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sonz
03-09-2006, 08:50 AM
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

Jesus was GOD, then why did he ask for God’s Forgiveness in Luke 23:34

f Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?


If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 10:18 Jesus said? And Jesus said to him, why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isaiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?

If Jesus was GOD, then how come in Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death?

If Jesus was GOD, then how come in John 1:18 he said "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the FATHER'S side, has made HIM known." Where do you see Trinity in this Verse?

If Jesus was GOD, then how come in John 5:37 he said "And the FATHER who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard HIS voice nor seen HIS form," Jesus and the GOD are different. People heard Jesus, but never heard GOD.

can a christian pls clarify this???
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QURBAN
03-09-2006, 09:41 AM
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”


Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

Jesus was a Mighty Messenger of Allah, nothing more nothing less! Throughout the Qur‘aan, Jesus is identified fundamentally as a Messenger of God. In Chapter as-Saff (61:6)God quotes Jesus as follows:

“And [remember] when Jesus, son of Mary, said: ‘O Children of Israel, I am the messenger of Allaah sent to you, confirming the Torah [which came] before me.”

There are many verses in the New Testament supporting the messengership / prophethood of Jesus. The following are only a few:
In Matthew 21:11, the people of his time are recorded as referring to Jesus as a prophet: “And the crowds said, ‘This is the prophet Jesus of Nazareth of Galilee.’

In Mark, 6:4, it is stated that Jesus referred to himself as a prophet: “And Jesus said to them, , ‘A prophet is not without honour, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.’ ”

In the following verses, Jesus is referred to as having been sent as a messenger is sent.

Take into consideration what Jesus (PBUH) himself says about people sent by god-

John13:16- Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

In Matthew 10:40, Jesus was purported to have said: “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.”

In John 17:3, Jesus is also quoted as saying: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 7:16-Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 7:28-Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.

John 11:42 - And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said [it], that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 14:24 - He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Kind Regards

Qurban
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PrIM3
03-09-2006, 12:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sonz
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

Jesus was GOD, then why did he ask for God’s Forgiveness in Luke 23:34

f Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?


If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 10:18 Jesus said? And Jesus said to him, why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isaiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?

If Jesus was GOD, then how come in Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death?

If Jesus was GOD, then how come in John 1:18 he said "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the FATHER'S side, has made HIM known." Where do you see Trinity in this Verse?

If Jesus was GOD, then how come in John 5:37 he said "And the FATHER who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard HIS voice nor seen HIS form," Jesus and the GOD are different. People heard Jesus, but never heard GOD.

can a christian pls clarify this???
its quite funny how the Trinity works.. its funny how God works how the humor between Jesus and His Father.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-09-2006, 12:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PrIM3
its quite funny how the Trinity works.. its funny how God works how the humor between Jesus and His Father.
does that mean you dont believe in the trinity?::?
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PrIM3
03-09-2006, 12:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pr4sE
does that mean you dont believe in the trinity?::?
o no I believe in the trinity.. I am just stating that God has humor Jesus said some things that his desciples were like what?. sometimes he would answer people in such hard ways..
Jesus was probally not a big religious fanatic.. but He did teach. tought what He did. and what He knew.
Reply

renak
03-09-2006, 04:58 PM
I was raised Christian, active in the church as a youth, and attended Christian school. However, since christians are unable to adequately describe the trinity, it was largely ignored by my fellow protestants. I never remember a time in my life when I felt or was even told that Jesus was God. All prayer was directed toward God, not Jesus.

When I entered college I had to take religious courses, and I began to explore Christianity in detail. I must admit that this was the first time I really considered the trinity. It intrigued me, and bothered me that no one could adequately describe the trinity. Most responses were "have faith". "Have faith in what", I would ask. Did they mean to have faith in what church officials told their congregations? This just wasn't acceptable to me.

After many years of researching the trinity, I've come to the personal acceptance that it doesn't exist. In fact, I think that many practicing Christians innately believe that Jesus was not God. Just my 2 cents....
Reply

Cheb
03-09-2006, 05:03 PM
That is quite interesting. I have always read that ALL Christians believe in the Holly Trinity. if you dont then does that mean you are rejecting Christianity?
This is not an attack, I am really looking for an answer.
Thanks.
Reply

renak
03-09-2006, 05:21 PM
I really don't think that most protestants know much about the trinity. Catholics tend to be much more exposed to the trinity concept. Of course the protestant denominations originally formed because they felt that people should have a direct relationship with God, and they did not need to involve church officials in their relationship with God. So, I don't think that rejecting the trinity is rejecting christianity. Protestants are free to have their own religious beliefs, and interpret the bible in any manner they find acceptable.

My own protestant background taught that Jesus was the "son of god". I never remember Jesus referred to as "God". However, I must point out that by saying Jesus was the "son of god", it was meant that he was Gods son, just as I am Gods daughter, and you are Gods son. All sermons concerning Jesus emphasized the fact that he was human, just as we are (of course he was directed by God, favored, etc...).

Does this help?
Reply

j4763
03-09-2006, 05:27 PM
I was brought up Christian (born into Christianity). I had to go to Sunday school for 8 years and was taught a lot by my grandmother about Christianity. But not once have I ever herd that Jesus was God! Its always been that Jesus was the son of god!
Reply

Shahrzad
03-09-2006, 05:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
I was brought up Christian (born into Christianity). I had to go to Sunday school for 8 years and was taught a lot by my grandmother about Christianity. But not once have I ever herd that Jesus was God! Its always been that Jesus was the son of god!
I think it depends what sect you belong to..like how the trinity is emphasized in one sect but in some others its almost unheard of.
Reply

renak
03-09-2006, 05:46 PM
I think it depends what sect you belong to..like how the trinity is emphasized in one sect but in some others its almost unheard of.
It does depend on the Christian sect. However, I want to emphasize that Jesus being "God" is mostly a catholic belief. There are more than 2x the amount of protestants than catholics in the USA. Perhaps the majority of Christians in the USA aren't too far removed from the teaching of Islam. Gives us something to think about....
Reply

------
03-09-2006, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PrIM3
its quite funny how the Trinity works.. its funny how God works how the humor between Jesus and His Father.
:sl:

The Trinity includes the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The bible teaches the Christians that God is three unique persons; God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all part of the one God. God existing in Himself, so He declared Himself as the Father. God speaking His word, so He declared Himself as the Son. God alive in His spirit, so He declared Himself as the Holy Spirit.



I only know this because I did this in My RE Coursework...The above diagram should explain it..

PEACE

Tkcr

:w:
Reply

renak
03-09-2006, 05:56 PM
The diagram and description above are acurate representations of the trinity. However, this is not mentioned in the bible. It was constructed by church doctrine.
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sevenxtrust
03-09-2006, 07:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by renak
The diagram and description above are acurate representations of the trinity. However, this is not mentioned in the bible. It was constructed by church doctrine.
The Trinity is in fact mentioned in the Bible, not just the NT but also the OT. I have done much study of this important topic myself and have concluded that there is a Trinity. I am only saying this to show that people will always disagree on this topic, not just Islamics but also Christians. So may we see in Heaven the TRUTH.
Reply

renak
03-09-2006, 07:42 PM
Sevenxtrust, would you mind showing where the trinity was discussed in the old and new testaments?
Reply

abdul Majid
03-09-2006, 07:43 PM
can you show us proof of your claim seven
Reply

Cheb
03-09-2006, 07:45 PM
But how can you guys disagree with something so important?
Do you not see the flaws here?
Reply

sevenxtrust
03-09-2006, 07:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
can you show us proof of your claim seven
Yes, I will in fact give proof, but at the time I have some work to do. But I will be back as soon as I have a free moment. Sorry for the delay..Truly I am..
Reply

abdul Majid
03-09-2006, 07:46 PM
no prob seven
Reply

renak
03-09-2006, 07:49 PM
"But how can you guys disagree with something so important?
Do you not see the flaws here?"

Yes, I see the flaws...I think the disagreement is due to the changes within the bible, and the fact that the bible was compiled by mankind.
Reply

abdul Majid
03-09-2006, 07:53 PM
i agree renak, people have a tendency to wanna take control, at that time even more so, so they will change the word of GOD to fit their likings
Reply

Cheb
03-09-2006, 08:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by renak
"But how can you guys disagree with something so important?
Do you not see the flaws here?"

Yes, I see the flaws...I think the disagreement is due to the changes within the bible, and the fact that the bible was compiled by mankind.
Then how can you follow something that mankind has tampered with rather than God's words. I mean all these disagreements and contradictions are the cause of man tampering with God's words. You are bound to have mistakes.
Reply

sevenxtrust
03-09-2006, 08:03 PM
Here are some Biblical proofs of the Trinity,,and man has not taken-away the Truth of Gods Holy Word. It is earthly logic that states man has changed the Word of God.



Genesis 1:26

"Let US make man in OUR image": Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages: Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8. The unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that the Father was talking to Jesus.





Genesis 19:24

"Then Yahweh [on earth in human form] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh [in spirit form in heaven] out of heaven. Genesis 19:24. In this text Abraham is visited by three individuals, one being Yahweh and the other two angels. Here we have God on the earth (Jesus) and God in heaven (father) sending down fire from heaven. This incident when Abraham met with Yahweh God, is what Jesus referred to when he said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56) The unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that Jesus visited Abraham in Genesis 18 and 19.





Isaiah 6

Isaiah saw the glory of Yahweh, but John says that Isaiah really saw the glory of Christ. This proves Jesus is Yahweh. Combine this with the fact the Yahweh said, "Who will go for US" is a plural pronoun indicating more than one person in the Godhead.





Isaiah 40-55

Jesus echoes the "I AM" statements in Isaiah chapters 40-55. This spectacular link explores over 20 different passages in Isaiah and John.







Isaiah 45:23-24

I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. "They will say of Me, 'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him shall be put to shame.





Micah 5:2

But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.






New Testament Trinity Proof Texts





Mark 2:5-12

Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?





John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.





John 5:18

For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.





John 8:58

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.





John 10:33

"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. … Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?"





John 12:41 + Isaiah 6

A simple reading of the context of John 12 makes it clear that John is saying that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus Christ himself in Isaiah 6. This proves Jesus is Yahweh.





John 19:7

The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."






Romans 14:11

For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God."





2 Corinthians 13:14

Philippians 2:1-2

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.





Philippians 2:9-11

"Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."





Revelation 22:3

"And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servants shall [latreuo] serve Him."

Jesus worshipped in the highest sense of "latreuo"
Reply

abdul Majid
03-09-2006, 08:09 PM
lol seven i just wanted to say none of these proves trinity, its misinterpreted

when they say us or we....... also in the quran it says we and so forth,
Allah = Always singular - Never plural
[b]* "We" is used only as the "Royal WE" just as in English for royalty[/b
Reply

sevenxtrust
03-09-2006, 08:16 PM
"Plural of Majesty", "pluralis majestaticus", "singular of intensity", the "Royal we".

God is one in unity, but three persons:
"Let US make man in OUR image". (Gen 1:26)

To those who think there is even a single example of the "Royal We" in scripture we say:
"We are not amused!"

Introduction:

A. What is the issue?

Anti-Trinitarians and Unitarians alike, try to explain away the plural references to God in the Old Testament: "Let US make man in OUR image". (Gen 1:26)
While Trinitarians expect to find such plural pronouns and verbs used in reference to God at face value, anti-Trinitarians fall all over themselves trying to find a way to avoid the obvious truth that there are three persons in the one God.
As we will see, all of the Anti-Trinitarian arguments are invalid leaving us with no other conclusion then the fact that God is a plurality of persons, just as the Biblical trinity teaches.
It is clear that these plural references to God in the Old Testament we hidden until fully revealed by Christ and his apostles with the proclamation of the deity of Jesus. Jews could look back and see Jesus there in Genesis!
B. Understanding the various terms used in this discussion:

Plural of Majesty comes from the Latin, "pluralis majestaticus" and is also known as "singular of intensity".
"Royal we" "we are not amused" (Queen Victoria)
C. History of the "Plural of Majesty" argument:


"We are not amused"
Queen Elizabeth 1st would not be amused...
about they way Anti-Trinitarians twist every plural reference to God as a mere "Royal We". After all, Elizabeth was a Trinitarian, and would not be one bit amused that her own words were being used to trash the very trinity she believed in! "Let US make man in OUR image" (Gen 1:26) cannot be "Plural of Majesty" because this poetic device did not even exist in scripture until after the Old Testament was completed. The apostolic fathers had never heard of "plural of majesty", much less believe it. They unanimously interpreted Gen 1:26 as the Father speaking to the Son.


There are no examples in the either the Old or New Testament of Plural of Majesty. At the end of this document, we refute 5 texts that anti-Trinitarian say contain Plural of Majesty.
The earliest we find this poetic device being used in about the 4th century during the Byzantine era.
Other cultures that lived during the time of Moses never used the plural "Elohim", the way the Bible does, but instead used the simple singular "el". This nicely silences two different sets of heretics: First, it silences the Bible trashing liberals, who falsely claim the plural "elohim" is a carry over from a previous polytheistic origin of Judaism. Second, it silences the anti-Trinitarians, who falsely claim "plural of majesty" was widespread in all cultures in history.
The "Royal We" was made most famous by Queen Victoria when a vulgar joke was told in her presence. When she replied, "we are not amused", she clearly intended to speak on behalf of the other ladies whom she knew were equally offended.
D. False argument by Robert Morey often used by others:

"An Amazing Hoax: During the nineteenth century debates between Unitarians and Trinitarians, the principle of pluralis majestaticus was revealed to be a hoax popularized by the famous Jewish scholar Gesenius. It became clear that he used it as a ruse de guerre against Christianity." (Robert Morey, The Trinity, p95)


William Gesenius wrote his lexicon in 1846 AD: The Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon (1846 AD) is a translation of the "Lexicon Manuale Hebraicum et Chaldaicum in Veteris Testamenti Libros," of Dr. William Gesenius, a Jewish scholar.


William Gesenius couldn’t be guilty of such a hoax, motivated by "a strategy of war", when the plural of majesty dates back to the 4th century! Even Calvin discussed the plural of majesty.

Morey, although a Trinitarian, is correct in his view that Plural of Majesty is never used in the Bible, but this argument is invalid and needs to be withdrawn. He shoots himself in the foot by creating a false argument to teach something that is otherwise true. We need to be careful.
E. What scholars say about "Plural of Majesty":

"Every one who is acquainted with the rudiments of the Hebrew and Chaldee languages, must know that God, in the holy Writings, very often spoke of Himself in the plural. The passages are numerous, in which, instead of a grammatical agreement between the subject and predicate, we meet with a construction, which some modern grammarians, who possess more of the so-called philosophical than of the real knowledge of the Oriental languages, call a pluralis excellentiae. This helps them out of every apparent difficulty. Such a pluralis excellentiae was, however, a thing unknown to Moses and the prophets. Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, David, and all the other kings, throughout TeNaKh (the Law, the Prophets, and the Hagiographa) speak in the singular, and not as modern kings in the plural. They do not say we, but I, command; as in Gen. xli. 41; Dan. iii. 29; Ezra i. 2, etc." (Rabbi Tzvi Nassi, Oxford University professor, The Great Mystery, 1970, p6, )
"This first person plural can hardly be a mere editorial or royal plural that refers to the speaker alone, for no such usage is demonstrable anywhere else in biblical Hebrew. Therefore, we must face the question of who are included in this "us" and "our." It could hardly include the angels in consultation with God, for nowhere is it ever stated that man was created in the image of angels, only of God. Verse 27 then affirms: "and God [Elohim] created man in His own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female He created them" (NASB). God--the same God who spoke of Himself in the plural--now states that He created man in His image. In other words, the plural equals the singular. This can only be understood in terms of the Trinitarian nature of God. The one true God subsists in three Persons, Persons who are able to confer with one another and carry their plans into action together--without ceasing to be one God." (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, Gleason Archer, p.359, commenting on whether Gen 1:26 is a "plural of majesty")
"The best answer that they [Old Hebrew lexicographers and grammarians] could give was that the plural form used for the name (or title) of God was the ‘pluralis majestatis,’ that is the plural of majesty…to say nothing of the fact that it is not at all certain that the ‘pluralis majestatis’ is ever found in the Old Testament, there is an explanation much nearer at hand and much simpler, and that is, that a plural name was used for the one God, in spite of the intense monotheism of the Jews, because there is a plurality of person in the one Godhead." (The God of the Bible, R. A.Torrey, 1923, p 64)
"Another very popular view in modem times is that God uses the plural, just as kings do, as a mark of dignity (the so-called "plural of majesty"), but it is only late in Jewish history that such a form of speech occurs, and then it is used by Persian and Greek rulers (Esdr. iv. 18; 1 Mace. x. 19). Nor can the plural be regarded as merely indicating the way in which God summons Himself to energy, for the use of the language is against this (Gen. ii. 18; Is. xxxiii. 10)." (Trinity, A Catholic Dictionary, William E. Addis & Thomas Arnold, 1960, p 822-830)
E. What the apostolic Fathers say about Gen 1:26:


"The plural "We" was regarded by the fathers and earlier theologians almost unanimously as indicative of the Trinity" (Keil & Delitzsch, Genesis 1:26, Vol. 1, Page 38) Note: after observing that that the unanimous view of the apostolic Fathers was that "we" referred to the three persons of the trinity, he then rejects this and adopts the plural of majesty view. This is most unfortunate. If only he had known plural of majesty did not exist historically among the Jews until after the Old Testament was written in about 200 AD.)
180 AD Irenaeus "It was not angels, therefore, who made us, nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor any one else, except the Word of the Lord, nor any Power remotely distant from the Father of all things. For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, "Let Us make man after Our image and likeness; " [Gen. 1:26]" (Against Heresies 4:20:1).
I. Plural nouns and pronouns with singular verbs:

The easiest way to dismiss the argument that the plural pronouns applied to God can be explained as "Plural of Majesty" is to observe that the Hebrew has many examples of plural pronouns also being applied to single human individuals.
Plural of Majesty fails because we find plural references to both God and individual men.
If the Holy Spirit intended to use these plural references of God as "singular of intensity", then why does He intensify both creator and creation alike?
Obviously the, "Plural of Majesty" does not explain these plural references.
text
Plural noun
Singular verbs

Gen 1:1
Elohim (God)
created

Genesis 46:7
Sons, grandsons, daughters, granddaughters, descendants
brought

Judges 12:7
cities
Buried

Nehemiah 3:8
goldsmiths
Repaired


II. Plural nouns for "lord/master" (adonai) that refer to single individuals:


Plural noun
who

Genesis 24:9,10,51
Adonai
Abraham master of servant

Genesis 39:2,3,7, 8,16,19,20
Adonai
Potiphar is Joseph's master

Genesis 40:7
Adonai
captain of a guard is master

Genesis 42:30,33; 44:8
Adonai
Joseph, the master of Egypt

Mal 1:6 and throughout the Old Testament
Adonai
Yahweh, God. The second most common term applied to God is "Lord" and it is almost always plural.


"And if I am a master [plural adonai], where is My respect? says the Lord of hosts" Mal 1:6

III. Five "Royal We" Biblical Proof Texts refuted:

The "plural of Majesty" (royal we) is never used in the Bible. Arians (Jehovah’s Witnesses, Anti-Trinitarians (Christadelphians), Unitarians and Modalists (UPCI United Pentecostal church international), will appeal to the following Bible texts as proof of "plural of Majesty". These texts clearly are not examples of "the royal we" being used in the Bible.

A. "the document which you sent to us has been translated and read before me." (Ezra 4:18)

The letter was addressed, not to the king alone, but many others as well, so this certainly is not an example of the "Royal We": "To King Artaxerxes: Your servants, the men in the region beyond the River, and now " Ezra 4:11
B. "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony." (John 3:11)

The "we" refers to Jesus and the Father, as seen in many other passages: "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father." (John 8:38); "I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me." (John 12:50); "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true." (John 5:31)
Jesus' use of the plural WE (Jesus and Father) is also in response to Nicodemus' use of WE (John 3:2: Nicodemus and the other leaders). Jesus emphasizes the "us vs. them" challenge of authority between human and divine.
C. "just as he is Christ’s, so also are we. For even if I boast somewhat further about our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you, I will not be put to shame" 2 Corinthians 10:7-8

The use of WE and OUR refer to Paul and Timothy, who sent the letter (2 Cor 1:1).
It may also refer to Paul and the other apostles, since the whole context is Paul defending his apostleship.
To suggest that Paul uses the "Royal We" here, is as wrong as it is unwarranted.
D. "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" Galatians 1:8

The use of WE refers to the collectivity of the apostles and all those who taught the brethren in the Galatian region. This would include, Timothy, Titus, Barnabas and Silas.
No "Royal We" here.
E. "But he forsook the counsel of the elders which they had given him, and consulted with the young men who grew up with him and served him. So he said to them, "What counsel do you give that we may answer this people, who have spoken to me, saying, ‘Lighten the yoke which your father put on us’?" (2 Chronicles 10:8-9 and 1 Kings 12:9)

The obvious and natural meaning of "we may answer this people" is the King and his buddies, who collectively would formulate an answer together.
No reason this is the "Royal We" here.
Conclusion:

A. Jehovah’s Witnesses and other Unitarians argue that Elohim (Gods) and Adonai (Lords) are and example of "plural of unity" or "plural of majesty/intensity".

"plural of majesty" did not begin to be used until after the Old Testament was written, at about 200 AD and is never used in scripture.
It is wrong to take modern day poetic devices and read them back into a period of history when they did not exist.
It is wrong for Jehovah’s witnesses to read, "blood transfusions" back into the Bible’s prohibition against eating blood, when such a medical practice did not exist. (Of course just as drunkenness is condemned, except when you are getting your leg amputated for medical reasons, so too are blood transfusions exempt from all prohibitions on blood, on the basis of medical necessity.)
B. The evidence that "Let US make man in OUR image". (Gen 1:26) refers to the Trinity is irrefutable.

The Unitarians and Christadelphians are wrong because they say Us refers to God and the Angels. But man is not created in the image of angels, but of God. Jesus is not included in their view of US.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses are right to include Jesus and the Father in the US of Gen 1:26, but make Jesus the created arch-angel Michael. But Heb 1:5 proves Jesus cannot be, nor ever has been an angel. Further, in their self contradictory doctrine, they have Jesus the creature, as our co-creator (Jn 1:3; Col 1:16). But this violates Rom 1:25: "worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator". This passage teaches that if Jesus is the creator, as the Bible says he is, then he cannot be a creature. Jesus cannot be creator and creature at the same time!
C. Plural of Majesty is not the correct explanation as to why plural, nouns, verbs and adjectives are applied to God, because we find similar examples in the Hebrew language of the Old Testament that apply plurality to common creatures and things.

D. Such occasional usage's of plural, nouns, verbs and adjectives of God, man and material objects, are best explained as typical and normal for the Hebrew language. Its just they way they expressed things at times.

E. The plural nouns and pro-nouns applied to God, like WE, US, OUR, Elohim, Adonai are powerful evidence of the Trinity hidden in the Old Testament, to be discovered after the coming of Christ. The almost exclusive use of the plural elohim for God and adonai for Lord, make a strong case that any honest seeker could see. This extensive pattern is hard to argue away as plural of majesty.

F. To those who think there is even a single example of the "Royal We" in scripture we say: "We are not amused!"
Reply

abdul Majid
03-09-2006, 08:20 PM
lol who has wrote this, this is not of old, this is a comment from someone trying to bash the true claim of royal we,

therefore it is invalid, becuase it his in his interest to prove this flasly, i can do the same , but i choose truth over falsehood
Reply

sevenxtrust
03-09-2006, 08:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
lol who has wrote this, this is not of old, this is a comment from someone trying to defend the true claim of royal we,

therefore it is invalid, becuase it his in his interest to prove this flasly, i can do the same , but i choose truth over falsehood
No, you have just choosen the way of Cain and ran at Abel. O Great Harlot, how will you see, that mine and your scriptures are interpretted differently. God said himself in 2 Peter 1:20 to interpret scripture with scripture and not to lean on our fleshly understanding. Gods word will always make a mockery of mans logic!! Beware of your choice,,,there is only One True God and One True Bible.. But I see that you are not open to the True God..ask Him my fellow man. Mean what you ask and He Will guide YOU to the Truth..
Reply

abdul Majid
03-09-2006, 08:39 PM
? umm i beleive in GOD my friend, and by the way there is no 1 true bible anymore, its not found, and what is left is tempered with by man, so how can you beleive this?? word of someother man ?? just a regular fellow tampering with GODS word??

inthe Quran which never changed since 1400 years , it is the same everywhere you go, becuase this time GOD says he will protect it, it says

"Behold!' the Angel said, God has chosen you, and purified you, and chosen you above the women of all nations. Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him, whose name shall be the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and in the Hereafter, and one of those brought near to God. He shall speak to the people from his cradle and in maturity, and he shall be of the righteous. She said: "My Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?'
He said: "Even so; God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing,
He says to it, 'Be!' and it is." [3:42-47]
Reply

أحمد
03-09-2006, 09:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevenxtrust
No, you have just choosen the way of Cain and ran at Abel. O Great Harlot, how will you see, that mine and your scriptures are interpretted differently. God said himself in 2 Peter 1:20 to interpret scripture with scripture and not to lean on our fleshly understanding. Gods word will always make a mockery of mans logic!! Beware of your choice,,,there is only One True God and One True Bible.. But I see that you are not open to the True God..ask Him my fellow man. Mean what you ask and He Will guide YOU to the Truth..
:sl:

:? I'm just wondering why you chose to use singular instead of plural after your long essay on trinity? :) It just complicates things even further for you (not me) to call upon not only a unity of three, but as a single entity. As for the Hebrew; we'll discuss that in loads more detail in the near future Insha-Allah.

