Why does the Quran deny Jesus as a son of God ?

[davejames2027]

Hello,

I am studying Quran. And I sometimes fall upon surahs like :

018.004
YUSUFALI: Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, "AlLah hath begotten a son":

This does not agree with the Truth. Even the jinns knew that Jesus (Yahoshua) was a son of God (Mr 3:11)

What does Mohamed mean when it is written that Allah has not begotten a son ?

Thank you,

a puzzled student

[Khaldun]

:sl:

Allah has certainly not begotten a son, and the Jinns testify to this;

Say: It has been revealed to me that a party of the jinn listened, and they said: Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran,

Guiding to the right way, so we believe in it, and we will not set up any one with our Lord:

And that He-- exalted be the majesty of our Lord-- has not taken a consort, nor a son:

And that the foolish amongst us used to forge extravagant things against Allah:

And that we thought that men and jinn did not utter a lie against Allah: [Surah Jinn Ayah 1-5]

If Allah HAD taken a son then it would imply that He had a partner and if you say no to this point then by the other definition we are all the "children" of God

And they say: The Beneficent God has taken (to Himself) a son.

Certainly you have made an abominable assertion

The heavens may almost be rent thereat, and the earth cleave asunder, and the mountains fall down in pieces,

That they ascribe a son to the Beneficent God.

And it is not worthy of the Beneficent God that He should take (to Himself) a son.

There is no one in the heavens and the earth but will come to the Beneficent God as a servant. [Surah Maryam Ayah 88-93]

[davejames2027]

:sl:
If Allah HAD taken a son then it would imply that He had a partner and if you say no to this point then by the other definition we are all the "children" of God

And they say: The Beneficent God has taken (to Himself) a son.

Certainly you have made an abominable assertion

The heavens may almost be rent thereat, and the earth cleave asunder, and the mountains fall down in pieces,

That they ascribe a son to the Beneficent God.

And it is not worthy of the Beneficent God that He should take (to Himself) a son.

There is no one in the heavens and the earth but will come to the Beneficent God as a servant. [Surah Maryam Ayah 88-93]

Has not Allah created the angels ?
Has not Allah also created mankind from clay ?

Does Allah need a partner to create from nothing ?
Is Allah a man that He would require a woman to produce His family , of men or angels?

Allah wills something and behold it is created. He does not need a partner to create. Allah is then our Father.

These surahs below are surahs that prove that Mohamed believed every word of the Gospel and the Torah and the Bible. You cannot deny that Jesus is a son of God and call yourself a believer or even a follower of Mohamed because Mohamed himself, I believe, was a true Christian. Jesus is not Allah as Jesus has plainly told us. To say Jesus was a son of God does not put away or even decrease worship to the one true God, which is Allah or Eloah.

Su 3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee step by step, in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion of judgment between right and wrong.

Su 3:48 "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

Su 3:65 Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?

Su 5:49 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

[Khaldun]

:sl:

Does Allah need a partner to create from nothing ?
Is Allah a man that He would require a woman to produce His family , of men or angels?

Certainly not, thats why Allah says

Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.

by this definition Adam is the "son" of God aswell?

You cannot deny that Jesus is a son of God and call yourself a believer or even a follower of Mohamed because Mohamed himself, I believe, was a true Christian.

I dont think you read the verses I just qouted in my previous post, please read them again.

Allah is then our Father.

So why then single out Jesus as His "son"?

To say Jesus was a son of God does not put away or even decrease worship to the one true God, which is Allah or Eloah.

If Allah himself has said He hasnt begotten a son, will you then ascribe a son to him?

In short us muslims believe that indeed Jesus was a Mighty Messenger, not a son of God but His true Messenger and to elavate him to such a degree would be wrong. And the Ayahs you just qouted are testimony of this, however none of these (or anywhere in the Quran) will you ever find jesus mentioned as the Son of God as a fact.

Say: He, Allah, is One.

Allah is He on Whom all depend.

He begets not, nor is He begotten.

And none is like Him. [Surah Ikhlas]

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[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello davejames,

018.004
YUSUFALI: Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, "AlLah hath begotten a son":

This does not agree with the Truth.

To say that the Qur'an is wrong simply because the Bible says otherwise, is a logical fallacy

Regards

[davejames2027]

Hello sir,

You said:

Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.

by this definition Adam is the "son" of God aswell?.

Mt 9:6 "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins" ——then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house." (NKJV)

Jesus called himself the son of man , meaning , the son of Adam. Indeed , Jesus was 100% human. When he came, he was not an angel nor indeed was he Allah but he was a man. He was however a sinless man.

You said :So why then single out Jesus as His "son"?

I didn`t say it. Jesus himself said it :

Lu 22:70 Then they all said, "Are You then the Son of God?" So He said to them, "You rightly say that I am." (NKJV)

Do you believe what Jesus said ?

You said :If Allah himself has said He hasnt begotten a son, will you then ascribe a son to him?

There seems to be a conflict. All the words that Jesus spoke, it was not his words ,but it was His Father`s words. What this means is that all the words that Jesus spoke when he was on the earth as a man was Allah`s word. Do you trust Allah ? And Because you agree with me that Jesus was a mighty prophet, then I trust you believe his words.

Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 "And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."
Joh 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. (NKJV)

Jesus was not the Father nor Allah.

No man has ever heard Allah`s voice.

John 5:36 "But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish——the very works that I do——bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. (NKJV)

You said:
In short us muslims believe that indeed Jesus was a Mighty Messenger, not a son of God but His true Messenger and to elavate him to such a degree would be wrong. And the Ayahs you just qouted are testimony of this, however none of these (or anywhere in the Quran) will you ever find jesus mentioned as the Son of God as a fact.

You say that Jesus was not a son of God when Jesus himself says so and I believe Mohamed held the view that Jesus is a son of God (even if those surahs appear to say otherwise)

No man should worship Jesus or any angel, nor any idol but AlLah only.

The Quran should be read and studied in conjunction with the Torah (Taurat), the Prophets , and the Gospel.

"Are all of Allah`s commandments written in the Quran ?"
Or again "Did the angel Gabriel tell Mohamed all prophecies and all truths?"

What Gabriel spoke to Mohamed in the 600`s was all truth (whether our Quran today faithfully captures Gabriel`s words in its entirety is another matter). But he didn`t tell him everything because it was already written in the Bible. We cannot take the Quran and use it in isolation (i.e in exclusivity). The reason you cannot is simply because the Quran is commentary on the Bible. The fact that the Roman Catholic church and mainstream Christianity has joined Allah with with His Son as co-eternal and co-equal does not negate the Bible.

The Taurat, Prophets and the Gospel are truth. Mohamed held this view as well. You cannot call yourself a believer or a follower of Mohamed if you do not acknowledge Christ as the son of God. Allah is one. The term "son of God" doesn`t mean that you are AlLah. He is a son of the Father. Gabriel is equally a son of God.

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers?

Now my problem is why did Mohamed say that Allah does not beget when Allah has so clearly made it known to us that He did beget many sons and daughters.

The only assumptions I can make at this point is that either (1) These surahs in the Quran have been added afterwards OR (2) It is because we do not understand what Mohamed meant when he stated this.

[Cheb]

:sl:
Khaldun you are more knowledgeable than me so I hope you will continue to answer him.
I just have one note however. Davejames you need to understand that what you believe Jesus said and did and what we believe he said and did are different things. Not in all aspects however.
Also read Ansar Al- Adl's comment.
Peace.

[mohakem]

Hello davejames2027

There is a very important fact which you may not be aware of just yet. That is, muslims believe that the Bible Has been corrupted. So, copying out passages from your Bible, is not a good enough proof, im sorry to say.

That then negates the first half of your post.

Concerning the rest of your post, i can only say that Isa (Jesus) was a prophet, and not the son of god. May i ask why the Quran should be studied in conjuction with the Bible? After all God states in the Quran that it is a complete guidance for humankind. Assuming your logic is correct, since its the most recent revelation, and using your logic of studying them in conjunction, don't you think it would be wise to follow gods word, and study and use the quran as your sole guidance.

The only assumptions I can make at this point is that either (1) These surahs in the Quran have been added afterwards OR (2) It is because we do not understand what Mohamed meant when he stated this.

I respect your stong belief in the Bible, but just as you think Surahs in the Quran have been added afterwards, we believe passages in the Bible have been changed.

Regards.

[davejames2027]

:sl:
Khaldun you are more knowledgeable than me so I hope you will continue to answer him.
I just have one note however. Davejames you need to understand that what you believe Jesus said and did and what we believe he said and did are different things. Not in all aspects however.
Also read Ansar Al- Adl's comment.
Peace.

Greetings,

What Jesus said is written in the Gospel. Mohamed acknowledged the Gospel as many surahs prove.

Gabriel was the angel that spoke to Mohamed.
Gabriel was also sent to Mariam, the mother of Jesus.

In bold are specifically the words of Gabriel.

Luke 1:26 ¶ Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!"
29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
30 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.
32 "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
33 "And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"
35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Note archangel Gabriel`s words. This is the same Gabriel that spoke to Mohamed. Mohamed told us to read the Gospel because it is truth and guidance.

Do you believe in Mohamed`s words ?
Do you believe in Jesus` words ?
Do you beleive in Gabriel`s words ?
and finally, will we believe and trust in Allmighty Allah`s words ?

Su 3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee step by step, in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion of judgment between right and wrong.
Su 3:48 "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

David

[akulion]

Salam Alaikum

If you continue in Luke 1 from 35 onwards you find:

36 - And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37 - For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Does this mean Elisabeth was also giving birth to a "son of God" ?


as for your quotation from the Quran in your last post.

Please do not post things out of reference and try and make a connection between them!

Chapter 3
Verses 47 and 48
47 She said: "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth; when He hath decreed a plan He but saith to it `Be' and it is!
48 "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom the Law and the Gospel.

Here the Quran is referring to MARY and Jesus being tought the Law and the Gospel.


Second Verse from Chapter 3 which you were wrongfully linking to verse 48:

Chapter Verse 2 and 3
2 Allah! there is no god but He the Living the Self-Subsisting Eternal.
3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step) in truth the Book confirming what went before it; and He sent down Law (Of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this as a guide to mankind and He sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

Form Verse 2 it should be as clear as day light to anyone that there is no God but Allah according to the Quran

And verse 3 speaks about the Quran that it contains confirmation of the TRUE books before it (book of moses & jesus) and NOT the ones which the Christians or Jews claim is the real one.

Why dont we accept the bible?

