Corruption of Other Scriptures

[miseshayek]

I have recently joined this Forum, albeit I have been participating for some time in the Islam about.com forum. One of the reasons I am redirecting my energies in this regard is that there were a number of interesting topics that would pop up in the about.com forum, but there were seldom enough knowledgeable Muslims around who were interested in delving into these topics in detail. Hopefully things are different here.

For an initial issue re Comparative Religion, I am interested in more information on what I have been told is the Islam doctrine that the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity, albeit originally "given," in a sense similar to the giving of the Qur'an, have been corrupted. I have several questions about this doctrine:

(1) I have never been able to get any of the people who have mentioned this doctrine to identify its source. Is there a verse or verses in the Qur'an or a Hadith that deals with it? Are there other commentaries that examine it in more detail that are available in English or English translation?

(2) I understand that this doctrine mentions the Torah of the Jewish Scriptures, the Gospels of the Christian scriptures and something called the Tables of Abraham.

(a) What about the other Jewish and Christian scriptures?

(b) What is the "Tables of Abraham?" Are they available on line or otherwise?


(3) Is there any commentary on when this corruption occurred? I ask because we now have some sources [the Dead Sea Scrolls] that date back between 2,000-2,300 years and that appear to be pretty close to the present version of, at least, the Jewish Scriptures [except for some major differences in the Book of Daniel - which is not part of the Torah, and omission of the book of Esther - which also not part of the Torah]

(4) Is there any systematic account of what is corrupt and what isn't in these scriptures?

[shorouk]

1) I have never been able to get any of the people who have mentioned this doctrine to identify its source. Is there a verse or verses in the Qur'an or a Hadith that deals with it? Are there other commentaries that examine it in more detail that are available in English or English translation?

um well there are verses that do i suport this hopefully some1 here can lead u to those... regarding the doctrine u need do u mean the quran or the explanation? if u mean the quran there is indeed:D

(a) What about the other Jewish and Christian scriptures?
well u tell me... there are liek a 1ooo versions of the bible.... im confused...

b) What is the "Tables of Abraham?" Are they available on line or otherwise?

the tables of abraham to the ebst of my knowledge where the laws or messages that god sent to abraham to follow...

3) Is there any commentary on when this corruption occurred? I ask because we now have some sources [the Dead Sea Scrolls] that date back between 2,000-2,300 years and that appear to be pretty close to the present version of, at least, the Jewish Scriptures [except for some major differences in the Book of Daniel - which is not part of the Torah, and omission of the book of Esther - which also not part of the Torah]

well this corruption as a result of corruupt jews who made changes according to their liking if u noe wat i mean....
also the death of prophet moses and teh coming of the new prophet mohammed was a loooooooong time so ppl tended to bcome to b corropt, forget the try teachigs etc... and this is how it came about...

(4) Is there any systematic account of what is corrupt and what isn't in these scriptures?
well only someone who has read the torah can say this... but accordign to us the quran was the final book although we do believe in moses and jesus and in their books\
yet for us the quran is the final book with the final message to mankind as the quran and islam in general covers all matters of life... politically,scientifically, economically, socially, daily unlike the bible and torah with all due respect...

i noe my answers ddint satisfy u but im srry... :D
and welcome to the site:D

[Sister Khadija]

Assalam Alakium, Peace be with you

For an initial issue re Comparative Religion, I am interested in more information on what I have been told is the Islam doctrine that the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity, albeit originally "given," in a sense similar to the giving of the Qur'an, have been corrupted. I have several questions about this doctrine:
1) I have never been able to get any of the people who have mentioned this doctrine to identify its source. Is there a verse or verses in the Qur'an or a Hadith that deals with it? Are there other commentaries that examine it in more detail that are available in English or English translation?

We must first of all know that the entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption! "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.

The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

(2) I understand that this doctrine mentions the Torah of the Jewish Scriptures, the Gospels of the Christian scriptures and something called the Tables of Abraham.

(a) What about the other Jewish and Christian scriptures?

b) What is the "Tables of Abraham?" Are they available on line or otherwise?

It is worth noting, and well known throughout the religious world, that the choice of the present four "gospels" of the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) were imposed in the Council of Nicea 325 CE for political purposes under the auspices of the pagan Emperor Constantine, and not by Jesus. Constantine’s mind had not been enlightened either by study or by inspiration. He was a pagan, a tyrant and criminal who murdered his son, his wife and thousands of innocent individuals because of his lust for political power. Constantine ratified other decisions in the Nicene Creed such as the decision to call Christ "the Son of God, only begotten of the father."

