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FatimaAsSideqah
04-04-2006, 11:43 PM
as-salaam alaykum

Modern earth sciences have proven that mountains have deep roots under the surface of the ground and that these roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground.2 So the most suitable word to describe mountains on the basis of this information is the word ‘peg,’ since most of a properly set peg is hidden under the surface of the ground. The history of science tells us that the theory of mountains having deep roots was introduced only in the latter half of the nineteenth century.

Mountains also play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth.4 They hinder the shaking of the earth. God has said in the Quran:

And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you... (Quran, 16:15)

Likewise, the modern theory of plate tectonics holds that mountains work as stabilizers for the earth. This knowledge about the role of mountains as stabilizers for the earth has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960’s.

Could anyone during the time of the Prophet Muhammad have known of the true shape of mountains? Could anyone imagine that the solid massive mountain which he sees before him actually extends deep into the earth and has a root, as scientists assert? A large number of books of geology, when discussing mountains, only describe that part which is above the surface of the earth. This is because these books were not written by specialists in geology. However, modern geology has confirmed the truth of the Quranic verses.

wa-salaam alaykum
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FatimaAsSideqah
04-04-2006, 11:44 PM
as-salaam alaykum

The Quran on Fly
O men! Here is a parable set forth! Listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah(God), you call, can not Create even a fly, if they all met together for the purpose! And if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition}. [22:73]Holy Qur'an

It is a Qur'anic description. If the fly should snatch some food no one would know how to recover it from it (the fly). According to modern scientific discoveries, the fly might have discharged some gas which would bring the .food into change, which no one can redeem.
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FatimaAsSideqah
04-04-2006, 11:45 PM
as-salaam alaykum

The Quran on the fingertip

Does man (a disbeliever) think that We shall not assemble his bones? Yes, We are Able to put together in perfect order the tips of his fingers [75:3,4] Holy Qur'an.

It is amazing miracle, and the story of it; a Man came to the prophet, with a dead bones and ask him O Mohammed do you say that Allah (God) will bring me back to life after i become like this dead Bones. Then Allah (God) reply with a verse in the holy Qur'an, that not only his bones will be back, but the tip of his finger. As we now know that every human has his unique fingerprint.
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FatimaAsSideqah
04-04-2006, 11:46 PM
as-salaam alaykum

The Sun's Resting Place


The notion of "a resting place" for the sun is vividly described in the Holy Qur'an:

And the Sun runs (on course) unto a resting place. That is the Decree of the Exalted in Might, the All Knowing. The Holy Qur'an (36:38)

"Resting place" is the translation of the Arabic word " Mustaqarr" which indicates an exact appointed place and fixed time. According to modern astronomy, the solar system is indeed moving in space at a rate of 12 miles per second towards a point situated in the constellation of Hercules (alpha lyrae) whose exact location has been precisely calculated.

Furthermore, astronomers have named that "Mustaqarr": The Solar Apex.

wa-salaam alaykum
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FatimaAsSideqah
04-04-2006, 11:47 PM
as-salaam alaykum

Iron is a Divine Gift to Humankind

We have sent our Messengers with clear proofs, and sent down with them the Book and Balance, that mankind may observe justice; And We sent down iron, in which is (material for) mighty power, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, unseen, Him and His Messengers, for Allah is full of strength, Exalted in Might.
(The Holy Qur'an, 57:25)


The Holy Qur'an tells us that the iron was sent down to earth. Scientists have, only recently, come to discover the relevant facts about the formation of iron. Geologists believe that the entire energy of our solar system is not sufficient to produce even one atom of iron. Moreover, they state that four times as much energy as that of our solar system would be required to make one atom of iron on the surface of the earth. The geologists thus conclude that iron is an extraterrestrial material that was sent down to earth from some other planet.

Who besides Allah could have such absolute knowledge/done such action, i.e. sending down iron to earth, which excels and encompasses all levels of human knowledge and might?? .!! For sure, no one can claim that.

wa-salaam alaykum
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Skillganon
04-05-2006, 07:44 PM
Hey's sis is that it!, aint theire more?
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sargon
04-06-2006, 09:27 AM
Where are these scientists that say that about iron? I've never hear it before, but I'm no science buff so :P

Very interesting stuff, thanks for the post.
Reply

HeiGou
04-06-2006, 04:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by RighteousLady
Iron is a Divine Gift to Humankind

We have sent our Messengers with clear proofs, and sent down with them the Book and Balance, that mankind may observe justice; And We sent down iron, in which is (material for) mighty power, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, unseen, Him and His Messengers, for Allah is full of strength, Exalted in Might.
(The Holy Qur'an, 57:25)

The Holy Qur'an tells us that the iron was sent down to earth. Scientists have, only recently, come to discover the relevant facts about the formation of iron. Geologists believe that the entire energy of our solar system is not sufficient to produce even one atom of iron. Moreover, they state that four times as much energy as that of our solar system would be required to make one atom of iron on the surface of the earth. The geologists thus conclude that iron is an extraterrestrial material that was sent down to earth from some other planet.

Who besides Allah could have such absolute knowledge/done such action, i.e. sending down iron to earth, which excels and encompasses all levels of human knowledge and might?? .!! For sure, no one can claim that.
Can you give me a reference for that claim from the geologists?

I think you have also misunderstood the basic science of the formation of Iron. Our Sun is on what is called the CNO cycle,

C12 + 1H →N13 + γ +1,95 MeV
N13 → C13 + e+ + νe +1,37 MeV
C13 + 1H → N14 + γ +7,54 MeV
N14 + 1H → O15 + γ +7,35 MeV
O15 → N15 + e+ + νe +1,86 MeV
N15 + 1H → C12 + 4He +4,96 MeV

What that means is that an atom of carbon-12 is fused with a neutron to form the next heaviest element, Nitrogen-13, which spontaneously decays into Carbon-13 and some minor particle. Carbon-13 then fuses with another neutron to form Nitrogen-14. Nitrogen-14 fuses with another neutron to form Oxygen-15, which spontaneously decays for form Nitrogen-15, which in turn fuses with another neutron to form Carbon-12 and a Helium particle. So in all the process takes four hydrogen atoms and turns them into a helium atom. The energy needed to fuse carbon, nitrogen and oxygen is high and so the Sun cannot fuse heavier elements such as iron. If everything heavier than Iron did not come from the Sun, they must have come from elsewhere which would be another Sun which has turned supernova. So when our Sun formed, it swept up a lot of material blown into space by other Suns that had died some time previously. That was deposited on this planet when it was formed. The Earth has a mass of about 6x10^24 tons. Of which about 35 percent is iron by mass. So you can see that there is no way that this amount of iron came raining down in the form of asteroids - they would be no planet here for them to hit for one thing.
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HeiGou
04-06-2006, 04:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by RighteousLady
The Sun's Resting Place

The notion of "a resting place" for the sun is vividly described in the Holy Qur'an:

And the Sun runs (on course) unto a resting place. That is the Decree of the Exalted in Might, the All Knowing. The Holy Qur'an (36:38)

"Resting place" is the translation of the Arabic word " Mustaqarr" which indicates an exact appointed place and fixed time. According to modern astronomy, the solar system is indeed moving in space at a rate of 12 miles per second towards a point situated in the constellation of Hercules (alpha lyrae) whose exact location has been precisely calculated.

Furthermore, astronomers have named that "Mustaqarr": The Solar Apex.
May I ask which astronomers?

The Sun weighs approximately 2x10^30 kilograms or as much as 332,950 Earths. It is travelling around the center of the Galaxy at about 217 kilometers per second. KE = 1/2xMxV^2 or a heck of a lot. How do you think that the Sun will stop? I mean it is not moving uphill. It is rotating around in a circle and it has, as you can see, something of the order of 5x10^40 joules of energy. It will not come to a stop unless some force acts on it. There is no resting place for this Sun in that sense. What, short of a collision with another Sun, could stop our Sun?
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HeiGou
04-06-2006, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by RighteousLady
The Quran on the fingertip

Does man (a disbeliever) think that We shall not assemble his bones? Yes, We are Able to put together in perfect order the tips of his fingers [75:3,4] Holy Qur'an.

>deletions<

As we now know that every human has his unique fingerprint.
Would you agree that (a) a finger tip is not the same thing as a finger print, and (b) the Quran does not mention finger prints anywhere at all?

(And by the way the Chinese knew about fingerprints in the Han dynasty - some 800 years before Muhammed was born)
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Zulkiflim
04-08-2006, 06:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Can you give me a reference for that claim from the geologists?

I think you have also misunderstood the basic science of the formation of Iron. Our Sun is on what is called the CNO cycle,

C12 + 1H →N13 + γ +1,95 MeV
N13 → C13 + e+ + νe +1,37 MeV
C13 + 1H → N14 + γ +7,54 MeV
N14 + 1H → O15 + γ +7,35 MeV
O15 → N15 + e+ + νe +1,86 MeV
N15 + 1H → C12 + 4He +4,96 MeV

What that means is that an atom of carbon-12 is fused with a neutron to form the next heaviest element, Nitrogen-13, which spontaneously decays into Carbon-13 and some minor particle. Carbon-13 then fuses with another neutron to form Nitrogen-14. Nitrogen-14 fuses with another neutron to form Oxygen-15, which spontaneously decays for form Nitrogen-15, which in turn fuses with another neutron to form Carbon-12 and a Helium particle. So in all the process takes four hydrogen atoms and turns them into a helium atom. The energy needed to fuse carbon, nitrogen and oxygen is high and so the Sun cannot fuse heavier elements such as iron. If everything heavier than Iron did not come from the Sun, they must have come from elsewhere which would be another Sun which has turned supernova. So when our Sun formed, it swept up a lot of material blown into space by other Suns that had died some time previously. That was deposited on this planet when it was formed. The Earth has a mass of about 6x10^24 tons. Of which about 35 percent is iron by mass. So you can see that there is no way that this amount of iron came raining down in the form of asteroids - they would be no planet here for them to hit for one thing.
Salaam

Pls go here

http://ca.geocities.com/spacephysicsisu/meteoroid.html
http://www.crystalinks.com/meteors.html

http://www.galleries.com/minerals/el.../iron/iron.htm

Inshallah..Allah know best.
Reply

Zulkiflim
04-08-2006, 06:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
May I ask which astronomers?

The Sun weighs approximately 2x10^30 kilograms or as much as 332,950 Earths. It is travelling around the center of the Galaxy at about 217 kilometers per second. KE = 1/2xMxV^2 or a heck of a lot. How do you think that the Sun will stop? I mean it is not moving uphill. It is rotating around in a circle and it has, as you can see, something of the order of 5x10^40 joules of energy. It will not come to a stop unless some force acts on it. There is no resting place for this Sun in that sense. What, short of a collision with another Sun, could stop our Sun?
Salaam,

As the Quran say,the Sun rotates on a trajectory,
Pls go here
http://science.nasa.gov/ssl/pad/solar/sunturn.htm
http://galileoandeinstein.physics.vi.../starry~1.html

Also why the sun stops only Allah knows,but we do have some scientific evidencce that the sun may die out or as you say another force destroy the sun
But as the Quran say clearly.."a resting place" would indicate that the sun shall die out or as many scietist would say the fuel would be gone.

Allah knows best..
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Zulkiflim
04-08-2006, 07:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Would you agree that (a) a finger tip is not the same thing as a finger print, and (b) the Quran does not mention finger prints anywhere at all?

(And by the way the Chinese knew about fingerprints in the Han dynasty - some 800 years before Muhammed was born)
Salaam,

May i ask can you get finger print wihout a finger tip?
As the Quranic verse say,

Ayahsabu al-insanu allannajmaAAa AAithamahu
Bala qadireena AAala annusawwiya bananahu

Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.

And that verse is a challenge when some one said to Propeht Muhammad saw,will we live again after deat after we have become bones,and the verse replied Yes perfectly to your fingertips.



Also i am interested in the source of of the Han dynasty,can you provide

Inhsallah ..Allah know best
Reply

HeiGou
04-08-2006, 09:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
The energy needed to fuse carbon, nitrogen and oxygen is high and so the Sun cannot fuse heavier elements such as iron. If everything heavier than Iron did not come from the Sun, they must have come from elsewhere which would be another Sun which has turned supernova. So when our Sun formed, it swept up a lot of material blown into space by other Suns that had died some time previously. That was deposited on this planet when it was formed. The Earth has a mass of about 6x10^24 tons. Of which about 35 percent is iron by mass. So you can see that there is no way that this amount of iron came raining down in the form of asteroids - they would be no planet here for them to hit for one thing.
Pls go here

http://ca.geocities.com/spacephysicsisu/meteoroid.html
http://www.crystalinks.com/meteors.html

http://www.galleries.com/minerals/el.../iron/iron.htm
Sure but they do not answer the question or even address the issue. I am happy to accept that asteroids are often made up of iron - iron-nickel is the name for the most common type of asteroid. But the iron in our Solar System is extra-Solar, admittedly, but it was here when the Earth was formed. Very little has come down since then in the form of asteroids as far as we can tell.

Which doesn't mean there aren't iron-nickel asteroids around. They were an important source of iron for the early iron-makers. Presumably the Black Stone in the Kaba is of this type. Or related to it. But again over a third of the mass of the Earth is iron. How could that have rained down?
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HeiGou
04-08-2006, 09:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
As the Quran say,the Sun rotates on a trajectory,
Pls go here
http://science.nasa.gov/ssl/pad/solar/sunturn.htm
Please correct me if I am wrong but this one just says the Sun rotates. We know that. And it is irrelevant to any claims made here recently.

And this one just seems to be about astronomy from the Earth's surface and so is equally irrelevant.

Also why the sun stops only Allah knows,but we do have some scientific evidencce that the sun may die out or as you say another force destroy the sun
That is true. But not that the Sun is slowly moving to some point where it will stop. Now perhaps God can do that, but it would take, literally, a miracle.

[quopte] But as the Quran say clearly.."a resting place" would indicate that the sun shall die out or as many scietist would say the fuel would be gone. [/QUOTE]

I much prefer that as an explanation.
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HeiGou
04-08-2006, 09:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
May i ask can you get finger print wihout a finger tip?
The question ought to be the other way around - can you have a finger tip without a finger print? The Quranic text looked to be interested in tips to me, not in prints.

