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Turin Turambar
02-18-2006, 04:29 AM
I am a Christian and I would like to participate. Since most of the arguments posted above are not real arguments at all and only pretend to be funny (number 21 for example) why don't we focus on the real arguments? Number 2 for instance is a good argument that most Christians agree with. Muhammad killed and killed many people. Jesus certainly didn't, not even to save his life. Who looks closer to our idea of a merciful God?
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Turin Turambar
02-18-2006, 04:43 AM
Another good one is Number 84:

Certain Islamic States treat women like dirt and kill anybody who is not a Muslim.
I think that Islamic States must reflect Islamic teachings.
Therefore, Islam is false.

Isn't it too much of a coincidence that ALL states who treat women like dirt and kill those who disagree with the official religion are Islamic? Why is it that we never see in the news an "honor killing" in a Christian country? Could it be that "honor killings" and Islam are SOMEHOW related? If some states such as Iran and Saudi Arabia call themselves Islamic every time they can, shouldn't we believe that they reflect at least PART of the Islamic teachings? The only state that calls itself Christian is the Vatican. When was the last time you saw an "honor killing" in the Vatican? Or in fact in any country that doesn't call itself Islamic?
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Turin Turambar
02-18-2006, 06:08 AM
Another good one is number 95:

Islam teaches me to defend myself if someone attacks me.
Jesus told me to turn the other cheek.

Could that be the explanation for why Sunnis and Shias are killing each other in places like Iraq and Pakistan? Perhaps they are following Islam and they feel attacked by the other group, so they defend themselves? And obviously after the "defense" the other group also feels attacked so it defends itself in turn? And they keep the cycle forever?

And could that be the reason why in a place like America several different Christian denominations keep perfect peace among themselves, because they turn the other cheek? If they perceive an insult they forgive instead of seeking revenge?

And that could explain why America is peaceful and rich and why Iraq and Pakistan are violent and poor?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-18-2006, 03:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
I am a Christian and I would like to participate. Since most of the arguments posted above are not real arguments at all and only pretend to be funny (number 21 for example) why don't we focus on the real arguments? Number 2 for instance is a good argument that most Christians agree with. Muhammad killed and killed many people. Jesus certainly didn't, not even to save his life. Who looks closer to our idea of a merciful God?
According to your own logic, Prophet Moses should also not be considered a prophet. Do you believe he is a prophet?

Isn't it too much of a coincidence that ALL states who treat women like dirt and kill those who disagree with the official religion are Islamic?
Not so. Only in the modern age when Muslim countries have degenerated into poor third-world countries, do we find a deviation from Islamic teachings. In the age of the Islamic empire, women took a very active role, such that thousands of Muslim women who were scholars and leaders have been listed in Aisha Bewley's Muslim Women: A Biographical Dictionary.
Could it be that "honor killings" and Islam are SOMEHOW related?
honor killings have nothing to do with Islam:
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_se...&main_cat_id=6

Regards

ps. Welcome to Load-Islam forums! :)
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Idris
02-18-2006, 04:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Another good one is number 95:

Islam teaches me to defend myself if someone attacks me.
Jesus told me to turn the other cheek.

Could that be the explanation for why Sunnis and Shias are killing each other in places like Iraq and Pakistan? Perhaps they are following Islam and they feel attacked by the other group, so they defend themselves? And obviously after the "defense" the other group also feels attacked so it defends itself in turn? And they keep the cycle forever?

And could that be the reason why in a place like America several different Christian denominations keep perfect peace among themselves, because they turn the other cheek? If they perceive an insult they forgive instead of seeking revenge?

And that could explain why America is peaceful and rich and why Iraq and Pakistan are violent and poor?

:sl: you talked about Sunnis and Shias are killing each other but Protestants and Catholics would shed each other's blood in prodigious amounts in national wars and in civil wars. I know my History and The French Wars of Religion: 1562-1598, In March, 1562, an army led by the Duke of Guise attacked a Protestant church service at Vassy in the province of Champagne and slaughtered everybody they could get their hands on: men, women, and children—all of whom were unarmed. Thus began the French Wars of Religion which were to last for almost forty years! and destroy thousands of innocent lives. The Thirty Years War, 1618-1648 The Thirty Years War was, perhaps, the first World War fought in Europe, for nearly every state in Europe became involved in the war in some way or another. The sheer amount of casualties and human destruction made this war the most calamitious and disastrous war of European history before the nineteenth century. ...


Another good one is Number 84:

Certain Islamic States treat women like dirt and kill anybody who is not a Muslim.
I think that Islamic States must reflect Islamic teachings.
Therefore, Islam is false.

A number of Islamic countries claim that they are an Islamic state and that secularism has no place in their society. Some Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia consider secularism to be a great sin. Is there any concept of an Islamic state in the Qur'an? Or in the Hadith literature? Does an Islamic state fit into any classical model? The answer is a categorical no.

I chat a lot with Christian and most of the time it’s them asking questions so am going to ask you some…do you have any Christian States that follow the Christian teachings? And don’t tell me the USA .it’s seems to me that you Christian have soo much love going around that you like chating about Muslims problems but don’t care about your country. :hiding:

There are 105.5 million households in the USA.
5.5 million of these consist of unmarried partnerships, :heated:
Of these, 595,000 consist of same sex partners. :heated:
:w:
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Turin Turambar
02-18-2006, 04:48 PM
To Ansar Al-'Adl and Idris, thanks for your answers. It is very important that we debate because we are dealing with the most important thing in our lives so if one of us is wrong, the sooner he finds the truth the better.

To Ansar Al-'Adl:
1) Yes I do consider Moses a prophet but NOT an example to be imitated today. My only example to be imitated is Jesus. The problem is that Muslims DO consider Muhammad an example to be imitated today. And since his methods were often very violent, Muslims who imitate him get in terrible conflict with the world around them.

2) It might be true that in the past Muslim women occupied those exalted roles, but we cannot turn on the TV and check so we will always have doubts. A Muslim-inspired book will say one thing but the book I have (written by Ibn Warraq, whom I sincerely recommend) says something very different. History is hard to check and prone to biased interpretations. Current realities are much easier to check. Where do we find the women who run companies? Where do we find the women killed in "honor killings"? Again, the answers are on your TV every day.

3) The argument for "honor killings" is similar. If they have nothing to do with Islam, why do we find them only in Islamic countries? Isn't it much of a coincidence? If they were random, shouldn't we find a few of them in every region of the world? Why are they all concentrated in Islamic countries?

I will answer to Idris in my next post. Thanks
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Turin Turambar
02-18-2006, 05:08 PM
My answer to Idris is the following:

First of all, it is great that you know about history. I love history. What you mention about the wars of religion in Europe is absolutely true. The reason why that happened is that in the past we all killed each other for religious and political reasons. We were all very primitive. Only one religion could guide people out of that primitive state so that they could learn to live with each other in peace. That religion was Christianity and the reason is that its founder was a man of peace who never touched a sword. Muhammed lived all his life with a sword in his hand so his followers never dropped it and are still using it....very actively.

About any state that follows Christian teachings, I think that America is actually a great example! This is exactly the free, respectful society that Christians want to live in. You point to same-sex partnerships and things like that. You have to keep in mind that Christianity is a truth of FREEDOM. In a Christian country nobody is forced to live according to Christian teachings. We are all free. You can live a morally wrong life. But in America you CAN live as a veritable saint if you want. In fact the number of people who live according to Christian teachings is much higher than the number of same-sex partnerships...by an order of magnitude.

Once again, a key difference is that Islam is at bottom a set of rules that God (the master) has imposed and his slaves have to obey. Christianity is a truth that brings freedom, given by God (the father) to his children who should embrace it to be happy. You have to choose whether you want to be the slave of a master or the son of a loving father. That is the choice between Islam and Christianity.
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shorouk
02-18-2006, 07:55 PM
these arguements are soooooooooooooooooo stupid:D
they dont make any sense wat so ever.......
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Turin Turambar
02-18-2006, 08:44 PM
Dear shorouk,

Why don't you explain me why my arguments don't make any sense? Thanks.
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Christian_dove
02-18-2006, 08:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Idris
:sl: you talked about Sunnis and Shias are killing each other but Protestants and Catholics would shed each other's blood in prodigious amounts in national wars and in civil wars. I know my History and The French Wars of Religion: 1562-1598, In March, 1562, an army led by the Duke of Guise attacked a Protestant church service at Vassy in the province of Champagne and slaughtered everybody they could get their hands on: men, women, and children—all of whom were unarmed. Thus began the French Wars of Religion which were to last for almost forty years! and destroy thousands of innocent lives. The Thirty Years War, 1618-1648 The Thirty Years War was, perhaps, the first World War fought in Europe, for nearly every state in Europe became involved in the war in some way or another. The sheer amount of casualties and human destruction made this war the most calamitious and disastrous war of European history before the nineteenth century. ...


Another good one is Number 84:

Certain Islamic States treat women like dirt and kill anybody who is not a Muslim.
I think that Islamic States must reflect Islamic teachings.
Therefore, Islam is false.

A number of Islamic countries claim that they are an Islamic state and that secularism has no place in their society. Some Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia consider secularism to be a great sin. Is there any concept of an Islamic state in the Qur'an? Or in the Hadith literature? Does an Islamic state fit into any classical model? The answer is a categorical no.

I chat a lot with Christian and most of the time it’s them asking questions so am going to ask you some…do you have any Christian States that follow the Christian teachings? And don’t tell me the USA .it’s seems to me that you Christian have soo much love going around that you like chating about Muslims problems but don’t care about your country. :hiding:

There are 105.5 million households in the USA.
5.5 million of these consist of unmarried partnerships, :heated:
Of these, 595,000 consist of same sex partners. :heated:
:w:
Norway is considered a christian country, all official church services are payed for and runned by the authorities. There are numeral other ministries that is outside of The Norwegian Church, some of which receive financial support according to the amount of registered members. Muslim ministries also receives this support. We have however decided to split the power to avoid unjustice, we have a gouvernment, but we also have a supreme court, a king (with no real power) and a church. If you wanna hear more about it, (this is boring), here:

The Norwegian legal system is a mixture of customary law, civil law system, and common law traditions; the Supreme Court renders advisory opinions to legislature when asked; accepts compulsory ICJ jurisdiction, with reservations.

The regular courts include the Supreme Court (Høyesterett) with 17 permanent judges and a president, courts of appeal (court of second instance in most cases), city and county courts (court of first instance in most cases), and conciliation councils (court of first instance in petty cases). Judges attached to the regular courts are appointed by the King in council after nomination by the Ministry of Justice.

The special High Court of the Realm (Riksrett) hears impeachment cases against members of the Government, Parliament, or Supreme Court. The High Court of the Realm consists of the Lagting (one-fourth of the Members of Parliament) with the addition of the permanent members of the Supreme Court. The High Court of the Realm generally lost most of its significance after 1884, and this institution has been passive ever since 1927.


I think I would consider Norway to be christian, but ther are debates going on right now regarding wether church and the state should be separated or not.

If you compare our laws with the ten commandments, you will find similarities, they are quite obvious, though. You shall not kill, you shall not steal, etc. We follow most of those things, yes. We are so lawful... The word "law" actually origins from the old norwegian word, lagu.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-18-2006, 10:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
To Ansar Al-'Adl:
1) Yes I do consider Moses a prophet but NOT an example to be imitated today.
In which case you admit that participation in military campaigns has no impact whatsoever on the validity of one's prophethood. Also note that Prophet Moses pbuh was the example for his nation for centuries (the Jews today still consider him the best human being). If something was just then, why is it no longer just today?
My only example to be imitated is Jesus. The problem is that Muslims DO consider Muhammad an example to be imitated today. And since his methods were often very violent, Muslims who imitate him get in terrible conflict with the world around them.
The Prophet Muhammad pbuh never used violence (defined as the unjust use of force) but he used force for protection of society and for establishment of justice and liberation from oppression. If we are to imitate Jesus, then why is there no advanced nation in the world which does not possess a military or police (law enforcement) agency? The necessity of force in certain cases is something that is recognized by all modern scholars.

Since this topic has already been covered in great detail, I may as well refer you to the following answer from MENJ which raises a few questions about Christian claims on Jesus as well:
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archi...lim-viewpoint/

2) It might be true that in the past Muslim women occupied those exalted roles, but we cannot turn on the TV and check so we will always have doubts.
*yawn* Not only have you committed the spotlight fallacy in referencing the prevalent image conveyed in western media, but you also seem to have conveniently forgotten the western colonial powers and influence which destroyed the Islamic empire, divided up its territories and seated dictators in Muslim countries in the place of the Caliph. There is not a single Islamic state today and you're reference to these countries is fallacious since they have become third-world poor destitute and war-torn. The complete absurdity of your claim is as if we were to blame africans for the poor condition of African civilization today!! The reality is that the blame should go on those invading colonial powers who enslaved and subjugated other nations.

A Muslim-inspired book will say one thing but the book I have (written by Ibn Warraq, whom I sincerely recommend) says something very different.
No doubt Ibn Warraq will say something different because he is a known liar (no one even knows who the real person behind this pseudonym is!) and has absolutely no credibility amongst the modern intellectual and objective community of scholars. His anti-islamic drivel has no place amongst objective research.

History is hard to check and prone to biased interpretations.
History is not hard to check when proper references and historical evidences are cited, as done in the book I referred you to.

The argument for "honor killings" is similar. If they have nothing to do with Islam, why do we find them only in Islamic countries?
There is no Islamic country in the world. Please do not confuse Muslim majority countries with Islamic countries. And you should no better than to commit the fallacy of assessing Islamic teachings based on the mistakes of those who claim to follow it. The issue of honor killings is a cultural, not religious, problem.
Isn't it much of a coincidence? If they were random, shouldn't we find a few of them in every region of the world?
They do; you just haven't conducted your research properly. There have been a number of incidents amongst Sikhs, Arab Christians, etc.

Regards
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-19-2006, 12:29 AM
This thread has been split from the thread "One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood"; a more detailed discussion on the arguments involved deserves its own thread.

:w:
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Eric H
02-19-2006, 07:54 AM
Greetings and peace Turin Turambar;
if one of us is wrong, the sooner he finds the truth the better.
It saddens me when we direct our efforts in trying to change others in the quest for ‘truth’

I am reminded of the tactics used by politicians approaching election time, they seem to dedicate a huge amount of effort rubbishing the opposition without really looking at themselves.

Faith is for the individual to seek a relationship with God and our neighbour and this can be daunting at times. I often feel that we should put more effort into trying to change ourselves than we do in trying to change others.

We need to strive for that inner peace in our own hearts, and this comes by seeking justice for all people.

In the spirit of seeking greater interfaith friendships

Eric
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abdul Majid
02-19-2006, 08:03 AM
turin, your talking nonsense
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i_m_tipu
02-19-2006, 09:06 AM
Christian_dove, Eric H, Turin Turambar
Looking to the Nonbelievers world......
their Bisop(countries best Scholar) is a Homosexual (is their Prophet alive today i wonder what he feels)
their r so many many many thing to give example what i should not. As bcoz i simply care for my mouth.

and looking to the believer..........
if u research any simple non rated believer’s daily life.....
oh boys u head can't make u understand that
how can anyone live so Piously
how can anyone fear so much for his wrong doing
how can anyone give so much donation to poor even he is consider as a poor man
how can anyone believe so strongly.....
but u know something
their house is being destroyed, their property is being destroyed, they r being bombed, they r being murdered, they r called the most danger people (my head can't make me understand it)
but again u know something
if u have Realizing head
u will find they r most happiest person in the world....

At the end i just ask u 2 very simple question
why does the god send so many Prophet for the man kind???
why does the god not sending any Prophet now after the Prophet Mohammad???
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abdul Majid
02-19-2006, 09:10 AM
Nice Brother.....

Why Have There Been Prophets To Covey A Message?

Why Isnt There Another Prophet After Mohamed(saw) ..its Been 1400 Years
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Umar001
02-19-2006, 01:46 PM
I really still find it amazin that people say 'look at the islamic country' this must means that becuse they do bad, islam is the source for that.

Even if there is a conection, the viewing of people in order to derive the teaching of a religion or system is so inconsiderate.

And this is the type of arguement brought forward by people?

Well no wonder we are stuck, like chewing gum on the street :p

peace be upon yall
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Eric H
02-19-2006, 01:55 PM
Greetings and peace IsaAbdullah;
And this is the type of arguement brought forward by people?
You must live in hope, not all people are narrow minded.

In the spirit of seeking peace with people of all faiths

Eric
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Umar001
02-19-2006, 03:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace IsaAbdullah;


You must live in hope, not all people are narrow minded.

In the spirit of seeking peace with people of all faiths

Eric

I sure try bro Eric, and I have seen the best of people on this website actually, and in life and I hope we all are guided towards Almighty God

'In the spirit of seeking peace with people of all faiths'
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Turin Turambar
02-19-2006, 05:58 PM
Thanks to all for your answers! And I am very proud that now I have my own thread...;)

To Ansar Al-'Adl:

1) Your example of Moses is very useful. I DO think that what he did was the right thing at that time...but he lived approximately 3,200 years ago. He is not an example for us today anymore. He lived in a barbarous time, among savage peoples who were exterminating each other. Today, and thanks to the advance of Western (Christian) countries we live in a civilized era, when somebody behaving like Moses has no role. And somebody behaving like Muhammed has even less of a role. If you follow the wrong example, you are going to get in trouble. Since Muslims around the world are following the wrong example, they are in trouble every day. Change your model!

2) You say that Muhammad never used violence, defined as the "unjust use of force". But the problem is that the definition of "unjust" that you use is always from the point of view of Muslims. It would be very good for all of you to see things once in a while from the point of view of non-Muslims who are being invaded. For instance, all of you Muslims take pride in the conquests of Umar (a close follower of Muhammad) whose armies invaded Egypt, Syria and Persia (Iran). You think that doesn't qualify as "unjust" use of force because it was the expansion of Islam, and Islam is always right. But what about those who were invaded? What was their impression of Islam? Was that use of violence "unjust" form THEIR point of view? Those who lost their loved ones in the Muslim invasions, aren't they allowed to say that Muhammad is a terrorist and teacher of terrorists?

3) You finally say that the lamentable condition of Muslim countries today is derived from the influence of Western powers. Was that the only influence of Western powers? What about electricity, modern medicine and automobiles? Shouldn't all those gifts from the West offset whatever evil influence it had over the Muslim countries? And what about countries such as Japan, Korea and today China? They were also "oppressed" by western powers but now they are or are becoming leaders in many fields. Why don't we see the same happening in Muslim countries? The answer is simple. Islam KEEPS YOU IN POVERTY AND TYRANNY. It develops a mindset among its followers that makes it impossible for the society to get rich and peaceful. Once again, change you model and enjoy everything modernity has to offer.
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Eric H
02-19-2006, 06:29 PM
Greetings and peace Turin Turambar
It develops a mindset among its followers that makes it impossible for the society to get rich and peaceful. Once again, change you model and enjoy everything modernity has to offer.
If people and nations became rich in a just and fair way, I would say this is desirable.

But the rich nations become richer simply because they have the power to impose unfair trading tariffs on the poor nations. They also grant loans that are a burden to poor countries, and the rich impose conditions for the loans which keep the poor countries in debt.

As to modernity that also comes at a price, promiscuity, drugs, immorality, divorce and children being brought up by single parents almost as a norm.
The answer is simple. Islam KEEPS YOU IN POVERTY AND TYRANNY
Why do you single out the Islamic poor?

Poor people need justice far more than rich people, and yet this is denied to them. They should have the right to minimum wages which in the UK. Is about £4.50 an hour. Yet one billion people in this world live on a dollar a day through no fault of their own, they were simply born in the wrong country.

In the spirit of seeking justice for all people

Eric
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Eric H
02-19-2006, 06:32 PM
Greetings and peace be with you bro. IsaAbdullah
I sure try bro Eric, and I have seen the best of people on this website actually, and in life and I hope we all are guided towards Almighty God
Amen to that.

And may God continue to bless your efforts

Eric
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Turin Turambar
02-19-2006, 07:02 PM
I have two other things to say to Ansar Al-'Adl regarding his answers to my original post:

1) Regarding Ibn Warraq, I have read his book and it surely does look like a well-written and well-researched book. I don't see anything in that book that would make me think that he is a liar. Have you read it? I would recommend you to do so. If Islam is really true it will be able to resist his arguments in your mind. Why would he lie just to put his life at risk? What is he getting from that? The same goes for the fact that he publishes using a pseudonym. Who wouldn't today? When you see cartoonists hiding for their lives, who would use his real name in such a book? That doesn't make him a liar. On the contrary I think of him as a hero of our times. Read his book and encourage others to read it. The truth will make us all free.

2) Regarding your assertion that today there are no Islamic countries so we don't really have an example of how Islam would look like if it was implemented. How is it possible that a country like Saudi Arabia, that says "the Quran is our constitution" doesn't qualify as an Islamic country? What can be more Islamic than that? Isn't perhaps the problem that you want to see an ideal country before you consider it to be Islamic? And all examples that don't fit into that ideal would be discarded by you by saying "this is not a real Islamic country"?

The problem if we take that line of reasoning is that as far as we know there has never been an Islamic country. The ideal Islamic Caliphate of the Middle Ages for which may Muslims are still longing was surely very similar to the Saudi Arabia of today. In many respects it was much worse. For instance it didn't have any modern technology, because that was a later creation of Christian countries, it didn't have the few avenues modern Saudis have to learn about the world, such as foreign movies, magazines, etc. Slavery was widely practiced.

If you want to see how does the "ideal Islamic state" look like, take a look at any Muslim country of today. It never was and it never will be more ideal that that.
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azim
02-19-2006, 07:43 PM
1) Your example of Moses is very useful. I DO think that what he did was the right thing at that time...but he lived approximately 3,200 years ago. He is not an example for us today anymore. He lived in a barbarous time, among savage peoples who were exterminating each other. Today, and thanks to the advance of Western (Christian) countries we live in a civilized era, when somebody behaving like Moses has no role. And somebody behaving like Muhammed has even less of a role. If you follow the wrong example, you are going to get in trouble. Since Muslims around the world are following the wrong example, they are in trouble every day. Change your model!
That definately takes the most narrowed minded and self-centered view of the world I've ever seen. Yes, Western Countries are developed and living quite peacefully - why, because of the way they raped the wealth of other countries. Most countries live in dark times and people still live savagely. All because it may not be your people suffering and your people oppressed doesn't mean the whole world is fine.

2) You say that Muhammad never used violence, defined as the "unjust use of force". But the problem is that the definition of "unjust" that you use is always from the point of view of Muslims. It would be very good for all of you to see things once in a while from the point of view of non-Muslims who are being invaded. For instance, all of you Muslims take pride in the conquests of Umar (a close follower of Muhammad) whose armies invaded Egypt, Syria and Persia (Iran). You think that doesn't qualify as "unjust" use of force because it was the expansion of Islam, and Islam is always right. But what about those who were invaded? What was their impression of Islam? Was that use of violence "unjust" form THEIR point of view? Those who lost their loved ones in the Muslim invasions, aren't they allowed to say that Muhammad is a terrorist and teacher of terrorists?
Islam never fought nations but fought only despotic authorities. Islamic war was one of liberation and not of compulsion. Islam granted liberated people the freedom to decide their religion. Indeed the Quran was the first to denounce the whole notion of forced religion, insisting that when given the oppurtunity to be seen in its own light, truth would always be its own strongest selling point: Allah says:

"There is no compulsion in religion - truth stands distinct from error..." (2:256)

It was ensure true freedom, so that people could be in a real position to appreciate the truth of Islam for themselves, that Muslims fought those who would suppress the greatest right of every human being: having access to the truth from their Lord. But as that truth has to be recognised by the individual and accepted willingly in order to become his or her faith, no true faith could condone the use of force to 'convert' people against their will. (Although we have seen this done several time in Christiannity - in Britain, the Protestant and Catholic upheavals, in Spain, during the crusades in the Middle East and even in modern day India and Africa, so called 'rice Christians' who are offered food by missionaries in exchange for their conversion to Christiannity). In Islamic law, anyone who complained being forced to become Muslim would be allowed to safely remain on their former religion as their conversion would be deemed invalid. So, Islam itself makes the whole concept of spreading by the sword impossible!

De Lacy O'Leary (a real scholar, as opposed to Ibn Wariq) said: -

"History makes it clear, however, that the legend of the fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated."

What makes this myth all the more amazing is that it should have been propounded by those whoe religious history is so stained by blood. "Muslims point to the long centuries during which in India, Spain and the Near East, Christians, Jews and Hindus lived quietly and in freedom under Muslim rule. Even under the worst caliphs, Christians and Jews held positions of influence and in general retained their religious freedom. The Christians, not Muslims, we are reminded, expelled the Jews in the fifteenth century from Spain while Muslims conquered what is now Turkey. Every Muslim was driven from Spain, or put to the sword, or forced to convert, whereas the seat of the Eastern Orthodox Church remains in Istanbul to this day. Indeed, if comparisions are the issue, Muslims consider Christianity's record to be the darker of the two. Who instituded the inquistion, invented the rack and stake as instruments of religion, and plunged Europe into its devestating wars of religion?

- Taken from Islam FAQ published by Fisabilillah (www.fisabilillah.org).

3) You finally say that the lamentable condition of Muslim countries today is derived from the influence of Western powers. Was that the only influence of Western powers? What about electricity, modern medicine and automobiles? Shouldn't all those gifts from the West offset whatever evil influence it had over the Muslim countries? And what about countries such as Japan, Korea and today China? They were also "oppressed" by western powers but now they are or are becoming leaders in many fields. Why don't we see the same happening in Muslim countries? The answer is simple. Islam KEEPS YOU IN POVERTY AND TYRANNY. It develops a mindset among its followers that makes it impossible for the society to get rich and peaceful. Once again, change you model and enjoy everything modernity has to offer.
Perhaps the reason is that Islam asks for wealth for all - rather than riches for the few. I remind you that in America there is still severe poverty, simple because the poor are immigrants, black or of hispanic origin, does not negate. Britain and other European countries are much better as far as nationwide poverty goes - but that lies not in Christiannity, or white supriority. Rather it is the Welfare State that demands equality for all. The Welfare State that was created 1400 years ago by Abu Bakr, based on the teaching of the Greatest Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

You see the world in a very one-dimension and narrow focus. I hope you will read the books of history (written by secular scholars to ensure there is no religious bias on either side) and find out the truth, rather than relying on your assumptions of what the world is like from watching TV.

And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allah, lest they insult Allah wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have madefairseeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall then inform them of all that they used to do. 6:108

This verse just came to mind.

Peace.
Reply

Eric H
02-19-2006, 11:23 PM
Greetings and peace be with you azim,

Western Countries are developed and living quite peacefully - why, because of the way they raped the wealth of other countries
I have to agree with you, a great part of the British Empire was founded on piracy, slavery and taking advantage of weaker nations.

Some years ago the comedian Eddy Izzard summed up empire building with the following joke.

A British ship landed in India for the first time, on landing the captain stuck the British flag into the ground and claimed the land for Britain.

Some natives came along and the captain said what are you doing on British soil?

The natives replied this is India, we have always lived here.

The captain said were is your flag?

The natives said we do not have a flag.

The captain replied that proves my point, this is a British flag planted in the earth, so we must be on British territory.