Because the Bible was written by Luke, Mark, Mathew, Paul and many other people. NOT by God

Whatever book God sent to the people was corrupted by these people and they added to the books for their own purposes.

Finally you can not quote the bible and expect us to take it as the truth because quite frankly we the Muslims do not believe it is the same book that was revealed to Jesus but infact it is the handwritten version by the above named authors.

[davejames2027]

Hello davejames2027

There is a very important fact which you may not be aware of just yet. That is, muslims believe that the Bible Has been corrupted. So, copying out passages from your Bible, is not a good enough proof, im sorry to say.

That then negates the first half of your post.

Concerning the rest of your post, i can only say that Isa (Jesus) was a prophet, and not the son of god. May i ask why the Quran should be studied in conjuction with the Bible? After all God states in the Quran that it is a complete guidance for humankind. Assuming your logic is correct, since its the most recent revelation, and using your logic of studying them in conjunction, don't you think it would be wise to follow gods word, and study and use the quran as your sole guidance.



I respect your stong belief in the Bible, but just as you think Surahs in the Quran have been added afterwards, we believe passages in the Bible have been changed.

Regards.

Hello sir,

Logically, if the Bible could be corrupted, do you not think that the Quran could also be corrupted ?

The adversary (Shaitan) seeks to corrupt what is true (He doesnt bother to corrupt what is already false). The Quran, which was Gabriel`s words commanded by Allah in the 600`s is truth.

It is undeniable fact that some verses in the Bible have been corrupt. Shaitan seeks to corrupt what is true. He is the god of this world and has been given rulership of this planet. The verses that have been corrupted have all been exposed and documented. God has granted humanity immense mercy and grace by showing them to us.

We simply need to do some research and pray God that He bestows upon us mercy and He will indeed show us the corrupted verses. The important ones can be found on the internet.

What man among you will not seek and search the precious gem that fell into the barrel of cow dung, and be glad when he finds it ?

[mohakem]

Greetings,

Su 3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee step by step, in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion of judgment between right and wrong.
Su 3:48 "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

I dont understand why you have quoted this? Infact, if you have read the previous replies, you will see that us muslims believe that God sent down the original, un-tampered Holy Books.

The post before mine has dealt with 3:48.

Regards.

[davejames2027]

Does this mean Elisabeth was also giving birth to a "son of God" ?

Form Verse 2 it should be as clear as day light to anyone that there is no God but Allah according to the Quran

And verse 3 speaks about the Quran that it contains confirmation of the TRUE books before it (book of moses & jesus) and NOT the ones which the Christians or Jews claim is the real one.


Finally you can not quote the bible and expect us to take it as the truth because quite frankly we the Muslims do not believe it is the same book that was revealed to Jesus but infact it is the handwritten version by the above named authors.

I condensed your words here above.

You said : "Does this mean Elisabeth was also giving birth to a "son of God" ?"

No.

You said : "Form Verse 2 it should be as clear as day light to anyone that there is no God but Allah according to the Quran"

Do you know of a verse in the Bible that says that God is not one ?

I have a question for you. What is the penalty for breaking God`s Law ?

[mohakem]

Hello sir,

Logically, if the Bible could be corrupted, do you not think that the Quran could also be corrupted ?

The adversary (Shaitan) seeks to corrupt what is true (He doesnt bother to corrupt what is already false). The Quran, which was Gabriel`s words commanded by Allah in the 600`s is truth.

It is undeniable fact that some verses in the Bible have been corrupt. Shaitan seeks to corrupt what is true. He is the god of this world and has been given rulership of this planet. The verses that have been corrupted have all been exposed and documented. God has granted humanity immense mercy and grace by showing them to us.

We simply need to do some research and pray God that He bestows upon us mercy and He will indeed show us the corrupted verses. The important ones can be found on the internet.

What man among you will not seek and search the precious gem that fell into the barrel of cow dung, and be glad when he finds it ?

Hello davejames,

The manner in which the Quran has been revealed and kept means that it is not possible to have been corrupted. This is a completely different subject itself.

Not only that but God has told us that the Quran will never be corrupted or changed.

Since you believe that the Bible should be studied in conjunction with the Quran, who are you (or me, or any human for that matter) to disbelieve God?

Can you explain to me how these corrupt verses in the Bible were highlighted as corrupt? Thank you.

Regards.

[akulion]

The penalty for breaking God's law is prescribed according to crime committed.

the Law was sent to humanity not to "cleanse" them of sin - but it was sent to mankind so that they know how to live in accordance to Gods will - simple as that.

I do not mean to put you down in any ways but I would like to use you as an example of the fact that even you do not follow the bible yourself.

you are greeting everyone with "Hello Sir"

But Bible says:

Luke 24:36
[ Jesus Appears to the Disciples ] While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."

John 20:19
[ Jesus Appears to His Disciples ] On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"

John 20:21
Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."

John 20:26
A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"

-------------------------------
Of course Jesus did not speak English, he said, "Peace be with you!" in his native Aramaic, which was "Shalom aleichem" itself, and we know Aramaic was only a dialect of Hebrew.

Do you ever wonder why Christians do not use the greeting of Jesus (on him peace)? Muslims greet each other with the greetings of Peace just like all the Prophets of God (Peace and Blessings be upon them all). Makes you wonder why the Christians do not relate their greetings to that of their beloved Savior

You have to see the truth that the Bible has been not only corrupted but also has been abandoned with the excuse that "Jesus died for our sins"

That is why Muslims follow the Quran and try their best to do what it says.
Allah sees the intention of the people and judges them.
It is our efforts we are judged on not our "sins" alone.
For sin is nothing for God - he can wipe out the sins of the entire human race with his Mercy alone.

The Books given to Moses and Jesus were only "Parts" and not the whole.

Even Jesus him self said When a diciple asked why not preach to everyone ?
He Said: "I have not but come on to the lost sheep of Isreal"

Further more Jesus is not the only Begotten son of God according to the Bible itself:

BEGOTTEN???

Psalms 2:7….(God said to David)….I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me(David), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Matthew 5:48….That you may be the children of your Father..and be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So please I ask you to study more in depth into the Bible and see how people have changed everything around to suit the purposes.

In one part arguments are "literal" in other they become "metaphoric"
Who decides these criterion? The Church?

Furthermore you find in some places in the Bible the word "lord" written in Capitals like so: LORD
In other places you find it in smalls like this "lord"

Bible was in hebrew or Aramiac - whichever language u believe out of the 2 - but the fact is either of these languages DO NOT contain Capitals letters! So who decided what to put in caps and what to put in smalls ?

These are all things to think about

I pray that you see the light insha'Allah
ameen

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello davejames,

I previously wrote:

To say that the Qur'an is wrong simply because the Bible says otherwise, is a logical fallacy

It seems like the response you are giving me to my post (although you didn't respond directly) is that the Qur'an endorses the Bible, therefore we must believe what is in the Bible. Such a notion is actually far from correct. The Qur'an confirms that the original revelations given to Prophet Moses and Jesus was from God, but not the corrupted form that exists today.

More info here:
http://voiceforislam.com/FarmersMarket.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/188903-post5.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...a-43-48-a.html

Regards

[Turin Turambar]

With all humility, I will tell you what I think really happened 1,400 years ago in those deserts of Arabia. This will explain why is it that the Quran denies that Jesus is the Son of God.

Muhammed was a good man who lived among pagan barbarians, primitive and violent. He saw that something with them was deeply wrong. They were killing each other all the time, partly because they all worshipped different tribal gods.

But there were a few living among them (mostly foreigners) that were very different, they were much more peaceful and kinder to each other. And they shared one characteristic: they were all carrying a little book with them. Because of this they were known among the Arabs as the "People of the Book".

Muhammad developed the idea of giving something like that to his own people, so that they could also become better. But there were two problems: first, some of the commandments of the little book were too difficult to apply in his environment. The sexual restrictions for example. Second, the "People of the Book" were always taking about how the founder of their religion was the Son of God. That was too much for the simple and practical Arabs of the times and the simple and practical Muhammad. He knew that he needed to give his people a new religion, keeping some things of the old one but modifying it to make it suitable to his environment. He was reasonable enough to understand that nobody would take him seriously if he claimed to be a Son of God himself. He was clearly a mere human, all too human in fact.

Thus, he needed to "downgrade", so to speak, the towering figure of Jesus. He decided to give him the role of a prophet. That was still an exalted role but one that he, Muhammad, could try to play without people laughing at him.

So everything began. He started to preach new moral rules to the primitive and savage Arabs of his time. He made sure to link his new commandments to those preached by the "People of the Book" in order to take advantage of the inroads the old religion had already made. In his mind it wouldn't be so difficult to turn the followers of one prophet into the followers of a new prophet. The important thing was to do away with the "Son of God" thing, because that would kill his new religion. He new very well that nobody would ever take him for a Son of God. Jesus had to be a prophet, no more and no less. Prophets, prophets everywhere, thousands of them actualy in the history of mankind. And now another one was preaching and gathering more and more followers.

The rest is history.

[davejames2027]

Hello davejames,

The manner in which the Quran has been revealed and kept means that it is not possible to have been corrupted. This is a completely different subject itself.

Not only that but God has told us that the Quran will never be corrupted or changed.

Since you believe that the Bible should be studied in conjunction with the Quran, who are you (or me, or any human for that matter) to disbelieve God?

Can you explain to me how these corrupt verses in the Bible were highlighted as corrupt? Thank you.

Regards.

No one is to disbelieve God ever. Whatever is subject to this physical world is corruptable and Allah knows this. The words that Allah pronounces can never corrupt or be changed. The moment we write God`s words on paper or parchment, it is automatically subject to destruction. (all matter returns to dust) Man is evil.

Just as you cannot read the Talmud in isolation, you cannot read the Quran in its isolation and think you are pleasing and obeying God.

Allah is holy and perfect and He alone is good. He can be seen or heard by no man. Thus Jesus cannot be Allah because we have many witnesses of men hearing him.

Allah is so pure, holy, and perfect that no man that transgresses His Holy Law and continues in its transgression can approach Him in prayer, ever. A sinner is someone who has transgressed God`s Law, even if only in one point. This Law in its entirety is found in the Torah which is in the Hebrew Bible.

The Archangel Gabriel did not recite to Mohamed the Law of God because he (Gabriel) wasn`t sent for that purpose. I believe Gabriel (I may be wrong) was sent to Mohamed because Christianity had begun to join Christ Jesus and Allah as co-eternal and co-equal. The Quran correctly teaches that the "trinity" is false because this was invented in the 300`s.