As the Quranic verse say,

Ayahsabu al-insanu allannajmaAAa AAithamahu
Bala qadireena AAala annusawwiya bananahu

Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.

And that verse is a challenge when some one said to Propeht Muhammad saw,will we live again after deat after we have become bones,and the verse replied Yes perfectly to your fingertips.
I have no problem with that as a claim. But the word "finger print" does not appear there does it?

Also i am interested in the source of of the Han dynasty,can you provide
I can look around. Let me get back to you.
Reply

Zulkiflim
04-09-2006, 03:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
The question ought to be the other way around - can you have a finger tip without a finger print? The Quranic text looked to be interested in tips to me, not in prints.



I have no problem with that as a claim. But the word "finger print" does not appear there does it?



I can look around. Let me get back to you.
Salaam,

thus it is simple,again the qeustion,would you have fingerprint if the whole fingr is not there..For every fingerprint can be identical to other if they are not whole..it is only when the finger is whole do we get the differences and miracle of that verse.

That each is an individual,no two the same.
The verse answer in its tone and context very simple..to the question asked.

For Allah,is our creator,and He knows HIS creation.

Ayahsabu al-insanu allannajmaAAa AAithamahu
Bala qadireena AAala annusawwiya bananahu

Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.

Allah can aseemble the bones,,,and yeah that verse clothe the flesh on the bones and the individual differences that makes a human being his own being.

Alhamdulilah.
Reply

Zulkiflim
04-09-2006, 04:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Sure but they do not answer the question or even address the issue. I am happy to accept that asteroids are often made up of iron - iron-nickel is the name for the most common type of asteroid. But the iron in our Solar System is extra-Solar, admittedly, but it was here when the Earth was formed. Very little has come down since then in the form of asteroids as far as we can tell.

Which doesn't mean there aren't iron-nickel asteroids around. They were an important source of iron for the early iron-makers. Presumably the Black Stone in the Kaba is of this type. Or related to it. But again over a third of the mass of the Earth is iron. How could that have rained down?
Salaam,

Alhamdulilah that you have read it and understood a part of it.

You can accept that asteroid are made up of iron and nickel.

And the Quranic verse say that

We have sent our Messengers with clear proofs, and sent down with them the Book and Balance, that mankind may observe justice; And We sent down iron, in which is (material for) mighty power, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, unseen, Him and His Messengers, for Allah is full of strength, Exalted in Might.
(The Holy Qur'an, 57:25)


Allah sent down the Iron for the benefit of mankind .
In that is a miracle by itself,in the past as geologist has seen and known asteroid deposit or hit the eart in huge quantities,this fact is not disputed.

Thus Allah has said,and no more BIG asteroid have hit earth any more.Alhamdulilah.

as the links show fine particles of comet and asteroid do come to earth but the affect are negligible..as comapred to the past..which Allah sent for the good of mankind.
Reply

HeiGou
04-09-2006, 08:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
thus it is simple,again the qeustion,would you have fingerprint if the whole fingr is not there..For every fingerprint can be identical to other if they are not whole..it is only when the finger is whole do we get the differences and miracle of that verse.
Actually the question is still the other way around. The Sister claimed that the Quran, in talking about finger tips, was proving something about finger prints. It may be that for a finger print to exist you need a finger tip, but people knew thy had finger tips thousands of years before they knew they had finger prints. Where does the Quran mention finger prints?

Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.

Allah can aseemble the bones,,,and yeah that verse clothe the flesh on the bones and the individual differences that makes a human being his own being.
Absolutely. Which would, presumably, include finger prints. But it does not say finger prints does it?
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Hussam
04-12-2006, 02:47 PM
:sl:


I am not sure if this has been posted, so forgive me but.....

I found this INCREDIBLE site, mashallah about the miracles of the Quran. It is a MUST SEE.

http://www.-----------------------/

:w:
Reply

Soldier2000
04-12-2006, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by RighteousLady [Link only for registered members]
Iron is a Divine Gift to Humankind

We have sent our Messengers with clear proofs, and sent down with them the Book and Balance, that mankind may observe justice; And We sent down iron, in which is (material for) mighty power, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, unseen, Him and His Messengers, for Allah is full of strength, Exalted in Might.
(The Holy Qur'an, 57:25)

The Holy Qur'an tells us that the iron was sent down to earth. Scientists have, only recently, come to discover the relevant facts about the formation of iron. Geologists believe that the entire energy of our solar system is not sufficient to produce even one atom of iron. Moreover, they state that four times as much energy as that of our solar system would be required to make one atom of iron on the surface of the earth. The geologists thus conclude that iron is an extraterrestrial material that was sent down to earth from some other planet.

Who besides Allah could have such absolute knowledge/done such action, i.e. sending down iron to earth, which excels and encompasses all levels of human knowledge and might?? .!! For sure, no one can claim that.

Can you give me a reference for that claim from the geologists?

I think you have also misunderstood the basic science of the formation of Iron. Our Sun is on what is called the CNO cycle,

C12 + 1H →N13 + γ +1,95 MeV
N13 → C13 + e+ + νe +1,37 MeV
C13 + 1H → N14 + γ +7,54 MeV
N14 + 1H → O15 + γ +7,35 MeV
O15 → N15 + e+ + νe +1,86 MeV
N15 + 1H → C12 + 4He +4,96 MeV

What that means is that an atom of carbon-12 is fused with a neutron to form the next heaviest element, Nitrogen-13, which spontaneously decays into Carbon-13 and some minor particle. Carbon-13 then fuses with another neutron to form Nitrogen-14. Nitrogen-14 fuses with another neutron to form Oxygen-15, which spontaneously decays for form Nitrogen-15, which in turn fuses with another neutron to form Carbon-12 and a Helium particle. So in all the process takes four hydrogen atoms and turns them into a helium atom. The energy needed to fuse carbon, nitrogen and oxygen is high and so the Sun cannot fuse heavier elements such as iron. If everything heavier than Iron did not come from the Sun, they must have come from elsewhere which would be another Sun which has turned supernova. So when our Sun formed, it swept up a lot of material blown into space by other Suns that had died some time previously. That was deposited on this planet when it was formed. The Earth has a mass of about 6x10^24 tons. Of which about 35 percent is iron by mass. So you can see that there is no way that this amount of iron came raining down in the form of asteroids - they would be no planet here for them to hit for one thing.
Hey Heigou-

- I just read through your response to the sister’s article about iron-

Your response, is that suppose to be a rebuttal to what she has said?

Or is it a case of putting down some chemical formulas trying to blind people with science, in order to shift the debate in your favour-

Have you actually read the scientific extract that you have posted, if you’re forwarding it as a rebuttal, its obvious that you haven’t, or may have not understood it-?


Sisters Article

We have sent our Messengers with clear proofs, and sent down with them the Book and Balance, that mankind may observe justice; And We sent down iron, in which is (material for) mighty power, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, unseen, Him and His Messengers, for Allah is full of strength, Exalted in Might.
(The Holy Qur'an, 57:25)

You’re Article minus the formula for the chemical reaction


If everything heavier than Iron did not come from the Sun, they must have come from elsewhere which would be another Sun which has turned supernova.

So in what way does your response qualify as a sound rebuttal-?

becareful when collecting info from the net, sometimes its like a dog collecting flies!
Reply

Soldier2000
04-12-2006, 04:13 PM
argument about the fingerprint - fingertips- read through the verse again and may be it might dawn on you!

Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.


perfect order of a fingertip- hmm, i wonder what that means?
Reply

j4763
04-12-2006, 04:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Soldier2000
argument about the fingerprint - fingertips- read through the verse again and may be it might dawn on you!

Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.


perfect order of a fingertip- hmm, i wonder what that means?
Still cant see finger print in the verse.

How far up is the very tip of a finger? Some might say the last mm, which has hardly any print at all.
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Abu Zakariya
04-12-2006, 04:17 PM
The resting place for the sun mentioned in the verse is refering to when the sun will rise from the west as a sign of the Day of Judgement.
Reply

Soldier2000
04-12-2006, 04:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
Still cant see finger print in the verse.
Still cant see finger print in the verse.
Off course you cant!
Reply

j4763
04-12-2006, 04:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Soldier2000
Off course you cant!
Well then how does it have anything to do with the finger print... You know there's also a finger nail at the tip of ones finger too!
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czgibson
04-12-2006, 04:51 PM
Greetings,

These are just more examples of the familiar species of argument attempting to show that the Qur'an contains scientific facts well in advance of their actual discovery by scientists. To make this argument, proponents will normally give specious interpretations of their chosen text, in one case above we are seeing this with respect to the 'fingerprints' example.

The Qur'an does not mention fingerprints in this verse, and it says nothing about fingerprints being a unique identifier of an individual. Therefore, to suggest that the Qur'an contains this scientific knowledge about fingerprints is absolutely unwarranted by the text.

The 'scientific miracles' argument is so unconvincing that it is baffling that people still try to use it. The same argument could be made with respect to many other texts, as I've pointed out before when dealing with this subject, but no-one makes claims for the works of, say, Democritus and Aristarchus having been divinely inspired. In fact, since the 'scientific' statements in the Qur'an are usually very unclear (or as in the 'fingerprints' example, not even present in the text at all), and the statements of those Greek scientists are contrastingly clear and unequivocal, the Greek scientists have a stronger case. However, as I mentioned, no-one makes the case for the Greek scientists having been divinely inspired in view of their uncanny predictions of modern science, because such an argument would be superfluous given that there are alternative explanations that are much more likely viz. that they were simply very clever or lucky men.

Surely it is time that the ludicrous 'scientific miracles' argument be laid to rest?

Peace
Reply

------
04-12-2006, 04:55 PM
Surely it is time that the ludicrous 'scientific miracles' argument be laid to rest?
Why ? There are scientic miracles in the Qur'an.

Click Here To See
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czgibson
04-12-2006, 04:59 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Pagal Kuri
Why ? There are scientic miracles in the Qur'an.
Did you even read my post?

Perhaps you'd like to refute me point by point, rather than giving an assertion with no argument to support it?

Peace
Reply

Abu Zakariya
04-12-2006, 05:01 PM
I agree with czgibson. This has gone to far.

At best, we can say that it is interesting that the verse mentions the tips of the fingers and that it maybe indicates something. At best. To call it a scientific miracle is to overdo it, to say the least.

It's gotten to the point were it has become silly. I'm not necesseraly refering to these examples.
For instance, some people say that the verse in ar-Rahman:
Ya ma'shar al-Jinni wal-Insi inistat'atum an tanfudhu min aqtari samawati wal-Ardi fanfudhu. La tanfudhuna illa bi-Sultan. (Oh assembly of Jinn and Men. If you can transgress the boundaries of the heavens and earth, then do so. You will not be able to do so without power.)
refers to the space-rockets, when it's clearly talking about the day of Judgement and the fact that the people will try to escape it, but wont be able to since the Angels will be there surrounding them.
Reply

------
04-12-2006, 05:06 PM
Oh yh soz Czgibson :embarrass
Reply

root
04-12-2006, 06:54 PM
It's a miracle. A revalation from God:

“Smiling in the face of your brother is charity … and pouring out from your bucket into your brother’s bucket is charity.”

New revelation of the smiling face of mars.



Sorce:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4902734.stm

And of course the impact crator is like a "bucket" in that it could hold and contain mass just like a bucket.

Let's all mail it around, Allah once again proves the Quran correct.......

Yes, perhaps it is time to drop it!
Reply

alam
04-13-2006, 03:24 PM
HeiGou,
Dude, u are argueing for nothing. infact you only seem to be supporting whatever you wrote out of sarcasm. Please abstain from it, and try to have an open mind.
Reply

czgibson
04-13-2006, 05:04 PM
Greetings Alam,

First of all, welcome to the forum. :)

format_quote Originally Posted by alam
HeiGou,
Dude, u are argueing for nothing. infact you only seem to be supporting whatever you wrote out of sarcasm. Please abstain from it, and try to have an open mind.
Would you like to show HeiGou where he's wrong? His posts seem perfectly fair to me.

Greetings Pagal,

format_quote Originally Posted by Pagal Kuri
Oh yh soz Czgibson
No worries. :)

Peace
Reply

cool_jannah
05-24-2006, 10:55 PM
Since the kuffar(specially the athiests) like to talk about rationale and concrete proofs of the existence of a divine being and the Tauheed (Oneness of Allah), I have a very good proposition for them, and that is - Why don't you try reading the Qur'an(with an open heart) for a change? I mean...there a certain limit to absurdity, which unfortunately the kuffar have crossed way beyond by not accepting Islam. I am not asking the kuffar or the athiest to believe in Islam blindly. Submission to Allah's will completely is a higher step that the true believers and the people of Taqwaa have already aligned themsleves to. When it comes to solid evidences of the true nature of the beautiful religion that God has sent to us, there are plenty that the kuffar can look into and ponder about it(before their soul departs i.e.). Your first steps (through rationale) to freeing yourselves from being the fuel of fire.

A man who was an Ummmi (pbuh) or a person who had no knowledge of reading or writing spoke words that made so much sense that people in the 20th century are confirming through their 'science' or their 'logic'. He(pbuh) spoke words as is some divine power was putting words in his mouth.
SubhanAllah.

Here's why -

Allah shows his signs through these miraculous verses of Al-Qur'an

1)

THE FUNCTION OF MOUNTAINS
The Qur'an draws attention to a very important geological function of mountains:
We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them… (Qur'an, 21:31)
The verse states that mountains perform the function of preventing shocks in the Earth. This fact was not known by anyone at the time the Qur'an was revealed. It was, in fact, brought to light only recently, as a result of the findings of modern geological research.
Formerly, it was thought that mountains were merely protrusions rising above the surface of the Earth. However, scientists realised that this was not actually the case, and that those parts known as the mountain root extended down as far as 10-15 times their own height. With these features, mountains play a similar role to a nail or peg firmly holding down a tent. For example, Mount Everest, the summit of which stands approximately 9 km above the surface of the Earth, has a root deeper than 125 km.24

Mountains have roots deep under the surface of the ground. (Press and Siever, Earth, 413.)

Schematic section. Mountains, like pegs, have deep roots embedded in the ground. (Andre Cailleux and J. Moody Stuart, Anatomy of the Earth (McGraw-Hill Companies: 1968), 220.)


