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Jeness18
02-19-2006, 06:40 PM
Do those American women who expose their beauty really deserve respect? Or do Muslim women deserve and receive more respect?

American Women

To this world- beauty is what is shown in magazines and in photographs... Beauty isn't something to show off as American women do, but...

Muslim Women

Many people call it hiding your beauty, I call it truly showing it because you are all so lucky...people get to see your true beauty- What is in inside of you. People get to see your personality and they judge you on that. That is what is important.

Who deserves more respect?

Muslim Women deserve it and definitely get it. The media makes it seem like they don't get respect but they do. I always used to think that Muslim women never got respect, but once I read this article...I noticed how highly held women are in your society.

I found this and I thought that this might be worth to see... It really put everything into perspective.
“Jewels Are Precious – So Protect Them”. Sister you are the Jewel, you are Precious, and you need Protection. Your Creator has shown you long ago how to protect yourself but Laa, No you won’t heed him, you will do what you like, dress yourself as you like and go wherever you like… and afterwards you’ll cry, but for some of you it will be too LATE.
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nafy
02-19-2006, 06:50 PM
Hey
thankz 2 dat post Jeness18 was nice to read i must say....its a relief from the usual point of view about muslim women bein opressed due to the way they dress...
n u r actually very correct...we do get alot of respect....the islamic dress code is protection for muslim women....it helps to show that women are not to be used by men for sex.....it gives us an identity which am really proud of! :)
again thank u for that :)
take care
peace :)
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Protected_Diamond
02-19-2006, 06:59 PM
Of course Alhamdulilah (All praise is to Allah s.w.a)

Good thread you've started with many good points....Definitely i feel as though muslim boys in college - ( not just in college outside as well) have respect for me and other practising sisters. For example signs of respect is that they lower their gaze and speak when only necessary...etc

Obviosuly the media are going to make lies up and protray Islam as oppressing women and so on.

Peace! :)
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Lush
02-19-2006, 08:28 PM
I don't think we should be competing for respect. Respect is an earned quality; if the only way for a woman to get respect is based strictly on her outward appeareance, well, we're all losers then, aren't we? When I ride the bus to class in my t-shirt and skirt, I don't compete with the girl in the niqaab for respect, and she doesn't do the same with me.

We're all different. It's up to us to respect each other's differences, at university and otherwise.

I feel bad when someone critiques a friend of mine for her hijab. I feel equally bad when someone thinks it's somehow Ok to disrespect me because I dress differently than my Muslim friends.
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Jeness18
02-19-2006, 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by Lush
I feel equally bad when someone thinks it's somehow Ok to disrespect me because I dress differently than my Muslim friends.
Dress however you want...I didn't say I'd disrespect you for being different. I understand how it is to grow up in a society where you are pressured to look a certain way... dress a certain way... be who you want to be. I'm sorry if my post offended you.
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Takumi
02-19-2006, 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by Jeness18
Do those American women who expose their beauty really deserve respect? Or do Muslim women deserve and receive more respect?

[B]American Women[B]

To this world- beauty is what is shown in magazines and in photographs... Beauty isn't something to show off as American women do, but...

Muslim Women

Many people call it hiding your beauty, I call it truly showing it because you are all so lucky...people get to see your true beauty- What is in inside of you. People get to see your personality and they judge you on that. That is what is important.

Who deserves more respect?

Muslim Women deserve it and definitely get it. The media makes it seem like they don't get respect but they do. I always used to think that Muslim women never got respect, but once I read this article...I noticed how highly held women are in your society.
I think the title of this thread is misleading. Muslim women expose their bodies too. Maybe you should re word this thread.
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The Ruler
02-19-2006, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Takumi
I think the title of this thread is misleading. Muslim women expose their bodies too. Maybe you should re word this thread.
da girls dat do not cover der body from males wen dey reach dey age of puberty r only muslims by name not by heart....but if i ask a muslim gal she wud say dat it is bcuz to cover up in da Uk is dangerous :confused:...i really dunno. i mean if u follow islam wid all ur heart, u WUD cover ur self up bcuz coverin up in da UK is not dangerous. :hmm:
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Muezzin
02-19-2006, 09:16 PM
I think everyone deserves respect, unless their actions show otherwise.

Who actually gets respect is a different matter ;)

Nice post though, Jeness. I see your point.
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minaz
02-19-2006, 09:20 PM
RESPECT to this thread
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Muezzin
02-19-2006, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by minaz
RESPECT to this thread
Just a little bit

Just a little bit

R-E-S-P-E-C-T etc etc

:p

I went to Disneyland and Minne Mouse was singing that song. Surreal goodness.
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Anette
02-19-2006, 09:31 PM
Beauty is always a question regarding what is inside. Otherwise it is appearance.

