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DaSangarTalib
03-04-2006, 03:53 PM
Already facing mounting international pressure over the treatment of detainees at its detention camps in Guantanamo, Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, the Bush administration lawyers, have stated bluntly that the new law that bans cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of detainees in U.S. custody does not apply to people held at the military prison.


Yesterday, in a federal court and in legal filings, Justice Department lawyers ruled that a detainee at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, shouldn’t use legislation drafted by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) to challenge treatment that the detainee's lawyers described as "systematic torture", arguing that another portion of that same law, the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, denies all Guantanamo detainees access to U.S. courts.

Then comes another episode in the series of U.S scandals involving the treatment of detainees held as part of the U.S. President, George W. Bush so called war on terror.

According to recently uncovered Pentagon documents, a British national, who was captured in Afghanistan in 2001 and later transferred to Guantanamo prison, described how police had sex in front of him, tried to feed him pork and misled him into praying toward America instead of Mecca, Pentagon documents show.

Feroz Ali Abbasi, who admitted training as a militant in Afghanistan yet denied allegations that he’s a member of Osama Bin Laden’s Al Qaeda network, tried to change his status from "enemy combatant" to prisoner of war in accordance with the Geneva Convention.

The British government negotiated his release in January 2005, and managed to free him a day later, saying the only information against him was “confidential intelligence”. But Abbasi was denied the right to even see that classified evidence during his hearing.

"Mr Abassi, your conduct is unacceptable and this is your absolute final warning. I do not care about International Law. I do not want to hear the words International Law again. We are not concerned about International Law," the colonel insisted before having Abassi removed.

Abassi’s testimony is included in the documents released to The Associated Press.

In the documents, Abbasi described how two military police officers had sex near him on two separate occasions; once, while they believed him to be asleep, he said, and another "while he was praying," The Age reported.

Abbasi also stated that one military police officer "knowingly and willfully misdirected" him to pray toward the north - the direction of the United States - instead of east toward Mecca, Islam's holy city.

Another officer, said Abbasi's statement to the tribunal, tried to feed the detainee "a hot plate of pork" - food forbidden by Islam.

Also yesterday, Fawzi Al Odah, a Kuwaiti national held at Guantanamo Bay described to the BBC in a rare interview how U.S. guards force-fed hunger strikers, which he said amounts to torture.

The strapped hunger strikers to a chair and force-fed them through a tube three times a day, said Al Odah, who has been held at the base since 2002, and was among the 84 Guantanamo detainees who went on hunger strike in December.

The BBC Today programme's Jon Manel submitted questions for Mr Odah to his lawyer, Tom Wilner, who has the permission to visit the camp.

Al Odah told the BBC that he felt like an old man despite being only 29.

"If anything bad happens to the United States anywhere in the world, they immediately react to us and treat us badly, like animals," he said.

"I'm always tired. I have pain in my kidneys. I have trouble breathing. I have pain in my heart and am short of breath. I have trouble urinating and having bowel movements.

"Death in this situation is better than being alive and staying here without hope," Mr Odah added.

The U.S. has said it is holding Mr Odah because he is a dangerous "enemy combatant". He dismissed the general allegations, branding them as "rubbish" and "absolutely untrue", but he refuses to elaborate, saying he’s waiting to discuss the accusations against at a court hearing.

The UN Human Rights Commission has recently stated that force-feeding at Guantanamo as a form of torture, a charge the U.S. strongly rejects.


Last year, the U.S. Supreme Court acknowledged the jurisdiction of federal courts over the detainees – no longer was Guantanamo a lawless land subject only to the President’s will. But Congress dimmed that light: the Graham-Levin-Kyl amendment passed last December so restricts the detainees’ access to federal courts as to be almost meaningless.

There is still time for the Administration to do the right thing at Guantanamo, Human Rights Watch says on its website- “Bush's admin should release detainees it has no legal authority to hold; it should provide courts-martial or criminal trials to detainees believed to have committed crimes; and it should allow the detainees to speak to outsiders who could tell their stories to the world,” the HRW says.
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Kittygyal
03-04-2006, 04:03 PM
am sure u posted this b4 :rollseyes :rollseyes :rollseyes

well am not sure:heated: :heated: so anyway ta for da info

take care
Reply

DaSangarTalib
03-04-2006, 04:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamgyal
am sure u posted this b4 :rollseyes :rollseyes :rollseyes

well am not sure:heated: :heated: so anyway ta for da info

take care
no i didnt this is fresh from Al-Jazeera news website..yes ive posted stuff before related to this subject but not this specific article

u take care well Insha'Allah :)
Reply

Kittygyal
03-04-2006, 04:08 PM
oh am so sori i thought u posted da same 1

well... at least i was ryt that u did post sumet related to this subject :)

take care 2
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Muezzin
03-04-2006, 07:43 PM
What makes this Human Rights organisation think that the Guantanamo administrative staff are really going to give a flying poodle's backside about detainees' human rights? The actions of certain soldiers there show that an ignorant, Rednecked attitude pervades that concentration-camp-style detention centre off the coast of Cuba.
Reply

afriend2
03-04-2006, 07:47 PM
salaam,

may Allah grant our brothers and sisters that are enduring suffering and pain due to the ignorant, the highest status of Jannah. :) :'(

wassalam
Reply

Rabi'ya
03-09-2006, 01:34 PM
Already facing mounting international pressure over the treatment of detainees at its detention camps in Guantanamo, Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, the Bush administration lawyers, have stated bluntly that the new law that bans cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of detainees in U.S. custody does not apply to people held at the military prison.

