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HeiGou
03-21-2006, 05:57 PM
Since Fight&Die saw fit to publish an article by Phillip Adams from The Australian, I thought I would post something else from the same Rupert Murdoch-own paper I normally wouldn't, just to balance things up. This is not, let me hasten to add, to stir up trouble, but to make sure people realise that the Mr Adams is not representative of the Murdoch press.

I will high-light the bit I really like.

Hope in heretical voices
At last, moderate Muslims are speaking out against the backward Islamic world, says Janet Albrechtsen
March 22, 2006


SELF-ASSESSMENT is a tricky business. At a personal level, too much of the stuff has you moaning on a psychiatrist's leather couch for years with no real benefit. Likewise, at a national level, or a cultural level, it can soon enough turn into unhelpful self-loathing. But get the balance right and it gives rise to an intellectual form of creative destruction and an important driver of progress. In the Arab world, self-assessment is a rare thing indeed. Which is why, when it does happen, it's downright explosive.

Enter Wafa Sultan on Al-Jazeera television, of all places, who recently delivered a provocative and brave self-critique of Muslims. Sultan's interview, just over a month ago, may not have made it into our media (notwithstanding The Australian's Cut & Paste, March 10), but Al-Jazeera beamed it into millions of Arab homes. Thanks to the internet, it has been replayed in a million more homes across the globe. Now this once unknown Syrian-born psychiatrist is surely topping the fatwa charts.

Sultan criticised the Muslim world for its backwardness, for shunning knowledge and progress, and for embracing terrorism. She said it was time for Muslims to stop the self-pity and to stop blaming others as justification for Muslim violence directed at the West.

The blame, she said, lay squarely at the foot of Islamic clerics who encouraged followers to reject progress and instead resort to violence.

"The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions or a clash of civilisations. It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilisation and backwardness, between the civilised and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality," she said.

The televised interview, a debate between Sultan and Egyptian religious scholar Ibrahim Al-Khouli, was a personification of the problem at hand. Sultan said she was no longer a Muslim, only to be denounced by the academic as a heretic: "There is no point in rebuking you, since you have blasphemed against Islam, the prophet and the Koran."

Ignoring Sultan on the grounds that she is a heretic explains why darkness has descended on large slabs of the Muslim world. In an interview with The New York Times, she said: "Our people are hostages to our own belief and teachings." And only knowledge can release them from this backward thinking, as it released her.

Sultan's comments were dynamite because self-criticism in the Muslim world is rare. The West, on the other hand, has mastered the art of questioning its flaws.

As former diplomat Owen Harries once pointed out about the US: "Everything bad we know about America - its crime and its excessive punishment, its corruption, its graft, its racial tensions, its inane political correctness - we know because Americans have told us about them."

The Muslim world's knowledge deficit has been canvassed before. At a 2002 scientific conference Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf described the Islamic world as "the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most unenlightened, the most deprived and the weakest of all the human race". Then came the groundbreaking Arab Human Development Report which, among other things, revealed that in the 1000 years since the reign of caliph Mamoun, Arabs had translated as many books as Spain translated in a single year.

But few episodes of Muslim self-assessment have been as confronting as Sultan's interview where she pointed to the obvious links between ignorance, on the one hand, and intolerance and violence, on the other. To paraphrase Sultan's remarks is to dilute their force. It's worth watching the interview at www.memritv.org, but here is what she said: "The Muslims have turned three Buddha statues into rubble. We have not seen a single Buddhist burn down a mosque, kill a Muslim or burn down an embassy. Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind before they demand that humankind respect them."

Sultan told The New York Times that she decided to leave Syria after members of the Muslim Brotherhood gunned down her professor in her university classroom, shouting, "God is great!"

She is writing a book that she says will "turn the Islamic world upside down ... I am questioning every single teaching of our holy book."

Unfortunately, there are few examples of this kind of Muslim self-examination. Instead, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Islamic fundamentalists want to change Western culture to fit their own: the orchestrated attacks against free speech arising from the Danish cartoons; a British survey that suggests one in four British Muslims want sharia law imposed in parts of Britain dominated by Muslims; fatwas placed on writers such as Salman Rushdie; the intimidation of some and slaying of others in the West who question Islamic culture.

The problems canvassed by Sultan are, with increasing speed, seeping into the West. Writing in The Wall Street Journal, one Muslim immigrant to Sweden recently described why she had decided to pack up her family and leave her Swedish suburb of Tensta. In short, because of the influence of Islamic fundamentalists.

