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mahdisoldier19
03-04-2006, 05:49 AM
Assalam Alaikam

Its strange and funny to see some of the Non muslims on this board say OH IF I SAID THIS ABOUT THE QURAN i would be banned. No you wouldnt i would LOVE to hear what you can try to put out on the Quran. There is not a single contradiction in the Quran. Or any areas of error in any established science or any aspects of life described in the Quran.

Now i would like to ask those non muslim friends, what can you possibly come up with against the Quran?
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yasin
03-04-2006, 07:04 AM
one thing that should be unacceptable however is negative emotive opinions on a religion.

such as 'the pen lid religion is a pile of rubbish you have to be a freak to believe it' etc etc.

There's a difference between slander and questioning
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mahdisoldier19
03-04-2006, 07:06 AM
Im testing to see if they can bring any sort of proof against the truth?
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yasin
03-04-2006, 07:14 AM
may i ask then, a question i get from Atheists is-

You follow Islam right, if it's such a peaceful and great religion then why do so many followers believe killing non-Muslims is right?


and anothetr i get from Christians is 'we have no reference of your prophet or religion therefore naturally we believe your religion is false'
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HeiGou
03-04-2006, 12:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Im testing to see if they can bring any sort of proof against the truth?
Your are posting on an Islamic website. Even discussing these topics would lead to a ban in the end. If you are serious about this test, why not go to a Christian site or an Apostate one?

Besides, Muslims are not stupid, any more than Christians are. If there were "contradictions" in the Quran Muslim scholars would have noticed them years ago and explained why they do not appear to say what they appear to say. Just as Christians have done. There must be a reason for why the Quran gives two different lengths of time for the creation of the Earth. I do not know what it is, but I am not so stupid as to think it means the Quran contains an error.

007.054
YUSUFALI: Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
PICKTHAL: Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!
SHAKIR: Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

Compared to,

041.009
YUSUFALI: Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
SHAKIR: Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds.

041.010
YUSUFALI: He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
PICKTHAL: He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
SHAKIR: And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods: alike for the seekers.

041.011
YUSUFALI: Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
PICKTHAL: Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.
SHAKIR: Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.

041.012
YUSUFALI: So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
PICKTHAL: Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.
SHAKIR: So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

Presumably Muslims just think God can multi-task.
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The Ruler
03-04-2006, 12:13 PM
Presumably Muslims just think God can multi-task.
Allah is All-Powerful and so He can do multi-task wats rong bout dat?:confused:

sum humans can do multi task such as watch da tele n do hmwk n lisen to music as well. :rollseyes

im NOT comparing Allah to humans.....but wat im tryin to say is dat as Allah is ALL-Powerful...u no wat it means! :)

:w:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-04-2006, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Presumably Muslims just think God can multi-task.
*YAWN*
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...contradictions
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal..._the_Universe/
Reply

mahdisoldier19
03-04-2006, 05:28 PM
Heigou,

Accept it or you can deny it. Islam is the truth WE HEAR AND OBEY ONLY THE PROPHETS WAY WE hear and obey

And please read the rebuttal because whenever we give rebuttals SOME STILL Deny it. idk Allah swt closed your hearts tooooooooo much .
Reply

yasin
03-05-2006, 05:18 AM
hi, may i please point to thequestions i usually get from atheists?

i would appreciate it if people could help me answer those quesitons
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HeiGou
03-05-2006, 10:39 AM
My point exactly. Whatever "contradictions" people might claim to find, Muslim scholars, just like Christian ones, have been there first and explained why it is as it is.
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mahdisoldier19
03-05-2006, 06:02 PM
When i point out my contradictions of the bible. Christian scholars cant explain it. Have you ever even watch Zakir Naik vs Dr William campbell ( christian scholar who himself didnt know)

Hes challenged thousands of christian scholars and none has even pass the simple christian test.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-05-2006, 07:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
My point exactly. Whatever "contradictions" people might claim to find, Muslim scholars, just like Christian ones, have been there first and explained why it is as it is.
I do agree about Muslim scholars, but like mahdisoldier19, I know that Christians have a little more difficulty explaining away Biblical contradictions. No one disputes the fact that there are "scribal errors" in the Bible.

Regards
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HeiGou
03-06-2006, 11:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I do agree about Muslim scholars, but like mahdisoldier19, I know that Christians have a little more difficulty explaining away Biblical contradictions. No one disputes the fact that there are "scribal errors" in the Bible.
Well most Christians argue that the Bible is "inspired" and so a few typos do not matter. But mainly, of course, scholars have worked on the Bible and they have not been executed or forced into hiding. So Christians have tended to stop denying that there are. Nonetheless scholars have explained away those errors.

More to the point, the Quran is Muhammed's main miracle. Jesus' Resurrection is the main point of Christianity. So an errror in the Bible means little as long as Jesus rose from the dead. An error in the Quran would be fatal for Islam.
Reply

cihad
03-06-2006, 03:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
007.054
YUSUFALI: Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
PICKTHAL: Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!
SHAKIR: Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

Compared to,

[indent]041.009
YUSUFALI: Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
SHAKIR: Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds.

041.010
YUSUFALI: He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
PICKTHAL: He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
SHAKIR: And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods: alike for the seekers.

.
2+4=6 :rollseyes

6 is the total number of days it took
2 days to create the world itself
4 days to add the rest of the things in

at least thats how i see it.
Reply

HeiGou
03-06-2006, 05:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cihad
2+4=6 :rollseyes

6 is the total number of days it took
2 days to create the world itself
4 days to add the rest of the things in

at least thats how i see it.
Hey - no fair! You cut part of it.

007.054
YUSUFALI: Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
PICKTHAL: Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!
SHAKIR: Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

Compared to,

041.009
YUSUFALI: Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
SHAKIR: Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds.

041.010
YUSUFALI: He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
PICKTHAL: He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
SHAKIR: And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods: alike for the seekers.

041.011
YUSUFALI: Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
PICKTHAL: Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.
SHAKIR: Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.

041.012
YUSUFALI: So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
PICKTHAL: Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.
SHAKIR: So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.
Reply

j4763
03-06-2006, 05:50 PM
Why not mention of the dinosuars in the quran (or in any holy book)?
Reply

------
03-06-2006, 05:52 PM
I'm not quite sure...! :confused:
Reply

HeiGou
03-06-2006, 06:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
Why not mention of the dinosuars in the quran (or in any holy book)?
Or, as I said, America? Or the fact that the Sun is at the center of the Solar System? Or that disease is spread by germs - think how useful that would have been.

God must have His reasons.
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mahdisoldier19
03-06-2006, 08:45 PM
It seems heigou takes peoples interpertations and says OH CONTRADICTION! im sorry those are the peoples error not God. Its sad what people are up to these days
Reply

HeiGou
03-06-2006, 08:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
It seems heigou takes peoples interpertations and says OH CONTRADICTION! im sorry those are the peoples error not God. Its sad what people are up to these days
It seems no such thing as I am perfectly clear in my post that I do not think that any Muslims think there are any contradictions in the Quran. In fact what I am doing is the exact opposite of your claim - I say what appear to be Quranic contradictions must, in fact, have been explained by Muslim scholars and so they are not contradictions.

You will notice my only quote there is from the Quran without a human being's words in sight.

Now I can accept that you do not like me or my posts, but I think that basic decency requires you to be honest about what I say.
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mahdisoldier19
03-06-2006, 08:59 PM
Just curious what post are you refering to?
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HeiGou
03-06-2006, 09:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Just curious what post are you refering to?
I think, considering you are picking on me, the question ought to be which post are you thinking of? You made the attack.

But what I had in mind was this

Besides, Muslims are not stupid, any more than Christians are. If there were "contradictions" in the Quran Muslim scholars would have noticed them years ago and explained why they do not appear to say what they appear to say. Just as Christians have done. There must be a reason for why the Quran gives two different lengths of time for the creation of the Earth. I do not know what it is, but I am not so stupid as to think it means the Quran contains an error.
Reply

mahdisoldier19
03-06-2006, 09:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
My point exactly. Whatever "contradictions" people might claim to find, Muslim scholars, just like Christian ones, have been there first and explained why it is as it is.

Again it seems Heigou cant understand what i mean. What i meant to say is that christian scholars CANNOT explain their bible.

What i meant to project was people who say OH CONTRADICTION! dont read the quran with understanding. In the bible EVEN IF YOU READ WITH UNDERSTANDING there is contradiction.

But i think was wrong somewhere yeah your right Heigou cool beans.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-07-2006, 01:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Well most Christians argue that the Bible is "inspired" and so a few typos do not matter. But mainly, of course, scholars have worked on the Bible and they have not been executed or forced into hiding. So Christians have tended to stop denying that there are. Nonetheless scholars have explained away those errors.
If you check the link I gave, you will see that there remains a number that have not been sufficiently answered.

So an errror in the Bible means little as long as Jesus rose from the dead.
If the gospels are corrupted and unreliable, how would we know if Jesus rose from the dead? The Bible's [claimed] inerrancy is integral to Christianitly as well.
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mahdisoldier19
03-07-2006, 01:36 AM
Does the bible even mention jesus being crucified or the trinity?
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j4763
03-07-2006, 10:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Assalam Alaikam
Now i would like to ask those non muslim friends, what can you possibly come up with against the Quran?
So questions have been asked but as of yet no answers.

Why there are their contradictions with the time it spent creating the earth?
Why there is no mention of dinosaurs?
Why there is no mention of germs?

:? :? :?
Reply

HeiGou
03-07-2006, 11:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Again it seems Heigou cant understand what i mean. What i meant to say is that christian scholars CANNOT explain their bible.

What i meant to project was people who say OH CONTRADICTION! dont read the quran with understanding. In the bible EVEN IF YOU READ WITH UNDERSTANDING there is contradiction.
How do you know? You have no understanding. The world is full of Christians and they, or many of them, do not seem to have a problem with it. Surely you must accept that they think there are no contradictions. As you do not share their understanding, how can you judge?

Not of course that the Bible is as important to Christians as the Quran is to Muslims.
Reply

HeiGou
03-07-2006, 11:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Does the bible even mention jesus being crucified or the trinity?
Certainly the Crucifiction.

John.19
[1] Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.
[2] And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,
[3] And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.
[4] Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him.
[5] Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!
[6] When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
[7] The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
[8] When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
[9] And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.
[10] Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
[11] Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
[12] And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
[13] When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
[14] And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
[15] But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priest answered, We have no king but Caesar.
[16] Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
[17] And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
[18] Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.
[19] And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
[20] This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
[21] Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
[22] Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.
[23] Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
[24] They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
[25] Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
[26] When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
[27] Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
[28] After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
[29] Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
[31] The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
[32] Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
[33] But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
[34] But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
[35] And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
[36] For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
[37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
[38] And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
[39] And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
[40] Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
[41] Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
[42] There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

And the Resurrection too to stave off the next question

John.20
[1] The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
[2] Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
[3] Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
[4] So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
[5] And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
[6] Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
[7] And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
[8] Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
[9] For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
[10] Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
[11] But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
[12] And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
[13] And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.
[14] And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
[15] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
[16] Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
[17] Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
[18] Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
[19] Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
[20] And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
[21] Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
[23] Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
[24] But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
[25] The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
[26] And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
[27] Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
[29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
[30] And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
[31] But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Reply

sargon
03-07-2006, 01:38 PM
Those verses say that both the earth and the heavens were created in six days, 2 for the earth exactly, two for the heavens/sky exactly and 4 for putting things on the earth.