Yesterday, in a federal court and in legal filings, Justice Department lawyers ruled that a detainee at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, shouldn’t use legislation drafted by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) to challenge treatment that the detainee's lawyers described as "systematic torture", arguing that another portion of that same law, the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, denies all Guantanamo detainees access to U.S. courts.

Then comes another episode in the series of U.S scandals involving the treatment of detainees held as part of the U.S. President, George W. Bush so called war on terror.

According to recently uncovered Pentagon documents, a British national, who was captured in Afghanistan in 2001 and later transferred to Guantanamo prison, described how police had sex in front of him, tried to feed him pork and misled him into praying toward America instead of Mecca, Pentagon documents show.

Feroz Ali Abbasi, who admitted training as a militant in Afghanistan yet denied allegations that he’s a member of Osama Bin Laden’s Al Qaeda network, tried to change his status from "enemy combatant" to prisoner of war in accordance with the Geneva Convention.

The British government negotiated his release in January 2005, and managed to free him a day later, saying the only information against him was “confidential intelligence”. But Abbasi was denied the right to even see that classified evidence during his hearing.

"Mr Abassi, your conduct is unacceptable and this is your absolute final warning. I do not care about International Law. I do not want to hear the words International Law again. We are not concerned about International Law," the colonel insisted before having Abassi removed.

Abassi’s testimony is included in the documents released to The Associated Press.

In the documents, Abbasi described how two military police officers had sex near him on two separate occasions; once, while they believed him to be asleep, he said, and another "while he was praying," The Age reported.

Abbasi also stated that one military police officer "knowingly and willfully misdirected" him to pray toward the north - the direction of the United States - instead of east toward Mecca, Islam's holy city.

Another officer, said Abbasi's statement to the tribunal, tried to feed the detainee "a hot plate of pork" - food forbidden by Islam.

Also yesterday, Fawzi Al Odah, a Kuwaiti national held at Guantanamo Bay described to the BBC in a rare interview how U.S. guards force-fed hunger strikers, which he said amounts to torture.

The strapped hunger strikers to a chair and force-fed them through a tube three times a day, said Al Odah, who has been held at the base since 2002, and was among the 84 Guantanamo detainees who went on hunger strike in December.

The BBC Today programme's Jon Manel submitted questions for Mr Odah to his lawyer, Tom Wilner, who has the permission to visit the camp.

Al Odah told the BBC that he felt like an old man despite being only 29.

"If anything bad happens to the United States anywhere in the world, they immediately react to us and treat us badly, like animals," he said.

"I'm always tired. I have pain in my kidneys. I have trouble breathing. I have pain in my heart and am short of breath. I have trouble urinating and having bowel movements.

"Death in this situation is better than being alive and staying here without hope," Mr Odah added.

The U.S. has said it is holding Mr Odah because he is a dangerous "enemy combatant". He dismissed the general allegations, branding them as "rubbish" and "absolutely untrue", but he refuses to elaborate, saying he’s waiting to discuss the accusations against at a court hearing.

The UN Human Rights Commission has recently stated that force-feeding at Guantanamo as a form of torture, a charge the U.S. strongly rejects.

Last year, the U.S. Supreme Court acknowledged the jurisdiction of federal courts over the detainees – no longer was Guantanamo a lawless land subject only to the President’s will. But Congress dimmed that light: the Graham-Levin-Kyl amendment passed last December so restricts the detainees’ access to federal courts as to be almost meaningless.

There is still time for the Administration to do the right thing at Guantanamo, Human Rights Watch says on its website- “Bush's admin should release detainees it has no legal authority to hold; it should provide courts-martial or criminal trials to detainees believed to have committed crimes; and it should allow the detainees to speak to outsiders who could tell their stories to the world,” the HRW says.


source

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
Reply

akulion
03-09-2006, 01:39 PM
Well we cant expect any better from Hitler II and his forces not to mention Hitler II and a half (Blair)

May Allah swt punish them severely ameen
Reply

MetSudaisTwice
03-09-2006, 01:41 PM
salam
and tricking them into praying towards america and not makkah?? may allah give the non beleivers hidayaat and if rejected, may allah destroy the kuffars
wasalam
Reply

mizan_aliashraf
03-09-2006, 01:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by metsudaistwice
salam
and tricking them into praying towards america and not makkah?? may allah give the non beleivers hidayaat and if rejected, may allah destroy the kuffars
wasalam

Ameen Ameen Ameen. La'natullahi 'Alayhim Ajma'een
Wassalam
Reply

Maimunah
03-09-2006, 01:49 PM
subhanaallah.
i ask allah to guide them and to save the muslims from the evil ones.
amiin.
Reply

j4763
03-09-2006, 01:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by metsudaistwice
salam
may allah give the non beleivers hidayaat and if rejected, may allah destroy the kuffars
wasalam
For such an allegedly peaceful religion there’s seems to be a lot of violent words coming from muslims!
Reply

Cheb
03-09-2006, 01:53 PM
The reason why they use this method is because this type of torture is not really seen as serious for most Westerners. They do not understand Islam and do not know how serious such actions are. Therefor little will be done to stop this. Evil and smart.
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Maimunah
03-09-2006, 01:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mizan_aliashraf
Ameen Ameen Ameen. La'natullahi 'Alayhim Ajma'een
Wassalam
instead brother ask allah to guide them
Reply

mizan_aliashraf
03-09-2006, 01:55 PM
Salam
I did, but if there is no guidance for these people then we ask allah for their destruction.
Wassalam
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-09-2006, 02:16 PM
:sl:
YA RABB! GUIDE THEM OR DESTROY THEM! YA RABB! FORGIVE THE SINS OF OUR BROTHERS IN GUANTANAMO AND ALL OVER THE WORLD. AMEEN.
:w::rose::peace:
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
03-09-2006, 03:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
For such an allegedly peaceful religion there’s seems to be a lot of violent words coming from muslims!
:sl:

Didnt you read the article? The so called 'liberators' are definetly 'nice' people, 'freedom' supporters, and believers in 'equality'. Yeah right. And if we pray for their destruction we get labelled. But the fact is their destruction inevitable.