Do you not be so arrogant to think that in all of mankind`s 6000 years God would reveal the truth to Mohamed only and everybody elses books are corrupted beyond repair. Does not the Quran teach you that God has no pleasure in proud men ?

[mohakem]

No one is to disbelieve God ever. Whatever is subject to this physical world is corruptable and Allah knows this. The words that Allah pronounces can never corrupt or be changed. The moment we write God`s words on paper or parchment, it is automatically subject to destruction. (all matter returns to dust) Man is evil.

Just as you cannot read the Talmud in isolation, you cannot read the Quran in its isolation and think you are pleasing and obeying God.

Allah is holy and perfect and He alone is good. He can be seen or heard by no man. Thus Jesus cannot be Allah because we have many witnesses of men hearing him.

Allah is so pure, holy, and perfect that no man that transgresses His Holy Law and continues in its transgression can approach Him in prayer, ever. A sinner is someone who has transgressed God`s Law, even if only in one point. This Law in its entirety is found in the Torah which is in the Hebrew Bible.

The Archangel Gabriel did not recite to Mohamed the Law of God because he (Gabriel) wasn`t sent for that purpose. I believe Gabriel (I may be wrong) was sent to Mohamed because Christianity had begun to join Christ Jesus and Allah as co-eternal and co-equal. The Quran correctly teaches that the "trinity" is false because this was invented in the 300`s.

Do you not be so arrogant to think that in all of mankind`s 6000 years God would reveal the truth to Mohamed only and everybody elses books are corrupted beyond repair. Does not the Quran teach you that God has no pleasure in proud men ?

Hello Davejames,

With all due respect, there are a few things which i think you have misunderstood.

First of all, we muslims follow the Quran. God said in the Quran that it (the Quran) is a complete guidance for all humankind. Why should i need to follow another book, such as the Bible, which you yourself said had been corrupted in some parts. Would it not be more logical to follow the most recent, uncorrupted revelation?

Secondly, the message God has been giving to mankind has never changed. I'm not saying God only gave 'the truth' to Muhammad. No. God has revealed the same 'truth' in each and every book, however these books have been corrupted at some point in time. Not so with the Quran.

I think you'll find the following very useful in understanding how the Quran has been kept free from corruption http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE

You'll find many similarities between the Bible and the Quran such as having good morals and refraining from adultery.

Regards

[azim]

The moment we write God`s words on paper or parchment, it is automatically subject to destruction.

I agree, which is why the Quran is preserved in full the heart of over 9 million Muslims.

Just as you cannot read the Talmud in isolation, you cannot read the Quran in its isolation and think you are pleasing and obeying God.

This is your opinion. The Quran is complete.

The Archangel Gabriel did not recite to Mohamed the Law of God because he (Gabriel) wasn`t sent for that purpose. I believe Gabriel (I may be wrong) was sent to Mohamed because Christianity had begun to join Christ Jesus and Allah as co-eternal and co-equal. The Quran correctly teaches that the "trinity" is false because this was invented in the 300`s.

An opinion with no real basis.

Do you not be so arrogant to think that in all of mankind`s 6000 years God would reveal the truth to Mohamed only and everybody elses books are corrupted beyond repair. Does not the Quran teach you that God has no pleasure in proud men ?

[/QUOTE]

Allah revealed truth to all his Prophets. Yet, there was no need to preserve a message meant for certain people at a certain time. The Quran however is for all people through all time - thus why Allah preserved it. It has nothing to do with pride - rather to do with truth.

[davejames2027]

The penalty for breaking God's law is prescribed according to crime committed.

the Law was sent to humanity not to "cleanse" them of sin - but it was sent to mankind so that they know how to live in accordance to Gods will - simple as that.

I do not mean to put you down in any ways but I would like to use you as an example of the fact that even you do not follow the bible yourself.

you are greeting everyone with "Hello Sir"

But Bible says:

Luke 24:36
[ Jesus Appears to the Disciples ] While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."

John 20:19
[ Jesus Appears to His Disciples ] On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"

John 20:21
Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."

John 20:26
A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"

-------------------------------
Of course Jesus did not speak English, he said, "Peace be with you!" in his native Aramaic, which was "Shalom aleichem" itself, and we know Aramaic was only a dialect of Hebrew.

Do you ever wonder why Christians do not use the greeting of Jesus (on him peace)? Muslims greet each other with the greetings of Peace just like all the Prophets of God (Peace and Blessings be upon them all). Makes you wonder why the Christians do not relate their greetings to that of their beloved Savior

You have to see the truth that the Bible has been not only corrupted but also has been abandoned with the excuse that "Jesus died for our sins"

That is why Muslims follow the Quran and try their best to do what it says.
Allah sees the intention of the people and judges them.
It is our efforts we are judged on not our "sins" alone.
For sin is nothing for God - he can wipe out the sins of the entire human race with his Mercy alone.


Even Jesus him self said When a diciple asked why not preach to everyone ?
He Said: "I have not but come on to the lost sheep of Isreal"

Further more Jesus is not the only Begotten son of God according to the Bible itself:

BEGOTTEN???

Psalms 2:7….(God said to David)….I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me(David), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Furthermore you find in some places in the Bible the word "lord" written in Capitals like so: LORD
In other places you find it in smalls like this "lord"

Bible was in hebrew or Aramiac - whichever language u believe out of the 2 - but the fact is either of these languages DO NOT contain Capitals letters! So who decided what to put in caps and what to put in smalls ?

Greetings,

Here is the original biblical verse that you posted. I reposted it because words were added to it to suit the purposes.

Ps 2:7 ¶ "I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

God`s word has many levels. This was a psalm of David. He was also a prophet and this verse is saying that God does beget. When God creates people or angels, this is what we term "beget". Adam was a son of God and Christ was a son of God because lineage can be traced (see Luke). Adam was a son of God because He was created by God.

Nowhere in Quran is it explicitly written that the Bible is 100% corrupt. Only atheist and muslims I heard say this.

The Quran mentions by name most of the Prophets of old which are written in the Bible, but you listen to men who say the Bible is corrupted and therefore reject it as a whole.

The mere fact that "Lord" is written in caps or not should not be the cause of someones falling away from the faith. Would you reject the Quran if sometimes "Mohamed" was written as "Muhhamed" or again as "Mohammad" ? My personal Quran (Kanzul Iman) has many spelling mistakes which makes a mockery of the english language. Do I use this as an excuse to not believe the words written therein ?

We are not monkeys. We are men, will we therefore reject the Bible because someone said so ? Does Gabriel in the Quran say to reject the Bible ? Does Mohamed tell us to reject the Bible ?

The Bible says that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and Mohamed is subtely telling us also in the Quran to read the books of the Holy Scriptures. Prophet Mohamed mentions Abraham, Isaac,Jacob, Jesus,Jonas,David,Solomon . Do you think he invented these names ?

Why should we believe our teachers who say the Bible is corrupt and not to be heeded ?

Do we follow man or do we seek to follow Allah ?

You said :You have to see the truth that the Bible has been not only corrupted but also has been abandoned with the excuse that "Jesus died for our sins"

Do you abandon God`s Prophet and Messiah because mainstream Christianity uses the excuse "Jesus died for our sins" ?

Jesus was greater than Mohamed. Not to obey the Bible because of the excuse "the Bible is corrupt" does not come from angels or Allah but from men.

[minaz]

Not to obey the Bible because of the excuse "the Bible is corrupt" does not come from angels or Allah but from men.

Or plain common sense

[Khaldun]

:sl:

Jesus called himself the son of man , meaning , the son of Adam. Indeed , Jesus was 100% human. When he came, he was not an angel nor indeed was he Allah but he was a man. He was however a sinless man. You said :So why then single out Jesus as His "son"? I didn`t say it. Jesus himself said it :
Lu 22:70 Then they all said, "Are You then the Son of God?" So He said to them, "You rightly say that I am." (NKJV)

Please clarify, is Jesus son of God or son of Man I sense your perhaps confused?

There seems to be a conflict. All the words that Jesus spoke, it was not his words ,but it was His Father`s words. What this means is that all the words that Jesus spoke when he was on the earth as a man was Allah`s word. Do you trust Allah ? And Because you agree with me that Jesus was a mighty prophet, then I trust you believe his words.

I trust Allah :brother: although I trust the Quran more then I trust the Bible.

And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things. [Surah Maidah Ayah 116-117]

You say that Jesus was not a son of God when Jesus himself says so and I believe Mohamed held the view that Jesus is a son of God (even if those surahs appear to say otherwise)

Please bring evidence before making any claims about what the Prophet (Peace and blessings upon him) believed. And tell me, if the Prophet really believed, as you say, that Jesus was the son of God then why would the Quran be full with conflicting verses and statments?

The Taurat, Prophets and the Gospel are truth. Mohamed held this view as well. You cannot call yourself a believer or a follower of Mohamed if you do not acknowledge Christ as the son of God. Allah is one. The term "son of God" doesn`t mean that you are AlLah. He is a son of the Father. Gabriel is equally a son of God.

You have mixed truth with falsehood I am afraid, lets seperate it, shall we? Firstly you are right about that us muslims have to believe in the previous scripture however it is a known factthat these books have undergone changes throughout time and thus their authenticity cant be varified, and thats why Allah sent down the Quran, a final statement to mankind from the same Lord that sent down the Taurah and Injeel. And Allah promised its preservation Himself, Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian. [Surah Hijr Ayah 9]

And if we look historically this is indeed the case the Quran is still in arabic as it was revealed and it hasnt been changed at all, even in the slightest. All Praise be to Allah Your second statment I am afraid is utter rubbish. And it makes me wonder, do you really read the Quran? Surely you have read;
And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! [Surah Tawbah Ayah 30]

Please define what you mean by the term "son" as I feel we do not agree with eachother on this. Are you the son of God aswell?

Now my problem is why did Mohamed say that Allah does not beget when Allah has so clearly made it known to us that He did beget many sons and daughters.

Im sorry but Allah has not said that, and be careful in utter such a lie.

Say: Those who forge a lie against Allah shall not be successful. [Surah Yunus Ayah 69]

[Khaldun]

:sl:

Some people keep repeating that the Quran is perfect and complete. If it is from God it should be, but then why is there hadith to complete and perfect the Quran?

To Complete? This is a false statement without any basis to it, the hadith explains the Quran, they go hand in hand, since the Hadith is from the Messenger of Allah it will not contradict the Quran in the slightest.

Turin Turambar, thats a nice fairy tale you have put there unless you have any solid evidence to bring please do not post such things, as anyone can make up baseless theories and it would not help us in this disscussion in the slightest.

