/* */

PDA

View Full Version : NO means NO



irsha
03-30-2006, 02:15 PM
I am appalled that some people think that a woman must prove her modesty or that she resisted a rape as much as she could before being found at no fault for beibg raped.,

No means NO!!! I dont care if a peron walked naked down the street, she has a right to say NO to sex, and it is no esxcse for a man to take what he wants against her will.
I am appallled at what was said on an Islamic website about this, read the relevant quotes in red.

From "islam on line"

Name of Counsellor Kamal Badr
Answer
Dear sister, thanks for your question.

As the question mostly revolves around raped women, I’d confine my answer to that point, without delving into the issue of punishing the rapist, on which there is no controversy that if it’s proven, beyond reasonable doubt, that he’s guilty of the crime, he will serve the punishment.

But I’d like to make it clear that this crime can be proved either by confession or testimony or even through any modern means, thanks for the great revolution that has taken place in the field of science. This has made it easier for criminal experts to lay their hands on clear evidence that paves way for justice to run its course.

So what I’m trying to say is that, contrary to what some Westerners claim, the issue is not just “bring four witnesses or set the accused free”. Shari`ah is not a legal system that keeps itself away from realities of life. Rather, it’s practical in the sense that its mechanism of justice operates in a quite flexible way that makes all its precepts and rulings applicable at all time. Anyway, as I’ve said, I won’t go into details on that now.

Moving to your question. Yes, sister, raped women are not punished in Islam. What punishment?! This is like saying that a person robbed of his property should be punished. Actually, this notion belongs to places where the law of the jungle is in operation.

It’s a fact that, to be absolved from guilt, the raped woman must have shown some sort of good conduct, in the sense that what befell her must be something beyond her control. This is where Islam excels. In dealing with a certain issue or addressing a certain problem, it brings forth a comprehensive panacea that uproots the problem and eliminates its causes. Rather than stipulating a temporary measure that will act as sedatives, Islam gets down to the root of the problem itself with the aim of uprooting entirely. It sets noble codes of conduct that should prevail in the society; it addresses women to maintain their modesty, as not to open the door for evils: “… be not too complacent of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak ye a speech (that is) just.”

Surah 33 Verse 32

The above verse, despite addressing the wives of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, actually, in an implicit way, calls upon Muslim women in general to preserve their dignity and modesty, just to save themselves from any harassment.

This injunction sounds more explicit in the following verse:


“O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

Surah 33 Verse 59

This is Islam! As we have reiterated before, it does not hunt for crimes just to punish; rather, it works towards the means of blocking the avenues of crimes. Even when it punishes, it doesn’t punish blindly; rather, it strikes the guilty hand.

So, for a rape victim to be absolved from guilt, she must not be the one that opens her house for robbery and her dignity for deflowering. If, after trying her best to resist the attack, she gets overcome by the assailants, she is totally absolved from punishment.

Muslim scholars are unanimous on this. They maintain that any woman, who, despite doing her utmost to resist these thugs and their ilk, is raped, is not guilty of any sin. This is since the situation is beyond her control, and anyone who is forced to do something is not guilty of sin. This is even in the case of disbelief, which is worse than zina (sex out of marriage), as Allah says:
“… except him who is forced thereto and whose heart is at rest with faith…” .”

Surah16 Verse 106

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said: “Allah has forgiven for my Ummah for their mistakes, what they forget and what they are forced to do.”

In showing reaction to this heinous crime, Islam takes into consideration the terrible effects it has on its victims. Most rape victims have their self-esteem diminished after an assault or abuse, driving them to be hunted by frequent shame, humiliation and loss of control.

This situation may even exacerbate to the point of making rape victims find it difficult to be intimate with others. That’s why Islam lays down certain strategies, which all in all, aim at soothing the rape victim, opening for her new channels of hope and survival.

That’s why Islam makes it clear that any Muslim woman who falls prey to a rapist will be rewarded for bearing this calamity with patience, if she seeks Allah’s, reward for the harm that has befallen her. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, says: “No stress or exhaustion befalls the Muslim, nor worry or distress, even a thorn which pricks him, but Allah will forgive his sins because of that.”

The society also has a role to play in rehabilitating the rape victim. Instead of deserting her or considering her a person non grata in the society, for the crime she has no hand in, Islam calls upon the society to rush to assist her in modifying and improving her life. We should show her the way out the pain of abuse.

Thus, many Muslim scholars, led by Sheikh Al-Qaradawi, have maintained that young Muslim men should hasten to marry women who fall as rape victims, so as to reduce their suffering and console them, to compensate them for the loss of the most precious thing that they possess. This reflects mutual love, rapport and altruism that prevail in the Muslim society.

This is, in brief, how Islam caters for raped women.

As for the site you referred to, I’ve checked it and I see that you don’t have to bother yourself with such things. What every Muslim should busy himself or herself with, is how to get acquainted with the teachings of Islam, and how to acquire that from a proper source.

May Allah help us!
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
IbnAbdulHakim
03-30-2006, 02:19 PM
dont go trusting random internet sites, they mislead people and show a false islam.

peace
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-30-2006, 02:33 PM
Yeah but if someone trashes your business after you left the door open all night, wouldn't you be blamed a little bit for negligence? The laws in shari'ah for modesty are there for a reason, for protection. And plus I think the punishment for rape should be severer in the west, much more severe.
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
03-30-2006, 02:34 PM
No woman has the right to be raped even if she is naked! That is a fact! But women can reduce been raped. Don’t you think? The society that we live in is not free from men who behave like animals, whom do not know the meaning of NO!
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Ghazi
03-30-2006, 02:38 PM
Salaam

If a women runs around naked, then she's putting her self at risk and she has to bare some responsabilty for whatever happens
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
03-30-2006, 02:41 PM
On a serious note

".....The laws of Islam came to protect women's honour and modesty. Islam forbids women to wear clothes that are not modest and to travel without a mahram; it forbids a woman to shake hands with a non-mahram man. Islam encourages young men and women to marry early, and many other rulings which close the door to rape. Hence it comes as no surprise when we hear or read that most of these crimes occur in permissive societies which are looked up to by some Muslims as examples of civilization and refinement! In America – for example – International Amnesty stated in a 2004 report entitled “Stop Violence Against Women” that every 90 seconds a woman was raped during that year. What kind of life are these people living? What refinement and civilization do they want the Muslim women to take part in?...." islam-Q&A
Reply

Muezzin
03-30-2006, 02:44 PM
Yes, no does mean no. Dressing 'modestly' does help, like a precaution.

It's like the Green Cross Code - if you look both ways before crossing, you will be less likely to be run over. But no one is going to blame you if you look (or don't look for that matter) and are hit by a drunk driver.
Reply

HeiGou
03-30-2006, 02:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Mu'minah
Hence it comes as no surprise when we hear or read that most of these crimes occur in permissive societies which are looked up to by some Muslims as examples of civilization and refinement! In America – for example – International Amnesty stated in a 2004 report entitled “Stop Violence Against Women” that every 90 seconds a woman was raped during that year. What kind of life are these people living? What refinement and civilization do they want the Muslim women to take part in?...." islam-Q&A
And yet, despite the supposed epidemic of rape in the West, women go out at night and walk the streets in very little clothing very late at night. Often after consuming too much alcohol. Therefore, I think it is safe to conclude, the streets are extremely safe and rape is, in fact, rather rare. Muslimas on the other hand are usually restricted even more than Islamic law says they ought to be. They are often not allowed out at all - look at Saudi Arabia. They usually wear more restrictive clothing than Islamic law seems to require in a strict sense. Therefore, I think, it is safe to conclude that the streets are extremely dangerous and rape must be, actually, rather common and would be even more common if these women were not protected so strongly.
Reply

Soldier2000
03-30-2006, 02:52 PM
No means NO!!! I
I have read some ridiculous stuff on this forum, but that just tops the list- how the hell do you know "no means no"- are you a mind reader?
How do you know whats going through their head!
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
03-30-2006, 02:57 PM
What a contrast! “…In America – for example – International Amnesty stated in a 2004 report entitled “Stop Violence Against Women” that every 90 seconds a woman was raped during that year…”

Ah! How save your streets are!

You like to pick up on Saudi Arabia don’t you? Saudi Arabia may be a Muslim country but they certainly do not represent Islam. What some of the individual’s do there is does not represent Islam e.g not letting women drive car etc

Their streets are very save compared to the streets of the West. They may not be perfect but the crime of rap is way less! Why is it less? It doesn’t necessarily have to do with the way women dress but the fact that it’s Islamic Law is harsh .
Reply

Malsidabym
03-30-2006, 03:00 PM
If, after trying her best to resist the attack, she gets overcome by the assailants, she is totally absolved from punishment.
The problem that I see with this statement is that many women might not resist as best they can out of fear. If you happen to know a rape victim that is open to talking about it try asking, many have claimed that they could not fight back because of fear of violence. Often this fear comes from the fact that the assailant(s) have threatened violence.

format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
And plus I think the punishment for rape should be severer in the west, much more severe.
Why do you think this Mu'MiNaH?
Reply

HeiGou
03-30-2006, 03:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Mu'minah
What a contrast! “…In America – for example – International Amnesty stated in a 2004 report entitled “Stop Violence Against Women” that every 90 seconds a woman was raped during that year…”

Ah! How save your streets are!
How many streets are there in America? How many women? One every ninty seconds sounds a lot but America is a big country. Also look at who the rapists are most likely to be - acquaintances in many cases. Nothing to do with the streets at all. What is amazing about the West is how safe it is if you think about it.

You like to pick up on Saudi Arabia don’t you? Saudi Arabia may be a Muslim country but they certainly do not represent Islam. What some of the individual’s do there is does not represent Islam e.g not letting women drive car etc
They do not represent what you understand to be Islam. Do they enforce an Islamic dress code? Even if they were bad Muslims wouldn't that code protect women?

Their streets are very save compared to the streets of the West. They may not be perfect but the crime of rap is way less! Why is it less? It doesn’t necessarily have to do with the way women dress but the fact that it’s Islamic Law is harsh .
I am not convinced that is true. Someone around here said that there are gangs of young men who kidnap boys off the streets of Saudi Arabia. I was shocked to hear that because I did not expect it. How do you know what the crime is like in Saudi Arabia as they do not publish good figures?
Reply

HeiGou
03-30-2006, 03:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Soldier2000
I have read some ridiculous stuff on this forum, but that just tops the list- how the hell do you know "no means no"- are you a mind reader?
How do you know whats going through their head!
Let's say it is a reasonable assumption.

Besides, sex is one of those things you should assume has a default "no" value. Not until there is a clear and specific "yes" value should you proceed. Any confusion, even the slightest, ought to be taken as a "no".
Reply

Muezzin
03-30-2006, 03:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Soldier2000
I have read some ridiculous stuff on this forum, but that just tops the list- how the hell do you know "no means no"- are you a mind reader?
How do you know whats going through their head!
I see what you're saying, but it's a very dangerous attitude that gets a lot of men arrested. If she says no... it means no.

I might consider making a 'pfft. women' joke, but when people are imprisoned over a 'misunderstanding', it's suddenly not funny.
Reply

HeiGou
03-30-2006, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
I see what you're saying, but it's a very dangerous attitude that gets a lot of men arrested. If she says no... it means no.

I might consider making a 'pfft. women' joke, but when people are imprisoned over a 'misunderstanding', it's suddenly not funny.
I don't think being arrested is the problem. Bad as that is. When people are raped over a "misunderstanding" is a lot less funny.
Reply

Muezzin
03-30-2006, 03:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I don't think being arrested is the problem. Bad as that is. When people are raped over a "misunderstanding" is a lot less funny.
Very true. Misunderstanding and sex are just a rape trial waiting to happen.
Reply

Malsidabym
03-30-2006, 03:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
I see what you're saying, but it's a very dangerous attitude that gets a lot of men arrested. If she says no... it means no.

