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solid_snake
03-19-2006, 03:06 AM
http://smh.com.au/news/world/muslims...098602916.html

By Gregory Crouch in Nijmegen, the Netherlands
March 17, 2006

THIS is not exactly a run-of-the-mill homework assignment: watch a film clip of an attractive woman sunbathing topless and try not to be shocked.

"People do not make a fuss about nudity," the narrator says.

That lesson, about the Netherlands' nude beaches, is followed by another: homosexuals have the same rights here as heterosexuals do, including the chance to marry.

Just to make sure everyone gets the message, two men are shown kissing in a meadow.

The scenes are brief parts of a two-hour-long film that the Dutch government has compiled to help potential immigrants, many from Islamic countries, meet the demands of a new entrance test that went into effect on Wednesday.

Opponents of the tightening immigration policies have pointed to the film - a DVD contained in a package of study materials for the new exam - as an attempt by the Government to discourage applicants from Islamic countries who may be offended by its content.

Dutch politicians and immigration officials have dismissed those accusations, saying the film is a study aid that will give potential immigrants an honest look at the way life is lived here.

"The film is meant for people not yet in Holland to take note that this is normal here and not be shocked and awed by it once they arrive," said Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali-born member of the Dutch parliament.

But Abdou Menebhi, chairman of Emcemo, a Moroccan interest group in Amsterdam, said the film was just another example of how the Netherlands was trying to limit immigration from Muslim countries.

"This isn't education, it's provocation," Mr Menebhi said. "The new law has one goal: to stop the flow of immigrants, especially by Muslims from countries like Morocco and Turkey."

Citizens from the US, the European Union, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan and Switzerland are exempt.

Dutch officials deny the film is intended to discourage Muslim immigration. But they insist they want all applicants to wonder whether or not they would fit into one of the world's most permissive societies.

Besides the snippets on homosexuality and nudity, the film shows a run-down neighbourhood populated by immigrants who describe the Dutch as "cold" and "distant". It warns of traffic jams, unemployment and possible flooding. One newspaper joked that the tourist board would give the whole production a thumbs down.
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irsha
03-19-2006, 07:34 AM
I think is a wonderful Idea, it just says, you are welcome, but only if you can be tolerant to ther peoples way of life. I wish our government would have th guts to do the same.
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abdul Majid
03-19-2006, 07:36 AM
i think thats funny ...lol
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Knut Hamsun
03-19-2006, 07:44 AM
yeah, if homosexual marriage and beach nudity are legal there--and they are--, immigrants should be able to deal with it (or don't go there!). Fair is fair!
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afriend
03-19-2006, 07:47 AM
Allah tells us to stay away from fitnah afflicted areas......

because, sooner or later, the punnishment of Allah will come, and there is no guarantee that u will b safe cos ur a good muslim, Azhab spares nothing...

Best to stay away.
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irsha
03-19-2006, 07:53 AM
maybe it would be best to stay away, many muslims do seem to have a problem accepting other peoples way of life, Of course you can always recpricate with vidoes of people getting stoned to death for similar behaviour in muslim countries, that way the westerners will stay away from you too.
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abdul Majid
03-19-2006, 07:59 AM
you too?? you seem a lil angry.... listen a good muslim, has a problem with things that are wrong! not peoples way of life , you got us confused a bit..

the prophet(pbh) lived with jews and christians in his time, and there was peace, these people never did disgracefull acts as they do today out in the open remember that..
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irsha
03-19-2006, 08:04 AM
Perhaps my view on muslims is a little tainted, I have been called evry name you can immagine- but only ever by muslims, for my way of life. I also have a problem with the attitude on "what would you do if your child turned gay, forum. I figure if muslims are willing to kill their own children for being gay, then what chance do they have of being able to be tolerant of people being free in front of them. If muslims are wiling to mind their own business on these issues, then of course they are welcome.
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Knut Hamsun
03-19-2006, 08:11 AM
Well said, Irsha. I have no tolerance for intolerant religious people.
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abdul Majid
03-19-2006, 08:14 AM
KILLING A CHILD OF ANYSORT IS UNLAWFUL!

im sad that you harbor terrible views on islam, when it is actually the opposite of what you think...maybe you just met the wrong people, and we do mind our bizness.. but what do you mean about that?
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irsha
03-19-2006, 08:22 AM
Have a look at that thread, they probably meant when their child was an adult- which I believe in a female is considered when they have their period- which can be as young as 8 years old. As to minding their own business, I mean just accept it. Not like here, where the top immam (shiek hilally) said its "Australian cultures fault for allowing women to dress as they want" (in reference to a group of muslim young men who gang raped a girl). The other thing is, I have personally been called all sorts of names by muslims for my way of life
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abdul Majid
03-19-2006, 08:27 AM
well thats horrible and wrong irsha, name calling is not right at all, and judging people also....but i want you to please remember something, there are people out there that should, be acting like true muslims but unfortunately they act foolish and fall into evil....they dont represent our religion ISLAM.. when theirs actions are such...a true muslim wouldnt do that...
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irsha
03-19-2006, 08:31 AM
Well, I hope so, that is why I am here, to see.
But you should try to walk around Cronulla beach with skimpy clothes on and see how many muslim young men insult you and call you names like
"skippy sl-t". Thats why I moved away from that beach up north
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abdul Majid
03-19-2006, 08:37 AM
thats just wrong those kids are not very intellectuall as you can see, lol
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irsha
03-19-2006, 08:39 AM
they were not kids, they are usually around 19 to late 20's
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abdul Majid
03-19-2006, 08:41 AM
well they sure acted like kids to me ....lol
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Umu 'Isa
03-19-2006, 08:43 AM
Originally Posted by irsha
Well, I hope so, that is why I am here, to see.
But you should try to walk around Cronulla beach with skimpy clothes on and see how many muslim young men insult you and call you names like
"skippy sl-t". Thats why I moved away from that beach up north
irsha.. i know the type of guys you are talking about..
do you honestly think they practise islam?
A true muslim who abides by Qur'an and Sunnah does not call people names,

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
“The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely or speak rudely.”

Also muslim men should not be looking at women anyway! Unfortunately, there are young men that go around doing this, and call themselves muslims! But if you want to see how a muslim should be, read about the Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) life.
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irsha
03-19-2006, 08:46 AM
Ok, we are getting off topic, Iy will be interesting to see how tolerant people are when they get to know me
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Al-Zaara
03-19-2006, 08:56 AM
Originally Posted by irsha
Ok, we are getting off topic, Iy will be interesting to see how tolerant people are when they get to know me
:sl:

Well, it depends alot if you too are being tolerant.
I mean, one shouldn't try to find the line where people get intolerant, insulted or angry, rather should you say your thing nicely and politely and I know, there may be some who will reply harshly or rudely but then again there are those who will answer you with the same tolerance you showed (reply politely back etc) Even though we or others disagree with you, with tolerance from both sides, we will make our points clearly and won't need to call one another intolerant, rude, stupid or God knows what.
To say this short, you want tolerant people, be one of them and you will find them. :)