I try to never judge anyone for his or her appearance but for inner qualities. However I think the way Muslims showing their women respect is really nice. Like saying: “I respect you for who you are”. That’s a really nice way showing someone respect.
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bezimany 071
02-19-2006, 11:42 PM
salaam
here are my 2 cents
i wont talk about american woman, but i will talk about a woman on the cover of a magazine, or a woman in comercial where she is holding a six pack of beer and posing in her bikini exposing her lustfull six pack belly.....
that woman doesnt stand a chance next to a muslim woman......
respect?.....if she demands respect from me the only thing i could respond would be "would you like fries with that miss?".....
dont get me wrong, i respect all beings, but dont demand respect from me if you choose to objectify yourself as a sex tool, or if you chose to be ignorant....
muslim woman who wears hijab in my eyes hold unexplainable amount of beauty, because the only thing i can see is her face, the rest is mistery, and the thing is i dont think about the rest because if im talking to this sister i would pay attention to her, not her body parts.....im only human, of course if i see a woman who is frolicking around half naked i might check her out......but there would not be anything that could inspire me to walk up to her and spark up a conversation
in another words.....if you want people to respect you , than carry yourself in respectful manner and give respect to others first.....

so who deserves more respect.....(drum roll).....muslim sistaaaaaahhhhzzzz who stays on top of her deen
respect
bez
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DaSangarTalib
02-19-2006, 11:45 PM
^^ i agree with you brother
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Eric H
02-19-2006, 11:47 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Annette,
Like saying: “I respect you for who you are”.
But do we all have the confidence to be the person we really are.
Maybe it is to think do some people doubt themselves, can they only be loved if they have heaps of cosmetic surgery. Will people only come to love the plastic and silicone that masks the person inside?

We seem to be travelling down a road fraught with danger,

In the spirit of striving to stick with the beauty that God created everyone of us with

Eric
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Halima
02-19-2006, 11:50 PM
:sl:


Who gets more respect?




As a muslim woman, I must certainly tell you that I get alot of respect for who I am. I dress modestly, I act modestly and I speak modestly. I dont judge American women therefore I won't crtiticize them by their dressing or by their promiscous behaviors. Do american women get more repspect? From my eyes just from the streets alone american women don't get repsect. they have to adjust themselves to this society before getting respect. they have to get respect the hard way. We get it the easy way. We as muslim woman hold our dignity and identities with high pride.


We do not have to wear skirts above our knees to just get respect.
We don't have to wear half t-shirts just to attain respect.
most of all, we don't have to walk on the streets prancing arounf half naked just to catch the eye of a man. Islam protects us to such an extent, that it preserves our dignity and modesty for us. We hide our beauty to preserve this from our husbands.


American women have no more beauty left to flaunt by the time they are married unlike us.



:w:
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Trumble
02-20-2006, 12:10 AM
You have a pretty weird idea of what is worthy of "respect", IMHO.

Maybe that "American woman" is a surgeon, who saves people's lives every day? Maybe that muslim woman is a great poet? THAT would be worthy of respect, not how long their skirt is. Why should a change of clothes generate "respect"?

Its the person inside that counts, what they do, and who they are. Why should acting and speaking modestly be particularly commendable? What is there to be "modest" about?
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Sub-Zero
02-20-2006, 12:32 AM
lol ... you do know there are american muslim girls right?

and the responses here are biased as hell
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Sub-Zero
02-20-2006, 12:39 AM
also what's with picking on american girls? trust me, european, brazilian girls show way more skin.
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shorouk
02-20-2006, 12:53 AM
Jeness u have said something so butiful really...wen a male at school or in the street or my male neighbors talk to me and befriend me i know it is not for my body i know it is for who i am i know it is for my personality

regarding american women i have to say there are alot of them who are good people who are respectful and nice but they dress so according to their soceitey...
and i must say the insides are much more important than the outside appearance...
and yes muslim women have all the right that men have for example we have the right to work to learn to drive to go out to have our own money
if i wrk for example in not required to share it with my husband even if he needs it i can do naythign wth and my husband father or brother has no right to ask... a women can participate in politics and run her own business
these are from among the many rights that muslim women have and many many muslim women do this wearing the higab...
and also i wnat to say something higab is not covering urself with an ugly black clothing not tru alot of muslim ladies wear skirts shirts and pants that is respctful and not tight fittign but loose and it is considered higab and respectful...
peace... thnx Jeness for having an open mind and not think that were oppressd or sth loool...
peace...
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shorouk
02-20-2006, 01:05 AM
Sub-Zero actaully ur right there are alot of american muslim girls...
i dont noe if u muslim or not or even arab but i will tell that if u were to go to certain arabic countries like egypt, lebonon, etc u will see alot of girls who dress with very tight and revealing clothes and they are arab muslims ...
u see im arab but i will admit this...
if u watch or see arabic music videos they are just liek american ones... so no1 is sayign that muslim girls are angels loool

