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Pankaja dasa
04-02-2006, 07:57 PM
Al Qalam
Surah 68. The Pen, (the Letter) N


39. Or have ye Covenants with Us to oath, reaching to the Day of Judgment, (providing) that ye shall have whatever ye shall demand?

40. Ask thou of them, which of them will stand surety for that!

41. Or have they some "Partners" (in Allah.ead)? Then let them produce their "partners", if they are truthful!


42. The Day that the *shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-

43. Their eyes will be cast down,- ignominy will cover them; seeing that they had been summoned aforetime to bow in adoration, while they were whole, (and had refused).

44. Then leave Me alone with such as reject this Message: by degrees shall We punish them from directions they perceive not.


*Front of leg below knee.

I want to ask here what Muslims or we call you Mohammedians, want to say about this verse. Thankyou
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Maimunah
04-02-2006, 08:00 PM
subhanaallah may allah guide us all:)
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Pankaja dasa
04-03-2006, 10:09 PM
No replies? Don't be scared!
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-04-2006, 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim 108
No replies? Don't be scared!
You would be more likely to get a reply if you explained what exactly about the verse you wish to have clarified.

Also, if you're not a Muslim, as your post seems to indicate, I would suggest that you decide on a new username, and when you have done so you can let me know and I'll be happy to change it for you. Lastly, please be respectful of other members; the correct term for adherents to Islam is Muslim, not 'Mohammedians', the latter is offensive to Muslims.

Regards
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Pankaja dasa
04-04-2006, 03:48 AM
42. The Day that the *shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-

That verse.

You can change name if you like. I'd Prefer use my Real Name which is 'Pankaja dasa'.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-04-2006, 04:05 AM
Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa
You can change name if you like. I'd Prefer use my Real Name which is 'Pankaja dasa'.
Thanks for your cooperation.
42. The Day that the *shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able

That verse.
I understand that, but instead of me simply posting pages and pages of exegesis on this verse and missing your point, I thought it would be better if you clarified specifically what it is that you would like to discuss in this verse and why (helps provide context to the discussion).

Regards
Reply

Muslim Knight
04-04-2006, 07:02 AM
Can you change my name to "Muslim Knight" as well? I'm starting to hate this all small capital thingie.
Reply

Pankaja dasa
04-05-2006, 06:41 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Thanks for your cooperation.

I understand that, but instead of me simply posting pages and pages of exegesis on this verse and missing your point, I thought it would be better if you clarified specifically what it is that you would like to discuss in this verse and why (helps provide context to the discussion).

Regards
I feel the verse is saying God has personal form. Since it uses the word Shin,

Compact Oxford English Dictionary of Current English

shin
• noun 1 the front of the leg below the knee. 2 a cut of beef from the lower part of a cow’s leg.

• verb (shinned, shinning) (shin up/down) climb quickly up or down by gripping with one’s arms and legs.

Only a person is able to have a shin. It clearly says Allah will reveal His Shin. So what do Muslim
shcoler's says about it? I asked one Muslim friend of mine. He couldn't come up with an answer
he said he would ask around.

Sorry about not replying quickly I was waiting for an e-mail, I though I was getting e-mails everytime
somebody replied to threads I was checking out. Handy or what.
Reply

Skillganon
04-05-2006, 03:09 PM
I don't know what the verse is talking about with the shin, need to ask ANSAR for that, but I do know what is definetely not talking about.

41. Or have they some "Partners" (in Allah.ead)? Then let them produce their "partners", if they are truthful!

42. The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-.

43. Their eyes will be cast down,- ignominy will cover them; seeing that they had been summoned aforetime to bow in adoration, while they were whole, (and had refused).

The day that the shin shall be laid bare, is definetely not talking about Allah,
most likely talking about a time where shin of people will be laid bare!

Read the whole Surah, to get an understand.
Reply

Pankaja dasa
04-05-2006, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
to bow in adoration, while they were whole, (and had refused).

The day that the shin shall be laid bare, is definetely not talking about Allah,
most likely talking about a time where shin of people will be laid bare!