:w:
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The Ruler
03-09-2006, 10:48 PM
da article was interestin...:happy: :happy: :happy:

:w:
Reply

nimrod
03-10-2006, 04:27 AM
Jesus said he was/is the I AM.

The man that was Jesus was 100% man and was/is 100% God.

God is one, not three.

I am sure this will raise some questions from some, I will start addressing any questions tommorow at an earlier hour if everyday life doesn't get in the way.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

sevenxtrust
03-10-2006, 04:55 AM
Genesis 19:24

"Then Yahweh [on earth in human form] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh [in spirit form in heaven] out of heaven. Genesis 19:24.







Introduction:

A. Genesis chapters 18-19 is a powerful proof text for Trinitarians for these reasons:

First, is clearly shows Yahweh walking around on the earth in human form with two angels. They are called "three men". If Jehovah's Witnesses argue that they are called men, the fact remains that just as angels are not men, neither is God a man. Yahweh and the two angels are called men, because they appeared as men.
Second: God taking human appearance on earth is called a "Theophanies". There are several other examples of Theophanies in scripture.
Third, you have Genesis 19:24 that has two distinct Yahweh's: One on earth and one in heaven. "Then Yahweh [on earth in human form] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh [in spirit form in heaven] out of heaven. Genesis 19:24. Although the unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that this was Jesus talking to Abraham, such is a guess and not specifically known by scripture.
The unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that this was Jesus talking to Abraham, in Genesis 18. In this story, Abraham meets God (Jesus) and the two angels.
Jesus came right out and said He was the one who talked to Abraham. This is what Jesus meant when He said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56) God appearing to Abraham is an example of a Theophanies. Elijah is also said to have seen Jesus in heaven in Isa 6 + John 12:41. Jesus appearing to Elijah is not be an example of a "Theophanies" because Jesus was seen in heaven.
For Unitarians, Gen 19:24 + Amos 4:11 is a like getting struck by lightening twice in the same place! Amazingly, Amos 4:10-11 has two Yahweh's just like Gen 19:24 when talking about the exact same event!: "Yet you have not returned to Me, [Father]" declares Yahweh [Father]. "I [Father] overthrew you, as God [Son] overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me [Father]" declares Yahweh [Father]." (Amos 4:10-11)
B. These points are absolutely devastating to Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians and Christadelphians. They have no answers.

I. The context irrefutably proves that Yahweh was walking around on the earth, in human form, with two angels:

A. We begin with an expository examination of the texts with commentary to prove that Yahweh was walking on the earth in person in human form.

Commentary
Text

three men: Yahweh + 2 angels appear to Abraham
"Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. When Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth" Genesis 18:1-2

It was God who was standing before Abraham in human form.
"And Yahweh said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?’ " Genesis 18:13

Three men intend on visiting Sodom.
"Then the [three] men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. Yahweh said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, " Genesis 18:16-17

God, in human form says this directly to Abraham
"Yahweh said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do" Genesis 18:17

God, in human form says this directly to Abraham. This verse shows that Yahweh would go personally to Sodom and see for Himself.
"And Yahweh said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. I [Yahweh] will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know." Genesis 18:20

The two angels, called men, depart, leaving Yahweh behind to talk to Abraham.
"Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before Yahweh. " Genesis 18:22

Abraham replies to the man and calls him Lord. Notice the Lord (the man) intended on destroying it.
"Then he said, "Oh may the Lord [adonai] not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?" And He said, "I will not destroy it on account of the ten." " Genesis 18:32

Yahweh, in human form, left Abraham and went to Sodom to join the two angels who left earlier.
"As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham, Yahweh departed, and Abraham returned to his place." Genesis 18:33

Two angels visit Lot. During this time, these two are never called Yahweh, neither are they addressed by Lot as Yahweh.
"Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. " Genesis 19:1

Lot addresses these two angels, as Adonai, not Yahweh.
And he said, "Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant’s house"" Genesis 19:2

Notice the angels say that Yahweh sent them. Yahweh is not present with Lot the way he was with Abraham. The change is powerful proof of our major premise.
"for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before Yahweh that Yahweh has sent us to destroy it." " Genesis 19:13

Yahweh, the man who was talking to Abraham, was to destroy Sodom.
"Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, and said, "Up, get out of this place, for Yahweh will destroy the city."" Genesis 19:14

Again the two are called angels, never Yahweh.
"When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Up, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away in the punishment of the city." " Genesis 19:15

There are two Yahweh's present in this verse and the context. The man talking to Abraham, called Yahweh, was standing on the earth and commanded the city destroyed. Yahweh in heaven then sent the fire out of heaven.
"Then Yahweh [on earth in human form] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh [in spirit form in heaven] out of heaven." Genesis 19:24
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The Architect
03-10-2006, 05:06 AM
All I really have to say is that sevenxtrust has pretty much taken the words right out of my mouth. I would have said generally the same thing and provided the same information.

But I must state that you all are very close minded. Listen people, can either of our sides really prove that our respective faith is correct? No. Only in the end when God judges us all will we truly know.

Peace to you all.
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abdul Majid
03-10-2006, 05:11 AM
no your close minded, we can prove our prespective, and you can nooottt

If the bible is not the original what can you possibly tell me?? nothing, you have no prove my friend??
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sevenxtrust
03-10-2006, 05:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
no your close minded, we can prove our prespective, and you can nooottt

If the bible is not the original what can you possibly tell me?? nothing, you have no prove my friend??

O.K, who wrote the Quran?



AUTHORSHIP: It is difficult to even know who the author of the Quran truly is. Was it Allah (Suras 53:2-18; 81:19-24), or the holy spirit (Suras 16:102; 26:192-194), or Angels (Sura 15:8), or just the Angel Gabriel (Sura 2:97)?
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abdul Majid
03-10-2006, 05:17 AM
Nobody Wrote It !!

It Was Memorized From The Prophet(pbh), Through Gabriel(as)

They Started Writing It After Their Was A Shortage In People Who Had Memorized It, So They Could Preserve It
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The Architect
03-10-2006, 05:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
no your close minded, we can prove our prespective, and you can nooottt
That is a clear example of close mindedness right there. Prove that you are right, and I might convert to Islam. But there it is again, you cannot. And neither can I. I believe what I believe as a Christian, and you believe what you believe as a Muslim. I respect your religion, and I expect the very same respect of mine from you. =/
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abdul Majid
03-10-2006, 05:22 AM
Oh Please Dont Get It Confused.....i Respect You As A Person And Your Religion 100% Trust Me....

But When It Comes Down To It, Their Is Noo Origanal Bible!! Its Lost, So You Or Anybody Elses Claims Are Basicly Bogus, Becuase Its Mans Claim
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The Architect
03-10-2006, 05:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
But When It Comes Down To It, Their Is Noo Origanal Bible!! Its Lost, So You Or Anybody Elses Claims Are Basicly Bogus, Becuase Its Mans Claim
The Bible is God's Word. It has not been lost through the ages; it has just been translated differently for better understanding. There may be many different translations, but they all contain the same message.
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abdul Majid
03-10-2006, 05:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by The Architect
The Bible is God's Word. It has not been lost through the ages; it has just been translated differently for better understanding. There may be many different translations, but they all contain the same message.

NOT BEEN LOST??? WHAT DO YOU MEAN !!

THERE IS NO ORIGINAL

There are also different versions of the Gospel or what is commonly called The New Testament in the Koine Greek language and Latin and these also have many translations to even other langugaes.

Even amongst the English translations there are great differences. To mention two very clear differences for example; the Catholic Bible [c. 325 A.D] contains 73 books in total, while the Protestant Bible contains only 66 books, and although the newer (Protestant version) was taken from the Catholic Bible even then these books do not match completely with each other.

There is no common denominator for any of the many different versions of the Bible.
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moujahid
03-10-2006, 05:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by The Architect
The Bible is God's Word. It has not been lost through the ages; it has just been translated differently for better understanding. There may be many different translations, but they all contain the same message.
It looks like you are not reading or watching from the same sources as the rest of the truth seekers. its almost a joke really when i hear things like these.
You should perhaps look up for some debates of Ahmed deedat or zakir naik or change your sources of learning.
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Mohsin
03-10-2006, 09:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by renak
The diagram and description above are acurate representations of the trinity. However, this is not mentioned in the bible. It was constructed by church doctrine.

Hey renak, i'm just wondering, what are your reasons for rejecting islam. I mean you believe in One God and not the trinity, you believe he was not Son of God just a messenger (I believe), and you also seem to agree the bible has been changed in some parts.
If you look at islam we believe similarly, we are so close to him, if you look at how he prayed in the bible, we pray just like he did, we do ablution just like he did, he didn't eat pork, was circumcised, didn't drink, had a beard, wore a dress similar to what muslims wear, he greeted people in the same way muslims greet people. So much stuff. Was just curious, i'm sure you have your reasons.
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Muslim Knight
03-10-2006, 11:58 AM
:sl: to my Muslim brothers & sisters and greetings of peace to others,

So if this Trinity is so important for your (Christian) salvation, why has it only shown up just during Paul (after the ascension of Jesus) and not during the time of Jesus or the Messengers of God before him (Moses, Abraham, Noah all emphasized on the Oneness of God). What will happen to those Prophets who at their respective times, have no knowledge nor idea of the Trinity?

Does this mean they had no salvation and will all go to hell because they have not known Jesus, nor they had the chance to meet him during their lifetime because Jesus was born later?

Can you Christians please explain what will happen to our real father, Adam and the righteous people who went after him right up till Jesus was born? What does your Trinity say about them? According to your Trinity, they will all certainly go to hell because they don't believe in it, much less mention about it (no record of them having taught about it, that's why Trinity isn't mentioned in the Bible). For if the Trinity says all the righteous and God-fearing people before Jesus like Job, Noah and all the rest will all go to hell because they do not believe in the Trinity, then Christianity is indeed a cruel religion.

So why does it then, when Paul arrives he made so much fuss about Trinity when the earlier Prophets including Jesus were silent about it.

You know what, I think Paul is the real culprit here. He fabricated the Trinity, legalized the wine and pork against the Law and then says, "This is not what Jesus saith, but if thou believeth in Jesus, thou believeth me!!" And you Christians claim you love Jesus but you follow Paul instead.

:w:
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renak
03-10-2006, 12:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Moss
Hey renak, i'm just wondering, what are your reasons for rejecting islam. I mean you believe in One God and not the trinity, you believe he was not Son of God just a messenger (I believe), and you also seem to agree the bible has been changed in some parts.
If you look at islam we believe similarly, we are so close to him, if you look at how he prayed in the bible, we pray just like he did, we do ablution just like he did, he didn't eat pork, was circumcised, didn't drink, had a beard, wore a dress similar to what muslims wear, he greeted people in the same way muslims greet people. So much stuff. Was just curious, i'm sure you have your reasons.

I haven't rejected Islam. I have never been introduced to Islam. The information that I do know has been from my own research. I grew up with a family whose father was an Imam in the Nation of Islam. I still don't understand the difference between Islam and Nation of Islam. I just always thought that they didn't share the religion with me because I was white. lol
Nonetheless, they were a very humble, and honest family whom I've always admired.

In many ways I do share the beliefs of Islam (from what I've researched); however, my knowledge stops at Jesus. In case you are wondering I was raised Wesleyan (conservative Methodist), and have some family background which was Mormon, and Baptist. I now just attend the Christian Unitarian church. My schooling was from a Christian nondenominational liberal arts institution, which required the study of various religions.
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j4763
03-10-2006, 01:17 PM
O.K, who wrote the Quran?
Nobody Wrote It !!

It Was Memorized From The Prophet(pbh), Through Gabriel(as)

They Started Writing It After Their Was A Shortage In People Who Had Memorized It, So They Could Preserve It
Bit of a contradiction here. In the first line “nobody wrote it” then in the third “They Started Writing It”.

What I’ve been lead to believe is the Quran was written by Mohammad’s followers because he couldn’t write it cos he couldn’t read or write.
If he was illiterate how did he know the right stuff had be written down?
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The Architect
03-10-2006, 01:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by moujahid
It looks like you are not reading or watching from the same sources as the rest of the truth seekers. its almost a joke really when i hear things like these.
You should perhaps look up for some debates of Ahmed deedat or zakir naik or change your sources of learning.
For the record, I have read Zakir Naik's teachings, and they are not convincing. Also, his ideas on Christianity are very biased. He tries to disprove the Trinity, and does indeed deny it in his own respective religion. But he leaves out crucial verses from the Bible that imply the concept of the Trinity. Such are as follows:
  • Mat 28:19: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (see Trinitarian formula).


  • Mat 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."'" (These and other verses exemplify the argument that Jesus did not refute the Old Testament prohibition against worshipping any god but God, and yet he states that the Son and Holy Spirit are to be involved in worship as well, implying that the Son and Holy Spirit must be, in some sense, God.)


  • John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." together with John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." and John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known."


  • John 8:23-24: "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." (The expression "the one I claim to be" is not in the Greek, it is simply "I am" -- the translators felt that the thought was incomplete as it stood and supplied the expression to complete the sense. This is not necessary if "I am" is a title, as in Exodus 3:14.)


  • John 8:58 "'I tell you the truth', Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (This formulation mirrors Exodus 3:14 "God said to Moses, 'I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: "I AM has sent me to you."'")


  • John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." (Jesus is speaking here. The use of the Greek neuter form ἕν indicates one "thing", i.e., the same substance. Alleged contradictions between this interpretation and verses that indicate a subordination of the Son to the Father are explained in reference to the two natures of Christ, the divine nature being identical with that of the Father, and the human nature, with a human intellect and will, being subject to the Father.)


  • John 10:38: "But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."


  • Col 2:9: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"


  • Rev 1:17-18: "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." (This formulation mirrors
    Isaiah 44:6 and Isaiah 48:12 where "the First and Last" is a Divine title.)


The Trinity concept is even implied in Genesis 1:1.

"In Beginning Elohim"

Within the pages of Scripture we find it clearly stated that there is indeed, only one God.1 This is a fundamental belief of Judaism and Christianity. However, there are indications in the very first verse of Genesis that God is a plural Being.

"In the beginning God, created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1

The word used for God in Genesis 1:1 is "Elohim," which is a form of the word "El." In the context of Genesis 1:1, there can certainly be no doubt as to who is doing the creating. In the Hebrew language the "im" ending imputes plurality. Therefore, "Elohim" is the plural from of the word "El."

It is interesting to note that each usage of this word throughout the Bible is grammatically incorrect. It is a plural noun used with singular verbs. According to Genesis 1:1, the Creator of the Universe, Elohim, exists as a plural being.

If this were not so then the word "El" or perhaps Yahweh would have been used. However, the Holy Spirit chose to use the word "Elohim," the plural form of the name of God in the very first place where the name of God is proclaimed.

"Let Us Make Man in Our Image"

"And God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'" Genesis 1:26, (Jewish Publication Society version, 1917)

The plurality of God is also discovered in the creation of man. According to this fascinating verse, man was created by God in his own image. However, there is something provocative and unexpected in this verse. Prior to the creation of man we find a conversation between God (Elohim) and an unidentified being ("let Us make man in Our image"). Who is this person with whom God is speaking?

This person, or intelligent being, has some attributes that we can glean from the text. First, the personage is able to speak with God "on His turf", that is, in the realm of timeless eternity.

Secondly, this being apparently has the same kind of creative ability as God ("Let US make"). This describes a cooperative effort between Elohim and the person with whom He is speaking.

Finally, the likeness or image of this being is comparable to God's ("In Our image, after Our likeness").

When confronted with this passage, modern rabbis often claim that God is speaking to the angels. However, this explanation fails to recognize a number of problems.

First, there is no indication in the Bible that angels can create life. Secondly, nowhere is it indicated that angels are made in the image of God. Finally, there is no indication that mankind was made in the image of angels either!

We may conclude that the person with whom Elohim is conversing lives in the eternal realm, has His creative power and exists in the image or likeness of God. No angel, no man, no created being in heaven or on earth could possibly fit these criteria.

The plurality of God is also seen in Genesis 3:22. After Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of Eden we find a fascinating conversation:

"The LORD God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of US, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever'" Genesis 3:22 (NKJ).

"Man has become like one of US." To whom is the LORD talking?

Again in Genesis 11:7, God is discussing His solution to the whole earth having one language at the time of the Tower of Babel:

"Come, let US go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." Genesis 11:7 (NKJ).

The fact that the LORD (Yahweh) refers to Himself in these passages as "Us," is indeed a fascinating hint to the plurality of God.

http://www.direct.ca/trinity/elohim.html

I would post more, but I have have to get to my psychology class. I'm in school right now. Later!
Reply

Muslim Knight
03-10-2006, 04:32 PM
What I’ve been lead to believe is the Quran was written by Mohammad’s followers because he couldn’t write it cos he couldn’t read or write.
If he was illiterate how did he know the right stuff had be written down?
He dictated the verses to his Companions after he received them from the Angel Gabriel.
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Muslim Knight
03-10-2006, 05:42 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by muslim knight

So if this Trinity is so important for your (Christian) salvation, why has it only shown up just during Paul (after the ascension of Jesus) and not during the time of Jesus or the Messengers of God before him (Moses, Abraham, Noah all emphasized on the Oneness of God). What will happen to those Prophets who at their respective times, have no knowledge nor idea of the Trinity?

Does this mean they had no salvation and will all go to hell because they have not known Jesus, nor they had the chance to meet him during their lifetime because Jesus was born later?

Can you Christians please explain what will happen to our real father, Adam and the righteous people who went after him right up till Jesus was born? What does your Trinity say about them? According to your Trinity, they will all certainly go to hell because they don't believe in it, much less mention about it (no record of them having taught about it, that's why Trinity isn't mentioned in the Bible). For if the Trinity says all the righteous and God-fearing people before Jesus like Job, Noah and all the rest will all go to hell because they do not believe in the Trinity, then Christianity is indeed a cruel religion.

So why does it then, when Paul arrives he made so much fuss about Trinity when the earlier Prophets including Jesus were silent about it.

You know what, I think Paul is the real culprit here. He fabricated the Trinity, legalized the wine and pork against the Law and then says, "This is not what Jesus saith, but if thou believeth in Jesus, thou believeth me!!" And you Christians claim you love Jesus but you follow Paul instead.

:w:
Still waiting for the Christians to respond here. Why, for thousands of years as Messengers were sent to guide mankind so long as it has existed before, never so much mentioned about Trinity, Jesus being the Son of God and all the rest. Does all the righteous people of those Messengers' times then go to hell for not baptising themselves in Jesus name? Because Jesus was not yet born?

:w:
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The Architect
03-10-2006, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslim knight
:sl:



Still waiting for the Christians to respond here. Why, for thousands of years as Messengers were sent to guide mankind so long as it has existed before, never so much mentioned about Trinity, Jesus being the Son of God and all the rest. Does all the righteous people of those Messengers' times then go to hell for not baptising themselves in Jesus name? Because Jesus was not yet born?

:w:
Read my above post. The Trinity was not given a name at that time, but the concept was implied before Jesus' death and ressurection.
Reply

Muslim Knight
03-10-2006, 06:24 PM
Yet you fail to answer what will happen to those Messengers and pious men of ancient times I've mentioned. According to your Trinity, they will still go to hell because they haven't been baptized in Jesus name, because they all carry the Original Sin which Jesus needed to die to erase it from mankind. Like a baby born to Muslim parents, who dies 2-3 days later having not baptized as a Christian, and will certainly be doomed to hell, according to your Trinity.
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Muhammad
03-10-2006, 08:04 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by The Architect
But I must state that you all are very close minded. Listen people, can either of our sides really prove that our respective faith is correct? No. Only in the end when God judges us all will we truly know.
If God established a religion to be followed on earth that would lead its inhabitants to salvation, then surely He would allow it to be distinguished from falsehood? What use will it be to a person to know the truth when we meet God for judgement, when it will be too late to follow the truth and too late to regret one's actions? The time to search for the truth is now, and truth always prevails over falsehood.

So if you examine the two religions properly, you will see how one is perfect and easy to comprehend, whereas the other one's distortions make it hard to follow.

format_quote Originally Posted by sevenxtrust
O.K, who wrote the Quran?

AUTHORSHIP: It is difficult to even know who the author of the Quran truly is. Was it Allah (Suras 53:2-18; 81:19-24), or the holy spirit (Suras 16:102; 26:192-194), or Angels (Sura 15:8), or just the Angel Gabriel (Sura 2:97)?
If you actually read the verses, you will be able to answer your own question. Let's a take a quick look at them:

[16.102] Say: The Holy spirit has revealed it from your Lord with the truth, that it may establish those who believe and as a guidance and good news for those who submit.

This clearly indicates that the Holy Spirit is a messenger, who is conveying the message from his Lord.

[26.192] And most surely this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
[26.193] The Faithful Spirit has descended with it,

I hope you can see the same message as the above being given here .


[15.7] Why do you not bring to us the angels if you are of the truthful ones?
[15.8] We do not send the angels but with truth, and then they would not be respited.

This still does not agree with your point as it does not state that the revelation was of the angels' own making.

Nobody Wrote It !!

It Was Memorized From The Prophet(pbh), Through Gabriel(as)

They Started Writing It After Their Was A Shortage In People Who Had Memorized It, So They Could Preserve It
Bit of a contradiction here. In the first line “nobody wrote it” then in the third “They Started Writing It”.
What was meant by "nobody wrote it" was that the Qur'an is not a product created by mankind; it was inspired to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) by God, in various ways.

"They started writing it" refers to the preservation of the Qur'an after it was fully revealed.

format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
If he was illiterate how did he know the right stuff had be written down?
Many people learnt the Qur'an by heart, and the proper compilation of the Qur'an occurred after the Prophet's (peace be upon him) death. If you would like to know more about it, there are threads about it here and here.

Peace.
Reply

abdul Majid
03-10-2006, 08:12 PM
Well Said Brother
Barakallahfeek
Salam Alakum
Reply

Maimunah
03-10-2006, 09:50 PM
subhanaallah
good one bro mohammad
salaam
Reply

The Architect
03-10-2006, 10:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings,
If God established a religion to be followed on earth that would lead its inhabitants to salvation, then surely He would allow it to be distinguished from falsehood? What use will it be to a person to know the truth when we meet God for judgement, when it will be too late to follow the truth and too late to regret one's actions? The time to search for the truth is now, and truth always prevails over falsehood.
You believe that Christianity is falsehood and I believe that Islam is falsehood. However, that is beside the point.

God knows about everything we will do in our future, all the decisions we will make, all the choices that determine our place in this world, whether it be with Him or not. Religion was a product of man; religion is based on events that people believe are divine or spiritual or symbolic in some sense i.e. Jesus dying on the cross for example. God did not create either of our respective religions. The religion itself, the worship of God was man's choice. Man chose to worship God in a way that he felt was suitable to himself, and laws (not the Ten Commandments) created by man were (and in some places, still are) regulated by religion. Only God truly knows which religion is the correct one, and He has made His choice in advance.

Peace.
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Muhammad
03-11-2006, 12:25 AM
Greetings The Architect,

format_quote Originally Posted by The Architect
God knows about everything we will do in our future, all the decisions we will make, all the choices that determine our place in this world, whether it be with Him or not.
I agree with this, though I don't see how it invalidates the need to worship God in the manner that He ordained.

Religion was a product of man; religion is based on events that people believe are divine or spiritual or symbolic in some sense i.e. Jesus dying on the cross for example. God did not create either of our respective religions. The religion itself, the worship of God was man's choice. Man chose to worship God in a way that he felt was suitable to himself, and laws (not the Ten Commandments) created by man were (and in some places, still are) regulated by religion.
I find it strange for a Christian to be saying this, since I doubt much of this is endorsed by Christianity. If God did not create a religion, and worship is man's own choice, then why do you say that God "knows which religion is the correct one"? Moreover, what is our purpose here on earth? Why would God create us and then leave us in darkness, not knowing right from wrong... and then inform us of the truth after we have served our time on earth? None of this makes any logical sense, especially when we know that God is Loving and Just.

Now let's look at the other perspective: that there has always been a religion, consisting of a very simple message. This message is to worship the one and only God who created everything, without any partners. At the beginning, this is what people were upon, and everything was fine until satan misguided them and caused them to forget the true worship of God and to choose their own worship that had no basis or reason behind it other than desires and false beliefs. God, having knowledge of everything, knew this would happen and sent Messengers to remind people about the Message, and bring people back to the true religion. And this is what has been happening throughout time: people deviate and create their own methods of worship without any basis, whereas the correct worship of God has been enforced through Messengers from Him, supported by miracles and scriptures, containing manifest authority to adhere to a religion of truth.

The whole reason of our being here is as God explains in His final, preserved revelation to mankind:

51:56 I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.

This life is thus a test for those who wish to seek the truth; to find that truth and adhere to it, and they shall then be rewarded or punished accordingly when this world comes to an end at an appointed time. This is why adherence to the correct way of worship is vital in this life, as it will be too late to realise it in the hereafter; in the same way as seeing the answers to an already failed exam cannot earn a student a pass mark.

