Did Jesus (p) Deny Being God?

[abdul Majid]

Dear brothers and sisters,

If I am standing in front of the IBM headquarters building, and a fellow employee unknowingly asked me, "Is this your building, do you own this building?",

and then I replied, "This building is NOT MY OWN, but it belongs to the ONE WHO EMPLOYS ME",

this would clarify to the person asking that I AM NOT THE OWNER, I am just one of the workers. I do not own the building (Universe), the one I work for owns it.

Did Jesus (p) make such statements regarding his status, the words, the will and the power he used?

WORDS
"Jesus answered them and said, 'My doctrine is not mine, but His Who sent me.'" [John 7:16]

"He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's Who sent me." [John 14:24]

"For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father Who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." [John 12:49]

WILL
"Jesus said to them, 'My food is to do the will of Him Who sent me, and to accomplish His work.'" [John 4:34]

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him Who sent me." [John 6:38]

"...saying, 'Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from me; nevertheless not my will, but Yours, be done.'" [Luke 22:42]

POWER
"I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is righteous, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the Father Who sent me." [John 5:30]

"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one Who sent him." [John 13:16]

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you'. If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I" [John 14:28]

"Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but He sent me.'" [John 8:42]

"To sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father." [Matthew 20:23]

KNOWLEDGE
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." [Mark 13:32]

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only." [Matthew 24:36]

"So Jesus answered them, 'My teaching is not mine, but His Who sent me.'" [John 7:16]

STATUS
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven." [Matthew 7:21]

"And the Father Himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape." [John 5:37]

"And Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.'" [Mark 10:18]

"And I do not seek my own glory; there is One Who seeks and judges." [John 8:50]

Some Christians (though not all) claim that Jesus (p) implied that he was God from the above verses - we see clearly that Jesus (p) denied being God. The God of Abraham in the Old Testament stated "I am God" over 200 times, yet (oddly) Jesus (p) never uttered those three words once in the Gospel. So we see from the many verses above that the House did not belong to Jesus (p), it belonged to the One Who sent him.

[Maimunah]

mashaallah bro

[Mohsin]

Mashallah bro i can't wait for the christians to reply to this, good stuff!

[abdul Majid]

:happy:

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[Nicola]

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."
Joh 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?"
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."

Even the Jews found it easier enough to understand who Jesus was claming to be.

[abdul Majid]

lol i havent put in there anything you have quoted!!

why does it say quote, if none of what you put in there is what i put up there??

jesus(p) said:
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you'. If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I" [John 14:28]

and theres more read what i put up there

[abdul Majid]

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him Who sent me." [John 6:38]

[Muslim Knight]

Even the Jews found it easier enough to understand who Jesus was claming to be.

Looking from the context one can easily understand that Jesus meant he and God was one in purpose. What was this purpose? To bring the children of Israel in submission & repentance to God. God send messengers throughout the history of men to this purpose. One of this messenger was Jesus (pbuh).

God sent messengers to bring men into submission to Him and the one being sent is the one who accomplishes this purpose, wouldn't it be equal to say God and His messenger share the same purpose? This was explained in detail by late Sheikh Ahmed Deedat in his debates.

The Jews began to stone him because they thought he was claiming to be god. They try to incriminate him with the sin of professing to be God, that is why they accuse him of blasphemy. They try to appear confused while knowing Christ was sent as the Messiah, not God!

You Christians call Jews the Christ-killers and yet you agree with what they say about him. What an irony!

[The Architect]

Okay, Abdul Majid, your evidence has shown that Jesus claimed He was not God. However, Nicola here (who was quoting those verses from the Bible, thus the reason she used the the quote tags), has shown evidence that Jesus implied that He was God.

It is my belief that He was just really humble, and was just saying that He wasn't God, when He really was.

[abdul Majid]

It is my belief that He was just really humble, and was just saying that He wasn't God, when He really was.

That doesnt make sense, thats like putting words in somebodys mouth...

peace

[The Architect]

That doesnt make sense, thats like putting words in somebodys mouth...

peace

What do you mean when you say "putting words in somebodys mouth..."?

Please elaborate.

[abdul Majid]

like he didnt say that for himself i mean

[mahdisoldier19]

Okay, Abdul Majid, your evidence has shown that Jesus claimed He was not God. However, Nicola here (who was quoting those verses from the Bible, thus the reason she used the the quote tags), has shown evidence that Jesus implied that He was God.

It is my belief that He was just really humble, and was just saying that He wasn't God, when He really was.

Then that is your belief and your error.

[Maimunah]

Then that is your belief and your error.

;D mashaallah that is correct

[PrIM3]

well actually Jesus vaguely said He was God and strongly said that He was Lord.

these verses from John chapter 8 shows Jesus calling Himself God vaguely

verse 23-24 --- You are from below, I am from above, you are of this world: I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM, you will indeed die in your sins.

then later in verse 28

So Jesus said," When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

then in verse 58

I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM.

He uses the same term that YAHWEH uses in Exodus 3:14 I AM WHO I AM

calling Himself Lord--- John 13:13

You call me Teacher and Lord, and rightly so, for that is what I am.


and Ps...

Christians who Live by Faith follow Christ.. according to Jesus Himself in John 14:12 Anyone who lives by Faith will do what I have been doing.

[abdul Majid]

lol all that is saying is I AM ?? nothing after it, could be i am prophet, i am anything for that matter....and you have taking these verses from john!!

[PrIM3]

lol all that is saying is I AM ?? nothing after it, could be i am prophet, i am anything for that matter....and you have taking these verses from john!!

He uses the same term that YAHWEH uses in Exodus 3:14 I AM WHO I AM

[abdul Majid]

prime can i ask you, what is christian faith mainly based on? like the bottom line basiclly?

[Ahmad]

Bismillah

Me and many other brothers and sisters debate on this stuff endlessly and they (Christians) find someway to prove the opposite by citing things such as: Jesus (peace be upon him) said: ' I am' or 'I and the Father are one' or they cite verses from the OT such as the 'We' and verse 1 in John.

I think that we must debate on the foundation of their faith. This 'Original Sin' doctrine. We disprove that, than the mission that they say Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent to fulfill, will backfire and all of their arguments will remain futile.

[Ahmad]

prime can i ask you, what is christian faith mainly based on? like the bottom line basiclly?

As a Former Christian. Christianity evolves around the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus (peace be upon him). However, the need for such, is because of the sin of our first parents Adaam and Huwa (peace be upon them both). The Christians say that their sin had a perpetual effect on each suceeding generation. Thus, the need for a perfect sacrifice to bring us back to Allaah swt. Without such sacrifice, Allaah swt would send us all to the hellfire. Astaghfirullah!!!

[abdul Majid]

Thank You Ahmad, Well Said, Wa Asalamalakum Warahmitallahhi Wabarakatu, And Im Happy Allah Has Guided You To The Right Path !

[Ahmad]

Bismillah

as-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

JazakAllaahu Khairan

[Ahmad]

[QUOTE=PrIM3;215786]well actually Jesus vaguely said He was God and strongly said that He was Lord.

these verses from John chapter 8 shows Jesus calling Himself God vaguely

verse 23-24 --- You are from below, I am from above, you are of this world: I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM, you will indeed die in your sins.

QUOTE]

Bismillah

Peace.

All of the proof that you have provided can be refuted solely by using your own text. I can also provide many proofs that Jesus (peace be upon him) denied being G-d , the MOST HIGH. All that you listed were implicit statements, that do not prove He (peace be upon him) was G-d, the MOST HIGH. Verses used out of context can mean anything one wants it to mean.

[PrIM3]

John 10:38- I am in the Father and the Father is in me. speaks of the relationship between Jesus and the Father.

Son of God and the Son of Man- shows the relationship- between God the Father and between humans.
Son of God- means that he is close to God but not in literal terms as physical son of God.
Son of man- means friend of man... He is close to man... and of course he is man
John 1:1- In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

God always had a voice- God was never not God. God's word is so close to God and can be or is close to us.

The Word is God the Word ( Jesus Christ ) is perfect can do what ever God does. So God incarnated His word is Jesus Christ ( Annointed Savior )

Jesus uses the same words as God Almighty when God says " I Am who I Am " Jesus states in John 8:24, John 8:28, John 9:58.. He states I am...

Now I can't explain the trinity- how 3 people can be 1 being. but who is able to began to comprehend God?

human logic is something that can be explained in easy ways like math. But God is God logic that I can't explain...

[abdul Majid]

Now I can't explain the trinity- how 3 people can be 1 being. but who is able to began to comprehend God?

you right who can comprehend GOD(swt), he is great , the one , the almighty...

but i cant agree about jesus(pbh) being a son or anything else of GOD...
God has no sons, and was not begotten....

still to this day no one an prove this......and the king james version, is phony and even christian scholars said that and said it had been tampered with..

[PrIM3]

you right who can comprehend GOD(swt), he is great , the one , the almighty...

but i cant agree about jesus(pbh) being a son or anything else of GOD...
God has no sons, and was not begotten....

still to this day no one an prove this......and the king james version, is phony and even christian scholars said that and said it had been tampered with..

I never said he was Literally Son of God

[abdul Majid]

oh yea i know, thats just for the record....

peace to you prime

[Ahmad]

John 10:38- I am in the Father and the Father is in me. speaks of the relationship between Jesus and the Father.

Son of God and the Son of Man- shows the relationship- between God the Father and between humans.
Son of God- means that he is close to God but not in literal terms as physical son of God.
Son of man- means friend of man... He is close to man... and of course he is man
John 1:1- In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

God always had a voice- God was never not God. God's word is so close to God and can be or is close to us.

The Word is God the Word ( Jesus Christ ) is perfect can do what ever God does. So God incarnated His word is Jesus Christ ( Annointed Savior )

Jesus uses the same words as God Almighty when God says " I Am who I Am " Jesus states in John 8:24, John 8:28, John 9:58.. He states I am...

Now I can't explain the trinity- how 3 people can be 1 being. but who is able to began to comprehend God?

human logic is something that can be explained in easy ways like math. But God is God logic that I can't explain...

In the name of Allah

Peace.

I would like to first like to remind you:

"PROVE ALL THINGS!" (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Also, the Bible also says, "G-d is not the author of confusion."

In your dismissing of the trinity, is not practical, nor is it Biblical.

I will intend to use only Biblical verses within context of their meaning, Allah willing.

We must first kep in mind that Jesus (peace be upon him) was not the "only" son of G-d. It is used numerous times in the Biblical scripture.

Luke 3:36
“Enos was the son of Seth, and Seth was the son of Adam, and Adam was the son of God.”

Isaiah 62:8
refers to the entire house of Israel as being, ‘Sons of God’.


In explaining the trinity, many I have come across you mathematical analogies:

1x1x1=1

Ice, water, steam.

These analogies are inadequate, because the doctrine is a man-made philosophy.

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." [Mr 13:32]

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me." [John 6:38]

We can see that that if Jesus (peace be upon him) was indeed G-d incarnate, He would indeed have the characteristics of G-d. He would not lack anything. His power would be derived from himself and not from His Father.


Referring to "I am".

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth’, Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was, I am!’”

“I am” is the term used to identify God to Moses, peace be upon him.

[Ahmad]

Bismillah

According to the Bible, we are all Children of G-d. However, I am told he was the only "Begotten" son of G-d. Which is fabrication, because the Bible says that another was also begotten.

[Ahmad]

I notice that many religions believe in a G-s incarnate. And defend it extensively, with weak arguments. However, the Glorious Qur'an protects Muslims from this concept in Surah 112.

Alhamdulillah!!!

[Ahmad]

Bismillah

Also, remember that G-d cannot be tempted by evil.

"Let no one say when he is tempted: 'I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone" (James 1:13).

Jesus (peace be upon him) was indeed tempted.

"For because he himself has suffered and has been tempted, he is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted" (Hebrews 2:18).

Mark simply states that Jesus was tempted by Satan (1:13) but Matthew (4:1-11) and Luke (4:1-13) elaborate the story. It is claimed that during Jesus' alleged forty days' sojourn in the desert, following his baptism by John, Satan tempted him with promises of an earthly kingdom if Jesus would only worship him.

[PrIM3]

what you said is in red
what I said is in black


Also, the Bible also says, "G-d is not the author of confusion."

1 corinthians 3:2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed you are still not ready. you are still worldly.


Hebrew 5:12- In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. you need milk, not solid food! anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righeousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themeselves to distinguish good from evil... then later in 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementaryteachings about Christ and go on to maturity.

1Peter 2:2- like new born babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation. now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

according to these verses it is not God being confusing but it is us.. the people who haven't matured..

[abdul Majid]

it is not God being confusing but it is us.. the people who haven't matured..

i could agree to that..

[mahdisoldier19]

I think 2 billion christians could be accused of agreeing with that as well.

[Ahmad]

Bismillah

Peace.

I agree as well. G-d makes Himself known and it is people who make Him mysterious.

[PrIM3]

I see people agree with me.. but just to see if we are on the same page here.. I would like to ask how? or why do you agree with me?

do you agree with the scriptures I posted?

[abdul Majid]

it is not God being confusing but it is us.. the people who haven't matured..

i could agree to that..

[PrIM3]

then you must agree with the scripture then because that is what scripture say...
that it takes spiritual growth to understand.. the more your spirit grows the more you start to understand...

[abdul Majid]

then do you understand what I was saying when I said that?...

yea i think that basically God does not confuse or make it hard, rather it is the people who confuse them selves?? correct??

(IN GENERAL) <(=-=-=-=-

[PrIM3]

yea i think that basically God does not confuse or make it hard, rather it is the people who confuse them selves?? correct??

(IN GENERAL) <(=-=-=-=-

Yes

[abdul Majid]

Let me tell you dear friend......i agree with the REAL scriptures of the old and new testiment....I beleive in Jesus(p) Moses(p) David(p) Soloman(p) Abraham(p) and other prophets, if i didnt i wouldnt be one who submits to GOD(muslim)...but remember, Scriptures that have not been tampered with...

peace to you

[PrIM3]

Let me tell you dear friend......i agree with the REAL scriptures of the old and new testiment....I beleive in Jesus(p) Moses(p) David(p) Soloman(p) Abraham(p) and other prophets, if i didnt i wouldnt be one who submits to GOD(muslim)...but remember, Scriptures that have not been tampered with...

peace to you

I love you really I do...

I also follow God through Jesus Christ which makes me a Muslim if I might add

[PrIM3]

Bismillah

Also, remember that G-d cannot be tempted by evil.

"Let no one say when he is tempted: 'I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone" (James 1:13).

Jesus (peace be upon him) was indeed tempted.

"For because he himself has suffered and has been tempted, he is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted" (Hebrews 2:18).

Mark simply states that Jesus was tempted by Satan (1:13) but Matthew (4:1-11) and Luke (4:1-13) elaborate the story. It is claimed that during Jesus' alleged forty days' sojourn in the desert, following his baptism by John, Satan tempted him with promises of an earthly kingdom if Jesus would only worship him.

I would like to state that being Tempted does not mean that you sin.. Testing of the faith is good.. that is what satan did to Jesus.

He(satan) is the tempter of Jesus which Jesus overcomes the enemy

He( satan ) leads Judas to betray Jesus
He leads peter to deny Jesus
He Leads ananias to sin
His Prime target is you and me

Yes according to scripture to live is Christ and to die is gain. meaning we must live like Christ ( serve, take our scars, take our wounds, ect. ) and die is gain... wouldn't you agree to these statements?

[abdul Majid]

:statisfie

[PrIM3]

[QUOTE=Ahmad;215817]

well actually Jesus vaguely said He was God and strongly said that He was Lord.

these verses from John chapter 8 shows Jesus calling Himself God vaguely

verse 23-24 --- You are from below, I am from above, you are of this world: I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM, you will indeed die in your sins.

QUOTE]

Bismillah

Peace.

All of the proof that you have provided can be refuted solely by using your own text. I can also provide many proofs that Jesus (peace be upon him) denied being G-d , the MOST HIGH. All that you listed were implicit statements, that do not prove He (peace be upon him) was G-d, the MOST HIGH. Verses used out of context can mean anything one wants it to mean.

verses that I used out of context? you can easily see that I used these verses in the rightfully context.. maybe you should read the verses IN CONTEXTS. and tell me what you think.

I would like to see what are the verses where He denied being God.

[vpb]

is Jesus the son of God, or the part of 'three in one' God? this is really unclear

[PrIM3]

is Jesus the son of God, or the part of 'three in one' God? this is really unclear

Jesus is the Word of God incarnated. which makes Him God. like I posted in my posts...

Jesus is not the LITERAL Son of God like a Child is to a FATHER and MOTHER


the Term Son of God means Close... Jesus is Close to God.. because Christ died on the Cross we are able to be close to God.

the Word is God since the Word is Part of God. the Word is seated at the Right Hand of God and will come again ( I am not saying that He will come agian to argue that He is coming again.. Oh NO... I am telling you this to help you understand what the Term Son of GOd means )

[Maimunah]

Jesus is the Word of God incarnated. which makes Him God. like I posted in my posts...

Jesus is not the LITERAL Son of God like a Child is to a FATHER and MOTHER


the Term Son of God means Close... Jesus is Close to God.. because Christ died on the Cross we are able to be close to God.

the Word is God since the Word is Part of God. the Word is seated at the Right Hand of God and will come again ( I am not saying that He will come agian to argue that He is coming again.. Oh NO... I am telling you this to help you understand what the Term Son of GOd means )

i still dont get:? what does the trinity mean then:?

[abdul Majid]

lol ...... first you say hes GOD,

then you say he is ClOSE to GOD.....if hes GOD how could he die????

let alone by his own creation?????

the QURAN is the word of GOD, Does that make it GOD NOW???

[PrIM3]

Delete this post sorry

[PrIM3]

lol ...... first you say hes GOD,

then you say he is ClOSE to GOD.....if hes GOD how could he die????

let alone by his own creation?????

the QURAN is the word of GOD, Does that make it GOD NOW???

Jesus is the Word of God incarnated. which makes Him God in the Word there is no lie,
in Gods Word there is life, In Gods word there is comfort.




I think Nicole would have to explain why the Word of God in human flesh could die.

According to the Bible the Word of God is living... is the Quran living or is it dead? if its dead then infact no it isn't God..

[PrIM3]

Delete this one

[abdul Majid]

ok i still dont get it...


first you say hes GOD ....

then you say he is ClOSE to GOD ....

if hes GOD how could his own creation kill him ?????

ps. why would nicole have to explain something?? dont you know the answers to what your preaching??

