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Originally Posted by Knut Hamsun
"winning" is absolute. Can't be partially. Did Israel reverse their crushing victory over Egypt by giving them back the Sinai Peninsula? A concession, yes, a win, no.
I disagree. Most wins are partial. Don't let the history of America fool you. Did Israel reverse their win over Egypt? Well no, but Egyptian violence forced Israel to consider concessions and they got the Sinai back. Has Palestinian terror got Israel out of Gaza? Yes it has and at a lower price than Egypt paid. It is not a final victory but it is a step on the path.
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My reply is a bit out of context and pedantic, but here goes, anyhow:
The Palestinians receive more aide money, medicine and food(from the west) than any other group in the world. They would simply starve and die without it. Full stop. And a crap load of weapons etc from the arab/muslim world.
Well Israel and Egypt are the two biggest recipients of US aid but I will conceed that the Palestinians are entirely dependent on UN aid which is paid for by the West. But leaving them to starve, while possible, is not a viable option given Western public opinion. Nor do I see it as relevant.
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I agree. This is my point. They should stay. Because they will NEVER leave.
They have left Gaza. A huge proportion of young Israelis already live overseas. As life in Israel becomes more brutal and less worth living, I expect that more will do so.
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Please be a realist for a minute. We know that the Israelis are never going to allow for the right of return--it wouldn't be a Jewish state if they permitted such. I have said, here, nothing resembling "I think they are right/wrong" (maybe I have ,doh!) as I can sympathize with both sides here. But when suicide-bombing is the final, ultimate offense for a cause, it is time to call it quits, be the "bigger person", and end it.
I agree they will never give the Palestinians a right of return. Which is why the Palestinians will have to fight for it. They have tried peaceful protest, they have tried normal guerilla warfare and they have tried terror. They have found that suicide bombing works for them. And it works. There is no point saying that they should be bigger people because it ain't going to happen and why should it? Palestinians have an alienable right to live in their homeland and frankly the Israeli Jewish population is better off in the West. At some point enough violence will make one side or the other compromise. Which side do you think that will be? It is just a question of how many people have to die before the Palestinians get some justice.
In the meantime the West, which ahs given them nothing, will go on giving them nothing. As Mao Zedong once said, brooms don't sweep floors by themselves.
HeiGou,
I don't know the history of Israel as well as you seem to (I don't know it too well at all, actually), but what would you say to the argument that goes like this:
The land on which Israel now sits was won by the British as a result of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, which in turn was a result of them being part of the Axis, the side that lost WWI. British diplomats/power brokers then authourized, sanctioned, fostered, encouraged, and rendered "official" the state of Israel on said "conquered" lands. The controversial vote of the UN on the Israeli question, though close, was affirmative, and as such, Israel has since then existed in various shapes/borders. Israel has been attacked (or has pre-emptively attacked) by the surrounding countries on at least 3 occasions, all of which were rebuffed... Blah, blah, blah...
You get the general flavour... and..... I don't really have a point here, just that that issue is such a mess and each's historical narrative is rife with revision and lies. I don't really think I have a side, but civilian suicide bombing as the only effective "military" deterrent just seems like the end of the game. As for your " and frankly the Israeli Jewish population is better off in the West", well yes, only because the whole west is not hell bent on their extermination. I would rather the Jews have their own state and not re-disperse themselves throughout the West with another Diaspora. And I would sure want my own little country if I were Jewish, not just parts of Manhattan and LA. You've got to give the the fear of genocide type psychology of the jews a bit of validity, no? But again, I am just curious what you think and wishing there was a just solution for both sides--one that would possibly actually happen--again, I don't think they will ever leave there.