[davejames2027]

:sl:



Please clarify, is Jesus son of God or son of Man I sense your perhaps confused?


I trust Allah :brother: although I trust the Quran more then I trust the Bible.

And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things. [Surah Maidah Ayah 116-117]



Please bring evidence before making any claims about what the Prophet (Peace and blessings upon him) believed. And tell me, if the Prophet really believed, as you say, that Jesus was the son of God then why would the Quran be full with conflicting verses and statments?


You have mixed truth with falsehood I am afraid, lets seperate it, shall we? Firstly you are right about that us muslims have to believe in the previous scripture however it is a known factthat these books have undergone changes throughout time and thus their authenticity cant be varified, and thats why Allah sent down the Quran, a final statement to mankind from the same Lord that sent down the Taurah and Injeel. And Allah promised its preservation Himself, Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian. [Surah Hijr Ayah 9]

And if we look historically this is indeed the case the Quran is still in arabic as it was revealed and it hasnt been changed at all, even in the slightest. All Praise be to Allah Your second statment I am afraid is utter rubbish. And it makes me wonder, do you really read the Quran? Surely you have read;
And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! [Surah Tawbah Ayah 30]

Please define what you mean by the term "son" as I feel we do not agree with eachother on this. Are you the son of God aswell?



Im sorry but Allah has not said that, and be careful in utter such a lie.

Say: Those who forge a lie against Allah shall not be successful. [Surah Yunus Ayah 69]

Concerning the term "son of God"

Here is some verses concerning this.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Ga 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

We cannot be sons of God without acknowledging Jesus Christ as the Messiah and beleiving him AND doing God`s will. Knowing that Allah is one and there is no One like Him is a foundation of truth. Islam has understood this. Mainstream Christianity has not, unfortunately.

Jesus said:
Mr 3:35 "For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother."

Be careful to judge me so quickly. There is a difference in someone who intently seeks to forge a lie and willingly deceive people and those who simply believe and want to share his view.

There is something that we all have to understand when reading Holy Writ or the Quran. We must be very cautious to deduce an idea or make a final conclusion when reading a certain statement. Here is what I mean:

Statement:
The ox (cow) with both of its ears piearced is in my backyard.

If I was to proceed to write down on a piece of paper that the ox with its right ear piearced is in my backyard, what might people conclude by my written statement?

1) I own the ox because it is in my backyard
2) that the animal`s left ear is not piearced

These assumptions are not necessarily true. We must be cautious in making final conclusions with verses or surahs that we read. Satan is very crafty.

If the Quran speaks of only one resurrection, does that mean that the possibility of a second resurrection or even a third, or yet again a fourth is to be thrown to the ground and trampled ?
(Now, because I mention 4 resurrections, do you assume I believe this?)

Unless we read a statement like "There exists ONLY one resurrection for all time." , we must not deduce anything else.

That is how we must approach reading God`s Word.

Ironically, just as the traditions of men (which Jesus clearly rebuked) and error the Catholic Church held, Islam also.

Traditions of men are not to be obeyed but the Living God.

[Khaldun]

:sl:

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

We cannot be sons of God without acknowledging Jesus Christ as the Messiah and beleiving him AND doing God`s will. Knowing that Allah is one and there is no One like Him is a foundation of truth. Islam has understood this. Mainstream Christianity has not, unfortunately.

Just as I suspected, there is a confusion in the term Son of God which most people have taken literally whereas even in the bible it has been translated as Servant and this is the orginial meaning of the Hebrew derivative.

Look at this;

King James Version
Acts 3:25 - Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Acts 3:26 - Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Compare it word for word with;

New King James Version
Acts 3:25 - You are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Acts 3:26 - To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning every one of you away from his iniquities.

This explains the word Son, and thus we do actually agree that in this sense Jesus was the "Son" of God (hebrew for Servant of God) see Son Of God?

Be careful to judge me so quickly. There is a difference in someone who intently seeks to forge a lie and willingly deceive people and those who simply believe and want to share his view.

Yes please do forgive me, but in my eyes this is still a lie against Allah, we will have to agree on disagreeing

There is something that we all have to understand when reading Holy Writ or the Quran. We must be very cautious to deduce an idea or make a final conclusion when reading a certain statement. Here is what I mean:

Statement:
The ox (cow) with both of its ears piearced is in my backyard.

If I was to proceed to write down on a piece of paper that the ox with its right ear piearced is in my backyard, what might people conclude by my written statement?

1) I own the ox because it is in my backyard
2) that the animal`s left ear is not piearced

These assumptions are not necessarily true. We must be cautious in making final conclusions with verses or surahs that we read. Satan is very crafty.

Praise be to Allah, you just explained the reason of the misunderstanding of the Word "Son" yourself! The word Son in hebrew is not the same as Son in other languages (take english as an example)

That is why Allah said;

Such is Isa, son of Marium; (this is) the saying of truth about which they dispute.

It beseems not Allah that He should take to Himself a ! son, glory to be Him; when He has decreed a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is.

And surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path.
[Surah Maryam Ayah 34-36]

If the Quran speaks of only one resurrection, does that mean that the possibility of a second resurrection or even a third, or yet again a fourth is to be thrown to the ground and trampled ?
(Now, because I mention 4 resurrections, do you assume I believe this?)

Unless we read a statement like "There exists ONLY one resurrection for all time." , we must not deduce anything else.

That is how we must approach reading God`s Word.

I understand your worry; however have you read Allah's statment?

And at the time when the hour shall come, the guilty shall swear (that) they did not tarry but an hour; thus are they ever turned away.

And those who are given knowledge and faith will say: Certainly you tarried according to the ordinance of Allah till the day of resurrection, so this is the day of resurrection, but you did not know. [Surah Ruum Ayah 55-56]

The Key word is "Day" and note it doesnt say "Days" thus there is only one main resurrection, I am sure you just took this as an example but Im only showing you that the Quran is not ambiguis in the least and the Prophet did explain it to the people.

Ironically, just as the traditions of men (which Jesus clearly rebuked) and error the Catholic Church held, Islam also.

Traditions of men are not to be obeyed but the Living God.

I think you are refering to the Hadith, correct me if Im wrong.
However these arent traditions of men, they are the sayings of the Messenger of Allah surely he would be the most knowledgable when it comes to the Quran...

[Turin Turambar]

To Khaldun,

Please don't get angry. We are both looking for the truth. You say that my story is a "fairy tale" and ask for a proof. The problem is that you don't have any proof of your version either! You cannot say that the Quran is true because the Quran says so. That is obviously wrong form a logical point of view. You would need a proof external to the Quran and that you don't have. So either your version is right or my version is right, but we don't have proofs. What to do?

Let's try with a real fairy tale. Suppose that TODAY in some place in China where most people follow Buddha or Confucius a new religion arises. The founder wants people to follow him and he claims that he is receiving a dictation from God. He takes some doctrines from Bhudda and some from Confucius, he mixes them and presents them as the new religion. He claims that both Buddha and Confucius were prophets as he is but he is superior to them because he came last. He insists on total obedience to himself.

You are left with two options:

1) He is really receiving TODAY a revelation from God that happens to incorporate bits and pieces of already existing religions.

2) He has some familiarity with the older religions and he is making everything up, taking those bits and pieces from them as he sees convenient.

What would you believe? That is exactly what I believe.

[abdul Majid]

"The Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you."
[Bible - John 14:26]

Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "A messenger will come after me,named Ahmad."
[Quran 61:6]

The chief priests and Levites asked John the Baptist, "If you are not the Christ (Messiah), and not Elijah - are you THAT Prophet?"
[John 1:20]





When the chief priests and Levites asked John the Baptist who he was, they asked him in a very strange way. First the questioned him as to whether or not he was the anticipated "Messiah" [Christ in Koine Greek]. He was not the "Messiah" that had hoped for. Next they asked if he was the prophet Elijah and again he tells them, "No." Now comes the really strange part. Finally, they asked him if he is "That Prophet?"

*
1. Are you Christ? - [No]
* 2. Are you Elijah? - [No]
* 3. Are you THAT Prophet? - [No]

What did they mean by "That Prophet?" We of course, know who the "Christ" is. After all, Christians should know that "Christ" is merely a shortened form of the Koine Greek word "christos," intended to mean the Hebrew word "Messiah."

The Jews of two thousand years ago were definitely looking for the Messiah, who it was foretold in their books, would come and lead them to victory over their oppressors and thus gain for them mastery over this world. They were very oppressed under Roman domination and even their own Jewish kings were seen as nothing more than puppets or agents for the disbelievers. Certainly, they would have been most happy to see someone come on the scene who would defeat their Roman masters and slave drivers.

Then the priests and Levites asked John the Baptist if he might be the prophet Elijah, returning back after hundreds of years being away. There was the notion amongst them that Elijah would come back. But again, John the Baptist is denying he is Elijah.

Then, who is he? They wonder at this man living out in the desert and forsaking wealth and luxury and fasting, avoiding the material attractions of life.

Again, they ask John the Baptist who he is. "Are you THAT Prophet?" And one more time he denies being "THAT Prophet," but then he does tell them about someone who will come after him soon, whom he claims he is not worthy to even unlace his shoes.

However, this does not answer the question, "Who were they expecting besides the Messiah?" Could it be they were looking for someone like Muhammad? (Could be)

Who is THAT Prophet? -

Keep reading and learn who "That Prophet" is and what other proofs can be discovered within the Holy texts to support this idea.

____________________

For centuries Muslims have believed Jesus, peace be upon him, was "THAT Prophet" mentioned in these words of the Gospel of John. The Quran states one of the important features of Jesus' mission was to give the "bashir" or 'glad tidings' of the coming of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. During his short missionary career that lasted not more than three years, and which was overshadowed by the hostile attitude of his own people, Jesus gave them the good news of Ahmad, (one of the forms of "Muhammad") the last messenger of God, who would perfect the divine teaching both in theory and in practice. The Quran mentions that, Jesus says:
"O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah {Almighty God} (sent) to you, confirming the Law (Torah or Old Testament) before me, and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." (Surah 61:6)

The Quran gives the name as Ahmad, one of several ways to say Muhammad's name. Just as we have in English the name Joseph, and often use a shorter form such as "Joe" or the familiar form, "Joey," and other names like "Jonathan" which becomes "John"; "Jack" or "Johnny", so in the same way we find Arabic has similar forms for a name. Muhammad, Ahmad and Hamad are a few of the names originating from the root word, "hamd" (meaning 'praise) in Arabic, and can be understood as "The one who praises (God)"; "the praised one"; "praising"; etc.