"I'm tired of being expected to speak badly of Christians and Jews just because I'm Muslim. I'm tired of the hate preachers. I'm tired of seeing women condemned for the way they dress ... I never imagined that in the new millennium, and in Sweden of all places, my five-year-old son would have to defend and explain in his day-care centre why his mother doesn't wear a head scarf," Nalin Pekgul said.

Even those who do not accept that adopting Western values represents progress must accept that the Islamic world would benefit from a little self-assessment. Values immune from criticism are values insulated from improvement. That is why, provocative as they are, Sultan's comments are a sign of hope, not just for Muslims but for the West as well. Self-examination has started, but there is a long way to go. When comments such as Sultan's become less explosive, then we will know that healthy self-assessment is commonplace in the Muslim world.
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S_87
03-21-2006, 06:40 PM
so whos civilised and whos not

i dont call wearing next to nothing clothes civilised-thats backward too. the poor who had no clothes did the same in the old ages. i dont call issues like sex out of wedlock, homosexuality and things like that civilised..all these things are documented historically
of course this is not the whole west but nor is it fair she says things like


Sultan criticised the Muslim world for its backwardness, for shunning knowledge and progress, and for embracing terrorism. She said it was time for Muslims to stop the self-pity and to stop blaming others as justification for Muslim violence directed at the West.
of muslims..which is how im tryingto prove my point. muslims arent perfect but dont generalise us all

typical of these people...write a book anti islam-make money...easy fame woohoo...and by questioning the teachings of the Quran she is not a muslim and is cursed in this world and the hereafter

if shes what the west want- a moderate muslim questioning the Quran then i stand up and say i am a *backward* muslim and seek Allahs protection in ever being a *moderate* muslim of this sort


oh yh- shes not a muslim-shes says so in her programme- i remember her now. so whys she attacking someone elses religion? would she like it if someone attacked her? only she is extremely ignorant to be attacking the Quran because that is the word of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala


( can mods change the title because isnt a muslim....)

Whoever turns away from it (this Quran i.e. does not believe in it, nor acts on its orders), verily, they will bear a heavy burden (of sins) on the Day of Resurrection,
They will abide in that (state in the Fire of Hell), and evil indeed will it be that load for them on the Day of Resurrection;
The Day when the Trumpet will be blown (the second blowing): that Day, We shall gather the Mujrimoon (criminals, polytheists, sinners, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, etc.) Zurqa: (blue or blind eyed with black faces).

20:100-102
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Maimunah
03-21-2006, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by amani
so whos civilised and whos not

i dont call wearing next to nothing clothes civilised-thats backward too. the poor who had no clothes did the same in the old ages. i dont call issues like sex out of wedlock, homosexuality and things like that civilised..all these things are documented historically
of course this is not the whole west but nor is it fair she says things like



of muslims..which is how im tryingto prove my point. muslims arent perfect but dont generalise us all

typical of these people...write a book anti islam-make money...easy fame woohoo...and by questioning the teachings of the Quran she is not a muslim and is cursed in this world and the hereafter

if shes what the west want- a moderate muslim questioning the Quran then i stand up and say i am a *backward* muslim and seek Allahs protection in ever being a *moderate* muslim of this sort


oh yh- shes not a muslim-shes says so in her programme- i remember her now. so whys she attacking someone elses religion? would she like it if someone attacked her? only she is extremely ignorant to be attacking the Quran because that is the word of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala
true say sis
may allah guide us all, we all ment to be true muslims:)
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-21-2006, 07:01 PM
*applaud*.... true say ukhti amani!
:w:
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Sister_6038
03-21-2006, 07:42 PM
moderate muslim? thats a concept i fail entirely to understand
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-21-2006, 07:46 PM
Exactly.. i'd rather be called an extremist than a moderate since moderate + muslim usually imply that you don't practice very much. Hey, if i'm causing controversy I'm hapy:).
:w:
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Muezzin
03-21-2006, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Since Fight&Die saw fit to publish an article by Phillip Adams from The Australian, I thought I would post something else from the same Rupert Murdoch-own paper I normally wouldn't, just to balance things up. This is not, let me hasten to add, to stir up trouble, but to make sure people realise that the Mr Adams is not representative of the Murdoch press.
Heh.

I will high-light the bit I really like.