02-18. They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path).
Ameen to the Dua.

:w:
Reply

akulion
03-09-2006, 05:52 PM
The funny part is the soldiers are really thick it seems lol

they obiviously havent read the Quran where it says, "Righteousness is not wether you face the east or the west, but righteousness is feeding of the orphans, kindness to the wayfarer..."

(cant remember the full verse)

But the meaning of it basically is that "goodness" is not measured by wether you faced the mecca or not - but goodness is measured through your character and kindness that you do to others.

Furthermore, east and west both belong to Allah - so when a person has no clue where to face - his prayer is still accepted wherever he may face.

there is one famous story where one sahabah was forced to bow in the opposite direction of the Qublah.
He completed his prayer in peace and said, "To Allah belong both East and West; He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight."

lol

so those soldiers did nothing except demonstrate their weak intellects and horrible hearts
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------
03-09-2006, 05:58 PM
:heated: :rant: :eek: :mad: :raging: :uuh:
Oh My God :heated:
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-09-2006, 05:59 PM
Exactly brother, exactly.
Reply

Rou
03-09-2006, 06:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
For such an allegedly peaceful religion there’s seems to be a lot of violent words coming from muslims!
?? it is said islam is a peacful religon not a weak one...

If someone will strike at us we have every right to strike back...

U hear violent words? oppressed people will grow angry when they are oppressed in front of the whole world to see and nothing is done...


Quite confusing is your remark....

So for others to be violent seems not to faze you for others to abuse it matters not...but for one brother to rage at another brothers torture seems violent...

Truly amazing...:?
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bangalore bob
03-10-2006, 01:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rou
?? it is said islam is a peacful religon not a weak one...

If someone will strike at us we have every right to strike back...

U hear violent words? oppressed people will grow angry when they are oppressed in front of the whole world to see and nothing is done...


Quite confusing is your remark....

So for others to be violent seems not to faze you for others to abuse it matters not...but for one brother to rage at another brothers torture seems violent...

Truly amazing...:?

I'm not too concerned about what you are saying. My question is, 'What is with your Avitar ?" Is that you ? WOW !!!
Reply

north_malaysian
03-10-2006, 04:05 AM
They can flush the Koran, they can have sex in front of others, they can make Muslims pray toward USA, - I thinks all of that being taught in American churches. :rollseyes
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Cheb
03-10-2006, 11:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by bangalore bob
I'm not too concerned about what you are saying. My question is, 'What is with your Avitar ?" Is that you ? WOW !!!
I am guessing you havent watched Star Wars :)
Reply

Cheb
03-10-2006, 11:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
They can flush the Koran, they can have sex in front of others, they can make Muslims pray toward USA, - I thinks all of that being taught in American churches. :rollseyes
Well I really doubt it. We should not assume things that we do not know about.
Peace.
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Rou
03-10-2006, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by bangalore bob
I'm not too concerned about what you are saying. My question is, 'What is with your Avitar ?" Is that you ? WOW !!!
What is my avitar? my avatar is obi-wan-kenobi never heard of him?

lol and no thats not me...
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Rou
03-10-2006, 07:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
Well I really doubt it. We should not assume things that we do not know about.
Peace.
It was a fact that a koran had been put into a toilet cnn themselves are the ones who picked up on this and eye-witness reports by innocents who have returned from guntanamo have reported these and worse acts!

I agree nothing should be beleived without proof....

However is not the reports by US officals so many medical experts and SO MANY eye witness reports not enough to know that forget islamic but basic human rights are being crushed!?? they are treating muslims like ANIMALS!

we shud not assume things?...i say we should not ignore things brother....

It may make us sleep easier at night but our brothers and sisters still suffer where they are...

We need unity not doubt...
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Maimunah
03-10-2006, 07:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rou
It was a fact that a koran had been put into a toilet cnn themselves are the ones who picked up on this and eye-witness reports by innocents who have returned from guntanamo have reported these and worse acts!

I agree nothing should be beleived without proof....

However is not the reports by US officals so many medical experts and SO MANY eye witness reports not enough to know that forget islamic but basic human rights are being crushed!?? they are treating muslims like ANIMALS!

we shud not assume things?...i say we should not ignore things brother....

It may make us sleep easier at night but our brothers and sisters still suffer where they are...

We need unity not doubt...
true say brother
oh allah help us or our brothers held in guantanamo bay!
salaam
Reply

bangalore bob
03-10-2006, 08:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rou
What is my avitar? my avatar is obi-wan-kenobi never heard of him?

lol and no thats not me...

Wheew ! You had me for a moment.
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Rou
03-10-2006, 08:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by bangalore bob
Wheew ! You had me for a moment.
Nah man i dont have a lightsabre either...
Reply

Cheb
03-11-2006, 05:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rou
It was a fact that a koran had been put into a toilet cnn themselves are the ones who picked up on this and eye-witness reports by innocents who have returned from guntanamo have reported these and worse acts!

