that there are seven earths. The emphasis is on the claim that Allah is the creator of these seven earths. The reason is because just like the seven heavens, the ancient people had agreed that there were also seven layers of earth. Muhammad was simply stating what seemed to be obvious to the people of his time but of course he was dead wrong according to the modern science.

So your "Evidence" all hinges on what was meant by "7 heavens", and I doubt very much that when it is all taken into context that the "7 heavens" is actually the 7 layers. Further, you must realise the differences in an "evolutionists" arguement & a "creationists" arguement. What is really ironic about your piece is that if "creationists" accepted the same level of proof as you have presented then the creationist theory would be dead in the water. The truth is that you don't, so please don't ask others to accept any of what you have said and try to put it forward as "Irrefutable evidence"


We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them…

You call this Science. Firstly, MountEvrest is one of the biggest "pegs" on this planet yet it is only 50 million years old, this mauntain was never "placed" it came about because the land we walk on does move under us which is the complete opposite of what you beleive and have quoted.

Finally:


I think the "majority of humans" have little value in this judgement, because one needs to have some understanding of the subject that they are to evaluate!

More arrogance, you reject the majority view based solely that they don't use the same source material as you.

Abdul Fattah
04-27-2005, 03:07 PM
So your "Evidence" all hinges on what was meant by "7 heavens", and I doubt very much that when it is all taken into context that the "7 heavens" is actually the 7 layers.

You might be right; those verses could be refering to anything, but you'r missing the point here Root. Maybe it refers to the seven layers, maybe it doesn't, heck it might even refer to the 7 extra dimensions string-theory found. We simply don't know. Then again to me it does not matter. The qur'an isn't about science it's a guidance trough life. And between advise and warnings one can find comparisons describing earthly matters in such a simple yet accurate way. This isn't the source of our faith, it simply confirms it.


What is really ironic about your piece is that if "creationists" accepted the same level of proof as you have presented then the creationist theory would be dead in the water. The truth is that you don't, so please don't ask others to accept any of what you have said and try to put it forward as "Irrefutable evidence"

As I said this is just a confirmation and it doesn't stand alone, but why take my word for it? You shouldn't, that's why I wrote the previous, not so you would revert on the spot, not so you would accept without thinking, but simply to show that our faith is not a blind one. That there is more to it then meats the eye. bringing me to...


Further, you must realise the differences in an "evolutionists" arguement & a "creationists" arguement.

I strongly disagree. First of all I've been atheistic for 20 years and studied science. My atheism wasn't the lack of intrest but fundated with arguments philosofical and scientific, at one point of my life however I found out there was more to it then I origianally thought. So don't tell me I don't have a clue to how the scientific way of thinking is, don't think that my mind is closed due to indoctrination. Just because 2 different ways (science and religion) seem to be contradicting one another at first vieuw doesn't neccesairly make it so. In fact "evolution" doesn't even contradict "creation"
evolution fails to explain the origin of life, but simply tells us how life "evolved" troughout the years. And it is still doubtful that birds came forth of mamels and thus accedentially mutating wings, hollow bones for weighing less, stronger chestmuscles etc... all at the same time. It is however likely that if one species of birds would have been created that many other mutations would have arised from it. As for the theory of the "evolution" of life out of lifeless matter, it is very far fetched and incomplete.

More on the origen of life: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/2948/orgel.html



You call this Science. Firstly, MountEvrest is one of the biggest "pegs" on this planet yet it is only 50 million years old, this mauntain was never "placed" it came about because the land we walk on does move under us which is the complete opposite of what you beleive and have quoted.

You shouldn't take everything this literaly. When it says "placed" do you actualy visualise a giant hand coming from the clouds holding a mountain and pinning it down in the earth? Just kidding, you 've already proven yourself more intelligent then that ;)
Anyway, what Ii'm trying to say is: although science may accuratly explain how nature works, it doesn't explain why. Why do the 4 forces of this univerce do what they do? Why do messenger particles evoke what they do? Why do electrons repel one another? We believe it happens because it's gods will, so yes he placed those mountains. Of course the earth does move but imagen how much it would move if the continental drifts weren't moderated by the formation of mountains.