If the joke was not based on a certain amount of truth it would be funny.

When we stand before God how are we going to justify our own good fortune living in a country of wealth, when the majority of the world is near to starvation?

How can we afford to be aloof because of good fortune?

In the spirit of seeking justice for all God’s creation

Eric
Reply

Turin Turambar
02-20-2006, 02:13 AM
To azim:

I am afraid you made some mistakes:

1) You say that Western countries are developed because they stole the wealth of other countries. That is simply not true. You might be referring to the countries that had colonial empires, such as Britain. But what wealth did Denmark steal? What colonies did Switzerland conquer? What about Japan? China is becoming richer and more powerful every day, what wealth are the Chinese stealing and from whom?

No, azim, the truth is that countries become more prosperous when they develop the RIGHT MINDSET and today most countries already have or are adopting the right mindset. The big glaring exception are the Muslim countries and it is easy to understand why. The rest of the world is creating scientists and businessmen but the Muslim countries are creating "warriors for Allah". As long as they do the same they will remain poor and underdeveloped.

2) You say that "Islam granted liberated people the freedom to decide their religion". What about anybody today in Saudi Arabia or Iran who wants to follow Christianity? Where is his "freedom to decide"? The day we see people in Muslim countries freely deciding what religion to follow will be the day when we will believe in your "freedom to decide".

3) Finally you say that "Islam asks for wealth for all rather than riches for the few". That must be a different Islam than the Islam practiced by the princes in Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf states. I don't see them rushing to distribute their oil wealth among the rest of the Muslims. And please don't tell me that "this is not real Islam". How can we believe in the Islam practiced centuries ago being so different from the Islam practiced today by people who swear day and night that they are following your religion in every little detail?

No azim, I am sorry but Abu Bakr wasn't any better than the avarage Saudi prince of today. The main reason is that they both follow the same prophet.
Reply

abdul Majid
02-20-2006, 02:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
To azim:

I am afraid you made some mistakes:

1.No, azim, the truth is that countries become more prosperous when they develop the RIGHT MINDSET and today most countries already have or are adopting the right mindset. The big glaring exception are the Muslim countries and it is easy to understand why. The rest of the world is creating scientists and businessmen but the Muslim countries are creating "warriors for Allah". As long as they do the same they will remain poor and underdeveloped.


3) Finally you say that "Islam asks for wealth for all rather than riches for the few". That must be a different Islam than the Islam practiced by the princes in Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf states. I don't see them rushing to distribute their oil wealth among the rest of the Muslims. And please don't tell me that "this is not real Islam". How can we believe in the Islam practiced centuries ago being so different from the Islam practiced today by people who swear day and night that they are following your religion in every little detail?

No azim, I am sorry but Abu Bakr wasn't any better than the avarage Saudi prince of today. The main reason is that they both follow the same prophet.
1. THATS OBSERD... OBVIOUSLY THATS YOUR POINT OF VIEW, NO FACTS TO BACK THAT UP, MUSLIMS HAVE MANY DOCTORS, LAWYERS AND SO FORTH..

2.THEY DO ACTUALLY DISTRUPUTE WEALTH, AND GIVE TO THE POOR , WHO HAS TOLD YOU DIFFERENT??

AND IF SOME BODY DOESNT DO WHAT THEY SHOULD , SINCE WHEN DOES THAT REPRESENT THE RELIGON OF ISLAM ITS SELF????

YOU ACTIONS ARE YOUR OWN ONES...WE ARE FOLOWING THE "SAME ISLAM"....SINCE 1400 YEARS AGO, THANK GOD, AND OUR SOURCES ARE STILL INTACT THANK GOD..
Reply

songinwind
02-20-2006, 02:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by izmi
Among monotheist religions you find other prophets after Muhammad, for example the Bahai Bab or Mormon Joseph Smith.



One question:) ....are you saying that Bahai Bab or Mormon Joseph Smith.(jim jones) are prophets????:? Please show proof :)
Reply

abdul Majid
02-20-2006, 02:45 AM
Lol
Reply

HAPPYTIME
02-20-2006, 02:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
1. THATS OBSERD... OBVIOUSLY THATS YOUR POINT OF VIEW, NO FACTS TO BACK THAT UP, MUSLIMS HAVE MANY DOCTORS, LAWYERS AND SO FORTH..

2.THEY DO ACTUALLY DISTRUPUTE WEALTH, AND GIVE TO THE POOR , WHO HAS TOLD YOU DIFFERENT??

AND IF SOME BODY DOESNT DO WHAT THEY SHOULD , SINCE WHEN DOES THAT REPRESENT THE RELIGON OF ISLAM ITS SELF????

YOU ACTIONS ARE YOUR OWN ONES...WE ARE FOLOWING THE "SAME ISLAM"....SINCE 1400 YEARS AGO, THANK GOD, AND OUR SOURCES ARE STILL INTACT THANK GOD..

I agree.
Reply

Takumi
02-20-2006, 02:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
To azim:

3) Finally you say that "Islam asks for wealth for all rather than riches for the few". That must be a different Islam than the Islam practiced by the princes in Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf states. I don't see them rushing to distribute their oil wealth among the rest of the Muslims. And please don't tell me that "this is not real Islam". How can we believe in the Islam practiced centuries ago being so different from the Islam practiced today by people who swear day and night that they are following your religion in every little detail?

No azim, I am sorry but Abu Bakr wasn't any better than the avarage Saudi prince of today. The main reason is that they both follow the same prophet.
And tell me, do I define Catholicism through the eyes of a pedophile priest? Do they follow Jesus? If I take your logic, than I can rigthly say that Catholicism advocates pedophilia and it has been practiced widely. So, was Jesus, Paul, Mark and the other apostles pedophiles wearing masks?

or, Christianity through pastors who swindled money? from their congregation?


or, Judaism through Isaac Mizrahi? [who was proud of what he did during the Golden Globes]

Your arguments are typical of those who attack Islam based on the PRACTICE of muslims. They don't carry any weight at all to qualify as an intelligent and smart discussion.

If you want to talk about Islam, tell us what's wrong with our CORE beliefs not the practice of muslims. Because if you dwell with the latter, let me assure you, I can bring tons of practices of Christians, Catholics, Baptists, Episcopalians, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and all the other plethora of denomination that you have out there, to discredit Christianity.
Reply

abdul Majid
02-20-2006, 02:57 AM
Lol
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-20-2006, 03:00 AM
Hello Turin Turambar,
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
I DO think that what he did was the right thing at that time...but he lived approximately 3,200 years ago.
Can you show me an action that he did which was right then but wouldn't be right today?
He is not an example for us today anymore. He lived in a barbarous time, among savage peoples who were exterminating each other.
We live in a barbarous time. We live in a time when the so-called civilized nations of the world utilize all their technological capabilities for the destruction and subjugation of human beings around the world. Civilization is not a measure of a nation's scientific or technological advancements, but their adherence to a higher standard of morality and humanity.
Today, and thanks to the advance of Western (Christian) countries we live in a civilized era
The western nations which ravaged the world in their colonial rampage? Your attempt to credit them as christian is most amusing. The seperation of church and state in the west is well known to any educated individual. The western nations are now governed through secular laws, not biblical.
And somebody behaving like Muhammed has even less of a role.
You know nothing about who Muhammad was. I suggest you educate yourself:
http://www.islamonline.net/English/I...nd/index.shtml
Since Muslims around the world are following the wrong example, they are in trouble every day.
Muslims around the world are being butchered.

2) You say that Muhammad never used violence, defined as the "unjust use of force". But the problem is that the definition of "unjust" that you use is always from the point of view of Muslims.
Not so! Shall we bring out the pages of quotes from non-muslim historians?

Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History,' 1840
"The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only."
"A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the world’s Maker had ordered so."

A. S. Tritton in 'Islam,' 1951
The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false.

De Lacy O'Leary in 'Islam at the Crossroads,' London, 1923.
History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.

Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823
The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab.

Edward Gibbon and Simon Oakley in ‘History of the Saracen Empire,’ London, 1870
"The greatest success of Mohammad’s life was effected by sheer moral force."
“It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran....The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. ‘I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God’ is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honours of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion.”

Reverend Bosworth Smith in 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism,' London, 1874.
"Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life."
"In Mohammadanism every thing is different here. Instead of the shadowy and the mysterious, we have history....We know of the external history of Muhammad....while for his internal history after his mission had been proclaimed, we have a book absolutely unique in its origin, in its preservation....on the Substantial authority of which no one has ever been able to cast a serious doubt."

Edward Montet, 'La Propagande Chretienne et ses Adversaries Musulmans,' Paris 1890. (Also in T.W. Arnold in 'The Preaching of Islam,' London 1913.)
"Islam is a religion that is essentially rationalistic in the widest sense of this term considered etymologically and historically....the teachings of the Prophet, the Qur'an has invariably kept its place as the fundamental starting point, and the dogma of unity of God has always been proclaimed therein with a grandeur a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of sure conviction, which it is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam....A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and consequently so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvellous power of winning its way into the consciences of men."

Alphonse de LaMartaine in 'Historie de la Turquie,' Paris, 1854.
"Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, a more sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman; to subvert superstitions which had been imposed between man and his Creator, to render God unto man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had in the conception as well as in the execution of such a great design, no other instrument than himself and no other aid except a handful of men living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, because in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, in faith and in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's name, Persia Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous islands of the Mediterranean Sea, Spain, and part of Gaul.

"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls.

"On the basis of a Book, every letter which has become law, he created a spiritual nationality which blend together peoples of every tongue and race. He has left the indelible characteristic of this Muslim nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the conquest of one-third the earth to the dogma was his miracle; or rather it was not the miracle of man but that of reason.

"The idea of the unity of God, proclaimed amidst the exhaustion of the fabulous theogonies, was in itself such a miracle that upon it's utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of idols and set on fire one-third of the world. His life, his meditations, his heroic revelings against the superstitions of his country, and his boldness in defying the furies of idolatry, his firmness in enduring them for fifteen years in Mecca, his acceptance of the role of public scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow countrymen... This dogma was twofold the unity of God and the immateriality of God: the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

"Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"

Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924.
I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.

Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.
"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."
“I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savoir of Humanity."

"I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”

Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,' New York, 1978.
My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.

Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe'
Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God.

Arthur Glyn Leonard in 'Islam, Her Moral and Spiritual Values'
It was the genius of Muhammad, the spirit that he breathed into the Arabs through the soul of Islam that exalted them. That raised them out of the lethargy and low level of tribal stagnation up to the high watermark of national unity and empire. It was in the sublimity of Muhammad's deism, the simplicity, the sobriety and purity it inculcated the fidelity of its founder to his own tenets, that acted on their moral and intellectual fiber with all the magnetism of true inspiration.

Philip K. Hitti in 'History of the Arabs'
Within a brief span of mortal life, Muhammad called forth of unpromising material, a nation, never welded before; in a country that was hitherto but a geographical expression he established a religion which in vast areas suppressed Christianity and Judaism, and laid the basis of an empire that was soon to embrace within its far flung boundaries the fairest provinces the then civilized world.

Rodwell in the Preface to his translation of the Holy Qur'an
Mohammad's career is a wonderful instance of the force and life that resides in him who possesses an intense faith in God and in the unseen world. He will always be regarded as one of those who have had that influence over the faith, morals and whole earthly life of their fellow men, which none but a really great man ever did, or can exercise; and whose efforts to propagate a great verity will prosper.

W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953.
His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.... Thus, not merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with difficulty.

D. G. Hogarth in 'Arabia'
Serious or trivial, his daily behaviour has instituted a canon which millions observe this day with conscious memory. No one regarded by any section of the human race as Perfect Man has ever been imitated so minutely. The conduct of the founder of Christianity has not governed the ordinary life of his followers. Moreover, no founder of a religion has left on so solitary an eminence as the Muslim apostle.

Washington Irving 'Mahomet and His Successors'
He was sober and abstemious in his diet and a rigorous observer of fasts. He indulged in no magnificence of apparel, the ostentation of a petty mind; neither was his simplicity in dress affected but a result of real disregard for distinction from so trivial a source.
In his private dealings he was just. He treated friends and strangers, the rich and poor, the powerful and weak, with equity, and was beloved by the common people for the affability with which he received them, and listened to their complaints.

His military triumphs awakened no pride nor vain glory, as they would have done had they been effected for selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the same simplicity of manners and appearance as in the days of his adversity. So far from affecting a regal state, he was displeased if, on entering a room, any unusual testimonials of respect were shown to him. If he aimed at a universal dominion, it was the dominion of faith; as to the temporal rule which grew up in his hands, as he used it without ostentation, so he took no step to perpetuate it in his family.

James Michener in ‘Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,’ Reader’s Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70.
"No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur’an is explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience."
“Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God’s word sensing his own inadequacy. But the Angel commanded ‘Read’. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God"."

“In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred and rumours of God 's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, ‘An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being'."

“At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: ‘If there are any among you who worshiped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you Worshiped, He lives for ever'.”

Lawrence E. Browne in ‘The Prospects of Islam,’ 1944
Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword.

K. S. Ramakrishna Rao in 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989
My problem to write this monograph is easier, because we are not generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of Islam. The theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that “there is no compulsion in religion” is well known.
I can keep on quoting more and more non-muslim historians, but there is no point when someone is narrow-minded and doesn't want to learn.

For instance, all of you Muslims take pride in the conquests of Umar (a close follower of Muhammad) whose armies invaded Egypt, Syria and Persia (Iran).
Do you know who initiated the agression here? It seems you are not so well acquainted with historical events. The Shah of Persia sent his men to arrest and execute the Prophet Muhammad and the Roman Governate in Ghassan killed one of the Prophet's diplomats. Both are open acts of war. The persian and roman empires sought to crush the new Islamic empire, but their tyrannical rule failed.

Was that use of violence "unjust" form THEIR point of view?
Let's find out! Once again, from Non-Muslim historians....
Quotations regarding the history of Islam:

“The Christian World came to wage crusades against Muslims but eventually knelt before them to gain knowledge. They were spellbound to see that Muslims were owners of a culture that was far superior to their own. The Dark Ages of Europe were illuminated by nothing but the beacon of Muslim Civilization.”
Author :F.J.C Hearushaw
Book Reference :The Science of History

"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated."
Author :
De Lacy O'Leary
Book Reference :
ISLAM AT THE CROSSROADS, London, 1923, p. 8

“The Renaissance of Europe did not take place in the 15th century. Rather it began when Europe learned from the culture of the Arabs. The cradle of European awakening is not Italy. It is the Muslim Spain.”
Author :
Robert Briffault
Book Reference :
The Making Of Mankind

Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword.
Author :
Lawrence E. Browne
Book Reference :
‘The Prospects of Islam,’ 1944


Despite the growth of antagonism, Moslem (Muslim) rulers seldom made their Christian subjects suffer for the Crusades. When the Saracens finally resumed the full control of Palestine the Christians were given their former status as dhimmis. The Coptic Church, too had little cause for complaint under Saladin's (Salahuddin) strong government, and during the time of the earlier Mameluke sultans who succeeded him the Copts experienced more enlightened justice than they had hitherto known. The only effect of the Crusaders upon Egyptian Christians was to keep them for a while from pilgrimage to Jerusalem, for as long as the Frank were in charge heretics were forbidden access to the shrines. Not until the Moslem victories could they enjoy their rights as Christians.
Author :
James Addison
Book Reference :
'The Christian Approach to the Moslem,' p. 35

The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false.
Author :
A. S. Tritton
Book Reference :
in 'Islam,' 1951

No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur’an is explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience.

Author :
James Michener
Book Reference :
‘Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,’ Reader’s Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70

My problem to write this monograph is easier, because we are not generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of Islam. The theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that “there is no compulsion in religion” is well known.
Author :
K. S. Ramakrishna Rao
Book Reference :
'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989

When Pococke inquired of Grotius, where the proof was of that story of the pigeon, trained to pick peas from Mahomet's (Muhammad's) ear, and pass for an angel dictating to him? Grotius answered that there was no proof!..
Author :
Thomas Carlyle
Book Reference :
‘Heroes, Hero Worship, and the Heroic in History,’ Lecture 2, Friday, 8th May 1840

A greater number of God's creatures believe in Mahomet's word at this hour than in any other word whatever. Are we to suppose that it was a miserable piece of spiritual legerdemain, this which so many creatures of the almighty have lived by and died by?...
Author :
Thomas Carlyle
Book Reference :
‘Heroes, Hero Worship, and the Heroic in History,’ Lecture 2, Friday, 8th May 1840

“A rugged, strife-torn and mountaineering people...were suddenly turned into an indomitable Arab force, which achieved a series of splendid victories unparalleled in the history of nations, for in the short space of ninety years that mighty range of Saracenic (i.e. Muslim) conquest embraced a wider extent of territory than Rome had mastered in the course of eight hundred.”
Author :
Simon Ockley
Book Reference :
in 'History of the Saracens'

We have never heard about any attempt to compel Non-Muslim parties to adopt Islam or about any organized persecution aiming at exterminating Christianity. If the Caliphs had chosen one of these plans, they would have wiped out Christianity as easily as what happened to Islam during the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella in Spain; by the same method which Louis XIV followed to make Protestantism a creed whose followers were to be sentenced to death; or with the same ease of keeping the Jews away from Britain for a period of three hundred fifty years.
Author :
Thomas Arnold
Book Reference :
in 'The Call to Islam.'

This is why the God of vengeance, who alone is all-powerful, and changes the empire of mortals as He will, giving it to whomsoever He will, and uplifting the humble beholding the wickedness of the Romans who throughout their dominions, cruelly plundered our churches and our monasteries and condemned us without pity, brought from the region of the south the sons of Ishmael, to deliver us through them from the hands of the Romans. And if in truth we have suffered some loss, because the Catholic churches, that had been taken away from us and given to the Chalcedonians, remained in their possession; for when the cities submitted to the Arabs, they assigned to each denomination the churches which they found it to be in possession of (and at that time the great churches of Emessa and that of Harran had been taken away from us); nevertheless it was no slight advantage for us to be delivered from the cruelty of the Romans, their wickedness, their wrath and cruel zeal against us, and to find ourselves at people. (Michael the Elder, Jacobite Patriarch of Antioch wrote this text in the latter part of the twelfth century, after five centuries of Muslim rule in that region.)
Author :
Michael the Elder (Great)
Book Reference :
'Michael the Elder, Chronique de Michael Syrien, Patriarche Jacobite d’ Antioche,' J.B. Chabot, Editor, Vol. II, Paris, 1901

Despite the growth of antagonism, Moslem (Muslim) rulers seldom made their Christian subjects suffer for the Crusades. When the Saracens finally resumed the full control of Palestine the Christians were given their former status as dhimmis. The Coptic Church, too had little cause for complaint under Saladin's (Salahuddin) strong government, and during the time of the earlier Mameluke sultans who succeeded him the Copts experienced more enlightened justice than they had hitherto known. The only effect of the Crusaders upon Egyptian Christians was to keep them for a while from pilgrimage to Jerusalem, for as long as the Frank were in charge heretics were forbidden access to the shrines. Not until the Moslem victories could they enjoy their rights as Christians.[i]
Author :
James Addison
Book Reference :
'The Christian Approach to the Moslem,' p. 35
3) You finally say that the lamentable condition of Muslim countries today is derived from the influence of Western powers. Was that the only influence of Western powers?
That is certainly the only influence that they carried over to the Muslim countries. Were the colonial powers technologically advanced? Yes! What did they use their powers for? To aid them in their mindless subjugation and destruction of all other nations around the world. If you think Islam was so bad, why was the Islamic empire the leading civilization for several centuries? Why do you only judge Islam after the savage nations of the world ravaged and destroyed the Muslim countries?

Please, educate yourself:
http://www.1001inventions.com/index....tSectionID=309
http://muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm

Discover 1000 years of missing history.

And what about countries such as Japan, Korea and today China? They were also "oppressed" by western powers but now they are or are becoming leaders in many fields.
Wrong. When was China a colony of Britain? When were Japanese enslaved?

And why do you only compare Muslim countries after the fall of the Islamic empire??

Islam KEEPS YOU IN POVERTY AND TYRANNY.
Then how did Islam make the world greatest civilization for over a thousand years??

format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
1) Regarding Ibn Warraq, I have read his book and it surely does look like a well-written and well-researched book.
I don't care what your personal opinion about someone who's name is not even known. He has no standing amongst objective historians and researchers. He has already been refuted by Dr. Jeremiah D. McAuliffe Phd and many other Muslims.

If Islam is really true it will be able to resist his arguments in your mind.
It has not only resisted but refuted his arugments. As for putting his lfie at risk, he has done no such thing. He hides behind a pseudonym and we don't even know if his formal education extends past elementary school. Whatever the case, his ignorance concerning Islam is clearly manifest, and he has been soundly corrected by many Muslims including Dr. McAuliffe, Dr. Al-Azami, Dr. Philips etc.

On the contrary I think of him as a hero of our times.
Anyone who propagates hatred towards any human being is a criminal, and the fact that you consider hatred heroic, sickens me.

Regarding your assertion that today there are no Islamic countries so we don't really have an example of how Islam would look like if it was implemented. How is it possible that a country like Saudi Arabia, that says "the Quran is our constitution" doesn't qualify as an Islamic country?
Where is the Khalifa of Saudi Arabia? Even the Muftis of Saudi Arabia have said that there is no Islamic state in the world.

In many respects it was much worse. For instance it didn't have any modern technology
I'll excuse you for your ignorance once again:
http://www.muslimheritage.com/Default.aspx

Slavery was widely practiced.
And again:
http://www.islamicboard.com/179752-post85.html

If you want to debate me on these topics clearly you'll have to educate yourself first. And don't think I didn't see that stunt you tried to pull - you failed to comment entirely on the refutation I gave you from Bismika Allahuma.org. Don't skip it again. Here it is:
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archi...lim-viewpoint/

Regards
Reply

abdul Majid
02-20-2006, 03:12 AM
Wow Well That Was Well Said And Well Writen...jazakallahkhair Ahki
Reply

Eric H
02-20-2006, 05:18 AM
Greetings and peace be with you all,

Maybe now is the time to take a few moments to reflect on our feelings that we have for each other.

Now is the time to pray for each other,

Lord you created each and everyone of us,
lord you are merciful and loving,
lord help us to love those whom we consider to be different to ourselves,
lord open our hearts so that we may strive to love each other as we love ourselves.
lord help us to love each other in the same way as you love each one of us.

May the blessings of our God rest with each one of us.

Eric
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abdul Majid
02-20-2006, 05:27 AM
amen
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Turin Turambar
02-20-2006, 07:21 AM
Dear Ansar Al-'Adl:

Your post is too long! You make so many points that I will have to choose a few to address. That doesn't mean that I don't have answers for the rest. It is only that I will have to catch my breath before writing again...;) In any case it is illuminating to read what you write and I say that seriously.

I will go for just one argument tonight:

You mention A LOT of people who have favorable opinions of Islam. I am sure you are right in your quotations. But that is not really the point. Your list reminded me of that little trick that somebody else was playing in another thread by saying that the proportion between the number of times the word "land" and the word "sea" are mentioned in the Quran is exactly the proportion in which we find land and sea in the world, and implying from that that the Quran must be the true word of God. It doesn't work with anybody who is a little familiar with logic, you see, because it is obvious that you are only using that argument after you have carefully checked that it will work in your favor. In your case, what you did was to mention everybody who has a favorable opinion of Islam but you failed to mention that the number of writers or thinkers in the West with an unfavorable opinion of Islam is much larger. Otherwise we would all be Muslims by now and that is clearly not the case. In fact the list of writers and thinkers with favorable opinions of Communism was much longer than yours (please don't try to post even more names to catch up....) and that didn't make Communism right. It was always wrong, it is only that it fooled many people for a long time. And another doctrine, the one we are discussing here, has also fooled many people for a long time but that doesn't make it right. I think it is also wrong.

For your trick to have real convincing power you would need to begin with a list created in some objective way. Not "the list of everybody who has said anything favorable to Islam" like you did, but something like "the list of the 100 greatest writers in France" or "the list of the 100 greatests scientists in Britain". If you show me that on one of THOSE lists the number of people who support Islam is greater than the number of people who don't, then I would begin to consider your argument seriously.

The fallacy of your argument is actually clarified by no other that Ibn Warraq, of all people! He also mentions Thomas Carlyle in the first chapter of his book and he says that many Muslims make the mistake of believing he is a "Muslim" of sorts. In fact Carlyle said very clearly that the Quran is chaotic, full of unnecessary repetitions and clearly not a work of divine inspiration. So you cannot have it both ways, use Carlyle as a proof in favor of Islam because of what he said in the first page but ignore completely what he says in the second. Perhaps you should take a look at what Ibn Warraq has to say after all, at least in order to get closer to Carlyle's real thought on the subject of Islam.

By the way, I choose Carlyle because he is one of the names in your list that I recognized but I can say almost the same about others, such a Gibbon. But in any case I cannot begin to compete with you in erudition...;)
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-20-2006, 08:39 PM
Hi Turin,
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
In your case, what you did was to mention everybody who has a favorable opinion of Islam but you failed to mention that the number of writers or thinkers in the West with an unfavorable opinion of Islam is much larger.
I gave you a list of educated non-muslim scholars or historians who testified to some basic historical facts, such as the nobility of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh or the historical spread of Islam.

Your list reminded me of that little trick that somebody else was playing in another thread by saying that the proportion between the number of times the word "land" and the word "sea" are mentioned in the Quran is exactly the proportion in which we find land and sea in the world, and implying from that that the Quran must be the true word of God. It doesn't work with anybody who is a little familiar with logic, you see, because it is obvious that you are only using that argument after you have carefully checked that it will work in your favor.
Since you've raised the topic of numerical miracles, why not answer the point completely - how is it possible that the author of the Qur'an could have used all these words only an exact number of times eg.
http://www.islamicboard.com/170015-post7.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/171261-post12.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/172587-post14.html

If you show me that on one of THOSE lists the number of people who support Islam is greater than the number of people who don't, then I would begin to consider your argument seriously.
Unless we are examining Islamic scholars, then the argument is the logical fallacy of appeal to authority. I never said Islam was true because so-and-so said so or that Prophet Muhammad pbuh was right because so-and-so said so. You asked for the views of non-muslim historians and I provided you with them. So it refutes your argument.

He also mentions Thomas Carlyle in the first chapter of his book and he says that many Muslims make the mistake of believing he is a "Muslim" of sorts. In fact Carlyle said very clearly that the Quran is chaotic, full of unnecessary repetitions and clearly not a work of divine inspiration. So you cannot have it both ways, use Carlyle as a proof in favor of Islam because of what he said in the first page but ignore completely what he says in the second.
I cited Thomas Carlyle's view on Prophet Muhammad pbuh because you asserted that non-muslims thought ill of him. Now what Carlyle thought of the Qur'an is irrelevant to what non-muslims think of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. I'm citing his opinion as a HISTORIAN not a Qur'anic scholar.

Regards
Reply

Turin Turambar
02-20-2006, 09:52 PM
Hi Ansar,

After a night of rest I am in a better position to keep dealing with your not-too-short post but once again I will have to take it bit by bit, because I don't have your energy...;)

One of the last things you said was related to a link that you attached. Your words were "And don't think I didn't see that stunt you tried to pull - you failed to comment entirely on the refutation I gave you from Bismika Allahuma.org. Don't skip it again." I can assure you most earnestly that I have no intention of pulling any stunt. It is only that as I said your posts can be kind of massive so I have to deal with them in a piecemeal fashion. But if you have patience you will see me answer to everything you say.