I agree nothing should be beleived without proof....

However is not the reports by US officals so many medical experts and SO MANY eye witness reports not enough to know that forget islamic but basic human rights are being crushed!?? they are treating muslims like ANIMALS!

we shud not assume things?...i say we should not ignore things brother....

It may make us sleep easier at night but our brothers and sisters still suffer where they are...

We need unity not doubt...
I agree with you brother but you misunderstood me. I was actually talking about the part where he was talking about what they teach in church, not the Quran part.
But ya we need unity in Islam if we are ever to get out of this slump.
Peace.
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Anonymous.92
03-11-2006, 05:59 AM
May Allah grant the believers sabr in times of hardship. Inshallah
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Rabi'ya
03-11-2006, 04:10 PM
ameen to the duaa sis...

ameen

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
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Rou
03-11-2006, 11:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
I agree with you brother but you misunderstood me. I was actually talking about the part where he was talking about what they teach in church, not the Quran part.
But ya we need unity in Islam if we are ever to get out of this slump.
Peace.
My apologise then brother..
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renak
03-12-2006, 09:55 AM
If the detainees in Guantanamo were officially charged, would this make a difference to any of you?
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renak
03-12-2006, 09:58 AM
I'm curious if anyone responding to this thread has a military background, or have researched the various prisoner treatments during wartime? The prisoner treatment at Guantanamo is nothing new or innovative. I certainly don't think that it is enough to create hatred towards the West.
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Rou
03-12-2006, 12:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by renak
I'm curious if anyone responding to this thread has a military background, or have researched the various prisoner treatments during wartime? The prisoner treatment at Guantanamo is nothing new or innovative. I certainly don't think that it is enough to create hatred towards the West.
If they were guilty i would still be upset at the way they are treated...the question is guilty of what...and second what war??

A war is when two countries attack eachother...afgan was not a war neither is iraq....

no one has attacked the US...

9/11 was a terrorist attack commited by neither the leaders of iraq or afganistan...

from northen ireland the ira bombed the UK..

Why would the UK start a war with northen ireland?

Treatment of war prisoners is disturbing either way however this is far worse as there is no war and these people are not in guntanamo for any crime they are there to state an example to send a message....
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HeiGou
03-12-2006, 12:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rou
If they were guilty i would still be upset at the way they are treated...the question is guilty of what...and second what war??

A war is when two countries attack eachother...afgan was not a war neither is iraq....

no one has attacked the US...
Well someone did. I assume you do not think it was the American government, but reassure me that you don't.

9/11 was a terrorist attack commited by neither the leaders of iraq or afganistan...

from northen ireland the ira bombed the UK..

Why would the UK start a war with northen ireland?
The IRA is not supported by the government of Northern Ireland. If they were supported, funded, protected, by the government of the Republic of Ireland, Britain would, I think, have reason to be upset. There is an Islamic precedent. The Treaty of al-Hudaybiyah was broken by fighting between the Banu Bakr and the Banu Khuza’ah. The Banu Bakr had a treaty with the Quraysh and the B. Khuza'ah with the Muslims. The B. Bakr attacked the B. Khuza'ah in retaliation for some earlier deaths. And so the Muslims went to war with the Quraysh. Was this wrong?

Treatment of war prisoners is disturbing either way however this is far worse as there is no war and these people are not in guntanamo for any crime they are there to state an example to send a message....
Well that would be no bad thing if it did send a message. But I doubt it. These people are not prisoners of war or they would be treated better. They are not there for fighting with the government of Afghanistan but with the Taleban and al-Qaeda.
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Rou
03-12-2006, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Well someone did. I assume you do not think it was the American government, but reassure me that you don't.
The IRA is not supported by the government of Northern Ireland. If they were supported, funded, protected, by the government of the Republic of Ireland, Britain would, I think, have reason to be upset. There is an Islamic precedent. The Treaty of al-Hudaybiyah was broken by fighting between the Banu Bakr and the Banu Khuza’ah. The Banu Bakr had a treaty with the Quraysh and the B. Khuza'ah with the Muslims. The B. Bakr attacked the B. Khuza'ah in retaliation for some earlier deaths. And so the Muslims went to war with the Quraysh. Was this wrong?.
Was it wrong? sorry i wasnt there to judge that nor am i here to judge that...
IRA were not supported by the goverment...

however your saying osama was supported by the taliban so for that they reason to attack afganistan...there was still no war my friend... the afganstani goverment never attacked the USA you can carry on with the osama was backed by the taliban so it makes sense... but it only makes sense to you... one man is no reason to attack a country!

You call that a war? it was a massacre.. what resistence? on whos borders did the taliban attack?

So easy is it to call it a war for terrorisem and kill thousands...i call it pathetic..
the afganistani massacre was but a excuse to gain control of afgan land and oil...

So what was the iraq war as you call it for? what war? when did iraq attack USA??

U seem to explain what you want and ignore the rest? so afgan was a WAR based on one man and iraq was a WAR based on what??

What is your point here? that these are wars? against who? terrorist states??
as i said iraq never attacked USA but its a war...so israel has never attacked USA but its known also as a terrorist state its also backed by there goverment yet i see no WAR?



format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Well that would be no bad thing if it did send a message. But I doubt it. These people are not prisoners of war or they would be treated better. They are not there for fighting with the government of Afghanistan but with the Taleban and al-Qaeda.
The message it sends is let us do what we want or this is how your life will become...Nice message...


Treated better...? very humane of you...Have you ever suffered pain? ever been humiliated?

