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Malaikah
02-10-2006, 10:56 AM
Papa, you have posted exactly the story that i thought and hoped you might, and i would liek to present you with a discussion of this hadith.

here is the article: http://www.answering-christianity.co...to_silas_2.htm

i know it is very long, you can skip about half of it (you will know what to skip when you get there).

I will summarise it here for you:
1. This occured during a time of war.
2. The two paragraphs that summarise the page best:


Quote:
Just like Ka’b incited people to fight the prophet Muhammad, telling them to kill him and so on. The prophet returned the favor, just like Ka’b told people to fight Muhammad and kill him, the prophet Muhammad told the Muslims who would go fight and kill Ka’b. Had Ka’b directly went and tried to kill the prophet, the prophet would then directly go and kill Ka’b. However so, Ka’b told others to go kill Muhammad and to fight him, after the prophet Muhammad found out, he told the Muslims who would go fight and kill Ka’b.

So as we see, Ka’b the hypocrite was the one who started all the problems, for himself, and for the Muslims. The prophet Muhammad did not have Ka’b killed because he insulted the prophet or the Muslims, the prophet had Ka’b killed because Ka’b was instigating others to kill Muhammad. He was rightly punished for that crime; Ka’b was not an innocent man by any means. Once you go instigate violence, hatred, and murder against God’s prophet, you are bound to get punished. Ka’b the hypocrite brought this upon himself.


i think the most imprtant part to read would be that part with the heading: THE KILLING OF KA’B B. AL-SHRAF, THE JEW

I hope that helps you understand the issue more.
ok, we can continue here from the other thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...tml#post179840
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PAPA LAZAROU
02-10-2006, 11:05 AM
So Mohammed justification for ordering his execution was that he was a dissenter who urged people to kill mohammed, you agree?

I assumed it should be along those lines, but is that how a prophet deals?
I would like to take an example from the stories of how Jesus dealt with such, if i may.

When in gethsemanie the romans came for Jesus to have him killed, the apostles drew swords, but Jesus told them to put them away.

Is that not the attitude of a man of God?
barak said "kill Mohammad", Mohammed said "kill barak". who is the better person?

Respectfully,
Papa.
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Malaikah
02-10-2006, 11:14 AM
Firstly, i hope you are aware that as a Muslim i will never speak wrongly of Jesus pbuh as we, as muslims, believe that he is a prophet of God, just liek Muhammad pbuh. Jesus was indeed a wonderful person.

But what you should keep in mind is that this occured during a time of war. So it is not like prophet reqeusted that people be killed on regular occassions. The person was trying to speard hatred agaisnt the prophet pbuh and was trying to get other to kill him. I see it as fair, that in a time of war, the proper course of action would be to elimiante the enemy... do you agree?
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lolwatever
02-10-2006, 11:27 AM
Dear Papa,
excuse me for interjecting in this discussion,

So Mohammed justification for ordering his execution was that he was a dissenter who urged people to kill mohammed, you agree?

yep.

I assumed it should be along those lines, but is that how a prophet deals?
I would like to take an example from the stories of how Jesus dealt with such, if i may.

Dear Papa, in christianity, you believe (i assume all chrisitains believe int his?) that "if someone slaps your right cheek, give them your left cheek". Islam, however is a just religion, so it is not a religion which creates an inferioirty complex to the point where people accept to be humilated and assaulted and insulted without the right of defending themselves, nor is it a religion which rears an arrogance-complex within people so that they begin to abuse, destruct and destroy the planet and its inhabitants.

So, when someone attacks another intellectually, the reply should also be intelectually based, since this is from justice. Similarly, when someone attacks or assaults someone physically, the reply is also a physical one for the sake of self-defense. And this is in perfect harmony with planet earth's natural order of operation.... it is totally illogical for you to think you will defend yourself by kissing someone who is about to stick a knife thru ur chest.

When in gethsemanie the romans came for Jesus to have him killed, the apostles drew swords, but Jesus told them to put them away.

Yes that's probably true, and in fact, The beloved prophet Muhammad PBUh was ordered to NOT defend himself physically whilst in makkah (for 13 years) till he was ordered to immigrate to Madinah.

Islam agrees with you full well, in fact it is mentioned in the Quran and Hadith that most prophets where not allowed to retalliate physically, which is why they endured so much hardship for the sake of Allah (God). However, Allah SWT sent with each prophet one message (to only worshop one god and obey the respective messenger), but he also sent with each different messenger a set of laws to be implemented, some of these laws differed between messengers... such as with regards to fighting and military conduct. Islam came as a full package which included defence, politics, social order amongst others..

Is that not the attitude of a man of God?
barak said "kill Mohammad", Mohammed said "kill barak". who is the better person?