Read the whole Surah, to get an understand.
I think I will wait for ansar to reply.;D
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Nawal89
04-05-2006, 03:59 PM
I believe the ayah as how it is. If Allah says he has a shin then he does. Just like in other ayahs he mentions his hands, eyes, and in another hadeeth he mentions that he will put his foot into hell when hell keeps asking for more people. But even though he says all this, we cannot compare these features to ours, because Allah also says that there is nothing like Him.

This is from what I learned
Allahu A'lam
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-05-2006, 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa
The Day that the *shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able
First of all, the verse itself does not attribute the shin (sâq) to God It merely says that on the day of judgement, the shin will be laid bare, which is a common arabic expression for a time of distress. From Ibn Taymiyyah:
To say the least of what took place, I have not found them disagree on anything save the likes of Allah’s statement: “the day a shin shall be exposed”. It is related from Ibn `Abbâs and some others that the intended meaning is “hardship” and that Allah will expose hardship in the Hereafter. Whereas Abû Sa`îd and others considered this verse to be addressing one of Allah’s attributes, as in evident from the hadîth related by Abû Sa`îd in Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim.

There should be no doubt that the apparent meaning of the verse does not indicate that this is an attribute of Allah, since Allah says: “the day a shin shall be exposed” – with shin coming as an indefinite word in an assertive context – and does not say “His shin”.

Since the word “shin” is not made definite by any kind of possessive construct, it cannot be assumed to refer to an attribute of Allah without other evidence showing it to be so. A case like this is not an instance of ta'wil. ta'wil is only where a verse is taken off its readily understood and obvious meaning. (Majmu Al-Fatawa 6/3940)
So some viewed this verse as mentioning a time of distress which is also one of the connotations of the word sâq in arabic. Those who viewed the sâq as an attribute of Allah, did so, not on the basis of this Qur'anic verse, but a hadith. It should be remembered that when we view something as an attribute of Allah, then it is considered beyond human comprehension and bears no likeness to any form conceivable to us. As the Qur'an says there is nothing like God (Qur'an 42:11).

Regards
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Pankaja dasa
04-05-2006, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
First of all, the verse itself does not attribute the shin (sâq) to God It merely says that on the day of judgement, the shin will be laid bare, which is a common arabic expression for a time of distress. From Ibn Taymiyyah:
To say the least of what took place, I have not found them disagree on anything save the likes of Allah’s statement: “the day a shin shall be exposed”. It is related from Ibn `Abbâs and some others that the intended meaning is “hardship” and that Allah will expose hardship in the Hereafter. Whereas Abû Sa`îd and others considered this verse to be addressing one of Allah’s attributes, as in evident from the hadîth related by Abû Sa`îd in Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim.

There should be no doubt that the apparent meaning of the verse does not indicate that this is an attribute of Allah, since Allah says: “the day a shin shall be exposed” – with shin coming as an indefinite word in an assertive context – and does not say “His shin”.

Since the word “shin” is not made definite by any kind of possessive construct, it cannot be assumed to refer to an attribute of Allah without other evidence showing it to be so. A case like this is not an instance of ta'wil. ta'wil is only where a verse is taken off its readily understood and obvious meaning. (Majmu Al-Fatawa 6/3940)
So some viewed this verse as mentioning a time of distress which is also one of the connotations of the word sâq in arabic. Those who viewed the sâq as an attribute of Allah, did so, not on the basis of this Qur'anic verse, but a hadith. It should be remembered that when we view something as an attribute of Allah, then it is considered beyond human comprehension and bears no likeness to any form conceivable to us. As the Qur'an says there is nothing like God (Qur'an 42:11).

Regards
In the context you are saying, I fully understand. But in the same verse it says they shall be summoned to bow in adoration. And next it says 'thier eyes will be cast down. Adoration doesn't mean fear, it means worship.

I feel you are proposing the verse to have a fearful conetation, (forgive my spelling). You say this doesn't mention an attribute, but in the same verse it mentions they will 'bow in adoration'.