But I read that link. It is interesting. The gist of the argument is that Jesus didn't engage in armed warfare like Muhammed did because his career was cut short by his death. If he had lived long enough he would also have founded an empire. If he had lived long enough perhaps he would have also acquired 15 wives and 30 concubines as Muhammed did. So essentially Jesus was trying to be Muhammad but he couldn't because he died too early to achieve that state of perfection.

It goes without saying that we Christians will never be convinced of anything like that, but I don't want to spend too much time there because I think it is unnecessary.

What is more interesting in that link is a different thing. It shows the emphasis Muslims place on everything political. They can really think that Jesus was trying to be a political leader and command armies, it is only that he couldn't do it. The real Jesus, as understood by his followers for two thousand years, wasn't concerned at all with political leadership. His role was completely spiritual. He insisted (and his followers insisted) on the fact that His kingdom was not of this world.

Could that difference in emphasis explain the difference in political destinies of Christian countries and Muslim countries? Perhaps those who take a political view of their religious leader will always try to mix religion and politics and they will end up with things like the Taliban in Afghanistan, who were certainly very religious and very political at the same time? And perhaps those who take a spiritual view of their religious leader will end up with things like modern democracies, in which priests have no political role?

As I said, I found your link very instructive.
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azim
02-20-2006, 10:09 PM
Turin - you have just taken Ansar's very factual and evidence based post, and replied with your own personal opinion and conjecture claiming your 'tired'. Talk about the facts Ansar has brought up rather than simply stating your opinion, otherwise create a blog and write to your hearts content.
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Mohsin
02-21-2006, 11:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azim
Talk about the facts Ansar has brought up rather than simply stating your opinion, otherwise create a blog and write to your hearts content.
;D ;D Well said bro!
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Turin Turambar
02-22-2006, 02:28 AM
Dear friends,

I will go back to the "long message" otherwise I will be accused again of trying to avoid some issues. In any case that message is very rich so I will have fun for a long time...;)

Now I will touch upon the following assertion of Ansar Al-'Adl:

"The Shah of Persia sent his men to arrest and execute the Prophet Muhammad and the Roman Governate in Ghassan killed one of the Prophet's diplomats. Both are open acts of war. The persian and roman empires sought to crush the new Islamic empire, but their tyrannical rule failed."

So, the Roman Governor killed one of the prophet's diplomats and that was an open act of war. And that allowed the Muslim armies to invade and occupy Roman territory until today (Egypt and Syria were Roman provinces).
Because one diplomat had been killed the Muslim armies could invade and occupy FOR EVER territory belonging to another country and according to Ansar Al-'Adl that means that the Muslims were not aggressors in that war. So I cannot say that it was a conquest by force....because one diplomat had been killed before the invasion.

Would you apply that criterion today? I kind of like it after all. I would like it applied in the case of Iran. Iran held 52 Americans hostages for more than a year, participated in the murder of an American officer in Lebanon and the bombings of the Khobar Towers (American military installations in Saudi Arabia). Clearly acts of war.

So, according to Ansar Al-'Adl America could invade Iran, keep it occupied for ever, kill all Iranian males who opposed the invasion, rape captive (infidel) women, impose a special humilliation tax on Muslims (of which Christians would be exempt) and incorporate the whole country to America.

And that wouldn't qualify as aggression according to Ansar Al-'Adl because there was previously an act of war justifying the invasion.

No, my friends, I wouldn't approve of that. And if you were fair you would recognize that it is exactly what happened back then. If you have any doubt about the sad conditions imposed on those who were invaded, please look for Bat Yeor on the Internet. He will tell you what it means to be a dhimmi. Don't wish that on others because you might get it for yourselves.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-22-2006, 02:53 AM
Hello Turin,
Thanks for your post.
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
So, the Roman Governor killed one of the prophet's diplomats and that was an open act of war. And that allowed the Muslim armies to invade and occupy Roman territory until today (Egypt and Syria were Roman provinces).
Let's examine the historical details in some more depth, shall we:
-The Prophet Muhammad pbuh sent a messenger to the the Ghassan tribe, a governate of the Roman empire
-the Chieftain had the messenger killed, an act of war
-the Prophet Muhammad pbuh sent a small army to confront the Ghassan tribe, but the Ghassan tribe recieved re-inforcements from other parts of the Roman Empire, overwhelming the Muslim forces
-the Roman empire began to mobilize their forces at Tabuk and other regions in preparation to crush the new Islamic state
-a series of battles between the Roman empire and the Islamic state ensued, the latter emerging as victorious

So we see that the Muslims did not initiate agressions against the Roman empire, but the two were in a state of open war since the execution of the Muslim messenger.

Because one diplomat had been killed the Muslim armies could invade and occupy FOR EVER territory belonging to another country
Your reasoning is fallacious. Were the Muslims supposed to only have one battle and then sit and wait for the Roman empire to re-group and crush them?! When there was open war between the Roman and Islamic state, this is what lead to a series of battles to defeat the Roman forces and naturally the conquest was part of that.

Would you apply that criterion today? I kind of like it after all. I would like it applied in the case of Iran. Iran held 52 Americans hostages for more than a year, participated in the murder of an American officer in Lebanon and the bombings of the Khobar Towers (American military installations in Saudi Arabia). Clearly acts of war.
If two countries are at war with eachother, then invasion of territory is usually what happens.

Also, you have failed to consider the fact that the Roman and Persian empires were struggling to increase their power and dominion and sought to crush the new Islamic state. Iran is in no position to invade America, on the other hand.

kill all Iranian males who opposed the invasion
A blatant lie. Where is the evidence that Muslims killed non-combatant Roman males? The only people killed were enemy soldiers, obviously!
rape captive (infidel) women
Another blatant lie. Rape is a criminal act in Islam and your allegation regarding captive women has been refuted in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ave-girls.html

impose a special humilliation tax on Muslims (of which Christians would be exempt)
I believe you are referring to the Jizyah tax, which is another thing Anti-Islamists enjoy distorting in their campaign of spreading lies against Muslims. Jizyah has been explained here:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503544994

Let's see whjat Non-Muslim historians say about Jizyah - from Sir Thomas Arnold:
This tax was not imposed on the Christians, as some would have us think, as a penalty for their refusal to accept the Muslim faith. Rather, it was paid by them in common with the other dhimmis or non-Muslim subjects of the state whose religion precluded them from serving in the army, in return for the protection secured for them by the arms of the Muslims. When the people of Hirah contributed the sum agreed upon, they expressly mentioned that they paid this jizyah on condition that ‘the Muslims and their leader protect us from those who would oppress us, whether they be Muslims or others.”
Every country has its citizens pay taxes so why do you criticise the Islamic state?! Muslims pay Zakat and Non-Muslims pay Jizyah.

As for occupying the invaded territory, this is common to every empire, not just the Islamic state. There were no international treaties or coalitions to allow an empire to simply abandon conquered territory without the fear of the enemy empire reclaiming the land and using it to launch a counter-attack.

Peace
Reply

Turin Turambar
02-25-2006, 04:27 AM
To Ansar Al-'Adl:

Although I am debating with you in other threads, I go back with enthusiasm to your original "long post" in this thread, of which I am answering different parts. Now I will touch upon the following:

I had said originally: "Islam KEEPS YOU IN POVERTY AND TYRANNY."

To which you answered "Then how did Islam make the world greatest civilization for over a thousand years??"

I think that this is one of the most important issues I would like to talk about because I see over and over again than one of the great reasons Muslims still believe in Islam is because of that "Golden Era" in which Islam was a leading civilization in the world. They are always longing for it and they base a good part of their whole defense of Islam in the fact that it existed. The uppermost question in the mind of Muslims seems to be: "If we could do it then, perhaps we can do it now, perhaps it is a matter of trying hard enough and those days will be back" or a different version of the same question is "How can Islam be wrong when it gave birth to that leading civilization?"

What has changed?

I will tell you. The source of power for a civilization has changed for ever. And this is why the “Golden Era” of Islam is over and it will never come back.

During the time in which Islam was powerful (and in fact in all previous periods of history) the main source of power for a civilization was military power. And before the advent of modern technology military power was based on how many soldiers you had and how ferocious in battle they were. And in this two respects Islam was excellent, because it put women in a social position in which their main function was to procreate new warriors and it gave men an ethical code in which war (especially for the defense and expansion of Islam) was the most highly valued activity. As a consequence, Islam was very powerful.

The Christian countries of Europe in general could not compare to Islam in terms of military qualities because of the peaceful nature of Christianity. Warriors were not highly praised and in fact to participate in war was usually considered sinful. But the Christian countries discovered a trick, and the monks (despised by Islam) were actually those who discovered it. It was a trick based on a new form of thinking, which is very difficult to describe but was highly effective. This new way of thinking gave birth to western philosophy and later western science and later western technology, modern economy and democracy. Since this discovery the source of power for a civilization is not anymore its number of soldiers but its technological and economic power. So today, it is not the society that has more and better soldiers the one that will dominate but the one that has more and better scientists and businessmen.

And on that account Christianity is much better than Islam, because it encourages peaceful activities, such as those of scientists, who are much more praised in the West than soldiers. In the world of Islam ferocity is still highly praised, as we can see almost every day. In the modern world having thousand of brave soldiers doesn’t add anything to your power, because a few scientists (who look very much like those despised Christian monks of old) can discover new weapons that can destroy any number of soldiers. That is why the West today can destroy Islam if it wants to, although an average western soldier is probably less ferocious than an average Muslim soldier. In fact more and more soldiers in the West are women…;)

That is why the same doctrine that gave power to Muslim countries in the past is today keeping them in poverty. The world of Islam is still very bad at using the modern way of thinking and that is why it is so poor, although it is following the same doctrine that once made it powerful. The doctrine is the same, but the times have changed.

The sooner Muslims recognize this truth and the fact that their Golden Era will never be back, the better.

For all of us.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-25-2006, 04:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
During the time in which Islam was powerful (and in fact in all previous periods of history) the main source of power for a civilization was military power.
I am not talking about military power, I am talking about scientific advancements. Clearly you have not read the link, here it is again:
http://muslimheritage.com/

because it put women in a social position in which their main function was to procreate new warriors
A blatant lie. The main function of women and the main function of men is the same - to serve Allah and no one else (Qur'an 51:56).

Since this discovery the source of power for a civilization is not anymore its number of soldiers but its technological and economic power.
The Islamic empire had the leading economy as well, so your point fails again.

And on that account Christianity is much better than Islam, because it encourages peaceful activities, such as those of scientists
That is why the scientists feared the church! They were too afraid to say the earth was round, when four centuries before, Ibn Tamiyyah, a leading Islamic scholar, and many others, mentioned that the earth was round. Again, read about the Muslim scientists at http://www.muslimheritage.com

That is why the West today can destroy Islam if it wants to
The west can destroy Muslims, but no one can ever destroy Islam, the eternal path of submission to the One Creator.

In fact, your own fellow Christian Missionaries disagree with you. Joel Richardson, an ardent opponent of Islam and fervent missionary, writes in his book Will Islam be Our Future?, in which he attempts to galvanize missionaries into action:
The clearest reason to study and understand Islam and specifically Islamic eschatology is quite simply because Islam is the future.* Yes, you read that correctly: Islam is the future.* If present trends do not change dramatically, Islam will bypass Christianity for the title of the world’s largest religion very shortly.* In fact, according to most statistics, this may take place in less than twenty years.
Regards
Reply

Turin Turambar
02-25-2006, 06:47 PM
Ansar Al-'Adl,

In general I like your posts a lot and I say that seriously. But this last one was a little weak, because you really didn't address my points.

I am obviously aware of those "scientific advances" in the Islamic Empire. All of you Muslims are mentioning them all the time! The last one happened approximately the year 1200. Enough said.

When I say that the position of women was to procreate, I am saying that from the practical or social point of view. Obviously from the religious point of view our mission is to worship God. That is true for both Christians and Muslims. That wasn't my point.

But you didn't address the essential part of my argument. I am explaining to you why is it that the same Islam that made Muslims powerful in the Middle Ages is making them weak today. I say this with sincerity and good will. I am sure that for all your conviction, even you have asked yourself that question. If you are performing today the same 5 prayers a day that you were performing back then, why is it that now you are weak?

Please believe me, because I know this IS the right answer.

Today all the scientific and technological advances are developed in the West. The West and the “westernized” countries such as Japan, Korea and China control the economy of the world. The gap with the Muslim countries is probably increasing because of the newfound religious enthusiasm in many of those countries. I am sure that the science curriculum in the maddrassas is kind of weak.

My statement is that the Islamic “Golden Era” will never come back. To prove that I am wrong you have to prove one of two things:

1) Science and technology will somehow lose their role as the main source of power in the modern world. That role will go to some other field of human activity in which Muslims will have an advantage.

2) Muslims will not only catch up with non-Muslims in the field of science and technology but they will surpass them, allowing Islam to be again a leading civilization. Today 99% percent of scientists and businessmen are non-Muslims. But their Muslim counterparts will reproduce themselves at such a rate that they will surpass that number and make Islam powerful again.

Which of the two do you think will happen? Please remember that I am not saying this to humiliate you Muslims. I would NEVER do that. On the contrary, I want all of you to take a new look at things.


PS: I am having so much fun with these debates!
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Sister Khadija
02-25-2006, 07:54 PM
Peace be with you Turin Turambar!

[QUOTE=Turin Turambar;194376]But you didn't address the essential part of my argument. I am explaining to you why is it that the same Islam that made Muslims powerful in the Middle Ages is making them weak today. I say this with sincerity and good will. I am sure that for all your conviction, even you have asked yourself that question. If you are performing today the same 5 prayers a day that you were performing back then, why is it that now you are weak?[QUOTE]

There are weak in every religion, but each person is accountable for their actions.

Why ponder the question why are other Muslims weak? The more negative you think, the more negative you allow into your brain, the happier you make Iblis (Satan), AUDO BILLAHI MINA SHAITAN ARRAGIM (I seek refuge with Allah away from the Shaitan).

When I hear of weak Muslims, I thank Allah that I am not weak and I ask him to send blessing to all the Humanking to help the Muslims revert to True Islam and to unviel the minds and hearts of the non-beleiver that they will become believers.

Then, I keep doing what I have to do and do not think of the other weak as I pray for them which is more powerful than anything.

Asking why are you weak is not a valid question. We can not answer for other people.


[QUOTE=Turin Turambar;194376]Please believe me, because I know this IS the right answer.

Today all the scientific and technological advances are developed in the West. The West and the “westernized” countries such as Japan, Korea and China control the economy of the world. The gap with the Muslim countries is probably increasing because of the newfound religious enthusiasm in many of those countries. I am sure that the science curriculum in the maddrassas is kind of weak.[QUOTE]

The scientific and technological advances are gifts from Allah, it is up to us to use them for the right or for the wrong. Almost everything on the internet is Harram (sinful), but what you do with it is your test, your reason for life. There is a right way and a wrong way to everything in life. It is what you use with it that you will be judged.

Example, if you send a fax to a company do you say, "Cool, it went through, I love technology!"? Is that what MOST people say? If the fax fails MOST people say "Stupid technology, it figure it doesnt always work!"?

Why not send the fax and thank GOD for inspiring someone with the idea to help the world of our generation? "Thank you GOD for creating this machine to help humankind! That is true Islam!


format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
My statement is that the Islamic “Golden Era” will never come back. To prove that I am wrong you have to prove one of two things:
Well, do you know the Bible story that when Jesus comes back he will bring a builiding 1500 feet high, 1500 feet each way to the East and West, and North and South and he will rule with the beleivers in this place?

The Qur'an confirms the Bible and corrects it. That is the Golden Age! Only problem, the Bible doesn't tell you what happens after that. After that is Judgement and then Paradise will be created. Those truly deserving believers will have thier own Mansion with 50,000 windows made of the purest Diamond you can not even image. The floors are rubies, the streest are pearls and etc. You have half the story in the Bible, but not the full in detail story.

format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
1) Science and technology will somehow lose their role as the main source of power in the modern world. That role will go to some other field of human activity in which Muslims will have an advantage.

2) Muslims will not only catch up with non-Muslims in the field of science and technology but they will surpass them, allowing Islam to be again a leading civilization. Today 99% percent of scientists and businessmen are non-Muslims. But their Muslim counterparts will reproduce themselves at such a rate that they will surpass that number and make Islam powerful again.

Which of the two do you think will happen? Please remember that I am not saying this to humiliate you Muslims. I would NEVER do that. On the contrary, I want all of you to take a new look at things.
When the Golden age comes, the Earth will be different that we can not even comprehend it today. A slice of Heaven is put on this earth so everything about technology will be different and our way of thinking will be different.

Many hadiths indicate the existence of a period when the Qur'an's values will pervade Earth. This period, known as the Golden Age, will last for more than half a century and, in many ways, will resemble 'the Blessed Period' of our Prophet (saas).

According to one hadith, people will be so content that they will spend their days with no idea as to how time passes and how one day turns into the next. They will pray to Allah to prolong their lives in order to receive more benefits from these graces. Another Prophetic hadith states that;

The younger ones wish they were grown-ups, while the adults wish they were younger... The good become even more good, and even the wicked ones are treated well. (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir al-zaman, p. 59)

Unprecedented Abundance

Many hadiths reveal that there will be an unprecedented abundance of crops and goods, all of which will be distributed without measure:

During this (period), my ummah (people) will lead a kind of comfortable and carefree life that they have never known before. (The land) will bring forth its yield and will not hold anything back... (Ibn Majah)

Technological developments will provide abundance in the Golden Age

People will reap 700 measures of wheat for every one they sow ... People will throw down a few handfuls of seeds and reap 700 handfuls ... Although much rain will fall, none will be wasted. (Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi `Alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntazar, p. 24)

This hadith refers to an increase in agricultural production that will occur in the End Times by transitioning to modern agriculture, developing new agricultural techniques, improving seed stocks, and using rainwater more efficiently by constructing new dams and artificial lakes.

The high cost of living and poverty will end

As the Golden Age will be a time of welfare and great wealth, all people will receive more than they demand. Nothing will be measured or counted.

Our Prophet (saas) said that his people will live in blessings, especially during the Last Days:

A time will come when a person, with his golden alms in his hand, will go around, finding no one (in need) who is willing to receive the alms. (Mukhtasar Tazkirah Qurtubi)

Then will my Ummah be blessed, the number of animals will increase and the land will bear its fruits. (Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi `Alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntazar, p. 26)

Definitely possessions will be in abundance then, flowing like water. Yet no one will (condescend) to take any. (Mukhtasar Tazkirah Qurtubi)

I am having so much fun with these debates too!

Sister Khadija :sister: :sister:
Reply

cool_jannah
02-25-2006, 07:58 PM
salaamalaikum

Your argument about the Muslim Ummah's downfall at this point of time is completely understandable. Even Muslims raise this question many times.
Firstly you need to understand that our connection with Allah,Subhanahu wa Ta'aala(Glorified be He, the most high) is not dependent upon how much He gives us or how much He takes from us. Because our Aqqedah(fundamental beliefs) is that - Allah, Subhanahu wa T'aala is the Lord and the Sustainer and the Cherisher irrespective of how much struggle or hardships we are in. We are taught not be like the Jews who use to worship and become happy with their Lord only when He gave His blessings to them and become angry or start complaining when He takes away their comfort.
Irrespective of what the Muslim Ummah is going through, Allah is still our Creator, the Most Merciful, the Most forgiving. Our connection with Him is always established. The struggle and hardships of life are just a test for the believers as to how much do they really believe in Allah as their Lord. The ones with weak Imaan give up quickly..those are the hypocrites and may Allah guide them.
Secondly, I think it is your misunderstanding about the attributes or true nature of God and your ignorance regarding Islam, that you come up with this argument about the downfall of Muslims. Allah, Subhanahu wa T'aala does not really need our ibadas(worships) and devotions...He is free from any kind of need or influence.He is the Most Powerful. It is, as I mentioned earlier, our(Muslims) fault. When people start losing their sight towars the straight path, Allah the Merciful makes them go through hardships and worries...to make them realize..and thus return back to the straight path. Just like how a person goes to the graveyard to burry his close relative and watches him being put in the ground, makes him realize that he will too one day go through the same phase. So it is just a reminder for Muslims.

and your second part about the golden era has got to be the most ridiculous thing ive heard in this whole week..cmon you gotto be much more resonable inyour arguments and claims. who are you to put up those two conditions defining the 'golden era' whatever that might be. honestly speaking the definition of your 'golden era' is something totaly different from ours. we are working on our Afterlife, the one which will be forever....unlike this life which is usually around 70-80 years. all the progress in the world has led nothing to but more destruction and chaos...and remember this that progress and advancement in this worldly life..or bringing about a change in the societies DOES NOT have to be necessarily for good. and dont get me wrong...Islam does not discourage us from learning and progressing...it all depends upon what kind of progress you are making!
I really think a highly educated and qualified intellectual, who works all his life to attain a certain worldly goal...say go to Mars and stay there for a year or somethin....if he comes back, he still has to go in his grave and stand up on the day of reckoning. and if he fails on that day..all his struggle in this life was in vain and a total waste of time...i mean he is doomed forever...
WE ARE CREATED FOR A PURPOSE....AND THAT PURPOSE IS TO WORSHIP ALLAH...if you dont even know who your Sustainer is all your life...and you waste your head on something so obscure as to go on Mars or somethin...
you are nothing but a fool
Reply

Eric H
02-25-2006, 08:34 PM
greetings and peace to you all,

I feel that we should not try and compete against each other, rather I feel there is a great need to pray for each other, that we may all achieve salvation.

In the spirit of striving for greater interfaith relations

Eric
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-25-2006, 08:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
When I say that the position of women was to procreate, I am saying that from the practical or social point of view. Obviously from the religious point of view our mission is to worship God.
You said that Islam (RELIGION) put women in a position where their main function was to procreate warriors. As I pointed out, that statement is nonsensical.

I am sure that for all your conviction, even you have asked yourself that question. If you are performing today the same 5 prayers a day that you were performing back then, why is it that now you are weak?
But that's the problem right there - Muslims today are not practicing their religion. The poor condition of the Muslims is because they have abandoned their religion, they are lazy with their prayers, they are not careful about avoiding haraam. If the Muslims returned to their religion, then God would return to the Muslims their status. Your problem is that you are on the outside, and you don't know if the Muslims are practicing their religion. Those of us who are part of the community know that the Muslim Ummah has a long way to go in returning to Islam.

Please believe me, because I know this IS the right answer.
lol, this remined me of the arguments thread:
193.) ARGUMENT FROM HIDDEN WISDOM (aka MATTHEW SLICK ARGUMENT #6)

Listen people, Islam is false.
I know a lot more about this than I'm letting on.
Therefore, Islam is false.
The gap with the Muslim countries is probably increasing because of the newfound religious enthusiasm in many of those countries.
Then why were Muslims the leading civilization in science and technology when they were practicing their religion?
My statement is that the Islamic “Golden Era” will never come back. To prove that I am wrong you have to prove one of two things:
1) Science and technology will somehow lose their role as the main source of power in the modern world. That role will go to some other field of human activity in which Muslims will have an advantage.
What has this to do with the Islamic Golder Era?! What makes you think that Muslims cannot excel in science and technology?
2) Muslims will not only catch up with non-Muslims in the field of science and technology but they will surpass them, allowing Islam to be again a leading civilization.
You're making the claim that they won't so the burden of proof is on you!
Today 99% percent of scientists and businessmen are non-Muslims.
Source?!?

Peace.
Reply

Mohsin
02-25-2006, 09:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Please believe me, because I know this IS the right answer
lol, this remined me of the arguments thread:
193.) ARGUMENT FROM HIDDEN WISDOM (aka MATTHEW SLICK ARGUMENT #6)

Listen people, Islam is false.
I know a lot more about this than I'm letting on.
Therefore, Islam is false.


LOL ;D You should copy and paste this on the 100 proofs post by missionaries, there was someone there who was saying this is an insult and stuff, well this is proof that people do actually make these claims. So funny, couldn't stop laughing when i read it, nice one turin
Reply

Mohsin
02-25-2006, 09:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
greetings and peace to you all,

I feel that we should not try and compete against each other, rather I feel there is a great need to pray for each other, that we may all achieve salvation.

Eric
Salam Eric, i've asked you this before, how can we all be on the path to salvation when Christianity says only believing in jesus PBUH is the saviour is the path to heaven, and Muslims saying on the other hand if anyone believes Jesus is Son of God or One-In-Three they will enter hell. These are contradicting views, both can't be right can they. So your right we as muslims do pray for our christian brothers, that they come back to the path that Jesus PBUH preached.....Islam. We're not competeing with each other, it's clear we both think our own way is the right way and best way. i understand where Turin's coming from, he believes Christianity is right so he wants us to also be following the correct path, but i don't understand your perspective on this, if you think Christianity is the best way, why don't you want to spread it to us so that we also enjoy this great bounty. What you love for yourself you love for your brother and neighbour, right?
Reply

Eric H
02-25-2006, 10:10 PM
Greetings and peace Moss

i understand where Turin's coming from, he believes Christianity is right so he wants us to also be following the correct path.
Like Turin I also believe that Christianity is right, but unlike Turin I do not believe in arguing points of faith, or trying to compete in faith. Both you and Ansar seem to know a lot about Christianity already so I probably cannot tell you something you do not know already.

but i don't understand your perspective on this, if you think Christianity is the best way, why don't you want to spread it to us so that we also enjoy this great bounty.
In both Christianity and Islam there is a verse which says that God guides whom he wills. If God guides me through Christianity and he guides you through Islam; then who are we as mere mortals to try and alter God’s will.

Whatever you may think I cannot spread Christianity to you, if you choose Christianity you must willingly choose to do this for yourself with the help of the spirit.

What you love for yourself you love for your brother and neighbour, right?
What I love for myself is the freedom from you to choose my faith and live my faith one day at a time; so that I may strive for a greater relationship with God and all my neighbours.

If the thing I love above all else is the freedom to practice my faith without opposition from you, then I must also respect that you may want freedom from me so that you may grow in faith through Islam.

The chances are there will always be many factions of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc. We each believe we are right but we cannot know for sure, we must pray for each other that we may all gain salvation. We must seek justice, peace and love for each other, because above all else we are all the creation of the same God.

In the spirit of seeking greater interfaith relations

Eric
Reply

Turin Turambar
02-25-2006, 11:13 PM
Dear Moss,

Your message to Eric was excellent. You understand my point. If you think something is true you want it for everybody.

But when I said "Please believe me, because I know this IS the right answer"
you misunderstood me! You thought that was the argument! That is of course not an argument, it is only the part of my message where I am sincerely PLEADING to you for you to take a new look at things. The argument is the rest of the post! Would you like to say something about the real argument I am making? I would really appreciate that.

In order to make it easy I will repeat it here:

My statement is that the Islamic “Golden Era” will never come back. To prove that I am wrong you have to prove one of two things:

1) Science and technology will somehow lose their role as the main source of power in the modern world. That role will go to some other field of human activity in which Muslims will have an advantage.