[indent] Hope in heretical voices
At last, moderate Muslims are speaking out against the backward Islamic world, says Janet Albrechtsen
March 22, 2006


SELF-ASSESSMENT is a tricky business. At a personal level, too much of the stuff has you moaning on a psychiatrist's leather couch for years with no real benefit. Likewise, at a national level, or a cultural level, it can soon enough turn into unhelpful self-loathing. But get the balance right and it gives rise to an intellectual form of creative destruction and an important driver of progress. In the Arab world, self-assessment is a rare thing indeed. Which is why, when it does happen, it's downright explosive.

Enter Wafa Sultan on Al-Jazeera television, of all places, who recently delivered a provocative and brave self-critique of Muslims. Sultan's interview, just over a month ago, may not have made it into our media (notwithstanding The Australian's Cut & Paste, March 10), but Al-Jazeera beamed it into millions of Arab homes. Thanks to the internet, it has been replayed in a million more homes across the globe. Now this once unknown Syrian-born psychiatrist is surely topping the fatwa charts.

Sultan criticised the Muslim world for its backwardness, for shunning knowledge and progress, and for embracing terrorism. She said it was time for Muslims to stop the self-pity and to stop blaming others as justification for Muslim violence directed at the West.
I agree with that. Too often when some calamity befalls us, we blindly blame others - Bush being the easiest possible target. The most insipid example I can think of is when some bozo blamed America for the Dutch Cartoons.

The blame, she said, lay squarely at the foot of Islamic clerics who encouraged followers to reject progress and instead resort to violence.
I've not seen the interview, but if she implies that all Muslim clerics have such attidudes, it's very detrimental to her credibility.

The televised interview, a debate between Sultan and Egyptian religious scholar Ibrahim Al-Khouli, was a personification of the problem at hand. Sultan said she was no longer a Muslim, only to be denounced by the academic as a heretic: "There is no point in rebuking you, since you have blasphemed against Islam, the prophet and the Koran."
I don't agree with that logic. But then, I don't agree with calling Sultan a 'moderate Muslim'. By that logic, a vegetarian who decides to eat meat is a 'moderate vegetarian'.

Ignoring Sultan on the grounds that she is a heretic explains why darkness has descended on large slabs of the Muslim world. In an interview with The New York Times, she said: "Our people are hostages to our own belief and teachings." And only knowledge can release them from this backward thinking, as it released her.
And, what? Place one in another prison? She fails to realize that society itself imposes limitations on one's freedoms, it's just a matter of degree.

The Muslim world's knowledge deficit has been canvassed before. At a 2002 scientific conference Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf described the Islamic world as "the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most unenlightened, the most deprived and the weakest of all the human race".
Before taking a shot of brandy.

:p

Then came the groundbreaking Arab Human Development Report which, among other things, revealed that in the 1000 years since the reign of caliph Mamoun, Arabs had translated as many books as Spain translated in a single year.
What are 'Arabs' for these purposes?

But few episodes of Muslim self-assessment have been as confronting as Sultan's interview where she pointed to the obvious links between ignorance, on the one hand, and intolerance and violence, on the other. To paraphrase Sultan's remarks is to dilute their force. It's worth watching the interview at www.memritv.org, but here is what she said: "The Muslims have turned three Buddha statues into rubble. We have not seen a single Buddhist burn down a mosque, kill a Muslim or burn down an embassy. Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind before they demand that humankind respect them."
True. I agree that certain Muslims are at fault. I disagree that Islam itself is the problem.

Sultan told The New York Times that she decided to leave Syria after members of the Muslim Brotherhood gunned down her professor in her university classroom, shouting, "God is great!"
What the?

She is writing a book that she says will "turn the Islamic world upside down ... I am questioning every single teaching of our holy book."
And it'll probably sell like wildfire because nothing sells like taking a dump on that which large groups of people hold sacred.

Unfortunately, there are few examples of this kind of Muslim self-examination. Instead, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Islamic fundamentalists want to change Western culture to fit their own: the orchestrated attacks against free speech arising from the Danish cartoons;
Oh do be quiet, Janet Albrechtsen. Imagine how different matters would be if the cartoons had depicted a Jewish stereotype, as in Nazi Germany. They would be rightly hated and considered offensive.

I am not excusing the actions of rioters. They're just as much to blame for taking the bait.

a British survey that suggests one in four British Muslims want sharia law imposed in parts of Britain dominated by Muslims;
Lies, damn lies, and statistics? ;)

fatwas placed on writers such as Salman Rushdie;
Placed by some Ayatollah, a Shia leader, who represents a minority in Islam.

the intimidation of some and slaying of others in the West who question Islamic culture.
Specifically?