Another illustration shows how mountains are peg-like in shape, due to their deep roots. (Edward J. Tarbuck and Frederick K. Lutgens, Earth Science (USA: Macmillan USA: 1993), 158.)
Mountains emerge as a result of the movements and collisions of massive plates forming the Earth's crust. When two plates collide, the stronger one slides under the other, the one on the top bends and forms heights and mountains. The layer beneath proceeds under the ground and makes a deep extension downward. Consequently, as stated earlier, mountains have a portion stretching downwards, as large as their visible parts on the Earth.
In a scientific text, the structure of mountains is described as follows:
Where continents are thicker, as in mountain ranges, the crust sinks deeper into the mantle.25
Professor Siaveda, a world-renowned underwater geologist, made the following comment in reference to the way that mountains have root-like stalks attaching them to the surface:
The fundamental difference between continental mountains and the oceanic mountains lies in its material... But the common denominator on both mountains are that they have roots to support the mountains. In the case of continental mountains, light-low density material from the mountain is extended down into the earth as a root. In the case of oceanic mountains, there is also light material supporting the mountain as a root... Therefore, the function of the roots are to support the mountains according to the law of Archimedes.26
Furthermore, a book titled Earth, by Dr. Frank Press, former president of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, which is still used as a text book in a great many universities, states that mountains are like stakes, and are buried deep under the surface of the Earth.27
In other verses, this role of the mountains is pointed out by a comparison with "pegs":
Have We not made the earth as a bed and the mountains its pegs? (Qur'an, 78:6-7)
In another verse it is revealed that Allah "made the mountains firm." (Qur'an, 79:32) The word "arsaha" in this verse means "was made rooted, was fixed, was nailed to the earth." Similarly, mountains extend to the surface layer joining lines on and below the surface, and nail these together. By fixing the Earth's crust they prevent any sliding over the magma layer or amongst the layers themselves. In short, mountains can be compared to nails holding strips of wood together. The fixing effect of mountains is known as isostasy in scientific literature. Isostasy is the state of equilibrium between the upward force created by the mantle layer and the downward force created by the Earth's crust. As mountains lose mass due to erosion, soil loss or melting of glaciers, they can gain mass from the formation of glaciers, volcanic explosions or soil formation. Therefore, as mountains grow lighter they are pressed upwards by the raising force implemented by the liquids. Alternatively, as they grow heavier they are pressed into the mantle by the force of gravity. Equilibrium between these two forces is established by isostasy. This balancing property of mountains is described in these terms in a scientific source:
G.B Airy in 1855 suggested that the crust of the earth could be likened to rafts of timber floating on water. Thick pieces of timber float higher above the water surface than thin pieces and similarly thick sections of the earth's crust will float on a liquid or plastic substratum of greater density. Airy was suggesting that mountains have a deep root of lower density rock which the plains lack. Four years after Airy published his work, J.H Pratt offered an alternative hypothesis... By this hypothesis rock columns below mountains must have a lower density, because of their greater length, than shorter rock columns beneath plains. Both Airy and Pratt's hypothesis imply that surface irregularities are balanced by differences in density of rocks below the major features (mountains and plains) of the crust. This state of BALANCE is described as the concept of ISOSTASY.28
Today, we know that the rocky external layer of the Earth's surface is riven by deep faults and split into plates swimming above the molten lava. Since the Earth revolves very quickly around its own axis, were it not for the fixing effect of the mountains, these plaques would shift. In such an event, soil would not collect on the Earth's surface, water would not accumulate in the soil, no plants could grow, and no roads or houses could be built. In short, life on Earth would be impossible. Through the mercy of Allah, however, mountains act like nails, and to a large extent, prevent movement in the Earth's surface.
We subjected the mountains to glorify [Allah] with him in the
evening and at sunrise.
(Qur’an, 38:18)
He cast firmly embedded mountains on the earth so it would not move under you, and rivers and pathways so that hopefully
you would be guided.
(Qur’an, 16:15)

This vital role of mountains, which has been discovered by modern geological and seismic research, was revealed in the Qur'an centuries ago as an example of the supreme wisdom in Allah's creation.
… [He] cast firmly embedded mountains on the earth so that it would not move under you… (Qur'an, 31:10)
2)
THE IDENTITY IN THE FINGERPRINT


Everyone, including identical twins, has a unique fingerprint. In other words, people's identities are coded at their fingertips. This coding system may also be compared to the barcode system that is used today.

While it is stated in the Qur'an that it is easy for Allah to bring man back to life after death, peoples' fingerprints are particularly emphasized:
Yes, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers. (Qur'an, 75:4)
The emphasis on fingerprints has a very special meaning. This is because shapes and details on everyone's fingerprint are unique to each individual. Every person who is alive or who has ever lived in this world has a set of unique fingerprints. Furthermore, even identical twins having the very same DNA sequence have their own set of fingerprints.105
Fingerprints attain their final shape before birth and remain the same for a lifetime unless a permanent scar appears. That is why fingerprints are accepted as a very important proof of identity, exclusive to their owner. The science of fingerprints has been used as a non-erring identity determination method.
However, what is important is that this feature of fingerprints was only discovered in the late 19th century. Before then, people regarded fingerprints as ordinary curves without any specific importance or meaning. However in the Qur'an, Allah points to the fingertips, which did not attract anyone's attention at that time, and calls our attention to their importance. This importance has only been fully understood in our day.

The validity of the technique to establish identity by means of fingerprints (AFS) has been confirmed by various police organisations over the last 25 years and is a legally approved method. No technology of identity verification in our time gives such effective results as fingerprints. Using fingerprints to establish identity has been used in legal processes for the last 100 years and possesses international acceptance. “What is a Fingerprint?,” (www.ridgesandfurrows.
homestead.com/fingerprint.html.)

In his book Fingerprint Techniques A.A. Moenssens analyses the way that each individual has a unique set of fingerprints:
... no two fingerprints from different digits have ever been found to match exactly. Andre A. Moenssens, “Is Fingerprint Identification a ‘Science’?,” (www.forensic-evidence.com/site/
ID/ID00004_2


3)

THE SUN'S TRAJECTORY

It is stressed in the Qur'an that the Sun and Moon follow specific trajectories:
It is He Who created night and day and the sun and moon, each one swimming in a sphere. (Qur'an, 21:33)
The word "swim" in the above verse is expressed in Arabic by the word "sabaha" and is used to describe the movement of the Sun in space. The word means that the Sun does not move randomly through space but that it rotates around its axis and follows a course as it does so. The fact that the Sun is not fixed in position but rather follows a specific trajectory is also stated in another verse:
And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. (Qur'an, 36:38)
These facts set out in the Qur'an were only discovered by means of astronomical advances in our own time. According to astronomers' calculations, the Sun moves along a path known as the Solar Apex in the path of the star Vega at an incredible speed of 720,000 kmph. In rough terms, this shows that the Sun traverses some 17.28 million km a day. As well as the Sun itself, all the planets and satellites within its gravitational field also travel the same distance.

4)

THE SEAS NOT MINGLING WITH ONE ANOTHER


A satellite photograph of the Strait of Gibraltar.

One of the properties of seas that has only recently been discovered is related in a verse of the Qur'an as follows:
He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through. (Qur'an, 55:19-20)
This property of the seas, that is, that they meet and yet do not intermix, has only very recently been discovered by oceanographers. Because of the physical force called "surface tension," the waters of neighbouring seas do not mix. Caused by the difference in the density of their waters, surface tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin wall were between them.60
It is interesting that, during a period when there was little knowledge of physics, and of surface tension, or oceanography, this truth was revealed in the Qur'an.


There are large waves, strong currents, and tides in the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean. Mediterranean Sea water enters the Atlantic by Gibraltar. But their temperature, salinity, and densities do not change, because of the barrier that separates them.



5)

DARKNESS IN THE SEAS AND INTERNAL WAVES
Or [the unbelievers' state] are like the darkness of a fathomless sea which is covered by waves above which are waves above which are clouds, layers of darkness, one upon the other. If he puts out his hand, he can scarcely see it. Those Allah gives no light to, they have no light. (Qur'an, 24:40)


Measurements made with today's technology have revealed that between 3 and 30 percent of the sunlight is reflected at the surface of the sea. Then, almost all of the seven colours of the light spectrum are absorbed, one after another, in the first 200 metres, except for blue light (picture at left). Below a depth of 1,000 metres, there is no light at all (above picture). This scientific fact was pointed out in Sura Nur 40 in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago.
In deep seas and oceans, the darkness is found at a depth of 200 meters and deeper. At this depth, there is almost no light, and below a depth of 1,000 meters there is no light at all.61
Today, we know about the general formation of the sea, the characteristics of the living things in it, its salinity, as well as the amount of water it contains, and its surface area and depth. Submarines and special equipment, developed with modern technology, have enabled scientists to obtain such information.


The picture to the left represents internal waves at interface between two layers of water of different densities. The lower layer is denser than the upper one. This scientific fact, declared in Sura Nur 40 of the Qur'an 14 centuries ago, has been discovered by today's scientists only very recently.

Human beings are not able to dive to a depth of more than 70 meters without the aid of special equipment. They cannot survive unaided in the dark depths of the oceans, such as at a depth of 200 meters. For these reasons, scientists have only recently been able to discover detailed information about the seas. However, that the depth of the sea is dark was revealed in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago. It is certainly one of the miracles of the Qur'an that such information was given at a time where no equipment to enable man to dive into the depths of the oceans was available.
In addition, the statement in Surat an-Nur 40 "…like the darkness of a fathomless sea which is covered by waves above which are waves above which are clouds…" draws our attention to another miracle of the Qur'an.
Scientists have only recently discovered that there are sub-surface waves, which "occur on density interfaces between layers of different densities." These internal waves cover the deep waters of seas and oceans because deep water has a higher density than the water above it. Internal waves act like surface waves. They can break, just like surface waves. Internal waves cannot be discerned by the human eye, but they can be detected by studying temperature or salinity changes at a given location.62
The statements in the Qur'an run parallel precisely the above explanation. Certainly, this fact, which scientists has discovered very recently, shows once again that the Qur'an is the word of Allah.


SubhanAllah these are just a few verses from the Qur'an. There are many more http://www.-----------------------/scientific_index.html
for those who base their belief merely on 'their' logic and 'their' reasoning.


Reply

Protected_Diamond
05-24-2006, 11:14 PM
:sl:

Excellent post subhana Allah! All we need to do is look at the whole world itself to know that Allah s.w.a exists! The most merciful, the most great & the most just!

Allah hu akbar!! :sister:

:w:
Reply

Muhammad
05-24-2006, 11:16 PM
:sl:

Threads merged.

And please remember to be respectful!

:w:
Reply

HeiGou
05-25-2006, 09:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by cool_jannah
Since the kuffar(specially the athiests) like to talk about rationale and concrete proofs of the existence of a divine being and the Tauheed (Oneness of Allah), I have a very good proposition for them, and that is - Why don't you try reading the Qur'an(with an open heart) for a change?
Well I have done my best, but I do not buy the scientific miracle argument.

I mean...there a certain limit to absurdity, which unfortunately the kuffar have crossed way beyond by not accepting Islam. I am not asking the kuffar or the athiest to believe in Islam blindly.
I suspect that is exactly what you are asking, but why do you think it is absurd? Muslims have been ruling over non-Muslims too long. You have not had to think what it is like to be a non-Muslim or how to convince people Islam is true because you all have been able to compell. Calling me stupid is not a good way to start convincing me of the benefits of Islam.

A man who was an Ummmi (pbuh) or a person who had no knowledge of reading or writing spoke words that made so much sense that people in the 20th century are confirming through their 'science' or their 'logic'. He(pbuh) spoke words as is some divine power was putting words in his mouth.
You assume that "Ummi" means "illiterate". I would think it was a man who was sent to an "Ummah" myself. Why do you think it means illterate and do you have any examples of that usage before Muhammed's time?

Allah shows his signs through these miraculous verses of Al-Qur'an

THE FUNCTION OF MOUNTAINS
The Qur'an draws attention to a very important geological function of mountains:
We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them… (Qur'an, 21:31)

The verse states that mountains perform the function of preventing shocks in the Earth. This fact was not known by anyone at the time the Qur'an was revealed. It was, in fact, brought to light only recently, as a result of the findings of modern geological research.
Actually it is still not known to modern science. If you look at the regions of the world with lots of mountains, you will also find lots of earthquakes. This is not a surprise as mountains are caused by tectonic plates colliding together and raising the Earth - thus the Earthquakes. So, the Himalayas - lots of Earthquakes. The Andes? Japan? Wherever you find mountains you find a part of the Earth that is full of shocks - why are those mountains doing such a poor job? Notice that the Quran gets it not only wrong but back to front. Mountains not only do not prevent quakes, they are caused by them.

Formerly, it was thought that mountains were merely protrusions rising above the surface of the Earth. However, scientists realised that this was not actually the case, and that those parts known as the mountain root extended down as far as 10-15 times their own height. With these features, mountains play a similar role to a nail or peg firmly holding down a tent. For example, Mount Everest, the summit of which stands approximately 9 km above the surface of the Earth, has a root deeper than 125 km.24

Mountains have roots deep under the surface of the ground. (Press and Siever, Earth, 413.)

Schematic section. Mountains, like pegs, have deep roots embedded in the ground. (Andre Cailleux and J. Moody Stuart, Anatomy of the Earth (McGraw-Hill Companies: 1968), 220.)


Another illustration shows how mountains are peg-like in shape, due to their deep roots. (Edward J. Tarbuck and Frederick K. Lutgens, Earth Science (USA: Macmillan USA: 1993), 158.)
Actually as anyone can see from those pictures, mountains are not like pegs at all. Pegs are long and thin. They are like cow pats - they are much broader across than they are high or deep. So it is true that you can trace the structure of mountains deep into the earth - not a surprise as they are pushing up from below (and not being pushed down from above like a peg), but they are still not shaped like pegs at all.

Mountains emerge as a result of the movements and collisions of massive plates forming the Earth's crust. When two plates collide, the stronger one slides under the other, the one on the top bends and forms heights and mountains. The layer beneath proceeds under the ground and makes a deep extension downward. Consequently, as stated earlier, mountains have a portion stretching downwards, as large as their visible parts on the Earth.
Notice that this proves that Mountains do not stabilise the Earth but are caused by movements within.

