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View Full Version : The Soldiers in Iraq and their deeds



akulion
02-16-2006, 09:27 PM
Salam Alaikum

The pigs and swines as we already know have invaded Iraq and the true stories of their atrocities are revealed over time....

Read this article and you will surely have a broken heart and rage running through your body!

==========Warning Explicit Article==================

=========Kids are advised not to read this============


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An Iraqi Woman's Ordeal
At Abu Gharib


23 July, 2004
IslamOnline.net

The rape ordeal she suffered at the hands of US soldiers, both males and females, in the notorious Abu Gharib prison will continue to haunt Nadia for the rest of her life.

Though freed now, she is "imprisoned" in painful memories that left her psychologically and physically scarred, paying the price of the brutality and sadism of her American jailers.

Nadia, the name given by a freed Iraqi female prisoner to Al-Wasat, a weekly supplement of the respectable London-based Al-Hayat newspaper, felt it incumbent upon herself to speak out and expose the less-talked-about abuse of female prisoners in US-run detention camps across Iraq.

Her visit to a relative ended up in her detention by American troops, who stormed the home under the preferable excuse of "searching for weapons".

"I tried in vain to convince the impeded interpreter I was a guest, but I lost consciousness to find myself later in a dingy dark cell all by myself," Nadia recalled.

With tears rolling down her cheeks, she told the paper how she was stripped by her "liberators" of the most precious thing an Arab and Muslim women can have: Her virginity.

"A thrill of fear ran through me when I saw US soldiers laughing hysterically with a female solider telling me mockingly in an Arabic accent ‘I never heard about female arms dealer in Iraq’," Nadia said.

"As I tried hard to explain to her that I was wrongly rounded up, the female soldier started accosting and kicking me with my cries and pleas falling on dead ears."

She went on: "She gave me a cup of water and no sooner had I started sipping it than I went into a deep trance to find myself later naked and raped."

‘Like Animals’

Only then Nadia realized that hard times and an uncertain fate were lying ahead.

And days proved her right. The other day, five soldiers fondled and raped her one after another in a distasteful sex orgy on the tunes of culturally offensive heavy metal music.

"One month later, a soldier showed up and told me in broken Arabic to take a shower. And before finishing my bath, he kicked the door open. I slapped him but he raped me like animals and called two of his colleagues, who forced me to have sex with them for up to 10 times," added Nadia.

"Four months later, the female soldier came along with four male soldiers with a digital camera. She stripped me naked and started fondling me as if she was a man while her male colleagues broke into laughter and started taking photos.

"Reluctant as I was, she fired four shots close to my head and threatened to kill me if I resist. Then, four soldiers raped me sadistically and I lost conscience. Later, she forced me to watch a clip of my raping, saying bluntly: ‘Your were born to give us pleasure’."

Naida was set free from the US hell in Abu Gharib after spending up to six months there.

The American soldiers dumped her along the highway of Abu Gharib and gave her a meager of 10,000 dinars to "start a new life".

Too ashamed to return home, she now works as a housemaid for an Iraqi family.

Britain’s mass-circulation The Guardian revealed on May 12 that US soldiers in Iraq have sexually humiliated and abused several Iraqi female detainees in Abu Gharib.

In its May 10-17 issue, the Newsweek said that yet-unreleased Abu Gharib abuse photos "include an American soldier having sex with a female Iraqi detainee and American soldiers watching Iraqis have sex with juveniles."

The Iraqi abuse scandal exploded onto the world stage on April 29 after the CBS news network published several shocking photos of Iraqi detainees tortured and sexually abused by US soldiers.

In a damning report presented to the administration in February, before the outbreak of the scandal, US Major General Antonio Taguba found numerous "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses" at the prison complex.
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north_malaysian
02-17-2006, 03:06 AM
Filipinos and Okinanwans also have experience with immoral American soldier raping their girls. Dont they ever learnt about morality and law in military schools?
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mahdisoldier19
02-17-2006, 03:23 AM
Assalam Alaikam

Who was the one that said There was no raping Going on In Iraq? I remember someone saying Oh US Soldiers wouldnt do that

Literally Tears fell into my eyes after reading this
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north_malaysian
02-17-2006, 03:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Assalam Alaikam

