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solid_snake
04-21-2005, 01:46 AM
they are becoming very much like non muslim populated countries. Jordan now has clubs just like in UK and girls and guys mixing and less and less girls wearing the hijab.
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Z
04-21-2005, 09:32 AM
Asalamu Alaikum

Yep, I can only talk about Jordan as my eyes have seen such a place. Short skirts, no hijaab, no modesty at all. The clubs are all over the Arab world now too. Young people from Saudi evey weekend cross the border into Bahrain and go clubbing, have one night stands and cross back over. This is what has come of the Arab youth. They say if you want to pray 5 times a day and be muslim, that's up to you. If you want to pray jumaah salaah and go clubbing afterwards and be muslim, that's up to you. Subhan Allah, such thinking they have. 'Tis all the work of the west. They intend to corrupt the heart of Islam.

May Allah guide all His slaves and allow the muslims to break free from this vice of the west. Ameen
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solid_snake
04-21-2005, 12:53 PM
wow ......... and to think it was only muslims living in Europe and NA ....... soon porn will be on tv .......
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Mu'maneen
04-22-2005, 03:05 PM
:sl:

This is the sad thing now. There is no actual country standing today that is following 100% Shari'a of Islam. This is one of the minor signs before the hour, "...that the muslim leaders will have hearts of Shaytan..."
There is no more Brotherhood amongst the Muslims. Muslims are "strangers" to one another these days.


----------------

Vist my new Islamic Site:
http://hstrial-besmail.homestead.com/islam.html
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julie sarri
03-12-2006, 03:11 PM
:sl: and in some of these places like turkey,tunisia,italy,spain some of the muslimahs are told to take off their hijaabs some have even been sent to prison for refuseing and some would not be aload into hospital for treatment antil they took off their hijaab its so sad that these countries are muslim and are behaving this way:w:
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Snowflake
03-12-2006, 04:53 PM
The same thing is happening in the bigger cities in Pakistan, in fact i've seen more Islam in UK than in Pakistan.. how sad is that for them? The villages are safe though. The people there still have shame and modesty left in them. May Allah give hidayah to all muslims. Ameen.
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renak
03-12-2006, 09:13 PM
I've often read that Islam is the fastest growing religion. Does anyone know if the majority of reverts/converts practice a more traditional form of Islam, or a more progressive (western) form of Islam?
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abdul Majid
03-12-2006, 09:17 PM
Theres only one ISLAM...

but from what i know they practice the real way !! thank GOD
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renak
03-12-2006, 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by abdul Majid
Theres only one ISLAM
Do you consider the more progressive muslims to actually be muslim?
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abdul Majid
03-12-2006, 09:23 PM
well, if they beleive that there is only one GOD , and Muhamed is his messenger.

then they are muslims, muslim meaning one who submits to GOD..

but people start to form different views and such, with can lead them to sin,
and lead to disbeleive in some important issues !!
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arehat
03-12-2006, 09:29 PM
Ive been to Jordon and Turkey.

Was really dissapointed to see lack of islamic Knowledge there!!!!!!!!!!
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abdul Majid
03-12-2006, 09:30 PM
yea thats crazy, but it all comes from western influence !! 100%
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renak
03-12-2006, 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by abdul Majid
well, if they beleive that there is only one GOD , and Muhamed is his messenger.

then they are muslims, muslim meaning one who submits to GOD..

but people start to form different views and such, with can lead them to sin,
and lead to disbeleive in some important issues !!
I think I'm beginning to understand.
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abdul Majid
03-12-2006, 09:34 PM
:) :happy:
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The Ruler
03-12-2006, 09:34 PM
i no dat dese countries v a lot of innovations goin around :?

:w:
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The Ruler
03-12-2006, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by renak
I think I'm beginning to understand.
huh?? understand wat :? :confused:

:w:
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abdul Majid
03-12-2006, 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by Tagrid
huh?? understand wat :? :confused:

:w:

renak: Does anyone know if the majority of reverts/converts practice a more traditional form of Islam, or a more progressive (western) form of Islam?



abdul: Theres only one ISLAM...
but from what i know they practice the real way !! thank GOD


renak: Do you consider the more progressive muslims to actually be muslim?


abdul:well, if they beleive that there is only one GOD , and Muhamed is his messenger.
then they are muslims, muslim meaning one who submits to GOD..
but people start to form different views and such, with can lead them to sin,
and lead to disbeleive in some important issues !!

renak:I think I'm beginning to understand.