In a scientific text, the structure of mountains is described as follows:
Where continents are thicker, as in mountain ranges, the crust sinks deeper into the mantle.25
Professor Siaveda, a world-renowned underwater geologist, made the following comment in reference to the way that mountains have root-like stalks attaching them to the surface:
The fundamental difference between continental mountains and the oceanic mountains lies in its material... But the common denominator on both mountains are that they have roots to support the mountains. In the case of continental mountains, light-low density material from the mountain is extended down into the earth as a root. In the case of oceanic mountains, there is also light material supporting the mountain as a root... Therefore, the function of the roots are to support the mountains according to the law of Archimedes.26
Neat. But notice he does not use the word "peg". Because again as you can clearly see they are not like tent pegs at all.

In another verse it is revealed that Allah "made the mountains firm." (Qur'an, 79:32) The word "arsaha" in this verse means "was made rooted, was fixed, was nailed to the earth." Similarly, mountains extend to the surface layer joining lines on and below the surface, and nail these together. By fixing the Earth's crust they prevent any sliding over the magma layer or amongst the layers themselves.
Actually this claim is simply untrue. It is, as your quote above shows, the reverse of the truth and is a simple bare-faced, well, I won't use that word.

G.B Airy in 1855 suggested that the crust of the earth could be likened to rafts of timber floating on water. Thick pieces of timber float higher above the water surface than thin pieces and similarly thick sections of the earth's crust will float on a liquid or plastic substratum of greater density. Airy was suggesting that mountains have a deep root of lower density rock which the plains lack. 28
So not "arsaha" ("was made rooted, was fixed, was nailed to the earth") at all.

Today, we know that the rocky external layer of the Earth's surface is riven by deep faults and split into plates swimming above the molten lava. Since the Earth revolves very quickly around its own axis, were it not for the fixing effect of the mountains, these plaques would shift. In such an event, soil would not collect on the Earth's surface, water would not accumulate in the soil, no plants could grow, and no roads or houses could be built. In short, life on Earth would be impossible. Through the mercy of Allah, however, mountains act like nails, and to a large extent, prevent movement in the Earth's surface.
This is simply nonsense.

This vital role of mountains, which has been discovered by modern geological and seismic research, was revealed in the Qur'an centuries ago as an example of the supreme wisdom in Allah's creation.
… [He] cast firmly embedded mountains on the earth so that it would not move under you… (Qur'an, 31:10)
We have established that 1. the mountains are not firmly embedded and 2. they do not prevent the Earth from moving, but are in fact caused by it moving. You need a better sort of geologist to go over these texts.

THE IDENTITY IN THE FINGERPRINT


Everyone, including identical twins, has a unique fingerprint. In other words, people's identities are coded at their fingertips. This coding system may also be compared to the barcode system that is used today.

While it is stated in the Qur'an that it is easy for Allah to bring man back to life after death, peoples' fingerprints are particularly emphasized:
Yes, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers. (Qur'an, 75:4)
The emphasis on fingerprints has a very special meaning.
What emphasis on fingerprints? That passage above does not mention in any way shape or form fingerprints. Which were known to the Han Chinese by the way so even if it did it would not be guaranteed to be a miracle.

However, what is important is that this feature of fingerprints was only discovered in the late 19th century. Before then, people regarded fingerprints as ordinary curves without any specific importance or meaning.
In the 1880s in British India to be exact, but the Chinese knew about it a long time before then and it was a standard way of classifying convicts for instance.

However in the Qur'an, Allah points to the fingertips, which did not attract anyone's attention at that time, and calls our attention to their importance.
Points to but does not mention.

SubhanAllah these are just a few verses from the Qur'an. There are many more http://www.-----------------------/scientific_index.html
for those who base their belief merely on 'their' logic and 'their' reasoning.
And they remain as utterly unconvincing as they always have been. Whatever reasons exist for becoming a Muslim, and I accept that there are some, these are not good ones.
Reply

Muhammad
05-25-2006, 11:21 AM
Hello HeiGou,

You assume that "Ummi" means "illiterate". I would think it was a man who was sent to an "Ummah" myself. Why do you think it means illterate and do you have any examples of that usage before Muhammed's time?
It is quite clear from the Biography of the Prophet (peace be upon him) that he was illiterate, as can be understood from the Qur'an itself:

[29.48] And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand, for then could those who say untrue things have doubted.

The word 'Ummi' is used by Allaah Himself in the Qur'an. Not only this, but it was a sign by which the People of the Book would recognise Muhammad (peace be upon him), as the following ayah explains:

[7.157] Those who follow the Apostle-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful.

Actually it is still not known to modern science. If you look at the regions of the world with lots of mountains, you will also find lots of earthquakes. This is not a surprise as mountains are caused by tectonic plates colliding together and raising the Earth - thus the Earthquakes. So, the Himalayas - lots of Earthquakes. The Andes? Japan? Wherever you find mountains you find a part of the Earth that is full of shocks - why are those mountains doing such a poor job? Notice that the Quran gets it not only wrong but back to front. Mountains not only do not prevent quakes, they are caused by them.
Regarding the issue of mountains, this has been discussed in the following article, written by Dr. Zaghlool El-Naggar, who is a Fellow of the Islamic Academy of Sciences. Member of the Geological Society of London, the Geological Society of Egypt and the American Association of Petroleum Geologists, Tulsa, Oklahoma. Fellow of the Institute of Petroleum, London. Prof. Naggar is the author/co-author of many books and more than 40 research papers in the field of Islamic Thought, Geology, General Science and Education. He was awarded by the Ministry of Education in Egypt the top “Secondary Education Award” as well as the seventh Arab Petroleum Congress Best Papers Award in 1970. Elected a member of the IAS Council (1994 and 1999), Prof. Naggar is currently working at the Arab Development Institute.

http://www.islam-online.net/English/...rticle13.shtml

I quote from the article:

Lithospheric plates move about along the surface of the Earth in response to the way in which heat flows arrive at the base of the lithosphere (text-fig. 11), aided by both the rotation and the wobbling of the Earth around its own axis. There is enough geologic evidence to support the fact that both processes have been much more active in the distant geologic past, slowing gradually with time. Consequently, it is believed that plate movements operated much more rapidly in the early stages of the creation of the Earth and have been steadily slowing down with the steady building-up of mountains and the accretion of continents.

...

The stabilization of lithospheric plates by mountains is effected by their sinking deeply into the zone of weakness of the Earth (the asthenosphere) as wooden pegs sink into the ground to stabilize the corners of a tent. Such a process of stabilization cannot take place without the presence of a viscous, plastic material under the outer rocky cover of the Earth, into which the mountains "roots" can float. In as much as the ship casts its anchor into the anchorage of a port to avoid the dangers of rolling and swaying by winds and waves, the Glorious Quran uses the term "Rawasi" (=moorings or firm anchors) to describe mountains. Such firm anchors do not only stabilize the lithospheric plates, but also the whole planet in its spinning around its own axis (nutation, recession, etc.).

Actually as anyone can see from those pictures, mountains are not like pegs at all. Pegs are long and thin. They are like cow pats - they are much broader across than they are high or deep. So it is true that you can trace the structure of mountains deep into the earth - not a surprise as they are pushing up from below (and not being pushed down from above like a peg), but they are still not shaped like pegs at all.
I'm not sure why you think a peg looks like "cow pat", though dictionary.com has quite a different definition:
  1. A small cylindrical or tapered pin, as of wood, used to fasten things or plug a hole.
  2. A similar pin forming a projection that may be used as a support or boundary marker.
More about mountain stability, the following is taken from: http://www.quranicstudies.com/article49.html

We asked Professor Sievada whether the mountains have a function in establishing the crust of the earth. He said that this has not yet been discovered and established by scientists. In view of the reply we researched and inquired about this and we found out that many geologists gave the same reply, except for a few. Among those few are the authors of this book, entitled “The Earth”. This book is considered as a basic reference text in many universities throughout the world. One of the authors of this book is Frank Press. He is currently the President of the Academy of Sciences in USA. Previously, he was science advisor to former U.S. President Jimmy Carter. What does he say in his book? He illustrates the mountains in a wedge-like shape where the mountain itself is but a small part of the whole whose root is deeply entrenched in the ground. Dr. Press writes on the functions of the mountains and states that they play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth. This is exactly how the Qur'an described mountains 14 centuries ago.

Actually this claim is simply untrue. It is, as your quote above shows, the reverse of the truth and is a simple bare-faced, well, I won't use that word.
So you think mountains are not fixed? Well last time I checked, they looked pretty still to me.

format_quote Originally Posted by cool_jannah
Airy was suggesting that mountains have a deep root of lower density rock which the plains lack.
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
So not "arsaha" ("was made rooted, was fixed, was nailed to the earth") at all.
I don't follow that claim at all :? .

This is simply nonsense.
I would rather take the view of acclaimed scientists:

The above-mentioned discussion clearly indicates that one of the basic functions of the mountains on land is its role in stabilizing continental masses lest these would shake and jerk, making life virtually impossible on the surface of our planet.

http://www.islam-online.net/English/Science/2002/09/article13-b.shtml#33


What emphasis on fingerprints? That passage above does not mention in any way shape or form fingerprints.
Does not the tip of a finger hold a person's fingerprint?

Which were known to the Han Chinese by the way so even if it did it would not be guaranteed to be a miracle.
And how do you propose such knowledge reached an illiterate man living thousands of miles away, bearing in mind that the British only discovered fingerprinting from india in around 1858?

And they remain as utterly unconvincing as they always have been. Whatever reasons exist for becoming a Muslim, and I accept that there are some, these are not good ones.
While the Qur'an is not a science textbook, I believe it does have amazing connections with this field which some people only bend over backwards in attempts to deny.

Peace.
Reply

j4763
05-25-2006, 11:41 AM
Does not the tip of a finger hold a person's fingerprint?
That all depends on where the tip is. I could say that at the tip of ones finger is a nail not a finger print.
Reply

Ayesha Rana
05-25-2006, 12:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Soldier2000
argument about the fingerprint - fingertips- read through the verse again and may be it might dawn on you!

Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.


perfect order of a fingertip- hmm, i wonder what that means?
Hey y'know the fingerprint thing well i read somewhere in the Quran that people will prove things using the tips of the fingers ...sorry big hurry i'll get the ref insha'Allah
Reply

HeiGou
05-25-2006, 04:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
I'm not sure why you think a peg looks like "cow pat",
Actually you have misunderstood me: I meant to say that mountains look like cow pats, not like pegs.

though dictionary.com has quite a different definition:
  1. A small cylindrical or tapered pin, as of wood, used to fasten things or plug a hole.
  2. A similar pin forming a projection that may be used as a support or boundary marker.
So neither looks like a mountain at all. Mountains are not small, they are not cylindrical, they do taper, but not much. They often tend to be as big across as they are high and sometimes more so.

More about mountain stability, the following is taken from: [URL="http://www.quranicstudies.com/article49.html"]http://www.quranicstudies.com/article49.html
I would be much happier about these articles if they came from geology sites and not religious ones. I would not expect to go to Islamonline or anything called Quranicstudies.com and find serious scientists.

We asked Professor Sievada whether the mountains have a function in establishing the crust of the earth. He said that this has not yet been discovered and established by scientists. In view of the reply we researched and inquired about this and we found out that many geologists gave the same reply, except for a few.
So they do not think it is holding the continental plates down and preventing all life from being thrown off by bucking rocks.

Dr. Press writes on the functions of the mountains and states that they play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth. This is exactly how the Qur'an described mountains 14 centuries ago.
Really? Where does he say this?

So you think mountains are not fixed? Well last time I checked, they looked pretty still to me.
And yet tectonic drift means they are moving. As the previous poster's cut and paste said in a different part of his cut and paste.

I would rather take the view of acclaimed scientists:
Me too. Do you know a good geology site?

Does not the tip of a finger hold a person's fingerprint?
It also holds a fingernail. The Quran mentions neither.

While the Qur'an is not a science textbook, I believe it does have amazing connections with this field which some people only bend over backwards in attempts to deny.
I am sorry you think that is what I am doing
Reply

czgibson
05-25-2006, 06:00 PM
Greetings,

This thread seems to be going round in circles, and it appears that people are posting without having read previous pages.

The 'scientific miracles' argument is still as unconvincing as it's ever been. Personally, I find the 'fingerprints' example to be the most conspicuous of these assorted insults to people's intelligence.

I'd like to invite a response to a question I've asked repeatedly in this regard, without having received an answer. If the scientific miracles argument is true, and it proves that the information in the Qur'an is divinely ordained, then why is the same not said of Democritus and Aristarchus of Samos, who made scientific claims that were only proven to be true centuries after their deaths?

It would be great to hear some Muslim opinions on this.

Peace
Reply

root
05-25-2006, 09:11 PM
I guess star-trek should be added to the list of revelations of science by divine inspiration since it correctly detailed the following years before science got to it:

Mobile phones

Ion propolsion drives

And the latest divine inspiration is the "cloaking device"

Researchers in the US and Britain have unveiled their blueprints for building a cloaking device. So far, cloaking has been confined to science fiction; in Star Trek it is used to render spacecraft invisible. Professor Sir John Pendry says a simple demonstration model that could work for radar might be possible within 18 months' time.
Source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5016068.stm
Reply

Sohrab
05-25-2006, 09:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

This thread seems to be going round in circles, and it appears that people are posting without having read previous pages.

The 'scientific miracles' argument is still as unconvincing as it's ever been. Personally, I find the 'fingerprints' example to be the most conspicuous of these assorted insults to people's intelligence.

I'd like to invite a response to a question I've asked repeatedly in this regard, without having received an answer. If the scientific miracles argument is true, and it proves that the information in the Qur'an is divinely ordained, then why is the same not said of Democritus and Aristarchus of Samos, who made scientific claims that were only proven to be true centuries after their deaths?

It would be great to hear some Muslim opinions on this.

Peace

Yep, people do slide off the track sometimes when it comes to scientific facts in the Quran, and in their desperation to prove it to the non muslims they exaggerate and even cheat at times. Unfortunately this only tarnishes the image of islam. We do believe that Quran is scientifically accurate, but it doesn't mean we use the unfair means to convince someone about it. And quran is not a book of science after all, it's supposed to be a book of Guidance (hidaya).

