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akulion
02-20-2006, 07:18 PM
Holocaust denier Irving is jailed
British historian David Irving is jailed for three years in Austria after pleading guilty to Holocaust denial.

=========To Read full article click heading above===============

Isnt it strange that offending the Muslims is "Free Speech"

While offending the Jews is a Crime

Double Standards Exposed!
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knuckles
02-20-2006, 07:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by akulion
Holocaust denier Irving is jailed
British historian David Irving is jailed for three years in Austria after pleading guilty to Holocaust denial.

=========To Read full article click heading above===============

Isnt it strange that offending the Muslims is "Free Speech"

While offending the Jews is a Crime

Double Standards Exposed!
2 countries (the other is Germany) out of how many Western countries?:rollseyes People in the West actually don't agree with this law.
Reply

akulion
02-20-2006, 07:36 PM
The law is the law - actions speak louder than words!

And I remember saying "let see how they would react if someone said or wrote or made bad things about jewish people"

And now here we have it :p

Oh and its not 2 countries:

COUNTRIES WITH LAWS AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL
Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Israel
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Switzerland
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Smok
02-20-2006, 08:06 PM
In Poland there is different situation. During WWII not only Jews were murdering but also Poles. My country lost 25% of its population! 6600000 polish citizens were murdered by Germans. Around 1000000 were murdered by Russians. So as you can see holocaust is not only "jewish thing". It is also "polish thing".That is why all atempts to deny holocaust are very dangerous to do in Poland. You can not only be sent to jail but also you can be beaten by people because every polish family lost someone during WWII.
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Muezzin
02-20-2006, 08:13 PM
That's understandable, Smok.

I'm of the mindset that Holocaust denial is extremely offensive to Jewish people, and so it is rightly regulated.

I feel the same protection should be afforded to other religions, including, but not limited to, Islam.
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akulion
02-20-2006, 08:15 PM
Well it is disgusting though
Like Iran for example holding that contest - I dont support that either
Nor do I support any form of hurting other people on purpose.

For example: I am opposed to homosexuality
But you wont find me calling a gay person names or anything if I met them.
I would act normal but if they asked I would tell them I dont agree with it.

I do think the west has double standards when it comes to freedom of speech because even in the 1990's a book was taken out of publication in the USA because it made fun of Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings and victims.

At that time I still remember the US govt apologized to Japan and had the book taken out of publication because it was afraid of damaged trade relationships between the 2 countries.

I sincerely wish I had the article for it - but its been such a long time that I only remember the Issue from recollection
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Nicola
02-20-2006, 08:16 PM
Though I can understand your feelings

the holocaust is an actual fact

My religious belief and yours are based on faith, making it open season to mockery I guess.
We should pray to God for him to open these peoples hearts and see his truth.
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Muezzin
02-20-2006, 08:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
the holocaust is an actual fact
Well, Muhammad (peace be upon him) was an actual person. :) Sure, these pictures painted a false picture, but if we go down that road, holocaust denial is painting a false picture of what really happened. They're no less offensive though.

My religious belief and yours are based on faith, making it open season to mockery I guess.
That doesn't make it right. Continuing akulion's point, I do not agree with homosexuality - this does not mean I go out and blatantly disrespect and offend people who choose to lead such a lifestyle. Why? Because it would be socially wrong for me to do that, I would be behaving like a complete jerk, and would deserve what was coming to me.

We should pray to God for him to open these peoples hearts and see his truth.
I agree.
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Nicola
02-20-2006, 08:52 PM
Well, Muhammad (peace be upon him) was an actual person. Sure, these pictures painted a false picture, but if we go down that road, holocaust denial is painting a false picture of what really happened. They're no less offensive though
Of course Muhammad was an actual person, so was Jesus...but our belief and love for these people in what they taught us is 'faith'...not actual fact!

And it will not be proven fact to the world until judgement day!


the holocaust we know happened.

So if people want to deny and mock Jesus, though it cuts me inside and breaks my heart that they should do that to my Lord...it is their choice and I must respect that, I feel and pray for these people...because of their misguided ways it's going to lead them to eternal hell.