HOWS THAT SIS??
:brother:
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north_malaysian
03-13-2006, 02:50 AM
Turkey have playboy tv on their cable tv. Lots of gay clubs too. Plus many drink alcohol.

Malaysia - we have gay clubs, gay spas, gay ports (where gays meetup), 7,000 Muslim transvetites (which have their own association). 99.99% Male above 18 years old have seen porn movie (it's easy to get porno vcd in Malaysia, me myself I've seen it since I was 13). Clubbing is usual things among city youngsters. For rural youngster they have karaoke and snooker centres.

One nights stands is usual, mostly after concerts or celebrations (Independence day, New Year eves). Valentine day overwhelming celebrated by Muslims.

90% of Muslima wear hijab, but mostly just as fashion. Plus they are hundreds of vid clips of muslimat wearing hijab having sex in parks, cars, etc.

:X
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abdul Majid
03-13-2006, 02:53 AM
Astafirallah
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Umu 'Isa
03-13-2006, 02:56 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Turkey have playboy tv on their cable tv. Lots of gay clubs too. Plus many drink alcohol.

Malaysia - we have gay clubs, gay spas, gay ports (where gays meetup), 7,000 Muslim transvetites (which have their own association). 99.99% Male above 18 years old have seen porn movie (it's easy to get porno vcd in Malaysia, me myself I've seen it since I was 13). Clubbing is usual things among city youngsters. For rural youngster they have karaoke and snooker centres.

One nights stands is usual, mostly after concerts or celebrations (Independence day, New Year eves). Valentine day overwhelming celebrated by Muslims.

90% of Muslima wear hijab, but mostly just as fashion. Plus they are hundreds of vid clips of muslimat wearing hijab having sex in parks, cars, etc.

:X
ohhhhh astaghfirulllah.. whats happening to our ummah :'( :'( :'(
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north_malaysian
03-13-2006, 03:01 AM
If someone want to propagate Islam in Malaysia, he should go to Muslims first. New Muslims are more islamic than most born muslims.
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Smok
03-13-2006, 09:09 PM
Very good countries. You can be really free. If you want you can wear hijab if you don't then you can wear shorts and drink beer. Forced religion is worthless.
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ummAbdillah
03-13-2006, 09:30 PM
salaam :brother: and :sister:
may allah subhanahu watala giude them
ameen :)
ma salaam
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abdul Majid
03-13-2006, 09:32 PM
thats easy for you to say.....becuase your ok with things like that, when it is these very things that lead to sin in reality!!

and these countrys werent like this!! until western infuence appeared!!
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anis_z24
03-13-2006, 09:38 PM
Salam,
borders made to divide the strong, and slow down progress
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Halima
03-14-2006, 12:56 PM
:sl:

The only beneficial thing to do instead of looking at the negative side, you can always hope for the best and strongly advise your brothers and sisters when you see them in the wrong insha'Allah.

Allahu Al'm (and Allah knows best)

BarakAllahu Feekum.

:w:
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j4763
03-14-2006, 01:20 PM
and these countrys werent like this!! until western infuence appeared!!
Do muslims not have good guidance from other Muslims their, and do they not have the option of choice? Anyone can say no to something, so rather than blame the west these Muslims who have giving into temptation have only themselves to blame!
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mizan_aliashraf
03-14-2006, 02:50 PM
Salam
You cant blame the west for this one. Malaysia (and many other 'muslim' countries) have their own people, their own values and their own way of life. If they want to follow the example of the west then that is up to them. It is them at the end of the day who will be held accountable for it.
May Allah guide them and protect them
Wassalam
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Muezzin
03-14-2006, 07:19 PM
^I agree. Sooner or later the Ummah has to start taking responsibility for its own actions. We can't keep blaming 'America' or 'The Jews!!!!!!1111one'. It makes us look like those silly no-hoper kids in school who never get anywhere in life because they're too busy making life difficult for themselves, while blaming others for it.