its just that wen ur covered u noe that he opposite sex has accepted and befriended u for who are and this u can b sure of as a girl i mean...

and also the inside is very very important...
there can b some1 covered who has bad manners and is not good hearted.. and some other girl who is not covered and is very nice good hearted and with 10/10 manners....
Trumble
ur riht too but every1 has diff views...
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Jeness18
02-20-2006, 01:15 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
You have a pretty weird idea of what is worthy of "respect", IMHO.

Maybe that "American woman" is a surgeon, who saves people's lives every day? Maybe that muslim woman is a great poet? THAT would be worthy of respect, not how long their skirt is. Why should a change of clothes generate "respect"?

Its the person inside that counts, what they do, and who they are. Why should acting and speaking modestly be particularly commendable? What is there to be "modest" about?
Good points. I understand what you are saying.
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Lush
02-20-2006, 01:17 AM
J, I wasn't offended by your post in the least, I just don't think that there should be a competition. I see a lot of cultural misunderstanding between women who cover up and women who don't. We shouldn't do this to each other, we shouldn't demean one another to try and make ourselves feel better about our choices. Already on this thread I see female and male Muslims making wild generalizations about what they perceive as the "Other," not understanding that their words could be deeply hurtful to someone else. :(
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Issa
02-20-2006, 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
I think everyone deserves respect, unless their actions show otherwise.

Who actually gets respect is a different matter ;)

Nice post though, Jeness. I see your point.
:sl: ,
I agree with you, brother!
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Jeness18
02-20-2006, 01:34 AM
Originally Posted by Lush
J, I wasn't offended by your post in the least, I just don't think that there should be a competition. I see a lot of cultural misunderstanding between women who cover up and women who don't. We shouldn't do this to each other, we shouldn't demean one another to try and make ourselves feel better about our choices. Already on this thread I see female and male Muslims making wild generalizations about what they perceive as the "Other," not understanding that their words could be deeply hurtful to someone else. :(
Glad to hear that I didn't offend you. You may think that these people are making wild generalizations, but they could be true. That is a generalization by you calling what they say a generalization. I encourage people voicing their opinions and I didn't see cultural misunderstanding... I bet people didn't intend to hurt someone else if they have.
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Halima
02-20-2006, 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
You have a pretty weird idea of what is worthy of "respect", IMHO.

No, that's just how we are taught to behave in Islam ( the right way) AND for the sake of Allah

Maybe that "American woman" is a surgeon, who saves people's lives every day? Maybe that muslim woman is a great poet? THAT would be worthy of respect, not how long their skirt is. Why should a change of clothes generate "respect"?


You think so? It's kinda ironic, because I have far more respect for female doctors wether they be buddist, jewish, muslim, or even baptists over girls that like to to spark men's arousal by intentionally flaunting their breasts on cover magazines just to show the perfect 'body'. Come to think of it, no wonder its a trend and a neccessity for women to get facial and breast implants. Such a thing wasn't even heard of in America and the west 2,000 years ago when everything was conservative and proper.



Its the person inside that counts, what they do, and who they are. Why should acting and speaking modestly be particularly commendable? What is there to be "modest" about?

Not familar with human physchology? Let me break it down to you. Heard of a1st impression? Why do women have to dress formally for a job interview? So that she can make a first impression! Do you actually think if a woman coming in a leotard for an interview will get her job? Of course not. The boss will then get a bad impression of her. what if she comes to a funeral wearing a skirt and a tank top? What will the pastor think of her? Now apply of all these scenarios to a muslim women. In Islam, it is not even a choice if we dress modest or not. This is something that is required BOTH by men and women. White or black, asian or hispanic. We have to apply modesty in our lives to uphold our honor and dignity therefore not to ruin our reptuation. Wearing a hijab is apart of the modest means. Niquab is even better. Speaking is apart of our awrah. We have to speak in a tone that will not ignite men's arousal. Act modestly so we will not be portrayed as hollards, tarts, or prostitues.
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Lush
02-20-2006, 01:51 AM
do you actually think if a woman coming in a leotard for an interview will get her job?
LOL! What if she's applying for a job as a dancer? ;)
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-20-2006, 02:16 AM
:sl:
The new book that's come out on this topic is Sacred Freedom, an insightful analysis of western and Islamic perspectives on freedom, respect, modesty, etc.:
http://sacredfreedom.net/

:w:
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Muezzin
02-20-2006, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
You have a pretty weird idea of what is worthy of "respect", IMHO.