That doesn't make it right. Continuing akulion's point, I do not agree with homosexuality - this does not mean I go out and blatantly disrespect and offend people who choose to lead such a lifestyle. Why? Because it would be socially wrong for me to do that, I would be behaving like a complete jerk, and would deserve what was coming to me.
No ignorance and bad mannering are never right...and retailating back is not right either...we should offer the other cheek to these people and show our love.
homosexuality is sinful..imo it should be banned all together....they should not be-given rights as a married couple or allowed to marry, either adopt children etc, it is disgusting to God..they must be made to know that what they do is totally wrong and will lead them to hell.
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akulion
02-20-2006, 09:04 PM
Of course Muhammad was an actual person, so was Jesus...but our belief and love for these people in what they taught us is 'faith'...not actual fact!
Not according to Archeology!
There is not a single shred of proof that proves the existance of Jesus.

His exstance is actually based on faith - that i can truly say.

Even the shroud of Jesus which the vatican held on to was disproven through carbon dating. Furthermore the Bible is not recognized as the work of Jesus but rather Paul, Peter, Mathew, Mark etc...

As for Prophet Mohammed(sa) his artifacts not only exist in many museums around the world but also have been carbon dated to verify them.

This statement though may shock you but it is a question which I saw 2 atheist men asking and holding a whole group of Christians missionaries in total paralysis.

All the asked was "Can you provide us with one single proof from archeology or history that Jesus actually existed?"

Surprisingly even the pastor amongst them couldnt debate them..he kept talking about "its obivious - we are the proof"

So they argued, "Star wars fan exist so does that mean Yoda exists?"

it was a funny argument but honestly I have never seen a debate end with such speed ever before!
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knuckles
02-20-2006, 09:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by akulion
Not according to Archeology!
There is not a single shred of proof that proves the existance of Jesus.

His exstance is actually based on faith - that i can truly say.

Even the shroud of Jesus which the vatican held on to was disproven through carbon dating. Furthermore the Bible is not recognized as the work of Jesus but rather Paul, Peter, Mathew, Mark etc...

As for Prophet Mohammed(sa) his artifacts not only exist in many museums around the world but also have been carbon dated to verify them.

This statement though may shock you but it is a question which I saw 2 atheist men asking and holding a whole group of Christians missionaries in total paralysis.

All the asked was "Can you provide us with one single proof from archeology or history that Jesus actually existed?"

Surprisingly even the pastor amongst them couldnt debate them..he kept talking about "its obivious - we are the proof"

So they argued, "Star wars fan exist so does that mean Yoda exists?"

it was a funny argument but honestly I have never seen a debate end with such speed ever before!
Wait are you denying Jesus didn't exist? Isn't that blasphemy considering Jesus was mentioned as prophet in the Qu'ran. Oh by the way they have Jesus burial shroud as proof he existed.
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akulion
02-20-2006, 09:24 PM
Wait are you denying Jesus didn't exist? Isn't that blasphemy considering Jesus was mentioned as prophet in the Qu'ran. Oh by the way they have Jesus burial shroud as proof he existed.
I already said the shroud was proved false through carbon dating
this is very old news now I remember seeing the program about it on either Discovery or history channel (cant remember which )

I do believe in Jesus's existance based on belief in the Quran

However if i was athiest (God Forbid) then I wouldnt find any reason to believe in him at all without any existant proof
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akulion
02-20-2006, 09:28 PM
Oh and I just found the Article about the shroud too on BBC >>> ARTICLE CLICK HERE
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imaad_udeen
02-20-2006, 09:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by akulion
I already said the shroud was proved false through carbon dating
this is very old news now I remember seeing the program about it on either Discovery or history channel (cant remember which )

I do believe in Jesus's existance based on belief in the Quran

However if i was athiest (God Forbid) then I wouldnt find any reason to believe in him at all without any existant proof
The Holy Quran is, indeed, all the proof needed. :D
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Trumble
02-20-2006, 09:38 PM
I don't think it can be considered "double standards".