Originally Posted by Smok
Very good countries. You can be really free. If you want you can wear hijab if you don't then you can wear shorts and drink beer. Forced religion is worthless.
Forcing people not to practice their religion is just as bad. In Turkey for example, women are not allowed to wear their headscarves in certain buildings.

I could be wrong, feel free to correct me.
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snowdropjasmine
03-14-2006, 07:23 PM
:thumbs_up
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Smok
03-15-2006, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Forcing people not to practice their religion is just as bad. In Turkey for example, women are not allowed to wear their headscarves in certain buildings.

I could be wrong, feel free to correct me.
Of course. But IMHO religion is very "internal" thing. Pray in home but not in public schools or something.
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Muezzin
03-16-2006, 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by Smok
Of course. But IMHO religion is very "internal" thing. Pray in home but not in public schools or something.
That's your opinion, which you are entitled to. However, no one is entitled to force their opinions on others. And you must bear in mind that Muslims in particular do not see religion as just a couple of rituals, but rather as a way of life. It's not something one can just switch off.

Personally, I think that as long as the religion is not interfering in any way with the education, it is fine. In other words, I don't see how a headscarf or a turban could interfere with teaching.

Just because people are entitled not to practice religion, doesn't give them the right to forbid others from practicing theirs :)
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Smok
03-16-2006, 10:28 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
That's your opinion, which you are entitled to. However, no one is entitled to force their opinions on others. And you must bear in mind that Muslims in particular do not see religion as just a couple of rituals, but rather as a way of life. It's not something one can just switch off.

Personally, I think that as long as the religion is not interfering in any way with the education, it is fine. In other words, I don't see how a headscarf or a turban could interfere with teaching.

Just because people are entitled not to practice religion, doesn't give them the right to forbid others from practicing theirs :)
You are absolutely right. I don't have any problems when I see girl in hijab or man with big cross on his chest.
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Muezzin
03-16-2006, 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by Smok
You are absolutely right. I don't have any problems when I see girl in hijab or man with big cross on his chest.
If only everyone were as tolerant as you, the world would be a much happier place. :)

But a lot of people are intolerant, so they suck. :p
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solid_snake
03-16-2006, 03:17 PM
woah ... this thread is back from the dead! :okay:
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Rou
03-17-2006, 08:38 PM
These clubs...these western ideals...short skirts...the hijab being tossed aside....

think this not a mistake a well planned startegy is this the view of westernisation is to make all alike to take that which is within our culture and mix it at first with there ways then soon make those who have fallen in this trap forget altogether there culture....

in the end there will be no one left to pass on our belifs to our children...we sell ourselves and betray allah as the isralites did when moses went up the mountain...

however we are made to do this on a bigger scale...

One man or one woman doing these things for there own pleasure may not seem that bad but the west is proof enough of whathappens when you leave a nation to do this type of thing...

what respect will be left for eachother what honour....
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cihad
03-18-2006, 03:30 PM
in turkey a lot of ppl suck

but their swarma is yum!
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Maimunah
03-18-2006, 03:36 PM
[QUOTE=cihad;216491]in turkey a lot of ppl suck
may allah guide them
:)
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Safa
03-18-2006, 08:06 PM
My school teacher, who happened to be Jordanian once said, "Religion, you don't need religion in your life."

I hope that's not what the majority believe but I think it's becoming a growing trend these days.
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Duhaa
03-18-2006, 09:07 PM
I went Jordan when I was small and I remember at the hotel I was staying there was a Mexican style wedding going on!
I cant really remember if they were Muslims but there was live Mexican music and the bride had a white wedding dress and the groom had some funny outfit.
To be honest I didnt see anyone who looked like a muslim.
........However they could have been. :(
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Cheb
03-18-2006, 09:12 PM
You can add UAE, Lebanon, Morocco, Tunisia, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, to that list. I am sure there are more those are the countries that I can think of right now that are becoming less and less like a Muslim country. Actually I am not sure if Lebanon counts since the president is (and has to be) a Christian.
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Muezzin
03-18-2006, 09:14 PM
While all this finger-pointing is very entertaining, how constructive is it?