:w:
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abdul Majid
03-19-2006, 08:57 AM
if you have any questions about islam, feel free to ask irsha, ok
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irsha
03-19-2006, 10:23 AM
I agree, I will try to act with tolerance. I still feel, though, that if I even explained my way of life I would cop the usual hatred and insults
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Umu 'Isa
03-19-2006, 10:31 AM
as Allah (swt) says in the Qur'an, "to you is your way and to me is mine" (surah 109, ayah 6)
so we have no right to judge you.... :)
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-19-2006, 11:12 AM
Originally Posted by irsha
I agree, I will try to act with tolerance. I still feel, though, that if I even explained my way of life I would cop the usual hatred and insults
We're not here to force our deen upon you:).
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irsha
03-21-2006, 06:08 AM
Look, don't take offence to this, but your picture hardly looks like Allah must like individuals. It kinda reminds me of monty python life of brian, where brian says-"look, you all individuals" and the crowd says, "yes we are all individuals" and one up the back says "I'm not"
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snakelegs
03-21-2006, 06:57 AM
i don't think it's a bad idea. it might make people think again about going to a country that has so little restrictions. they will have to realize that holland is not going to change to suit them, so they can either adapt or stay home. it is quite a different world, that's for sure!
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-21-2006, 08:36 AM
Originally Posted by irsha
Look, don't take offence to this, but your picture hardly looks like Allah must like individuals. It kinda reminds me of monty python life of brian, where brian says-"look, you all individuals" and the crowd says, "yes we are all individuals" and one up the back says "I'm not"
Sorry, is there a point to that statement?:?
And I don't know what monty-python is.:statisfie
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irsha
03-21-2006, 12:11 PM
Well, muslims tell me Allah values each idividual, yet looking at those pictures its obvioius that individuality is strongly inhibited under Islam. Also, I believe the whole reaon for wearing hijab is to not draw attention to ones self, yet the only women (thats if they are women) wearing any type of different hijab is wearing one of hate, and one designed to draw attention. So, I don't get it- are the only ones who think they are being individual, being individual or not? Can you tell me, as you have previously said that you are a devout muslim who loves Allah, can you tell me that by wearing messages of hate on something that distinguishes someone as a muslim women, would please Allah?? I don't get all this hatred I see from Islam? I have been told that Islam is a religion of peace, yet I see more evidence every day that it is not. I cannot believe that you believe a god who could create the butterfly and all the beauty of the world, could be so hateful, that he demands hatred fro his followers, nor that he would demand that people kill others in such a barbaric way as to slowly stone them to death.
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S_87
03-21-2006, 12:19 PM
:sl:

Astaghfirullah

as for above posts..i did not know a person is judged by what they wear- well guess what? muslim women dressing like that dont want to be judged by the clothes they wear but what they truly are.


and you last sentence is a total lie so please get your facts straight atleast :thumbs_up
you need to know the whole religion befor judging a teeny part....
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Cheb
03-21-2006, 12:20 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
Well, muslims tell me Allah values each idividual, yet looking at those pictures its obvioius that individuality is strongly inhibited under Islam. Also, I believe the whole reaon for wearing hijab is to not draw attention to ones self, yet the only women (thats if they are women) wearing any type of different hijab is wearing one of hate, and one designed to draw attention. So, I don't get it- are the only ones who think they are being individual, being individual or not? Can you tell me, as you have previously said that you are a devout muslim who loves Allah, can you tell me that by wearing messages of hate on something that distinguishes someone as a muslim women, would please Allah?? I don't get all this hatred I see from Islam? I have been told that Islam is a religion of peace, yet I see more evidence every day that it is not. I cannot believe that you believe a god who could create the butterfly and all the beauty of the world, could be so hateful, that he demands hatred fro his followers, nor that he would demand that people kill others in such a barbaric way as to slowly stone them to death.
How could wearing a Hijab have anything to do with hate?
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irsha
03-21-2006, 12:27 PM
Oh come on? You are writing here so I gather you can see? The hijab has the actual words HATE written on them!!!
And what part of what I said is a lie? Please be more specific if you are going to call me a liar?
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Cheb
03-21-2006, 12:31 PM
I guess you are talking about Mu'minah's signature?
Well if you are then I would not agree with that (her signature) at all. In fact we are repeatedly told to stay away from hate. No offense Mu'minah but I think you should change your signature. Just an opinion.
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irsha
03-21-2006, 12:38 PM
Sorry, Cheb if that was not clear, I was talking about her signature, for the last few threads, but I also want to know where I supposedly lied? Dd that clear up my supposed lie? And she should leave her signature, it goes to honesty, no use pretending that hatred is not a big part of Islam.
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HeiGou
03-21-2006, 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
Sorry, Cheb if that was not clear, I was talking about her signature, for the last few threads, but I also want to know where I supposedly lied? Dd that clear up my supposed lie? And she should leave her signature, it goes to honesty, no use pretending that hatred is not a big part of Islam.
I don't think she said you lied, did she? It was another woman.

Myself, I do not see a lot of hate in that signature although it is very dark and frankly depressing. It is an improvement over the SAM-totting jihadis she has used in the past. Still I expect to see Darth Vader walk into that sig at any moment with the full Imperial March sound effects. The Emperor inspecting his Imperial Storm Sisters perhaps.
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irsha
03-21-2006, 12:43 PM
scroll the signature down, and you are right, it was someone else, I apologise Cheb, perhaps the other sister can explain where I lied?
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S_87
03-21-2006, 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
Oh come on? You are writing here so I gather you can see? The hijab has the actual words HATE written on them!!!
And what part of what I said is a lie? Please be more specific if you are going to call me a liar?
i know what the hijab has on it.

i meant, explain this then

I cannot believe that you believe a god who could create the butterfly and all the beauty of the world, could be so hateful, that he demands hatred fro his followers, nor that he would demand that people kill others in such a barbaric way as to slowly stone them to death.
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irsha
03-21-2006, 01:06 PM
Are you telling me that torturing someone to death is not hateful? especially for just doing something with other consenting adults? Does Allah have such a narrow limit on love?
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irsha
03-21-2006, 01:09 PM
apparently the stones must be chosen to be not too big as to cause a quick death!
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irsha
03-21-2006, 01:11 PM
I suppose a loving God would demand such pain
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S_87
03-21-2006, 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
Are you telling me that torturing someone to death is not hateful? especially for just doing something with other consenting adults? Does Allah have such a narrow limit on love?
Allah is the Greatest most Merciful ...and no its not hateful.nor is it torture
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irsha
03-21-2006, 01:23 PM
Not hateful? Nor torture? To slowly kll someone by throwing small stones at them, making sure you prolong the agony?
Oh sure, I can just immagine it.
two lovers are found making love- they are married, but in a violent and loveless marriage, in a moment of consoling each other they fal in love, they are caught making love, so they are found guilty by a sharia court of men (of course no women to give a womans perspective) they are then dragged out and buried to their necks. they then watch each other get hit by small stones, thge first ones bring up bruises, the lovers cry for each other and for their own pain, can you immagine watching one you love be in such pain?, then they see each other getting more bruised, the agony of the stoes is miniscule compared to the agony of watching your loved one in so much pain, knowing they are going to die- all for loving you. They get hit with more stones till the skin breaks, blood trickles down their face, then more and more stones- not too big so they dont pass out, then you see some of your lovers skull exposed, then more and more- their once beautiful face covered with blood and cuts, more brain, then stones penerate the brain, your lover goes groggy and starts to faint- but you try to hang on for one more look at the face you love, more stones until your lovers head is misshapen and mangled and you hear them expire their last breath!!!!!!!!
Oh sure, its not torture, its not hateful- its very nice and loving.
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S_87
03-21-2006, 01:27 PM
did the lovers not hear of divorce? :rolleyes: and then marrying?
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irsha
03-21-2006, 01:28 PM
Then immagine that happening to your child- because they experiment with another of the same sex- which is quite common, or your mother because she was brought up to be a muslim, never having the chance to se anything from another relogion, and when she does, whe decides that she believes in the new religion. Oh, but there is no compulsion in religion- just get killed if you follow another!
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irsha
03-21-2006, 01:30 PM
never heard of muslim men, particularly from harsh arab countries threatening their wives with death if they leave? NO?, I have seen it here, I even had to help a girl of 17 escape a violent marriage to a man who was "arranged" for her and used to rape her anally and threatened her with death if he found her.
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irsha
03-21-2006, 01:32 PM
Oh, and I suppose a divorce piece of paper is worth all that torture and agony? Now try and tell me, its not torture and its not hateful?
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Muezzin
03-21-2006, 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
Oh come on? You are writing here so I gather you can see? The hijab has the actual words HATE written on them!!!
Eh? I've seen CK hijabs but never 'Hate' ones. :p
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- Qatada -
03-21-2006, 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
two lovers are found making love- they are married, but in a violent and loveless marriage, in a moment of consoling each other they fal in love, they are caught making love,

Why don't they just get a divorce (from their previous marriage) and marry each other? At-least that way, they won't be doing anything sinful will they?

