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Cheb
03-31-2006, 02:35 PM
British human shield critically hurt
BEN LYNFIELD IN JERUSALEM



A YOUNG British activist serving in Gaza as a human shield for Palestinian civilians was in a critical condition last night after being shot in the head by an Israeli soldier.

Thomas Hurndall, thought to be in his early 20s and possibly from the Manchester area, was believed to be brain dead but still breathing, according to the International Solidarity Movement (ISM).

Nicholas Dure, 19, from Dundee, an ISM volunteer in Rafah, told The Scotsman the young Briton had arrived five days ago.

Ghassan Andoni, an ISM founder, said Mr Hurndall was among volunteers who had hoped to place a tent as a kind of shield in front of a mosque in Rafah, in the Gaza Strip, so people could pray free from the threat of Israeli gunfire.

Mr Dure said that when the volunteers got to the site, however, they found "a tank was shooting at people" and they decided to leave.

He said his colleague "saw some children and a woman in the area who could have been shot. He went towards them along with an Italian volunteer and someone picked him off in the head. He was trying to shield them and get them out of the way."

Dr Jihad Abu Daya, who treated Mr Hurndall at the European Hospital in Khan Yunis, said he required surgery that could not be performed in Gaza.

"We stopped the bleeding by compression, and gave him fluid and blood. His life is in danger and he needs surgical intervention"

Mr Abu Daya said the Briton had multiple fractures in the skull. "The bullet went in from the side of his head and out the back of the head," he said. Mr Hurndall is scheduled to be transferred to another hospital.

Military sources said the incident was under investigation. They said soldiers in the Rafah camp reported shooting dead a Palestinian gunman in uniform who had opened fire on their outpost at about the same time Mr Hurndall was killed.

However, Palestinian security sources and hospital officials said they knew of no Palestinian casualties in Rafah yesterday.

It was the second time in a week that a foreigner volunteering on behalf of the Palestinians has been seriously wounded by army gunfire. A month ago, an Israeli army bulldozer driver killed Rachel Corey, 23, a US university student who was blocking the vehicle from demolishing a home in Rafah.

Tom Wallace of the IMS said the incident happened in a residential area, and children had come to watch the activists’ protest, as they often did.

He said shots were being fired over the protesters’ heads from one of two Israeli watch-towers nearby. "The activists and all the women and kids decided to move away from the area," Mr Wallace said.

"They were moving very slowly, and he was standing in front of the women and kids to protect them while they were moving. They were trying to evacuate the area and that is when he was shot.

"This is a residential area - there’s nothing but kids and women at this time," Mr Wallace said.

"As the activists walk around, kids like to follow them. They were climbing all over the roadblocks and the activists decided that it was best to leave."

Rafah is the site of a massive house demolition campaign by the Israeli army and houses Palestinian fighters grouped into an alliance called the Popular Resistance Committee.

A Foreign Office spokeswoman said last night that Mr Hurndall’s family had been informed.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=425372003
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Eric H
03-31-2006, 06:42 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Cheb,

Thank you for bringing the story of Thomas Hurndall to the forum, his story poses many questions for me.

It could be argued that he was a fool to be there like Norman Kember was supposedly a fool to be in Iraq and get himself kidnapped.

You could say what is the point of an unarmed man standing openly in a place were there is gunfire, isn’t he being stupid?

What can an unarmed human shield hope to achieve?

Is the price of death worth paying for the privilege of being a human shield?

But maybe there is another way to look at this by asking when the time comes to stand before God, who will have the easier time, the gunman or the victim?

In the spirit of seeking justice for the oppressed

Eric
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Muezzin
03-31-2006, 07:13 PM
Peace be upon all peace activists.

That said, acting as a human shield is not what I'd call the first port of call.
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mahdisoldier19
03-31-2006, 07:58 PM
To get this publicity to understand the psycoticness of the israeli soldiers. In answeto Eric H how Israeli shoot and kill unarmed civilians
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Eric H
03-31-2006, 08:48 PM
Greetings and peace Muezzin;
Peace be upon all peace activists.

That said, acting as a human shield is not what I'd call the first port of call
The rules for war are probably easier to understand, you shoot the other guy first.