[PrIM3]

ok i still dont get it...


first you say hes GOD ....

then you say he is ClOSE to GOD ....

if hes GOD how could his own creation kill him ?????

ps. why would nicole have to explain something?? dont you know the answers to what your preaching??

yes I did say that.. the term Son of God really shows how close He is to God..
The Word is God its Always been around. I guess picture you on your chair and you are speaking- now some how you are able to incarnate those words into flesh that would make the incarnated words... you.

[abdul Majid]

yes I did say that.. the term Son of God really shows how close He is to God..

The Word is God its Always been around. I guess picture you on your chair and you are speaking- now some how you are able to incarnate those words into flesh that would make the incarnated words... you.

ok you make no sense friend, you say it shows how close he is to GOD,

then you say he is GOD? thats not maken sense....

[PrIM3]

ok you make no sense friend, you say it shows how close he is to GOD,

then you say he is GOD? thats not maken sense....

the Term Son of God- shows how close the Word of God is... whe people used Son of whatever. it wasnt stating that they were literally the Son of that whatever... I believe in the quran it states that there was someone that was Son of the Road...

may I asked you what the Son of the road means?

God and the Word are totally different essences... but God incarnated His Word into Flesh in which his Word is also God.. since the Word belongs to God

[abdul Majid]

ok dont change the subject on me now...

you say"yes I did say that.. the term Son of God really shows how close He is to God.."

you say also "which makes Him God"

uhh that is a contradiction....he close to GOD, but then hes GOD ???
which one is it??

you also say ." God and the Word are totally different essences... but God incarnated His Word into Flesh in which his Word is also God.. since the Word belongs to God...

wheres your proof??

[Muslim Knight]

[U]According to the Bible the Word of God is living... is the Quran living or is it dead? if its dead then infact no it isn't God..

Al-Quran is Kalamullah. It's Speech of God. How can you equate speech with the speaker? A speech is a speech and not the speaker. If I say, "Hello" does this mean "Hello" is me? I'm a human, can I possibly be a word, book or sentence? Except you're speaking metaphorically, that is, to read a person like a book.

My previous discussion with brother Ansar Al-`Adl helped me explaining about the Quran as the Word of God and its position in book form.

A book is an actual form in which words are recorded. A book containing the words of God denotes a book which ahs characters and symbols which collectively represent the words of God. But no one records words in the form of living things. A person is not like a book that can be recited.

But anyway, the major point is this: Christians don't just say that Christ is the word of God, they say that Christ IS God. Muslims on the other hand never claimed that the Qur'an is God!

[Nicola]

Al-Quran is Kalamullah. It's Speech of God. How can you equate speech with the speaker? A speech is a speech and not the speaker. If I say, "Hello" does this mean "Hello" is me? I'm a human, can I possibly be a word, book or sentence? Except you're speaking metaphorically, that is, to read a person like a book.

Well you are a human like you say...but God is not...anything is possible for God...Gods' word is Jesus who He made into flesh..to live amongst us.

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'")

God turned his own living word into flesh.
Jesus (Word) was in God from the very beginning also Gods Spirit..who we now have indwellling in us, the gift of Gods' Holy Spirit.

JohnJoh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?

Because Jesus is Gods word...Jesus (word) only speaks what God says. It is God who is speaking.

The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

The works Jesus did could have only been done by the father...no human could have done this things. Only God.


Joh 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

Joh 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Joh 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

Joh 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.


Is.7:14-15.

"The Lord himself, therefore, will give you a sign. It is this: the maiden is with child and will soon give birth to a son whom she will call Immanuel."

Immanuel or Emmanuel or Imanu'el (עִמָּנוּאֵל "God [is] with us",)

God foretold us He was going to dwell on earth with mankind.

Mat 1:20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "

Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

Mat 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
Mat 1:23

"Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel" (which means, God with us).

[abdul Majid]

i refuse to beleive any word from the bible, becuase it has been altered, and thats a fact...

and why would GOD let Jesus die.....

ok so nicola, you established that jesus is not GOD, rather his WORD...? correct??

p.s, do you think JESUS 9p) was white?? or what nationality

[Nicola]

i refuse to beleive any word from the bible, becuase it has been altered, and thats a fact...{/QUOTE]

You don't need to believe or read any word at all...the Holy Spirit leads you to the truth.

and why would GOD let Jesus die.....

This is why...from Isaiah God tells us He was going to die for our sins..(transgressions)
because. The blood scarifices that the Jewish priests used to do once a year with an unblemished young animal in the Temple ..The Holy of Holies this was not enough for the atonement of their sins...Jesus was the only one because he was sinless and Holy and he was Gods word made flesh, he payed with his blood and life for all our sins if we accept him.


Isaiah 53:5-7 (NIV) But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

Isaiah 53:12 (NIV) Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

ok so nicola, you established that jesus is not GOD, rather his WORD...? correct??

Gods word became flesh yes. And the word is God.

p.s, do you think JESUS 9p) was white?? or what nationality

I don't know what colour he was her on earth, but I've never thought of him being white.....I imagine a lovely brownish tanned colour..and Jewish.

[ISDhillon]

Hello people,:)


I am quite shocked at how people still debate about the divinity of Christ, consumerist Christianity which has been repackaged throughout the centuries, and who’s definition currently falls in line with philosophy and science attempted to hijack the modern agenda, with the globalization of freedom and democracy hey presto Christ now lives inside every Christian and therefore your free to do what you like, does that not strike anyone as a coincidence? The Christian bible is NOT the word of god it is the product of mind it lacks any spiritual substance whatsoever as it was written by those who operate in dualism ie, personal opinions. Jesus Christ went from the "metaphorical son of god" to "metaphysical god the son" this is a product of pathetic preachers who have evolved the scripture to appease their own feeble minds, I can understand how this came to be judging by the media portrayal of Norman Kember anybody would think it was the second coming of Christ at Heathrow airport – OVER-GLORIFICATION. Jesus Christ never wrote down that he was god, I too could write a book about a mythical character from history but ultimately it would remain a myth like the candy man or snow white, the bible is nothing but an unauthorised biography.

Move on with your lives and I am sorry if I offended,

ISDhillon;D

[abdul Majid]

Gods word became flesh yes. And the word is God.

ok so when GOD created ADAM(p) he said be and he was.....

but ADAM was not GOD, he is a creation....created by his creator, that does not make you GOD....

[vpb]

if Jesus is son of God, then in case to have a child there should be sexual relationship between a woman and a man, so if Mary was the woman, and God the man, then he is not God, but if God created the son in Mary's womb , then it is not a child, but it is a creation. This needs just a little bit logic and it is seen so clearly that it just does not work.

[PrIM3]

ok so when GOD created ADAM(p) he said be and he was.....

but ADAM was not GOD, he is a creation....created by his creator, that does not make you GOD....

we are not talking about Adam here but we are talking about Jesus..

through Jesus Christ ( the Word ) did God create everything on earth..

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through him ( the Word ( Jesus Christ ( Annointed Savior ))) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made..

God has always had a voice. so never was God disabled without His Christ.

[abdul Majid]

lol, im sorry but that makes no sense,

i bring up ADAM , becuase ADAM is created, GOD said BE AND HE WAS !!
!BY WORD...

BUT ADAM IS NOT GOD....YOU SAY GODS WORD CREATES <(=--=

SO WE ARE ALL CREATED , THAT DOESNT MAKE US ALL GOD...

EARTH IS CREATED BY GOD, THAT DOESNT MEAN ITS GOD ..!!

[vpb]

abdul Majid, exactly, Jesus was created in Mary's womb, how did that become Son of God?

[abdul Majid]

yea bro its common sense like you said...lol

[abdul Majid]

[pie]<> We all know the Bible says 'God is One' and, "Thou shalt not have any 'gods' beside God."

Yet somehow today Christians are presenting a vast variety of terms and explanations on how God can actually be "One and Three at the same time."

Some attempt to resolve the issue by saying "Jesus is Lord!" or even "Jesus is God." (May Allah save us from any blasphemy, ameen).

<> According to the priests of the Holy Roman Catholic Church there is more to the belief in God than simply saying, "God is One."

<> Jews had no problem with the concept of "Unity of God."

<> The problem was with the Greeks and other pagans who had become quite used to the notion, that their 'gods' in some way resembled the creation around them.

<> Arius, the bishop from Egypt, like many of the early Christians, believed in God as One and Jesus, peace be upon him, as one subservient to God. That is to say, in a lessor position than God.

This concept is still held today by more than 1.5 billion Muslims, who adhere to the teachings of the Quran and the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

<> Simply put, "There is no God worthy of worship, except the One True God. He has no partners."

This aligns nicely with the belief of the early followers of Abraham, Moses, David and Solomon, peace be upon them all.

In an effort to resolve this issue once and for all, Emperor Constantine ordered the bishops from the different factions to assemble in His land.

<> What took place next was to change the way most Christians think of God for many centuries to [/pie]come.http://islamtomorrow.com/bible/Arianism.asp

[PrIM3]

Oh I think I know where you are coming from..

well no actually... even if the Word had never came to earth the Word would still be God.. the Body of Jesus Christ has no play in the Jesus Christ being God.

think of it this way.. God created a capsul for his word to dwell in... kind of like a pill.. the out side is the shell but that isn't the medicine but the stuff that is inside it.

[vpb]

Prim3, there is really something that I don't understand, why sometimes christians say Jesus = son of god and GOD = father, and the other side they say 3 Gods in One, where one of the three is Jesus?

I would like a logical explanation

[abdul Majid]

yea and, why didnt Jesus say this himself, why are people making stuff up on his behave, and putting words in his mouth??

he always said your god is one.......with no partners

and please do not quote anythign from an altered bible..

[PrIM3]

Prim3, there is really something that I don't understand, why sometimes christians say Jesus = son of god and GOD = father, and the other side they say 3 Gods in One, where one of the three is Jesus?

I would like a logical explanation

Jesus IS THE WORD.. The Body is where the Word dwelled in while He was on earth..

the Word is the Son of God.. in meaning that the Word is close to the Father. the Word is sitting on the right hand of God on the throne..

[PrIM3]

yea and, why didnt Jesus say this himself, why are people making stuff up on his behave, and putting words in his mouth??

he always said your god is one.......with no partners

and please do not quote anythign from an altered bible..

since when do you have to verbally say that you are human in order for people to know that you are a human?

[vpb]

I am not looking where he stays, cuz as far as I can see you did not clarify what I asked for, you just explained to me that word is the jesus and he is the son of god where is stays near to him. But what about the other belief that says there are three gods in one, where the one in flesh (if I am not makin a mistake) is the Jesus, so it looks to me one side jesus is the son of God, on side he is the god in flesh (which is part of the trinity).

[abdul Majid]

ok prime but this is obviously a important message,

im sure he would have said so......

by the way, how can GOD almighty...ok have begotten anything??
i mean i know you beleive in GOD correct, we beleive in the same GOD....

[vpb]

Qur'an says that, if there would be a son of God too, would'nt they fight who to take the authority?

[PrIM3]

I would like to take a break.. right now.. my spirit is tired... and I am tired.. so I will ttyl. Thanks for yalls dialogue.

God Bless.

[abdul Majid]

ok take care..

[vpb]

Peace

[cleo]

If Jesus was a man, he ate, breathed air, bled, he drank, how could he be God? He was a man. Correct? If he was God, how could he have been sent by the Father in heaven? Allah, taught his prophets to hear his words, which are just.So if he was listening to Allah, how could he be Allah? Makes sense to me.

[cleo]

Peace

Ameen

[vpb]

there are many things that are really weird to think of. I am talking for myself for ex.

1.they carry the sins of Adam, and they say that when Jesus comes back on Earth he will take all children and they will go to heaven (he will take all little children that still don't have knowledge about God). How? They have not learned very well about the religion, so actually only thing they carry is the sins of Adam. How are they going to Paradise? They have sins, and still not have knowledge to believe in Jesus's sacrifise so that they can be saved?
2. they say that Jesus comes back and take children and good people too who believed in his sacrifice, but in the other hand they believe in Day of Judgement? If he comes on Earth and takes all children and people who believed in his sacrifice and sends them to paradise than who's left for the day of judgement? Isn't the day of judgement when God tells who's for paradise who's for hell - measuring the deeds??
3.Why nobody says that Adam is the son of God?? he was even more miraciolus than Jesus, he was created neither by father nor mother.

these things do not drink water at all

[Nicola]

ok prime but this is obviously a important message,

im sure he would have said so......

by the way, how can GOD almighty...ok have begotten anything??
i mean i know you beleive in GOD correct, we beleive in the same GOD....

Because he is God and everything is possible for God.
Examples throughout scripture show us that His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.

We will never be able to work Gods ways out

[Nicola]

there are many things that are really weird to think of. I am talking for myself for ex.

1.they carry the sins of Adam, and they say that when Jesus comes back on Earth he will take all children and they will go to heaven (he will take all little children that still don't have knowledge about God). How? They have not learned very well about the religion, so actually only thing they carry is the sins of Adam. How are they going to Paradise? They have sins, and still not have knowledge to believe in Jesus's sacrifise so that they can be saved?

Are you talking about the rapture here?

2. they say that Jesus comes back and take children and good people too who believed in his sacrifice, but in the other hand they believe in Day of Judgement? If he comes on Earth and takes all children and people who believed in his sacrifice and sends them to paradise than who's left for the day of judgement? Isn't the day of judgement when God tells who's for paradise who's for hell - measuring the deeds??
3.Why nobody says that Adam is the son of God?? he was even more miraciolus than Jesus, he was created neither by father nor mother.

these things do not drink water at all

What many Christians believe is before judgement and the great tribulation..all Chrisitans who are alive then will be raptured up to heaven...leaving only non believers on earth, except for the two witness's...then all people will have a choice, whether to except the mark of the beast or Jesus as their saviour. But we are told in the Bible how hard it will be for the people who come to except Jesus then.
When Jesus returns 2nd coming...he will bring all his saints with him...meaning
Christians the ones who he raptured up and all the dead Christians he will awake. After the battle then will come judgement...and we will all be judged Christians also...and according to what they did on earth...they will be rewarded justly by Jesus.

[sargon]

I wanna know why Jesus had no father, it would make sense that his father is God because God made Mary pregnant. However sometimes things make sense and they dont at the same time. So I think yeah it makes sense... but Jesus was a man so how could he be God. Then that would mean Mary was God's wife... so that doesn't really work out either.

I mean God could just materialize into a man, or show some type of Godly face in the clouds.

One good point is my Christian friend told my the nature of love is sacrafice. And God came as Jesus to show us he loves us, by sacrificing himself. That sounds really nice and everything but it just makes me go "eeeehhhhhh," but how was he a man and God? And why not just forgive our sins anyways? Why does God have to suffer? God can't suffer right? Is that even possible?

And then it always comes down to "God can do anything, he's God." That's always the last argument I hear from my Christian friend, he's a real good guy. It just doesn't make any sense, but teh sacrifice bit really touched me. Actually not thinking God sacrificed, but that the nature of love is sacrifice, yeh, like that.

[hammadj49]

Dear brothers and sisters a Muslim should not pay heed to those versus of Bible which contradict even a single Verse of the Holy Quran and Sahih Hadith as Allah (SWT) Says in the Holy Quran "Say He is Allah the One and Only Allah, the Eternal Absolute He begetteth not nor is He begotten And there is none like unto Him" and it is my definite opinion that the Holy Bible is no more Holy Bible because the so-called believers of Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) have been changing Its substance from time to time.

[vpb]

hammadj49, yes bro we know that, but we were just disscusing how the things in christianity really work which do not make sense for me and other bro.s

Nicola, not really about rapturing, but how is a child going to heaven when he has sins? Why should that child carry the sins because Adam (pbuh) dissobeyed God about the tree? And if you believe God is forgivener, if by your religious prespective God forgave Adam, then why are people still carrying his sins? What is the option for children who die before they are able to think about God, to go to heaven? If they have sins and they still go to heaven? then????? other bad people should go to heaven too, or God is not judging right?

What many Christians believe is before judgement and the great tribulation..all Chrisitans who are alive then will be raptured up to heaven...leaving only non believers on earth, except for the two witness's...then all people will have a choice, whether to except the mark of the beast or Jesus as their saviour. But we are told in the Bible how hard it will be for the people who come to except Jesus then.
When Jesus returns 2nd coming...he will bring all his saints with him...meaning
Christians the ones who he raptured up and all the dead Christians he will awake. After the battle then will come judgement...and we will all be judged Christians also...and according to what they did on earth...they will be rewarded justly by Jesus.

first, you're saying that they are raptured and sent to heaven, then raise from the dead, and then judge?

are they dead, or are they in heaven?

Selam

[Al-Mu'min]

Asalamu-Alaikum.
My dear Christian friends why do you solely rely on one book which you know for a fact, has been tempered with, and put your own soul on the line for it? It isn't scientifically or logically clear or accepted.

If you love Jesus pbuh and his mother Marry pbuh, then please listen to both sides of thier story with an open heart. Atleast you owe them that much.

Peace.

[Al-Mu'min]

Asalamu-Alaikum.
My dear Christian friends why do you solely rely on one book which you know for a fact, has been tempered with, and sacrifice your own soul on the line for it? It isn't scientifically or logically clear or accepted.

If you love Jesus pbuh and his mother Marry pbuh, then please listen to both sides of thier story with an open heart. Atleast you owe them that much.

Peace.

[vpb]

Al-Mu'min, some times you show facts, but if Allah swt don't wanna guide them, we're got get to 1000 pages of the thread trying to tell them and it's still notta gonna work, so we're gonna try and hope Allah swt will open their heart.

[Al-Mu'min]

Salamu-Alaikum.

Well I really appreciate the Non-Muslim brothers and sisters in here. Atleast they care enough to discuss religion, and are willing to express thier opinions and convictions with people of different faiths. Some people just don't bother at all.
May God giude them and us, and whosoever is looking to get closer to his Lord and Creator. Ameen

Peace.

[PrIM3]

hammadj49, yes bro we know that, but we were just disscusing how the things in christianity really work which do not make sense for me and other bro.s

Nicola, not really about rapturing, but how is a child going to heaven when he has sins? Why should that child carry the sins because Adam (pbuh) dissobeyed God about the tree? And if you believe God is forgivener, if by your religious prespective God forgave Adam, then why are people still carrying his sins? What is the option for children who die before they are able to think about God, to go to heaven? If they have sins and they still go to heaven? then????? other bad people should go to heaven too, or God is not judging right?

yes we all have that natural sin in us.. even children are sinners.... but childrens are protected underneith Gods protective wings.. childrens don't understand things and they rely on other people... even Jesus states: Matthew 18:2
you can't enter heaven unless you become like one of these little children and rely on your Lord.