Literally, hundreds of gospels and religious writings were hidden from the people. Some of those writings were written by Jesus’ disciples, and many of them were eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ actions. The Nicea Council decided to destroy all gospels written in Hebrew, which resulted in the burning of nearly three hundred accounts. If these writings were not more authentic than the four present gospels, they were of equal authenticity. Some of them are still available such as the Gospel of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas which agree with the Quran. The Gospel of Barnabas, until now, is the only eyewitness account of the life and mission of Jesus. Even today, the whole of the Protestant word, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and other sects and denominations condemn the Roman Catholic version of the Bible because it contains seven "extra" books. The Protestant have bravely expunged seven whole books from their word of God. A few of the outcasts are the Books of Judith, Tobnias, Baruch and Esther.

Concerning Jesus’ teachings of the Gospel (Injeel), the Gospel writers frequently mentioned Jesus preaching the Gospel: Matthew 9:35, Mark 8:35, and Luke 20:1. The word "gospel" is recurrently used in the Bible. However, in the New Testament Greek edition the word Evangeline is used in place of the word gospel, which is translated to mean good news. My question was: what Gospel did Jesus preach? Of the 27 books of the New Testament, only a small fraction can be accepted as the words of Jesus, and only of the 27 books are known to be attributed as the Gospel of Jesus. The remaining 23 were supposedly written by Paul. Muslims do believe that Jesus was given God’s "Good News." However, they do not recognized the present four Gospels as the utterances of Jesus.

(3) Is there any commentary on when this corruption occurred? I ask because we now have some sources [the Dead Sea Scrolls] that date back between 2,000-2,300 years and that appear to be pretty close to the present version of, at least, the Jewish Scriptures [except for some major differences in the Book of Daniel - which is not part of the Torah, and omission of the book of Esther - which also not part of the Torah]

(4) Is there any systematic account of what is corrupt and what isn't in these scriptures?

It should be mentioned that Muslims must believe in all Divine scriptures in their original form, their Prophets and making no distinction between them: The Suhuf (Abraham); Torah (Moses); Psalms (David); Gospel - or the Injeel (Jesus); and the Quran (Muhammad). It is clearly stated in the Quran 3:3 that Allah sent down the Torah and the Gospel. However, none of these scriptures remains in its original form now, except the Quran, which was sent for all mankind everywhere and for all times.

In addition to other reasons why the Quran was sent to mankind, as mentioned in 18:4-5 it was sent to warn the Christians of a terrible punishment from God if they cease not in saying: "Allah has begotten a son."

Muslims sincerely believe that everything Jesus (May the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) preached was from God; the Gospel (Injeel): The "good news" and the guidance of God for the Children of Israel. There is no place mentioned in the present four Gospels that Jesus wrote a single word of his Gospel, nor is it mentioned that Jesus instructed anyone to do so. What passes off, as the "Gospels" today are the works of third party human hands. The Quran 2:79 says:
"And woe to those who write the book with their own hands and they say: "This is from Allah (God)." To traffic with it for a miserable price! So woe to them for what their hands do write, and woe to them for what they earn thereby!"

Allah, Glory to be Him, provided every one of His prophets with books which He revealed to them. Those books or scriptures contained the tenets and fundamentals of religion as well as the instructions and commandments of Allah conveyed to various nations through His Messengers. The holy books were meant to be records of religion so that the various people and nations of the world might refer to them to know the ordinances and laws revealed by Allah and comply with them.

On the one hand, we are required to believe in all revealed books at large. On the other, we are required to believe in certain books which Allah told us He had revealed, namely:

1. The Qur'an, revealed to Muhammad;
2. The Gospel, revealed to Jesus;
3. The Psalms, revealed to David;
4. The Torah, revealed to Moses;
5. The Tablets, of Ibrahim (i.e., Abraham) and Moses (May peace and blessing of Allah be upon them).
Although books revealed to prophets before Muhammad (the last Messenger of Allah) were just temporary revelations each addressed to a particular tribe or nation, yet it is incumbent upon by Muslims to believe in them in general, and in the Qur'an on detailed basis in particular. The Qur'an is the final and comprehensive Scripture. It is the only book of Allah which has remained free from distortion and change, and has been transmitted to us whole in the most reliable ways and in its original text-a feature not enjoyed by any of the earlier books of revelation.