Also I noticed your reference to harunyahya. I'm quite troubled with his movies. Although I admire his intentions I have to admit that he frequently jumps to conclusions and sometimes the wrong one's. It's sad because when people notice some of the wrong assumptions he makes they associate it with islam.

Anyway, I noticed you didn't comment on the expansion of the univers, the multiple waves of the sea, the propotion of the water and earth...
So is it safe to assume that you dismiss them as being coincedential, a lucky guess from muhammed's (peace be upon him) part?

I also noticed your previous post had a kind of irretaded underline in it. I hope I didn't offend you personally, and I hope I didn't come of to arrogant. I'm just trying to share my point of vieuw.

Peace

HumbleServant
04-27-2005, 03:33 PM
Do you believe in Miracles?
evidence for the Quran definitely being Word of God

1. (quran chapter 6:verse 133) The evolution of species
2. (7:40) black hole singularity
3. (7:54) the sequence of day and night
4. (10:5) natural and reflected light
5. (10:5) the speed of light
6. 10:24) time zones - earth rotation
7. 10:34) genetic code reproduction
8. (10:61) subatomic particles
9. (3:2) gravitational forces
10. (16:68-69)cure of honey
11. (21:33) the spherical earth
12. (21:33) orbital movement of celestial bodies
13. (21:33) the sun-rotation and revolution
14. (22:73) the fly
15. (23:12-14) human embryonic development
16. (23:112-113) relativity in the quran
17. (24:35) nuclear reactions in stars
18. (24:40) deep sea currents
19. (24:40) darkness in a deep sea
20. (24:43) the quran on clouds
21. (24:43) hail and lightening
22. (25:53) barriers between the sea and rivers
23. (25:54) the creation from water
24. (27:88) earths movement in space
25. (29:41) the thread of a spider
26. (30:30) no change in genetic code
27. (30:48) the water cycle
28. (31:29) the rounded shape of the earth
29. (32:7) clay: the beginning of humankind
30. (34:3) atmoic weight
31. (34:9) stones from the sky
32. (36:38) the apex of our solar system
33. (36:39) the phases of the moon
34. (36:39) the moons orbit
35. (36:40) the fixed way of earth's rotation
36. (39:5) the spinning of the earth
37. (39:6) layes of the womb
38. (39:68) black holes
39. (41:10) how old is the earth?
40. (41:11) the gaseous universe
41. (41:12) the cosmic constants
42. (41:53) horizons
43. (42:29) life on other planets
44. (46:15) the full maturity of man
45. (47:15) thermal receptors in bowels
46. (51:47) the expansion of the universe
47. (51:47) the evolution of universe
48. (53:45,46) embyonic sex determination
49. (53:45,47) pairs of everything
50. (55:33) the conquest of space
51. (55:37) the new reddening of the cosmos
52. (56:75,76) the position of stars
53. (57:25) formaion of iron (heavy elements)
54. (70:4) the age of the universe
55. (70:4) the speed of time
56. (71:14) creation in stages
57. (75:4) fingerprints
58. (76:2) fertilization liquid
59. (77:7,8) the death of stars
60. (78:6,7) stabilizing mountains
61. (81:1) the collapse of the sun
62. (84:16) the suns afterglow
63. (86:1,2,3) knocking stars - pulsars
64. (86:11) heavens returning capacity
65. (89:1,3) the even and the odd
66. (91:1) the importance of sunlight
67. (92:1) why the universe is dark?
68. (95:15,16) the quran on the cerebrum
69. (99:2) reversal of gravity

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-27-2005, 05:10 PM
:sl: Let us examine what Root has posted and see if there is any substance to it.

First, his response to me:

More arrogance, you reject the majority view based solely that they don't use the same source material as you.
How is pointing out a logical fallacy, arrogance? I stated that the majority view on the Qur'an is weightless, since the majority of people don't know anything about the Qur'an!

It seems that you are unable to comprehend such a simple point. (And atheism is supposed to be open-minded ::) )

If someone doesn't know about the topic they're evaluating, what use is their evaluation? Your comments are a typical logical fallacy. I could bring you billions of people who think evolution is false, but its meaningless if they don't know anything about evolution.