41. Or have they some "Partners" (in Allah.ead)? Then let them produce their "partners", if they are truthful!

42. The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-.

43. Their eyes will be cast down,- ignominy will cover them; seeing that they had been summoned aforetime to bow in adoration, while they were whole, (and had refused).
Reply

Pankaja dasa
04-05-2006, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by Nawal89
I believe the ayah as how it is. If Allah says he has a shin then he does. Just like in other ayahs he mentions his hands, eyes, and in another hadeeth he mentions that he will put his foot into hell when hell keeps asking for more people. But even though he says all this, we cannot compare these features to ours, because Allah also says that there is nothing like Him.

This is from what I learned
Allahu A'lam
This is the most intelligent answer. To take the direct meaning of a verse, is best. The indirect meaning always leads to speculations (and don't we love doing that).:hiding:
Reply

Skillganon
04-05-2006, 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa
This is the most intelligent answer. To take the direct meaning of a verse, is best. The indirect meaning always leads to speculations (and don't we love doing that).:hiding:
No, I think you are assuming here, that God has a physical form, or something.
Take it from learned muslims, anwar gave you an answer. That this in no way can be talking about God's shin.

It say's the "day the shin........." (Nothing about the day God's shin).

You are presupposing, with your own belief the meaning of that ayah!

Will you not take heed when someone gives you an answer that it is not as you suppose?
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Pankaja dasa
04-05-2006, 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
No, I think you are assuming here, that God has a physical form, or something.
Take it from learned muslims, anwar gave you an answer. That this in no way can be talking about God's shin.

It say's the "day the shin........." (Nothing about the day God's shin).

You are presupposing, with your own belief the meaning of that ayah!

Will you not take heed when someone gives you an answer that it is not as you suppose?
Well excuse me!:sister:

The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to *bow in adoration,

Bow means what to you?

*Allah
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Skillganon
04-05-2006, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa
Well excuse me!:sister:

The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to *bow in adoration,

Bow means what to you?

*Allah
Let me take it slowly
42. The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, ........

1 .Who's shin? It is not specific.....

Let's take this statment as event. A and B.

A= The Day that the shin shall be laid bare

B= and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-

Event A will be followed by B.

Where their is not indication even A is talking about God's shin (physical form of God, i.e. no mention of God in it!),

Event B is talking about bowing down.

Let me give another example,

EDIT The Day that the sun goes dark, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-

will you say the sun is an attribute of God? You see the first part are talking about at the least an event, and after that event they shall be summoned to bow in adoration to Allah and they will not be able to.

(....and if I wan't to be sacarstic Bow is an weapon to send projectile over a distance.)


Refer Here!
http://www.islamicboard.com/243898-post12.html
Reply

Pankaja dasa
04-05-2006, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
Let me take it slowly
42. The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, ........

1 .Who's shin? It is not specific.....

Let's take this statment as event. A and B.

A= The Day that the shin shall be laid bare

B= and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-

Event A will be followed by B.

Where their is not indication even A is talking about God's shin (physical form of God, i.e. no mention of God in it!),

Event B is talking about bowing down.

Let me give another example,

The Day that the sun goes dark, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-

will you say the sun is an attribute of God?

(....and if I wan't to be sacarstic Bow is an weapon to send projectile over a distance.)


Refer Here!
http://www.islamicboard.com/243898-post12.html

;D ROFL They will be bowing to a shin, for what reason.?
Reply

Skillganon
04-05-2006, 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa
;D ROFL They will be bowing to a shin, for what reason.?
I was exposing the fallacy of the statment, when I put in the sun anology. You think that they will be worshipping the sun.

The verse you state no way can be attributed to God.

Nor it say's they will bow down in adoration over the shin.

You can go on wishfull thinking, and when you are given a perfect answer from answar, you ignore it because it does not fit your bill.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-05-2006, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa
The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to *bow in adoration
It still doesn't reference God. If we use the phrase "when the shin shall be laid bare" in its classical arabic connotation that it refers to a time of distress and hardship where people are running in panic. So the verse would mean, "They day if intense distress, they shall be summoned to bow in adoration" - yes, obviously they are bowing to God but that doesn't influence the first part of the statement.