I mean, yes, we've identified the 'problem areas', but have we done anything to change them?
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Duhaa
03-18-2006, 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
While all this finger-pointing is very entertaining, how constructive is it?

I mean, yes, we've identified the 'problem areas', but have we done anything to change them?

Praying for them is a start. :)
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Muezzin
03-18-2006, 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by Duhaa
Praying for them is a start. :)
Very true. :)

We could also do our best to be good, polite, friendly Muslims and attract people back into the fold by just being excellent. It worked for the Prophet (SAW), I'm sure it'll work for us :D
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Safa
03-18-2006, 09:33 PM
:sl:

Agreed,doing what the Prophet (pbuh) did can lead people to know how excellent he (pbuh) was, in terms of behavior and manners, instead of having false notions about violence.

:w:
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Guli7
03-19-2006, 12:02 AM
I'm tired of people talking so bad about Americans. We influence people in other countries yes but the people take it above and beyond. I am more conservative than some of my cousins in my country in Europe.

I have known covered girls who come from Turkey here to go to universities because they weren't allowed to go back home. Muslims have more rights here than they do there where they can't even step in government buildings with a hijab on. The newspapers in parts of Europe show nudity and they don't censor things on basic cable tv like we do here.

The youth look at the wrong part of American culture and take it to the max. I'm American and even though I may not agree with some of the government policies, I can say that I am proud of a few things that the people as a whole are allowed to do and can accomplish. thanks
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Guli7
03-19-2006, 12:08 AM
also in parts of Europe drinking, having sex, and smoking is legal at age 16. In America drinking age is 21, for the other things the age is 18. There are some things that we are more conservative and I'm tired of people only thinking of the negative.

no offense to Europeans...............
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Lush
03-19-2006, 04:55 AM
I am very disappointed to see a beautiful country like Jordan slandered here.

I lived there for two months, I worked, played, I went to the clubs and drank, and I also listened to the minarets early in the morning and was overcome by their beauty. I was treated so well. I loved the food. I loved the Dead Sea. I loved how it was perfectly Ok for me to walk out into the street in my jeans and t-shirt, and mix with covered women, and not have to worry about being attacked for who I am, just like they didn't have to worry for being attacked for who they were.

Jordainians are wonderful people. There are so many different things to see, the immigrant Armenian neighbourhoods where the women tie their scarves sideways, the bedouin communities 'round Ma'an, the universities, the mosques, and everything in between.

In Jordan, people of different backgrounds and convictions can mix and get along. It's not a perfect society, by far, but it's a beautiful society, and the self-righteous trashing that has gone on in this thread is repulsive to me. And I thought that backbiting was wrong.
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Cheb
03-19-2006, 05:09 AM
You may disagree with our beliefs, but the fact is that Jordan and many other countries are becoming more and more like the West rather than like a Muslim country. Since you have a western mentality, then your view about Jordan is different than a Muslims view, or I should say my view. It is all about perspective. I understand yours and I would expect that you understand ours.
To you going to clubs, drinking and being able to dress in revealing clothes (on an Islamic standard) comfortably in a country is what you see as a good thing. However, I see it as the exact opposite.
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Lush
03-19-2006, 05:13 AM
Haha, a t-shirt and jeans are revealing, man, most religious Jordainians don't think that way! Have you been to Jordan? I walked through one of the most conservative districts in Amman, mixing alongside niqaabis and the like, and nobody was offended. There is a strong tradition of live and let live mentality in Jordan, and believe me, it has little to do with the boogeyman of "Westernization."

Furthermore, it may come as a surprise, but plenty of religious people are very comfortable living in Jordan. Nobody is breaking down their door and telling them how to behave. That's what so wonderful about a country like Jordan, people do not simply have the right to force their belief down your throat, and this works both ways.

