terrorism and hijab

[sh78]

:sl:
I am a final year undergraduate who is currently writing a dissertation on 'terrorism, fanaticism and their effect on the Hijab" (although this is not my final title but aspects i will be looking at), i would like to ask sisters their views on the treatment of hijab wearing
women in Britain inlight of recent events? I would be grateful and extremely appreciative of your responses.

:w:

[Tasneem]

Ok inshallah i can do it

[nihma333]

Hijab has never been a problen for me. Pre or post 9/11.
Alhamdulilah Allah is the most merciful.

[sweetangel16]

yes me too higab makes me feel comfortavle and confdent and i know how to match and look presentable... love it :D

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[abdul Majid]

i just wanna say, these too words are farrrrrrr apart from one another !!!

[nihma333]

exactly...preach!

[Hashim_507]

Hijab is not terrorism, attackers go against hijab or harming sisters wearing hijab is called terrorism.

[Sharifa]

:sl:
Hijab had absolutely nothing to do with terrorism, Americans usually associate hijab with terrorism because they think women who wear the hijaab is "oppressed" my men i.e. terrorism. But the hijaab is a ayah sent to us my Allah SWA that we may cover our selves in order to be modest and pure. It’s completely our own choice and not forced on us. So after 9/11 being a Muslimah who lives in the U.S I’ve been more strong in wearing my hijab proud so I may identify myself and in return I get the respect I deserve. Hijab is not just what you where over your head but your personality, who you are and what makes you a Muslim. I hope I made sense:sister: walaho alum.

:w:

[sh78]

assalamu alaikum

thank you for your replies, i just want to add that there have been sisters that have been attacked as they are an easy 'muslim target' and would they be so much in the limelight if it were not for radicals and fanatics.

w/salam

[Snowflake]

The sister asked what effects has terrorism had on them wearing hijaab, not that hijab is linked to terrorism.

Alhumdullilah, I've never had a problem with wearing hijaab. I did expect to, but I found white men and women still smiled at me, held doors open in shops etc. After the london bombings I expected to be treated differently. But I'm pleased to say I wasn't. Not all westerners are islamophobic. There are some really nice people, especially who live in heavily populated muslim communities and realise that we are not all terrorists with dirty tricks up our sleeves. They have the advantage of seeing what muslims are really like and not how the media portrays us. Bless.

[Snowflake]

assalamu alaikum

thank you for your replies, i just want to add that there have been sisters that have been attacked as they are an easy 'muslim target' and would they be so much in the limelight if it were not for radicals and fanatics.

w/salam

:sl:
I live in an area of Birmingham where there is a large population of muslims. The non-muslims here who deal with muslims on a daily basis, be it professionally, socially or otherwise, realise that we are not terrorists but just ordinary people going about our daily business. As far as I know, no muslim has been attacked by any non muslim living within my area. They know better than to believe everything the media says. Only those who don't wish associate with muslims, remain ignorant of this fact. And it's mainly these people who are affected by the media portrays. That's my experience anyway.

:w:

[nihma333]

[QUOTE=Muslimah_Sis;192886]

Alhumdullilah, I've never had a problem with wearing hijaab. I did expect to, but I found white men and women still smiled at me, held doors open in shops etc. QUOTE]

Interesting statement...

[sh78]

Assalamu alaikum
Thank you so very much for all the replies i have a few more direct questions if you would not mind answering them, and i just want to specify that this is all for research purposes. What do you think people think when they see a muslim woman in the hijab? Do you think the hijab is an important aspect of your identity? Where would you be without it?
w/salam

[Snowflake]

nihma333;192950
Interesting statement

In which way? Does it sound unbelievable? :P

[nishom]

I dont think many people would eqate hijab with terrorism in this country as women are free to choose what they want to wear. With choice being exercised, therefore, hijab becomes liberating as opposed to oppressive.
It is not hijab that should be equaed with terorism but leaders such as the Taliban who force women to wear it and the French who stop them from earing it. This is oppression.

[nihma333]

In which way? Does it sound unbelievable? :P

No it's just that I don't think that only white people are responsible for that.

[mualimaah]

salaam sisters

i am from east london where ththe majoraty of the popullation is asians. But i started going to work a few weeks ago b4 that i used to pray at a daru oloom so i hardly went out. but as sson as i started going to work my Hijaab problems started. i got called USAMA BIN LADEN at one point in avery crowded place . which did embaress me because of the people giving me looks but inside i felt happy because i got called the persons name who is looked upon in the muslim world.
This was just one incidentb there have been more but not so bad . MYdriving instucter has a problem with my hijaab is well but i try and ignore her Alhamdullilah i have stayed stuck to wearing my hijaab and im not going to let anybody make me take it of either. Just thought i'd let you know that there are people out there who dislike hijaab and niqaab and would do anything to degrade you.
wasalaam

[Umm Yoosuf]

Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatulaahi Wa Barakatuh.


After the 9/11 as a Muslim woman I happen to stick out from the crowd and many people either in uni or on trains, buses etc are fascinated by it i.e. Hijab… Some are really surprised and just stare lol. With my little warm smile …they ask the question many people ask: "Why do you cover your head?".
Why must I cover? Because Allah has commanded me to do so:
"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed..." (Qur'an 33:59)

The Hijab is my identity, my badge and my protection. I am far from been oppressed! Why should I have to expose my body to everyone? My body is my own space, my own business. No stranger has a right to see it. I am evaluated for my intelligence and skills not for looks and sexuality. So you see I don’t have to dress to kill.

The Hijab should not be associated with terrorism; in fact it has nothing to do with it. The Hijab is a simple act of faith.

What do you think people think when they see a muslim woman in the hijab? Do you think the hijab is an important aspect of your identity? Where would you be without it?

I can’t speak for everybody. How about, you ask some of the non-Muslim’s member’s.

[bezimany 071]

when i was at college i was part of MSA (Muslim Students Association), there were always few brothers designated to walk sisters home if we were coming back home late at night from the masjid, or some organized event......we didnt babysit sisters, but we felt like its better to be safe than sorry since many different types of people used to get jumped on campus at night.....the people who used to get jumped and robbed were mostly non muslim women, but there were some men too, and 9 times outta 10 they were drunk......

Sisters never asked us to do this for them, however with their permission it was something that we as MSA decided to do......we took care of each other all the time

honestly, i look back and reminisce, and i miss that "little ummah"....it was so nice man, we had brothers and sisters from india, pakistan, africa, malasia, blacks and whites from all over usa, various arabic countries, and bosnia....and during ramadan we used to be packed in the kichen of our campus's masjid and we would prepare keftas and all sorts of other food for the next day.....we would all serve food durigng ramadhan, and always hang out afterwards sharing all types of islamic stories .....wallahi....i felt like a little boy around a camp fire at times......i miss those days soo much.....i cant wait for ramadan

p.s.
sorry to get off the topic, i just wanted to share this the post eminded me of it
ma salaama
bez

[alishba]

very true.i wear a hijab and nothing can tempt me not to wear it.

[nihma333]

i wear a hijab and nothing can tempt me not to wear it.

EXACTLY!.... I think that it is more tempting to wear hijab than to not wear it. Hijab is such a protection. Think about it, men are less inclined to view you as a commodity, or an item for sale. It is seriously one of the greatest protections for women.

Peace,
Naimah

[HeiGou]

EXACTLY!.... I think that it is more tempting to wear hijab than to not wear it. Hijab is such a protection. Think about it, men are less inclined to view you as a commodity, or an item for sale. It is seriously one of the greatest protections for women.

Surely that is not the way us kafir men view women without the hijab. After all if they are not wearing the hijab they might be free, no?

And more to the point, they must be persuaded, not forced by their fathers. Western women get married without their husband's family paying large sums of money to their Fathers-in-law. Whatever Islam demands. Who is being bought and sold here? Not Western women.

If you feel the hijab makes you feel protected I am all for that. Good for you. But do not misunderstand the nature of Western society. We do not treat women as commodities. Perhaps that is the problem - if they were valuable how would we treat them?

[Umm Yoosuf]

Surely that is not the way us kafir men view women without the hijab.

Oh really? I can’t say ALL men view women like that but unfortunately most do! What do you do if you want to advertise a bar of chocolate? - strip a woman! How about a car? - Yet another woman! Women in the west are seen as objects. Their appearance is what is judged and their personalities and mind is given no attention. Thus women are chased around for their bodies and physical looks.

After all if they are not wearing the hijab they might be free, no?

I beg to differ. Let’s clear this up first- covering the head is not SIGN OF DEGRADATION or oppression. It is a commandment from Allah. I am pleased to walk down the street wearing my Hijab, my protection and identity with my head up high without hungry wolfs making inappropriate and useless comments. In Islam, a woman is free to be who she is inside, and immuned from being portrayed as sex symbol and lusted after. Islam is far from the western idiology of, 'if you have it, you should flash it!'

And more to the point, they must be persuaded, not forced by their fathers. Western women get married without their husband's family paying large sums of money to their Fathers-in-law. Whatever Islam demands. Who is being bought and sold here? Not Western women.

If you are going to make a statement like this present your evidence. Don’t talk out of your desire.

You are confusing culture with Islam. I think you are talking about the marriage-gift (Mahr) which is a divine injunction. The giving of mahr to the bride by the groom is an essential part of the contract.

The Quran states:

"And give the women their dower as a free gift but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it and enjoy it with right good cheer." (Quran sura 4, aya 4).

In conclusion in a Muslim marriage the groom gives a dowry to the bride, not to her father. This becames her private property to keep or spend, and is not subject to the dictates of her male relatives. Any money she earns or recieves is similarly her very own.

Regards

[HeiGou]

Oh really? I can’t say ALL men view women like that but unfortunately most do! What do you do if you want to advertise a bar of chocolate? - strip a woman! How about a car? - Yet another woman! Women in the west are seen as objects. Their appearance is what is judged and their personalities and mind is given no attention. Thus women are chased around for their bodies and physical looks.

Ahh, now as an object perhaps you can make a case. But women in the West are free in the sense that they are not commodities to be bought and sold. As Muslim men often point out.

It is true that a lot of men treat (or would like to treat) women that way. But then that is not just a Western problem is it? What the West also provides for is a role for women who are not just valued for their bodies and physical looks. It allows, even encourages, women to go to school, to get an education, to work if they want, to write and to think. Western culture is full of female role models as a result. Muslims have to reach back to Aisha to find much in the way of role models. Where are the Nineteenth century Muslima writers like George Sand or Jane Austin? Where are the Twentieth Century Muslima politicians like Margaret Thatcher? It is noticable that Muslim women are usually only important in politics if they are wives, daughters or mothers, not in their own right.