Regards
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Pankaja dasa
04-05-2006, 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
It still doesn't reference God. If we use the phrase "when the shin shall be laid bare" in its classical arabic connotation that it refers to a time of distress and hardship where people are running in panic. So the verse would mean, "They day if intense distress, they shall be summoned to bow in adoration" - yes, obviously they are bowing to God but that doesn't influence the first part of the statement.

Regards
How will they know whom to Bow to? It says in another Translation, the Prohpets will declare 'it is so'. This is the talking about the Day of Judgement. What will the Prohpets have to go on? To declare it is God?

As I mentioned it's talking about the Day of Judgement. You say when people shall be running in panic. So I think this ties is with your thought about the Day of Judgement. And all Muslims will get a body which is eternal, funny how a normal 'muslim' can acieve an amazing feat. But God cannot poccess a form. But must be very limited in the eyes of Muslims.
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Skillganon
04-05-2006, 08:18 PM
"na tasya pratima asti
(Yajurveda 32:3)

"shudhama poapvidham"
(Yajurveda 40:8)
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dincugur
04-05-2006, 08:45 PM
It is not the shin of Allah, but the shin of every unbelieving person who will be questioned on the Judgement Day. "The shin will be let open" means that everybody whose shin is let open will be under great difficulty.

That is even clearer in the continuation of the passage. The passage most naturally goes on to describe the dire conditions of the unbelievers on the Judgement Day.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-05-2006, 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa
How will they know whom to Bow to?
That day Allah swt will make Himself known (Qur'an 24:25).
And all Muslims will get a body which is eternal, funny how a normal 'muslim' can acieve an amazing feat. But God cannot poccess a form. But must be very limited in the eyes of Muslims.
Flawed reasoning here. God gives the human beings a form. God is too Great to be likened to any of His creations' form. They are two seperate ideas.

Peace
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Pankaja dasa
04-05-2006, 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
That day Allah swt will make Himself known (Qur'an 24:25).

Flawed reasoning here. God gives the human beings a form. God is too Great to be likened to any of His creations' form. They are two seperate ideas.

Peace
No my reasoning is YOU WILL have an eternal form in heaven according to Islam. So why cannot GOD have an ETERNAL form?
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Pankaja dasa
04-05-2006, 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by dincugur
It is not the shin of Allah, but the shin of every unbelieving person who will be questioned on the Judgement Day. "The shin will be let open" means that everybody whose shin is let open will be under great difficulty.

That is even clearer in the continuation of the passage. The passage most naturally goes on to describe the dire conditions of the unbelievers on the Judgement Day.
I'm still not convinced. The culmination of the beliefs of Islam are the finality of the Day of Judgement. This is the final conclusion. How does a Person who has never praised Allah bow in adoration? He will have fear at most. Adoration means somebody who has been a God worshipper all their lives, so this verse is I believe reffering to those people who have worshipped God. So why use the word shin in the context you are saying?
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Pankaja dasa
04-05-2006, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
"na tasya pratima asti
(Yajurveda 32:3)

"shudhama poapvidham"
(Yajurveda 40:8)
I have no clue what they mean, call me a ba 'Hindu':happy:

Please provide the English Translations.!
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Nawal89
04-05-2006, 09:11 PM
Do you people know about the hadeeth..that Allah will come in a form other than his..and he will Say bow to me, and the people will say no, verily you are not as how our lord has described him self..So Allah will expose his shin And they will fall into sujud, and those who were hipocrytes their back will turn as hard as the horn of a cow and they will fall on their faces.
Do any of you know this hadeeth? It is saheeh to the best of my knowledge. If any of you want to i can bring it with the isnad and all.

Alalh says clearly in the Qur'an he has a shin, ,he has eyes, he has hands, and in a hadeeth it came he has a foot. Why do we have to try to change the meaning? This ayah is nothing to be confused of. Take the Qur'an how it is pplz. He says he has these attributes, but he also says that there is nothing like him. Is that so hard to understand?
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Skillganon
04-05-2006, 09:13 PM
na tasya pratima asti
"There is no image of Him."
[Yajurveda 32:3]

"shudhama poapvidham"
"He is bodyless and pure."
[Yajurveda 40:8]

(I am not hindu, if you have slight inclination to think so!)
Reply

Pankaja dasa
04-05-2006, 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
na tasya pratima asti
"There is no image of Him."
[Yajurveda 32:3]