[vpb]

Prime3, I understand you my friend, but for real this does not drink water to me, I can't think of a child with sin, which still has no clue what is happening in world.

[PrIM3]

Prime3, I understand you my friend, but for real this does not drink water to me, I can't think of a child with sin, which still has no clue what is happening in world.

we must all become like little children instead of us having our own selfish ambitions or relying on our ownselves we must become like little children and rely on God..
children are protected since they have that mentality of relying on someone but once they sin and they have doing under selfish ambition. like disobeying their parents.. then and only then are they knocked out of the protective wing of God...

[Al-Mu'min]

we must all become like little children instead of us having our own selfish ambitions or relying on our ownselves we must become like little children and rely on God..
children are protected since they have that mentality of relying on someone but once they sin and they have doing under selfish ambition. like disobeying their parents.. then and only then are they knocked out of the protective wing of God...

Yeah but let's say for argument's sake that your biological father murdered five people and then died himself. So in order to preserve justice, the court finds you giulty of this sin that your father commited, and you are sent to jail for it. Does that make any sense?
What even makes much less sense is, when you blame a new born baby for a sin that was commited in the beginning of mankind!!

[Goku]

Jazak Allah Khair

[Ahmad]

I would like to state that being Tempted does not mean that you sin.. Testing of the faith is good.. that is what satan did to Jesus.
He(satan) is the tempter of Jesus which Jesus overcomes the enemy

He( satan ) leads Judas to betray Jesus
He leads peter to deny Jesus
He Leads ananias to sin
His Prime target is you and me

Yes according to scripture to live is Christ and to die is gain. meaning we must live like Christ ( serve, take our scars, take our wounds, ect. ) and die is gain... wouldn't you agree to these statements?

Bismillah
With the statements that you put forth I only agree that the testing of faith makes one more fervent in it if we are steadfast.

As I have posted above, God cannot be tempted, by evil. It says that in the Biblical scripture, and Jesus (p) being tempted by the Satan to do evil is nonetheless, what a mortal, human being goes through. As the Bible puts it, Jesus (p) does not sin. However, my point is not that He sinned, but that He was tempted.

Do you agree that God can be tempted to do evil?

Regarding your last statements, to die for the sake of the One God, who has no partners and who has created everything there is...is in fact a major gain. However, to die for another human being and call him the creator is blasphemous and it is not a good state to die in. In fact, it is the worse.

[Ahmad]

Yeah but let's say for argument's sake that your biological father murdered five people and then died himself. So in order to preserve justice, the court finds you giulty of this sin that your father commited, and you are sent to jail for it. Does that make any sense?
What even makes much less sense is, when you blame a new born baby for a sin that was commited in the beginning of mankind!!

Bismillah

The "Original Sin" concept is another topic; however, it digresses from the fact that our Christian brother here is stressing that Jesus (p) called himself God. God incarnate.

The point is that the Bible also does teach that man is responsible for their own sin. The Almighty Allah will not place the burden of others on others who are innocent of some elses' deeds. Allah is just and all merciful.

Insha'Allah, if there is not a thread on Original Sin I will post one.

[Ahmad]

[QUOTE=PrIM3;231756]we must all become like little children instead of us having our own selfish ambitions or relying on our ownselves we must become like little children and rely on God..

children are protected since they have that mentality of relying on someone but once they sin and they have doing under selfish ambition. like disobeying their parents.. then and only then are they knocked out of the protective wing of God...[/QUOTE]

In keeping with the Biblical creed:"PROVE ALL THINGS!" (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Yes, Jesus (p) said that none will enter into the Kingdom until we become like little children. It is allegorical, however, the point is like you said Prime. We must be humble rely on God and trust in HIM or created us.


Now your second paragraph jumps the gun. God protects us, he never forsakes us.

[Ahmad]

The Torah loudly dismisses the notion that man has lost his divinely endowed capacity to freely choose good over evil, life over death. This is not a hidden or ambiguous message in the Jewish scriptures. On the contrary, it is proclaimed in virtually every teaching that Moses directs to the children of Israel.

The Prophet Moses (p) according to the Bible makes an explicit statement that a human being can turn to God and seek forgiveness. God does not hold grudges like mere humans.

Deuteronomy 30:10-14 states:


. . . if you will hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law; if you turn unto the Lord thy God with all your heart and with all your soul; for this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you neither is it too far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, and make us hear it, that we may do it?" Neither is it beyond the sea that you should say: "Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it that we may do it?" The word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

Deuteronomy 30:14
But the word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

Romans 10:8
But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach).


Elizabeth, who is the cousin of Mary, and her husband Zechariah as the virtuous parents of John the Baptist.
"Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly." (Luke 1:6)

In Genesis 4:6-7, God turns to Cain and warns him,

If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? If, though, you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you shall master over it.

That he shall master over it? Over what? Sin! Yes, the flesh is indeed, weak, however, with God's help all is possible.

[Ahmad]

Regarding Jesus(p) being God.

These verses reject such a notion. The Bible states that He was a Prophet, a man, an intecessor, a son of man, a son of God. (Metaphorically, speaking.) Jesus (p) according to the Bible was a messenger sent with a message. Not to die to redeem humanity, but to serve God and correct his people in the correct way to worship God.

John 7:16, 12:49, 14:24, 17:14 - Jesus' words were not his.John 8:42 - Jesus did not come of himself.
John 10:29 - "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all."
John 14:1 - Jesus said, "...believe also in me."
John 14:16, 17:1, 17:9, 17:11, 17:15 - Jesus prayed.
John 14:31 and 15:10 - Jesus followed commands.
John 17:6-8 - "I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me."
John 20:17 - Jesus had a god.
Acts 2:22 - Jesus was "a man approved of God.
"Romans 8:34 - Jesus was an intercessor.
1 Timothy 2:5 - Jesus was the mediator between God and humans.

Isaiah states: "To whom then will you liken God? To what likeness will you compare Him?

Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim

"Say: He is ALLAH, the one and only the eternal the absolute, He begets not, nor is He begotten and there is none like unto Him."

Wa Allahu alam.
Surah 112.

[PrIM3]

Regarding Jesus(p) being God.

These verses reject such a notion. The Bible states that He was a Prophet, a man, an intecessor, a son of man, a son of God. (Metaphorically, speaking.) Jesus (p) according to the Bible was a messenger sent with a message. Not to die to redeem humanity, but to serve God and correct his people in the correct way to worship God.

John 7:16, 12:49, 14:24, 17:14 - Jesus' words were not his.John 8:42 - Jesus did not come of himself.
John 10:29 - "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all."
John 14:1 - Jesus said, "...believe also in me."
John 14:16, 17:1, 17:9, 17:11, 17:15 - Jesus prayed.
John 14:31 and 15:10 - Jesus followed commands.
John 17:6-8 - "I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me."
John 20:17 - Jesus had a god.
Acts 2:22 - Jesus was "a man approved of God.
"Romans 8:34 - Jesus was an intercessor.
1 Timothy 2:5 - Jesus was the mediator between God and humans.

Jesus is the Word the Word cannot add unless the Speaker speaks it.. which in this case God incarnated His Word in which was perfect coming strait from God Himself...to earth born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit which is God.

those who have Faith in the Word will live by the Word.

Hebrew 1:8 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever.

Jesus speaking--Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End

[Ahmad]

Jesus is the Word the Word cannot add unless the Speaker speaks it.. which in this case God incarnated His Word in which was perfect coming strait from God Himself...to earth born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit which is God.

those who have Faith in the Word will live by the Word.

I understand that He (p) is the word of God. I definitely believe that as well. When Allah (swt) decrees a matter HE says to it, BE! and it is. I agree with the virgin birth and Jesus (p) coming from Allah (swt).

No argument here, Prime.

[Ahmad]

Bismillah

No one shares in the divinity of His Lord. The Lord is free from all imperfections. Yes, Allah's (swt) breathes His spirit into us, but that negates the fact that we are a God, in the true sense of the word.

[ummAbdillah]

salaam
"As he [Jesus] was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, 'Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?' Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."
Mark 10:17-18.

we don't worship Jesus (peace be upon him). We worship the god that he worshiped :) ALLAH!!!!!

peace :)

[Nicola]

Bismillah

No one shares in the divinity of His Lord. The Lord is free from all imperfections. Yes, Allah's (swt) breathes His spirit into us, but that negates the fact that we are a God, in the true sense of the word.

Christians don't believe anyone shares in the divinity of God either.

[vpb]

Christians don't believe anyone shares in the divinity of God either.

doesn't the son of God and the Father share the divinity?

christians whatever have to ask for something they ask Jesus, and not the Father.

[PrIM3]

doesn't the son of God and the Father share the divinity?

christians whatever have to ask for something they ask Jesus, and not the Father.

no- if I understand the question correctly-- we ask the Father in the name of His Word.

[vpb]

Jesus is the son of God, then He is the God in flesh (part of trinity), and they don't share divine (Jesus and the Father).

hah I really don't know what is going on here :D

[PrIM3]

according to John 17:5-And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

which in Isaiah 42:8-I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not give my glory to another
or my praise to idols.

wonder why someone who isn't God is asking this same God to glorify Himself.( Jesus )

<hr>
Jesus uses the same term as David uses for the Lord God.
John 10:11-I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Psalm 23:1-The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.


according to both John 5:27 and Matt 25:31: When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

as in joel 3:12- Let the nations be roused;
let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
for there I will sit
to judge all the nations on every side.

Jesus uses the term for himself that He is the bridegroom clearly God uses it for himself only
Matt 25:1- At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Hos 2:16-In that day," declares the LORD,
"you will call me 'my husband';
you will no longer call me 'my master


Jesus states He is the light of the World in which agian is the same term for God in psalm
John 8:12-When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Ps 27:1-The LORD is my light and my salvation—
whom shall I fear?
The LORD is the stronghold of my life—
of whom shall I be afraid?

[vpb]

according to John 17:5-And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

didn't he have the glory all the time? why he had it before , then he didn't and then he is asking again for it?

which in Isaiah 42:8-I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not give my glory to another
or my praise to idols.

first he was asking for glory from the Father, and now he is saying I will not give my glory to another?

joel 3:12- Let the nations be roused;
let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
for there I will sit
to judge all the nations on every side.

who is speaking here Jesus or the Father?

Jesus states He is the light of the World in which agian is the same term for God in psalm
John 8:12-When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

You said that there is no share of divine between Jesus and the Father? how come now he is speaking with the authority of being God?

Ps 27:1-The LORD is my light and my salvation—
whom shall I fear?
The LORD is the stronghold of my life—
of whom shall I be afraid?

Whoever is talking in this verse, he is saying that his salvation is to Jesus and he fears him? Where is the Father? I guess in this verse the Father's authority is lost.

P.S Prim3 don't be offended for my opinions that I am expressing

[PrIM3]

didn't he have the glory all the time? why he had it before , then he didn't and then he is asking again for it?
He was asking in reasurrance.. instead of being humiliated by people He would get the glory and honor that God only deserves


first he was asking for glory from the Father, and now he is saying I will not give my glory to another?
no this is in the Isaiah 42:8-I ( in old testement) where first God says He will not give His glory to anyone... ---then the John 17:5( New Testement ) where Jesus ask for glory surely if Jesus wasn't God or wasn't part of the Triunity He wouldn't have asked for glory.


who is speaking here Jesus or the Father?
joel 3:12-God is speaking in that verse


You said that there is no share of divine between Jesus and the Father? how come now he is speaking with the authority of being God?
I really have no knowledge of this.. i was just answering you about prayer.. how we ask Jesus instead of the Father... in which when I pray I like to open up with Father God--- then close in His Son Jesus Christ name...


Whoever is talking in this verse, he is saying that his salvation is to Jesus and he fears him? Where is the Father? I guess in this verse the Father's authority is lost.
in Ps 27:1 David is talking about the Lord God

P.S Prim3 don't be offended for my opinions that I am expressing
of course I won't be offended...why would I be?

[vpb]

glory surely if Jesus wasn't God or wasn't part of the Triunity He wouldn't have asked for glory.

as I can see you're saying with this statement that Jesus is part of trinity, but u said that there is no share of divine between Father and Jesus? How come he is part of Trinity when he does not share the divine?

who is speaking here Jesus or the Father?
joel 3:12-God is speaking in that verse

God (trinity) or Jesus?

[PrIM3]

as I can see you're saying with this statement that Jesus is part of trinity, but u said that there is no share of divine between Father and Jesus? How come he is part of Trinity when he does not share the divine?


God (trinity) or Jesus?

well sharing in my dictionary means that two people share something.. but the living Jesus is a part of the living Father just like the living Holy Spirit is a part of Him..


and the verse it is God( Trinity )

[Ahmad]

Christians don't believe anyone shares in the divinity of God either.

Bismillah

Peace, Nicola.

The Athanasian Creed says different.

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity."

"So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord."

All of the Christians I come in contact with do claim that the essence of Jesus (p) is of God and His Holy spirit. Except for the non-Trinitarian Christians, i.e Unitarians, J.W's.

[Ahmad]

well sharing in my dictionary means that two people share something.. but the living Jesus is a part of the living Father just like the living Holy Spirit is a part of Him..


and the verse it is God( Trinity )

Bismillah

Merely, because they share something does not make something part of it. We are all created by God, but do we share in God's power. No!


"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

John 17:3

If we were to read the Bible we would find that long after the departure of Jesus, his faithful followers continued to "keep up their daily attendance at the Temple" (Acts 2:46) It would be beyond belief to imagine that had Jesus indeed preached to his apostles that he was God, and if Jesus had indeed commanded them to forsake the commandments, that they would then disregard all of this and continue to worship in a Jewish synagogue on a daily basis, let alone the great Temple itself. It is further beyond belief that the Jews of the Temple would stand idly by and allow them to do this if they were preaching the total cancellation of the law of Moses and that Jesus was God.

Can any Trinitarian Christian, even in their wildest fantasies, imagine that the Jews in an orthodox Jewish synagogue would stand idly by while he took out his cross and prayed to Jesus in the midst of their synagogue and was publicly calling others to worship Jesus and forsake the commandments? How much more preposterous to imagine that they would have nothing to say to someone who did that in their most sacred of all synagogues, the Temple, on a daily basis yet. This is further evidence in support of the Qur'an, that Jesus only called his followers to a continuation of the religion of Moses and not by any means to the total cancellation and destruction of that law.

"Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior." Isaiah 43:10-11.

." As we just read, the first definition of the Trinity was put forth in the fourth century as follows: "...we worship one God in the trinity, and Trinity in Unity...for there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost is all one... they are not three gods, but one God... the whole three persons are co-eternal and co-equal...he therefore that will be saved must thus think of the trinity..." (excerpts from the Athanasian creed).

[Ahmad]

no- if I understand the question correctly-- we ask the Father in the name of His Word.

Bismillah

When a Christians prays they pray in the name of Jesus (p).

i.e. in the name of Jesus. Amen.

[Ahmad]

If Jesus was a man, he ate, breathed air, bled, he drank, how could he be God? He was a man. Correct? If he was God, how could he have been sent by the Father in heaven? Allah, taught his prophets to hear his words, which are just.So if he was listening to Allah, how could he be Allah? Makes sense to me.

Bismillah

There were a multitude of competing ieologies surrounding the nature of Isa (as). Nestorianism: Of or relating to the theological doctrine, declared heretical in 431, that within Jesus are two distinct persons, divine and human, rather than a single divine person.

Monopysitism: An adherent of the doctrine that in the person of Jesus there was but a single, divine nature. Coptic and Syrian Christians profess this doctrine.

Hypostatic Union: Jesus is both God and man in one person.

The Majority of Christendom adheres to the last.

[Ahmad]

"O people of the book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was [no more or less than] a messenger of Allah, and His word, which he bestowed upon Mary, and a spirit preceding from Him: so believe in Allah and his messengers. Say not "Three": desist!, it is better for you, for Allah is one god, Glory be to Him, Far exalted is He above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and the earth. And enough is Allah as a disposer of affairs."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Nissah(4):171

[vpb]

"O people of the book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was [no more or less than] a messenger of Allah, and His word, which he bestowed upon Mary, and a spirit preceding from Him: so believe in Allah and his messengers. Say not "Three": desist!, it is better for you, for Allah is one god, Glory be to Him, Far exalted is He above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and the earth. And enough is Allah as a disposer of affairs."

:) it's such a beautifull verse. isn't it?

[Al-Mu'min]

It sure is.

[nimrod]

I have been "sort of" reading along on this thread a bit. I would like to offer some insight into the question raised by the title of the thread.

I have been reluctant to do so because I am still just a beginer concerning Islam.

If I could get a few simple questions answered it would be most helpful in allowing me to offer what ever in-sight I may have.

The first question would be about any common ground we might have so that we have a recoginizable<sp> starting point.

The first question I would like to ask is: What scripture common to Christianty does Islam also consider true and complete?

As an example, does Islam see the book of Ruth as being complete and true?

Thanks
Nimrod

[vpb]

nimrod, selam alaikum,
inshallah you will learn more about Islam.

as for your question, no book is accepted or taken as completed and true in Islam except the Qur'an. We believe Qur'an is the only true and completed book (and preserved), which was revealed by Allah swt to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) 14 centuries ago, where Qur'an was to confirm the previous revealed books by Moses,Isa (Jesus) (pbut).... which were altered by people

I hope this answered your question

[Al-Mu'min]

Peace.

Nimrod,

The Psalms of prophet David , The Torah or Old Testament of prophet Moses, The Injeel( New testament) of prophet Jesus. The Quran is the final message or book of God given to prophet Mohammed. May peace be upon them all.

I don't know about the book of Ruth. I'll have to research.

Peace.

[Al-Mu'min]

Nimrod, peace once again.

The book of Ruth:

"The author is unknown. Jewish tradition points to Samuel, but it is unlikely that he is the author because the mention of David (4:17,22) implies a later date. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 360)"

For more about which parts of the Bible Muslims believe in, please refer to thise site:
http://www.answering-christianity.co...rs_gospels.htm

[Al-Mu'min]

Sorry.

this link:
http://www.gawaher.com/index.php?showtopic=26513&st=0

[nimrod]

Al-Mu'min thanks for the link. I will study it.

At times it seems like comparing apples to oranges when trying to find common ground concerning scripture.

Vpb, you say Islam rejects all scripture concering the Christian Old Testament bible as being true and complete.