Theres a diffrence here i would never want to see any american suffer that much as much as i dont want to see my brothers and sisters suffering...

Even if the american was a prisoner of war it is within our religon to show mercy to show respect...

There are laws within the quran about war and to show mercy and honour on the battlefield is strongest...

to keep someone in that state is sick and beyond understanding!?

how you can find anywhere in your heart to justfiy this is beyond me...
Reply

HeiGou
03-12-2006, 03:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rou
The IRA is not supported by the government of Northern Ireland. If they were supported, funded, protected, by the government of the Republic of Ireland, Britain would, I think, have reason to be upset. There is an Islamic precedent. The Treaty of al-Hudaybiyah was broken by fighting between the Banu Bakr and the Banu Khuza’ah. The Banu Bakr had a treaty with the Quraysh and the B. Khuza'ah with the Muslims. The B. Bakr attacked the B. Khuza'ah in retaliation for some earlier deaths. And so the Muslims went to war with the Quraysh. Was this wrong?.
Was it wrong? sorry i wasnt there to judge that nor am i here to judge that...
IRA were not supported by the goverment...
Why not? You seem to be doing a lot of judging. On what basis do you judge America's actions?

It is a simple question of Islamic law - if the Allies of the Quyrash attack the Allies of the Muslims, is that a valid casus belli? It is not as direct as in this case when the Allies of the Taleban actually attacked America, and not just once, and not just killing one man, not an Ally.

however your saying osama was supported by the taliban so for that they reason to attack afganistan...there was still no war my friend... the afganstani goverment never attacked the USA you can carry on with the osama was backed by the taliban so it makes sense... but it only makes sense to you... one man is no reason to attack a country!
And yet this is what happened with the Meccans. Osama was not only supported by the Taleban, who were not the official recognised government of Afghanistan, but protected by them as well. It made sense to Muhammed to attack Mecca and rip up the Treaty of al-Hudaybiyah when the Quraysh's allies attacked his allies. Do you know the phrase what is good for the goose is good for the gander? Why the double standard?

You call that a war? it was a massacre.. what resistence? on whos borders did the taliban attack?
Well what I call it is neither hee nor there but the US government does not call it a war or, as I said, they would be POWs and treated better.

A massacre? Well yes, I guess it was.

So easy is it to call it a war for terrorisem and kill thousands...i call it pathetic..
If someone attacks you, you sort of have to attack back. The US put up with a lot from Osama Bin Laden. He thought that meant the US was weak. Well there's a mistake he will not make twice. And assuming that Osama's messages mean what they seem to mean (please make peace with me, and, later when that failed, if you don't make peace with me I'll huff and I'll puff and blow your house down) presumably OBL is running scared.

the afganistani massacre was but a excuse to gain control of afgan land and oil...
What oil? Afghanistan is not worth it. No one thinks so. The US is paying half the government budget. It is a dump. A beautiful dump, but the entire economy is worth about nothing.

So what was the iraq war as you call it for? what war? when did iraq attack USA??
Well never as far as I can see. Always thought that was a bad idea. But at least the sanctions are gone.

U seem to explain what you want and ignore the rest? so afgan was a WAR based on one man and iraq was a WAR based on what??
Afghanistan was more than one man. Iraq seems to be a war based on a desire to finish the job and get on with it. But I don't know for sure.

The message it sends is let us do what we want or this is how your life will become...Nice message...
Well it ain't pretty but we are playing with the Big Boys now. The US did not start this. The US does not play as dirty as their enemies. But bad things need to happen to bad people.

Treated better...? very humane of you...Have you ever suffered pain? ever been humiliated?
It is unfortunate that they are being held as illegal combatants and it is a pity you do not see what I mean, but the fact remains if they were POWs they would be much better off.

Theres a diffrence here i would never want to see any american suffer that much as much as i dont want to see my brothers and sisters suffering...
Which is big of you. Not a feeling shared by many people in the Third World I have notice.

Even if the american was a prisoner of war it is within our religon to show mercy to show respect...

There are laws within the quran about war and to show mercy and honour on the battlefield is strongest...
Explain that one to me as it applies to women. It is within Western culture to show mercy and honor as well. Sometimes the West does. But then it is also within Muslim culture to kidnap peace workers and torture them and then execute them. Sometimes we do not live up to the best of our traditions. Neither your brothers, nor the Americans.

to keep someone in that state is sick and beyond understanding!?

how you can find anywhere in your heart to justfiy this is beyond me...
I am not justifying it. I just don't think it is the biggest injustice in the world at the moment.
Reply

Rou
03-12-2006, 03:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Why not? You seem to be doing a lot of judging. On what basis do you judge America's actions?

It is a simple question of Islamic law - if the Allies of the Quyrash attack the Allies of the Muslims, is that a valid casus belli? It is not as direct as in this case when the Allies of the Taleban actually attacked America, and not just once, and not just killing one man, not an Ally.



And yet this is what happened with the Meccans. Osama was not only supported by the Taleban, who were not the official recognised government of Afghanistan, but protected by them as well. It made sense to Muhammed to attack Mecca and rip up the Treaty of al-Hudaybiyah when the Quraysh's allies attacked his allies. Do you know the phrase what is good for the goose is good for the gander? Why the double standard?



Well what I call it is neither hee nor there but the US government does not call it a war or, as I said, they would be POWs and treated better.

A massacre? Well yes, I guess it was.