The majority of people in the world are theists. Based on your own standards you would have to accept that theism is the truth!


I hope its clear now, that it is not the quantity of supporters which validate an argument, but the content of the argument itself.

You could say that the majority of people do not believe the Qur'an is the irrefutable evidence. Heck, they don't even understand what it is!!


So guess what, root? Their opinion is weightless. Someone who has studied the Qur'an and understands its sciences can give a judgement on it.

I hope we are clear on this.

Next, concerning your attempt to rebut the Qur'anic material on the seven layers in the atmosphere:


Hmmmm, very interesting:

Your article was originally posted here: http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p1_09.php

But after being challenged it was removed.
No it was never part of that book. This is a claim of Ali Sina. He is wrong because the author of that article still proudly displays it here, where it always has been:
http://-----------------------/scientific_19.html


The seven heavens:

1. Moon (satellite)
2. Mercury (Planet)
3. Venusm (Planet)
4. Sun (Star)
5. Mars (Planet)
6. Jupitor (Planet)
7. Saturn (planet)
Not likely, becuase the seven heavens are described as protec tive layers, each with a specific funtion.

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2005/04/katmanlar-1.jpg


At least we know that the 7 heavens was not in reference to:

1. The 7 Day week
2. The 7 Arc Angels
3. The 7 Day creation
It could not refer to those because it would be unsported by the context. Seven protectivbe layers over the earth. How could it refer to any of those?


The Islamic site www.pakistanlink.com quotes Maududi, the renowned Muslim scholar and the interpreter of the Quran who says:

“It is difficult to explain precisely what is meant by the ‘seven heavens’. In all ages man has tried, with the help of observation and speculation to conceptualize the ‘heavens’, i.e. that which lies beyond and above the earth. As we know the concepts that have thus developed have constantly changed. Hence it would be improper to tie the meaning of these words of the Qur’an to any one of these numerous concepts. What might be broadly inferred from this statement is that either Allah has divided the universe beyond earth into seven distinct spheres, or that this earth is located in that part of the universe which consists of seven different spheres." [5]
Based on the context, the majority of Qur'anic scholars agree that it refers to the seven layers of the atmosphere, which is the most logical explanation that fits with the context.


As one can see the real scholars of Islam are unable to explain the meaning of the seven heavens mentioned in the Quran and try to give esoteric significance to it.
The Qur'anic verses state:
It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things. (Qur'an, 2:29)

Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate. (Qur'an, 41:11-12)

Do you not see how He created seven heavens in layers? (Qur'an, 71:15)

He Who created the seven heavens in layers. (Qur'an, 67:3)

The Qur'anic verses are open to interpretation, but this interpretation fits best with the context. It is amazing to note the scientific accuracy of the Qur'an.


If we had to believe that the seven heavens is an allusion to the seven layers of the atmosphere then we have to assume that stars must be no more than eleven kilometers above the Earth, because as the verse 41:12 says the lower heaven is adorned with brilliant stars.
False! It says "As-Samaa Ad-Dunya". While some translators have chosen to translate this as the lowest heaven, such a translation is not very accurate when we look at the literal meaning and Qur'anic usage.

https://www.islamicboard.com/

Hence, cosmic heaven is a better translation, which is of course, a reference to outerspace.


Not only Muhammad, like other men of his time, believed that the sky had seven layers, he also thought that the Earth was made of seven layers too.

“Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number…” [Quran 65.12]
1st layer: Lithosphere (water)

2nd layer: Lithosphere (land)

3rd layer: Asthenosphere

4th layer: Upper Mantle

5th layer: Inner Mantle

6th layer: Outer Core

7th layer: Inner Core

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2005/04/dunyakatmalari-1.jpg

This verse is also 100% scientific.


Muhammad was simply stating what seemed to be obvious to the people of his time but of course he was dead wrong according to the modern science.
This is false as we have just proven above.




You call this Science. Firstly, MountEvrest is one of the biggest "pegs" on this planet yet it is only 50 million years old, this mauntain was never "placed" it came about because the land we walk on does move under us which is the complete opposite of what you beleive and have quoted.