2) Muslims will not only catch up with non-Muslims in the field of science and technology but they will surpass them, allowing Islam to be again a leading civilization. Today 99% percent of scientists and businessmen are non-Muslims. But their Muslim counterparts will reproduce themselves at such a rate that they will surpass that number and make Islam powerful again.

Which of the two do you think will happen? And if none of the two happen, doesn't it prove that the "Islamic Golden Era" will never come back?
Reply

Muslim Knight
02-26-2006, 05:16 AM
Which of the two do you think will happen? And if none of the two happen, doesn't it prove that the "Islamic Golden Era" will never come back?
Did the Crusaders (or at least Paul) ever thought that Islam would one day be the world fastest growing religion as it is today? Come one, just type it in your search engine, "The fastest growing religion in the world."

Many prophecies as indicated in the Hadith of our beloved Rasulullah (salallahu 'alayhi wassalam) have been fulfilled, and turn of events are leading towards the coming of the End of Times and before that the emergence of Al-Mahdi and Jesus ('alayhi salaam). The Islamic Golden Age will return. www.jesuswillreturn.com
Reply

songinwind
02-26-2006, 05:41 AM
I did as u sujested brother:)

ISLaAM is the fastest growing religion in the world. Because Islam is a complete way of life. It tells man about the purpose of his creation and existence, his ultimate destiny, his place among other creatures and more importantly, it provides him with guidance to lead a balanced and purposeful life which will enable him to avoid the Hell-fire and be rewarded with a place in Paradise in the life after death. Simply Islaam is to "Obey Allah" (Allah is the Name of the Only One True God). Islaam is a verb in Arabic (a doing word). The one who does Islaam is called a Muslim. (Allah calls us "Muslims" in His Speech of Qur'ân).

The Arabic word Islaam means voluntary surrender to the will of Allaah and obedience to His commands. Allaah is an Arabic word, the proper name of God. Muslims prefer to use Allaah rather than God
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/womens/islam.htm
peace to all...
Reply

Lush
02-26-2006, 06:12 AM
Could it be that "honor killings" and Islam are SOMEHOW related?
I know I'm jumping in a bit late here, but... Honour killings are completely against Islam, and this has already been pointed out on this thread. But there are certain "Muslim" movements in Arabia and South Asia that want to perserve this barbaric "tradition." Jordan's Islamic Action Front comes to mind.

For as long as groups like that continue supporting this so-called custom, large numbers of non-Muslims will remain confused as to who supports what, and why.
Reply

Cheb
02-26-2006, 07:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Dear Moss,

Your message to Eric was excellent. You understand my point. If you think something is true you want it for everybody.

But when I said "Please believe me, because I know this IS the right answer"
you misunderstood me! You thought that was the argument! That is of course not an argument, it is only the part of my message where I am sincerely PLEADING to you for you to take a new look at things. The argument is the rest of the post! Would you like to say something about the real argument I am making? I would really appreciate that.

In order to make it easy I will repeat it here:

My statement is that the Islamic “Golden Era” will never come back. To prove that I am wrong you have to prove one of two things:

1) Science and technology will somehow lose their role as the main source of power in the modern world. That role will go to some other field of human activity in which Muslims will have an advantage.

2) Muslims will not only catch up with non-Muslims in the field of science and technology but they will surpass them, allowing Islam to be again a leading civilization. Today 99% percent of scientists and businessmen are non-Muslims. But their Muslim counterparts will reproduce themselves at such a rate that they will surpass that number and make Islam powerful again.

Which of the two do you think will happen? And if none of the two happen, doesn't it prove that the "Islamic Golden Era" will never come back?
Actually you cant "prove" any of what you just said. You either believe it or you don't.
Reply

Mohsin
02-26-2006, 09:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Dear Moss,

Your message to Eric was excellent. You understand my point. If you think something is true you want it for everybody.

But when I said "Please believe me, because I know this IS the right answer"
you misunderstood me! You thought that was the argument! That is of course not an argument, it is only the part of my message where I am sincerely PLEADING to you for you to take a new look at things. The argument is the rest of the post! Would you like to say something about the real argument I am making? I would really appreciate that.

In order to make it easy I will repeat it here:

My statement is that the Islamic “Golden Era” will never come back. To prove that I am wrong you have to prove one of two things:

1) Science and technology will somehow lose their role as the main source of power in the modern world. That role will go to some other field of human activity in which Muslims will have an advantage.

2) Muslims will not only catch up with non-Muslims in the field of science and technology but they will surpass them, allowing Islam to be again a leading civilization. Today 99% percent of scientists and businessmen are non-Muslims. But their Muslim counterparts will reproduce themselves at such a rate that they will surpass that number and make Islam powerful again.

Which of the two do you think will happen? And if none of the two happen, doesn't it prove that the "Islamic Golden Era" will never come back?

She said: ‘My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?’ He said: ‘So (it will be). Allah creates what He will. If He decrees a thing, He says unto it only: “Be!” and it is.’(Ali-Imran, 3:45-47)


God can do anything, as a christian even you agree with that. now this matter comes to faith. The two possiilities are not the only possibilities. I mean just off the top of my head i think there is another possibility. That is i believe in what the prophet Muhammed PBUH has taught us, and we are told that one time in the world everyone will be muslim. Look at islam it is growing so fast, everyday more and more people are reverting, it's entirely my opinion and hope, and i can't bring any proof for this except from the Qur'an, that the west will eventually be majority islamic, then all "science and technology" will be with muslims. If muslims begin practicing their religion, ALL of them, or even majority of them, then more people will revert. Obviously you can't see this happening so this argument is futile
Reply

sumay28
02-26-2006, 10:24 AM
Man I won't get in on this one too deep... what the heck are you talking about dude?? I'm done.
Reply

Eric H
02-26-2006, 10:24 AM
Greetings and peace Moss,

Do you think that God's greatest purpose for creating the universe and life was to make all people follow Islam?

When it comes to our life after death, Will Islam still be the greatest purpose for God in heaven?

God bless

Eric
Reply

sumay28
02-26-2006, 01:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace Moss,

Do you think that God's greatest purpose for creating the universe and life was to make all people follow Islam?

When it comes to our life after death, Will Islam still be the greatest purpose for God in heaven?

God bless

Eric
We must first analyze the meaning of the word "Islam". I'm sure you've heard someone explain this to you before, but what the hay ... why not?
In the religious sense of the word, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law... the meaning of life right there, eric. Submission. Is it crazy to believe that God put people on earth to actually worship him? Praying 5 times a day is a pindrop of what God deserves. If you were to count all the favors that God has bestowed on you alone, you can fill the ocean and then some.
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songinwind
02-26-2006, 03:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sumay28
We must first analyze the meaning of the word "Islam". I'm sure you've heard someone explain this to you before, but what the hay ... why not?
In the religious sense of the word, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law... the meaning of life right there, eric. Submission. Is it crazy to believe that God put people on earth to actually worship him? Praying 5 times a day is a pindrop of what God deserves. If you were to count all the favors that God has bestowed on you alone, you can fill the ocean and then some.


SO TRUE sister....so little is asked of us. Allah's slaves....very good post....so well said...:)
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Mohsin
02-26-2006, 04:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace Moss,

Do you think that God's greatest purpose for creating the universe and life was to make all people follow Islam?

When it comes to our life after death, Will Islam still be the greatest purpose for God in heaven?

God bless

Eric

As sister Sumayah has said you have to understand what islam is. Islam is worshipping God alone without partners, according to the way he wants us to worship him and not woshipping him incorrectly
So yes i believe God wants us to be muslims, ie follow his way to live and woirship him correctly. That's not necessary the reason God created the universe, God knows best but why,but we believe it was to test us-the righteous and evildoers among us, who will accept the true path, who will practice it. Not everyone was going to be a muslim, God knew that
So yes Islam will still be greatest purpose in heaven, because we will still need to worship God won't we, the right way
We don't believe i christianty is what God, or even Jesus PBUH himself taught. If you look at the bible and how Jesus PBUH lived, if he came back today who would he be more familiar with, majority of Christians today,or majority of practicing muslims today, that is muslims who prayed just like he did, who fast just like he did, who don't eat pork just like he didn't, who don't drink alcohol just like he didn't. Look at the statues Of Jesus PBUH, (even though in the Bible he warned against creating statues but still people did), but look at the statues, look at how he's dressed, look at his beard, does he look more like a muslim, or like a christian? Look at statues of his Mother, Mary AS, covered like muslim women with hijab and islamic dress
jesus PBUH preached Islam, and was a muslim, that is although he may not have said "I'm a Muslim" but by definition, by what muslim means, he was a muslim, as were his early devout disciples, they worshipped God according to the way God wanted them to worship him
Reply

Turin Turambar
02-26-2006, 04:55 PM
Moss,

I was originally planning to answer to a previous post you wrote but then I discovered this last one. You are giving me a lot of work...;)

You say "jesus PBUH preached Islam". I have heard that of course said many times before, but I want to analyze it a little bit. If by that you mean Jesus preached the oneness of God and the brotherhood of men, you are right. Those are things that Jesus and Islam have in common.

But you know very well that Islam preached a lot of other things. It authorized men to have four wives. It ordered the hand of the thief to be cut off. When did Jesus preached all that? If Jesus NEVER said anything like that and actually his teachings can be understood to be in complete opposition to those regulations, how can you say that Jesus preached Islam?

No, Jesus didn't preach Islam. Focus on his teachings and not on his beard.
Reply

Mohsin
02-26-2006, 06:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Moss,

I was originally planning to answer to a previous post you wrote but then I discovered this last one. You are giving me a lot of work...;)

You say "jesus PBUH preached Islam". I have heard that of course said many times before, but I want to analyze it a little bit. If by that you mean Jesus preached the oneness of God and the brotherhood of men, you are right. Those are things that Jesus and Islam have in common.

But you know very well that Islam preached a lot of other things. It authorized men to have four wives. It ordered the hand of the thief to be cut off. When did Jesus preached all that? If Jesus NEVER said anything like that and actually his teachings can be understood to be in complete opposition to those regulations, how can you say that Jesus preached Islam?

No, Jesus didn't preach Islam. Focus on his teachings and not on his beard.
Those are all a matter of shariah, the islamic law at the time. It was different for different prophets designated to specific nations for a specific amount of time, so obviously his rules were different
Reply

cool_jannah
02-26-2006, 06:52 PM
POINTS TO BE CONSIDERED
After reading this presentation a believing Christian might say "This is what the Muslims, whom we always considered as heathens or infidels, say about Jesus." But the point of view which the Qur'an presents deserves serious consideration, to say the least, by those who are really concerned about God, faith and even Christianity itself for the following reasons:
  1. The Qur’an is the last version of God’s revelation and what it says is the ultimate truth. This might not mean much for those who do not believe in the Qur'an as such. However, the history of the Qur'an, modern textual criticism and scientific research of the content of this scripture leave no doubt about the truth it contains. The frequently made statements that the Qur'an is the word of Muhammad who copied his information from Jewish and Christian sources is made by people who do not know the history of the world, the Qur'an or Muhammad. The first Arabic translation of the Bible appeared two centuries after Muhammad's mission. If we add to this Muhammad's illiteracy and the scarcity of religious books in any language outside churches and temples in the sixth century we can understand the absurdity of this allegation.
  2. The oneness and universality of God's message requires that people accept all the messengers of God. Rejecting one of them amounts to rejecting them all. The Jews reject Jesus's mission and Muhammad's mission; the Christians reject Muhammad's mission; whereas the Muslims accept them all, but reject incorrect historical interpretations and human elements in these missions.
  3. Because of the Qur'an, Muslims love and respect Jesus as they love and respect the Prophet Muhammad. Moreover, the Qur'an reports some of Jesus's miracles which are not reported in the present gospel. For example, the Qur’an tells that Jesus spoke in the cradle and was able to tell people what they ate or treasured in their houses, to mention just a few.
  4. It is common knowledge that the divinity of Jesus was introduced by Saint Paul and his followers and was established on the dead bodies of millions of Christians through history which evoked the Castillo's well-known remark "To burn a man is not to prove a doctrine."
  5. The choice of the present four gospels was imposed in the conference of Nicea 325 C.E. under the auspices of the pagan Emperor Constantine for political purposes. Literally, hundreds of gospels and religious writings were considered apocrypha, i.e. books of doubtful authenticity. Some of those books were written by Jesus's disciples. If they were not more authentic than the four gospels they were of equal authenticity. Some of them still are available such as the Gospel of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas which agree with the Qur’an.
  6. The Unitarian concept and the humanness of Jesus is not only held by Muslims but also by Jews and by some early groups of Christianity such as the Ebionites, the Cerinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians and the Hypisistarians to name several early sects. The Arians, Paulicians and Goths also accepted Jesus as a prophet of God. Even in the modern age there are churches in Asia, in Africa, the Unitarian church, and Jehova Witnesses who do not worship Jesus as God.
  7. Most serious studies of the Bible have shown that it contains a large portion of additions which neither Jesus nor the writers of the gospels said. The church, as Heinz Zahrnt said, "put words into the mouth of Jesus which he never spoke and attributed actions to him which he never performed." Those conclusions were arrived at by some members of the church. However, they are kept secret or available only to the specialists. One of those, who has shown that most of what the church says about Jesus is baseless is Rudolf Augustein in his book Jesus Son of Man, (published in Germany 1972 and translated into English 1977).
  8. The problem with present Christianity is the personality of Jesus which is completely misunderstood. Jesus' nature, mission and claimed death and resurrection, are all challenged by studies in the field. One of those is a book entitled The Myth of God Incarnate which appeared 1977 (edited by John Hick) and written by seven theologian scholars in England. Their conclusion is that Jesus was "a man approved by God, for special role within the divine purpose, and … the later conception of him as God incarnate … is a mythological or poetic way of expressing his significance for us." The best George Carey could say in his attempt to refute the findings of those theologians is that unless one takes Jesus as God Incarnate one won't be able to understand Jesus' mission or explain its impact on people. This definitely is a very weak argument because all great prophets such as Abraham, Moses, and Muhammad have had a tremendous impact on people and none of them claimed that he was God or a son of God.
  9. The concept of the Trinity is not, of course, available even in the present Bible. There are statements which negate it such as "The Lord our God is one Lord (Math. 12:29) and many others.
  10. It is worth noting that Jesus never claims divinity even in the present text of the Bible. The expression "Son of God" cannot be said to have come from Jesus himself. Hasting in The Dictionary of the Bible says "Whether Jesus used it of himself is doubtful." In my reading of the Bible, I found only two instances in John Chapter 5 and 11 where Jesus uses "son of God" to refer to himself. Other instances were used by others. Even those are very limited. However, even if the title "son of God" was used by Jesus himself one should remember the following points:
    1. As a biblical scholar said, "Semitic usage would never have allowed literal sense even though such an expression would be interpreted literally in the Hellenistic world of Jesus followers".
    2. The New Testament Greek words used for "son" are pias and paida, which means 'servant' or 'son in the sense of servant, are translated son in reference to Jesus and servant in reference to others in some translations of the Bible (Mufassir, P. 15).
    3. The title "son of man" which is a self-designation of Jesus and occurs 81 times in the gospels is the clearest description and emphasis by Jesus on his humanity. The classical interpretation given to this title is that it is used to emphasize the human side of Jesus. Now the question which suggests itself is: Do contemporary Christians emphasize this aspect of Jesus?
Reply

Turin Turambar
02-26-2006, 06:55 PM
Moss,

You say "It was different for different prophets designated to specific nations for a specific amount of time". But then you make an exception for Muhammad, because according to you his rules are still binding, even today. So what Jesus said was only valid back then, but what Muhammad said has to be applied even now.

Why? if they are all prophets, why is it that the laws of one have preeminence over the laws of another? You will say "because Jesus was sent only for his nation and Muhammad was sent for all people". But everything Jesus said points to a universal message for all mankind. Why aren't his laws universal?

Why don't we focus instead on whether the rules are fair or not. Is it fair to have four wives? Is it fair to cut off hands?
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Mohsin
02-27-2006, 11:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Moss,

You say "It was different for different prophets designated to specific nations for a specific amount of time". But then you make an exception for Muhammad, because according to you his rules are still binding, even today. So what Jesus said was only valid back then, but what Muhammad said has to be applied even now.

Why? if they are all prophets, why is it that the laws of one have preeminence over the laws of another? You will say "because Jesus was sent only for his nation and Muhammad was sent for all people". But everything Jesus said points to a universal message for all mankind. Why aren't his laws universal?

Why don't we focus instead on whether the rules are fair or not. Is it fair to have four wives? Is it fair to cut off hands?

Regarding 4 wives, yes it is totally fine, in fact in some cases needed. Think of situations after war when men have died, think off all the homosexual men in the world, this leaves so few men for so many women. Think of all the widows? Whats gonna happen to these women? Do you want them to become prostitues and work in brothels? Or do you want them to seduce maried men into illegal relationshops ecause they can't find men themselves. maybe this is why society is like this, women are always in competition in the west, and also even in some islamic countries to get men, and lose their honour and dignity by selling their bodies in this purpose.
Remember a woman can ask in her mariage contract that she don't want her husband to be married to another woman, so if there is no such stipulation in the contract, why are you complaining if the woman herself is ok with it?
Finally it must be noted Islam put a limit on polygamy, before men would married to several women, much more than just 4.
If Jesus NEVER said anything like that and actually his teachings can be understood to be in complete opposition to those regulations, how can you say that Jesus preached Islam?
it's interesting to see that even prophets in the Bible have more than 4 wives, these are prophets. You believe Jesus PBUH is God, so he must have allowed these prophets to have so many wives,
according to that he was Preaching Islam

Regarding cutting off of hands, there is already a discussion about this http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ht=shariah+law , is it fair to cut off hands you ask? What about the original sin, of stealing? Such a law would stop people from stealing in futre

Funny how you've ignored Cool_Jannah's post ;D
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HeiGou
02-27-2006, 11:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by cool_jannah
The Qur’an is the last version of God’s revelation and what it says is the ultimate truth. This might not mean much for those who do not believe in the Qur'an as such. However, the history of the Qur'an, modern textual criticism and scientific research of the content of this scripture leave no doubt about the truth it contains.
Well you have to pick and choose among your textual critics. After all there are a lot of textual analysists in the West who do not accept this.

The frequently made statements that the Qur'an is the word of Muhammad who copied his information from Jewish and Christian sources is made by people who do not know the history of the world, the Qur'an or Muhammad. The first Arabic translation of the Bible appeared two centuries after Muhammad's mission.
Really? What is your evidence for that? And this is a serious question - How do you reconcile that belief with the Hadith, such as,

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:

Narrated 'Aisha:

(the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him.
>deletions<
Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."

It has always looked to me as if there was a Bible in Arabic around at the time. Muhammed's cousin by marriage wrote one. It just has not survived. Which is not to say Muhammed studied it. Just that there was one around. Or of course Bukhari is wrong.

If we add to this Muhammad's illiteracy and the scarcity of religious books in any language outside churches and temples in the sixth century we can understand the absurdity of this allegation.
Assuming that Muhammed was illiterate. I wonder when that idea arose and if it had anything to do with Christians accusing Muhammed of copying their scriptures and making it all up. Does anyone have any idea when the first reference to his illiteracy was?

It is common knowledge that the divinity of Jesus was introduced by Saint Paul and his followers and was established on the dead bodies of millions of Christians through history which evoked the Castillo's well-known remark "To burn a man is not to prove a doctrine."
Come on now. Common knowledge? Millions? Pull the other one.

Some of those books were written by Jesus's disciples. If they were not more authentic than the four gospels they were of equal authenticity. Some of them still are available such as the Gospel of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas which agree with the Qur’an.
Well self-evidently the Christians do not think they were written by Jesus's disciplies, nor is there any obvious political purpose to the Christians choosing the ones they chose. Nor is there the slightest reason to think that they are even of equal authenticity. You may think so, and you are welcome to, but your claim is both baseless and insulting to Christians. They do not agree with the Quran. Bits of them, used selectively, might.

]The Unitarian concept and the humanness of Jesus is not only held by Muslims but also by Jews and by some early groups of Christianity such as the Ebionites, the Cerinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians and the Hypisistarians to name several early sects. The Arians, Paulicians and Goths also accepted Jesus as a prophet of God. Even in the modern age there are churches in Asia, in Africa, the Unitarian church, and Jehova Witnesses who do not worship Jesus as God.
Which is to say minorities of utter insignificance. You are also doubling up some of your references. Goths, an ethnic group, were Arians, a religious sect.

The best George Carey could say in his attempt to refute the findings of those theologians is that unless one takes Jesus as God Incarnate one won't be able to understand Jesus' mission or explain its impact on people. This definitely is a very weak argument because all great prophets such as Abraham, Moses, and Muhammad have had a tremendous impact on people and none of them claimed that he was God or a son of God.
Actually it goes to the heart of Christian doctrine. Either Jesus is God incarnate or there is no reason to be a Christian.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-27-2006, 05:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
You say "jesus PBUH preached Islam". I have heard that of course said many times before, but I want to analyze it a little bit. If by that you mean Jesus preached the oneness of God and the brotherhood of men, you are right. Those are things that Jesus and Islam have in common.
Please refer to this article:
http://voiceforislam.com/JesusTheMuslim.html

But you know very well that Islam preached a lot of other things.
Your confusing a number of things. These are the laws brought by Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Jesus didn't bring any laws, he said he came to fufill the previousl laws, i.e. the mosaic laws. Now we can have a comparative discussion on the Mosaic laws and the Qur'anic laws, if you think the latter is more harsh, you certainly have not read your bible carefully!

If you want to educate yourself and find out the truth about Shari'ah law, beyond the stereotypes and fictitious material you see on TV (which you admit is your primary source), then I suggest you read the discussion here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ariah-law.html

Btw, when am I going to get a response to my previous post?
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HeiGou
02-27-2006, 05:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Jesus didn't bring any laws, he said he came to fufill the previousl laws, i.e. the mosaic laws.
Except either you have to accept the Christian idea of succession (ie Jesus came and abrogated some of the Mosaic laws) or that Jesus had an odd idea of what "fulfilling" the Mosaic laws meant. For example,

John.8
[1] Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
[2] And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
[3] And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
[4] They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
[5] Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
[6] This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
[7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
[8] And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
[9] And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
[10] When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
[11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
He is clearly not fulfilling the Mosaic laws in a normal sense. Christians would, perhaps, argue that he "fulfilled" the Law in the sense that he transcended it. But that goes with the whole "sacrifice for mankind" argument.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-27-2006, 05:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Except either you have to accept the Christian idea of succession (ie Jesus came and abrogated some of the Mosaic laws) or that Jesus had an odd idea of what "fulfilling" the Mosaic laws meant.
Or you've forgotten that I don't accept something automatically because it appears in the New Testament. I agree that the New Testament attributes a number of sins to Jesus, contrary to the claim of sinlessness.

But my point remains the same that Jesus did not come to legislate.
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HeiGou
02-27-2006, 05:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Or you've forgotten that I don't accept something automatically because it appears in the New Testament. I agree that the New Testament attributes a number of sins to Jesus, contrary to the claim of sinlessness.

But my point remains the same that Jesus did not come to legislate.
I have not forgotten. You think not stoning a woman taken in sin is itself a sin? Wow. That is a surprise. Mercy is usually a good thing.

Then you and most Christians would agree that Jesus did not come to legislate. But then you have just added a third option - either Jesus was God and could transcend Mosaic law, or he was confused about many things or the NT lies about what he did and said.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-27-2006, 07:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
You think not stoning a woman taken in sin is itself a sin?
I wasn't referring to the specific example you cited, but a great number of examples, such as those listed by some Jewish writers here:
http://www.messiahtruth.com/sinless.html

Then you and most Christians would agree that Jesus did not come to legislate. But then you have just added a third option - either Jesus was God and could transcend Mosaic law, or he was confused about many things or the NT lies about what he did and said.
The last option is closer to the truth - the account of Jesus in the gospels is not reliable.
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Sister Khadija
02-27-2006, 08:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Moss,

I was originally planning to answer to a previous post you wrote but then I discovered this last one. You are giving me a lot of work...;)

You say "jesus PBUH preached Islam". I have heard that of course said many times before, but I want to analyze it a little bit. If by that you mean Jesus preached the oneness of God and the brotherhood of men, you are right. Those are things that Jesus and Islam have in common.
True as other posts mentioned Jesus (PBUH) was not a Law Prophet. Of all the Prophets only two were to establish the Laws. Moses and Muhammed (Peace be upon them). Jesus (PBUH) was fulfilling the Mosiac laws. No previous books name Christianty or Islam. All Prophets taught Islam by preaching oneness with GOD and brotherhood of man. Religion was not completed until GOD annouced Islam to Mankind in the Qur'an.

format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
But you know very well that Islam preached a lot of other things. It authorized men to have four wives. It ordered the hand of the thief to be cut off. When did Jesus preached all that? If Jesus NEVER said anything like that and actually his teachings can be understood to be in complete opposition to those regulations, how can you say that Jesus preached Islam?
With regards to the 4 wives. In those days they had hundreds of wives so making them limit it to 4 was a blessing to stop this practice. But, the Qur'an basically tells you to have one wife.

The rules are so complicated for more than one wife that man would have a 99% chance not to be able to do it. The reason for it is if man would follow all rules, then the women would agree as well and there would be nothing wrong. Reason for it is if half the men of the world are gone what would the women do? Islamically they would be helping the women and vice versa and all has to be fair and equal.

Honestly, 99% of man couldn't follow all the rules so it says it is better off with one only. But in the old days they had to adjust from 100 to 4 which was drastic and helped them to learn and be closer to Allah SWT.

The cut of the hand rule sounds better than our rules of rape someone get 3 years in jail and 5 years probation. The criminals adapt to jail time and they get frr room and board and oh, wait, if they get murder live 40 years in jail and then be put to sleep.

If I knew my hand would be cut off, I wouldn't do the crime in the first place.

Jesus prayed to GOD, and so do I. I no longer pray to Jesus like I used to as a Christian because he is a teacher/Prophet. We should ONLY pray to GOD.

Jesus bowed in prayer as in Islam.

Since Jesus was removed from the Earth, everything went haywire over the 600 years before Muhammed showed up. All the Pagans took over Abrahams Kaaba and all important historical sites.

GOD knew the world was so messed up and was only gonna get worse by 2006 and needed to help mankind. So, we did not get new rules, rather we are redirected to do what Abraham was told to do.

In my 20 years of Christianty I know and feel and see GOD working more than ever in my 5 months as a Muslimah ALHAMDULLIAH!

I have had supernatural infuences of GOD help me in ways you would think are wierd. The more I am connected with GOD, the more he helps me in a pyhsical state with proof I can see. And you intuition works in overdrive ALHAMDULLIAH!

Salaam,
SisterKhadija
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Eric H
02-27-2006, 08:43 PM
Greetings and peace,

Jesus gave us a new commandment at the last supper, ‘love one another as I have loved you, by this all men will know that you are my disciples’

Muslims and Christians seem to compete against each other, but what is getting in the way of Muslims and Christians loving each other, we both recognise Jesus.