Day 1 - Creation of Earth.
Day 2 - Creation of Earth.
Day 3 - Creation of the things on earth.
Day 4 - Creation of the things on earth.
Day 5 - Creation of Sky and the things on Earth.
Day 6 - Creation of Sky and the things on Earth.

-or-

Day 1 - Creation of Earth and the things on Earth.
Day 2 - Creation of Earth and the things on Earth.
Day 3 - Creation of the things on earth.
Day 4 - Creation of the things on earth.
Day 5 - Creation of Sky.
Day 6 - Creation of Sky.

There could also be other ways it happened but my point is that it took a total of 6 days, and God did multiple things at once apparently. I think it would be that the total creation of earth and everything in it took 4 days, and sky/heaven took 2 days.

http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal..._the_Universe/

And Dinosaurs have little do with worshipping God soooo... what if the Quran had a list of all species on Earth? Or from other worlds? Some things we can figure out ourselves, the Quran is guidance about how to worship and live in accordance to God's will, not a scientific manual of the universe.

Germs wouldn't be too much of a problem if you do ablution 5 or more times a day, pray for health, etc... Islam was a for-runner in the medical industry if I'm not mistaken as well, didn't a Muslim provide the first map of the human body or something?

"Day" can also mean "Period of time," but is translated as day sometimes.
Reply

j4763
03-07-2006, 01:44 PM
So did god create two people (Adam and Eve) before or after the dinosaurs?
Reply

j4763
03-07-2006, 01:48 PM
Or did he create loads of people all at once?
Reply

Mohsin
03-07-2006, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
So did god create two people (Adam and Eve) before or after the dinosaurs?

It's irrelevant and unimportant, what's it got to do with anything?

Firstly there are verses that refer to beats scattered accross the earth, that some people say could possibly refer to dinosaurs, but it doesn't prove anything

Secondly all we know is that Adam PBUH was the first man on earth, that's all god has told us, in his infinite wisdom for whatever reason we have not been told when Adam PBUh came to earth. It maybe dinosaurs were on earth fist then were destroyed then adam PBUH came, or maybe Adam PBUH was around already on other parts of the earth, Allah alone knows best, but who cares, it doesn't prove or disprove anything

Or did he create loads of people all at once?
God created Adam PBUH, and from him Eve was created. after that every person was born like people are born today
Reply

mahdisoldier19
03-07-2006, 07:57 PM
Wow , a person whos a christian. How can one believe that God died for human beings? God died for his own creation? i dont know wow eh.

Walakam salam

thats just my opinion
Reply

Andaraawus
03-07-2006, 08:08 PM
Anti Venom Publications (click the red button) will never shy away from such issues ..... you will not get banned ... i dont think you would here either...its just that youre not allowed to quote from Anti Islamc sources due to the fact we have the Muslim bashers that throw every body elses material at you and have nothing to say of their own back ....wasalams
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j4763
03-07-2006, 09:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Moss
God created Adam PBUH, and from him Eve was created. after that every person was born like people are born today
Does that mean adams offspring committed insest? Is this allowed in islam?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-07-2006, 09:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
Does that mean adams offspring committed insest? Is this allowed in islam?
First, Adam and Eve were not identical to their descendants. They were special in that they had the material within them for all future ethnic groups.

Second, due to the exceptional nature of their circumstances and condition, their immediate children were not bound by the same laws that future generations would be bound by.
Reply

sevenxtrust
03-10-2006, 05:10 AM
OK, I'll be easy on you...

Number of creation days: 8 (Sura 41:9-12) or
6 (Suras 7:51; 10:3

So is it 6 or 8? Once you answer this I have many more questions..

Thank You.
Reply

sevenxtrust
03-10-2006, 05:12 AM
So who exactly is the author of the Quran?



AUTHORSHIP: It is difficult to even know who the author of the Quran truly is. Was it Allah (Suras 53:2-18; 81:19-24), or the holy spirit (Suras 16:102; 26:192-194), or Angels (Sura 15:8), or just the Angel Gabriel (Sura 2:97)?
Reply

renak
03-10-2006, 05:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Does the bible even mention jesus being crucified or the trinity?
In all honesty, it depends on which version of the bible you read. There are too many versions to even list. Also, the bible is "updated" and retranslated every few years, by different sources.

From my research, I do not feel that the original books of the bible mentioned the trinity. The crucifixion was mentioned, but not in the manner that it is portrayed in the King James Version (most common christian translation), and more current versions. Of course, we also need to remember that the Holy Bible was written by MAN.
Reply

Nicola
03-10-2006, 08:13 AM
Of course, we also need to remember that the Holy Bible was written by MAN.
We know the Bible is made up of our Laws, commandents from God how we should lead our life etc..the History of Israel, Poetry..and of course Prophecy.

If you mean that man used his own hands, fingers for the scribes to be written...of course it was written by man in that sence...but the Prophets where lead by God...man would not have been able to know the future without God telling them either what kind of perfect laws God wanted for mankind.

What denomination of Christianity are you? if you don't mind me asking...I would be interested in researching it.

Because I have never heard of any Christian denomination believe that man alone wrote the Bible..that is, if thats what you meant.
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Mohsin
03-10-2006, 08:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevenxtrust
OK, I'll be easy on you...

Number of creation days: 8 (Sura 41:9-12) or
6 (Suras 7:51; 10:3

So is it 6 or 8? Once you answer this I have many more questions..

Thank You.
Go here http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ons-quran.html

The Number of Days Taken to Create the Universe- http://www.islamicboard.com/11727-post18.html
Reply

renak
03-10-2006, 08:39 AM
Yes, I did mean that man alone wrote the bible. I am unitarian.
Reply

Nicola
03-10-2006, 08:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by renak
Yes, I did mean that man alone wrote the bible. I am unitarian.
I see...I saw Christian on you profile and persumed you where one.

thanks for clarifying.
are you Biblical Unitarianism or Unitarian Universalism?
Reply

sevenxtrust
03-10-2006, 02:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevenxtrust
So who exactly is the author of the Quran?



AUTHORSHIP: It is difficult to even know who the author of the Quran truly is. Was it Allah (Suras 53:2-18; 81:19-24), or the holy spirit (Suras 16:102; 26:192-194), or Angels (Sura 15:8), or just the Angel Gabriel (Sura 2:97)?
Thank you for the answer to the amount of creation days, but what about this above question. I am awaiting your response.

Thnk You
SevenXtrust
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-10-2006, 03:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevenxtrust
So who exactly is the author of the Quran?



AUTHORSHIP: It is difficult to even know who the author of the Quran truly is. Was it Allah (Suras 53:2-18; 81:19-24), or the holy spirit (Suras 16:102; 26:192-194), or Angels (Sura 15:8), or just the Angel Gabriel (Sura 2:97)?
Hello sevenxtrust,
I refuted all of these allegations a long time ago. Please read the long list here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...contradictions
As for the present allegation, I'll point out briefly then the Qur'an never says that anyone other than Allah was the author, not even in the verses mentioned.
Reply

renak
03-10-2006, 03:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
I see...I saw Christian on you profile and persumed you where one.

thanks for clarifying.
are you Biblical Unitarianism or Unitarian Universalism?
I am Unitarian Universalist, and yes it is a Christian sect.
Reply

Maimunah
03-10-2006, 07:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by renak
I am Unitarian Universalist, and yes it is a Christian sect.
what exactly do Unitarian Universalist beleive in then?
i mean like is it same as catholic?
salaam
Reply

czgibson
03-10-2006, 08:10 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
First, Adam and Eve were not identical to their descendants.
Presumably you men this in a different sense to that in which I am not identical to my parents, for example.

They were special in that they had the material within them for all future ethnic groups.
So were they human?

Second, due to the exceptional nature of their circumstances and condition, their immediate children were not bound by the same laws that future generations would be bound by.
That's amazingly convenient. Does Allah specifically mention this?

One reason some of us are curious to know when Adam and Eve existed is that that knowledge would make them a lot more credible. Imagine scientists told us that dinosaurs existed, but they didn't have any idea when. Wouldn't you then have doubts about whether dinosaurs existed?

It's related to the question of how old you believe the Earth to be. It would be interesting to hear some suggestions on that. Does the Qur'an give any information on it?

Peace
Reply

anis_z24
03-14-2006, 07:25 PM
Salam,
do you know why many people are athesits, because their religion doesnt put science and faith together. and Islam does just that. thats why they will try to disprove the existance of God. because their religion proclaims the existance of God, and the followers are to follow with faith and nothing else to believe in.
Reply

czgibson
03-14-2006, 08:08 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by anis_z24
Salam,
do you know why many people are athesits, because their religion doesnt put science and faith together. and Islam does just that. thats why they will try to disprove the existance of God. because their religion proclaims the existance of God, and the followers are to follow with faith and nothing else to believe in.
I can't make any sense out of this post. Could you perhaps elaborate?

Thanks

Peace
Reply

Mohsin
03-14-2006, 09:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I can't make any sense out of this post. Could you perhaps elaborate?

Thanks

Peace

Lol, i can't either
Reply

anis_z24
03-14-2006, 09:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I can't make any sense out of this post. Could you perhaps elaborate?

Thanks

Peace
Salam,
sorry***
I meant that many people become athesits because their religion tells them to believe, and that believe changes, science doesnt. ex. the Cathlics, when they killed people who believed that the earth was egg shaped,

-and that Islam is meant for all times and places,
Reply

czgibson
03-14-2006, 11:33 PM
Greetings anis,
format_quote Originally Posted by anis_z24
Salam,
sorry***
I meant that many people become athesits because their religion tells them to believe,
I don't have a religion, unless you count atheism as a religion (in which case it's a pretty strange one).

and that believe changes, science doesnt.
Science changes all the time - as new discoveries are made, theories are adapted.

ex. the Cathlics, when they killed people who believed that the earth was egg shaped,
I've never heard about this - it's very interesting, though - can you tell me more?

-and that Islam is meant for all times and places,
Maybe so, but surely it's fair to say that people's interpretations of it are liable to change?

Peace
Reply

mahdisoldier19
03-15-2006, 02:22 AM
You didnt know about the Church that wiped out the christians in europe for believing the earth was round?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-15-2006, 04:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
So were they human?
Yes they were human, but they must have been very different from us if their descendants were able to diversify into various ethnicities. Or perhaps some aspect of evolution/adaptation had a role here? God knows best.

That's amazingly convenient. Does Allah specifically mention this?
It's mentioned in the hadith that the son from one pair of twins would marry the daughter from another.