Peace.
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The Architect
03-11-2006, 01:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings The Architect,


I agree with this, though I don't see how it invalidates the need to worship God in the manner that He ordained.

I find it strange for a Christian to be saying this, since I doubt much of this is endorsed by Christianity. If God did not create a religion, and worship is man's own choice, then why do you say that God "knows which religion is the correct one"? Moreover, what is our purpose here on earth? Why would God create us and then leave us in darkness, not knowing right from wrong... and then inform us of the truth after we have served our time on earth? None of this makes any logical sense, especially when we know that God is Loving and Just.

Now let's look at the other perspective: that there has always been a religion, consisting of a very simple message. This message is to worship the one and only God who created everything, without any partners. At the beginning, this is what people were upon, and everything was fine until satan misguided them and caused them to forget the true worship of God and to choose their own worship that had no basis or reason behind it other than desires and false beliefs. God, having knowledge of everything, knew this would happen and sent Messengers to remind people about the Message, and bring people back to the true religion. And this is what has been happening throughout time: people deviate and create their own methods of worship without any basis, whereas the correct worship of God has been enforced through Messengers from Him, supported by miracles and scriptures, containing manifest authority to adhere to a religion of truth.

The whole reason of our being here is as God explains in His final, preserved revelation to mankind:

51:56 I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.

This life is thus a test for those who wish to seek the truth; to find that truth and adhere to it, and they shall then be rewarded or punished accordingly when this world comes to an end at an appointed time. This is why adherence to the correct way of worship is vital in this life, as it will be too late to realise it in the hereafter; in the same way as seeing the answers to an already failed exam cannot earn a student a pass mark.

Peace.
The reason I say religion is man's creation is because of the varying number of interpretations of His message that are out there. You believe that the prophet Muhammad had it right. I believe that Muhammad was a liar and that Jesus has it right and is, in a sense, God, based upon the concept of the Trinity. But you see, all these prophets who were inspired by God to spread His Word, they all believed in their own beliefs to be the true Word. There are very slight differences in beliefs, like Islam's belief of the sin "shirk" for example. God's Word never changes. But Christianity is different. Jesus is God incarnate. He came down to not destroy the old laws, but to fulfill them, to make them easier to understand, to make His Word clearer. So basically, Christianity is correct. Jesus, being not only God but also a man, started a religion. It was the "man part" of Jesus, the "prophet part" (yes I'm making these terms up. so what? ;D) that made Christianity.
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Muslim Knight
03-11-2006, 02:01 AM
You still haven't responded how the pious men and Messengers of God will be saved from hell when they have been denied the pleasure of meeting Jesus (who was yet to be born) and to be baptized in his name because, according to your Trinity, he is supposed to die to account for all the sins of mankind (who accepted him as saviour). Now there is no account of these prophets, beloved pious men loved by God (for example, Job and Moses) having accepted Jesus as their saviour, because if they had it would have been recorded down in the Bible.

Now, do you suppose, as a follower of Trinity, that these pious men will end up in hell? Because like us Muslims, they have not accepted Jesus as their saviour.
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The Architect
03-11-2006, 04:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslim knight
You still haven't responded how the pious men and Messengers of God will be saved from hell when they have been denied the pleasure of meeting Jesus (who was yet to be born) and to be baptized in his name because, according to your Trinity, he is supposed to die to account for all the sins of mankind (who accepted him as saviour). Now there is no account of these prophets, beloved pious men loved by God (for example, Job and Moses) having accepted Jesus as their saviour, because if they had it would have been recorded down in the Bible.

Now, do you suppose, as a follower of Trinity, that these pious men will end up in hell? Because like us Muslims, they have not accepted Jesus as their saviour.
Sorry. I didn't mean to avoid your question if that's what it seemed like. I went out with some friends and had some Pre-Calculus homework to do for school, but anyway...

I don't know if they accepted Him "per say", but they believed in Him, and they knew a Messiah was coming. I would have to say no they did not go to hell because even though Jesus was not physically born yet, He was still there in spirit. That Elohim thing that I mentioned earlier, the "im" implies plurality, so therefore, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were there spirit.
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Muslim Knight
03-11-2006, 07:22 AM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by The Architect
I don't know if they accepted Him "per say", but they believed in Him, and they knew a Messiah was coming. I would have to say no they did not go to hell because even though Jesus was not physically born yet, He was still there in spirit. That Elohim thing that I mentioned earlier, the "im" implies plurality, so therefore, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were there spirit.
Now, it states that in the Doctrine of Trinity that Jesus had to die as a man for the sins of mankind (who accepted him as the savior) to be borne by him alone, that those who accepted him after he has died for their sins, will be free of sin.

I mentioned earlier, those Messengers and pious men, they didn't have the pleasure of meeting him. Though they might know something about the coming of the Messiah, through knowledge that God might reveal to them, Jesus, as you say, was (back then) in spirit form and not yet born unto this world. Now, your doctrine says that he has to die for the sins of mankind to be borne by him. How can a man die on the cross if he is not yet born? Do we crucify a spirit then? How?

We Muslims have no trouble because we don't dabble in the idea of Trinity. We believe that the salvation depends solely on the Mercy of God and through His Messengers (particularly Muhammad salallahu 'alayhi wassalam) we learn that God's Mercy can be obtained through sincere worship of God (Him alone!), doing of good deeds , restraining desire and lust and avoiding evil deeds. No one has to die for the sins of others and much kindness unto God's creatures will earn the Light of His countenance. The same went for the previous Messengers (before Jesus) and their respective followers. That is why the Bible tells of us accounts of the story of their righteousness and their God-fearing characters but neglects to mention even a bit about the men of old accepting Jesus as savior nor did it mention anything about the Trinity.

This chain has been established from our father Adam to the Seal of of the Prophet Muhammad salallahu 'alayhi wassalam. The mighty Messenger of God, Jesus perpetuated this chain until it was broken by Paul, who introduced the Trinity, centuries after the Ascension. This Trinity, is an anomaly which deviates from Monotheism because as you can see, we are having trouble figuring out if pious people of old, without Jesus as their Savior, will go to Heaven or Hell. This chain I'm talking about, was restored with the coming of Muhammad, who instituted Sharia derived from divine revelation (Al-Quran) with rules and regulations pretty much the same with that of the Torah. We Muslims believe Muhammad came to complete the chain, the Law, rather than bring a whole new religion. This is why we come to believe that Paul is the culprit who corrupted the religion of God.

God is Loving, Just and Merciful. He didn't need to sacrifice anyone to remove the sins of other. For our salvation we need to repent to Him. This is why the need for repentance is also a theme available in the Bible. This also the reason Al-Quran perpetuates this theme. Otherwise why does the Bible bother mentioning about repentance when someone else is going to die for your sins and you go scott-free afterwards? It is the mad idea of Paul who twisted the teachings of Jesus and brought this crazy idea of God sacrificing His own Son only because He loved this world and mankind so much.

:w:
Reply

Nicola
03-11-2006, 08:57 AM
God is Loving, Just and Merciful. He didn't need to sacrifice anyone to remove the sins of other. For our salvation we need to repent to Him. This is why the need for repentance is also a theme available in the Bible. This also the reason Al-Quran perpetuates this theme. Otherwise why does the Bible bother mentioning about repentance when someone else is going to die for your sins and you go scott-free afterwards? It is the mad idea of Paul who twisted the teachings of Jesus and brought this crazy idea of God sacrificing His own Son only because He loved this world and mankind so much.
yes God is all those things and above all else...God is Holy. We all agree God detests sin....It's clearly shown in the Old testement....that God would turn his face away from from a sinful person, sinful nation etc....he simple refuses to acknowlege prayer, nations problems etc...
God will only listen if we repent
The difference with the God of the Bible and God of the Koran...


He didn't need to sacrifice anyone to remove the sins of other. For our salvation we need to repent to Him.
When we turn back to the Old Testament of the Bible, we see that after sin entered into the world, God required the blood sacrifice of animals for the atonement of sins.

Leviticus 17:11, For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Leviticus 4:3-5 If the priest that is anointed do sin...then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering....he shall... lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD. And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation...




This is why the need for repentance is also a theme available in the Bible.
Yes I agree we are told to repent but that is not enough God requires blood and if you notice all through the Bible that blood must be of a pure animal..with no blemish etc..else God would not except it.

Remember the passover blood in Egypt...God required blood again...that blood save all the first-born in thoses houses the blood was on.

Another scarifice and another sprinking with blood

Exodus 24:8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

Jeremiah around 600 years before Jesus was born...God tells us he has a better way coming for us...so that our sins will no longer be remembed


I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more." Sins are no longer "kept on file", record is blotted out, destroyed. God cannot "forget" like in human error, but He chooses to "not remember."


Isaiah 43:25
25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.




Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
When we read about the Jews in egypt..



This also the reason Al-Quran perpetuates this theme. Otherwise why does the Bible bother mentioning about repentance when someone else is going to die for your sins and you go scott-free afterwards?


God requires both...he needs us to firstly be truly sorry for our sins..words are simple to say..it's meaning them that is imorptant to...once we are sorry...God then requires a blood sacrifice like in the old testement..but now not with animal blood...but with Jesus' blood..
The blood of Jesus is so very important...The blood of animals had to be shed over and over but the blood of Jesus was shed only one time.

Please don't think its like 'Oh I'll except Jesus' and now I'm scott free of everything it isn't that simple....
God knows...if we mean it or not, if we do a character changes...totally over time our old self really does fade away..you become a new person..
Jesus tells us, it is no good telling him on Judgement day...we have done this and that for him etc..
Because he will know what was in our hearts and if that is not right..we don't spend eternity with him and God.



It is the mad idea of Paul who twisted the teachings of Jesus and brought this crazy idea of God sacrificing His own Son only because He loved this world and mankind so much.
Since the old testement we understand that God is preparing a new covernant with us..and Jesus tells us at the last supper...that he is that new blood.

hope this helps you understand the meaning of the blood alittle..look to the old testement for guidance....to see the importance of blood to God.
Reply

Muslim Knight
03-11-2006, 09:57 AM
Yet again, you fail to answer the problem that Trinity imposes on the Messengers of God and their pious followers from earlier generations that passed before Jesus' alleged crucifixion, during his ministry and moreover, before he was born. Again I ask, what is the Trinity solution to pious people, Messengers of God who worship only God (and none other) but have never accepted Jesus as their Savior (due to the fact that he was still in the spirit form, them probably having no knowledge of him as this is what the Bible says, having no record of previous Messengers mentioning about the Trinity and the fact that Jesus needed to die in order for him to bear the sins of those who accepted him as Savior.)

We read about David conversing with the Lord, Job conversing with the Lord and Moses conversing with the Lord. But never, not once did the Lord mentioning to them about having to accept His "Son", who in the future is about to be sacrificed, as their Savior.

So what will happen to these pious people who holds intimate conversation with God? They have not accepted Jesus as their Savior, because if they have done so, the Bible would have recorded their testimony on this. According to the Doctrine of Trinity, they, along with us Muslims will surely go to Hell.
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E'jaazi
03-11-2006, 10:27 AM
7 can only quote a verse and then say the Trinity is implied. That is not definitive. In the Qu'ran, it states that there is no Trinity - in a very definitive way. I can also produce verses from the Bible that prove there is no Trinity. But here is the real problem for the Christians. When you have translated scriptures, you have you lost and changed meanings. I have asked you before to show us the original writings, so that we know for sure what it says and we can better understand the meaning. The Qu'ran is the only book that contains the original language. I can also show where in the Bible, since that's what Christians go by, that say Jesus was only a man and that he only came for certain people.
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Nicola
03-11-2006, 10:53 AM
So what will happen to these pious people who holds intimate conversation with God? They have not accepted Jesus as their Savior, because if they have done so, the Bible would have recorded their testimony on this. According to the Doctrine of Trinity, they, along with us Muslims will surely go to Hell.
Even though Jesus tells he was with God since the beginning ..God choose not to let Jesus become known yet...
you can't be judged on a law that you never lived under. These people lived under the law of God at that time so will judged according to that law..

People who have lived since God gave us the new New Covenant to live of life by, we shall be judged according to what Jesus teaches us, if they have heard about it.. the 10 commandents still apply today but..like Jesus tells us the two main laws are firstly...To put God above all else...and secondly love our neighbour as ourselves..the other 9 commandents of the old testement..really fall into this second one..all the people who have died without ever hearing the gospel of having a chance to hear the gospel of Jesus will not be judged by that law..God is always Just.
We know Jesus wont return until the gospel has been given to all nations on earth.
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Nicola
03-11-2006, 10:56 AM
I can also show where in the Bible, since that's what Christians go by, that say Jesus was only a man and that he only came for certain people.
I can show you in the Bible, where they say Jesus was working for the Satan..and not God. Does this make it true then?
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E'jaazi
03-11-2006, 11:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
I can show you in the Bible, where they say Jesus was working for the Satan..and not God. Does this make it true then?
If you had a copy of the original writings, we could both understand the meaning better.
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Nicola
03-11-2006, 11:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by blackjubba
If you had a copy of the original writings, we could both understand the meaning better.
well I wish i had the original scribes also..lol

unforunatly I can't read hebrew or greek...so we have to rely on man translations of them.
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E'jaazi
03-11-2006, 11:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
well I wish i had the original scribes also..lol

unforunatly I can't read hebrew or greek...so we have to rely on man translations of them.
I invite you to read the Qu'ran. At least you know that the translation is seriously close to the arabic. Also, have you thought about learning hebrew? If you did, and then read the Torah, I think you would feel alot different about what you believe and what Islam teaches.
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Muslim Knight
03-11-2006, 11:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
Even though Jesus tells he was with God since the beginning ..God choose not to let Jesus become known yet...
Along with the rest of us (who have been created in spirit form but not yet physical form) who have yet to be spilled upon this earth. Doesn't make Jesus God or something divine. He is the Messenger of God.

format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
you can't be judged on a law that you never lived under. These people lived under the law of God at that time so will judged according to that law..
I wasn't talking about the law(s) of God. I was referring to the Trinity and how your salvation depended upon Jesus dying upon the cross so that he can bear all your sins and make you free. In this context I am asking who was bearing the sins of those who lived before Jesus was allegedly crucified and moreover, before he was born. Who bore the sins of David? Who bore the sins of Job? Who bore the sins of Moses? Before Jesus came into physical existence and started dying for Christians' sins? Don't talk about law. Talk about salvation!

If you say they (David, Job, Moses) repented without having anyone dying for them and that God forgave them before they died, hence making them beloved of God and recipients of Kingdom of Heaven, does it not occur to you that God can even provide forgiveness for us now without requiring any blood sacrifice only repentance and turning worship only to Him alone?

format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
People who have lived since God gave us the new New Covenant to live of life by, we shall be judged according to what Jesus teaches us, if they have heard about it.. the 10 commandents still apply today but..like Jesus tells us the two main laws are firstly...To put God above all else...and secondly love our neighbour as ourselves..the other 9 commandents of the old testement..really fall into this second one..all the people who have died without ever hearing the gospel of having a chance to hear the gospel of Jesus will not be judged by that law..God is always Just.
We know Jesus wont return until the gospel has been given to all nations on earth.
But you were not following what Jesus taught you. You followed Paul's teaching instead. He came around hundreds of years after the Ascension and abrogated what Jesus came to fulfill since Jesus explicitly stated that he came not to destroy (the law). You are saying that you love Jesus yet you follow one who only claim to be his apostle but goes on against his teachings. You eat pigs and drink wine when these have been explicitly forbidden in the OT.
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أحمد
03-11-2006, 11:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
well I wish i had the original scribes also..lol

unforunatly I can't read hebrew or greek...so we have to rely on man translations of them.
:sl:

:) I can translate the Hebrew for you, I don't really know any Greek, but we might find someone on this forum who does Insha-Allah . . . :happy:

:w:
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Nicola
03-11-2006, 11:37 AM
Me learn Hebrew...lol I need to master my own language first... :)
seriously I'd love to..
I have began looking at the Koran...every now and again..and that is why of the reasons I joined this forum to learn information from Muslims..etc..
I do have Muslim girlfriends...and friends with their families but they won't really discuss Islam with me..even when I bring it up by asking questions..they come to my church with me sometimes though.

I would never become a Muslim though I want to understand and learn about Islam..our differences etc...Some teachings I do not agree with in Islam so could never accept them in my heart.


then read the Torah, I think you would feel alot different about what you believe and what Islam teaches.
what makes you think that?
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Nicola
03-11-2006, 11:41 AM
Who bore the sins of David? Who bore the sins of Job? Who bore the sins of Moses? Before Jesus came into physical existence and started dying for Christians' sins? Don't talk about law. Talk about salvation!
I think you must have missed my earlier post because you have referred to it...and in that one I said how God as always used blood for the atonement of sin...always... take a look back at my earlier post please...save me putting it here again. Then we can discuss that more.
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Nicola
03-11-2006, 11:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:

:) I can translate the Hebrew for you, I don't really know any Greek, but we might find someone on this forum who does Insha-Allah . . . :happy:

:w:
thanks alot for that...though I would even know how to begin...lol

I will look for a Hebrew site then?

when ever I'm reading my Bible Gods' Holy Spirit always leads me, he is the one who makes it possible for me to understand what I am reading what it is meaning etc. He opens my eyes..He gives me the Knowledge..it isn't my own.
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E'jaazi
03-11-2006, 11:45 AM
what makes you think that?

Because Jews who can read Hebrew have talked about the differences in the meaning of the words because of the translations. When you know the original language and you understand the meaning better, it makes things alot clearer. For instance, when I take arabic classes, we are shown how the meaning of a word changes if you pronounce it wrong. The Arabic in the Qu'ran was sent down by Allah and was not the common arabic spoken amongst the people. That is one of the proofs for the Qu'rans authenticity. So when I say I take arabic, it's not the same as what the people speak. You can use it ti talk to other people, because you start to pick up on different aspects of arabic, but it mostly for reading and reciting the Qu'ran.
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Nicola
03-11-2006, 12:39 PM
But you were not following what Jesus taught you. You followed Paul's teaching instead
.

No I am following what Jesus taught really. Pauls teachings are really the finer details of living a good moral life..no sex without marriage etc..Jesus never mentions that


He came around hundreds of years after the Ascension and abrogated what Jesus came to fulfill since Jesus explicitly stated that he came not to destroy (the law).

Paul came around 60-70 years after Jesus' death. I know Jesus came to fulfil the law. Jesus came to show us a new way of life though that is very important ..the law is important but what is more important is loving each other, the right attitude..we must always put people before ourselves..

The pharies kept the law...but they where soooo cold hearted...they where truly hateful people..though from the outside they looked very good people because the kept the law of God..
Jesus tells us to pray in secret to God...to give to the poor in secret..so God will reward us in secret..If we do all this openly so man can see us...we are wanted mans approvel how we give money to the poor etc...our reward (praise) will come from man...not God!...
Jesus is telling us Not to show off infront of people. We only need to earn the respect and acceptance of God not man.

yes the Pharies gave money to the poor and everyone knew how much they gave..because they made sure they let everyone know...they prayed in the open..so everyone could here their prayer to God, how well they kept Gods Law...but what of their hearts?they where not right with God.
Jesus wants us to be humble. So although the law is important a standard of what God wants us to live by...loving no another, having a giving heart is what he wants also.

You are saying that you love Jesus yet you follow one who only claim to be his apostle but goes on against his teachings.
Please tell me what teachings, I am doing wrong against Jesus and God?.

You eat pigs and drink wine when these have been explicitly forbidden in the OT.
I don't drink....Jesus even turned water into wine... I don't do drugs (I detest both thing to be honest)..I eat pork rarely bacon only.

Jesus tells us it's what comes out of our mouths what matters, not what goes in.
Mark 7:14 (NIV) Nothing outside a man can make him ‘unclean’ by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him ‘unclean.’"
Mark 7:15 (NIV) After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. Mark 7:17 (NIV) "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? Mark 7:18 (NIV) For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") Mark 7:19 (NIV)
Jesus' main concern is our heart..
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i_m_tipu
03-11-2006, 12:41 PM
here we go again

i hope they will stay longer than others

by the time we can learn many InasAllaah.....

pls not undermind anything & feel free to express with logics.....

InasAllaah....:)
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Eric H
03-11-2006, 02:48 PM
Greetings and peace muslim knight,

In this context I am asking who was bearing the sins of those who lived before Jesus was allegedly crucified
We cannot pretend to know the mind of God, but hopefully God has to be morally greater than all of us put together.

If God was planning to forgive sins would he have planned this before the creation of the universe began, or would he only think of this after Moses and Abraham had lived and died?

If the forgiveness of sins rested on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus then would it make more sense for God to have made these plans before the creation of the universe began?

In the spirit of seeking interfaith peace

Eric
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songinwind
03-11-2006, 03:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
Me learn Hebrew...lol I need to master my own language first... :)
seriously I'd love to..
I have began looking at the Koran...every now and again..and that is why of the reasons I joined this forum to learn information from Muslims..etc..
I do have Muslim girlfriends...and friends with their families but they won't really discuss Islam with me..even when I bring it up by asking questions..they come to my church with me sometimes though.

I would never become a Muslim though I want to understand and learn about Islam..our differences etc...Some teachings I do not agree with in Islam so could never accept them in my heart.







what makes you think that?




(I would never become a Muslim).......Allah picks and choses who HE pleases, so never say "never" :) ...inshaAllah..peace to you.
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Muslim Knight
03-12-2006, 01:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace muslim knight,
Greetings and peace, Eric H.


format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
We cannot pretend to know the mind of God, but hopefully God has to be morally greater than all of us put together.
He is. His attributes are mentioned in the Quran. We Muslims seek refuge in God's divine guidance and goodness.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
If God was planning to forgive sins would he have planned this before the creation of the universe began, or would he only think of this after Moses and Abraham had lived and died?
God is the Best of Planners. He would have thought of it all before creation. To carry out a plan and to modify it midway is very human. God is beyond that. Al-Quran already mentioned that Adam was forgiven for his sins and that he was sent down to earth as a test for him and his descendants. Our time here is limited and that we will all return to Him. God teaches us in the Quran that each of us is carries not the burden of sin of others but is accountable to our own deeds (or misdeeds).

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
If the forgiveness of sins rested on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus then would it make more sense for God to have made these plans before the creation of the universe began?
He would have placed the crufixion in the beginning so that the Messengers and pious men would have affirmed Jesus right away. This would be then be recorded in the Bible. God would not have to suddenly change the method of how people would obtain His Mercy and forgiveness. God does not act on impulse like we mortals do.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
In the spirit of seeking interfaith peace
Peace be upon you.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-12-2006, 02:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PrIM3
its quite funny how the Trinity works.. its funny how God works how the humor between Jesus and His Father.
The trinity was neither taught or explained in the bible. The word doesn't even get mentioned once. It was invented by the Church, and is not part of Nabi Easa's (as) teachings. There's nothing funny about what the brother posted. It just goes to show that Jesus did NOT preach he was God, au'udhubillah. Rather he will testify on the day of Judgement that he did none of this, and he has nothing to do with the blasphemy that people ascribe to him.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-12-2006, 02:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace muslim knight,



We cannot pretend to know the mind of God, but hopefully God has to be morally greater than all of us put together.

If God was planning to forgive sins would he have planned this before the creation of the universe began, or would he only think of this after Moses and Abraham had lived and died?

If the forgiveness of sins rested on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus then would it make more sense for God to have made these plans before the creation of the universe began?

In the spirit of seeking interfaith peace

Eric
Why does God The All-Merciful need a blood sacrifice to forgive the sins of humanity, a blood sacrifice who was completely innocent. And how has this blood sacrifice benefitted anyone? The world is just as evil if not more. Just take a look around the world around you.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-12-2006, 03:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by The Architect
The Bible is God's Word. It has not been lost through the ages; it has just been translated differently for better understanding. There may be many different translations, but they all contain the same message.
That doesn't make sense. The bible was lost through the ages, yet it still contains the same message? Even changing one word in a sentance can completely change the meaning.
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renak
03-12-2006, 04:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
That doesn't make sense. The bible was lost through the ages, yet it still contains the same message? Even changing one word in a sentance can completely change the meaning.

This is what is puzzling me about the Quran as well. Since I can only read the English translation, the meaning must be completely different than the Arabic meaning. So what's the point in an English speaker embracing Islam?
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Muslim Knight
03-12-2006, 05:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by renak
This is what is puzzling me about the Quran as well. Since I can only read the English translation, the meaning must be completely different than the Arabic meaning. So what's the point in an English speaker embracing Islam?
The point in an English speaker embracing Islam lies in the fact that Islam is a universal religion and that Prophet Muhammad salallahu 'alayhi wassalam was sent as 'Mercy to all the world'.

Read through the English translation. If you think the meaning must be completely different than the Arabic meaning, you can always learn Arabic.

Of all the Muslims of the world, 90% are non-Arabs as a matter of fact.
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Eric H
03-12-2006, 07:29 AM
Greetings and peace Mu'MiNaH;

Why does God The All-Merciful need a blood sacrifice to forgive the sins of humanity,
i am talking personally here but I don’t think that Jesus’ life and death was for the benefit of God it was more for my benefit, I have a greater belief that my sins can be forgiven because Christ was prepared to do something.

In a way it might be like me saying to you. I will give you a million dollars next year.
Your reply would be ‘Yeah right you expect me to believe that.