Maybe that "American woman" is a surgeon, who saves people's lives every day? Maybe that muslim woman is a great poet? THAT would be worthy of respect, not how long their skirt is. Why should a change of clothes generate "respect"?

Its the person inside that counts, what they do, and who they are. Why should acting and speaking modestly be particularly commendable? What is there to be "modest" about?
'It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me'

-Batman

;) :p
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nihma333
02-24-2006, 12:36 AM
I think that it really depends on what side of the spectrum you're looking at here. I think that Islam is so blatently disrespected, that it's not even cute. However in general Muslim woman are respected and should be. When people speak to me they usually express an extraordinary amount of respect. If they curse they automatically apologize, and I ask them "what made you do that?"
The response time and time again is "well look at the way you carry yourself". but what triggered that? ....obviously Islam.

Now why is that American women are only being disscussed? Firstly, I am an American woman, as are many other Muslim women. So maybe that needs to be clarified. If the comparison is intended to contrast models, commercialized woman, and innapropraitely dressed woman in general then those type of people can be found in almost every country except maybe Antartica.

Lastly, everyone should be respected. The way of the Rasul (saw) was/is the best way.... but then again people only tend to reciprocate the amount of respect shown to them.

Masalam,
Naimah
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Lush
02-24-2006, 07:54 PM
Hmmm....

It's strange for me to be participating on this thread, because I've worked as a model before, and continue to do so sometimes (just for fun these days, not for any commercial reasons anymore).

I haven't posed nude, I am not comfortable with that, and I haven't posed in a bathing suit or lingerie, but I am comfortable with showing my body in certain other ways, especially when it comes to art photography (I particularly like black and white). My mother raised me to love the human form and to not be ashamed of it, as long as it is treated with respect.

Furthermore, I have seen many girls from back home who would have otherwise been subject to the worst kind of poverty enter the modeling business and earn money and support their families and themselves. While I don't think that modeling is a particularly ethical or healthy business on the whole, but I've seen many sides of it, and I've met many cool people through it, and it dismays me when others feel they have the right to dehumanize or slander them.

Yet I guess this makes it OK for some members of this forum to disrespect me?
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Snowflake
02-24-2006, 09:34 PM
Jeness18;189013]Do those American women who expose their beauty really deserve respect? Or do Muslim women deserve and receive more respect?
Greetings,

I honestly believe every humanbeing deserves respect. Being scantily dressed doesnt necessarily mean that those women are bad. They could be very nice, kind, and compassionate humanbeings. They might leave a lot to be desired when it comes to their dress sense, but that doesnt mean they should not be respected. And muslim women who cover their bodies deserve and earn respect from only those who understand the purpose of doing so.

Having said that, not all western women expose their bodies and not all muslim women cover up.

Peace
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Muezzin
02-24-2006, 10:39 PM
Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
Greetings,

I honestly believe every humanbeing deserves respect. Being scantily dressed doesnt necessarily mean that those women are bad. They could be very nice, kind, and compassionate humanbeings. They might leave a lot to be desired when it comes to their dress sense, but that doesnt mean they should not be respected.
On the contrary, their dress sense creates lots of desire. :p
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nihma333
02-25-2006, 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by Lush
Hmmm....

Yet I guess this makes it OK for some members of this forum to disrespect me?

WOWSERS!... It's a very sad situation that you put yourself in by saying that. That's completely rediculous! :(
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Halima
02-25-2006, 03:40 AM
:sl:

The fact of the matter is that if your a muslim woman you're supposed to dress modestly, wether you get respect or not and if you don't dress modestly, you will face some major critical consequences from Allah(swt).

For non-muslim women, it's up to you if you want to dress half naked or not. It's on account for how much respect you will recieve anyways. Although without insulting or offending anyone, wouldn't dressing un-modestly be the easiest target for rape? I would certainly think that common sense tells it all. Yes?

:w:
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Lush
02-25-2006, 05:33 AM
It's on account for how much respect you will recieve anyways.
Er... I'm not sure I'm following you here. What does the above mean?