I beg to differ. Let’s clear this up first- covering the head is not SIGN OF DEGRADATION or oppression. It is a commandment from Allah. I am pleased to walk down the street wearing my Hijab, my protection and identity with my head up high without hungry wolfs making inappropriate and useless comments.

Beg to differ over what? I don't think I said it was a sign of degradation or oppression. I am happy to admit that I think it can be - that some women are forced to wear it even though they don't want to. But if you want to, I am all for that.

The problem with blaming the way women dress instead of the way men behave is that your dress is not a solution. You are just throwing your less-carefully dressed sisters to the wolves. Suppose that everyone dressed like you do - do you really think that the women who show the most ear lobe wouldn't get whistled at? Those sorts of men whistle at the girls in skirts because there are girls in skirts. If all women dressed like you they would have no option but to whistle at women dressed like you. And you would have to wear a more extreme form of covering. And then eventually all women would dress like you too. And you would have to wear only black and never show an eye. And once all women did that you would have to lock yourself in your house and never come out. Do you think that it might be better if those sorts of men behaved like civilised people and did not harrass women on the street?

In Islam, a woman is free to be who she is inside, and immuned from being portrayed as sex symbol and lusted after. Islam is far from the western idiology of, 'if you have it, you should flash it!'

That is not entirely true. Men are men and will lust after women. Islamic literature is full of references to beautiful women who dress modestly. They just stress the way she walks or talks or jingles her bracelets. Islam is a long way from that, but perhaps Muslim men are not.

You are confusing culture with Islam. I think you are talking about the marriage-gift (Mahr) which is a divine injunction.

No I am not. I recognise culture when I see it. And you will notice I point out that Muslims do many things regardless of what Islam tells them.

The giving of mahr to the bride by the groom is an essential part of the contract.

The Quran states:

"And give the women their dower as a free gift but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it and enjoy it with right good cheer." (Quran sura 4, aya 4).

In conclusion in a Muslim marriage the groom gives a dowry to the bride, not to her father. This becames her private property to keep or spend, and is not subject to the dictates of her male relatives. Any money she earns or recieves is similarly her very own.

Except in any polygamous society women are going to be in short supply. If a man can legally control who his daughter marries, he can legally hold out for payment. And in Muslim countries the culture tends to demand that men pay their Fathers-in-law on marriage. Women are in short supply so of course they do. Whatever Islam demands.

[nihma333]

Surely that is not the way us kafir men view women without the hijab. After all if they are not wearing the hijab they might be free, no?

And more to the point, they must be persuaded, not forced by their fathers. Western women get married without their husband's family paying large sums of money to their Fathers-in-law. Whatever Islam demands. Who is being bought and sold here? Not Western women.

OOh WOW!!!...How sad:X :X :X

If you feel the hijab makes you feel protected I am all for that. Good for you. But do not misunderstand the nature of Western society. We do not treat women as commodities. Perhaps that is the problem - if they were valuable how would we treat them?

WHat?!?! I don't think that I follow you? ...And YES women are viewed as commodities in the West. Although it's not all women, a great majority are seen as objects and items for sale.

peace,
Naimah

[HeiGou]

OOh WOW!!!...How sad:X :X :X

Really? What is sad?

WHat?!?! I don't think that I follow you? ...And YES women are viewed as commodities in the West. Although it's not all women, a great majority are seen as objects and items for sale.

But if they were objects for sale, how would they be treated? If I owned a valuable Ferrari I would not expose it to public view unless I had to. Gold bars are locked in bank vaults. Jewelry is hidden in safes. If women were treated like commodities in the West, they would be treated as if they were valuable. As it happens women cannot be bought and sold in the West and so they may be objectified, but they are not treated a commodities - they are, in fact, treated as if their monetary value is zero (a fair assumption). A woman's virginity is not a valued commodity that rich men buy and so it is not protected in the West. Can you say the same of Muslim countries?

We have our own problems dealing with the way women are treated, but this is not one of them.

[Andaraawus]

i hope that thios link will help you with your mission ... http://avp.10.forumer.com/viewforum.php?f=6

wasalams

[abdul Majid]

what is sad is you said they'll be free without the hajab, firstly no one forces a female to wear it, second what will she be free to do??? talk to guys more often and fall into sin??? is that your meaning of free??

[ummAbdillah]

salaam
I love wearing my hijaab and I feel protected
when I am wearing it. :statisfie NO one forces me to wear it… its my choice to wear hijaab and I think that hijaab and terrorism have nothing in common!!!!
:)
ma salaam

[Andaraawus]

maybe you have a really colourful Hijab Muslimah ;D

[HeiGou]

what is sad is you said they'll be free without the hajab, firstly no one forces a female to wear it, second what will she be free to do??? talk to guys more often and fall into sin??? is that your meaning of free??

I mean free in the sense that she would have no price. Women are not bought and sold in the West. They have no monetary value.

Plenty of people force women to wear the hijab. Any Muslim website will be full of messages that say things like "I forced my sister to wear the jilbalb and now she loves it". I have not looked here but I bet I could find one such message unless the Mods pull them. There is also more subtle pressure - if everyone treats you like a prostitute if you do not wear one, you will quickly wear one.

That is a limit view of freedom. No that is not my meaning of free.

[abdul Majid]

I mean free in the sense that she would have no price. Women are not bought and sold in the West. They have no monetary value.

Plenty of people force women to wear the hijab. Any Muslim website will be full of messages that say things like "I forced my sister to wear the jilbalb and now she loves it". I have not looked here but I bet I could find one such message unless the Mods pull them. There is also more subtle pressure - if everyone treats you like a prostitute if you do not wear one, you will quickly wear one.

That is a limit view of freedom. No that is not my meaning of free.

dear friend

we all no woman are not bought and sold, i differ with you when you say they have no value, woman have great value and are respected in ISLAM.....

Like i said nobody forces a woman to wear Hajib as the sister has said...

but let me tell you if a brother is telling his sister to wear it, its for her own good, her modesty and she is covered up becuz she is respected....

if a website tells you different, then i dont advise you to beleive everything you hear, becuz it is VERY POSSIBLE YOU ARE HEARING A LIEE !!

[ummAbdillah]

Plenty of people force women to wear the hijab. Any Muslim website will be full of messages that say things like "I forced my sister to wear the jilbalb and now she loves it". I have not looked here but I bet I could find one such message unless the Mods pull them. There is also more subtle pressure - if everyone treats you like a prostitute if you do not wear one, you will quickly wear one.

salaam
where did you get that from... what websites are you on about :?
ma'salaam :)

[HeiGou]

we all no woman are not bought and sold, i differ with you when you say they have no value, woman have great value and are respected in ISLAM.....

They have no monetary value in the West. That is not the same as no value.

The important point, and we seem to have been sidetracked, is that the West does not treat women like commodities. Objects perhaps. But not commodities.

Like i said nobody forces a woman to wear Hajib as the sister has said...

No one in the history of Islam has ever forced a woman to wear the hajib?

you need to tell them when they were young, when my younger sis was at 10 I explained to her about the hijab etc and its importance then about 6 months of discussing I said you cant go out anywhere without hijab on so she put it on, the same was redone with jilbab at 14 and alhamdulillah she loves wearing them.

but let me tell you if a brother is telling his sister to wear it, its for her own good, her modesty and she is covered up becuz she is respected....

I am sure that is the case.

[Umm Yoosuf]

Greets

Ahh, now as an object perhaps you can make a case.

So a woman who is not islamically dressed is seen as an object?! Therefore what is the answer to this?

But women in the West are free in the sense that they are not commodities to be bought and sold. As Muslim men often point out.

I have clearly stated that the women is given money from the man as a gift to HER. This is ISLAMIC. I don’t know where you have heard that in ISLAM money is given to the father. Like I said PRESENT YOUR EVIDENCE.

It is true that a lot of men treat (or would like to treat) women that way. But then that is not just a Western problem is it?

Well, tell me where you can find women been used to sale products in an Islamic country as much as the West?!

What the West also provides for is a role for women who are not just valued for their bodies and physical looks. It allows, even encourages, women to go to school, to get an education, to work if they want, to write and to think.Western culture is full of female role models as a result. Muslims have to reach back to Aisha to find much in the way of role models. Where are the Nineteenth century Muslima writers like George Sand or Jane Austin? Where are the Twentieth Century Muslima politicians like Margaret Thatcher? It is noticable that Muslim women are usually only important in politics if they are wives, daughters or mothers, not in their own right.

You are 100% in your thinking like this because of your naïve Westernized ideology. As I am naïve in my Islamic ideology as I wouldn’t know who on earth George Sand or Jane Austin are as just as you wouldn’t know who Huda Khatabb or bint Muhammad is?!!!

The reason why Muslim women are not in a high ranking statute is because most of them are third world meaning the woman has to think about what to feed her child for the night not how to be the next super woman!

As for Politics we you care to even look at what you talk about you will have found out that in Islam a women can not take up a position of high authority meaning president or something that involves a lot of work for the citizens. Why? Go find out yourself! Why I’m I telling you because you’ll understand it better.

Beg to differ over what? I don't think I said it was a sign of degradation or oppression.
I am happy to admit that I think it can be - that some women are forced to wear it even though they don't want to. But if you want to, I am all for that.

Estimates now state that at least1 in 4 males and 1 in 3 females will have survived some form of sexual abuse before reaching the age of 18! In the UK, that accounts for over 20.83% of the population!

That means in excess of 10,400,000 people in the UK are survivors of sexual abuse.

There is a black sheep in ever community.

You are true that some MUSLIM's mix ISLAM with culture.

Culture of the UK is to drink does that mean that every Christian is a drank? No that is mixing religion with culture.

The problem with blaming the way women dress instead of the way men behave is that your dress is not a solution. You are just throwing your less-carefully dressed sisters to the wolves.

It’s sad that you have no more good points but to go to the extreme to think that men are so sexually driven to a woman.

Islam has one dress code, has one dress code, has one dress code,. And yet again go and find that out yourself!

Suppose that everyone dressed like you do - do you really think that the women who show the most ear lobe wouldn't get whistled at? Those sorts of men whistle at the girls in skirts because there are girls in skirts. If all women dressed like you they would have no option but to whistle at women dressed like you. And you would have to wear a more extreme form of covering. And then eventually all women would dress like you too. And you would have to wear only black and never show an eye. And once all women did that you would have to lock yourself in your house and never come out. Do you think that it might be better if those sorts of men behaved like civilised people and did not harrass women on the street?