"shudhama poapvidham"
"He is bodyless and pure."
[Yajurveda 40:8]

(I am not hindu, if you have slight inclination to think so!)
You know if a Muslim can have an eternal body in heaven, it means God can too. Bodyless means not a body like yours or mine.
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Pankaja dasa
04-05-2006, 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by Nawal89
Do you people know about the hadeeth..that Allah will come in a form other than his..and he will Say bow to me, and the people will say no, verily you are not as how our lord has described him self..So Allah will expose his shin And they will fall into sujud, and those who were hipocrytes their back will turn as hard as the horn of a cow and they will fall on their faces.
Do any of you know this hadeeth? It is saheeh to the best of my knowledge. If any of you want to i can bring it with the isnad and all.

Alalh says clearly in the Qur'an he has a shin, ,he has eyes, he has hands, and in a hadeeth it came he has a foot. Why do we have to try to change the meaning? This ayah is nothing to be confused of. Take the Qur'an how it is pplz. He says he has these attributes, but he also says that there is nothing like him. Is that so hard to understand?
I read that on an Islamic site, that is why I came here:happy:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-05-2006, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa
So why cannot GOD have an ETERNAL form?
He does. Well, it depends what you mean by 'form', of course. God is nevertheless, an eternal entity beyond the confines of our universe.

:sl: Nawal89,
Yes, the hadith you mentioned is in Bukhari and Muslim, hence the interpretation that it is an attribute of God. But like you mentioned, even with such an interpretation we must still state that it means nothing like that which is conceivable to human beings.

:w:
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Nawal89
04-05-2006, 09:27 PM
We do not say its like human beings..But Allah already mentioned this sifah. That mean it's there but we do not know how it is. And it is definately not like ours.
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Pankaja dasa
04-05-2006, 10:37 PM
Ya-'ayu-halazina 'amanu man-yar-tada min-kum 'an-dinihi fa-sawfa ya'-tillahu bi-qawmin-yu-hibbu-hum wa yuhib-bunahuu 'azillatin 'alal-mu'minina 'a-'izzatin 'alal-Kafirina yujaa-hiduuna fii Sabiilil-laahi wa laa yakhaa-fuuna law-mata laaa'im / Zaalika Fazlul-laahi yu'-tiihi many-yashaaa' / Wallaahu Waasi-'un 'Alim: "O you who believe! If any from among you turn back from his faith, soon Allah will bring a people whom He will love as they will love Him, - humble toward believers, mighty toward unbelievers, striving in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the blame of any blamer. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleases. Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing." (5.54)

This verse in refference to the previous verse that was presented. It shows Allah loves His followers. So I am still of the impression that the word 'shin' taken together with the whole context of the verse (compassion) says, God actually has form. A Personal Form. Above posted it says the Prohphets will reveal 'it to be so'.

..So Allah will expose his shin And they will fall into sujud, and those who were hipocrytes their back will turn as hard as the horn of a cow and they will fall on their faces.
In the translation I saw on the site it says the Prohpets will reveal that Allah is who He says He is. In Vedic Dharma, the shin is usually referred to as the feet. Marks on the imprints of the Personal Form of the Lord. (meaning God is Impersonal and Personal)
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-05-2006, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa
This verse in refference to the previous verse that was presented. It shows Allah loves His followers.
So? What's your point?
So I am still of the impression that the word 'shin' taken together with the whole context of the verse (compassion) says
I can't force you to believe anything but I've clearly explained that the verse itself in no way necessitates such a conclusion.

A Personal Form.
You have ignored the verse of the Qur'an I referenced before (42:11) which states that there is nothing like God. God is like nothing the human mind can conceive. There is no resemblance between the Creator and the creation.
In Vedic Dharma, the shin is usually referred to as the feet. Marks on the imprints of the Personal Form of the Lord. (meaning God is Impersonal and Personal)
For Muslims, the depictions of God by some hindus would be blasphemous as they contradict the Qur'anic statement that there is nothing like God.