One word: Isostasy. (http://-----------------------/scientific_25.html)

:w:

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-27-2005, 05:11 PM
The New world that Awaits You

As you come to the Qur'an, you come to a new world. No other venture in your life can be so momentous and crucial,so blissful and rewarding, as your journey to and through the Qur'an. It is a journey that will take you through the endless joys and riches of the words that your Creator and Lord has sent to you and all mankind. Here you will find a world of untold treasures of knowledge and wisdom to guide you on the pathways of life, to mould your thoughts and actions. In it you will find deep Insights to enrichyou and steer you along the right course.From it you will receive a radiant light to illumine the deeper reaches of your soul. Here you will encounter profound emotions,a warmth to melt your heart and bring tears running down your cheeks. It is crucial for you because, as you travel through the Qur'an,at every step you will summoned to choose,and to commit to Allah.To read the Qur'an is nothing less than to live the Qur'an willingly,sincerely,devotedly,and totally.The outcome of your entire life depends on how you heed the call given by Allah.The journey is therefore decisive for your existence,for
mankind,for the future of human civilization. A hundred new worlds lie in its verses. Whole centuries are invlved in its moments. Know, then, that it is the Qur'an,and only the Qur'an,whichcan lead you on and on to success and glory in this world and in the world to come.

What is the Qur'an?

It is beyond man's power to comprehend,or to dscribe, the greateness and importance of what the Qur'an holds for him.Yet,to begin with, you must have some idea of what it is and what it means to you ,and such that you are inspired to immerse the whole of yourself in the Qur'an,in total commitment,complete dedication and ceaseless pursuit,as it demands.

The Qur'an is Allah's greatst blessing or you .It is the fulfilment of His promise to Adam and his descendants:'there shall come to you guidance from Me, and whatsoever follows My Guidance no fear shall e on them, neither shall they sorrow'(al Baqarah 2:38).It is the only weapon your frail existence as you struggle against the forces of evil and and temptation in this world.It is the only means to overpower your fer and anxiety.It is the
only 'light' (nur) ,as you grope in the drkness,with which to find your way to success and salvation.It is the only healing(shifa) for your inner sickness, as well as the social ills that may surround you .It is the constant reminder(dhikr) of your true nature and destiny, of your station,your duties,your rew It was brought down by one who is powerful and trustworthy in the heavens- the heart of the Prophet Muhammad, blessings and peace be on him. to your Creator.It tells you of Him,of His attributes, of how He rules o to you ,and how you should relate to Him,to yourself ,to your fellow meny other existence.The rewards that await you here are surely many,incrng manifold and the hereafter,but what awaits you at the end of the road promises allah in the Hadith qudsi,'the eye has seen not,nor the ear heard,nor the heart of man ever conceived'.and, adds Abu Hurayra'no human being can imagine what joys are being kept hidden for them in d or all that they did'(Bukhari,Muslim)

Qur'an As Living Constitution

Can the Qur'an again, be living, relevant force, as powerful for us now 1400 years away, as it was then? This is the most crucial question that we must answer if we wish to shape our destiny afresh under the guidance of the Qur'an.

There appear, however, to be some difficulties. Not least of which has to do with the fact that Qur'an was revealed at a certain point in time. Since then we have traveled a long way, made gigantic leaps in technological know-how, and seen considerable social changes take place in human society. Moreover, most of the followers of the Qur'an today do
not know Arabic, and many who do have little idea of the 'living'
language of the Qur'an.

They cannot be expected to absorbs its idioms and metaphor, so essential to exploring and absorbing the depths of the Qur'anic meaning. Yet its guidance, by its own claim, has an eternal relevance for all people, being the word of the Eternal God. For the truth of its claim, it seems to me, it must be possible for us to receive, experience, and understand the Qur'an as it's first recipients did, at least in some measure and to some degree. We seem to almost have a right to this possibility of receiving God's guidance in its fullnes and with all its riches and joys. In other words despite historical incidence of the revelation in a particular language at that particular time and place, we should be capable of receiving the Qur'an now (because its message is eternal), capable of making its message as much a real part of our lives as it was for the first believers and with the same urgent and profound relevance
for all our present concerns and experiences.