Are you talking about in a Islamic country because if every women was dressed like me then I think this would have been a Islamic country….try going to a Islamic country whistling at women and see what happens to you (this is what I mean about you coming up with useless, extreme to the hardcore sad arguments.) Please you use a bit of them brain cells and stop writing essays of useless arguments that can be given to my six year old cousin to answer. But since my religion orders me to educate the message of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to non-believers I would do it in a flash. And I hope you understand me.

Except in any polygamous society women are going to be in short supply. If a man can legally control who his daughter marries, he can legally hold out for payment. And in Muslim countries the culture tends to demand that men pay their Fathers-in-law on marriage. Women are in short supply so of course they do. Whatever Islam demands

.


Islam culture

Culture Islam

Not hard to get confused with.

That is not entirely true. Men are men and will lust after women.

You have a weird view of Muslim men always been sexually driven.

Men are men yeah? Well maybe we should start a new thread about how Western men are viewed.

Reagrds

[firdous]

ameen sis..

[HeiGou]

:Ahh, now as an object perhaps you can make a case.

So a woman who is not islamically dressed is seen as an object?! Therefore what is the answer to this?

I do not mind the claim that some women in the West are seen as objects. That is more or less true. But that they are seen as commodities is not.

:But women in the West are free in the sense that they are not commodities to be bought and sold. As Muslim men often point out.

I have clearly stated that the women is given money from the man as a gift to HER. This is ISLAMIC. I don’t know where you have heard that in ISLAM money is given to the father. Like I said PRESENT YOUR EVIDENCE.

I have clearly said that what Islam says and what Muslims do are different. And that Muslims tend to give money to the bride's father. As long as you demand that I provide evidence for your strawman I will go on ignoring your demands.

Not that I can see how your comment relates to mine.

:It is true that a lot of men treat (or would like to treat) women that way. But then that is not just a Western problem is it?

Well, tell me where you can find women been used to sale products in an Islamic country as much as the West?!

I doubt that you can but you can find much worse in Muslim countries. I will pass on the Islamic bit as there are no Islamic countries, but is this better than a woman choosing to drape herself over a car?

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engasa110072005

Throughout the world, women are victims of violence on a daily basis whether in the context of peace or in conflict. Perpetrators may be officials of the state, armed opposition groups or individuals – including family members. Violence against women and girls in Afghanistan is pervasive; few women are exempt from the reality or threat of violence. Afghan women and girls live with the risk of: abduction and rape by armed individuals; forced marriage; being traded for settling disputes and debts; and face daily discrimination from all segments of society as well as by state officials. Strict societal codes, invoked in the name of tradition and religion, are used as justification for denying women the ability to enjoy their fundamental rights, and have led to the imprisonment of some women, and even to killings. Should they protest by running away, the authorities may imprison them.

It seems that Afghan women are commodities to be bought and sold. Now you can deny that is Islamic if you like and I will not object. But why are you silent about the plight of Afghan women and so harsh about the free choices of kafir ones? Do you think you have your priorities right?

:What the West also provides for is a role for women who are not just valued for their bodies and physical looks. It allows, even encourages, women to go to school, to get an education, to work if they want, to write and to think.Western culture is full of female role models as a result. Muslims have to reach back to Aisha to find much in the way of role models. Where are the Nineteenth century Muslima writers like George Sand or Jane Austin? Where are the Twentieth Century Muslima politicians like Margaret Thatcher? It is noticable that Muslim women are usually only important in politics if they are wives, daughters or mothers, not in their own right.

You are 100% in your thinking like this because of your naïve Westernized ideology. As I am naïve in my Islamic ideology as I wouldn’t know who on earth George Sand or Jane Austin are as just as you wouldn’t know who Huda Khatabb or bint Muhammad is?!!!

But my mind is open and I am willing to learn. Who are Huda Khatabb and bint Muhammed? You mean the British-born living author Huda Khatab? Would it be naive of me to suggest that she has a career because she was born in Britain and not in Afghanistan? Can you see no benefit to kafir society at all even if it is kafir society that allows both Page Three girls and Huda Khatab to work? Can you see that perhaps her Christian upbringing might have contributed something to her abilities and education?

The reason why Muslim women are not in a high ranking statute is because most of them are third world meaning the woman has to think about what to feed her child for the night not how to be the next super woman!

And yet men get to be President - aren't they responsible for feeding their wives' children?

As for Politics we you care to even look at what you talk about you will have found out that in Islam a women can not take up a position of high authority meaning president or something that involves a lot of work for the citizens. Why? Go find out yourself! Why I’m I telling you because you’ll understand it better.

Fine. Then say Islam does not allow female Presidents. I have no problem with that. Just do not claim that Islam encourages women politicians.

:
Beg to differ over what? I don't think I said it was a sign of degradation or oppression.
I am happy to admit that I think it can be - that some women are forced to wear it even though they don't want to. But if you want to, I am all for that.

: Estimates now state that at least1 in 4 males and 1 in 3 females will have survived some form of sexual abuse before reaching the age of 18! In the UK, that accounts for over 20.83% of the population! [

That means in excess of 10,400,000 people in the UK are survivors of sexual abuse.

That is a famous study but one that included being whistled at as a form of sexual abuse. By that standard I doubt there is a Muslima in the world, and not in the Muslim world, who has not been "abused".

There is a black sheep in ever community.

Yours and mine both. Not just mine. Not just yours.

: The problem with blaming the way women dress instead of the way men behave is that your dress is not a solution. You are just throwing your less-carefully dressed sisters to the wolves.

It’s sad that you have no more good points but to go to the extreme to think that men are so sexually driven to a woman.

Hey, I am not the one who can only feel safe in a burka - who is going to the extreme in their views of how sexually driven men, or women for that matter, are?

Islam has one dress code, has one dress code, has one dress code,. And yet again go and find that out yourself!

Then say God wants you to dress this way and leave me out of it. I have no problems with that.

:Suppose that everyone dressed like you do - do you really think that the women who show the most ear lobe wouldn't get whistled at? Those sorts of men whistle at the girls in skirts because there are girls in skirts. If all women dressed like you they would have no option but to whistle at women dressed like you. And you would have to wear a more extreme form of covering. And then eventually all women would dress like you too. And you would have to wear only black and never show an eye. And once all women did that you would have to lock yourself in your house and never come out. Do you think that it might be better if those sorts of men behaved like civilised people and did not harrass women on the street?

Are you talking about in a Islamic country because if every women was dressed like me then I think this would have been a Islamic country….try going to a Islamic country whistling at women and see what happens to you (this is what I mean about you coming up with useless, extreme to the hardcore sad arguments.)

If you tell me where I can find an Islamic country I will go there and see. In the meantime I will notice the world is full of Muslim countries and those countries tend to have a lot of young men standing on corners doing nothing much except that every now and then they whistle at women who walk by regardless of what they wear. And worse.

These arguments are not useless or extreme or even sad. They go to the heart of your problem - if the boys misbehave the only solution is to change their behaviour. If you change yours, and encourage them to pick on your sisters, you will not make an changes for the better.

:Except in any polygamous society women are going to be in short supply. If a man can legally control who his daughter marries, he can legally hold out for payment. And in Muslim countries the culture tends to demand that men pay their Fathers-in-law on marriage. Women are in short supply so of course they do. Whatever Islam demands.

Islam culture

Culture Islam

Not hard to get confused with.

Nor do I.

:That is not entirely true. Men are men and will lust after women.

You have a weird view of Muslim men always been sexually driven.

I am not the one in a burka though am I? What does that say about what Muslimas think of Muslim men? Who says they are protected in the jilbalb? Protected from what?

[Umm Yoosuf]

You know you seem to have read what I said but have not understood. E.g.

I have clearly said that what Islam says and what Muslims do are different. And that Muslims tend to give money to the bride's father. As long as you demand that I provide evidence for your strawman I will go on ignoring your demands.

If you recognize the difference between culture and Islam then why do you keep bring this issue of the groom giving money to the bride’s father? Your not still confused cultures with Islam are you?

I doubt that you can but you can find much worse in Muslim countries. I will pass on the Islamic bit as there are no Islamic countries, but is this better than a woman choosing to drape herself over a car?

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engasa110072005

Are we talking about Islam here or culture? This is a country with its own problems- this country has been in war all its life and you want to compare it to a Western country. Look at the history of the Afghan people and you’ll understand why they are in this state.

Yet again you are presenting culture to me not ISLAM.

It seems that Afghan women are commodities to be bought and sold. Now you can deny that is Islamic if you like and I will not object. But why are you silent about the plight of Afghan women and so harsh about the free choices of kafir ones? Do you think you have your priorities right?

Gets this point this is not Islamic- selling women as commodities- that’s a thing of the West. We are addressing your problems here and you are running away from it.

'Rape of a female' - Long-term national recorded crime trend

What is the solution to this promblem?

But my mind is open and I am willing to learn. Who are Huda Khatabb and bint Muhammed? You mean the British-born living author Huda Khatab? Would it be naive of me to suggest that she has a career because she was born in Britain and not in Afghanistan? Can you see no benefit to kafir society at all even if it is kafir society that allows both Page Three girls and Huda Khatab to work? Can you see that perhaps her Christian upbringing might have contributed something to her abilities and education?

Ok now you are getting emotional here. I don’t know which Muslim told you that a Kufr country has no benefits- Because why would there be so much Muslims here? We are only here to get back what was taken from us. Did her Christian up bring tell her to become a Muslim? What helped her become a Muslim her western values? Or did she just want to run away from your sex, drugs and rock and roll society? Like many Western women converts to Islam.

In a recent pole in the (US), 100,000 people per year in America alone, are converting to Islam. For every 1 male convert to Islam, 4 females convert to Islam, Why?

Why are your educated, so-called free women converting to Islam??? Or maybe there is a big ibn laden look a like with a cane telling them to convert or he’ll beat them.

Fine. Then say Islam does not allow female Presidents. I have no problem with that. Just do not claim that Islam encourages women politicians.

Who said? Did I say that Islam encourages women to be politicians.

Yours and mine both. Not just mine. Not just yours.

There is a black sheep in EVERY community (this is what I mean by you just reading what I write but not understanding it)

Hey, I am not the one who can only feel safe in a burka - who is going to the extreme in their views of how sexually driven men, or women for that matter, are?

Complete 'hijab', also includes the moral conduct, behaviour, attitude and intention of the individual. A person only fulfilling the criteria of 'hijab' of the clothes is observing 'hijab' in a limited sense. 'Hijab' of the clothes should be accompanied by 'hijab' of the eyes, 'hijab' of the heart, 'hijab' of thought and 'hijab' of intention. It also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc.