One reason some of us are curious to know when Adam and Eve existed is that that knowledge would make them a lot more credible. Imagine scientists told us that dinosaurs existed, but they didn't have any idea when. Wouldn't you then have doubts about whether dinosaurs existed?
I'm not sure I would, but at any rate I'll concede your point and suggest a range of 1 million to 2 million years ago.
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HeiGou
03-15-2006, 10:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
You didnt know about the Church that wiped out the christians in europe for believing the earth was round?
Well no. There has never been a time when the Catholic Church as denied that the Earth was round. You are confusing this with Galileo's problems when he asserted that the Earth was not at the center of the Solar System. For which he was not burnt but placed under hosue arrest.
Reply

Abu Zakariya
03-15-2006, 02:23 PM
People that believed in one God (instead of a tri-une one) however, they were burnt. Even by Protestants.
Reply

root
03-15-2006, 03:05 PM
Yes they were human, but they must have been very different from us if their descendants were able to diversify into various ethnicities. Or perhaps some aspect of evolution/adaptation had a role here? God knows best.
Ansar, what kind of answer is this. Your making an assumption simply to fit the picture of your own belief? In my mind you have simply been backed into a corner and now playing your "get out of jail for free" card by stating "Allah knows best".

In your post earlier you stated adam and eve were different because they had "material" in them for future enthic divergance may I ask what is the material?

I'm not sure I would, but at any rate I'll concede your point and suggest a range of 1 million to 2 million years ago.
Can I ask how you arrive at these figures, surely they are not just "plucked" from thin air! and must have some logic that leads you to believe this. If the oldest recorded homo sapian (human) fossil found is 40,000 years ago and you state that humans were around 1 - 2 million years ago, why don't we see this in the "atomic clock" of our bodies. If science and Islam are harmonised why such a big difference in view between religous adam & eve with the scientific Mytercondrial eve and Y chromozome adam?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-15-2006, 03:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
Your making an assumption simply to fit the picture of your own belief?
Isn't that what I am being asked to do?

In your post earlier you stated adam and eve were different because they had "material" in them for future enthic divergance may I ask what is the material?
If I had known then I wouldn't have used a vague word like 'material'.

If the oldest recorded homo sapian (human) fossil found is 40,000 years ago
The keyword there is homo sapien. Homo sapiens have lived from around 200 thousand years ago. But then there are the other species within the homo genus which go back as far 2.4 million years ago. 'Species' like homo neanderthalensis and the recently discovered homo heidelbergenses don't really strike me as non-human, and in fact there has been debate as to whether they really are a seperate species from homo sapiens or are actually just a subspecies. Hence, they are sometimes referred to as Homo sapiens heidelbergensis and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.

Regards
Reply

justahumane
03-16-2006, 09:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Assalam Alaikam

Its strange and funny to see some of the Non muslims on this board say OH IF I SAID THIS ABOUT THE QURAN i would be banned. No you wouldnt i would LOVE to hear what you can try to put out on the Quran. There is not a single contradiction in the Quran. Or any areas of error in any established science or any aspects of life described in the Quran.

Now i would like to ask those non muslim friends, what can you possibly come up with against the Quran?
I believe that all religions are man made and all books on earth are man-written. According to muslim belief holy quran is word of ALLAH. It means that it must be true. I m giving translation of a verse of holy quran here,

3:110 Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.

Here ALMIGHTY ALLAH is refering to none other than muslims, declaring them the best of peoples, evolved for mankind. But when we see today's muslims, we see absolutely a different picture than what is told in the above verse. So my question is............

1. Is ALLAH lying?
2. If he is not, than plz give me justification of this verse, anyone?

Thanks.
Reply

mahdisoldier19
03-16-2006, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
I believe that all religions are man made and all books on earth are man-written. According to muslim belief holy quran is word of ALLAH. It means that it must be true. I m giving translation of a verse of holy quran here,




Here ALMIGHTY ALLAH is refering to none other than muslims, declaring them the best of peoples, evolved for mankind. But when we see today's muslims, we see absolutely a different picture than what is told in the above verse. So my question is............

1. Is ALLAH lying?
2. If he is not, than plz give me justification of this verse, anyone?

Thanks.

Im sorry to disrespect or anything, But that has to be one the weakest questions i had come across on this board. Why so weak? The actions of a few do not blame it on the religion and the other groups of people. If i say someone in Mumbai does something to kill someone. Do i say all of India are murderers? It takes only alittle common sense.

And the reason why you see a different picture is because of the Media.If that is what you see then again that is your problem. Do some research and learn about True Islam. Not CNN Islam.
Reply

justahumane
03-16-2006, 02:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Im sorry to disrespect or anything, But that has to be one the weakest questions i had come across on this board. Why so weak? The actions of a few do not blame it on the religion and the other groups of people. If i say someone in Mumbai does something to kill someone. Do i say all of India are murderers? It takes only alittle common sense.

And the reason why you see a different picture is because of the Media.If that is what you see then again that is your problem. Do some research and learn about True Islam. Not CNN Islam.
Brother mahdisoldier19, I think that u havent understood my question, the weakest one in ur opinion. I dont know how u come to conclusion that I m that I m blaming any religion after seeing actions of a few. No brother, its not like that. I think that u should read my post carefully and than answer.

But ya, I m talking about majority of muslims, who inspite of taking shahada, chose to stray from the real path of islam, chose to violate laws of holy quran, chose to disobey ALMIGHTY ALLAH. Consequently we do not see any true islamic state inspite of so many muslim-dominated countries on the earth. Did ALLAH speak about same muslims? or muslims of that particular time? Or ALLAH himself could not judge his ppls?

Brother I will appreciate if u answer my question, inspite of it being a weak one. And as my research and knowing about islam is concerned, than I m sure that its not going to make a big difference on the muslims of the world, they are definetely not going to come on right path by any of my such actions, so ur advice is not relevent here, I hope u understand.

Thanks.
Reply

mahdisoldier19
03-16-2006, 02:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Brother mahdisoldier19, I think that u havent understood my question, the weakest one in ur opinion. I dont know how u come to conclusion that I m that I m blaming any religion after seeing actions of a few. No brother, its not like that. I think that u should read my post carefully and than answer.

But ya, I m talking about majority of muslims, who inspite of taking shahada, chose to stray from the real path of islam, chose to violate laws of holy quran, chose to disobey ALMIGHTY ALLAH. Consequently we do not see any true islamic state inspite of so many muslim-dominated countries on the earth. Did ALLAH speak about same muslims? or muslims of that particular time? Or ALLAH himself could not judge his ppls?

Brother I will appreciate if u answer my question, inspite of it being a weak one. And as my research and knowing about islam is concerned, than I m sure that its not going to make a big difference on the muslims of the world, they are definetely not going to come on right path by any of my such actions, so ur advice is not relevent here, I hope u understand.

Thanks.
When your talking about Muslims. Your talking about Islam. Which makes its a religion. Infact Judaism was Islam in its time as was christianity, Now Islam is the true religion. Look deeply into the Quran, im sure the answers are there. And the purpose ot why there isnt a true Islamic state , i cannot answer this because everytime there is a true islamic state. A democratic state invades it in the name of Terrorism. So i cant really follow up on that answer.
Reply

root
03-16-2006, 02:57 PM
Ansar - I am slightly confused here, from how I see it you were asked if Adam & Eve were Human by czgibson to which you responded:

Yes they were human, but they must have been very different from us if their descendants were able to diversify into various ethnicities. Or perhaps some aspect of evolution/adaptation had a role here? God knows best.
I suggested you have made an assumption here. Your saying they were human (how do you know this) and that they were "different" from us. A bit of a paradox would you not agree. You have responded by saying:

Isn't that what I am being asked to do?
I don't think czgibson asked for an assumption when he asked you if "adam & eve were human"?

Quote:
Root - In your post earlier you stated adam and eve were different because they had "material" in them for future enthic divergance may I ask what is the material?
Ansar - If I had known then I wouldn't have used a vague word like 'material'.
So you "think" they had material but cannot offer an answer to what it is?

The keyword there is homo sapien. Homo sapiens have lived from around 200 thousand years ago. But then there are the other species within the homo genus which go back as far 2.4 million years ago. 'Species' like homo neanderthalensis and the recently discovered homo heidelbergenses don't really strike me as non-human, and in fact there has been debate as to whether they really are a seperate species from homo sapiens or are actually just a subspecies. Hence, they are sometimes referred to as Homo sapiens heidelbergensis and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.
I agree with you in reference to the "Homo Family" which is obtained by thier bipedal features and cranial mass. However, they are NOT homo-sapians so I am still at a loss as why you consider Adam & Eve as "Human" if you date them at 1 - 2 million years ago which would make them a hominid species and very very doubtful of being Human at all? You cannot claim adam & eve were human if you date them 1 - 2mya

PS. Homo neanderthalensis does not share common ancestory with us, this don't mean they never did in small pockets. But the mytachondrial DNA of a neanderthol is totally seperate to ours thus common ancestory has been ruled out.
Reply

justahumane
03-16-2006, 03:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
When your talking about Muslims. Your talking about Islam. Which makes its a religion. Infact Judaism was Islam in its time as was christianity, Now Islam is the true religion. Look deeply into the Quran, im sure the answers are there. And the purpose ot why there isnt a true Islamic state , i cannot answer this because everytime there is a true islamic state. A democratic state invades it in the name of Terrorism. So i cant really follow up on that answer.
Well brother, I donk know how many of ur own muslim bros and sisters will agree with u that talking about muslims and talking about islam are same. But once again I m disappointed to note that u failed to answer the weakest question on this board, which was from myself. So I assume that U are unable to answer. But no problem, there are another members on this forum who can come forward and answer me.

But permit me to tell U that whatever excuse U have given for non existance of a true islamic state is wrong according to my views. I sincerely believe that Majority of muslims today are only behaving like hypocrites when it comes to following the religion. They just pick and choose according to their convienience and greed. I m sure that u can blame some democratic state if I ask u why muslim states are doing the blunder of allowing interest on its soil, so its no use discussing with U. Coz U are defending the ppls who chose to disobey the commands of ALLAH.

Thanks again.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-16-2006, 03:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
Ansar - I am slightly confused here, from how I see it you were asked if Adam & Eve were Human by czgibson to which you responded:

I suggested you have made an assumption here. Your saying they were human (how do you know this) and that they were "different" from us.
I have not made an assumption in saying they were human; that is explicitly mentioned in Islam. When you said 'assumption' I thought you were referring to my other comment about their descendants diversifying.

A bit of a paradox would you not agree.
It shouldn't be for someone like you who accepts the theory of evolution, which suggests that some humans would be very different from other humans.

So you "think" they had material but cannot offer an answer to what it is?
I know they had the material because it is mentioned in the ahadith. But as far as what the material was, your guess is as good as mine - and in this scenario guesses are of little good.