Can you explain what Old Testament scripture you personaly reject and explain why?

Surely anyone rejecting what a prophet offers as scripture must ONLY reject it after careful thought.

Vbr exactly what portion of an Old testament book such as Daniel does Islam consider true and correct?

Please explain Why you reject any and all scripture in the book of Daniel from the Christian Old Testament.

Thanks
Nimrod

[vpb]

nimrod, what I meant is that Islam right now does not accept any other book except Qur'an, because we believe OT,NT and other scriptures have been changed by people, that's why I am saying it rejects know, and because they have been changed Allah swt sent the last prophet Mohammed pbuh with the Qur'an, so the book would remain unchanged (even people tried) till the Day of Judgement, but there are still some things in Bible which are true, but very little.
I hope this is the explanation that u wanted.

peace.

[nimrod]

Vpb I understand your point, the point I am mkaing is this:

If you reject Ruth 1:5 as being incomplete then you MUST have thought about Ruth 1:5 and came up with a logical reason for rejecting it.

Surely Allah will at the very least hold you accountable for doing that minor thing.

Now.......

you........

Vpb....

what parts of the Book of Ruth do you personaly discount as being wrong?

Thanks
Nimrod

[vpb]

Can you explain what Old Testament scripture you personaly reject and explain why?

I don't follow things personally, I just follow what the Qur'an says :)

Vbr exactly what portion of an Old testament book such as Daniel does Islam consider true and correct?

We are not allowed to follow any other book except the Qur'an, that is what Allah swt commaned us .

Please explain Why you reject any and all scripture in the book of Daniel from the Christian Old Testament.

same thing as the above answer, and if u raise the question "well, why then you believe Qur'an is the only true guidance book", then I think there are some threads already in this forum , disscusing the authencity of Qur'an, and there a lot of articles on Internet too, but even without any article, logically it can be seen far that Qur'an is really the true book.

Peace.

[vpb]

I can't talk about about the Book of Ruth,cuz I am not familiar with it but I know one thing that it is not accepted in Islam (from my point), bc as I mentioned above, Qur'an is the only word of God (preserved) and no other book is compared to it, bc all other scriptures have been changed.

[nimrod]

Vpb "We are not allowed".

Yes, you are allowed, not only that but..... YOU will be held accountable for not questioning what you accept.

Awaiting answers and yet confused.

Thanks
Nimrod

[vpb]

nimrod, You judging from your point of view, but I am repeating again that Allah swt has commanded us to follow only one book sent by him (the Qur'an), and why not the other scriptures, because as they are altered by people through ages and that's why they are not perfect any more, they are not the complete word of God as they used to be when they were revealed, and that's why Qur'an was sent to correct the previous scriptures by (Moses,Jesus ...pbut)

Yes, you are allowed, not only that but..... YOU will be held accountable for not questioning what you accept.

do you have evidence from Qur'an that we are allowed to follow other scriptures except the Qur'an? I would suggest to see a Qur'an how it looks like and read it :)

[cool_jannah]

Jesus definitely made it clear not to associate him with the Almighty.

[Al-Mu'min]

Vpb "We are not allowed".

Yes, you are allowed, not only that but..... YOU will be held accountable for not questioning what you accept.

Awaiting answers and yet confused.

Thanks
Nimrod

You are right. Allah in the Quran says to question and and understand your faith. Allah also mentioned in the Quran that the previous books were indeed authentic and where sent from Him. But a while later people started to tamper with it. So now one should look at the Bible and see the contradictions, and the tampering that Allah has talked about. Once you have done so, now you should look at the book, that Allah has sent down to corrrect those contradictions and false claims - the Quran.
Allah also said that the Quran can't be tampered with and that it will be under his protection until the day of judgement. Hence it is the final giudance of Allah to us. Not a single word has now been changed from the original 1400years later.

[Nicola]

You are right. Allah in the Quran says to question and and understand your faith. Allah also mentioned in the Quran that the previous books were indeed authentic and where sent from Him. But a while later people started to tamper with it. So now one should look at the Bible and see the contradictions, and the tampering that Allah has talked about. Once you have done so, now you should look at the book, that Allah has sent down to corrrect those contradictions and false claims - the Quran.
Allah also said that the Quran can't be tampered with and that it will be under his protection until the day of judgement. Hence it is the final giudance of Allah to us. Not a single word has now been changed from the original 1400years later.

Hiya

You say God allowed people to tamper with the Bible.
I can't understand why God would allow this to happen.

Was the Bible tampered with while Mohammed was alive or was it after his death?

whereabouts in the Koran does it say to question its?

So now one should look at the Bible and see the contradictions, and the tampering

Do you mean the contradictions within the Bible it's self or the contradictions of the two different faiths...between Islam and Christianity?

thanks

[Al-Mu'min]

Hi Nicola, peace.

Hiya

You say God allowed people to tamper with the Bible.
I can't understand why God would allow this to happen.

People have free will. Are you saying today's bible is exactly the way it was revealed? People tampered with it and Allah in the Quran corrects the misconceptions made about Jesus, Marry, and the nature of Allah himself.

Was the Bible tampered with while Mohammed was alive or was it after his death?
It was tampered with before Muhammed came and until today we on keep seeing new versions of the Bible released. It keeps getting revised. eg. The King James Bible.

whereabouts in the Koran does it say to question its?

It's what? Finish the question please.

Do you mean the contradictions within the Bible it's self or the contradictions of the two different faiths...between Islam and Christianity?
Contradictions in the Bible. The Quran has no contradictions. In fact it corrects the bible.

Peace.

[Al-Mu'min]

Hi Nicola, peace.

Hiya

You say God allowed people to tamper with the Bible.
I can't understand why God would allow this to happen.

Ans. People have free will. Are you saying today's bible is exactly the way it was revealed? People tampered with it and Allah in the Quran corrects the misconceptions made about Jesus, Marry, and the nature of Allah himself.

Was the Bible tampered with while Mohammed was alive or was it after his death?
Ans. It was tampered with before Muhammed came and until today we on keep seeing new versions of the Bible released. It keeps getting revised. eg. The King James Bible.

whereabouts in the Koran does it say to question its?

It's what? Finish the question please.

Do you mean the contradictions within the Bible it's self or the contradictions of the two different faiths...between Islam and Christianity?
Ans. Contradictions in the Bible. The Quran has no contradictions. In fact it corrects the bible.

I hope the answers are more visible now.
Peace.

[vpb]

Nicola, from my opinion, the only reason why Allah swt has given us a guarantee that Qur'an will remain unchanged forever is because as prophet Mohammed pbuh is the last messenger, then this book was going to be the last one, for people till the day of judgement, so that's why Allah swt protects it from people who want to change, because there is going to be no more prophets again to correct the scriptures.

[Nicola]

Ans. People have free will. Are you saying today's bible is exactly the way it was revealed? People tampered with it and Allah in the Quran corrects the misconceptions made about Jesus, Marry, and the nature of Allah himself

.


The bible wasn't the Bible when it was written, they were scripts, scrolls....etc and then 66books where choosen..I have no reason to doubt anything in the Bible today as fact and true. I believe it is Gods written word and he would be able to protect this truth.

Ans. It was tampered with before Muhammed came and until today we on keep seeing new versions of the Bible released. It keeps getting revised. eg. The King James Bible.

new versions are new versions, making it easlier for different people of all abilities to understand the words and meaning..besides when one is lead by the Holy Spirit while reading the Bible...it doesn't really matter which version it is..because with the Holy Spirit guiding and leading you, giving you revelaions to your mind..what it means and what the truth really is...
the meaning and truth is always the same..
What proof do we have of this tampering of different books before Mohammeds time..not the bible because that wasn't in existance then. Who messed with these scrolls which ones where tampered with and for what reason was it done.

It's what? Finish the question please.

Where does it tell people to question the Koran, to see if it's the true word of God..etc.

Contradictions in the Bible. The Quran has no contradictions. In fact it corrects the bible.

I don't believe it corrects the Bible at all. I just see two entirly different thoughts on ways to gain salvation and love from God.


Yes thanks they where a lot clearer to read...
God bless

[Nicola]

Nicola, from my opinion, the only reason why Allah swt has given us a guarantee that Qur'an will remain unchanged forever is because as prophet Mohammed pbuh is the last messenger, then this book was going to be the last one, for people till the day of judgement, so that's why Allah swt protects it from people who want to change, because there is going to be no more prophets again to correct the scriptures.

We are told in the Bible that God will pour out his spirit on men and woman who will prohecies about the endtimes, God didn't just say one man

Acts 2:14-21But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy. And I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth beneath, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and manifest day. And it shall be that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

....so for Christians...Mohammed was not the last prohect..
Also in the Bible we have all the endtime prohecies that are needed.. the Qurans prohecies are very different to the Bibles endtimes.

[vpb]

Nicola, I have repeated this before, people can read, can see the facts, 100 times that Qur'an is the word of God ,if Allah swt does not want to guide u , I can try all day so they are still gonna try to justify their own ways (follow their own desires) and if u ask why would God not want to guide them then the thing is that as long as they want to follow their own desires, God will not guide them, God does not need them, they need God, and why is this all about, is bc they have a seal on their eyes and ears , the same as the seal that seperates the sweet and salty sea, and nobody can see it.

Even if you don't look at the facts, you are going to see logically that the Qur'an is really the last scripture, I've been always trying to learn about other religions, I am not an arab or jew, so why would I care if I choose either sides? (Christianity or Islam or Judaism). And maybe u have read the Qur'an, I dont know, but if u did, I can say that you did not pay much attention to it, cuz u can see from miles that is really something miracelous, I am not trying to convince you for your beliefs, cuz everybody has his/her own brain, but if u really wanna find the straight path then just take a look at the Qur'an, compare it to the bible and pay much attention and u'll gonna see.

Peace

[Al-Mu'min]

Nicola, peace.
Thank you for your questions and interest in inter faith dialogue.

.

The bible wasn't the Bible when it was written, they were scripts, scrolls....etc and then 66books where choosen..

Yeah and today these scrolls are called the New Testament right? These scrolls don't include the OT since that book was revealed to Moses. The point is whatever they where before is irrelevant, because today these same scrolls are called the New Testament..

"I have no reason to doubt anything in the Bible today as fact and true."
Ans. Do you believe God makes mistakes? Ofcourse he doesn't. Then how do you explain the hundreds of contradictions in the Bible?Do you honestly believe sister, that everything in the Bible, is the way it was originaly revealed fromour lord? Why do you say that everything is fact when it contains so many scientifical errors? The only possible answer is that these scrolls have been tampered with by people since God is perfect.

Having said that do you think God will leave us alone on earth without a final and clear message? That final message i believe is the Quran(The final testament).

"I believe it is Gods written word and he would be able to protect this truth."
Do you think he has done a good job of protecting the Bible?

"new versions are new versions, making it easlier for different people of all abilities to understand the words and meaning"
Why does God's words need to be evaluated and re-revised? Isn't God sufficient enough to give us one clear and understandable message?

"..besides when one is lead by the Holy Spirit while reading the Bible...it doesn't really matter which version it is..because with the Holy Spirit guiding and leading you, giving you revelaions to your mind..what it means and what the truth really is..."
If it doesn't matter then why are so many different versions published?

"the meaning and truth is always the same.."
Good to know:)


"What proof do we have of this tampering of different books before Mohammeds time..not the bible because that wasn't in existance then. Who messed with these scrolls which ones where tampered with and for what reason was it done."
The timing when these scrolls where tampered with is irrelevant. The fact remains that they are today known to be anauthentic to the original. People who want to practice their own agendas and thier own way of life tampered with God's word and attributed it to Him.

"Where does it tell people to question the Koran, to see if it's the true word of God..etc."
The Quran generally asks us to seek knowledge. It encourages us to ask questions and to use our logic. It tells us to use our God given gifts (sight,brain, heart) to know understant what is the truth. The Quran tells us to reason and not to have blind faith.


"I don't believe it corrects the Bible at all. I just see two entirly different thoughts on ways to gain salvation and love from God."
I encourage you to read the Quran. It defends prophets who were unjustly and wrongly portrayed in the Bible. It defends Eve( In the bible, she is blamed for the fall of humanity), etc. If that isn't correcting, I don't know what is.


Yes thanks they where a lot clearer to read...
God bless

Peace:)

[Ahmad]

Hiya

You say God allowed people to tamper with the Bible.
I can't understand why God would allow this to happen.

Was the Bible tampered with while Mohammed was alive or was it after his death?

whereabouts in the Koran does it say to question its?




Do you mean the contradictions within the Bible it's self or the contradictions of the two different faiths...between Islam and Christianity?

thanks

Bismillah

You said that you do not understand why God would allow for the Bible to be corrupted. The point is that many do not know why God does what he does. The mind of man cannot understand the mind of God. The Qur'an and Bible explicitly states this.

Psalm 23:19 says, "Do not put your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation."

Many Christians quote and confide in Isaiah 40:8, "The grass weathers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever."

So we have two choices, if there is any discrepancy that cannot be rectified with another verse in context then we have to God broke HIS promise or it was never a part of HIS original word. I will go with the latter.

[Ahmad]

History proves that the Bible was tampered right after the departure of Jesus (P) when Paul claimed revelation. From then on the councils of Nicence, etc. Fallible human opinions on crucial aspects of the faith. Jesus'(p) nature, his mission, and his actual words.

[Ahmad]

Bismillah

You said that you do not understand why God would allow for the Bible to be corrupted. The point is that many do not know why God does what he does. The mind of man cannot understand the mind of God. The Qur'an and Bible explicitly states this.

Psalm 23:19 says, "Do not put your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation."

Many Christians quote and confide in Isaiah 40:8, "The grass weathers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever."

So we have two choices, if there is any discrepancy that cannot be rectified with another verse in context then we have to God broke HIS promise or it was never a part of HIS original word. I will go with the latter.

These contradictions are few, but crucial. And amid the dissension is Jesus(p).

[Ahmad]

We are told in the Bible that God will pour out his spirit on men and woman who will prohecies about the endtimes, God didn't just say one man



....so for Christians...Mohammed was not the last prohect..
Also in the Bible we have all the endtime prohecies that are needed.. the Qurans prohecies are very different to the Bibles endtimes.

Bismillah

Have you read the Qur'an and the traditions of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) to say what He said about the end times? I have read the Bible and I know it fluently.

Why did Allaah (swt) send this scripture, i.e Qur'an. Because the message of HIS (swt) oneness and stories of HIS prophets were altered by the minds of men.

I have spoken with my Jewish brothers and they can prove for a fact from the Bible in which you share state two very opposite points of the spectrum. The Jewish Messiah is nothing like the Christian Messiah, so they reject Jesus(p).

And Christians reject Prophet Muhammad (saw) because the Bible says something different. What is causing dissension is not the Muslims, but your Bible.

In conclusion, the Muslims accept all the Prophet's (pbut). In rejecting one we reject all. They all brought the same message, the essence of Islam. To submit to the will of God and be at peace with humanity.

Regarding, pouring of the spirit. There are three types of revelations that are poured out on humanity. I will elaborate on wahy (revelation) later.

[nimrod]

Ahmad I agree that the bible has been tampered with.

Nicola if what you claim is true, then there would only be one Christian sect today, yet that isn't what we see. (Nicola I expect that you will point out that the differences are simply due to a matter of interpretation, I would have to ask if that is the case then why do the Catholics have a different bible or the Jehovah Witness’’ or the Mormons?)

Ahmad while I agree that the Christian bible has to a degree been tampered with by dishonorable men.

Yet there is more than enough of it intact to be able to judge the correctness of a belief.

To deny that would be to make a man blameless for what he believes.

That was my point to Vpb.

Any true scripture will agree with earlier true scripture. If it doesn't it is a lie.

Jesus was empowered to work miracles yet when he said “before Moses I AM” he was somehow a liar?

I just don’t get that.

The claims Jesus made about himself agrees/completes Old Testament scripture yet somehow he is a liar?

If the Jewish people didn’t understand what he meant by declaring himself the “I AM” then why did they proceed to attempt to stone him?

God empowers no liar to work miracles.

If you disagree with scripture concerning Paul’s and the other apostle’s understandings and teachings, you have to answer as to why.

So far I have yet to see anyone post a good explanation as to the “why”.

One man walks on water and says one thing, another doesn’t and which do you believe God has given power and visions to?

I just don’t get it.

Islam must agree with all the scripture given before it or at least explain why it dismiss’ earlier scripture.

Why were the visions given to Daniel incorrect??????????

I am still studying the link Al-Mu’min provided; perhaps I will find some answers there.


Thanks
Nimrod

[Malsidabym]

History proves that the Bible was tampered right after the departure of Jesus (P) when Paul claimed revelation. From then on the councils of Nicence, etc. Fallible human opinions on crucial aspects of the faith. Jesus'(p) nature, his mission, and his actual words.

History proves that the Bible was tampered right after the departure of Jesus (P) when Paul claimed revelation

could you elaborate on this point please? what is the proof?

Fallible human opinions on crucial aspects of the faith. Jesus'(p) nature, his mission, and his actual words.

With respect, I can't help but offer this same statement in regards to the hadiths(I will leave the Quran out of it), and what is said about Muhammad. I find hadiths to say things that are not said by the Quran, and amount to fallible human opinions, on Quran teachings, and what Muhammad had actually said or meant to say.

[nimrod]

Malsidabym "With respect, I can't help but offer this same statement in regards to the hadiths(I will leave the Quran out of it), and what is said about Muhammad. I find hadiths to say things that are not said by the Quran, and amount to fallible human opinions, on Quran teachings, and what Muhammad had actually said or meant to say."

When I raised that point on another thread my posts were simply removed.

Good Luck.

Thanks
Nimrod

[Ahmad]

could you elaborate on this point please? what is the proof?

With respect, I can't help but offer this same statement in regards to the hadiths(I will leave the Quran out of it), and what is said about Muhammad. I find hadiths to say things that are not said by the Quran, and amount to fallible human opinions, on Quran teachings, and what Muhammad had actually said or meant to say.

Greetings,

The number one proof is the Bible itself. The Qur'an says, "Produce your proof if you are truthful." The Bible says, "Prove all things." You must keep in mind the isnad of the Hadiths; however, there is a science that is meticulously carried out to discern what the Prophet Muhammad (saw) said and did not say. The scholars who made this endeavor sifted through each and every ahadith that contained a weak chain and discarded it.