The problems canvassed by Sultan are, with increasing speed, seeping into the West. Writing in The Wall Street Journal, one Muslim immigrant to Sweden recently described why she had decided to pack up her family and leave her Swedish suburb of Tensta. In short, because of the influence of Islamic fundamentalists.

"I'm tired of being expected to speak badly of Christians and Jews just because I'm Muslim. I'm tired of the hate preachers.
I'm tired of hate preachers too. And no one is asking her to speak badly of Christians and Jews because she's Muslim - and if they are, it goes against Islamic teaching.

I'm tired of seeing women condemned for the way they dress ... I never imagined that in the new millennium, and in Sweden of all places, my five-year-old son would have to defend and explain in his day-care centre why his mother doesn't wear a head scarf," Nalin Pekgul said.
Let me get this straight - she chooses to follow a religion, she chooses not to follow all of its teachings, her child goes through some sort of inquisition from his pre-school playmates, and all of a sudden it's the religion's fault? 'Gosh darn it! I've only got a crappy menial job, and all the kids make fun of my kid's cheap clothes! Damn my employer!'

I agree that self-criticism of certain Muslims is needed. I agree that there is a marked tendency to ignore criticisms rather than dealing with them. I still think the religion itself is perfect - it's just the followers who have a capacity to screw it up.
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HeiGou
03-22-2006, 10:21 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
I don't agree with that logic. But then, I don't agree with calling Sultan a 'moderate Muslim'. By that logic, a vegetarian who decides to eat meat is a 'moderate vegetarian'.
I agree. Clearly there is no such group as moderate Muslims. You either believe or you do not. It is not like Christianity where there is a middle ground of people who think the teaching is good, but all that Incarnation stuff is weird, or Jews who do not practice but are happy to be Jewish. And in this case she is clearly an atheist. So she is a former Muslim perhaps.

Before taking a shot of brandy.
No doubt. And yet he is on to something. The Muslims are rapidly becoming the poorest part of the world as India and China leave the Third World behind.

What are 'Arabs' for these purposes?
I think she mis-quoted that UNESCO document, but it was all the Arab speakers put together.

What the?
She claims that she was a student at the time the Muslim Brotherhood (I assume) tried to overthrow the Asad regime - and they shot her Professor because he, too, was an Alawi.

And it'll probably sell like wildfire because nothing sells like taking a dump on that which large groups of people hold sacred.
In the present climate I would think any book by a former Muslim that blamed all the problems in the world on Islam would sell well. Except she is never going to be able to go out in public again. It takes courage to sit openly on al-Jazeera and say what she said much less admit to being a secularist.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics? ;)
You mean it is more than a quarter!

Let me get this straight - she chooses to follow a religion, she chooses not to follow all of its teachings, her child goes through some sort of inquisition from his pre-school playmates, and all of a sudden it's the religion's fault? 'Gosh darn it! I've only got a crappy menial job, and all the kids make fun of my kid's cheap clothes! Damn my employer!'
No I think she is saying she wanted to flee the Middle East for somewhere where she could pick and choose among her religion's teachings and it is a surprise the Swedes are allowing Muslims to encroach on that secular society. I take that as a criticism of the Swedish government.

I agree that self-criticism of certain Muslims is needed. I agree that there is a marked tendency to ignore criticisms rather than dealing with them. I still think the religion itself is perfect - it's just the followers who have a capacity to screw it up.
I would especially agree with that first bit - but then not only would I in the normal course of events but it costs me nothing to do so. I would not argue with you over the second bit.
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HeiGou
03-22-2006, 10:25 AM
Originally Posted by amani
so whos civilised and whos not

i dont call wearing next to nothing clothes civilised-thats backward too. the poor who had no clothes did the same in the old ages. i dont call issues like sex out of wedlock, homosexuality and things like that civilised..all these things are documented historically
of course this is not the whole west but nor is it fair she says things like
Well you are entitled to your view of civlisation. I find clothing in the West a little too much and frankly strange, but I still think it is not civilised to jeer and hoot at a woman as she walks down the street because you can see a vague outline of hips, if that.

typical of these people...write a book anti islam-make money...easy fame woohoo...and by questioning the teachings of the Quran she is not a muslim and is cursed in this world and the hereafter
I am not sure that is fair - it takes courage to stand up especially these days when people who say things like that have to live under police protection. No doubt if she writes a book she will make lots of money. I think that is the attitude she is crticising too. But I agree it is a mistake to say she is in any way a moderate Muslim. I am interested as to why you think there are no moderate Muslims - only pious ones and secular ones.