'A man of God', as you put it, is someone who obey's Gods commands. And we are ordered to preserve and protect this planet at all costs. If somoene wants to disagere or debate, then by all means, he can do so and has full freedom for that. But if someone is going to incite to kill Muslims without any rationale or justification, then he must be removed for the benefit of humanity.

Respectfully,
Papa.

All the best
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PAPA LAZAROU
02-10-2006, 11:31 AM
I appreciate that muslims regard Jesus as a prophet, that is why i used him as such to measure along side Mohammed.

The Jews at the time of Jesus were constantly warring and rioting against allsorts, especially the romans, which is why the romans feared Jesus would lead the Jews in a revolt against them, and had him killed. He did not lead such a religious war, or had any intention. He had no intention of warring, killing, taking slaves or taking one fifth of the booty stolen from defeated foes.

I do agree that in the time of war, elimination of enemies is the objective.
This though, If we take the example of Jesus, and all the prophets before him as a yardstick as how prophets of God shoud behave, is not the perrogative of a prophet, but that of a warlord, do you not agree?

Respectfully,
Papa.


Respectfully,
Papa.
Reply

PAPA LAZAROU
02-10-2006, 11:41 AM
Hi there lolwatever,
Where do you get the notion I'm christian? I was only using Jesus as an example of a previous Islamic prophet.

In regard to turning the other cheek: do you really think it is the ideology of a christian to stand there while someone beats seven bells out of them?!

a Christian has the right to defend himself in line with his faith, the turning of the cheek to show the other side is a gesture of tolerance towards the intolerance of others.

Wasnt the rationale of Baraks calls for killing Mohammed that he didnt want his possesions stolen, wives taken and then to be murdered?
I find that rational enough.

Respectfully Papa.
Reply

Malaikah
02-10-2006, 11:45 AM
Originally Posted by PAPA LAZAROU
The Jews at the time of Jesus were constantly warring and rioting against allsorts, especially the romans, which is why the romans feared Jesus would lead the Jews in a revolt against them, and had him killed. He did not lead such a religious war, or had any intention. He had no intention of warring, killing, taking slaves or taking one fifth of the booty stolen from defeated foes.
Well, that would probably be becuase it was not Gods plan for him to be involved in war. And also, you might not be aware of this, but God swt has informed us that Isa pbuh (Jesus) DID NOT DIE, the person who was crusified was a hypocrite, God swt changed his appearance so that he can look like Isa pbuh, and they killed him instead. Isa pbuh was taken up to heaven where he now waits (he never died). One day he will come back and will be involved in war. So... i dont think you can use him as a comparision to Muhammad pbuh anymore. :)

On the other hand, it was Gods swt plan that Muhammad pbuh be involved in wars... many of them were in self defense, others were to spread Gods swt word (i.e. islam), and some where even to help out othr cities (which were not even muslim)

Peace.
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Malaikah
02-10-2006, 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by PAPA LAZAROU
Wasnt the rationale of Baraks calls for killing Mohammed that he didnt want his possesions stolen, wives taken and then to be murdered?
I find that rational enough.
who is barak? sorry, you lost me now..
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lolwatever
02-10-2006, 11:56 AM
heya Papa,
lol i got the thought u where christian coz u referred to jesus... i just noticed u got Jedi written there.. (never heard of that).


In regard to turning the other cheek: do you really think it is the ideology of a christian to stand there while someone beats seven bells out of them?!

a Christian has the right to defend himself in line with his faith, the turning of the cheek to show the other side is a gesture of tolerance towards the intolerance of others.


believe it or not, i've tried saying that to some christian preachers and they seem to take the verse literally... [except the crusaders it seems] and you seem to have the same understanding when u quoted the incident when the romans came to kill jesus and he ordered the apostles to not fight.

regardless, Muslims believe, that command was for the time of Jesus, and do not question Allah (God)'s motive for that order. As far as Muslims are concerend, in Islam they have the right to defend themselves.



Wasnt the rationale of Baraks calls for killing Mohammed that he didnt want his possesions stolen, wives taken and then to be murdered?
I find that rational enough.

If a non Muslim's wealth was being stolen by someone (Muslim or not Muslim), then by all means he cand defend himself... and he has the full right to do that.. in fact if u look into the concept of 'dhimmi tax' in islam.. that's exactly the point, their wealth, health and safety is literally insured by the state (i.e. if needs be an army will be sent out to defend a non Muslim who is being attacked unjustly). Otherwise if they're not paying tax (and if they dont fit into the 'tax free' citizens), they still are entitled to defend themselves.


All the Best
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akulion
02-10-2006, 12:17 PM
Salam Alaikum

Well I dont see an issue here....

God Gave the Prophet (sa) the commandment to proclaim Islam openly and then to strive against those who fight the Muslims.