Abdullah Yusuf Ali in his translation of the meanings of the Quran to English, he states, "Ahmad or Muhammad, the Praised One is a translation of the Koine Greek word Periclytos. In the present gospel of John 14:16, 15:26 and 16:7, the Greek word Paracletos is translated in the NIV as Comforter. Paracletos can mean an Advocate, or "one called to the help of another", "a kind friend." Muhammad, peace be upon him, was known from birth as one who brought comfort and reconciliation to family, friends and strangers alike, especially in bringing together the ties of kinship and brotherly love.

Another nick name of the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, mentioned in the Bible (or at least what is left of it in the English language) is "The Spirit of Truth." As-Saddiq means exactly that and it is was another name given to Muhammad, peace be upon him, by those who knew his proclivity for honesty and integrity.

The New Testament Gospel according to John, Jesus, peace be upon him, promises them the Paracletos will come four times (John 14:16; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7). Naturally, Jesus, peace be upon him, did not return in their lifetime nor did any other prophet for that matter, so later thinkers came up with the notion that it was not Jesus "in person" but rather, Jesus coming back in "spirit form." This led some Christians to assert, this was to be the Holy Spirit, who would descend upon the disciples on the Day of the Pentecost (Acts 2), to witness Christ and lead them into the whole truth and to be with the believers forever, and they would not die (John 3:16), but have everlasting life. Also, some added verses later (see footnotes to Revised Standard Version of the Bible) to the very last chapter of Mark (16), wherein, they have the Spirit coming upon them in such a way they imagined themselves going to be able to speak with new languages; pick up snakes, lay hands on the sick to cure them and even drink poison and nothing would hurt them. [Luke 23:17-18]

Another point is, the Paracletos, comforter or the Spirit of truth, was going to dwell with us from now on. Certainly anyone could see Muhammad's influence and his message of worshipping only One God without any partners has prevailed long after his earthly life.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

1) He is really receiving TODAY a revelation from God that happens to incorporate bits and pieces of already existing religions.

2) He has some familiarity with the older religions and he is making everything up, taking those bits and pieces from them as he sees convenient.

In which case you admit that you have no evidence to back up your views on Prophet Muhammad pbuh but simply follow a personal bias in this matter.

[davejames2027]

Abdul Majid,

The greek word behind Spirit as in "spirit of truth" is "Pneuma" which is "Ruwack" in Hebrew.

Before Christ came to the earth, only a select few had God`s Ruh or Spirit. David wrote a song asking Allah not remove His Ruh from him. This could further give you hints and an indication of what exactly is God`s Spirit.

Ps 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

The Spirit of Truth that Christ mentionned in the Gospel of John is not Mohamed.

The Spirit of God is the Ruh of Allah. The Ruh is not a person. It is not Gabriel. It has no gender. It is the Power of Allah. We should not worship it but Allah only.

There was a prophet in the sacred land whose name was Yow’el and Allah revealed him this prophecy:

Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel: I am the LORD your God And there is no other. My people shall never be put to shame."And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit (RUWACH) on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.

This is the Spirit of Truth mentionned by our Lord Yahoshua. It is clearly not Mohamed. This prophecy in Yow`el has not been completed yet. It will only be complete when all flesh has Allah`s Ruah.

Joh 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. (NKJV)

This New Testament version has translated the original greek word "Parakletos" with the english word "Helper". The Parakletos is the Holy Spirit prophesied by Yow`el.

You cannot read the New Testament without the Hebrew Bible in the same way you cannot read the Quran without both the Hebrew Bible and New Testament. Do not listen to your teachers if they speak hatred toward Yahuwdah or any other people. We must not rebuke Shaitan if we are true worshippers of Elahh.

David

[akulion]

Greetings,

Here is the original biblical verse that you posted. I reposted it because words were added to it to suit the purposes.

Ps 2:7 ¶ "I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

God`s word has many levels. This was a psalm of David. He was also a prophet and this verse is saying that God does beget. When God creates people or angels, this is what we term "beget". Adam was a son of God and Christ was a son of God because lineage can be traced (see Luke). Adam was a son of God because He was created by God.

Nowhere in Quran is it explicitly written that the Bible is 100% corrupt. Only atheist and muslims I heard say this.

The Quran mentions by name most of the Prophets of old which are written in the Bible, but you listen to men who say the Bible is corrupted and therefore reject it as a whole.

The mere fact that "Lord" is written in caps or not should not be the cause of someones falling away from the faith. Would you reject the Quran if sometimes "Mohamed" was written as "Muhhamed" or again as "Mohammad" ? My personal Quran (Kanzul Iman) has many spelling mistakes which makes a mockery of the english language. Do I use this as an excuse to not believe the words written therein ?

We are not monkeys. We are men, will we therefore reject the Bible because someone said so ? Does Gabriel in the Quran say to reject the Bible ? Does Mohamed tell us to reject the Bible ?

The Bible says that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and Mohamed is subtely telling us also in the Quran to read the books of the Holy Scriptures. Prophet Mohamed mentions Abraham, Isaac,Jacob, Jesus,Jonas,David,Solomon . Do you think he invented these names ?

Why should we believe our teachers who say the Bible is corrupt and not to be heeded ?

Do we follow man or do we seek to follow Allah ?

You said :You have to see the truth that the Bible has been not only corrupted but also has been abandoned with the excuse that "Jesus died for our sins"

Do you abandon God`s Prophet and Messiah because mainstream Christianity uses the excuse "Jesus died for our sins" ?

Jesus was greater than Mohamed. Not to obey the Bible because of the excuse "the Bible is corrupt" does not come from angels or Allah but from men.

Your entire counter arguments are based on "take it as i say it" and dont adress the discrepencies...

Like I asked who decides where God is literal and where God is figuratively speaking?

who decides on tha caps ?

These things you dismiss so easily but for me they are very important because quite frankly I am not willing to hand over my self to the church on a silver platter and say "whatever u say is right"

As for "Jesus dying for our sins" is a self defeating argument because it makes the whole bible and its laws and rules obselete - so its credibility also goes don the drain quite frankly.

[abdul Majid]

dear dave,

im not gonna debate and all that but i agree on some things, like the bible itself was in aramayic, jews worship ilah as well, maybe thats why the crusified jesus(pbh) as they say....but What did they mean by "That Prophet?" We of course, know who the "Christ" is. After all, Christians should know that "Christ" is merely a shortened form of the Koine Greek word "christos," intended to mean the Hebrew word "Messiah."....and in ISLAM we beleive GODswt has NOO sons or duaghters or wife, GOD is all mighty, Moses(pbh) and the 10 COMANDMENTS, there really more but they say ten for now...., we beleive in them too,

[davejames2027]

Your entire counter arguments are based on "take it as i say it" and dont adress the discrepencies...

Like I asked who decides where God is literal and where God is figuratively speaking?

who decides on tha caps ?

These things you dismiss so easily but for me they are very important because quite frankly I am not willing to hand over my self to the church on a silver platter and say "whatever u say is right"

As for "Jesus dying for our sins" is a self defeating argument because it makes the whole bible and its laws and rules obselete - so its credibility also goes don the drain quite frankly.

Akulion,

You ask: Like I asked who decides where God is literal and where God is figuratively speaking?

God decides. We can only come to understand God`s Word if we have His Spirit in us. This is not polytheism. The Spirit of Allah is His power. It is the means we can understand spiritual matters. The only caveat for the gift of Allah`s Spirit is to be immersed under water in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and to believe that Jesus is the son of God. There is no other way. This is what Jesus taught the whole world. If we reject it and follow men`s traditions, we are not pleasing Allah and we will be raised up in the second resurrection with Hitler and Santa Claus. Allah is Allmighty and He is the One true God.

Mt 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Allah`s Sacred Law must be kept, including the 7th day of rest from friday dark to saturday dark. We are not saved because we keep Allah`s Sacred Law. What has been abolished however are the animals sacrifices, and that, because that Temple was destroyed 1936 years ago.

You say: who decides on tha caps ?
These things you dismiss so easily but for me they are very important because quite frankly I am not willing to hand over my self to the church on a silver platter and say "whatever u say is right"

I dont know who decides on the caps. What is important is pleasing Allah by obeying His commandments which are written in the Hebrew Bible and being in Christ. Will you tell Jesus in your day that you didn`t believe in the Bible because there were "caps" ?

The men who teach to disobey the Bible will be in graver trouble than those who have been duped. We must obey Allah and not men`s traditions.

David

[akulion]

Once again you are talking about faith

I am asking about logical explanation

We cannot mix logic and faith - one cannot believe then decide its the truth

it has to be decide and then believe

[davejames2027]

Akulion,

Everything that we hear from our teachers, we must prove with God`s Word to see if it is true and if we must obey it. We must not obey men if it goes against Allah`s Sacred Law. True Worshippers of Allah would die rather than to obey men`s traditions.

Mainstream Christianity today has taught that it is okay to have crosses around your neck as a reminder of Jesus` death on the stake. To put a cross around your neck is a transgression of Allah`s Sacred Law. Anyone who wears crosses or lunar crescents or any graven image will not have life.

The term "sons of God" is for those who are loyal to Allah. It is not joining Allah with other gods. Jesus Christ was the Son of God. He was not Allah but he was His Son and Allah is the Father, Allmighty. Do not believe me but believe Jesus himself because He said it.

Lu 22:70 Then they all said, "Are You then the Son of God?" So He said to them, "You rightly say that I am." (NKJV)

Will we be like the jews who in Jesus`time denied this ?

Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. (NKJV)

Just as Jesus said, no man can convince someone that Jesus Christ is the Son of God but only Allah.

David

[azim]

God decides. We can only come to understand God`s Word if we have His Spirit in us.

I really dont know what kind of spirits you were drinking when you decided this, but you said...

This is not polytheism. The Spirit of Allah is His power. It is the means we can understand spiritual matters. The only caveat for the gift of Allah`s Spirit is to be immersed under water in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and to believe that Jesus is the son of God. There is no other way. This is what Jesus taught the whole world.

If you can show me where in the Bible Jesus teaches the above, I might take you a little bit more seriously (but only a little).

If we reject it and follow men`s traditions, we are not pleasing Allah and we will be raised up in the second resurrection with Hitler and Santa Claus. Allah is Allmighty and He is the One true God.

Men's traditions...men like Paul? The laws of the Quran are the laws of the OT, both from God. Everything that you are preaching comes from Matthew, John, Luke, Mark and Paul. All of them men. None of them trustworthy.