The current Bible is not all the True Word of GOD Almighty. It is full of doubts and man made corruption as was proven above. How can we believe in a doubtful book as the Perfect Book of GOD Almighty? Allah Almighty said in the Noble Quran regarding those who try to corrupt His Holy Words: "Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book [the Bible], but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book [the Bible] with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-79)"

I really don't see any point in even trying to argue with anybody about any verse from the Bible at this point after reading this article, because most of the books of the bible are not valid enough to be even worth looking at. So to try to prove Trinity from a book that is for the most part a big hoax would indeed be a blasphemy.

To say the least in our case here: The Bible without a doubt is NOT a perfect book! In fact, it's even far beyond from being anywhere close to perfect! Therefore, it can't be the perfect book of the Perfect GOD Almighty.

Salaam,
Sister Khadija :sister:

[miseshayek]

You seem to be missing most of the questions. So let me try it again.
===================================

"We must first of all know that the entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption! "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.

The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption."
===========================================

That is very interesting, but the question was in which Islamic authorities is this doctrine stated. Do you have citations to the Qur'an, to the Hadith or to other authoritative ISLAMIC commentaries that reference or explain it? I am not asking for a case that the doctrine is right or wrong, I am asking for the sources so that I may read them for myself.

================================================== =

It is worth noting, and well known throughout the religious world, that the choice of the present four "gospels" of the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) were imposed in the Council of Nicea 325 CE for political purposes under the auspices of the pagan Emperor Constantine, and not by Jesus. Constantine’s mind had not been enlightened either by study or by inspiration. He was a pagan, a tyrant and criminal who murdered his son, his wife and thousands of innocent individuals because of his lust for political power. Constantine ratified other decisions in the Nicene Creed such as the decision to call Christ "the Son of God, only begotten of the father."

Literally, hundreds of gospels and religious writings were hidden from the people. Some of those writings were written by Jesus’ disciples, and many of them were eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ actions. The Nicea Council decided to destroy all gospels written in Hebrew, which resulted in the burning of nearly three hundred accounts. If these writings were not more authentic than the four present gospels, they were of equal authenticity. Some of them are still available such as the Gospel of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas which agree with the Quran. The Gospel of Barnabas, until now, is the only eyewitness account of the life and mission of Jesus. Even today, the whole of the Protestant word, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and other sects and denominations condemn the Roman Catholic version of the Bible because it contains seven "extra" books. The Protestant have bravely expunged seven whole books from their word of God. A few of the outcasts are the Books of Judith, Tobnias, Baruch and Esther.

Concerning Jesus’ teachings of the Gospel (Injeel), the Gospel writers frequently mentioned Jesus preaching the Gospel: Matthew 9:35, Mark 8:35, and Luke 20:1. The word "gospel" is recurrently used in the Bible. However, in the New Testament Greek edition the word Evangeline is used in place of the word gospel, which is translated to mean good news. My question was: what Gospel did Jesus preach? Of the 27 books of the New Testament, only a small fraction can be accepted as the words of Jesus, and only of the 27 books are known to be attributed as the Gospel of Jesus. The remaining 23 were supposedly written by Paul. Muslims do believe that Jesus was given God’s "Good News." However, they do not recognized the present four Gospels as the utterances of Jesus.

=======================================

Again, very interesting, but not responsive to the question that I asked. The question I asked was whether or not there were Qur'anic or Hadiths or other Islamic authorities that considered the Jewish Scriptures beyond the Torah or the Christian scriptures beyond the Gospels. I understand that you have independently studied these matters, but I hope that you are not holding yourself out as the source of Islam?

============================================

It should be mentioned that Muslims must believe in all Divine scriptures in their original form, their Prophets and making no distinction between them: The Suhuf (Abraham); Torah (Moses); Psalms (David); Gospel - or the Injeel (Jesus); and the Quran (Muhammad). It is clearly stated in the Quran 3:3 that Allah sent down the Torah and the Gospel. However, none of these scriptures remains in its original form now, except the Quran, which was sent for all mankind everywhere and for all times.

In addition to other reasons why the Quran was sent to mankind, as mentioned in 18:4-5 it was sent to warn the Christians of a terrible punishment from God if they cease not in saying: "Allah has begotten a son."