Pankaja dasa, I've already explained this multiple times now. If you want to believe in a God that looks like a human being, so be it, but please do not project such views on to the Qur'an when there is clearly no basis for them in Islam.
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Skillganon
04-05-2006, 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa
You know if a Muslim can have an eternal body in heaven, it means God can too. Bodyless means not a body like yours or mine.
You see you are presupposing that "if we can have than God must have it".

The fact is we dont know, but what we do know theire is nothing like unto God he has no image. Get that in you mind.

I don't know why you are speculating, it's not mentioned in our scriptures. Anyway if you are worried, dont be, you will find out!
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vpb
04-05-2006, 11:41 PM
112.1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

112.2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

112.3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

112.4. And there is none like unto Him.

nobody knows what is his form, what kind. How he looks,his form... is beyond our imagination. so we wait till the Day of Judgement :)
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Pankaja dasa
04-06-2006, 06:38 AM
hidden-treasure-of-al-quran.zip (391KB)

Interesting Book. The Question remains for me. It's really unimaginable that God cannot at least take the 'form' of a human being which is Eternal.
Reply

Pankaja dasa
04-06-2006, 06:41 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Pankaja dasa, I've already explained this multiple times now. If you want to believe in a God that looks like a human being, so be it, but please do not project such views on to the Qur'an when there is clearly no basis for them in Islam.
How else would God look like? Are Humans beings so bad? How do you love somebody you cannot see, some abtract light? I am not saying at all God looks like us. He must be most beautiful. And Glorious.


hidden-treasure-of-al-quran.zip
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Zone Maker
08-03-2006, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by Nawal89
I believe the ayah as how it is. If Allah says he has a shin then he does. Just like in other ayahs he mentions his hands, eyes, and in another hadeeth he mentions that he will put his foot into hell when hell keeps asking for more people. But even though he says all this, we cannot compare these features to ours, because Allah also says that there is nothing like Him.

This is from what I learned
Allahu A'lam
:sl:
I don’t know about what you have learned:? . But what I have learned that when Allah said hand it supposed to mean his power and influence, when he said eyes he meant his knowledge and sight, etc. It's like saying to some one give me a hand while what you have meant a help:wasalamex :giggling: . Allah said it this way so that it can suit all times and ages. In other words it has nothing to do with explaining Allah appearance (Allah forgive me). I have also learned that Qur'an should not be allowed to be translated to other languages. For example English is a simple language which cannot handle the Arabic language because it’s a sophisticated language with many rules such as Al-turqem, Naho, etc.

Allahu A3lam
:wasalamex
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- Qatada -
08-03-2006, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa
How else would God look like? Are Humans beings so bad? How do you love somebody you cannot see, some abtract light? I am not saying at all God looks like us. He must be most beautiful. And Glorious.


hidden-treasure-of-al-quran.zip

So you're trying to say that blind people can't fall in love? Because they aren't able to see their lover?

Love can also be through knowing the characteristics of another. And this is how we love Allaah - through Allaah's Names and Attributes.


Only in paradise will the believers be able to see Allaah Almighty.


Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.
Reply

Kidman
08-03-2006, 10:16 PM
You can't see God, If you want to see God, you should either see the whole God (i.e.your eyes should catch the whole God) which means you have limited God,or you should see a part of God (i.e. your eyes has captured a part of Him) which means you have partitioned God.

Both cases are in contradiction with Islamic belief that Allah, Exalted, is
unlimited and has no part and organ. Moreover your belief in seeing God is
in contradiction with clear text of Quran, in which Allah says that:
"Sight cannot catch Him" (Quran 6:103). The verse does not exclude
Hereafter from this rule, therefore it covers everywhere.

He does not change along with the time, or does not occupy
any physical place. Under no circumstances, God changes. There comes
no TIME frame upon him. He has created time, and physical places.

In fact in the Quran and the Prophetic such mytaphorical meanings were
greatly used. For example, Allah describes his Prophets as :

"men of Hands and vision." (38:45)

Most everyone agreed that here 'hands' means power and strength.

Any hadeeth or Quranic verse that says he has physical features, is not referring to him really having physical feature, it is used as metaphorical meanings for our personal understanding of the Quran and for those with knowledge.