But how do we do this? To put it very forthrightly, only by entering the world of the Qur'an as if Allah were speaking to us through it now and today, and by fullfilling the necessary conditions for such an encounter. Firstly, then, we must realize what Qur'an as the word of God is and means to us, and bring all the reverence, love, longing and will to act that this realization demands. Secondly, we must read it as it asks to be read, as Allah's Messenger instructed us, as his Companions
read it. Thirdly, we must bring each word of the Qur'an to bear upon our own realities and concerns by transcending the barriers of time, culture and change.

For the first addressees, the Qur'an was a contemporary event. Its language and style, its eloquence anda rationale, its idiom and metaphor, its symbols and parables,its moments and events were all rooted in their own setting. These people were both witnesses to and in a sense, paticipants in the whole act of revelation as it unfolded over a period of their own time. We do not have the same privilege; yet, in some measures, the same ought to be true for us. By understanding and obeying the Qur'an in our own setting, we will find it, as far as possible, as much a contemporary event for ourselves as it was then. For the essense of man has not chnaged; it is immutable. Only man's externalities- the forms, the modes, the technologies - have changed. The pagans of Makka may be no more, nor the Jews of Yathrib, nor the Christians of Najran, nor even the 'faithful'and the 'unfaithful' of the community of Madina; but the same characters exist all around us. We are humans being exactly as the first recipents were, even though may find
it extremely difficult to grapple with the deep implications of this very simple truth. Once you realize the truths and follow them, once you come to the Qur'an as first believers did, it may reveal to you as it did to them, make partners of you as it did of them. And only then, instead of being a mere revered book, a sacred fossil, or a source of magic-like blessing, it will change into a mighty force, impinging, stirring, moving and guiding us deeper and higher achievements, just as it did
before.

Typed and sent in by:
Umm Anas

root
04-28-2005, 11:26 AM
gggrrrrrrr

Information overload, and you have moved away from specific issues. The sure sign that your on your back foot. Still, I consider the west very fortunate that when it educates it's children to the ways of science that we do not get out copies of the Quran and thankfully never will..................

I am not against your religion or any other religion for that matter. I just object to such "scientific" claims that are false and have no basis.

Regards

Root

Khattab
04-28-2005, 02:37 PM
False and have no basis? great claim to make with out producing any evidence and being unable to refute the points raised by Ansar Al-'Adl. I know of many scientists like Dr Maurice Bucaille, and recently a leading Thai scientist at a conference discussing the Quran and Science, who during it on the last day, came into Islam.

Dr. Keith L. Moore a Professor of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, who is a non-muslim, has studied the Quran in depth and found no flaws at all scientifically. And he himself said he would have no problem at all accepting it as the Word of God. These are learned men root who have studied the Quran and I think would have a lot more knowledge than yourself. So if making your claims like it is "false" makes you feel more secure then go ahead. We have nothing to hide with Quran as we know it is the truth.

http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch13.html


To us our way, to you yours.

Peace

Bin Qasim
04-28-2005, 02:43 PM
Assalaamu Alaikum

I have one question, may be irrelevent but why we need to find out scientific miracles in Quran, isn't speech of Quran, enough for us?? Allah knows best.

Waiting to hear from you.

Allah Hafiz

Khattab
04-28-2005, 02:53 PM
Assalamo-Alaikum

Yes it is more than enough, we know as muslims it is the truth, the sceintific findings just confirm what we already know ie it is the truth. But has been seen in the past it does attract people outside of Islam into it, once they have studied the facts and looked a them. It also shows the Quran can stand the test of time, even today it is showing miracles that where never known at the time of Prophet Muhammed (SWH).

Wa'Salam

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-28-2005, 05:12 PM
Information overload, and you have moved away from specific issues.
Clearly I have not. i have responded directly to every point you raised. And I want you to respond to my point on the majortiy of people having a weightless opinion on the Qur'an, since they know nothing about it.