However, they are NOT homo-sapians so I am still at a loss as why you consider Adam & Eve as "Human" if you date them at 1 - 2 million years ago which would make them a hominid species and very very doubtful of being Human at all?
You ignored the fact that many researchers consider homo neandethalensis and homo heidelbergensis to be homo sapiens neanderthalensis and homo spaiens heidelbergensis - i.e. a subspecies of homo sapiens.

And btw, the figure of 1MYA-2MYA is just my personal opinion. It may be wrong, it may change. Others may suggest a figure of 200 TYA, others 400 TYA, others even 15 TYA.
Reply

Issa
03-16-2006, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cihad
2+4=6 :rollseyes

6 is the total number of days it took
2 days to create the world itself
4 days to add the rest of the things in

at least thats how i see it.
As-salamu Alaykum,

That is how I see it too. Makes sense to me. Definately not a contradiction. It can be confusing because we talk differently now, but when I was reading it I didnt think it was contradicting.
Reply

mahdisoldier19
03-16-2006, 05:09 PM
The reason why i didnt give an answer is because the answer is in the Ayat that you mentioned. You just have to read it more carefully and understand it Brother. But its ok you dont want to understand it you reject it no problem.
Reply

czgibson
03-16-2006, 07:07 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
The reason why i didnt give an answer is because the answer is in the Ayat that you mentioned. You just have to read it more carefully and understand it Brother. But its ok you dont want to understand it you reject it no problem.
I sure it's not a case of not wanting to understand. Either justahumane understands something or he doesn't, just as is true for anyone else.

If I said "People from Mumbai are the best people, enjoining what is right and condemning what is wrong" and then a gang of Mumbai citizens committed an act which resulted in many deaths, my statement would have been shown to be wrong; not totally wrong, but wrong in a significant respect.

Peace
Reply

mahdisoldier19
03-16-2006, 07:18 PM
Yea but in the ayat he is referring to gibson it states that there will be a FEW WITH FAITH who Transgress. Or did he miss that part?
Reply

czgibson
03-16-2006, 07:22 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Yea but in the ayat he is referring to gibson it states that there will be a FEW WITH FAITH who Transgress. Or did he miss that part?
Let's look at it again:

3:110 Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.
Perhaps you could point out the part that you're talking about. The transgressors mentioned here seem to be the People of the Book.

Peace
Reply

mahdisoldier19
03-16-2006, 08:28 PM
Oh My dear Friend i apologize it seems that you dont have the correct translation.

The people who Allah swt is referring to is not Muslims It is:

You [true believers in Islāmic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad SAW and his Sunnah (legal ways, etc.)] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islāmic Monotheism and all that Islām has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islām has forbidden), and you believe in Allāh. And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some who have faith, but most of them are Al-Fāsiqûn (disobedient to Allāh - and rebellious against Allāh's Command)

So Where is the Question j/c?
Reply

Cheb
03-16-2006, 08:29 PM
:sl:
Here is something related to that verse and what it means. Plus when God (swt) says "Ye are the best of peoples", he is talking about true Muslims that follow the Quran and Hadith. (correct me if I am wrong)

"Question:

According to the teachings of Islam, changing evil is an Islamic duty that can be done on three levels — changing something, speaking out against it, or detesting it. Nowadays there is much talk about political evil. Are today's common evils (munkarat ) in the political scene included in the types of evils that should be changed? Or is changing evil confined to what is referred to in Shari`ah as unlawful, such as adultery and alcohol? If the duty of changing evil extends also to politics, what is the stance of Islam towards the one who keeps silent regarding political corruption?

Answer:

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Thanks for your question, and we earnestly implore Allah to guide us all to the best ways by which we can lead our lives according to the teachings of Islam.
Indeed, the evil (Arabic fasad) that Muslims should change, according to their capability as stated in a Prophetic hadith, includes all kinds of vile acts and abominable things that take place in society. Islam urges Muslims to try their best to change evil within the limits clarified by the Shari`ah. In addition, the Qur'an and the Sunnah contain clear texts that severely criticize the one who remains silent to the evil and vile acts committed.
Responding to the question, the eminent Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi states the following:

The texts in the Qur'an and the Sunnah that severely condemn remaining silent to evil acts committed in the society deeply affect anyone who has an atom's weigh of faith in his or her heart. This condemnation holds whether the one committing evil is a ruler or one of the ruled. Allah Almighty says: [Those of the children of Israel who went astray were cursed by the tongue of David, and of Jesus, son of Mary. That was because they rebelled and used to transgress. They restrained not one another from the wickedness they did. Verily evil was that they used to do!] (Al-Ma'idah 5:78-79).
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is also reported to have said, "He who amongst you sees an evil should change it with the help of his hand; and if he has no strength enough to do it, then he should do it with his tongue, and if he has not strength enough to do it, (even) then he should do it with his heart, and that is the least (sign) of faith" (Muslim).
In this regard it is a mistake to think that evil is confined to the unlawful acts such as adultery and drinking alcohol.
A ruler's humiliating his subjects is an evil; forging elections is another evil; and refraining from voting is also an evil because it passively leads to giving authority to people unworthy of bearing public responsibility. Evil also encompasses misappropriating public funds; monopolizing goods that people need; detaining people without legal evidence; torturing detainees in prisons; giving or taking bribes, and mediating between givers and takers of bribes; adulating rulers; taking Allah's enemies and the enemies of the Muslim Ummah as friends, etc. Hence, we find that the meaning of evil includes many things that people regard as sheer political affairs.
It does not befit true Muslims who sincerely seek to please Almighty Allah to stand inactive before such vile acts on the pretext that they fear to take serious steps towards reform, or that they want to be on the safe side anyway.
Should this negative spirit spread in the Muslim Ummah, it would no longer be able to undertake the responsibility towards guiding the world, and it would then become a nation other than the one Almighty Allah describes by saying [Ye are the best community that hath been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah] (Aal `Imran 3:110).
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) also warned the Muslims against adopting negative (apathetic) attitudes of this kind as he (peace and blessing be upon him) is reported to have said, "Should it occur that the people of my Ummah have such extreme fear that they become unable to say to the unjust people 'You are wrong,' they would no longer be worthy of life" (Ahmad).
Dictates of faith require Muslims not to stand helpless in the face of evil, whatever be its kind — political, economic, intellectual, social, etc. Rather Muslims should exert their utmost efforts (while making use of all possible legal channels) to change evil. If they cannot do actual things to change it, they are to try this by expressing their refusal openly; and if still they cannot do this, they are to resort to the least attempt of reform, that is, to abhor it in their hearts, which is considered as "the least (sign) of faith" according to the Prophet's hadith referred to above.
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) considered abhorring evil from one's heart as a kind of changing it, as it is a psychological and intellectual mobilization on the way of refusing it. Therefore, it is not a total submission to and acceptance of the evil as some people may think. Had it been so, it would not have been referred to in the hadith as a kind of changing evil.
Constant abhorrence of evil will certainly result someday in something positive in the way of resistance; it may be then in the form of revolution and utter change of affairs.
There is another hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) that referred to changing the evil with one's heart as a kind of jihad, though also considered here as the lowest rank of jihad. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said, "There was no prophet sent by Almighty Allah to a community before me but he would find supporters and companions who would follow in his footsteps and abide by his teachings. Then there came (after them) generations that would say (that is, preach) what they would not act upon and do what they had not been given instructions to do. He who can perform jihad against (resist) those people with the help of his hands is a believer; he who can do this with his tongue is also a believer; and he who can do this (even) with his heart is a believer too. There is no atom of faith beyond this (that is, seeking resistance with any of these means)" (Muslim).
However, individual efforts may fail to resist evil, especially if it has prevailed in such a monstrous way that it is practiced by the very people who are supposed to fight against it. I mean here the rulers and people in authority. If the case is so, combining efforts to resist evil by all possible and lawful means becomes a religious duty upon the political parties and organizations that seek reform. It is a kind of seeking cooperation on that which is good and righteous for the good of people."

http://www.islam-online.net/servlet/...=1138109426557

:w:
Reply

mahdisoldier19
03-16-2006, 08:34 PM
Yes i apologize i dont know what your asking thank you for clearing it cheb
Reply

czgibson
03-16-2006, 09:12 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Oh My dear Friend i apologize it seems that you dont have the correct translation.

The people who Allah swt is referring to is not Muslims It is:

You [true believers in Islāmic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad SAW and his Sunnah (legal ways, etc.)] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islāmic Monotheism and all that Islām has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islām has forbidden), and you believe in Allāh. And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some who have faith, but most of them are Al-Fāsiqûn (disobedient to Allāh - and rebellious against Allāh's Command)

So Where is the Question j/c?
I didn't realise there was a correct translation...

Anyway, the content of the verse remains the same, so justahumane's question remains.

Peace
Reply

mahdisoldier19
03-16-2006, 09:14 PM
What is his question? He thought the ayat was refering to the Muslims or thats what i thought when in fact its referring to the Christian and jews
Reply

Cheb
03-16-2006, 09:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I didn't realise there was a correct translation...

Anyway, the content of the verse remains the same, so justahumane's question remains.

Peace
How does the question still remain?
Only the first part of my post answers the question. Furthermore, brother mahdisoldier also gave an interpretation of the verse stating what God (swt) meant when saying "Ye" or "You":
"You [true believers in Islāmic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad SAW and his Sunnah (legal ways, etc.)]"
The Muslims j/c was talking about are NOT the same as the Muslims this verse mentions.
Reply

czgibson
03-16-2006, 09:31 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
What is his question? He thought the ayat was refering to the Muslims or thats what i thought when in fact its referring to the Christian and jews
According to the interpretation you've quoted, it refers to both Muslims and the People of the Book.

It seems you still have not understood justahumane's question. I've tried explaining it again, and I can't see how I could express it any more clearly than that.

How does the question still remain?
Only the first part of my post answers the question.
Could you point out exactly where it does this? Could you also point out where in the verse it refers to "true Muslims", whatever this means?

The Muslims j/c was talking about are NOT the same as the Muslims this verse mentions.
In what way? Does the Qur'an make this distinction clear?

Peace
Reply

mahdisoldier19
03-16-2006, 09:42 PM
Gibson,

Answer me now Whats the Question? You keep fending off. Give me the question what is it?
Reply

Cheb
03-16-2006, 09:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


According to the interpretation you've quoted, it refers to both Muslims and the People of the Book.
Please point this out. The interpretation clearly says the verse is talking about true believers and real believers of the Prophet (pbuh) and his sunnah. i.e. TRUE MUSLIMS.

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
It seems you still have not understood justahumane's question. I've tried explaining it again, and I can't see how I could express it any more clearly than that.
It seems you have not understood the answer.

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Could you point out exactly where it does this? Could you also point out where in the verse it refers to "true Muslims", whatever this means?
The part where I say the verse is talking about true Muslims. True Muslims are those that follow the Quran and the Prophet (pbuh) both by thought and actions. The verse did not refer to the Muslims jc was talking about.


format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
In what way? Does the Qur'an make this distinction clear?
God swt clearly states that Muslims should follow the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh. Why would HE say that we are the best of people if we did not even follow HIS word or HIS prophets actions. The interpretation also explains what God meant by "YOU".

