Deck of cards

[jello]

:sl:

A Neo Darwinist once wrote that if a possibility is very remote, it does not mean that it is impossible. He then brought the example of a deck of cards, and one set is given to one person. Even though the chances are in the 0.00001 or less that the person would be given that exact sequence of cards, yet they were given that sequence.

So in th esame way it was argued that we can exist without God, and chance can also make us who we are.

I am not sure whether the people (Muslims) have heard of this, but it seems a bit strange argument, though I am not entirely sure how to answer it fully.

[jello]

:sl:

Has anyone confronted this type of question before ? Or is it the first time the Muslims here hear about it ?

[Mohsin]

I haven't come accross such an anology before, but example of a pack of cards is entirely different to that of life, i read a calculation somwhere that the chance of all this life coming together from nothing is something so small, 0.0000000..... and that there are so many 0's, that even if all the )'s were put into every atom in the universe, there 0's would still keep going. I'll get a source for this later, i'm not at home right now.
With cards, there is a definite amount of probabilities, you know the variables before hand. As long as it may take, you can still write down all the possible combinations. With the coming of the universe, no-one could have possibly guessed anything like this if they existed all the way back then.

[HeiGou]

I haven't come accross such an anology before, but example of a pack of cards is entirely different to that of life, i read a calculation somwhere that the chance of all this life coming together from nothing is something so small, 0.0000000..... and that there are so many 0's, that even if all the )'s were put into every atom in the universe, there 0's would still keep going. I'll get a source for this later, i'm not at home right now.
With cards, there is a definite amount of probabilities, you know the variables before hand. As long as it may take, you can still write down all the possible combinations. With the coming of the universe, no-one could have possibly guessed anything like this if they existed all the way back then.

I agree no one could have guessed what was going to happen if they lived all that time ago (apart from God I suppose). And it is true that the probabilities for creating life are not well known. But the analogy does hold. Yet you must not ask "What is the chance of getting a specific hand?", but "Having dealt a specific hand, what is the chance you hold that specific hand?" This is where Dr Naik's argument from improbability falls down (and I assume he is well aware of it). Life exists - the hand has been dealt. What are the chances that there is intelligent life on Earth? Well I am here, you are there, we do a fairly good imitation of intelligent life - the chances are roughly one. If you deal a hand, let's say it is Ace, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Jack, Queen, King all in spades. The chances at the start of that particular hand are astronomical. But once you have dealt it, what are the chances that you hold it - well obviously you're holding it.

So for this argument to work you would need to be able to rewind the history of the Universe until we were all protoplasm and run it again. If it created the same world we have today with me sitting here and you sitting there, that would be a miracle. But we can't. If we could find intelligent life on another planet, and it was exactly the same as us, that would be fairly miraculous. But so far we haven't.

There are any number of good reasons to believe in God or to be a Muslim or whatever. This is not one of them. It is feeble and intellectually mediocre.

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[*Hana*]

Using the analogy of a deck of cards means you are using only one specific item to figure out the probability of one particular outcome. The chances of being dealt an exact sequence in the exact suit would be highly unlikely, but not impossible. However, the chances of everything on earth being created just so and so specific to not only create life, but to sustain it to the point that if you alter some to the slightest degree, it no longer sustains. And, for all that to happen by chance….there is no way you could measure that. So you can say, “what are the chances the sun just happened to be the correct distance from the earth and the right temperature to give light and warmth?” That’s one thing and one probability. Then, what are the chances the earth developed at just the right tilt and rotation. That’s another probability. And, say another of what are the chances that just the right amount of oxygen was created, by chance, to sustain life. Again, one thing, one probability. The list can go on and on. However, the more probabilities you present, the more it becomes less and less probable that everything was created “by chance”. As the brother said, the probability of all that is virtually impossible to calculate. What I’m trying to say is that you would have to figure out the probability of all things, then try to figure out what the chances are that ALL those things would come together EXACTLY right to sustain life.

There's one that knows....Allah, swt, the creator of ALL things.

Hmmmm, I have in my head what I’m trying to say….I hope you understand it. lol

Wasalam,
Hana

[HeiGou]

Using the analogy of a deck of cards means you are using only one specific item to figure out the probability of one particular outcome. The chances of being dealt an exact sequence in the exact suit would be highly unlikely, but not impossible.