The rules for peace are much tougher to understand, you have two sides with guns who have a grievance against each other, how do you bring them together.

Israel and Palestine both perceive they have right on their side, and there are war mongers on both sides.

It seems some very brave people are willing to risk their lives for peace, but what other options are available to peace keepers?

In the spirit of seeking justice for the oppressed

Eric
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afriend
03-31-2006, 08:54 PM
This is so saddening....

I can't believe how quickly they make up an excuse, instead of accepting and owning up to their bad behaviour.
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Cheb
03-31-2006, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you Cheb,

Thank you for bringing the story of Thomas Hurndall to the forum, his story poses many questions for me.

It could be argued that he was a fool to be there like Norman Kember was supposedly a fool to be in Iraq and get himself kidnapped.

You could say what is the point of an unarmed man standing openly in a place were there is gunfire, isn’t he being stupid?

What can an unarmed human shield hope to achieve?

Is the price of death worth paying for the privilege of being a human shield?

But maybe there is another way to look at this by asking when the time comes to stand before God, who will have the easier time, the gunman or the victim?

In the spirit of seeking justice for the oppressed

Eric
Greeting Eric and thanks for the post.
The way I think of it is, if there was a way someone like him wanted to die, I assume this would be it.
Unfortunately this won’t stop the Israelis from the atrocities they commit. So long as they have all that power, they will abuse it.

This is the story of the other activist mentioned in the article, Rachel Corrie, who was killed by an Israeli Bulldozer.

http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?Do...&CategoryId=23
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Eric H
03-31-2006, 08:57 PM
Greetings and peace mahdisoldier19;
to get this publicity to understand the psycoticness of the israeli soldiers. In answeto Eric H how Israeli shoot and kill unarmed civilians
I suppose if you look at this in another way, the Israeli army can shoot hundreds of Palestinians with out too many repercussions, but if they shoot one American or European questions are asked.

In the spirit of praying for unarmed peace activists

Eric
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knuckles
03-31-2006, 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by Cheb
Greeting Eric and thanks for the post.
The way I think of it is, if there was a way someone like him wanted to die, I assume this would be it.
Unfortunately this won’t stop the Israelis from the atrocities they commit. So long as they have all that power, they will abuse it.

This is the story of the other activist mentioned in the article, Rachel Corrie, who was killed by an Israeli Bulldozer.

http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?Do...&CategoryId=23
Rachel Corrie was an idiot enough said
Reply

afriend
03-31-2006, 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by knuckles
Rachel Corrie was an idiot enough said
LOL :giggling: ;D

Ur so Cruel...But hilarious!

But do u think it was a good thing to do, by killing som1 like that?
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Ghazi
03-31-2006, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by knuckles
Rachel Corrie was an idiot enough said
Salaam

I'll introduce you to a islamic principle, we don't backbite or slander people behind their backs.
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afriend
03-31-2006, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

I'll introduce you to a islamic principle, we don't backbite or slander people behind their backs.
*clears throat*

That's right, especially not about someone who has passed away...
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knuckles
03-31-2006, 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by Iqram
LOL :giggling: ;D

Ur so Cruel...But hilarious!

But do u think it was a good thing to do, by killing som1 like that?
Who said it was intentional? Have you been in a bulldozer? You don't have a very good line of sight. Add to that it was modified to protect the driver from sniper fire then you have a woman standing in front of a loud bulldozer
that can't see at least 10 feet in front of it.
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Cheb
03-31-2006, 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by knuckles
Rachel Corrie was an idiot enough said
Wise words.
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knuckles
03-31-2006, 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

I'll introduce you to a islamic principle, we don't backbite or slander people behind their backs.
Kinda hard to say it to a dead persons face.
Reply

Ghazi
03-31-2006, 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by knuckles
Kinda hard to say it to a dead persons face.
Salaam

Doesn't matter to a muslim
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afriend
03-31-2006, 10:11 PM
Well, i suppose u cud leave the dead person out of it.... eh?
Reply

azim
03-31-2006, 10:55 PM
Originally Posted by knuckles
Rachel Corrie was an idiot enough said
Knuckles - you're so cool and shocking. You don't care what people think. You're such a rebel! Why, you should make a blog and write all your amazing views on their about how people are idiots and your so clever!