Religion, when it's forced upon you, is meaningless. Somebody has already brought this up in this thread. And I agree.
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Cheb
03-19-2006, 05:33 AM
Yes a t-shirt and jeans are revealing according to Islam. Laughing at that is like laughing at the Quran (I know you didnt mean it that way) since that is where we get our beliefs from.
You dont seem to understand what I am saying. The fact that all this is happening in a Muslim country, that alcohol is consumed regularly, clubs are opening, etc. means that we are going further and further away from our religion. I do not expect you to change your beliefs, but I do expect you to understand ours. The fact that our beliefs are going down the drain because of “Westernization” does not make me a happy Muslim. No one is "forcing" religion on you, but, you are required to respect our traditions and beliefs if you are in a Muslim country. The fact that Jordanians don’t see it that way means that they are in the wrong and not you. I am not trying to offend them, I am Lebanese and I am not sure if you know but it is much worse there. I just think that as Muslims, we are forgetting about why we are on this earth. More meaningless things are introduced to our community everyday, and we are just watching it happen.
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Lush
03-19-2006, 05:35 AM
Sorry, Cheb, like I said before, a forced religion is a meaningless religion.
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Cheb
03-19-2006, 05:38 AM
The fact that I agree with that statement means that you are not getting my point. Never mind then, that is your opinion.
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Lush
03-19-2006, 05:40 AM
Let me qualify my opinion, so that, perhaps, we can see the difference emerge:

Institutionalized religion is meaningless.
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Cheb
03-19-2006, 06:29 AM
If by institutionalized religion you mean a religion that is forced on its people, that is still not what I am saying. See we cannot force anyone to do anything that will affect themselves only, but we can enforce our Sharia law. There is a difference there. See when alcohol is allowed it creates problems in society as a whole. That is one reason why it is not allowed in Islam. Therefore a country under Sharia law cannot allow alcohol. There are reasons why we have these laws just like there are reasons why your country has their laws. Different countries have different cultures and circumstances. They may be different in the West but they are still laws that should be respected. But if someone is not praying 5 times a day, that is up to him, just as long as he does not affect society as a whole.
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Lush
03-19-2006, 06:41 AM
I think there is a certain level of self-absorption that's going on in this thread.

Imagine if the tables were turned, as they often are.

Imagine you are traveling, for whatever personal or professional reason, to a Siberian town such as Kemerovo, or a village north of Vladimir, or maybe to the Carpathians.

The many diverse communities in this area have a practice; they immediately offer their houseguest a jug of home-made wine, or a double-shot of vodka. It's a symbol of hospitality and friendship. This is tradition, and most people who refuse are considered rude, and an explanation is needed.

Do you, as a practicing Muslim, get into a tizzy over local traditions, or do you politely refuse?

Then, are you at all thrilled when an article in the local paper proceeds to lambast you for your lack of cultural sensitivity?

See, it's all fine and well to criticize a Jordanian hotel that will cater to a secular, or mixed party, such as the Intercontinental does, or it's Ok to criticize a young woman who goes to a Muslim country and doesn't veil, but the second a well-meaning Ukrainian starts insisting that you take a shot of vodka with him or her, or cross yourself when the church bells ring, as most Orthodox people are want to do, and the situation becomes altogether different.
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Knut Hamsun
03-19-2006, 07:12 AM
Cheb,
Why do you, and many muslims I've talked with, need a whole country or society to be 100% likeminded i.e. muslim and Sharia? And if you want this so bad, why don't you move to the country that is currently closest to this, your ideal? Seems logical, no?
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Cheb
03-19-2006, 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by Lush
I think there is a certain level of self-absorption that's going on in this thread.

Imagine if the tables were turned, as they often are.

Imagine you are traveling, for whatever personal or professional reason, to a Siberian town such as Kemerovo, or a village north of Vladimir, or maybe to the Carpathians.

The many diverse communities in this area have a practice; they immediately offer their houseguest a jug of home-made wine, or a double-shot of vodka. It's a symbol of hospitality and friendship. This is tradition, and most people who refuse are considered rude, and an explanation is needed.

Do you, as a practicing Muslim, get into a tizzy over local traditions, or do you politely refuse?