Peace.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-16-2006, 09:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Your are posting on an Islamic website. Even discussing these topics would lead to a ban in the end. If you are serious about this test, why not go to a Christian site or an Apostate one?

Besides, Muslims are not stupid, any more than Christians are. If there were "contradictions" in the Quran Muslim scholars would have noticed them years ago and explained why they do not appear to say what they appear to say. Just as Christians have done. There must be a reason for why the Quran gives two different lengths of time for the creation of the Earth. I do not know what it is, but I am not so stupid as to think it means the Quran contains an error.

007.054
YUSUFALI: Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
PICKTHAL: Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!
SHAKIR: Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

Compared to,

041.009
YUSUFALI: Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
SHAKIR: Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds.

041.010
YUSUFALI: He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
PICKTHAL: He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
SHAKIR: And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods: alike for the seekers.

041.011
YUSUFALI: Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
PICKTHAL: Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.
SHAKIR: Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.

041.012
YUSUFALI: So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
PICKTHAL: Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.
SHAKIR: So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

Presumably Muslims just think God can multi-task.


Hei Gou pleaaaaase, post one tranlation up in future. Wouldn't that just be simpler?
Reply

czgibson
03-16-2006, 10:34 PM
Greetings,

Here's my question:

Can you see how the example below is analogous to what's mentioned in the verse we are discussing?

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
If I said "People from Mumbai are the best people, enjoining what is right and condemning what is wrong" and then a gang of Mumbai citizens committed an act which resulted in many deaths, my statement would have been shown to be wrong; not totally wrong, but wrong in a significant respect.
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
It seems you have not understood the answer.
Quite right. That's why you're kindly explaining it to me. :)

The part where I say the verse is talking about true Muslims. True Muslims are those that follow the Quran and the Prophet (pbuh) both by thought and actions. The verse did not refer to the Muslims jc was talking about.
OK, so we've now got a lot of fake Muslims running about the place. Does the Qur'an make this clear in the verse? No. Then, it could be argued, the verse says something which is not true.

God swt clearly states that Muslims should follow the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh.
People are always telling me how clear the Qur'an is. I find this point of view baffling to say the least.

The interpretation also explains what God meant by "YOU".
That's just priceless. I'm so glad we've got humans to tell us "what God meant". Is god not able to express himself clearly?

Peace
Reply

czgibson
03-16-2006, 10:35 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
Hei Gou pleaaaaase, post one tranlation up in future. Wouldn't that just be simpler?
I think HeiGou's being very wise. At least he can't get accused of using the "wrong translation"!

Peace
Reply

The Ruler
03-16-2006, 10:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I think HeiGou's being very wise. At least he can't get accused of using the "wrong translation"!
the translations of the Qur'anis quite accuratte although in some places, they harder than the others....like the shapeare lnguage n the language nowadys. :rollseyes

:w:
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-16-2006, 10:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I think HeiGou's being very wise. At least he can't get accused of using the "wrong translation"!

Peace
There is no wrong translation. I think you're confusing the Qur'an for the Bible.
Reply

Cheb
03-16-2006, 10:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Here's my question:

Can you see how the example below is analogous to what's mentioned in the verse we are discussing?
It is NOT the same at all. You are specifically saying people from "Mumbai". God never said "Muslims". "Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah". This is a description of a true Muslim, not Muslims in general.
ANd that is why it is interpreted as such:
"You [true believers in Islāmic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad SAW and his Sunnah (legal ways, etc.)] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islāmic Monotheism and all that Islām has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islām has forbidden), and you believe in Allāh"
Never did God say "You Muslims".





format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Quite right. That's why you're kindly explaining it to me. :)
I am trying my best.



format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
OK, so we've now got a lot of fake Muslims running about the place. Does the Qur'an make this clear in the verse? No. Then, it could be argued, the verse says something which is not true.
See above. It DOES make it clear.


format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
People are always telling me how clear the Qur'an is. I find this point of view baffling to say the least.
There are some parts which are not easy to understand. But we have interpretations and we have the Hadith to further guide us.



format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
That's just priceless. I'm so glad we've got humans to tell us "what God meant". Is god not able to express himself clearly?

Peace
Maybe I used wrong wording there, but still, see above.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-17-2006, 04:07 AM
I don't see what all the fuss is about. God clearly explains the reasoning that the best people are those who believe in Allah, enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil i.e. uphold Islamic laws. So if someone is not following Islam, then they obviously don't fall under this verse because they don't forbid what is evil and enjoin what is good. It's not rocket science. Munafiqeen [those who outwardly profess Islam], Kafireen [disbelievers] and Faasiqeen [sinful rebellious immoral people] do not fall under the statement of this verse - it is only those who meet this criteria of enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil. If we do that, then without a doubt, we are the best nation. The companions, the immediate addressees of the verse, did exactly that.

:w:
Reply

mahdisoldier19
03-17-2006, 04:36 AM
thats what im saying Adl whats the problem?
Reply

justahumane
03-17-2006, 08:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Oh My dear Friend i apologize it seems that you dont have the correct translation.

The people who Allah swt is referring to is not Muslims It is:

You [true believers in Islāmic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad SAW and his Sunnah (legal ways, etc.)] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islāmic Monotheism and all that Islām has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islām has forbidden), and you believe in Allāh. And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some who have faith, but most of them are Al-Fāsiqûn (disobedient to Allāh - and rebellious against Allāh's Command)

So Where is the Question j/c?
Brother Mahdisoldier, the problem is that all the so called islamic scholers tend to believe that they know what was in ALLAH's mind while giving the verses of holy quran. While ALLAH has himself said many times that holy quran is easy to understand.(19:97/44:58/) Was he lying? definetely NO. So whats the use of cooking up stories about what was in ALLAH's mind?

So U ppls may twist the translation, but its no secret that ALLAH is addressing to muslims of that time. No where he has stated that he is speaking to only a group of muslims. This is only ur own misinterpretation that he was speaking to such and such ppls. But let me add that certainly muslims of that time would be meeting that criteria of being obidient to ALLAH. While vast majority of today's so called muslims are not like that. So can we assume that holy quran is not meant for them????? And can we assume that holy quran was time bound and not relevent today coz we dont have those kind of muslms around? and if there are some than they are natural exceptions which can be found in that vast society everywhere? no matter whether muslims or not?

Posted by brother Ansar
I don't see what all the fuss is about. God clearly explains the reasoning that the best people are those who believe in Allah, enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil i.e. uphold Islamic laws. So if someone is not following Islam, then they obviously don't fall under this verse because they don't forbid what is evil and enjoin what is good. It's not rocket science. Munafiqeen [those who outwardly profess Islam], Kafireen [disbelievers] and Faasiqeen [sinful rebellious immoral people] do not fall under the statement of this verse - it is only those who meet this criteria of enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil. If we do that, then without a doubt, we are the best nation. The companions, the immediate addressees of the verse, did exactly that.
Very well said brother Ansar, but u must agree with me that ALLAH was refering to muslims of that time who were true believers indeed. Not to the rest ie Munafiqeen, Kafireen, and Faasiqeen. If we make two groups of ppls of those times than one group will consist of muslims whom ALLAH was talking to and rest will fall in second group, who are offcourse not muslims..............Now if Islamic claim of holy quran being the ALLAH's command for all times is true than obviously we can divide ppls of our time in two groups again. I dont think that anyone who believes in holy quran should have any objection with it. And no one should have any objection to my following claim.

All the noise of Islam being fastest growing religion is false, coz if we see in the light of holy quran, Islam may be termed as fastest shrinking religion with very few followers, majority being Munafiqeen and Faasiqeen. True muslims are rarely found like natural exceptions. This is my point of view about the present scenario of muslims, if someone differ and wants to add munafiqeens and fasiqeens in the ummah, than I m no one to object, but free to differ and blow a whistle, coz I m sure that its not a good sign. ALLAH knows the best.

And thanks brother czgibson for carrying forward the debate in the best possible way, lets hope that this debate bears fruit and make some ppls sit for a while and think.
Reply

sargon
03-17-2006, 02:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Brother Mahdisoldier, the problem is that all the so called islamic scholers tend to believe that they know what was in ALLAH's mind while giving the verses of holy quran. While ALLAH has himself said many times that holy quran is easy to understand.(19:97/44:58/) Was he lying? definetely NO. So whats the use of cooking up stories about what was in ALLAH's mind?
The Quran is easy to understand if you read the whole thing without doubts clouding your mind through each verse. If you doubt it then you look for mistakes and create things. If you believe already then you're not actively trying to make something out of nothing, so the meaning becomes clear to you.

Scholars exist because they've dedicate they're lives. Every Muslim is like a scholar, but "scholars" really dedicate themselves to the message. Muslims that aren't scholars perform other duties for society. You can't be an engineer, doctor, and scholar all at once can you?

So if you have some trouble understanding the reasons behind why you should follow a law, then you can ask a scholar. The laws however are pretty clear. Enjoin good, forbid evil, pray, fast, etc... The five pillars.

So U ppls may twist the translation, but its no secret that ALLAH is addressing to muslims of that time. No where he has stated that he is speaking to only a group of muslims. This is only ur own misinterpretation that he was speaking to such and such ppls. But let me add that certainly muslims of that time would be meeting that criteria of being obidient to ALLAH. While vast majority of today's so called muslims are not like that. So can we assume that holy quran is not meant for them????? And can we assume that holy quran was time bound and not relevent today coz we dont have those kind of muslms around? and if there are some than they are natural exceptions which can be found in that vast society everywhere? no matter whether muslims or not?
I see no other way of interpreting it as Allah addressing true Muslims in any period of time in any area. Any true Muslims at that time in that area, that verse was for them. Any true Muslims in this time in these areas, this verse is for them/us.

A "state" is not an argument against this verse. We can enjoin good and forbid evil anywhere we go. If I see something bad it's my duty to Allah to go and fix it, we're fixers, helpers, Allah's servants.

It is sad to say that this specific period of time Muslims are going through a lot, and like mahadi said it's a bit difficult to setup an Islamic state if it keeps being colonized and destroyed from the outside and inside.


Very well said brother Ansar, but u must agree with me that ALLAH was refering to muslims of that time who were true believers indeed. Not to the rest ie Munafiqeen, Kafireen, and Faasiqeen. If we make two groups of ppls of those times than one group will consist of muslims whom ALLAH was talking to and rest will fall in second group, who are offcourse not muslims..............Now if Islamic claim of holy quran being the ALLAH's command for all times is true than obviously we can divide ppls of our time in two groups again. I dont think that anyone who believes in holy quran should have any objection with it. And no one should have any objection to my following claim.

All the noise of Islam being fastest growing religion is false, coz if we see in the light of holy quran, Islam may be termed as fastest shrinking religion with very few followers, majority being Munafiqeen and Faasiqeen. True muslims are rarely found like natural exceptions. This is my point of view about the present scenario of muslims, if someone differ and wants to add munafiqeens and fasiqeens in the ummah, than I m no one to object, but free to differ and blow a whistle, coz I m sure that its not a good sign. ALLAH knows the best.