Study Christian History from an unbiased standpoint, and you could see texual inconsistencies and historical fallacies and methods that were used to "choose" what Book of God was worthy to be canonized. The knowledge is their for those who seek it sincerely.


Does not revelations curse those that add of subtract from the Bible? Being that revelation was composed prior to some of the other books, it still curses those who do so. So, for centuries Christians had 73 books in their Bible, and about 6 centuries ago, some say that these are not the book of God and delete them and compose a different Bible with books they have chosen?

The lack of isnad and people drawing different Canons of the Bible seem to be the problem of people saying whatever they wished. Any one would claim anything and the Bible canon seems to reflect precisely that.
With all the gory details of the Church history and the Bible are out, with no clear cut indication of the Bible and its 'inspiration', why would any Muslim even bother to read it? And above all why should a Christian missionaries would push such a dubious set of scriptures down the throat of Muslims? And above all why call it injil?

cAbdullah Ibn Mascud, the well known Companion of the Prophet(P), is reported to have said:

Do not ask the ahl al-kitab about anything (in tafsir), for they cannot guide you and are themselves in error....[43]

If Christianity has got the biographies of the people who transmitted their New Testament or Old Testament as well as their traditions, it would compete with the Islamic science of hadîth. Alas, with no isnad, who is going to believe in their Bible and what is in it? And as the illustrious teacher of Imaam Bukhari had said:

"The isnad is part of the religion: had it not been for the isnad, whoever wished to would have said whatever he liked."

[Ahmad]

Malsidabym "With respect, I can't help but offer this same statement in regards to the hadiths(I will leave the Quran out of it), and what is said about Muhammad. I find hadiths to say things that are not said by the Quran, and amount to fallible human opinions, on Quran teachings, and what Muhammad had actually said or meant to say."

When I raised that point on another thread my posts were simply removed.

Good Luck.

Thanks
Nimrod

The statement can be put foward, however, in transmission of facts that Muslims have recieved from Muhammad (saw) and Christians from the Church, supposedly from Jesus(p). There lacks the proper method of making sure that words were not placed into the mouth of these divine messengers of ALLAAH (SWT). In the history of the Bible, people have seen it fit to delete from this book and replace and some Christian scholars and historians even say that somethings were added, being that the originals lack some phrases attributed to the respected Jesus(p).

[Malsidabym]

Malsidabym "With respect, I can't help but offer this same statement in regards to the hadiths(I will leave the Quran out of it), and what is said about Muhammad. I find hadiths to say things that are not said by the Quran, and amount to fallible human opinions, on Quran teachings, and what Muhammad had actually said or meant to say."

When I raised that point on another thread my posts were simply removed.

Good Luck.

Thanks
Nimrod

If this is true then the mods are not really interested in an open honest discussion as they claim. And if that is the case then we should ask, why are we wasting our time if those in control are going to be biased and remove our side of the debate? This would be censoring and show a lack of honor and integrity. I will give the mods the benefit of the doubt on this point, and save my questions for if and when the post actually gets removed.

[Ahmad]

Ahmad I agree that the bible has been tampered with.

Nicola if what you claim is true, then there would only be one Christian sect today, yet that isn't what we see. (Nicola I expect that you will point out that the differences are simply due to a matter of interpretation, I would have to ask if that is the case then why do the Catholics have a different bible or the Jehovah Witness’’ or the Mormons?)

Ahmad while I agree that the Christian bible has to a degree been tampered with by dishonorable men.

Yet there is more than enough of it intact to be able to judge the correctness of a belief.

To deny that would be to make a man blameless for what he believes.

That was my point to Vpb.

Any true scripture will agree with earlier true scripture. If it doesn't it is a lie.

Jesus was empowered to work miracles yet when he said “before Moses I AM” he was somehow a liar?

I just don’t get that.

The claims Jesus made about himself agrees/completes Old Testament scripture yet somehow he is a liar?

If the Jewish people didn’t understand what he meant by declaring himself the “I AM” then why did they proceed to attempt to stone him?

God empowers no liar to work miracles.

If you disagree with scripture concerning Paul’s and the other apostle’s understandings and teachings, you have to answer as to why.

So far I have yet to see anyone post a good explanation as to the “why”.

One man walks on water and says one thing, another doesn’t and which do you believe God has given power and visions to?

I just don’t get it.

Islam must agree with all the scripture given before it or at least explain why it dismiss’ earlier scripture.

Why were the visions given to Daniel incorrect??????????

I am still studying the link Al-Mu’min provided; perhaps I will find some answers there.


Thanks
Nimrod

Greetings, Nimrod.

Before actually getting down to our response, let us first establish the ground rules. All Bibles in existence today tell us that Christians are taught by Jesus (pbuh) himself:
"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." Mark 12:29-30.

They are also told"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good"1 Thessalonians 5:21 and "For God is not [the author] of confusion" 1 Corinthians 14:33.

So, contrary to the teachings of many, Jesus (pbuh) did not want his followers to believe everything they were told on "blind faith." Rather, he wanted his followers to believe "with all thy mind." He wanted us to THINK in order to protect his words from corruption.

Praise be to Allaah (swt). You recognize the fact that the Bible has been tampered with. The point is if it is tampered with in little areas ( i.e. contradictory statements or mistranslation) can it not be misleading in other areas? Areas regarding faith? I seem to think so.

I do not agree with many translations of the Biblical text being that some are deceptive. For instance the KJV Bible says,

In Isaiah 45:7, the prophet describes God's creation plan when he reports that,

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.


Understandably, the NIV translators saw fit to alter the prophet's words by rendering the offensive Hebrew word rah as "disaster" instead of correctly translating it as "bad" or "evil." The NIV Bible therefore mistranslates Isaiah 45:7 to read,

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

According to Christian doctrine, Satan was the highest-ranking angel who, through his own act of spiritual defiance and outright disobedience, became the chief adversary and slanderer of God and the embodiment of evil in this world. In Christian theology God never created evil; He is only the author of righteousness and perfection, as you maintained in your question. Therefore, God could never create something as sinister as the devil himself. Rather, Satan's unyielding wickedness is the result of his own spiritual rebellion.

The fact that Jesus (p) performed miracles, (the same that the Biblical Prophet of the Torah did. Does your Bible not tell you that false prophets have gone out into the world and would perform miracles and decieve the very elect? Miracles do not prove truth according to the Bible. You are using merely your own thinking, we are speaking from the Bible and no other source, brother.

In the Book of Deuteronomy it tells how to discern a false from a true Prophet. If what they prophesize comes to pass it is from God. If otherwise, they are not.

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I (God) command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2

Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:

"..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men...." in "It is Human, Yet Divine" by W Graham Scroggie, p. 17

"It is well known that the primitive Christian Gospel was initially transmitted by word of mouth and that this oral tradition resulted in variant reporting of word and deed. It is equally true that when the Christian record was committed to writing it continued to be the subject of verbal variation. Involuntary and intentional, at the hands of scribes and editors" Peake's Commentary on the Bible, p. 633






Another Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:

"...Not so the New testament...There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history..." in "The Call of the Minaret," Kenneth Cragg, p 277

Christians are, in general, good and decent people, and the stronger their convictions the more decent they are. This is attested to in the noble Qur'an: "...and nearest among them (men) in love to the believers will you find those who say 'we are Christians': because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. And when they listen to the revelation received by the messenger (Muhammad), you will see their eyes overflowing with tears for they recognize the truth: They pray: 'Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses'." The noble Qur'an, Al-Maidah(5):82-83.

And ALLAAH knows best.

[Ahmad]

Nimrod, I will answer the rest of your post tomorrow, I am going to bed. Insha'Allah ta'ala

[Al-Mu'min]

May peace and blessings be upon you Nimrod. :)

Any true scripture will agree with earlier true scripture. If it doesn't it is a lie.

Ans. Muslims have to agree with the any previous scriptures, in the sense that they were once pure and clear without tampering. The Quran also tells us that they no longer are.

Jesus was empowered to work miracles yet when he said “before Moses I AM” he was somehow a liar?

Ans. No one is claiming he was a liar. You yourself believe that Jesus' words have been tampered with. That means you agree that that some of words in the bible are untrue right? How do you really know that these are Jesus' words?

The claims Jesus made about himself agrees/completes Old Testament scripture yet somehow he is a liar?

Study this link. It gives you all the proof you need about Bible contradictions ,authenticity, etc.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm

God empowers no liar to work miracles.

Ans. Jesus never lied. A lot of what he said was deliberatly twisted and wrongly recorded. Here the Quran correctly sets the records straight about Jesus and his relationship with God:
http://www.searchtruth.com/search.ph...earch_word=all

If you disagree with scripture concerning Paul’s and the other apostle’s understandings and teachings, you have to answer as to why.So far I have yet to see anyone post a good explanation as to the “why”.

The first link i stated above has a whole page called "exposing Paul's Lies". It is a complete link for all your questions.

One man walks on water and says one thing, another doesn’t and which do you believe God has given power and visions to?

Every prophet was was granted Miracles. Mohammed did bigger miracles but we do not wonder or do a lot of fuss about it cause we believe that all thwe miracles that prophets do are from Allah.

http://www.islamanswers.net/miracles/prophets.htm
http://www.islamanswers.net/miracles/index.htm

Everything else you asked is in the first link.Thank you.

[Al-Mu'min]

Jaza kul Allah u Khairan ya Ahmad.

[Malsidabym]

The problem is the same in every conversation of this type. muslims claim the Bible is not the word of God and has been tampered with, while the truth is many nonmuslims believe the Quran is just a book that was written by a man.
similiar claim, opposite sides.

[Al-Mu'min]

May peace be upon you brother Malsidabym.

The problem is the same in every conversation of this type. muslims claim the Bible is not the word of God and has been tampered with, while the truth is many nonmuslims believe the Quran is just a book that was written by a man.
similiar claim, opposite sides.

We have to back up our claims with proof, right brother? We Muslims have always backed up our claims with proof.

Proof as to why the Quran is the word of God and is not written by a man.
http://www.thewaytotruth.org/theholy...wordofgod.html

You proof otherwise and also proof that the Quran isn't the word of God.

Peace out.

[Nicola]

Nicola if what you claim is true, then there would only be one Christian sect today, yet that isn't what we see. (Nicola I expect that you will point out that the differences are simply due to a matter of interpretation, I would have to ask if that is the case then why do the Catholics have a different bible or the Jehovah Witness’’ or the Mormons?)

Nimrod

I thought being a Christian yourself you would have known Mormons and JW are not Christians for they do not except Jesus has the son of God but only a prophet, and Jesus tells us how to test the spirits.

1 John 4:1
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try [test] the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (4) Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. (5) They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. (6) We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."




...Mormons and JW along with other cults are not from God..But Catholics do except Jesus Christ....so do many more smaller Christian sects...so yes all Christians who except Jesus as the Christ are the bride of Christ. So are the Messanic Jews.

[nimrod]

Nicola I agree with what you have posted.

I have a reason for posting as I have on this thread.


To admit that there is a word here or there that has been changed, in the Christian bible, will not be a good enough excuse for dismissing as much scripture as some faiths have.

If a person dismiss' Danial's visions then they will have to explain why.
That is just a starting point.

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

I am still awaiting a good explaination for dismissing Danial's visions.

Thanks
Nimrod

[moujahid]

(And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in Allah and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah. They do not sell the Verses of Allah for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, Allah is Swift in account) 3:199

[moujahid]

(And when they (Christians) listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they have recognised. They say: "Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses.

And why should we not believe in Allah and in that which has come to us of the truth (Islamic Monotheism)? And we wish that our Lord will admit us (in Paradise on the Day of Resurrection) along with the righteous people (Prophet Muhammad SAW and his Companions radhiallahu'anhu)." So because of what they said, Allah rewarded them Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), they will abide therein forever. Such is the reward of good-doers.But those who disbelieved and belied Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they shall be the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire) 5:83-86

[Al-Mu'min]

Nimrod, may peace and blessings be upon you.

The Qur'an has, generally, confirmed that the books of the Torah and the Prophets were, in fact, revealed by God. In view of this general confirmation of the Qur'an, the Muslims do not reject the prophethood of the prophets mentioned in the Old Testament.

Daniel is, thus, referred to as a prophet, based upon the information entailed in the Old Testament, which is not expressly refuted by the Qur'an.

[Al-Mu'min]

Nicola I agree with what you have posted.

I have a reason for posting as I have on this thread.


To admit that there is a word here or there that has been changed, in the Christian bible, will not be a good enough excuse for dismissing as much scripture as some faiths have.

If a person dismiss' Danial's visions then they will have to explain why.
That is just a starting point.

Thanks
Nimrod

Peace brother,
and thanks for the interest.

Allah said:
"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them." (Quran 17:36

Here are other debates, evidences, proofs and other reasons to refute Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Athiesm, etc.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative.html

Please have an open heart and mind and take time to study the link properly.

May God bless you and giude you all the way.:)
Peace out.

[nimrod]

Al-Mu'min thanks for providing some common ground to work from.

I have been re-reading the thread and studying the links provided.
There have been some good questions asked about the Christian faith.

The common ground I have found on this thread is that we both agree God is One and that we are commanded to not worship anything or anyone other than God himself.

The idea of dismissing all Old Testament scripture is not prudent in gaining wisdom.

For a while I didn’t think we could get past the last one when I kept reading comments such as “I refuse to believe any word from the bible, because it has been altered, and that’s a fact”.

My eyes have grown tired from all the reading I have been doing this morning.
I will continue this post later.

May God continue to enlighten us all.

Thanks
Nimrod

[PrIM3]

according to John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

in the Old Testament people are said to have seen God like in Exodus 24:10 but no one can see God and live like in Exodus 33:20
since no one can see God as he really is, those who saw God saw him in the form he took on himself temporarily for the occasion.

[Skillganon]

[QUOTE=Nicola;238719] Nimrod

I thought being a Christian yourself you would have known Mormons and JW are not Christians for they do not except Jesus has the son of God but only a prophet, and Jesus tells us how to test the spirits.

1 John 4:1
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try [test] the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Interesting that in John, the spirit is equated with prophet's. When he is talking about spirit it is talking about prophet! and to test the Prophet!

(2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Well, we can suffice to say, Muhhamed (pbuh) confessed tha Jesus was Masih (Christ) and was of flesh, human being.

Also to note it is interesting, see Bold above, that the word spirit is given in with a capital i.e. S and not a small s.
COme back to that later!

(3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Muhhamed(pbuh) never said A. "Jesus was not the Masih (latinised to christ)", or B. that he never came, and C. That Jesus was not flesh (Human being)!

(4) Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. (5) They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. (6) We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the Spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."

Here's can you see the word the Sprit with capital S. Meaning Their is a significant Spirit, and the person is "The Spirit of truth". Why I say's the person is that, at the biginning the spirits is equated with false prophets! and now we see the Spirit of truth, let's substitute the word Spirit with prophet!

And we will get "the Prophet of truth"

...Mormons and JW along with other cults are not from God..But Catholics do except Jesus Christ....so do many more smaller Christian sects...so yes all Christians who except Jesus as the Christ are the bride of Christ. So are the Messanic Jews.

What about muslim. We do accept Jesus(pbuh) as the masih (christ)

Peace.

[SolaChristo]

May peace be upon you brother Malsidabym.



We have to back up our claims with proof, right brother? We Muslims have always backed up our claims with proof.

Proof as to why the Quran is the word of God and is not written by a man.
http://www.thewaytotruth.org/theholy...wordofgod.html

You proof otherwise and also proof that the Quran isn't the word of God.

Peace out.

Greetings,
the best proof that the koran is not the word of God is that it counterdicts the bible. either they are both wrong or one is right and the other wrong.

[Skillganon]

Greetings,
the best proof that the koran is not the word of God is that it counterdicts the bible. either they are both wrong or one is right and the other wrong.

Did someone mention bible?

Jeremiah 8:8, check it up!

[PrIM3]

[QUOTE=Skillganon;240421]

Nimrod

I thought being a Christian yourself you would have known Mormons and JW are not Christians for they do not except Jesus has the son of God but only a prophet, and Jesus tells us how to test the spirits.



Interesting that in John, the spirit is equated with prophet's. When he is talking about spirit it is talking about prophet! and to test the Prophet!


Well, we can suffice to say, Muhhamed (pbuh) confessed tha Jesus was Masih (Christ) and was of flesh, human being.

Also to note it is interesting, see Bold above, that the word spirit is given in with a capital i.e. S and not a small s.
COme back to that later!



Muhhamed(pbuh) never said A. "Jesus was not the Masih (latinised to christ)", or B. that he never came, and C. That Jesus was not flesh (Human being)!



Here's can you see the word the Sprit with capital S. Meaning Their is a significant Spirit, and the person is "The Spirit of truth". Why I say's the person is that, at the biginning the spirits is equated with false prophets! and now we see the Spirit of truth, let's substitute the word Spirit with prophet!

And we will get "the Prophet of truth"



What about muslim. We do accept Jesus(pbuh) as the masih (christ)

Peace.

according to Ephesians 6:10-22 God gives us His Armor so we may test the spirits.

Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and agianst the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

[PrIM3]

Did someone mention bible?

Jeremiah 8:8, check it up!

what are you trying to mention here?

[Skillganon]

what are you trying to mention here?

I aint mentioning anything. You tell me what does it mean?

[Nicola]

Interesting that in John, the spirit is equated with prophet's. When he is talking about spirit it is talking about prophet! and to test the Prophet!

Yes we must test the prophets words...because his words come from spirits..
We have many prophets even today...some of the words come from God...others do not...so we test these to see if the contridict Jesus in anyway..if they do they are not from God...such as JW. Mormons.

Well, we can suffice to say, Muhhamed (pbuh) confessed tha Jesus was Masih (Christ) and was of flesh, human being.

The Bible does not mean it in the way your understanding it..everyone knows Jesus was of human flesh...this is not what it means..
Do you believe that Jesus existed before He came to the earth? Do you believe that the pre-incarnate Christ became flesh? Do you believe that Jesus is Almighty God? Do you believe that the Godhead (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) became flesh?

The Jehovah witnesses believe that Michael the archangel became Jesus—they have the spirit of ANTICHRIST. Every false religion attacks or diminished the deity of Jesus Christ in one way or another. This is Satans whole purpose to lead has many away from god has possible.. Even many new perversions of the bible diminish Christ’s deity! This is the works of Satan.

The Holy S[pirit (Spirit of truth) will always lead you to Jesus..