I might consider making a 'pfft. women' joke, but when people are imprisoned over a 'misunderstanding', it's suddenly not funny.
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Let's say it is a reasonable assumption.

Besides, sex is one of those things you should assume has a default "no" value. Not until there is a clear and specific "yes" value should you proceed. Any confusion, even the slightest, ought to be taken as a "no".
These two posts compliment each other. Even women that dress improperly do not have an open 'yes' to any pervert that comes along. 'No" should be the assumed answer. Men should be able to control thier primitive urges, what are we? Wild animals?
Reply

azim
03-30-2006, 03:11 PM
Salam.

Regarding giving Islam viewpoints- this is an issue of Fiqh and OPINIONS must not be given and passed off as an Islamic ruling. Only the views of scholars will suffice.

Regarding the issue of rapists, we must remember rapes and not all of the same type.

Some rapes occur at night in some dark alleyway, others at home in the women's bedroom. They can happen at nightclubs and they can happen at work. The reasons vary and so you cannot give a general rule regarding rape and expect it to be true in every situation.

The majority of rapes in this country (UK) happen to women who are clubbing. Again, the types differ. From 'date rape' drugs, to rapes while the women is unconcious or too drunk to give consent, to violent rapings which can end in murder even as far as intentional rapes for 'revenge' (it has happened quite often believe it or not).

How far is the women responsible? Is she even responsible at all? These issues must be discussed on a case by case issue. There is no general rule you can apply.

Islamically - we have to refer to the opinions of scholars, the hadith of the Prophet and words of Allah in the Quran. Outside of this, we are not at liberty to attribute blame to any women for 'asking for it'.
Reply

HeiGou
03-30-2006, 03:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malsidabym
Men should be able to control thier primitive urges, what are we? Wild animals?
I don't know about you, but are three-toed sloths wild animals?
Reply

Ghazi
03-30-2006, 03:12 PM
Salaam

should be able to control thier primitive urges, what are we? Wild animals?
This is the problem It comes down to a person morals a good muslim would probably have caught a glimpse then lowerd his gaza, in islam both females and males are told to do this, if only people would implament this in their lives.
Reply

azim
03-30-2006, 03:17 PM
Men should be able to control thier primitive urges, what are we? Wild animals?
I live in the UK, which is meant to be the 'binge drinking' capital of the World. I also happen to live in Cardiff, which happens to be the 'binge drinking' capital of the UK.

Sometimes, I have no choice but to walk through the town centre on a Friday or Saturday night. The amount of alchohol consumed completely diminishes what were once human beings to completely wild animals in every sense of the word.
Reply

HeiGou
03-30-2006, 03:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azim
The majority of rapes in this country (UK) happen to women who are clubbing. Again, the types differ. From 'date rape' drugs, to rapes while the women is unconcious or too drunk to give consent, to violent rapings which can end in murder even as far as intentional rapes for 'revenge' (it has happened quite often believe it or not).
It may be the case that most rapes happen to women out clubbing, although I would question that figure, but clubs are not where women are at most risk. The most likely perpetrator of rape is a woman's "partner" (32 percent) and the next on the list is "acquaintance" (22 percent). Current partners are responsible for 45 percent of all reported rapes. Strangers make up just 8 percent which is down from 12 percent in 1996 which in turn was down from 30 percent in 1985. I would like to think the numbers are going down but it is more likely the numbers of other rapes are going up.

The UK happens to be a very safe place for women despite what seems to me to be insanely stupid behaviour.
Reply

azim
03-30-2006, 03:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
It may be the case that most rapes happen to women out clubbing, although I would question that figure, but clubs are not where women are at most risk. The most likely perpetrator of rape is a woman's "partner" (32 percent) and the next on the list is "acquaintance" (22 percent). Current partners are responsible for 45 percent of all reported rapes. Strangers make up just 8 percent which is down from 12 percent in 1996 which in turn was down from 30 percent in 1985. I would like to think the numbers are going down but it is more likely the numbers of other rapes are going up.

The UK happens to be a very safe place for women despite what seems to me to be insanely stupid behaviour.
Perhaps the figures you have are in regard to convicted rapes. I took my statistic from figures published in the Guardian a few weeks (possibly month or so) back, I'll try to find it again as it was an interesting article.

I find it horrific to think that the most common rapist is the womens partner, I am assuming these cases are often linked with domestic abuse.

I have read recently that there are serious problems legally speaking in trying to convict women who are raped while clubbing or drunk. The only witnesses are the alleged rapist and victim and they are less than reliable witnesses due to their intoxicated state.
Reply

irsha
03-31-2006, 01:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Soldier2000
I have read some ridiculous stuff on this forum, but that just tops the list- how the hell do you know "no means no"- are you a mind reader?
How do you know whats going through their head!
WEll, Now I have seen the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen on any site I visit. How the hell do I know if no means no? Because I speak English (oooooh, I have never been so tempted to personally insult anyone here as right now) One does not have to be a mind reader to expect that when someone says NO, they mean NO, and to take any other course of action is called rape.
I sincerely hope you have never had sex with a woman who has said no, otherwise you are guilty of rape.

Oh, I could just see this in court
Judge - "did you ask this woman if you could have sex with her"?
You- "Yes"
Judge- "and what did she say"?
You- " she said no"
Judge- "But you went ahead anyway and had sex with her"?
You- "yes"
Judge "Why, when you know she said no?"
You- "well I couldn't see into her head, so I presumed she meant yes, because I am so hot looking and a real stud"
Judge-" In any civilised society, the words NO means NO, I find you guilty of rape"
Reply

irsha
03-31-2006, 01:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
dont go trusting random internet sites, they mislead people and show a false islam.

peace

Mr. Kamal Badr

Head of Fatwa English Section - IslamOnline.net

Former Head of Religious Department/editor/translator
ART Satellite Channel, Translation Department

Four years of experience as editor/columnist/proofreader in The Egyptian Gazette (1994-98)

Preparing thesis for M.A on "modes of reparation - comparative study between shri'a and international law"

Post graduate diploma on "Islamic legal politics" (al-siyasa al shari'a) 1993-96

LLB Faculty of Law and Shari'a, al-Azhar University, Cairo, Egypt (1987-1992)
Reply

Lush
03-31-2006, 01:51 AM
Ok,

Let's get some things straight here.

Civilized people agree that rape is, first and foremost, an issue of domination and humiliation, rather than some sort of insane desire for sex. Statistics prove this. Most women are raped by people they know.

Let's wrap our minds around that before we go around blaming victims for sexual violence.

As for the website in question, it should be petitioned, and Muslims ought to protest, just like everyone protested when this so-called sheikh in Australia publicly blamed women for rape.
Reply

Lush
03-31-2006, 01:53 AM
Mr. Kamal Badr
Wow, this guy has a degree?

I guess lots of idiots have degrees nowadays... Even Bush has got one. It's a shame, however, that his supposed "Islamic knowledge" should be dispensed among online communities.

Shame, shame, shame.

And shame on anyone who agrees with him.
Reply

irsha
03-31-2006, 01:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

If a women runs around naked, then she's putting her self at risk and she has to bare some responsabilty for whatever happens
Why, because men cannot control themeselves? There can never be an excuse for rape, the moment we let men have excuses for rape, is the moment we lose the right to call ourselves civilised.
So you blame the woman if she is naked? What aout a G string? what about a bikini?, how about mini skirt and midriff top? or maybe jeans and jumper? muslim clothing except for hijab? , muslim cothing with hijab but no veil? full muslim clothing with veil but walking on her own to the neighbours house?
Where do YOU draw the line on when a woman is not at fault?
Do you think women should be questioned as a criminal would, in a rape case, to see if she was at fault in being raped?
The whole Idea is sickening, women should not have to prove anything except that the man had sex with her against her will, end of story- It is NEVER a womans fault if a man forces himself onto her.
Reply

Lush
03-31-2006, 02:00 AM
Irsha,

I would suggest that you let islam-truth wallow in his own ignorance. There is a wealth of statistics out there that suggest that he is dead wrong in his beliefs, but, unfortunately, some people see what they want to see. For him, this is probably yet another excuse to slander "the evil West" and praise a patriarchal structure that makes it all too convenient for men like him to oppress those who are different.

I have wasted countless hours, arguing with countless people about this issue, but sometimes, one has to save oneself the trouble.

I always wonder if a man like that would change his mind if his mother, sister, daughter, or wife were raped, but then again, I would never wish anything like that on another person regardless of where they stand.

You are right that we are standing on a slippery slope of definitions, however. But look at his wording... "If a woman runs around naked..." He has no idea what he's talking about. And he won't understand. There's no point. Pick your battles.
Reply

Malsidabym
03-31-2006, 02:55 AM
Pick your battles.
This is wisdom.
Reply

Al-Mu'min
03-31-2006, 03:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
And yet, despite the supposed epidemic of rape in the West, women go out at night and walk the streets in very little clothing very late at night. Often after consuming too much alcohol. Therefore, I think it is safe to conclude, the streets are extremely safe and rape is, in fact, rather rare. Muslimas on the other hand are usually restricted even more than Islamic law says they ought to be. They are often not allowed out at all - look at Saudi Arabia. They usually wear more restrictive clothing than Islamic law seems to require in a strict sense. Therefore, I think, it is safe to conclude that the streets are extremely dangerous and rape must be, actually, rather common and would be even more common if these women were not protected so strongly.
Peace.
You are mistaken Mr. Cunfucious.
The wild wild west is far more dangerous than Islamic practicing countries. Not only in rape cases, but in every crime possible. Please view the other stats beside the rape crimes.

Rapes per capita:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_percap
Notice how the U.S is 9th on the list while Saudi Arabia is 65th which is the last on the list.

Rapes in general:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap
Here the U.S is 1st!! Saudia arabia is listed 52nd.

Rape Victims:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_vic
The U.S is 13th while the U.K is 6th. Saudi Arabia isn't even listed.

Total Crime Victims:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_tot_cri_vic

Total Crimes:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_tot_cri
U.S is first, U.K is third. Saudi Arabia doesn't even make the list of 61!!

Other Crime Categories:
http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/cri

I bet if you add up all the crime commited in Islamic practicing countries, it will not total, the combined crime commited in the U.S and the U.K. And you think the west is a safer place:heated:

Peace.
Reply

Lush
03-31-2006, 04:13 AM
Al-Mu'Min,

So-called Muslim nations usually have a great deal more stigma attached to rape.

It is estimated that the majority of rape victims in patriarchal societies do not come forward, because they are shamed. Sometimes, they are even killed.

Considering some of the so-called clerics out there, I'm not even surprised.

Statistics are moot for as long as a culture of shame exists.

Rape is a global problem.
Reply

HeiGou
03-31-2006, 07:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Mu'min
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
And yet, despite the supposed epidemic of rape in the West, women go out at night and walk the streets in very little clothing very late at night. Often after consuming too much alcohol. Therefore, I think it is safe to conclude, the streets are extremely safe and rape is, in fact, rather rare. Muslimas on the other hand are usually restricted even more than Islamic law says they ought to be. They are often not allowed out at all - look at Saudi Arabia. They usually wear more restrictive clothing than Islamic law seems to require in a strict sense. Therefore, I think, it is safe to conclude that the streets are extremely dangerous and rape must be, actually, rather common and would be even more common if these women were not protected so strongly.
The wild wild west is far more dangerous than Islamic practicing countries. Not only in rape cases, but in every crime possible. Please view the other stats beside the rape crimes.
I am not denying that Saudi Arabia and so on produce very low crime statistics. What I am saying is given that those statistics are useless, what are the indications of the real situation. And let me say it again - in the West women can and do go out late at night wearing very little often under the influence of alcohol, without serious consequence. Therefore the West must be safe. The Muslim countries are generally more restrictive than Islamic law demands. Therefore, whatever the government figures are, they must not be that safe.