If you tell me where I can find an Islamic country I will go there and see. In the meantime I will notice the world is full of Muslim countries and those countries tend to have a lot of young men standing on corners doing nothing much except that every now and then they whistle at women who walk by regardless of what they wear. And worse.

I have find this highly fascinating and imaginative idea you came up with but I’ll go with it. Lets say that there are men who whistle at women wearing the full Hijab, these Muslim boys may whistle at them but Western men whistle at them and then rape them.


Regards

[HeiGou]

If you recognize the difference between culture and Islam then why do you keep bring this issue of the groom giving money to the bride’s father? Your not still confused cultures with Islam are you?

I keep bringing it up because it is relevant. What Muslim boys do - harrass women on the streets - is relevant and caused by many factors some of which are Islamic. Now the justification given for the hijab was the behaviour of those boys. I keep pointing out the only solution is to change those boys' behaviour. You can change their behaviour so that they behave Islamically if you like, but their behaviour needs to change.

As for the money changing hands, Islam permits, and even encourages, polygamy. This is going to have many effects one of which is that women will be in short supply - more single men than women. It means that a Father can demand money when his daughter marries. And in most Muslim countries he does. It may not be Islamic, it may be against Islam even, but it is also an inevitable consequence of Islamic law.

Are we talking about Islam here or culture? This is a country with its own problems- this country has been in war all its life and you want to compare it to a Western country. Look at the history of the Afghan people and you’ll understand why they are in this state.

And yet you are silent about the plight of your sisters and so very eloquent about the plight of kafir women. Why is that?

Gets this point this is not Islamic- selling women as commodities- that’s a thing of the West. We are addressing your problems here and you are running away from it.

Except as we all know women are not bought and sold in the West. They are in the Muslim world - whether that is Islamic or not. As for the record, could you please provide me with any evidence that says a Father cannot accept money for the hand of his daughter in Islam?

The problems here are not of Western women but of Muslim women. Why are you so silent on women actually being bought and sold as commodities and so very loud on the subject of women who are not bought and sold but make foolish choices?

'Rape of a female' - Long-term national recorded crime trend

What is the solution to this promblem?

No idea. Harsher punishments I expect.

Ok now you are getting emotional here. I don’t know which Muslim told you that a Kufr country has no benefits- Because why would there be so much Muslims here? We are only here to get back what was taken from us.

Really? What do you think was taken from you?

Did her Christian up bring tell her to become a Muslim? What helped her become a Muslim her western values? Or did she just want to run away from your sex, drugs and rock and roll society? Like many Western women converts to Islam.

Who knows what helped her become a Muslim - her Christian upbringing probably. But the point remains - she is not a good example of the freedom of Muslim women to publish because, of course, she is a convert. Had she been born and raised in the Muslim world outside Kaffirdom, she would not have been able to write a word - like virtually all her sisters in Islam. Where are the Islamic equivalents of Jane Austen? Anyone know a single major female writer in the Muslim world between, let's say, 800 and 1800 AD?

Why are your educated, so-called free women converting to Islam??? Or maybe there is a big ibn laden look a like with a cane telling them to convert or he’ll beat them.

Western women are not commodities to be bought and sold. They are free to do what they like within minor limits and hence marry who they like. They often meet nice boys at University and are allowed to marry them. We do not require parental permission, we do not forbid it by law. Often they also convert when they marry or soon after. It is a measure of the appeal of love, not necessarily of Islam.

The question you ought to ask is how many remain Muslims. I think there is a study that says four fifths of American converts leave Islam. I notice you do not mention that.

Complete 'hijab', also includes the moral conduct, behaviour, attitude and intention of the individual. A person only fulfilling the criteria of 'hijab' of the clothes is observing 'hijab' in a limited sense. 'Hijab' of the clothes should be accompanied by 'hijab' of the eyes, 'hijab' of the heart, 'hijab' of thought and 'hijab' of intention. It also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc.

And all this to prevent boys from whistling at you on the street? Who is going to extremes in their views of Muslim boys' behaviours and attitudes here? Not me.

I have find this highly fascinating and imaginative idea you came up with but I’ll go with it. Lets say that there are men who whistle at women wearing the full Hijab, these Muslim boys may whistle at them but Western men whistle at them and then rape them.

There is not a lot of evidence of that either. The majority of women in the West move about every day without being whistled at and the overwhelming majority are never raped. There is plenty of evidence that the same cannot be said of Muslim countries - there are accounts of Afghan boys who raped Afghan girls by getting them in a shop and ripping off their hijab so they could not get away even if they wanted. There are plenty of stories of Egyptian boys who engage in gang rapes. Just because Muslim countries produce no statistics of value, it does not mean there is not a problem.

[nihma333]

[QUOTE=HeiGou;202792]Really? What is sad?



But if they were objects for sale, how would they be treated? If I owned a valuable Ferrari I would not expose it to public view unless I had to. Gold bars are locked in bank vaults. Jewelry is hidden in safes. If women were treated like commodities in the West, they would be treated as if they were valuable. [QUOTE]

That is exactly why women where hijab!!!!!!


....Maybe you need to look up the term commodity again... Because luxuries are not only seen as commoditites. Toilet paper is a commodity too, andything of monetary value...something that can be bought and sold. And sadly, that's what many Western women are viewed as.

peace to you,
Naimah

[nihma333]

Really? What is sad?
If I owned a valuable Ferrari I would not expose it to public view unless I had to. Gold bars are locked in bank vaults. Jewelry is hidden in safes. If women were treated like commodities in the West, they would be treated as if they were valuable.

That is exactly why women where hijab!!!!!!


....Maybe you need to look up the term commodity again... Because luxuries are not only seen as commoditites. Toilet paper is a commodity too, andything of monetary value...something that can be bought and sold. And sadly, that's what many Western women are viewed as.

peace to you,
Naimah

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
surly you sisters would protect something that is valuable, like jewellery in safe, so shouldn't you protect your modesty and beauty behind a veil and also wear hijab?
wasalam

[HeiGou]

But if they were objects for sale, how would they be treated? If I owned a valuable Ferrari I would not expose it to public view unless I had to. Gold bars are locked in bank vaults. Jewelry is hidden in safes. If women were treated like commodities in the West, they would be treated as if they were valuable.

That is exactly why women where hijab!!!!!!

So you are saying that Muslim men treat Muslim women just like they would treat their Ferraris, their gold or their jewelry? As possessions? Come on now, you cannot believe that.

....Maybe you need to look up the term commodity again... Because luxuries are not only seen as commoditites. Toilet paper is a commodity too, andything of monetary value...something that can be bought and sold. And sadly, that's what many Western women are viewed as.

Ahh, so the distinction you are trying to draw is that both Western women and Muslim women are treated as objects to be bought and sold, it is just that Western women are cheap?

I agree it is how many Western women are viewed, especially by men from certain cultures, but it is not how Western women are, as it happens. They cannot be bought and sold. They can be charmed, persuaded, even tricked, but not bought and sold. Unlike Afghan women.

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
in islam, women have to follow thier faith which is to cover themselves and protect thier modesty, and if they are married then it is natural that the husband is to be protective and have some control over his wife, that does not mean we are denying them thier freedom, but the limits has to be within the islamic boundaries
who said women are sold and bought? and am not sure about your reference to afghan women
wasalam

[HeiGou]

In islam, women have to follow thier faith which is to cover themselves and protect thier modesty, and if they are married then it is natural that the husband is to be protective and have some control over his wife, that does not mean we are denying them thier freedom, but the limits has to be within the islamic boundaries

Now this is a defence of Islamic law I can respect. It does not pick on me for a start. If you want to say this is what God wants, say this is what God wants. Do not say that you do it because it stops boys whistling at you in the street. Even if it were true it would still not be a solution.

who said women are sold and bought? and am not sure about your reference to afghan women

Well it has been widely reported in the Western media recently. Perhaps that does not convince you.

But I think the relevant question is - can marriage come with an exchange of money that leaves the bride's family much better off? Is this prohibited in Islam?

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
more on hijab
Quoted by Sheikh Shuraim, Imam of Haram Of Makkah

Also, know my Muslim sister that to conceal your face and allow your eyebrows, cheekbone, and bridge of the nose to remain uncovered is clear error. Some women use this as a ploy to cover up their inadequate features. They will uncover what they like and cover what they dislike. If our woman folk exit their homes having beautified themselves, uncovering more that what they cover, perfumed, while using their eyes and movement to attract the attention of men, they are indeed calling to deviance and disorder.

Quoted by Sheikh Sudais, Imam of Haram Of Makkah

By Allah you will be praised, you will please your household and make your home happy, you will perfect your hijab, you will perfect your chastity, relieve others and you will make yourself happy and comfortable.
How many young women get trapped and how much tragedy happens when the hijab is destroyed and the jilbab (outer garment) is taken off and the `wolves` (wicked men) devour the women? Such is as a result of sufoor and mingling with men in jobs, schools, and market places.

wasalam

[HeiGou]

Quoted by Sheikh Sudais, Imam of Haram Of Makkah

By Allah you will be praised, you will please your household and make your home happy, you will perfect your hijab, you will perfect your chastity, relieve others and you will make yourself happy and comfortable.
How many young women get trapped and how much tragedy happens when the hijab is destroyed and the jilbab (outer garment) is taken off and the `wolves` (wicked men) devour the women? Such is as a result of sufoor and mingling with men in jobs, schools, and market places.

So this Mufti is basically claiming that rape is the fault of women who go out in public places to work or get educated or shop?

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
what this sheikh/khateeb is saying is that if muslim womens dont cover themselves properlt they attract men which could lead to other things
and sheikh shuraim is also giving the importance of covering and what to cover
wasalam

[firdous]

salamz it is not just about women covering themselves but men also

they too need to guard their modesty and take hole of thier desires...

women wearing hijab do not just look at it from a cultural prospective but from a religious one. because arguments and debates are taking a different path from the original debate 'women waering hijab...etc'

gtg

[Tasneem]

If a woman wears no hijab then men can/will lust at her face...
And then it gets crazy from that point..like when i did'nt cover my face before
guys would follow me in stores i turn arouund and a guys right there looking at me!Its sick men out here and praise be to Allah who has told us how to protect ourselves...when i did'nt cover my face i would be afraid at night of a sick guy coming in and rapin me..this stuff is serious its no laughing matter...
I see girls downtown in the summer when a guy looks at them they just laugh and say to there friends,''you see him looking at me?!''Its not funny....