And thanks brother czgibson for carrying forward the debate in the best possible way, lets hope that this debate bears fruit and make some ppls sit for a while and think.
No that verse is addressing all true Muslims. Does it say anything about a specific period of time? Why would you think it's for a specific period?

If you plant a tree and 80% of the apples go bad, yet the trees spread across the field, in the end you still have more good apples than 1 tree with 100% good apples. Bad apples in Islam is not an argument.

One thing I learned, judge both sides by the same argument. How many bad apples in America, Europe, Africa, China? The numbers are the same if not worse. How can an Islamic society fail if our entire life revolves around sacrficing personal desires* for Allah, to making things good, fixing, and helping?

* personal desires Personal desires are the the biggest, if not the only problem this world has. Whenever there's genocide it's always been out of hate, greed, or lack of thinking about Allah.

In twiste cases like Rwanda and the Nazi's, they believed they were "cleansing," but if they had listened to Allah they would have known how to judge people, how to punish, and peace would prevail.

So I hope your answer is cleared up now :)
:w:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-17-2006, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
All the noise of Islam being fastest growing religion is false, coz if we see in the light of holy quran, Islam may be termed as fastest shrinking religion with very few followers, majority being Munafiqeen and Faasiqeen. True muslims are rarely found like natural exceptions.
You don't know this. This is what you think based on the images that have been conveyed to you through the media - it is fallacious to make general statements about the Muslims based on such images.
Reply

justahumane
03-18-2006, 09:52 AM
Salam Brother Sargon and Brother Ansar

I think that I have already shared my views on this subject and have nothing more to add. I may be wrong, but this is the way I think.

Brother Ansar here I must add that my views are not based on media report at all. I have already made it clear that I dont need media report to know how muslims behave. Nor I have anything against muslims, coz I m one who is more attatched to muslims rather than any other ppls.

The only point I always try to emphasize upon is that muslims are very much hypocritic when it comes to religion. And I think that u should agree with me. U can differ with me too, but I strongly feel that its fault and hypocricy of muslims that we dont see shariyah laws being enforced in any muslim country today, U ppls can blame anyone for this, but I wont agree with u ever. Thats it. Again ALLAH knows the best.

Regarding the verse in question, let me tell U that I have myself asked about the correct translation of that verse from not less than 2 scholers in last 2 days, and not surprisingly, both have told me that ALLAH is addressing to muslims, U can do this practical test for urself, anyone who wants, I m sure that no scholer is going to tell U that ALLAH is talking to only true muslims. But the moment U raise ur concern about this verse, all the misinterpretation will start flowing in.

Thanks.
Reply

Cheb
03-18-2006, 10:30 AM
justahumane you seem to want to argue even though you have been proven wrong. The verse you stated NEVER says "Muslims", the verse states specific charactaristics of a true Muslims. I have read both the English and Arabic version of the verse and they both mean the same thing. If you refuse to accept that then you are sharing the same qualities as the Muslims that you critisize, ignorance. I wonder why you ask the question if you refuse to accept the answer regardless of its conviction.
Plus, if you do not need media reports then what do you need?
What is it that is giving you this image of Islam if it is not the media?
Reply

Malsidabym
03-18-2006, 10:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sargon
The Quran is easy to understand if you read the whole thing without doubts clouding your mind through each verse. If you doubt it then you look for mistakes and create things. If you believe already then you're not actively trying to make something out of nothing, so the meaning becomes clear to you.

:w:
This is no way to search for the truth though, especially if you are new to a religion. The truth is that you should in fact question every verse you read in order to search for answers. You are talking about total blind faith. If you don't test what you learn, then when faced with questions later your knowledge won't stand up.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-18-2006, 03:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Brother Ansar here I must add that my views are not based on media report at all.
Have you conducted a survey then, of all muslims in the world??

Maybe most Muslims you know are hypocrites, but you can't make a statement about all the Muslims in the world.

And what some anonymous 'scholar' says does not matter. What matters is the verse clearly establishes the criteria for who is included in it. They have to enjoin the good and forbid the evil and have faith in God. If someone doesn't meet that criteria, they are not included.
Reply

YouAreLostSouls
03-20-2006, 03:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Wow , a person whos a christian. How can one believe that God died for human beings? God died for his own creation? i dont know wow eh.

Walakam salam

thats just my opinion
since the start of this thread, iv went through three pages so far, and each time anyone has asked questions regarding koran and other contradictive questions , u have ignored them and not even tried to answer them, do you know about your religion? why did you start the thread if you are incapable to answer questions regarding islam???????:heated:
Reply

YouAreLostSouls
03-20-2006, 03:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
The reason why i didnt give an answer is because the answer is in the Ayat that you mentioned. You just have to read it more carefully and understand it Brother. But its ok you dont want to understand it you reject it no problem.

just ansa the bloody questions!!!
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-20-2006, 04:14 PM
^^^^Your user name is interesting.:)
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-20-2006, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YouAreLostSouls
just ansa the bloody questions!!!
Which questions haven't been answered?
Reply

j4763
03-20-2006, 05:06 PM
If the Quran is unchanged how come there are so many different translations floating around and why so many different sects?
Also how do we know that the scholars have got it right?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-20-2006, 05:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
If the Quran is unchanged how come there are so many different translations floating around and why so many different sects?
Also how do we know that the scholars have got it right?
It is impossible to translate from arabic to english perfectly. For example, one scholar would use one word to describe an arabic word and one scholar another. The Qur'an is in arabic. There is no translation, it is a translation of the meaning. It is recommended that one learn arabic.
As for sects, this came after division in ideas and interpretations.
Allah knows best.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-20-2006, 05:17 PM
Sorry, the scholars have got what right?
Reply

j4763
03-20-2006, 05:19 PM
Don’t the scholars help Muslims understand what’s written/interpreted in the Quran?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-20-2006, 05:27 PM
By studying tafseer, yes.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-20-2006, 05:27 PM
But the Qur'an is simple enough for the average joe to take it at face value. But when it comes to making fatwas, you have to be qualified as this is a serious thing.
Reply

j4763
03-20-2006, 05:29 PM
So how do you know they've got it right?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-20-2006, 05:39 PM
The science of tafseer goes all the way back to the companions. Some of the greatest classical scholars like Abu Hanifah were indirectly taught by Ibn Mas'ud (ra) who was the most skilled companion in tafseer of the Qur'an.
Reply

HeiGou
03-20-2006, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
But the Qur'an is simple enough for the average joe to take it at face value. But when it comes to making fatwas, you have to be qualified as this is a serious thing.
Actually I have my doubts that it is that simple. Before Christians started to annoy Muslims and Muslims got defensive, scholars used to argue over what words in the Quran meant. I have a list of opinions about a particular word around here somewhere. Islamic scholars wrote long treatises on what the Quran actually said. The two estimates I have heard from Western Scholars is that either about one in five words, or about one in three sentences, is open to serious argument over meaning.

Look at the famous passage on dhimmis - to make them pay in humiliation out of their right hand. Even that passage is disputed because the Arabic does not seem clear.
Reply

Wahid
03-20-2006, 06:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Hey - no fair! You cut part of it.

007.054
YUSUFALI: Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
PICKTHAL: Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!
SHAKIR: Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

Compared to,

[indent] 041.009
YUSUFALI: Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
SHAKIR: Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds.

No you read!, isnt it plain obvious?
Allah is saying he created heavans & earth both in 6 days while he says he made the earth only in 2 days
must be so hard to understand
Reply

Mohsin
03-20-2006, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YouAreLostSouls
since the start of this thread, iv went through three pages so far, and each time anyone has asked questions regarding koran and other contradictive questions , u have ignored them and not even tried to answer them, do you know about your religion? why did you start the thread if you are incapable to answer questions regarding islam???????:heated:

Bro, read all the posts, all the questions ahve been answered. If you feel one hasn't plz bring it forward. Often non-muslims on this site will ask one question, and in the middle of having it answered will ask another one
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-20-2006, 11:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Actually I have my doubts that it is that simple. Before Christians started to annoy Muslims and Muslims got defensive, scholars used to argue over what words in the Quran meant. I have a list of opinions about a particular word around here somewhere. Islamic scholars wrote long treatises on what the Quran actually said. The two estimates I have heard from Western Scholars is that either about one in five words, or about one in three sentences, is open to serious argument over meaning.

Look at the famous passage on dhimmis - to make them pay in humiliation out of their right hand. Even that passage is disputed because the Arabic does not seem clear.
I think you've misunderstood me. I don't mean the average joe can make tafseer, i just meant they can get the general meaning of the ayah. I don't know where you get your information from though, because this is not what I understand from tafseer. Scholars tend to disagree on what the interpretation of certain ayahs are, for example an ayah talking about hijab. If every fifth word was unknown we would be in serious trouble.:offended:
Reply

justahumane
03-21-2006, 10:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Have you conducted a survey then, of all muslims in the world??

Maybe most Muslims you know are hypocrites, but you can't make a statement about all the Muslims in the world.

And what some anonymous 'scholar' says does not matter. What matters is the verse clearly establishes the criteria for who is included in it. They have to enjoin the good and forbid the evil and have faith in God. If someone doesn't meet that criteria, they are not included.
No brother I havent conducted a survey of all muslims neither any of my statement was directed towards all muslims, all I said was about majority of muslims. Now u can well ask why majority of muslims? Just coz we dont see any islamic state in function, u may give some excuses for that, like attack from west, or corrupted leaders, or some kind of consipiracy. Well, u are free to give excuses, and I m free to buy it or not. I know that every deed has its own justification, Bush has his own justification of attacking Iraq, Saddam had his own justification of his cruality, Sharon had his own for opressing palestinian, and muslims around the world have their own reasons for not following shariyah, or getting it implemented in their own countries.

U may be right that muslims I know are hypocrites, while the rest are not, but owning to reasons above, I strongly feel that religious hypocricy is a common problem of majority of muslims., not all muslims. But unfortunately, the majority always prevails on minority, hence no islamic state, coz very few favour it honestly. Holy Quran, has been reduced to be a book only to recite, parrot, and make noise about it, and to follow it selectively, according to one's own convienience. Like it or not, Truth is always bitter and hard to digest

And what some anonymous 'scholar' says does not matter. What matters is the verse clearly establishes the criteria for who is included in it. They have to enjoin the good and forbid the evil and have faith in God. If someone doesn't meet that criteria, they are not included
Brother I m not talking about some anonymous 'scholer' but almost all scholers. I had already requested u or anyone to himself ask about the translation of the verse in question from any schloler, he will himself tell u that ALLAH is talking to MUSLIMS. As I told u that interpretation or misinterpretation will only start when U raise my question. Why dont u try it urself and tell about the result to us???

BTW, I agree that my question has been answered, now its upto me whether I agree with ur answer or not.