Can we agree that many Muslim countries have all the predictors for a serious rape and crime problem - many young men, who have high unemployment rates, and who have grown up in cultures that stigmatise women who get raped, and where law enforcement for rape is next to non-existant?

Rapes per capita:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_percap

Notice how the U.S is 9th on the list while Saudi Arabia is 65th which is the last on the list.
Which shows that more people report rape in the US than in many places. I also note that the US criminalises spousal rape which is not a crime in Islamic law or in many other legal systems.

Rapes in general:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap
Here the U.S is 1st!! Saudia arabia is listed 52nd.
Which proves little except that it would be a waste of time to report rape in Saudi Arabia.

I bet if you add up all the crime commited in Islamic practicing countries, it will not total, the combined crime commited in the U.S and the U.K. And you think the west is a safer place:heated:
I bet if you added up all the crimes it would be by far and away. I am happy to accept that certain types of crimes are likely to be less common in many Muslim countries. But the problem is you are insisting on reported crimes when you ought to be looking at the bigger picture and in particular the problems reporting. If a country displays signs of crime avoidance that indicates what people think. My brother, for instance, does not lock up his car when he parks it. It has never been stolen. I wouldn't keep valuables in the open inside my home even if the door was locked. We are each voting with our possessions for who has the lowest crime rate.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-31-2006, 10:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malsidabym


Why do you think this Mu'MiNaH?
Because then sick men will think twice before letting their perverted desires take control of their senses:).
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-31-2006, 10:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
Why, because men cannot control themeselves? There can never be an excuse for rape, the moment we let men have excuses for rape, is the moment we lose the right to call ourselves civilised.
So you blame the woman if she is naked? What aout a G string? what about a bikini?, how about mini skirt and midriff top? or maybe jeans and jumper? muslim clothing except for hijab? , muslim cothing with hijab but no veil? full muslim clothing with veil but walking on her own to the neighbours house?
Where do YOU draw the line on when a woman is not at fault?
Do you think women should be questioned as a criminal would, in a rape case, to see if she was at fault in being raped?
The whole Idea is sickening, women should not have to prove anything except that the man had sex with her against her will, end of story- It is NEVER a womans fault if a man forces himself onto her.
True, but maybe she and the law could do more to protect herself. You have to realise that even if you are dressing for yourself, there are deranged and perverted men out there. And I think if the man didn't think the punishment was so light like it is in the west he would think twice before going on the prowl.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-31-2006, 10:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
The whole Idea is sickening, women should not have to prove anything except that the man had sex with her against her will, end of story- It is NEVER a womans fault if a man forces himself onto her.
NEVA A WOMANS FAULT?

if i put a big fat juicy burger in front of you while ur starving YOU TRY RESIST EATING IT! GO ON? TRY? IF U MANAGE TO DO IT, WIV ALL DUE RESPECT MENTION THE SAME THING AGAIN!!!! and this time i will shut up and accept exactly what u sAY.

Temptation is a nature, a nature every1 is well aware of. Some men are ofcourse weaker in controlling temptation. Women should understand this and do there part in helping "civilization" because it is noway civilised for women to walk around half naked expecting men to not lust after them. Not every men can be like muslims who lower there gazes so i find ur comments laughable!!!!!!!
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-31-2006, 10:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lush
Irsha,

I would suggest that you let islam-truth wallow in his own ignorance. .
Not once have i seen dear brother islam-truth say anything "false/ignorant/offensive". He has stated that which is true? If you do not agree wiv him you do not stick up for the moral values of certain human beings!

Peace
Reply

irsha
03-31-2006, 12:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
NEVA A WOMANS FAULT?

if i put a big fat juicy burger in front of you while ur starving YOU TRY RESIST EATING IT! GO ON? TRY? IF U MANAGE TO DO IT, WIV ALL DUE RESPECT MENTION THE SAME THING AGAIN!!!! and this time i will shut up and accept exactly what u sAY.

Temptation is a nature, a nature every1 is well aware of. Some men are ofcourse weaker in controlling temptation. Women should understand this and do there part in helping "civilization" because it is noway civilised for women to walk around half naked expecting men to not lust after them. Not every men can be like muslims who lower there gazes so i find ur comments laughable!!!!!!!
I cannot believe you would compare eating a hamburger to being raped? And, being a model, I have resisted eating fattening foods for many years now, so it wouldn't be a problem.
As to your comment about the hamburger, really, its sounds like you are saying that men are like starving people who cannot resist a last chance at a meal, instead of civilised beings who God created with a conscience and a brain.
I DO NOT find your comments laughable, I dont think rape is a laughing matter.
Also, how would you explain people from tribes in remote countries like in the Amazon? They walk around more than 1/2 nakd all the time, and they aren't continually being raped by the men in their tribes? Maybe they are more civilised than the type of people you describe?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-31-2006, 12:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
I cannot believe you would compare eating a hamburger to being raped? And, being a model, I have resisted eating fattening foods for many years now, so it wouldn't be a problem.
As to your comment about the hamburger, really, its sounds like you are saying that men are like starving people who cannot resist a last chance at a meal, instead of civilised beings who God created with a conscience and a brain.
I DO NOT find your comments laughable, I dont think rape is a laughing matter.
Also, how would you explain people from tribes in remote countries like in the Amazon? They walk around more than 1/2 nakd all the time, and they aren't continually being raped by the men in their tribes? Maybe they are more civilised than the type of people you describe?
how do u kno wats going around ova at the amazon? what have you lived wiv them for a long time or something?
aah so ur a model :rollseyes , i only compared starvation to lust to give you an insight to what i believe is happening around us! i kno very well that rape is much worser BUT im saying if you kno rape happens, WHY NOT DECREASE IT? WHY? WHY DO U INSIST ON WEARING SUCH CLOTHING KNOWING WHAT MEN THINK? this encourages men! They look at u and think ur dressed in such a way to "attract" there attention and when they rape you they may even think you "want it". I hope i hav made myself clear. is there nething else i need to explain??

peace....
Reply

irsha
03-31-2006, 12:22 PM
Oh you have made yourself clear alright, very clear. I just hope I never meet anyone like you in real life.
Reply

Umu 'Isa
03-31-2006, 12:30 PM
it is unfortunate that such acts happen but it does.. i agree with you no does mean no! but a half naked girl is more likely to be raped than a covered girl.. that is one of the wisdoms behind the hijab.. like it or not thats the facts.. there is not much we can do about it
Reply

irsha
03-31-2006, 12:35 PM
They are the facts are they? Do you have any figures to back that up? I ,mean , I am continually asked to back up things I say, why not this- I have heard so many miuslims say this, but where are the figures to back it up? Did someone do a study based on how many square centimetres of skin on a rape victim were showing before she was raped? If so, show me the link? and I dont want some vague link on how many westerners are raped compared to muslim countries, who me he study?
There is also a thing called common sense, I am not about to walk naked down a back street in Sydney at 4am, but there is no reason I cannot wear sexy clothes when I am in company at night clubs etc, or wearing my G string on a beach where plenty of other girls are as well.
Reply

Umu 'Isa
03-31-2006, 12:45 PM
if you don't want me to show you the figures of women being raped in a western country compared to a woman being raped in a muslim country then what should i show you?? may i ask why you dont want these figures? is it because the number of rapes are a lot more higher in western countries?

if you want to go walking around the streets in skimpy clothes, go ahead. But there are sick immoral people out there that will use that as an opportunity.. like i said.. like it or not but that is how it is.
Reply

Al-Mu'min
03-31-2006, 01:18 PM
Peace Irsha.
First of all No means No. Even if she was nude, no one has the right to rape a her.
Secondly I know you believe a modestly dressed person is less likely to be raped don't you?

format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
They are the facts are they? Do you have any figures to back that up? I ,mean , I am continually asked to back up things I say, why not this- I have heard so many miuslims say this, but where are the figures to back it up? Did someone do a study based on how many square centimetres of skin on a rape victim were showing before she was raped? If so, show me the link? and I dont want some vague link on how many westerners are raped compared to muslim countries, who me he study?

What kind of other study do you suggest?? The fact is that islamic countries have a way lesser rape rate than any other country. Live with it. Now let me turn the tableon you: Why don't you back up your words with facts huh? Give me the proof where it says modestly dressed women are more likely to be raped.
You should be asking why Islamic practicing countries have a lesser rape rate?
The fact is we Muslims are the best in doing preventive measures to avoid this horrible crime from occuring.
1. Everybody dressess modestly.
2. We are encouraged to lower our gaze.
3. A man isn't supposed to even shake hands with a woman over 12, and vise versa, unless they are married.
4. Men and women don't even conversate unless it is important.
5. Early marraige is prescribed since it avoids these types of crimes and sins.

By the way, to further prove my point: The U.S has one of the highest rape rate; my question is when was the last time you heard a practicing Muslimah get raped? Almost never... right? Must be the dress code huh?

"There is also a thing called common sense, I am not about to walk naked down a back street in Sydney at 4am, but there is no reason I cannot wear sexy clothes when I am in company at night clubs etc, or wearing my G string on a beach where plenty of other girls are as well."

You are right. Common sense is needed. But can you keep your common sense after drinking at night club at night? Aren't you more likely to be raped drunk and wearind revealing clothes at the same time?.


or wearing my G string on a beach where plenty of other girls are as well."

No one will rape you on the beach or the company where there are a lot of people.
Peace out.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-31-2006, 01:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
Oh you have made yourself clear alright, very clear. I just hope I never meet anyone like you in real life.
AMEEN OH SUPPORTER OF FILTHY DISGUSTING GROTESQUE THOUGHTS!!!!!!!!!!

PEACE!
Reply

Al-Mu'min
03-31-2006, 01:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
AMEEN OH SUPPORTER OF FILTHY DISGUSTING GROTESQUE THOUGHTS!!!!!!!!!!

PEACE!
Lets understand and dialogue with one another peacefully brother. Irsha keep your temper down as well sister.

Peace out.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-31-2006, 01:27 PM
lol... listen irsha Abd'Majid is just giving you the facts. There are sick perverted men out there who can't control there desires, or who are very desperate. They have no right to practice their ill-thoughts on innocent women, but it does happen unfortunately. In order for you to be protected you need to cover yourself up, and perhaps the punishment for rapists should be a lil more harsh. No one is saying that these women want or deserve to be raped. The fact is that if you are wearing less revealing clothes the men are less likely to get aroused... what are they going to get aroused at, the texture of the material you're wearing? And perhaps people should get married at the right age, that might help a little bit. I hope I haven't said anything offensive.
-Peace
Reply

irsha
03-31-2006, 02:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam
if you don't want me to show you the figures of women being raped in a western country compared to a woman being raped in a muslim country then what should i show you?? may i ask why you dont want these figures? is it because the number of rapes are a lot more higher in western countries?

if you want to go walking around the streets in skimpy clothes, go ahead. But there are sick immoral people out there that will use that as an opportunity.. like i said.. like it or not but that is how it is.
The figures have nothing to do with what women wear. Unless you can show a direct correlation between what the rape victims were wearing at the time they were raped, and if you care to do any study on this- you will see that the vast majority of rape victims know their attacker and what the vic tim wears has nothing to do with why they were raped. Rapists are usually on a power trip, not turned on so much they cannot help themselves.
. Besides, given the way rape victims are treated in Islam, being made to prove their innocence, it would hardly surprise if the reported fugures are grossly understated.
The fact of the matter is, you all just surmise that it is so with no proof whatsoever,
Reply

irsha
03-31-2006, 03:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
how do u kno wats going around ova at the amazon? what have you lived wiv them for a long time or something?
aah so ur a model :rollseyes , i only compared starvation to lust to give you an insight to what i believe is happening around us! i kno very well that rape is much worser BUT im saying if you kno rape happens, WHY NOT DECREASE IT? WHY? WHY DO U INSIST ON WEARING SUCH CLOTHING KNOWING WHAT MEN THINK? this encourages men! They look at u and think ur dressed in such a way to "attract" there attention and when they rape you they may even think you "want it". I hope i hav made myself clear. is there nething else i need to explain??

peace....
Like I said, you have made your attitude to women VERY clear, and I just hope to never met anyone like you in real life, I will no longer converse with you
Reply

HeiGou
03-31-2006, 03:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
lol... listen irsha Abd'Majid is just giving you the facts. There are sick perverted men out there who can't control there desires, or who are very desperate. They have no right to practice their ill-thoughts on innocent women, but it does happen unfortunately. In order for you to be protected you need to cover yourself up, and perhaps the punishment for rapists should be a lil more harsh. No one is saying that these women want or deserve to be raped. The fact is that if you are wearing less revealing clothes the men are less likely to get aroused... what are they going to get aroused at, the texture of the material you're wearing? And perhaps people should get married at the right age, that might help a little bit. I hope I haven't said anything offensive.
Well I am not sure he is giving the facts so much as his interpretation of the facts. Let's assume that there are sick and perverted men out there. And let's assume that these sick and perverted men get arosed at the thought of making women afraid, instilling terror and hurting them; that they are rapists in fact. Will they get aroused at the sight of some material? Well perhaps, but it is likely that what really gets them interested is the thought of imposing their power on a helpless woman - revenge for whatever psychological problems they have with women in general. They want to humiliate and scare in order to feel big and powerful. A covered woman might excite them even more because she will be even more humiliated if she is chaste (or even better virginial) and pious.