If someone attacks you, you sort of have to attack back. The US put up with a lot from Osama Bin Laden. He thought that meant the US was weak. Well there's a mistake he will not make twice. And assuming that Osama's messages mean what they seem to mean (please make peace with me, and, later when that failed, if you don't make peace with me I'll huff and I'll puff and blow your house down) presumably OBL is running scared.



What oil? Afghanistan is not worth it. No one thinks so. The US is paying half the government budget. It is a dump. A beautiful dump, but the entire economy is worth about nothing.



Well never as far as I can see. Always thought that was a bad idea. But at least the sanctions are gone.



Afghanistan was more than one man. Iraq seems to be a war based on a desire to finish the job and get on with it. But I don't know for sure.



Well it ain't pretty but we are playing with the Big Boys now. The US did not start this. The US does not play as dirty as their enemies. But bad things need to happen to bad people.



It is unfortunate that they are being held as illegal combatants and it is a pity you do not see what I mean, but the fact remains if they were POWs they would be much better off.



Which is big of you. Not a feeling shared by many people in the Third World I have notice.



Explain that one to me as it applies to women. It is within Western culture to show mercy and honor as well. Sometimes the West does. But then it is also within Muslim culture to kidnap peace workers and torture them and then execute them. Sometimes we do not live up to the best of our traditions. Neither your brothers, nor the Americans.



I am not justifying it. I just don't think it is the biggest injustice in the world at the moment.
LOL im judging??

You can not force someone to open there eyes..it is your choice..
You do not see it as the biggest injustice in the world...

Ok...

that is your choice...

You say that my brothers and sisters do not show the same compassion you may hear from me? they too are muslim they run by the same rules as me...

as i said there are stated rules when at war..from a prespective of afgan and iraq muslims have been attacked on the basis of a war against terror...

that really makes no sense..

As i said you answer no question instead you make new questions...

what was the iraq war for? US comes into afgan and iraq to start there own little war and you justify the death of so many innocents so easily??

Pathetic...

One man aint worth that many lives...

You do not seem to have all the facts..

as i said i have compassion for both sides i want justice..

You seem to be batting for one side and it aint justice its justification...

So calmlyyou sit there and explain how theres nothing in afgan fo US!? do you know of what you even talk ?? theres no oil are you quite sure my friend!?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/analysis/16777.stm

A report from 1997!!! without a coalition with the taliban and northen alliance there would be no pipeline there would be no coalition so where are the taliban now? and are those plans going ahead now ohh yes...

Also oil isnt the only factor! theres nothing in afgan expect what did you say?? a beutiful dump????

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3704878.stm

Thats 2004....wake up..

Your view is blinded......

Behead aid workers...oh please how would that make sense...
Yeah ok a bunch of insurgents grab a aid worker and behead him!?
Oh that will anger the west..oh we wont look bad will we oh it wont cause more hate for us in the west will it..

nothing to gain..

whatever you want to beleive you beleive..

this war was started for greed not weapons of mass destructions not osama not for democracy...

for greed...
Reply

HeiGou
03-12-2006, 03:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rou
LOL im judging??
Yes. Explicitly and clearly. Admittedly you are only judging kafirs, but if it is not wrong to attack pagans because their allies attack your allies, why is it wrong to attack Muslims if they allies attack you?

You can not force someone to open there eyes..it is your choice..
You do not see it as the biggest injustice in the world...
What in your opinion is the biggest injustice in the world?

as i said there are stated rules when at war..from a prespective of afgan and iraq muslims have been attacked on the basis of a war against terror...

that really makes no sense..
Well Iraq makes little sense to me, but Afghanistan makes perfect sense.

what was the iraq war for? US comes into afgan and iraq to start there own little war and you justify the death of so many innocents so easily??
Actually it took a massive terrorist attack for the US to justify those two wars. The US did not start either. Iraq attacked Kuwait. OBL attacked the US.

One man aint worth that many lives...
In your opinion but we have established you have double standards when it comes to Americans. 3000 lives. Remember that. Not one man.

as i said i have compassion for both sides i want justice..

You seem to be batting for one side and it aint justice its justification...
I certainly want justice, but justice has to include punishment for terrorists.

What sort of justice do you want?

So calmlyyou sit there and explain how theres nothing in afgan fo US!? do you know of what you even talk ?? theres no oil are you quite sure my friend!?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/analysis/16777.stm

A report from 1997!!! without a coalition with the taliban and northen alliance there would be no pipeline there would be no coalition so where are the taliban now? and are those plans going ahead now ohh yes...
Absolutely sure. No oil. A little gas. That pipeline would have taken oil from Central Asia to Pakistan. But the Taleban were happy to deal. As your article says,

The Talebans' minister for information, Mulla Amir Khan Muttaqi, said on Sunday that despite the presence in Turkmenistan of a Taleban delegation last week, the Kabul government had not signed any deal with anyone. Mulla Muttaqi did not rule out a deal with the UNOCAL-led consortium, But he also did not rule out a deal with a rival consortium, led by the Argentinian Bridas company.

Bridas have been competing with UNOCAL for the Afghan pipeline project for some time, The Turkmen deal with UNOCAL is clearly a severe blow to Bridas, though judging from the Taleban statement the Argentinians have not given up hope yet.

Why invade when they would have signed any such deal anyway?

And where is the evidence that deal is going ahead now?

Also oil isnt the only factor! theres nothing in afgan expect what did you say?? a beutiful dump????

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3704878.stm

Thats 2004....wake up..
Let me quote your source, "Afghanistan remains one of the poorest places on Earth."

You think the Americans invaded to protect the opium crop?