Who was the one that said There was no raping Going on In Iraq? I remember someone saying Oh US Soldiers wouldnt do that
I think american has nothing but sex,sex,sex in their mind. If you see their sitcoms, movies, vid clips - their lifestyle is like - going to schools and be stylish or looks cool, being virgin is yucky, saying lots of 'f' words, be drunk, be drugged. Their lives seems aimless.
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Ummu Amatullah
02-17-2006, 03:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
I think american has nothing but sex,sex,sex in their mind. If you see their sitcoms, movies, vid clips - their lifestyle is like - going to schools and be stylish or looks cool, being virgin is yucky, saying lots of 'f' words, be drunk, be drugged. Their lives seems aimless.
Asallama Alaikum brother,
Bad news it doesn't seem it is.:'( :-\
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abdul Majid
02-17-2006, 03:55 AM
i hope they burn in hell, they will get punished for there kufr, and there deeds as well
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north_malaysian
02-17-2006, 06:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Shukri
Asallama Alaikum brother,
Bad news it doesn't seem it is.:'( :-\
I wonder why American entertainment world want the people worldwide to think that all of them (the americans) behave like Paris Hilton!?
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Sis786
02-17-2006, 09:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by akulion

‘Like Animals’
I couldnt say it better myself!
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HeiGou
02-17-2006, 10:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Filipinos and Okinanwans also have experience with immoral American soldier raping their girls. Dont they ever learnt about morality and law in military schools?
And Lebanese have no experience of Syrian solders doing the same? Yemenis no experience of Egyptian soldiers? At least the Americans attempt to punish them.

My question would be a simpler one: given the total lack of evidence for this claim - reported in a not-entirely-disinterested paper with anonymous reporting - why do you all want to believe it is true? There is no compelling reason to think it is true, so why do you?

Another question I will not ask is what is the source of you outrage? Would you be so outraged if the soldiers were Muslims and the women were not?
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S_87
02-17-2006, 10:06 AM
:sl:

Astaghfirullah. may Allah guide or punish these people! Astahgfirullah. her life is one shattered life. SubhanAllah

ps. do u have a link for this?
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Sis786
02-17-2006, 10:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
And Lebanese have no experience of Syrian solders doing the same? Yemenis no experience of Egyptian soldiers? At least the Americans attempt to punish them.

My question would be a simpler one: given the total lack of evidence for this claim - reported in a not-entirely-disinterested paper with anonymous reporting - why do you all want to believe it is true? There is no compelling reason to think it is true, so why do you?

Another question I will not ask is what is the source of you outrage? Would you be so outraged if the soldiers were Muslims and the women were not?
I would be equally disgusted NO LIE! If not even more as THEY are Muslims. HeiGou why dont you see Muslims DONT accept one EVIL and CONDEM another. Rape is disgusting no matter WHO commits it. But the point of this topis is that as you said the War was to STOP such evil and instead you have even MORE evil in that country!
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HeiGou
02-17-2006, 10:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sis786
I would be equally disgusted NO LIE! If not even more as THEY are Muslims. HeiGou why dont you see Muslims DONT accept one EVIL and CONDEM another. Rape is disgusting no matter WHO commits it. But the point of this topis is that as you said the War was to STOP such evil and instead you have even MORE evil in that country!
Hmm, as I said, it is not a question I care to ask. So I won't. I am not sure I did say the point of the war was to stop such evil. And I do not accept that there is more evil in Iraq now than there was. Moreover there is a process under way at the moment that I hope will lead to democracy and peace in Iraq. Well it won't. It will lead to a Shia theocracy. But the old UN sanctions were truly awful and caused much more suffering. It is good that they are gone. When the Americans are gone too and the Iraqis are free to impose whatever oppression they like on each other, Iraq will still be a better place than it was under Saddam.

But you did not answer my main question: given the total lack of evidence for this claim - reported in a not-entirely-disinterested paper with anonymous reporting - why do you all want to believe it is true? There is no compelling reason to think it is true, so why do you?
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Isma'el
02-17-2006, 10:20 AM
May Allah destroy those who insult our sisters n brother....n may Allah grant our brother n sisters who are suffering eveywhere eternal paradise...ameeeeen

............Allahumannsur al mujaheedin fe kulli iraq..............
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Ghazi
02-17-2006, 10:22 AM
Salaam

American soliders think they can do what they want holding people with no evidence and no charge, and they call us terrorists
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HeiGou
02-17-2006, 10:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

American soliders think they can do what they want holding people with no evidence and no charge, and they call us terrorists
I do not think they call "you" terrorists - if by that you mean all Muslims. They call some terrorists terrorists.