But if you knew that I had already given your friend a million, you might just believe me.

The talk is easy, if God said your sins are forgiven, there is life after death and he didn’t do anything to show me then I probably would not believe.

Each of us needs some kind of proof from God that seems believable, and the life of Jesus is my inspiration, in the same kind of way that the life of the Prophet pbuh. inspires you.
a blood sacrifice who was completely innocent. And how has this blood sacrifice benefitted anyone? The world is just as evil if not more. Just take a look around the world around you.
It seems in man’s nature that we commit evil; only God can put a stop to evil.

In the spirit of searching together

Eric
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Eric H
03-12-2006, 07:33 AM
Greetings and peace muslim knight,
He would have placed the crufixion in the beginning so that the Messengers and pious men would have affirmed Jesus right away. This would be then be recorded in the Bible.
God works in mysterious ways, between Adam and Mosses there was no real law, and you could even say that the Prophet pbuh. should have been placed at the beginning for the same kind of reasons.

God would not have to suddenly change the method of how people would obtain His Mercy and forgiveness. God does not act on impulse like we mortals do.
As you have said God’s plan would be set and would not change, it seems that mankind had to be given his message in various stages because it might have been too much for us to take in one go.

In the spirit of searching for faith,

Eric
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Muhammad
03-12-2006, 11:00 AM
Greetings The Architect,

format_quote Originally Posted by The Architect
The reason I say religion is man's creation is because of the varying number of interpretations of His message that are out there.
If all religions were simply various interpretations of one message, then we should not expect them to be contradictory to each other: one says there is only one God, while others say this God has a son/daughter, others say there are many Gods and others say there is no God. Clearly, only one of these descriptions can be right, since God would not like His servants to be saying things about Him that are incorrect and offensive and attributing His power to others.

You believe that the prophet Muhammad had it right. I believe that Muhammad was a liar and that Jesus has it right and is, in a sense, God, based upon the concept of the Trinity.
I actually believe that both Muhammad and Jesus, peace be upon them, "had it right", and it makes sense that if the two were sent by God, then they should have the same essential message. Both of them taught that One God should be worshipped, though in the case of Jesus, people deviated from his teachings and created their own religion. By following the way of Muhammad (peace be upon him), I am following the main message brought by all the previous Prophets aswell.

But you see, all these prophets who were inspired by God to spread His Word, they all believed in their own beliefs to be the true Word.
All the Prophets were sent by God to convey His message, not their own, or else we would be following a man-made law and not a divine one. They did of course believe themselves to be on the true path, and this was the same path for all of them: to worship one God only.

There are very slight differences in beliefs, like Islam's belief of the sin "shirk" for example. God's Word never changes. But Christianity is different. Jesus is God incarnate. He came down to not destroy the old laws, but to fulfill them, to make them easier to understand, to make His Word clearer.
In Islam, each of the Prophets had laws that were specific to their own peoples, and the law that is valid today is the law of the Prophet who was sent to us: all of mankind, Muhammad (peace be upon him). So while they all conveyed the same core message of monotheism, they had different laws to live by.

According to the Qur'an, Jesus' message is mentioned as follows:

3:50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
3:51 "'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

So he didn't come to make God's Word "clearer", as we believe that God is not incapable of conveying His message clearly, but to confirm what had already come before him of God's Word, and make slight changes to other aspects of the previous law.

So basically, Christianity is correct. Jesus, being not only God but also a man, started a religion. It was the "man part" of Jesus, the "prophet part" (yes I'm making these terms up. so what? ;D) that made Christianity.
So you believe that Jesus made his own religion, which is why you say that religion is a "man's creation"? In Islam, it is unthinkable to associate God with His own creation: He has absolute control over everything, so to say that He became a part of what He created, while He is free from imperfection and His creation is not, is degrading His Majesty and Greatness and He is in fact far above such lowly descriptions. There is no need for God to appear on earth in the form of anyone, since He sends Prophets to convey His message.

Furthermore, much of the Bible cannot be considered to be Jesus' own words, let alone God's, so how do you know what his true teachings were?

Peace.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-12-2006, 01:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by renak
This is what is puzzling me about the Quran as well. Since I can only read the English translation, the meaning must be completely different than the Arabic meaning. So what's the point in an English speaker embracing Islam?
The Qur'an can only be in Arabic. The english translation of the meaning is only there for temporary use. It is advised that one should learn arabic as soon as possible. Although the english translation of the meaning still moves me to tears, i know it would be a million times more powerful in arabic. I'm currently learning arabic myself.
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Eric H
03-12-2006, 01:39 PM
Greetings and peace Architect;

I believe that Muhammad was a liar
I did not notice this comment you made earlier and think it is sad that you should need to make such a comment which some people could take as inflammatory.

In another thread were Muslims were saying similar things about Christianity Muhammad graciously edited them out.

We are guests on this forum and as such I feel there is the need to honour our hosts beliefs and faith.

In the spirit of growing together in faith

Eric
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Cheb
03-12-2006, 02:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace Mu'MiNaH;



i am talking personally here but I don’t think that Jesus’ life and death was for the benefit of God it was more for my benefit, I have a greater belief that my sins can be forgiven because Christ was prepared to do something.

In a way it might be like me saying to you. I will give you a million dollars next year.
Your reply would be ‘Yeah right you expect me to believe that.

But if you knew that I had already given your friend a million, you might just believe me.

The talk is easy, if God said your sins are forgiven, there is life after death and he didn’t do anything to show me then I probably would not believe.
Greetings Eric,

I do not think God needs to let his "son" die a horrible death in order to get a point across. Why make his beloved prophet suffer on earth if there is no need. Us Muslims believe that all prophets dies a peaceful death (Jesus not being dead yet of course) yet our faith is stronger than most (opinion). God showed us the path through his messenger and the Quran.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Each of us needs some kind of proof from God that seems believable, and the life of Jesus is my inspiration, in the same kind of way that the life of the Prophet pbuh. inspires you.


It seems in man’s nature that we commit evil; only God can put a stop to evil.

In the spirit of searching together

Eric
True God can stop evil, but HE has given us the will and conciance to do it ourselves. Therefore it is our responsibility to stop evil because it will benefit no one but us.
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sevenxtrust
03-12-2006, 07:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
Why does God The All-Merciful need a blood sacrifice to forgive the sins of humanity, a blood sacrifice who was completely innocent. And how has this blood sacrifice benefitted anyone? The world is just as evil if not more. Just take a look around the world around you.
It only will benefit thoughs who accept this atoning sacrifice. Thats simply enough..
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sevenxtrust
03-12-2006, 07:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
Greetings Eric,

I do not think God needs to let his "son" die a horrible death in order to get a point across. Why make his beloved prophet suffer on earth if there is no need. Us Muslims believe that all prophets dies a peaceful death (Jesus not being dead yet of course) yet our faith is stronger than most (opinion). God showed us the path through his messenger and the Quran.


True God can stop evil, but HE has given us the will and conciance to do it ourselves. Therefore it is our responsibility to stop evil because it will benefit no one but us.
It took one man for sin to enter into the world (Adam) and one man to conquer sin and the penalty of hell(Jesus). If this does not make sense to you, you are not open to the TRUE GOD. May God have mercy on you for you know not what you do.. I am praying for you, FRIEND!
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abdul Majid
03-12-2006, 07:40 PM
another form of beating around the bush you could say !
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Muslim Knight
03-13-2006, 03:24 AM
In truth, Christians haven't been able to prove the salvation of people who went before Jesus, because the Bible does not record their affirmation of him being their Savior or acknowledging that he is going to die for their sins. Jesus was only sent to the Children of Israel during his time.

If Christians imply that he was sent to all mankind, then they must prove that he is mentioned as having been accepted as Savior by those who went before him. When the Bible speaks about David it speaks about David and the Lord. Same went for the other Prophets but it never mentions about them having accepted Jesus as their Savior, nor did it record anything about them knowing about Jesus or God sending His "only begotten Son" in the future to die for the sins of mankind. If Christians mention God needing blood sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind, then Muslims are closer to this because we have the Qurban.

This is the major defect of the Trinity because it does not fit anywhere in the worship of one God.
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 07:46 AM
In truth, Christians haven't been able to prove the salvation of people who went before Jesus
Salvation for the people in the Old Testement before Jesus.... came from Blood Scarifice if the animal was a pure unblemished animal..this was Gods way of salvation for his people...If you look thoughout the O.T. God always required blood for the sins of the people...
But this had to keep being repeated....where as now Christians don't need to...God gave us one final atonement for sin...in Jesus...

If Christians imply that he was sent to all mankind, then they must prove that he is mentioned as having been accepted as Savior by those who went before him
Like i've already said...the people of the OT gave blood. and where saved..


If Christians mention God needing blood sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind, then Muslims are closer to this because we have the Qurban.
would you explain what the Qurban is please for me...
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Cheb
03-13-2006, 08:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevenxtrust
It took one man for sin to enter into the world (Adam) and one man to conquer sin and the penalty of hell(Jesus). If this does not make sense to you, you are not open to the TRUE GOD. May God have mercy on you for you know not what you do.. I am praying for you, FRIEND!
Sorry but that does not make sense at all. I have looked into Christianity enough to know that it is a religion based on misinterpretation and contradiction. Christianity is not a practical religion that allows you to truly worship your TRUE GOD while at the same time provide solutions for common problems on earth. God sent us the Torah and Moses (pbuh), but we rejected it He then sent us the Bible and Jesus (pbuh), but we changed it. Finally he sent us the Quran and Muhammad (pbuh), and finally the true religion that has not been changed has risen. Islam guides and teaches us how to worship our God the right way. Our life should revolve around God and our actions should follow our prophet’s example. We are taught both how to survive and how to worship. You should look into Islam more and learn more about our religion if you are to really see the truth.
I will pray for you too, I pray that you will be guided in the right path and finally realize how God should be worshiped.
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E'jaazi
03-13-2006, 08:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
God sent us the Torah and Moses (pbuh), but we rejected it He then sent us the Bible and Jesus (pbuh), but we changed it. Finally he sent us the Quran and Muhammad (pbuh), and finally the true religion that has not been changed has risen.
As-Salaamu-Alaikum!

Actually, Allah sent down 3 revelations prior to the Qu'ran: The Torah, The Psalms, and the Injeel (Gospel). The Torah and Psalms have been corrupted. The Gospel that was sent down is NOT the Bible. The Injeel has been lost. The Bible that you see today is a book that was compile by the Nicene Council, who also decided which books would be taken out and which ones would stay in. It is said that over 60 books were excluded. It should also be noted that the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke & John were not written by any of the 12 Apostles. The reference for the books sent down can be found in the Qu'ran - Surha 21 Ayat 105.
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Cheb
03-13-2006, 09:15 AM
:sl:
Thanks brother. True I did leave out a book and probably shouldnt have called the Injeel the Bible. Just wanted to get a point across.
Peace.
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 09:31 AM
Christianity is not a practical religion that allows you to truly worship your TRUE GOD while at the same time provide solutions for common problems on earth.
Christians do not need the laws to be written down for them, to understand how God wants us to live. The Jews had that from God and it didn't work...Our heavenly Father places the laws in our hearts to overcome this world.
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E'jaazi
03-13-2006, 09:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
...Our heavenly Father places the laws in our hearts to overcome this world.
That is why Christianity today is becoming more tolerant of things that are evil and abhorant to God, such as same sex relationships, illegitimate children, gambling, women preachers and so forth! Again, not all Christians, but Christianity in general.
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Muslim Knight
03-13-2006, 09:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
But this had to keep being repeated....where as now Christians don't need to...God gave us one final atonement for sin...in Jesus...
Nowhere in the Bible did it mention, 'And the Lord saith, "I shall give ye one final atonement for sin... in Jesus..."

What you claim here was your own conjecture. You have no means to prove God ever meant the death of Jesus as your final atonement for sin.


Like i've already said...the people of the OT gave blood. and where saved..
If God required so much blood (or only blood) to atone for sins, then why bother telling pious people to worship Him at all? Why bother telling people to ask Him for forgiveness? Could the Crusades have happened because of this reason? Then I say Christianity is indeed, a cruel religion. Do you know that a fungus of Christianity, called Satanism in which ex-Christians worship Satan and placing him on equal with God, deals with so much blood sacrifice?

People who went before Jesus, they sacrificed animals as an act of obedience. God told them to sacrifice animals in His name. Performing is an act of obedience to God. Hence, it is worship to God to follow His command. Like what Abraham used to do, we Muslims follow his example in the Qurban, the sacrifice of animals in God's name as an act of worship to God. And His name is Allah.

would you explain what the Qurban is please for me...
You can learn better by researching on that subject. Other Muslim brothers & sisters can perhaps explain better than I do. Or look up the Quran and read more about what it says about Abraham (Nabi Ibrahim 'alayhi salaam).
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 09:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by blackjubba
That is why Christianity today is becoming more tolerant of things that are evil and abhorant to God, such as same sex relationships, illegitimate children, gambling, women preachers and so forth! Again, not all Christians, but Christianity in general.

I couldn't agree with you more..Jesus tells us many will be lead astray from the truth and Satan as certainly lead these people astray.

This is why we must always test the spirits to make sure they are from God and not Satan...Jesus makes it quite plain how to do this and it looks like these people have been fooled!
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E'jaazi
03-13-2006, 09:56 AM
Al-Qu'ran
Surah 39 Ayat 7


If you disbelieve, then verily, Allah is not in need of you; He likes not disbelief for His slaves. And if you are grateful (by being believers), He is pleased therewith for you. No bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you what you used to do. Verily, He is the All-Knower of that which is in (men's) breast.

Also, in the Bible, it clearly states in Revelations that - "....Each man will be judged according to his works." It is the same concept as Islam.You will not be judged or pre-judged based on your belief in a savior. You will, however, be judged on whether or not you listened to your messenger and obeyed what he told you. For Christians, that would be Jesus (Isa) who clearly told you, "Worship God, my Lord and your Lord!" If God is the Lord of Jesus, then why do you worship him? Think hard about this one!
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Maimunah
03-13-2006, 10:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by blackjubba
Al-Qu'ran
Surah 39 Ayat 7


If you disbelieve, then verily, Allah is not in need of you; He likes not disbelief for His slaves. And if you are grateful (by being believers), He is pleased therewith for you. No bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you what you used to do. Verily, He is the All-Knower of that which is in (men's) breast.

Also, in the Bible, it clearly states in Revelations that - "....Each man will be judged according to his works." It is the same concept as Islam.You will not be judged or pre-judged based on your belief in a savior. You will, however, be judged on whether or not you listened to your messenger and obeyed what he told you. For Christians, that would be Jesus (Isa) who clearly told you, "Worship God, my Lord and your Lord!" If God is the Lord of Jesus, then why do you worship him? Think hard about this one!
:) mashaallah
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 10:51 AM
What you claim here was your own conjecture. You have no means to prove God ever meant the death of Jesus as your final atonement for sin.
Not mine alone...millions and millions more people throughtout time also know this.

People who went before Jesus, they sacrificed animals as an act of obedience.
It was not an act of obendience...but was atonement for their sins...
God tells us in

Leviticus 17:11;

“For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life..
An exchange took place when the animal’s innocent life was transferred to the people, and the people’s impure lives were transferred to the animal. This is known as the “exchanged life” principle. This was necessary because of God’s justice and sense of righteousness.

This same principle is used with Jesus' blood.

Principles of law that God usues are so very different than the laws we have on earth...Man could never understand the workings of these laws.


Why bother telling people to ask Him for forgiveness?
Exactly...there is no point, without blood for God...with Jesus...He paid the price with his blood for who ever will except his offering to God and who do will be saved from Gods wrath on Judgement day.

It isn't man-kinds (Christians) idea but Gods alone that blood should pay the price of our sins in the OT and NT.

Do you understand about the Holy of Holies what it's reason was for etc?

Hebrews 13:11

For the bodies of those animals of which the blood is carried by the High Priest into the Holy place as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp.
Only the High Priest one person could go inside.....to be in the presence of God..God is so pure so Holy he cannot come into contact with humans unless they are sinless animal scarfices on the OT and now Jesus was a way in which we can have fellowship with God.

In Chrisitinty now...God no longer requires blood...the blood of Jesus covers us and makes us sinless in the presence of our Father..


You can learn better by researching on that subject. Other Muslim brothers & sisters can perhaps explain better than I do. Or look up the Quran and read more about what it says about Abraham (Nabi Ibrahim 'alayhi salaam).
thanks I will do that.. :)
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Cheb
03-13-2006, 11:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
Christians do not need the laws to be written down for them, to understand how God wants us to live. The Jews had that from God and it didn't work...Our heavenly Father places the laws in our hearts to overcome this world.
Could you elaborate on this please?
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 12:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
Could you elaborate on this please?
I will try.

God gave the Jews all kinds of different laws these where written down so they would abide by them...
Our (Chrisitians) two laws are these


Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Living by these two laws alone is all that is needed..along with the Holy Spirit indewlling in us...It is then impossible not to live the way God intented us to live....
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 05:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace Architect;


I did not notice this comment you made earlier and think it is sad that you should need to make such a comment which some people could take as inflammatory.

In another thread were Muslims were saying similar things about Christianity Muhammad graciously edited them out.

We are guests on this forum and as such I feel there is the need to honour our hosts beliefs and faith.

In the spirit of growing together in faith

Eric
I think that was incredibly courteous:sister:.
Thank you.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 05:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevenxtrust
It only will benefit thoughs who accept this atoning sacrifice. Thats simply enough..
No it isn't. Isn't it simpler to believe that God can forgive at will, and doesn't need to torture and sacrafice innocents to forgive humanity?
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Nawal89
03-13-2006, 05:17 PM
^right sis.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 05:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace Mu'MiNaH;

Greetings and Peace Eric:).


[QUOTE;208623]i am talking personally here but I don’t think that Jesus’ life and death was for the benefit of God it was more for my benefit, I have a greater belief that my sins can be forgiven because Christ was prepared to do something.

In a way it might be like me saying to you. I will give you a million dollars next year.
Your reply would be ‘Yeah right you expect me to believe that.

But if you knew that I had already given your friend a million, you might just believe me.

The talk is easy, if God said your sins are forgiven, there is life after death and he didn’t do anything to show me then I probably would not believe.
Actually I do believe so, and no sacrifice was needed for that. I read the Qur'an, read about Islam, and realised what a beautiful faith I had. I was just Muslim by name before. I cried for my sins and asked God to forgive me, I repented as sincerely as I was able to. Allah knows best if it was accepted, but I have been able to move on with my life as a real Muslim whilst remembering that Allah is Al Ghafour (The Oft-Forgiving), Ar-Rahman (Most Merciful). I don't need someone else to suffer, and I certainly wouldn't ask anyone to do it, and would be incredibly hurt and guilty if that's what needed to be done in order for me to be forgiven. I'm not saying that christians believe God benfitted from it, but i'm saying can't God forgive without Jesus (as) an innocent man having to suffer? I certainly believe He is capable of that. That is easy for Him.

[QUOTE;208623]Each of us needs some kind of proof from God that seems believable, and the life of Jesus is my inspiration, in the same kind of way that the life of the Prophet pbuh. inspires you.


It seems in man’s nature that we commit evil; only God can put a stop to evil.

In the spirit of searching together

Eric[/QUOTE]

Yes the life of both Prophet Jesus (as) and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) inspire me greatly. My proof from God and His miracle is the Qur'an, however. No Muslim would expect Allah to sacrifice our beloved Nabi (saw) in order to forgive my sins. That seems very cruel to me. You believe God is Merciful, but you ascribe something cruel to Him. Why? This actually makes me very sad.
Looking forward to your reply.

-Peace
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Eric H
03-13-2006, 05:33 PM
Greetings and peace Nicola;

God gave the Jews all kinds of different laws these where written down so they would abide by them...
Our (Chrisitians) two laws are these


Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Living by these two laws alone is all that is needed..along with the Holy Spirit indewlling in us...It is then impossible not to live the way God intented us to live
To me the two greatest commandments seem the most profound words ever written, they seem to have power beyond our understanding.

To me the single most profound word ever written in context is the word ‘hang’
It is trying to understand what all the law and the prophets are and how do they depend and hang on the greatest commandments.

Just maybe; they belonged to God before they were given to man and could they be written in the following way?

The Father loves all that he is and all that he does with all his heart, soul, mind and strength?

The Father loves Christ as he loves himself?
.
Christ loves the father as he loves himself?

God the Father loves each one of us as he loves himself?

To test the power of these words simply ask these questions.

If the Fathers love for himself is perfect and complete, how can he then love Christ MORE than he loves himself?

Could the Father love each one of us more than he loves himself?

Could the spirit be the power that comes from perfect love?

In the spirit of searching for the greatest

Eric
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Eric H
03-13-2006, 06:11 PM
Greetings and peace Mu'MiNaH~;
No Muslim would expect Allah to sacrifice our beloved Nabi (saw) in order to forgive my sins. That seems very cruel to me. You believe God is Merciful, but you ascribe something cruel to Him. Why? This actually makes me very sad.
Looking forward to your reply.
Jesus taught us to pray to our Father who art in heaven, and there are many passages in the Bible that refer to God having Father relations with mankind.

Maybe in our limited way we can look at the role of a human father and what he might be prepared to do for the children he loved. On occasions we hear about a father who died whilst saving his child from a burning building, on occasions we hear about a remarkable person who dies whilst saving a total stranger from some peril.

That child might grow up feeling guilty that their father died so they might live, but I would look on it in another way.

Maybe the child would look and see that he was saved at a great cost, and maybe because he had been given such a huge gift of life that he should also go out and help others and give something back to the memory of a loving father.

This is how I look on Jesus as my saviour, he has given me a great gift in life and there is the need for me to try and do something in return.

It is very difficult when you look at another persons faith, and you try and find out how they are inspired to do something.

In the spirit of searching for a greater understanding between faiths

Eric
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abdul Majid
03-13-2006, 06:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace Mu'MiNaH~;

1 Jesus taught us to pray to our Father who art in heaven, and there are many passages in the Bible that refer to God having Father relations with mankind.

2 Maybe in our limited way we can look at the role of a human father and what he might be prepared to do for the children he loved. On occasions we hear about a father who died whilst saving his child from a burning building, on occasions we hear about a remarkable person who dies whilst saving a total stranger from some peril.

3 That child might grow up feeling guilty that their father died so they might live, but I would look on it in another way.

4 Maybe the child would look and see that he was saved at a great cost, and maybe because he had been given such a huge gift of life that he should also go out and help others and give something back to the memory of a loving father.

5 This is how I look on Jesus as my saviour, he has given me a great gift in life and there is the need for me to try and do something in return.

6 It is very difficult when you look at another persons faith, and you try and find out how they are inspired to do something.

In the spirit of searching for a greater understanding between faiths

Eric
i numbered your quote to help me...

1- this is correct, i just wanted to say father doesnt mean he begot us...but rather a provider aand such, which you know already


2- yea we hear things like this, but it doesnt justify anything..

3-maybe

4-saved from what?? and going out and helping others is a must...and about gift of life, this great gift can leave you at any moment when you least expect it!!! so obviously it has a purpose..

5-yea do what he told you, to worship GOD alone!! but people now take a partner in worship with GOD and that is Jesus!!!hes not to be worshiped!!

6-its not difficult really,


peace eric
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 06:59 PM
Eric, my brother in Humanity, you haven't addressed my question as to why God needed Jesus to die in order to forgive mankind's sins. I am aware that you are grateful for what Jesus apparently did for you.
-Peace
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 07:50 PM
No it isn't. Isn't it simpler to believe that God can forgive at will, and doesn't need to torture and sacrafice innocents to forgive humanity?
Yes I expect it does seem more simple. But why did God always require a blood sacrifice?..Throughout the Old Testement it is Gods commandment that He requires blood for the sins of his people...we can see this clearly...for instance in


Leviticus Chapter 4


3 if the anointed priest shall sin so as to bring guilt on the people, then let him offer for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin-offering.

8 And all the fat of the bullock of the sin-offering he shall take off from it; the fat that covereth the inwards, and all the fat that is upon the inwards.

14 when the sin wherein they have sinned is known, then the assembly shall offer a young bullock for a sin-offering, and bring it before the tent of meeting.


There is to much evidence in the OT for the sacrifice of unblemished animals for the atonement of sin. To simple deny it..and we know God never changes.



http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0304.htm


God still requires blood..and that blood comes from Jesus Christ of saviour..so we Christians believe in the blood of Christ for atonement of our sins we commit against God..
Jesus' blood is so powerful.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 07:53 PM
that sounds so pagan to me... like the incas or something. Come on, forgiveness is easy for God.
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abdul Majid
03-13-2006, 07:53 PM
its funny how christians beleive in the old testiment(which is the torah)..

and not the QURAN, whichs is all evidences
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 07:54 PM
actually, they look to the new testament more. For example, the old testament says you can't eat pork, but christians still do this.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 07:55 PM
oh and the old testament encourages polygamy, and christians CAN'T do that:).
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abdul Majid
03-13-2006, 07:55 PM
but they still reference the old testiment!!
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 07:56 PM
yeah... kind of hypocritical if you ask me. (no offence)
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 08:13 PM
QUOTE=~Mu'MiNaH~;210274]that sounds so pagan to me... like the incas or something. Come on, forgiveness is easy for God.[/QUOTE]

God is so pure and Very Holy...he cannot look upon a sinful person...
Without the blood for the atonement of sin. Althought the Bible we understand just how Holy God is.