Although without insulting or offending anyone, wouldn't dressing un-modestly be the easiest target for rape? I would certainly think that common sense tells it all. Yes?
No. Rape is a violent crime. Most women who are raped are raped by their friends/acquaintances, or in war zones. Instances of strange men seeing a strange woman, appraising the way she is dressed, and raping her based on that, are rare.
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handhuvar
02-28-2006, 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by Jeness18
Do those American women who expose their beauty really deserve respect? Or do Muslim women deserve and receive more respect?

American Women

To this world- beauty is what is shown in magazines and in photographs... Beauty isn't something to show off as American women do, but...

Muslim Women

Many people call it hiding your beauty, I call it truly showing it because you are all so lucky...people get to see your true beauty- What is in inside of you. People get to see your personality and they judge you on that. That is what is important.

Who deserves more respect?

Muslim Women deserve it and definitely get it. The media makes it seem like they don't get respect but they do. I always used to think that Muslim women never got respect, but once I read this article...I noticed how highly held women are in your society.

I found this and I thought that this might be worth to see... It really put everything into perspective.
“Jewels Are Precious – So Protect Them”. Sister you are the Jewel, you are Precious, and you need Protection. Your Creator has shown you long ago how to protect yourself but Laa, No you won’t heed him, you will do what you like, dress yourself as you like and go wherever you like… and afterwards you’ll cry, but for some of you it will be too LATE.
:sl:

thats a nice one thanx :)
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Snowflake
02-28-2006, 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by Lush
Er... I'm not sure I'm following you here. What does the above mean?



No. Rape is a violent crime. Most women who are raped are raped by their friends/acquaintances, or in war zones. Instances of strange men seeing a strange woman, appraising the way she is dressed, and raping her based on that, are rare.
True. Old ladies are raped too. Wives are raped by their husbands. It just goes to show that men who have it in them to rape will do it regardless of how the woman is dressed.
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family
02-28-2006, 06:05 PM
very nice post Halima
alhumdulilah that we are muslims
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Cheb
02-28-2006, 06:08 PM
Salam.
Very good thread you have started here Jeness. The reason why I have a great deal of respect for mihajaba Muslim women is because of what the hijab represents. It says that the woman has submitted to God and not to peer pressure. That is actually a problem these days. Girls are finding it hard to submit to God because they fear it may affect their social life. I am talking about all women, Muslim or not. Here in the UAE it is becoming more and more like the West. People generally wear whatever they choose. Short skirts and transparent tops are getting quite common these days.
As a guy I witness some of the comments guys make when a girl passes by. If that girl is wearing something revealing, usually the comment would be something disrespectful towards that girl. I am sure that is how it is in most parts of the world. However, if it is a girl wearing a hijab, you would rarely hear anyone commenting.
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Guli7
02-28-2006, 10:14 PM
I may not be covered, but I dress very conservatively. That is how I was raised. I always have worn sleeved shirts and long skirts/pants.

It has to do with your own family/upbringing. I think as long as you dress modestly its alright. Following the 5 pillars is key and the rest well....let Allah decide on each person.
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Lush
03-01-2006, 02:22 AM
Originally Posted by Cheb
Salam.
If that girl is wearing something revealing, usually the comment would be something disrespectful towards that girl.
And they have no right to be disrespectful. If they are simply commenting on how pretty she looks, that's usually acceptable. But attempting to dehumanize her? That should not be allowed in any civilized community. Nevertheless, if it does happen, it should not define the woman. Cat-calling happened to me all the time in Amman, I just ignored it and went on my merry way.

I am sure that is how it is in most parts of the world.
Um, no.

However, if it is a girl wearing a hijab, you would rarely hear anyone commenting.
From what I understand, hijab should not be about submitting to the male gaze. Hijab should be a choice by the woman, for the woman. It should define her own level of comfort with her body.

My comfort with my body allows me to be a model. Is it Ok to disrespect me? Not some faceless, nameless girl from a magazine, but an actual person in front of you, a member of this forum.
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akulion
03-01-2006, 02:53 AM
Respect is earned through the actions of a person in my opinion

Also we should respect all people irrespective

However we should not associate with people who persistantly are proving themselves to be undeserving of respect - but we should not stop kindnesses
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Lush
03-01-2006, 04:02 AM
However we should not associate with people who persistantly are proving themselves to be undeserving of respect - but we should not stop kindnesses
Que sera?
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akulion
03-01-2006, 05:54 AM
Please speak english i dont understand you last query
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Lush
03-01-2006, 07:12 AM
Que sera, sera, is a common term for "what will be, will be"