There is an odd implication here though. Are you claiming that all Islamist terrorists produce evidence first? They produces charges as well? It looks to me as if the terrorists kill people indiscriminately without any sort of procedure at all. How is that comparable with the US who do have procedures, who do occasionally let people out and who do not execute them without some proof?
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HeiGou
02-17-2006, 10:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isma'el
May Allah destroy those who insult our sisters n brother....n may Allah grant our brother n sisters who are suffering eveywhere eternal paradise...ameeeeen
I am not sure about "insult" but I would join you in hoping for punishment in this world and the next for all rapists, whether of your sisters or of mine.
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Ghazi
02-17-2006, 10:27 AM
Salaam

did you see what is going on in Guantanamo(spelling) they're put terror in people, So arn't they terrorists, I think america needs to take a good look at it's own society before trying to fix others.
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Sis786
02-17-2006, 10:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
So When the Americans are gone too and the Iraqis are free to impose whatever oppression they like on each other, Iraq will still be a better place than it was under Saddam.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D YOU think the Americans are GONNA LEAVE!!! ;D ;D

format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
But you did not answer my main question: given the total lack of evidence for this claim - reported in a not-entirely-disinterested paper with anonymous reporting - why do you all want to believe it is true? There is no compelling reason to think it is true, so why do you?
For the same reason that YOU believe that Saddam was doing all THOSE evil acts.
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HeiGou
02-17-2006, 10:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
did you see what is going on in Guantanamo(spelling) they're put terror in people, So arn't they terrorists, I think america needs to take a good look at it's own society before trying to fix others.
Well no. They are trying to bring justice. This is what states do. They are screwing up big time, but they are not trying to scare people. Just criminals.
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HeiGou
02-17-2006, 10:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sis786
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D YOU think the Americans are GONNA LEAVE!!! ;D ;D
I suspect gambling in Islam is wrong so you won't put money on it, but there is no doubt the Americans are going to leave. Even if they pull back to their four big bases, Iraq would still be better off than it was under Saddam. In theory it would be even better off than if they were left on their own.

For the same reason that YOU believe that Saddam was doing all THOSE evil acts.
I have a very selective view of what acts Saddam may or may not have done. Which do you think I believe?
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Duhaa
02-17-2006, 11:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I am not sure about "insult" but I would join you in hoping for punishment in this world and the next for all rapists, whether of your sisters or of mine.
True. Good point. I mean do these people whoever they may be not think?
What if (God forbid) someone raped their mother, daughter or sister? :offended:
The world would be a fine place if everyone understood and pondered over this.
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Ninth_Scribe
02-17-2006, 08:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isma'el
May Allah destroy those who insult our sisters n brother....n may Allah grant our brother n sisters who are suffering eveywhere eternal paradise...ameeeeen
Every country has murderes, rapists and thieves ~ and I speak from experience myself (New York, 1974). Rapists in particular, because they're filthy, should have their ----- cut off, no matter what country they're from! Maybe I would have married had I not been given such a horrible start to that passage of life. But I can definately relate to the after-effect. You never trust and you always feel "less than" which is why I have no mate.

Ninth Scribe
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knuckles
02-17-2006, 09:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Hmm, as I said, it is not a question I care to ask. So I won't. I am not sure I did say the point of the war was to stop such evil. And I do not accept that there is more evil in Iraq now than there was. Moreover there is a process under way at the moment that I hope will lead to democracy and peace in Iraq. Well it won't. It will lead to a Shia theocracy. But the old UN sanctions were truly awful and caused much more suffering. It is good that they are gone. When the Americans are gone too and the Iraqis are free to impose whatever oppression they like on each other, Iraq will still be a better place than it was under Saddam.

But you did not answer my main question: given the total lack of evidence for this claim - reported in a not-entirely-disinterested paper with anonymous reporting - why do you all want to believe it is true? There is no compelling reason to think it is true, so why do you?
Man you are my hero
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imaad_udeen
02-17-2006, 11:01 PM
All rapists are criminals and deserve to be treated with the harshest of punishments.

Whether the story posted in this thread is true or not, I do not know, and it is odd enough for me to be suspicious.

There is so much disinformation in this war that one must be very careful in believing anything, otherwise we just become puppets of the propaganda machines which are churning strong on both sides.
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mahdisoldier19
02-18-2006, 03:11 AM
Brother, you call that Shaitan
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abdul Majid
02-18-2006, 03:19 AM
Hahahahaa
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shorouk
02-18-2006, 04:06 AM
and they still think they have the right to speak of human rights???
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Trumble
02-18-2006, 08:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sis786
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D YOU think the Americans are GONNA LEAVE!!! ;D ;D