The world is full of sick people you know. It is not as simple as you make out.
Reply

azim
03-31-2006, 03:24 PM
Salam.

I hope everyone here has read the actual article which was posted, in it's entirety and not just bits highlighted.

As I said earlier, if and how much a women is 'reponsible' must be analysed case by case for true justice.

I remember a case recently, where a women accused a man of rape. The case was later thrown out as it was revealed that the 'victim' could not remembering giving consent but was too intoxicated to be sure (The event took place in front of the victims flat, she believed if she wanted sex, she would have invited him but does not remember the event to be sure). Yes, rape is a horrible thing for the women - however that does not allow a society to condemn the man for rape when he may not even have been aware it was against her will.
Reply

Muezzin
03-31-2006, 03:27 PM
^that's what you call a fair, reasonable response. Let's fill the whole thread with posts like it :)
Reply

HeiGou
03-31-2006, 03:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
^that's what you call a fair, reasonable response. Let's fill the whole thread with posts like it :)
Naaah, why break a habit of a lifetime and start being reasonable now?
Reply

Muezzin
03-31-2006, 03:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Naaah, why break a habit of a lifetime and start being reasonable now?
Are you a smoker? ;)

Anyway, on-topic, I agree that rape needs to be decided on a case by case basis, just like murders do.
Reply

Snowflake
03-31-2006, 04:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
. Besides, given the way rape victims are treated in Islam, being made to prove their innocence, it would hardly surprise if the reported fugures are grossly understated.
The fact of the matter is, you all just surmise that it is so with no proof whatsoever,
It's true many rapes are never reported out of bringing shame on the family honour. Therefore statistics don't prove if there are more rapes in the west than in muslims countries. But don't assume that it is only muslim women who have to prove their innocence. Rape victims are even cross-questioned in the west during rape trials and often feel they are the ones on trial (their own words). In all cases it's one party's word against the others. Of course the victims innocence has to be proven to prove the rapist guilty.
Reply

j4763
03-31-2006, 04:21 PM
Why should women have to cover up? Many women dress the way they do because they want to look in the mirror and look attractive for themselves not just for men!

If a man sees an attractive women in revelling cloths imo yes he can think to himself “that’s a bit of alright” or even approach the woman and complement her or even ask her out on a date. If she rejects the offer then that’s it, end of, no excesses.
It’s human nature to be attracted to a pretty girl, and the other way around. Ok yes some might say it’s what’s on the inside that counts but first impressing count.

If you met someone who was totally covered up but fell for them, would it not be some what of a disappointment when you got to see them in the flesh (face and all) and it looked like when god was handing out looks she/he thought they said books and got one straight in the face (aka pig ugly ;D ).

Anyways, when told no it means no, simple as. I imaging most of use learned what no meant in our early years of growing up.
Reply

HeiGou
03-31-2006, 04:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
Why should women have to cover up?
Perhaps we should ask if this applies across the board in Islam. One day I want to own a nice shiny car. I used to think a BMW but now I think perhaps a top model Lexus. With a nice clean shiny interior set with real wood perhaps. Certainly leather seats. And a DVD player with more speakers than you would think possible. So if I had such a car and I parked this on the street would it be my fault if someone saw it, envied it and stole it?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-31-2006, 04:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
The figures have nothing to do with what women wear. ,
plz delete this post, look below :)
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-31-2006, 04:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
The figures have nothing to do with what women wear. ,
scuse me miss, are you tryin to insinuate that it makes no difference if a woman is naked or dressed like an eskimo? either one has the same chance of being raped?

i will appreciate you answer :)

peace :)

PS: sry for talkin in such an offensive manner before, i simply think innocent ladies will be provoked less if they cover up more, again i apologise, hope u accept
Reply

HeiGou
03-31-2006, 04:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
scuse me miss, are you tryin to insinuate that it makes no difference if a woman is nakes or dressed like an eskimo? eithe one has the same chance of being raped?
Actually I think that is pretty much what she is telling you. Not insinuating at all.

Of all the factors in rape I expect that opportunity grossly out-weighs clothing. And besides most rapes in the West are commited by family members and relatives. Not strangers.
Reply

Malsidabym
03-31-2006, 04:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Perhaps we should ask if this applies across the board in Islam. One day I want to own a nice shiny car. I used to think a BMW but now I think perhaps a top model Lexus. With a nice clean shiny interior set with real wood perhaps. Certainly leather seats. And a DVD player with more speakers than you would think possible. So if I had such a car and I parked this on the street would it be my fault if someone saw it, envied it and stole it?
Well NOW I see what some of the members are trying to say! Of course! HeiGou, I guarantee if you parked that in front of my place, I would not be able to control my instincts. My instincts would tell me that it was natural for me to be behind the wheel of that car.:happy: I would stand beside it for awhile resisting like this, :exhausted :scared:. But then, unfortunately, that would be replaced by :Evil:.
(Yes, it would be your fault)
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-31-2006, 04:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malsidabym
Well NOW I see what some of the members are trying to say! Of course! HeiGou, I guarantee if you parked that in front of my place, I would not be able to control my instincts. My instincts would tell me that it was natural for me to be behind the wheel of that car.:happy: I would stand beside it for awhile resisting like this, :exhausted :scared:. But then, unfortunately, that would be replaced by :Evil:.
haha ;D lol

thats why such a umm.. "vehicle"... should be "parked" in a "garage".

lol :p

PEACE
Reply

j4763
03-31-2006, 04:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malsidabym
Well NOW I see what some of the members are trying to say! Of course! HeiGou, I guarantee if you parked that in front of my place, I would not be able to control my instincts. My instincts would tell me that it was natural for me to be behind the wheel of that car.:happy: I would stand beside it for awhile resisting like this, :exhausted :scared:. But then, unfortunately, that would be replaced by :Evil:.
(Yes, it would be your fault)
And if i saw that lovely car, i'd tell you what a great car it is and ask for a ride, if told "no way"... well guess i'd have to be on my way.
Reply

azim
03-31-2006, 04:47 PM
Why should women have to cover up? Many women dress the way they do because they want to look in the mirror and look attractive for themselves not just for men!
This is starting a bigger topic which I believe has been discussed many times already on the forum. If you want to continue this line of questioning, open a new thread and allow this one to stay on topic.

PS: Women dress up for many different reasons, and if a women chooses to look modest and not draw attention to herself in the form of legs uncovered and boobs that can pierce through space and time - then thats her decision.

format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Perhaps we should ask if this applies across the board in Islam. One day I want to own a nice shiny car. I used to think a BMW but now I think perhaps a top model Lexus. With a nice clean shiny interior set with real wood perhaps. Certainly leather seats. And a DVD player with more speakers than you would think possible. So if I had such a car and I parked this on the street would it be my fault if someone saw it, envied it and stole it?
Odd analogy. A more correct one is that you have nice shiny new Lexus, you leave your laptop on in the car, doors open, windows down and completely unattended. However, I return to my original point of rapes being taken case by case. (PS: In this case, I don't believe that the theif is absolved from responsiblity. It isn't his property to take. If this analogy was taken straight to a women/rapist situation, even then then the man is not absolved from responsiblity, all because a women is dressed in a certain way does not give him right to rape her.)

Do remember also that the Islamic rule on covering up is not of a simple-minded mentality of 'you flaunt it, you'll get molested'. It is deeper and wiser than that - it suggests a society where people (not just women) are not viewed and judged according to their sexual attractiveness. It is also to promote a society where men's lusts and womens envy are not enraged daily as a scantily clad female walks past.

I feel this is edging off topic however and perhaps worthy of another thread.
Reply

HeiGou
03-31-2006, 05:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azim
Odd analogy. A more correct one is that you have nice shiny new Lexus, you leave your laptop on in the car, doors open, windows down and completely unattended.
And then it would be my fault if either my laptop or my car was stolen?

I think I should be able to leave my laptop in my car with the windows down in full expectation that it will be there when I get back. And if it isn't the blame is entirely the person who took it. I should not be judged because I did not do enough to protect my property.

Do remember also that the Islamic rule on covering up is not of a simple-minded mentality of 'you flaunt it, you'll get molested'. It is deeper and wiser than that - it suggests a society where people (not just women) are not viewed and judged according to their sexual attractiveness. It is also to promote a society where men's lusts and womens envy are not enraged daily as a scantily clad female walks past.
Well it may suggest that to you, but I am afraid it suggest to me what some other people point out here - that Islam thinks men are pigs who cannot control themselves and women only have themselves to blame. But I do agree that men's lusts and women's envy will not be "enraged" daily as a scantily clad female walks past. Women's envy will not be enraged at all because they will be locked up at home - can't get too much protection after all - and men's lusts will be enraged daily by heavily-clad women walking past. Men will be interested in women and if they do not see much, they will fantasise about that.
Reply

Snowflake
03-31-2006, 05:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Actually I think that is pretty much what she is telling you. Not insinuating at all.

Of all the factors in rape I expect that opportunity grossly out-weighs clothing. And besides most rapes in the West are commited by family members and relatives. Not strangers.
*takes a deep breath* I have to say one thing. If anyone doesnt like it then tough! As some who has seen numerous Indian films... they always showed that villains would see a pretty girl (walking alone wiggling hips n all) and get turned on by the sight of exposed flesh. They'd then chase the poor girl and rape her. Free sex. No winding & dining needed, just do the deed and off you go. I think this is why some men assume that a woman who isn't covered up is asking for it.

I've also noted that in countries where dating/sex before marriage is forbidden, men rape out of lust alone. Power/hate of women are not the issues there. They are just frustrated, not married, probably can't afford prostitues or there arent any available and so take their frustrations out on women or animals and some even practice homosexuality until they are married. Fact!

In the west most rapes happen for a number of reasons e.g. being high on drink & drugs, maybe even including the influence of pornography, desire for power and control over a victim, out of hostility, aggression and anger (hatred of a woman/women) to achieve dominance and self-validation through the humiliation and degradation of another, or maybe just because a sicko cannot get a women and has to rape one to satisfy his lust.

What ever the reasons are. No woman is asking to be raped. Not even if she is naked as the day she was born. But I think that a man raping out of lust alone, is more likely to target a woman in a mini-skirt than one who is covered up. Not because she asked for it, but because her being exposed adds to the visual excitement of the rapist.