GO KNUCKLES!

GO KNUCKLES!

GO KNUCKLES!

Infact, I think I might start my own 'Knuckles Fan Group'. PM me with your email if your interested. Every week we'll send Knuckles amazing words of wisdom about how dead people are stupid (I guess if they're dead, they can't be all that clever LOL!!!!!!!1111one).
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Malsidabym
04-01-2006, 02:27 AM
In all truthfulness though, without trying to be callous, it doesn't seem like the wisest activity to engage in. Injecting oneself into a military confrontation as a civilian that is. I don't know about the rest of you, but I feel it is better to stand behind the people holding guns rather than in front of them.
If evolution were true, this is what we would call "natural selection".
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azim
04-01-2006, 09:10 AM
Originally Posted by Malsidabym
In all truthfulness though, without trying to be callous, it doesn't seem like the wisest activity to engage in. Injecting oneself into a military confrontation as a civilian that is. I don't know about the rest of you, but I feel it is better to stand behind the people holding guns rather than in front of them.
If evolution were true, this is what we would call "natural selection".
Humanity is based on compassion for others, selfless sacrifice and taking risks in the way of good.

If you were a person in such a situation as the Palestinians - you would pray earnestly that those who are in a position of power have compassion for them, make sacrifices and take risks to benefit them - out of love for humanity.

It is sad you do not believe in the ideals that distinguish mankind as 'evolved' creatures.
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afriend
04-01-2006, 09:13 AM
If evolution were true, this is what we would call "natural selection".
LOL

True said.
Reply

Malsidabym
04-01-2006, 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by azim
Humanity is based on compassion for others, selfless sacrifice and taking risks in the way of good.

If you were a person in such a situation as the Palestinians - you would pray earnestly that those who are in a position of power have compassion for them, make sacrifices and take risks to benefit them - out of love for humanity.

It is sad you do not believe in the ideals that distinguish mankind as 'evolved' creatures.
I am sorry brother that you have misunderstood me. I am not sure how you extracted that I don't believe in said ideals, I merely was pointing out that it is not wise to confront those with guns.
Peace.
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Cheb
04-01-2006, 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by Malsidabym
I am sorry brother that you have misunderstood me. I am not sure how you extracted that I don't believe in said ideals, I merely was pointing out that it is not wise to confront those with guns.
Peace.
But it would be wise to look past that.
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HeiGou
04-01-2006, 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by Cheb
I am sorry brother that you have misunderstood me. I am not sure how you extracted that I don't believe in said ideals, I merely was pointing out that it is not wise to confront those with guns.
But it would be wise to look past that.
You think? I think it would be brave to confront those with guns, but I also think that it would be foolish. What annoys me is the concern for Corrie compared to the indifference to all the Palestinian victims - presumably she knew that and was willing to risk it.

However no one has clear and well thought out positions on these issues. Look at the hostility expressed towards Professor Kimber who was trying something similar in Iraq. Would Corrie's death have meant les if she wanted to convert people to Christianity?
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Cheb
04-01-2006, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
You think? I think it would be brave to confront those with guns, but I also think that it would be foolish. What annoys me is the concern for Corrie compared to the indifference to all the Palestinian victims - presumably she knew that and was willing to risk it.
Well whos fault is that. This is the world we live in. You are correct though.

Originally Posted by HeiGou
However no one has clear and well thought out positions on these issues. Look at the hostility expressed towards Professor Kimber who was trying something similar in Iraq. Would Corrie's death have meant les if she wanted to convert people to Christianity?
Maybe. It really does depend on what the intentions are.
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Muezzin
04-01-2006, 03:54 PM
Kember was an innocent man. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time, whether he was a missionary or not is irrelevant - he's still a human being.

The subject of the article was also an innocent person. Though I don't agree with using oneself as a human shield, I see the nobility and bravery in such gestures. I think a better approach would be to help out off the battlefield, since deliberately entering one unarmed, while ballsy, is also a grotesquely high risk situation which can easily be avoided.
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Eric H
04-01-2006, 07:33 PM
Greetings and peace to you all,

Ok we have had a number of posts questioning the sanity of human shields, but do you think that human shields can achieve any good?