Of course they will leave. If for no other reason than it would be completely politically unacceptable in the United States for them to remain once the new Iraqi government asks them to go.
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shanu
02-18-2006, 12:03 PM
a pure woman treated like a prostitute
Y are people so cruel? I shall pray 4 this woman. I can understand her feelings. Its a terrible nightmare. God will deal with those soldiers! What hurts me is that a woman was among them. I read a similar article and view pics on that, but in it there were torturing iraqi men. N her name was Sabrina if im right. Iraq holds such a terrible fate. 1st it was under the Tyrant Saddam, n now under Some idiots. Well i hope no one hates the US people 4 some crime some idiots did. We must remmber many US people were against this war too. These soldiers wont get away that easily, they'll be punished certainly and severely by god. I hope that Nadia finds peace

Heigou, we are not condeming americans. Its a inhumane crime, i hope that the soldiers suffer a great deal 4 hurting this woman. Rape happens everywhere. If this happened to an american woman by a muslim soldeir, that i'll personally make sure he suffers a great punishment under sharia law!! So please, cant u see we r sad abt this woman? Is this da time to argue, whether americans, iraqis did da same. Saddam was much worse too, thank god he's in a cage, i hope they would punish him according to da sharia law too
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Umu 'Isa
02-18-2006, 12:06 PM
this is terrible.. i cant imagine the pain she must of gone through..
some people are so sick! :'( :'(
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shanu
02-18-2006, 12:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Every country has murderes, rapists and thieves ~ and I speak from experience myself (New York, 1974). Rapists in particular, because they're filthy, should have their ----- cut off, no matter what country they're from! Maybe I would have married had I not been given such a horrible start to that passage of life. But I can definately relate to the after-effect. You never trust and you always feel "less than" which is why I have no mate.

Ninth Scribe
Talking abt cutting off, lol i heard a man who punished another man by the cutting method, when he discovered an innocent woman raped. Not a bad idea? actually lol ;D
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shanu
02-18-2006, 12:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
I think american has nothing but sex,sex,sex in their mind. If you see their sitcoms, movies, vid clips - their lifestyle is like - going to schools and be stylish or looks cool, being virgin is yucky, saying lots of 'f' words, be drunk, be drugged. Their lives seems aimless.
Oii, not all americans are like that la :heated:
Some of them have that ideology but there are still some who are clean...
Its just that some carry such a dirty concept. I agree their movies are like that, but i still think that not 100% of them are like that. Its prejudice my dear muslim bro :thankyou: :X
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HeiGou
02-20-2006, 11:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by shanu
Heigou, we are not condeming americans. Its a inhumane crime, i hope that the soldiers suffer a great deal 4 hurting this woman. Rape happens everywhere. If this happened to an american woman by a muslim soldeir, that i'll personally make sure he suffers a great punishment under sharia law!! So please, cant u see we r sad abt this woman? Is this da time to argue, whether americans, iraqis did da same. Saddam was much worse too, thank god he's in a cage, i hope they would punish him according to da sharia law too
Actually I do not mind condemning Americans. God knows they do enough to deserve it. But it needs to be fair - they should also get credit when they do well. This is an alleged inhuman crime. There is no evidence it is true. There is no real reason to believe it is true. Why do you believe it?

Muslims in general do not have good records when it comes to punishing rapists. It has traditionally been all but impossible to prove in a Sharia court. Muslims have traditionally not cared at all about non-Muslim women being raped. So there seems to be a double standard here - when Americans are merely alleged to have raped, people denounce them. When Muslims have been shown to have raped, well, silence would be the nicest way to put it.

All I ask is for a little fairness.
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Sis786
02-20-2006, 03:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Actually I do not mind condemning Americans. God knows they do enough to deserve it. But it needs to be fair - they should also get credit when they do well. This is an alleged inhuman crime. There is no evidence it is true. There is no real reason to believe it is true. Why do you believe it?

Yeah Malcom X, American he gets credit, There are many people from America who get credit another women is Angelia Jolie from her good deeds i see her. The fact she is American or whatever does not matter. Here we are taking about American Soldiers raping a women. The Soldiers are in this country APPARANLTY to bring justice and equality and this is there work this is not one case there are hundreds. The Evidence you are asking for is not gonna happen because you want the Media or the Government to look into this. Unfortunately when it comes to such cases the Media like to back off and the Government rather it swept under a carpet.

It makes me soo angry knowing the EVIL these people bring to such lands and then they stand on cosy platforms taking about tolerance and talking down to Muslims. Makes my blood boil

Yes i know there are Muslims who may be doing the same thing and i condemn that too BUT by saying that we cant take our anger out because its not fair is complete nonsense. NOTHING in this world is fair YET we must still speak up about evil and condemn it.