If you read and study the OT you will see God always require blood for our sins. After Adams fall. How about the Holy of Holyies?
They are Gods laws not mine and I would never call His laws as Pagan ideas.

It was the blood that saved the Jews first borns..in egypt remember? God instructed Moses to cover their own door ways with blood of an unblembish animal scarifice.. so God would not harm the first borns males of the Jews, so every first born male in those houses..where saved because of the blood God told them to use.
This is the Jewish Passover that the Jews even celebrate today. Passover
meaning God passed over their houses.

Exodus chapter 12: one lamb was slain for every household and the blood painted onto the lintels and doorposts. This was done in order that the angel of Death would not slay the first-born son of the Jewish households, but only those of Pharoah's people, whom God had warned He would judge. "When I see the blood, I will pass over you" the Lord told the children of Israel


Lev 4:14 when the sin wherein they have sinned is known, then the assembly shall offer a young bullock for a sin-offering, and bring it before the tent of meeting.
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 08:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
its funny how christians beleive in the old testiment(which is the torah)..

and not the QURAN, whichs is all evidences
It is because of Muslims believe Islam came from God, where as Jews and Christians do not believe the Quran comes from God..

Offence not intented..sorry
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 08:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
but they still reference the old testiment!!

don't you use the OT as reference at all?
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 08:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
QUOTE=~Mu'MiNaH~;210274]that sounds so pagan to me... like the incas or something. Come on, forgiveness is easy for God.
God is so pure and Very Holy...he cannot look upon a sinful person...
Without the blood for the atonement of sin. Althought the Bible we understand just how Holy God is.


If you read and study the OT you will see God always require blood for our sins. After Adams fall. How about the Holy of Holyies?
They are Gods laws not mine and I would never call His laws as Pagan ideas.

It was the blood that saved the Jews first borns..in egypt remember? God instructed Moses to cover their own door ways with blood of an unblembish animal scarifice.. so God would not harm the first borns males of the Jews, so every first born male in those houses..where saved because of the blood God told them to use.
This is the Jewish Passover that the Jews even celebrate today. Passover
meaning God passed over their houses.

Exodus chapter 12: one lamb was slain for every household and the blood painted onto the lintels and doorposts. This was done in order that the angel of Death would not slay the first-born son of the Jewish households, but only those of Pharoah's people, whom God had warned He would judge. "When I see the blood, I will pass over you" the Lord told the children of Israel


Lev 4:14 when the sin wherein they have sinned is known, then the assembly shall offer a young bullock for a sin-offering, and bring it before the tent of meeting.[/QUOTE]

Ok, so you believe in this All-Merciful, blood thirsty, and also contradicting God?
You said that the angel of death would pass over the houses (or the bible said), why then does it say that the Lord will pass over the houses then?
And don't you think God would know and inform the angel of death who the hebrews were, or is your version of God not All-Seeing like we believe Allah to be (by the way we're supposed to believe in the same God).
Also, us Muslims have a direct relationship with God. We can pray to Him directly without any intecesser no matter what the sin. God is capable of that. He answers al of our du'as and cries, just as He sustains us all at the same time.
And you are shocked when us Muslims say the bible has been changed?
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abdul Majid
03-13-2006, 08:22 PM
ok the difference is.....

we muslims beleive in the past two religions, we beleive in MOSES(p) and JESUS(p).....but my point is you reference the old testament, but aviod the quran completly????
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 08:31 PM
That's because they think the bible is still valid bro. We're here to show that that is wrong. The gospel and torah were God's once upon a time, but man intefered with it and now it is tainted. So God sent down the Qur'an as the last message, and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as the last messenger, and promised to protect the Qur'an as it was to be the last message.
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 08:42 PM
Ok, so you believe in this All-Merciful, blood thirsty, and also contradicting God?

It is only contradicting to Muslims, not to Jews or Christians..God to us is never contradicting..because we don't believe in the Quran..I expect if I did...it would seem very contradicting indeed.

You said that the angel of death would pass over the houses (or the bible said), why then does it say that the Lord will pass over the houses then?

Because God is in control of everything, including demons and Satan, God uses demons for his works in the world also.

And don't you think God would know and inform the angel of death who the hebrews were, or is your version of God not All-Seeing like we believe Allah to be (by the way we're supposed to believe in the same God).
It isn't my version of things but Gods. This is what all Jews and Christians believe because God told us so in the OT...
The simple answer is I believe blood save life...God worked out his own laws...I am not here to argue against God and how he chooses to save people their lives and souls.
We as humans will never be able to fully understand God they way he works etc, because we are not like him so it would be impossible to even try.
This is one of the reason why Jews and most Christians believe we don't follow the same God...because the laws of God in the bible and the God of the Koran as so total different..In the OT and NT God requires blood...when Jesus died on the cross...he said "It is finished" meaning the word Jesus was sent to do..was now completed, man had away of eternal savaltion.. then 600yrs later? not sure later sorry....Mohammed gets a different set of rules and laws...which are so completely different from ours from the God we now.
Acutaly it is really only Muslims who believe we follow the same God.

Also, us Muslims have a direct relationship with God. We can pray to Him directly without any intecesser no matter what the sin. God is capable of that. He answers al of our du'as and cries, just as He sustains us all at the same time.
And you are shocked when us Muslims say the bible has been changed
All I can say is God in the OT tells us, he turns away from sinful people and will not answer prayers, unless there is a blood scarifice for an atonement their sins.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 08:55 PM
Thing is, it isn't God. It's the word of Man. The bible has been changed. You are not required to have blind faith if you believe in the Qur'an, or that 'faith will overcome'. We are encouraged to question why we believe so that we can truly appreciate our faith and be sure we are real believers. 'because God says so' isn't a good enough reply. Prove to me that the bible is still the word of God and I will accept that reply.
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 08:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
That's because they think the bible is still valid bro. We're here to show that that is wrong. The gospel and torah were God's once upon a time, but man intefered with it and now it is tainted. So God sent down the Qur'an as the last message, and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as the last messenger, and promised to protect the Qur'an as it was to be the last message.

yes we do think the Bible is still valid...why? because we still have an awful alot of propheies that haven't been fulfilled yet, from Daniel to Malachi, Jesus' and many more..still need to be!..that is one reason.
Also we also still (well should) abide by the laws God gave us...God is never changing He is always the same.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 08:57 PM
By the way each messenger and prophet was given a set of laws for his people, as society changed, and was not ready for the final message. We believe al prophets carried the same message, but different laws.
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 09:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
Thing is, it isn't God. It's the word of Man. The bible has been changed. You are not required to have blind faith if you believe in the Qur'an, or that 'faith will overcome'. We are encouraged to question why we believe so that we can truly appreciate our faith and be sure we are real believers. 'because God says so' isn't a good enough reply. Prove to me that the bible is still the word of God and I will accept that reply.
I can understand exactly what you mean about blind faith etc, and that is something I would Never do!...and please believe me I am not here to argue with you, or put your beliefs down.. I believe what I believe because I recieved a vision from Jesus almost 2 years ago..since that time I have become a believer in Gods words in the bible and Jesus is my saviour, Even Jesus refers to the OT alot in the NT

Before I did not believe in a God, well, I didn't give God any thought in my life. I was far to busy! so you could say I was an agnostic, though a few weeks before the vision I had started questioning "was there a God" etc. I cannot prove my vision to you and I would not expect you to believe me. Since my vision and excepting Jesus as my saviour, I am now being lead by the Holy Spirit which God promises us..in the Bible..and he helps guide and teach me the way God wants me to be.
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
By the way each messenger and prophet was given a set of laws for his people, as society changed, and was not ready for the final message. We believe al prophets carried the same message, but different laws.

If you mean by God telling his people to repent for their sins etc at different times in history...then yes the message was always the same..but we have so many prophecies that still need to be fullfilled concerning the end times that still have not be fullfilled yet...and these are not to do with people repenting and turning away from sin etc..
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
I can understand exactly what you mean about blind faith etc, and that is something I would Never do!...and please believe me I am not here to argue with you, or put your beliefs down.. I believe what I believe because I recieved a vision from Jesus almost 2 years ago..since that time I have become a believer in Gods words in the bible and Jesus is my saviour, Even Jesus refers to the OT alot in the NT

Before I did not believe in a God, well, I didn't give God any thought in my life. I was far to busy! so you could say I was an agnostic, though a few weeks before the vision I had started questioning "was there a God" etc. I cannot prove my vision to you and I would not expect you to believe me. Since my vision and excepting Jesus as my saviour, I am now being lead by the Holy Spirit which God promises us..in the Bible..and he helps guide and teach me the way God wants me to be.
Visions:). These aren't proof either, sorry. I know plenty of Muslims who have had dreams of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). My own sister dreamt of him twice! But I would never submit this as evidence. What proof if this if no one else can see it?

Do you cover your head, i believe this is in the corinthians (i think), but i'm sure it's in the new testament.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 09:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
If you mean by God telling his people to repent for their sins etc at different times in history...then yes the message was always the same..but we have so many prophecies that still need to be fullfilled concerning the end times that still have not be fullfilled yet...and these are not to do with people repenting and turning away from sin etc..
But the bible has been changed. What do you say about that? Perhaps the prophecies are true, maybe some guy somewhere made it up. That isn't the point, the point is the bible has been changed and everyone has to admit this. There are so many different versions of the bible. Come on, it has been tampered with.
The same God (not Jesus or the holy spirit, just God) sent the final message.. etc, i said it all before.
What do you have to say about the bible being changed?
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 09:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
ok the difference is.....

we muslims beleive in the past two religions, we beleive in MOSES(p) and JESUS(p).....but my point is you reference the old testament, but aviod the quran completly????
If you believed in them you would follow them also..We do not recongnise the Quran because it contridicts the Bible on to many of our main beliefs...issues from the fall of Adam and Eve to how Sin is atoned according to God..for our Salvation, to the Death of Christ..and his second coming. Everything is so totally different from what God said in the bible. And these are the reason why you disagree with the Bible..
The two Holy book are so very different.
e.g Jesus tells us to pray to the Father, to open our hearts to him etc in secret, away from crowds etc..so we won't be like the hypocrites in the OT they wanted want everyone to know they are praying to God..so people would look up to them and see what good people they are!...that does not prove what is in your heart Jesus tells us and only God knows what is.

But He tells us if we pray in secret our Father he will reward us..where as the people who pray in the open for all to hear..they get their reward from man-kind only. Same with fasting we are to do it in secret do not tell man that you are fasting for the Father..
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 10:04 PM
so.... you think its impossible to do a deed in public and still hold onto sincerity? I manage to do it. I do most of my good deeds in private obviously, but i wouldn't stop doing a good deeds in public just coz someone was there. This may encourage the person present to do a good deeds aswell and it may remind them of God.
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 10:25 PM
Visions. These aren't proof either, sorry. I know plenty of Muslims who have had dreams of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). My own sister dreamt of him twice! But I would never submit this as evidence. What proof if this if no one else can see it?
I do not need you to believe me God alone knows what he sent me, that is all that matters to me...like I said you asked why I know and this is why I believe and that is my reason...
Mine wasn't a dream I was wide awake..

No one saw or heard what Mohammed did either...yet people believe Mohammeds messages contridicts what Jesus tells us and the rest of the Bible for that matter....that would fall into the same catorgry... it was his word alone, like me is my word alone..


The messages I recieved tied in exactly with the Bible..where Mohammads messages did not tie in with what Jesus tells us to watch out for. Jesus tells us if messages, prophices come to people and they do not follow his teachings they are not from God. That we must test the spirits..and tells us how to test them.

Do I cover my head no...some woman do that I know (in church only) some don't, this is not a doctrine of Christianity. Paul was speaking to the Corinthian woman. Besides I am not married.

1 Corinthians 11:3-16 addresses the issue of women and head coverings. This is admittedly a difficult passage to interpret and apply to today’s church. At that time, in the Corinthian culture, women wore head coverings to demonstrate submission to their husbands. No other book of the Bible mentions head coverings as a common practice. In Corinth, ff a woman were to remove her head covering, it would be equivalent to saying, “I refuse to submit to my husband.” Evidently, some women in Corinth were doing this very thing. As a result, Paul commands the women to wear head coverings to demonstrate their submission to their head, namely their husbands.

Could I ask you a question now, after knowing now that God required blood for sin in the OT what do you think? Do you believe that all those laws books etc...where also corrupted..and God never required these things...

If so for what reason would they have been corrupted..? Why would they put blood scarifices in...if God did not want that?

Or do you believe now infact that this is how the Jews atoned for their sin?


Or do you think we worship different Gods?

Because God in the Bible never changes.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 10:30 PM
we're going around in circles......
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abdul Majid
03-13-2006, 10:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
If you believed in them you would follow them also..We do not recongnise the Quran because it contridicts the Bible on to many of our main beliefs...issues from the fall of Adam and Eve to how Sin is atoned according to God..for our Salvation, to the Death of Christ..and his second coming. Everything is so totally different from what God said in the bible. And these are the reason why you disagree with the Bible..
The two Holy book are so very different.
e.g Jesus tells us to pray to the Father, to open our hearts to him etc in secret, away from crowds etc..so we won't be like the hypocrites in the OT they wanted want everyone to know they are praying to God..so people would look up to them and see what good people they are!...that does not prove what is in your heart Jesus tells us and only God knows what is.

But He tells us if we pray in secret our Father he will reward us..where as the people who pray in the open for all to hear..they get their reward from man-kind only. Same with fasting we are to do it in secret do not tell man that you are fasting for the Father..

i beleive that you lack alot of knowledge about ISLAM ! so you should investigate before anything ! for your knowledge for truth !

we do beleive in the first two religons hellooo, and we follow what GOD has said and not those extra man made verses!!

we beleive in christ and his second coming!!

you say the Quran contradicts the Bible, well which Bible?? there many , and you DO NOT HAVE THE ORIGINAL, ONLY WHAT MAN HAS SUBSITUTED!! SO HOW CAN YOU EVEN SAY THAT?? and by the way the Bible contradicts itsself!! The Quran clears all the man made cludder from it!!

format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
e.g Jesus tells us to pray to the Father, to open our hearts to him etc in secret, away from crowds etc..so we won't be like the hypocrites in the OT they wanted want everyone to know they are praying to God..so people would look up to them and see what good people they are!...that does not prove what is in your heart Jesus tells us and only God knows what is.
So here you say Jesus is basicly corrrecting the OT?? right !
ok thats good becuse people were mislead, just as it happened in the NT and people got mislead, then the Quran came to guide them again!!

in ISLAM it says also your not suppose to pray so people can see you and say so and so prays....our reward is with GOD alone!!

Jesus tells you only GOD knows what it is? meaning in your heart right, well he is right, GOD ONLY KNOWS THAT!!

we never diagreed with the Bible, only what people have added!!!
***GOD did not create man to leave him alone with no path to follow. Rather, GOD revealed the Books and sent Messengers to guide mankind to the Straight Path***.....
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Malsidabym
03-13-2006, 10:42 PM
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
“The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely or speak rudely.”
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abdul Majid
03-13-2006, 10:42 PM
its clear that they all came with the same message, to worsip nobody except God and to tell us of the purpose in life, it is a test on which we will be judged and will then enter heaven or hell....


Allaah sent Adam and his wife, and Iblees, down to the earth, and He sent down Revelation to them and He sent the Messengers to them. So whoever believes will enter Paradise and whoever disbelieves will enter Hell:

When Allaah sent them all down to the earth, the conflict between faith and kufr, between truth and falsehood, between good and evil, began, and it will continue until Allaah inherits the earth and everyone on it:
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 10:45 PM
God in the bible does change, from this vengeful one God to this three-in-one somewhat blood-thirsty but apparently All-Merciful God. The bible doesn't make sense. The bible has been changed, you never told me about what you think about this. You must have come across the many contradictions.
I think the blood sacrifices were man-made, they never existed. If they did them then it was because they were ignorant. I don't believe in the blood sacrifice thing.
We worship the same God, but you slander Him and commit blasphemy and ascibe partners to Him, we don't. That's the difference.
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 11:18 PM
But the bible has been changed. What do you say about that? Perhaps the prophecies are true, maybe some guy somewhere made it up
All Muslims tells us the Bible has been changed...Yet we as Christians and the Jews with the OT see no contridictions...but if we look to the Koran we can see plenty..of differences..like it was Issac who was the promised son of God..where as you believe it was Ismael..

Also the Koran states Mary mother of Jesus was the sister of Aaron..

At length she brought (the babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms), They said: "O Mary! Truly a strange thing has thou brought! "O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a man of evil, nor your mother a woman unchaste!"
-- Sura 19:27-28

Yet we understand he was Moses brother

Sorry I don't understand what you mean about the prophecies...are you meaning...someone changed the prophecies later in the Bible or the prophets made these future events up..many prohecies have been fullfilled yet many are yet to be in our future. If these are lies they will not come true of course..so far many have turned out to be true.

We 17 prophetic books, 5 of which are considered "major" and the remaining 12 "minor". The major prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel are called such not so much due to the size of the book but due to the relative importance of their content.
Even though the book of the prophet Daniel only contains 12 chapters, there are more specific prophecies about the future, time lines and clarifications covering today and tomorow than in any of the other prophetic books.

That isn't the point, the point is the bible has been changed and everyone has to admit this
The point is these prophecies have come true and I believe with many other people, that the rest will come to into being. So why should we not believe when we can see the evidence to support them.

You can't be 100% sure that the Bible as been changed because neither of us where there to say (The meaning of salvation etc)
But if you mean like the words in the KJV are different from the modern words used in the NIV and different versions well yes, because they are used for different audiences thoughout the world.....a Childs Bible will different to an adults Bible, easy words for the Child to understand..etc...also the use of our Languge as changed over the centuries...we no longer us Thou...Thy...Thee like in the KJV


Just like the Koran being translated into English, etc. It is not exact to the orginial version.
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abdul Majid
03-13-2006, 11:19 PM
wow nicola im glad your here, did i disrespect you in any way???
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-13-2006, 11:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
All Muslims tells us the Bible has been changed...Yet we as Christians and the Jews with the OT see no contridictions...but if we look to the Koran we can see plenty..of differences..like it was Issac who was the promised son of God..where as you believe it was Ismael..

Also the Koran states Mary mother of Jesus was the sister of Aaron..

At length she brought (the babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms), They said: "O Mary! Truly a strange thing has thou brought! "O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a man of evil, nor your mother a woman unchaste!"
-- Sura 19:27-28

Yet we understand he was Moses brother

Sorry I don't understand what you mean about the prophecies...are you meaning...someone changed the prophecies later in the Bible or the prophets made these future events up..many prohecies have been fullfilled yet many are yet to be in our future. If these are lies they will not come true of course..so far many have turned out to be true.

We 17 prophetic books, 5 of which are considered "major" and the remaining 12 "minor". The major prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel are called such not so much due to the size of the book but due to the relative importance of their content.
Even though the book of the prophet Daniel only contains 12 chapters, there are more specific prophecies about the future, time lines and clarifications covering today and tomorow than in any of the other prophetic books.



The point is these prophecies have come true and I believe with many other people, that the rest will come to into being. So why should we not believe when we can see the evidence to support them.

You can't be 100% sure that the Bible as been changed because neither of us where there to say (The meaning of salvation etc)
But if you mean like the words in the KJV are different from the modern words used in the NIV and different versions well yes, because they are used for different audiences thoughout the world.....a Childs Bible will different to an adults Bible, easy words for the Child to understand..etc...also the use of our Languge as changed over the centuries...we no longer us Thou...Thy...Thee like in the KJV


Just like the Koran being translated into English, etc. It is not exact to the orginial version.
hehe... watch an ahmed deedat video sis. May Allah have mercy on his soul, he did alot of good work.

The Qur'an isn't contradicting if it disagrees with the bible, it's only contradicting if it disagrees with itself. Why shouldn't it disagree with the bible, it has been changed.
As to the statement about the Qur'an, it wasn't literal. Sister of Aaron as in, descendant of Aaron.

And the catholic bible is WAY different to the protestant bible, not just words... whole books!

Try to be a little bit open-minded. Consider the possibility that the bible may have been changed.
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abdul Majid
03-13-2006, 11:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
hehe... watch an ahmed deedat video sis. May Allah have mercy on his soul, he did alot of good work.

The Qur'an isn't contradicting if it disagrees with the bible, it's only contradicting if it disagrees with itself. Why shouldn't it disagree with the bible, it has been changed.
As to the statement about the Qur'an, it wasn't literal. Sister of Aaron as in, descendant of Aaron.

And the catholic bible is WAY different to the protestant bible, not just words... whole books!

Try to be a little bit open-minded. Consider the possibility that the bible may have been changed.

i agree sis
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 11:54 PM
[QUOTE=abdul Majid;210541]i beleive that you lack alot of knowledge about ISLAM ! so you should investigate before anything ! for your knowledge for truth !

Yes you are right..I do not have much knowledge on Islam but I know on the main...doctrine of Christiaity it differs greatly from Islam...and thats the reason why I am here to understand more about what those differences are.
My knowlege was given to me in my vision and I know Jesus does not lie.

So here you say Jesus is basicly corrrecting the OT?? right !
ok thats good becuse people were mislead, just as it happened in the NT and people got mislead, then the Quran came to guide them again!!
No I am not saying Jesus corrected the OT but rather stated to us that it was true...like when Jesus tells us times will be like they where before Noah...

Like he tells us about Daniels prophecies...if anything had of been wrong he would have said...instead he confirmed it has the truth.
so Moses was told to use blood to save...the Jewish used blood to atone for sin always using innocent animals...then the Koran doesn't mention anything about that God using blood at all...see the difference?...all of a sudden God no longer requires a blood sacrifice...it simple does not make sense.



we do beleive in the first two religons hellooo, and we follow what GOD has said and not those extra man made verses!!

we beleive in christ and his second coming!!
Yes I know you believe parts of the Bible that only the ones that fit in with the words of the Koran...anything that differs from the Koran or not mentioned in the Koran...Muslims say the Bible is wrong..been changed...etc
we all have our own mind to believe which one is true.

Even Jesus' second coming in the Koran is totally different to what the bible says it will be like...why would God change His mind....But if it was made up by man like you say...then man shall see for ourselves when the time comes...when or if in your case the prophecies from old start coming true..then we shall know which book is true is from God...so up to our present time all prophecies have come true so I do not doubt the rest will come true..we are now waiting for others to be fullfilled...then people shall know for sure.



you say the Quran contradicts the Bible, well which Bible?? there many , and you DO NOT HAVE THE ORIGINAL, ONLY WHAT MAN HAS SUBSITUTED!! SO HOW CAN YOU EVEN SAY THAT?? and by the way the Bible contradicts itsself!! The Quran clears all the man made cludder from it!!

It condtadicts in every version...from the KJV to the NIV
all the bibles no matter which edition ...editions state the same doctrine for us to follow and that is our main concern...not the use of two different words meaning the same thing etc.






we never diagreed with the Bible, only what people have added!!!
***GOD did not create man to leave him alone with no path to follow. Rather, GOD revealed the Books and sent Messengers to guide mankind to the Straight Path***.....
in ISLAM it says also your not suppose to pray so people can see you and say so and so prays....our reward is with GOD alone!!

So why do you pray so people can see you then...alot I think comes from culture and not your religion..like my Muslim girlfriend...she has to send her young son to Quran lessons she tells me..etc...So people she knows won't talk about her not sending her child.. It really shouldn't matter what people think...Only what God thinks and knows about us.
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abdul Majid
03-13-2006, 11:56 PM
nicola have i offended you??


and when you see muslims pray altogether thats becuase we get more reward like that
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Nicola
03-13-2006, 11:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
nicola im glad your here, did i disrespect you in any way???
Not at all...I'm glad I'm here also...:) how else can I learn.

If I want to understand other peoples beliefs etc...I need to ask..

Because I ask, I hope I'm not coming over has disrespectful...I want to understand fully the differences.
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abdul Majid
03-14-2006, 12:19 AM
OK THATS BEAUTIFUL ask me if you need help
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Muhammad
03-14-2006, 12:21 AM
:sl: and Greetings,

I have deleted the off-topic posts about members insulting each other. May I remind you that you should discuss respectfully, and if you wish to advise someone you do not need to turn it into an argument; it might even be better to contact one of the staff instead, who can issue a warning.

Also, please refrain from judging someone about their religion, eg. accusing them of not being a Muslim, as this is not the duty of anyone here nor is it possible for anyone to know from a forum.

Thank you,

Peace.
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Nicola
03-14-2006, 12:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
so.... you think its impossible to do a deed in public and still hold onto sincerity? I manage to do it. I do most of my good deeds in private obviously, but i wouldn't stop doing a good deeds in public just coz someone was there. This may encourage the person present to do a good deeds aswell and it may remind them of God.
No Jesus didn't mean it like that not to help people in the open..it depends on the situation......he meant it like..don't go around telling other people what you have done...bragging about it, showing off. I gave so and so this and that..
if you give anything to the poor for instance do it in private...don't tell anyone at all, not friends family etc.. if you give to charity do it in private....only God should now...that kind of thing, that is the way we shall be rewarded...