Who is following men's teachings?

Who is following Gods?

[akulion]

All my teachers always explained things to us

So they were logical and we understood why we have to learn them

Even the alphabet - we learn it to be able to read and write all those colorful story books (made sence to me)

So I cannot believe first and then read

Its like someone saying to me "believe in the holy monkey - afterwards we can discuss the nitty gritty details"

Unacceptable

[davejames2027]

John 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. (NKJV)

Joh 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (NKJV)

Joh 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (NKJV)

Cannibalism is forbidden. So is drinking blood. Unless you feed off from Christ, there is no life in you.

Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." (RSV)

False teachers of today will use verse 17 above to prove that the disciples worshipped Jesus so therefore he must be God. The original greek word behind "worshipped" here is the greek term "proskuneo". This means to make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. The apostles did not worship Jesus. They worshipped Allah. They prayed to Allah the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ.

The word "baptizing" here in verse 19 is the greek word "baptizo" which means to immerse, to submerge in water. Not sprinkled water on the forehead: Fully submerged under water in the name of Jesus Christ and Allah by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is what the original greek text says. This is not a tradition, these are the words Jesus Christ spoke. We must obey him.

Lu 6:46 "But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say? (NKJV)

Lu 18:19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

You said:Men's traditions...men like Paul?

Definition of "tradition" according to the Oxford Dictionary 10th ed.:
1.Transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being so passed on.

2.Theology (in Christianity) - Doctrine not explicit in the Bible but held to derive from the oral teaching of Christ and the Apostles.

3.(In Judaism) an ordinance of the oral law not in the Torah but held to have been given by God to Moses.

4.(in Islam) a saying or act ascribed to the Prophet but not recorded in the Koran.

All of these has Jesus Christ himself spoke against.

Mr 7:9 He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. (NKJV)

Mr 7:13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do." (NKJV)

You said:Men's traditions...men like Paul? The laws of the Quran are the laws of the OT, both from God. Everything that you are preaching comes from Matthew, John, Luke, Mark and Paul. All of them men. None of them trustworthy.

The Quran doesn`t contain all of Allah`s commandments. Yes, men have written the Bible just as men have written the Quran. Now do you need for me to define to you the word "written" ?

We may think they are not valid but that is only because we disobey Allah and obey rather the traditions of our teachers. Nowhere in the Quran is it written that the Hebrew Bible is to be rejected.

True worshippers of Allah would die rather than to obey false teachers of traditions.

David

[Munda Pakistani]

Hello sir,

Logically, if the Bible could be corrupted, do you not think that the Quran could also be corrupted ?

The adversary (Shaitan) seeks to corrupt what is true (He doesnt bother to corrupt what is already false). The Quran, which was Gabriel`s words commanded by Allah in the 600`s is truth.

It is undeniable fact that some verses in the Bible have been corrupt. Shaitan seeks to corrupt what is true. He is the god of this world and has been given rulership of this planet. The verses that have been corrupted have all been exposed and documented. God has granted humanity immense mercy and grace by showing them to us.

We simply need to do some research and pray God that He bestows upon us mercy and He will indeed show us the corrupted verses. The important ones can be found on the internet.

What man among you will not seek and search the precious gem that fell into the barrel of cow dung, and be glad when he finds it ?

No. There are more than 10 million Muslims today who know the Qur'an by heart. Each and every word. How many people can say the same for the Bible.

If you agree that this Bible is indeed not as it was when it was revealed to Isa Alaih-as-Salam, then please tell me how you can tell which verses are corrupt? Is not every single verse the n in doubt?

When Allah sends a book to guide his sons, figuratively, he sends it for all manking unti the last day. And for that to happen, everyone must have access to Allah's word as it is. That, in turn, necessitates a book free of corruption; in a nutshell, that, in turn, necessitates the Qur'an.

Peace.

[davejames2027]

No. There are more than 10 million Muslims today who know the Qur'an by heart. Each and every word. How many people can say the same for the Bible.

If you agree that this Bible is indeed not as it was when it was revealed to Isa Alaih-as-Salam, then please tell me how you can tell which verses are corrupt? Is not every single verse the n in doubt?

When Allah sends a book to guide his sons, figuratively, he sends it for all manking unti the last day. And for that to happen, everyone must have access to Allah's word as it is. That, in turn, necessitates a book free of corruption; in a nutshell, that, in turn, necessitates the Qur'an.

Peace.

Greetings,

Learning the Quran or Bible by heart is utterly useless if we keep the false traditions of our teachers. God has given us the capacity to memorize scripture but that accomplishes nothing if we keep men`s traditions over Allah`s Sacred Law. Nowhere does Jesus command us to memorize the Bible but he did command us to obey him and to obey God in keeping His commandments.

To believe our teachers when they say "the Bible is to be rejected as truth" is obeying men and their traditions.

You said:If you agree that this Bible is indeed not as it was when it was revealed to Isa Alaih-as-Salam, then please tell me how you can tell which verses are corrupt? Is not every single verse the n in doubt?

In a nutshell, it is the Spirit of Allah that tells us which verses are corrupt.

1John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. (NKJV)

This verse has been added in the ancient greek manuscripts. With a little research of your own, you can find the locality of the manuscripts and purchase a plan ticket and visit the museum where it is held and you will see for yourself the different colored ink added. Men have attempted to corrupt the text and in some limited way, they did. But it changes nothing in God`s plan.

Those who are convicted by truth will not blindly believe what men speak if it cannot be verified by Holy Writ.

David

[Turin Turambar]

To Ansar Al-'Adl:

You got my point! Of course I don't have any evidence. But the Chinese peasant who is claiming to be equal and superior to Buddha and Confucius doesn't have any evidence either! You have to take his word in order to believe him.

So you don't have any evidence in favor or against his utterances being true.

But you have one thing. You have your common sense.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

You got my point! Of course I don't have any evidence. But the Chinese peasant who is claiming to be equal and superior to Buddha and Confucius doesn't have any evidence either! You have to take his word in order to believe him.

Oh, but we do have evidence! :okay: I have posted several times before on the evidence for the divine authorship of the Qur'an, and the Prophethood of Muhammad pbuh, see this post for instance:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-word-god.html

We can continue in that thread, if you wish to discuss further.

Peace

[davejames2027]

Greetings,

in one of my post in this thread, I wrote :

"The words that Allah pronounces can never corrupt or be changed. The moment we write God`s words on paper or parchment, it is automatically subject to destruction. (all matter returns to dust)"

By the mercy of my Father Eloah in the name of my Lord Yahoshua, I would like to clarify this to:

"The words that Allah pronounces can never corrupt or be changed. The moment we write God`s words on something that perishes like paper or parchment (all returns to dust), it becomes only a matter of time that a new copy needs to be produced."

And in another post I wrote :

"When God creates people or angels, this is what we term "beget". Adam was a son of God and Christ was a son of God because lineage can be traced (see Luke). Adam was a son of God because He was created by God."

I need to clarify this.

Joh 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten god who is in the bosom with the Father is the one that has explained him. (NWT)

Joh 3:16 "For God loved the world so much that He gave His only begotten-Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. (NWT)

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (NKJV)

Jesus Christ is the only god that was begotten (or born) in human form by the womb of a woman. Allah creates. Jesus Christ is subordinate to Allah. I hope that clarifies.

David

[Falafel Eater]

What does Mohamed mean when it is written that Allah has not begotten a son ?

Hi, Im sorry that the other Forum members didnt point this out, but Muhammad (Peace be upon him) the final Messenger sent by God and the most noblest of men did not write the Quran.

Rather it is the Word of God, revealed to Muhammad (SAW) by the Angel Gabriel.

Secondly, the Noble Quran, has better translation:
http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/neindex.htm

ALL translations of the Quran are ROUGH translations.

Good bye, I hope you read the Quran with an open mind and actually think about the Lord most high. God would never need a "son" or helper.

[sweetangel16]

how can god who created this world with its complexion have a son ? and if he have a son would he b a human? like us? and he god who is so mighty and powerful...
muslims believe in god oneness... that he alone runs the world....
prophet mohammed came to preach islam was a completion of christianity and judasim as u see islam is way of life and it it runs muslims lives ...

the holy quran talks about jesus and mary and considers jesus peace be upon him to b one of the prophets just like mohamed peace b upon him

and we muslims are required to love and respect jesus and moses ...

but for muslims we just dont belive that god has any sons wives etc... is the one and only with no partners....

[sweetangel16]

btw the quran is teh onli religious book that has one authnetic version
the bible has like thousands of versions... how?? god is not gonna send thousands of books...
and every version says somethign different and sometimes they are contradicting...
the torah has some diff versions too but not as much as the bible....

[Turin Turambar]

To sweetangel16:

I will tell you a little about what we Christians mean when we say that Jesus is the "Son of God".

Many Muslims get all confused about this idea. They think that we Christians believe that God got married, had a son and then perhaps will have grandchildren.

Obviously we don't believe anything like that.

This is a great mystery but the best approximation developed by Christian thinkers is the following. God the Father exists for all eternity and for all eternity he thinks. So in His Mind he develops a concept, an idea of Himself. This idea has all the perfections that God the Father has, among them the perfection of existence. Thus, God has an idea of Himself that has its own existence. This Idea, also called the Word, or the Meaning is God the Son.

It was God the Son who came to our world and He shared our life and our suffering. He did that because God loves us and He wanted to manifest his love. God the Son, when He walked on this Earth, was known as Jesus of Nazareth.

He wasn't a prophet. He was much more than that. A prophet is somebody who is not God, who tells you how to behave in order to approach God. Jesus WAS God. Following Him was following God. That is why he didn't need to give us careful instructions about how to behave in every little detail of our daily lives. He wasn't pointing to the way as a prophet do, He WAS the Way.

Read more about Him, and from better sources. It is all over the Internet. You will find love, the most important thing ever.

[Khaldun]

:sl:

You are left with two options:

1) He is really receiving TODAY a revelation from God that happens to incorporate bits and pieces of already existing religions.

2) He has some familiarity with the older religions and he is making everything up, taking those bits and pieces from them as he sees convenient.

What would you believe? That is exactly what I believe.

Brother Ansar gave a useful link for this. And I apologise if I seemed angry however these are very serious matters we are talking about and anyone can come in and make up ridicules claims I hope you understand.

I remember someone saying that muslims believe the WHOLE Bible is corrupt, this ofcourse would be an unfair statement and muslims do not believe this, however because of the translations made etc there are bound to be errors and the fact that the Gospels were written along time afterwards all add up to errors.