Taking those countries together, many millions of lives were lost in the holocaust, and an event like that makes a huge impact on the national psyche. Those same countries have no great Islamic tradition, and to the vast majority of their population offending muslims will not be seen as anywhere near as significant. I'd also point out, at the risk of being shouted down that the Holocause was responsible for far more than 'mere' offence. Personally I don't see how any offensive can be equated to the murder of millions of people.
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akulion
02-20-2006, 09:44 PM
Well Trumble you have to understand that the Muslims love the Prophet more than even their families or themselves.

So it was great great offence for the people.
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Nicola
02-20-2006, 09:45 PM
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billc...discover2.html
Even the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the reign of Tiberius, was executed by crucifixion under the prefect Pontius Pilate and continued to have followers after his death.{1}



we still believe on faith alone...be it Mohammad or Jesus.
You cannot prove Muhammed actually was receiving his messages from Gabriel nor I that Jesus is the son of God...God incarnate infact.
Both are based on faith alone.
And this kind of faith causes mocking and ridicule...by non believers.

like you said yourself...unless the koran mentioned Jesus you would not believe in him either...yes I might find that an isult to Jesus...but it is your opinion and I must honour that.
like we must honour people and what they think of Muhammeds kind of life and teachings.
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Nicola
02-20-2006, 09:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by imaad_udeen
The Holy Quran is, indeed, all the proof needed. :D

it may be proof enough for you...like the bible is proof enough for me...

but infact it is only faith not fact :)

because both of us cannot be right.
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akulion
02-20-2006, 09:54 PM
But thats the thing Science never takes Religious insight into account since science and religion dont mix

Since your article is from a Christian site and prespective it would be rejected on the basis of religious bias by Sociologists and Archeologists

We have to question our beliefs.

As for the Quran being the Truth I questioned it many times to the extent that I came up with questions in my mind that if i would have voiced in public people would have called me a "non muslim"

however I recieved the answers to them all through research.
The Quran can be verified as being the word of God if one researches its many miracles some Proofs in relation to science

However even after seeing the truth in front of their eyes if people deny - then there is nothing left to do.
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Sis786
02-21-2006, 09:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I don't think it can be considered "double standards".

Taking those countries together, many millions of lives were lost in the holocaust, and an event like that makes a huge impact on the national psyche. Those same countries have no great Islamic tradition, and to the vast majority of their population offending muslims will not be seen as anywhere near as significant. I'd also point out, at the risk of being shouted down that the Holocause was responsible for far more than 'mere' offence. Personally I don't see how any offensive can be equated to the murder of millions of people.
The double standars lie here, That by saying that the Holocaust was a myth, is to offend the people that were somehow effected by this. Byt saying that these people did not really die in this manner, and another is that seeing the majority of people that dies were jews in a way it would be offending the jewsih people.

The cartoons on Muhammed pbhu offened a whole nation a quarter of the worlds population. Poured petrol on a already lit fire. The directly offened the religion of Islam. The cartoons were a way of abusing and insulting every living muslim no matter where they are.

Yes millons of lives were lost during the holocaust BUT lets not forget the now and here holocasut and thats the hundreds and thousands of poeple dying in Palestine, Chechyna, Afghan and iraq lets not forget whats here NOW on our door step. What happened has happened and yes it was evil and its come to pass BUT we should learn from that and try and stop that happening again YET here we are allowing the same to happen and why beacuse its no longer Jews its the Muslims.

NOW i cant even show happiness for the fighters against such evil as i would be breaking the "Gloryfying Terrosim Law", Well Tony can shove his law where the sun dont shine!!
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aakhirah
02-21-2006, 09:44 AM
:sl:

'Free speech' in trouble.

"Faman shaaa-a fal-yu'min wa shaaa-a fal-yakfur..."

:w:

A.
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aakhirah
02-21-2006, 09:52 AM
[QUOTE=aakhirah;190183]
"Faman shaaa-a fal-yu'min wa shaaa-a fal-yakfur..."
QUOTE]

"...wa man shaaa-a fal-yakfur..."