Is that how it is in Islam also.
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Nicola
03-14-2006, 12:36 AM
its clear that they all came with the same message, to worsip nobody except God and to tell us of the purpose in life, it is a test on which we will be judged and will then enter heaven or hell....
I don't agree...the messages are different...for instance Jesus tells us we are (Christians) guaranteed salvation...

I understand in Islam you will know on Judgement day if you are saved or not?

So these two messages are different.
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abdul Majid
03-14-2006, 12:41 AM
im curious to know where he says that? and what do you have to do to get it?
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Nicola
03-14-2006, 01:00 AM
We worship the same God, but you slander Him and commit blasphemy and ascibe partners to Him, we don't. That's the difference.
I am sorry you should feel that way about me, I feel that you are insulting me and my beliefs and my Holy Father.

I haven't come here to insult anyone ..but to understand the difference between our beliefs systems.
If this is your way of communicating in an adult fashion...I'd prefer this was our last contact.
thankyou.
God Bless
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Nicola
03-14-2006, 01:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
OK THATS BEAUTIFUL ask me if you need help
Thanks so much abdul

I will remember that :)
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Nicola
03-14-2006, 01:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
im curious to know where he says that? and what do you have to do to get it?
John 3:5
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
The Spirit Jesus is talking about is the Holy Spirit when you ask and recieve this gift...Your life actually changes, you begin to start being lead by the Holy Spirit in as many parts of your life that you will allow.
If you'll allow it to that is...alot of Christians resist certain areas of their lives...that is why they still do bad or wrong things.....The Holy Spirit will stop you sinning...if you will allow it to.
This is how you are born again...When you hear of 'Born Again Christians'...this is what Jesus was talking about...to be 'born again'..
your old self dies..your bad old ways go.... You feel different ,you become different..and it a wonderful feeling inside...and it's how God wishes us to become and live.
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abdul Majid
03-14-2006, 01:32 AM
thanks
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E'jaazi
03-14-2006, 04:43 AM
[God still requires blood..and that blood comes from Jesus Christ of saviour..so we Christians believe in the blood of Christ for atonement of our sins we commit against God..
Jesus' blood is so powerful.]


Nicola,


Please go back and read my last post, Page 7 I think. "Each man willbe judegd according to his WORKS!"
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Nicola
03-14-2006, 07:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by blackjubba
[God still requires blood..and that blood comes from Jesus Christ of saviour..so we Christians believe in the blood of Christ for atonement of our sins we commit against God..
Jesus' blood is so powerful.]


Nicola,


Please go back and read my last post, Page 7 I think. "Each man willbe judegd according to his WORKS!"

Yes I know that is what the Koran says..I am not disagreeing that it tells us that fact...and that is what you believe.

These topics in this section are about comparative religions and that is what I am doing comparing my beliefs (Christianity) against Islamic belief.

What I am saying is that God required blood for our sins in the Bible why not now?

Unless you want to dismiss the fact that God required blood for sin and it was used throughout the OT? The Jews today are still waiting to build their new temple...as you probably know and also prophecies in the bible tell us that it will happen..So they can contintue with their blood sacrifies for their atonement of sin..in the Holy of Holyies. Then we are told it will be made un-clean because of the anti-christ.

There were two parties to the old covenant, God himself and the "children of Israel," or Nation of Israel if you will. The covenant of laws was a covenant of flesh, a covenant of behavior in the Earth, of blessings and curses. Most importantly, it was a covenant of blood atonements, i.e. sacrifices for Israel's sins.
http://godinisrael.com/term_cov.htm


If you have proof for me that God changed his mind...from requiring blood to

only required good works...I would be grateful.


How does the Koran explain why God changed from blood for atonement to works only?

For what reasons does Mohammed tell us, as to why God changed his mind.

Where abouts in the Koran does it mention about the Jews using blood atonement and this was wrong according to the Koran....

I cannot dismiss how many thousands of years history and Gods law away and now believe salvation is done just by works alone and then we do not know if we are saved or not until judgement day.


Because of one mans prophecy..(No offence intented) I would question anyone! When my eternal life depends on this very fact and I don't take it lighty.
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E'jaazi
03-14-2006, 08:04 AM
[If you have proof for me that God changed his mind...from requiring blood to
only required good works...I would be grateful.]


Nicola,


That is what it states in the Bible! I was not quoting the Qu'ran! It is in the book of Revelations. But I thought you knew that. If you can't find it, let me know. I'm going to get it for you anyway!
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Nicola
03-14-2006, 08:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by blackjubba
[If you have proof for me that God changed his mind...from requiring blood to
only required good works...I would be grateful.]


Nicola,


That is what it states in the Bible! I was not quoting the Qu'ran! It is in the book of Revelations. But I thought you knew that. If you can't find it, let me know. I'm going to get it for you anyway!

Please answer all my questions in my post before,
else there is little point in this debate really.

then we can go on to the book of Revelations
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E'jaazi
03-14-2006, 08:18 AM
Nicola, here it is! And it says exactly what Muslims believe. The Qu'ran is a confirmation and now you have it and it cannot be denied. So do not try and twist this around. John is speaking about the things that will happen after the earth is destroyed, i.e. judgement day:




Revelation 20:12-14 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
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E'jaazi
03-14-2006, 08:23 AM
Here is part 2: And if you are a Christian, then you believe these to be the words that Jesus spoke to John!


Revelation 22:11-13 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain




11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
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E'jaazi
03-14-2006, 08:34 AM
Look what the Bible & the Qu'ran say about the status of Jesus:


Acts Chapter 2 Verse 22


22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Surah 5 Ayat 75

The Messiah, Jesus, son of Maryum, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother (Mary) was a Siddiqqah. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah (God) does not eat.....
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sargon
03-14-2006, 02:14 PM
:sl:
Well to me it makes more sense that we would be allowed to enter into heaven from our actions and good deeds rather than blood from an animal.

Can you eat the animal after you sacrifice it? Are there a certain amount of animals per person you should sacrifice? What about for the atonement of Chinese or African people's sins?

Not being sarcastic, just trying to understand :)
:w:
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Muslim Knight
03-15-2006, 02:58 AM
So we have established (even from the Bible!) that God judges people by deeds and He does not require blood to atone for sins. Sacrifices were just acts of obedience which He commanded us to do, and till today Muslims are the ones closest to the religion of Abraham because we still perpetuate the Qurban. Muslims even have a celebration for it called Eidul Adha.

Back to my previous arguments, how then does the people that have gone before Jesus atone for their sins without accepting Jesus as their Savior nor did Jesus die for them? Now that we know blood sacrifices they offered were just acts of worship of God (in the sense they were carrying out God's command).

For Christians, this will remain a dilemma. For us Muslims, we already have the answer, by God in His Revelation, Al-Qur'an.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-15-2006, 05:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
No Jesus didn't mean it like that not to help people in the open..it depends on the situation......he meant it like..don't go around telling other people what you have done...bragging about it, showing off. I gave so and so this and that..
if you give anything to the poor for instance do it in private...don't tell anyone at all, not friends family etc.. if you give to charity do it in private....only God should now...that kind of thing, that is the way we shall be rewarded...

Is that how it is in Islam also.
Absolutely. Allah will give shade on the day of judgement to 7 types of people, one of them being the one who gives charity in a way that not even his left hand knows what his right hand gave. Isn't that beautiful? Muslims are encouraged to do many good deeds in private, but not to withold just because someone is present. The key is your sincerity in your heart.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-15-2006, 05:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
I am sorry you should feel that way about me, I feel that you are insulting me and my beliefs and my Holy Father.

I haven't come here to insult anyone ..but to understand the difference between our beliefs systems.
If this is your way of communicating in an adult fashion...I'd prefer this was our last contact.
thankyou.
God Bless
What....
I didn't mean it like that at all. I'm truly sorry. I don't remember saying anything about 'your Holy father' thogh. This is what Muslims belive and it is written in the Qur'an, but sorry if you interpretted it in a way that seemed harsh. You believe my religion is wrong, i don't think that's rude at all. But think of it this way. We worship God in pure tawheed. The word tawheed is hard to translate, but basically it means that you worship God in pure islamic monotheism. We do not ascribe any partners to Him, and we worship Him in unity. We do not need a middle man, we pray to Him directly. We ask of Him alone, we worship Him alone, we gloify Him alone. We cannot go to imams and ask them to beg for our forgiveness. This si what I menat.
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i_m_tipu
03-15-2006, 06:02 AM
:sl:

we muslim beleive prophet moss (pbuh) and prophet jesus (pbuh) and prophet mohammad (pbuh) and so on which comming from one god

so in the Judgments day is not we more safer than u (non beleiver)???

Every prophet had some or vast miracle sign....

prophet mohammad (pbuh) had also that was the Quran...
the Quran is a miracle of miracle..
it does not matter that u not understand or Undermined it's miracle..
The quran shall amaged people till the world exits..as it is the miracle of miracle..

may Allaah mercy on us with opening our mind

:w:
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Nicola
03-15-2006, 08:01 PM
So we have established (even from the Bible!) that God judges people by deeds and He does not require blood to atone for sins.
Lev 4:1-3 - And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering. And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.

Lev 6:24-30 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, saying, This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD: it is most holy. The priest that offereth it for sin shall eat it: in the holy place shall it be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of the congregation. Whatsoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy: and when there is sprinkled of the blood thereof upon any garment, thou shalt wash that whereon it was sprinkled in the holy place. But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: and if it be sodden in a brazen pot, it shall be both scoured, and rinsed in water. All the males among the priests shall eat thereof: it is most holy. And no sin offering, whereof any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of the congregation to reconcile withal in the holy place, shall be eaten: it shall be burnt in the fire.


I could find you plenty of more...or you could just ask any Jewish person...

Please explain away these scriptures...

And please tell me why? and where abouts? in the Koran God did away with blood atonement for sin...
and when where they done away with according to the Koran..what year?
I've asked these questions before in these forums and yet no one as answered then...


why?
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-15-2006, 09:52 PM
they were never required.
Can I aks you a question now please? What if a peasant sins? How does he get this blood offering?
-Peace
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Nicola
03-15-2006, 10:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
they were never required.
Can I aks you a question now please? What if a peasant sins? How does he get this blood offering?
-Peace

They were never required in Islam...true

Does it mention anything in the Koran about them at all? Even if they weren't needed..to tell us why etc?

Because we now have Jesus ....so no blood scarifices were needed since Jesus offered his blood for us..

The blood scarifices were not done like your imagining...

If you read the above scriptures you will see that it was the high priest who offered the scarifice for the Jewish sins.

This sin offering was done up unto 70AD up until their Holy Temple got destroyed...and was only done by the High Priest...only this one person was allowed into the Holy of Holies..to be in the presence of God.

Prophecies in the Bible tell us that after the Jews become a nation again which happened in 1948 with the state of Israel ...they will then build their Holy Temple again, which will be 7 years before Jesus' returns..and they will continue with their scarifices when it is built.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-15-2006, 10:46 PM
Wouldn't a loving God have a one-to-one relationship with His servants?
My christian friend told me that when you make a prayer you have to go through Jesus (as). But technically don't you believe Jesus is God, so what difference does it make that you pray to God through Jesus or not, you believe they are both God, so isn't Jesus too holy to approach too?
The only time i remember a blood sacrifice being mentioned in the Qur'an was in the story of Prophet Ibraheem/Abraham (as) and his son, and that was only as a test. So when they proved they were true believers God let them sacrifice a lamb instead. But again, they did not sin and this was only as a show of faith. We believe that even the prophets were tested. Actually we believe the more faith you have the more you are tested, so the Prophets (peace be upon them all) were given the harshest tests. Prophet Ayyub (Job) with his constant illnesses, Prophet Yusuf (Joseph) spent many years in prison for no crime, Jesus was almost crucified and was sent to the most difficult of nations, Prophet Muhammad was evicted form his home, abused verbally and physically, his family members died, his daughters divorced, several attempts were made on his noble life and his every living day was a struggle. He had not even a single penny when he died(peace and blessings upon them all!). The sacrifices that we believe in are more than rituals. They are true tests of faith. We believe that repentance and good deeds wipe away sins.
I started reading the bible a few years ago after my christian friend gave it to me. I have to tell you, it was quite upsetting. Why are the prophets shown in such a negative light?
-Peace
Reply

Nicola
03-15-2006, 11:01 PM
Wouldn't a loving God have a one-to-one relationship with His servants?
We aren't his servants...we are his Children..
The relationship with the Father is a very personal one...1-1
Because we believe Jesus died for our sins...and used his blood to atone for our sins..we are going through Jesus..our belief is his blood saved us...so now we pray to our Father..
Our prayers are personal..we can pray to Jesus or God..

We don't ask Jesus if we can pray to God...

hope you can understand what I am meaning.


They are personal prayers because Jesus tells us God hates repetative pray and will not listen to it.

I started reading the bible a few years ago after my christian friend gave it to me. I have to tell you, it was quite upsetting. Why are the prophets shown in such a negative light?

bad light how do you mean?

Jesus mentions about how the prophets where badly treated by their own people, when prophets warned the Jews what was going to befall them..if they didn't change their ways and repent..the people didn't like the messages so the prophets where almost always badly abused some how.


do you mean like that?
Reply

abdul Majid
03-15-2006, 11:03 PM
which bible are we talking about??? there are many
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-15-2006, 11:06 PM
no.... like they said Prophet Noah was naked and drunk in a tent. I don't think God would choose such a person as a prophet. It said alot of bad things about prophets. It also said Abraham wrestled with God... now isn't that degrading God?
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Nicola
03-15-2006, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
which bible are we talking about??? there are many
It depends how good your comprehenstion is as to which text you use.
I personally don't like the KJV because I don't use English like that. Though my best friend only uses that one..

I find the NIV more comfortable for my English.

The meanings are the same in all Bibles, pretty much like different interpations of the Koran.

Different words same meanings.

Which interpation of the Koran do you study....
or do you read Arabic?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-15-2006, 11:18 PM
but different sects have different bibles. For example, the catholic bible is very much different to the protestant bible. All Muslims have one Qur'an. It remains the smae in arabic, that can never be changed. However, it is very hard to completely and accurately translate one langauge to another. So different scholars use different english words to describe one arabic word. You see? It's just a translation of the meaning. But the arabic Qur'an can never be changed. Allah Ta'ala has promised to keep it safe till the day of judgement. Not one dot has been changed since the beginning.
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abdul Majid
03-15-2006, 11:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
It depends how good your comprehenstion is as to which text you use.
I personally don't like the KJV because I don't use English like that. Though my best friend only uses that one..

I find the NIV more comfortable for my English.

The meanings are the same in all Bibles, pretty much like different interpations of the Koran.

Different words same meanings.

Which interpation of the Koran do you study....
or do you read Arabic?
actually there not, theres only one VERSION of the quran, but many of the bible....

remember, VERSIONS are different from TRANSLATIONS..

BY THE WAY DO YOU READ THE SRV
Reply

Nicola
03-15-2006, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
no.... like they said Prophet Noah was naked and drunk in a tent. I don't think God would choose such a person as a prophet. It said alot of bad things about prophets. It also said Abraham wrestled with God... now isn't that degrading God?

:)

ok I understand what you mean now..

Well yes I expect it was wrong for Noah to be in that state... the point of the story I believe was about his sons....God saw the goodness and kindness of the two sons but not Ham...but it is Hams son Canaan who is cured..
"sins of the father" I expect.

God said Noah was a preacher of righteousness so God must have thought very highly of him..
Noahs heart must have been good and kind.



According to the Bible getting drunk is wrong and still is today for Chrisitans...but drinking alcohol was not forbidden and isn't today...for even Jesus turned water into wine..
Though I can't stand the stuff...lol
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-15-2006, 11:37 PM
uh.... so you think the prophet of a nation would get drunk and naked in a tent?
The Qur'an says no such thing of Prophets. All Prophets are equal to Muslims, and we love and respect them and would never say anything negative about them. It's funny how nothing negative is said of Jesus. I belivee the prophets are degraded just to make Jesus look perfect and to portray him as god-like. Yes Jesus was perfect, i don't think other prophets need to be degraded just to achieve that point. We love Jesus (peace be upon him) dearly and also eagerly await his return. I don't understand why you take jews as closer allies just because they believe in the old testament, when we like you love and respect Jesus with all our heart. I think you should read chapter 3 'Ali Imran'. There are some beautiful words about Mary (peace be upon her) and Jesus (peace be upon him) in that chapter, aswell as through out the Qur'an. By the way, it's worth mentioning that Prophets Muhammad and Jesus are mentioned by name 25 times each.
-Peace
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Nicola
03-15-2006, 11:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
actually there not, theres only one VERSION of the quran, but many of the bible....

remember, VERSIONS are different from TRANSLATIONS..

BY THE WAY DO YOU READ THE SRV

So tell me the different versions of the bible please


I have a number of Bibles and study Bibles..
I also use e-sword which is avaliable downloaded on-line for free...so I can compare different bibles, commentary, maps etc...

No I don't like the SRV either...my church recommends this version or the KJV.
I'm more a basic kind of person....lol and will stick with my NIV


though I do compare with the KJV through e-sword with others.
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abdul Majid
03-15-2006, 11:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
No I don't like the SRV either...my church recommends this version or the KJV.




why? do they recomend the kjv? i heard the srv is the oldest and therefore the nearer to the true bible??
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Muslim Knight
03-16-2006, 03:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
I don't agree...the messages are different...for instance Jesus tells us we are (Christians) guaranteed salvation...
[Yusufali 5:18] (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah, and his beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"

The Quran asks the Christians, if you are guaranteed salvation and Paradise, why does then God punishes you still for your sins? Look around the world and observe all the calamities that have befallen men, and look and what will happen next.

I understand in Islam you will know on Judgement day if you are saved or not?
We are saved only by God's Mercy. To obtain that Mercy we are told to worship Him alone, obey His commands, do good works and avoid evil deeds.

The Spirit Jesus is talking about is the Holy Spirit when you ask and recieve this gift...Your life actually changes, you begin to start being lead by the Holy Spirit in as many parts of your life that you will allow.
If you'll allow it to that is...alot of Christians resist certain areas of their lives...that is why they still do bad or wrong things.....The Holy Spirit will stop you sinning...if you will allow it to.
This is how you are born again...When you hear of 'Born Again Christians'...this is what Jesus was talking about...to be 'born again'..
your old self dies..your bad old ways go.... You feel different ,you become different..and it a wonderful feeling inside...and it's how God wishes us to become and live.
What do you say about ex-Christians who embraced Islam, became Muslims and eventually, better persons? What can you say about those who have found peace in Allah? Has the Holy Spirit abandoned them? What about me? I am still alive, by His grace, and I live by His grace (that without it I am already dead) is it possible for the Holy Spirit to have abandon me because I am a Muslim (submitting to the Will of God)?

My conviction and Allah's Grace will stop me from sinning. In Islam we are taught that God is Most Loving (Al-Wadood). Thinking of Him (who loved me dearly and has kept me alive so far) is enough to apprehend any thought of sinning against Him.

I have known Muslims who behave badly, drinking and sleeping around. They are Muslims, but they neglect much of the Islamic teachings. But I have also known Muslims who felt Islamic laws as outdated and stringent so they left Islam and converted to Christianity in order to enjoy life more.They claim the Holy Spirit guards them against sin. So they party around, go back home at wee hours of the morning, drunk and doing nonsensical things. Instead of praying to God five times a day as a Muslim, now they go see Him only on weekends. How can you claim to love God so much and go see your Loved One only once a week?

Malay Muslims where I lived, here in Malaysia, are leaving Islam in order to enjoy life instead of thinking about more orderly, peaceful life that guarantees good character and conduct. Do you seriously think it's fair to award sinners with Paradise (when they claim to have been saved by the sacrifice of one person) compared to pious people who worship only God, do good works throughout their life and repent everytime for their failings?

How do you think we are going to solve our problems in life then? Abortion? Alcoholism? AIDS?
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E'jaazi
03-16-2006, 04:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
I could find you plenty of more...or you could just ask any Jewish person...

Please explain away these scriptures...

And please tell me why? and where abouts? in the Koran God did away with blood atonement for sin...
and when where they done away with according to the Koran..what year?
I've asked these questions before in these forums and yet no one as answered then...


why?


I see that you had no response to the verses of the bible that I posted for you, where it clearly states that every man will be judged according to his works. As I stated, if you are a Christian, you believe the last verses I quoted to be Jesus speaking directly to John. But instead, you posted a few verses from the OT that really have nothing to do with Judgement day. The ones I posted, do. And none of them mention blood atonement or having Jesus as your personal saviour. As for you asking about the Qu'ran doing away with blood atonement, I also posted a passage from the Qu'ran about that and you have chosen to ignore it. It is obvious, that if you did read my post, you were surprised and don't know what to say. You probably didn't even know about those passages. But the ones I quoted you were very clear.
It is also obvious that instead of addressing those passages, you are simply going to qoute other passages from the bible, that not only do not prove me wrong, but rather, do no more than contradict other passages. I have proven my point and shown you in your own book how man is to be judged. All I can say to you know is that I hope Allah will guide you to the plain and simple truth.
Reply

Nicola
03-16-2006, 08:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by blackjubba
I see that you had no response to the verses of the bible that I posted for you, where it clearly states that every man will be judged according to his works. As I stated, if you are a Christian, you believe the last verses I quoted to be Jesus speaking directly to John. But instead, you posted a few verses from the OT that really have nothing to do with Judgement day. The ones I posted, do. ANd none of them mention blood atonement of having Jesus as your personal saviour. AS for you asking about the Qu'ran doing away with blood atonement, I also posted a passage from the Qu'ran about that and you have chosen to ignore it. It is obvious that if you did read my post, you were surprised and don't know what to say. You probably didn't even know about those passages. But the ones I quoted you were very clear.
It is also obvious that instead of addressing those passages, you are simply going to qoute other passages from the bible, that not only do not prove me wrong, but rather, do no more than contradict other passages. I have proven my point and shown you in your own book how man is to be judged. All I can say to you know is that I hope Allah will guide you to the plain and simple truth.

Firstly I would like to ask you, when you write a personal letter to someone you actually know...do you have to repeat everytime who you are? every single detail about yourself...or do persume that, that person will know about you and your history together already?


Yes I agree that Jesus was talking through John in revelation but not to John personaly the letters where not for John nor I...and now I will explain who the book of revelations was intended for.... Jesus is talking in revelations to his people.....they are already believers Christians...they already knew they needed Jesus as their saviours for their sins..which came from his blood.

Why would Jesus need to repeat they needed his salvation..(his blood) when they had already accepted it...you only need to accept it once...

Revelations was strictly written for those 7 churches mentioned...some working well and other where not...Jesus is telling them what they are doing wrong and praising their good works also.

It wasn't written for you or me or joe bloggs personaly...though now we do have those letters..and it is guidance for Christians only, who firstly believe in Jesus it isn't for non-believers because they haven't firstly done what Jesus told them.....

Some Christians do, do good works...those who do not...and just expect Jesus to pass them into heaven on a free pass...why those are up to Jesus to Judge

See a true Chrisitan will want to do good works to glorify our Holy Father...and also the Holy Spirit changes our very nature...
Christians who do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them...are a totaly different Christian all together...It would be like calling someone a Muslim who commits sins repeatedly...someone who drinks,smokes etc and does not submit to Allah.


The OT is very important to Christians or should be...It gives an account of God and his laws etc...God never changes ever...

also many prophecies from the OT still need to be fullfilled. So God as not done away with anything..


Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not

I did read your earlier post...it was your attitude I choose to ignore.


There is no contradiction within revelation.......

only misunderstanding
Reply

E'jaazi
03-16-2006, 08:52 AM
Nice try, but what you have written is only your opinion. It says what it says and it is very clear. Also, it was not meant for Christians, because Jesus clearly says in the NT that he has only come for who? The Lost House of Israel. Also, if you read the verse it also clearly says 'every man'. The only way you could possibly prove to anyone that what was meant was Christians or those who accepted Jesus, is to give a clear definition of the original hebrew wording, which would contain a more definitive meaning. You can't do that, so we have to take the english at its word. Yet in still, you will reject the Qu'ran which does have the original writings and calls you to worship the ONE true Lord. The same Lord Jesus worshipped and has instructed you to worship. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but a fact is a fact.
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E'jaazi
03-16-2006, 08:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola

I did read your earlier post...it was your attitude I choose to ignore.

By the way, I did, nor do I now, have an attitude. You are one of the most respectful Christians on the forum. I simply put down the truth. And when you do, being ignored is the usual response. The verse I quoted from Acts, was supposedly written by the Apostles, who wrote that Jesus was a man. This coincides with our beliefs. Peace be unto you!
Reply

Nicola
03-16-2006, 09:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
The Qur'an says no such thing of Prophets. All Prophets are equal to Muslims, and we love and respect them and would never say anything negative about them. It's funny how nothing negative is said of Jesus. I belivee the prophets are degraded just to make Jesus look perfect and to portray him as god-like. Yes Jesus was perfect, i don't think other prophets need to be degraded just to achieve that point. We love Jesus (peace be upon him) dearly and also eagerly await his return. I don't understand why you take jews as closer allies just because they believe in the old testament, when we like you love and respect Jesus with all our heart. I think you should read chapter 3 'Ali Imran'. There are some beautiful words about Mary (peace be upon her) and Jesus (peace be upon him) in that chapter, aswell as through out the Qur'an. By the way, it's worth mentioning that Prophets Muhammad and Jesus are mentioned by name 25 times each.
-Peace
uh.... so you think the prophet of a nation would get drunk and naked in a tent?
I believe the bible yes...so what is written I accept...
I am not saying his behaviour was right...remember the days of Noah where really evil times...like what Jesus tells us...before he returns it will be like the days of Noah.


Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

I don't agree that the prophets where made to look bad, so has to make Jesus look a perfect person...firstly because the OT was written way before Jesus' time...Jesus even used to quote the OT offen...so it was not changed in anyway.
Do you think the Jews would change their Torah to help Jesus' message in anyway?
Yes Jesus was perfect in everyway and still is, it is impossible for Jesus to sin..but the rest of the prophets did sin..

Many Chrisitans do not take Jews as friends...and Chrisitans Muslims.
We should love everyone the same.

but what does God say about this..
Genesis
Chapter 12
1 The LORD said to Abram: "Go forth from the land of your kinsfolk and from your father's house to a land that I will show you".
2 "I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you".

Many Jews do believe in Jesus...Messanic Jews...though not enough :( yet..but they will understand one day when their veil has been removed who Jesus actually is.

We as Chrisitans look on Jesus as someone different to how Muslims see him, We believe he is God who came down in human form to save us, no one on earth could have done it, ony God because he is perfect...So Jesus for us is placed higher than any prophet.

Could you tell me please...from what I have heard and read, I understand that Muslims except the book of revelation as true...though Jesus gives us a different account of his return to the Islamic belief of his return..

Do Muslims just except the parts of the book of revelation that fits in with their belief from the Koran? and the rest is untrue according to Islam?

God Bless
Reply

Muslim Knight
03-16-2006, 09:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
Yes I agree that Jesus was talking through John in revelation but not to John personaly the letters where not for John nor I...and now I will explain who the book of revelations was intended for.... Jesus is talking in revelations to his people.....they are already believers Christians...they already knew they needed Jesus as their saviours for their sins..which came from his blood.
Nowhere in the Bible did it mention them as Christians nor if they knew they need Jesus as savior whose blood sacrifice they needed to atone for sins. If you say they were his disciples/followers I would have agreed.

Why would Jesus need to repeat they needed his salvation..(his blood) when they had already accepted it...you only need to accept it once...
As an omnipotent God, he would have known future generations would need the confirmation, especially in case of needing to accept someone who is being sacrificed so that he can carry the burden of sin. It is not small matter you can trifle with. This is regarding one person's life! Accounts of the Bible clearly states that Jesus did not know he is being sacrificed for the sins nor the disciples did claim so.

Some Christians do, do good works...those who do not...and just expect Jesus to pass them into heaven on a free pass...why those are up to Jesus to Judge
If you claim to be free of sins (because Jesus has died for your sins) and that you are guaranteed Paradise, then why bother with Judgment? It would only concern people who have never accepted Jesus as savior, like us Muslims and those pious people who went before Jesus. It would not concern "some Christians do good works and those who do not..." because their sins are already forgiven (according to you).

See a true Chrisitan will want to do good works to glorify our Holy Father...and also the Holy Spirit changes our very nature...
Christians who do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them...are a totaly different Christian all together...It would be like calling someone a Muslim who commits sins repeatedly...someone who drinks,smokes etc and does not submit to Allah.
So you admit pious Muslims have Holy Spirit inside them? Even without accepting Jesus as Savior? Horraayy! Salvation only with God and not with Jesus! Rejoice Muslims!
Reply

sargon
03-16-2006, 09:51 AM
:sl:
If God wanted to forgive sins why not just do away with judgement day? Why go through all these things in a human body?
:w:
Reply

E'jaazi
03-16-2006, 10:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola


Do Muslims just except the parts of the book of revelation that fits in with their belief from the Koran? and the rest is untrue according to Islam?

God Bless

The Qu'ran was sent down as a confirmation of what was sent down before it. But the bible has been corrupted and there is no proof of what was written in it before. (except for the dead sea scrolls, which they don't want people to read). Therefore, what is confirmed in the Qu'ran is the truth from our Lord. The basic message of monotheism is the same.
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Nicola
03-16-2006, 11:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by blackjubba
Nice try, but what you have written is only your opinion. It says what it says and it is very clear. Also, it was not meant for Christians, because Jesus clearly says in the NT that he has only come for who? The Lost House of Isreal. Also, if you read the verse it also clearly says 'every man'. The only way you could possibly prove to anyone that what was meant was Christians or those who accepted Jesus, is to give a clear definition of the original hebrew wording, which would contain a more definitive meaning. You can't do that, so we have to take the english at its word. Yet in still, you will reject the Qu'ran which does have the original writings and calls you to worship the ONE true Lord. The same Lord Jesus worshipped and has instructed you to worship. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but a fact is a fact.
It isn't just my opinion but the opinion of learnt Biblical scholars throughout the centaries...who have studied the word of God fully...If your going to study the letters in the book of Revelation to would need to know the History of these churches..you cannot just read my few paragraphs on this subject and think you know everything.

Jesus didn't just come just for Israel...yes they where first to be offered salvation and many Jews still do come to Jesus.

But this is what Jesus tells us in.

John 10: 1-17
Joh 10:1 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
Joh 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
Joh 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.
Joh 10:7 So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.
Joh 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:12 He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
Joh 10:13 He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
Joh 10:17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.


I hope you do some studying on these verses...because they are so very important..

This is why Christians will not follow Islam because it is like the strangers voice Jesus tells us about in these scriptures above..
It teaches us nothing of what Jesus did from:
and their are so many differences on all these subjects.
Scriptures
the Fatherhood of God
the Trinity
Sin
Salvations
the Death of Jesus
the deity of Jesus.

All these subjects are vast and they all differ greatly from Christianity and what Jesus told us.


You haven't proved any fact at all..
We Christians do worship only one God..and know him intimatly
Reply

E'jaazi
03-16-2006, 12:03 PM
[Jesus didn't just come just for Israel...yes they where first to be offered salvation and many Jews still do come to Jesus.]



How can you say that, when Jesus says in the Bible, "I have come only for the Lost House of Israel."
Reply

Nicola
03-16-2006, 12:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by blackjubba
By the way, I did, nor do I now, have an attitude. You are one of the most respectful Christians on the forum. I simply put down the truth. And when you do, being ignored is the usual response. The verse I quoted from Acts, was supposedly written by the Apostles, who wrote that Jesus was a man. This coincides with our beliefs. Peace be unto you!
I think you told me to try and twist Gods words....
I am not twisting anything...I am learning...I study with the Holy Spirit guiding me. I don't just make things up as I go along..
For Jesus tells us to ask and it shall be given.


Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


ἀνήρ
anēr
an'-ayr
A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.


Of course Jesus came down as a man...he was born has a baby like you and I.

What is your point exactly...no one is disputing that Jesus was made of skin and bone while on this earth...Now he sits on the right hand side of the Father.

No human could have paid the price of our sins...only Jesus because he was sinless unlike every other human...like the sinless unblemished oxen,sheep etc..God required for sin atonement..these things need to be pure.

So the parts of the NT and the OT that coincides with the Koran is true...and the rest is not...I see.

Please tell me and give me evidence other than the Koran and any Islamic sites..

When did all this tampering happen was it before or after Muhammad died?
Who changed the bible?
Where was it done? In which country?
What parts of the text were changed?
How was it done?
Why would anybody do this incredibly difficult thing?

then I can study your findings
thanks
Reply

Nicola
03-16-2006, 12:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by blackjubba
[Jesus didn't just come just for Israel...yes they where first to be offered salvation and many Jews still do come to Jesus.]



How can you say that, when Jesus says in the Bible, "I have come only for the Lost House of Israel."

Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd


Tell me why did Jesus tell a gentil woman ...Samaritan Woman who Jews did not associate with ...

John 4: 7:15
Joh 4:7 There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give me a drink."
Joh 4:8 (For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.)
Joh 4:9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?" (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.)
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water."
Joh 4:11 The woman said to him, "Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water?
Joh 4:12 Are you greater than our father Jacob? He gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock."
Joh 4:13 Jesus said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again,
Joh 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty forever. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." Joh 4:15 The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water, so that I will not be thirsty or have to come here to draw water."


Please explain to me why Jesus offered this woman non-Jew eternal life?

and also tell me ...who are Jesus' other sheep?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-16-2006, 10:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
I believe the bible yes...so what is written I accept...
I am not saying his behaviour was right...remember the days of Noah where really evil times...like what Jesus tells us...before he returns it will be like the days of Noah.


Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

I don't agree that the prophets where made to look bad, so has to make Jesus look a perfect person...firstly because the OT was written way before Jesus' time...Jesus even used to quote the OT offen...so it was not changed in anyway.
Do you think the Jews would change their Torah to help Jesus' message in anyway?
Yes Jesus was perfect in everyway and still is, it is impossible for Jesus to sin..but the rest of the prophets did sin..

Many Chrisitans do not take Jews as friends...and Chrisitans Muslims.
We should love everyone the same.

but what does God say about this..
Genesis
Chapter 12
1 The LORD said to Abram: "Go forth from the land of your kinsfolk and from your father's house to a land that I will show you".
2 "I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you".

Many Jews do believe in Jesus...Messanic Jews...though not enough :( yet..but they will understand one day when their veil has been removed who Jesus actually is.

We as Chrisitans look on Jesus as someone different to how Muslims see him, We believe he is God who came down in human form to save us, no one on earth could have done it, ony God because he is perfect...So Jesus for us is placed higher than any prophet.

Could you tell me please...from what I have heard and read, I understand that Muslims except the book of revelation as true...though Jesus gives us a different account of his return to the Islamic belief of his return..

Do Muslims just except the parts of the book of revelation that fits in with their belief from the Koran? and the rest is untrue according to Islam?

God Bless
My answer to all of this is the bible was changed, that's why there are so many versions. Not the same as translations either. The new testament though is not even the words of jesus, it's the words of his follows. Have you read the book of barnabus?
Reply

E'jaazi
03-17-2006, 12:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola

When did all this tampering happen was it before or after Muhammad died?
Who changed the bible?
Where was it done? In which country?
What parts of the text were changed?
How was it done?
Why would anybody do this incredibly difficult thing?

then I can study your findings
thanks
I thought that this was common knowledge. I'll look up the info for you, but the short answer to your question and in small part is 'The Nicene Council.' That is an historical fact and not a Islamic or Christian fact. I'll be back, God Willing, a little later.
Reply

E'jaazi
03-17-2006, 01:30 AM
Here is part 1 of what I am looking for. This factually refutes claims that the Bible that exist today was divinely inspired.



The Council of Nicaea and the Bible



There seem to be a number of legends about the First Council of Nicaea (325AD) in circulation on the internet, presented as fact. Some people seem to think that the council, which was the first council of all the Bishops of the Christian Church, either invented the New Testament, or edited it to remove references to reincarnation (or whatever) or burned large numbers of heretical works, or whatever.

Here's my first example, from usenet:

> In tracing the origin of the Bible, one is led to AD 325, when
> Constantine the Great called the First Council of Nicaea, composed of
> 300 religious leaders. Three centuries after Jesus lived, this council
> was given the task of separating divinely inspired writings from those
> of questionable origin.
> The actual compilation of the Bible was an incredibly complicated
> project that involved churchmen of many varying beliefs, in an
> atmosphere of dissension, jealousy, intolerance, persecution and
> bigotry.
> At this time, the question of the divinity of Jesus had split the
> church into two factions. Constantine offered to make the little-known
> Christian sect the official state religion if the Christians would
> settle their differences. Apparently, he didn't particularly care what
> they believed in as long as they agreed upon a belief. By compiling a
> book of sacred writings, Constantine thought that the book would give
> authority to the new church.
Here's a second version of the same idea:

> The references in the Christian religion of reincarnation, I am told,
> were removed by the Council of Nicea. (See Note A)
Here's a third version of this idea:

> Also, we do know that there were many books of supposed prophets
> floating around up until 312 CE when the Council of Nicea decided
> which books were scripture and which ones were burned. Thanks to
> the notorious habit of early Christian leaders of destroying
> books/scrolls, we may never know what doctrine existed before the
> Council of Nicea.

And another even more extreme example:

Author: Laulak Siddique <laulak@home.com>
Date: 2000/12/06
Forum: alt.religion.islam
In article <USiX5.110265$a7.1794610@news1.rdc1.il.home.com> ,
"Laulak Siddique" <laulak@home.com> wrote:

> Christianity consisted of many sects. By converting Constantine
> (The Great) the Paul heresy triumphed as the concept of trinity and the ending of the
> Mosaic law (which made swine flesh permissible) brought this version of
> Christianity very close to the Hellenic paganism that was practiced in Rome
> and Greece. At Nicea Constantine had 300 versions of the Bible burnt, thus
> legitimising and patronizing only the Paulic heresy.
And another (I'm not making any of these up):

Subject: Re: Snipper continues trying to shift the burden of proof to the atheists
From: "St. Clarence" <kschneid@students.uiuc.edu>
Date: 2001/01/07
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.agnosticism,alt.christnet.atheism, alt.christnet.calvinist ...

>Actually, legend has it that at the Council of Nicea, Constantine was
>unsure of what else to include as a holy scripture (which later the batch
>became the Bible). He threw the batch that he was to choose from onto a
>table. Those that remained on the table were in, those that fell off were
>out.
(See Note B)
A new version of the story (June 2001), which also includes a very confused version of the 'Secret Mark' theory of Morton Smith (not 480, obviously):

Dave Crisp <...> wrote in message news:<thi0ufl82rj0b3@corp.supernews.co.uk>...

> There are one or two places where there is evidence of which is 'right',
> the most famous example perhaps being the account of the raising of Lazarus
> which was removed from Mark on the instructions of the Council of Nicea as
> it hat overtones of a 'mystery cult'.

[source queried - answer:]
> If you could give me a couple of days, I could probably dig out the entire
> text, which was contained in a letter sent in 480 by the Bishop of
> Alexandria to one of his underlings; who was involved it trying to stamp
> out a group of 'Heretics' who were still using the original version.
And another:

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish, (etc)
Date: 1996/05/08
> The Roman Catholic Church created the canon of Christian
> scripture at the Council of Nicea, at the same time that they determined
> the doctrine of Trinity (through the assasination of a few of the voting
> bishops, by one vote). (See Note D)
These all sound individually quite confident and authoritative. But how do we find out if they are true? The answer must be to assemble all the primary data; any documents issued by the council, and any ancient accounts of its proceedings.

Documents Issued by the Council

The 318 bishops issued a creed (Symbolum), 20 canons, and a letter to the church of Alexandria. An English translation of these is available from http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3801.htm

Ancient Accounts of the Council

I admit that I was a little stumped as to what these might be. However I searched the internet. I also went through Quasten's Patrology looking for any references, and drew up a table of references from that.

From http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm :

The adhesion [to the creed] was general and enthusiastic. All the bishops save five declared themselves ready to subscribe to this formula, convince that it contained the ancient faith of the Apostolic Church. The opponents were soon reduced to two, Theonas of Marmarica and Secundus of Ptolemais, who were exiled and anathematized. Arius and his writings were also branded with anathema, his books were cast into the fire, and he was exiled to Illyria.

But the accounts of Eusebius, Socrates, Sozomen, Theodoret, and Rufinus may be considered as very important sources of historical information, as well as some data preserved by St. Athanasius, and a history of the Council of Nicaea written in Greek in the fifth century by Gelasius of Cyzicus.

(Leclerq, H)

Other information about the council is available from the church historians, which also detail action taken by the Emperor Constantine to enforce uniformity after the council. (The works of many of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers are available online at http://www.ccel.org/fathers2) I have these references for accounts of the council, all of which I have read (see Note C):

Theodoret, Historia Ecclesia, Book I, ch.6-13. This mentions that the definitions of Nicaea were drawn up with reference to Scripture; and the argument about whether phrase x or y was or was not in scripture formed the basis of much of the argument.
Socrates, Historia Ecclesia, Book I, ch.8. This mentions that Constantine exiled Arius and some of his supporters for refusing to submit to the decisions of the council. It also quotes an letter by Constantine ordering the destruction of all works composed by Arius on pain of death to any found holding them, and referring to a similar past order regarding the works of Porphyry.
Sozomen, Historia Ecclesia, Book 1, ch.21. This describes the results of the council. (Chapter 17 onwards describes the council). Constantine writes to all the cities ordering the destruction of the works of Arius and his followers, and the penalty of death for any who refused to destroy them. The letter is not quoted. There is also an anecdote where a Novatianist bishop is interviewed by the emperor. The bishop agrees to sign the creed but not to resume communion with the Catholics. Constantine tells him to get a ladder and ascend into heaven alone, then; but there is no mention of action against the Novatianists.
Eusebius, Vita Constantini, Book III, ch.6ff. This describes the council without mentioning Arius and concentrates on the harmonisation of the date of Easter. Later it gives the text of an edict by Constantine against heretics and schismatics, 'Novatians, Valentinians, Marcionites, Paulians, you who are called Cataphrygians', banning their meetings and confiscating their buildings. Eusebius goes on to say without quoting that a search was also decreed for their books in order to identify the heretics (although no details are given of what happened to the books).
Eusebius, On the Feast of Easter/De solemnitate paschalis/Peri\ th~j tou~ pa&sxa e(orth~j, 8 (PG. 24.701) Checked. According to Quasten 3 p.339 the work is not extant but a substantial fragment exists in the Catena on Luke by Nicetas of Heraclea. The text of this appears in Migne, 24, cols. 693-706, and so, in Latin translation, which I have. It does not seem to exist in English, but a kind gentleman has made us a translation from the Greek, which is now online. As can be seen, chapter 8 does mention the decision of the synod about Easter, but says nothing of interest to us. The text contains no other references.
Athanasius, De decretis synodis, A general discussion of some of the issues, rather than the acts of the council, and the arguments about whether the council exceeded what scripture says.
Athanasius, Ep. ad episcopos Africae, 5.ff. More about Arius at Nicaea and against the Council of Sirmium.
Epiphanius, Haereses or Panarion, 69, on Arius. Nothing more than we have from other sources. Since this text has only just been translated into English, it isn't in the online collection of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, so I've placed all the material online myself.
Philostorgius, HE I.7, 7a. Checked. This writer is only extant in fragments in Photius and the Suida. Apparently he was an Arian, born in 368. There is an English version; E. Walford, The Ecclesiastical History of Sozomen ... also the Ecclesiastical History of Philostorgius as epitomized by Photius,[ONLINE] London (1855). However it contains nothing new about the council. I have a copy of this and hope to place it online sometime. It would seem to derive from a single MS. The Nicaea portions are now online.
Rufinus, Historia Ecclesiastica 10,1-6 Checked. Only recently put into English: The Church History of Rufinus of Aquileia by Rufinus, Philip R., S.J. Amidon (Translator), September 1997, Oxford Univ Press; ISBN: 0195110315. Reviewed in Journal of Early Christian Studies 7.1 (1999) by C.H.Gowans. I have now seen this, and this also has no discussion of the canon of scripture. (It does contain the fascinating description of the destruction of the Temple of Serapis at Alexandria). I just wish the volume was cheaper. There is a useful bibliography. The Nicaea portion is now online.
Gelasius of Cyzicus, Historia Concilii Nicaeni. This does not seem to exist in English, but is in J.P.Migne, Patrologia Graeco-Latina, vol. 85, cols. 1185-1360, in Greek and Latin. There are three books; book I deals with the historical events leading to the accession of Constantine, book II with the council and its canons, and book III with letters issued by Constantine to various persons. The work seems to date from about 480-500, so is rather late, and some of it appears to be fictionalised. The debates are given verbatim, and, as the introduction notes, issues that contemporary writers explicitly deny are an issue (e.g. the Holy Spirit, as seen by the pneumatomachoi in the 5th century) are given as part of the heresies of the Arians. However it still makes no reference to decisions about books of the bible. The work is said to use the now lost text of Gelasius of Caesaria, which continued the HE of Eusbius.
NEW: Jerome, Biblical Preface to Judith. No English translation of this has been published, but it reads as follows:
"Among the Jews, the book of Judith is counted/considered [legitur] among the apocrypha; the basis for affirming those [apocryphal texts] which have come into dispute is deemed less than sufficient. Moreover, since it was written in the Chaldean [he means Old Aramaic] language, it is counted among the historical books. But the Nicene Council is considered to have counted this book among the number of sacred Scriptures, I have acquiesced to your [pl.] request (or should I say demand!): and, my other work set aside, from which I was vehemently restrained, I have given a single night's work (lucubratiuncula), translating according to sense rather than verbatim. I have cut back the most error-ridden of many codices: I was able to discover only one with coherent expression in Chaldean words, to be expressed in Latin. ..."
However, this only indicates that people at the Council had an idea that books might be considered scripture, or not. This is not different from the use of works in the fathers, discussing individual works rather than canon as a whole. It does not state that lists were drawn up, or necessarily that any debate on canon went on. But it does suggest some action by the council in discussing whether the Old Testament apocrypha were canonical. Or is Jerome merely confused here with the Council of Laodicea? If the Council did discuss books in general, why do none of the councils like Laodicea which include canon lists mention it? It is possible that the wide circulation of this preface is responsible for the idea, though.
Reply

sargon
03-17-2006, 10:39 AM
:sl:
Sorry Blackjubba but all those things are random pages on the internet. I wouldn't believe any of it. I don't even believe books anymore, I've been misguied by "books."

If you want to know, you gotta do real research. Like go to libraries that have the originals, get them translated. Maybe I'm just paranoid though...

I watched a good documentary called "Who wrote the Bible," which goes into fair detail about it, and shows the narrator going to Israel, Palestine, and the historic sites of these revelations! It was really good, but I can't remember all the facts sorry :x
:w:
Reply

E'jaazi
03-17-2006, 10:47 AM
They may be random pages, but you can go to the library and read it for yourself. A fact is a fact. That is why they got rid of the original writings - so that you wouldn't know for sure what was what. That's is also why they won't release the translation on the Dead Sea Scrolls. They don't want you to know what they really say. Why would they keep that from the world? Think about it!
Reply

sargon
03-17-2006, 11:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by blackjubba
They may be random pages, but you can go to the library and read it for yourself. A fact is a fact. That is why they got rid of the original writings - so that you wouldn't know for sure what was what. That's is also why they won't release the translation on the Dead Sea Scrolls. They don't want you to know what they really say. Why would they keep that from the world? Think about it!
:sl:
That's exactly my point! I can only think about it I can't read it! :grumbling :offended: :hiding:

That's what Mohommed was talkin about brother, falsehood is spreading faster and faster. I don't think it's at the point yet where it could be considered a sign, but it's getting there.

To me it's not a fact, but conjecture base on my faith in Islam. There could be anything in those dead sea scrolls. I used to believe they were about how we all manifested our own reality (pantheism), but then I was taught Islam and it changed my life for the better. Now I think it's probably something very similar to Islam, so they don't want anyone knowing.

See? It's all conjecture... Ive always wanted to see those scrolls!!!

It makes me so mad, these past 100 years are a shame to humanity. These past 200 I should say. So much genocide, war, greed, etc... We can't use the excuses of being un-developed or an old civilization. We're just as bad as the Romans and old barbaric tribes, what is so different? It's like we're barbaric in a modern way so no one notices :rant: :offended: :grumbling .

Depleted Uraniam shells in Iraq....
Arabians used to bury babies...

I don't see too much of a difference.

Back on Topic:
What would it take to take a look at the dead sea scrolls? Who has them?
:w:
Reply

o_ahmad
08-10-2010, 12:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
I think you told me to try and twist Gods words....
I am not twisting anything...I am learning...I study with the Holy Spirit guiding me. I don't just make things up as I go along..
For Jesus tells us to ask and it shall be given.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

ἀνήρ
anēr
an'-ayr
A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.

Of course Jesus came down as a man...he was born has a baby like you and I.
What is your point exactly...no one is disputing that Jesus was made of skin and bone while on this earth...Now he sits on the right hand side of the Father.

If Jesus ws God and man, there is a problem because God is not a man (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, Job 9:32, Hosa 11:9). If Jesus was God on Earth, he would have to have this attribute, which evidently he didn't have.

format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
No human could have paid the price of our sins...only Jesus because he was sinless unlike every other human...like the sinless unblemished oxen,sheep etc..God required for sin atonement..these things need to be pure..
In regards to major sins he was sinless, but in minor sins he was not sinless. The following sins he did according to...

1) He called the Gentiles dogs and pigs (Mark 7:27, Matthew 7:6, Matthew 15:26). This bad language is condemned according to: Proverbs 4:24, Colossians 3:8, Colossians 4:6, etc which proves he was not 100% sinless.

2) He spoke rudly to his mother (John 2:4, John 19:26). The same word "woman" he used for a prostitute: John 8:10.

3) He spoke rudly to his own people: Matthew 23:33, Matthew 12:34, Matthew 16:23.

4) He killed an innocent tree (Matthew 21:19).

5) He drove out people & innocent animals with a whip (John 2:15).

6) He drowned 2000 pigs to death (Mark 5:13).

7) The law says an adulterer must be stoned to death (Leviticus 20:10) yet Jesus let an adulterer free (John 8:11) which according to Matthew 5:19-20 makes him a hypocrite.

8) Baptism washes away sins (Acts 22:16) and Jesus was baptized (Mark 1:9) which means he had his sins washed away.

9) There is not a righteous man on earth that can ever go without sinning (Ecclesiastes 7:20) which means even Jesus was not 100% sinless.