Your view is blinded......
Says the man who thinks the US invaded to protect heroin production.

Behead aid workers...oh please how would that make sense...
Yeah ok a bunch of insurgents grab a aid worker and behead him!?
Oh that will anger the west..oh we wont look bad will we oh it wont cause more hate for us in the west will it..

nothing to gain..
It may frighten the West. It may work to undermine public support for the occupation (which it has). It seems to work fine to me. But of course the insurgents do not care what the West thinks. They do not even care what the Iraqis think. Victory is God's gift to give to whomever He wants and so they are trying to please Him don't you think?

So you are claiming the CIA or Mossad is to blame? Oh la.
Reply

Kittygyal
03-12-2006, 04:08 PM
o ma god this man's write so much lol

take care
Reply

Rou
03-12-2006, 10:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Yes. Explicitly and clearly. Admittedly you are only judging kafirs, but if it is not wrong to attack pagans because their allies attack your allies, why is it wrong to attack Muslims if they allies attack you?



What in your opinion is the biggest injustice in the world?



Well Iraq makes little sense to me, but Afghanistan makes perfect sense.



Actually it took a massive terrorist attack for the US to justify those two wars. The US did not start either. Iraq attacked Kuwait. OBL attacked the US.



In your opinion but we have established you have double standards when it comes to Americans. 3000 lives. Remember that. Not one man.



I certainly want justice, but justice has to include punishment for terrorists.

What sort of justice do you want?



Absolutely sure. No oil. A little gas. That pipeline would have taken oil from Central Asia to Pakistan. But the Taleban were happy to deal. As your article says,

The Talebans' minister for information, Mulla Amir Khan Muttaqi, said on Sunday that despite the presence in Turkmenistan of a Taleban delegation last week, the Kabul government had not signed any deal with anyone. Mulla Muttaqi did not rule out a deal with the UNOCAL-led consortium, But he also did not rule out a deal with a rival consortium, led by the Argentinian Bridas company.

Bridas have been competing with UNOCAL for the Afghan pipeline project for some time, The Turkmen deal with UNOCAL is clearly a severe blow to Bridas, though judging from the Taleban statement the Argentinians have not given up hope yet.

Why invade when they would have signed any such deal anyway?

And where is the evidence that deal is going ahead now?



Let me quote your source, "Afghanistan remains one of the poorest places on Earth."

You think the Americans invaded to protect the opium crop?



Says the man who thinks the US invaded to protect heroin production.



It may frighten the West. It may work to undermine public support for the occupation (which it has). It seems to work fine to me. But of course the insurgents do not care what the West thinks. They do not even care what the Iraqis think. Victory is God's gift to give to whomever He wants and so they are trying to please Him don't you think?

So you are claiming the CIA or Mossad is to blame? Oh la.

??? ok.. i think your and my conversation is preety much over my friend...as it seems you dont understand the working of this world... america wouldnt protect the opium my friend they would use it to there advantage...

but let me guess im just talking conspiracy theories right?? just like the weapons of mass destruction were conspiracy theories hey? just like the way israel and its nuclear program is a conspiracy theory?

let me tell you something my ill informed friend you should not talk about things you do not understand and it seems you are truly quite uninformed about what muslims are or beleive in and also what americas true aims are around the world yet you dont seem to want to face up to those facts you merely steer clear of those questions...

what are you here to prove? that america isnt the bad guy in the iraq war or in afgan? that president bush isnt preety much a psyco?

U are in denial my friend you are looking for reasons to justfiy killings...what those people in guntanmo dont have rights? there prisonrs of war?

as i said what damn war??? only 10 of the 800 prisoners have ever been convicted of anything! 3 years of there life gone suffering so much for what? being in the wrong place? for being muslim?

U have justification for that?

3000 lives were lost on the 9th september 2001...

i do not justfiy there deaths they were wrong as they were innocent...

But you are telling me in place of those 3000 the millions that have died been mamed and those who are suffering today deserve what is happening to them...

Then truly you are blind to what justice is...and to what is truly going on in this world..

i suggest you find out what this is really all about and what suffering is truly taking place before you make your statments...
Reply

HeiGou
03-13-2006, 10:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rou
??? ok.. i think your and my conversation is preety much over my friend...as it seems you dont understand the working of this world... america wouldnt protect the opium my friend they would use it to there advantage...
How would protecting the opium crop work to their advantage? What sort of unhappy frame of mind do you have to have to think this sort of tning?

but let me guess im just talking conspiracy theories right?? just like the weapons of mass destruction were conspiracy theories hey? just like the way israel and its nuclear program is a conspiracy theory?
Israel and its nuclear program is not a conspiracy theory. There is evidence. Israel clearly has nuclear weapons.

what are you here to prove? that america isnt the bad guy in the iraq war or in afgan? that president bush isnt preety much a psyco?
I am trying to bring you back into the real world where normal people live. I am not saying America is not the bad guy. I am saying that the reality is more complicated than your simplistic Satanic conspiracy theories allow.

U are in denial my friend you are looking for reasons to justfiy killings...what those people in guntanmo dont have rights? there prisonrs of war?
I have said twice now that if they were prisoners of war they would have more rights. They are not prisoners of war but illegal combatants. Thus they have very little in the way of rights.

as i said what damn war??? only 10 of the 800 prisoners have ever been convicted of anything! 3 years of there life gone suffering so much for what? being in the wrong place? for being muslim?
For being in the pay of the Taleban and/or al-Qaeda or at least making the Americans think so. Three years of their lives is not that much compared to what the people who died in 9-11 lost. Injustices happen all over the world. Why pick on this one? Algeria and Morocco got around to exchanging POWs the other day. Care to condemn that?