At the same time, obviously islam allows divorce if the marriage isn't going well. Especially if the partners aren't being fair to each other [i.e. abuse in the home.]


When they make love outside of marriage, if the person has a child - who's going to earn for that child? who's going to support it? Do you really think that the love is so strong that the couple will support each other all their life? What will happen if the womans previous husband finds out, don't you think there will be more violence?

Rarely does a marriage that has sexual relations out of wedlock be successful, because anyone can leave the other person whenever they will. That love doesn't last forever, and it will die out. Who will support the woman, and the child then?
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irsha
03-21-2006, 01:35 PM
you too? The hijab actually even say the words H-A-T-E on them, cant you read? scroll down the avatar
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Muezzin
03-21-2006, 01:35 PM
And to add to Fi_Sabillillah's post, as Tina Turner said: 'What's love got to do with it?'

:p

Edit: Irsha, I've looked at the avatar, and I still don't see the word 'hate'. Unless it's in Arabic or something.
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irsha
03-21-2006, 01:38 PM
I suppose that poor 17 ear old girl deserves to get stoned to death if she dares to make love to another person, she knows for a fact the man will kill her if he found her, and she must be find-able to get a divorce! How can you excuse such barbarism, there are plenty of people waiting to adopt, they can also get pensions for single mums.
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Bittersteel
03-21-2006, 01:39 PM
err...what's going on here?
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irsha
03-21-2006, 01:40 PM
well, its there- its says in english "hate america"
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irsha
03-21-2006, 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
And to add to Fi_Sabillillah's post, as Tina Turner said: 'What's love got to do with it?'

:p

Edit: Irsha, I've looked at the avatar, and I still don't see the word 'hate'. Unless it's in Arabic or something.
Nothing, that exactly my point- what HAS love got ot do with it? Your God doesn't love, he hates, he wants people to be tortured to death for what is a minor "crime: in the rest of the civilised world
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Ghazi
03-21-2006, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
Nothing, that exactly my point- what HAS love got ot do with it? Your God doesn't love, he hates, he wants people to be tortured to death for what is a minor "crime: in the rest of the civilised world
Salaam

Now there was need to insult your lord is there.
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irsha
03-21-2006, 01:44 PM
scroll down the smaller scrolling tool
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Cheb
03-21-2006, 01:44 PM
Ragarding punishments, Irsha I suggest you read this. It is long but would give you a better understanding. Also pay attention to the conditions that stoning is to take place.

Question:
Assalaamu ‘aleykum,

How can it be that in a case in Nigeria a woman is sentenced to death for adultery? The Qur'an specifies that the punishment with four witnesses for adultery and fornication is a hundred lashes (24:2). It is inconceivable that the Prophet (pbuh) would have either acted against this instruction, which is to flog people who do this sin, or if he ever did sentence someone to death at some point, then this verse must be taken as abrogating that punishment.

I've heard some people say that stoning only applies to married couples committing adultery, but that contradicts the Qur'an, and in the Nigerian case the woman was not even married!

I've also heard that scholars have agreed that this verse was referring to the first part of the punishment and that the guilty should also be stoned (after being flogged). This sounds like applying two punishments! According to the hadith upon which the ruling on stoning the married adulterers is based, when the woman requested not to be stoned, the response by the Prophet implies that they should not have done so.

In the Nigerian case, the woman is clearly appealing against the sentence. If she'd claimed to have been raped, would the charges have to be dropped?

Please explain what is the rationale (if any!) behind such ruling.

Jazakallahu kheyr for your time, wa salaam


Answer:

Thank you sister Safiya for this question.

First of all, I would like to bring to your attention that the authority for Muslims in Islam is not the practice of Muslims and Muslim States. Imam Ali (Allah be pleased with him) once said: ‘We know people by al-haq (the truth) and we do not know al-haq by people.’ This means that we should evaluate people by how strong their adherence and commitment to the true path and that we should not evaluate any path by those who are affiliated with or practice it.

The case you mentioned is only one of many other cases in several areas of the Muslim World, where shar’ia (Islamic law) is practiced primitively, if I may say, and away from the objectives and intentions of shari’a. One can see this clearly in the application of hudud (punishments). Some Muslim communities see hudud only as punishments for criminals; they don't perceive hudud as part of a comprehensive system that works in harmony. This system, which is a way of life, is clearly balanced by justice and aimed toward serving the interest of people.

Linguistically, hudud in Arabic means limits or preventions. Legally, they are limits, which prevent the crime from increasing in society, prevent the criminal from going back to similar crimes, and prevent those who think about the same crime from pursuing it. Hudud in this sense are not merely punishments, on the contrary, they are limits and preventive means placed within a larger framework of justice, related directly to the interests of people to serve the ultimate objectives of the Islamic law.

Secondly, I think it is useful to know that the punishment system in Islam has concerns that Muslims need to be aware of. It concerns that are aimed toward the three dimensions of any crime: the criminal (the one who carried out the act), the society (where the crime took place) and the victim (the one who was subject to the criminal act). These objectives are:
To criminals, punishment is kaffara (purification) and reforming for the re-acceptance into the society.

To society, punishment is a preventive method to save the society from crimes.

To victims, punishment is a mean of retribution.

Also, this system is governed by a few key principles, which are:
Every Muslim is accountable for his/her deeds and for every crime there is a punishment that is enforceable by the Muslim State. This principle makes Muslims believe that it is better for them to get punished in their life than to be punished in the hereafter.


The punishment should be prevented as much as possible. A’isha narrated that the Prophet (pbuh) said:

‘Ward off punishment as much as you can. If you find any way out for a Muslim then set him free. If the Imam makes a mistake in granting forgiveness, it is better for him than that he should commit a mistake in imposing punishment.’

Thus any doubt about the evidence should prevent the punishment.


Punishments were set down to protect and secure the ultimate five elements of people’s interests: al-dharuriyat (necessities). These are: deen (belief), an-Nafis (life), al-‘aqil (intellect), al-mal (wealth) and an-nasil (family and lineage).

In addition, it is important to know that in Islam, punishments applied by the Muslim State should be the last resort in preventing crimes and saving the society. The Muslim State should insure the fulfillments of the citizens’ needs in every aspect of their life. Moreover, practicing al-amru bil ma’ruf wa an-nahiyu ‘an al-munkar (enjoining the good and forbidding the evil) in its proper way comes before the application of punishments.

According to the majority of scholars, in its legal meaning zina is ‘the voluntary sexual intercourse outside of marriage when the male sexual organ is inserted inside the female one, regardless of the number of times.’

The act of zina is committed voluntarily, thus rape is not zina and any sexual act under constraint is not zina as well. Also, there should be no doubt that the two partners are not married to one another; any doubt in this sense makes the act not zina.

Finally, the sexual organ must be inserted inside the female vagina, thus any other intimate act, even if it is haraam (prohibited), does not qualify for any specific fixed physical punishment set out in Islamic law (i.e.hudud).There are about 10 conditions of zina you can refer to in books of fiqh (Islamic law).

Islam considers zina a major sin, an indecent act, and an evil path. Therefore, protecting society from zina is an evident aim of Islam. Since zina is considered a great sin and a detestable social illness, Islam required doubtless proof for convicting an individual of zina and severe punishment for those convicted.

There are three clear means of proving zina:
The person accused of zina (zaani) makes a confession and does not go back on his confession. Once the person retracts his/her confession, they are not punishable because there is no proof of the act.

Four reliable and pious men testify that they witnessed the act and actually saw the male sexual organ inserted into the vagina.

A woman without a husband found to be pregnant.
Scholars agreed on the first two methods of proving zina, but disputed the third one; some scholars rejected the third point as proof.

As for those convicted, punishment may be depending on the case; 100 lashes or stoning. The punishment for unmarried individuals is to be flogged 100 lashes. Allah said in the Quran:
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.