But again, you are not comparing the correct possibility. If you sit down and start to deal, the chances of dealing an exact sequence in an exact suit are vanishingly small. But suppose you pick up your hand once it has been dealt and it turns out to be an exact sequence in an exact suit, what are the chances of that? Well one. You already hold that exact sequence in that exact suit. It has happened.

However, the chances of everything on earth being created just so and so specific to not only create life, but to sustain it to the point that if you alter some to the slightest degree, it no longer sustains. And, for all that to happen by chance….there is no way you could measure that.

It is difficult to measure, but we know it happened once. It has already happened. We are here. We also know that it has not happened elsewhere in so far as we can tell. There are about 7 × 10^22 stars in about 100 billion galaxies, in the Universe (that is a 7 followed by 22 zeros, so seventy thousand billion billion stars). This star, the Sun, has three planets where life could be supported, plus some moons perhaps. You do the figures.

So you can say, “what are the chances the sun just happened to be the correct distance from the earth and the right temperature to give light and warmth?” That’s one thing and one probability.

"Correct" for us. If it was not that distance we would either not have evolved, or would have evolved differently. But we are here. What are the chances that the Sun is the right distance away - precisely one. We are here and that proves it. In one out of 7X10^22 stars there is intelligent life as far as we know. That is pretty wasteful.

However, the more probabilities you present, the more it becomes less and less probable that everything was created “by chance”.

No it does not. After all we are here. If we were not here we would not be here. Obviously we are, and so it follows that the Earth is on the right tilt etc. The deck of cards has been dealt already.

[*Hana*]

No it does not. After all we are here. If we were not here we would not be here. Obviously we are, and so it follows that the Earth is on the right tilt etc. The deck of cards has been dealt already.

You are totally missing the point. We being here doesn't prove it happened by chance. The sun being a specific distance, doesn't mean it happened by chance. It is virtually impossible to guess at the probability of all that just "happening". However, if there were ONE that knew EVERYTHING that was required to sustain life and created it, the probability that he alone created it, are rather good. As it happens, there is one and only ONE, Allah, swt.

Hana

[HeiGou]

You are totally missing the point. We being here doesn't prove it happened by chance. The sun being a specific distance, doesn't mean it happened by chance. It is virtually impossible to guess at the probability of all that just "happening". However, if there were ONE that knew EVERYTHING that was required to sustain life and created it, the probability that he alone created it, are rather good. As it happens, there is one and only ONE, Allah, swt.

It does not prove it has happened by chance, but it proves that the argument that it is so improbable that it is proof of God's existence is false.

The sun is not a specific distance. It is the right distance for us, right now.

If there was an All-Powerful, All-Knowing Being, who knew all that was required and had the ability to create the Earth, the chances would be pretty good that He did. You assume His existence, consequences follow. But it cannot then be used as proof of His existence as you have assumed it to begin with.

[*Hana*]

No one can prove or disprove the existance of God. Science has never been able to do it. So when you take what we believe, beliefs stretching back as far as man existed, that there is ONE, and if this ONE knows everything, the probability that HE created it, is much more convincing.

The sun is not a specific distance. It is the right distance for us, right now.

So, I ask you, what is that probability that it is the right distance for us, right now???

You assume His existence, consequences follow. But it cannot then be used as proof of His existence as you have assumed it to begin with.

Not only I, but as I said, from the beginning of man, there has always been the belief in a higher power. Aboriginal tribes that had NO contact with outside sources believe in ONE creator, for an example. Who influenced them? Where did this idea originate? You think all people, all over the world came up with the same idea at the same time? Even before man knew of all the other continents? The existance of a Creator is not a new trend. So, yes, I have far more reason to believe the ONE that knew is the ONE that created. In the end, you are partially correct in that because His existance cannot be absolutely proven, I have faith and believe it does. Until someone can prove otherwise, I will side the higher probability that Allah, swt, is the true creator.

Hana

[HeiGou]

No one can prove or disprove the existance of God. Science has never been able to do it. So when you take what we believe, beliefs stretching back as far as man existed, that there is ONE, and if this ONE knows everything, the probability that HE created it, is much more convincing.

No one has been able to prove His existence. No one has been able to disprove His existence. We are agreed on that. Perhaps one day scientists will. In the meantime it is probably a good idea for scientists to assume that God has left no traces, no signs, no "fingerprints" and work on that basis.