And as we know the conscept of the trinity was introduced later on, this would be a grave deviation from the "original" Injeel.

DaveJames2027 Im very pleased to see that we do agree on a large scale (even though the term begetton and son wouldnt be accepted by muslims) however you do manage to confuse me;

Jesus Christ is the only god that was begotten (or born) in human form by the womb of a woman. Allah creates. Jesus Christ is subordinate to Allah. I hope that clarifies.

David

I thought we agreed on that Jesus was not God but the "Son" (ie servant) of God? Is this now thrown out of the window?

And if you could find time, please reply to my previous post, thanks.

So in His Mind he develops a concept, an idea of Himself. This idea has all the perfections that God the Father has, among them the perfection of existence. Thus, God has an idea of Himself that has its own existence. This Idea, also called the Word, or the Meaning is God the Son.

Turin Turambar

So in other words Jesus is as perfect in existence as God?

He wasn't a prophet. He was much more than that. A prophet is somebody who is not God, who tells you how to behave in order to approach God. Jesus WAS God.

I have a feeling that we are taking a huge step backwards in this disscussion, and this is spot on with why the muslims hate to use the word Son (even if it means servant)

Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.

Will they not then turn to Allah and ask His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away. [Surah Maidah Ayah 72-75]

[davejames2027]

To sweetangel16:

I will tell you a little about what we Christians mean when we say that Jesus is the "Son of God".

Many Muslims get all confused about this idea. They think that we Christians believe that God got married, had a son and then perhaps will have grandchildren.

Obviously we don't believe anything like that.

This is a great mystery but the best approximation developed by Christian thinkers is the following. God the Father exists for all eternity and for all eternity he thinks. So in His Mind he develops a concept, an idea of Himself. This idea has all the perfections that God the Father has, among them the perfection of existence. Thus, God has an idea of Himself that has its own existence. This Idea, also called the Word, or the Meaning is God the Son.

It was God the Son who came to our world and He shared our life and our suffering. He did that because God loves us and He wanted to manifest his love. God the Son, when He walked on this Earth, was known as Jesus of Nazareth.

He wasn't a prophet. He was much more than that. A prophet is somebody who is not God, who tells you how to behave in order to approach God. Jesus WAS God. Following Him was following God. That is why he didn't need to give us careful instructions about how to behave in every little detail of our daily lives. He wasn't pointing to the way as a prophet do, He WAS the Way.

Read more about Him, and from better sources. It is all over the Internet. You will find love, the most important thing ever.

Turin Turambar,

No verse in the Bible states that Jesus is the Father. In fact, that is binitarianism and was invented in the different councils that took place in the 3rd & 4th century. Jesus is not the Father. Thus, Jesus is not Allah and he is not God as God is God. Only Allah or Eloah or Elahh is the one true God and He alone do true Christians worship, pray and serve. We do not worship or pray to Jesus nor we do we pray to Gabriel or Michael or to Mariam who is dead.

2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. (NKJV)

Jesus Christ is the image of God. He is not that God.
God has indeed warned us not to worship images, and this includes Jesus the Christ.

Ex 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; (NKJV)

No man has ever seen nor ever can or even hear His voice.

1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. (NKJV)

1Jo 4:12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. (NKJV)

Therefore, Jesus Christ is not Allah.

The famous John 1:1 which has confused many a Christians states:

John 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (NKJV)

Here it is in romanized characters.

John 1:1 [In]en [beginning]arch [was]hn [the word]o logov [and]kai [the word]o logov [was]hn [toward]prov [THE God]ton yeon [and]kai [god]yeov [was]hn [the]o [word]logov

Thus John 1:1 In beginning was the word and the word was toward The God and god was the word.

There is a difference between "God" and "god". It is known fact that they are many gods in existence. Michael and Gabriel are gods and the adversary is the god of this age. So is Jesus Christ a god. They are not however The God, Eloah.

David

[davejames2027]

Greetings,

a quick question to my arab friends here:

would you be so kind as to tell me what word in the orinigal arabic is translated as the verb "beget", whether it be "begot" or "begotten" or any other verbal tense ?

such as in...

Su 17:111 Say: "Praise be to Allah, who begets no son, and has no partner in His dominion: Nor needs He any to protect Him from humiliation: yea, magnify Him for His greatness and glory!"

Su 19:35 It is not befitting to the majesty of Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.

Su 19:92 For it is not consonant with the majesty of Allah Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

Su 23:91 No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: if there were many gods, behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! He is free from the sort of things they attribute to Him!

Su 112:3 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

Thank you

David

[songinwind]

Islam does not cause confusion to the believer concerning Allah. Allah is one in Islam. Allah has no son or father. Allah has no parallel or equal.
According to Islam Jesus is not the son of Allah. Jesus is Allah's apostle. So is Moses. So is Muhammad (Peace be Upon Them.) So are all Prophets and Apostles. Allah has no son or sons.
To believe that God is unique, and vastly superior to his creation, and yet has a son is inconsistent. This lowers God to human carnal level.
In today's Christianity, it is said that God had his son killed in order to save humanity. With all respect to our Christian friends, it is difficult to accept this, because it is against the justice and Might of God. Why should God kill to save? It is unfair to kill an innocent person to save others. In addition, Allah does not need to kill anyone to save others. Allah can save without killing. Further, it is difficult to see the relationship between killing and saving. It is difficult to convince a person of how, if Allah kills his son, other men are saved. Further, it is difficult to convinced people that Allah killed his only son, when he should protect him.
In Islam, this issue is clear, logical, and rational. In Islam, Allah is one. Allah has no son. Allah does not kill. A person is not saved by God's killing another person. In Islam, your saved or doomed by yourself and your deeds. In Islam, Allah shows us the right path and the wrong path through the Holy Quran; our responsibility is to choose either path; each one of us is saved or doomed according to his choice and, consequently, according to his deeds
Islam does not have the concept of Trinity or the concept of "the three in one". It is very difficult for the mind to accept or understand how one being can be Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit simultaneously. Furthermore, Allah has no son and does not need sons, because Allah is the owner of everything and the Creator of all beings.
Jesus did not say he was Allah. Jesus said, "I do nothing of myself" This would indicate that the miracles of Jesus are given to him by Allah, like all Apostles before and after. He also said, "I am not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God"
This means that Jesus refers to God as a Father metaphorically, because he says that God is his Father and their Father. If Jesus is Allah how did Allah kill him or have him killed? According to Islam, Jesus is a man, an exemplary man, a holy man, an apostle chosen by God to be a model for the people he was sent to.
In Islam, there is no mediation between Allah and Men. You do not need to go to a priest, to confess or repent to him. In Islam, every Muslim has a direct contacts with Allah, no matter how weak, poor, or ignorant he is. In Islam, Allah is the God of all. Every Muslim decides by himself how near or how far he wants to be from God, depending on his free will and deeds. In Islam, there are no mediators between Man and Allah
In Islam, there are no men of religion, as in some other beliefs. In Islam, every Muslim is responsible for his own belief and for Islam in general. In Islam, there are scholars of religion, but there is no class of clergymen.
In Islam, there is no celibacy, because celibacy is against human nature. Islam urges the Muslim to get married as soon as he can, because it is difficult for normal people to be religious and unmarried at the same time. Islam, as a rule organizes human nature, but never destroys it goes against it.
Islam is a religion, but not in the western meaning of religion. The western connotation of the term "religion" is something between the believer and God. Islam is a religion organizes all aspects of life on both the individual and national levels. Islam organizes your relations with God, with yourself, with your children, with your relatives, with your neighbour, with your guest, and with other brethren. Islam clearly establishes your duties and rights in all those relationships. Islam establishes a clear system of worship, civil rights, laws of marriage and divorce, laws of inheritance, code of behaviour, what not to drink, what to wear, and what not to wear, how to worship God, how to govern, the laws of war and peace, when to go to war, when to make peace, the law of economics, and the laws of buying and selling.
Islam is a complete code of life. Islam is not for the mosque only. Islam is for life, daily life. Islam is a guide to life in all its aspects: socially, economically, and politically. Islam is complete constitution. Thus Islam keeps the Muslim away from confusion, because Islam is logical and rational. Allah is one. Allah is one Allah has no sons. Allah is not trinity. Allah does not kill to save. No mediation is required between Allah and man. Islam organizes human nature, but does not go against it. There is not a class of clergy in Islam; nor is there celibacy. Islam is complete code of human life.
http://www.angislam.org/broch1/eb039.htm

pray this helps...as I am not good at explainning ..But the idea that God has to kill a son to prove something, just doesn't make sense to me...peace to you

[Khaldun]

:sl:

Verse 17:111 says "lam yattakhidh waladan" "he did not give (to him) a son". It is actually written "he did not take a son (to him)".

Correct, infact in all the verses you qouted that word is used, except the last where it is "Yalid" and "Yulad" which mean begetton or Beget.


I must say though people like you, you can see glimps of the early christians :)

No man has ever seen nor ever can or even hear His voice.

Vision comprehends Him not, and He comprehends (all) vision; and He is the Knower of subtleties, the Aware. [Surah Al Anam Ayah 103]

God has indeed warned us not to worship images, and this includes Jesus the Christ.

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Surah Zumar Ayah 3]

And guess what these early christians said when they heared about the truth?

And when they hear what has been revealed to the apostle you will see their eyes overflowing with tears on account of the truth that they recognize; they say: Our Lord! we believe, so write us down with the witnesses (of truth).

And what (reason) have we that we should not believe in Allah and in the truth that has come to us, while we earnestly desire that our Lord should cause us to enter with the good people?

Therefore Allah rewarded them on account of what they said, with gardens in which rivers flow to abide in them; and this is the reward of those who do good (to others).
[Surah Maidah Ayah 83-85]

[Kittygyal]

:rant: well lets get this straight christians do worship jesus's christ and muslimz worship god but at the end of the day wot ever they worship that's them :offended:

[Turin Turambar]

To songinwind:

You say:

"Islam is a religion, but not in the western meaning of religion. The western connotation of the term "religion" is something between the believer and God. Islam is a religion organizes all aspects of life on both the individual and national levels. Islam organizes your relations with God, with yourself, with your children, with your relatives, with your neighbour, with your guest, and with other brethren. Islam clearly establishes your duties and rights in all those relationships. Islam establishes a clear system of worship, civil rights, laws of marriage and divorce, laws of inheritance, code of behaviour, what not to drink, what to wear, and what not to wear, how to worship God, how to govern, the laws of war and peace, when to go to war, when to make peace, the law of economics, and the laws of buying and selling."