TWO wrongs don’t make a right!!!
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HeiGou
02-20-2006, 04:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sis786
Yeah Malcom X, American he gets credit, There are many people from America who get credit another women is Angelia Jolie from her good deeds i see her. The fact she is American or whatever does not matter. Here we are taking about American Soldiers raping a women. The Soldiers are in this country APPARANLTY to bring justice and equality and this is there work this is not one case there are hundreds. The Evidence you are asking for is not gonna happen because you want the Media or the Government to look into this. Unfortunately when it comes to such cases the Media like to back off and the Government rather it swept under a carpet.
I am inclined to give little credit to publicity seeking media figures, but let's not back bite here! No, we are not talking about American soldiers raping women. We are talking about an allegation that American soldiers raped a woman - an allegation made by a not-entirely-disinterested media outlet which does not happen to have very good links with the subject at hand. You criticise the BBC but take as gospel (if you will forgive the expression) some rumour circulating in a radical newspaper in London?

The Americans do not look as if they are trying to bring justice and equality to Iraq any more. If they ever did. That is up to the Iraqis now. But I am not sure but I think you are going beyond this article and asserting this is happening to hundreds of Iraqi women? What is your source for that? Why, in the absence of evidence, do you believe this?

It makes me soo angry knowing the EVIL these people bring to such lands and then they stand on cosy platforms taking about tolerance and talking down to Muslims. Makes my blood boil
Why do you choose to view this issue in this light? You could interpret this in any number of different ways. You could accept that no one is perfect and that American soldiers are not perfect either. You could accept that there has been mass rape in recent times (Bosnia, Algeria, Sudan) and America is not usually on the side of the rapists. Instead you choose to be offended. Why, come to think of it, do you see this as talking down to Muslims?

Yes i know there are Muslims who may be doing the same thing and i condemn that too BUT by saying that we cant take our anger out because its not fair is complete nonsense. NOTHING in this world is fair YET we must still speak up about evil and condemn it.

TWO wrongs don’t make a right!!!
May I ask where you condemned the rape that may or may not be taking place in Sudan? The world is full of injustice. Even if this story is true, it is the worst injustice in the world at the moment? Nothing is fair so we need to have a reasonable approach. It is not whether the Americans are perfect, but whether they are good enough and better than what was there before. By any reasonable standard I think that is true. Obviously you do not. Why?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-20-2006, 05:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Muslims in general do not have good records when it comes to punishing rapists. It has traditionally been all but impossible to prove in a Sharia court.
Incorrect. I debunked this allegation when you raised it in another thread before. Here is the answer once again:
http://www.islamicboard.com/130000-post18.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/130001-post19.html
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Ninth_Scribe
02-27-2006, 05:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by shanu
Talking abt cutting off, lol i heard a man who punished another man by the cutting method, when he discovered an innocent woman raped. Not a bad idea? actually lol ;D
Yes, but in America it's a slap on the wrist if you ever get it into court.

First offense? Six month continued without finding (means so long as you don't get arrested for anything else for the next six months, the charges disappear).

Ninth Scribe
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HeiGou
02-27-2006, 05:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Incorrect. I debunked this allegation when you raised it in another thread before. Here is the answer once again:
http://www.islamicboard.com/130000-post18.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/130001-post19.html
You and I obviously have very different ideas about what "debunked" means.

If I may quote,

Here is another fatwa on this issue, from the IslamToday.com committee:
Question: Is it really true that in Islam, four witnesses are required to prove a case of rape?

Answer: There is some confusion here. In Islamic criminal law, there are two types of punishment: the prescribed punishment (hadd) and the discretionary punishment (ta`zîr).

Prescribed punishments are those that are imposed by the sacred texts for certain crimes in the presence of certain evidence. When guilt is established by that evidence, it becomes obligatory upon the state to carry out the punishment as a religious duty. The judge does not have the jurisdiction to modify or waive this punishment.

The prescribed punishment for fornication is 100 lashes with a whip and for adultery, it is stoning to death. The evidence required for this punishment to be carried out is the testimony of four eyewitnesses of good character or a personal confession willingly given.

In Islamic Law, a ruler or judge may impose a discretionary punishment (ta`zîr) where no prescribed punishment is given in Islamic Law for a certain crime. Likewise, the ruler may decide to give a stricter punishment than the prescribed punishment.

It could be by imprisonment, whipping and in some cases killing. The Muslim scholars in Saudi Arabia, for instance, have decreed the death penalty for drug smugglers who bring large quantities of drugs into the Islamic society. No punishment for drug smuggling is mentioned in the Qur’ân and Sunnah.