Surah 24 Verse 2

The punishment for individuals whom are married and commit zina is stoning until death. The Prophet (pbuh) said:

‘The blood of a Muslim who testifies that there is no true god but Allah and that I am Allah’s messenger, does not become permissible except for one of three acts: a married person who commits zina, one soul for another (killed) soul, and a man who abandons his deen (religion) and departs from jamaa’ah (of Muslims).’ (Sahih Muslim)

Also, the sunna recorded that the Prophet (pbuh) punished by stoning a number of people such as Ma’iz ibn Malik and Al-Ghamidiyah. Some scholars said the punishment for a married person accused of zina is both flogging and stoning, but the vast majority of scholars did not accept this and limited the punishment to stoning only.

Ibn Al-Qayim in his book A’lam Al-Muwaqa’in, after thoroughly discussing zina as a major detestable sin and explaining its danger to the society stated: ‘…for the zani (the one who committed zina) there are two conditions:
One, the individual, who is married; that has experienced marriage, understands the Islamic reasons for marriage, and has protected himself from zina and al-had (the punishment) and then commits zina. The punishment for those is more severe, because they have no excuse for committing haraam.

The second condition is when the zani is not married; that does not know what the married individual knows and therefore has an excuse to ease the punishment of zina to flogging rather than stoning.’
Allah knows best.
Wa salaam
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irsha
03-21-2006, 01:45 PM
I am not insulting God, I believe you are by saying he wants these hateful things, The last thing I want to do is insult God, I believe I am defending him.
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Cheb
03-21-2006, 01:46 PM
This is also a helpful link:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503544834

Peace.
Reply

irsha
03-21-2006, 01:47 PM
THere can be NO justification for cruel and unusual punishment, so I won't even bother reading that long post.
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Cheb
03-21-2006, 01:49 PM
That is very ignorant....No point of this debate then.
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Muezzin
03-21-2006, 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
THere can be NO justification for cruel and unusual punishment, so I won't even bother reading that long post.
Wait a minute... a couple of posts ago you were saying that the woman doesn't get her say, and this is unfair. That's a fair point. One should not be ignorant of all the parties' circumstances when deciding a case.

However, you then don't even bother to read this long post? Surely that goes against the philosophy of hearing both sides of the argument?
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j4763
03-21-2006, 01:53 PM
Here it is :rollseyes

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Cheb
03-21-2006, 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by j4763
Here it is :rollseyes

Ya I think we got that covered now ;)
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irsha
03-21-2006, 02:00 PM
fair enough, so I did read the post, but its still just justification on religious grounds that were made by men, I still say a loving God would NEVER call for cruel and unusual punishments, thats why the rest of the civilised world outlaws them. I am sorry, but if you believe that so cruelly killing someone for doing something with another consenting adult, then I pity you and the lack of love in your religion.
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irsha
03-21-2006, 02:01 PM
also in that picture is a person wearing the hijab that says HATE USA.
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Muezzin
03-21-2006, 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
fair enough, so I did read the post,
Excellent :)

but its still just justification on religious grounds that were made by men, I still say a loving God would NEVER call for cruel and unusual punishments, thats why the rest of the civilised world outlaws them.
I see.

I am sorry, but if you believe that so cruelly killing someone for doing something with another consenting adult, then I pity you and the lack of love in your religion.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else. All I ask is that people consider all the facts before reaching a conclusion, which you have done.
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Cheb
03-21-2006, 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
fair enough, so I did read the post, but its still just justification on religious grounds that were made by men, I still say a loving God would NEVER call for cruel and unusual punishments, thats why the rest of the civilised world outlaws them. I am sorry, but if you believe that so cruelly killing someone for doing something with another consenting adult, then I pity you and the lack of love in your religion.
All religions have such punishments. In reality, it is EXTREMELY hard to actually sentense someone to stoning. The fact is that if someone does get stoned, there is a big chance that they wanted it that way.
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irsha
03-21-2006, 02:10 PM
wanted to get cruelly stoned to death? Now you are just being silly
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- Qatada -
03-21-2006, 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
I suppose that poor 17 ear old girl deserves to get stoned to death if she dares to make love to another person, she knows for a fact the man will kill her if he found her, and she must be find-able to get a divorce! How can you excuse such barbarism, there are plenty of people waiting to adopt, they can also get pensions for single mums.

First of all, islamically - she can go to court and ask for a divorce, especially if she knows the husband will react violently. She should seek refuge somewhere else, and stay away from her husband.


Your point: "there are plenty of people waiting to adopt" - do you really think that people respected orphaned children 1400yrs ago? Once they adopted them - do you really think that all people treat their adopted children with care, or did they treat them as slaves? There may be people who may want to adopt now, but the child still is in danger of being abused, used etc.

Do you think that the mother feels happy living on pensions, just because her 'lover' ran away with another woman? Is that really true love?


I'm not trying to offend you, but you have to realise that all these laws are there for a reason. And you're trying to belittle the longterm effects which are the most important of all.

Not every child can have a parent once their orphaned, and pyschological studies have shown that the child is different if they don't have a father, or a mother to lookafter them.


People won't go near adultery/fornication this way, because they know the punishment and the bad effects it has, especially for the woman. The lover she once had, isn't there no more and that has much worse emotional scars than having sexual enjoyment for some moments within your lifetime. And the child through that sexual relationship doesn't have a father/mother, their whole life is a mystery and they always wonder 'who was my real father or mother?'
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irsha
03-21-2006, 02:19 PM
it seems muslims will excuse anything, even this horrible hateful thing, as long as someone can find a verse to back them up. You mentioned 1400 years ago? That is my point, those laws are not valid today, any more than its ok to marry someone young as 6 or take slaves today.
I gotta go to bed, I have had enough for today, you guys are convinced that this abhorent practice is ok, and I am sickened by it,
cya
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Cheb
03-21-2006, 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
wanted to get cruelly stoned to death? Now you are just being silly
I guess you didnt read the post after all.
Reply

Cheb
03-21-2006, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
it seems muslims will excuse anything, even this horrible hateful thing, as long as someone can find a verse to back them up. You mentioned 1400 years ago? That is my point, those laws are not valid today, any more than its ok to marry someone young as 6 or take slaves today.
I gotta go to bed, I have had enough for today, you guys are convinced that this abhorent practice is ok, and I am sickened by it,
cya
If you are an athiest, then I may understand your reaction. If you follow any of the three books, then you are simply being a hypocrite.
Peace.
Reply

j4763
03-21-2006, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
it seems muslims will excuse anything, even this horrible hateful thing, as long as someone can find a verse to back them up. You mentioned 1400 years ago? That is my point, those laws are not valid today, any more than its ok to marry someone young as 6 or take slaves today.
I gotta go to bed, I have had enough for today, you guys are convinced that this abhorent practice is ok, and I am sickened by it,
cya
Where people allowed to marry children as young as six back then :grumbling ! SICK!!!
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HeiGou
03-21-2006, 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by Cheb
All religions have such punishments. In reality, it is EXTREMELY hard to actually sentense someone to stoning. The fact is that if someone does get stoned, there is a big chance that they wanted it that way.
Someone just quoted a document that said many scholars thought that a pregnancy in an unmarried woman was proof enough. How hard is that to achieve?

And actually very few religions have such punishments. Essentially only Judaism and Islam.
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Muezzin
03-21-2006, 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by j4763
Here it is :rollseyes

Ok. I honestly couldn't see it before - the computer I was using wasn't displaying the signature.

As to the message itself, either:

a) It's photoshopped.

or

b) It's 'freedom of expression':rollseyes :p

Originally Posted by Hei-Gou
Someone just quoted a document that said many scholars thought that a pregnancy in an unmarried woman was proof enough. How hard is that to achieve?
Even if the woman was a victim of rape and hadn't said anything about it since she feels (unecessarily in my opinion) ashamed?
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HeiGou
03-21-2006, 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by Cheb
If you are an athiest, then I may understand your reaction. If you follow any of the three books, then you are simply being a hypocrite.
Christians don't stone. And never have.
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Cheb
03-21-2006, 08:51 PM
No I dont believe they do. That part I was referring to them sentencing people to death for converting.
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irsha
03-21-2006, 10:16 PM
Christians certainly do not sentence people to death for converting to other religions, I don't know if Jews do. As to the pictures, why do muslims always come up with excuses like that? A muslim has it on her avatar, I didn't put it there! I just pointed it out. I have also seen the thousands of muslims chanting and yelling those same hate messages, especially when they were stirred up about some cartoons, so why do they need to have been photoshopped?
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Muezzin
03-21-2006, 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
Christians certainly do not sentence people to death for converting to other religions, I don't know if Jews do. As to the pictures, why do muslims always come up with excuses like that? A muslim has it on her avatar, I didn't put it there! I just pointed it out.
Okay. I'm not accusing you of anything.