The Holy Spirit is, of course, SPIRIT, and has never been a bodily being like Christ. There are some advantages to being just a spirit. The Spirit has no limit of time or space. The Spirit is able to work within minds and through people's activities, in the everyday realm everywhere, throughout the centuries. Jesus does what could only be done by a bodily being who is in the Spirit, while the Holy Spirit does what a bodily being can't do by itself. (Whatever the task is, all of God's Persons are at work in the task somehow.)

The Spirit draws us into the presence of Christ, even to the point of creating a relationship between us and Jesus Christ that can be so close that to speak of being in union with Him does not have to be blasphemous. The bond between us and the risen Jesus Christ is a bond sewn by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit won't live in someone who chooses to sin in spite of conscience, or who has no love in them. The Holy Spirit is not found where sin has its way.

http://www.spirithome.com/spirit2.html#promise


Even the demons knew who Jesus was.

28 When He arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met Him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”

32 He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw Him, they pleaded with Him to leave their region.

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." (James 2:19)

What about muslim. We do accept Jesus(pbuh) as the masih (christ)

"

And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with Thee, Jesus of Nazareth? Art thou come to destroy us? I know Thee who Thou art; the Holy One of God." (Luke 4:33-34)

But still they choose to obey him.





Peace.

Thank you Peace and Gods blessing to you, this is the main reason born-again Christians will never accept the Quran...because it goes against..who Jesus really is. The Holy Spirit will never lead you to the Quran...if a Christian chooses to follow the Quran, instead of Jesus' words...that is because that person has choosen to ignore the Holy Spirit.
When you have the Holy Spirit indwelling in you, you know the difference it shows you all things, gives you revelations that no human could ever know.

[vpb]

We have many prophets even today...some of the words come from God...others do not...so we test these to see if the contridict Jesus in anyway..if they do they are not from God...such as JW. Mormons.

so basicly whoever wants can be a prophet as long as he/she does not contradict Bible? what do u think about when Jesus pbuh said on the Bible that there will be another man that will come to u from another sheep? so Jesus said there will be another prophet, why now u are saying that we have many prophets? don't u think the prophet that Jesus was talking about was Mohammed pbuh?? another sheep = arab ???

[Nicola]

so basicly whoever wants can be a prophet as long as he/she does not contradict Bible? what do u think about when Jesus pbuh said on the Bible that there will be another man that will come to u from another sheep? so Jesus said there will be another prophet, why now u are saying that we have many prophets? don't u think the prophet that Jesus was talking about was Mohammed pbuh?? another sheep = arab ???

No not everyone can be a prophet..When you recieve the Holy Spirit...he will give you the prohecies..it is the Holy Spirit who will never deny Gods words...other spirits not from God will mislead you...they will mix some of the truth with lies...so we have to watch out for this..the Momons for instance... except alot of the Bible...but they do not except who Jesus really was.

The gift from God...of the Holy Spirit will indwell all men, woman who choose to except who Jesus is..the Holy Spirit brings many gifts...
Revelation Gifts - gifts that reveal something

Word of Wisdom
Word of Knowledge
Discerning of Spirits
Power Gifts - gifts that do something

Faith
Healings
Miracles
Inspiration Gifts - gifts that say something

Prophecy
Diverse Tongues
Interpretation of Tongues


http://www.christcenteredmall.com/te...ifts/index.htm

if your interested in reading about these gifts..

Jesus tells us
Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.


The other sheep are the gentils...the non-Jews...he is bring us all into his flock..so there is just one.

Jesus tells us there will be many false prophets also this is why we must test...that it doesn't go against his teaches..he doesn't actually mention one particular prophet..what some understand it to mean, Jesus is actually talking about the comforter..who is the Holy Spirit...and when you recieve this gift..you know it is not a human, you know it is inside you..it is supernatural.
this is the gift born-again Christians recieve.

God Bless

[vpb]

who do u think was really the prophet that Jesus pbuh was talking about?? prophet Mohammed pbuh was an arab (different sheep that Jesus pbuh talked about) and he really supported the message of Jesus (not the message that is known today). Why would prophet Mohammed pbuh talk good about Jesus and support his message to worship one God??

"And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Did thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden."
(5.116)

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him."
(112)

[nimrod]

A plain spoken prediction of Jesus’ virgin birth.

Isaiah 7:10-16 (New International Version)

10 Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz, 11 "Ask the LORD your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights."
12 But Ahaz said, "I will not ask; I will not put the LORD to the test."
13 Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 15 He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. 16 But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.


What will this child bring about:

Isaiah 9:1-3
To Us a Child Is Born

1 Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan-
2 The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death
a light has dawned.
3 You have enlarged the nation
and increased their joy;
they rejoice before you
as people rejoice at the harvest,
as men rejoice
when dividing the plunder.

What will this child be called:

Isaiah 9:6-7

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

What will be his future:

Daniel 7:9-14
9 "As I looked,
"thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.
11 "Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Explanation for this part of the vision:

Daniel 7:26-28

26 " 'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'
28 "This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to myself."

How does God allow this worship of anyone other than Himself?
After all we all know God is One:

Isaiah 45:5-6

5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.

God is One, that is made clear time and time again through out scripture.
Different faiths have interpreted the “One” to mean different things.

One thing that should be clear to anyone is that God forbids worshipping Idols or men or Angels.

We are taught to test the spirits. Some interpret that to mean to test a prophet and some interpret it to mean to test any spirit that may present a message or vision.

I believe both interpretations are correct.

Some have said how can God be 3 and yet be 1?
Some have denied Jesus as God even though we see Old Testament scripture showing that he will be worshipped.

How can Jesus be called Almighty God if he isn’t God?

He can’t.
I am not necessarily saying the trinity does exists or doesn’t exist, we aren’t given enough knowledge in this life time to know.

The Bible say’s God has a 7 fold spirit. What is the complete meaning of that description?
If you are going to speak from authority you should be able to explain it.

If you reject New Testament scripture then let’s go to more Old Testament:

Ezekiel 1:4-19 (New International Version)

4 I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north—an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5 and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man. All four of them had faces and wings, 9 and their wings touched one another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.
10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. 11 Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out upward; each had two wings, one touching the wing of another creature on either side, and two wings covering its body. 12 Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went. 13 The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightning flashed out of it. 14 The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightning.
15 As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. 16 This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. 17 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not turn about as the creatures went. 18 Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around.
19 When the living creatures moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the living creatures rose from the ground, the wheels also rose. 20 Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. 21 When the creatures moved, they also moved; when the creatures stood still, they also stood still; and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.

Let’s look at verse 10 and you explain a few things for me “10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle”.

Now is these creatures are four in number. I will ignore that for the time being because it would only serve to muddy the waters.

What I want to focus on is this:

Each creature has four faces. Let’s just say for the sake of having an example of things existing outside our earthly examples that we pretend that there is but one of these creatures and it is god. (I know it’s not, but humor me).

Now we can say God is ONE. We can also say God is Four.
Is one Face of God any less God than any other Face?
Is One face dominant over the three other faces? (Scripture say’s that when it moves. It moves straight ahead. It doesn’t say that three faces turn this way or that way to see which is the correct direction).

Let’s assume that the Four Faced creature has a spirit/soul, that like all other souls is un-seen, and that being is God so the spirit has to be Holy. Does that now make it 5 in 1?

Answer these questions with scripture and then you can speak with authority on the subject.

If a spirit ever comes to you in the middle of a fast with visions concerning if God is One or God is Three or if God is Seven Fold, test him with those questions.

If you or the spirit can’t answer those questions then neither has any place speaking with authority and saying Jesus wasn’t/isn’t God.

I hope this post isn’t against the rules, but I can’t think of a better way of showing what I am trying to show.

May God continue to en-lighten us all, amen.

Thanks
Nimrod

[Nicola]

You show it perfectly Nimrod
thank you

[Al-Mu'min]

Brother Nimrod.

The sources of your arguments below is the Bible. The problem with qouting the bible is that you know it has alterations. For almost every fact it states, it contradicts itself elsewhere. So my question to you is: How do you know if what you are stating is devine or fabricated?

Let me qoute the Quran:

A plain spoken prediction of Jesus’ virgin birth.

Here is what the Quran says about the birth:
"When the angel said, "Mary, god gives you a good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, -high honoured shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to God. He shall speak to men in the cradle, and of age, and righteous he shall be, "lord" said Mary "How shall I have a son, seeing no mortal has touched me? "Even so, he said "God creates what He will".

When he decrees a thing He but say to it, "Be", and it is. (Al-Imran 3:45-47)

In a chapter (Surah) entitled "Maryam" (Mary), the Quran tells us how Mary gave birth to her son, and how people accused her when she brought the child home:

"Then she brought the child to her folk, carrying him, and they said, "Mary, you have surely committed a monstrous thing. Sister of Aaron, your father was not a wicked man, nor your mother a woman unchaste. Mary pointed to the child; but they said, 'Hoe shall we speak to one who still in the cradle, a little child. And he said, 'Lo, I am God's servant, God has given me the Book and made me a Prophet Blessed He has made me ,wherever/may be; and hi has enjoined me to prayer, and to give the alms so long as I live, and likewise to cherish my mother; He has not made me arrogant and wicked. Peace be upon me, the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I am raised up a live. "Maryam 19:29-33)

What will this child bring about:

Quran 5;46
''And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah''

Q: 5:110
Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

Q:57:27
Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our apostles: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of Allah. but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors.
Q:43:63
When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me
Q:61:6
And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

What will this child be called:

Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

What will be his future:

And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way

How does God allow this worship of anyone other than Himself?
After all we all know God is One

He doesn't.
Q: Chapter 113:
Say: He is Allah, The One and Only
Allah, The Independent
He begets not, and nor was He begotten
And there is none comparable to Him

God is One, that is made clear time and time again through out scripture.

Agreed.

Different faiths have interpreted the “One” to mean different things

One means one....i think.

One thing that should be clear to anyone is that God forbids worshipping Idols or men or Angels.

Yes. Jesus was a man and the Holy Spirit was and Angel (Gabriel). And yet they are worshipped.

We are taught to test the spirits. Some interpret that to mean to test a prophet and some interpret it to mean to test any spirit that may present a message or vision.

Good. Since you believe a prohet was coming, and Mohammed claims to be a prophet, have you tested him? If so what do you think your conclusions of him are?

Some have said how can God be 3 and yet be 1?
Some have denied Jesus as God even though we see Old Testament scripture showing that he will be worshipped.

Jews follow the old Testament. Why don't they worship him?

I am not necessarily saying the trinity does exists or doesn’t exist, we aren’t given enough knowledge in this life time to know

Exactly. Show me in the bible where it says "trinity". But I disagree with you when you say that we where not given enough knowledge in this lifetime. Why would God leave us alone without enough knowledge about him? I don't believe our Lord works in mysterious ways.
You say we aren't given enough knowledge, you tell me when you expect we will.

The Bible say’s God has a 7 fold spirit. What is the complete meaning of that description?

You tell me. Shouldn't you know what the Bible describes? You follow it don't you? What God looks like is beyond our comprehension.

If you reject New Testament scripture then let’s go to more Old Testament:

By the way. We don't reject niether the old or new testament. They where both books from God before people corrupted them.

Now is these creatures are four in number. I will ignore that for the time being because it would only serve to muddy the waters.

Good, i just took a shower.:happy:

What I want to focus on is this:
Each creature has four faces. Let’s just say for the sake of having an example of things existing outside our earthly examples that we pretend that there is but one of these creatures and it is god. (I know it’s not, but humor me).Now we can say God is ONE. We can also say God is Four.
Is one Face of God any less God than any other Face?
Is One face dominant over the three other faces? (Scripture say’s that when it moves. It moves straight ahead. It doesn’t say that three faces turn this way or that way to see which is the correct direction).Let’s assume that the Four Faced creature has a spirit/soul, that like all other souls is un-seen, and that being is God so the spirit has to be Holy. Does that now make it 5 in 1?Answer these questions with scripture and then you can speak with authority on the subject.

Quran is part of the scripture and this is a summary of what it says about God/Allah.
1.He is the one God, Who has no partner.
2.Nothing is like Him. He is the Creator, not created, nor a part ofHis creation.
2.He is All-Powerful, absolutely Just.
3.There is no other entity in the entire universe worthy of worship besides Him.
3.He is First, Last, and Everlasting; He was when nothing was, and will be when nothing else remains.
4.He is the All-Knowing, and All-Merciful,the Supreme, the Sovereign.
5.It is only He Who is capable of granting life to anything.
6.Allah knows what is in our hearts.

If a spirit ever comes to you in the middle of a fast with visions concerning if God is One or God is Three or if God is Seven Fold, test him with those questions.

Why hasn't any of the Christians tested the dozens of people who came after Jesus and claimed to be prophets with these questions?
And speaking of prophets.. if Jesus was/is God, then why would he need to send us another prophet? Isn't his second coming sufficient? Isn't his Bible his final word? Why does he need to send us another prophet? To correct his message perhaps?

If you or the spirit can’t answer those questions then neither has any place speaking with authority and saying Jesus wasn’t/isn’t God.

Muslims only claim what thier Lord claims.Isn't He a sufficient enough authority? In other words we believe Jesus was a prophet because Allah tells us to.

I hope this post isn’t against the rules, but I can’t think of a better way of showing what I am trying to show.

Your questions are relevant and I understand what you are trying to show.

May God continue to en-lighten us all, amen.

Ameen.

Peace.

[nimrod]

Al-Mu' min show me why you think the scripture I used was tampered with.

Show me how you think the scripture should read and why.


Thanks
Nimrod

[Al-Mu'min]

Nimrod,
Peace.
Im speaking of the bible in general. The parts you qouted could perfectly be devine yet they could perfectly be fabricated. I wasn't saying that what you stated above is untrue. I was just saying there was a chance it could've been fabricated and in that sence it isn't 100% factual enough to debate over.
If Christians knew what specific parts of the bible where tampered, then atleast they could follow the part which isn't. But no one knows. As far as Muslims go, we just don't agree with whatever is contradicory to the Quran. The rest is O.K.

[Nicola]

nimrod, You judging from your point of view, but I am repeating again that Allah swt has commanded us to follow only one book sent by him (the Qur'an), and why not the other scriptures, because as they are altered by people through ages and that's why they are not perfect any more, they are not the complete word of God as they used to be when they were revealed, and that's why Qur'an was sent to correct the previous scriptures by (Moses,Jesus ...pbut)


do you have evidence from Qur'an that we are allowed to follow other scriptures except the Qur'an? I would suggest to see a Qur'an how it looks like and read it :)

The words of the Lord are perfect in truth and justice;
there is NONE who can change His words
He both heareth and knoweth.

-- Sura 6:115
None can change the words of God;

-- Sura 6:34
There is no changing the words of God;
that is the mighty triumph.

Sura 10:64
And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord,
there is none who can alter His words;
and you shall not find any refuge besides Him.

Sura 18:27
He revealed upon you this book with a just purpose, confirming the [predictions of the] scriptures before it, and He revealed the Torah and the Injil. (3:3)

Indeed messengers have been rejected before you as well. However, they persevered in the face of being rejected and in the face of being persecuted until Our help came to them. And, indeed, no one can alter the words of God. You have already heard of some of the accounts of these messengers. (6:34)

I believe God told Mohammed otherwise...to what Muslims believe now.

[Muslim Knight]

Nicola, so you now believe Quran as the word of God?

[Nicola]

Okay, Abdul Majid, your evidence has shown that Jesus claimed He was not God. However, Nicola here (who was quoting those verses from the Bible, thus the reason she used the the quote tags), has shown evidence that Jesus implied that He was God.

It is my belief that He was just really humble, and was just saying that He wasn't God, when He really was.

Yes your right, Jesus did humble himself, when we understand the Bible it becomes very clear, this was his message, put everyone before yourself.. he chose to make himself lowly, born in a stable, he chose to be poor, he chose to clean his disciples feet, he choose to die for us.....this is what we as Christians should do also
God first and secondly everyone else before ourselves. Just like Jesus did..

[Muslim Knight]

Yes your right, Jesus did humble himself, when we understand the Bible it becomes very clear, this was his message, put everyone before yourself.. he chose to make himself lowly, born in a stable, he chose to be poor, he chose to clean his disciples feet, he choose to die for us.....this is what we as Christians should do also
God first and secondly everyone else before ourselves. Just like Jesus did..

What are you saying, that God should be humble? To what end? It ill befits the majesty of God.

[Nicola]

Sura 18:27
He revealed upon you this book with a just purpose, confirming the [predictions of the] scriptures before it, and He revealed the Torah and the Injil. (3:3)

I understand the Injil is the NT...and doesn't the Quran state Gods word cannot be altered...
Yet today Muslims claim...God allows the Bible to be tampered with.

[42:15] This is what you shall preach, and steadfastly maintain what you are commanded to do, and do not follow their wishes. And proclaim: "I believe in all the scriptures sent down by GOD. I was commanded to judge among you equitably. GOD is our Lord and your Lord. We have our deeds and you have your deeds. There is no argument between us and you. GOD will gather us all together; to Him is the ultimate destiny."

29:46] Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."

yet you call us un-believers..

[10:94] If you have any doubt regarding what is revealed to you from your Lord, then ask those who read the previous scripture. Indeed, the truth has come to you from your Lord. Do not be with the doubters

Mohammed believed the OT and NT...and also No one can alter Gods word.

Unless you believe the Bible is not the word of God in that case it can be altered..

[Al-Mu'min]

Yes Nicola you are right in the sence that we should be humble. But the lord shouldn't be humble to us. He created you and me, and is our Cherisher and Protecter.

[Nicola]

What are you saying, that God should be humble? To what end? It ill befits the majesty of God.

The whole purpose of man-kind was for God to have fellowship...he created man for very this reason. He loves everyone and wants fellowship with us all...He doesn't want repetative prayer, but real fellowship..Jesus tells us that. He wants a relationship with us. Do we deserve it...No

Man ruined this fellowship with God by falling to sin..God turns away from sin...because he is so Holy and pure, He even forsake Jesus on the cross when he took all our sins into himself.....

Because of that selfless sacrifice..God found a new way in which we can have true fellowship with him again...like before the falling of man-kind..This is what born-again Christians have today. God called Abraham his friend.

His word (Jesus Christ)..was very humble...The only way we can have that fellowship, true fellowship is if we humble ourselves again to God, like Jesus showed us he put everyone before himself....and this is what we should be doing also to recieve Gods blessings and friendship.

[Al-Mu'min]

Dear Nicole,
MAy peace and blessings be upon you. You raise a very good question.