I put a question mark next to it because I wasn't sure what you meant by your above comment about who "deserves" respect. There seems to be a whole lot of talk on "deserving it" happening on this thread. I do not really understand it.
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Cheb
03-01-2006, 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by Lush
And they have no right to be disrespectful. If they are simply commenting on how pretty she looks, that's usually acceptable. But attempting to dehumanize her? That should not be allowed in any civilized community. Nevertheless, if it does happen, it should not define the woman. Cat-calling happened to me all the time in Amman, I just ignored it and went on my merry way.
Actually even commenting on how pretty she looks should not be allowed. I am not justifying the comments people make, what I am saying is usually the girl will bring such comments to herself. When wearing revealing clothes, it is hard for some guys to control themselves. Well let me just say that a man in a cop's uniform, is usually assumed to be a cop. I will try to keep it at that. I hope you get what I mean.



Originally Posted by Lush
Um, no.
So you think a girl wearing revealing clothes will not be looked at and commented on in most parts of the world? That is a first.



Originally Posted by Lush
From what I understand, hijab should not be about submitting to the male gaze. Hijab should be a choice by the woman, for the woman. It should define her own level of comfort with her body.
Hijab is about many things, one being to avoid the male gaze and saving both parties from sins. In fact hijab is not a "choice" it is fard, which means Islam makes it a must that a woman wears it. However no one can force her to wear it of course.

Originally Posted by Lush
My comfort with my body allows me to be a model. Is it Ok to disrespect me? Not some faceless, nameless girl from a magazine, but an actual person in front of you, a member of this forum.
Well what do models do? They sell their bodies isnt it? Not literally like a you know what. But they do. They are selling their bodies to a magazine!
So for me personally, I would not disrespect someone who is a model, I would just have less respect for her. My opinion of a person is made up based on many factors, not just one. And it is important to know that disrespecting is different than not respecting someone (or respecting them less).
Sorry I hope I did not misunderstand your comment here.
Peace.
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Guli7
03-01-2006, 05:10 PM
I think it has more to do with personality. Its just not about a hijab.

I know plenty of girls who wear hijabs but also put tons of make up on and their clothes cover their bodies but are skin tight. Guys will look anyway and they do.

So I think it has to do more with dressing modestly and your personality. A covered girl I knew flirted with guys all the time.

It was a bit hypocritical. If you are to wear a hijab, I think you have to understand what you are about to do affects everything about you and not just covering your head.
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Lush
03-01-2006, 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by Cheb
So you think a girl wearing revealing clothes will not be looked at and commented on in most parts of the world? That is a first.
She will be looked and commented on, but usually not in a cruel way. She will not be called a "-----." She will not be singled out as an appropriate target for rape or sexual harrassment. Remember, "revealing" itself is a concept that changes liberally from person to person. For some, a bikini is not revealing at all, but others consider a woman in jeans and a tank top to be "naked." Unfortunately, you can sometimes easily spot the immigrant Muslim males in a country such as Germany, or even Ukraine. They think it's Ok to be cruel to women who are dressed appropriately according to their own personal standards. I was once hassled by a group of young Turks in Cologne like that. I ignored them, like I always ignore people who cannot behave themselves, but I had to marvel at the fact that my jeans and tank-top would create such a reaction, when hardly any native German boy cared.

Hijab is about many things, one being to avoid the male gaze and saving both parties from sins. In fact hijab is not a "choice" it is fard, which means Islam makes it a must that a woman wears it. However no one can force her to wear it of course.
There is a huge scholarly Quranic base that says that hijab is not fard; but that covering bosoms and lengthening garments is fard. It is not taken from the Sunnah, of course, but then again, I know a lot of Quran-only Muslims.


Well what do models do? They sell their bodies isnt it? Not literally like a you know what. But they do. They are selling their bodies to a magazine!
So for me personally, I would not disrespect someone who is a model, I would just have less respect for her. My opinion of a person is made up based on many factors, not just one. And it is important to know that disrespecting is different than not respecting someone (or respecting them less).
Sorry I hope I did not misunderstand your comment here.
Peace.
Models do more than sell bodies. They sell products. And if they pose for art photography, like I do, they are part of a work of art. Like the woman who posed nude for the Venus de Milo.