Then, are you at all thrilled when an article in the local paper proceeds to lambast you for your lack of cultural sensitivity?

See, it's all fine and well to criticize a Jordanian hotel that will cater to a secular, or mixed party, such as the Intercontinental does, or it's Ok to criticize a young woman who goes to a Muslim country and doesn't veil, but the second a well-meaning Ukrainian starts insisting that you take a shot of vodka with him or her, or cross yourself when the church bells ring, as most Orthodox people are want to do, and the situation becomes altogether different.
First of all, you are talking about tradition, I am talking about Law. The law I talk about makes sense, the tradition you talk about is just that, tradition. Furthermore if that was true, I would not go there in the first place. Even if I did, I would not drink the vodka because being rude compared to a major sin is quite different (and I presume it is not against the law?). Honestly you do not know this, but you are being hypocritical. Look at any country in the world, pick a democratic country, are there not laws there that you do not agree with? It is the same for the Sharia Law, there will be things that you do not agree with, but you dont have to, you just have to respect them as long as they do not go against your beliefs. If they do, then you should not be there in the first place. Or you will have no choice but to go against your beliefs. In the end, it is your choice.
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Cheb
03-19-2006, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by Knut Hamsun
Cheb,
Why do you, and many muslims I've talked with, need a whole country or society to be 100% likeminded i.e. muslim and Sharia? And if you want this so bad, why don't you move to the country that is currently closest to this, your ideal? Seems logical, no?
Look at your first question, if that were the case, the world would actually be much better off anyway. That is the point, if we can be in a country that share the same belief, or at least respect each other's beliefs, you would have a country with little if no conflict. That is the ultimate goal.
As for your second question, I would agree with you of course. Unless that person has no choice, or finds it very hard to move then they should go where they will feel closer to God. BUT, that place actually does not really exist. Unfortunately there are no countries at this time that truly follow the Sharia in every way.
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Lush
03-19-2006, 07:34 PM
pick a democratic country, are there not laws there that you do not agree with?
Not ones that directly affect me. And I travel quite a lot.

Furthermore, there is no law in Jordan that states that females ought to wear this or that. And this doesn't automatically mean that Jordan isn't a Muslim country. It's simply a logical continuation of the fact that to different women, modesty means different things. There are people on this board, and otherwise, who believe that modesty = full niqaab, and others that do not. Attempting to impose the same standard on everyone is the first step toward fascism.

The old Slavic laws, and I do not mean the current constitutions, did require travelers to partake, but you wouldn't know that, would you? You "wouldn't go there in the first place." You've no interest in exploring or attempting to understand other people's cultures. As I said, this thread is suffering from serious self-absorption.

Your response to Hasman, however, leads me to believe that we have little to talk about further. Islamo-fascism cannot think in nuance, just like Christian fascism. And I've had enough of both in recent years.
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Deus
03-19-2006, 08:24 PM
I've noticed on this board that a large number of ex-pat moslems (moslemss living in the west or were born there or lived most of their lives there) seemt o have this sort of monolithic monochrome perception of a lot of Arab countries. aving grown up in Jordan and lived msot of my life there these perceptions are actually quite strange.

There is this idea that the middle east (places like Jordan) represent the heartland of the so called "Ummah". As such these places should represent or fulfill a clear leaderhsip role as a an Islamic model or something of the like. That Jordan and and other Arab countries should be the paragon of all that is Islamic. Any deviation from this role is regarded as a clear mark of westernnization and or western meddling.

I don't understand why western or moslems whom live and grew up in the west have this image. Perhaps it is an attempt to asser cultural identity in the west, or something along those lins.

The Fact of the matter is somewhere like Jordan isn't and never was a a fitting model for the perception of these western moslems.

Traditionally Jordan had been a desert region populated mostly by Arab tribesmen. There is a popular misconception that bedouins, especially Jordanian Bedouins, conform strictly to Islamic practice. Bedouin customs diverge markedly from Islamic law in both postive and negative aspects. The positives would be the independent role of women and the negatives would be emphasis on revenge and tribalism.