With men like that around it is safer to cover up. :)
Reply

HeiGou
03-31-2006, 05:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
*takes a deep breath* I have to say one thing. If anyone doesnt like it then tough! As some who has seen numerous Indian films... they always showed that villains would see a pretty girl (walking alone wiggling hips n all) and get turned on by the sight of exposed flesh. They'd then chase the poor girl and rape her. Free sex. No winding & dining needed, just do the deed and off you go. I think this is why some men assume that a woman who isn't covered up is asking for it.
Let me say, to quote the immortal Oprah Winfrey, you go Girl!

Rape is hardly free sex - they take a huge risk and they might even get killed if they are unlucky. But otherwise I am with you. But perhaps the films show it like that because of the cultural expectation that this is what rapists do. It must be hard for normal people to think what goes through a rapists mind.

I've also noted that in countries where dating/sex before marriage is forbidden, men rape out of lust alone. Power/hate of women are not the issues there. They are just frustrated, not married, probably can't afford prostitues or there arent any available and so take their frustrations out on women or animals and some even practice homosexuality until they are married. Fact!
Except that it takes a particularly cruel and de-sensitised mind to think that this is something acceptable - or even what women really want. I don't think the two are unrelated. If normal relations do not work out or are unavailable, I expect men become more bitter and start thinking stranger and stranger things.

In the west most rapes happen for a number of reasons e.g. being high on drink & drugs, maybe even including the influence of pornography, desire for power and control over a victim, out of hostility, aggression and anger (hatred of a woman/women) to achieve dominance and self-validation through the humiliation and degradation of another, or maybe just because a sicko cannot get a women and has to rape one to satisfy his lust.
I think the psychological reasons must come first even in non-Western societies, because why else would anyone do it? If they understood the hurt and the pain they cause, they would not do it no matter how "lonely" they were. They must first come to rationalise and excuse their desires before they act on them.

What ever the reasons are. No woman is asking to be raped. Not even if she is naked as the day she was born. But I think that a man raping out of lust alone, is more likely to target a woman in a mini-skirt than one who is covered up. Not because she asked for it, but because her being exposed adds to the visual excitement of the rapist.
Totally. As far as the first comment goes. Do you think that the visual excitement is all there is to it though?

With men like that around it is safer to cover up. :)
Harsh words.
Reply

Malsidabym
03-31-2006, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
And if i saw that lovely car, i'd tell you what a great car it is and ask for a ride, if told "no way"... well guess i'd have to be on my way.
You do know I was joking, right?:?
Reply

Lush
03-31-2006, 09:12 PM
if i put a big fat juicy burger in front of you while ur starving YOU TRY RESIST EATING IT! GO ON? TRY? IF U MANAGE TO DO IT, WIV ALL DUE RESPECT MENTION THE SAME THING AGAIN!!!! and this time i will shut up and accept exactly what u sAY.
Comparing women to food is:

Sexist

Foolish

Demeaning

Dismissive

Dehumanizing

Fetishist

Perverse

Ignorant

and

Just plain wrong.


Temptation is a nature, a nature every1 is well aware of. Some men are ofcourse weaker in controlling temptation. Women should understand this and do there part in helping "civilization" because it is noway civilised for women to walk around half naked expecting men to not lust after them. Not every men can be like muslims who lower there gazes so i find ur comments laughable!!!!!!!
I find your comments disturbing. You have zero perspective on the global phenomenon of rape and sexual violence, and yet you deem yourself qualified to judge. I would urge you and people like you to educate yourselves on this phenomenon.
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
03-31-2006, 09:18 PM
Some of you memebers need to chill. Come on just have a debate in a civilised manner :)
Reply

Lush
03-31-2006, 09:21 PM
As a woman who survived sexual assault, I find some of the postings on this thread both dangerous and demeaning.

Please excuse me if I am currently incapable of 'chilling.'
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
03-31-2006, 09:24 PM
I am sorry to hear that Lush. Let me ask you a question, rape is in the increase...how do you think should be done about? What do you think in particular should women to do decrese this?
Reply

Lush
03-31-2006, 09:48 PM
Where is rape on the increase? Are you speaking about a specific country? Or pretty much the world?

Well, I would argue that these steps are important:

1) People need to educate themselves. Both men and women. We need respect ourselves and each other, we need to learn from one another. We cannot continue to dehumanize others.

2) Adequate help and protection needs to be given to civilian women in war-zones, since a lot of systematic rapes happen in destabilized countries and communities. Rape is a war crime. Everyone needs to be aware of this.

3) The culture of silence and shame needs to be stripped away. When I was little, my mother, a product of patriarchal society, used to tell me that "only stupid women get raped." So, after my assault, I didn't tell anyone for years. I was a "stupid woman"! Why would I shame myself even further? In communities where rape victims are stigmatized, attackers have free reign. They KNOW that their victims will not dare come forward. This allows them continue to attack others.

4) Women and children and, yes, men, who are raped should no longer be stigmatized. Did you know that in regions like Eastern Africa women who have been raped in conflicts are dumped by their husbands and shunned by their communities? More often than not, their only way out is suicide. This needs to stop. It allows for the perspective that rape-victims are "damaged goods," and discourages them from coming forward and naming their attackers.

5) People need to look out for one another. Everyone feels comfortable about asking a couple of good friend to walk them home, or walk them to the library. However, we know that acquaintance rape, as opposed to stranger rape is the real problem (I was also assaulted by someone I knew, it was no stranger). Therefore, we need to establish better relationships with one another, we need to know whom to trust. It's not a panacea, but I think it might help. Also, if you have a friend who is inebriated, unwell, or perhaps if you suspect that her Pepsi has been laced with drugs, take action! Women ought to look out for other women. If you, as a man, feel that another man wants to take advantage of someone, take action! Men need to look out for other men. Communities that work together on these issues see a strong decrease in rape and sexual assault.

6) Combat the direct percipitators of rape. Did you know that some studies show that in the West, men who rape fall into two categories: they were abused and/or humiliated as children, or they were utterly spoiled and given free reign as children? In either case, they were never educated on the fact that other people are human beings (as opposed to hamburgers). If parents took more responsibility for raising their children properly, if the state did not fail to address the concerns of abused/neglected children, we would see less rape. This is my opinion.

7) Technology. In the West, a battered/raped woman has her body scrupulously photographed, DNA samples are taken, her clothes are combed for the tiniest bits of evidence, and so on. I believe that this practice needs to spread to more nations. I hate to be gruesome, but rape victims should not take showers after they are assaulted. The immediate desire is to try to clean yourself up after what happened, I know, I've been there, but valuable evidence can be lost. Everyone needs to be educated on how their own bodies can provide evidence against attackers. There should be zero shame in being examined as soon as possible by trained professionals after the attack. This, I think, provides a deterrent at least in some cases. A single hair from a rapist, found on the victim, could help with his arrest.

Overall, we need to focus on the fact that there are issues of power, domination, and humiliation involved in rape.
Reply

azim
03-31-2006, 10:08 PM
Well it may suggest that to you, but I am afraid it suggest to me what some other people point out here - that Islam thinks men are pigs who cannot control themselves and women only have themselves to blame. But I do agree that men's lusts and women's envy will not be "enraged" daily as a scantily clad female walks past. Women's envy will not be enraged at all because they will be locked up at home - can't get too much protection after all - and men's lusts will be enraged daily by heavily-clad women walking past. Men will be interested in women and if they do not see much, they will fantasise about that.
If what Islam teaches is shown to you and what Islam teaches is explained to you - and you decide to take a completely different interpretation. What can anyone do? I feel your opinion is set - "Islam is an outdated way of life and the West are superior in all ways".
Reply

azim
03-31-2006, 10:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
And then it would be my fault if either my laptop or my car was stolen?

I think I should be able to leave my laptop in my car with the windows down in full expectation that it will be there when I get back. And if it isn't the blame is entirely the person who took it. I should not be judged because I did not do enough to protect my property.
No it wouldn't be your fault your laptop was stolen. However, you would be judged as careless and irresponsible. Only an idiot would expect it to still be there when he comes back.

I don't feel the car analogy does justice to the situation either way - though humans love to generalise we cannot when talking about rape.

I would also like to remind everyone that we're not talking about Islam believing women are the ones responsible for rape - as the Islamic view has not been made clear and cannot be made clear by anyone but an expert scholar in the field.

Rather, we are discussing if women 'can' be responsible in some situations for being raped. There is no Shariah punishment for a 'raped' women - full stop. The 'guilt' talked about earlier is to be responsible in front of Allah for not taking the neccesary precautions to protect themself and to take care of themself by placing themselves in an openly dangerous situation.

I can imagine the phrase above will be jumped on by people (*cough* HeiGou *cough*) saying how there are no 'openly dangerous situations'.

If someone is intoxicated to the point they cannot even remember giving consent for sex or not - is that not an openly dangerous situation?

If someone invites a complete stranger to their flat - not making clear the intentions - is that not a dangerous situation?

If someone is offering themselves for sex, and they are raped - is that not a dangerous situation? (I'm reffering to prostitutes here - there are a substantial amount of rape cases reported by prostitutes).

This does not mean under Shariah law they are punished or guilty 'of being raped'.

I'd like to remind people of the original article which prompted this debate.
Moving to your question. Yes, sister, raped women are not punished in Islam. What punishment?! This is like saying that a person robbed of his property should be punished. Actually, this notion belongs to places where the law of the jungle is in operation.
I am sure that realistically, all rape victims are exacty that, victims! Yet there are grey areas, and Islam accomodates for these grey areas.

Justice is not following emotion. Rape is a crime that is detested and hated in all our hearts (I hope). Yet to judge cases emotionally is not justice. Critical thinking is neccessary. There are many cases against men charging them of rape when rape did not occur. Justice is for both these men, and also the rape victims.
Reply

irsha
04-01-2006, 03:46 AM
PS: Women dress up for many different reasons, and if a women chooses to look modest and not draw attention to herself in the form of legs uncovered and boobs that can pierce through space and time - then thats her decision.

Of course it is, and if a woman chooses to wear head to toe covering- no problem, a woamn should be able to wear what she wants as long as she takes into consideration others, I would not walk into a mosque wearing a mini skirt and see thru top, nor would I walk down the main street in a g string- time and place, but if one goes to a night cloub, knowing girls like to wear sexy clothing there- they should not be offended, and it certainly doesnt mean they want to be raped.


Do remember also that the Islamic rule on covering up is not of a simple-minded mentality of 'you flaunt it, you'll get molested'.
It is deeper and wiser than that - it suggests a society where people (not just women) are not viewed and judged according to their sexual attractiveness. It is also to promote a society where men's lusts and womens envy are not enraged daily as a scantily clad female walks past.

Nice to see that attitude at last here!
Reply

cleo
04-01-2006, 04:19 AM
I have to say, with regret, that the girls now-a-days dress, in a way,that says, come get me. Here in the land of no morals. Hardly. I think it is a shame, and I am a woman..
Reply

snakelegs
04-01-2006, 04:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
NEVA A WOMANS FAULT?

if i put a big fat juicy burger in front of you while ur starving YOU TRY RESIST EATING IT! GO ON? TRY? IF U MANAGE TO DO IT, WIV ALL DUE RESPECT MENTION THE SAME THING AGAIN!!!! and this time i will shut up and accept exactly what u sAY.