Peace. :)
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Cheb
03-01-2006, 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by Lush
She will be looked and commented on, but usually not in a cruel way. She will not be called a "-----." She will not be singled out as an appropriate target for rape or sexual harrassment. Remember, "revealing" itself is a concept that changes liberally from person to person. For some, a bikini is not revealing at all, but others consider a woman in jeans and a tank top to be "naked." Unfortunately, you can sometimes easily spot the immigrant Muslim males in a country such as Germany, or even Ukraine. They think it's Ok to be cruel to women who are dressed appropriately according to their own personal standards. I was once hassled by a group of young Turks in Cologne like that. I ignored them, like I always ignore people who cannot behave themselves, but I had to marvel at the fact that my jeans and tank-top would create such a reaction, when hardly any native German boy cared.
True different people have different perspectives, and all of us should try to respect a countries views beliefs and laws as long as it does not cross any lines. It is not like those guys were doing the right thing when they hassled you. I do not believe that is the right thing to do at all.


Originally Posted by Lush
There is a huge scholarly Quranic base that says that hijab is not fard; but that covering bosoms and lengthening garments is fard. It is not taken from the Sunnah, of course, but then again, I know a lot of Quran-only Muslims.
It is well known that hijab is fard. Only a few in denial say that it isnt.
Please explain Quran-only Muslims.


Originally Posted by Lush
Models do more than sell bodies. They sell products. And if they pose for art photography, like I do, they are part of a work of art. Like the woman who posed nude for the Venus de Milo.

Peace. :)
Yup they sell their bodies and sell products USING there bodies. A woman's body is not a tool. Once a woman starts treating her body as a tool, I would loose respect I would have had for her (assuming I had respect for her to start with). This does not only apply for Muslims by the way.
I also definitely do not agree with the art part because it is actually the same concept. A woman using her body to attract a person. I do not understand that type of art at all so I will leave it at that.
Peace.
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Lush
03-02-2006, 01:27 AM
No, it is not well-known that hijab is fard.

This link talks about it in some detail, or so it seems:
http://www.maryams.net/articles_veil02.shtml

The Internet is bursting with articles on obligatory hijab, but the Quran never said that the hijab was obligatory, as far as I know. And there is a decent amount of Muslims out there who are only interested in what the Quran says. My bf's parents are such Muslims. Anyway, I hope it will be Ok if we do not discuss this further at this time, we might get clobbered for straying off topic. :)

I do not understand that type of art at all so I will leave it at that.
So you've never been able to appreciate Venus de Milo? Botticelli's "Birth of Venus"? Michelangelo's David? And so on?

Oh well. To you your way and to me mine. :)
Reply

Cheb
03-02-2006, 10:05 AM
Originally Posted by Lush
No, it is not well-known that hijab is fard.

This link talks about it in some detail, or so it seems:
http://www.maryams.net/articles_veil02.shtml

The Internet is bursting with articles on obligatory hijab, but the Quran never said that the hijab was obligatory, as far as I know. And there is a decent amount of Muslims out there who are only interested in what the Quran says. My bf's parents are such Muslims. Anyway, I hope it will be Ok if we do not discuss this further at this time, we might get clobbered for straying off topic. :)
Actually it is mentioned both in the Quran and the Hadith. We should follow both by the way. There are other threads about this. Here is one:
http://www.islamicboard.com/cyber-co...ear-hijab.html

Originally Posted by Lush
So you've never been able to appreciate Venus de Milo? Botticelli's "Birth of Venus"? Michelangelo's David? And so on?

Oh well. To you your way and to me mine. :)
No, but I have been able to appreciate Islam ;) You should try it too...:X
I guess we both have different priorities. :)
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Ghazi
03-02-2006, 11:33 AM
Salaam

Sisters who wear hijab have more respect in my eyes, they understand that allah has commanded them to cover up, they save us men from fitnah they have beauty but restrict it from public view, for this I respect them theres enough fitnah on the streets.
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Jeness18
03-02-2006, 12:23 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

Sisters who wear hijab have more respect in my eyes, they understand that allah has commanded them to cover up, they save us men from fitnah they have beauty but restrict it from public view, for this I respect them theres enough fitnah on the streets.
Well put!
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family
03-02-2006, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Halima
:sl:


Who gets more respect?




As a muslim woman, I must certainly tell you that I get alot of respect for who I am. I dress modestly, I act modestly and I speak modestly. I dont judge American women therefore I won't crtiticize them by their dressing or by their promiscous behaviors. Do american women get more repspect? From my eyes just from the streets alone american women don't get repsect. they have to adjust themselves to this society before getting respect. they have to get respect the hard way. We get it the easy way. We as muslim woman hold our dignity and identities with high pride.