Prayers
Reply

Muhammad
05-25-2006, 09:44 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Actually you have misunderstood me: I meant to say that mountains look like cow pats, not like pegs.
And what exactly do you mean by "cow pats"? Perhaps I have misunderstood what you mean by it, because I still disagree.

So neither looks like a mountain at all. Mountains are not small, they are not cylindrical, they do taper, but not much. They often tend to be as big across as they are high and sometimes more so.
Obviously, a mountain is not going to be the same size as a tent peg, but the similarity in their function remains.

I would be much happier about these articles if they came from geology sites and not religious ones. I would not expect to go to Islamonline or anything called Quranicstudies.com and find serious scientists.
Fair enough, but these religious sites are quoting renowned scientists, so there must be some truth in their words, no?

So they do not think it is holding the continental plates down and preventing all life from being thrown off by bucking rocks.
"except a few".

Really? Where does he say this?
I think it's in the book called 'The Earth'.

And yet tectonic drift means they are moving. As the previous poster's cut and paste said in a different part of his cut and paste.
I think a question of relativity arises here, as has been brought up in this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...round-sun.html

Me too. Do you know a good geology site?
Not really, but good scientists can often be quoted in all kinds of media, so the type of site might not always be important; rather the context and quality of its information.

It also holds a fingernail. The Quran mentions neither.
But at the very least, it seems quite coincidental that the tip of the finger also holds a very unique and precise component of a human, and that such a precise component is associated with resurrection.

Hello czgibson/root,

Scientists who made scientific claims in the past are not comparable to the Qur'an for a number of reasons, the first that springs to mind being that the Qur'an has always been considered a book of fact; knowledge from One who Knows everything. This is in contrast to people who make "claims" and perhaps even guess at what they think has a possiblity of being true. Such people may have predicted one thing right, yet something else may have been wrong. The Qur'an, on the other hand, has always stated consistent information, none of which has been proven wrong.

Secondly, the Qur'an was revealed to an illiterate man. So while these scientists based their predictions on experiments and knowledge of the subject, Muhammad (peace be upon him) was no expert in geology, let alone being able to read or write. This makes the Qur'an's accounts of nature as well as its literary structure all the more miraculous, especially considering the fact that it was revealed at a time when even experts might not have been able to know of such information (such as embryology).

Peace.
Reply

cool_jannah
05-25-2006, 10:11 PM
Hello people.

Alhamdulillah so we all agree that the Qur'an is the last revelation(warning) for the dwellers of this planet. The kuffar have to understand before raising there futile objections on the scientific facts that we are not trying to proove that Qur'an is the true revelation just because it revelas some astonishing information about the established scientific facts that we have learnt today. No one is forcing you to believe in it. You (the kuffar) have chosen your way.

Moving on...

4)

CREATION FROM HOT SMOKE

The picture represents the Big Bang, which revealed once again that Allah created the universe from nothingness. The Big Bang is a theory that has been proven with scientific evidence. Although some scientists tried to advance arguments against the Big Bang, scientific evidence has caused the Big Bang theory to be completely accepted by the scientific community.




Scientists today are able to observe the formation of stars from a hot gas cloud. Formation from a warm mass of gas also applies to the creation of the universe. The creation of the universe as described in the Qur'an confirms this scientific discovery in the following verse:
He placed firmly embedded mountains on it, towering over it, and blessed it and measured out its nourishment in it, laid out for those who seek it-all in four days. Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come willingly or unwillingly." They both said, "We come willingly." (Qur'an, 41:10-11)

The Arabic word for "smoke" in the above verse is "dukhanun," which describes the hot, cosmic smoke in question. This word in the Qur'an, in pinpoint fashion, describes this smoke very accurately for it is a warm body of gas containing mobile particles connected to solid substances. Here, the Qur'an has employed the most appropriate word from the Arabic language for describing the appearance of this phase of the universe. Let us note that only in the 20th century have scientists discovered that the universe emerged from a hot gas in the form of smoke. 5
The fact that such information about the creation of the universe is given in the Qur'an is nothing short of a miracle of the Qur'an.


5)

THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE

Edwin Hubble with his giant telescope




In the Qur'an, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described in the following terms:
And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning, stating that the universe "expands." The Arabic word "moosiaaoona" in the term "inna lamoosiaaoona," translated into English as "it is We Who are steadily expanding it", comes from the verb "evsea," meaning "to expand." The prefix "la" emphasises the following name or title and adds a sense of "to a great extent." This expression therefore means "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This is the very conclusion that science has reached today. 1



Georges Lemaitre

Until the dawn of the 20th century, the only view prevailing in the world of science was that "the universe has a constant nature and it has existed since infinite time." However, modern research, observations, and calculations carried out by means of modern technology have revealed that the universe in fact had a beginning and that it constantly "expands."
At the beginning of the 20th century, the Russian physicist Alexander Friedmann and the Belgian cosmologist Georges Lemaitre theoretically calculated that the universe is in constant motion and that it is expanding.


From the moment of the Big Bang, the universe has been constantly expanding at a great speed. Scientists compare the expanding universe to the surface of a balloon that is inflated.

This notion was confirmed by the use of observational data in 1929. While observing the sky with a telescope, Edwin Hubble, the American astronomer, discovered that the stars and galaxies were constantly moving away from each other. This discovery is regarded as one of the greatest in the history of astronomy. During these observations, Hubble established that the stars emit a light that turns redder according to their distance. That is because according to the known laws of physics, light heading towards a point of observation turns violet, and light moving away from that point assumes a more reddish hue. During his observations, Hubble noted a tendency towards the colour red in the light emitted by stars. In short, the stars were moving further and further away, all the time. The stars and galaxies were not only moving away from us, but also from each other. A universe where everything constantly moves away from everything else implied a constantly expanding universe. The observations carried out in the following years verified that the universe is constantly expanding.
In order to gain a clearer understanding of this, let us imagine the universe to be the surface of a balloon being inflated. In the same way that the more the balloon is inflated, the further away the points on its surface move from one another, celestial bodies also move away from one another as the universe expands. This was theoretically discovered by Albert Einstein, regarded as one of the greatest scientists of the 20th century. However, in order to avoid violating the "static universe model" that was generally accepted at that time, Einstein laid that discovery aside. He would later describe this as the greatest blunder of his life. 2
This fact was explained in the Qur'an in a time when telescopes and similar technological advancements were not even close to being invented. This is because the Qur'an is the Word of Allah: the Creator and Ruler of the entire universe.

p.s. - SubhanAllah. Imagine an illeterate man(pbuh) 1400 years ago. How many years ago? 1400 years ago saying something like "the universe is expanding". come on guys gimme a break. if you haven't opened your mind yet. it is time.
Reply

czgibson
05-25-2006, 10:41 PM
Greetings Muhammad,

Thanks for giving an answer to my question. It's nice to have received one at last!

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Hello czgibson/root,
We're not the same person, I promise! :)

Scientists who made scientific claims in the past are not comparable to the Qur'an for a number of reasons, the first that springs to mind being that the Qur'an has always been considered a book of fact; knowledge from One who Knows everything.
Another reason that springs to mind is that scientists such as Aristarchus made clear pronouncements, such as "The Earth revolves around the Sun", whereas the Qur'an's supposed scientific information is clouded in ambiguous phrases that often have to be stretched to accommodate the discoveries of modern science. So, basically, unclear statements later interpreted in new ways in the light of the thinking of others are regarded as divine, whereas clear statements constituting original thought by ancient Greeks are not?

This is in contrast to people who make "claims" and perhaps even guess at what they think has a possiblity of being true. Such people may have predicted one thing right, yet something else may have been wrong. The Qur'an, on the other hand, has always stated consistent information, none of which has been proven wrong.
You're right - these scientists claimed many things, some of which turned out to be true and some of which didn't. That is part of scientific discovery. In the case of the Qur'an, it will only provide consistently correct information if that is the result you want to see. To a non-believer these claims simply don't stand up. See HeiGou's posts above showing the contradictions he sees between the Qur'an and current scientific thinking. In other words, the Qur'an's accuracy seems to be hit and miss in the same way that the ideas of the ancient scientists were.

Your second point gets into other areas, such as the life of the Prophet (pbuh), which we could perhaps discuss later on. I'd like for now to ask if you can see, given what I've said here so far, how an atheist could find it odd that Democritus and Aristarchus are not regarded as being divinely inspired, since they appear to qualify under similar criteria to those by which the Qur'an is afforded such a judgment.

Greeting cool jannah,

format_quote Originally Posted by cool jannah
The kuffar have to understand before raising there futile objections on the scientific facts that we are not trying to proove that Qur'an is the true revelation just because it revelas some astonishing information about the established scientific facts that we have learnt today.
Um, that's exactly what you're trying to do. See here:

Imagine an illeterate man(pbuh) 1400 years ago. How many years ago? 1400 years ago saying something like "the universe is expanding". come on guys gimme a break. if you haven't opened your mind yet. it is time.
Peace
Reply

Sohrab
05-25-2006, 10:56 PM
When sometimes i feel overwhelmed with the things around me, when I feel that I have done my best, but things don't seem in my favor, when i look around and find nothing to count on or to call for help, when it seems as if it might be over for me, I'm glad that Allah is always there to listen to me.

We all go thru such times, and we all know that in those times deep inside we do call someone. But some people would just never admit it.

Prayers


"He it is Who maketh you to go on the land and the sea till, when ye are in the ships and they sail with them with a fair breeze and they are glad therein, a storm- wind reacheth them and the wave cometh unto them from every side and they deem that they are overwhelmed therein; (then) they cry unto Allah, making their faith pure for Him only: If Thou deliver us from this, we truly will be of the thankful.

Yet when He hath delivered them, behold! they rebel in the earth wrongfully. O mankind! Your rebellion is only against yourselves. (Ye have) enjoyment of the life of the world; then unto Us is your return and We shall proclaim unto you what ye used to do.

(Quran: Sura Younus: 22, 23)
Reply

HeiGou
05-27-2006, 12:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Actually you have misunderstood me: I meant to say that mountains look like cow pats, not like pegs.
And what exactly do you mean by "cow pats"? Perhaps I have misunderstood what you mean by it, because I still disagree.
I mean like an up-turned bowl, not like a pencil.

So neither looks like a mountain at all. Mountains are not small, they are not cylindrical, they do taper, but not much. They often tend to be as big across as they are high and sometimes more so.
Obviously, a mountain is not going to be the same size as a tent peg, but the similarity in their function remains.
I think that the question of their function remains open and even to talk of their function presupposes a Creator.

I would be much happier about these articles if they came from geology sites and not religious ones. I would not expect to go to Islamonline or anything called Quranicstudies.com and find serious scientists.
Fair enough, but these religious sites are quoting renowned scientists, so there must be some truth in their words, no?
I would have to be sure that they are quoting fairly - there have been cases of Western scientists objecting to what they see as misrepresentation of their views.

[quopte]It also holds a fingernail. The Quran mentions neither.
But at the very least, it seems quite coincidental that the tip of the finger also holds a very unique and precise component of a human, and that such a precise component is associated with resurrection. [/quote]

It doesn't seem co-incidental to me. The finger is simply an extremity we use a lot - other parts of the body are also unique.
Reply

Muhammad
05-29-2006, 06:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
We're not the same person, I promise! :)
Sorry, I assumed yours and root's replies were making the same point, so I addressed both of you :).

Another reason that springs to mind is that scientists such as Aristarchus made clear pronouncements, such as "The Earth revolves around the Sun", whereas the Qur'an's supposed scientific information is clouded in ambiguous phrases that often have to be stretched to accommodate the discoveries of modern science.
I don't agree with this. While there are some Qur'anic verses that are over-stretched by individuals, there are many that are quite clear, such as the following (which were mentioned earlier) regarding the function/benefit of mountains:

We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them… (Qur'an, 21:31)

And the mountains, He made them firm (Qur'an, 79:32)

And He has cast great mountains in the earth lest it might be convulsed with you, and rivers and roads that you may go aright (Qur'an, 16:15)

He created the heavens without pillars as you see them, and put mountains upon the earth lest it might convulse with you... (Qur'an, 31:10)

So, basically, unclear statements later interpreted in new ways in the light of the thinking of others are regarded as divine, whereas clear statements constituting original thought by ancient Greeks are not?
But is this actually the case? You have made a number of assumptions here. I have already mentioned that many verses are very much clear and further to this, they do not require "new ways" of interpretation. Modern advancements in science can deepen our understanding of certain scientific aspects of the Qur'an and hence strengthen our faith, yet this does not mean that they have been interpreted in "new ways".

I find it quite strange that you assert a third false implication that the Qur'an was copied from elsewhere, and this has no basis whatsoever.

In the case of the Qur'an, it will only provide consistently correct information if that is the result you want to see. To a non-believer these claims simply don't stand up. See HeiGou's posts above showing the contradictions he sees between the Qur'an and current scientific thinking. In other words, the Qur'an's accuracy seems to be hit and miss in the same way that the ideas of the ancient scientists were.
Well I don't find HeiGou's posts convincing at all. Nowhere has he proved that the Qur'an is in contradiction to scientific thinking. If anything, we have only seen that many geologists don't even know about the function of mountains while there are some that put forward evidence for it; yet this is far from being a contradiction.

Your second point gets into other areas, such as the life of the Prophet (pbuh), which we could perhaps discuss later on.
I thought it was relevant to bring in the context and history of the Qur'an, especially since you now brought in an implication that the Qur'an was partly or wholly copied from elsewhere. Greek scientists they mave been, and years of education and experimentation might have been what lead them to make their predictions; yet on the other hand we have a man with no such education or knowledge whose statements are remarkably accurate. Is it such a wonder that he is regarded as having received revelation, while such others as have produced no such miraculous work are not?

Peace.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
05-29-2006, 07:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I mean like an up-turned bowl, not like a pencil.
That's observable. Are mountain roots observable? Can someone find out about the long extension of mountains beneath the surface?
Reply

czgibson
05-29-2006, 08:22 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
While there are some Qur'anic verses that are over-stretched by individuals, there are many that are quite clear, such as the following (which were mentioned earlier) regarding the function/benefit of mountains:

We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them… (Qur'an, 21:31)

And the mountains, He made them firm (Qur'an, 79:32)

And He has cast great mountains in the earth lest it might be convulsed with you, and rivers and roads that you may go aright (Qur'an, 16:15)

He created the heavens without pillars as you see them, and put mountains upon the earth lest it might convulse with you... (Qur'an, 31:10)
OK, so the mountains are set firm. That's clear, but hardly earth shattering. What scientific information is miraculously contained here?