(Sorry, typo!)
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justahumane
02-21-2006, 09:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by akulion
Well Trumble you have to understand that the Muslims love the Prophet more than even their families or themselves.

So it was great great offence for the people.
To correct U brother, muslims are supposed to love the holy prophet more than their own families and themselves. But taking into consideration, how muslims (majority of) around the world are acting unislamically, we can come to the right conclusion. Muslims are responsible for giving the holy prophet, a bad name. Muslims have strayed from the path of sunnah and holy quran. Munafiqeen is better word for them seeing the way they have violated message of holy quran and sunnah. Even we kafirs are better than those munafiqeen according to ALLAH.

Plz let me know if I m wrong and why?

Thanks.
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aakhirah
02-21-2006, 10:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
But taking into consideration, how muslims (majority of) around the world are acting unislamically, we can come to the right conclusion. Muslims are responsible for giving the holy prophet, a bad name.
I beg to differ. If Muslims behave unislamically, how can Islam be to blame? It is stupid and foolish for non-Muslims to justify mocking our beloved Prophet (Peace be upon him) through the actions of (a few) misguided Muslims. Furthermore, if Muslims act unislamically then they are going against his teachings, so how can that be regarded as giving our Prophet (Peace be upon him) a bad name? This is only ignorance on the part of the claimant of this bizarre theory.

And, by the way, a munaafiq is a person (a kaafir in actual fact) who pretends to be Muslim in the eyes of people (though rejecting), not simply a sinner who has transgressed the limits of Qur-aan and Sunnah!

A.
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justahumane
02-21-2006, 10:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aakhirah
I beg to differ. If Muslims behave unislamically, how can Islam be to blame? It is stupid and foolish for non-Muslims to justify mocking our beloved Prophet (Peace be upon him) through the actions of (a few) misguided Muslims. Furthermore, if Muslims act unislamically then they are going against his teachings, so how can that be regarded as giving our Prophet (Peace be upon him) a bad name? This is only ignorance on the part of the claimant of this bizarre theory.

And, by the way, a munaafiq is a person (a kaafir in actual fact) who pretends to be Muslim in the eyes of people (though rejecting), not simply a sinner who has transgressed the limits of Qur-aan and Sunnah!

A.
Brother I haven blamed islam, but muslims who have abandoned laws of ALLAH worldwide and prefer man made laws. I dont justify any foolish or wicked act of anyone. Muslims gives impression that they are true servent of ALLAH, someone who submit themselves to the will of GOD. While in fact they dont. this makes them munafiqeens. And for ur kind information, munafiqeens are supposed do transgress the limits of holy quran and sunnah. same way as today's majority of muslims doing, and u too have accepted.

Once again, I havent blamed islam but muslims. I think that I have much respect for the holy prophet than most muslims.

Thanks.
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Sis786
02-21-2006, 11:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Brother I haven blamed islam, but muslims who have abandoned laws of ALLAH worldwide and prefer man made laws. I dont justify any foolish or wicked act of anyone. Muslims gives impression that they are true servent of ALLAH, someone who submit themselves to the will of GOD. While in fact they dont. this makes them munafiqeens. And for ur kind information, munafiqeens are supposed do transgress the limits of holy quran and sunnah. same way as today's majority of muslims doing, and u too have accepted.

Once again, I havent blamed islam but muslims. I think that I have much respect for the holy prophet than most muslims.

Thanks.
Yes you are right that some people have taken this matter and have done to justice. But lets not forget the majority of muslims that have held peaceful demonstrations. In London on Saturday almost 60,000.00 muslims marches peacefully and the media showed this for like 2 secs on the news yet 50 people held a violent march and this was headline news for days.

Dont always believe what the media have show you!
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justahumane
02-21-2006, 02:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sis786
Yes you are right that some people have taken this matter and have done to justice. But lets not forget the majority of muslims that have held peaceful demonstrations. In London on Saturday almost 60,000.00 muslims marches peacefully and the media showed this for like 2 secs on the news yet 50 people held a violent march and this was headline news for days.