Four witnesses are needed to establish unlawful sexual penetration – whether consensual or otherwise – for the Islamic prescribed punishment of flogging or stoning to death to be carried out.

In the absence of this evidence, the prescribed punishment (hadd) for fornication or adultery cannot be carried out.

However, the judge may use other forms of evidence to establish guilt and impose a discretionary punishment that he deems suitable for the crime.
So to prove rape you need a confession or four adult male witnesses as I said. Failing that a judge may impose a discretionary punishment. But then he may just impose that on the victim as well if he thinks her behaviour is not acceptable. After all it is discretionary.
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mizan_aliashraf
02-27-2006, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
You and I obviously have very different ideas about what "debunked" means.

If I may quote,



So to prove rape you need a confession or four adult male witnesses as I said. Failing that a judge may impose a discretionary punishment. But then he may just impose that on the victim as well if he thinks her behaviour is not acceptable. After all it is discretionary.

If i may ask, i thought this thread was about the happenings in iraq? why have you bought up an issue that is not related to the subject? Rape is a very very serious crime. A crime that carrries a penalty like you have quoted. If you study shari'ah law then you can make decisions on what punishment to prescribe for each case. After all, to be a judge is no mean feat. it takes years of studying, experience and rising through the ranks
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HeiGou
02-27-2006, 05:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mizan_aliashraf
If i may ask, i thought this thread was about the happenings in iraq? why have you bought up an issue that is not related to the subject? Rape is a very very serious crime. A crime that carrries a penalty like you have quoted. If you study shari'ah law then you can make decisions on what punishment to prescribe for each case. After all, to be a judge is no mean feat. it takes years of studying, experience and rising through the ranks
In my defence I have to say it was not me that brought up the issue of rape. And it was more or less related - we were, if I remember correctly - discussing the alleged rape of Iraqi women in Abu Ghraib.

Rape is a serious crime. But you cannot hold up, on the one hand, the near impossibility of finding four adult male witnesses to such a crime, and other the other, the record of Muslim countries in prosecuting rape charges, and argue that Islamic systems of justice have a good track record in this area. As I said Muslim countries are very poor at prosecuting rape. Which is probably one of the reasons that most Muslim women have, traditionally, been more restricted than Islamic law demands.
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mizan_aliashraf
02-27-2006, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
In my defence I have to say it was not me that brought up the issue of rape. And it was more or less related - we were, if I remember correctly - discussing the alleged rape of Iraqi women in Abu Ghraib.

Rape is a serious crime. But you cannot hold up, on the one hand, the near impossibility of finding four adult male witnesses to such a crime, and other the other, the record of Muslim countries in prosecuting rape charges, and argue that Islamic systems of justice have a good track record in this area. As I said Muslim countries are very poor at prosecuting rape. Which is probably one of the reasons that most Muslim women have, traditionally, been more restricted than Islamic law demands.

I understand what you are saying, but just because 'Muslim' countries have a poor record for prosecuting rapists, doesnt mean that Islam has a weak or inferior stance on the whole thing. You cant hold Islam responsible for the acts of a particular country. Rape has, unfortunately, become very widesprea. In the UK, you hear about someone who's been raped every other day.
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HeiGou
02-27-2006, 06:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mizan_aliashraf
I understand what you are saying, but just because 'Muslim' countries have a poor record for prosecuting rapists, doesnt mean that Islam has a weak or inferior stance on the whole thing. You cant hold Islam responsible for the acts of a particular country. Rape has, unfortunately, become very widesprea. In the UK, you hear about someone who's been raped every other day.
I am trying not to say anything about Islam at all but about Muslims. I do not want to argue that Islam is weak. At most I would argue that it shows that my values and your God's values are very different. I do have some criticism for some Muslims who argue that DNA evidence is inadmissible and demand four adult male eye witnesses no matter what the DNA says.

I agree that Islam is not to blame for whatever any particular country does. There is a difference between religion and custom. But the two are also related - religion shapes customs, customs shape the way people see religion. If Islamic law demands four adult male eye witnesses, and Muslim culture puts a lot of pressure of women to be "good" and regards women who are raped as shamed, well, then certain consequences are going to flow. There is no point denying that. It is not a flaw in Islam as even I would accept that God knows best.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-28-2006, 05:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
So to prove rape you need a confession or four adult male witnesses as I said.
No, that is completely incorrect. To apply the Hadd punishment, you would need four witnesses, but rape can be proven with DNA evidence, with circumstantial evidence, anything that normally incriminates a rapist.

Failing that a judge may impose a discretionary punishment.
No, if there is sufficient evidence of any sort to incriminate the rapist, it is the obligation of the Islamic courts to punish them severely.