Except I do not accept that is what Mankind has always believed since the earliest days. Monotheism is fairly recent and for most of human existence people seem to have got by fine without it. It is only recently that even a majority of humans became monotheists.

So, I ask you, what is that probability that it is the right distance for us, right now???

Well I was born in a much warmer climate so I have to say - not close enough!!!!

But precisely one. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

Not only I, but as I said, from the beginning of man, there has always been the belief in a higher power. Aboriginal tribes that had NO contact with outside sources believe in ONE creator, for an example. Who influenced them?

I do not accept that Aboriginal tribes do believe in any such thing. And of course the Europeans and probably missionaries who contacted them.

If we were arguing about what is "natural" for humans to believe, I would argue that most humans have been polytheists through-out history. It seems to suit humans very well - so much so that monotheists will tend to "poly" if left alone. The Muslim world, until recently, was covered in shrines and Sufi retreats and the like. All clearly speaking to some deep need in Muslims even though they are forbidden to do this.

Where did this idea originate?

Somewhere in Palestine I hear.

You think all people, all over the world came up with the same idea at the same time? Even before man knew of all the other continents?

Absolutely not. Because they did not. Noone has ever come up with the idea of monotheism without meeting people who met Jews.

In the end, you are partially correct in that because His existance cannot be absolutely proven, I have faith and believe it does.

I am not interested in interfering with your beliefs. If you have faith I feel happy for you and would support you in your beliefs. But I am optimistic, I think one day humans will be able to prove or disprove the existence of God. It is all a matter of asking the right questions and performing the right experiments. If only I knew what they were.

[root]

No one can prove or disprove the existance of God. Science has never been able to do it. So when you take what we believe, beliefs stretching back as far as man existed, that there is ONE, and if this ONE knows everything, the probability that HE created it, is much more convincing.

No one can prove/disprove a kettle orbits the earth does it imply that it then exists?

Belief does NOT stretch back as far as man existed (why do you think that), it only stretches back 40,000 years!

So, I ask you, what is that probability that it is the right distance for us, right now???

A dead cert if you consider the infinate number of solar system formations within the known universe, not only is it a dead cert but it is a dead cert that it has happened time and time and time again.

[*Hana*]

Actually, yes, belief in God does goes that far back. I didn't say anything about monotheists. I'm talking about belief in a creator. The fact is, even the vast majority of polytheists who believe in many gods, believe there is still ONE over all of them. One that is all powerful. THe "leader" of the gods type of thing.

I will paste some of what Ahmed Deedat has explained here in his book, What is His Name?:

Every African tribe, South of the Zambesi River, that is, in Southern Africa, have given different names to the Almighty - Tixo, Modimo, uNkulunkulu, etc., and each and every African language group will take pains to explain the same pure and holy concept as the Zulu. It is to the glory of the African nations that though they had no written languages, and hence no written records, therefore not being able to recount the names of their respective prophets, yet not a single one of the tribes ever stooped down to worshipping idols or images of either of men or animals, until the White man first introduced his religion and gave the African his anthropomorphic concept of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, and brought the African down to bowing before the statues of Jesus, Mary, St. Joseph, St. Christopher and so on.

Out of the dozens of African tribes inhabiting this part of the world, not a single one of them ever made "umfanegisos" (images) of their God. Yet they were capable of carving out of wood, elephants and lions, and reproducing men and women also, in clay. Besides, the Zulus also had some knowledge of metallurgy. When questioned an old Zulu as to the reason, why the Africans did not make umfanegisos of their Gods, he replied, "How could we make images of Him (God Almighty) when we know that He is not like a man, He is not like a monkey, or an elephant or a snake: He is not like anything we can think of or imagine. He is a pure and Holy Spirit."

From the Aboriginals: Do we need an Australoid (the aborigine of South Africa) to remind us? Indeed, we do! In this battle for the hearts and minds of people, we need his "Atnatu." In his simple rustic language, in his childish puerile way, he is telling the world that his God eats not. That the one who eats can never be his God, because he would not be ATNATU. Our primitive brother had no inhibitions. He called a spade a spade. The translation of "Atnatu" is (and I'm sure you'll get a chuckle, but it's the truth), He is independant; He needs no food nor drink. This quality, in his primitive, un-inhibited language, he conversely named ATNATU, which literally meant "the One without an anus - the One without any flaw" - i.e. the One from Whom no impurity flows or emanates.

Well I was born in a much warmer climate so I have to say - not close enough!!!!