Still, I consider the west very fortunate that when it educates it's children to the ways of science that we do not get out copies of the Quran and thankfully never will..................
Has anyone here ever advocated that? Such an action would ignore the function of the Qur'an. The function of the Qur'an is not as a scientific text book, or it could have began by listing various numerical constants etc. The Qur'an is a book of guidance from the Creator. And since it is from the Creator of the universe, His statements will alsways be in-line with the laws of science that He created.

The Qur'an is not meant as a scientific textbook. It contains many scientific miracles, but it is meant as a book of guidance.


I just object to such "scientific" claims that are false and have no basis.
I would like to see some evidence of that first.

:w:

root
04-30-2005, 03:15 PM
OK, we need to get some credability going:

I said:


Quote:
Originally Posted by root
Hmmmm, very interesting:

Your article was originally posted here: http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_...quran_p1_09.php

But after being challenged it was removed.

You said?


No it was never part of that book. This is a claim of Ali Sina. He is wrong because the author of that article still proudly displays it here, where it always has been:
http://-----------------------/scientific_19.html

So let us find out which is the truth for I am claiming it was removed from the first site after it was challenged, you are saying that it was never on the site.

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-30-2005, 08:53 PM
What you linked to was not a website, but an online version of a different book.

The article is still and always has been part of the Miracles of the Quran book, as you can see here:
http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p1_03.php#9

To say that it was removed after being challenged is ridiculous, and I would like to see some evidence.

I also await your response to the rest of my points.
:w:

Abdul Fattah
05-02-2005, 12:47 AM
Actually, proving wether this was once told on a certain website, and wether or not is has been removed seems rather pointless and quite frankly does not intrest me. A more relevant question towards the conversation would be: If this was actually removed after being challenged, by what arguments was it challenged?

root
05-04-2005, 12:43 PM
Hi Steve

Back pedal a little.....

Regards

Root

Abdul Fattah
05-04-2005, 08:09 PM
Hi Steve

Back pedal a little.....

Regards

Root

I wasn't adressing you personnal Root, so please do not feel attacked ;)

root
10-13-2005, 10:47 AM
The scienticfic paper you seek is the Quran. Read it and understand it

The Quran as many would agree is not scientific reference point. It is a book of faith or guidance. Besides it is not peer reviewed within the scientific community.


Surely if God exists He is the creator of all things including science. Surly a creation must have a Creator.

The paradox being who created the creator. True, Islam would respond by divine right that god was of no need to be created "he just came to be" which has a firmiliar ring to it from non religous areas too. Either way your "proof" does not exist in a real sense and thus a requirement of religion is "faith". At this point, one is free to believe and everyone has the right. That said, one does not have the right to claim a proof in God from a scientific point of view.

MetSudaisTwice
10-13-2005, 10:52 AM
salam
quran reveals many scientific facts, that proves that allah knows everythinh and human are discovering things in science that were revealed in the quran long ago
wasalam

root
10-13-2005, 11:46 AM
quran reveals many scientific facts, that proves that allah knows everythinh and human are discovering things in science that were revealed in the quran long ago

Hmmm, wonder how you can explain the discovery of the speed of light for example. and then after you find out that it was NOT the Quran can you give me a credible answer as to why "scientific" facts are only randomly confirmed via the quran AFTER the scientific discovery is made and NEVER before............

In fact don't bother.......

I could make 500 scientific predictions and 200 years from now have them reviewed, randomly some will be spot on and others woefully astray. What does this imply for my predictions. Will I become subject to the discoverer of great scientific future discoveries. My top 5 predictions are:

1. The universe is not a singular phenomenan.
2. DNA never originated from Earth.
3. life exists throughout the universe.
4. Other planetory alien life forms watch eastenders regularly.
5. There will be a super massive cataclysmic event that threatens all life.

Judgement is based on the misses and not the hits eh!


Regards

Root

MetSudaisTwice
10-13-2005, 11:51 AM
salam
how do you exlplain the making of an embryo in the mother womb that was not known hundreads of years ago but now is known? surely people back then didn't know much about science. how do you explain the quran explaning the embryo when it wasn't known to man at that time?
wasalam

MetSudaisTwice
10-13-2005, 11:52 AM
salam
how can you confirm scientific facts before discovering them? surely you can only confirm after the discovery
wasalam

root
10-13-2005, 12:06 PM
how do you exlplain the making of an embryo in the mother womb that was not known hundreads of years ago but now is known? surely people back then didn't know much about science. how do you explain the quran explaning the embryo when it wasn't known to man at that time?