In the spirit of seeking greater interfaith friendships

Eric
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Sister Khadija
02-28-2006, 12:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace,

Jesus gave us a new commandment at the last supper, ‘love one another as I have loved you, by this all men will know that you are my disciples’

Muslims and Christians seem to compete against each other, but what is getting in the way of Muslims and Christians loving each other, we both recognise Jesus.

In the spirit of seeking greater interfaith friendships

Eric

Peace be with you Eric,

This is becasue there is a Triology going on here, Book of Moses, Gospel of Jesus, and The Qur'an.

Christians have not finished the Trilogy.

When you watch a 3-part movie, you do not stop after the 2nd one do you?

Salaam,
Sister Khadija
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Turin Turambar
02-28-2006, 01:33 AM
Sister Khadija,

Your example is good but flawed. You say "Book of Moses, Gospel of Jesus, and The Qur'an" and that is the Trilogy you want me to follow.

The problem is that the equivalent Trilogy would be "The Lord of the Rings I, The Lord of the Rings II and Friday the 13th"

It is not a Trilogy, you see? The first and the second part match but the third has nothing to do with the previous two.

I will stick to the movies I like.
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gamblerxix
02-28-2006, 01:37 AM
Hello, peace on everyone:

I just have to say this "the only religion that makes sense which is Islam. " which was quoted by a christian guy that was talking to my brother. That doesn't really help, but after reading this thread it just made me. Sorry again , you all can contiune on with your debate.
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Sister Khadija
02-28-2006, 07:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Sister Khadija,

Your example is good but flawed. You say "Book of Moses, Gospel of Jesus, and The Qur'an" and that is the Trilogy you want me to follow.

The problem is that the equivalent Trilogy would be "The Lord of the Rings I, The Lord of the Rings II and Friday the 13th"

It is not a Trilogy, you see? The first and the second part match but the third has nothing to do with the previous two.

I will stick to the movies I like.

Peace be with you,

HOLY SCRIPTURES (The Books of Allah)
Allah, Glory to be Him, provided every one of His prophets with books which He revealed to them. Those books or scriptures contained the tenets and fundamentals of religion as well as the instructions and commandments of Allah conveyed to various nations through His Messengers. The holy books were meant to be records of religion so that the various people and nations of the world might refer to them to know the ordinances and laws revealed by Allah and comply with them.

On the one hand, we are required to believe in all revealed books at large. On the other, we are required to believe in certain books which Allah told us He had revealed, namely:

1. The Qur'an, revealed to Muhammad;
2. The Gospel, revealed to Jesus;
3. The Psalms, revealed to David;
4. The Torah, revealed to Moses;
5. The Tablets, of Ibrahim (i.e., Abraham) and Moses (May peace and blessing of Allah be upon them).
Although books revealed to prophets before Muhammad (the last Messenger of Allah) were just temporary revelations each addressed to a particular tribe or nation, yet it is incumbent upon by Muslims to believe in them in general, and in the Qur'an on detailed basis in particular. The Qur'an is the final and comprehensive Scripture. It is the only book of Allah which has remained free from distortion and change, and has been transmitted to us whole in the most reliable ways and in its original text-a feature not enjoyed by any of the earlier books of revelation.

To be a believer of GOD we must accpet all his Prophets, all his creations, all his Books.

If you fail to recognise one thing from GOD, then you are not a beliver. It is all or nothing. You can not pick and choose what you like and don't like. You either take ALL he gave you or you might as well deny him becasue you did not accept everything he gave you.

My question:

Which books do you beleive were sent to us through GOD?

1. The Qur'an, revealed to Muhammad;
2. The Gospel, revealed to Jesus;
3. The Psalms, revealed to David;
4. The Torah, revealed to Moses;
5. The Tablets, of Ibrahim (i.e., Abraham) and Moses (May peace and blessing of Allah be upon them).




Salaam,
Sister Khadija
Reply

Muslim Knight
03-01-2006, 01:48 AM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Sister Khadija,

Your example is good but flawed. You say "Book of Moses, Gospel of Jesus, and The Qur'an" and that is the Trilogy you want me to follow.

The problem is that the equivalent Trilogy would be "The Lord of the Rings I, The Lord of the Rings II and Friday the 13th"

It is not a Trilogy, you see? The first and the second part match but the third has nothing to do with the previous two.

I will stick to the movies I like.
I'd rather not see it that way. It's more like One God (Adam's New Hope), Trinity (Paul strikes back), One God (Return of Muhammad). So which book does not belong in this Trilogy? We all knew who the antagonist of the story here...

:w:
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sevenxtrust
03-01-2006, 01:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace,

Jesus gave us a new commandment at the last supper, ‘love one another as I have loved you, by this all men will know that you are my disciples’

Muslims and Christians seem to compete against each other, but what is getting in the way of Muslims and Christians loving each other, we both recognise Jesus.

In the spirit of seeking greater interfaith friendships

Eric
Interfaith--What? Can the light and the dark be present continually and unite as one. God forbid. Thats why the Muslims think we Christians are crazy, God is a God of Love in context. Study your Bible brother, a workman that needeth not to be a shamed.
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Muslim Knight
03-01-2006, 02:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevenxtrust
Can the light and the dark be present continually and unite as one. God forbid.
Right! Can Jesus' message of One God and Paul's doctrine of Trinity be present continually and unite as one? God forbid!

Study your Bible brother, a workman that needeth not to be a shamed
Right again! Study your Bible, brother...
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sevenxtrust
03-01-2006, 02:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslim knight
Right! Can Jesus' message of One God and Paul's doctrine of Trinity be present continually and unite as one? God forbid!



Right again! Study your Bible, brother...
You do NOT understand because you do NOT have the SPIRIT of the TRUE and LIVING GOD. First comes death, then the JUDGMENT!! Woe unto you for following the idol of a non-exsitent God. I am praying for you, that you will come to the cross of repentance. I have done my job in warning you..so be it!!
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cool_jannah
03-01-2006, 02:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevenxtrust
Interfaith--What? Can the light and the dark be present continually and unite as one. God forbid. Thats why the Muslims think we Christians are crazy, God is a God of Love in context.
I understand that Christianity can never bring a soul closer to his Lord. How often does darkness or falsehood plays a role in unifying people?

As the Glorious Qur'an says:
17:81And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."

format_quote Originally Posted by sevenxtrust
God is a God of Love in context.
Allah, Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is The Most Merciful The Most Loving and The Most Gracious and The Most Caring in every context

at the same time HIS punishments are the Most severe, so that no one can ever say that my punishment is worst than the punishment of Allah, Subhanahu wa Ta'alaa
:)

mind you..im not contradicting myself:)
its one of the Atrributes of Allah that He Avenges.
Al-Muntaqim
  • The Avenger, The One who victoriously prevails over His enemies and punishes them for their sins. It may mean the One who destroys them.
HE IS OUR MASTER AND HE IS THE OWNER OF ALL POWER AND GLORY.
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cool_jannah
03-01-2006, 02:16 AM
and please dont reply me saying that God in the Bible does not punish!
I can let you know what your bible says about the severe punishment from your Lord..

this ain't fun...we need some more christians in the discussion!
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cool_jannah
03-01-2006, 02:17 AM
:)
:rollseyes

:?
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sevenxtrust
03-01-2006, 02:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by cool_jannah
and please dont reply me saying that God in the Bible does not punish!
I can let you know what your bible says about the severe punishment from your Lord..

this ain't fun...we need some more christians in the discussion!
Thats what I mean by context, he will punish them that come against him and deny him. Many of you tell me you have peace. You say I am deceived yet you are at war, check your hearts and see!!!!! How can a mortal man be at peace and war. (This is a faithful saying, from my God)
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cool_jannah
03-01-2006, 02:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevenxtrust
Thats Many of you tell me you have peace. You say I am deceived yet you are at war, check your hearts and see!!!!! How can a mortal man be at peace and war. (This is a faithful saying, from my God)
err..:? ...im sorry my english is bad...can you rephrase that and explain what do you precisely mean by saying that:rollseyes
u seem to know the art of generalization pretty well there...
'we all muslims are at war':rollseyes ...so therefore we are evil:rollseyes
it seems you are into philosophy of mortal men...

i dunno what you meant by all of those nice sayings up there..but let me tell you this....the Mujahideen are in peace at all times...they dont care about the luxuries of life..so is every single believer(because he has trust in Allah)

the people who are frustrated the most are the disbelievers, people who have a lot of fame and money, arrogant and ignorant people..and their likes

and dont judge the level of tranquility believers are in! please..thats none of your business
we know how we feel when we stand infront of our Creator 5 times a day - just because He asked us to...its like a bliss...a true feeling of peace and tranquility when we put our foreheads down in front of the Greatest Master -Allah, to Whom all Praise is due.
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moujahid
03-01-2006, 02:42 AM
:Alhumdill

Mashallh CoolJannah...everything u said was so true...:thumbs_up
we thank Allah, Subhanahu wa Ta'ala for making us Muslims and true believers
..really unfortunate are those who are deprived of the true understanding of Islam. what a loss!:skeleton:
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Muslim Knight
03-01-2006, 11:17 AM
We thank Allah for calling us to His religion, Islam. From Him comes Salaam and with Him is Salaam.
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Eric H
03-01-2006, 12:06 PM
Greetings and peace sevenxtrust;
Interfaith--What? Can the light and the dark be present continually and unite as one. God forbid.
Is Christianity one body?

The things that separate Christianity are the same as the things that separate people of all faiths, we have a lack of love for each other and we would rather compete, and through competition comes conflict.

We must learn to celebrate all Gods creation, we must learn to love all Gods creation, and he created people with the freedom to be atheists, Muslims, Hindu and even Christians.

In the spirit of seeking interfaith relations,

Eric
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sevenxtrust
03-01-2006, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace sevenxtrust;

Is Christianity one body?

The things that separate Christianity are the same as the things that separate people of all faiths, we have a lack of love for each other and we would rather compete, and through competition comes conflict.

We must learn to celebrate all Gods creation, we must learn to love all Gods creation, and he created people with the freedom to be atheists, Muslims, Hindu and even Christians.

In the spirit of seeking interfaith relations,

Eric
I agree, the Bible says we are ONE BODY IN CHRIST, I am not fighting,,but where do you get this from the Bible. Please use scripture. You are giving Christianity and God a bad name. If you believe God wants you to be friends with other religions and pagans fine. I do agree about hating the sin but loving the sinner. Also that we are one body (IN) key word) Christ. We speak of course to other religions to witness for Christ. (ie.) when Christ ate with sinners and publicans only to spread his word and help them. He never took part in other religions..never...
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Eric H
03-02-2006, 09:09 PM
Greetings and peace sevenxtrust;

I look on my faith as a gift from God, I find a great sense of peace through Christ.

When I talk with many Muslims they seem to have this same sense that their faith is from God, and God chooses whom he wills, and they find peace.

The same God created all people and so we have a great responsibility for each other as children of the same God.

If Muslims choose to stay Muslims then I can still love them for who they are, I do not have to change them. The greatest gift a Muslim can give me is freedom so that I may strive towards a greater relationship with God and my neighbours through the Catholic faith.

If I desire this freedom from Muslims then I should reciprocate.

In the spirit of striving for greater interfaith friendships

Eric
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songinwind
03-03-2006, 11:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace sevenxtrust;

I look on my faith as a gift from God, I find a great sense of peace through Christ.

When I talk with many Muslims they seem to have this same sense that their faith is from God, and God chooses whom he wills, and they find peace.

The same God created all people and so we have a great responsibility for each other as children of the same God.

If Muslims choose to stay Muslims then I can still love them for who they are, I do not have to change them. The greatest gift a Muslim can give me is freedom so that I may strive towards a greater relationship with God and my neighbours through the Catholic faith.

If I desire this freedom from Muslims then I should reciprocate.

In the spirit of striving for greater interfaith friendships

Eric


:) what a nice reply
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anis_z24
03-03-2006, 12:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar

The sooner Muslims recognize this truth and the fact that their Golden Era will never be back, the better.

For all of us.
Salam
Thats what you think, but the Islamic civilization rose before at odds that are unimaginable. Why is it called the golden era, becasue the world never saw any goodness of that scale before. if it worked before why not again.
Why do you think it won't come back. We know that it will rise again and only a matter of patients and hard work.
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Turin Turambar
03-04-2006, 04:23 AM
anis_z24,

I posted the answer previously. Islam was good for a period of history in which military power was very important, because Islam encourages military activities. That is why Muslims call themselves "soldiers for Allah"

But today military activities aren't important. Science, technology and economic development are. And for those things Islam is not good. See how many scientists or businessmen in the world are Muslims. You don't need soldiers anymore, but that is what Islam is producing. So the result is that Muslims countries are falling behind in everything. Don't believe me, check the Internet. More "soldiers for Allah" means more poverty in Muslim countries.
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waji
03-04-2006, 06:44 AM
Asalam u Alikum and Peace
Turin, Eric,Seven and others would u like to answer me
Well what is Truth
One which remains Truth for ever
or ur answer..........
The Question is on what basis you are making comments
i mean is there one Bible in the world or u know ur self how many are in this world right now if u call bible truth than why and what happen to the truth that it split up in so many bibles
on the other hand there is only one Quran in the whole world
someone in the earlier post said that in Christianity everyone is free so thats what freedom to spoil the Truth what u say is Truth
u know what we Belief, why Allah sent the prophets after each other
Well Allah wants to keep the Truth of him in this world so he sent the prophets when prophets died (not included Issa (Jesus)) so people made changes in the holy scripts and books so there was no Truth left in the world so time by time the Prophets were sent to teach people about the Truth and When Prophet Muhammad(S.A.W) came there was no Truth then Allah sent him with Quran and Quran was sent for not to be Changed thats why Quran is the Same what it was 1427years ago and will not be changed till the end of this world this is also the eg for bing The Last Prophet from Allah and no one will come after him.
Please Think with open mind and find what is Truth
Again Do have the same Bible what Jesus gave to u
if not then Think What u had done with the Truth

Peace
Walikum as Salam
Reply

songinwind
03-04-2006, 07:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
anis_z24,

I posted the answer previously. Islam was good for a period of history in which military power was very important, because Islam encourages military activities. That is why Muslims call themselves "soldiers for Allah"

But today military activities aren't important. Science, technology and economic development are. And for those things Islam is not good. See how many scientists or businessmen in the world are Muslims. You don't need soldiers anymore, but that is what Islam is producing. So the result is that Muslims countries are falling behind in everything. Don't believe me, check the Internet. More "soldiers for Allah" means more poverty in Muslim countries.

I have seen a lot of things posted about islam. but this by far is the most ill-logical:) ......"Islam was good for a period of time":) ....Where do u get your information???? I can't believe your logic here, and the sad thing is "you actually believe it":rollseyes
Check the internet???
How about we continue to read the Quran....and live by the quran/sunnah...and you keep check on the internet...:) ......we all will be smiling, while you are checking....and bring proof of your claims...
peace to u
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-04-2006, 04:32 PM
Hi Turin,
Waiting for your response.
Reply

Turin Turambar
03-06-2006, 05:20 AM
songinwind,

You should stop reading your book, at least for a while, and check the reality in the world. You would see that Muslim countries are the poorest and least free nations of the world. This is not a coincidence. The Islamic creed doesn't encourage people devoting their time to scientific or economic activities and doesn't encourage freedom and democracy. In the past that wasn't important, because winning battles with swords was all that mattered. That is why Islam was good back then and you had that Islamic Empire that everybody mentions.

Today is different. Swords aren't useful anymore. Science is. And Muslim countries have no scientists, because children instead of attending modern schools, attend madrassas. When they leave the madrassas, they know a lot about the Quran, but nothing that could be useful for themselves or their societies in the modern, real, world.
Reply

abdul Majid
03-06-2006, 05:28 AM
reading Quran, and doing good deeds, and praying to God, that is sufficent for us, where does it say we incourage military activities?????

As for science, math and so forth, the numbering system that your using today , was inventing by muslims, so was alot of other things, in the long run my friend life isnt everything, we believe in the hereafter.....witch is forever

so we dont need to be rich, or anything of what you say..its ok

you can have it !!!
Reply

Turin Turambar
03-06-2006, 05:33 AM
abdul Majid,

But how can Islam be true if its followers are poor, ignorant and weak? How can God want that for his followers? Isn't that poverty and weakness a proof that islam is not true?

Did you ever take a look at the websites of Ibn Warraq or Ali Sina? They used to be Muslims.....
Reply

abdul Majid
03-06-2006, 05:37 AM
First i dont like the fact you are callings ISLAM's followers ignorant, and weak...you are getting offensive now , so slow down...

and second dont give me an example of TWO people, whats that gonna represent everyone???

in that case i can give you many for your religion!!!

WHy do u think faith is supposed to make you rich??
Reply

waji
03-06-2006, 07:16 AM
Asalam u Alikum and Peace
Mr Turin
i asked u a simple question that can u prove that Bible is the word of God
i thought u didn't understand my question
do tell me if not, i m waiting for the answer
Peace
Walikum as Salam
Reply

E'jaazi
03-06-2006, 07:31 AM
Let me state a few facts (not opinions) for Turin:

Fact #1 - The Christianity that you practice today is not the Christianity that was practiced long ago. Jesus and his apostles were JEWS! When the apostles went out into the world to teach what Jesus had left them, they did not start a new or different religion. They were JEWS and as such remained that way. They were initially called "Christians" because they were being mocked for being followers of Christ.

Fact #2 - Christians today do not believe they must follow the law. That is because they follow Paul and not Jesus. If you really believe that Jesus is the one you should follow, then you would follow the law as Jesus states in Mathew 5:17. Pay close attention to the part where it says,"....until heaven and earth pass...." which is spoken about in the book of Revelations and has not yet happend.

Fact #3 - When the Prophet (Sallalahu Alayhe wa Sallam) went to spread Islam and was met with aggression, that is when he fought his enemies. Some stories have been twisted to make it seem otherwise, but such is not the case.



"Oh Allah! Help me to remember You, be thankful to You and worship You well." Ameen.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-06-2006, 04:46 PM
Hi Turin,
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Hi Turin,
Waiting for your response.
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
But how can Islam be true if its followers are poor, ignorant and weak? How can God want that for his followers? Isn't that poverty and weakness a proof that islam is not true?
Well the same is true for Christians in Ecuador. How can God allow all those Christians to be poor and weak?

Did you ever take a look at the websites of Ibn Warraq or Ali Sina? They used to be Muslims.....
1. No one even knows who these people are. For all we know they could be some Christians posing as former Muslims. Unlike the Christian PRIESTS who have accepted Islam and are well known.
2. Ali Sina himself has admitted that he was never a true Muslim. Ibn Warraq's situation is the same.

I noticed that you failed to comment on Dr. Jeremiah's refutation of Ibn Warraq.
Reply

Turin Turambar
03-07-2006, 02:52 AM
abdul Majid,

I can assure you that I wasn't trying to be offensive. I am sure that there are many educated Muslims and probably they are posting in this forum like you are.

But it is a fact that on average Muslims are poor, weak and ignorant when compared to non-Muslims. What I am saying is that that fact makes it difficult to believe that God is still guiding Muslims as His favorites. Perhaps God has other favorites today. Perhaps those who live in freedom and democracy are His favorites now.

Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina are not the only ones. In their websites they list many others who have left Islam. Most of them don't post their real name because Muslims can get very violent when somebody leaves their faith.

But violence doesn't mean truth.
Reply

waji
03-07-2006, 04:08 AM
Asalam u Alikum and Peace
im still waiting for the answer
Walikum as Salam
Reply

E'jaazi
03-07-2006, 04:51 AM
Turin - I'm still waiting for you to respond to my post!
Reply

Eric H
03-07-2006, 07:54 AM
Greetings and peace Turin Turambar;

But it is a fact that on average Muslims are poor, weak and ignorant when compared to non-Muslims.

What I am saying is that that fact makes it difficult to believe that God is still guiding Muslims as His favorites.
I feel distressed that you should use poverty as a reason against Muslims and Islam.

God has not abandoned the poor, there are so many verses in the Bible about justice for the poor, and we tend to ignore them when we live our own lives in comfort. I do believe it will be the poor and oppressed who will have an easier time getting into heaven. It is the rich who have abandoned the poor and we exploit poor countries simply because we can.

If you earn over five thousand US. Dollars a year that puts you in the top ten percent of the richest people in the world. About a billion people starve on a dollar a day through exploitation.

Coffee is probably one of the most exploited commodities traded, the price of coffee in the shops is about three times the price it was twenty years ago thanks to inflation. But the growers only receive about a fifth of the price they were getting twenty years ago.

This would be like a person in the third world living on a low wage of ten pounds a week twenty years ago and only getting two pounds a week today for doing the same job. We wouldn’t put up with this in our rich democracies but we force the people in the third world to accept these conditions.

In the UK a 100 gram jar of coffee retails for around £2.50 and the growers get about one penny of that. The coffee adverts on tv. are almost obscene suggesting theirs is a luxury product. Many coffee growers cannot afford to pay wages to their workers.

We could comfortably pay another five pence a jar and give the growers at least what they were getting twenty years ago, but we don’t.

There is no justice for the poor in this world because they are so easy to exploit. You only have to look at the thousand billion dollars a year spent on the military; to know that rich countries do not want to help the poor.

Poverty is possibly the worst argument that you could use against Islam.

In the spirit of seeking justice for all people

Eric
Reply

Ghazi
03-07-2006, 11:04 AM
Salaam

Jesus and his apostles were JEWS!
Jesus was not a jew he was a muslim.
Reply

Turin Turambar
03-08-2006, 02:21 AM
Eric H,

I share your compassion for the poor of this world. However, you have to understand that Islam is different from Christianity in that it claims to be a total and perfect social and political system. Thus, it is valid to criticize Islam resorting to the argument of poverty and oppression exactly as it was valid to criticize the Soviet Union on the basis of the same arguments. Since the system is applied in many places and only generates poverty and oppression, we know that it has to be wrong.

But if you want to focus on other aspects of Islam you are of course welcome to.
Reply

Turin Turambar
03-08-2006, 02:30 AM
blackjubba,

1.- The Christianity we practice today is the same one the Apostles practiced back then. The only difference is that we have had two thousand years to develop a more perfect understanding of those teachings. In Christian countries we are always improving our thinking, never going back and imitating a long-forgotten past as Muslims do.

2.- We follow Jesus, who is the one in which the law was perfected. In that sense we are certainly following the law. Once again, we Christians look forward, that is why we have progressed socially and technologically. We are always improving our thinking and acting.

3.- When I say that Muhammad and his successors were aggressors, I am using the Muslim sources. Check in the websites of Ibn Warrraq and Ali Sina. They have a very detailed description of everything that Muhammad did.
Reply

*Hana*
03-08-2006, 03:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
blackjubba,


1.- The Christianity we practice today is the same one the Apostles practiced back then.
The only difference is that we have had two thousand years to develop a more perfect understanding of those teachings.
In Christian countries we are always improving our thinking, never going back and imitating a long-forgotten past as Muslims do.
So, what you meant to say was, 'The Christianity we practice today is NOT the same the Apostles practiced back then' I'm sure this is what you meant, as saying you have developed a more perfect understanding over the Apostles who were taught by Jesus, pbuh, HIMSELF, would be not only arrogant to the max, but a contradiction to your very first sentence. Unlike Christianity, Islam doesn't change with the whims and fancies of every John, Paul and Preacher through the centuries. Islam has remained true since the day it was revealed, Alhamdulillah :D

So, tell me turin, what is the Christian fast called....you know, fasting like how Jesus, pbuh, did? And, would you mind explaining how you prostrate in prayer like Jesus, pbuh, did without banging your head on the pew in front of you? :rollseyes Oh, and you know how Jesus, pbuh, and the Apostles performed ablution....would you mind explaining the procedure Christians follow, I can't seem to remember. :-[

2.- We follow Jesus, who is the one in which the law was perfected. In that sense we are certainly following the law. Once again, we Christians look forward, that is why we have progressed socially and technologically. We are always improving our thinking and acting.
You contradicted yourself...for explanation see above. But, while you're on it...please show us the verse from the Bible, (God's word), where it says, "only follow what I say until you are able to improve upon my teachings?" No wonder you're so arrogant at times....you think you are above God in your thinking and actions. (I don't want to be standing too close to you when the lightening bolt strikes. :muddlehea

3.- When I say that Muhammad and his successors were aggressors, I am using the Muslim sources. Check in the websites of Ibn Warrraq and Ali Sina. They have a very detailed description of everything that Muhammad did.
I'm quite sure brother ansar responded to your example of Warraq and Sina. If you would read the posts of the people that took the time to respond to you I'm sure you would have a clear understanding of what I am referring to. :)

Hana
Reply

i_m_tipu
03-08-2006, 03:42 AM
Turin Turambar is a hero

lot of people wating for his answer

format_quote Originally Posted by i_m_tipu
Disappointed No Answer or reply
Whatsoever
it is nearly 4 days :X
Reply

Turin Turambar
03-08-2006, 03:47 AM
Hana_Aku,

I will be brief, because it is late. You say "Unlike Christianity, Islam doesn't change with the whims and fancies of every John, Paul and Preacher through the centuries"

Exactly, Islam doesn't change, that is the problem. It stoned women back then and it stones women right now.

If I were you, I would demand some changes. It is high time.
Reply

Turin Turambar
03-08-2006, 03:55 AM
i_m_tipu,

What should I answer exactly? I have answered many things lately and I am kind of lost.
Reply

i_m_tipu
03-08-2006, 04:04 AM
ur (Turin Turambar) comment make me laugh

so u beleive law of God must be change
so it is understandable that ur thought is better than God

so who is gone a change God Law.......Human or God???

And other thing mr. Islam(thoose have good knowledge of Islam) respect woman lot more than u ever see one to respect woman

and a subject of stoned
this is not for only woman also for every one


Human can Challenge God law also can Change it
but i Challenge ur law never stop Adultery, Corruption, u can't stop anything
Beleive me the Culture of the current world shall distroy every good thing and good felling and real happiness.
Reply

E'jaazi
03-08-2006, 04:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

Jesus was not a jew he was a muslim.


You are right. I used that term just for the sake of the arguement I was putting forth.
Reply

E'jaazi
03-08-2006, 06:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
blackjubba,

1.- The Christianity we practice today is the same one the Apostles practiced back then. The only difference is that we have had two thousand years to develop a more perfect understanding of those teachings. In Christian countries we are always improving our thinking, never going back and imitating a long-forgotten past as Muslims do.

2.- We follow Jesus, who is the one in which the law was perfected. In that sense we are certainly following the law. Once again, we Christians look forward, that is why we have progressed socially and technologically. We are always improving our thinking and acting.

3.- When I say that Muhammad and his successors were aggressors, I am using the Muslim sources. Check in the websites of Ibn Warrraq and Ali Sina. They have a very detailed description of everything that Muhammad did.

In # 1 of your post, you have admitted to changing things. Which is why I stated that you do not practice the same Christianity as the Apostle's did. If you did, you would not have changed anything or felt the need to modernize your faith. It is that type of thinking that has allowed Modern Day Christians (I don't mean you per se) to engage in conduct that is against their own faith - i.e. same sex marriages and women preachers! I could go on, but we already know all the things that have now been allowed by some modern day Christians. Muslims such as myself embrace what you call the forgotten past, because Allah has told us in the Qu'ran, that HE has perfected our religion. If Allah (God) has perfected mans religion for him, then who are we to make modern day changes that WE feel are best, just to suite our desires?