But precisely one. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

One out of what??

And, coming from -26 with the windchill today, I'd have to agree, but what would the consequences of that shift mean?

I disagree that science will ever prove or disprove His existence. We'll all know for sure on the day of judgement.

The other thing I know for sure, is that if I keep making these long posts from work, I'll be on the unemployment line....and the probability of that is much higher than what we're discussing. :p

So, to argue the existance of God is absolutely pointless. You cannot prove with 100% certainty He doesn't exist, and I can't prove with 100% certainty He does. But I do feel the odds are in my favour. ;)

Hana

[Mohsin]

So for this argument to work you would need to be able to rewind the history of the Universe until we were all protoplasm and run it again. If it created the same world we have today with me sitting here and you sitting there, that would be a miracle. But we can't. If we could find intelligent life on another planet, and it was exactly the same as us, that would be fairly miraculous. But so far we haven't.

I'm a bit confused, can you plz explain the above quote i dnt think i understand. The fact that there is no life on any other planet, or at least anything similar to us, is what makes us so miraculous. If we had come by chance then surely similarly there would be life on other planets aswel like there is here. The fact that we don't should make us think that how is it that only us humans and earth have evolved this way but nowhere us, have only we come by chance and kept evoloving and the fittest survived until we reached this stage. Rather it makes me think that we must have come from God. Had there be other similar forms to us on other planets that would give evolution more weight and greater argument

[akulion]

The theory of probablity can not be used to prove God does not exist this has been well established since no one would be willing to believe that there is a universe in which Buildings are living beings and live inside human beings (which by the way holds an equal probability to our existance according to probability theory)

[root]

Actually, yes, belief in God does goes that far back. I didn't say anything about monotheists. I'm talking about belief in a creator. The fact is, even the vast majority of polytheists who believe in many gods, believe there is still ONE over all of them. One that is all powerful. THe "leader" of the gods type of thing.

Your right that many cultures spoke about a god of some sorts, however it was interesting to note that your post failed to provide any dates & you simply claim that it does go that far back when all the archeological evidence tells us that beyond 40,000 years (the time of the great leap) No such thoughts existed.

[HeiGou]

Originally Posted by HeiGou [Link only for registered members]
So for this argument to work you would need to be able to rewind the history of the Universe until we were all protoplasm and run it again. If it created the same world we have today with me sitting here and you sitting there, that would be a miracle. But we can't. If we could find intelligent life on another planet, and it was exactly the same as us, that would be fairly miraculous. But so far we haven't.

I'm a bit confused, can you plz explain the above quote i dnt think i understand. The fact that there is no life on any other planet, or at least anything similar to us, is what makes us so miraculous. If we had come by chance then surely similarly there would be life on other planets aswel like there is here. The fact that we don't should make us think that how is it that only us humans and earth have evolved this way but nowhere us, have only we come by chance and kept evoloving and the fittest survived until we reached this stage. Rather it makes me think that we must have come from God. Had there be other similar forms to us on other planets that would give evolution more weight and greater argument

It is not really a fact but a supposition. If we had come here as part of a Grand Design, surely God would not use just one planet around one Sun and waste the other 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 suns would He? That would be a little wasteful. It gets worse. The Universe has been around for roughly 13,900,000,000 years. Islam has existed for about 1,400 of those. That is a huge waste of time don't you think?

It is more likely to be a sign of how unlikely it is that Life evolved on just the right planet, just the right distance from the Sun etc etc. The chances of it happening are obviously small. But the Universe is an awfully big place and it has had a long time for us to work up to this point.

But alien life on other planets would confirm some beliefs and dispell others. Would the three Abrahamic religions accept them as part of God's creation? We are made in God's image - are litle green men with tentacles and three eyes? But if they are just like us in every way, then that would be proof of something.

[aakhirah]

We believe in Allah without any proof. That is what Islaam and Imaan demand of us. Those who believe don't have sealed hearts, alHamdulillah.

Therefore, we don't need to delve into complicated matters. It's really so simple...

[HeiGou]

We believe in Allah without any proof. That is what Islaam and Imaan demand of us. Those who believe don't have sealed hearts, alHamdulillah.

Not sealed hearts it seems.

Therefore, we don't need to delve into complicated matters. It's really so simple...

Absolutely.

Of course I think this tends to be a problem. But to say you have faith and are not interested in proof is a reasonable reason to be a Muslim.