Temptation is a nature, a nature every1 is well aware of. Some men are ofcourse weaker in controlling temptation. Women should understand this and do there part in helping "civilization" because it is noway civilised for women to walk around half naked expecting men to not lust after them. Not every men can be like muslims who lower there gazes so i find ur comments laughable!!!!!!!
this means, if men are so helpless and have so little control over themselves than they should all be locked up for their own protection from themselves because it is not safe to venture out in public - they might meat a big fat juicy burger.
Reply

azim
04-01-2006, 09:05 AM
Of course it is, and if a woman chooses to wear head to toe covering- no problem, a woamn should be able to wear what she wants as long as she takes into consideration others, I would not walk into a mosque wearing a mini skirt and see thru top, nor would I walk down the main street in a g string- time and place, but if one goes to a night cloub, knowing girls like to wear sexy clothing there- they should not be offended, and it certainly doesnt mean they want to be raped.
If a Muslim goes to a night club and then starts insulting the women there for the clothing they are wearing - then he is a hyprocrite - preaching one thing and doing another.

As Muslims, we believe nightclubs and the like are places we should not go, for reasons including the large amount of intoxicants (beyond simply alchohol) that are consumed and the open sexual nature of the place.

Islam teaches sex is a not the satisfaction of base desires but expression of love and affection between married couples.

Just to explain the Islamic view on nightclubs while we're here ;P.

Nice to see that attitude at last here!
I feel ashamed that an attitude so central to Islamic society has not been predominant on an Islamic forum.

Peace.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-01-2006, 12:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
this means, if men are so helpless and have so little control over themselves than they should all be locked up for their own protection from themselves because it is not safe to venture out in public - they might meat a big fat juicy burger.
yes they should be locked up, i wud say they should even be killed if they actually act on these disgusting desires BUT THEY ARENT! AND THEY DONT GET KILLED?

What can we do? We must do something right? We must take some sort of action to decrease the rate of rape! Rape isnt a minor thing, i wud gladly do the smallest thing i could to decrease it such as "cover up".

:sl:
Reply

HeiGou
04-01-2006, 02:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
What can we do? We must do something right? We must take some sort of action to decrease the rate of rape! Rape isnt a minor thing, i wud gladly do the smallest thing i could to decrease it such as "cover up".
How about accepting that man share most of the blame and women very little? That, if spread to the rest of the community, would mean fewer women would fear being killed by their families, more women would report rape and hence more rapists would be caught.

Somehow I think that might have more of an impact on rape than forcing women to cover up (which obviously does not work because Muslim societies usually feel the need to go even further and not let women out of the house).
Reply

irsha
04-02-2006, 02:18 PM
:heated: The point of this post was to highlite the backward thinking of some people who think that a woman should have to prove her virtue, her morality, her resistance to the attacker, or anything else before she is found to be not at fault in a rape. This sort of thinking belongs with any other primitive ideas; consigned to history. The over all feeling I get here, is that if one doesn't wear the hijab and behave as a good muslim, then one asks to get raped. It was interesting that only one muslim poster seemed to get that same feeling and say something. I would hope that none of your relatives get raped, and then have to go through a process to prove anything in order to be absolved of guilt!
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-02-2006, 02:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
:heated: The point of this post was to highlite the backward thinking of some people who think that a woman should have to prove her virtue, her morality, her resistance to the attacker, or anything else before she is found to be not at fault in a rape. This sort of thinking belongs with any other primitive ideas; consigned to history. The over all feeling I get here, is that if one doesn't wear the hijab and behave as a good muslim, then one asks to get raped. It was interesting that only one muslim poster seemed to get that same feeling and say something. I would hope that none of your relatives get raped, and then have to go through a process to prove anything in order to be absolved of guilt!
i actually kno a friends sister who got raped, and she use to dress... in extremely exposing clothes. Lets put it this way her brother insulted the way she dressed! And she herself started wearing a hijaab, WHY? becoz she realised Allah says everything for our benefit, HE GETS BENEFIT OUT OF NOTHING!!! ONLY WE DO!!

:peace:
Reply

Umu 'Isa
04-02-2006, 02:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
if one doesn't wear the hijab and behave as a good muslim, then one asks to get raped.
actually no one said that. All we said was it was more likely for a non covered girl to be raped than a covered one! No one said if shes not covered she is asking for rape!
this is from my personal experience..
before i became muslim, i used to wear clothes that werent tooo revealing but were tight ect.. anyway some awful stuff happened n would not like 2 repeat it on here! but anyway ever since i started wearing the hijab i have never ever come across anyone who has ever spoken 2 me in that manner let alone act upon me in that manner - alhumdulillah.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-02-2006, 02:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam
actually no one said that. h.
ye i neva noticed any1 say that either. Irsha can u quote plz?

:peace: peace :)
Reply

irsha
04-02-2006, 02:39 PM
[QUOTE=Ladee_Maryam;239661]actually no one said that. All we said was it was more likely for a non covered girl to be raped than a covered one! No one said if shes not covered she is asking for rape!

If you are going to quote me, please use the whole sentence"

The over all feeling I get here, is that if one doesn't wear the hijab and behave as a good muslim, then one asks to get raped
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-02-2006, 02:44 PM
[QUOTE=irsha;239680]
format_quote Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam
actually no one said that. All we said was it was more likely for a non covered girl to be raped than a covered one! No one said if shes not covered she is asking for rape!

If you are going to quote me, please use the whole sentence"

The over all feeling I get here, is that if one doesn't wear the hijab and behave as a good muslim, then one asks to get raped
hmm, no thats not the feeling we intend to giv, we jus produce the fact that coverin up helps to reduce rape

:peace: :)
Reply

Umu 'Isa
04-02-2006, 02:47 PM
is there any point on me replying to you? ive noticed this with not only you but other members also, once you get an idea in your head you stick with it no matter what. I don't understand why you (and other members) insist on participating when it is very obvious that you don't agree with what we have to say!!
Reply

irsha
04-02-2006, 02:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam
is there any point on me replying to you? ive noticed this with not only you but other members also, once you get an idea in your head you stick with it no matter what. I don't understand why you (and other members) insist on participating when it is very obvious that you don't agree with what we have to say!!
Why would you say that? I only pointed out that you should quote ALL my sentence otherwise it has a very different meaning to that intended.
Reply

Umu 'Isa
04-02-2006, 02:53 PM
[QUOTE=Abd'Majid;239687]
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha

hmm, no thats not the feeling we intend to giv, we jus produce the fact that coverin up helps to reduce rape

:peace: :)
well this is exactly what i meant
Reply

irsha
04-02-2006, 02:57 PM
[QUOTE=Ladee_Maryam;239706]
format_quote Originally Posted by Abd'Majid

well this is exactly what i meant
Well, I am sorry darl', but the person you quoted is one of the main offenders, have a look back.
Reply

Umu 'Isa
04-02-2006, 03:00 PM
wellll i was jst agreeing with what he just said, which is what the majority of us were trying to say.. covering up reduces rape!
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-02-2006, 03:01 PM
[QUOTE=irsha;239713]
format_quote Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam

Well, I am sorry darl', but the person you quoted is one of the main offenders, have a look back.
astagfirullah!
i apologised for seeming harsh in my language previously!
please dont be a one track person, i jus wanna enlighten you to the beauty and protection islam has offered us!

im sry again, mayb its best i dont reply to u seeing as u have "ENGRAVED" hatred for me... well thats the way it seems.

:peace: peace...
Reply

Lush
04-02-2006, 06:36 PM
wellll i was jst agreeing with what he just said, which is what the majority of us were trying to say.. covering up reduces rape!
I wonder, is there any statistical evidence on this?
Reply

Cheb
04-02-2006, 06:55 PM
Well this is not proof but it can be considered as evidence:

Rapes (per capita)


Rank Country Amount (top to bottom)
#1 South Africa 1.19538 per 1,000 people
#2 Seychelles 0.788294 per 1,000 people
#3 Australia 0.777999 per 1,000 people
#4 Montserrat 0.749384 per 1,000 people
#5 Canada 0.733089 per 1,000 people
#6 Jamaica 0.476608 per 1,000 people
#7 Zimbabwe 0.457775 per 1,000 people
#8 Dominica 0.34768 per 1,000 people
#9 United States 0.301318 per 1,000 people
#10 Iceland 0.246009 per 1,000 people
#11 Papua New Guinea 0.233544 per 1,000 people
#12 New Zealand 0.213383 per 1,000 people
#13 United Kingdom 0.142172 per 1,000 people
#14 Spain 0.140403 per 1,000 people
#15 France 0.139442 per 1,000 people
#16 Korea, South 0.12621 per 1,000 people
#17 Mexico 0.122981 per 1,000 people
#18 Norway 0.120836 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica 0.118277 per 1,000 people
#20 Venezuela 0.115507 per 1,000 people
#21 Finland 0.110856 per 1,000 people
#22 Netherlands 0.100445 per 1,000 people
#23 Denmark 0.0914948 per 1,000 people
#24 Germany 0.0909731 per 1,000 people
#25 Bulgaria 0.0795973 per 1,000 people
#26 Chile 0.0782179 per 1,000 people
#27 Thailand 0.0626305 per 1,000 people
#28 Kyrgyzstan 0.0623785 per 1,000 people
#29 Poland 0.062218 per 1,000 people
#30 Sri Lanka 0.0599053 per 1,000 people
#31 Hungary 0.0588588 per 1,000 people
#32 Estonia 0.0547637 per 1,000 people
#33 Ireland 0.0542829 per 1,000 people
#34 Switzerland 0.0539458 per 1,000 people
#35 Belarus 0.0514563 per 1,000 people
#36 Uruguay 0.0512295 per 1,000 people
#37 Lithuania 0.0508757 per 1,000 people
#38 Malaysia 0.0505156 per 1,000 people
#39 Romania 0.0497089 per 1,000 people
#40 Czech Republic 0.0488234 per 1,000 people
#41 Russia 0.0486543 per 1,000 people
#42 Latvia 0.0454148 per 1,000 people
#43 Moldova 0.0448934 per 1,000 people
#44 Colombia 0.0433254 per 1,000 people
#45 Slovenia 0.0427648 per 1,000 people
#46 Italy 0.0402045 per 1,000 people
#47 Portugal 0.0364376 per 1,000 people
#48 Tunisia 0.0331514 per 1,000 people
#49 Zambia 0.0266383 per 1,000 people
#50 Ukraine 0.0244909 per 1,000 people
#51 Slovakia 0.0237525 per 1,000 people
#52 Mauritius 0.0219334 per 1,000 people
#53 Turkey 0.0180876 per 1,000 people
#54 Japan 0.017737 per 1,000 people
#55 Hong Kong 0.0150746 per 1,000 people
#56 India 0.0143187 per 1,000 people
#57 Qatar 0.0139042 per 1,000 people
#58 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of 0.0132029 per 1,000 people
#59 Greece 0.0106862 per 1,000 people
#60 Georgia 0.0100492 per 1,000 people
#61 Armenia 0.00938652 per 1,000 people
#62 Indonesia 0.00567003 per 1,000 people
#63 Yemen 0.0038597 per 1,000 people
#64 Azerbaijan 0.00379171 per 1,000 people
#65 Saudi Arabia 0.00329321 per 1,000 people

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_percap
Reply

HeiGou
04-02-2006, 06:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
Well this is not proof but it can be considered as evidence:
No it can't. As is well known, some countries, and especially Third World one, have problems reporting crime statistics. This is especially true of Muslim countries which seem to regard it as a crime to say bad things about their countries. On top of which honor killings make reporting limited.
Reply

Cheb
04-02-2006, 07:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
No it can't. As is well known, some countries, and especially Third World one, have problems reporting crime statistics. This is especially true of Muslim countries which seem to regard it as a crime to say bad things about their countries. On top of which honor killings make reporting limited.
Honor killings rarely happen.
And YES it can be used. Where is the proof of your claims?
Reply

Cheb
04-02-2006, 07:17 PM
Oh look I found a crime stat of which Saudi Arabia is top in. :? :rollseyes