[bezimany 071]

So this Mufti is basically claiming that rape is the fault of women who go out in public places to work or get educated or shop?

the chance of muslim sister getting raped who wears hijab is very very small compared to a non muslim woman, who wears tight clothes, skimpy outfits and mini skirts revealing her "hourglass" figure if you will.....i also know that many non muslim women dont wear revealing outfits, but in fact dress very presentable, classy and even behave polite......however, they spend a lot of time into their appearance (hair and make up), so basicaly man has more attraction to that which he can see with his eye, than that which is unknown to him.......

and muslim sister who wears hijab doesnt loose her beauty at all, in fact i believe it makes her look more classy and respectful......once again, every sister who wears it chose to do so, those who dont wear it also made that choice..

peace
bez

[HeiGou]

the chance of muslim sister getting raped who wears hijab is very very small compared to a non muslim woman, who wears tight clothes, skimpy outfits and mini skirts revealing her "hourglass" figure if you will.

Why do you think that is? Many parts of the Muslim world have all the high risk factors you could imagine for rape - lots of single, young, unemployed men for instance. A bad demographic. Cultures that blame women for being raped. Cultures that do not encourage reporting of rape. Cultures that do not result in the prosecution of many rapists. A rapist in many parts of the Muslim world knows he has an excellent chance of getting away with it, and in fact of it not being reported at all. Even if it is, he knows there is a good chance he will be acquitted. And there are large numbers of young men who are not too busy earning a living, who do not have a girlfriend or any chance of getting one, and are generally alienated.

Now no one knows what the figures for rape are in the Muslim world. But it is clear that Egyptian newspapers are full of accounts of gang rapes even while the government says there are none. It is also clear that many gang rapes have occured in the West have been committed by boys from certain religious and cultural backgrounds. Care to guess what those backgrounds are?

....i also know that many non muslim women dont wear revealing outfits, but in fact dress very presentable, classy and even behave polite......however, they spend a lot of time into their appearance (hair and make up), so basicaly man has more attraction to that which he can see with his eye, than that which is unknown to him.......

Which does not explain rape in any way shape or form. Rapists are sad, single, lonely men who are usually socially inadequate. What women wear or do not wear is not a big problem. Children are raped. Old women in their 80s are raped. Cripples are raped. Desire as normal people would understand it has little to do with it.

and muslim sister who wears hijab doesnt loose her beauty at all, in fact i believe it makes her look more classy and respectful......once again, every sister who wears it chose to do so, those who dont wear it also made that choice..

You say every sister and yet you must know this is not true. In much of the world women have no choice at all. Women in the West have the choice (although there is some degree of complusion from relatives) and I am all for that. Wearing the hijab is hardly the worst thing in the world. But why do you think you associate such dress with being classy and respectful? Don't you think that a non-Muslim might see that as a sign you have a problem dealing with women?

[HeiGou]

If a woman wears no hijab then men can/will lust at her face...
And then it gets crazy from that point..like when i did'nt cover my face before
guys would follow me in stores i turn arouund and a guys right there looking at me!Its sick men out here and praise be to Allah who has told us how to protect ourselves...when i did'nt cover my face i would be afraid at night of a sick guy coming in and rapin me..this stuff is serious its no laughing matter...
I see girls downtown in the summer when a guy looks at them they just laugh and say to there friends,''you see him looking at me?!''Its not funny....

Am I the only person who sees this as the entire problem in a nutshell?

[Halima]

:sl:

Some of you here come up with the silly notion that women are forced to wear hijab.



A classic example of a distorted quote. What a shame May Allah(swt) give you guidance.

Plenty of people force women to wear the hijab. Any Muslim website will be full of messages that say things like "I forced my sister to wear the jilbalb and now she loves it". I have not looked here but I bet I could find one such message unless the Mods pull them. There is also more subtle pressure

Excuse me but who ever said that muslim women are forced to wear the hijab? When you steryotype 1 muslim woman for the whole female ummah then that is where there problem lies. One cannot do that, they are simply proceeding to become close minded. Come on people. Get your mind of of the gutters and get your information straight for once. In the Quran if you have read, it is most certainly obligatory for an adult woman to wear the hijab wether she likes it or not. There is a reason behind it which is quite obvious. I wiull not get into detail right now because it is your duty to research and get your own facts striaght.

if everyone treats you like a prostitute if you do not wear one, you will quickly wear one

What the heck is this? I am sorry but I WILL NOT waste my time trying to reason with someone that talks like this.

Until you can show to me that you have your senses back I will try to reason with you but I will not waste my time when someone cannot even understand the simple concept of protection given by Allah(swt).

Wether you like it or not the fact of the matter is that muslim woman are much more respected in terms of dressing then any other American/western woman.

You can see for urself from your own peers that they are so much more respected and that they are not being treated as protitues ----s or hoers like the American/western woman are commonly called. As shown in this thread..


http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...e-respect.html

[HeiGou]

Some of you here come up with the silly notion that women are forced to wear hijab.

A classic example of a distorted quote. What a shame May Allah(swt) give you guidance.

The only distortion I can see is made by people who blur the line between "some people are forced to wear the hijab" and "all women are forced to wear the hijab". Do you see why your argument would gain more credibility if it stuck to what I said?

Excuse me but who ever said that muslim women are forced to wear the hijab?

Are you denying that no women in the history of the Islamic world has ever once been forced to wear the hijab? If not, what is the relevance to what I said?

When you steryotype 1 muslim woman for the whole female ummah then that is where there problem lies.

Well no because I did not do that. You did. That is exactly where the problem lies.

In the Quran if you have read, it is most certainly obligatory for an adult woman to wear the hijab wether she likes it or not. There is a reason behind it which is quite obvious. I wiull not get into detail right now because it is your duty to research and get your own facts striaght.

I agree entirely - as far as I can see the Quran says to wear the hijab. So what? Oh, do tell your opinion on why that is?

What the heck is this? I am sorry but I WILL NOT waste my time trying to reason with someone that talks like this.

No one is forcing you. I would be unhappy if you stopped, but I would not want you to continue if it made you feel uncomfortable.

Wether you like it or not the fact of the matter is that muslim woman are much more respected in terms of dressing then any other American/western woman.

That is not a fact. It is an opinion. They may be more respected by many Muslim men who are, generally, not known in the West for the respect they extend women in general and especially Western women. But that is not the same as all men.

You can see for urself from your own peers that they are so much more respected and that they are not being treated as protitues ----s or hoers like the American/western woman are commonly called. As shown in this thread..

I have never called anyone a prostitute or a -----. Nor have I heard anyone call a woman that except on TV - American rappers (many of whom are, oddly enough, Muslims or friendly with Muslims) tend to.

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
ok, the overall point is that muslim women have to wear hijab, as it is commanded by allah that women and men have to cover up
and yes it is true that those who attract men are likely to end up in tragedy as Sheikh Sudais has mentioned
wasalam

[bezimany 071]

where did you read or hear information on muslim women in large numbers (u seem to make it sound that way) being raped in muslim world as well as gang rapes....i would appreciate any source of information where you got this, i would like to see this for myself......i dont disagree, rapes happen everywhere, but in usa rapists, can get out on bail (not to mention child molesters who get 8 yrs for molesting a child...but thats another can of worms i dont want to get into righ now) and in usa there are thos women who dont report rape either, why i dont know, embarresment?...reputation?.....fear?....i dont know?...........i know in muslim countires people who do get caught doing sung things face severe punisjment, i mean if they take your hand for stealing, immagine what they do if you steal someones innocence

and you are profiling rapists.....yes....they do have a problem in the first place to be doing what they do......still i never said its womans fault that she got raped, but there is something that she can do to protect herself.....some women carry paper spray, muslim women wear hijab, i dont think you will understand this, but they wear hijab for Allah Swt.....not for me or you or her husband.....so if she wears it for Him, He gives her protection at all times, this is bigger than me or you could understand, ask any sister and see if they disagree......

you said and i quote "in much of the world woman have no choice at all?.....homie you watch too much TV....name those parts of the world name those countries and regions and lets see if it really makes up most of the world.....we got brothers and sisters from most of the world right here on this forum....from all parts, so how come there isnt one muslim that agrees with you on this post, if there is any sister here on this forum that is forced to wear hijab at least she is not forced to type and post messages on this forum....only people who disgree on this post are non muslims.....think about that....there are muslims from india pakistan usa malasia arab coutries and europe on this forum....over 200 visits per day......and most of them are muslim.....and there is not one muslim who thinks let alone believe that hijab has to do anything with terrorism or forcing woman to do what she doesnt want to.......coinsidence?....i think not

peace
bez

[Umm Yoosuf]

I keep bringing it up because it is relevant.

To you maybe but not to me. If it’s got nothing to do with Islam it’s got nothing to do with me. You follow?

What Muslim boys do - harrass women on the streets –

Which part of “theres a black sheep in VERY community didn’t you understand?”

is relevant and caused by many factors some of which are Islamic.

Now that’s surprise- care to lay your evidence on that table?

Now the justification given for the hijab was the behaviour of those boys. I keep pointing out the only solution is to change those boys' behaviour. You can change their behaviour so that they behave Islamically if you like, but their behaviour needs to change.

When you talk about my brother’s in islam like that- that the reason we (women) wear the Hijab because of them- because they can’t control themselves- then someone needs to put you to you place!

You see my brothers in Islam none can be compared to them- those that follow Islam from Quran and Sunnah- no other man is like them. They are modest, kind, caring and most of all God-Fearing. They are not man by gender but they are real men something that men of the west aren’t. They know how to take care of real women. Why? Because they have Islam. Muhammad is their role model. A role Model that is perfect in every sense, in every move. Something that you don’t have.

And yet you are silent about the plight of your sisters and so very eloquent about the plight of kafir women. Why is that?

You brought and presented to me the culture of a country when I we were discussing about ISLAM and the West!

You know for someone who claims they are open minded you write a lot of nonsense.

Firstly try and understand Islam from Quran and Sunnah not from the action of some Muslims. Secondly if you want debate an issue regarding Islam and the treatment of women in Islam bring your evidence not you ridicules claims.

The problems taking place in Afghanistan is easy to resolve with ISLAM. If the people practised the true Islam then these problems wouldn’t arise- culture that conflicts with Islam would be left aside.

Except as we all know women are not bought and sold in the West.

The sexuality of the Western has become a commodity that will give any male person the understanding that a Western woman is available.

They are in the Muslim world - whether that is Islamic or not.