God in those verses is talking about the Quran. Over 1400 not a single letter has been altered:

Verily, those who disbelieved in the Reminder (i.e. the Quran) when it came to them (shall receive the punishment). And verily, it is an honourable respected Book (because it is Allahs Speech, and He has protected it from corruption, etc.). Q41:41

Look at what the Bible said:
"How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes even clearer:
"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had unfortunately turned the Bible into a lie.

See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.

The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

Now Nicola you asked: Why did Allah allow the bible to be tampered or lost right?

Let us see what Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said regarding the validity and the reliability of the Bible:

Narrated AbuNamlah al-Ansari: "When he was sitting with the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and a Jew was also with him, a funeral passed by him. He (the Jew) asked (Him): Muhammad, does this funeral speak? The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Allah has more knowledge. The Jew said: It speaks.

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Whatever the people of the Book [Jews and Christians] tell you, do not verify them, nor falsify them, but say: We believe in Allah and His Apostle. If it is false, do not confirm it, and if it is right, do not falsify it. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Knowledge (Kitab Al-Ilm), Book 25, Number 3637)"

The following two Sayings of our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him were sent to me by Yusif 65; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:

Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"

Narrated Abu Huraira: "The people of the Book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's Apostle said (to the Muslims). 'Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them, but say, 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.' ' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 460)"

As we clearly see in the above Sayings of our beloved Prophet peace be upon him, the source that the Jews and Christians use (i.e. the Bible or any other religious source such as their Popes', Rabbis or other religious people's verdicts) must be ignored because it is not reliable. As we've seen in the above introduction, the man-made scribes (laws) had corrupted the Bible and turned it "into a lie" (Jeremiah 8:8).

According to Islam, Allah Almighty (GOD Almighty) in the Bible promised those who try to tamper His Words in the Bible to face hell fire, because He knew that it was going to happen. He gave the people of the book (Jews and Christians) a chance/test and they simply blew it!. Today, there is no one Bible!. The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc... Look at Noble Verse 5:13 from the Noble Quran: "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)." Israel, when it lost Allah Almighty's grace, began to sin against truth and religion in three ways: (1) they began to misuse Scripture itself, by either taking words out of their right meaning, or applying them to things for which they were never meant; (2) in doing so, they conveniently forgot a part of the Message and purpose of Allah; and (3) they invented new deceits to support the old ones.

Let us look at Noble Verse 5:41 "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment."

Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran on the other hand, did promise that He will personally guard the Noble Quran from corruption. He never promised hell fire to anyone who tries to tamper His words in the Noble Quran. He will guard it Himself; "We (Allah) have, without a doubt, sent down the Message (The Quran); and We (Allah) will assuredly Guard it [from corruption]. (The Noble Quran, 15:9)." Today we have only one Arabic Noble Quran.

May Allah Giude us all.
Ameen.

Peace out.

[Skillganon]

Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

See red, they may be translating a name., you are forgetting other's in the bible are called "god" , even "son of god".


I give you a more astute reply later!

[Al-Mu'min]

Peace.

Continuation.

Why did the GOD of Islam allow for the "original" Bible to get corrupted or lost?

The above question has [THREE] parts, so let us see the answers
accordingly. To answer the part ["Muslims believe that the current Bible is
not all the true word of GOD, and only the Quran is"] Yes, Muslims believes
that current bible [OT &NT] is not the one[s], which God [Allaah] almighty
gave to Moses and Jesus [peace be upon them]. But it is also verified and confirmed by
Noble Qur'aan, which is the main source of Muslims' belief. If you read OT,
NT, and Noble Qur'aan, it will become obvious that all missing links in the
bible are found in Noble Qur'aan and it makes undeniable sense. That is why
once one explore the Noble Qur'aan with its entirety in almost all cases it
is inevitable for him/her to not say the Shahada.

To respond to the second part of question ["If so, then why did the GOD of
Islam allow for His Words to get corrupted in the Bible?"] "If so" is
hardly the case here, beside that one cannot blame the God [Allaah] The
Creator, all Knower, and all Seer of all heavens and earth for allowing His
words to be corrupted. Such blame ONLY represents a typical frivolous
product liability lawsuit mentality. That will not work in this UNIQUE
case, because the God [Allaah], has already replaced the abused and
tempered [by human] product with far SUPERIOR [product] the Final
Revelation *****THE NOBLE QUR'AAN***** Which by the way is another
testament of God's existence that He not only can save His word, but again
He can give mankind a chance to correct himself and follow his true word
[The Noble Qur'aan] to be saved. Because God [Allah] is the Most Beneficent
and Most Merciful.

To answer the last part of question ["or why did He allow for the original
copy of the Bible to be lost?"]. Again in this part we see the frivolous
product liability lawsuit mentality. Having said that God [Allaah] did not
allow [original] copy to be lost. It was the keepers of bible[OT & NT] who
tempered it and hide many facts that resulted in current bible not making
any sense. Which by the way is also confirmed by God [Allaah] in Noble
Qur'aan and I quote:

005.015
YUSUFALI: O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger,
revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over
much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new)
light and a perspicuous Book, -
PICKTHAL: O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you,
expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture,
and forgiving much. now hath come unto you light from Allah and plain
Scripture,
SHAKIR: O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you
making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over
much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;

Followed by God [Allaah] emphasizing in Noble Qur'aan [next verse]:

005.016
YUSUFALI: Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of
peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the
light,- guideth them to a path that is straight.
PICKTHAL: Whereby Allah guideth him who seeketh His good pleasure unto
paths of peace. He bringeth them out of darkness unto light by His decree,
and guideth them unto a straight path.
SHAKIR: With it Allah guides him who will follow His pleasure into the ways
of safety and brings them out of utter darkness into light by His will and
guides them to the right path.

Bottom line is that as question itself indicates by use of [words]
"original copy" which is highly inappropriate in this case. However,
implication by virtue of question is absurd. Because FORENSIC AND EMPIRICAL
RESULTS proves that MASTER COPY [or SOURCE CODE] was never lost nor
tempered. It was and it has always been in possession of God [Allaah] the
Creator of all heaven and earth. It further proves the existence of ONE and
ONLY God [Allaah] the all Knower and all Seer who way ahead foretold to
Jews and Christians in OT and NT about the arrival of Prophet Muhammed
[saw] and commanded Jews and Christians to follow Prophet Muhammed [saw].

Noble Qur'aan 3:64! Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews
and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we
worship none but All&#226;h, and that we associate no partners with Him, and
that none of us shall take others as lords besides All&#226;h[]. Then, if they
turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

Noble Qur'aan 3:85! And whoever seeks a religion other than Isl&#226;m, it will
never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the
losers[].

Example: If Johnny writes a letter to Marry Joe and saves it. That Marry
Joe later edits and/or modify claiming to be original letter by Johnny.
That can be proven wrong by Johnny because he got the master copy. So to
make Marry Joe looks like a fool and a liar all Johnny has to do is to give
another copy of Jean Doe to show the people that she [Marry Joe] is lying.
It pretty bad, for Marry Joe, isn't it?

I hope that answers your question.
Lets pray for better understanding.
Peace out.

[god]

"And Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.'" [Mark 10:18]

he was testing them to see how they sized him up

[Skillganon]

Explanation for this part of the vision:

Daniel 7:26-28

26 " 'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'
28 "This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to myself."

How does God allow this worship of anyone other than Himself?
After all we all know God is One:

Isaiah 45:5-6

5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.

The Word worship.
Ancient Hebrew Vocabulary
Worship (shehhah)

In our modern western culture worship is an action directed toward God and God alone. But this is not the case in the Hebrew Bible. The word shehhah is a common Hebrew word meaning to prostrate oneself before another in respect. We see Moses doing this to his father in law in Exodus 18:7. When the translators translate the word shehhah they will use the word "worship" when the bowing down is directed toward God but as "obeisance" or other equivalent word when directed toward another man. There is no Hebrew word meaning worship in the sense that we are used to using it in our culture today. From an Hebraic perspective worship, or shehhah is the act of getting down on ones knees and placing the face down on the ground before another worthy of respect.

You see the word worship has been wrongly translated!
Thank's .

[Nicola]

So what are you saying Nicola? We know for a fact that the Bible has been altered. Are you implying God is wrong?

no I am saying this:

Sura 6:115
None can change the words of God;

Sura 6:34
There is no changing the words of God;
that is the mighty triumph.

Look at what the Bible said:
"How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes even clearer:
"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

10:94] If you have any doubt regarding what is revealed to you from your Lord, then ask those who read the previous scripture. Indeed, the truth has come to you from your Lord. Do not be with the doubters

Jeremiah was written before Mohammed yet...Mohammed had no problems believing it.

So is this a contridiction?

Sura 6:115
None can change the words of God;

-- Sura 6:34
There is no changing the words of God;
that is the mighty triumph.

We have

Greek manuscripts of the NT for comparison with our present NT..
1. Codex Vaticanus (AD 325-350) perserved in the Vatican Library and containing nearly the whole bible
2. Codes Sinatiticus (AD350), now in the British Museum. It contains nearly all the NT and over half the OT
3. Codex Alexandrinus (AD400)also in the British Museum, containing almost the whole Bible
4. Codex Ephraemi (5th Century) located in the Bibliotheque Nationale, Paris. Containing the whole of the NT apart from 2Thessalonians and 2John.
5. Codes Bezae (ca 450) in the Cambridge University Library. It contains the Gospels and Acts in both Greek and Latin.
6. Codex Washingtonensis (ca450) contains the four Gospels.
7. Codex Claromontanus (6th century), contains Paul's letters in Greek and Latin.
8. The Chester Beatty Papyri (AD200) in Dublin University, and owned in part by the University of Michigan. Three of these papyrus codices contain large portions of the NT
9. Bodmer Papyrus 11 (ca. 150-200), the most important discovery of NT manuscripts since the purchase of the Chester Beatty Papyri.

All these documents teach the same doctrines as our Gospels and NT.



This below is an index of all files in the EWTN "Patristics" Document Library as of 8/18/2005 sorted by library and title

All these writings 1003 of them are the same has the OT and NT of today.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/indexes/PATRISTC.htm

I offer you the facts that the Bible as not been changed...with the link above..plus the other evidence of the NT dating back from AD150..which you can read for yourself through a google search...
I could give you list after list but unless people are willing to study it is of little point..
We also have the evidence of the dead sea scrolls.
The Hebrew manuscripts of the OT dated from AD900, amongst these scrolls were two copies of Isaish, they reveal word for word accuray in 95% of the text 5% of various spelling mistakes, fragments of Deuteronomy and Samuel these also do not differ in doctrine or teaching...They do not affect the message of revelation in any way.

Please provide your evidence (fact) that you know Bible is corrupt and which years this corruption happen and why?

[Al-Mu'min]

Peace Nicole.
Before i read the link above, i want to ask you if you know about the Nicene council?

Peace out.

[Al-Mu'min]

Jeremiah was written before Mohammed yet...Mohammed had no problems believing it.
So is this a contridiction?

Peace again.

Why do you think this is a contradicition? It is commonly known that Mohammed and Muslims believe in all the scriptures before the Quran( ie; Injeel, Torah, and Zubur or Psalms).

Peace out.

[HeiGou]

Why do you think this is a contradicition? It is commonly known that Mohammed and Muslims believe in all the scriptures before the Quran( ie; Injeel, Torah, and Zubur or Psalms).

Well that is a statement that conceals as much as it reveals. More accurately, Muhammed and Muslims believe in a lot of scriptures which no longer exists and which they claim are the real versions of the New Testament, Torah etc. They are required to believe in these as a matter of faith because they have not ever seen them or studied them.

[god]

Al-Mu' min show me why you think the scripture I used was tampered with

it is true the bible has been tampered w. primarily by moslems

[god]

Why do you think this is a contradicition? It is commonly known that Mohammed and Muslims believe in all the scriptures before the Quran( ie; Injeel, Torah, and Zubur or Psalms)

get your story straight & quit talking out of both sides of your mouth. do or dont not moslems believe in the bible. & if not this bible which bible do ye believe in

[Nicola]

Peace again.

Why do you think this is a contradicition? It is commonly known that Mohammed and Muslims believe in all the scriptures before the Quran( ie; Injeel, Torah, and Zubur or Psalms).

Peace out.

Because the Quran state the word of God cannot be altered...

yet now Muslims say it can.

Also yes I know of the Nicene council, I also know there are plenty more books.
1, 2, Enoch, Book of Jasher, Book of Jubilees just because these books are not in their Canonized Bible...does not stop us from reading or believing them.

[god]

O men! Fear your Lord

the fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom but not the end of it. perfect love casts out fear

[Kittygyal]

O men! Fear your Lord

the fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom but not the end of it. perfect love casts out fear

that is so true bro :happy:

take care

[Al-Mu'min]

Because the Quran state the word of God cannot be altered...

yet now Muslims say it can.

Peace Nicola.
Didn't i explain this in detail in the last page?

[Al-Mu'min]

get your story straight & quit talking out of both sides of your mouth. do or dont not moslems believe in the bible. & if not this bible which bible do ye believe in

Dear brother,
There is no need to be rude. Just ask your questions politely and we will try to answer them to the best of our capabilities.
Please read this:
What do Muslims Believe:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Islam/Wh...slims_Believe/

Come back and we'll dialogue.
Peace.

[Kittygyal]

bro god. i think you need to know the difference between wht muzlims believe and what christians believe cause i know there is a way big difference, like as muzlims they don't believe that Jesus is the son of god whereas the christians do so there you go there is a bid difference so i would suggess if you understad the differences what muzlims believe and what christian believe :)

if you have any questions plz feel free to ask :p

take care

[Al-Mu'min]

Well that is a statement that conceals as much as it reveals. More accurately, Muhammed and Muslims believe in a lot of scriptures which no longer exists and which they claim are the real versions of the New Testament, Torah etc. They are required to believe in these as a matter of faith because they have not ever seen them or studied them.

Thank you for the correction. I wouldv'e completed the statement but since it was mention so many times in this thread, you'd think people will get it by now.:okay:

[Al-Mu'min]

[QUOTE=Nicola;242323]
I offer you the facts that the Bible as not been changed..QUOTE]

It's easy to write something. It's hard to prove it.
Here is the proof that the Bible is altered:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm

Please read it. Verify it. And try to refute it.

[Kittygyal]

well bro al-mu'min ofcourse the bible has been changed and sis nicole i suggess you to read the bible from a to b because believe me i've converted i know it has and if you don't believe me you can ask the priest!

and also bro al-mu'min has gave you the proove and also sis i suggess you find your proove and also then post cause its really hard to believe

take care :)

[Al-Mu'min]

Salamu Alaikum.
Congratulations on your reversion sis.
May Allah guide us all. Ameen.

[Nicola]

Peace Nicola.
Didn't i explain this in detail in the last page?

You have quoted the Quran...what other source do you have.

this is not proof at all..

Example: If Johnny writes a letter to Marry Joe and saves it. That Marry Joe later edits and/or modify claiming to be original letter by Johnny.
That can be proven wrong by Johnny because he got the master copy. So to
make Marry Joe looks like a fool and a liar all Johnny has to do is to give
another copy of Jean Doe to show the people that she [Marry Joe] is lying.
It pretty bad, for Marry Joe, isn't it?

fair enough but Johnny isn't God...and the Quran states a number of times Gods words cannot be altered...The Bible is Gods word..

How about My example...Johnny wites Mary a letter.. Mary dies...shows everyone she knows, her letter..all Marys family and friends know exactly what that letter states, but then someone named Peter comes along years later and writes a story about that letter...gets a lot of his facts wrong and contridicts things, that are in the orginal letter..

Peter can't get Marys family or friends to believe him...because they still have the letter ..So peter starts telling other people that Marys family have changed the letter.....yet Peter shows no proof of these changes because there aren't any.....but Peter expects everyone to believe him and many do. Even though they have the chance to read the orginal one, they still believe Peter.

who do you believe?...Marys friends and family...or Peter.

[Kittygyal]

Salamu Alaikum.
Congratulations on your reversion sis.
May Allah guide us all. Ameen.

thanks you bro :thankyou:

may god bless you too and your family :happy:

bro i just hate it when people don't have proof and just say stuff cause thats what they believe :rant:

take care

[Nicola]

well bro al-mu'min ofcourse the bible has been changed and sis nicole i suggess you to read the bible from a to b because believe me i've converted i know it has and if you don't believe me you can ask the priest!

and also bro al-mu'min has gave you the proove and also sis i suggess you find your proove and also then post cause its really hard to believe

take care :)

Proof from the Quran does not count.
You know it's been changed fair enough...without the Qurans assistance I hope.
show me your evidence please.
Which parts have been changed
When
Who by
Why

It's to easy to say...this and thats been changed without back up.

I am being lead by the Holy Spirit and he does not lie...He is the Spirit of Truth..
Why should I have to ask a priest anything.....The authourity of a priest comes from man not God.

[Kittygyal]

Proof from the Quran does not count.
You know it's been changed fair enough...without the Qurans assistance I hope.
show me your evidence please.
Which parts have been changed
When
Who by
Why

It's to easy to say...this and thats been changed without back up.

I am being lead by the Holy Spirit and he does not lie...He is the Spirit of Truth..
Why should I have to ask a priest anything.....The authourity of a priest comes from man not God.

well sis the proof that bro al mu'min has gave you shows it all its just that you don't believe it sis cause at the end of the day if you don't believe this then am so sorry to say that you think were lieing:heated: :heated:

please sis refer to what bro al mu'min said cause like i said with out proof theres no poin saying stuff that is NOT true please try to understand :)

and i understand as you a christian is hard to believ cause it was hard for me but then again alot of christian believe that the bible was changed

but then again sis what can i say if you don't believe this :heated:

take care

[Skillganon]

Proof from the Quran does not count.
You know it's been changed fair enough...without the Qurans assistance I hope.
show me your evidence please.
Which parts have been changed
When
Who by
Why

It's to easy to say...this and thats been changed without back up.

I am being lead by the Holy Spirit and he does not lie...He is the Spirit of Truth..
Why should I have to ask a priest anything.....The authourity of a priest comes from man not God.

I give you an example of a grave addition that only been discovered, this addition cost so many lives.

I give you the reference and you check it up? OK

Here:
Go to biblegatway. Look up Mark 16:9-20 in the NIV edition.

Cool?

[Kittygyal]

bro the sis does not believe that the bible was changed so how is she suppose to believe that!

and sis may i ask do you believe that Jesus was the son of god?

take care

[Al-Mu'min]

Proof from the Quran does not count.
You know it's been changed fair enough...without the Qurans assistance I hope.
show me your evidence please.
Which parts have been changed
When
Who by
Why

It's to easy to say...this and thats been changed without back up.