Unpaid diplomatic parking fines


Rank Country Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Saudi Arabia 367
#2 Israel 191
#3 Morocco 165
#4 Nigeria 159
#5 Greece 155
#6 Poland 154
#7 France 144
#8 China 140
#9 Canada 135
#10 Sudan 132
#11 Turkey 130
#12 Qatar 122
#13 Egypt 105
#14 Jordan 99
#15 United Arab Emirates 99
#16 Pakistan 97
#17 Ghana 84
#18 Bulgaria 81
#19 Cameroon 77
#20 India 73
#21 Thailand 72
#22 Hungary 68
#23 Germany 66
#24 Zambia 64
#25 Oman 58
#26 Uruguay 57
#27 Gambia, The 56
#28 Cyprus 55
#29 Barbados 54
#30 Spain 50
#31 Bangladesh 49
#32 Tanzania 47
#33 Portugal 45
#34 Tunisia 43
#35 Zimbabwe 38
#36 Brazil 38
#37 Bahrain 37
#38 Italy 35
#39 Romania 34
#40 Gabon 32
#41 Brunei 31
#42 Sierra Leone 28
#43 Malaysia 28
#44 Ethiopia 27
#45 Guatemala 27
#46 Finland 26
#47 Yemen 21
#48 Malawi 20
#49 Liberia 18
#50 United States 17
#51 Venezuela 17
#52 Japan 16
#53 Honduras 16
#54 Guyana 16
#55 Syria 16
#56 Algeria 16
#57 Angola 15
#58 Panama 14
#59 Iran 14
#60 Vietnam 13
#61 Cuba 13
#62 Mauritius 13
#63 Jamaica 12
#64 Fiji 10
#65 Mongolia 9
#66 Bolivia 9
#67 Congo, Democratic Republic of the 9
#68 Burma 9
#69 Mexico 9
#70 Lebanon 9
#71 Botswana 8
#72 Sweden 8
#73 Togo 8
#74 Philippines 8
#75 Senegal 8
#76 Chile 8
#77 Lesotho 7
#78 Peru 7
#79 Nepal 7
#80 Kenya 7
#81 Paraguay 6
#82 Belgium 6
#83 Australia 5
#84 Ireland 5
#85 Somalia 5
#86 Iceland 5
#87 Uganda 5
#88 Norway 4
#89 Seychelles 4
#90 Bahamas, The 4
#91 Costa Rica 4
#92 Netherlands 3
#93 Austria 3
#94 Sri Lanka 3
#95 Singapore 3
#96 Indonesia 3
#97 Mozambique 3
#98 Swaziland 2
#99 Switzerland 2
#100 Luxembourg 2
#101 Papua New Guinea 2
#102 Malta 2
#103 South Africa 2
#104 Argentina 1
#105 Benin 1
#106 El Salvador 1
#107 Dominica 1
#108 Ecuador 1
#109 Nicaragua 1
#110 Denmark 1
#111 New Zealand 0
#112 Grenada 0
#113 Antigua and Barbuda 0
#114 Afghanistan 0
#115 Colombia 0
#116 Kuwait 0
Total: 4,371
Weighted average: 37.7
:happy:
Reply

Lush
04-02-2006, 11:07 PM
Well this is not proof but it can be considered as evidence:
Muslim countries historically have vast underreporting of rape, sexual assault, and abuse. Unfortunately.

Though I would heartily agree that the U.S. has a rape problem. The issues of rape are some that I have discussed in a previous, detailed post.
Reply

irsha
04-02-2006, 11:21 PM
I keep seeing people quote rape statistics to try and back up their opinion that covering up reduces rape. I say rubbish. It is useless unless you can show a recognised study showing a direct correlation from how many rapes to how much skin is shown.
Also, do you really believe rapes in muslim countries are reported on a national basis? Oh yeah, I can just see it- woman is raped, she is lucky enough to find 4 male witnesses to say she was, or the rapist in a fit of remorse (yeah, sure) goes to the authorities and admits it. Then, after the poor girl (risking persecution and punishement for zina) has proven her morality, fidelity, and that she fought the attacker as best as she could, the rapist is finally fopund guilty. Of course, then this fact is reported and recorded on a national data base which they are willing to share with the world. Yeah, I believe in the tooth fairy as well.
Reply

Cheb
04-03-2006, 06:40 AM
I am curious, did you even read your first post?
When did it say you needed 4 male witnesses? What are you going on about?
Allow me to quote some parts then...
"So what I’m trying to say is that, contrary to what some Westerners claim, the issue is not just “bring four witnesses or set the accused free”."No where did it say that 4 male witnesses were needed.
"and anyone who is forced to do something is not guilty of sin."
That pretty much sums it up.
Reply

HeiGou
04-03-2006, 10:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
Oh look I found a crime stat of which Saudi Arabia is top in. :? :rollseyes

Unpaid diplomatic parking fines
Now compare this with the statistics on rape. First of all, the Saudis are in the West and so have a proper system of crime reporting - that is, if not a competent one at least the same one that Western rape figures are reported in. Second there is no bias that can be detected here: police do not know which car is Saudi or not. There is no incentive to not report because of national sensitivity. There are no honor killings associated with parking tickets. All of which suggests that reporting might be higher. Thirdly the whole system of diplomatic parking fines is vountary - they cannot be enforced as diplomats have diplomatic immunity. It reflects whether or not the diplomats have internalised the values of the criminal justice system, whether they do not do something because they know it is wrong as opposed to whether or not they do not do something because they will be executed or whatever. And how do Muslims do?

Rank Country Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Saudi Arabia 367
#3 Morocco 165
#4 Nigeria 159
#10 Sudan 132
#11 Turkey 130
#12 Qatar 122
#13 Egypt 105
#14 Jordan 99
#15 United Arab Emirates 99
#16 Pakistan 97
#19 Cameroon 77
#25 Oman 58
#31 Bangladesh 49
#34 Tunisia 43
#37 Bahrain 37
#41 Brunei 31
#43 Malaysia 28
#47 Yemen 21
#55 Syria 16
#56 Algeria 16
#59 Iran 14
#75 Senegal 8
#85 Somalia 5
#96 Indonesia 3
#114 Afghanistan 0
#116 Kuwait 0
Total: 4,371
The Muslim countries of the world are grossly disproportionately represented at the top end of these figures. European countries are disproportionately represented at the bottom on thesse figures. And this is despite the fact that countries like Morocco and Nigeria are likely to have few diplomats in comparision with, say, Germany. What this proves is that the rulers of these Muslim countries have not internalised the values of the criminal justice system. They obey the law because they are afraid of punishment, not because they know it is wrong. Take that fear of punishment away, as in here by granting diplomatic immunity, and they break the law without any shame at all. If this extends to their communities as a whole, and clearly it does in Nigeria, then you would understand why crime figures are likely to be nonsense and rape a problem.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
04-03-2006, 10:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Well I am not sure he is giving the facts so much as his interpretation of the facts. Let's assume that there are sick and perverted men out there. And let's assume that these sick and perverted men get arosed at the thought of making women afraid, instilling terror and hurting them; that they are rapists in fact. Will they get aroused at the sight of some material? Well perhaps, but it is likely that what really gets them interested is the thought of imposing their power on a helpless woman - revenge for whatever psychological problems they have with women in general. They want to humiliate and scare in order to feel big and powerful. A covered woman might excite them even more because she will be even more humiliated if she is chaste (or even better virginial) and pious.

The world is full of sick people you know. It is not as simple as you make out.
Yes, but those kind of men are rare. I think the majority of rape incidents happen because of other reasons. And as for those really sick men you mentioned, they may be more reluctant to go on the prowl if the punishment was as severe as, let us say, death? Think about it, isn't really worth it if you're likely to die afterwards is it? And the world is not a simple place indeed. But I was talking about decreasing the rate of rape, stopping it all together is something else.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-03-2006, 10:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
I keep seeing people quote rape statistics to try and back up their opinion that covering up reduces rape. I say rubbish.
Yes i realised u say that quite sum time ago LOL LOL LOL ;D ;D

:peace: PEACE
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
04-03-2006, 10:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Perhaps we should ask if this applies across the board in Islam. One day I want to own a nice shiny car. I used to think a BMW but now I think perhaps a top model Lexus. With a nice clean shiny interior set with real wood perhaps. Certainly leather seats. And a DVD player with more speakers than you would think possible. So if I had such a car and I parked this on the street would it be my fault if someone saw it, envied it and stole it?
What? Are you agreeing with us?:?
Reply

HeiGou
04-03-2006, 10:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Perhaps we should ask if this applies across the board in Islam. One day I want to own a nice shiny car. I used to think a BMW but now I think perhaps a top model Lexus. With a nice clean shiny interior set with real wood perhaps. Certainly leather seats. And a DVD player with more speakers than you would think possible. So if I had such a car and I parked this on the street would it be my fault if someone saw it, envied it and stole it?
What? Are you agreeing with us?:?
I often agree with you. Or try.

But not in this case I suspect. You really think that if I park my car outside and allow others to see it, it is my fault if they steal it? Is this Islamic?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
04-03-2006, 10:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
*takes a deep breath* I have to say one thing. If anyone doesnt like it then tough! As some who has seen numerous Indian films... they always showed that villains would see a pretty girl (walking alone wiggling hips n all) and get turned on by the sight of exposed flesh. They'd then chase the poor girl and rape her. Free sex. No winding & dining needed, just do the deed and off you go. I think this is why some men assume that a woman who isn't covered up is asking for it.

I've also noted that in countries where dating/sex before marriage is forbidden, men rape out of lust alone. Power/hate of women are not the issues there. They are just frustrated, not married, probably can't afford prostitues or there arent any available and so take their frustrations out on women or animals and some even practice homosexuality until they are married. Fact!

In the west most rapes happen for a number of reasons e.g. being high on drink & drugs, maybe even including the influence of pornography, desire for power and control over a victim, out of hostility, aggression and anger (hatred of a woman/women) to achieve dominance and self-validation through the humiliation and degradation of another, or maybe just because a sicko cannot get a women and has to rape one to satisfy his lust.

What ever the reasons are. No woman is asking to be raped. Not even if she is naked as the day she was born. But I think that a man raping out of lust alone, is more likely to target a woman in a mini-skirt than one who is covered up. Not because she asked for it, but because her being exposed adds to the visual excitement of the rapist.

With men like that around it is safer to cover up. :)
So true... BARAK-ALLAHU FEEKI!
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
04-03-2006, 11:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I often agree with you. Or try.

But not in this case I suspect. You really think that if I park my car outside and allow others to see it, it is my fault if they steal it? Is this Islamic?
Lol yeah, and it surprises me each time:okay:.
I see what you're trying to say now. LOL. How is a woman anything like a car????????
No it isn't your fault, but if it's a rough neighbourhood then you're a little dim for parking it there;).
I would've though a woman's body, integrity and safety meant more to her than some stupid material posession so she should try to protect it more.
Reply

Cheb
04-03-2006, 11:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Now compare this with the statistics on rape. First of all, the Saudis are in the West and so have a proper system of crime reporting - that is, if not a competent one at least the same one that Western rape figures are reported in. Second there is no bias that can be detected here: police do not know which car is Saudi or not. There is no incentive to not report because of national sensitivity. There are no honor killings associated with parking tickets. All of which suggests that reporting might be higher. Thirdly the whole system of diplomatic parking fines is vountary - they cannot be enforced as diplomats have diplomatic immunity. It reflects whether or not the diplomats have internalised the values of the criminal justice system, whether they do not do something because they know it is wrong as opposed to whether or not they do not do something because they will be executed or whatever. And how do Muslims do?