As I said before. Judge accuracy on the misses & not the hits!

Everytime a scientific discovery is made, most religous books are scrutanised to try and make it bend to the discovery. When something is found a miracle is proclaimed. When not found, nobody ever finds out.

I have looked into the area of the quran and scientific facts, I never found anything that smacked me in the face and said "how do you explain this rationally".

Let's take clay for example. Dep impact revealed that a comet contains clay, I bet right now the Quran is being scoured word by word to find a "prediction" that clay is abundent in the universe, I don't mean the creation of man from clay I mean other universal bodies containing clay and I don't think I will need to wait that long but I might considering their are about 42,000 Hadiths currently.

P.S before you open the champaigne (figure of speech) they also found complex amino acids and organic matter......

MetSudaisTwice
10-13-2005, 01:45 PM
salam
here are some scientific facts from the quran
Science : Finger tips can be used for Identification
Qur'an : Does man think We cannot assemble his bones?
Yes . . . We are able to put together in perfect
order the very tip of his fingers.

Science : Atoms are found in pairs
Qur'an : Glory be to ALLAH, Who created in pairs all things
that the earth produces, as well as their own( human )
kind, and other things of which they have no knowledge.

Science : Honey is healing for mankind
Qur'an : Comes from their ( the bees ) belleis
a drink of varying colours, wherein is healing
for human being. Verily in this is a sign for people who reflect.

Science : Separation of salt and sea water
Qur'an : Verily He is the One Who has joined
the two seas: this is palatable and sweet, and
this is salty and bitter. And He made a barrier
between the two of them, and a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

Science : Milk as a wholesome meal
Qur'an : And verily for you in the cattle there
is an instructive sign ( lesson ). We give you to
drink of that which is in their bellies from
between excretions and blood, pure milk palatable to the drinkers.

Science : Oceans have darkness under their surfaces
Qur'an : Or as darkness in a vast, deep sea,
there it covers waves, from above which are
waves, from above which are clouds. Darkness
on top of each other. If a man stretches out his
hand, he can hardly see it. And whoever ALLAH
does not make light for him, for him there is no light.

Science : Iron and steel
Qur'an : And We sent down Iron, in which is
severe strength and benefits for mankind.
Verily in this is a Sign for people who reflect.

Science : Sun and Moon
Qur'an : It is not permitted to the sun to catch
up with the Moon, nor the night outstrip the Day. Each floats in an orbit.

Science : Creation of living creatures from water
Qur'an : We made from water every living thing.

Science : Mountains have roots inside the earth
Qur'an : Have We not made the earth as a
wide expanse, and the mountains as pegs.

wasalam

MetSudaisTwice
10-13-2005, 01:48 PM
Finger Prints



Dr. H.A. Hamed says that fingerprints are a register of the curves, which exist when the dermis adheres with the epidermis. These curves differ from one person to the other. Miraculously they are never identical in two persons even if they are twins. They appear in the 3rd month and remain the same till the person’s death, even if the skin is burned, new skin grows with the same fingerprints without the slightest alteration.

What is really interesting is that some criminals in Chicago thought that they could change their fingerprints. So, they removed the skin from their fingertips and replaced it with some pieces from other parts of their bodies. But they were disappointed because the implanted parts grew with the same fingerprints without the slightest change. That is why they are used by the police as a definite proof of the identity of the criminal.

Fingerprints are a palpable sign of God’s power. They: identify the person without the slightest mistake. So, they become the best proof and the truest witness in this world and in the next world.

God in chapter 75, verses 3-4 states that it is in His power not only to gather a dead

person’s bones, but He is able to reshape his finger prints

أَيَحْسَبُ الْإِنسَانُ أَلَّن نَجْمَعَ عِظَامَهُ(3) بَلَى قَادِرِينَ عَلَى أَن نُّسَوِّيَ بَنَانَهُ(4)

القيامة3-4

What, does man reckon we shall not gather his bones?