But is this actually the case? You have made a number of assumptions here. I have already mentioned that many verses are very much clear and further to this, they do not require "new ways" of interpretation. Modern advancements in science can deepen our understanding of certain scientific aspects of the Qur'an and hence strengthen our faith, yet this does not mean that they have been interpreted in "new ways".
Do you really believe that Muslims have interpreted these verses in terms of plate tectonics for as long as the Qur'an has existed?

I find it quite strange that you assert a third false implication that the Qur'an was copied from elsewhere, and this has no basis whatsoever.
Where did I imply this? Sorry if that's the way it sounds - it wasn't my intention.

Well I don't find HeiGou's posts convincing at all. Nowhere has he proved that the Qur'an is in contradiction to scientific thinking. If anything, we have only seen that many geologists don't even know about the function of mountains while there are some that put forward evidence for it; yet this is far from being a contradiction.
If people are claiming that the Qur'an conforms with current scientific thinking, when in fact it doesn't, that's what I call a contradiction.
Greek scientists they mave been, and years of education and experimentation might have been what lead them to make their predictions; yet on the other hand we have a man with no such education or knowledge whose statements are remarkably accurate. Is it such a wonder that he is regarded as having received revelation, while such others as have produced no such miraculous work are not?
Remarkably accurate? Which statements do you mean?

Peace
Reply

Muhammad
05-29-2006, 09:34 PM
Hello again,

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
OK, so the mountains are set firm. That's clear, but hardly earth shattering. What scientific information is miraculously contained here?
Remarkably accurate? Which statements do you mean?
Not only do the verses say that the mountains are set firm, but also that they were placed so that the earth would not convulse under us. When we apply modern knowledge to this concept, it is quite amazing that they fit together quite accurately.

Do you really believe that Muslims have interpreted these verses in terms of plate tectonics for as long as the Qur'an has existed?
Probably not. Though I don't see a reason why people could not understand the concept that mountains conferred stability to the earth. In modern times, when we do know about plate tectonics, it only further enhances the understanding.

Where did I imply this? Sorry if that's the way it sounds - it wasn't my intention.
I apologise if I misunderstood you; I was referring to the part where you compared the statement, "unclear statements later interpreted in new ways in the light of the thinking of others" with "clear statements constituting original thought".

If people are claiming that the Qur'an conforms with current scientific thinking, when in fact it doesn't, that's what I call a contradiction.
However, a contradiction does not arise by mere claims; it has to be proven.

Peace :).
Reply

czgibson
05-29-2006, 10:00 PM
Greetings Muhammad,
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Not only do the verses say that the mountains are set firm, but also that they were placed so that the earth would not convulse under us. When we apply modern knowledge to this concept, it is quite amazing that they fit together quite accurately.
How? My understanding of the current scientific view on this is as follows: scientists know mountains can be formed as a result of the collision of two plates (i.e. a convulsion of a sort); I'm not aware of any scientific opinion that says that the purpose of mountains is to keep the earth from convulsing under us. That doesn't sound like a scientific statement at all, but of course I could be wrong about this. Bring on the evidence.

Probably not. Though I don't see a reason why people could not understand the concept that mountains conferred stability to the earth. In modern times, when we do know about plate tectonics, it only further enhances the understanding.
Again, you'll need to explain to me how the theory of plate tectonics enhances your understanding of these verses.

If you can do that, it would prove my point: plate tectonics provides a new way to interpret the verses.

I apologise if I misunderstood you; I was referring to the part where you compared the statement, "unclear statements later interpreted in new ways in the light of the thinking of others" with "clear statements constituting original thought".
Sorry for not being clear - I can see how you got that impression, although it wasn't my intention. When I said "unclear statements later interpreted in new ways in the light of the thinking of others" I meant that the interpretations were derived from the thinking of others (i.e. modern scientists).

However, a contradiction does not arise by mere claims; it has to be proven.
Oh really? If you say that grass is orange, and I say it's blue, we contradict each other, do we not?

Peace :)
Reply

Muhammad
05-29-2006, 10:30 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
How? My understanding of the current scientific view on this is as follows: scientists know mountains can be formed as a result of the collision of two plates (i.e. a convulsion of a sort); I'm not aware of any scientific opinion that says that the purpose of mountains is to keep the earth from convulsing under us. That doesn't sound like a scientific statement at all, but of course I could be wrong about this. Bring on the evidence.
I mentioned some of the evidence in post #39, where Dr. Zaghlool El-Naggar states:

The stabilization of lithospheric plates by mountains is effected by their sinking deeply into the zone of weakness of the Earth (the asthenosphere) as wooden pegs sink into the ground to stabilize the corners of a tent.
.....

The above-mentioned discussion clearly indicates that one of the basic functions of the mountains on land is its role in stabilizing continental masses lest these would shake and jerk, making life virtually impossible on the surface of our planet.

And there was another quote aswell.

Again, you'll need to explain to me how the theory of plate tectonics enhances your understanding of these verses.

If you can do that, it would prove my point: plate tectonics provides a new way to interpret the verses.
I don't think that is the case at all. If I read the verse and understand from it that mountains stabilise the earth, how is its interpretation changed if I then read from geologists that this is indeed what mountains do? Knowledge of geology would enhance or confirm my understanding, but in no way offers a "new" interpretation since we are still talking about mountain stability.

Sorry for not being clear - I can see how you got that impression, although it wasn't my intention. When I said "unclear statements later interpreted in new ways in the light of the thinking of others" I meant that the interpretations were derived from the thinking of others (i.e. modern scientists).
Thank you for the clarification :).

Oh really? If you say that grass is orange, and I say it's blue, we contradict each other, do we not?
If I showed you the orange grass in my hands or by some other means, then your words would be meaningless unless you could provide evidence to prove the contrary. Simply saying that "grass is blue" might be a contradictory statement, but upon baseless grounds.

Peace.
Reply

Muhammad
05-29-2006, 10:41 PM
Greetings HeiGou,

I think that the question of their function remains open and even to talk of their function presupposes a Creator.
But there is evidence to indicate their biological function, and accepting such a biological function does not necessarily mean you must believe in God.

I would have to be sure that they are quoting fairly - there have been cases of Western scientists objecting to what they see as misrepresentation of their views.
Fair enough.

It doesn't seem co-incidental to me. The finger is simply an extremity we use a lot - other parts of the body are also unique.
But the fingerprint confers individuality and many other parts of the body are not so unique in this regard. Nevertheless, we should not forget the key message of the verse; any underlying points of interest only add to what is already there.

Peace :).
Reply

Muhammad
08-08-2006, 05:45 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by cool_jannah
czgibson, what are the odds of an illiterate man (pbuh) mentioning precise scientific facts that were discovered only recently? I cannot see how you can deny that. or you believe somebody else wrote it in the Qur'an right after the discoveries?
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I've never seen any evidence of what you speak of. People have presented me with the 'scientific miracles in the Qur'an' argument, but instead of "precise scientific facts" I just see vaguely poetic ramblings that could be interpreted in various ways, and which have obviously just been sought out by Muslim apologists after the discoveries they are alleged to relate to.
It is true that some people interpret verses that don't have any scientific references and extract meanings that go against the intent of a verse, however, it should be mentioned that whenever reference is made to subjects of a scientific nature - which are typically not very descriptive due to the fact that the Qur'an is a guidance for mankind as opposed to a book devoted to science - even in such brief references as these, the Qur'an conforms exactly to modern science and imparts knowledge that was unknown during the time in which it was revealed. I believe exampes of these have already preceded numerous times, and to name a couple include the formation of human life mentioned in the Qur'an, as well as the notion of orbits for the planets.

So it should be distinguished that while there are those with little knowledge of the interpretation of the Qur'an reading in scientific facts where they do not exist, there is a proper methodology that can be followed in order to extract examples of such verses.

Another imporpant point that needs to be understood is that the scientific aspect of the Qur'an is but one of its many miracles and not the only amazing feat performed by an illiterate man.

Peace. :)
Reply

czgibson
08-08-2006, 06:16 PM
Greetings Muhammad,
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
It is true that some people interpret verses that don't have any scientific references and extract meanings that go against the intent of a verse, however, it should be mentioned that whenever reference is made to subjects of a scientific nature - which are typically not very descriptive due to the fact that the Qur'an is a guidance for mankind as opposed to a book devoted to science - even in such brief references as these, the Qur'an conforms exactly to modern science and imparts knowledge that was unknown during the time in which it was revealed.
This is simply not true. For a start, as you say, the Qur'an is often vague on these points (and I agree with you on the reason for this) - none of the Qur'an's "scientific knowledge" in these vague passages was known until after the relevant scientific discoveries. Before the scientific discoveries, the "scientific" phrases in the Qur'an would have been interpreted differently by commentators.

Aside from these "vague" examples, I know of no examples from the Qur'an that clearly show radical or supernatural foresight.

I believe exampes of these have already preceded numerous times, and to name a couple include the formation of human life mentioned in the Qur'an, as well as the notion of orbits for the planets.
Are you referring to the much-touted Qur'anic embryology? Where bones are formed before muscles, in contradiction with modern knowledge?

So it should be distinguished that while there are those with little knowledge of the interpretation of the Qur'an reading in scientific facts where they do not exist, there is a proper methodology that can be followed in order to extract examples of such verses.
Yes: wait for a scientific discovery, then search the Qur'an for any phrase that could be stretched in order to appear to be in agreement with it, then publicise the "miracle".

Peace
Reply

جوري
08-08-2006, 07:11 PM
Without further reading your comments...... I'll post a few facts with convictions
You are neither an Islamic scholar, well versed in Semitic languages mainly Arabic ... nor are you a scientist or a doctor or a neonatologist of any sort ... if you wish to discuss third party knowledge with the board. I'd be a little less cavalier about the sort of bravado you display in way of condescension rather than facts... Personally I couldn't care less what you are or what becomes of you ... you want to worship the devil ... money or yourself it is all very inconsequential....Al-Idris(1100–65?). A 12th-century Arab geographer and scientist, wrote one of the great medieval works of descriptive geography. He spent much of his early life traveling in North Africa and Spain. In 1145 he entered the service of Roger II, the Norman king of Sicily, and began a lifetime of work as a mapmaker and geographer. He made a planishere in silver for King Roger II, and described the world in Al-Kitab al-Rujari (Roger's Book), also entitled Nuzhat al-Mushtaq fi Ikhtiraq al-Afaq ... The great Roger the II crushed the globe Given to him by Al-Idrisi stating the Earth is flat...
the Earth was round for Muslims 1400 years ago how long has the "scientific west" been advanced of for that matter civilized "30. Wal-arda bada dhalika dahaha"
"31. Akhraja minha ma-aha wa maraaha"
"32. Wal-jibala arsaha"
"33. Mata-an lakum wa li an-aamikum",... even High Altitude hypoxia was described in the Quran.. فمن يرد الله ان يهديه يشرح صدره للاسلام ومن يرد ان يضله يجعل صدره ضيقا حرجا كانما يصعد في السماء كذلك يجعل الله الرجس على الذين لايؤمنون I can personally get into the period assigned for breast feeding in the quran and how it corresponds in real life to full myelination and disappearance of the babinski sign.... and since its wonders never cease, There are modern days doctors who study what it was in Joseph's shirt that has made Jacob regain back his sight with success and detail that will soon be published in esteemed medical journals.... You are not keeping up with history or science (Continuing education) or religion and I know you are not interested in a point by point debate, but have mustered the English language, and the art of condescension and that hardly qualifies for respectful debate ... with that being said I'd personally refrain from further engaging this "gent" on something that he clearly has no genuine interest in learning....
peace to you as well
Reply

Muhammad
08-09-2006, 01:07 AM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
none of the Qur'an's "scientific knowledge" in these vague passages was known until after the relevant scientific discoveries. Before the scientific discoveries, the "scientific" phrases in the Qur'an would have been interpreted differently by commentators.
That is quite a broad statement to make. Firstly, not all of the passages are as "vague" as you make out, for the verses on embryology are quite clearly referring to embryology and discuss the subject in vivid detail. So to claim, for instance, that nobody ever perceived the notion that embryology occurs in stages sounds rather far-fetched, especially since the stages mentioned in the Qur'an describe distinct shapes or forms. We have a thread about this issue here, discussing the fact that such knowledge was realised by Muslims in the 14th century, which has only been brought to light in the twentieth century.

Secondly, you are right that commentators interpret some verses differently when a verse has more than one valid meaning. So how does it discredit the value of the Qur'an if advancements in science simply aid our understanding of a meaning that was already present in a verse? In the context of embryology, recent science confirms and enriches what was already there; it is not as though nobody ever imagined the subject of embryology existing in the Qur'an before such advancements were made!

Aside from these "vague" examples, I know of no examples from the Qur'an that clearly show radical or supernatural foresight.
Well the "foresight" here is that such knowledge as the above did not exist at the time in which the Qur'an was revealed, therefore to have verses whose valid meanings impart this, is a miracle. Also note that there is a separate aspect of the miraculous nature of the Qur'an, which is predictions of the future (which you seem to have touched on in your post).

Are you referring to the much-touted Qur'anic embryology? Where bones are formed before muscles, in contradiction with modern knowledge?
Perhaps the following article may help us to understand the issue better: http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_se...main_cat_id=31

Yes: wait for a scientific discovery, then search the Qur'an for any phrase that could be stretched in order to appear to be in agreement with it, then publicise the "miracle".
I am not an interpreter of the Qur'an and nor are you as far as I know, but needless to say this is not the case at all, as I have explained above.

Peace.

P.S. I may move these posts into the thread about scientific miracles in the Qur'an, since they might be more relevant to that topic.
Reply

czgibson
08-09-2006, 01:46 AM
Greetings Muhammad,

I think you are right to say that this discussion would be more relevant in the 'scientific miracles' thread.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
That is quite a broad statement to make. Firstly, not all of the passages are as "vague" as you make out, for the verses on embryology are quite clearly referring to embryology and discuss the subject in vivid detail.
The Qur'anic discussion of embryology clearly relates to that subject; I would put it in the category of "no radical or supernatural foresight".