oh yh- shes not a muslim-shes says so in her programme- i remember her now. so whys she attacking someone elses religion? would she like it if someone attacked her? only she is extremely ignorant to be attacking the Quran because that is the word of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala
I don't think she was attacking his religion so much as the attitudes that his interpretation of his religion have produced. Someone did attack her. You have too. Both you and the good Doctor have said she is not a Muslim and is doomed.
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DaSangarTalib
03-22-2006, 10:28 AM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Since Fight&Die saw fit to publish an article by Phillip Adams from The Australian,]
whats the problem with you guys why u keep mentioning me?, am i that much of a celebrity round here? :? and i'd like it if u complete my username next time; "Fight&Die" is no good
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HeiGou
03-22-2006, 10:36 AM
Originally Posted by Fight&Die4Allah
whats the problem with you guys why u keep mentioning me?, am i that much of a celebrity round here? :? and i'd like it if u complete my username next time; "Fight&Die" is no good
Well you're more than a celevritym you are a legend! Even in threads you do not start we all can't help thinking about you (in an entirely positive way of course). Myself I am President of the Fight&Die4Allah fan club. In fact we are starting to verge on cyber-stalking. It is a little long to type out all the time - would F&D4A do?
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-22-2006, 10:39 AM
Lol^^... I don't think he likes people mentioning him behind his back.:)
And bro... why does it say ur offline? That's lying.;D
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DaSangarTalib
03-22-2006, 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
Lol^^... I don't think he likes people mentioning him behind his back.:)
And bro... why does it say ur offline? That's lying.;D
LOL i was offline thats why, i had to go out and sort businees out :okay: and you right there i dont like ppl mentioning my name behind my back... :)
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DaSangarTalib
03-22-2006, 12:22 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Well you're more than a celevritym you are a legend! Even in threads you do not start we all can't help thinking about you (in an entirely positive way of course). Myself I am President of the Fight&Die4Allah fan club. In fact we are starting to verge on cyber-stalking. It is a little long to type out all the time - would F&D4A do?
lol WOAH!! easy with the compliments there....i didnt know there was a fan club :? F&D4A will do yea
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-22-2006, 12:24 PM
but it says you're offline now:giggling:
And i'm a member of the fan club too;D
:w:
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DaSangarTalib
03-22-2006, 12:27 PM
thats coz im invisible :smile:

so when did this fan club start and how come i didnt have a clue about it :confused:
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S_87
03-22-2006, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou

I am not sure that is fair - it takes courage to stand up especially these days when people who say things like that have to live under police protection. No doubt if she writes a book she will make lots of money. I think that is the attitude she is crticising too. But I agree it is a mistake to say she is in any way a moderate Muslim. I am interested as to why you think there are no moderate Muslims - only pious ones and secular ones.
well before i answer this question, what do you classify a moderate muslim? just in case we have different ideas?

I don't think she was attacking his religion so much as the attitudes that his interpretation of his religion have produced. Someone did attack her. You have too. Both you and the good Doctor have said she is not a Muslim and is doomed.
she herself said shes not a muslim....
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HeiGou
03-22-2006, 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by amani
well before i answer this question, what do you classify a moderate muslim? just in case we have different ideas?

she herself said shes not a muslim....
I think that a moderate Muslim is the Muslim equivalent of a Sunday Christian. A Friday Muslim if you like. Someone who does not take their religion too seriously and thinks it needs to be updated with the time and kept modern. Or more accurately thinks that a Western and/or Modern influence would be a good thing. Perhaps someone who is happy with being a Muslim but doesn't think about it very much?

But as I said, I don't think they really exist. Muslims seem to me to be either Observant (to varying degrees) or Secular if not atheist. There does not seem to be a big group in between.

This woman is clearly not a moderate Muslim but a secularist.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-22-2006, 12:51 PM
the fan club was offically started by Hei Gou today, but existed in the hearts of islam-truth and myself long ago.:D
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S_87
03-22-2006, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
I think that a moderate Muslim is the Muslim equivalent of a Sunday Christian. A Friday Muslim if you like. Someone who does not take their religion too seriously and thinks it needs to be updated with the time and kept modern. Or more accurately thinks that a Western and/or Modern influence would be a good thing. Perhaps someone who is happy with being a Muslim but doesn't think about it very much?