Dont always believe what the media have show you!
I m not talking about those protest sister, I m talking in general terms. Cant u see muslim hypocricy around the world vis a vis holy quran? Is holy quran only for reciting and parroting? or fighting over it? or its meant to follow??????

Its muslims who have failed to show to the world that what islam is all about. And u cant keep accusing non muslims for not understanding islam. I think lion share of musilim's bashing should be of their own ppls who have proven hypocrites by abandoning the commands of ALLAH.

Further I dont need media to know muslims, I m from India. I have grown up among muslims. I know muslims are extremely good ppls, I have muslims as my family members, but sad to say that all those whome I personally find praiseworthy have strayed far away from their religion. They have selected what is good for them and left what they feel in their heart is otherwise. So in my opinion MAJORITY of muslims in the world, be it good or bad, have left the true path of their religion. If U dont agree than plz let me know why?

I often wonder how much happy ALLAH would be feeling by seeing actions of the ummah who claim that they submit to HIS will.

Thanks.
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akulion
02-21-2006, 03:54 PM
To correct U brother, muslims are supposed to love the holy prophet more than their own families and themselves. But taking into consideration, how muslims (majority of) around the world are acting unislamically, we can come to the right conclusion. Muslims are responsible for giving the holy prophet, a bad name. Muslims have strayed from the path of sunnah and holy quran. Munafiqeen is better word for them seeing the way they have violated message of holy quran and sunnah. Even we kafirs are better than those munafiqeen according to ALLAH.
You are partly correct I would say. The reason being that it is true that many Muslims do not act according to Islam, however the media also plays an important role in further putting such things into the limelight more than other things.

For example: An Egyptian man kills someone in Rgypt, he is announced on the news as : A Muslim Radical Extremist
On the other hand: A Christian guy could go nuts and kill 12 boys in a school shooting and be portrayed as "A man in Illinois"
Real life examples would include: Timothy Mcbae vs Any of the named "Muslim" terrorists

Apart from this we also have history against us. Not to say that it is our actions that weigh down against us, but rather it is the bias of the historians from the past who have widely spread the idea in the west that "Islam was spread by the sword". Furthermore we dont get to hear about Islamic inventions or contributions in history, why? Once again it is bias against the Muslims. If you visit Muslim Heritage website you will see exactly how great an impact the Islamic world had on the world in the past.

So All that being said, you are correct in the parts that you say, however the entire blame cannot be pinned on to the Muslims themselves. And to get a wholesome picture we must take into account the other factors as well.

Salam Alaikum
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Malsidabym
02-21-2006, 04:01 PM
I would say that any time a person or people talk about something different from what they are, they will add a description. For example, if a black man living in a mostly black neighborhood has a problem with a white guy, he will say to his friends " this white guy over there ..." So when western media from majority christian population countries report on news involving muslims, it is natural to describe as muslim. At the same time when reporting about Tim Mcveigh to leave out 'christian'. In muslim media it is the same. If a christian is being reported on it is more likely to report him as such, while omitting 'muslim' about muslims. Peace to all.
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HeiGou
02-21-2006, 04:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by akulion
You are partly correct I would say. The reason being that it is true that many Muslims do not act according to Islam, however the media also plays an important role in further putting such things into the limelight more than other things.

For example: An Egyptian man kills someone in Rgypt, he is announced on the news as : A Muslim Radical Extremist
On the other hand: A Christian guy could go nuts and kill 12 boys in a school shooting and be portrayed as "A man in Illinois"
Real life examples would include: Timothy Mcbae vs Any of the named "Muslim" terrorists
The difference is still one of motivation. When most Arab terrorists were not Islamists, but Arab socialists or assorted nationalists, they were not called Muslim Radical Extremists. They were called the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine or whatever. Now that most terror is caused by people who think they are good Muslims, it is sensible to describe their motivation. Are you denying that the motivation for, say, the 7-7 bombs was a form of radical Islam? If someone who happens to be a Muslim commits a crime, no one says it is Islam. But if he does so because he think that Islam tells him to, then it is called Islamic. Has Christianity ever told anyone to kill 12 boys in a school shooting? Timothy McVey is an excellent example - it was a mixture of White Supremacy and minimal government that made him do what he did. Not Christianity. Why describe it as Christian?