Also, if God required the atonement of all sins, that means God was needy, which contradicts Acts 17:24-25.


format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
Please tell me and give me evidence other than the Koran and any Islamic sites..

When did all this tampering happen was it before or after Muhammad died?
Who changed the bible?
Where was it done? In which country?
What parts of the text were changed?
How was it done?
Why would anybody do this incredibly difficult thing?
1) Majority of it occured before Muhammad died, but some of it occured after Muhammad died. For example, deliberate changes were made in later manuscripts of Gospels to suit theological concepts. Accidental changes were made also, but these were undetected amongst the entire Christian community, under the discovery of earlier manuscripts. A change made after Muhammad's death is the addition of 1 John 5:7 in 4 very late manuscripts as a varient reading in the margin and 3 very late manuscripts in the text (Metzger, A Textual Commentary On The Greek New Testament, Pg. 647-648).

2) No-one knows who changed what in the Bible. It was anoynmous scribes.

3) Various countries like: Spain, Palestine, Syria.

4) Words, verses, letters, etc.

5) By copying from manuscripts 1 letter, 1 word, 1 sentence, 1 verse and chapter at a time by hand, because printing wasn't around until after majority of the changes. Scribes intentionally changed certain verses to suit theological concepts by hand, while many other changes were accidental. Scribes also tried to change accidental mistakes for it to be the original wording.

6) The intentional changes were done probably to gain more converts.

For non-Muslim sources on the 6 points I said, refer to works of: Bruce Metzger, Bart Ehrman, F.F. Bruce, etc.
Reply

gmcbroom
01-06-2011, 03:05 AM
iThe council of Nicea was indeed an important council. It helped standard the faith. The Catholic church has had its share of heresies over the years.
Arianism is is the heresy that states The Arian concept of Christ is that the Son of God did not always exist, but was created by—and is therefore distinct from and inferior to—God the Father. This belief is grounded in John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."per wikipedia.
This conflicts with the trinitarian belief so thats why they held the Nicean council to solidify the trinitarian belief. This happened early in the third century.
It wasn't the only heresy to hit the Church many more followed. Yet the Catholic Church remains.

Come to think of it Arianism fits in with the Moslem view of Jesus doesn't it? I remember reading somewhere that Mohammed (Forgive me if I mispelled his name) consulted with an Arian priest to discover if it was really an Angel he was speaking with. If this indeed true that would explain why both share similar views of Jesus.
Peace be with you.
Reply

Ramadhan
01-06-2011, 04:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
Come to think of it Arianism fits in with the Moslem view of Jesus doesn't it? I remember reading somewhere that Mohammed (Forgive me if I mispelled his name) consulted with an Arian priest to discover if it was really an Angel he was speaking with. If this indeed true that would explain why both share similar views of Jesus.
Peace be with you.

Sources please.

Otherwise i will report you for slander.

By the way, this is how you should write the name of the prophet: Muhammad PBUH
PBUH is acronym for peace be upon him, we write the names of ALL prophets followed by PBUH
Reply

Hiroshi
01-06-2011, 07:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Sources please.

Otherwise i will report you for slander.
Sorry to but in. I found this link:

http://www.whymuhammad.com/en/contents.aspx?aid=5782

which says:

One of the leading figures who initiated the campaign of denigration against Prophet Muhammad was John of Damascus (d. 750 AD), a Christian priest. In the last sections of his book, De haeresibus, John discusses Prophet Muhammad and sees him, just like those Orientalists who followed him throughout the entire Middle Ages did, as a "heretic" or a "fake prophet" who deceived the people around him by using Christian sources with the help of an Arian priest, rather than the prophet of a new religion. Moreover, Prophet Muhammad's marriages and the wars he fought are discussed in this book in a biased way; these baseless criticisms later became the (sole) basis of other Orientalists who for the most part simply repeated what John had said before them. In fact, this still continues today.


So the book by this John of Damascus may be the source.
Reply

Ramadhan
01-06-2011, 09:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
So the book by this John of Damascus may be the source.
Then I want gmcbroom to come here and give evidence and proof about the Arian priest that he said was helping prophet Muhammad SAW.
if he cannot do that, then he needs to retract his admission.
Reply

almahdali
01-09-2011, 09:24 AM
I believe Trinity is an interpretation n the doctrine about the position of God, the son, and the holy spirit by church fathers. I read Old Testament but I can not find any clear mention about Holy Trinity or it is written as God has revealed this "Holy Trinity" to any prophets, well for Christian prophets like the apostles, they are in the level of sages for me or I guess according to Kabbalistic view. I am not Jew anyway but I am familiar with Judaism.
Reply

gmcbroom
01-11-2011, 12:33 AM
(De haeresibus, by John of Damascus 750A.D.) Now true I haven't read it this is just a source from the internet. Yet, now you know. I don't mean it to be inflammtory its just what I found. Is it here say? Possibly, it clearly won't be a popular read. I'll see if I can find more. Either way your are free to reject it or accept it. Yours in Christ.
gmcbroom
Reply

gmcbroom
01-11-2011, 01:10 AM
The Fount of Wisdom, under concerning heresies, by John of Damascus, touches on it. You don't have to take my word for it. Read it. As for further sources regrettably this is the best I can do. I found it from Wikipedia which of course can be changed so feel free to reject it. Peace be with you.
gmcbroom
Reply

Ramadhan
01-11-2011, 08:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
The Fount of Wisdom, under concerning heresies, by John of Damascus, touches on it. You don't have to take my word for it. Read it.
I have read bits and pieces about John of damascus and I have read so many refutations which destroy his allegations.

format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
As for further sources regrettably this is the best I can do. I found it from Wikipedia which of course can be changed so feel free to reject it. Peace be with you.
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
Either way your are free to reject it or accept it.
Of course I reject it, based on obvious reasons.
So, the burden is on you (this is islamic board, btw) to elaborate and prove why John of Damascus is right (or why you think he is right).
Bring it on.
Otherwise, you are just slandering prophet SAW.

format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
Now true I haven't read it this is just a source from the internet
So, you believe that ONE source in the internet is source of the truth?

let me tell you, if you google "santa clause is real", you will get millions of hits, does this mean you also believe that santa clause is real?

Ooh wait... of course you believe he is real, you believe that a man is god after all.
Reply

gmcbroom
01-11-2011, 09:17 PM
I can't speak for santa clause. But there really was a Saint Nicolas also known as Nikolaos of Myra, a Greek Bishop famed for his intercessions. Believe it or not. :)
Now Naidamar, you are right to chastize me I deserved that for discussing what I read on the internet. However, be advised that I'm giving one Catholic person's perspective. For the record I'm aware that muslim's don't view Jesus in the same light christians do. This is just one of our differences. Your right that I'm on an Islamic website and thus a guest. I hope not to offend anyone. I'm simply giving my perspective on issues as a Christian in an area of the forum set up for comparative religions. As for John of Damascus; he was a leader of the early church who battled heresies during that time. The issue of Arianism is an issue he would be familiar with. Is it easy to hear? Not if you believe otherwise. Still, we don't have to agree.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom
Reply

Ramadhan
01-11-2011, 11:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
ow Naidamar, you are right to chastize me I deserved that for discussing what I read on the internet. However, be advised that I'm giving one Catholic person's perspective. For the record I'm aware that muslim's don't view Jesus in the same light christians do. This is just one of our differences. Your right that I'm on an Islamic website and thus a guest. I hope not to offend anyone. I'm simply giving my perspective on issues as a Christian in an area of the forum set up for comparative religions. As for John of Damascus; he was a leader of the early church who battled heresies during that time. The issue of Arianism is an issue he would be familiar with. Is it easy to hear? Not if you believe otherwise. Still, we don't have to agree.
This is a cop out.

You came here and charged that prophet Muhammad SAW received knowledge from an arian priest, and then instead of giving authentic evidence/proofs/etc, you are telling us that "oh well, that's what I believe and you guys can suck it if you don't".
That actually makes you a TROLL.

This is AT LEAST a discussion forum (I give you a pass for not recognizing it an Islamic one), you just cannot come here, trash our prophet without giving it weight (logic, authentic facts/evidence, etc). You need to DISCUSS, especially if you throw such a grave accusation against the prophet SAW.
This would be like me going to a christian forum, telling the christian audience that jesus had the help of a fat bearded guy named santa clause which give presents to kids all over the world riding a flying sleigh every time jesus throws a fake birthday party, and if the christian members don't believe it, they can suck it too.

ooh wait... christians actually believe it.
sigh... I've run out on fairy tales to describe christian belief.
Reply

gmcbroom
01-12-2011, 02:48 AM
Naidamar, I'll explain why I believe what John of Damascus wrote. One he was a Syrian monk and priest who was a Doctor of the Church. Now why would I believe him? As a catholic I tend to put some credence to what the Doctors of the church have to say. Two when you add the whole apostolic succession and being guided by the Holy Spirit, to him as he was a priest, I tend to take what he writes seriously. Now since your not catholic you don't have too. I'm aware it may apear offensive and for that i'm truly sorry, it was not my intent to offend anyone.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom
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Ramadhan
01-12-2011, 03:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
Naidamar, I'll explain why I believe what John of Damascus wrote. One he was a Syrian monk and priest who was a Doctor of the Church. Now why would I believe him? As a catholic I tend to put some credence to what the Doctors of the church have to say. Two when you add the whole apostolic succession and being guided by the Holy Spirit, to him as he was a priest, I tend to take what he writes seriously. Now since your not catholic you don't have too. I'm aware it may apear offensive and for that i'm truly sorry, it was not my intent to offend anyone.
So you believe in everything john of damascus said/wrote just because he was a catholic priest?
so your argument is that all monks and priests are infallible because they are all guided by holy spirit?
ok, just confirming here, your confession is what I wanted to hear.

I am taking your words at face value (unless, you are a two-faced or three-faced one)

so, those priests that sexually molested LITTLE BOYS were guided by holy spirit?

so, those successions of popes in the dark ages and middle ages who were so corrupt and murderous who had incestuous sex, orgies, ordering killings of their opponents were guided by the holy spirit?

nice.
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gmcbroom
01-12-2011, 08:40 PM
Naidamar,
I'm actually a little speechless by the tone of your response. Clarily, I have offended you and for that I am deeply sorry. Actually, only the Pope is infallible and even that is only confined to theological areas such as Doctrine and Dogma. Now priests are guided by the Holy Spirit as are all christians if they listen. The priest just happens to have Apostolic succession on his side and had first hand exposure to what was ocurring around him battling Arianism and other heresies of the church.
There is no doubt that there are and were corrupt individuals in Catholism just as there are in all religions. However, and this took me awhile to accept as well, just because there are a few bad people in the Church doesn't mean the whole Church is bad. In fact it can strengthen ones faith by accepting this. Confused. Simple, if you let one man or group of men stand between you and your faith then how strong is your faith to begin with. God comes first, not the people you place in the way. Trust me in this I walked away from Christianity for years due to the misbehavior of the minister in my family church. However, it was through my twin brothers prayers (over 20 years worth) and my research into Catholism that brought me back to christianity. I realize the same can't be said of everyone.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom
Reply

Ramadhan
01-14-2011, 04:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
Naidamar,
I'm actually a little speechless by the tone of your response. Clarily, I have offended you and for that I am deeply sorry.
don't kid yourself. it is apparent that you are not happy that I am exposing the good work that holy spirit has done on wondrous paedophile priests and evil popes.

want to know a little bit about your own popes and priests and what they are doing on the side?
type "paedophile priests" and "evil popes"

you said you believe what john of damascus wrote simply because he was a priest and because priests are protected by holy spirit. I am only showing you that holy spirit also inspired priests to do other things than writing books, such as molesting little boys or having sex with their own sisters for example.
I am destroying your argument that priests are trustworthy.

Further, you have not mentioned why you believe prophet Muhammad SAW had knowledge other than that john of damascus wrote so.

I challenge you to bring john of damscus argument here, and you have been avoiding ever since.
Reply

selsebil
01-14-2011, 12:15 PM
Assalaam Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,
Almighty God is above having mother and father, relatives or wife.Quran denies the divinity of those who have offspring and parents and equals; and it is to show that they are not worthy of being worshipped.Almighty God is above all relations which suggest giving birth and being born. He is exempt from having any partners, helpers, or fellows. His relations with all beings are those of Creator. He creates through His pre-eternal will with the command of “Be!,” and it is. He is far beyond having any relation which is contrary to perfection, or is compelling, necessitating, or involuntary.Almighty God is pre-eternal and post-eternal, He is the First and the Last. Neither in His essence, nor in His attributes, nor in His actions, has He in any way any equal, peer, like, or match, or anything similar, resembling, or analogous to Him. Only, in His acts, there may be comparisons expressing similarity.
Reply

gmcbroom
01-14-2011, 10:06 PM
Naidamar,
I'm actually trying to find a copy of that book. If there is an english translation I'll post the passages here if it's allowable per site guidelines. If there isn't then I'll see about getting it translated with my own funds no less and then post the passage here.
As for me not liking what your saying about the priests and bishops who have betrayed their vows and molested children or commited other vile acts. Truth be told, I don't care one way or the other. They are solely responsible for their actions and will be and are accountable to God on the Day of Judgement. But again, I won't condemn my Christian Faith because of the actions of a few whether that's a few hundred or even thousands. Remember, there are billions of Christians past and present and all are alive in Christ through baptism.

So I'll go ahead and ask. Moderators, if I find the information I'm seeking, do I have your permission to post it here. It'll only be used to show the early Catholic position and strictly on this Comparative religions sub forum. It may contain inflammatory language opposing the Islamic view. If I post this here strictly as a historical reference will I be sanctioned by this site or banned?
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

PS- Moderators, I'll be on holiday the next few days so I won't be able to respond. Can you PM your response as well as post it here?
Reply

Ramadhan
01-14-2011, 10:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
But again, I won't condemn my Christian Faith because of the actions of a few whether that's a few hundred or even thousands. Remember, there are billions of Christians past and present and all are alive in Christ through baptism.
All i did was destroying your argument that priests/doctor in church/popes/etc is trustworthy because they are inspired and protected by holy spirit.
Not only that, even your bible, written by unknown authors who you say are protected by holy spirit, are full of errors and contradictions.

It shows either this holy spirit is actually evil spirit, or the whole holy spirit business is a fantasy concocted by few scribes.
Reply

gmcbroom
01-18-2011, 02:09 AM
Naidamar, you didn't destroy my argument or my faith for that matter. You just show that you don't understand the Bible or Sacred Tradition thats all. As your a muslim thats no surprise since your faith rejects Christianity, viewing it as corrupted. It would have to in order to claim to be its successor. Just as I'm sure Bahaism does the same with Islam.

Peace be with you
gmcbroom
Reply

جوري
01-18-2011, 02:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
ou just show that you don't understand the Bible or Sacred Tradition thats all.

shouldn't god make the creed that he wants for humanity easy to be understood by paupers and kings alike? Shouldn't God safeguard it from error? Why do you need a group of theologians to decipher all that jargon and still come up so empty.. Islam is a successor to nothing. Islam is the religion that has always been. Only people render god one of a few or turn him into an ineffectual dying mortal!

all the best
Reply

Ramadhan
01-18-2011, 02:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
Naidamar, you didn't destroy my argument or my faith for that matter. You just show that you don't understand the Bible or Sacred Tradition thats all. As your a muslim thats no surprise since your faith rejects Christianity, viewing it as corrupted. It would have to in order to claim to be its successor. Just as I'm sure Bahaism does the same with Islam.

Actually i did.
You think john of damascus is right just because he was a priest, and a priest, you argued, is insprired and protected by holy spirit.

Meanwhile, I have shown you that is false, because lines of popes (representatives of god, catholics beleive) have done actions so evil that either holy spirit concept is false or that priests are not inspired by holy spirits.

Need I say more about paedophile priests, murderous rwandan nuns and priests, etc?

Unless, you are correct, it is catholic sacred tradition that I don't understand.
Reply

gmcbroom
01-18-2011, 03:14 AM
Naidamar,
It is sacred tradition that you don't understand. That's no fault of your own as your just following the tenets of your faith. As I am following the tenets of mine.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom
Reply

Ramadhan
01-18-2011, 03:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
It is sacred tradition that you don't understand. That's no fault of your own as your just following the tenets of your faith. As I am following the tenets of mine.
so paedophilia, murdering innocents, incestuous relationships is catholic sacred tradition?

Glad I'm learning something new today.
Reply

gmcbroom
01-18-2011, 08:39 AM
Naidamar,
Actually those actions are not Sacred Tradition. Those are the actions of men who have abused their authority and such men have existed throughout time in all walks of life. Regrettably, some of those men were priests and bishops. However I won't condemn the faith due to the actions of a few. Now, I know you don't share that opinion. You are of course entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom
Peace be with you
gmcbroom
Reply

Ramadhan
01-18-2011, 08:50 AM
I understand that priests and popes are mere human.
You are the one who said that priests and popes are god's representatives, inspired and protected by holy spirit. And based on this premise, you claimed that John of Damascus must have been trustworthy because he was a priest inspired by holy spirit when he accused prophet Muhammad SAW as receiving knowledge from arian priests.

Now, you keep saying the same thing over and over again without actually tackle my argument, and you have not also addressed the accusations made by john of damascus.
repeatedly saying things over and over without evidence does not make it true.
Reply

gmcbroom
01-18-2011, 08:57 AM
Naidamar,
Nor does it make it false. It just means until I get my hands on that book I won't argue further on that issue. I still stand by what I wrote earlier though it's understandable why you disagree with it.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom
Reply

Ramadhan
01-18-2011, 09:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom

Naidamar,
Nor does it make it false. It just means until I get my hands on that book I won't argue further on that issue. I still stand by what I wrote earlier though it's understandable why you disagree with it.

take your time, it should not be too difficult.
I hope you are not one of those who have belief without evidence, logic and reason to back it up.

By the way, you were the one who kept bringing up this debate without actually tackling the problem of holy spirit-inspired priests.
Reply

gmcbroom
01-18-2011, 07:26 PM
Naidamar,
I am indeed. Uhh..... worldly reason and faith are polar opposites Naidamar. This is part of the reason why I couldn't be a muslim. Your religion is too worldly. I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up by that atheist who posts here what's his name?.....Trumble?

Oh and I ordered a book on John of Damascus. Its a selection of his works so the reference mentioned earlier may be in there. I'll let you know when I find it.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom
Reply

Ramadhan
01-18-2011, 09:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
I am indeed. Uhh..... worldly reason and faith are polar opposites Naidamar.
ah, I am glad you are finally admitting that your faith in human as god does not have anything to do at all with your brain.
Now I understand why christians easily have faith in santa claus, flyiing reindeer, easter bunny, 25 december, christmas tree, evil popes, paedophile priests, money-spinning evangelists, etc etc.


format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
This is part of the reason why I couldn't be a muslim. Your religion is too worldly. I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up by that atheist who posts here what's his name?.....Trumble?
what do you mean Islam is too worldly?
this is new to me, and maybe even too atheists too, which is why they never brought it up.

Can you please elaborate, or are you just talking out of faith again (that is, disconnecting your brain from everything else in your body)?


format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
Oh and I ordered a book on John of Damascus. Its a selection of his works so the reference mentioned earlier may be in there. I'll let you know when I find it.

Great. Can't wait that we can finally discuss something, rather than your spewing your faith and then refusing to discuss it.
Reply

gmcbroom
01-21-2011, 01:26 AM
Naidamar,
The book arrived today. It is called The Fathers Of The Church vol.37 St. John Of Damascus Writings. Translated by Frederic H. Chase,Jr. Catholic University of America Press. Washington, DC

Regrettably, I can't post it. I reviewed the rules before writing this. This site is meant to promote Islam. If I post what I just read in the book it would not promote Islam. It would give his opinion true. However, it also would back it up with evidence which only you as muslims could see as it concerns a faint carving of Aphrodite still visible at that time on the Ka'ba stone or Khabar. Forgive me if i'm wrong but only muslims are allowed there by law so only you can see it.

The section in the book is called on Heresies and the title referencing Islam is called the Ishamaelites and it starts on page 153-160. That's significant because it the other heresies listed run 1 to 2 pages at most so the fact that he devotes so many pages to it shows how much he talks on the subject.

Now in defense of Islam your right there were a lot of heresies he had to combat in his day. He lists over 103 different heresies Those are just in his time, imagine the heresies around now.

However, as a Catholic I would be remiss if I didn't learn all I could about The Church, everything. What I read just on this issue alone hasn't shaken my faith in Catholism.

Now as to my earlier remark about Islam being worldly I stand by that. Although all I have to point to it is the Islamic conquest and reference Tipu The Islamist who forcibally converted Mangalorean Catholics at Seringapatam according to the Bakur Manuscript he is credited with saying," All Musalmans should unite and consider, the annihilation of the Infidels as their sacred duty, labor to the utmost of their power, to accomplish that subject.

This is why the Indians invited the British to drive out the phantoms with swords who were causing trouble thoughout India. There is more but I trust I've made my point.

I apologize for writing this and do understand why I may be sanctioned or banned because of it. If I am banned Woodrow, know that it's been an honor coming here to this forum. I've learned alot about my own faith and a bit about yours. I didn't expect that.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom
Reply

Ramadhan
01-21-2011, 01:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
The book arrived today. It is called The Fathers Of The Church vol.37 St. John Of Damascus Writings. Translated by Frederic H. Chase,Jr. Catholic University of America Press. Washington, DC

Regrettably, I can't post it. I reviewed the rules before writing this. This site is meant to promote Islam. If I post what I just read in the book it would not promote Islam. It would give his opinion true. However, it also would back it up with evidence which only you as muslims could see as it concerns a faint carving of Aphrodite still visible at that time on the Ka'ba stone or Khabar. Forgive me if i'm wrong but only muslims are allowed there by law so only you can see it.

The section in the book is called on Heresies and the title referencing Islam is called the Ishamaelites and it starts on page 153-160. That's significant because it the other heresies listed run 1 to 2 pages at most so the fact that he devotes so many pages to it shows how much he talks on the subject.

Now in defense of Islam your right there were a lot of heresies he had to combat in his day. He lists over 103 different heresies Those are just in his time, imagine the heresies around now.

However, as a Catholic I would be remiss if I didn't learn all I could about The Church, everything. What I read just on this issue alone hasn't shaken my faith in Catholism.

A lot of words there, but NONE is related to support your argument why you think John of damascus is correct when he accused the prophet SAW as being given knowledge by arian priest.

I am waiting.

format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
Now as to my earlier remark about Islam being worldly I stand by that. Although all I have to point to it is the Islamic conquest and reference Tipu The Islamist who forcibally converted Mangalorean Catholics at Seringapatam according to the Bakur Manuscript he is credited with saying," All Musalmans should unite and consider, the annihilation of the Infidels as their sacred duty, labor to the utmost of their power, to accomplish that subject.

This is why the Indians invited the British to drive out the phantoms with swords who were causing trouble thoughout India. There is more but I trust I've made my point.

I apologize for writing this and do understand why I may be sanctioned or banned because of it. If I am banned Woodrow, know that it's been an honor coming here to this forum. I've learned alot about my own faith and a bit about yours. I didn't expect that.
This is also another round of words that are not related in any way to your charging that Islam is worldly.

You know, based on my observation from interactions with christians on forums and in real life, they do have a lot of words. I guess they have to, because they have no substance (truth) to back up anything they say.
Reply

gmcbroom
01-21-2011, 02:06 AM
Naidamar,
That is understandably your opinion. You'll understand why I disagree.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom
Reply

MustafaMc
01-21-2011, 03:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
However, as a Catholic I would be remiss if I didn't learn all I could about The Church, everything. What I read just on this issue alone hasn't shaken my faith in Catholism.
If that is truly the case, then I have the perfect book for you, "Lost Christianities' by Bart Ehrman http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Christian.../dp/0195141830 . I am over half way through the book and am now reading about the victory of the proto-orthodox over the various 'heretical' groups around during the early years of the Christian faith.
Reply

Ramadhan
01-21-2011, 04:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
That is understandably your opinion. You'll understand why I disagree.
You keep saying you disagree without providing as much reasons, let alone evidence, why.
For example:

1. you believe prophet Muhammad SAW received knowledge from arian priest just because john of damascus said so and john of damascus couldnt be in error because priests are guided by holy spirit.
And when I said that the argument that priests are guided by holy spirit is false because, unless the holy spirit is also evil spirit, priests have done evil things and have been much in error and thus cannot be possibly guided by holy spirit, you replied that it is a matter of faith. umm.. ok.

2. When I asked where's your john of damascus' arguments/evidence, you came back with such fantasy drivels as faint picture of aphrodite on kabah, heresies, etc which are in itself can be best described as eliciting the response "huh??", not to mention that the first one is baseless and have nothing to do at all with your fantasy that prophet Muhammad SAW receiving knowledge from arian priests.

So, again, where's your evidence that prophet Muhammad SAW received knowledge from arian priest?
bring it on.

3. When I asked you to elaborate why you think Islam is worldly, you came up with fantasy story, and not based at all on any historical evidence, about how the indians invited the brits to drive out muslims from India. LOL. Even when the story is a fantasy, it does not even address why Islam is worldly.
No wonder you also believe in 3-in-god and easter bunnies when you can come up with such fantasy.

Just an advice:
God give you brains and intelligence. Use it.
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