So to claim, for instance, that nobody ever perceived the notion that embryology occurs in stages sounds rather far-fetched, especially since the stages mentioned in the Qur'an describe distinct shapes or forms. We have a thread about this issue here, discussing the fact that such knowledge was realised by Muslims in the 14th century, which has only been brought to light in the twentieth century.
Not so. The fact that embryology occurs in stages was known centuries before the Qur'an, and I would not dream of claiming otherwise. Hippocrates, Galen and Aristotle all proposed this.

Secondly, you are right that commentators interpret some verses differently when a verse has more than one valid meaning. So how does it discredit the value of the Qur'an if advancements in science simply aid our understanding of a meaning that was already present in a verse?
Anyone who could be bothered could perform the same trick with almost any suggestive or poetic text.

Well the "foresight" here is that such knowledge as the above did not exist at the time in which the Qur'an was revealed, therefore to have verses whose valid meanings impart this, is a miracle.
I think you are far too easily impressed. I've given you three authors who knew that embryological development took place in stages centuries before the Qur'an was written.

I am not an interpreter of the Qur'an and nor are you as far as I know, but needless to say this is not the case at all, as I have explained above.
You're right - I'm obviously not a trained interpreter of the Qur'an, but I am a textual scholar, and I know a stretched interpretation when I see one.

As an afterthought, I'd like to include the following links. I fully expect them to be censored, due to the fact that they are clearly anti-Islamic, but I really do think they contribute something worthwhile to this discussion.

censored

Peace
Reply

جوري
08-09-2006, 02:01 AM
I don't want to steal Muhammad's thunder from this thread nor wish to interject anymore... I really hate wrangling.... but will tell you this much... until you are fluent in Arabic, have in fact read the Quran can you come and make the claim of being a "textual scholar" that is a profound statement to make when all you are relying on are your existential philosophies and websites with what appears to me as a clear intent.... There were many before you who have set on this task... Dr. Gary miller being one....if you want to make a valid point... one with reason.... then you should go to the roots convince us from there....
Reply

czgibson
08-09-2006, 02:14 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't want to steal Muhammad's thunder from this thread nor wish to interject anymore... I really hate wrangling....
I'm surprised. You seem to want to harangue me with irrelevant comments with every post I make these days. No hard feelings though - you're free to do what you like (within the rules of LI of course :)).

but will tell you this much... until you are fluent in Arabic, have in fact read the Quran can you come and make the claim of being a "textual scholar"
I've said I'm not a trained interpreter of the Qur'an. I am, however, a textual scholar, whether you like it or not. There are other books than the Qur'an, as I'm sure you are aware.

that is a profound statement to make when all you are relying on are your existential philosophies and websites with what appears to me as a clear intent....
What are existential philosophies exactly? You say I rely on them, so perhaps you can enlighten me as to what you mean by this.

There were many before you who have set on this task... Dr. Gary miller being one....if you want to make a valid point... one with reason.... then you should go to the roots convince us from there....
I am not interested in convincing you - you are obviously convinced of your beliefs, and I wish you all the very best with them. I really do. I simply want to explore the issues that arise from our differences in belief in the (perhaps vain) hope that we may together come closer to the truth. It may strike you as being offensive or insulting, and I wouldn't blame you for feeling that way, since I'm questioning your core beliefs, but if we are to approach truth then we must have the courage of our convictions and be able to tolerate such questioning. I'm sure your faith is strong enough to withstand any pressure I could apply, in any case.

Peace
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
08-09-2006, 02:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Not so. The fact that embryology occurs in stages was known centuries before the Qur'an, and I would not dream of claiming otherwise. Hippocrates, Galen and Aristotle all proposed this.

censored
Hi Callum,
The allegations concerning Qur'anic embryology resembling that of ancient greek, judaic or indian sources were debunked a long time ago; take this article for example:
http://www.quranicstudies.com/article76.html

I've also made a few posts on the subject myself in other threads. If you'd like we could dig up some of them and examine the arguments there.

Peace :)
Reply

جوري
08-09-2006, 03:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I'm surprised. You seem to want to harangue me with irrelevant comments with every post I make these days. No hard feelings though - you're free to do what you like (within the rules of LI of course :)).
Irrelevant? I think I commented thrice in the same day so I am not sure how that translates to "these days" please don't be surprised... unless you posted for the sake of just posting, not to engage an audiance? in which case please forgive my short comings...



format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I've said I'm not a trained interpreter of the Qur'an. I am, however, a textual scholar, whether you like it or not. There are other books than the Qur'an, as I'm sure you are aware.
you can be a textual scholar all you want my comment was clearly limited to your knowledge of Arabic and the Quran... when you refer to something as suggestive or poetic as is in one of your previous post... it tells me automatically you have no clue what you are talking about... Arabic is a very sophisticated language... one of its miracles was a divine request that anyone with exceptional poetic abilities to write a similar text if they wanted to prove the Quran false... ... There is a clear defined difference between... the Quran, the Hadith and poetry... in order for you to have a full appreciation you'd have to speak the language... I am not sure why this merits your very reactive reply?... I genuinely believe you'd argue this better if you spoke the language and read the Quran... It is a challenge but you are a man on a quest....

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
What are existential philosophies exactly? You say I rely on them, so perhaps you can enlighten me as to what you mean by this.
you delighted us with your list of names of known Atheists of whom Sartre and camus were known existentialists... one can only draw a conclusion that since you mention them in your post you must know something of their writing???Atheism was an integral facet of Sartre’s philosophy, and in fact he argued that atheism was a necessary consequence of anyone who took existentialism seriously if you were throwing those names in there for show then I misinterpreted your intentions, this then wouldn't apply to you .... my humble apologies....


format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I am not interested in convincing you - you are obviously convinced of your beliefs, and I wish you all the very best with them. I really do. I simply want to explore the issues that arise from our differences in belief in the (perhaps vain) hope that we may together come closer to the truth. It may strike you as being offensive or insulting, and I wouldn't blame you for feeling that way, since I'm questioning your core beliefs, but if we are to approach truth then we must have the courage of our convictions and be able to tolerate such questioning. I'm sure your faith is strong enough to withstand any pressure I could apply, in any case.

Peace
.......I do believe I have written that it is all inconsequential to me.... you are a self professed textual scholar with that I am sure it is visible to the naked eye especially a well trained one such as yours... one who has genuine interest in discovery, from one who wishes to write with a cruel and cutting edge of something he obviously has no deep understanding of....what was prophet Mohammed an astrologer? a poet? an embryologist? a pulmonologist? someone with a split personality as to be able write in completely two different texts even though he was illitrate? a fortune teller of future events? all this while setting the foundation for social structure, economics,politics, warefare, marriage, law to running a state some 1400 years ago? in Mesopotamia of all places.... I don't see how you can even begin to make a dent let alone "pressure" my core belief? Thanks for being presumptuous though it was a pleasure....
Reply

Muhammad
08-09-2006, 08:52 AM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Anyone who could be bothered could perform the same trick with almost any suggestive or poetic text.
This is why I specifically mentioned a "proper methodology" to indicate that while there are those who distort meanings, there are indeed valid interpretations that can be drawn from verses in which science is explicitly referred to.

Peace :)
Reply

czgibson
08-09-2006, 12:09 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Hi Callum,
The allegations concerning Qur'anic embryology resembling that of ancient greek, judaic or indian sources were debunked a long time ago; take this article for example:
http://www.quranicstudies.com/article76.html
This article also claims the bones are formed before the muscles, using weasel words to try and explain what seems to be a clear mistake in the Qur'an:

The above Ayah explicitly states that the bones are formed first and that this is followed by the formation of flesh or muscles which take their position around the bones (clothing the bones)....However, in this stage the primordia of muscle have not yet differentiated into definitive bones and muscles. As they do not have the shapes or forms of bones or muscles, the whole embryo at this stage does not have a human appearance.
I've also made a few posts on the subject myself in other threads. If you'd like we could dig up some of them and examine the arguments there.
That would be good.

Greeting Purest Ambrosia,

format_quote Originally Posted by Purest Ambrosia
Irrelevant? I think I commented thrice in the same day so I am not sure how that translates to "these days" please don't be surprised...
I should have said "today" - my apologies.

you can be a textual scholar all you want my comment was clearly limited to your knowledge of Arabic and the Quran...
Your phrasing suggested that it was only possible to be a textual scholar of the Qur'an, which is rather different.

when you refer to something as suggestive or poetic as is in one of your previous post... it tells me automatically you have no clue what you are talking about...
Why? The Qur'an is suggestive and poetic!

There is a clear defined difference between... the Quran, the Hadith and poetry...
Of course. Did I ever say that the Qur'an was a work of poetry? No - I said it was poetic. Big difference.

I genuinely believe you'd argue this better if you spoke the language and read the Quran... It is a challenge but you are a man on a quest....
Perhaps. My only possible reason for learning Arabic would be to read the Qur'an. Aside from that, I have no interest in the language.

you delighted us with your list of names of known Atheists of whom Sartre and camus were known existentialists... one can only draw a conclusion that since you mention them in your post you must know something of their writing???
Yes. I've read all of Camus and most of Sartre. That doesn't make me an existentialist though.

Atheism was an integral facet of Sartre’s philosophy, and in fact he argued that atheism was a necessary consequence of anyone who took existentialism seriously
Correct, but not the other way round. I included Camus and Sartre because they were atheists, not because they were existentialists (Camus didn't like being called an existentialist, by the way). Sorry for any confusion this has caused.

Peace
Reply

جوري
08-09-2006, 03:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,
Why? The Qur'an is suggestive and poetic!
Peace
The Quran ISN'T suggestive nor poetic ... to say so is to speak from ignorance... a well learned man such as yourself shouldn't be reading cliff notes or a translation, and little pamphlets of explanation ... that is if you were truly sincere in learning ... other than that I have lost interest in this dialogue.... I don't want to get lost in semantics with you.... My point was and still is ... if you are going to argue AGAINST something ... you should stand to be able to make your own argument, not base it on websites or translations.... Arabic is the second most difficult language after Chinese.... I doubt very much that you could learn it with some dexterity....... peace
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
08-09-2006, 06:08 PM
Hello Callum,

As the bones develop they are 'clothed' with developing muscle tissue. The Qur'an does not say that fully formed bones precede any development in muscle tissue. It says that bones begin to form and muscle tissue forms around it. Dr. Moore's own comments on this stage:
The continuation of Surah 23:14 indicates that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models, and then muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm...when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic conncetive tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiaeted. It later develops into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones’
Now discrediting Moore's understanding and interpretation of the Qur'anic passages may be possible, but discrediting his understanding of embryology is another matter altogether. His universally accepted work on embryology is now in it's 7th edition.

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
This article also claims the bones are formed before the muscles, using weasel words to try and explain what seems to be a clear mistake in the Qur'an
The article says [emphasis mine]:
The above Ayah explicitly states that the bones are formed first and that this is followed by the formation of flesh or muscles which take their position around the bones (clothing the bones). In fact the primordia or precursors of both the bone and muscle (in the form of myotomes and selertomes) are present together with those of bones and other tissues and organs in a collective primitive structure are formed during the first 40 days and is found in the Mudghah. However, in this stage the primordia of muscle have not yet differentiated into definitive bones and muscles. As they do not have the shapes or forms of bones or muscles, the whole embryo at this stage does not have a human appearance.
During the seventh week- the skeleton begins to spread throughout the body and the bones take their familiar shapes. The embryo then starts to acquire the human appearance. At the end of the seventh week and during the eighth week the muscles take their positions around the bone forms, "definitive muscles of trunk, limbs and head are well represented and foetus is capable of some movement".
Dr. Abdel-Rahman is absolutely correct. Though the development of both muscle and bone tissue is gradual, differentiation of the muscle tissue follows around the bone formations. As I said before, the Qur'an does not say that completely developed bones precede any development in muscle tissue. The Qur'an says that bones are clothed in muscle tissue. Can you raise any objection to the above article that is a little more factual and a little less subjective than "using weasel words"?

In addition, his article debunks the claim that the Qur'an takes from other sources in embryology by revealing the vast differences between Qur'anic embryology and that of other sources.

Regards
Reply

Protected_Diamond
08-11-2006, 01:09 AM
:sl: warhmatulahi wabarakathu

This topic will be inshaaAllah a guide for non-muslim to know the scientific miracles in qur'an and sunnah.
Any one who have any related article, please post it.

Mountains

Mountains are huge chunks of stone rocks. They exist on a bigger chunk called the Earth. Both are from the same material. Usually people consider that mountain are huge chunks which sit on another bigger chunk. But when Man probed various layers of the Earth, he found that mountain penetrate the fur layer of the Earth. This first layer is fifty kilometers Thick Mountain bases get linked with the Earth is armoring one. However to protect the upper layer of the Earth from being affected by the second moving layer Allah the exited in might fixed it by mountains which penetrate the Two layers satiation the first one Mountain fix the first layer just like the peg which foxes the tent. Therefor researchers found a root under each mountain which penetrates the layer of the Earth Researcher were amazed when they found that this fact has been revealed in the holy Own Quern says “And the mountains as pegs? “78:7” It also says And the mountain Hath He firmly fixed “79:32 Another Ironic verses He set on the earth mountains standing firm lest it should shake with you “31:15”

Source the Age of faith dawned” By: Skaikh Abdel Majeed El Zindai

The lowest district in the world


The lowest district in the world has been mentioned in the Quran before fourteen century. The Quranic verse which mentioned this fact has also given a correct information about a future event which later on took place & because the reason behind the embracement of many non Muslims to Islam. The above mentioned Quranic verse deals with the battle which took place between the Romans & the Persians at the early dawn of Islam.