But then he may just impose that on the victim as well if he thinks her behaviour is not acceptable.
Maybe you were not able to comprehend this part:
A woman will not be punished if there is any reason to believe that she was forced into the act. The least evidence in this regard will be sufficient to save the woman from punishment. Our Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Allah has pardoned my people for the acts they do by mistake, due to forgetfulness, and what they are coerced into doing” [Related by Ibn Mâjah and authenticated by al-Nawawî, Ibn Hajr, and al-Albânî].

Also, it was related by Ibn Abî Shaybah through Târiq b. Shahâb that a woman accused of adultery was taken to Caliph `Umar. The woman pleaded that she was asleep and woke up to find the man over her. `Umar released the woman. [The narration was approved by al-Albâni]. Ibn Qudâmah stated in his book al-Mughnî: “There is no punishment on the woman who was coerced into adultery.” (SOURCE)
The woman cannot be punished. period.

Your claim that rapists go unpunished in the absence of four witnesses according to Islamic law has been refuted.

and Muslim culture puts a lot of pressure of women to be "good"
Islam puts pressure opn everyone to be good.
and regards women who are raped as shamed
What do you mean by 'shamed'? Islam regards women who are raped as having a lofty status in the sight of God for persevering despite the abuse they have been through. If you mean 'shame' in a general sense, then who in the world does not consider rape a shameful act?
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Guli7
03-01-2006, 02:35 AM
rape occurs in all cultures, in all countries.

Europe is worse than America when it comes to sex and media. They show everything on tv and my little cousins who live there know and have seen everything. Here in America there is at least parental control and you have to pay to see that stuff on tv.

I'm not saying America is perfect, goodness knows it isn't especially with George Bush in charge but a lot of other countries are worse when it comes to those kinds of negative things America is known for. Lets not play the blame game.

I hope those soldiers all get their dues but also the authorities of those prisons should get punished as well for allowing these things to occur.
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Guli7
03-01-2006, 02:39 AM
^^I didn't mean anything bad towards European countries.

My cousin says that their tv stations in Switzerland for example don't censor nudity or cursing while our basic cable stations do. You have to pay for extra channels to see that stuff.
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j4763
03-01-2006, 01:36 PM
I'm sure those channels don’t show that kind of stuff before the watershed! Should your cousin be up that late? Shouldn’t your cousin’s guardians/parents not be censoring what they watch? Plus do they not have a choice to turn over/off that channel?
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HeiGou
03-01-2006, 03:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
No, that is completely incorrect. To apply the Hadd punishment, you would need four witnesses, but rape can be proven with DNA evidence, with circumstantial evidence, anything that normally incriminates a rapist.
I will accept that as a reasonable response. The problem with this, though, is that where religion stops culture takes over. The "circumstantial evidence", if it is not laid down in the Quran or the Sunna, will be based on a cultural norm. As I think we would all agree many cultural norms in the Middle East are not friendly to rape victims.

Maybe you were not able to comprehend this part:
A woman will not be punished if there is any reason to believe that she was forced into the act. The least evidence in this regard will be sufficient to save the woman from punishment.
Any reason? The least evidence? Suppose it came down to his words verses hers? Does this count as any reason or the least evidence? In the right circumstances an adult male's opinion is worth two women's. Is this one of those circumstances?

Your claim that rapists go unpunished in the absence of four witnesses according to Islamic law has been refuted.
I do not think that was my claim and no it has not. You have shown me that they may receive a lesser punishment if the judge deems there is sufficient evidence to warrant it.

What do you mean by 'shamed'? Islam regards women who are raped as having a lofty status in the sight of God for persevering despite the abuse they have been through. If you mean 'shame' in a general sense, then who in the world does not consider rape a shameful act?
Shamed in a strictly cultural and non-religious sense.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-01-2006, 07:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I will accept that as a reasonable response. The problem with this, though, is that where religion stops culture takes over. The "circumstantial evidence", if it is not laid down in the Quran or the Sunna, will be based on a cultural norm. As I think we would all agree many cultural norms in the Middle East are not friendly to rape victims.
I don't think this is a cultural problem; rape would have been difficult to prove anywhere in the world before our advancements in technology. I think the difficulties in proving rape in that era were more likely a global problem.

Any reason? The least evidence? Suppose it came down to his words verses hers? Does this count as any reason or the least evidence? In the right circumstances an adult male's opinion is worth two women's. Is this one of those circumstances?
No, if there is enough evidence to suggest that the act was performed, and she claims he raped her and he claims it is consensual, then they aren't going to punish the woman simply because he says it was consensual. If it was, then both of them would likely have kept it a secret.