I have also seen the thousands of muslims chanting and yelling those same hate messages, especially when they were stirred up about some cartoons, so why do they need to have been photoshopped?
Fair enough. Even if it's not photoshopped, it's protected under freedom of expression. And even though I don't agree with messages of hatred, people are free to make them unfortunately.
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HeiGou
03-22-2006, 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Even if the woman was a victim of rape and hadn't said anything about it since she feels (unecessarily in my opinion) ashamed?
Allegedly this is what happened to the woman in Nigeria they were going to stone. Except I think she did mention it. It was just that she could not find four adult male witnesses and unfortunately the judges did not seem to share the same view of the Law that Ansar al-Adl does.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-22-2006, 10:11 AM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
I don't think she said you lied, did she? It was another woman.

Myself, I do not see a lot of hate in that signature although it is very dark and frankly depressing. It is an improvement over the SAM-totting jihadis she has used in the past. Still I expect to see Darth Vader walk into that sig at any moment with the full Imperial March sound effects. The Emperor inspecting his Imperial Storm Sisters perhaps.
LOOOOOOOOOOLLLLL!!!!!!!!!
Hey... black is not depressing!


Well everyone can calm down, I have changed my signature. Man, you'd think I had actually hurt someone by the way people were going on about it. But don't get too happy, I frequently change my signatures and avatars... I didn't do it to please any one. If I changed it for anyone, it would be renak. She's a really nice gal, and I would never want to offend her. Anyway, this thread has been completely derailed. BACK ON TOPIC!
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irsha
03-22-2006, 12:18 PM
I don't think you should have changed it, if that how you feel.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-22-2006, 12:34 PM
I like this one better... that's why I changed it. But I also didn't want to offend renak, who herself is American.:)
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irsha
03-22-2006, 12:38 PM
So why did you have it there in the first place? Do you hate the USA?
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DaSangarTalib
03-22-2006, 12:42 PM
its actually her choice whatever sig she wants what u so upset for? and so what if ppl hate US they rightly do so..who wouldnt hate such an oppresive government.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-22-2006, 12:44 PM
If I hate the USA then shouldn't I hate renak? Which i certainly don't. I have no problem with the USA, but with the government. If you don't believe me, then I really don't mind. There are alot of american Muslims anyway, so technically your accusations would mean that i hate my brothers and sisters in Islam. I certainly would not harbour such bias feelings in my heart than to hate an entire nation. And the signature is down now... so let's all just forget about it. This thread is about a completely different matter. There was a thread started about my signature by another member and a moderator closed it down, so I don't think i broke any forum rules.
Back on topic now please?
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irsha
03-22-2006, 12:52 PM
hey calm down, if you re- read my post, I did not accuse you of anything, I asked a question. Anfd I think in your answer, you said to that other fruit loop what any sane person would think.
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DaSangarTalib
03-22-2006, 12:53 PM
ok i think ppl need to get back on topic or stop posting!
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-22-2006, 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
hey calm down, if you re- read my post, I did not accuse you of anything, I asked a question. Anfd I think in your answer, you said to that other fruit loop what any sane person would think.
Is this statement aimed at me? Who's the fruit loop?
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irsha
03-22-2006, 01:00 PM
I said I did not accuse you of anything, I simply asked a question, and anyone who hates an entire nation of people is a fruit loop ( so, not you, you already said you did not)
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DaSangarTalib
03-22-2006, 01:03 PM
*AHEM*

Originally Posted by Fight&Die4Allah
ok i think ppl need to get back on topic or stop posting!
:rollseyes
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-22-2006, 01:03 PM
ok...
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Knut Hamsun
03-22-2006, 11:57 PM
So, the Dutch video for would be immigrants... Yay or Nay, my fellow forum members?
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-23-2006, 01:00 AM
[S]Huh?[/S]
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Knut Hamsun
03-23-2006, 02:13 AM
Huh?
That is what this thread is about. Or was about originally.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-23-2006, 02:15 AM
Oh sorry... threads get so derailed we sometimes forget what they were initially about.
Erm... Nay?
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Knut Hamsun
03-23-2006, 02:27 AM
Oh sorry... threads get so derailed we sometimes forget what they were initially about.
I understand. Yes they have a way of getting off track. So much to think about.
Erm... Nay?
lol
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Malsidabym
03-26-2006, 06:19 PM
This video is a great idea, I am surprised noone came up with this idea sooner. Should be a requirement to watch a similiar video to immigrate to any country. That way there are no excuses if you behave badly after you have arrived, and encounter things you don't like.
Originally Posted by irsha
I think is a wonderful Idea, it just says, you are welcome, but only if you can be tolerant to ther peoples way of life. I wish our government would have th guts to do the same.
exactly.

Originally Posted by Iqram
Allah tells us to stay away from fitnah afflicted areas......
Best to stay away.
Yes, good thinking.
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Malsidabym
03-28-2006, 03:46 AM
I think if this video idea were to catch on with all the immigration branches of all the nations governments, we would see a dramatic drop in many countries immigration rates (some might increase).
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HeiGou
03-28-2006, 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by Malsidabym
I think if this video idea were to catch on with all the immigration branches of all the nations governments, we would see a dramatic drop in many countries immigration rates (some might increase).
I doubt it. After all how many Muslims move to the Netherlands because they think it is an Islamic paradise where Sharia is imposed? It is more likely they think it is a rich country where they can get work or unemployment benefits. So they will just nod their heads and say "oh yes, gay marriage, I'm fine with that, whatever you all want to do" and off they go. Who wouldn't?
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Malsidabym
03-28-2006, 09:37 AM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
I doubt it. After all how many Muslims move to the Netherlands because they think it is an Islamic paradise where Sharia is imposed? It is more likely they think it is a rich country where they can get work or unemployment benefits. So they will just nod their heads and say "oh yes, gay marriage, I'm fine with that, whatever you all want to do" and off they go. Who wouldn't?
Good point.
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Cheb
03-28-2006, 09:45 AM
Originally Posted by Malsidabym
This video is a great idea, I am surprised noone came up with this idea sooner. Should be a requirement to watch a similiar video to immigrate to any country. That way there are no excuses if you behave badly after you have arrived, and encounter things you don't like.

exactly.


Yes, good thinking.
And you guys keep talking about how we impose OUR view on others. Talk about double standards.
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Malsidabym
03-28-2006, 09:49 AM
Originally Posted by Cheb
And you guys keep talking about how we impose OUR view on others. Talk about double standards.
I don't understand. Please state what you mean.
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Knut Hamsun
03-28-2006, 09:53 AM
And you guys keep talking about how we impose OUR view on others. Talk about double standards.
But Cheb, the video is only showing potential immigrants LEGAL behaviour they will surely witness if they indeed end up living there. This policy stems, for the most part--from what I have read, mind you--from young muslim immigrants thrashing openly gay men in THEIR OWN CITIES. What harm can a video do (besides jihadi snuff flicks)?
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Malsidabym
03-28-2006, 10:00 AM
And you guys keep talking about how we impose OUR view on others. Talk about double standards.
Ok I was gonna wait till you answered but whatever.
This is not imposing anything. It is saying, "if you come to my country, this is what you will encounter. If you don't like it stay home." And then the individual has the choice, "ball is in thier court".
It can work for any country. Saudi could have a video with thier stuff, westerners view it before visting, if they don't like what they see, stay home. Netherlands, same thing. No double standard involved. In fact it is just straight up honesty. Makes it nice and easy for everyone. No surprises that way. No excuses.
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Malsidabym
03-28-2006, 01:01 PM
This video idea should prevent any possible problems an immigrant would have with integration, to any country around the world. I Just don't understand what the double standard comment is about. It doesn't even fit the topic.
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snakelegs
03-29-2006, 06:04 AM
surely in today's world the prospective immigrant has a good idea what to expect without needing a special video. i mean western culture is pervasive world wide.
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Malsidabym
03-29-2006, 06:09 AM
surely in today's world the prospective immigrant has a good idea what to expect without needing a special video. i mean western culture is pervasive world wide.