3000 lives were lost on the 9th september 2001...

i do not justfiy there deaths they were wrong as they were innocent...

But you are telling me in place of those 3000 the millions that have died been mamed and those who are suffering today deserve what is happening to them...
Millions have not died. Millions are not suffering. In fact most Afghans and Iraqis are mildly better off. A few thousand have died. Maybe tens of thousands. That is bad, but the Us is hardly to blame.
Reply

Rou
03-13-2006, 06:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
How would protecting the opium crop work to their advantage? What sort of unhappy frame of mind do you have to have to think this sort of tning?



Israel and its nuclear program is not a conspiracy theory. There is evidence. Israel clearly has nuclear weapons. .
Do you understand the concept of sarcasem? Exactly yet they are never questioned or pulled up on the nuclear weapons they posses!? hello?

format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I am trying to bring you back into the real world where normal people live. I am not saying America is not the bad guy. I am saying that the reality is more complicated than your simplistic Satanic conspiracy theories allow.



I have said twice now that if they were prisoners of war they would have more rights. They are not prisoners of war but illegal combatants. Thus they have very little in the way of rights.



For being in the pay of the Taleban and/or al-Qaeda or at least making the Americans think so. Three years of their lives is not that much compared to what the people who died in 9-11 lost. Injustices happen all over the world. Why pick on this one? Algeria and Morocco got around to exchanging POWs the other day. Care to condemn that?



Millions have not died. Millions are not suffering. In fact most Afghans and Iraqis are mildly better off. A few thousand have died. Maybe tens of thousands. That is bad, but the Us is hardly to blame.

Your statments are ridiculous mate whatever man what frame of mind are you walking around in it seems what YOU term as justice is ok and whatever else any man is suffering is just fine?

ok mate whatever you say you think im the one who needs to be brought into what YOU call reality?? no thanx then im fine where i am....

At least i dont think its ok to leave innocents suffering so that some ponce can get a feel that the victims of 9/11 are getting some sort of justice!?

at least i aint thinking its ok to kill tens of thousands as YOU put it to justfiy the deaths of 3000 by one single group of people...

By what your saying we should all pack ogether and wipe out every american for the near extinction of the native americans my friend...

oh but that was in the past right!?

my god how old are you? can you not see how one sided and biast your view is!?

In plain its ok to wipe out countries to avenge 3000 deaths? that is preety much what your saying... then as i said more native americans have suffered and lost more than those 3000 lives should we wipe out majority of americans due to that!??

like i said im here for justice and yes my form of justice and that is to get those who are causing true evil on this earth for there own greed!

Not your justice that seems to condone as YOU put it tens of thousands suffering and dying for the deaths of 3000 americans!
Reply

HeiGou
03-15-2006, 12:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rou
Do you understand the concept of sarcasem? Exactly yet they are never questioned or pulled up on the nuclear weapons they posses!? hello?
Can't think why not.

Your statments are ridiculous mate whatever man what frame of mind are you walking around in it seems what YOU term as justice is ok and whatever else any man is suffering is just fine?
What is happening is clearly not justice, but again I come back to your unique concern for people arrested by the US and not for anyone detained for much longer in much worse conditions if they happen to be victims of Muslims. Why is that?

At least i dont think its ok to leave innocents suffering so that some ponce can get a feel that the victims of 9/11 are getting some sort of justice!?
Yes, but why not? You are not outraged about Morocco and Algeria holding each others nationals for 30 years. Why are you so upset about Americans doing it for 3?

at least i aint thinking its ok to kill tens of thousands as YOU put it to justfiy the deaths of 3000 by one single group of people...
That is not what I said.

n plain its ok to wipe out countries to avenge 3000 deaths? that is preety much what your saying... then as i said more native americans have suffered and lost more than those 3000 lives should we wipe out majority of americans due to that!??
It is not even close to what I am saying. Nor have any countries been wiped out. In fact Afghanistan and Iraq are making some progress. It is necessary to pursue terrorists and bring them to justice. If bad people resist this, they need to be opposed.
Reply

Rou
03-15-2006, 10:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Can't think why not.



What is happening is clearly not justice, but again I come back to your unique concern for people arrested by the US and not for anyone detained for much longer in much worse conditions if they happen to be victims of Muslims. Why is that?



Yes, but why not? You are not outraged about Morocco and Algeria holding each others nationals for 30 years. Why are you so upset about Americans doing it for 3?



That is not what I said.



It is not even close to what I am saying. Nor have any countries been wiped out. In fact Afghanistan and Iraq are making some progress. It is necessary to pursue terrorists and bring them to justice. If bad people resist this, they need to be opposed.
For one where did you get your assumptions that i dont care about anyone who is held or hurt by muslims!?? where is your logic!??? so i did not say that the 3000 in 9/11 were innocents in my eyes who died? or that the aid worker who was found murdered was not an innocent and may he have peace?? like i said you have no logic behind what u say?

Second

We aint talking about algeria or morocco! if it was mentioned perhaps you might here my view on it! instead of making it up for yourself!???

Can you not see how lost you are how seem to want to blame anyone but americans and try and put this whole you stick up for muslims rou on the table just to justfioy to yourslef what YOUR doing??

Im not here to first and foremost say oh you americans this or that im here cos i cant stand innocents suffering for the need of the greedy!! wether those greedy be american! Muslim! or chinese!

Just cos you view the world through A narrow view does not mean all do!
Reply

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