But as I said, I don't think they really exist. Muslims seem to me to be either Observant (to varying degrees) or Secular if not atheist. There does not seem to be a big group in between.

This woman is clearly not a moderate Muslim but a secularist.
nope being a friday muslim doesnt work
islam is a whole way of life not left only for the holy day..but im sure you know this already :thumbs_up

modernity is not always bad...nor is western. it again depends what you mean. if you mean western values *feedom* etc then thats a total different matter
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HeiGou
03-22-2006, 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by amani
nope being a friday muslim doesnt work
islam is a whole way of life not left only for the holy day..but im sure you know this already :thumbs_up
Well yes, but the vast majority of Muslims, from what I can see, do seem happy enough without living the entire way of life. After all it is the way that the vast majority of Muslims have lived for the last 1400 years. It is theoretically inane and unjustifiable, but it is what people do.

modernity is not always bad...nor is western. it again depends what you mean. if you mean western values *feedom* etc then thats a total different matter
Freedom? Hmm. Surely if Islam has said something on an issue there is no question of any modernity or Western values?
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S_87
03-22-2006, 02:53 PM
again would would you classify as modernity?

theres no modern islam

but there is modernity in the sense of technology society etc.

so things like this does go well with islam. take the internet for example....electricity. isnt this *modern* tech..this is what i mean...el
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hamzaa
03-22-2006, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Well you're more than a celevritym you are a legend! Even in threads you do not start we all can't help thinking about you (in an entirely positive way of course). Myself I am President of the Fight&Die4Allah fan club. In fact we are starting to verge on cyber-stalking. It is a little long to type out all the time - would F&D4A do?
peace,

now your taking the piss....:)
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HeiGou
03-22-2006, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by amani
again would would you classify as modernity?

theres no modern islam

but there is modernity in the sense of technology society etc.

so things like this does go well with islam. take the internet for example....electricity. isnt this *modern* tech..this is what i mean...el
Well I agree with that. But there are definite modern schools of thought too. Take kingship. Eurpean thought has rejected monarchy in favor of Republics and so the only places that remain Monarchies are those that have not had major political change recently. If they did, the monarchy would surely be abolished. And this goes back to 1789 in the West, although it has only been a strong trend since 1919. It is not surprising that in recent times Muslims have also found that monarchy is un-Islamic and so there has been a strong trend towards "Islamic Republicanism". Now maybe the two don't have any thing whatsoever to do with each other. Maybe it is the force of the modern world that works on all societies individually. But can you tell me any Muslim between the death of Ali and, say, 1800 who thought that monarchy was not Islamic?
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DaSangarTalib
03-22-2006, 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by hamzaa
peace,

now your taking the piss....:)
lol

:)
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Knut Hamsun
03-23-2006, 03:52 AM
Moderate Muslims Speaking Out


Who? Where? :)
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Allandaros
03-23-2006, 07:29 AM
Originally Posted by amani
and by questioning the teachings of the Quran she is not a muslim and is cursed in this world and the hereafter
Hmm. Honest question here, not intended to be flamebait.

Can you elaborate as to how you see that to be the case? I would think that critically thinking about what is stated by Allah (SWT) would be a desired action, rather than haraam. God has given us minds to think and to reason with. Should we not use them to consider what we are told, and why it is so?

Please note, I'm interpreting "questioning" as "re-considering what is meant by X", rather than "doubting" or "rejecting." To clarify, I'm seeing the original statements by Sultan as an intention to go over the Holy Quran and consider its statements without the lens of traditional thought, as it were. If my interpretation is in error, and Sultan's statements were more along the lines of "Let's ignore what is said in the Quran", then clearly that's wrong.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-23-2006, 10:12 AM
Originally Posted by Knut Hamsun

