The Ontological Explanation For God

[The Architect]

A friend of mine recently asked me this question: "Can you explain God without favoring a religion?" I've come up with a theory. I am a Christian myself, but I really do believe this theory gives a new perspective on God, one that most religions would not get angry over. And I'd like to share it with the Muslim community. Please, I'd like no flaming at all. I respect your religion, and I want this to be a peaceful discussion. Anyway, on to my theory...

Each aspect of myself that I can perceive, I know to be a product of the universe. I am simply a fragment of a greater whole. Every atom, the patterns that make up my body are not unique, but may be found in greater quantities and myriads of examples in the universe. All the components exist outside and independently of the final product. This brings me to the question of my conscience. It seems that this too is simply a product of a greater whole. It seems unlikely that matter and energy alone can produce conscience. To me it seems more plausible that conscience is as fundamental to the universe as matter and energy.

If this fundamental conscience is God, then our limitations result when we begin to try to define God. Defining the Infinite can only make It less. God would be worthy of worship if God is something of such unfathomable wonder that we are left in awe of a mere glimpse.

Some of you may ask: "Why do you deem conscience merit for worship?" or you may ask how it can be deemed for worship. I'm only guessing. I use the example of conscience because to me, that seems to be the only thing that would make sense if this Being is intelligent enough to create all that we see, hear, feel, taste, and are. I can't define exactly what God is because of course, I do not know, I can't know. You need a conscience in order to function intelligently, correct?

Now how do we explain God in relation to time?

Well, I believe God is beyond time. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, as well as many other religions suggest that God is here, has always been here, and will always be here. God doesn't live in the same time as we do, or does He live in a time at all? Perhaps His life is a sort of "linear existence". He has an infinite amount of time for each and every one of us; He doesn't have to answer our prayers all at once and in a mass. With His life it is, so to speak, still 1920 and also 2006. For there is no before or after for God, He is always in the present (He sees all time as the present), and thus, has always been here. If there is no before or after for God as religion suggests, then what about energy?

Now, time is a factor in how energy is distributed and received, so if God is infinite, then what about energy up around Him? Is it just floating around up there in eternity? That is a question I can't answer, but it explains afterlife. If our souls are made up of energy and conscience, then we're constant, we can't be destroyed, we live forever, our should at least. I realize that some of you will say: "Energy cannot be created either, so you're saying we can't be made.", but if God can do anything, then who's to say He cannot create energy and matter and conscience?

Maybe you are not understanding this theory, or maybe you are, but I am going to clarify.

When I say that conscience is as fundamental to the universe as matter and energy, I mean that it could be on the same level as matter and energy. If this is so, then this conscience could be a God-like figure or God. This also goes into a sort of "Matrix" theory, if you will; about what is "real" and what is not "real". It suggests that conscience could be on the same level as matter and energy, but of course, not tangible in the respect that you may be thinking of; that is being able to see, touch, hear, or even being perceptible to the human mind. I did not mean that an individual's conscience is God either. I meant that God is a sort of...living conscience, if you will, that possibly lives outside of the body, outside of our known universe, outside of time. Of course, this fundamental conscience that may be God is much more powerful and much higher than we could ever hope to be, for He created us. And of course, a conscience can create, in a sense. On God's level of mind however, His thinking is far superior to ours, to the point that He's able to create matter, energy, and even consciences or, souls.

Many keep trying to bring science and logic into this, but science and logic can only go so far. It's harder to try to disprove the existence of God than it is to try to prove it. Think about this: If there were no God, then we should have never found out that there isn't a God in the first place. To say that there isn't a God is just like saying it is dark, if light did not exist. If light did not exist, then you would not be able to perceive dark. Many also say that people created God; perhaps to gain power over other people, or because they were scared of what is beyond death and this world, so people created God and afterlife, and created our basic morals i.e. the Ten Commandments. Well, this simply does not make sense. How could we create something that we cannot fully comprehend or perceive? And we could have never created our basic morals. For we, as humans, to create laws and morals, we must first have an understanding of previous morals. All laws and morals that humans have created are simply extensions or corrections of previous laws and morals. And to create something our of fear; yet again I ask: How could we create something that we cannot fully understand or perceive?

Your thoughts?

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Welcome to the forum! :)

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought you were going to present some version of the ontological argument for the existence of god, and I see that that's sort of what you've done, but in relation to conscience.

You need a conscience in order to function intelligently, correct?

I'd say the only answer to this is: maybe. It all depends on what you see as intelligence. We consider dolphins to be intelligent, but do they have a conscience? We don't really know.

Do child-killers have a conscience? Are they intelligent? These are deep questions, which is why I think that basing your theory on conscience introduces quite a few unknowables into the equation.

It's harder to try to disprove the existence of God than it is to try to prove it. Think about this: If there were no God, then we should have never found out that there isn't a God in the first place.

What if some people simply created god and then others tried to show that god was in fact a human creation, rather than anything self-subsistently existing independently of human thought?