In # 2 you use the term "in that sense." Yes, maybe in that sense, but in reality, most Christians do not follow the Law, citing the teachings of Paul as their reasoning.

In # 3 - I need to research those sources. I believe them to be inaccurate and exaggerated, but I'll get back to you on this one. I cannot comment on something I have never read.
Reply

*Hana*
03-08-2006, 03:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Hana_Aku,

I will be brief, because it is late. You say "Unlike Christianity, Islam doesn't change with the whims and fancies of every John, Paul and Preacher through the centuries"

Exactly, Islam doesn't change, that is the problem. It stoned women back then and it stones women right now.

If I were you, I would demand some changes. It is high time.
Really?? Thankfully, I'm not you. I'm not so arrogant as to think I know better than my creator. I demand nothing from Allah, swt. And it's your line of thinking that has destroyed your own bible. So, please enlighten us poor, uneducated, oppressed Muslims and teach us all how Christians came to know more than God, and not just know more, but know better and, according to you, are more logical and better behaved. Can't wait to hear that.

Yes, there are stoning punishments for both men and women. And, it's been over a week and I'm still waiting to hear from you regarding my comments about your so called "Christian Government". However, I guess you've already answered that now that I think about it. Christians believe they know better than God and just change what they don't like. :rollseyes

Good luck with that on Judgement Day.

Hana
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-08-2006, 05:17 PM
Hi Turin,
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Hi Turin,
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Hi Turin,
Waiting for your response.
Reply

sargon
03-08-2006, 06:53 PM
:sl:
About the passage where Jesus didn't stone the girl, one of the reasons could be because you need witnesses. If all the witnesses leave then there is no allegation, thus no reason to stone. However the gospels are written by men...

All inspiration is divine, the level or purity of it's divinity will never matter, because the Quran is the word of Allah (Swt).

Inspiration comes from Allah (swt) alone, even if it's the shaytan inspiring something bad, it's still from Allah (swt). If it's good or bad, all is from Allah (swt), thus the gospels can never be a source to lead life by when you have the Quran, which is directly from Allah.

Have you read the Quran? I reverted not too long ago and I'm currently reading it, it's better to actually research the religion from that religion's source.

For example, if I were to study Christianity I'm not going to ask a few Atheists that used to be Christian. I also wouldn't ask the Jews that criticise Christianity. It's like learning football from people that hate football.

Of course you can check it out, like in the cases of Ali Sina and Ibn Warraq, but after I looked at those websites and read some debates it's clear that all they do is take verses out of context, number one, and number two they use non-authentic hadeeths (a source of history that involves the actions and sayings of the prophet.)

I just want to let you know from first hand experience, going to those sites will brain wash almost anyone that's not Muslim or is uneducated or has weak faith. The way they debate over there is by slandering. They first attack the character of Mohammed then they attack your character.

You should learn from brother Ansar Al-'Adl, very knowledgable in refuting false claims :D :D
:w:
Reply

Nicola
03-08-2006, 07:50 PM
Christians believe they know better than God and just change what they don't like.
sorry I didn't know, I thought... I knew better than God

btw... I don't!
Reply

*Hana*
03-08-2006, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
sorry I didn't know, I thought... I knew better than God

btw... I don't!
That's the opinion of your fellow christian. Take it up with him.

Hana
Reply

renak
03-09-2006, 05:05 AM
Why do we have to compare Jesus and Mohammad? They were two very different individuals, sent by God. They each were sent to serve a different purpose.
Reply

Eric H
03-09-2006, 07:29 AM
Greetings and peace sargon,

About the passage where Jesus didn't stone the girl, one of the reasons could be because you need witnesses.
Here is the passage of John's Gospel and I think you may see a different message

John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
If all the witnesses leave then there is no allegation, thus no reason to stone. However the gospels are written by men...
The Gospel of John continues.

The Validity of Jesus' Testimony
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

I feel that Jesus was trying to put across a different message that we should look at our own sins before we judge other people. If we judge others and punish them then we may not leave so much room for God to judge them a second time for that sin. We should even strive to forgive others and pray for them so that we leave room for God to judge.

The message to forgive and not to judge others is indeed powerful.

In the spirit of seeking justice for all

Eric
Reply

Eric H
03-09-2006, 07:35 AM
Greetings and peace renak;

Why do we have to compare Jesus and Mohammad? They were two very different individuals, sent by God. They each were sent to serve a different purpose
We may each share in doing good deeds, and as you say if only we could stop competing against each other in faith; then life would indeed be better for all of us.

In the spirit of seeking interfaith friendships

Eric
Reply

islamictruth
03-09-2006, 09:55 AM
inappropriate
Reply

i_m_tipu
03-09-2006, 10:16 AM
:sl: and wellcome to this forum
sis islamictruth
i understand ur felling
but let share idea bwt beleiver and non-beleiver

beleive me insAllaah i will help both....
hope fr the best
Reply

HeiGou
03-09-2006, 10:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamictruth
inappropriate
Ummm, if I had to share Heaven with such a warm generous and friendly spirit, I think I'd take the Fires of Hell. No offense.

Speaking as someone who has never danced naked. I guess I'll have to now. To make sure.
Reply

*Hana*
03-09-2006, 11:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamictruth
inappropriate
Salam Alaikum:

I am also proud to be Muslim, however, that doesn't give me the right to generalize about other faiths and make false accusations. What you said was completely unfair and unnecessary. Coming from a completely christian background, and being completely surrounded by Christians I haven't found your statement to have much truth. There are good and bad everywhere, in all faiths. As far as who will burn in Hell...that judgement is for Allah, swt, alone.

As Muslims we must always show respect to all people, regardless of faith!

Wasalam
Hana
Reply

Cheb
03-09-2006, 11:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamictruth
inappropriate
Salam.
Sister please try to refrain from such bursts. We are here to discuss educate and learn, not to attack. Talking like that will get us no where.
Wasalam.
Reply

Nicola
03-09-2006, 11:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamictruth
inappropriate
The anger and hate in your heart that you have shown here is not what I expect God would wish.
I hope you find some peace.

btw Christians do not go around knocking on peoples door...I think you are mixing Christianity up with JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES who are not Christians in fact. Also the church is a building yes...but to a Christian the church is the Christian people, we ourselves.. our bodies are the Holy temple the church is the body of Christ.

Do you personaly know any Christians who shag drink and dance naked thats all u guys know, I don't do those things and I neither know any fellow Christians who do either.
This is like me saying all Muslims are suicide bombers and terrorists...It would be quite ignorant of me to say the least!
Reply

Eric H
03-09-2006, 11:54 AM
Greetings and peace be with you islamictruth and welcome to the forum;

We must pray for each other in the hope that we may all gain salvation'

In the spirit of seeking interfaith friendships

Eric
Reply

sargon
03-09-2006, 06:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace sargon,


Here is the passage of John's Gospel and I think you may see a different message

John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

The Gospel of John continues.

The Validity of Jesus' Testimony
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

I feel that Jesus was trying to put across a different message that we should look at our own sins before we judge other people. If we judge others and punish them then we may not leave so much room for God to judge them a second time for that sin. We should even strive to forgive others and pray for them so that we leave room for God to judge.

The message to forgive and not to judge others is indeed powerful.

In the spirit of seeking justice for all

Eric
:sl:
The law that Moses laid down isn't the laws of men, it was also sent by Allah so I don't know what Jesus (pbuh) could be talking about.

I think he's referring to the fact that you need 2 witnesses to refute a claim but I have no idea...

I understand the message of love and turn the other cheek, it's very appealing but had little effect on the world, didn't build a society, and isn't able to manage humankind as effectively as Islam, thus I chose Islam.

A good example would be if some crimes were comitted such as theft, and the burgler always got away because we kept forgiving him. This leads other people into thinking it's ok, and causes corruption in society.

In Islam when you have a chance to forgive it is a virtue to do so, but not when other people would be put in danger because you forgave someone.

[Pickthal 42:41] And whoso defendeth himself after he hath suffered wrong - for such, there is no way (of blame) against them.
[Pickthal 42:42] The way (of blame) is only against those who oppress mankind, and wrongfully rebel in the earth. For such there is a painful doom.
[Pickthal 42:43] And verily whoso is patient and forgiveth - lo! that, verily, is (of) the steadfast heart of things.

If someone did happen to steal from you, you could sit at the place of punishment cursing them, or hold a grudge, or you could forgive them. Either way actions need to be taken in society when people harm other people.
:w:
Reply

sevenxtrust
03-09-2006, 07:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sargon
:sl:
The law that Moses laid down isn't the laws of men, it was also sent by Allah so I don't know what Jesus (pbuh) could be talking about.

I think he's referring to the fact that you need 2 witnesses to refute a claim but I have no idea...

I understand the message of love and turn the other cheek, it's very appealing but had little effect on the world, didn't build a society, and isn't able to manage humankind as effectively as Islam, thus I chose Islam.

A good example would be if some crimes were comitted such as theft, and the burgler always got away because we kept forgiving him. This leads other people into thinking it's ok, and causes corruption in society.

In Islam when you have a chance to forgive it is a virtue to do so, but not when other people would be put in danger because you forgave someone.

[Pickthal 42:41] And whoso defendeth himself after he hath suffered wrong - for such, there is no way (of blame) against them.
[Pickthal 42:42] The way (of blame) is only against those who oppress mankind, and wrongfully rebel in the earth. For such there is a painful doom.
[Pickthal 42:43] And verily whoso is patient and forgiveth - lo! that, verily, is (of) the steadfast heart of things.

If someone did happen to steal from you, you could sit at the place of punishment cursing them, or hold a grudge, or you could forgive them. Either way actions need to be taken in society when people harm other people.
:w:
Turning the other cheek at crime and violence is not OK, because it does not demonstrate justice. What Christ meant by turning the other cheek is simply when a Christian is being persecuted, avoid retaliation. 2 Peter 1:20; (Yet) first (you must) understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is (a matter) of any personal or private or special interpretation (loosening,solving). The verse is simply stating to interpret scripture with scripture. Thats why there are some so called Christians that will over-look justice. Yes, we are to be forgiving as Christ was, that the Love of God can be shown.(example; the women caught in adultery). Christ did tell the women caught in adultery to go and SIN NO MORE..The fact is justice was there, Christ told her what she did was in fact a Sin. So now we have God's justice and mercy.
Reply

moujahid
03-10-2006, 05:47 AM
Christianity or Islam?
yeeeea...so i think its gotto be Islam for sure. Too much truth in it.
Reply

sargon
03-10-2006, 04:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevenxtrust
Turning the other cheek at crime and violence is not OK, because it does not demonstrate justice. What Christ meant by turning the other cheek is simply when a Christian is being persecuted, avoid retaliation. 2 Peter 1:20; (Yet) first (you must) understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is (a matter) of any personal or private or special interpretation (loosening,solving). The verse is simply stating to interpret scripture with scripture. Thats why there are some so called Christians that will over-look justice. Yes, we are to be forgiving as Christ was, that the Love of God can be shown.(example; the women caught in adultery). Christ did tell the women caught in adultery to go and SIN NO MORE..The fact is justice was there, Christ told her what she did was in fact a Sin. So now we have God's justice and mercy.
What do you do when someone steals from someone else? What if you keep saying go and sin no more, but he does?

In either case Jesus isn't here to make that decision (I don't think he ever did anyways), but for the sake of argument, he's not around anymore so what do you do?

In most countries you send the thief to jail, with a whole bunch of people that are just as bad or worse. There's more of a chance the person will repent and do good deeds if he's Muslim than if he's another faith or none at all. In America there are few who do accept Christ as their saviour in jail, and if they get out become good people, but the majority come out and are labelled as ex-cons, which makes it hard to find employment, etc...

So what do you do with thief, rapist, or murderer?
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IbnAbdulHakim
03-10-2006, 04:58 PM
chirstianity or islam.....

islam ofcourse


lol if only it was that simple ;D !!!

Laa illaha ilallah!!!!!
Reply

Malsidabym
03-10-2006, 11:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

Jesus was not a jew he was a muslim.
During the time that Jesus walked the earth, islam had not yet been founded, it was about 600 years too early for Jesus to be a muslim.
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Ghazi
03-10-2006, 11:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malsidabym
During the time that Jesus walked the earth, islam had not yet been founded, it was about 600 years too early for Jesus to be a muslim.
But you forget all the prophets preyed to allah they had diffrent books reveled to them but they shared a common thing they believed in allah so yeah I would call him a muslim, they're sharia was diffrent from ours so where the other prophets but we're all muslim.
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Eric H
03-11-2006, 04:18 PM
Greetings and peace sargon;

What do you do when someone steals from someone else? What if you keep saying go and sin no more, but he does?
Mankind is not very good at behaving and we do not seem brilliant in how we deal with criminals. We could execute them, cut their hands off, or give them life imprisonment, but others will always do the same hoping they will not get caught.

Criminals can fool the police and the judge; so God is the only one who can deal out justice fairly, and we will all have to stand before God sometime.

So in a way turning the other cheek can make sense if God puts everything right.

In the spirit of seeking justice for all

Eric
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Cheb
03-11-2006, 05:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace sargon;


Mankind is not very good at behaving and we do not seem brilliant in how we deal with criminals. We could execute them, cut their hands off, or give them life imprisonment, but others will always do the same hoping they will not get caught.

Criminals can fool the police and the judge; so God is the only one who can deal out justice fairly, and we will all have to stand before God sometime.

So in a way turning the other cheek can make sense if God puts everything right.

In the spirit of seeking justice for all

Eric
Greeting Eric,

Are you then saying that criminals should not be punished? (not puting words in your mouth, just asking).

If we turn the other cheek and allow such criminals to roam free then we are putting ourselves and innocent people in danger.
Peace.
Reply

Maimunah
03-11-2006, 05:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malsidabym
During the time that Jesus walked the earth, islam had not yet been founded, it was about 600 years too early for Jesus to be a muslim.
islam means submmision n surrender to the will of allah
a muslim is someone who submitted to the will of allah
jesus pbuh submitted himself to the will of allah :) so therefor he was a muslim
salaam
Reply

Nicola
03-11-2006, 07:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mashaallah
islam means submmision n surrender to the will of allah
a muslim is someone who submitted to the will of allah
jesus pbuh submitted himself to the will of allah :) so therefor he was a muslim
salaam
Hiya

so does that means all Jews and Christians are Muslims then?
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Kittygyal
03-11-2006, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
Hiya

so does that means all Jews and Christians are Muslims then?

no ofcoure it dun't :heated: :heated:


take care
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------
03-11-2006, 07:13 PM
*Deleted by author*
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Ghazi
03-11-2006, 07:15 PM
Salaam

This is one thing I've noticed about christians, it's all about love. in islam we also fear our lord.
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HeiGou
03-11-2006, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
This is one thing I've noticed about christians, it's all about love. in islam we also fear our lord.
Well Christianity has become more about love and less about fear. It used to be about fear too.

One thing I have noticed is that there are Christians who take Jesus' message as if it were secular - they believe Jesus was just a really interesting philosopher. There are no Muslims between the pious and the secular.
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Nicola
03-11-2006, 07:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

This is one thing I've noticed about christians, it's all about love. in islam we also fear our lord.
I do not know the Christians you know...but I and fellow Christians that I know...very much fear the God. He who has no fear of God has no faith in God, you can have no true repentance without fear of the Lord. When we say 'Chrsitians we are saved...what we are actually saved from is the wrath of God because without it...we would have to live without the presence of God..and that is unthinkable.

Doesn't God tell us..in
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.
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Ghazi
03-11-2006, 07:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
I do not know the Christians you know...but I and fellow Christians that I know...very much fear the God. He who has no fear of God has no faith in God, you can have no true repentance without fear of the Lord. When we say 'Chrsitians we are saved...what we are actually saved from is the wrath of God because without it...we would have to live without the presence of God..and that is unthinkable.

Doesn't God tell us..in
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Salaam

I stand corrected.
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Nicola
03-11-2006, 08:17 PM
Salaam

I stand corrected.
No actually you are right...after reading HeiGou thread...I realised it is true, alot of churches today...give the wrong message out not the one that Jesus gave us..but he did tell us this would happen in the future..that wolves would come in sheeps clothings to lead us astray! and that is what we see happening.

Some do not follow the truth but change it to include gay vicars..etc.
these people have been lead astray by Satan.
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Eric H
03-11-2006, 10:49 PM
Greetings and peace Cheb,

Are you then saying that criminals should not be punished? (not puting words in your mouth, just asking).
This is kind of confusing for me also, and I struggle to understand the true meaning.

I feel that scriptures are intended to change the individual, which means I should strive to change myself more than I should strive to change others.

Supposing I was a judge and I listened to the evidence of rape and decided the man was guilty and sentenced him to ten years in prison. Whilst he is in prison other people will be out in the community raping innocent women, when the man comes out of prison he could also reoffend.

Catching criminals and punishing them does not stop innocent people from being harmed, unless the criminal has a life changing experience and decides for themselves to turn away from crime.

If we turn the other cheek and allow such criminals to roam free then we are putting ourselves and innocent people in danger.
Innocent people are often the victims but man made law and punishments do not put a stop to this happening. Only God can put all things right and we have to trust God to do this for us.

I have taken a news story today about the Christian peacemaker Tom Fox, after his body was found in Iraq. To me the message is powerful it asks for reconciliation and peace after a possible murder.

Theological news from ekklesia

Fox's family has been informed of the tragic loss. There is no further news of the other hostages - Briton Norman Kember and Canadians Jim Loney and Harmeet Singh Sooden – who were seen recently on a video released to the al-Jazeera TV station.

Expressions of sorrow and solidarity have begun to pour into the headquarters of Christian Peacemaker Teams, following the news of Tom Fox’s death.

CPT, an ecumenically-supported ministry of the historic peace churches (Mennonites, Brethren in Christ and Quakers), says that the awful outcome of the kidnap saga will not deter their determination to confront Iraq’s occupation and cycle of violence with “unarmed love”.
At a hastily convened global press conference in Chicago this morning, the following statement was released the world’s media:

“In grief we tremble before God who wraps us with compassion. The death of our beloved colleague and friend pierces us with pain. Tom Fox's body was found in Baghdad yesterday.

“Christian Peacemaker Teams extends our deep and heartfelt condolences to the family and community of Tom Fox, with whom we have traveled so closely in these days of crisis.

“We mourn the loss of Tom Fox who combined a lightness of spirit, a firm opposition to all oppression, and the recognition of God in everyone.

“We renew our plea for the safe release of Harmeet Sooden, Jim Loney and Norman Kember.

“Each of our teammates has responded to Jesus's prophetic call to live out a nonviolent alternative to the cycle of violence and revenge.

“In response to Tom's passing, we ask that everyone set aside inclinations to vilify or demonize others, no matter what they have done.

“In Tom's own words: ‘We reject violence to punish anyone. We ask that there be no retaliation on relatives or property. We forgive those who consider us their enemies. We hope that in loving both friends and enemies and by intervening nonviolently to aid those who are systematically oppressed, we can contribute in some small way to transforming this volatile situation.’

“Even as we grieve the loss of our beloved colleague, we stand in the light of his strong witness to the power of love and the courage of nonviolence. That light reveals the way out of fear and grief and war.

“Through these days of crisis, Christian Peacemaker Teams has been surrounded and upheld by a great outpouring of compassion: messages of support, acts of mercy, prayers, and public actions offered by the most senior religious councils and by school children, by political leaders and by those organizing for justice and human rights, by friends in distant nations and by strangers near at hand.

“These words and actions sustain us.

“While one of our teammates is lost to us, the strength of this outpouring is not lost to God’s movement for just peace among all peoples.

“At the forefront of that support are strong and courageous actions from Muslim brothers and sisters throughout the world for which we are profoundly grateful.

“Their graciousness inspires us to continue working for the day when Christians speak up as boldly for the human rights of thousands Iraqis still detained illegally by the United States and United Kingdom.

“Such an outpouring of action for justice and peace would be a fitting memorial for Tom.

“Let us all join our voices on behalf of those who continue to suffer under occupation, whose loved ones have been killed or are missing, and in so doing may we hasten the day when both those who are wrongly detained and those who bear arms will return safely to their homes.

“In such a peace we will find solace for our grief.

“Despite the tragedy of this day, we remain committed to put into practice these words of Jim Loney: ‘With the waging of war, we will not comply. With the help of God’s grace, we will struggle for justice. With God's abiding kindness, we will love even our enemies.’

“We continue in hope for Jim, Harmeet and Norman's safe return home safe.”
The views expressed in this article do not necessarily represent the views of Ekklesia
In the spirit of seeking justice for all people

Eric
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sargon
03-12-2006, 02:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Innocent people are often the victims but man made law and punishments do not put a stop to this happening. Only God can put all things right and we have to trust God to do this for us.
:sl:
I couldn't agree more, but don't you see that's what Allah has given us with Islam? The very word Islam means submit to God! It's a system of life for all humans, for all times, in all situations. All the worlds problems (drugs, war, rape, abortion, poverty, depression, etc...) would all be fixed with Islam.

You have to visualize it!

First, imagine a society based soley on worship to God, education, and a good society. Now call that Islam, and you have Islam!!! That's what Islam means!
:w:
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HeiGou
03-12-2006, 02:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sargon
I couldn't agree more, but don't you see that's what Allah has given us with Islam? The very word Islam means submit to God! It's a system of life for all humans, for all times, in all situations. All the worlds problems (drugs, war, rape, abortion, poverty, depression, etc...) would all be fixed with Islam.

You have to visualize it!

First, imagine a society based soley on worship to God, education, and a good society. Now call that Islam, and you have Islam!!! That's what Islam means!
Well that is not quite what Islam means. Islam means a little bit more than that. But if you replaced the word "Islam" with "Christianity" no one on the Christian side would disagree, probably.

Exactly what is the Islamic solution to drugs, war, poverty, depression and abortion for that matter?

Finally what is the evidence that such a solution even exists? Christians talk about a Christian society all the time but I think most people think we will never see it because it is not practical. My opinion on an Islamic society is that either it has been tried many many times in the past (in which case it has failed) or it has either never been tried or was only tried for a few years while the Rashidun were alive (in which case it is not so much impractical as unrealistic).
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nur86
03-12-2006, 03:09 PM
one of the great reasons Muslims still believe in Islam is because of that "Golden Era" in which Islam was a leading civilization in the world.
islam is a religion. the reason why muslims still believe in islam is because of their faith in Allah, the only god. and it was never about the golden era where islam was a leading civilisation..
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Nicola
03-12-2006, 03:21 PM
Eric H said:
I feel that scriptures are intended to change the individual, which means I should strive to change myself more than I should strive to change others.
For me, I don't feel it's the scriptures that actually change the person...but the Holy Spirit living inside me..guiding me, teaching me..anyone can read the Bible but without the Holy Spirit instructing me giving me the revelations of Gods word..I would not be able to understand all those words of wisdom and words of knowledge, there actual meanings..and my life certainly would not have changed.
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Cheb
03-12-2006, 03:28 PM
Salam.
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace Cheb,



This is kind of confusing for me also, and I struggle to understand the true meaning.

I feel that scriptures are intended to change the individual, which means I should strive to change myself more than I should strive to change others.

Supposing I was a judge and I listened to the evidence of rape and decided the man was guilty and sentenced him to ten years in prison. Whilst he is in prison other people will be out in the community raping innocent women, when the man comes out of prison he could also reoffend.
That is why the death sentence exists, it is for those who do not repent and have committed an extremely sinful crime. At the same time you can use the same logic and say, if I did not sentence him and let him go free without any punishment, he will know that he cannot be touched and will likely do it again..And again...and again...


format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Catching criminals and punishing them does not stop innocent people from being harmed, unless the criminal has a life changing experience and decides for themselves to turn away from crime.
There is nothing that will stop innocent people from being harmed. That is not the point though, the law does not stop people from getting harmed, it GREATLY decreases the probability. We cant stop innocent people from getting harmed but we sure as well can try to decrease it. I mean really think about it. If no law existed and people were allowed to do what they wanted, with all the evil that exists in this world, dont you think you are going to have a much more chaotic world? Think about all these murderers and rapists in prisons being released.



format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Innocent people are often the victims but man made law and punishments do not put a stop to this happening. Only God can put all things right and we have to trust God to do this for us.
If God was going to do our work for us then why did HE put us on this Earth? Life would not be a test anymore. God has given us the ability to punish the bad and reward the good and we should use it. Simply turning the other cheek believing that HE will stop all this from happening is not realistic at all.

Peace.
Reply

Nicola
03-12-2006, 03:29 PM
islam is a religion. the reason why muslims still believe in islam is because of their faith in Allah, the only god. and it was never about the golden era where islam was a leading civilisation..


Chrsitians don't see Christianity has a religion but is a personal relationship with God
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Cheb
03-12-2006, 03:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
For me, I don't feel it's the scriptures that actually change the person...but the Holy Spirit living inside me..guiding me, teaching me..anyone can read the Bible but without the Holy Spirit instructing me giving me the revelations of Gods word..I would not be able to understand all those words of wisdom and words of knowledge, there actual meanings..and my life certainly would not have changed.
But dont you think it is not fair that you would be given such a gift while other wont?
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nur86
03-12-2006, 03:30 PM
but it is under religion universally.. islam is also about relationship with god..
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Nicola
03-12-2006, 03:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
But dont you think it is not fair that you would be given such a gift while other wont?
I am not the only one with the gift of the Holy Spirit...

Jesus tells us that anyone can recieve the gift...who ever ask, shall recieve.

I know lots of people who have it...
I've seen people recieve the gift of healing...be cured from cancer etc.
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Cheb
03-12-2006, 03:42 PM
By your logic then every devout Christian is living a good and righteous life... I do not think that is realistic. I really doubt it is as easy as simply asking.
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Nicola
03-12-2006, 03:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nur86
but it is under religion universally.. islam is also about relationship with god..
thanks for explaining...

I'm here to learn :)
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nur86
03-12-2006, 03:49 PM
im here to learn also. :)
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Nicola
03-12-2006, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
By your logic then every devout Christian is living a good and righteous life... I do not think that is realistic. I really doubt it is as easy as simply asking.

If they were devout to God, then they would be living a good and righteous life..
Nothing is possible without God...it is God giving us the Holy Spirit that makes us devout Chrisitans, without him we are nothing and can do no good works..etc...we can't have change in our heart or be devout without the Holy Spirit.

It isn't me who says it is as smiple as just asking for this...it is Jesus who tells us to ask and all I can say is that it really does work.
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Cheb
03-12-2006, 04:02 PM
Why would we ask Jesus (pbuh) and not God?
God is the ONE who put us on this Earth and HE is the ONE who has the power to do what you are saying.
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Kittygyal
03-12-2006, 04:04 PM
well obviously cuz u can ask Jesus cuz that's wot christians believe


take care
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Nicola
03-12-2006, 04:14 PM
well obviously cuz u can ask Jesus cuz that's wot christians believe


take care
what islamgyal said...

Basicly we ask Jesus and Jesus because he is our intersessor and in direct communication with God...asks the Father.
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Kittygyal
03-12-2006, 04:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
what islamgyal said...