Thanks.
Reply

justahumane
03-21-2006, 10:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
justahumane you seem to want to argue even though you have been proven wrong. The verse you stated NEVER says "Muslims", the verse states specific charactaristics of a true Muslims. I have read both the English and Arabic version of the verse and they both mean the same thing. If you refuse to accept that then you are sharing the same qualities as the Muslims that you critisize, ignorance. I wonder why you ask the question if you refuse to accept the answer regardless of its conviction.
Plus, if you do not need media reports then what do you need?
What is it that is giving you this image of Islam if it is not the media?
Brother Cheb, if u think that I m proven wrong than its okay, u may be right or may be wrong too. U may be right that I share the same qualities of muslims I critisize, IGNORANCE, but whats a big deal here? When such a vast majority of ppls who believe in guidence from ALLAH can be ignorant, why cant a kafir?

BTW brother Cheb, may I dare ask U which part of my post suggested to u that I have certain image of islam? which media has given to me?

Thanks.
Reply

Cheb
03-21-2006, 03:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
When such a vast majority of ppls who believe in guidence from ALLAH can be ignorant, why cant a kafir?
By saying "vast majority" I think it is safe to assume that 70% is considered a "vast majority"? So basically you are saying that over 1 billion Muslims are ignorant? Is that a fair generalization?

format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
BTW brother Cheb, may I dare ask U which part of my post suggested to u that I have certain image of islam? which media has given to me?

Thanks.
Sure you may ask what you want. My question was a response to this comment.

format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Brother Ansar here I must add that my views are not based on media report at all. I have already made it clear that I dont need media report to know how muslims behave.
Just another thing I want to mention. All the Suras in the Quran are a result of a certain incident happening during that time. That is why it took such a long time for the Quran to be completed. So basically when a scholar interprets the Quran, he has these incidents to look back at.
Peace.
Reply

justahumane
03-21-2006, 04:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
By saying "vast majority" I think it is safe to assume that 70% is considered a "vast majority"? So basically you are saying that over 1 billion Muslims are ignorant? Is that a fair generalization?


Sure you may ask what you want. My question was a response to this comment.



Just another thing I want to mention. All the Suras in the Quran are a result of a certain incident happening during that time. That is why it took such a long time for the Quran to be completed. So basically when a scholar interprets the Quran, he has these incidents to look back at.
Peace.
Salam brother Cheb and thanks for ur post.

By saying "vast majority" I think it is safe to assume that 70% is considered a "vast majority"? So basically you are saying that over 1 billion Muslims are ignorant? Is that a fair generalization?
Brother I m sorry to be blunt, but my claim was a result of following comment from U.

If you refuse to accept that then you are sharing the same qualities as the Muslims that you critisize, ignorance.
So brother it was U who labelled those muslims, whom I ciriticize, as ignorants. And yes I criticize vast majority of muslims for their unislsamic behaviour. To give U example of muslims from Indian subcontinent, there are over 400 million muslims here, living in one secular and two islamic states. So If u honestly see how many muslims go to dargahs (Shrines), and enjoy interest (Those who can afford to earn interest, ie rich muslims) than figures can be disgustingly astonishing for U. Need I tell that Shirk and Interest are sins no I and 2 respectively in Islam?

Secondly brother, I have very clear views about ignorance/hypocricy. If 70% muslims are not ignorant/hypocrites, than I see no reason that stops muslims to to live according to ALLAH's wishes, ie shariyah laws. I know that U may get further angry with me and lable me ignorant again. U must be having some defence for unislamic behaviour of muslms en masse. But sorry, I m not gonna buy it, may be coz as a kafir I m ignorant, destined for hellfire unilke ur muslims bretherns, but still I wont deviate from my stand.

Sure you may ask what you want. My question was a response to this comment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by justahumane
Brother Ansar here I must add that my views are not based on media report at all. I have already made it clear that I dont need media report to know how muslims behave.

Brother may I dare ask U again how u jumped to conclusion that my above statement reflects certain image of Islam? Plz be clear, coz I m a bit confused by ur words.

Just another thing I want to mention. All the Suras in the Quran are a result of a certain incident happening during that time. That is why it took such a long time for the Quran to be completed. So basically when a scholar interprets the Quran, he has these incidents to look back at.
Brother I agree with U.

Thanks.
Reply

HeiGou
03-21-2006, 04:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
I think you've misunderstood me. I don't mean the average joe can make tafseer, i just meant they can get the general meaning of the ayah. I don't know where you get your information from though, because this is not what I understand from tafseer. Scholars tend to disagree on what the interpretation of certain ayahs are, for example an ayah talking about hijab. If every fifth word was unknown we would be in serious trouble.:offended:
Well I don't want to offend - especially now I have heard about what you think about George Bush!

But take the Surat al-Ihlas which contains the phrase as-samad. What does it mean?

Tabari said

And His word: Allahu as-samad expresses (the diea): The One worshipped, He the samad, nobody except Him can be properly worshipped. The Quran commentators disagree as to the meaning of as-samad.

1. Some of them say: He is the one who is not hollow, who does not eat or drink. This opinion is held by the following people:
1.1 Abd-ar-Rahman b. al-Aswad <Muhammed b. Rabi'ah <Salamah b. Sabur <Atiyah <Ibn <Abbas As-samad is he (that) who is not hollow
1.2 Ibn Bassar >deletions< As-samad is the solid one who has no hollowness.
1.3 Abu Kurayb >deletions< as above
1.4 Al-Harit >deletions< as above
1.5 Ibn Bassar >deletions< As-samad is the one who has no hollowness.
1.6 Abu Kurayb >deletions< as above
>deletions<
1.16 Ibn Abd-al-Ala >deletions<

2. Others say that He is the one from whom nothing comes out. This opinion is held by the following people:
[Two names]
3. Others says that He is the one who did not begat and was not begotten. This opinion is held by the following people
[Three names]
4. Others say He is the lord whose lordship has reached its peak. This opinion is held by the following people
[Four names]
5. Others say, in reality as-samad is the enduring one who does not disappear. This opinion is held by the following people:
[Two names]
6. Says Abu Jafar (al-Tabari): With the Arabs as-samad means the lord to whom recourse is had, and above whom there is nothing. It is used in reference to their noble men.

Yet this seems a simple case of a simple word. In an important context. Not that long after Muhammed died.
Reply

Cheb
03-21-2006, 05:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Salam brother Cheb and thanks for ur post.



Brother I m sorry to be blunt, but my claim was a result of following comment from U.
my statement: "If you refuse to accept that then you are sharing the same qualities as the Muslims that you critisize, ignorance. "
You replied?: "When such a vast majority of ppls who believe in guidence from ALLAH can be ignorant, why cant a kafir? "
I never said "vast majority" nor did I ever imply that most of us are ignorant. That is something that you said and implied(edit: I know you did not say it at first, I am referring to the second post). My statement was referring to the MINORITY of Muslims that are ignorant. Those are the Muslims that I would think you criticize.



format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
So brother it was U who labelled those muslims, whom I ciriticize, as ignorants. And yes I criticize vast majority of muslims for their unislsamic behaviour. To give U example of muslims from Indian subcontinent, there are over 400 million muslims here, living in one secular and two islamic states. So If u honestly see how many muslims go to dargahs (Shrines), and enjoy interest (Those who can afford to earn interest, ie rich muslims) than figures can be disgustingly astonishing for U. Need I tell that Shirk and Interest are sins no I and 2 respectively in Islam?
400 million? where did you get that information from. So you know for a fact that those "400 million" Muslims earn interest. Still an unfair generalization.

format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Secondly brother, I have very clear views about ignorance/hypocricy. If 70% muslims are not ignorant/hypocrites, than I see no reason that stops muslims to to live according to ALLAH's wishes, ie shariyah laws. I know that U may get further angry with me and lable me ignorant again. U must be having some defence for unislamic behaviour of muslms en masse. But sorry, I m not gonna buy it, may be coz as a kafir I m ignorant, destined for hellfire unilke ur muslims bretherns, but still I wont deviate from my stand.
The rich Muslims that are actually in power are the one that make the decisions. There are many poor and illiterate Muslims too that basically have no say. The rest are shut down whenever they oppose their leaders. See ignorance is not the word to use. I agree that if all Muslims actually followed Islam the way it was meant to be followed, the circumstances would be much different now. But as long as the greedy stay in power and look out for their own interest with the help of the West, change will be hard and slow. No doubt Muslims need to start to think about a realistic solution to these problems. Muslims are definitely not perfect, not even close, but so long as the weak keep getting weaker, little will change. Very unfortunate.





format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Brother may I dare ask U again how u jumped to conclusion that my above statement reflects certain image of Islam? Plz be clear, coz I m a bit confused by ur words.
You said:
"Brother Ansar here I must add that my views are not based on media report at all. I have already made it clear that I dont need media report to know how muslims behave."
I asked:
"What is it that is giving you this image of Islam if it is not the media?"
Basically my question was if you do not need media reports, then what are you basing your judgment on?
Reply

Cheb
03-21-2006, 05:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Well I don't want to offend - especially now I have heard about what you think about George Bush!

But take the Surat al-Ihlas which contains the phrase as-samad. What does it mean?

Tabari said

And His word: Allahu as-samad expresses (the diea): The One worshipped, He the samad, nobody except Him can be properly worshipped. The Quran commentators disagree as to the meaning of as-samad.

1. Some of them say: He is the one who is not hollow, who does not eat or drink. This opinion is held by the following people:
1.1 Abd-ar-Rahman b. al-Aswad <Muhammed b. Rabi'ah <Salamah b. Sabur <Atiyah <Ibn <Abbas As-samad is he (that) who is not hollow
1.2 Ibn Bassar >deletions< As-samad is the solid one who has no hollowness.
1.3 Abu Kurayb >deletions< as above
1.4 Al-Harit >deletions< as above
1.5 Ibn Bassar >deletions< As-samad is the one who has no hollowness.
1.6 Abu Kurayb >deletions< as above
>deletions<
1.16 Ibn Abd-al-Ala >deletions<

2. Others say that He is the one from whom nothing comes out. This opinion is held by the following people:
[Two names]
3. Others says that He is the one who did not begat and was not begotten. This opinion is held by the following people
[Three names]
4. Others say He is the lord whose lordship has reached its peak. This opinion is held by the following people
[Four names]
5. Others say, in reality as-samad is the enduring one who does not disappear. This opinion is held by the following people:
[Two names]
6. Says Abu Jafar (al-Tabari): With the Arabs as-samad means the lord to whom recourse is had, and above whom there is nothing. It is used in reference to their noble men.

Yet this seems a simple case of a simple word. In an important context. Not that long after Muhammed died.
Actually that word could mean all of the above. And all of the above actually make sense. They can all be applied as the meaning without contradicting or having any less of an affect to the verse.
Reply

justahumane
03-23-2006, 04:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
my statement: "If you refuse to accept that then you are sharing the same qualities as the Muslims that you critisize, ignorance. "
You replied?: "When such a vast majority of ppls who believe in guidence from ALLAH can be ignorant, why cant a kafir? "
I never said "vast majority" nor did I ever imply that most of us are ignorant. That is something that you said and implied(edit: I know you did not say it at first, I am referring to the second post). My statement was referring to the MINORITY of Muslims that are ignorant. Those are the Muslims that I would think you criticize.