The Romans represent people of the holy book “The Bible” whereas the Persians were idol & fire worshipers. However, in that battle the Persians defeated the Romans. The Muslims did not like it. They did not like idol & fire worshipers to defeat the followers of a holy book. Muslims felt sad. Therefore Allah condoled Muslims by informing them a future event which will take place. In that event, Quran informed, the Roman will defeat the Persians. Quran said “A.L.M. The Roman Empire has been defeated – In a Land close by; But they, (even) after (This) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious – Within a few years. With Allah is the decision, in the past and in the Future: On that Day shall The Believers rejoice – with the help of Allah. He helps whom He will, and He is Exalted in Might, Most Merciful. (It is) the promise of Allah. Never does Allah depart From His promise: But most men understand not The Know but the outer “Things” in the life of this world: “but of the End of things they are heedless” [30:1-7] This verse told its contemporaries what would be & what it promised tool place. One of the idol worshiper came to Abu-Baker the companion of the prophet (PBUH) & with an air of unbelieving he informed Abu-Baker about this Quranic verse which he heard from the prophet (PBUH). The unbeliever expressed his doubt about it but Abu-Baker told him that it will take place & the Romans will defeat the Persians. Then after seven years the Romans defeated the Persians & what the Quran had said happened. The Muslims became very happy & rejoiced the news. It revealed the miraculous nature of Quran & large numbers of non-believers embraced Islam. They came to conclusion that whatever the prophet Mohammed is saying is actually a divine revelation which comes from the creator & sustainer of this universe. The above Quranic verse revealed that Quran revealed many things which was unknown to human intellect, Quran & its content is a challenge to human intellect therefore Quran is a divine revelation. The scholar Elzindani said that he met a scholar of Geology in America. His name was Palma. He is one of the distinguished scholars in the field of Geology in America. There was a model of Earth with him. The high & low areas were clearly indicated on it. However, the American scholar was not aware of the place, which is in reality the lower district on the Earth. The scholar Elzidani told him that there is a Quranic verse, which informs us that a district near Jerusalem is the lowest district Earth. He told the American scholar that in the above mentioned the word “close by” has been interpreted by former interpreters as of having two meanings, the first meaning is “more near” and the second meaning is “lower”. They gave importance to the first meaning because it expressed for them the sense of Geographical nearness to the Land of Arabs. However the Land which is described as “more near” “Lower” is the lower areas of the Dead Sea. However, the American scholar mentioned some other districts in the world, which are known to be low areas such as the low areas in Holland. But Shaikh Zindani confirmed to him that the lowest area on Earth is located in somewhere between Jerusalem & the surrounding areas. He asked the American to rotate the Earth embodied to confirm this fact. However, the American scholar rotated the Embodiment of Earth. He found many low areas on it, but when he came to the area mentioned by Zindani to be the lowest area in the Earth he found an arrow which point at it and indicate that it is the lowest place on Earth. The American scholar said that it is a true fact, Shaikh Zindani informed him that it is the Quran, which clarified this fact before fourteen century. It sib the Quran which came from Allah Who knows the reality of each & every thing.

Source “The Age of Faith dawned” By Shaikh Abdel Majeed Elzindani

:w: warhmatulahi wabarakathu
Reply

i_m_tipu
08-17-2006, 07:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umm Salamah
:sl: warhmatulahi wabarakathu

This topic will be inshaaAllah a guide for non-muslim to know the scientific miracles in qur'an and sunnah.
Any one who have any related article, please post it.

Mountains

Mountains are huge chunks of stone rocks. They exist on a bigger chunk called the Earth. Both are from the same material. Usually people consider that mountain are huge chunks which sit on another bigger chunk. But when Man probed various layers of the Earth, he found that mountain penetrate the fur layer of the Earth. This first layer is fifty kilometers Thick Mountain bases get linked with the Earth is armoring one. However to protect the upper layer of the Earth from being affected by the second moving layer Allah the exited in might fixed it by mountains which penetrate the Two layers satiation the first one Mountain fix the first layer just like the peg which foxes the tent. Therefor researchers found a root under each mountain which penetrates the layer of the Earth Researcher were amazed when they found that this fact has been revealed in the holy Own Quern says “And the mountains as pegs? “78:7” It also says And the mountain Hath He firmly fixed “79:32 Another Ironic verses He set on the earth mountains standing firm lest it should shake with you “31:15”

Source the Age of faith dawned” By: Skaikh Abdel Majeed El Zindai

The lowest district in the world


The lowest district in the world has been mentioned in the Quran before fourteen century. The Quranic verse which mentioned this fact has also given a correct information about a future event which later on took place & because the reason behind the embracement of many non Muslims to Islam. The above mentioned Quranic verse deals with the battle which took place between the Romans & the Persians at the early dawn of Islam.

The Romans represent people of the holy book “The Bible” whereas the Persians were idol & fire worshipers. However, in that battle the Persians defeated the Romans. The Muslims did not like it. They did not like idol & fire worshipers to defeat the followers of a holy book. Muslims felt sad. Therefore Allah condoled Muslims by informing them a future event which will take place. In that event, Quran informed, the Roman will defeat the Persians. Quran said “A.L.M. The Roman Empire has been defeated – In a Land close by; But they, (even) after (This) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious – Within a few years. With Allah is the decision, in the past and in the Future: On that Day shall The Believers rejoice – with the help of Allah. He helps whom He will, and He is Exalted in Might, Most Merciful. (It is) the promise of Allah. Never does Allah depart From His promise: But most men understand not The Know but the outer “Things” in the life of this world: “but of the End of things they are heedless” [30:1-7] This verse told its contemporaries what would be & what it promised tool place. One of the idol worshiper came to Abu-Baker the companion of the prophet (PBUH) & with an air of unbelieving he informed Abu-Baker about this Quranic verse which he heard from the prophet (PBUH). The unbeliever expressed his doubt about it but Abu-Baker told him that it will take place & the Romans will defeat the Persians. Then after seven years the Romans defeated the Persians & what the Quran had said happened. The Muslims became very happy & rejoiced the news. It revealed the miraculous nature of Quran & large numbers of non-believers embraced Islam. They came to conclusion that whatever the prophet Mohammed is saying is actually a divine revelation which comes from the creator & sustainer of this universe. The above Quranic verse revealed that Quran revealed many things which was unknown to human intellect, Quran & its content is a challenge to human intellect therefore Quran is a divine revelation. The scholar Elzindani said that he met a scholar of Geology in America. His name was Palma. He is one of the distinguished scholars in the field of Geology in America. There was a model of Earth with him. The high & low areas were clearly indicated on it. However, the American scholar was not aware of the place, which is in reality the lower district on the Earth. The scholar Elzidani told him that there is a Quranic verse, which informs us that a district near Jerusalem is the lowest district Earth. He told the American scholar that in the above mentioned the word “close by” has been interpreted by former interpreters as of having two meanings, the first meaning is “more near” and the second meaning is “lower”. They gave importance to the first meaning because it expressed for them the sense of Geographical nearness to the Land of Arabs. However the Land which is described as “more near” “Lower” is the lower areas of the Dead Sea. However, the American scholar mentioned some other districts in the world, which are known to be low areas such as the low areas in Holland. But Shaikh Zindani confirmed to him that the lowest area on Earth is located in somewhere between Jerusalem & the surrounding areas. He asked the American to rotate the Earth embodied to confirm this fact. However, the American scholar rotated the Embodiment of Earth. He found many low areas on it, but when he came to the area mentioned by Zindani to be the lowest area in the Earth he found an arrow which point at it and indicate that it is the lowest place on Earth. The American scholar said that it is a true fact, Shaikh Zindani informed him that it is the Quran, which clarified this fact before fourteen century. It sib the Quran which came from Allah Who knows the reality of each & every thing.

Source “The Age of Faith dawned” By Shaikh Abdel Majeed Elzindani

:w: warhmatulahi wabarakathu
:salamext:
this is something new to me
JajakAllaah sister:statisfie :statisfie :statisfie
Reply

QuranStudy
08-17-2006, 03:48 PM
The Quran says that Allah created man from a clot of blood. This is scientifically inaccurate. Can anybosy please explain whether I am seeing things wrong?

Thanks.
Reply

QuranStudy
08-17-2006, 07:03 PM
Did our Prophet have access to Greek scholarly works?

Peace.
Reply

chacha_jalebi
08-17-2006, 07:14 PM
no

bcos in makkah there was only the Quraysh & they had visitors from all over arabia, and RasoolAllah (saw) had contact with christians, when he used to trade, but i dont think greek scholars wud b der, bcos their ideology wud hav been mashed up b the quraysh :D:D:D because they wouldnt have tolerated another religion, so theres no way that its true!! just a myth by wannabes :p :D:D
Reply

Samee
08-17-2006, 08:43 PM
:sl:

(22:5)
O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).


This verse also mentions a leech like clot as one of the stages. This refers to a specific stage in the development of a baby, which occurs after conception, in which the embryo looks like a clot of blood.

:w:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
08-17-2006, 09:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
The Quran says that Allah created man from a clot of blood. This is scientifically inaccurate. Can anybosy please explain whether I am seeing things wrong?
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Did our Prophet have access to Greek scholarly works?
:sl:

Both of these questions are answered here:
http://www.quranicstudies.com/article76.html

From the above it says:
7.2 The second phase of embryo development
This is subdivided as follows
i) The 'Alaqah stage
ثُمَّ خَلَقْنَا النُّطْفَةَ عَلَقَةً
"Then (thumm) We made the drop into an 'Alaqah". (Surah Al-Mu 'minun, Ayah 14)
In Arabic the word ‘Alaqah in fact has several meanings;
  • something which clings or a suspended thing (Ref: 7B, 5/440: 1D, 4/125: 2D, 4/1529: 3D, 343: 4D, 10/267: 5D, 7/20)
  • a leech-like structure (Ref: 9A, 3/242: 20A, 2/281: 7B, 5/139: 2D, 4/1529: 3D, 343: 4D, 10/267)
Amazingly each of these terms can be applied to the developing embryo with stunning precision. All of these terms encompassed by the word ‘Alaqah describe the appearance of the embryo as well as its relationship with the womb. From the discussion below it becomes clear that the embryo resembles a primitive multicellular organism which is attached to a host and feeding on its blood.
a) something which clings
Modern science informs us that once the egg has been fertilised in the Fallopian tube it undergoes successive divisions to form a ball like structure of 12-16 cells by the third day. This structure is called a blastocyst and it reaches the uterus in 4 to 5 days. The blastocyst then lies free in the uterine secretions for a further 2 days. About a week after fertilisation the blastocyst begins to attach and implant into the uterine wall. By the 11th to 12th day it is completely embedded in the uterine wall. At this stage chorionic villosities begin to develop like roots in the soil, these draw nourishment from the uterus necessary for the blastocyst's growth. These formations cover the whole blastocyst and make it literally cling to the uterus. By the end of the second week implantation is complete. Inside the blastocyst the embryo is anchored to the wall of the chorionic cavity by a connecting stalk. Hence, these different ways of clinging and attachment seem to represent the most dominant features from day 7 to 21, and are perfectly described in the Qur'anic description by the word ‘Alaqah. For greater detail see S. Hussain (1986) ‘Al-‘Alaq:the mystery explored, Ark Journal, London, pp. 31-36.
b) a suspended thing
The 3 week old embryo inside the blastocyst which is embedded in the uterine wall is seen to be suspended in the chorionic cavity by means of the connecting stalk and is surrounded by the amniotic cavity and the yolk sac. Therefore, the term ‘Alaqah accurately describes the suspended embryo after it has been implanted.
c) a leech-like structure
The word ‘Alaqah can also be translated as ‘leech like structure'. The leech is a elongated pear shaped creature which thrives on blood sucking. At this stage of development the embryo from top view does bear a resemblance to a leech. This resemblance is even more marked if the 24 day old embryo is seen from the side. It is also interesting to note that the embryo is now dependent on the maternal blood for its nutrition and behaves very much like a leech!. (For greater detail see Moore, KL. ‘A scientists interpretation of references to embryology in the Qur'an.' Journal of the Islamic Medical Association of US and Canada, 1986, 18:15, and Moore, KL. and Azzindani, AMA.: "The Developing Human, Clinically Orientated Embryology, With Islamic Additions". 3rd Ed., Dar Al-Qiblah and WB Saunders).
In conclusion, whichever of the above terms are used to translate the word ‘Alaqah they are all stunningly accurate descriptions of the embryo at this stage in it's development as confirmed by modern science.
Reply

Abu Zakariya
11-02-2006, 11:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya
I agree with czgibson. This has gone to far.

At best, we can say that it is interesting that the verse mentions the tips of the fingers and that it maybe indicates something. At best. To call it a scientific miracle is to overdo it, to say the least.
The commentary in the translation of the meaning of the Qur'an (The Noble Qur'an) of this verse mentions this issue, so I would recommend everyone to read that short commentary for one explanation of this. It's certainly not my business to comment on the verse the way I did.
Reply

czgibson
11-03-2006, 08:22 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya
The commentary in the translation of the meaning of the Qur'an (The Noble Qur'an) of this verse mentions this issue, so I would recommend everyone to read that short commentary for one explanation of this. It's certainly not my business to comment on the verse the way I did.
It might be best to mention whose commentary and whose translation, as there are many.

Peace
Reply

Abu Zakariya
11-04-2006, 07:00 AM
The Noble Qur'an by Khan and Hilali.

I'm sorry for being unclear, I assumed everyone knew that "the Noble Qur'an" is that particular translation.
Reply

czgibson
11-04-2006, 07:54 PM
Greetings,

Here is a page from Amazon that lists a few different 'Noble Qurans'.

I'm not trying to be pedantic, just spreading information.

Peace
Reply

i_m_tipu
11-06-2006, 04:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Here is a page from Amazon that lists a few different 'Noble Qurans'.

I'm not trying to be pedantic, just spreading information.

Peace
format_quote Originally Posted by [url
www.amazon.co.uk][/url]
The Koran: Noble Quran - Translation and Commentary by T.B. Irving (Paperback - Dec 1988)

Buy new: £10.94 Usually dispatched within 4 to 6 weeks
Used & new from £10.94




The Koran: Noble Quran - Arabic Text and English Translation by T.B. Irving (Paperback - Dec 1992)


Used & new from £119.48
What different Qur’an u find there.

peace
Reply

czgibson
11-06-2006, 02:20 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by i_m_tipu
What different Qur’an u find there.
This one:

The Noble Quran: A New Rendering of Its Meaning in English by Abdalhaqq Bewley and Aisha Bewley

Peace
Reply

Muhammad
11-06-2006, 02:22 PM
Greetings Callum,

I think this is the one that is being referred to:

http://www.amazon.com/Noble-Quran-Mu.../dp/996074079X

It is actually available online, but I don't think they include the footnotes.
Reply

- Qatada -
11-06-2006, 02:24 PM
If you mean the Muhsin Khan Translation, and others such as Sahih International.

They can be found here insha'Allaah:


http://www.quranicrealm.com



:salamext:
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