Apart from this we also have history against us. Not to say that it is our actions that weigh down against us, but rather it is the bias of the historians from the past who have widely spread the idea in the west that "Islam was spread by the sword".
Which depends on what you mean by that.

Furthermore we dont get to hear about Islamic inventions or contributions in history, why? Once again it is bias against the Muslims. If you visit Muslim Heritage website you will see exactly how great an impact the Islamic world had on the world in the past.
This is flatly not true. Western media producers have produced many documentaries that are full of praise for Islam. One example would be Bloom, Jonathan M. and Blair, Sheila, Islam: a thousand years of faith and power, New York: TV Books, 2000. ISBN 157500092X. There was also a favorable chapter on Islam in Attenborough, David, The first Eden: the Mediterranean world and man, London: Collins, 1987 ISBN 0002198274.

Now compare this with the Muslim world - where is there a single book produced in the Muslim world that is even fair, much less supportive of, Byzantium? That does not insult Christianity and Judaism much less Animism?

There is a blatant double standard here and it is not the West's problem.
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akulion
02-21-2006, 04:15 PM
Well with respect to your opinion, I would disagree. The US is a melting pot as we all know, it is founded on the principles of a mulitcultural environment. Many countries such as the UK, Australia, etc have taken after that example. Therefore I believe it is highly insensitive of the media to single out one group from the others based on their religion. That being said we must also take into consideration that the US or UK are not Christian states but a secular ones. Thus in my opinion for CNN or BBC to make this distinction is actually wrong.
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akulion
02-21-2006, 04:40 PM
The difference is still one of motivation. When most Arab terrorists were not Islamists, but Arab socialists or assorted nationalists, they were not called Muslim Radical Extremists. They were called the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine or whatever. Now that most terror is caused by people who think they are good Muslims, it is sensible to describe their motivation. Are you denying that the motivation for, say, the 7-7 bombs was a form of radical Islam? If someone who happens to be a Muslim commits a crime, no one says it is Islam. But if he does so because he think that Islam tells him to, then it is called Islamic. Has Christianity ever told anyone to kill 12 boys in a school shooting? Timothy McVey is an excellent example - it was a mixture of White Supremacy and minimal government that made him do what he did. Not Christianity. Why describe it as Christian?
If this was an Issue of motivation then that would mean that it is Islam which is motivating them or in other words telling them to do these things. Islam does not preach the killing of innocent people nor does it support terrorism as a means of accomplishing objectives. The Prophet (s) himself said once,
"If you see your brother opressed help him, and when you see your brother opressing help him"
One of the companions asked, "O Prophet we can understand how to help him when he is opressed but how will we help him when he is opressing?"
The Prophet replied, "Stop him from opressing"

But with the messages the media gives out to the people gives a general feeling that in fact it is Islam and Muslims whose way of life is violence and bloodshed. In my opinion media should be more responsible in their statements. So the same argument you are giving in defence of Christianity also applies to Islam. Does Islam tell people to go around killing people? NO!
So the blame rather than be pinned on Islam should be pinned on the individuals.

Which depends on what you mean by that.
As we know in the past the western world was predominantly overshadowed by Christian/Church doctrine. As Europe started to Emerge as a power over time, one cannot deny the fact that the idea which was, and to some extent still is, propogated was that Islam was spread by the sword.
History now becomes more accurate over time as we see secular sources doing the research. One example I will give you is of General Custers Last stand.
Previously it was believed it was avaliant and brave last stand. Archeological digs have actually revealed that it was nothing more than a cowardly retreat where Americans even shot other Americans in confusion and in chaos. Has the Us changed this in its History? No, why? The statement in reply to this reseacrh was, "A nation needs its heroes" - I ask, even if they were fake?
Same way is the case of Islam being misportrayed through history, only now do we see the emergence of movies like "Islam: Empre of Faith" which shows the reality of Islam and Muslim Empire. Yet these are very few out of many which are against Islam.