So if Mohammed(sa) defended himself and foought against the enemies of Islam so he did exactly as God commanded :)
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lolwatever
02-10-2006, 12:36 PM
That is true, there are verses that say precisely that. (I can't recall them at the moment).

I think it comes down to 'phraseology', when people translate simple events using emotionally loaded language. (e.g. he killed in defense = he murdered, mujahid = terrorist, amir = opressor, islam = anti-freedom, jihad = anti-peace, leader = war wager just to mention a very few..).

That's not to say people ought to be devoid of emotions :) , nor is it to say that mis-using emotionally loaded terms is endorsed ;)
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Abu Zakariya
02-10-2006, 02:19 PM
We can compare the life of Jesus with the life of Muhammed. Jesus' prophetic mission lasted for a few years before he was allegedly crucified. I don't know exactly for how long it lasted, but let's say it lasted for about 13 years. The people tried to kill him etc. and he didn't defend himself. If we are to compare this to Muhammed, the same thing can be said. For the first 13 years of his mission, he didn't even defend himself when people tried to kill him.
So if we are to compare these two in context, then there's no big difference.

We can compare him to another prophet, though; Moses.
How did he handle the people of Midian?

They did battle against Midian, as the LORD had commanded Moses, and killed every male... The Israelites took the women of Midian and their little ones captive; and they took all their cattle, their flocks, and all their goods as booty. All their towns where they had settled, and all their encampments, they burned, but they took all the spoil and all the booty, both people and animals.
Numbers 31: 7 - 11
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-10-2006, 04:50 PM
:sl:
All such allegations have already been debunked:
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/index...f-atrocities-i
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/index...-atrocities-ii

Seeing as they are already refuted, I really so no need to repeat what has already been mentioned.
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shanu
02-11-2006, 04:32 PM
u know wats the prob here, i tell u wats the prob. Christians believe in alot of miracles, and they made a mere prophet, a god of theirs. What they cant stand is, Prophet Mohammed lived like a odinary human. God sent Prophet mohammed pbuh down, to show people how to live as a human. Many christians and jews cannot relate to Musa or Isa, as they make it sound as if they are god. In fact, their original books itself disappeared, what abt their teachings? How do we not know that they too lived like odinary human beings just like Prophet Mohammed pbuh. During the time of the prophet, many ppl married many woman, some even their own mothers. gOD SENT the prophet down to taech them how to live. If u intend to marry more than one, god showed through the prophet how to live. Do u think that muslims just marry any woman they like and live as they want. There are many rules to it, 1stly, u have to treat them equally, if nt u will pay a high price 4 that, and u have to ask ur 1st wives consent, to get married. There are alot of rules. Anyway, the prophet pbuh married these woman becos they lost their husbands in the war, and he felt responsible 4 them. Furthermore, you may argue, y cant u keep them elsewhere or help them finacially like it happens todae. Dear people, the society of the past is alien to ours. U feed and clothe a woman of the past, people will talk ill about you and accuse her of adultery, to prevent all these, the prophet married them. Another thing, islam wanted to teach ppl that widows can remarry. And they can divorce too. This is only being practical, In the past, woman didnt even have a voice, isnt this a majot revolution?

War had to take place during the prophets time, if nt islam could never had spread. Do u noe how many tortures our early muslims endured in the start. The quraishes beat the hell out of them. People were seperated and so on. If prophet Mohammed pbuh was a murderer, why would he migrate in the 1st place. We must learn something here, if he was a ruthless murderer he would have caused a war straightway, instead of migrating 1st, doing the istikaarah prayer many times and them unwillingly go to war. U see it now? This also tells us smtg, the prophet doesnt jump into conclusions, he made the ppl migrate to save them from the qurasies, then when the torture was too much, war had to be made to defend themselves and solidise islam.

Prophet Mohammed pbuh wasnt a man of voilence, infact he was unwillingly went to war. And when he saw the bloodshed of war he became upset. And, if a man wants to kill u, u can run away from him, but if he keeps coming 4 ur head, then u must defend urself. So is Prophet Mohammed pbuh a murderer or was he merely defending himself,
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mahdisoldier19
02-12-2006, 07:47 AM
Originally Posted by PAPA LAZAROU
So Mohammed justification for ordering his execution was that he was a dissenter who urged people to kill mohammed, you agree?

I assumed it should be along those lines, but is that how a prophet deals?
I would like to take an example from the stories of how Jesus dealt with such, if i may.

When in gethsemanie the romans came for Jesus to have him killed, the apostles drew swords, but Jesus told them to put them away.

Is that not the attitude of a man of God?
barak said "kill Mohammad", Mohammed said "kill barak". who is the better person?

Respectfully,
Papa.

And then when the crusaders came, Salahuddin said forgive them. But the crusaders said Kill all the muslims the women children all the innocent civilians in Jersualem Not even War.

DURING WAR Salahuddin still forgave them.
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