Basicly we ask Jesus and Jesus because he is our intersessor and in direct communication with God...asks the Father.

yea that is tru cuz that wot christians believe where as muzlims dn't belive that as the say jesus is the messenger of god where as christians say that jesus is the son of god

(i hope i said that right)

take care
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Andaraawus
03-12-2006, 04:21 PM
i have a question for you poster number one

Jesus said that whoever lives by the sword shall die by the sword ...did Muhammad die by the sword?
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Nicola
03-12-2006, 04:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamgyal
yea that is tru cuz that wot christians believe where as muzlims dn't belive that as the say jesus is the messenger of god where as christians say that jesus is the son of god

(i hope i said that right)

take care
yes you did :happy:
though you don't have to be a Christian to ask...anyone can, never mind what religion you are or even if you don't have a religion as such...because we are all Gods Children.
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Ghazi
03-12-2006, 04:25 PM
Salaam

Gods Children.
care to explian?
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HeiGou
03-12-2006, 04:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Andaraawus
i have a question for you poster number one

Jesus said that whoever lives by the sword shall die by the sword ...did Muhammad die by the sword?
Well am I poster number one? Depends how you measure it.

Muhammed died from poison given to him by a Jewish survivor of Khaibar. I can see why a non-Muslim might think that was an example of someone doing just that. Or at least reaping what they had sown.
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nur86
03-12-2006, 04:39 PM
Muhammed died from poison given to him by a Jewish survivor of Khaibar
he did?
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HeiGou
03-12-2006, 04:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nur86
he did?
It is what I heard. Of course I may be wrong.

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 713:

Narrated Ibn Abbas:

'Umar bin Al-Khattab used to let Ibn Abbas sit beside him, so 'AbdurRahman bin 'Auf said to 'Umar, "We have sons similar to him." 'Umar replied, "(I respect him) because of his status that you know." 'Umar then asked Ibn 'Abbas about the meaning of this Holy Verse:-- "When comes the help of Allah and the conquest of Mecca . . ." (110.1)

Ibn 'Abbas replied, "That indicated the death of Allah's Apostle which Allah informed him of." 'Umar said, "I do not understand of it except what you understand."

Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 394:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

When Khaibar was conquered, a roasted poisoned sheep was presented to the Prophets as a gift (by the Jews). The Prophet ordered, "Let all the Jews who have been here, be assembled before me." The Jews were collected and the Prophet said (to them), "I am going to ask you a question. Will you tell the truth?'' They said, "Yes.' The Prophet asked, "Who is your father?" They replied, "So-and-so." He said, "You have told a ie; your father is so-and-so." They said, "You are right." He siad, "Will you now tell me the truth, if I ask you about something?" They replied, "Yes, O AbuAl-Qasim; and if we should tell a lie, you can realize our lie as you have done regarding our father." On that he asked, "Who are the people of the (Hell) Fire?" They said, "We shall remain in the (Hell) Fire for a short period, and after that you will replace us." The Prophet said, "You may be cursed and humiliated in it! By Allah, we shall never replace you in it.'' Then he asked, "Will you now tell me the truth if I ask you a question?" They said, "Yes, O Ab Li-AI-Qasim." He asked, "Have you poisoned this sheep?" They said, "Yes." He asked, "What made you do so?" They said, "We wanted to know if you were a liar in which case we would get rid of you, and if you are a prophet then the poison would not harm you."

Volume 3, Book 47, Number 786:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

A Jewess brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was asked, "Shall we kill her?" He said, "No." I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of Allah's Apostle .

Sahih Muslim Chapter 17: POISON

Book 026, Number 5430:

Anas reported that a Jewess came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) with poisoned mutton and he took of that what had been brought to him (Allah's Messenger). (When the effect of this poison were felt by him) he called for her and asked her about that, whereupon she said: I had determined to kill you. Thereupon he said: Allah will never give you the power to do it. He (the narrator) said that they (the Companion's of the Holy Prophet) said: Should we not kill her? Thereupon he said: No. He (Anas) said: I felt (the affects of this poison) on the uvula of Aitah's Messenger.

Book 026, Number 5431:

Anas b. Malik reported that a Jewess brought poisoned meat and then served it to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)
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Nicola
03-12-2006, 04:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

care to explian?

My mistake, sorry..it is only Chrisitians that are the adoptive Children of God.

this might explain

Spirit of Adoption

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:14-17 AV)
117. Everybody that is led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

118. All Christians receive the Spirit of Adoption which gives them the right to call the LORD GOD their Father. The Spirit of Adoption is one of seven Spirits that rest on all Christians, through the Spirit of Christ.

119. The Spirit of Adoption allows Christians to call out to their Father LORD GOD and be heard.
If not for the Spirit of Adoption, the LORD GOD would be unable to hear your cries. If not for the Spirit of Adoption, the LORD GOD would be unable to accept you as His own child.

120. The Spirit of Adoption also talks to the spirit inside a Christian, and reassures him of his status as a child of God. This quiet witness of the Spirit of Adoption inside you allows a faithful confidence of your equal standing as a son of God.

121. As a result of the Spirit of Adoption's witness, Christians are able to claim their right to the inheritance of those things promised to the sons of God.

122. Through the Spirit of Adoption, the Christian receives the right to inherit jointly with Christ.
Those things given to Christ through inheritance, are also given to the followers of Christ, as they all are "sons of God." You have the same inheritance rights as Jesus Christ because you are also a son of God.

123. The Spirit of Adoption rests in you and joins with your spirit to witness to the LORD GOD that you are His Child.
The LORD GOD allows His Spirit of Adoption to rest in you through the Spirit of Christ because it is His Will to do so. The LORD GOD chooses you to be His child and to have all rights and privileges associated with that honored position. Praise Be to our Father!



Ephesians 1:5

He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will. Ephesians 1:5

hope this helps :)
Reply

Cheb
03-12-2006, 07:11 PM
I came across this on ebay :)
Well honestly I do not buy it. Mainly because the seller does not seem to be trustworthy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/A-LECTURE-JESUS-...QQcmdZViewItem
Reply

*Hana*
03-13-2006, 12:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
I came across this on ebay :)
Well honestly I do not buy it. Mainly because the seller does not seem to be trustworthy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/A-LECTURE-JESUS-...QQcmdZViewItem
All that for only $25,000 usd!!! :D What a bargain!! ;D NOT :rollseyes

It never fails to amaze me how people will stoop to such low levels to steal money from the weak and vulnerable. :heated: E-bay shouldn't even allow people like that to use their services. It's disgusting.

Wasalam,
Hana
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Shadow
03-13-2006, 12:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
I came across this on ebay :)
Well honestly I do not buy it. Mainly because the seller does not seem to be trustworthy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/A-LECTURE-JESUS-...QQcmdZViewItem
format_quote Originally Posted by eBay
#3. THE SOLUTION FOR THE ACHIEVEMENT OF WORLD PEACE: This is so simple! According to Jesus, the way to achieve world peace is this: An AMERICAN president has to set a goal for WORLD PEACE BEFORE 2021. (President Kennedy did something similar when he set a goal for the USA to land a man on the moon in the 60's.)
lol!!
Reply

imranshaykh
03-17-2006, 08:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Dear shorouk,
Why don't you explain me why my arguments don't make any sense? Thanks.
Apologies for entering the discusso mid-way. I read through the threads of th discussion very very quickly and can conclude that my friend Turin, you are unable to distinguish between religion and politics.

You call countries like America rich and peaceful. I disagree. Do please view Michael Moore's documentary on the Columbine school killings and you will know what I am talking about.

Countries like Saudi Arabia, the Midddle East and Iran overall are Islamic in perception because more than 90% of the populace is practicing Muslim. As regards crimes against women lets take a test.

Find a person who has lived his life in America and in Saudi Arabia. Then ask him if he can let his wife or his daughter walk alone, unarmed on the streets of America at 2:00 am in the morning. Then ask him if he would be ok with doing that in Saudi Arabia. his answer should answer your question where Muslims respect women more or less than others.

Regards
Imran Shaykh
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-17-2006, 09:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
I am a Christian and I would like to participate. Since most of the arguments posted above are not real arguments at all and only pretend to be funny (number 21 for example) why don't we focus on the real arguments? Number 2 for instance is a good argument that most Christians agree with. Muhammad killed and killed many people. Jesus certainly didn't, not even to save his life. Who looks closer to our idea of a merciful God?
*confused*.... You know that we don't worship Prophet Muhammad (SAW), right?
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HeiGou
03-17-2006, 10:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by imranshaykh
You call countries like America rich and peaceful. I disagree. Do please view Michael Moore's documentary on the Columbine school killings and you will know what I am talking about.
And yet America remains a rich and peaceful country. Whatever Mr Moore says.

Countries like Saudi Arabia, the Midddle East and Iran overall are Islamic in perception because more than 90% of the populace is practicing Muslim. As regards crimes against women lets take a test.

Find a person who has lived his life in America and in Saudi Arabia. Then ask him if he can let his wife or his daughter walk alone, unarmed on the streets of America at 2:00 am in the morning. Then ask him if he would be ok with doing that in Saudi Arabia. his answer should answer your question where Muslims respect women more or less than others.
Ummm, you are extrapolating to all of America from a small number of very bad neighborhoods. So to answer your question, in the vast majority of America, the vast majority of wives and daughters not only can but do walk the streets at 2 AM. In fact they often do so under the influence of alcohol which is proof of how safe America really is. Meanwhile the Saudi government insists, to the best of my knowledge and please correct me if I am wrong, that women need to be completely covered to protect against rape, and they may not travel without a Mahram anyway specifically to protect them. It looks to me as if Saudi Arabia has the problem - America does not need to adopt such extreme measures.
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sargon
03-17-2006, 10:33 AM
Being from America I have to say that it's true, most places are safe besides some neigborhoods. However there are random occurences of rape in dark alleys, it happened to people I know.

To say in Saudi Arabia it's safer for girls is silly, if they're mostly Muslim than girls can't go out without the protection of their husband, or someone else.

I really don't know what my opinion is anymore. There are dozens of news sources, unlimited conspiracies, a split of opinions in history, and current events arent too peachy either.

There was a minor sign about falsehood being the norm, I think it is almost at that point. I try to do some reasearch and different websites quote different statistics. I don't believe pretty much anything these days, so about Saudi Arabia I'd have to go there and see myself.

Back on topic
I still don't understand why I should be Christian if no one can explain how to deal with crimes. In Fiji they ate the first missionaries that went there, becaise Cannibalism was there way of life. In that place there were no man-made laws, so how can you judge them unless you have laws sent from Allah?
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Shahul
07-16-2006, 04:53 PM
[QUOTE=Turin Turambar;187914]

I just want to refer to your understanding of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

How much do you know about the Prophet Muhammad ? Just read what these people has to say about the Seal of the Prophets.

He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions. Caesar without the legions of Caesar; without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue. If ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports.
-Bosworth Smith
Mohammad and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p 92

His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high Moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves.Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.
-W Montgomery Watt
Mohammad At Mecca, Oxford, 1953. p 52

It is never ending what good things, most Educated and Broad-Minded non muslims have to say about the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

Just ponder, is it not incontrovertible proof of his prophethood that, despite being Unlettered and having led a Very Normal and Quiet Life for forty years, that all of Arabia stood in awe and wonder of his wonderful eloquence and oratory when he began to preach Islam? It was so matchless that legions of Arab poets, preachers and orators of the highest calibre failed to produce a composition that could compare with or equal it. And above all, how could he state scientific truths that would not be known by to the rest of humanity for centuries and that he could not learn about in any other way except through divine revelation?

Maybe people like you would say that it is not divine inspired but satan inspired. If common sense prevails, ask yourself what worldly possessions and luxuries did the Prophet enjoy during his time, if it was satan inspired. Zero is the answer !
In fact, The Prophet (PBUH) led an even harder life after gaining power and authority. To sum it up, hear his words when he was dying : 'We, the community of the Prophets, do not inherit. All that we leave is for Charity'. That is the Man, the Prophet(PBUH).
Go and do your homework well before passing any comments about him.
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Zionazi_Dissent
07-16-2006, 06:36 PM
Do Christians have nothing better to do than bash Islam? Who are they to judge? Probably a superiority complex is in their blood. Shouldnt they be busy being good Christians rather than sticking their nose in other people's business?
I am sick of these futile hypocrits.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-16-2006, 07:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zionazi_Dissent
I am sick of these futile hypocrits.
You should differentiate between those who are polite and respectful and those who are not; maybe you were referring just to those who insult Islam, but I think you should make that clear so as not to offend our Christian members.

:w:
Reply

Zionazi_Dissent
07-16-2006, 07:06 PM
[quotehttp://cgi.ebay.com/A-LECTURE-JESUS-...cmd ZViewItem[/quote]

I find it interesting that the owner of ebay is Muslim and he's a big philanthropist now.
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Phil12123
07-17-2006, 05:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zionazi_Dissent
Do Christians have nothing better to do than bash Islam? Who are they to judge? Probably a superiority complex is in their blood. Shouldnt they be busy being good Christians rather than sticking their nose in other people's business?
Everyone, including you, have the obligation to "judge" the truth claims of Islam and Christianity. "Prove (or test) all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thess. 5:21). Obviously, those of us who are Christians have come to certain conclusions about the falsity of Islam, just as you have come to certain conclusions about the falsity of Christianity. We differ but we don't have to "bash" each other, if by that you mean rudely disrepect each other. If by "bash" Islam you mean to criticize, put down, or otherwise discredit it, there may be nothing wrong with that, if it is done respectfully. Muslims on this board criticize, put down, and discredit Christianity all the time. Does that mean THEY have a superiority complex? Shouldn't they be busy being good Muslims rather than...whatever? The whole board is all about having respectful dialogue, which I think increases our understanding of each other.

Peace
Reply

wilberhum
07-18-2006, 10:29 PM
Find a person who has lived his life in America and in Saudi Arabia. Then ask him if he can let his wife or his daughter walk alone, unarmed on the streets of America at 2:00 am in the morning. Then ask him if he would be ok with doing that in Saudi Arabia. his answer should answer your question where Muslims respect women more or less than others.
I just love it when people argue out of ignorance. A woman walking alone at 2:00 in the morning in Saudi Arabia is illegal. So she is not at all safe. The police will pick her up.
The only married man that I know that lived in Saudi Arabia, would not let his wife go unaccompanied any place at any time, and his trust in her had nothing to do with his concerns. She also felt so unsafe that she only went out in a group.
Reply

Looking4Peace
07-18-2006, 10:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
To Ansar Al-'Adl and Idris, thanks for your answers. It is very important that we debate because we are dealing with the most important thing in our lives so if one of us is wrong, the sooner he finds the truth the better.

To Ansar Al-'Adl:
1) Yes I do consider Moses a prophet but NOT an example to be imitated today. My only example to be imitated is Jesus. The problem is that Muslims DO consider Muhammad an example to be imitated today. And since his methods were often very violent, Muslims who imitate him get in terrible conflict with the world around them.

2) It might be true that in the past Muslim women occupied those exalted roles, but we cannot turn on the TV and check so we will always have doubts. A Muslim-inspired book will say one thing but the book I have (written by Ibn Warraq, whom I sincerely recommend) says something very different. History is hard to check and prone to biased interpretations. Current realities are much easier to check. Where do we find the women who run companies? Where do we find the women killed in "honor killings"? Again, the answers are on your TV every day.

3) The argument for "honor killings" is similar. If they have nothing to do with Islam, why do we find them only in Islamic countries? Isn't it much of a coincidence? If they were random, shouldn't we find a few of them in every region of the world? Why are they all concentrated in Islamic countries?

I will answer to Idris in my next post. Thanks



you should actually dedicate urself to better educating urself, honor killings occur all over the world and were originally tribal practices in many of the earliest civilizations before Islam, in fact it is not only still practised in Islamic countries but all over certain areas of Latin America as well and i am part Honduran so dont tell me anything or just ask my friend from Guatemala, it was also pracitsed in many hindu cultures and who knows how many more.
Reply

Woodrow
07-19-2006, 06:29 AM
A better title for the Auction would be "How to make $25,000 on Ebay, with just one auction"
Reply

adeeb
07-21-2006, 02:18 PM
in my opinion, most of christian don't do what their religion tell them to do. it's different in Islam.........
ALlah (swt) said that He will give the kufaar what they want in this world such as women, sex, appearance, money, etc but nothing will they get in akhiraah, coz the akhiraa just for who that worship the God (Allah) and believe in Muhammad. so that must be a muslim. so maybe you are rich but the money just make you further and futher from the right path... don't look something only with your eyes, try to see with your heart why muslim feel happy even though they are poor coz they know they will get something in akhiraa when the non muslim will be punished in hell.
Reply

------
07-21-2006, 02:20 PM
[S]Islam All the way anyday mate[/S]

[MOUSE]I agree[/MOUSE]

[BANANA]So does the banana[/BANANA]

[MAD]So do i[/MAD]
Reply

Abdul-Raouf
07-21-2006, 02:31 PM
In which country there are many many rapes, many thefts, many illegal activties - prostitution, bars, sex shops, gamblings, sex films, nude - beaches, etc.,. .... all nonsense ........
sure that modern country would be christian country
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Phil12123
07-23-2006, 08:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by adeeb
in my opinion, most of christian don't do what their religion tell them to do. it's different in Islam.........
ALlah (swt) said that He will give the kufaar what they want in this world such as women, sex, appearance, money, etc but nothing will they get in akhiraah, coz the akhiraa just for who that worship the God (Allah) and believe in Muhammad. so that must be a muslim. so maybe you are rich but the money just make you further and futher from the right path... don't look something only with your eyes, try to see with your heart why muslim feel happy even though they are poor coz they know they will get something in akhiraa when the non muslim will be punished in hell.
You've used some words that I don't recognize, so perhaps you can tell me what they mean---kufaar, akhiraah, akhiraa.

Peace
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Muhammad
07-23-2006, 08:48 AM
Hello Phil,

Akhiraah or akhiraa means the hereafter - the life after death.

Kufaar is the plural of kafir, which is basically a non-Muslim.

Hope that helps :).
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adeeb
07-23-2006, 01:27 PM
salam
phil, thank you for reading my message

Muhammad 9the senior member) said was right...
akhiraa or akhiraah means the hereafter or the live after death or live after the end of this world..
and kufaar or kafir is non muslim

wassalam
Reply

- Qatada -
07-23-2006, 01:54 PM
:wasalamex


A kafir is someone who rejects faith, and kuffar is the plural of that. Allaah Almighty knows best.


:salamext:
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Isa Abdullah
07-25-2006, 12:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
I am a Christian and I would like to participate. Since most of the arguments posted above are not real arguments at all and only pretend to be funny (number 21 for example) why don't we focus on the real arguments? Number 2 for instance is a good argument that most Christians agree with. Muhammad killed and killed many people. Jesus certainly didn't, not even to save his life. Who looks closer to our idea of a merciful God?
bismillah
Rule number one: You cannot compare apples and oranges.



Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-25-2006, 01:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Dear friends,

I will go back to the "long message" otherwise I will be accused again of trying to avoid some issues. In any case that message is very rich so I will have fun for a long time...;)

Now I will touch upon the following assertion of Ansar Al-'Adl:

"The Shah of Persia sent his men to arrest and execute the Prophet Muhammad and the Roman Governate in Ghassan killed one of the Prophet's diplomats. Both are open acts of war. The persian and roman empires sought to crush the new Islamic empire, but their tyrannical rule failed."

So, the Roman Governor killed one of the prophet's diplomats and that was an open act of war. And that allowed the Muslim armies to invade and occupy Roman territory until today (Egypt and Syria were Roman provinces).
Because one diplomat had been killed the Muslim armies could invade and occupy FOR EVER territory belonging to another country and according to Ansar Al-'Adl that means that the Muslims were not aggressors in that war. So I cannot say that it was a conquest by force....because one diplomat had been killed before the invasion.

Would you apply that criterion today? I kind of like it after all. I would like it applied in the case of Iran. Iran held 52 Americans hostages for more than a year, participated in the murder of an American officer in Lebanon and the bombings of the Khobar Towers (American military installations in Saudi Arabia). Clearly acts of war.

So, according to Ansar Al-'Adl America could invade Iran, keep it occupied for ever, kill all Iranian males who opposed the invasion, rape captive (infidel) women, impose a special humilliation tax on Muslims (of which Christians would be exempt) and incorporate the whole country to America.

And that wouldn't qualify as aggression according to Ansar Al-'Adl because there was previously an act of war justifying the invasion.

No, my friends, I wouldn't approve of that. And if you were fair you would recognize that it is exactly what happened back then. If you have any doubt about the sad conditions imposed on those who were invaded, please look for Bat Yeor on the Internet. He will tell you what it means to be a dhimmi. Don't wish that on others because you might get it for yourselves.
what about Israel going berserk and bombarding lebanon becuz "2 soldiers" were abducted? talk bout insane >.< i know thats old but stilll =|
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Phil12123
07-25-2006, 07:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by adeeb
in my opinion, most of christian don't do what their religion tell them to do.
Could you be more specific? You're saying most Christians don't do what their religion tells them to do... like what?


it's different in Islam.........ALlah (swt) said that He will give the kufaar [= a rejecter of Islam] what they want in this world such as women, sex, appearance, money, etc but nothing will they get in akhiraah [=heaven], coz the akhiraa [heaven] [is] just for who that worship the God (Allah) and believe in Muhammad. so that must be a muslim. so maybe you are rich but the money just make you further and futher from the right path... don't look something only with your eyes, try to see with your heart why muslim feel happy even though they are poor coz they know they will get something in akhiraa [heaven] when the non muslim will be punished in hell.
Interesting, because the Christian would say the same thing only the religions would be reversed! It should then read:

it's different in Christianity.........the non-Christians may have what they want in this world such as women, sex, appearance, money, etc but nothing will they get in heaven, because heaven is just for those who worship God and believe in Jesus' death for their sins, so that must be a Christian. So maybe you are rich but the money just makes you further and futher from the right path... don't see things only with your eyes, try to see with your heart why the Christian feels happy even though they are poor because they know they will get something in heaven...

Peace
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Phil12123
07-25-2006, 07:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
what about Israel going berserk and bombarding lebanon becuz "2 soldiers" were abducted? talk bout insane.
I hesitate to comment on the above sentence because there is so much we don't know, so many facts not reported, etc., but let me say this: I've been told by one reporter that Israel has had enough of Hezbollah's firing of rockets into Israeli cities from positions in southern Lebanon that were once under Israel's control but given up by Israel in hopes of peace, that Israel finally decided to put a stop to it by doing what it is now doing. I'm not saying I agree with all that Israel is now doing. There is much suffering by innocent civilians in the present situation, but none of that would exist if Hezbollah wanted to live in peace and not fire rockets into Israeli cities.

Peace
Reply

Shadow_of_White
07-25-2006, 08:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by adeeb
in my opinion, most of christian don't do what their religion tell them to do. it's different in Islam.........
ALlah (swt) said that He will give the kufaar what they want in this world such as women, sex, appearance, money, etc but nothing will they get in akhiraah, coz the akhiraa just for who that worship the God (Allah) and believe in Muhammad. so that must be a muslim. so maybe you are rich but the money just make you further and futher from the right path... don't look something only with your eyes, try to see with your heart why muslim feel happy even though they are poor coz they know they will get something in akhiraa when the non muslim will be punished in hell.
brother,

there is only ONE religion: Islam. all prophets came with the same exact message. So dont say that Christinas dont follow what God has commanded them, bcoz then they would be Muslims.ofcourse,if they do follw what truly Allah SWT has commanded..
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Phil12123
07-25-2006, 09:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Shadow_of_White
there is only ONE religion: Islam. all prophets came with the same exact message. So dont say that Christinas dont follow what God has commanded them, bcoz then they would be Muslims.ofcourse,if they do follw what truly Allah SWT has commanded..
Wrong. There are many religions, but only ONE TRUE religion, namely, Christianity.

Peace
Reply

- Qatada -
07-25-2006, 01:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
Wrong. There are many religions, but only ONE TRUE religion, namely, Christianity.

Peace

Is there any proof of that in the bible?


Peace.
Reply

adeeb
07-25-2006, 02:06 PM
bismillahirrahmanirrahiim.........

first of all, i would say, the truth coming from Allah (SWT) and the wrong thing is just come from me. Allah (SWT) knows the best.

in the bible, the God tell the christians to cut the penis skin (khitan) , sorry i dont know what it is in English. but, mostly Christian dont do that.

and as i know the jesus never declared that he is the god and the people have to worship him. i dont want to debate here, coz we will try our best to help our religion. :)

a moslem, nowadays must have strong heart coz there won't be easier to live day by day. as stated in Quran, the non muslim will do their best to fight Islam, with their money, their appearance, their power, their ability like what happening now in middle east.

and i wanna say, for you your religion and for me mine....
this is long debate....... and have you ever read Ahmad Deedat's book? the comparison between quran and bible and all what stated in bible is not to the Jesus but to the Mohammad (saw).. the bible had predicted about the last prophet Mohammad (saw).
:thankyou:
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bint_muhammed
07-25-2006, 02:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Another good one is number 95:

Islam teaches me to defend myself if someone attacks me.
Jesus told me to turn the other cheek.

Could that be the explanation for why Sunnis and Shias are killing each other in places like Iraq and Pakistan? Perhaps they are following Islam and they feel attacked by the other group, so they defend themselves? And obviously after the "defense" the other group also feels attacked so it defends itself in turn? And they keep the cycle forever?

And could that be the reason why in a place like America several different Christian denominations keep perfect peace among themselves, because they turn the other cheek? If they perceive an insult they forgive instead of seeking revenge?

And that could explain why America is peaceful and rich and why Iraq and Pakistan are violent and poor?

what bout teh civil war in ireland? between protestants and catholics, who weas turning the other cheek!:?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-25-2006, 04:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
Could you be more specific? You're saying most Christians don't do what their religion tells them to do... like what?
well for one thing your not supposed to eat pork and woman r supposed to be covered.
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iLL_LeaT
07-25-2006, 07:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Certain Islamic States treat women like dirt and kill anybody who is not a Muslim.

Do you really think that?


Why don’t you ask a Muslim female if she is treated like dirt?

You can’t tell someone, “I think you are treated like dirt, so you are obviously treated like dirt.”

It really does not matter how you think someone is treated. It only matters how the individual thinks he or she is treated.

Small Points:
1.Most Muslim females feel western women are treated like sex objects, and are not treated equal. (So how do you think it would make them feel if they were forced to dress [what they consider] almost naked?)

2.Muslim females do not have to wear the full berka, but most do. (Why do you think that is? It is because they choose to)

3.Muslims hold females in very high regards, not low.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-25-2006, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by iLL_LeaT
Do you really think that?


Why don’t you ask a Muslim female if she is treated like dirt?

You can’t tell someone, “I think you are treated like dirt, so you are obviously treated like dirt.”

It really does not matter how you think someone is treated. It only matters how the individual thinks he or she is treated.

Small Points:
1.Most Muslim females feel western women are treated like sex objects, and are not treated equal. (So how do you think it would make them feel if they were forced to dress [what they consider] almost naked?)

2.Muslim females do not have to wear the full berka, but most do. (Why do you think that is? It is because they choose to)

3.Muslims hold females in very high regards, not low.
Thumbs up to you!!:thumbs_up
Thats exactly how it is..i wear a hijab..am i forced?? i didnt always wear it.. so whats ur point?? u obviously dont know nething... plz educate urself a lil more.
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Taqiyah
07-25-2006, 07:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by iLL_LeaT
Do you really think that?