:w:
I totally agree with you sister Halima
Wasalaam
Reply

Guli7
03-02-2006, 09:44 PM
back then or in some countries today both the men and women cover up. (from head to toe) During the summer, my aunt was covered from head to toe and her husband was wearing shorts and a sleeveless shirt. I think that was his priority but I don't see the point of that. I believe in both the men and women dressing modestly, speaking modestly etc. I think it is also a control of a person's willpower.

Sometimes some of you make it seem at times that its very hard for men to control their behaviors and they don't have that much will power. It is necessary for women to wear hijabs so that it will keep them from sinning. There are covered women in muslim countries who get harassed and raped as well. So theres that.

So point blank I believe in both men and women dressing modestly, behaving modestly and having a strong sense of control.

In addition, wearing a hijab is not enough in itself, everything else has to change with it. I couldn't count how many times I've seen women wearing hijabs but wearing tons of make up, skin tight clothes and even being flirtatious. So there was no point in that. They have to understand that there is a whole aspect that goes with it.
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Umm Yoosuf
03-02-2006, 10:56 PM
back then or in some countries today both the men and women cover up. (from head to toe) During the summer, my aunt was covered from head to toe and her husband was wearing shorts and a sleeveless shirt. I think that was his priority but I don't see the point of that. I believe in both the men and women dressing modestly, speaking modestly etc. I think it is also a control of a person's willpower.
I don’t understand your point here:?


Sometimes some of you make it seem at times that its very hard for men to control their behaviors and they don't have that much will power. It is necessary for women to wear hijabs so that it will keep them from sinning. There are covered women in muslim countries who get harassed and raped as well. So theres that.
People usually only discuss ‘hijaab’ in the context of women. However, in the Glorious Qur’an, Allah (swt) first mentions ‘hijaab’ for men before ‘hijaab’ for the women. The Qur’an mentions in Surah Noor:

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do."


Example of twin sisters

Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijaab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijaab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that hijaab prevents women from being molested.

Dr. Zakir Naik



So point blank I believe in both men and women dressing modestly, behaving modestly and having a strong sense of control.
Well who doesn’t? Both men and women are commanded to dress modestly. In fact first Allah ordered the men to lower their gaze.


In addition, wearing a hijab is not enough in itself, everything else has to change with it. I couldn't count how many times I've seen women wearing hijabs but wearing tons of make up, skin tight clothes and even being flirtatious. So there was no point in that. They have to understand that there is a whole aspect that goes with it.
Why do you keep raising this issue? I don’ think in this thread we are talking about sister’s who are half naked! The issue is sister’s that truly follow the command to Allah and His Messenger (pbuh). We all have our black sheep in the community. And yes you’re correct in saying that the Hijab (covering) is not just enough. Of course not!

Complete ‘hijaab’, besides the six criteria of clothing, also includes the moral conduct, behaviour, attitude and intention of the individual. A person only fulfilling the criteria of ‘hijaab’ of the clothes is observing ‘hijaab’ in a limited sense. ‘Hijaab’ of the clothes should be accompanied by ‘hijaab’ of the eyes, ‘hijaab’ of the heart, ‘hijaab’ of thought and ‘hijaab’ of intention. It also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc.

Dr. Zakir Naik
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Guli7
03-03-2006, 01:01 AM
I was just saying that people were talking mostly about the head covering I think. I was trying to say that it has more to do with:

"Complete ‘hijaab’, besides the six criteria of clothing, also includes the moral conduct, behaviour, attitude and intention of the individual. A person only fulfilling the criteria of ‘hijaab’ of the clothes is observing ‘hijaab’ in a limited sense. ‘Hijaab’ of the clothes should be accompanied by ‘hijaab’ of the eyes, ‘hijaab’ of the heart, ‘hijaab’ of thought and ‘hijaab’ of intention. It also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc"

^that. Thanks for those points. It is not so simple as just covering your head and some people go about the wrong way was all I was just bringing up. It has more to do with the above text for both men and women.
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family
03-03-2006, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Guli7
I was just saying that people were talking mostly about the head covering I think. I was trying to say that it has more to do with:

"Complete ‘hijaab’, besides the six criteria of clothing, also includes the moral conduct, behaviour, attitude and intention of the individual. A person only fulfilling the criteria of ‘hijaab’ of the clothes is observing ‘hijaab’ in a limited sense. ‘Hijaab’ of the clothes should be accompanied by ‘hijaab’ of the eyes, ‘hijaab’ of the heart, ‘hijaab’ of thought and ‘hijaab’ of intention. It also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc"

^that. Thanks for those points. It is not so simple as just covering your head and some people go about the wrong way was all I was just bringing up. It has more to do with the above text for both men and women.
Very Good Point
Masha Allah
Wasalaam
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