Many also say that people created God; perhaps to gain power over other people, or because they were scared of what is beyond death and this world, so people created God and afterlife, and created our basic morals i.e. the Ten Commandments. Well, this simply does not make sense. How could we create something that we cannot fully comprehend or perceive? And we could have never created our basic morals. For we, as humans, to create laws and morals, we must first have an understanding of previous morals. All laws and morals that humans have created are simply extensions or corrections of previous laws and morals. And to create something our of fear; yet again I ask: How could we create something that we cannot fully understand or perceive?

The theory you're arguing against here is one that I hold, following Emile Durkheim. You can find me espousing it (and Ansar Al-Adl's criticisms of it) on this thread:

Development of Theism

Peace

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Architect and welcome to Load-Islam forums! :) I look forward to reading more of your posts and I'm sure we will all have interesting ideas to share with eachother. As a theist as well, I'm naturally in agreement with much of what you've said about God existing beyond space and time. Part of this discussion boils down to - can sentient life arise from inanimate matter?

Since we have discussed many of these ideas in the following two threads, I'm going to avoid repeating myself:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tence-god.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post137084

Regards

[mahdisoldier19]

Assalam Alaikam

Artichitect peace and blessings upon you,

What an article this was!!!!!!!!!

My theory is you should believe La illah ha Illallah wa muhammdu rasoolilah, and you should be fine!

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[The Architect]

Assalam Alaikam
My theory is you should believe La illah ha Illallah wa muhammdu rasoolilah, and you should be fine!

Sorry, but I don't quite understand. What is "La illah ha Illallah wa muhammdu rasoolilah" and "Assalam Alaikam"? I'm not familiar with the language. :)

[Issa]

Sorry, but I don't quite understand. What is "La illah ha Illallah wa muhammdu rasoolilah" and "Assalam Alaikam"? I'm not familiar with the language. :)

:sl: ,

Assalam Alaikum = peace be unto you
La illah ha Illallh wa muhammdu rasoolilah = there is no God but Allah (God) and Muhammed is his messenger.

Welcome to the forum. The words you are unfamiliar with are Arabic. The first is how we greet eachother and the second is the shahada (our profession to all that we only worship God).

If I am being to simple, brothers and sisters, please help me out.:sister:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Architect,
I noticed something in your post that you could probably clarify:

Many keep trying to bring science and logic into this, but science and logic can only go so far

I agree about the limitations of science, but haven't you already used logic in your explanation itself?

Callum also raised some interesting questions:

We consider dolphins to be intelligent, but do they have a conscience? We don't really know.

Dolphins are very intelligent in the way they percieve and interact with their environment. But are they able to reflect on themselves? To ponder over their own existence? Can they reason as humans do?

Do child-killers have a conscience?

I think so. It's just clouded and/or supressed.
Regards

[Issa]

I say simple not because you didn't know, Architect. Only because I might not have been accurate in my translation...

[The Architect]

Hello Architect,
I noticed something in your post that you could probably clarify:

I agree about the limitations of science, but haven't you already used logic in your explanation itself?

Hello there Ansar Al-'Adl.

Yes, I have. "Many keep trying to bring science and logic into this, but science and logic can only go so far". What I meant by this can be seen in the last part: "can only go so far". I meant that science and logic can be applied to this issue, to an extent. As you can see, this is what I have done. Anymore is applied, and everything tends to become muddled and confused it seems.

We consider dolphins to be intelligent, but do they have a conscience? We don't really know.

Hello Callum.

I was only meaning to refer to humans. I am not doubting that dolphins or other animals could indeed have a conscience, and maybe even ponder over their own existence however.

Assalam Alaikum :)

[root]

Dolphins are very intelligent in the way they percieve and interact with their environment. But are they able to reflect on themselves? To ponder over their own existence? Can they reason as humans do?

That in part is already answered

Their remarkable capacities suggest that dolphins, like apes, may come to recognize themselves in mirrors (e.g., Anderson, 1984; Gallup, 1970, 1982; Lethmate & Dücker, 1973; Suarez and Gallup, 1981). This chapter reports on the results of a series of studies utilizing a mirror to assess whether dolphins recognize contingent representations of themselves or use the mirror to examine an area of the body not otherwise visible that has been marked with a highly salient substance.

http://www.earthtrust.org/delbook.html

[azim]

That in part is already answered

Their remarkable capacities suggest that dolphins, like apes, may come to recognize themselves in mirrors (e.g., Anderson, 1984; Gallup, 1970, 1982; Lethmate & Dücker, 1973; Suarez and Gallup, 1981). This chapter reports on the results of a series of studies utilizing a mirror to assess whether dolphins recognize contingent representations of themselves or use the mirror to examine an area of the body not otherwise visible that has been marked with a highly salient substance.

http://www.earthtrust.org/delbook.html

So "I think... therefore I am" has now been replaced with "I recognise myself in a mirror...therefore I am".