Kidman
Reply

Zone Maker
08-06-2006, 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by Kidman
You can't see God, If you want to see God, you should either see the whole God (i.e.your eyes should catch the whole God) which means you have limited God,or you should see a part of God (i.e. your eyes has captured a part of Him) which means you have partitioned God.

Both cases are in contradiction with Islamic belief that Allah, Exalted, is
unlimited and has no part and organ. Moreover your belief in seeing God is
in contradiction with clear text of Quran, in which Allah says that:
"Sight cannot catch Him" (Quran 6:103). The verse does not exclude
Hereafter from this rule, therefore it covers everywhere.

He does not change along with the time, or does not occupy
any physical place. Under no circumstances, God changes. There comes
no TIME frame upon him. He has created time, and physical places.

In fact in the Quran and the Prophetic such mytaphorical meanings were
greatly used. For example, Allah describes his Prophets as :

"men of Hands and vision." (38:45)

Most everyone agreed that here 'hands' means power and strength.

Any hadeeth or Quranic verse that says he has physical features, is not referring to him really having physical feature, it is used as metaphorical meanings for our personal understanding of the Quran and for those with knowledge.

Kidman
:sl:
An intelligent post and I have to agree.
:awesome:
Reply

Kidman
08-07-2006, 06:13 PM
Thanks :)
Reply

Nawal89
08-10-2006, 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Skakeen
:sl:
I don’t know about what you have learned:? . But what I have learned that when Allah said hand it supposed to mean his power and influence, when he said eyes he meant his knowledge and sight, etc. It's like saying to some one give me a hand while what you have meant a help:wasalamex :giggling: . Allah said it this way so that it can suit all times and ages. In other words it has nothing to do with explaining Allah appearance (Allah forgive me). I have also learned that Qur'an should not be allowed to be translated to other languages. For example English is a simple language which cannot handle the Arabic language because it’s a sophisticated language with many rules such as Al-turqem, Naho, etc.

Allahu A3lam
:wasalamex
You should read ibn taymiyyahs book aqeedatul waasitiyyah, it'll clear you up a bit about why we cant say that the word "Hands" means "Power". Oh read ibn uthaimeens sharh for it. Even better.
Reply

Kidman
08-10-2006, 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by Nawal89
You should read ibn taymiyyahs book aqeedatul waasitiyyah, it'll clear you up a bit about why we cant say that the word "Hands" means "Power". Oh read ibn uthaimeens sharh for it. Even better.
No, you can say the word "Hands" means "Power". You seriously think it is talking about Allah's physical hands??? Come on now. read my post

Kidman
Reply

Nawal89
08-10-2006, 02:37 PM
^yes. I believe that Allah has hands like how he mentioned in teh Qur'an. And fingers too, like how he mentioned in the hadeeth : On the day of Judgement Allah will put the skys on a finger, the earths on a finger, the trees on a finger, the mountias on a finger, and the seas on a finger, then he will say who is the king? who is the ruler today?

I believe on taking the hadeeth by the Lafdh, meaning how it came on is apparent meaning unless anohter hadeeth or ayah explains it in a different way.

Same applies to the hadeeth: On the day of Judgement the hellfire will keep asking for more people until Allah jalla jalaaluh puts his foot into it and the fire will cry "stop stop"

I believe if Allah says he has hand then he has a hand, if he has eyes then he has eyes. Its just nothing like ours because Allah azzawajal also says "there is nothing like him"

wassalam.
Reply

- Qatada -
08-10-2006, 02:40 PM
:salamext:


Yeah - the attributes and descriptions of Allaah Almighty mentioned in the Qur'an and Authentic ahadith are real. It's not metaphors i.e. Hands = power, but it really is Allaah Almighty's Hand, it's just not like any of the creations.


Allaah Almighty knows best.


:wasalamex
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
08-10-2006, 02:41 PM
:sl:

If Allah says He has hands, we affirm it too. We dont try to interpret that or try to imagine them. Same for any other feature has talked about, i.e eyes etc.

It is not for us to imagine how they are. They are nothing like ours. As Allah says that there is nothing like him.

:w:
Reply

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