I am being lead by the Holy Spirit and he does not lie...He is the Spirit of Truth..
Why should I have to ask a priest anything.....The authourity of a priest comes from man not God.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/com...ampered_qa.htm

[god]

[QUOTE=islamgyal;242423]bro god. i think you need to know the difference between wht muzlims believe and what christians believe cause i know there is a way big difference, like as muzlims they don't believe that Jesus is the son of god whereas the christians do so there you go there is a bid difference so i would suggess if you understad the differences what muzlims believe and what christian believe :)

if you have any questions plz feel free to ask :p

take care[/QUOT

i know all too well what moslems believe. i also get tired of moslem doubletalk

[Kittygyal]

[QUOTE=god;242477]

bro god. i think you need to know the difference between wht muzlims believe and what christians believe cause i know there is a way big difference, like as muzlims they don't believe that Jesus is the son of god whereas the christians do so there you go there is a bid difference so i would suggess if you understad the differences what muzlims believe and what christian believe :)

if you have any questions plz feel free to ask :p

take care[/QUOT

i know all too well what moslems believe. i also get tired of moslem doubletalk

bro but at the end of the day fair enuf but then again you to know what muzlims believe and what the don't!

take care

[Nicola]

well sis the proof that bro al mu'min has gave you shows it all its just that you don't believe it sis cause at the end of the day if you don't believe this then am so sorry to say that you think were lieing:heated: :heated:

please sis refer to what bro al mu'min said cause like i said with out proof theres no poin saying stuff that is NOT true please try to understand :)

and i understand as you a christian is hard to believ cause it was hard for me but then again alot of christian believe that the bible was changed

but then again sis what can i say if you don't believe this :heated:

take care

fair enough you have no proof other than the Quran.

[Kittygyal]

fair enough you have no proof other than the Quran.

well sis thats what i believe!

take care

[Al-Mu'min]

fair enough you have no proof other than the Quran.

Nicola,
I didn't want to repeate my self but...

Look at what the Bible said:
"How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes even clearer:
"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had unfortunately turned the Bible into a lie.

See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.

The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

Is that from the Quran?? You claim you believe in every word of the bible is true right? So will you accept it?

Please open your heart and mind and listen to what God is telling you. Verify the word of God for yourself.

Allah in the Quran says:
"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them." (Quran 17:36)

May Allah giude us all.

Peace sister.

[Kittygyal]

sis now there you go thats the proof and sis please just try to understand that the bible ''was'' changed :)

take care

[Al-Mu'min]

Dear Nimrod,

You wanted to know about Daniel in Islam:
http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets...html#post56803

I hope this answers your questions regarding prophet Daniel.

Peace out.

[Nicola]

Nicola,
I didn't want to repeate my self but...

Look at what the Bible said:
"How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes even clearer:
"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had unfortunately turned the Bible into a lie.

Firstly I need to ask you, do you understand what a scribe is?

Do you fully understand the book of Jeremiah?
and to whom he was speaking of, in these verse's?

See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.

The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

Is that from the Quran?? You claim you believe in every word of the bible is true right? So will you accept it?

Please open your heart and mind and listen to what God is telling you. Verify the word of God for yourself.

Allah in the Quran says:
"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them." (Quran 17:36)

May Allah giude us all.

Peace sister.

Deu 31:25 Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD,

Deu 31:26 "Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

Do you realise this means?...the book will be a witness, that these people will fall away from the Law of God (Bible) in years to come?

and indeed they did...fall away from Gods law and still do.

Deu 31:27 For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are. Behold, even today while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD. How much more after my death!

He is telling them here, he knows they have already fallen away from the Law of the Book and they will be more rebellious after his death...and yes they where...again..

Deu 31:28 Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears and call heaven and earth to witness against them.

And here he asks for wittness's that what he says will come true.

Deu 31:29 For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly and turn aside from the way that I have commanded you. And in the days to come evil will befall you, because you will do what is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger through the work of your hands."

Again...the book was put away...so in future years...they would understand and see how they had fell away from the Book of Law (Bible)

I really don't see how you have read these scriptures from Moses please explain, that it means...the Book of Law has been corrupted?



Thankyou for your concern...I really mean that...But I know what God is telling me...I received a vison from Jesus 2 years ago..this April and have since been lead by the Holy Spirit.....and it as changed my life forever.

So the scripture you have quoted yes I believe those. But they do not mean what you take them to mean..these scriptures do not back up your claim.

[Al-Mu'min]

Did you read all the links i gave you?

[Nicola]

Did you read all the links i gave you?

I've put them in my favs to read later...thanks

please explain how you come to understand Deuteronomy 31:25-29.

and do you know what a scribe is?

[Al-Mu'min]

I've put them in my favs to read later...thanks

please explain how you come to understand Deuteronomy 31:25-29.

and do you know what a scribe is?

Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.
This is how that verse goes:

"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deuteronomy 31:25-29)"


A scribe is someone employed to make written manuscripts and documents.

[PrIM3]

Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.
This is how that verse goes:

For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deuteronomy 31:25-29)"


A scribe is someone employed to make written manuscripts and documents.

the verse simply means that people will provoke the Lord to anger because they will worship idols.... look at 4:28 There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell.

[nimrod]

Al-Mu'min, I read your link concerning Daniel. I wanted to ask which one of the two accounts given in the link is a lie and which one is true.

Thanks
Nimrod

[vpb]

2.40. O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.

2.41. And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

2.42. And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).

Nicole, Allah swt knew that they were chaning the words, and that's why he said then that no one can change his word, and that is the Qur'an, but if u just think logically, he was just testing people, who is going to sell his words for cheap price and who not, and this is all the point of living in this life

2.37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

2.38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

2.39. "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."

there is no more to talk about this, these verses explain everything :)

[nimrod]

Skillganon I have been studying the site you cited.

This is what it say's:

The concept of "worship" as defined by Webster’s dictionary is not Hebraic in any way and is not found in the Bible. We would be better off to remove the idea of "worship" from our Biblical vocabulary and replace it with "bow down".

If I am following your arguement correctly the Hebrews had no language or word to express the thought of worshipping God verses a Idol or bowing down to a man.

Your arguement is that no where in the original Hebrew there is no way of knowing which meaning the Hebrews were using for which verse.

Is that correct?

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

Skillganon before you go much futher, could you revisit this:

What I want to focus on is this:
Each creature has four faces. Let’s just say for the sake of having an example of things existing outside our earthly examples that we pretend that there is but one of these creatures and it is god. (I know it’s not, but humor me).Now we can say God is ONE. We can also say God is Four.
Is one Face of God any less God than any other Face?
Is One face dominant over the three other faces? (Scripture say’s that when it moves. It moves straight ahead. It doesn’t say that three faces turn this way or that way to see which is the correct direction).Let’s assume that the Four Faced creature has a spirit/soul, that like all other souls is un-seen, and that being is God so the spirit has to be Holy. Does that now make it 5 in 1?Answer these questions with scripture and then you can speak with authority on the subject.

You kind of glossed over it.

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

I am sorry. The above post was meant for Al- Mu'min

Thanks
Nimrod

[Nicola]

Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.
This is how that verse goes:

"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

(Deuteronomy 31:25-29)"


As Prime already stated work of your hands...you do everything with your hands..including making false gods...this verse is not about changing the Book of the Law...The book of the Law had been locked away..no one is allowed to touch that book..only the high priests...here Moses is talking about the commom people...and all the evil they would do when he had died.
And they did.

A scribe is someone employed to make written manuscripts and documents

The verse you gave me has been taken out of context...from the whole message...Jeremiah was the first book I studied and reminded me so much of the world we live in today!

When God came to Jeremiah as a child and placed in his heart the messages to tell Gods choosen people that they must turn away from their wicked ways...and stop worshiping false gods...God told Jeremiah to tell them if they didn't change their ways...they would suffer his great wrath
Jerimah meet with great opposition..the king would not listen to him...instead the king listened to the scribes and false prohets...who told him and Gods people...everything was OK...These lying teachers where telling the people "peace, peace" although the true prophet tells them there is no peace and will be no peace.
God has announced His judgment on Jerusalem for its idolatery and disobedience. The enemies are coming and God will NOT help. This verse has nothing to do with altering the books, it has to do with teaching false practices and giving false prophecies and saying these are based on the Lord's law. The law of God which clearly speaks of punishement for sin is disregarded and the people are told about the promises of God's goodness -- which are in the Law too, but each has its conditions.

The "lying pen of the scribes" is guilty not of changing the text of the law, but of false application of it. They are giving the wrong interpreation out of personal greed and because they fear men more than God. In effect, Jeremiah says that they don't "have" the Law because they don't KEEP the Law. It is not the physical presence of the Law or of the Temple that will avert God's wrath, but only obedience to his word. They did not corrupt the physical text of it, but they "handled" it falsel as 8:8 says.

Jer 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

These scribes or false prophets would not have even been allowed anywhere near the Holy scrolls.

If the text they were working with hadn't been the Law anymore, then they could not have been accused of mishandling it.

If you can try and hire the film of Jeremiah...it will put it all into context for you...what these liars where trying to do..and what happened to them in the end.

Peace and God Bless
nic

[Al-Mu'min]

Al-Mu'min, I read your link concerning Daniel. I wanted to ask which one of the two accounts given in the link is a lie and which one is true.

Thanks
Nimrod

Nimrod,
Welcome back. Hope your fine.
This one:
http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets...al-daniel.html

Thank you.

[Al-Mu'min]

PrIM3 and Nicola,
Hello once again. Thanks for the notes.

About Detronomy, please read the whole verse carefully.

"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deuteronomy 31:25-29)"

Moses[pbuh] was talking about the book of the Law and he commanded the Levites(Jews) to take care of it(Torah). He further not how the Jews where corrupt while he was alive, and he feared that they will corrupt the book by the works of thier hands after his death. So that is why he stressed them to take care of the book.

Nicola you told me, that i shouldn't take things out of context. I didn't. In the begginng of the above verse, Moses is commanding them to take care of the Book, because as he predicted, the Jews revoked the anger of God by the works of their hands( i.e rewriting/tampering the book).

Moses is not talking about the other things people do with thier hands. That will be out of context.

I hope you have a better understanding of what I was trying to point out.

May God giude us all,
Peace and Blessings.

[Al-Mu'min]

Al-M'umin before you go much futher, could you revisit this:

What I want to focus on is this:
Each creature has four faces. Let’s just say for the sake of having an example of things existing outside our earthly examples that we pretend that there is but one of these creatures and it is god. (I know it’s not, but humor me).Now we can say God is ONE. We can also say God is Four.
Is one Face of God any less God than any other Face?
Is One face dominant over the three other faces? (Scripture say’s that when it moves. It moves straight ahead. It doesn’t say that three faces turn this way or that way to see which is the correct direction).Let’s assume that the Four Faced creature has a spirit/soul, that like all other souls is un-seen, and that being is God so the spirit has to be Holy. Does that now make it 5 in 1?Answer these questions with scripture and then you can speak with authority on the subject.

You kind of glossed over it.

Thanks
Nimrod

Brother Nimrod,
First of all, this is a very good statement and question. I thank you very much for asking. It's not O.K to just have blind faith.

In your statement above your are talking about how three things can be one and still be three right(i.e the trinity)?

Let us start and analyse this. Both the Noble Quran and the Bible claim that GOD Almighty is an Absolute One and only One:

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)"

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

Notice also how Jesus said "our God", which included him to be under GOD Almighty's creation and Divine Authority, and not someone or an entity that is equal to GOD Almighty

The Bible's New Testament also records Jesus saying: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"



If Jesus doesn't consider himself as "good", then how can any sane person put him on the same level as GOD Almighty?

I have yet to see a good answer to this one by any polytheist trinitarian.

Also, another important point to notice in Mark 10:18 is the word "alone": ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

Jesus in this verse is clearly giving exclusivity to GOD Almighty when he said "alone". If Jesus was truly part of GOD Almighty and/or the trinity lie was true, then Jesus, to say the least, would not have said that


Answering the Trinity:

Trinitarian Christians often refer to trinity as the "Holy Trinity". A very powerful statement indeed for a word that doesn't even exist, not even once, in the Bible!!

These are facts contradicting the idea of the trinity:
1- Jesus said he had no Divine Will.
2- Jesus' repetitive Prayers contradicted his very own teachings.
3- Jesus begged GOD Almighty for Mercy.
4- Jesus prostrated to GOD Almighty only once during his most desperate times! This is hypocrisy by the way.
5- GOD Almighty Created pain and death, and yet, Jesus feared them.
6- The GOD of the O.T. Punishes to death those who cursed HIS HOLY NAME. How could Jesus escape to Egypt from King Herod and still be this Mighty and Arrogant GOD?
7- In original Hebrew, "son of GOD" literally means "SERVANT OF GOD".
8- What about the authority in Heaven and Earth that was given to Jesus?
9- None of Jesus' Miracles were unique in the Bible.

I can discuss all of the nine statements above in detail if you like. Just pick out one and we can discuss it thoroughly.

After reading all of this, do you still have the slightest doubt that Jesus is only a creation of GOD Almighty and a great Prophet? Do you still believe in the biggest lie satan ever invented, which is the polytheist trinity paganism?

Embrace Islam, the True and Divine Religion of GOD Almighty, and you will be saved! Islam is very simple and requires no mediators between you and your Creator. If you believe in the Absolute One and Living GOD Almighty and associate no partners (gods, idols, human, etc...) with Him, then you have become a Muslim. You do not need to believe in satan's invented LIES about believing in a mediator (Jesus or anyone else) to be between you and your Creator. You have been given the irrevocable Divine Right to have a straight and direct relationship with GOD Almighty:

"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. (The Noble Quran, 2:186)"

"It was We Who Created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein. (The Noble Quran, 50:16)"

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

"Then Praise be to Allah, Lord of the heavens and Lord of the earth- Lord and Cherisher of all the worlds! To Him be Glory throughout the heavens and the earth: and He is Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom!. (The Noble Quran, 45:36-37)"

"Say: 'O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).' (The Noble Quran, 3:64)"

As you've also seen above, the Biblical "Son of God" is only an invented LIE about GOD Almighty having children, Divine Children. In the original Hebrew, "son of GOD" literally means "Servant of GOD". GOD Almighty Has no sons and no partners. Everything beside Him is a creation.

Towards better understanding,
peace and blessings.
Thank you.

[Skillganon]

Hey Guy's is daniel part of OT or NT?

[Kittygyal]

erm... am not sure but i think he aint not sure tho


take care

[HeiGou]

erm... am not sure but i think he aint not sure tho

What? Not mentioned in either the OT or the NT?

Daniel is mentioned in several books in the Old Testament including, of course, the Book of Daniel. And also in the Apocrypha, especially the Book of Susanna.

You can look him up here (if this is not an Anti-Islamic site?):

http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/kjv/browse.html

[Kittygyal]

aw sorry sorry my mistake ofcourse he is, am so sorry bro i just forgot :p

how can i not know that

and thanks for the link :)

take care

[Nicola]

PrIM3 and Nicola,
Hello once again. Thanks for the notes.

About Detronomy, please read the whole verse carefully.

"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Nicola you told me, that i shouldn't take things out of context. I didn't. In the begginng of the above verse, Moses is commanding them to take care of the Book, because as he predicted, the Jews revoked the anger of God by the works of their hands( i.e rewriting/tampering the book).

Please read from men who have studied the Bible for many many years,and have recieved revelations from the Holy Spirit...or ask God yourself for the revelation so you will see clearly..He will show you......The book of the Law was put away.....and put in the ark of the covenant...God would not allow just anyone to even enter the Holy of Holies besides one priest enter the Holy of Holies...once a year..let alone...God letting them tamper with his ark or his sacred words..

I know Almighty God would not allow anyone to tamper with his words...He is more Almighty than anyone who thinks they can outwit him and change his words.

Moses is not talking about the other things people do with thier hands. That will be out of context.

I have studied the subject of the Holy Temple and the Holy of Holies...please explain to me, how these people where allowed to enter there and have access to the Book of the Law?..

And also which of the laws Moses recieved from God where altered..and for what reasons?

I hope you have a better understanding of what I was trying to point out.

May God giude us all,
Peace and Blessings.[/QUOTE]

I knew before clearly what you where pointing out to me and what you meant...and thanks again.
I know you can't take it in what I am telling you, and I wouldn't expect you to...I am just telling you the way it is...Like I wouldn't try and tell a Muslim the laws in Koran...but please pray to God and wait on Him, until He reveals it to you.

God Bless

Nic

[Skillganon]

Nicola, He has a point, if you read the passage in it's context, it is talking about the book of law.

Anyway, you statment here is not an argument.

I know Almighty God would not allow anyone to tamper with his words...He is more Almighty than anyone who thinks they can outwit him and change his words.

Could it explain the accepted tampering/fabrication, as Mark 16:9-20 or
1 John 5:7.

[Kittygyal]

nicola i would just like to say when we gave you some information you want proof and then when we gave ou the proof still you don't believe it!

so we can't make it more easier for u :p

take care

[Skillganon]

Keep an eye on the Red, and bold

Daniel 7:9-14
.................................................. .................................................. ....
11 "Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Explanation for this part of the vision:

Daniel 7:26-28

26 " 'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'
28 "This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to myself."

How does God allow this worship of anyone other than Himself?
After all we all know God is One:

Keep an eye on the part's I highlighted.

Daniel 7.

[14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


[27] And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

From "serve him" to "worship him", is not that something! :rollseyes

You can check it up on the site Hegiou provided.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/k...1&byte=3297390.
I prefer KJV.

[Nicola]

Nicola, He has a point, if you read the passage in it's context, it is talking about the book of law.

Anyway, you statment here is not an argument.



Could it explain the accepted tampering/fabrication, as Mark 16:9-20 or
1 John 5:7.

I already put my point across in another post and said what Moses was referring to the books where hidden from common people, one person was allowed in the Holy of Holies once a year..you tell me when they did the tampering...
besides God is Almighty and no one can alter his Holy words..I stand by that. And it's not meant as an argument but a statement.
If you ask God he will reveal the truth to you, something that no man can do..he will reveal things to you, you never ever imagined....I come here to explain about Christianity and understand Islam that is all.

Please explain what you are referring to in Mark 16

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that testify:

Do you believe this was added above..I don't understand what you are meaning...sorry

God Bless

[Arch_warrior]

It is my belief that He was just really humble, and was just saying that He wasn't God, when He really was.

Now why would jesus confuse his ppl like that? ?????