Due to culture NOT ISLAM. End of.

Looking back at your post's there seems to be a lot of things regarding marriage. Hence I’d ask you to start a thread on women in Islam and marriage :rollseyes

[Umm Yoosuf]

Read some of these articles

http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm

http://www.islamfortoday.com/emerick15.htm

[hidaayah]

I agree entirely - as far as I can see the Quran says to wear the hijab. So what? Oh, do tell your opinion on why that is?

The quran is our constitution..its the book we follow and whatever it says its ryte..!! so if we want to , or don't we must altogether submit to it coz are name muslim means to submit..!!..we've been bought in turn of our lives. quran says:

9.111 . Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain . It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Quran . Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made , for that is the supreme triumph .

and the reasons to wear hijaab are given in the quran itself...

33.59 . O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them ( when they go abroad ) . That will be better , that so they may be recognized and not annoyed . Allah is ever Forgiving , Merciful .

means.. that hijaab is the identity of a Muslim woman..!! its the identity of a pious n respectful woman..!! and experience tells me that no one will say anything to you and u will be respected..
peace

[Tasneem]

The quran is our constitution..its the book we follow and whatever it says its ryte..!! so if we want to , or don't we must altogether submit to it coz are name muslim means to submit..!!..we've been bought in turn of our lives. quran says:



and the reasons to wear hijaab are given in the quran itself...

means.. that hijaab is the identity of a Muslim woman..!! its the identity of a pious n respectful woman..!! and experience tells me that no one will say anything to you and u will be respected..
peace

I totally agree!!!!:) :thankyou: :sister:
I read your message in my e-mail and i was like,''i have to come here and applaud you!!!:happy: :) And TabTabuin said,''give her rep''!and thats just what im going to do inshallah!:) :sister: :giggling: :happy:

[HeiGou]

where did you read or hear information on muslim women in large numbers (u seem to make it sound that way) being raped in muslim world as well as gang rapes....i would appreciate any source of information where you got this, i would like to see this for myself

I have been clear that there is a problem with evidence given the lack of proper record keeping in the Third World and I have discussed the reasons for thinking that the rate is high. See a few posts up.

i dont disagree, rapes happen everywhere, but in usa rapists, can get out on bail (not to mention child molesters who get 8 yrs for molesting a child...but thats another can of worms i dont want to get into righ now) and in usa there are thos women who dont report rape either, why i dont know, embarresment?...reputation?.....fear?....i dont know?...........i know in muslim countires people who do get caught doing sung things face severe punisjment, i mean if they take your hand for stealing, immagine what they do if you steal someones innocence

Except for a proper hudd punishment for rape you need four adult male witnesses that see actual penetration. How many rapes do you think involve four adult male witnesses? As the moderator Ansar Al-Adl has pointed out, an Islamic judge can, if he chooses and it is always a he, impose a discretionary punishment. But as there appears to be no Islamic juriprudence on what standard of proof is needed, or what the punishment ought to be, that is inevitably culturally determined. Which means that custom prevails. What do you think that culture is likely to be? Muslim countries have very very low rates of convictions for rape. You are more likely to be convicted and punished in the US.

From Amnesty International

According to The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, every two hours a woman is raped in Pakistan and every eight hours a woman is subjected to gang rape. While these figures are derived from reported incidents in 2002, the frequency of rapes is in reality much higher. The combination of social taboos, discriminatory laws and victimization at the hands of the police are key reasons why many rapes remain unreported.

and you are profiling rapists.....yes....they do have a problem in the first place to be doing what they do......still i never said its womans fault that she got raped, but there is something that she can do to protect herself.....some women carry paper spray, muslim women wear hijab,

What makes you think that hijab is any protection at all? You can see what Muslims think of the protective value of hijab because it is not usually enough. Women are encouraged not only not to go out without it, but not to go out at all or at least in company. An Egyptian sheik once said that a woman ought to leave the home on three occasions.

Also of course the hijab can be used by rapists - if they can take it from the woman, she cannot run outside. There are certainly accounts of Afghan boys doing precisely this.

i dont think you will understand this, but they wear hijab for Allah Swt.....not for me or you or her husband.....so if she wears it for Him, He gives her protection at all times, this is bigger than me or you could understand, ask any sister and see if they disagree......

I am all for anyone doing whatever God wants. As long as no one makes spurious secular arguments for it.

you said and i quote "in much of the world woman have no choice at all?.....homie you watch too much TV....name those parts of the world name those countries and regions and lets see if it really makes up most of the world.

Well let's start with any Muslim country in the Third World with a long history of orthodox Islam.

....we got brothers and sisters from most of the world right here on this forum....from all parts, so how come there isnt one muslim that agrees with you on this post,

Well for one this is a Muslim site - if you went to an Apostate one you would get a different response. For another it is disproportionately literate and hence middle class. Ask poor women. Ask the illiterate.

there are muslims from india pakistan usa malasia arab coutries and europe on this forum....over 200 visits per day......and most of them are muslim.....and there is not one muslim who thinks let alone believe that hijab has to do anything with terrorism or forcing woman to do what she doesnt want to.......coinsidence?....i think not

Nor do I. Because if they hated hijab they might dislike Islam and they would not be here. Selection bias.

[HeiGou]

To you maybe but not to me. If it’s got nothing to do with Islam it’s got nothing to do with me. You follow?

Fair enough. But some Islamic laws have consequences. You cannot ignore those and say they are not Islam.

Which part of “theres a black sheep in VERY community didn’t you understand?”

Every Muslim country I have seen, and I admit I have not seen many, have a lot of boys hanging out on street corners misbehaving. If you go to Malaysia you see Malays doing it. You do not see Chinese boys doing it. If you go to Turkey it is hard to find a boy doing anything else.

When you talk about my brother’s in islam like that- that the reason we (women) wear the Hijab because of them- because they can’t control themselves- then someone needs to put you to you place!

You see my brothers in Islam none can be compared to them- those that follow Islam from Quran and Sunnah- no other man is like them. They are modest, kind, caring and most of all God-Fearing. They are not man by gender but they are real men something that men of the west aren’t. They know how to take care of real women. Why? Because they have Islam. Muhammad is their role model. A role Model that is perfect in every sense, in every move. Something that you don’t have.

Then some of them are not following the Quran and the Sunna. Let me quote you another poster

If a woman wears no hijab then men can/will lust at her face...
And then it gets crazy from that point..like when i did'nt cover my face before
guys would follow me in stores i turn arouund and a guys right there looking at me!Its sick men out here and praise be to Allah who has told us how to protect ourselves...when i did'nt cover my face i would be afraid at night of a sick guy coming in and rapin me..this stuff is serious its no laughing matter...
I see girls downtown in the summer when a guy looks at them they just laugh and say to there friends,''you see him looking at me?!''Its not funny....

Somehow I do not think she lives in the West or is talking about Western boys. What do you think?

You brought and presented to me the culture of a country when I we were discussing about ISLAM and the West!

Actually I do not think we were. Islam has nothing to do with terrorism after all. But a lot of these threads go on and on about Western women. And yet Afghan women, all hijab wearers I am sure, are being literally bought and sold. Not a peep out of anyone but us kafirs. Not that is a surprise.

The problems taking place in Afghanistan is easy to resolve with ISLAM. If the people practised the true Islam then these problems wouldn’t arise- culture that conflicts with Islam would be left aside.

How would the problem of buying and selling girls be resolved with Islam? Is it actually forbidden for a man to take money in exchange for his daughter's hand in marriage?

The sexuality of the Western has become a commodity that will give any male person the understanding that a Western woman is available.

Yes. Well. Your problems dealing with the West and lack of understanding aside. Can't you see this disproves your point? Women may or may not give themselves to a male person if they want in the West. But if they do so it is because they are free to do so and that is because they have no financial value in the West. We do not buy and sell them so we do not lock them up to retain their monetary value. They are NOT commodities. If they were we would look after them better and keep them at home. Because they are free in a financial sense, they are free in the sense they can do whatever they like within the law. Not a commodity. No matter how many times you make this claim it will not become true.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Except for a proper hudd punishment for rape you need four adult male witnesses that see actual penetration. How many rapes do you think involve four adult male witnesses? As the moderator Ansar Al-Adl has pointed out, an Islamic judge can, if he chooses and it is always a he, impose a discretionary punishment. But as there appears to be no Islamic juriprudence on what standard of proof is needed, or what the punishment ought to be, that is inevitably culturally determined. Which means that custom prevails. What do you think that culture is likely to be?

As I pointed out to you in the last thread in which we discussed this, burden of proof has nothing to do with culture. If there is sufficient evidence to incriminate the accused then the judge must impose a punishment comparable to the crime. The traditional punishments given out in Muslim countries have been lashes or execution - certainly no slap on the wrist. And sufficient evidence has nothing to do with culture, it has to do with the sophistication of our technology and our methods of gathering evidence, which were poor in all parts of the world prior to the modern era. You can't 'culturally' define burden of proof. It is illogical.

Muslim countries have very very low rates of convictions for rape. You are more likely to be convicted and punished in the US.

Not true. Since no country can get statistics on total unreported rapes, this is mere conjecture put forward by some.

Also of course the hijab can be used by rapists - if they can take it from the woman, she cannot run outside.

A flawed argument, because it is better to be seen without hijab than to get raped!

Nor do I. Because if they hated hijab they might dislike Islam and they would not be here. Selection bias.

Why would they not be here if they disliked Islam? Many of them would come to debate. And there are some misguided individuals who think that hijab is not part of Islam, so their not liking hijab does not equate a dislike for Islam (although it does reflect negatively on their knowledge).

[HeiGou]

As I pointed out to you in the last thread in which we discussed this, burden of proof has nothing to do with culture. If there is sufficient evidence to incriminate the accused then the judge must impose a punishment comparable to the crime.

What amounts to sufficient evidence in traditional Islamic jurisprudence?

The traditional punishments given out in Muslim countries have been lashes or execution - certainly no slap on the wrist. And sufficient evidence has nothing to do with culture, it has to do with the sophistication of our technology and our methods of gathering evidence, which were poor in all parts of the world prior to the modern era. You can't 'culturally' define burden of proof. It is illogical.

It is not illogical. What people consider sufficient proof, or indeed proof at all, is highly cultural in nature. Consider the trial by poison phenomenon - the Court gives the two parties poison to drink, however does not die is telling the truth. Sounds silly to us, but it consistutes sufficient proof in the culture is occurs in. Trial by combat too. Islam, and correct me if I am wrong, has relied on oath-taking as a means of proof. This strikes me as odd, but I am sure it does not to you.