The Muslim countries of the world are grossly disproportionately represented at the top end of these figures. European countries are disproportionately represented at the bottom on thesse figures. And this is despite the fact that countries like Morocco and Nigeria are likely to have few diplomats in comparision with, say, Germany. What this proves is that the rulers of these Muslim countries have not internalised the values of the criminal justice system. They obey the law because they are afraid of punishment, not because they know it is wrong. Take that fear of punishment away, as in here by granting diplomatic immunity, and they break the law without any shame at all. If this extends to their communities as a whole, and clearly it does in Nigeria, then you would understand why crime figures are likely to be nonsense and rape a problem.
All what you have written is a matter of opinion. I have stated that those numbers can be used as evidence. Which means that if this case was to go to court, I would use that as evidence. ;)
No it does not prove that what we are saying is true. And it will take a much more concentrated survey to know for sure whether or not wearing Hijab does reduce rape. However that will likely never be done and this matter will remain as a matter of opinion.
Reply

irsha
04-03-2006, 12:45 PM
If you place such faith in that site, have a look at how disproportionate the level of corruption is in muslim countries? Makes you wonder about the figures they want us to see!
Anyway, this is an orchestrated attempt at diversion practiced by some members here that I have seen practice it before. The issue is whether a woman should ever have to be on trial for the way she acted when she is raped.
I have found that many muslims have a particular way of dealing with arguments they can't win.
* say thats unislamic (even when musims do it)
* say they don't trust your sources (notice how quickly that was tried here, till the source was revealed)
* avoid the issue and try and change the subject
* Try and twist non muslims words, then argue about that till the thread no longer resembles the original
* go on the attack and say- yes but what about Iraq, or this or that
* insult the non muslim poster
* twist the facts to fit the theory
* If all else fails- BLAME THE CRUSADES
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
04-03-2006, 01:00 PM
So... you think just because a Muslim does something that makes it islamic?
I'm sorry... but why isn't christianity put in this position?
Reply

Umu 'Isa
04-03-2006, 01:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
* say thats unislamic (even when musims do it)
someone has said this before on the forums somewhere...
Islam is perfect, muslims are not
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-03-2006, 01:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam
someone has said this before on the forums somewhere...
ye dat was me ;D and im sure a lot of other broz/sis's hav stated this obvious fact before.

:sl:
Reply

irsha
04-03-2006, 01:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
So... you think just because a Muslim does something that makes it islamic?
I'm sorry... but why isn't christianity put in this position?
Did you get the threads mixed up?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
04-03-2006, 01:21 PM
no... im qouting what you said "* say thats unislamic (even when musims do it)"
Reply

irsha
04-03-2006, 01:28 PM
sorry, I cant remember that bit, I thought you were talking about my "Islamics" comment.
But as to your point, we are on a muslims site, thats why I dont say the same about Christians here. Of course Christians do wrong things, but it seems to be muslims who mostly are doing it while yelling Alluha akbar (I think thats how its spelled) Or doing it in Allah's name.
Reply

Umu 'Isa
04-03-2006, 01:32 PM
I've never heard of anyone yelling, "Allahu Akbar" whilst raping someone (astaghfirullah!).. After all isnt rape what we're supposed to be talking about.

we can talk about people yelling, "Allahu Akbar" whilst doing something else, like killing the occupants of their country but thats another topic.. :)
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
04-03-2006, 01:35 PM
you said it in the post above where i mentioned it:).
Reply

aamirsaab
04-03-2006, 01:36 PM
:sl:
Irsha, you are making overgeneralisations: only a minority of muslims do as you are saying. Many of them just get on with their lives. Like moi.

Rape isn't correlated with religion. Victims maybe.
Reply

irsha
04-03-2006, 01:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam
I've never heard of anyone yelling, "Allahu Akbar" whilst raping someone (astaghfirullah!).. After all isnt rape what we're supposed to be talking about.

we can talk about people yelling, "Allahu Akbar" whilst doing something else, like killing the occupants of their country but thats another topic.. :)
Yeah? well do a search on Australian gang rapes.
Reply

irsha
04-03-2006, 01:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
Irsha, you are making overgeneralisations: only a minority of muslims do as you are saying. Many of them just get on with their lives. Like moi.

Rape isn't correlated with religion. Victims maybe.
I am sorry if I gave that impression, I know most muslims just want to get on with their lives, but the point is, many muslims seem to be able to justify what they are doing by thinking they are following Islam, and when people say they are not following Islam, increasing numbers of them who do these things, say that they are.
Reply

irsha
04-03-2006, 01:41 PM
Anyway, I think we have covered this topic, I hope most people now agree that it is wrong to make a woman justify anything if she gets raped.
Reply

Umu 'Isa
04-03-2006, 01:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
Yeah? well do a search on Australian gang rapes.
are you talking about the lebanese gang rapes in 2000? They never mentioned God's name! source although this was horrible and they said some sickening things... i am 3rd generation australian so this offends me greatly.. but i dont blame islam?
Reply

hamzaa
04-03-2006, 02:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam

we can talk about people yelling, "Allahu Akbar" whilst doing something else, like killing the occupants of their country but thats another topic.. :)

salaam, which occupants did you have in mind........?
Reply

Umu 'Isa
04-03-2006, 02:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by hamzaa
salaam, which occupants did you have in mind........?
it was just an example.. but theres always the israeli occupants of palestine...?
Reply

hamzaa
04-03-2006, 02:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha

Of course Christians do wrong things, but it seems to be muslims who mostly are doing it while yelling Alluha akbar (I think thats how its spelled) Or doing it in Allah's name.

Peace, dear oh dear.......
Reply

hamzaa
04-03-2006, 02:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam
it was just an example.. but theres always the israeli occupants of palestine...?
salaam, indeed and the rest....
Reply

Cheb
04-03-2006, 03:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
If you place such faith in that site, have a look at how disproportionate the level of corruption is in muslim countries? Makes you wonder about the figures they want us to see!
Anyway, this is an orchestrated attempt at diversion practiced by some members here that I have seen practice it before. The issue is whether a woman should ever have to be on trial for the way she acted when she is raped.
I assume you are talking about me. If you are, please address your comment directly to me to avoid confusion.
When I posted those statistics, they were a direct reply to Lush's request. You can accept or reject it, that is your choice. The issue when I joined was whether or not wearing modest clothes decreases rape, where was the diversion?
Well to address the 'real' issue, when a woman is raped, they do not simply take her word for it and punish the accused person. Rather, they put him on trial and a case is built against him in which all circumstances that lead to the rape are examined and put forth to the court. This is done all over the world not just Islamic countries. Since this is such a serious allegation, all circumstances must be taken into account in order to determine whether or not the sex was consensual or forced. If the woman was raped, there must be some kind of proof that she was actually raped. Think about it, some women do actually have certain things to gain from such accusations and may be dishonest. If a person is to be sentenced to death or given any other harsh punishment, there must be no reasonable doubt that he is guilty.

With all due respect, I will ignore the rest of your post.
Reply

HeiGou
04-03-2006, 03:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
Lol yeah, and it surprises me each time:okay:.
I see what you're trying to say now. LOL. How is a woman anything like a car????????
Well cars need a lot of maintanence but on the other hand they don't talk back^H^H^H^HWhops, I mean, they are nothing alike at all.

No it isn't your fault, but if it's a rough neighbourhood then you're a little dim for parking it there;).
But the blame lies entirely with the criminals right? None with me at all?

I would've though a woman's body, integrity and safety meant more to her than some stupid material posession so she should try to protect it more.
Perhaps. If that is what wearing the hijab does. Of course that logic leads to women never leaving the house.
Reply

HeiGou
04-03-2006, 03:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
All what you have written is a matter of opinion.
Well not really. It is an educated guess about what is going through the mind of those diplomats, but it is not opinion.

I have stated that those numbers can be used as evidence. Which means that if this case was to go to court, I would use that as evidence. ;)
Which numbers? If I were a defense lawyer with nothing else to use, yes, I might use them too.

No it does not prove that what we are saying is true. And it will take a much more concentrated survey to know for sure whether or not wearing Hijab does reduce rape. However that will likely never be done and this matter will remain as a matter of opinion.
True except that I expect that as Muslim countries get richer and women become more and more educated, they will speak out more. I expect that for the rest of your life you will be hearing about how badly hijab works as a means of rape prevention.
Reply

HeiGou
04-03-2006, 04:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam
are you talking about the lebanese gang rapes in 2000? They never mentioned God's name! source although this was horrible and they said some sickening things... i am 3rd generation australian so this offends me greatly.. but i dont blame islam?
From your own source "During the trial the text messages of one of the offenders, Bilal Skaf, were disclosed as containing sentiments such as "When you are feeling down ... bash a Christian or Catholic and lift up"."

It seems there was a little bit of a religious context, don't you think?

Some of the gang rapists have tried to use their Islamic culture as a defence.

And on top of it all everyone has this problem in the West now. Blacks are rioting over gang rapes in Birmingham, the French have gang rapes, so do the Norwegians and Swedes, Australia has them as well. There is one thing linking all these cases. Care to guess what it is? No? Not anything to do with the rapists religion perhaps? It may not be Islamic I will grant you, but there is a problem here with Muslim boys.
Reply

Lush
04-03-2006, 05:38 PM
Rather, they put him on trial and a case is built against him in which all circumstances that lead to the rape are examined and put forth to the court.
Cheb, actually, most rape cases don't go to trial. They don't go to trial in the U.S.A., and I'm sure that even in Jordan they rarely see the inside of a court room (and I can only speak for Jordan here). What happens is that if there is overwhelming evidence against the accused, particularly DNA evidence (in this day and age, we're not talking about thirty years ago, obviously), he pleads guilty and does his time. A battered woman, with vaginal tearing, AND your DNA on her, makes a strong-enough case so that no sane lawyer would ever urge a trial. Case closed. No "circumstances that lead to the rape," and certainly no discussion of the way the woman acted, dressed, etc.

That's the beauty of science.
Reply

Lush
04-03-2006, 05:39 PM
are you talking about the lebanese gang rapes in 2000? They never mentioned God's name! source although this was horrible and they said some sickening things... i am 3rd generation australian so this offends me greatly.. but i dont blame islam?
Well, obviously, we should not blame Islam.

But we should examine the superior attitude that was instilled in these men. The attitude that allowed them to act in this manner.
Reply

Cheb
04-03-2006, 06:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lush
Cheb, actually, most rape cases don't go to trial. They don't go to trial in the U.S.A., and I'm sure that even in Jordan they rarely see the inside of a court room (and I can only speak for Jordan here). What happens is that if there is overwhelming evidence against the accused, particularly DNA evidence (in this day and age, we're not talking about thirty years ago, obviously), he pleads guilty and does his time. A battered woman, with vaginal tearing, AND your DNA on her, makes a strong-enough case so that no sane lawyer would ever urge a trial. Case closed. No "circumstances that lead to the rape," and certainly no discussion of the way the woman acted, dressed, etc.

That's the beauty of science.
But I never said science should not be used, by all means why not. If there is circumstantial evidence that a rape has taken place, then one should be sentenced accordingly. If a man pleads guilty then that saves time and effort and there is no need for a trial. However, the evidence is not always as apparent as you stated. It is not always that easy. For example if it comes down to her word against his, and there is no physical evidence nor any evidence of a break in, then the case will go to court and the circumstances that led to the rape will be taken into account. I was not really talking about the open and shut cases.
Reply

Cheb
04-03-2006, 06:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lush
Well, obviously, we should not blame Islam.

But we should examine the superior attitude that was instilled in these men. The attitude that allowed them to act in this manner.
Who/what has instilled this attitude in them?
Reply

Skillganon
04-03-2006, 07:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
It may not be Islamic I will grant you, but there is a problem here with Muslim boys.
Let's do a word substitution.

It may not be Atheistic I will grant you, but there is a problem here with atheist boys.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-03-2006, 08:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
Anyway, I think we have covered this topic
I agree that this thread has run its course and has gotten way off-topic.

Peace.

:threadclo
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-11-2014, 06:43 AM
  2. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-27-2009, 07:52 PM
  3. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 05-14-2009, 12:03 PM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-01-2006, 09:37 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!