Who? Where? :)
You're so eloquent.
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Bittersteel
03-23-2006, 10:30 AM
look uh ...I feel sorry for her.I just don't take her seriously and her allegations.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-23-2006, 10:34 AM
Originally Posted by Abrar
look uh ...I feel sorry for her.I just don't take her seriously and her allegations.
Are you talking to me?:?
Reply

mizan_aliashraf
03-23-2006, 11:31 AM
Peace to those who follow righteous guidance
Like i have said before on other threads, you're either a muslim or a kafir. There's NO MIDDLE GROUND. There is no such thing as a moderate muslim or an extremist muslim. Given the choice, i would rather be classed as an extremist. For i see the 'moderates' as un-practising hypocrites. But thats just me. Maybe its the environment i was educated in, but thats another issue. i dont care if people call be an extremist, because i dont have anything to prove to anyone
Peace
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-23-2006, 11:33 AM
Originally Posted by mizan_aliashraf
Peace to those who follow righteous guidance
Like i have said before on other threads, you're either a muslim or a kafir. There's NO MIDDLE GROUND. There is no such thing as a moderate muslim or an extremist muslim. Given the choice, i would rather be classed as an extremist. For i see the 'moderates' as un-practising hypocrites. But thats just me. Maybe its the environment i was educated in, but thats another issue. i dont care if people call be an extremist, because i dont have anything to prove to anyone
Peace
:sl:
Exactly. Agree with you 100% there bro.
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MetSudaisTwice
03-23-2006, 11:34 AM
salam
mashallah bro mizan well said and true
wasalam
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HeiGou
03-23-2006, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by mizan_aliashraf
Like i have said before on other threads, you're either a muslim or a kafir. There's NO MIDDLE GROUND. There is no such thing as a moderate muslim or an extremist muslim. Given the choice, i would rather be classed as an extremist. For i see the 'moderates' as un-practising hypocrites. But thats just me. Maybe its the environment i was educated in, but thats another issue. i dont care if people call be an extremist, because i dont have anything to prove to anyone
Surely there is another category too - the extremists who have gone so far in their extremism they are not part of the community any more. The Kharijis would not accept the authority of Ali or Muawiya. Did they remain Muslims? Surely you can accept that some Muslims, and I shall name no names for fear of the thread being closed, can adopt such an odd interpretation of Islam they are not members of the community anymore without actually committing shirk?

But I agree there seems to be no middle ground.
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HeiGou
03-23-2006, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by Abrar
look uh ...I feel sorry for her.I just don't take her seriously and her allegations.
By all means don't take her seriously, but how can you not take even one of her allegations seriously? You reject everything she said? Why?
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ubaid
03-23-2006, 05:43 PM
i have the video clip to this if anyone is interested in watching, i am not sure if i will be allowed to post it though
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mizan_aliashraf
03-24-2006, 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Surely there is another category too - the extremists who have gone so far in their extremism they are not part of the community any more. The Kharijis would not accept the authority of Ali or Muawiya. Did they remain Muslims? Surely you can accept that some Muslims, and I shall name no names for fear of the thread being closed, can adopt such an odd interpretation of Islam they are not members of the community anymore without actually committing shirk?

But I agree there seems to be no middle ground.

Peace
I do agree with you there. There are muslims who have taken some aspects of islam to the extremes, but at the end of the day they are still our brothers and sisters in faith so we should not go around labelling them as fanatics/extremists/terrorists but instead pray for their guidance. I am saying this as a muslim who has also fallen into this category. i cannot walk down the street without people giving me a second look. I seem to attract too much attention in central london, and for all the wrong reasons. I dont know, maybe its me. Maybe i havent embraced the 21st century as i should have, but who cares?
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renak
03-24-2006, 10:14 AM
I think it's possible to be a moderate muslim, moderate christian, or moderate anything else you wish to be. Everyone interprets their religion differently. Just because some people choose to interpret their religion different than the majority, does not mean they are not a member of a particular faith.
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mizan_aliashraf
03-24-2006, 10:19 AM
Originally Posted by renak
I think it's possible to be a moderate muslim, moderate christian, or moderate anything else you wish to be. Everyone interprets their religion differently. Just because some people choose to interpret their religion different than the majority, does not mean they are not a member of a particular faith.

Its not a question of how you interpret your religion. Being a moderate normally indicates that you just the follow the basic principles of a concept be it a religion or anything for that matter. In islam its not enough to be a part-time muslim. You either are in or out. Its that simple.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-24-2006, 10:22 AM
true^
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renak
03-24-2006, 10:25 AM
Originally Posted by mizan_aliashraf
Its not a question of how you interpret your religion. Being a moderate normally indicates that you just the follow the basic principles of a concept be it a religion or anything for that matter. In islam its not enough to be a part-time muslim. You either are in or out. Its that simple.
Either in or out? If that were the case, you wouldn't have different Islamic sects.
Reply