Furthermore in rape the line between rape and consentual sex is thin. It often comes down to an interpretation by the jury of what is more likely. That too is entirely culturally based so that even Western lawyers try to get the clothes the girl wore into evidence so that the jury can make a moral judgement about what sort of girl she was - whether she was likely to have consented or was just asking for it. In Islamic courts, with no juries and no lawyers, these decisions will be made by a single male judge. You claim that he is always above his culture? I posted on the Sydney gang rapes a while ago. The mother of one of the boys, heavily veiled, said that the girls asked for it because they got into one of the boys' car. That is not cultural?

Not true. Since no country can get statistics on total unreported rapes, this is mere conjecture put forward by some.

I did not say anything there about unreported rapes. And surveys of the population will tell you something. One of the most shocking figures I have ever seen was asking Bangladeshi women not whether they had been beaten but what they did about it. Of course none of them bothered to tell the police. But over half had not bothered to tell their family.

A flawed argument, because it is better to be seen without hijab than to get raped!

Depends on the likely outcome either way don't you think?

Why would they not be here if they disliked Islam? Many of them would come to debate. And there are some misguided individuals who think that hijab is not part of Islam, so their not liking hijab does not equate a dislike for Islam (although it does reflect negatively on their knowledge).

Why bother debating? They are more likely to hide what their relatives might consider shameful and go shopping. Pious girls are more likely to be here because, after all, what else are they going to be doing?

[Umm Yoosuf]

But some Islamic laws have consequences.

like?.....

Every Muslim country I have seen, and I admit I have not seen many, have a lot of boys hanging out on street corners misbehaving. If you go to Malaysia you see Malays doing it. You do not see Chinese boys doing it. If you go to Turkey it is hard to find a boy doing anything else.

And your point been....? it has something to do with islam?

Then some of them are not following the Quran and the Sunna.

Right. At least we are getting somewhere! Indeed some muslim's men and women do not follow islam from quran and sunnah. They gather follow their own disires.

....Let me quote you another poster

Somehow I do not think she lives in the West or is talking about Western boys. What do you think?

How unreasonable are you??! Don’t quote someone’s else saying to me to prove your baseless points.

Yes. Well. Your problems dealing with the West and lack of understanding aside. Can't you see this disproves your point? Women may or may not give themselves to a male person if they want in the West. But if they do so it is because they are free to do so and that is because they have no financial value in the West. We do not buy and sell them so we do not lock them up to retain their monetary value. They are NOT commodities. If they were we would look after them better and keep them at home. Because they are free in a financial sense, they are free in the sense they can do whatever they like within the law. Not a commodity. No matter how many times you make this claim it will not become true.

You know many times i havr told you saling woman to a man she doesn't want to marry has got nothing to do with islam, yet what is really Astonishing is how you keep bringing this up. Many times I asked you to lay your evidence on the table yet you choose to ignore it. This goes to show you arrogance.


The Prophet (peace be upon him) said,

"The widow and the divorced woman shall not be married until their order is obtained, and the virgin shall not be married until her consent is obtained." (AlBukhari)


When a man gives his daughter in marriage and she dislikes it, the marriage shall be annulled." Once a virgin girl came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that her father had married her to a man against her wishes. The Prophet gave her the right to repudiate the marriage. (Abu Dawud).

[Umm Yoosuf]

HeiGou you said

is relevant and caused by many factors some of which are Islamic.

and i said :

Now that’s surprise- care to lay your evidence on that table?

I am still waiting for the edivience.

Link for the thread

http://www.islamicboard.com/educatio...m-hijab-4.html

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

:sl:
I wear the style of hijab that muslimahs wear in Iran, and i'm living in britain. I get looked at like a freak/terrorist. It's not nice, and i get rude commenst occasionally. But after a while you just get used to it, and it only softens my heart and increases my iman every time something happens:). You've just got to keep on saying alhamdulillah.
:w::rose::peace:

[Umm Yoosuf]

:sl:
I wear the style of hijab that muslimahs wear in Iran, and i'm living in britain. I get looked at like a freak/terrorist. It's not nice, and i get rude commenst occasionally. But after a while you just get used to it, and it only softens my heart and increases my iman every time something happens:). You've just got to keep on saying alhamdulillah.
:w::rose::peace:

Subhnallah :heated:

Have you ever been asked my non-muslim women where they could find your Hijab?

I have been asked couple of time's:X

I was quite amazed the fact that they want to wear it and they are not even Muslim's Subhnallah:)

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

oh and i'm not a iranian... i just wear that hijab because i find it covers you up the best. Some sisters may disagree. I actually wear another big hijab underneath lol. Oh yeah, and I wasn't forced:). That's a top question for everyone, 'where you forced'?:)
:w::rose::peace:

[Umm Yoosuf]

or are you marriaged!

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Subhnallah :heated:

Have you ever been asked my non-muslim women where they could find your Hijab?

I have been asked couple of time's:X

I was quite amazed the fact that they want to wear it and they are not even Muslim's Subhnallah:)

Aww wow that's amazing. It goes to show that some people wear hijab genuinely because they don't want to be seen as an object for men to look at and ogle and stare at.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

nope, 16 and single:D

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

lol..... nah you can tell how young i am from my face. they might assume it though lol.

[HeiGou]

like?.....

Polygamy is certainly one reason Muslim countries have so many young single men who are not at home with their wives.

Right. At least we are getting somewhere! Indeed some muslim's men and women do not follow islam from quran and sunnah. They gather follow their own disires.

Indeed.

How unreasonable are you??! Don’t quote someone’s else saying to me to prove your baseless points.

You insist that Muslim boys do not do this. I show you someone who makes it very clear she wears the hijab because of the behaviour of the boys who treat her without respect and you get outraged? Why? Why is this in any way unreasonable? Either this is why some women wear it or it is not.

You know many times i havr told you saling woman to a man she doesn't want to marry has got nothing to do with islam,

And I keep asking you whether Islam forbids a man to accept money in exchange for his daughter and you keep refusing to tell me.

yet what is really Astonishing is how you keep bringing this up. Many times I asked you to lay your evidence on the table yet you choose to ignore it. This goes to show you arrogance.

I am sorry you think that is arrogance. Of course I keep bringing it up. You insult Western women and Western men with unjustifiable claims. Yet you ignore the plight of your sisters in the Muslim world. I have never said this is Islamic. I have said it goes on in the Muslim world. A fact you do not care about in any way shape or form. Which is worse - allowing Western women to make their own choices some of which are stupid, or selling daughters? You only seem upset about one of those issues.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said,

"The widow and the divorced woman shall not be married until their order is obtained, and the virgin shall not be married until her consent is obtained." (AlBukhari)

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that a partial quotation?

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 67:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)."

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 68:

Narrated 'Aisha:

I said, "O Allah's Apostle! A virgin feels shy." He said, "Her consent is (expressed by) her silence

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 70:

Narrated Abdur-Rahman bin Yazid and Majammi bin Yazid.

the same ,Hadith above: A man called Khidam married a daughter of his (to somebody) against her consent. 'If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls then marry (other) women of your choice.' (4.3) And if somebody says to the guardian (of a woman), "Marry me to so-and-so," and the guardian remained silent or said to him, "What have you got?" And the other said, "I have so much and so much (Mahr)," or kept quiet, and then the guardian said, "I have married her to you," then the marriage is valid (legal). This narration was told by Sahl on the authority of the Prophet

Volume 9, Book 86, Number 98:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "A virgin should not be married till she is asked for her consent; and the matron should not be married till she is asked whether she agrees to marry or not." It was asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How will she(the virgin) express her consent?" He said, "By keeping silent." Some people said, "If a virgin is not asked for her consent and she is not married, and then a man, by playing a trick presents two false witnesses that he has married her with her consent and the judge confirms his marriage as a true one, and the husband knows that the witnesses were false ones, then there is no harm for him to consummate his marriage with her and the marriage is regarded as valid."

When a man gives his daughter in marriage and she dislikes it, the marriage shall be annulled." Once a virgin girl came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that her father had married her to a man against her wishes. The Prophet gave her the right to repudiate the marriage. (Abu Dawud).

Right. Except if the girl is a girl, all her guardian needs to do is keep her quiet and it is a legal marriage isn't it? So she can get the marriage annulled later, but then it may be too late. And again as long as she is afraid of what her husband or her father might do it does not matter does it?

Where in Islamic law does it say that you may not beat your daughter until she is so scared she is silent and then give her to someone in exchange for money? We all know what good Muslims should not do, but that does not mean it is illegal. You have asserted this is unIslamic. Why?

[bezimany 071]

[QUOTE=HeiGou;205868]

"You are more likely to be convicted and punished in the US. "

yes but in US a woman is also more likely to sue you for sexual harrasment just for giving her a compliment on her looks


"What makes you think that hijab is any protection at all? "

i told you you werent going to understand this....msulims didnt make this up themselves.....this comes from higher up, you still wont get it because you try to find your won justifications for everything, youre just wrong

"I am all for anyone doing whatever God wants. As long as no one makes spurious secular arguments for it."

but you do exactly that which you preach against, constantly tring to outsmart everyone on this forum.....u funny man.....i have fun reading your posts.....its almost like stand up comedy

"Well let's start with any Muslim country in the Third World with a long history of orthodox Islam."

you still didnt name any country......and which countries are under orthodox islam, or any other type of islam in your opinion.....since youre not bringing me any facts.....cmon educate me since im sooo clueless

Well for one this is a Muslim site - if you went to an Apostate one you would get a different response. For another it is disproportionately literate and hence middle class. Ask poor women. Ask the illiterate.

poor women dont own computers.......and illeterate cant type....see what i did here...i avoided answering your questions the same way you beat around the bush trying to find justification in something else while ignoring and avoiding my direct and very simple question......youre not fooling anyone bro

"Nor do I. Because if they hated hijab they might dislike Islam and they would not be here. Selection bias."

how was this selection bias, when youre trying to prove something thats clearly not true to bunch of muslims who wont even bother to reply to your bogus posts......mashaallah for their strenght, to hold back..........i swear the most stuff you do on here is go to the other websites copy and paste information.......why dont you sit for the second and pay attention to some of these brothers and sisters who know what theyre talking about instead of trying to prove them wrong with someone elses theses.......youre mad funny

p.s.
are you on any other forums too?....i would love to see what other things you love to argue about since youre here only for the sake of arguing, and not learning......

you need peace brother, i hope Allah shows you the light
peace
bez

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

What amounts to sufficient evidence in traditional Islamic jurisprudence?