If Islam establishes all things, could you please tell me how is it compatible with the Constitution and the laws of the USA? After all, in this country the laws of war and peace, the laws of buying and selling, etc. are made by the President and the Congress? You don't like that system? What happens if the two systems collide, which one prevails?

Thanks.

[Ninth_Scribe]

Hello,

I am studying Quran. And I sometimes fall upon surahs like :

What does Mohamed mean when it is written that Allah has not begotten a son ?

Thank you,

a puzzled student

I had to laugh at this whole mess! I ran across it when trying to work out the "He said, She said, They said, We said" BS that resulted in Azrael being called an Angel of Death. Apparently, there have been quite a few "messes" made, so now the records look like a literal train-wreck. The particular mess your talking about was caused by Constantine... have a read under Azrael's Christian History:

http://www.songofazrael.org/whoisazrael.html

Just be warned, you might not like what you see, but the records were all triple checked, placed in chronological order and verified by the religious scholars. This, by the way, is why you'll see comments posted by me that define religious divisions as... evil.

Ninth Scribe

[muslimahh]

A nice article


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Islamic Perspective
(From Newsweek.com; March 27, 2000)

At the onset of Ramadan last year, Vatican officials sent greetings to the world's Muslims, inviting them to reflect on Jesus as "a model and permanent message for humanity." But for Muslims, the Prophet Muhammad is the perfect model for humankind and in the Qur'an (in Arabic only), they believe, the very Word of God dwells among us.

Even so, Muslims recognize Jesus as a great prophet and revere him as Isa ibn Maryam—Jesus, the son of Mary, the only woman mentioned by name in the Qur'an. At a time when many Christians deny Jesus' birth to a virgin, Muslims find the story in the Qur'an and affirm that it is true. "It's a very strange situation, where Muslims are defending the miraculous birth of Jesus against Western deniers," says Seyyed Hossein Nasr, professor of Islamic studies at George Washington University. "Many Westerners also do not believe that Jesus ascended into heaven. Muslims do." Indeed, many Muslims see themselves as Christ's true followers.


What Muslims believe about Jesus comes from the Qur'an—not the New Testament, which they consider tainted by human error. They also draw upon their own oral traditions, called hadith, and on experts' commentaries. In these sources, Jesus is born of Mary under a palm tree by a direct act of God. From the cradle, the infant Jesus announces that he is God's prophet, though not God's son, since Allah is "above having a son" according to the Qur'an.

Nonetheless, the Muslim Jesus enjoys unique spiritual prerogatives that other prophets, including Muhammad, lack. Only Jesus and his mother were born untouched by Satan. Even Muhammad had to be purified by angels before receiving prophethood. Again, in the Qur'an Muhammad is not presented as a miracle worker, but Jesus miraculously heals the blind, cures lepers and "brings forth the dead by [Allah's] leave." In this way Jesus manifests himself as the Messiah, or "the anointed one." Muslims are not supposed to pray to anyone but Allah. But in popular devotions many ask Jesus or Mary or John the Baptist for favors. (According to one recent estimate, visions of Jesus or Mary have occurred some 70 times in Muslim countries since 1985.)

Although Muhammad supersedes Jesus as the last and greatest of the prophets, he still must die. But in the Qur'an, Jesus did not die, nor was he resurrected. Muslims believe that Jesus asked God to save him from crucifixion, as the Gospels record, and that God answered his prayer by taking him directly up to heaven. "God would not allow one of his prophets to be killed," says Martin Palmer, director of the International Consultancy on Religion, Education and Culture in Manchester, England. "If Jesus had been crucified, it would have meant that God had failed his prophet."

When the end of the world approaches, Muslims believe that Jesus will descend to defeat the antichrist—and, incidentally, to set the record straight. His presence will prove the Crucifixion was a myth and eventually he will die a natural death. "Jesus will return as a Muslim," says Nasr, "in the sense that he will unite all believers in total submission to the one God."

[cool_jannah]

Jesus in the Glorious Qur'an

<H4>

The Qur’an tells us a lot of wonderful things about Jesus. As a result, believers in the Qur’an love Jesus, honour him, and believe in him. In fact, no Muslim can be a Muslim unless he or she believes in Jesus, on whom be peace.</H4>The Qur’an says that Jesus was born of a virgin, that he spoke while he was still only a baby, that he healed the blind and the leper by God’s leave, and that he raised the dead by God’s leave.
What then is the significance of these miracles? First, the virgin birth. God demonstrates his power to create in every way. God created everyone we know from a man and a woman. But how about Adam, on whom be peace? God created him from neither a man nor a woman. And Eve from only a man, but not a woman. And, finally, to complete the picture, God created Jesus from a woman, but not a man.
What about the other miracles? These were to show that Jesus was not acting on his own behalf, but that he was backed by God. The Qur’an specifies that these miracles were performed by God’s leave. This may be compared to the Book of Acts in the Bible, chapter 2, verse 22, where it says that the miracles were done by God to show that he approved of Jesus. Also, note that Jesus himself is recorded in the Gospel of John to have said, “I can do nothing of my own authority” (5:30). The miracles, therefore, were done not by his own authority, but by God’s authority.
What did Jesus teach? The Qur’an tells us that Jesus came to teach the same basic message which was taught by previous prophets from God—that we must shun every false god and worship only the one true God. Jesus taught that he is the servant and messenger of that one true God, the God of Abraham. These Quranic teachings can be compared with the Bible ( Mark 10:18; Matthew 26:39; John 14:28, 17:3, and 20:17) where Jesus teaches that the one he worshipped is the only true God. See also Matthew 12:18; Acts 3:13, and 4:27 where we find that his disciples knew him as Servant of God.
The Qur’an tells us that some of the Israelites rejected Jesus, and conspired to kill him, but Allah (God) rescued Jesus and raised him to Himself. Allah will cause Jesus to descend again, at which time Jesus will confirm his true teachings and everyone will believe in him as he is and as the Qur’an teaches about him.
Jesus is the Messiah. He is a word from Allah, and a spirit from Him. He is honoured in this world and in the hereafter, and he is one of those brought nearest to Allah.
Jesus was a man who spoke the truth which he heard from God. This can be compared with the Gospel According to John where Jesus says to the Israelites: “You are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God” (John 8:40).


The Virgin Birth of Jesus

Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. When the angels announced to Mary (peace be upon her) about Allah’s promise that she will have a son, she was surprised, since she was a virgin. “How can this be?” she thought. She was reminded that it is easy for Allah to create whatever he wills.

She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is (Qur’an 3:47).

It is not difficult for Allah to do anything he wants. He can create a child with both human parents or only one. No miracle is beyond His power. After all, He had created Adam (peace be upon him) from neither a man nor a woman. He created the rest of us from both man and woman. What is so hard if Allah decides to create a human being from a woman only? He only commands “Be!” and it occurs.
Some people think that since Jesus, peace be upon him, had no human father then God must be his father. The Qur’an rejects this view. The position of Jesus with Allah is comparable to the position of Adam with Allah. Just because Adam had no human parent does not mean we should call him the Son of God.

Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is. (Qur’an 3:59).

According to the Qur’an, everyone except Allah are His servants.

And they say: the Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a Son. Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing, whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall to ruins, that ye ascribe to the Beneficent a son, when it is not meet for (the Majesty of) the Beneficent that He should chose a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the Beneficent as a slave. (Qur’an 19:88-93)

The Miracles of Jesus

According to the Qur’an, Jesus, on whom be peace, performed the following miracles by Allah’s leave:
1. Spoke while he was only a baby.
2. Healed those born blind.
3. Healed the lepers.
4. Revived the dead.
5. Breathed life into a bird made of clay.
In the Qur’an Allah quotes Jesus, peace be upon him, as saying:

Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird by Allah’s leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah’s leave. And I announce to you what you eat and what you store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you if you are to be believers.
And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path. (Qur’an 3: 49-51).

Again, in the Qur’an Allah tells us about the situation on the Day of Judgement:

In the day when Allah gathers together the messengers and says: What was your response (from mankind)? they say: We have no knowledge. Lo! Thou, only Thou art the Knower of Things Hidden.
When Allah says: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto you and unto your mother; how I strengthened you with the holy Spirit, so that you spoke unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught you the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how you did shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and did blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and you did heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission . . . (Qur’an 5:109-110)

Not all of these miracles are recorded in the canonical gospels, the four gospels contained in the Christian Bible.
The fact that Jesus spoke while he was yet a baby is not written anywhere in the Bible. This should not be surprising, because none of the Gospels can claim to recover every single event in the life of Jesus. Instead, the gospel According to John seeks to emphasize that the events were too many to record.
Similarly, the miracle of breathing life into a bird made of clay is not attested by the Christian Bible. This too should not make us wonder. It is obvious that the writers of the gospels could write down only the tradition that was available to them. Furthermore, they could not write down everything they knew about Jesus for they were writing on papyrus material that were very limited in length.
What is worthy to notice here is that the Prophet Muhammad, may peace and the blessings of Allah be upon him, was honest enough to promulgate this information about Jesus. The religion taught by God through Muhammad would deny the divinity of Jesus. Any human being, therefore, who wished to deny the divinity of Jesus would have tried to belittle Jesus. Since Christians looked upon the miracles of Jesus as a proof of his divinity, we might expect that any human being who tries to deny the divinity of Jesus would not have informed people of miracles not previously known to them. He might have even tried to deny some of the miracles recorded in the canonical gospels. On the other hand, the prophet Muhammad honestly conveyed the message delivered to him from Allah. (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.)
Allah tells us the truth without fear. Human beings trying to win followers tell us only what is conducive to winning us over. They usually withhold information that could lead to opposite conclusions. On the other hand, Allah informs us about the miracles of Jesus even if people use this information to support their prior commitment to the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus. Allah does not need to win worshippers. Those who worship Allah does so for their own good. And those who worship false gods do so to their own detriment.
What Allah emphasizes, though, is that the miracles of Jesus do not prove he was divine. The miracles he performed were a sign, a proof, that he was God’s messenger. He performed them with God’s help and permission. Those who use his miracles as proof of his divinity would choose to forget the following sayings of Jesus:

I can of my own authority do nothing. (John 5:30)

They also forget the declaration of Peter:

Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves know. (Acts 2:22 KJV).

These passages suggest that Jesus did not do miracles on his own. These, rather were accomplished by God’s leave. Allah reminds us of this. Jesus also constantly repeated to his audience that the miracles he performed were by God’s leave.

[sargon]

:sl:
Is there a reason for Jesus' special birth?
:w: