Understanding Islam as Economic policy

[Deus]

I assume a large number of you in this thread would like to have a true islamic state with 100% Sharia law. Irrespective of my own personal views, I'd like to ask how you would solve certain economic problems that Islam poses. such as

1) a rigid taxation law which is inflexible and doesn't change relative to fluntuations in the economy. Furthermore, the tax is a flat tax is wealth and not income which is quite peculiar.

2)No interest rates? I can imagine a modern economy without interest rates

3) Some people seem to believe that stock markets and other forms of investment are akin to gambling?

4) The prophets saying (loose translation) " waylun le kully umatin ta'akulo mimma laa tazra'a wa talbisu mimma la tasna'a" which translates into a warning which advises moslems to only eat what mostly what they grow themselves and wear what they produce themselves. The sayig is often used as a warning for moslems to be autarkic and self sufficient. This mercantilist idea has failed repeatedly since the 18th century in economies around the globe such as the soviet union, syria, Saudi Arabia and China till Deng Xioopeng instituted his reforms in 1979. Virtually all modern economic theory and thought finds that free trade and comparative advantage was the way to go in order for consumer surplus and effieciency to increase (more output lower prices).

5) What about the taxes on non-moslems how is that solved?

6) Women and the economy. This is a problem, if women are encourage to remain at home and raise the children then you would have 1/2 of the work forced unemployed, like Saudi Arabia which has restrictions on female mobility. This would be a huge ineffeiciency in the market.

7)Centralized power in the form of a caliphate can be disastrous since centralzed economies are almost always doomed to failure.

8)Would there be minimum wages or unions? I know in Jordan there are Islamic labour unions which rarely act rationally and only concern themselves with economic issues

9)Limiting free trade which mutually benificial with Israel in most cases it is even more benificial for the moslem countries such as the red dead canal project between jordan and ISraeal, opposed by islamists and would benifit jordan a whole lot more due to Jordan's water shortae and is financed mostly by Israel

10) Back to interest rates again, In order for growth to occur one needs Invstment for Invetment one needs to take out loans, Why would banks give out loans if they cannot make a profit through interest rates? Wouldn't that be a problem for economic development? Also, Say for example your moslem friend gives you a loan of 1000 dollars and you are both moslem so there is no interest on the loan, and you agree to pay back the loan in 5 years, after 5 years the economy has experienced deflation and the value of money increased, and you pay back the 1000 dollars to your friend, but those 1000 dollars are worth more now than they were 5 years ago due to deflation, what do u do in that case, similar idea with straight up inflation?

It seems to me that the greatest problem with an ISlamic nation state is its archaic economic models

does anyone have any comments,

[Deus]

So do we not have any budding Islamic economists for a rebuttal?

[snakelegs]

you raise some interesting questions. hope someone will address them.

[Deus]

So far it doesnt seem like anyone wants to address them

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[Knut Hamsun]

which translates into a warning which advises moslems to only eat what mostly what they grow themselves and wear what they produce themselves. The sayig is often used as a warning for moslems to be autarkic and self sufficient.

I am not an economist, but given the lack of arable land throughout much of the muslim world, and the very high number of muslims, it seems almost impossible for self sufficiensy. Nations trading with one another has enabled efficiency and convienence unknown before Modernity. With the number of people who would strictly have to follow such a strict rule, many would starve.

[Deus]

This has indeed happened in Sudan in the 1990s, The decided that only "rich and non-islamic" people import goods from abroad whilst referencing that quote from the prophet, as such there was indeed a famine.

However not all the middle east is a wasteland. The nile delta and certain areas of Sudan, Syria and the Jordan Valley are extremely arable. However production languishes under protectionist measures which do not provide incentive for innovation or productivity increases.

Free trade, in most cases, not all the time, is usually benificial in the long run to most parties. Small countries with specialized economies should benifit from trade more than say richer nations and larger nations in the west.

Free trade leads to consumer and producer surplus, nations that trade together normally don't go to war with each other and the creation of an interdependent global economy would foster cultural dialogue.

There are also comparative advantage issues from free trade that would be benificial

[snakelegs]

i like the idea of no interest - but how would you ever get any one to invest in anything without that incentive?
does any country have complete islamic banking only?

[Deus]

not really no country really has islamic banking, Saudi Arabia and Iran come close, but I've noticed hat a lot of people on this forum want a complete Islamic state as they believe it would be perfect I am trying to highlight the problems with a complete Islamic nation from an economic perspective.

I didnt understand why you like the idea of no interest? if its because you
wouldn't have to pay interest on loans then forget it because no one will give you a loan

[snakelegs]

i'm not really sure why i don't like interest - it is sort of an irrational quirk (i neither pay or receive interest).
but i can't imagine how an economy would run without it.

[Deus]

still waiting for some self professed moslem to answer the question ive posed

[Caliphate]

still waiting for some self professed moslem to answer the question ive posed

Assalamu alikom brother or sister, I have just seen your questions about how islam can solve economics. I will give you a website you can study about this matter and also what islamic state is and when you can say a country is an islamic state.

www.adduonline.com

if you speak arabic then try this website

www.alokab.com

Inshallah you will get a deeper understanding of your deen since Islam has a solution for all matters in society and not only for private life but also in the state, society and life.

Ma3asalaama

[Deus]

I have read the websites and found their economic analysis quite lacking, its as if they took a marxian method and dismantled it so that it is lacking substance.

[Knut Hamsun]

I have read the websites and found their economic analysis quite lacking, its as if they took a marxian method and dismantled it so that it is lacking substance.

I would have to agree with Deus, here. Those were very insubstantial explications.

[Deus]

Indeed,

The arguments made are concerned mostly with monetary policy and the movement away from the gold standard. The author seems to believe that it is part of some vast western conspiracy and advocates a return to the gold standard. The argument is so absurd that it should've even be dignified with an answer

Furthermore, the author is hesitant to acknowledge that capitalism, or at least proto capitalist thought is present within Islam. The problem is that Islamic authors such as himself refuse to update their thinking with the realities of the new global economy

[Deus]

That is not to say that the Gold Standard doesn't have merits. But rather the reasoning behind it presented by the author is ridiculous.
A gold Standard would generally decrease the ability of governments to finance debt and would limit government intervention in the economy. This contradicts the authors previous statements which call for a strong centralized government

[Bittersteel]

http://islamtoday.net/english/fatawa_form.cfm
you can ask your questions here.

Muslim countries nowadays have both Islamic banks as well as modern banks.

4) The prophets saying (loose translation) " waylun le kully umatin ta'akulo mimma laa tazra'a wa talbisu mimma la tasna'a" which translates into a warning which advises moslems to only eat what mostly what they grow themselves and wear what they produce themselves. The sayig is often used as a warning for moslems to be autarkic and self sufficient. This mercantilist idea has failed repeatedly since the 18th century in economies around the globe such as the soviet union, syria, Saudi Arabia and China till Deng Xioopeng instituted his reforms in 1979. Virtually all modern economic theory and thought finds that free trade and comparative advantage was the way to go in order for consumer surplus and effieciency to increase (more output lower prices).

first of all you have to provide for the source of the narration,okay?Then I am going to accept it if it turns out to be correct.and yes learn some history.

7)Centralized power in the form of a caliphate can be disastrous since centralzed economies are almost always doomed to failure.

yes it never happened like that.heck in the past we were capitalists.

9)Limiting free trade which mutually benificial with Israel in most cases it is even more benificial for the moslem countries such as the red dead canal project between jordan and ISraeal, opposed by islamists and would benifit jordan a whole lot more due to Jordan's water shortae and is financed mostly by Israel

politically motivated.

10) Back to interest rates again, In order for growth to occur one needs Invstment for Invetment one needs to take out loans, Why would banks give out loans if they cannot make a profit through interest rates? Wouldn't that be a problem for economic development? Also, Say for example your moslem friend gives you a loan of 1000 dollars and you are both moslem so there is no interest on the loan, and you agree to pay back the loan in 5 years, after 5 years the economy has experienced deflation and the value of money increased, and you pay back the 1000 dollars to your friend, but those 1000 dollars are worth more now than they were 5 years ago due to deflation, what do u do in that case, similar idea with straight up inflation?

do you have any idea how much the Arabs and Saudis invest abroad?
oh they just stopped a port deal some days ago right?
last of all Muslim women are allowed to own businesses and Saudi women DO own businesses.If you think its some defeat for Islamists and hoohah,liberation of Muslim women,and something against Islam please read the Prophet pbuh's biography.

some Arab countries got oil(Saudi Arabia) but just like someone mentioned no arable land at all.most of us got independance 50 years ago after WW2 whereas the European countries weren't under Imperial rule.Like it or not this is an important factor.it will take time for us to develop.Most of the Muslim leaders are corrupted and we got political infighting.If you think Islam is responsible for corruption then.....

[Deus]

Abara, being an Arab myself I am aware of the points you raise and agree with it, the source of the narratio is I believe al tirmithy, growing p in Jordan the ministry of education forces people to take religion for 12 years of schooling.

I am not sying that Arab countries are not capitalist in nature, the point I'm trying to make is that a very large number of people on this forum and elsewhere call for the establishment of a true islamic state with stricty adherence to Sharia and islamic tradition. My point to begin with and almost of everyone agrees with is that places like Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations influenced by Sharia law are not really strict adherence to Islamic law or tradition.

So I am trying to highlight that state strictly adhering to islamic law will probably face economic doom,

I've also tried to explain before on another thread that the former moslem Empries, the Abbassids and Umayyads weren't themselves strict adherents to islamic law in the same way that certain people are calling for an islamic stat today.

[Deus]

for part 9 you said "politically motivated" I don't understand?
I'm just saying that free trade with everyone is is MOST cases extremely benifical to all parties involved in the form of increased competition boosting efficiency, free movement of capital and the increase in consumer surplus,

in the part of women I know women in Saudi Women own businesses I've been there myslef twice. its not very visible but there are the odd reports of women owning businesses. However this number is mostly limited to a number of upper class women who as you said own their own businesses. When I said women lacked mobility I meant that it is hard for women to get around and find and keep a job since they can't drive and need a ma7ram with them. That is a huge ineffieciency in the labour market.

The only saudi women who own businesses are the elite few 94% of Saudi women are enemployed according to the OECD.

[Deus]

I have read the prophet's biography, there are some progressive elements and some not so progressive regarding women's right, it was shoved down my throat age 8 till 18 thank you very much state curriculum

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Deus,

3) Some people seem to believe that stock markets and other forms of investment are akin to gambling?

The majority of scholars do not hold such a view. You can read different perspectives in the following investigations on the issue:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543496
http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org/englis...in_st_mkts.pdf

5) What about the taxes on non-moslems how is that solved?

Not sure what you mean. Are you talking about Jizyah?
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503544994
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archi...izya-in-islam/

6) Women and the economy. This is a problem, if women are encourage to remain at home and raise the children then you would have 1/2 of the work forced unemployed, like Saudi Arabia which has restrictions on female mobility.

First of all, the idea of women working is not foreign to Islam. On the issue of women working, Shaykh Abdullah bin Bayyah writes

The issue really must take custom into consideration as well as the specific circumstances of the individuals involved.

In some regions of the world, if a woman were prevented from working, it could lead to serious disturbances at home. It could be that her staying at home is what would instigate those problems. This could lead to a whole host of undesirable consequences. For this reason, the issue must be considered in light of weighing the pros and cons.

Women from among the Companions used to engage in work. Asmâ’ bint Abî Bakr – the wife of al-Zubayr – used to work. She used to feed al-Zubayr’s livestock. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (5224) and Sahîh Muslim (2182)]

Then we have the woman who was told by some people to cease working on her date palms on account of her being in her period of mourning from her husband’s death, so the Prophet (peace be upon him) said to her: “Go to your date palms” He said: “prune your date palms.” [Musannaf `Abd al-Razzâq (7/25) with an authentic line of transmission]

So Islamic law is very flexible in this regard.

Secondly, there is a fallacy in saying that half the work-force is unemployed in a society where women mostly look after the family. The percentage of people working is the same as in a society where both men and women work because someone still stays home to look after the family, or they alternate.

7)Centralized power in the form of a caliphate can be disastrous since centralzed economies are almost always doomed to failure.

To gain a better understanding of the political structure of an Islamic state, please read the following:
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...-analysis.html

As for the rest of your questions related to the Islamic economy, it may be worthwhile for you to read HT's research and analysis of this subject, which is one perspective on these issues:
The Economic System of Islam by Taqiuddin An-Nabhani.

:w:

[Deus]

first, yes I was talking about the Jizyeh,

second when I was talking about women, wouldn't they eb unable to leave the house without a mahram, that would create a serious dostortion in the labour market.

furthermore, thank you for the link regarding the hub al tahreer publication. I've started looking through it, once again there are some rather unfounded assumptions upon which the analysis is made.

sepcifically regarding poverty and GDP, it is not unlike the link that was provided before. The Islamic solution from my understanding appears to be similar to the welfare state with regards to poverty. A flat tax financing welfare, there are no precise accounts of what that welfare system would look like other than it is simply transfer payments made from a treasury.

This is similar to other practices in welfare states, However, there is a major problem with this sort of set up especially since its so arbitrary. Transfer payments reduce incentives to work and contribute ro rising unemployment as seen most notably in places like france,

The gold standard discourse is interesting but also has some serious flaws,

The author also seems unaware of the hotelling theory with regards to natural resources. The idea is we revert money to gold and we wouldn't need interest rates anymore, well thats not really a change from a normal interest rate sysem because the price if gold should continue to increase and thus causing inflation. Also, the price of gold will never and can never be standard and thus appreciation on the value of gold is exactly the same as interest rate.

There are arguments for introducing or reintroducing the gold standard but no fully rational explanation is given

I will continue to read it but so far its extremely dissapointing due to its lack of well thought out analysis

[Knut Hamsun]

I have read the prophet's biography

Deus:
Which is considered the "authoritative" bio? I would like to read it. Thanks

[Deus]

I guess there is no real authoratitive bio, I was force fed ministry of education religion for 10 years and a such I feel like I've been through his biography, there are a lot of biographies out there by both western and Islamic scholars. I like Richard Eaton's anlaysis of early Islam. HE's written a number of books on the subject some of which argue that the prophet was not in himselt a cataclysmic event that propelled the Arabs into emprie buildin as is seen by islamic scholars but rather that the prophet was the embodiment of certain geopolitical movements occurring in the Arabian peninsula that set the tone for expansion.

Essentially the idea is secularist,
It could also be Abu-Loghod who wrote this , I can't remember its either richard eaton or abu lughod, both are very rewarding to read

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

first, yes I was talking about the Jizyeh

In which case the links I have provided should be sufficient. If you have any further questions, let me know and I can provide you with more information.

second when I was talking about women, wouldn't they eb unable to leave the house without a mahram

No, this is a misunderstanding of Islamic law.
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_se...main_cat_id=35
http://www.islamtoday.net/english/sh...sub_cat_id=548

As for your finding the HT publication lacking in depth, you need to first learn the basics of the Islamic economic system before moving on to a more in-depth analysis. How can one pass judgement on an economic system which they have not studied at an advanced level? Once you finish studying basic books, you can then proceed to more advanced material.

As for unemployment and zakat, the zakat money can be used to finance social institutions which would increase employment opportunities for the poor. The system was implemented quite effectively during the time of Umar bin Al-Khattab, such that it was reported that there were no people who came forth to recieve the welfare money.

The opportunities in an Islamic economic system has been studied and endorsed by a number of western economists. Several articles have been written by western researchers who have concluded that an Islamic system could function quite efficiently. I'll see if I can find some online links for you.

Deus:
Which is considered the "authoritative" bio? I would like to read it. Thanks

How absurd - asking an atheist for an authoritative biography on the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Anyone who had a sincere interest to learn about the life of Muhammad would go to the primary sources, the Muslims, to know which is the best biography. As it turns out, I have already compiled a list of Islamic resources here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/educatio...resources.html

Regards

[Deus]

Ansar,,,

That is just the thing with an Islamic system, there is no advanced level. I specialize in Economics as it is my field of study. The sections I have read saw far int he publication you provided for lack for one thing any form of empirical evidence.Economics has transformed itself into a near pure science due to its reliance on the scientific method and econometric (advanced statistics and mathematical tools). The Hizb al tahreer publication does not provide any econometric regression or mathematical formulae by which they reach their conclusions as such the research is essentially flawed. Furthermore, the analysis also lack any intuitive logical reasoning. The only argument I have seen so far worth some merit is the gold standard argument but even that is not so convincing, a convincing argument would be Alan greenspan's proposition for the adoption of a gold standard because he believes that governments should not be able to to impose inflationary tax.

Furthermore, Umar Ibn al khattab, that was almost 1400 years ago, the structure of the economy was almost completely different. It was an agrarian based society, even if that were true that no one was seeking welfare there is another blaringly obvious reason for that which was the islamic expansion during that time into the Levant and Egypt, a prolonged war effort generates enough employment

unless your proposing a return to an agrarian society with no no industrial or service base then the wealth of empirical data compiled by economists in the last 60 years suggests that zakat or welfare handouts never generate employment. It's fairly simple idea, if you're getting money for nothing you won't go out and find a job. Even if that money only provides you with the bare minimum, this coupled with the fact that Moslems tend to have large families (lots of children) means that the labour supply will be growing at a high rate). But the lack of a banking sector (as advocated by the removal of interest rates) means that investment is going to be extremely low)

Even the interest rate argument is flawed because introducing the gold standard will provide for an unofficial interest rate in the form of appreciation int he value of gold, but since there is no banking sector then you will have no facilitaror for investment, no entities providing loans for investment. Plus another problem with the gold standard is that we must assume that the rest of the world wont become an islamic economy, therefore if say we had the gold standard and our money was tied to gold and we are trading with say the rest of the world in dollars we have a major problem for a number of
reasons, gold is not liquid currency, it is not hot money moving gold takes more than a few clicks on a computer,
the other problem is that we assume that gold appreciates relative to the islamic state's internal demand and supply dynamic and we can assume that gold will get rarer and rarer because there is a finite amount of it on earth (hotellign theory) therefore, the value of our gold currency will become higher relative to the dollar (inflation is low and historically has been with the dollar) Therefore our exports will be much more expensive and the islamic state will become uncompetitive in the export market. This is a major problem because the export sector creates jobs for thousands upon thousands of people.

There are serious shortcomings in this analysis so far ive gotten through a third of it and hoping to finish it soon, its interesting to see a new perspective on things but its lack of correct methodology or intuitive reasoning makes it dissapointing,

asking me for the biography is not necessarily wrong because I have lived in a moslem country, as I said before, there are secular perspectives and islamic ones, the secular ones need not be unflattering, in fact ive read a a few secular ones that are highly positive and laud the prophet's statesmanship and political prowess.

[Deus]

I looked at your link regaring women travelling without a mahram,

I see that some individual imams might interpret the law like that, however, it appears that most islamic societies with sharia law most notably Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan limited female mobility based on the original ruling that says that women may not travel without a mahram. Hence it would be reasonable to assume that given a "strict" interpretation of Islam within an "ideal" and perfectly islamic state women would not be allowed to move without a mohram.
The link you gave me appears to be some sort of liberal interpretation but the lattter of the law stands as women cannot move without a mohram. If indeed women were allowed to move around and enter the labour market without discrimination then that wouldn't be a problem, but all indications suggest that women would not enjoy that sort of freedom under an islamic system due to the abundance of historical evidence that suggests otherwise.

[Deus]

thought of something new on the Umar Ibn al Khattab, production if a function of tis inputs namely labour and capital according to the formula Y = ALαKβ where a= Technology or Technological innovation, L = Labour and K = capital.

the umar Ibn il Khattab agrarian economy had little or no Capital, as such Labour was the complete input of production, Since the movemet away from agrarian based economy plus larger populations have necessisitated the use of capital in production for efficiency and total output to increase as such total output has increased but with a trade off in labour. This has augmented the economic structure quite markedly since Umar Ibn al Khattab as such the comparison is not valid.

Also it was really the advent of war that led to full employment

Furthermore, if the Islamic caliphate under Omar was so perfect why was he assassinated, of course I learnt of the embelishd version of a "madman" assasinating him but doesnt it have more to do with the fact that the assassin was bound in slavery and Umar refused him to be freed? but more importantly it is the economics that conern me and should everyone because nations economy is what determines a nations ability to succeed and prosper

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

That is just the thing with an Islamic system, there is no advanced level.

You're entitled your opinion, however uninformed it may be. Studying secular economic systems does not render one an expert on Islamic law.

unless your proposing a return to an agrarian society with no no industrial or service base then the wealth of empirical data compiled by economists in the last 60 years suggests that zakat or welfare handouts never generate employment.

As I pointed out earlier, the zakat money can be used to finance social institutions to increase employment opportunities amongst the impoverished of society. We find a precedent in the time of the Prophet pbuh who prohibited a man to beg and instead gave him some basic tools allowing him to start a business selling lumber. Thus, he focused on self-sufficiency.

As you should know, the various problems current economic and trade systems have sparked wide-spread debate, causing economists to analyse and assess opportunities available in other systems.
http://www.perfecteconomy.com/
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~harmony/whneweco.htm
http://www.strohalm.net/en/islam.html
http://encarta.msn.com/text_76156267...Economics.html
http://www.islamicvoice.com/june.97/economy.htm
http://www.listener.co.nz/default,2561.sm
Have you read the report on Social Capital and Globalization by Dr. Matthews and Dr. Tlemsani? Or the alternative perspective of Tarek El Diwany?
http://www.theproblemwithinterest.com/index.html

Ultimately, debating over the benefits of an Islamic ecnomic system versus another economic system is futile in this context for two reasons:

1. Until a system has been implemented accurately and on a comprehensive scale, its effectivity cannot be guaged. This has not been achieved with the Islamic system in the modern era, and I would agree with you that a comparison with the early Islamic empire is not accurate in many respects. Because of this, any objections one may raise against the system boil down to what is purely a matter of personal opinion - and we all know how varied that is amongst world economists.

2. It is a fundamental flaw in methodology to examine the Islamic system from a secondary aspect as opposed to its primary focus. It is akin to debating over the benefits of the prohibition of pork in Islam. One should begin by discussing the coherence and validity of Islamic theology.

asking me for the biography is not necessarily wrong because I have lived in a moslem country

So someone who lives in a muslim country becomes an expert on the Prophet's sirah? Again, quite an absurd notion. The reality is that non-muslims are not the ones to decide which are the 'authoritative' sources on Islam. Asking a non-muslim to recommend a book in Islam (while in the presence of Muslims knowledgeable about their religion) is clearly a sign that the questioner does not have a sincere interest to learn about Islam.

I see that some individual imams might interpret the law like that, however, it appears that most islamic societies with sharia law most notably Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan limited female mobility based on the original ruling that says that women may not travel without a mahram.

Acutally the two scholars I quoted are Saudi scholars. Shaykh Sâmî al-Mâjid is a professor at Al-Imam University, Riyadh Saudi Arabia. And Shaykh Muhammad al-Duhayyim is a court judge in Al-Layth District. So this is clearly not a minority opinion, and the time of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and later generations provides many examples of women in the workforce and part of the education system as well. In fact, there are many cases where it is compulsory for women to work. These include cases of female doctors, nurses, etc.

The website I gave you provides fatawa (religious rulings) from over 60 different religious scholars world-wide, including many professors of Saudi Islamic universities.

If indeed women were allowed to move around and enter the labour market without discrimination then that wouldn't be a problem

Exactly.

but all indications suggest that women would not enjoy that sort of freedom under an islamic system due to the abundance of historical evidence that suggests otherwise.

Perhaps you were unaware of the thousands (literally) of Muslim women who were scholars and held independent public study circles:
http://www.simplyislam.com/iteminfo.asp?Item=54138
http://www.islamtoday.net/english/sh...&main_cat_id=2

Furthermore, if the Islamic caliphate under Omar was so perfect why was he assassinated

What kind of argument is this? How does the manner in which one dies have to do with their efficiency as a ruler? Abu Lu'lu'ah was a Zoroastrian slave who belonged to Al-Mughirah.

[Deus]

I've decided to give up on this thread because I've gone through the links you provided and see that the corpus of Islamic economicts as it is called is simply not rational. There are also a number of contradictions between different would be scholars.

Some of the links refer to investment and the stock market as gambling, other do not.


Some want to abolish banking completely! some others just interest.

The links on abolishing interest do not come from peer reviewed academic sources. Just people who are angry they had to pay interest on loans or believe it to be haram. That is not an argument

one of the links takes paul samuelson completely out of context. and dismisses the position of savings in growth.

Lots of problems with these links, unfortunately there isn't really anyone on this forum or anyone with a basic understanding of economics to engage in debate so I think we should just end this forum now

[HeiGou]

>deletions<
2. It is a fundamental flaw in methodology to examine the Islamic system from a secondary aspect as opposed to its primary focus. It is akin to debating over the benefits of the prohibition of pork in Islam. One should begin by discussing the coherence and validity of Islamic theology.
>deletions<
The reality is that non-muslims are not the ones to decide which are the 'authoritative' sources on Islam. Asking a non-muslim to recommend a book in Islam (while in the presence of Muslims knowledgeable about their religion) is clearly a sign that the questioner does not have a sincere interest to learn about Islam.

The first bit is the reason why from any perspective other than a religious one, non-Muslims are precisely the people to ask. Muslims ask questions that are of interest to Muslims. Non-Muslims ask questions. You have made up your mind on several important issues before even starting. Which is correct from a religious point of view, but as far as new or interesting insights go, well, why would you be interested in that?

What kind of argument is this? How does the manner in which one dies have to do with their efficiency as a ruler? Abu Lu'lu'ah was a Zoroastrian slave who belonged to Al-Mughirah.

You think the frequency of political violence in the early period of Islamic history is irrelevant and uninteresting?

[Deus]

What I meant to say about umar Ibn al Khattab, thanks you for reminding me Heigou was that the Islamic state, even in Agrarian society was far from perfect as people claim as there were individuals such as the assassin in question who were slaves

[Deus]

I never claimed to be an expert on Islamic law,
I said that from en economics perspective these reforms want lead to growth and development,
alot of these sources, you provide, are non -academic or represent the extreme fringe of academic community,

[Deus]

last thing,

it wouldn't be wrong to ask me for a bio on the prophet because as I had mentioned many times before, I was forced to take Islam for 12 years in school as a subject over the course of those 12 years I have come into contact with a lot of bios on the prophet as sanctioned by state curriculm

[Knut Hamsun]

last thing,

it wouldn't be wrong to ask me for a bio on the prophet because as I had mentioned many times before, I was forced to take Islam for 12 years in school as a subject over the course of those 12 years I have come into contact with a lot of bios on the prophet as sanctioned by state curriculm

I agree. I think Ansar's comments to the contrary were pretty hasty. If I wanted the party line, I'd ask the party.

[Thinker]

first, yes I was talking about the Jizyeh,

I have read through a question asking how jizyah on all non-Muslims could be jusrified. The justification was that as non-Muslims don’t pay Zakah they must pay jizyah.

The explanation goes on to suggest that as non-Muslims receive the same protection from the state and may refuse (on religious grounds not to serve in the army, they should pay jizyah. It cites examples some of which I reproduce below:

In his covenant with the people of certain cities near Al-Haira, Khalid ibn Al-Walid, may Allah be pleased with him, recorded: “If we are able to protect you, we deserve the collection of jizyah; otherwise, we shall not offer you protection.”

The jizyah was also imposed on Muslim men who could afford to buy their way out of military service. If a Christian group elected to serve in the state’s military forces, it was exempted from the jizyah. Historical examples of this abound: the Jarajima, a Christian tribe living near Antioch (now in Turkey), by undertaking to support Muslims and to fight on the battle front, did not have to pay the jizyah and were entitled to a share of the captured booty.

My questions are:

Is the jizyah tax levied against non-Muslims in Muslim countries?

How do you rationalise using a donation to the poor to pay for an army?

[aamirsaab]

...
Is the jizyah tax levied against non-Muslims in Muslim countries?

I take it you mean, present muslim countries. In which case, I don't really know. I've only ever lived in Pakistan (but then, that country is full of so much corruption I wouldn;t be able to tell you what it is doing right!) I guess it sill is being levied but not sure at all.

How do you rationalise using a donation to the poor to pay for an army?

It's not a tax on the poor. It's a tax on the non-muslims who are living in an islamic state and aren't serving in the army that protects them.

If it was a tax on the poor, that country's army would be weaker than a small band of chavs!

[Thinker]

I
It's not a tax on the poor. It's a tax on the non-muslims who are living in an islamic state and aren't serving in the army that protects them.

Hi again,

My understanding is that there is Zakah (which is a requirement that all Muslims donate 2 1/2% of their income to charity) how charity is defined is another question)) and that the suggestion was that the justification for making non-Muslims pay jizyah was because they are not obliged to pay Zakah.

The problem I have (in trying to understand this explanation) was that the examples given were that the jizyah money was used to pay for the armed forces (protecting them). How can a contribution to help the poor be used to pay for the armed forces? Is it for example, the case that, a payment to armies or armed groups is acceptable in meeting the requirment to fulfill Zakah?

.

[aamirsaab]

Hi again,

My understanding is that there is Zakah (which is a requirement that all Muslims donate 2 1/2% of their income to charity) how charity is defined is another question)) and that the suggestion was that the justification for making non-Muslims pay jizyah was because they are not obliged to pay Zakah.

The problem I have (in trying to understand this explanation) was that the examples given were that the jizyah money was used to pay for the armed forces (protecting them). How can a contribution to help the poor be used to pay for the armed forces? Is it for example, the case that, a payment to armies or armed groups is acceptable in meeting the requirment to fulfill Zakah?

.

Ah you've been mislead. Jizya is not the non-muslim equivalent of zakat. It's completely unrelated to zakat since it deals only with the army/protection, whereas zakat is solely for charity. In other words; the justification for Jizya is NOT because non-muslims are not obliged to pay Zakah.

The actual justification in laymans terms is: if you're living in this state and you aren't a part of the army, then you should atleast be supporting the army.