This may be true, but the video would eliminate any doubt. Kind of like, shall we say the waiver you sign before embarking on any kind of risky entertainment activities.
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snakelegs
03-29-2006, 06:19 AM
Originally Posted by Malsidabym
This may be true, but the video would eliminate any doubt. Kind of like, shall we say the waiver you sign before embarking on any kind of risky entertainment activities.
something like "i understand before i come to ______ that it is a craven, dengenerate, immoral, ammoral, sinful and perverted hell-bound society and hereby testify that i won't ----- about it once i'm there." :giggling:
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Malsidabym
03-29-2006, 06:21 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
something like "i understand before i come to ______ that it is a craven, dengenerate, immoral, ammoral, sinful and perverted hell-bound society and hereby testify that i won't ----- about it once i'm there." :giggling:
exactly. ( I may even like it a little)
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snakelegs
03-29-2006, 06:31 AM
:giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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HeiGou
03-29-2006, 08:25 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
something like "i understand before i come to ______ that it is a craven, dengenerate, immoral, ammoral, sinful and perverted hell-bound society and hereby testify that i won't ----- about it once i'm there." :giggling:
How about copying the Americans - they ask a whole lot of silly questions on their immigration forms ("Are you now or have you ever been a member of a terrorist organisation?" for instance) which no one in their right mind would answer with anything but a "no". The advantage is that if they did lie, the Americans can strip them of their citizenship and deport them without any fuss. So how about "I understand before I come to ______ that it is a craven, dengenerate, immoral, ammoral, sinful and perverted Hell-bound society and hereby swear that I won't ----- about it once I'm there and you can deport me if I do."?
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Knut Hamsun
03-29-2006, 08:28 AM
So how about "I understand before I come to ______ that it is a craven, dengenerate, immoral, ammoral, sinful and perverted Hell-bound society and hereby swear that I won't ----- about it once I'm there and you can deport me if I do."?
Thats all I want. The N.B.C. The No -----ing Clause. Perfect.
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Lina
03-31-2006, 11:52 AM
:sl:

In the meantime the video has been censored: no topless women, homosexual weddings or a popconcert.

:w:
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Malsidabym
04-01-2006, 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by Lina
:sl:

In the meantime the video has been censored: no topless women, homosexual weddings or a popconcert.

:w:
That's too bad, it should give the facts.
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Knut Hamsun
04-01-2006, 05:32 AM
In the meantime the video has been censored: no topless women, homosexual weddings or a popconcert.
Why did they change the video? Some Islamic pressure group whinning about something as minor as this? That is pretty weak.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
04-03-2006, 12:00 PM
Well would you like it if porn was shoved in your face? You can accept something without having to want to see it forcibly.
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irsha
04-03-2006, 12:54 PM
If you go to most beaches in Australia, you are likely to see women topless and many in G strings. Why not see that before you come to make sure you can handle it- so its not such a huge shock to see the naked body- We dont want you guys having heart attacks when you come here because your morals will be so offended.
Also I go on the bus all the time and hold my girlfriends hand or put my arm around her- Maybe the best time to see something like that is before you come here- I mean- noone here even batts an eyelid at us, but if you have just arrived from Saudi- You may get such a shock you will be outraged- and that would not be fair if you came here and want to live by our societies rules.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
04-03-2006, 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by irsha
If you go to most beaches in Australia, you are likely to see women topless and many in G strings. Why not see that before you come to make sure you can handle it- so its not such a huge shock to see the naked body- We dont want you guys having heart attacks when you come here because your morals will be so offended.
Also I go on the bus all the time and hold my girlfriends hand or put my arm around her- Maybe the best time to see something like that is before you come here- I mean- noone here even batts an eyelid at us, but if you have just arrived from Saudi- You may get such a shock you will be outraged- and that would not be fair if you came here and want to live by our societies rules.
So tell them.. no need to show them.
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irsha
04-03-2006, 01:01 PM
So, its better for tem to see it for the first time in the flesh, so to speak?
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MinAhlilHadeeth
04-03-2006, 01:05 PM
Yes but taht is going against their religion to see naked women. Fine, show them homosecuals holding hands if you must, but I don't see the point in showing them the naked women. Tell them that women are allowed to go around naked on beaches and if they don't like it they should stay away. Simple.
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irsha
04-03-2006, 01:10 PM
Sounds OK in theory, till you have to put up with muslim young men calling you "skippy ----" when you walk past them at Cronulla.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
04-03-2006, 01:24 PM
Well then ignore them. I get called worse things than that by westeners.
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Umu 'Isa
04-03-2006, 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
Well then ignore them. I get called worse things than that by westeners.
ditto :rollseyes
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irsha
04-03-2006, 01:34 PM
"skippy" is in reference to my being Australian, they dont seem to think they belong here.
As to ignoring them, yeah, we tried that, till my boyfriend friend got stabbed by one of them because he told them to have some respect. There was about 8 of them and just him, me and my girlfriend, real heroes. This is what noone told you about why the Cronulla riots started.
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Umu 'Isa
04-04-2006, 07:48 AM
you know the people who started the cronulla riots werent even muslim.. they were lebanese christians.. but a lot of people in australia seem to think all muslims are lebanese...
and im sorry to hear about your boyfriend..
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Umu 'Isa
04-04-2006, 07:49 AM
by the way we're way off topic..
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HeiGou
04-04-2006, 08:45 AM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
Well then ignore them. I get called worse things than that by westeners.
Really? I am appalled. What on Earth do you get called?

And tell them if they do it again we'll form a LI Posse and beat them up.
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HeiGou
04-04-2006, 08:51 AM
Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam
you know the people who started the cronulla riots werent even muslim.. they were lebanese christians.. but a lot of people in australia seem to think all muslims are lebanese...
and im sorry to hear about your boyfriend..
Lebanese Christians? Oh come on now, pull the other one. They were Muslims. They gathered at Lakemba Mosque to go out and beat people up. The Lebanese Christians are too busy getting on with their education and holding down jobs. The Governor-General of NSW isn't a Lebanese Muslim is he? He wasn't down the beach harrassing women. The Governor-General and Premier of Victoria are not Lebanese Muslims either? They haven't spent all week down the beach calling women ----s. Do you think there is a link there?

Lebanese Muslims join jobless queues
Dennis Shanahan, Political editor
April 03, 2006

AUSTRALIAN-BORN Lebanese Muslims experience higher unemployment and lower educational achievements than second-generation Lebanese Christians or Muslims from other countries.


A Monash University study carried out in the wake of Sydney's Cronulla beach riots considered whether there was a difference in disadvantage between Christian and Muslim Lebanese.

"Lebanese Muslims are disadvantaged compared to Lebanese Christians (and compared to all Australians, both migrant and native-born)," the report says.

"Thirty-nine per cent of first-generation Lebanese Muslim men aged 25 to 44 in Sydney are unemployed or not in the labour force, as are 26per cent of the second generation of the same age (compared with 16 per cent of all Australian men in this age group)."

Social alienation and unemployment among Muslim youths has been blamed for rioting in Paris and contributing to terrorist sympathies and actions in London.

The same factors were cited as the underlying reasons behind the tensions between beachside Sydney's youths with an Anglo-Celtic background and southwestern Sydney's young people of Lebanese heritage. Most of Australia's Muslims live in Sydney and are concentrated in the Bankstown and Rockdale areas, in Sydney's southwest and on Botany Bay, in the city's south.

Melbourne academics Katherine Betts and Ernest Healy, in the paper to be published in the Monash population study, People and Place, used the 2001 census and Centrelink reports to detect levels of disadvantage among Lebanese Muslims and Christians. The study found that the highest levels of disadvantage, measured by unemployment, reliance on welfare payments and education qualifications, were among older Lebanese Muslim men concentrated in Bankstown.

The study also found that while other migrant groups, such as Vietnamese Buddhists or Bosnian Muslims, had high unemployment and poor education qualifications, Lebanese Muslims were worse off and second-generation Lebanese Muslims were not improving at the rates of other migrant groups.

The study suggests the Rockdale concentration of Muslims tend to have higher employment and educational levels and that the Muslims with the highest incomes and qualifications tend to live outside the heaviest concentrations of Muslims.

"Lebanese Muslim households are large and much more likely to be poor than all households, or than Lebanese Christian households," it concludes.

"Lebanese Muslim men have low levels of education, relatively high levels of unemployment, and a very high tendency not to be in paid work."

People born in Lebanon or who identify themselves as Lebanese account for a third of all Muslims in Australia and also account for most of the increase between 1971, when 22,000 Muslims were in Australia, and 2001, when there were 282,000, an annual growth rate of 8.8per cent.
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Umu 'Isa
04-04-2006, 09:01 AM
no the people that beat the lifeguards up were christians.. and then the aussies got mad and started saying, "Get the lebs out" or something along those lines. And then the lebanese muslims, christians started going around beating the aussies up and vice versa.

whats education got to do with the riots?
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Umu 'Isa
04-04-2006, 09:04 AM
HEIGOU may i ask are you from australia?

lebanese christians here are just as bad as the lebanese muslims. They hang around in gangs calling aussies names. But it is not all of them. It seems to be the men that do it andd from around 15yrs - 25yrs..
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HeiGou
04-04-2006, 09:23 AM
Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam
no the people that beat the lifeguards up were christians.. and then the aussies got mad and started saying, "Get the lebs out" or something along those lines. And then the lebanese muslims, christians started going around beating the aussies up and vice versa.

whats education got to do with the riots?

HEIGOU may i ask are you from australia?

lebanese christians here are just as bad as the lebanese muslims. They hang around in gangs calling aussies names. But it is not all of them. It seems to be the men that do it andd from around 15yrs - 25yrs..
Ok. Combining two posts into one. What is the evidence that the men, who were universally described as Lebanese Muslims, were in fact Lebanese Christians? What is the evidence that a single Lebanese Christians was involved in the rioting or the reprisals that followed?

Education clearly has something to do with the sort of dysfunctional, lazy, apathetic, mildly sociopathic behaviour displayed by a great many young boys of Muslim origin in the West. They are not busy keeping out of trouble and studying, they are unemployed, hanging around and harrassing women. There is a clear difference between low-crime low-unemployment high-education communities, like the Chinese, and high-crime, high-unemployment, very low-education communities like the Lebanese Muslims, indeed Arab Muslims.

I have been to Australia. I have friends there. I have Australian friends of part-Lebanese descent there. I assure you Christian Lebanese are not as bad as the Muslim Lebanese - they are out there getting jobs, working hard and passing their exams. But it does seem to be a problem of young men in that age group who hang around and harrass women. This has been a long running phenomenon in Muslim societies. The ayyarun have always done so in the Arab speaking world.
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Umu 'Isa
04-04-2006, 10:07 AM
well i can't find any articles now. They have all been deleted because it was about 5 months ago. Anyway heres a thread on it (it was merged with others, so just scroll down abit)

When it first happened it was on the news that the 2 guys were christian not muslim. I agree, a lot of lebanese here dont get an education. A lot of them drop out of school. And a lot of them take up labouring jobs and a lot of them are on benefits! Unfortunately they give in to peer pressure. But im telling you there are a few groups of lebanese christians who do the same... its not only lebanese either, ive noticed a lot are turkish and afghan.. they all hang around each other. Unfortunately majority of muslims in australia are NOT practising. I read on statistics some where that around 5% pray. And they do pick up like crazy, n cause trouble and they give muslims a bad name! its heart breaking..
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HeiGou
04-04-2006, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam
well i can't find any articles now. They have all been deleted because it was about 5 months ago. Anyway heres a thread on it (it was merged with others, so just scroll down abit)
Well I searched that and all I found was a lot of rather unfair denounciations of Australia, but not evidence of Maronite involvement at all.

When it first happened it was on the news that the 2 guys were christian not muslim.
I have done a quick search of the Sydney Morning Herald (there's still a League team called Cronulla? Wow) and got nothing. What news?

I agree, a lot of lebanese here dont get an education. A lot of them drop out of school. And a lot of them take up labouring jobs and a lot of them are on benefits! Unfortunately they give in to peer pressure.
I agree with that. They come from a rather disfunctional cultural background.

But im telling you there are a few groups of lebanese christians who do the same...
Small groups obviously. Where are the Muslim Governors? The Muslim Premiers? Why is it that someone like Steve Bracks can be Premier or someone of Lebanese descent can be elected by the Nationals, but not someone of Lebanese Muslim descent?

its not only lebanese either, ive noticed a lot are turkish and afghan.. they all hang around each other.
And Lebanese Muslims, Turks and Afghans have what in common apart from high crime rates, low literacy skills and high unemployment?

Unfortunately majority of muslims in australia are NOT practising. I read on statistics some where that around 5% pray. And they do pick up like crazy, n cause trouble and they give muslims a bad name! its heart breaking..
Absolutely. Do you think that if they practice the problem will go away? After all, their parents probably practiced.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
04-04-2006, 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Really? I am appalled. What on Earth do you get called?

And tell them if they do it again we'll form a LI Posse and beat them up.
:)... if i typed it out it would come out like this ***** ***** ******* ****.. etc.... gutter lanaguge if you get what I mean. Sometimes tehy're clever enough to make up a rhyme though. You don't know how many teenage yobs i've had to fight in my high school years in order to get home safe (and they WEREN'T girls!). Throwing rocks is the least of it. But hey, it makes me stronger each time it happens. I think they think they can intimidate me because I look all sweet like sugar and spice, but the force of my fist told them otherwise:okay:. I don't beat them up when they swear at me, only when they get physical.;D
Don't think i'm being sarcastic because i'm using emoticons:sister:.
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Cheb
04-04-2006, 05:23 PM
I think this pretty much says that violence is directly related to unemployment and a lack of education. As is the problem all around the word. Religion pretty much has nothing to do with it unless it is used with ignorance, it can be used as an excuse.
I mean look at African Americans in the US in the past (Getting better now). Look at pretty much all of Africa, look at the poorer countries in the Middle East and Asia. We should start working on educating our selves if we are to get out of this hole.
(Sorry for the off-topic comment)
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Muezzin
04-04-2006, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Really? I am appalled. What on Earth do you get called?

And tell them if they do it again we'll form a LI Posse and beat them up.
Or better yet, send a picture of their likenesses to the police.

It'll be like the Usual Suspects, but better.
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HeiGou
04-04-2006, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Or better yet, send a picture of their likenesses to the police.

It'll be like the Usual Suspects, but better.
I don't know. Kevin Spacey is pretty good and I think you'd have a hard time finding a better actor for that role. I mean, think what Joe Pesci would have done with it! Al Pacino perhaps.

As long as Johnny Depp plays me.
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Muezzin
04-04-2006, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
I don't know. Kevin Spacey is pretty good and I think you'd have a hard time finding a better actor for that role. I mean, think what Joe Pesci would have done with it! Al Pacino perhaps.

As long as Johnny Depp plays me.
I'd probably get Keanu Reeves. Not because he's stunningly handsome and the ladies choice. No, he'd play me because he's commonly perceived as an idiot. In my case, perception is truth. It'll be his most perfect role, up there with Ted and Neo!

And if not him, Hugh Laurie, because House rocks.

Never mind the fact that I'm not white. I'd want Mr T to play me in a movie, but knowing my luck I'd end up with Gary Coleman.

I'm not black either. But then, most of the Bollywood actors look too stupid to play even me.