You have shown me that they may receive a lesser punishment if the judge deems there is sufficient evidence to warrant it.
In the fatwa I linked it says, Likewise, the ruler may decide to give a stricter punishment than the prescribed punishment.. So it is not necessarily a 'lesser' punishment.

Shamed in a strictly cultural and non-religious sense.
What do you mean by 'shamed'? Which culture does not consider it a shame? Please be specific.

Thanks.
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HeiGou
03-01-2006, 07:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I will accept that as a reasonable response. The problem with this, though, is that where religion stops culture takes over. The "circumstantial evidence", if it is not laid down in the Quran or the Sunna, will be based on a cultural norm. As I think we would all agree many cultural norms in the Middle East are not friendly to rape victims.
I don't think this is a cultural problem; rape would have been difficult to prove anywhere in the world before our advancements in technology. I think the difficulties in proving rape in that era were more likely a global problem.
But where religion is silent, culture takes over. What constitutes proof? In some cultures you would make both parties drink poison and see who died. In others you would let 12 jury men decide based on the credibility of the stories. Islam, it seems to me, allows a single man, and always a man, to decide. And he will decide based either on his culture or on analogy with other Quranic precepts. Perhaps that whole "one man or two women" thing?

No, if there is enough evidence to suggest that the act was performed, and she claims he raped her and he claims it is consensual, then they aren't going to punish the woman simply because he says it was consensual. If it was, then both of them would likely have kept it a secret.
But how do we know what the judge would do? Where is the criteria laid down for us to examine? Suppose they were interrupted in whatever they did and the woman cries rape? Suppose that the man said that there was consent but that he jilted her or insulted her and so she was seeking revenge? Rape is a complex issue.

In the fatwa I linked it says, Likewise, the ruler may decide to give a stricter punishment than the prescribed punishment.. So it is not necessarily a 'lesser' punishment.
My error. This makes me worried for Islamic law in so many ways but that is another thread.

What do you mean by 'shamed'? Which culture does not consider it a shame? Please be specific.
In the world there are interpretations of cultural norms that deem a raped women to be shamed and to have brought shame on her family. This tends to lead to bad things. What is the procedure for punishing someone guilty of an honor killing in Islam? Suppose that a Father sends his son to kill his daughter, for whatever reason connected with shame. Who pays the diya to whom?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-01-2006, 10:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
But where religion is silent, culture takes over. What constitutes proof?
I'm not talking about the trial by ordeals etc. I'm speaking about actual proof. The only thing people could do back then, is pretty much listen to testimonies and then decide. And up until only a few decades ago, there were still innocent people being sentenced for crimes including rape, until DNA evidence showed them to be not guilty. So this was a problem that was not restricted to only some cultures, rather it was a global issue.
In others you would let 12 jury men decide based on the credibility of the stories. Islam, it seems to me, allows a single man, and always a man, to decide
There are two points here - first, about there being one individual deciding the case, then this is not completely correct. While an Islamic country does have one presiding judge, he also has an advisory council which helps him sort through the material presented in the case. The Judge ultimately has the final verdict, much like the inquisitorial system, which you have indicated your prefer.

As for the issue of whether it is a man or woman, then there is a difference of opinion. Most scholars hold the opinion that the presiding judge should be male, because their role includes active investigation which entails interacting with other male members in the community, as well as asserting themselves in the courtroom. Nevertheless, some scholars have differed. According to the Jariri Madh-hab, a judge who passes a verdict in a court case is no different from a jurist who gives a religious ruling. Since it is agreed that a woman can perform the latter function, At-Tabari felt that there is no reason why she can't be a judge. The scholars of the Dhahiri Madh-hab also held this view. The Hanafi Madh-hab takes a middle position, deeming it permissable for a woman to act as a judge in all cases other than those requring a hadd (prescribed) punishment.

And he will decide based either on his culture or on analogy with other Quranic precepts.
No. A case can only be decided on the evidence presented.

Suppose they were interrupted in whatever they did and the woman cries rape? Suppose that the man said that there was consent but that he jilted her or insulted her and so she was seeking revenge? Rape is a complex issue.
Yes it is, and that is why it was very difficult to establish in any society before the modern era. As for what the judge would do, the criteria are laid down clearly in the examples from the early Muslims. The example of the woman who came to Umar and said she was raped, for example. She was acquitted.

My error. This makes me worried for Islamic law in so many ways but that is another thread.
This is only if the crime exceeds that for the prescribed punishment.

I'll provide you with an answer to your last question soon, inshaa'Allah.
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