Whatever amounts to sufficient evidence in any rational and reasonable estimate - and that obviously does not include trial by ordeals/

Islam, and correct me if I am wrong, has relied on oath-taking as a means of proof.

Not actually a means of proof, and this is only used for husband v. wife or wife v. husband claims of adultery. If both sides take the oath, then no punishment is given. So it is not taken as a standard of proof. It is actually closer to the fact that in most western courts a witness must take an oath before testimony.

Furthermore in rape the line between rape and consentual sex is thin.

Absolutely. And that is an inherent problem in dealing with this crime. Ultimately it may come down to two conflicting testimonies, in which case there is not sufficient evidence to punish the accused, in any society.

Whether a woman wears revealing clothing or not, if she claims she was raped, then she will not be punished.

It often comes down to an interpretation by the jury of what is more likely.

Care to give a scenario?

That too is entirely culturally based so that even Western lawyers try to get the clothes the girl wore into evidence so that the jury can make a moral judgement about what sort of girl she was - whether she was likely to have consented or was just asking for it.

But the clothes alone will not be evidence to convict the accused. A woman wearing modest clothing could just have easily consented as a woman wearning revealing clothing. In both cases the acused can not be convicted on such weak evidence.

In Islamic courts, with no juries and no lawyers, these decisions will be made by a single male judge.

This comment seems to indicate to me that you did not read my response to 'a single male judge' in our previous discussion on the topic. Are you not aware of the function of the advisory council? Or the opinions of the Hanafi, Jariri and Dhahiri madha-hib on the issue of female judges?

You claim that he is always above his culture?

I never said that. I said culture has nothing to do with it because culture doesn't make it more likely that someone committed a crime or not.

I posted on the Sydney gang rapes a while ago. The mother of one of the boys, heavily veiled, said that the girls asked for it because they got into one of the boys' car. That is not cultural?

What does that have to do with punishing the accused? This case would be treated the same in every culture - the fact that a girl gets into a car neither proves nor disproves that the boy raped her, so we're back at square one. It may be more likely that she consented based on the circumstance, but if they can't prove that she was raped they can't punish the accused, and if she claims that she was raped they won't punish her regardless.

I did not say anything there about unreported rapes.

Then you're statement lacked any evidence to back it up. If we don't know the number of unreported rapes then how can we say that someone who rapes in the US is more likely to be punished than someone who rapes in a Muslim country?

Depends on the likely outcome either way don't you think?

How so?

Why bother debating?

If they think something is wrong then they usually will be vocal about it.

They are more likely to hide what their relatives might consider shameful and go shopping. Pious girls are more likely to be here because, after all, what else are they going to be doing?

?! So a pious girl cannot go shopping according to you?

[Tasneem]

If a person wears no hijab she can get raped.Period.
Alot of ppl.say i have a chance of getting raped
Thts not so!Allah tells us to cover as a protection....:?
I know nobody is going to tell me i walk around in the summer time(all hot)and it has no purpose:offended: :rant: :heated: :rollseyes .okay!i wear hijab so i wont get molested and raped inshallah.Why would Allah tell us(woman)to cover if it has no benifet?!:? :rollseyes

[SalafiFemaleJih]

I feel If I go out widout my niqaab, hijab, abayah, and gloves then I feel there is no hayah left in me. I guess I take the opinion of the scholars who says its wajib to wear niqaab.

It protects ones honor.

Hijab or Niqaab Got nothng to do wid terrorism.

Wasalamualaikum warhatmulah.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

To illustrate the concept of hijab and modesty to our Non-Muslim members in a way they can more easily relate to, they can take a look at the following image:

Muslim women? No, these are Eastern Orthodox Christian Nuns. When people see Nuns or Muslim women dressed modestly, it send an important message across that these are women who guard their chastity and not subservient to the desires of men. It is about honor, modesty, dignity and devotion to God, as mentioned by previous members.

:w:

[abdul Majid]

wow very nice

[Tasneem]

Thts not full hijab!

Hijab is with the veil

[Tasneem]

I feel If I go out widout my niqaab, hijab, abayah, and gloves then I feel there is no hayah left in me. I guess I take the opinion of the scholars who says its wajib to wear niqaab.

It protects ones honor.

Hijab or Niqaab Got nothng to do wid terrorism.

Wasalamualaikum warhatmulah.

I agree:) :sister:

If i go out without hijab i feel that i have lost all my hayyah
I have been wearing niqqab for bout 1 in a half years
I would stop then start
Last summer was my first summer with hijab on!!!!:) :giggling:

[Ninth_Scribe]

Hijab is not terrorism, attackers go against hijab or harming sisters wearing hijab is called terrorism.

Damn, you're good! Being an American... of NO religion... I still feel every country has criminals, but it's confusing the way they are defined. Terrorism, to me, is the Columbine High School incident where the place was shot up... for NO reason!!! But defending one's land and the religion that was established on it ~ well, I'm having a real hard time buying into the whole "terrorism" deal.

Sure, I'd like to know what Abu Musab al Zarqawi is up to, but clearly not for the same reasons as the rest. I'm just a bit confused. He broad-sided me and I didn't even see him coming, but what I did see, wasn't evil. What I felt was rage, but not that "out-of-control" type of rage that makes mad men. I think he feels that his own brothers, the Shia, betrayed him and sold the country out to the highest bidder so they could partake in a celebration that would exclude Sunnis and build mosques that only serve to divide Islam.

I'm not saying I agree with him. I'm just saying what I saw during an evening dream. Personally (and this is coming from a woman whose mother refused me religion so please have a bit of patience on me), no one can convince me that Mohammed (PBUH) is delighted with the fact that his children have parted company because of a dispute surrounding his sons. I personally believe that you're all running the risk of seriously pissing off your ancestors.

Terrorism? No. I would call this a very personal domestic dispute and the United States should have butted out of it.

As for the hijab, I do know the Muslims here are having problems... or they're heading for problems. On another forum I attended, a poster emailed me that they "heard" that the Muslims were going to try and create their own state here in the U.S. ~ so I went online to hunt the info down. What they really "heard" was that the Islamic School of Rhode Island was going to be featured on a television show called "The Thirteenth State" and some people misunderstood the meaning, not realising that Rhode Island... is the 13th American state. Word on the streets is that guns have become a hot commodity ~ everyone's getting them now. Just what the world needs... a bunch of trigger-happy cowboys running around loose!

I personally hope I don't have to live long enough to see where all this is going.

Ninth Scribe

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

That was a great comment Ninth Scribe *applaud*.:)
:w::rose::peace:

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

sorry... *scribe

[abdul Majid]

terrorism and hajib DO NOT go together......:grumbling

[HeiGou]

Whatever amounts to sufficient evidence in any rational and reasonable estimate - and that obviously does not include trial by ordeals

Well I can see your objection to the trial by ordeal, but they were used at one point to estalbished guilt. As I said proof is culturally based and what is rational and reasonable even more so. Do you happen to have some idea of what judges have used in the past as evidence?

Not actually a means of proof, and this is only used for husband v. wife or wife v. husband claims of adultery. If both sides take the oath, then no punishment is given. So it is not taken as a standard of proof. It is actually closer to the fact that in most western courts a witness must take an oath before testimony.

So the question would be what if two people were involved in an accusation of rape, they both swear to their side of the story, they both go free, and then the woman turns out to be pregnant. What is the punishment for that?

And it seems to have been used in murder cases too.

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 398:

Narrated Sahl bin Abi Hathma:

'Abdullah bin Sahl and Muhaiyisa bin Mas'ud bin Zaid set out to Khaibar, the inhabitants of which had a peace treaty with the Muslims at that time. They parted and later on Muhaiyisa came upon 'Abdullah bin Sah! and found him murdered agitating in his blood. He buried him and returned to Medina. 'Abdur Rahman bin Sahl, Muhaiyisa and Huwaiuisa, the sons of Mas'ud came to the Prophet and 'Abdur Rahman intended to talk, but the Prophet said (to him), "Let the eldest of you speak." as 'Abdur-Rahman was the youngest:. 'Abdur-Rahman kept silent and the other two spoke. The Prophet said, "If you swear as to who has committed the murder, you will have the right to take your right from the murderer." They said, "How should we swear if we did not witness the murder or see the murderer?" The Prophet said, "Then the Jews can clear themselves from the charge by taking Alaska (an oath taken by men that it was not they who committed the murder)." The!y said, "How should we believe in the oaths of infidels?" So, the Prophet himself paid the blood money (of 'Abdullah). (See Hadith No. 36 Vol. 9.)

Absolutely. And that is an inherent problem in dealing with this crime. Ultimately it may come down to two conflicting testimonies, in which case there is not sufficient evidence to punish the accused, in any society.

Well that is not strictly true in the Western legal tradition. Juries can and do convict with no evidence whatsoever or at least just circumstantial evidence. I wonder if you have a reference to what an Islamic judge is supposed to do in this case?

Whether a woman wears revealing clothing or not, if she claims she was raped, then she will not be punished.

That is a bold statement covering what - the Islamic ideal or the Muslim practice?

But the clothes alone will not be evidence to convict the accused. A woman wearing modest clothing could just have easily consented as a woman wearning revealing clothing. In both cases the acused can not be convicted on such weak evidence.

Except we are back with a cultural definition of what is more likely - what is a judge more likely to believe: that someone dressed modestly was raped or someone dressed immodestly was? This forum has people who have asserted that if women dress immodestly they contribute to their rape. Is that an Islamic attitude?

This comment seems to indicate to me that you did not read my response to 'a single male judge' in our previous discussion on the topic. Are you not aware of the function of the advisory council? Or the opinions of the Hanafi, Jariri and Dhahiri madha-hib on the issue of female judges?

Doesn't look like I did. Have women judges ever sat in judgement since the death of Ali? If so where? And doesn't the Hanafi school only allow women judges in very limited areas of law where the hudd punishments are not inflicted?

I never said that. I said culture has nothing to do with it because culture doesn't make it more likely that someone committed a crime or not.

Surely it does.

Then you're statement lacked any evidence to back it up. If we don't know the number of unreported rapes then how can we say that someone who rapes in the US is more likely to be punished than someone who rapes in a Muslim country?

Because it is next to impossible to convict for rape in Muslim countries and we can look at behaviour - Muslim parents vote with their daughters' freedom by imposing stricter conditions that the Quran and Sunna lay down. This must be due to a general fear of assault and presumably they are not irrational.

So a pious girl cannot go shopping according to you?

Well, she can, but she is, presumably, less likely to.