...and we've probably added as much levity to the topic as we can before a mod/member gets riled up. :)
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Light Of Life
04-04-2006, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
As long as Johnny Depp plays me.
Do you wear eye-liner? :)
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HeiGou
04-04-2006, 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Light Of Life
Do you wear eye-liner? :)
I assume that is forbidden in Islam so I'll decline to answer. But I think I'd look gorgeous. Maybe even fabulous. Which raises an interesting question - it must be banned for women too, isn't it?, except in the privacy of their own home?
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Light Of Life
04-04-2006, 08:56 PM
I think gorgeous would look better than fabulous. But perhaps that's subjective. As for eyeliner being banned, I'm not sure. It's probably one of the issues that depend on who you ask. Most Muslim and especially Arabic women that I know wear make-up.
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Knut Hamsun
04-04-2006, 09:07 PM
Maybe even fabulous. Which raises an interesting question...
...er, um, I think "fabulousness" is un-islamic. I guess it depends on the amount of sibilance used in its pronounciation! heh
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irsha
04-04-2006, 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam
you know the people who started the cronulla riots werent even muslim.. they were lebanese christians.. but a lot of people in australia seem to think all muslims are lebanese...
and im sorry to hear about your boyfriend..
You can excuse it all you want, I lived in Cronulla most of my life- They are muslim middle eastern men causing the problems, I know the difference, so do everyone else living there. Of all my friends living in Cronulla, every single one of them can tell a story of being harrassed by muslim young men. The cronulla people didnt just wake up one moring and say, hey its a nice day, lets have a riot, no they reacted to about 10 years of frustration and anger at what the muslim boys have been doing there
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Umu 'Isa
04-05-2006, 01:38 AM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Well I searched that and all I found was a lot of rather unfair denounciations of Australia, but not evidence of Maronite involvement at all.



I have done a quick search of the Sydney Morning Herald (there's still a League team called Cronulla? Wow) and got nothing. What news?
like i said i couldnt find anything on it, as it was 5 months ago.. its probably all been deleted.



Small groups obviously. Where are the Muslim Governors? The Muslim Premiers? Why is it that someone like Steve Bracks can be Premier or someone of Lebanese descent can be elected by the Nationals, but not someone of Lebanese Muslim descent?
i dont know why they are not doing anything. I recently read an article in the lebanese muslims association magazine called 'The Fate of the Muslim Gangster,' it basically says these people are ruining the image of our beloved Prophet (saws) i might post it actually.


And Lebanese Muslims, Turks and Afghans have what in common apart from high crime rates, low literacy skills and high unemployment?
well they are all labelled muslims. But I have never seen any of em wit a beard, praying ect. They obviously do not practise. Or they wouldnt be hanging in groups harrassing girls, picking up girls, doing zina, alcohol, drugs, violence.. they are extremely misguided.


Absolutely. Do you think that if they practice the problem will go away? After all, their parents probably practiced.
Yes absolutely. It will go away. Well i dont know if their parents practise.. but i know its very hard to disciple a disobediant young man! especially when they tell you to shut up n slam the doors in your face and jump out the window of a night

Originally Posted by Irsha
You can excuse it all you want, I lived in Cronulla most of my life- They are muslim middle eastern men causing the problems, I know the difference, so do everyone else living there. Of all my friends living in Cronulla, every single one of them can tell a story of being harrassed by muslim young men. The cronulla people didnt just wake up one moring and say, hey its a nice day, lets have a riot, no they reacted to about 10 years of frustration and anger at what the muslim boys have been doing there
i never denied muslim men are down there doin that stuff.. allll i said was the lifeguard bashings were two lebanese CHRISTIANS.. im australian and i was non muslim once.. and i know the types of things they used to say... and it is 100% not islamic..
“The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely or speak rudely.” (Tirmidhi)
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HeiGou
04-05-2006, 08:13 AM
Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam
like i said i couldnt find anything on it, as it was 5 months ago.. its probably all been deleted.
Well I would appreciate it if you kept looking.

i dont know why they are not doing anything. I recently read an article in the lebanese muslims association magazine called 'The Fate of the Muslim Gangster,' it basically says these people are ruining the image of our beloved Prophet (saws) i might post it actually.
I saw it. And yet Bob Katter sits in Parliament. Steve Bracks runs Victoria. Why are Maronites doing so much better than Sunni and Shia Lebanese? It si not as if the second generation is donig any better than the first. Do you think anyone is to blame apart from me, Joe, Irsha and all the other kafirs around here? Do you think that this is reflecting a dysfunctional culture and it needs to change?

well they are all labelled muslims. But I have never seen any of em wit a beard, praying ect. They obviously do not practise. Or they wouldnt be hanging in groups harrassing girls, picking up girls, doing zina, alcohol, drugs, violence.. they are extremely misguided.
They are more than labelled Muslims. They come from a Muslim background. Their culture is shaped by Islam. They may have abandoned all the tough parts of that religion, but the culture has remained don't you think? Muslim men have always hung around in groups in cities and harrassed women. I admit they have not had many opportunities for alcohol, drugs and zina, but violence is not unheard of. I agree they are misguided. But what needs to be done? If they were more pious that would be a good thing except that the sort of piety they are likely to pick up is neo-Kharijism in my opinion. Why is that?

Yes absolutely. It will go away. Well i dont know if their parents practise.. but i know its very hard to disciple a disobediant young man! especially when they tell you to shut up n slam the doors in your face and jump out the window of a night
Well if their parents came from Afghanistan it would be hard not to. It is, I agree, hard to discipline young men. Especially in the West. And yet the non-Muslim population does not have these sorts of problems. God knows the Chinese community does not and they suffer more racism than Muslims. If they were more observant it might go away but it is more likely it would just defer the problem for the next generation. They are not adapting to Western society well in my opinion and they need to rethink their values until they do.

and i know the types of things they used to say... and it is 100% not islamic..
“The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely or speak rudely.” (Tirmidhi)
And yet it is, roughly, 100 percent associated with people from Muslim backgrounds. The Irish-Australian community is not down there being a problem. The Chinese-Australians are not. Nor are the Greeks or Italians. And it is not as if some Italians do not try it on whenever they can - but they have some minimal level of respect for women and so it is annoying but not as bad. You would never hear an Italian-Australian hitting on a Skip by calling her a ----. Why do you think that is? What values are being taught here?
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Umu 'Isa
04-05-2006, 10:55 AM
majority of these lebanese muslims are born here in australia, and their parents too.. look i agree that there are SOME bad and SOME good. Not all... a few lebanese people i know are IN uni and ARE studying.. so it is definately not ALL.. there are bad people everywhere..
what are you trying to say? that Islam makes them act like this? I quoted you a hadith, saying, “The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely or speak rudely.” (Tirmidhi) so therefore it is NOT islamic. They are brought up here so i doubt their culture is very islamic.
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HeiGou
04-05-2006, 11:21 AM
Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam
majority of these lebanese muslims are born here in australia, and their parents too.. look i agree that there are SOME bad and SOME good. Not all... a few lebanese people i know are IN uni and ARE studying.. so it is definately not ALL.. there are bad people everywhere..
what are you trying to say? that Islam makes them act like this? I quoted you a hadith, saying, “The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely or speak rudely.” (Tirmidhi) so therefore it is NOT islamic. They are brought up here so i doubt their culture is very islamic.
I know of a few Australian Muslim Lebanese that are in University and even employment! So I don't want to run the entire community down. I am not trying to say that Islam makes them do it. Perish the thought. But some cultural influence does. They may be brought up in Australia, but it is not Australian culture that makes them do that because, as I am sure Irsha will tell you, Anglo-Celtic Australian men do not do that. Much. So if we agree it is not Islam, what is it in your opinion?
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Umu 'Isa
04-05-2006, 11:28 AM
okay we'll come to that agreement.. I just came from my friends house, shes lebanese muslim. And they are the most friendly people i have ever met. They treat me like part of their family, and i dont understand why these young men do this. They (my friends) dont even know. It is not part of their culture at all. These men are just uncontrollable. I have no idea where it started but it continues due to peer pressure..
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