This is flatly not true. Western media producers have produced many documentaries that are full of praise for Islam. One example would be Bloom, Jonathan M. and Blair, Sheila, Islam: a thousand years of faith and power, New York: TV Books, 2000. ISBN 157500092X. There was also a favorable chapter on Islam in Attenborough, David, The first Eden: the Mediterranean world and man, London: Collins, 1987 ISBN 0002198274.
Now compare this with the Muslim world - where is there a single book produced in the Muslim world that is even fair, much less supportive of, Byzantium? That does not insult Christianity and Judaism much less Animism?
There is a blatant double standard here and it is not the West's problem.
On the contorary - this is once again an assumption that you make due to the influence of the misconceptions spread about Islam. If you do get the chance please do watch the movie called Islam, Empire of Faith - it has many references to Islamic scholars and historians who paid much tribute to the works of their non Muslim counter parts. Also please have a look at the website I gave you "Muslim Heritage" you will see that the Muslims scholars nor historians denied their non muslim counterparts the glory they deserved. Yet do we see the same in the Christian world? I think not...

The destruction of Jeuresulem under Christan rule and its Thriving under Muslim rule...what is portrayed? Christians as liberators and Muslims as supressors.

The enlightnment of Spain under Muslims and the decay of Spain under Christian rule (prior to occupation) - What is portrayed? Muslims were savages and Christians were cultured.

Europe was still using Parchment and churches were LUCKY to have to the most 3 or 4 books. While Muslim households contained more books written on PAPER (great tech of the times). Yet what do we see in media/movies? West was so so advanced in the middle ages and the Arabs lived in tents.

Paper Industry - started by Muslims using Chinese Tech - Attributed to the west in general.
Mass Production - started by Muslims but attributed to Henry Ford
Electricity - Discovered by Ancient Persians - attributed to (Forgot his name, sorry)_- Edison I think
Modern Science (seperating science from religion) started by Muslims - attributed to the Rennisance
Windmills - Invented by Egyptians - Attributed to Holland
And there are various such examples.
And then ofcourse my example of General Custer...

History is written by victors - a famous quote by someone.
Indeed it does seem this way to me, a biased history written to glorify the west a bit too much.
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HeiGou
02-21-2006, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by akulion
If this was an Issue of motivation then that would mean that it is Islam which is motivating them or in other words telling them to do these things. Islam does not preach the killing of innocent people nor does it support terrorism as a means of accomplishing objectives. The Prophet (s) himself said once,
"If you see your brother opressed help him, and when you see your brother opressing help him"
One of the companions asked, "O Prophet we can understand how to help him when he is opressed but how will we help him when he is opressing?"
The Prophet replied, "Stop him from opressing"
Except you are operating with an unusual definition of motivation. Islam as you, and I assume most people around here, does not call for the killing of all those innocent people. But that is irrelevant because their motivation is not your motivation. The terrorists, presumably, believe in a different sort of Islam. Their Islam tells them to do what they do. Now I am not taking sides on what sort of Islam is "true" or "truer", I am just pointing out that these people do what they do because they think God wants them to.

But with the messages the media gives out to the people gives a general feeling that in fact it is Islam and Muslims whose way of life is violence and bloodshed. In my opinion media should be more responsible in their statements. So the same argument you are giving in defence of Christianity also applies to Islam. Does Islam tell people to go around killing people? NO!
So the blame rather than be pinned on Islam should be pinned on the individuals.
You are missing my subtle point - it is not that Islam tells them to do things. It is that some Muslims think that Islam tells them to do things. I agree that there is an impression that the media gives out that Islam and Muslims have a way of life that is full of violence of bloodshed. But to be honest, so does this website. It is the dominance of discussions of violence and bloodshed, the lack of condemnation, and the ignoring of non-violence peaceful aspects of Islam that is the cause - but that applies equally to the BBC and this site.

As we know in the past the western world was predominantly overshadowed by Christian/Church doctrine. As Europe started to Emerge as a power over time, one cannot deny the fact that the idea which was, and to some extent still is, propogated was that Islam was spread by the sword.
History now becomes more accurate over time as we see secular sources doing the research.
Except the picture of Islam "spread by the sword" is more complex and nuanced than it used to be, but basically it is still more or less true. It is less true for Christians and Jews than animists, but without the violence, there would have been few converts to Islam.