Yes indeed; we are able to shape again his fingers.

Human development begins at fertilization when a sperm unites with an ovum to form a unicellular organism called a zygote.. This cell marks the beginnings of each of us as a unique individual. [80] (http://www.thedaughterofthenile.com/Main.htm#_ftn80)



The Holy Qur’an states:





هَلْ أَتَى عَلَى الْإِنسَانِ حِينٌ مِّنَ الدَّهْرِ لَمْ يَكُن شَيْئاً مَّذْكُوراً(1) إِنَّا خَلَقْنَا الْإِنسَانَ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ أَمْشَاجٍ نَّبْتَلِيهِ فَجَعَلْنَاهُ سَمِيعاً بَصِيراً"

" الإنسان " آيه2.

Verily we created man from

Mixture of germinated drop.



Ibn Abbass (the Prophet’s cousin) and the best interpreter of the Holy Qur’an says that the “mixture of germinated drop” means the fluid of the man and that of the woman when they get mixed, the embryo goes from one stage of development to another.

All ancient interpreters of the Holy Qur’an strictly followed the same idea simply because it is mentioned in the Holy Qur’an and the prophet’s sayings. It is recorded that one of the Jews asked the prophet:


" فقال يا محمد مم يخلق الإنسان، قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم:


يا يهودى، من كل يخلق، من نطفة الرجل ومن نطفة المرآة:


مسند الإمام مسلم"

O, Mohammed what is man created from? “ The prophet replied: “O Jew,

(he is) created from both from the

man’s Nutfah and from the woman’s Natfah”

(Nutfah: a drop or part of fluid(

wasalam

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-13-2005, 01:55 PM
:sl:
Posts moved here.

MetSudaisTwice
10-13-2005, 01:58 PM
salam
jazakallah bro ansar
wasalam

czgibson
10-14-2005, 05:58 PM
Greetings,

Finger Prints

Dr. H.A. Hamed says that fingerprints are a register of the curves, which exist when the dermis adheres with the epidermis. These curves differ from one person to the other. Miraculously they are never identical in two persons even if they are twins. They appear in the 3rd month and remain the same till the person’s death, even if the skin is burned, new skin grows with the same fingerprints without the slightest alteration.

What is really interesting is that some criminals in Chicago thought that they could change their fingerprints. So, they removed the skin from their fingertips and replaced it with some pieces from other parts of their bodies. But they were disappointed because the implanted parts grew with the same fingerprints without the slightest change. That is why they are used by the police as a definite proof of the identity of the criminal.

Fingerprints are a palpable sign of God’s power. They: identify the person without the slightest mistake. So, they become the best proof and the truest witness in this world and in the next world.

God in chapter 75, verses 3-4 states that it is in His power not only to gather a dead

person’s bones, but He is able to reshape his finger prints

أَيَحْسَبُ الْإِنسَانُ أَلَّن نَجْمَعَ عِظَامَهُ(3) بَلَى قَادِرِينَ عَلَى أَن نُّسَوِّيَ بَنَانَهُ(4)

القيامة3-4

What, does man reckon we shall not gather his bones?

Yes indeed; we are able to shape again his fingers.


If you are prepared to accept that the Qur'an contains a scientific fact here, which could not have been known to people at the time, you are making an interpretation unwarranted by the quoted text. 75:3-4 says nothing about fingerprints being unique to each person, or their use for identification. It looks much more like the text is derived from a person's simple observation that fingerprints are complex, and, so the reasoning goes, only a very powerful and intelligent being could have designed it that way. Isn't that what the text implies? I'm sure an awareness of the fingerprint's complexity would not be beyond the knowledge of someone living around the time of the Prophet (pbuh).

Peace

sumaiya27766483
10-14-2005, 08:57 PM
jazakallah for the links

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-30-2008, 12:28 AM
  2. Replies: 98
    Last Post: 02-22-2007, 03:28 PM
  3. Replies: 22
    Last Post: 02-11-2007, 04:47 PM
  4. Replies: 33
    Last Post: 12-20-2006, 03:19 AM