In the spirit of seeking justice for the oppressed

Eric
Reply

afriend
04-01-2006, 07:48 PM
Im sure that human sheilds can make a diffrence cos Israelis are scared wen the authoritites of the country the peace activist came from get involved and demand answers, but knowing the Israeli army, they will shoot a DONUT!

"aaakkkk Donut is going to blow itself up, Put on ur hanakas and shoot it with pride"
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Muezzin
04-01-2006, 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace to you all,

Ok we have had a number of posts questioning the sanity of human shields, but do you think that human shields can achieve any good?

In the spirit of seeking justice for the oppressed

Eric
Yeah, they could achieve good. It could be seen as a noble gesture depending on the circumstances.

But I'm too cynical to want to run unarmed into a battlefield hoping for everyone to stop shooting. :)
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Malsidabym
04-02-2006, 05:58 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Yeah, they could achieve good. It could be seen as a noble gesture depending on the circumstances.

But I'm too cynical to want to run unarmed into a battlefield hoping for everyone to stop shooting. :)
I would say you are showing some wisdom.
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knuckles
04-03-2006, 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace to you all,

Ok we have had a number of posts questioning the sanity of human shields, but do you think that human shields can achieve any good?

In the spirit of seeking justice for the oppressed

Eric
I think it's idiotic and ends with you being dead.
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Cheb
04-03-2006, 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by knuckles
I think it's idiotic and ends with you being dead.
But it does not mean no good was achieved. At least they died for a righteous cause, something that most of us will never achieve.
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knuckles
04-03-2006, 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by Cheb
But it does not mean no good was achieved. At least they died for a righteous cause, something that most of us will never achieve.
We have a saying in the Christian world. The road to Hell is paved in good intentions.
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Cheb
04-03-2006, 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by knuckles
We have a saying in the Christian world. The road to Hell is paved in good intentions.
Do explain?
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knuckles
04-03-2006, 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by Cheb
Do explain?
Just because you have good intentions doesn't mean what you have done was righteous or in God's Will. It could have been in God's Will for Corrie to stay in the US, become a politician, and put pressure on Israel to change it policies but because of free will she chose to go to Gaza and become hamburger.
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Cheb
04-03-2006, 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by knuckles
Just because you have good intentions doesn't mean what you have done was righteous or in God's Will. It could have been in God's Will for Corrie to stay in the US, become a politician, and put pressure on Israel to change it policies but because of free will she chose to go to Gaza and become hamburger.
True. But in the end different perspectives will have different opinions. Maybe she could have become a politician but maybe she would not have accomplished as much. In the end it is God who will judge her and not us.
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knuckles
04-03-2006, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Cheb
True. But in the end different perspectives will have different opinions. Maybe she could have become a politician but maybe she would not have accomplished as much. In the end it is God who will judge her and not us.
What did she accomplish by getting ran over by a bulldozer?
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Cheb
04-03-2006, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by knuckles
What did she accomplish by getting ran over by a bulldozer?
Unfortunately, she got more attention that a 3 year old boy would have. People need to see what is actually going on there. The way she died might not do much but people will likely want to know why she was there in the first place. Opening some peoples eyes would be an accomplishment.
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mahdisoldier19
04-03-2006, 10:18 PM
What did the US Accomplish by Iraq?

Oh thats right over 100k civilians dead and wait

over 2500 US Soldiers dead

And almost on the brink of Civil war BUT!

Lets protect those Oil Wells!
Reply

HeiGou
04-04-2006, 08:01 AM
Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
What did the US Accomplish by Iraq?

Oh thats right over 100k civilians dead and wait

over 2500 US Soldiers dead

And almost on the brink of Civil war BUT!

Lets protect those Oil Wells!
But think what the US could have accomlished in Iraq if things had worked out as the Bush administration wanted - a free, peaceful, prosperous, federal, democratic Iraq that would act as a soruce of economic growth in the region and a beacon of light to democrats elsewhere (especially Saudi Arabia et a). It has not worked out in retrospect, but at the time, do you think it would have seemed a waste of time?
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