On the contorary - this is once again an assumption that you make due to the influence of the misconceptions spread about Islam. If you do get the chance please do watch the movie called Islam, Empire of Faith - it has many references to Islamic scholars and historians who paid much tribute to the works of their non Muslim counter parts.
Sure, it is the work of Bloom and Blair as I cited. I have seen it actually.

Also please have a look at the website I gave you "Muslim Heritage" you will see that the Muslims scholars nor historians denied their non muslim counterparts the glory they deserved. Yet do we see the same in the Christian world? I think not...
And yet Islam Empire of Faith was a product of the West. Where is the Islamic equivalent?

The destruction of Jeuresulem under Christan rule and its Thriving under Muslim rule...what is portrayed? Christians as liberators and Muslims as supressors.
Where is this shown in any modern work? On the contrary the few good things that the Christians did are ignored - no one mentions the fact that Muslim sources say that the Christians treated their Muslim peasants better than the Muslim rulers did.

The enlightnment of Spain under Muslims and the decay of Spain under Christian rule (prior to occupation) - What is portrayed? Muslims were savages and Christians were cultured.
This is really bad - where does anyone say this or has said it at any time in the last 150 years?

Europe was still using Parchment and churches were LUCKY to have to the most 3 or 4 books. While Muslim households contained more books written on PAPER (great tech of the times). Yet what do we see in media/movies? West was so so advanced in the middle ages and the Arabs lived in tents.
Such as?

Paper Industry - started by Muslims using Chinese Tech - Attributed to the west in general.
Where does anyone claim this was an invention of the West?

Mass Production - started by Muslims but attributed to Henry Ford
This is nonsense. The Muslims did not invent the Factory method.

Electricity - Discovered by Ancient Persians - attributed to (Forgot his name, sorry)_- Edison I think
Again this is silly. The Greeks and Persian discovered static electricity. But Europeans discovered its relation to magnetism. Muslims played no role at all.

Modern Science (seperating science from religion) started by Muslims - attributed to the Rennisance
Nor did Muslims do that - they would be in trouble if they did. And besides there are dozens of article around here denying the Muslim scientists were secular.

Windmills - Invented by Egyptians - Attributed to Holland
Source please.

Compare this with the Islamic world - where is there any positive reference to Byzantium?
Reply

akulion
02-21-2006, 05:11 PM
Oh man I am too tired to respond for the moment

As for sources you will find them all on either: Muslim Heritage website
OR
Islam Empire of Faith movie (PBS Production)

The reason you may find this unbelieveable is the same reason that I found it absolutely astonishing when I watched that movie to discover all these facts.

As for the Electricity bit - The Muslims did not play any role true - but the Persians were using batteries before anyone else was, yet it is attributed to the west. This can be verified from this site: Baghdad Batteries

The Paper Industry founded by the Muslims was the first ever mass production mechanism ever instated to the extent that it led to the cheapning of books and paper and it became commonly used.

I would not deny that other civilizations also invented things - but I believe credit should be given where due. So you see the basic point I am making is that a lot of credit which is due to other civilizations in not rightfully given to them
Reply

sumay28
02-21-2006, 05:21 PM
how many of us read this article and thought... "they didn't have to put him in jail for that"?
Reply

Kittygyal
02-21-2006, 05:23 PM
me lolz :)
Reply

Trumble
02-21-2006, 09:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by knuckles
"offense"

Only in the ghastly distorted version of English you Americans have ;)

By Englishmen, for such I am, its spelt with a "c".
Reply

Muezzin
02-21-2006, 09:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Only in the ghastly distorted version of English you Americans have ;)

By Englishmen, for such I am, its spelt with a "c".
'It's.'

You so hate me now. :p ;)
Reply

Trumble
02-21-2006, 11:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
'It's.'
First the spelling police, now the grammar police! :hiding:

You are quite right, of course.
Reply

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