Why don’t you ask a Muslim female if she is treated like dirt?

You can’t tell someone, “I think you are treated like dirt, so you are obviously treated like dirt.”

It really does not matter how you think someone is treated. It only matters how the individual thinks he or she is treated.

Small Points:
1.Most Muslim females feel western women are treated like sex objects, and are not treated equal. (So how do you think it would make them feel if they were forced to dress [what they consider] almost naked?)

2.Muslim females do not have to wear the full berka, but most do. (Why do you think that is? It is because they choose to)

3.Muslims hold females in very high regards, not low.

Yeah exactly! I could neva agree more:D
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Isa Abdullah
07-25-2006, 08:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
well for one thing your not supposed to eat pork and woman r supposed to be covered.
This topic is very sensitive. I am sure there is a thread open on it.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-25-2006, 08:06 PM
well he asked so i answered lol >.<
there prolly is.. and if not then we can always open it.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-25-2006, 09:03 PM
Explain one thing to me Turin, if u can, why is Islam the leading faith?? And if u say because its being forced on people i aughta slap u to the next planet.
Since Sept 11... reverts/converts to Islam have increased. why? becuz ppl r gettin to know the beautiful Islam. This is mostly in the US. So we ask u once again..plz educate urslef..its pointless to make stupid points which so many ppl here have refuted. You can argue as much as you want or try to convince us, but it wont change our beliefs..becuz we know wat awaits us..and Allah knows best...k thnx

Peace
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Woodrow
07-25-2006, 09:18 PM
Anyone who thinks a Muslim woman is forced to cover should meet my daughter. Her husband has been trying for years to get her to stop wearing the Hijab in public. She does not wear it at home in the presence of family. Her reponse has always been she will die before she will let anybody force her to not wear it.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-25-2006, 09:48 PM
My mom has said the same thing to me. What if the family i go to doesnt want me to wear it. My answer was the same. I would die before I took it off.
I wouldnt disobey Allah for someone else, be it even my husband..
That person would be my enemy for even thinking of havin me take it off..
Reply

bint_muhammed
07-25-2006, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
And yet America remains a rich and peaceful country. Whatever Mr Moore says.



Ummm, you are extrapolating to all of America from a small number of very bad neighborhoods. So to answer your question, in the vast majority of America, the vast majority of wives and daughters not only can but do walk the streets at 2 AM. In fact they often do so under the influence of alcohol which is proof of how safe America really is. Meanwhile the Saudi government insists, to the best of my knowledge and please correct me if I am wrong, that women need to be completely covered to protect against rape, and they may not travel without a Mahram anyway specifically to protect them. It looks to me as if Saudi Arabia has the problem - America does not need to adopt such extreme measures.
i think they should! take off ya glasse mate!:rollseyes the reason saudi has it because its best to be safe than sorry!
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bint_muhammed
07-25-2006, 11:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Anyone who thinks a Muslim woman is forced to cover should meet my daughter. Her husband has been trying for years to get her to stop wearing the Hijab in public. She does not wear it at home in the presence of family. Her reponse has always been she will die before she will let anybody force her to not wear it.

good on her! hope Allah keeeps up her strength! Ameen:statisfie
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-26-2006, 12:13 AM
wow he totally contradicted himself...maybe he needs to reread what he jus said!!! Funny to hear that from a guy who aught to know that the United States has one of the highest percentage of crime and rape!! Every minute, at least 5 woman are raped in America. So who has the problem?
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Phil12123
07-26-2006, 04:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Is there any proof of that ["There are many religions, but only ONE TRUE religion, namely, Christianity."] in the bible?
Yes, I believe the Bible is full of such proof. And of course you would disagree and contend that the Quran is full of proof that Islam is the one true religion.

There are obviously many "religions," contrary to your original post in which you said there in only ONE religion. After all, this portion of the forum is "Comparative religion" in which we are comparing religions, plural.

There are many books written by Christians that prove the validity of Christianity, such as Josh McDowell's Evidence That Demands A Verdict. I don't want to complicate a simple post with extensive quotes from such books.

But let me say this. ALL religions may be divided into two categories, with Christianity being the only one in one category and ALL others, including Islam, being in the other category. The two categories are this:

1. Religions that consist of man working his way to some goal, whether to appease or please a god, or to go to a heaven or to escape or satisfy karma. But the bottom line is man doing works or good deeds to make himself acceptable to some higher power or to reach some goal, like nirvana, outside himself.

2. Christianity, which consists of GOD performing the work of redemption and reaching down to man to give him as a free gift the salvation that he needs and without which he is totally without hope. The recipient of that salvation enters into a personal relationship with God, by grace through faith, which explains why some have actually called this not a religion but a relationship.

So, it's man working or God doing the work that man could never do. See the distinction?

Peace
Reply

i_m_tipu
07-26-2006, 06:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Anyone who thinks a Muslim woman is forced to cover should meet my daughter. Her husband has been trying for years to get her to stop wearing the Hijab in public. She does not wear it at home in the presence of family. Her reponse has always been she will die before she will let anybody force her to not wear it.
MasAllaah may Allaah give ur daughter reward
Reply

i_m_tipu
07-26-2006, 06:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
My mom has said the same thing to me. What if the family i go to doesnt want me to wear it. My answer was the same. I would die before I took it off.
I wouldnt disobey Allah for someone else, be it even my husband..
That person would be my enemy for even thinking of havin me take it off..
MasAllaah
Reply

Curaezipirid
07-26-2006, 09:32 AM
I have not read all of the postings in this thread; but this is what I am believing:

After Jesus Ressurection, He told of Revelations to Saint John the Evangelist. (it has to be careful not to confuse with Saint John the Baptist because many so-called christians, but misinformed by Rosicrucians, were confused between the two Saints) Jesus told Saint John the Evangelist what He had forseen. Saint John asked Jesus if it was already too late to prevent, and that if it was possible could that be done. Then Jesus Prophesised also that Saint John would one day long away be the Greatest teacher on the planet. Then after six hundred years was Mohammed, and through Arch Angel Gabriel He received Qur'an. Qur'an was the instrument to prevent Revelations. Hadiths the instrument to be along side just it case it turned out Revelations became necessary. Now it is that because of the Fall of the Islamic Empire, as a single Governing force all over Earth, Revelations is needed among Surah.

Liken to a large reconstruction of Jesus life, crucifixion, and Ressurection, has Islam ever been.
Reply

Phil12123
07-26-2006, 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by Phil12123
Could you be more specific? You're saying most Christians don't do what their religion tells them to do... like what?
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
well for one thing your not supposed to eat pork and woman r supposed to be covered.
What? Christians are not forbidden to eat pork, Jews are. And Christians are not ordered to be covered, Muslims are (I guess). Do you have your religions mixed up, or what?

And you told someone else in one of your posts to get educated. No offense but it looks like you could use some of that.

Peace
Reply

Phil12123
07-26-2006, 01:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ridicurezipa
I have not read all of the postings in this thread; but this is what I am believing:

After Jesus Ressurection, He told of Revelations to Saint John the Evangelist. (it has to be careful not to confuse with Saint John the Baptist because many so-called christians, but misinformed by Rosicrucians, were confused between the two Saints) Jesus told Saint John the Evangelist what He had forseen. Saint John asked Jesus if it was already too late to prevent, and that if it was possible could that be done. Then Jesus Prophesised also that Saint John would one day long away be the Greatest teacher on the planet. Then after six hundred years was Mohammed, and through Arch Angel Gabriel He received Qur'an. Qur'an was the instrument to prevent Revelations. Hadiths the instrument to be along side just it case it turned out Revelations became necessary. Now it is that because of the Fall of the Islamic Empire, as a single Governing force all over Earth, Revelations is needed among Surah.

Liken to a large reconstruction of Jesus life, crucifixion, and Ressurection, has Islam ever been.
What? Where did you come up with all that [removed] No offense but if that is what you are believing, you are believing a bunch of lies. The only thing in that paragraph that is true is the distinction between John the Baptist and John the Evangelist (or more properly, the Apostle).

Peace
Reply

czgibson
07-26-2006, 01:35 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
2. Christianity, which consists of GOD performing the work of redemption and reaching down to man to give him as a free gift the salvation that he needs and without which he is totally without hope. The recipient of that salvation enters into a personal relationship with God, by grace through faith, which explains why some have actually called this not a religion but a relationship.
How do you know that god is doing any of this?

How do you know that words in this context like 'grace' and 'redemption' aren't just examples of empty jargon created by theologians? What do you actually mean by 'grace'?

Peace
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
07-26-2006, 01:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muzammil
In which country there are many many rapes, many thefts, many illegal activties - prostitution, bars, sex shops, gamblings, sex films, nude - beaches, etc.,. .... all nonsense ........
sure that modern country would be christian country
Judgemental no? This can happen in many countries and not necessarily in 'Christian countries'
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
07-26-2006, 01:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
Wrong. There are many religions, but only ONE TRUE religion, namely, Christianity.

Peace
Lol - Why do egotistics always claim that THEIR religion is the true one! :rollseyes
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-26-2006, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
What? Christians are not forbidden to eat pork, Jews are. And Christians are not ordered to be covered, Muslims are (I guess). Do you have your religions mixed up, or what?

And you told someone else in one of your posts to get educated. No offense but it looks like you could use some of that.

Peace
Im sorry but u are wrong. If u dont believe me go read it urself. we'll see whos wrong. You obviously have not read it.

"But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels." [1 Corinthians 11:5-10]

In the book of Leviticus, Chapter 11, v.7, it is recorded that God declares the pig to be unclean for believers. Then, in verse 8, God says: ' You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you'. This command is repeated in Deuteronomy 14;7-8. Then, in Isaiah 65:2-4, and 66:17, God issues a stern warning against those who eat pork.

Some people are aware of this prohibition from God, but they say that they can eat pork because St. Paul said that all food is clean in his letter to the Romans 14:20. St. Paul said this because he believed (as he wrote in his letter to the Ephesians 2:14-15) that Jesus had abolished the Law with all its commandments and regulations. He seems, however, to have misunderstood what he heard from Jesus. In the Gospel According to Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus is reported to have said quite the contrary, as follows: ' Do not think that I have come to abolish the law...' Jesus then went on in that passage (in verse 19) to denounce anyone who would break the smallest commandment and teach others likewise. He also praised his true followers who will practice and teach even the smallest commandments. One of the commandments, as we have seen, is to stay away from pork.


Peace
Reply

ZOREENA
07-26-2006, 06:09 PM
[QUOTE=HeiGou;208093]Well Christianity has become more about love and less about fear. It used to be about fear too. QUOTE]


USED TO BE??UNTIL WHO CHANGED IT? IS IT NOT MEANT TO STAY IN THE SAME CONTEXT..WHAT WOULD CHANGE IT FROM ONE YEAR TO THE NEXT?
Reply

MaJistiC
07-26-2006, 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by Phil12123
What? Christians are not forbidden to eat pork, Jews are. And Christians are not ordered to be covered, Muslims are (I guess). Do you have your religions mixed up, or what?

And you told someone else in one of your posts to get educated. No offense but it looks like you could use some of that.

Peace

Im sorry but u are wrong. If u dont believe me go read it urself. we'll see whos wrong. You obviously have not read it.

"But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels." [1 Corinthians 11:5-10]

In the book of Leviticus, Chapter 11, v.7, it is recorded that God declares the pig to be unclean for believers. Then, in verse 8, God says: ' You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you'. This command is repeated in Deuteronomy 14;7-8. Then, in Isaiah 65:2-4, and 66:17, God issues a stern warning against those who eat pork.

Some people are aware of this prohibition from God, but they say that they can eat pork because St. Paul said that all food is clean in his letter to the Romans 14:20. St. Paul said this because he believed (as he wrote in his letter to the Ephesians 2:14-15) that Jesus had abolished the Law with all its commandments and regulations. He seems, however, to have misunderstood what he heard from Jesus. In the Gospel According to Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus is reported to have said quite the contrary, as follows: ' Do not think that I have come to abolish the law...' Jesus then went on in that passage (in verse 19) to denounce anyone who would break the smallest commandment and teach others likewise. He also praised his true followers who will practice and teach even the smallest commandments. One of the commandments, as we have seen, is to stay away from pork.


Peace





Phil12123 think pretty much u got THE perfect answer on that question and diskussion...lol...

Tayyaba wat a beuatiful answer.. I couldnt have answered better my self.

Peace Majistic
Reply

ZOREENA
07-26-2006, 06:14 PM
Mashallah Tayyaba!!! Iv Needed To Know That Soo Many Times ... ANd Could Never Get The Answer!!! Happy Dayz!!THANK U!
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czgibson
07-26-2006, 06:18 PM
Greetings,

It's an excellent answer - well done Tayyaba.

format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
And you told someone else in one of your posts to get educated. No offense but it looks like you could use some of that.
How embarrassing...

Peace
Reply

ZOREENA
07-26-2006, 06:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

It's an excellent answer - well done Tayyaba.



How embarrassing...

Peace
Realli embarrassing....ooo deer!!
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-26-2006, 06:30 PM
LOL im glad i could help.. :)

Salaam
Reply

avk
07-26-2006, 09:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
Not sure your analogy applies. "Freedom of expression" should permit people to say whatever they want, with certain well recognized exceptions (you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, etc.). Using drugs is not saying anything; it is conduct that can be prohibited for the good of the offender and the society he is a member of.

Every country is sovereign. It is true, therefore, that any country can make laws prohibiting the preaching of the Christian Gospel, as Saudi Arabia has done, for example. Christians within such country and subject to its jurisdiction must obey its laws or be prepared to face the consequences. A similar situation existed when Peter was preaching and the Jews ordered him to stop. His response? It is recorded in Acts 5:29 - - But Peter and the apostles replied, "We must obey God rather than men." The consequence? The high priest and council did not like that and "took counsel to slay them" (verse 33). But a very wise Pharisee named Gamaliel advised against that, saying,

38. "And so my advice is, leave these men alone. If what they teach and do is merely on their own, it will soon be overthrown.
39. But if it is of God, you will not be able to stop them, lest you find yourselves fighting even against God.''
40. The Council accepted his advice, called in the apostles, had them beaten, and then told them never again to speak in the name of Jesus, and finally let them go.
41. They left the Council chamber rejoicing that God had counted them worthy to suffer dishonor for his name.
42. And every day, in the Temple and in their home Bible classes, they continued to teach and preach that Jesus is the Messiah.

Brother of the book, Im saying is that the state will always look after its people. the example of drugs was to show you my idea and not the literal example. Plus if your assuming here that christianity is the truth and thus posting this verse from the bible wont do much in your argument because its just a narrow subjective reference. I can post the same argument from the quran and say we have to preach everywhere, it does not prove anything



So, what you're saying, if I understand your post, is that Islam needs the laws and acts of an islamic state "for a muslim community to stand tall"? Islam needs laws to hold it up, or the people would not follow it? So what you have is forced believers, making people believe by force of the laws, etc.? You need compulsion among Muslims or Islam would fall?

Well if your saying the goverment will let everything lose then things will get out of control. Its like saying , why is the police putting radars on the roads they should trust the people and let them drive as they like. But brother its always the state mission to prevent collateral damage. thus the same idea applies here. The protection of the socio-economic factor of the country.

Because the God of the Old Testament is not saying it.

Read verse : Deuteronomy 13:6-18
from the old testament this proves that its written there brother

Please explain. The "no compulsion" verse applies to non-Muslims? Meaning what? Non-Muslims are under no compulsion to follow Islam? But they can't follow their own religion, without being killed?

Meaning people of the book dont have to follow yes , but the second part is the one I find you strange addressing , since when are people of the book compulsed to follow islam ??? we have a term called "zhimmi" coming from the arabic root word "zhima" which means also responsiblity. Non muslims living under as islamic state are referd to as "zhimmi" as they are the resposiblities of the muslims. So if such term exists in the quran and the suna then how are you saying that non muslims must convert???
Peace
wa aleikom
Reply

Phil12123
07-27-2006, 04:26 AM
Originally Posted by Phil12123
Wrong. There are many religions, but only ONE TRUE religion, namely, Christianity.
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Lol - Why do egotistics always claim that THEIR religion is the true one! :rollseyes
Generally, that's not just egotists, it's everyone. At any given moment, most everyone thinks they are believing the TRUTH (or they wouldn't believe it). When I made the above statement, though I believed it to be true, the main reason I said it, was so the other person's statement would not go unchallenged ("there is ONE religion and it is Islam" or whatever he said). I said it with tongue in cheek, though I do believe it. :)

Peace
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
07-27-2006, 10:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
Generally, that's not just egotists, it's everyone. At any given moment, most everyone thinks they are believing the TRUTH (or they wouldn't believe it). When I made the above statement, though I believed it to be true, the main reason I said it, was so the other person's statement would not go unchallenged ("there is ONE religion and it is Islam" or whatever he said). I said it with tongue in cheek, though I do believe it. :)

Peace
Yes, i believe the same about Sikhism but we're much more tolerant than most. God moves in mysterious ways and his plan is not known to mankind. People can go on ranting or clashing in wars/battles about their religion being righteous & about how they know about God and his path, but the truth is, he's beyond knowing. :)
Reply

Phil12123
07-27-2006, 01:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Im sorry but u are wrong. If u dont believe me go read it urself. we'll see whos wrong. You obviously have not read it.

"But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels." [1 Corinthians 11:5-10]

In the book of Leviticus, Chapter 11, v.7, it is recorded that God declares the pig to be unclean for believers. Then, in verse 8, God says: ' You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you'. This command is repeated in Deuteronomy 14;7-8. Then, in Isaiah 65:2-4, and 66:17, God issues a stern warning against those who eat pork.

Some people are aware of this prohibition from God, but they say that they can eat pork because St. Paul said that all food is clean in his letter to the Romans 14:20. St. Paul said this because he believed (as he wrote in his letter to the Ephesians 2:14-15) that Jesus had abolished the Law with all its commandments and regulations. He seems, however, to have misunderstood what he heard from Jesus. In the Gospel According to Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus is reported to have said quite the contrary, as follows: ' Do not think that I have come to abolish the law...' Jesus then went on in that passage (in verse 19) to denounce anyone who would break the smallest commandment and teach others likewise. He also praised his true followers who will practice and teach even the smallest commandments. One of the commandments, as we have seen, is to stay away from pork.

Tayyaba, thank you for your post. You did a good job of trying to support your position regarding pork, but you are still wrong to apply those O.T. verses to Christians. They were written to Jews and apply only to Jews. You cannot interpret what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-20 in such a way as to make Paul misunderstanding it, and therefore writing something wrong to believers in his epistles. That would probably be like one of the "contradictions" that Muslims use to discredit the Bible. What Paul wrote is just as inspired of God as what Matthew wrote when he quoted Jesus. So you must interpret the two in such as way as to uphold the validity of both.

Let's look at both. First, Matthew 5:17-20 says:

17. "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18. "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19. "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20. "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Now, let's look at Romans 14:

1. Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
2. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
3. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
4. Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5. One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
6. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
7. For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.
8. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9. For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10. But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11. For it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.''
12. So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
13. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.
14. I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
16. Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil;
17. for the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18. For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19. Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.
20. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.
21. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
22. Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

How do I reconcile the two? By concluding this: Jesus came to fulfill the law. By His perfect life and His sacrificial death for our sins and resurrection from the grave, He fulfilled it and so we are no longer under the Mosaic law but now Christians are under the Law of Christ, which is to love one another as He has loved us. He said in John 13:34, "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another." One chapter back from Romans 14 above, we read:
Romans 13:
8. Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery,'' "You shall not murder,'' "You shall not steal,'' "You shall not bear false witness,'' "You shall not covet,'' and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.''
10. Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Paul applies that in Romans 14 when he says in verse 15, "Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.

The other thing we need to remember is that under the New Covenant, Christians are not under law but under grace. In Romans 6 we read,
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

For the Jews, however, who have kept themselves under the law, they are bound by the law to obey the WHOLE law, all 600+ commandments, even though they don't realize that they will never be made righteous in God's sight by trying to keep it all. Paul, in Galatians 3 says,
10. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.''
11. But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "The just shall live by faith.''
12. Yet the law is not of faith, but "The man who does them shall live by them.''
13. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree''),
21. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

And in Romans 3, Paul said:
19. Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

I now come to the most important verses dealing with this subject of pork. Paul writes to young Timothy in 1Timothy 4:
1. Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2. speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
3. forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
4. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
5. for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6. If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

Verses 4 & 5 tells the Christian that there are no longer clean/unclean distinctions, and all are good and nothing to be refused IF it is received with thanksgiving, because it is sanctified (or set apart for special use) by the word of God and prayer. When I pray before a meal, I am thanking God for the food and also asking God to sanctify the food, or make it good for the use of my body, to nourish and strengthen it.

Notice also verse 6 in which Paul tells Timothy that Timothy will be a good minister of Jesus Christ if he so instructs believers, contrary to what is said in Matt. 5:19. So, the commandments of the Law or Prophets referred to in Matt. 5:19 are obviously not applicable to the New Covenant believers who are "not under law but under grace."

Now, with respect to the second item you mentioned, a woman's covering, you are correct and I was wrong. When you said, "woman r supposed to be covered," I envisioned the Muslim berka (is that what it's called?) which covers the entire body except the eyes (I guess, correct me if I'm wrong again). Christian women are not commanded to wear that sort of thing, nor even veils, but only dress in "modest apparel" (1 Tim. 2:8), which unfortunately they don't always. The passage you cite, 1 Cor. 11:5-10, deals only with a covering on the head, and perhaps only in the assembly of believers, not generally elsewhere in public. Notice it says, "..every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head" (verse 5). And verses 17 and 18 talk about them coming together in the church. A woman can, of course, pray anywhere, but prophesying seems like it would be done in an assembly, although elsewhere women are told to be in silence there. In addition, the head covering or hat for women in the assembly might be merely a "custom" (see verse 16) and perhaps not universally applicable for all times and places. In any event, there are a few groups of believers who still practice that, like the Plymouth Brethren churches.

I apologize for anything I said that was not loving, such as the comment about getting educated, etc. That was wrong. In the future, please give the verse citation (1 Cor. 11, Matt. 5, etc.) when you're referring to something Christians should be doing, etc. It would have saved a lot of this.

Peace
Reply

czgibson
07-27-2006, 02:05 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
Tayyaba, thank you for your post. You did a good job of trying to support your position regarding pork, but you are still wrong to apply those O.T. verses to Christians. They were written to Jews and apply only to Jews.
This raises an interesting question: why do Christians still have the Old Testament as part of the Bible when it contains rulings that they do not consider applicable to them?

You cannot interpret what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-20 in such a way as to make Paul misunderstanding it, and therefore writing something wrong to believers in his epistles. That would probably be like one of the "contradictions" that Muslims use to discredit the Bible. What Paul wrote is just as inspired of God as what Matthew wrote when he quoted Jesus. So you must interpret the two in such as way as to uphold the validity of both.
In other words, even if two passages contradict each other, don't just read them and interpret what they say objectively - instead, assume they're both true and find a way of stretching your interpretation in order to accommodate both.

If Christians are happy with that reasoning, then fine - but it wouldn't stand up in a court of law.

Peace
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Les_Nubian
07-27-2006, 02:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Another good one is number 95:

Islam teaches me to defend myself if someone attacks me.
Jesus told me to turn the other cheek.

Could that be the explanation for why Sunnis and Shias are killing each other in places like Iraq and Pakistan? Perhaps they are following Islam and they feel attacked by the other group, so they defend themselves? And obviously after the "defense" the other group also feels attacked so it defends itself in turn? And they keep the cycle forever?

And could that be the reason why in a place like America several different Christian denominations keep perfect peace among themselves, because they turn the other cheek? If they perceive an insult they forgive instead of seeking revenge?

And that could explain why America is peaceful and rich and why Iraq and Pakistan are violent and poor?
It's funny how Christians try to act so self-righteous, and act as if Christianity doesn't have a history of warfare (like any religion), and slaughtering and killing people, and fighting. I don't know if you've ever heard the quote that goes something like this... "If Jesus knew what Christians were doing in his name, he'd never stop puking." I think that was Woody Allen. He's right, though.

And don't even get me started on the violent, incestual bible.
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Phil12123
07-27-2006, 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by Phil12123
2. Christianity, which consists of GOD performing the work of redemption and reaching down to man to give him as a free gift the salvation that he needs and without which he is totally without hope. The recipient of that salvation enters into a personal relationship with God, by grace through faith, which explains why some have actually called this not a religion but a relationship.
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
How do you know that god is doing any of this?
Because I have personally experienced it. I have received that free gift and now have a personal relationship with God through His Son, Jesus Christ.

How do you know that words in this context like 'grace' and 'redemption' aren't just examples of empty jargon created by theologians? What do you actually mean by 'grace'?
Because the Holy Spirit have opened my blind eyes to understand those words in a personal way, so that they are filled with real meaning and not simply empty jargon created by theologians.

"Grace" means undeserved or unmerited favor and love. I'm a sinner saved by grace, meaning I don't deserve the salvation or rescue God has provided me, a lost sinner, with. I deserve hell, like all sinners. But God, in sending His sinless Son to pay for my sins at Calvary, has rescued me from my sins and the just punishment I deserve for them. And that was all based on His love which I did not deserve or merit (His grace). Redemption describes God's buying me back from the bondage of sin, like when a slave is on the trading block and someone comes along and purchases him and then sets him free. I no more deserve to be set free from my sin than the slave deserves to be bought and released.

Ephesians 2:
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.

By "grace" (the unmerited love and favor of God) I have been saved (rescued) through faith (complete trust in the finished Work of Christ), and all that is not MY doing, it is the GIFT of God, not as a result of anything I have done (no good works or good deeds), lest I have something to boast of.

Galatians 6:14. But God forbid that I should glory [boast] except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

1 Cor. 1:31; Jer. 9:24: "He that glorieth [boasts], let him glory in the Lord."

Peace
Reply

ZOREENA
07-27-2006, 02:30 PM
So God has a son.....and Jesus has a daddy...who happenz to be God?? What about the trinity??? U believe in that?
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cool_jannah
07-27-2006, 03:08 PM
Hi Phil

Firstly, u need to get that demeaning and offensive avatar of ures down. The basic requirement of every human being is to be atleast a Muslim (or a submitter to the One True Lord). What you are doing is Shirk(associating partners with the Lord)
Reply

czgibson
07-27-2006, 03:22 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by cool_jannah
Firstly, u need to get that demeaning and offensive avatar of ures down. The basic requirement of every human being is to be atleast a Muslim (or a submitter to the One True Lord). What you are doing is Shirk(associating partners with the Lord)
Are you unable to tolerate the beliefs of others?

Peace
Reply

- Qatada -
07-27-2006, 03:30 PM
I think the sister just said it because it may go against the forum rules:


While interfaith discussions are allowed promoting another religion is not allowed on the discussion board. This discussion board was created to promote Islam, not another religion. There are many other discussion boards on the Web which you can promote your religion other than Islam. 5% warning


Plus, associating anyone else with Allaah is the worst of all sins in islam. And nowhere does it explicitly say in the bible that Jesus is God. Nowhere does it say trinity in the bible either, yet these are the most important aspects of the christian faith.


Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.
Reply

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