Muslims sincerely believe that everything Jesus (May the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) preached was from God; the Gospel (Injeel): The "good news" and the guidance of God for the Children of Israel. There is no place mentioned in the present four Gospels that Jesus wrote a single word of his Gospel, nor is it mentioned that Jesus instructed anyone to do so. What passes off, as the "Gospels" today are the works of third party human hands. The Quran 2:79 says:
"And woe to those who write the book with their own hands and they say: "This is from Allah (God)." To traffic with it for a miserable price! So woe to them for what their hands do write, and woe to them for what they earn thereby!"

Allah, Glory to be Him, provided every one of His prophets with books which He revealed to them. Those books or scriptures contained the tenets and fundamentals of religion as well as the instructions and commandments of Allah conveyed to various nations through His Messengers. The holy books were meant to be records of religion so that the various people and nations of the world might refer to them to know the ordinances and laws revealed by Allah and comply with them.

On the one hand, we are required to believe in all revealed books at large. On the other, we are required to believe in certain books which Allah told us He had revealed, namely:

1. The Qur'an, revealed to Muhammad;
2. The Gospel, revealed to Jesus;
3. The Psalms, revealed to David;
4. The Torah, revealed to Moses;
5. The Tablets, of Ibrahim (i.e., Abraham) and Moses (May peace and blessing of Allah be upon them).

======================================

Sister, you just don't seem to be "getting it". I am not interested in an argument about whether the Bible is corrupt or not. I have asked some "seeker" questions about what Islam teaches and the authorities that embody those teachings. What I am getting back in response from you is a street sermon.

The third question I had asked was where I might find a copy of the "Tables of Abraham". Could you provide an answer to that specific question and to the previous two?

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[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi miseshayek,

(1) I have never been able to get any of the people who have mentioned this doctrine to identify its source. Is there a verse or verses in the Qur'an or a Hadith that deals with it?

There are a number of verses in the Qur'an which deal with this. One such verse is 2:79 and the accompanying Hadith is as follows:

Az-Zuhri said that `Ubadydullah bin `Abdullah narrated that Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims! How could you ask the People of the Book about anything, while the Book of Allah (Qur'an) that He revealed to His Prophet is the most recent Book from Him and you still read it fresh and young Allah told you that the People of the Book altered the Book of Allah, changed it and wrote another book with their own hands. They then said, `This book is from Allah,' so that they acquired a small profit by it. Hasn't the knowledge that came to you prohibited you from asking them By Allah! We have not seen any of them asking you about what was revealed to you.'' (Ibn Abi Hatim, 1:245)
This Hadith was also collected by Al-Bukhari. (Fath Al-Bari 5:244, 13:345 &555)

(2) I understand that this doctrine mentions the Torah of the Jewish Scriptures, the Gospels of the Christian scriptures and something called the Tables of Abraham.

(a) What about the other Jewish and Christian scriptures?

The belief states that the original revelations given to other prophets have not remained intact until today. That means for many revelations we simply do not know if they were originally from God and were then corrupted, or if they were never from God in the first place.

(b) What is the "Tables of Abraham?" Are they available on line or otherwise?

I think what you are referring to is the suhuf (scriptures) of Abraham, which is mentioned in verse 87:19. These scriptures are most likely lost completely and I don't anything of them remains in any of the present world scriptures.

(3) Is there any commentary on when this corruption occurred?

There is an excellent and comprehensive work on this subject by Dr. M. M. Al-Azami:
http://onlineislamicstore.com/b7626.html
He examines the compilation and preservation of the Qur'an, Old Testament and New testament in great detail.

You can also read the following articles online:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bib.../BibleTex.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/

(4) Is there any systematic account of what is corrupt and what isn't in these scriptures?

The Qur'an is the criterion (furqan). Whatever agrees with the Qur'an is taken to be true, and whatever contradicts it is taken to be false. As for the material that is neither confirmed nor contrary to the Qur'an, we cannot pass judgement on it.

I hope this helps.

Regards

[miseshayek]

Thank you very much, Ansar [if I may refer to you by your first name]. That is EXACTLY what I have been looking for. I particularly appreciate the links to the more extensive commentaries.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Thank you very much, Ansar [if I may refer to you by your first name].

Sure. :)

That is EXACTLY what I have been looking for. I particularly appreciate the links to the more extensive commentaries.

No problem. It's always a pleasure to help out.

Regards