400 million? where did you get that information from. So you know for a fact that those "400 million" Muslims earn interest. Still an unfair generalization.


The rich Muslims that are actually in power are the one that make the decisions. There are many poor and illiterate Muslims too that basically have no say. The rest are shut down whenever they oppose their leaders. See ignorance is not the word to use. I agree that if all Muslims actually followed Islam the way it was meant to be followed, the circumstances would be much different now. But as long as the greedy stay in power and look out for their own interest with the help of the West, change will be hard and slow. No doubt Muslims need to start to think about a realistic solution to these problems. Muslims are definitely not perfect, not even close, but so long as the weak keep getting weaker, little will change. Very unfortunate.







You said:
"Brother Ansar here I must add that my views are not based on media report at all. I have already made it clear that I dont need media report to know how muslims behave."
I asked:
"What is it that is giving you this image of Islam if it is not the media?"
Basically my question was if you do not need media reports, then what are you basing your judgment on?
Salam brother Cheb and thanks for ur post,

my statement: "If you refuse to accept that then you are sharing the same qualities as the Muslims that you critisize, ignorance. "
You replied?: "When such a vast majority of ppls who believe in guidence from ALLAH can be ignorant, why cant a kafir? "
I never said "vast majority" nor did I ever imply that most of us are ignorant. That is something that you said and implied(edit: I know you did not say it at first, I am referring to the second post). My statement was referring to the MINORITY of Muslims that are ignorant. Those are the Muslims that I would think you criticize
.

Brother I know that u never used the word vast majority, but I used this particular quote. I always say that vast majority of muslims are ignorant coz inspite of having the best and true religion, inspite of having commands of ALLAH with them, inspite of having the glorious islamic history to boast, and inspite of having the life of the holy prophet preserved for them, they failed to live according to the wishes of ALLAH and sunnah of the holy prophet. I know the fancy excuse of evil west and evil america who stops them to follow their religion, but I dismiss it bluntly, I may be right or may be wrong, but there is ALLAH to decide about that, coz he is the one all knowing. I m sure that u agree. So brother, U got me wrong if u think that I criticize a minority of muslims for their un islamic behaviour, NO, I criticize majority of muslims for their failure to live ISLAM in their lives. Its as simple as that.

400 million? where did you get that information from. So you know for a fact that those "400 million" Muslims earn interest. Still an unfair generalization.
Brother plz read my post carefully and tell me where I claimed that 400 milllion muslims earn interest? It must had been a unfair generalization had I made any such claim, but now its unfair on ur behalf that U misquote me.

The rich Muslims that are actually in power are the one that make the decisions. There are many poor and illiterate Muslims too that basically have no say. The rest are shut down whenever they oppose their leaders. See ignorance is not the word to use. I agree that if all Muslims actually followed Islam the way it was meant to be followed, the circumstances would be much different now. But as long as the greedy stay in power and look out for their own interest with the help of the West, change will be hard and slow. No doubt Muslims need to start to think about a realistic solution to these problems. Muslims are definitely not perfect, not even close, but so long as the weak keep getting weaker, little will change. Very unfortunate.
Brother I m glad to learn that at least two brothers agree on one issue. but here I must add according to my understanding that ALLAH hasnt ordered muslims to wage jihad only against west and america, I think jihad can be waged against anyone who oppresses. Again ignorance coming in the way of muslims. They feel tht as long muslims oppress them its okay with ALLAH. And jihad can only be done against kafirs.

You said:
"Brother Ansar here I must add that my views are not based on media report at all. I have already made it clear that I dont need media report to know how muslims behave."
I asked:
"What is it that is giving you this image of Islam if it is not the media?"
Basically my question was if you do not need media reports, then what are you basing your judgment on?
Brother I base my opinion (not judgement) on solely unislamic behaviour of muslims, who misrably have proven a failure to tell to the world what islam is all about. Media has no role in this, and I havent seen any media report which reflects islam bashing. And my own religion doesnt allows me to say bad words about any religion or faith. Plz check out my posts.

Thanks.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-23-2006, 04:52 PM
Brother I m not talking about some anonymous 'scholer' but almost all scholers. I had already requested u or anyone to himself ask about the translation of the verse in question from any schloler, he will himself tell u that ALLAH is talking to MUSLIMS.
So how did you interpret that as Munafiqeen?! You say that the verse is referring to munafiqeen and the scholars say it is referring to those Muslims who enjoin the good and forbid the evil.
Reply

justahumane
03-25-2006, 08:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
So how did you interpret that as Munafiqeen?! You say that the verse is referring to munafiqeen and the scholars say it is referring to those Muslims who enjoin the good and forbid the evil.
Brother I feel sad to see that u never fail to misquote me. I never said that ALLAH is referrig to munafiqeen. Plz read my posts carefully. Its only me on this forum to claim that ALLAH is referring to muslims. Others were just refuting my claim.

Thanks.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-25-2006, 02:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Brother I feel sad to see that u never fail to misquote me. I never said that ALLAH is referrig to munafiqeen. Plz read my posts carefully. Its only me on this forum to claim that ALLAH is referring to muslims. Others were just refuting my claim.
You said that it includes the 'fake' Muslims who are not practicing their religion, i.e. the munafiqeen and the faasiqeen. On what basis?
Reply

justahumane
03-25-2006, 03:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
You said that it includes the 'fake' Muslims who are not practicing their religion, i.e. the munafiqeen and the faasiqeen. On what basis?
Brother why dont u quote exactly what I wrote? I still say that I never said any such thing.
Reply

justahumane
03-28-2006, 04:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
So how did you interpret that as Munafiqeen?! You say that the verse is referring to munafiqeen and the scholars say it is referring to those Muslims who enjoin the good and forbid the evil.
Also posted By brother Ansar
You said that it includes the 'fake' Muslims who are not practicing their religion, i.e. the munafiqeen and the faasiqeen. On what basis?
Brother Ansar,

Plz quote my words exactly and make things clear, or just delete ur posts.

I know U are respected administrator of this forum, and I have all the regards for U too, but this doesnt means that U can write whatever U want to without any proper basis?

I hope U understand me. Plz do the needfull.

Thanks.
Reply

Cheb
03-28-2006, 04:37 PM
Greetings,

I believe brother Ansar may have been specifically quoting czbgibson rather than you. However, your points were pretty much the same and therefore his comment still stands. You believe the verse was referring to all Muslims and not true Muslims. Therefore Munafeqeen fall into that category and the question is still valid.

Peace.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-28-2006, 04:55 PM
Hello Justahumane,
You said
But ya, I m talking about majority of muslims, who inspite of taking shahada, chose to stray from the real path of islam, chose to violate laws of holy quran, chose to disobey ALMIGHTY ALLAH.
Here you are talking about faasiqeen and munaafiqeen who don't really practice Islam. Well the verse is very clear that the best nation is the one who enjoins what is good and forbids what is evil, so if these people don't do that, this verse doesn't apply to them.

Regards
Reply

justahumane
03-29-2006, 10:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Hello Justahumane,
You said

Here you are talking about faasiqeen and munaafiqeen who don't really practice Islam. Well the verse is very clear that the best nation is the one who enjoins what is good and forbids what is evil, so if these people don't do that, this verse doesn't apply to them.

Regards
Well I regret not to work hard on my english, I too could had made U understand had I done that. Well brother NO. I dont mean what U understand. I said that I m talking about majority of muslims, but I should have used the phrase so called muslims, which would be more appropriate.

I only want to say that the verse in question is speaking to muslims, who are supposed to submit to the will of ALLAH. And thats the defination of muslim, one who submit to the will of ALLAH. Those who dont submit to will of ALLAH are not muslims, but munafiqeens,fasiqeen, or kafireen. And this verse is not for them, coz they are not muslims.

So brother Ansar,my point is only that there are very few who really submit to the will of ALLAH, and they offcourse fall in catagory of muslims, and ALLAH is addressing here to muslims. As U have urself admitted, that this verse doesnt apply to them who are fasiqeen and munafiqeen.

So if anyone claims that there are 1 billion plus muslims today, than definetely he is trying to negate this verse. Its so simple brother. LOUD AND CLEAR.

3:110 Ye(muslims) are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.
Brother where is doubt? ALLAH is talking to muslims or not? How many muslims today can really stand up and claim that ALLAH is adressing them? Those who can are muslims, and those who cant are munafiqeens,fasiqeen, or kafireen. How sad that I couldnt made u understand this simpe fact. Is it clear now brother?

Thanks.
Reply

Cheb
03-29-2006, 05:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Well I regret not to work hard on my english, I too could had made U understand had I done that. Well brother NO. I dont mean what U understand. I said that I m talking about majority of muslims, but I should have used the phrase so called muslims, which would be more appropriate.

I only want to say that the verse in question is speaking to muslims, who are supposed to submit to the will of ALLAH. And thats the defination of muslim, one who submit to the will of ALLAH. Those who dont submit to will of ALLAH are not muslims, but munafiqeens,fasiqeen, or kafireen. And this verse is not for them, coz they are not muslims.

So brother Ansar,my point is only that there are very few who really submit to the will of ALLAH, and they offcourse fall in catagory of muslims, and ALLAH is addressing here to muslims. As U have urself admitted, that this verse doesnt apply to them who are fasiqeen and munafiqeen.

So if anyone claims that there are 1 billion plus muslims today, than definetely he is trying to negate this verse. Its so simple brother. LOUD AND CLEAR.



Brother where is doubt? ALLAH is talking to muslims or not? How many muslims today can really stand up and claim that ALLAH is adressing them? Those who can are muslims, and those who cant are munafiqeens,fasiqeen, or kafireen. How sad that I couldnt made u understand this simpe fact. Is it clear now brother?

Thanks.
I know that you were addressing brother Ansar but now I am confused.
One reason would be that you and czbgibson probably were not talking abotu the same thing.
Please explain further if you will. Basically what is your conclusion?
Peace.
Reply

justahumane
03-30-2006, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
I know that you were addressing brother Ansar but now I am confused.
One reason would be that you and czbgibson probably were not talking abotu the same thing.
Please explain further if you will. Basically what is your conclusion?
Peace.
Brother Cheb,

In fact brother Ansar misunderstood me, I never said that ALLAH is talking about munafiqeen or fasiqeen. There is no doubt that ALLAH is talking to muslims. But today's muslims (majority of) simply contradict this verse.

So brother conclusion is simple, if this verse is true, than it terribly shrinks Islam as a religion!!! Islamists have to think seriously while boasting about swelling numbers of muslims today. Specially when quranic laws have become obsolete and stale. A very little doubt remains.

My humble opinion only brother, I may be wrong too, but ALLAH knows the best. :) :) :)

Thanks.
Reply

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