Malsidabym
03-24-2006, 10:29 AM
Originally Posted by mizan_aliashraf
Peace to those who follow righteous guidance
Like i have said before on other threads, you're either a muslim or a kafir. There's NO MIDDLE GROUND. There is no such thing as a moderate muslim or an extremist muslim. Given the choice, i would rather be classed as an extremist. For i see the 'moderates' as un-practising hypocrites. But thats just me. Maybe its the environment i was educated in, but thats another issue. i dont care if people call be an extremist, because i dont have anything to prove to anyone
Peace
It is interesting the use of this word "kafir", I take it to mean "infidel" or "nonbeliever in my faith". This is a type of word that is used in reference from a persons own perspective. From a christians point of view, you would be the kafir.
Christians commonly use the word infidel as well. Again, it would be a matter of one's own perspective.
Peace.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-24-2006, 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by renak
Either in or out? If that were the case, you wouldn't have different Islamic sects.
No... that isn't what he means.:sister:
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mizan_aliashraf
03-24-2006, 10:35 AM
Salam
The last thing i want to do is divide the muslims any more than they are already divided, but we should consider ourselves as muslims full stop. Not 'moderates' or 'extremists'. I definitely know what class i would into if it was somebody else classing people
Wassalam
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HeiGou
03-24-2006, 10:48 AM
Originally Posted by mizan_aliashraf
Like i have said before on other threads, you're either a muslim or a kafir. There's NO MIDDLE GROUND. There is no such thing as a moderate muslim or an extremist muslim. Given the choice, i would rather be classed as an extremist. For i see the 'moderates' as un-practising hypocrites. But thats just me. Maybe its the environment i was educated in, but thats another issue. i dont care if people call be an extremist, because i dont have anything to prove to anyone
Well to carry on a little further, surely you can accept that there is a limited diversity of opinion in the Muslim community that is acceptable? I mean, even in the days of the Rashiddun the Muslims could not agree on who should be Caliph. But that didn't, surely?, mean they ceased to be Muslims just because they supported Ali or Muawiya or someone else? Take the issue that was raised the other day of whether you need your parents' permission to marry. Three schools of Sunni law say you do, one says you do not. Surely all parties are still Muslims? Even within schools, traditionally, you had a range of opinions about what was acceptable or not?

The question is, I would have thought, how far that diversity goes and more importantly, the motivation behind it - if someone comes up with a different opinion, even a very different opinion, based on as genuine attempt to follow God's law, in my opinion for however little it counts, they are better Muslims than someone who comes up with a mildly different opinion based on an effort to please Westerners. Take Ghazali who compared marriage to slavery. Was he a Muslim? I think so. Take some Western-based Muslim scholars who say that the Quran does not allow wife to be beaten? Well the problem is judging intent but I have my own views and luckily I am not a Muslim so I can say that.
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HeiGou
03-24-2006, 10:53 AM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
true^
Really? What defines this all-or-nothing approach? Does a Muslim cease to be a Muslim because, say, he thinks that the economic benefits from taking very low rates of interest create enough prosperity that the appropriate Islamic response is to allow it?
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-24-2006, 10:56 AM
Hei Gou... you haven't answered me after that very funny message:p
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mizan_aliashraf
03-24-2006, 10:56 AM
Peace
Interest is FORBIDDEN. there is no way around it. Dont listen to these so-called 'shari'ah compliant' banks. They all give and take interest.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-24-2006, 10:57 AM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Really? What defines this all-or-nothing approach? Does a Muslim cease to be a Muslim because, say, he thinks that the economic benefits from taking very low rates of interest create enough prosperity that the appropriate Islamic response is to allow it?
No, but we don't like the use of 'moderate' or 'extremist'.... we are only Muslims!
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mizan_aliashraf
03-24-2006, 10:57 AM
Salam
Takbeer! just the answer i was looking for
Jazakillah Khayr
Wassalam
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-24-2006, 11:01 AM
wa iyakkum:sister:
:w:
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HeiGou
03-24-2006, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
No, but we don't like the use of 'moderate' or 'extremist'.... we are only Muslims!
But that in itself is an ideological position. You are making several implicit claims in that statement that may or may not stand up to independent scrutiny. Now someone like me who does not come from the same standpoint as you can see there are differences within and between the Muslim communities. You may not want to distinguish between Muslims, but I need to I am afraid.

Not that the category "Moderate Muslim" looks very large or particularly useful.
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Falafel Eater
03-24-2006, 01:10 PM
Every Muslim who follows the Quran and the Sunnah with the understanding of the first 3 generation of Muslims is moderate Muslim.

Islam is the middle way, extremism has no place in it.
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