Bedouins also consume and have always consumed copious amounts of date wine. The harsh realities of desert living and isolation led to the evolution of a very loose understanding of Islamic law.

Furthermore, since its inception Jordan is a diverse and multicultural country. There is a realitvely large number of Christians, Armenians, Circassian and Palestinians. In fact Palestinians outnumber the east bank Jordanians, the descendents of Bedouin stock. It is not this unified Islamic nation and never was and the most recent manifestation of this diversity is the advent of nightclubs. That is not to say there arent a lot of hardline moslems, there are but there is a rich hertiage of tolerance and acknowledgement of diversity. The Jordanian constitution recognizes both christianity and Islam as the State's official religions. Jordan is not really an Islamic country in the way that saudi arabia is and never has been.

Even if you want to go back to the days of the first four caliphs we see that even they werent a perfect model of Islamic governship. In fact Sharia law was suspended twice under the caliph Othman due to famine and drought and the caliph omar suspended other segmnets of Islamic law due to changing situations. Some Historians agree that Omar loved alchohol that he in fact enjoyed the odd glass of wine but more on alchohol and Islam later

Following the first 4 caliphs we saw the advent of the Umayyad dysnasty, if anyone really thinks that the Umayyads were manifestation of Islamic rule in a strict sense then they are seriously deluded. The Umayyads stretching to Al andalus in southern spain rolled back on the prescribed wearing of the veil, alchohol consumption and production was never limited and Christians and Jews flocked to Moslem cities such Gharnata, Damascus and Cairo to enjoy the protection and favoured position under Islamic or should I say semi Islamic rulers as these modern day western moslems would certainly not have agreed with Umayyad policies. Interestingly enough the word "Harem" comes from the Umayyad caliph Harun il rashied who was quite the ladies man some indicated he died of either of an STD or alchohol poisoning because of his worldly indulgences.

The Abbassids operated much a long the same lines but at that point the moslem world would start to fracture with some states or emirated being more conservative than others

The point is there was never a clear monolithic ideal of Islamic ideals.

NEither is it now

Also some people think that Alchohol is expressly forbidden it is not. The ayah in the quran forbids Pork but then uses the term avoid rather than forbid. Scholars disagree over this because like all Islamic law it is open to interpretation. Furthermore, this idea that Islamic law is a set of law set in stone is ridiculous. Sharia is the result of centuries of scholarships, The problem with Sharia is that it contantly evolved up until the 14th century but then with the fall of andalus it has stagnated ever since. and as such moslems are revert to a code of law that has not been refine in almost 700 years. Sharia is not a cler codified list of law handed down by god it is or was the end result of a long process of interpretation fo quranic script and hadith.
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Deus
03-19-2006, 10:23 PM
Another thing

Historical records one might say can be biased and you might not take my word for it an example of that would be omar ibn al khattabs drinking.

However there is another record we examin, Literature.

Post Jahiliyeh Arab and persian Literature , poems and such are littered with references to Alchohol, sex, women without the veil and all sorts of stuff people on this board

1001 Arabian Nights, the quatrains of Omar Khayyam, Al mutanaby, al-bahtary, khalil Gibran and a host of other Arab poets recorded their life and times through poems and all have references to what people might consider a debauched life style.

There appears to be, on this forum, a sort of nostalgic remembrance of an "Islamic age" with strict adherence to Islamic ideals and that these ideals were somehoe corrupted either externally by the west or internally.

What a lot of moslems, especially non-arab moslems that is moslems living in the west, don't understand is that such an age never really existed for an extended period of time. There was no purely Islamic calpihate as recorded scholars and poets.

This yearning is completely unfounded as there is nothing in the past to yearn for.

The achievments of the Islamic empires was not the establishment of a strict Islamic society but rather more secualr achievements through secular means such as advances in science, philosophy, medicine, astronomy and literature.
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Deus
03-19-2006, 10:34 PM
and od course the great jordanian poet arar or wasfi al tal highly recommend looking up his poems

who went on to become one of Jordan's greatest prime minister's and cracked down on palestinian islamsits in 1970 during black september and expelled the PLO from Jordan
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