how christian women view muslim women

[sheerheart1]

Alot christian women and women of other faiths. See a woman walk down the street,
dressed in hijaab and abeyaah and instantly think to themselves look at that poor woman,
oppressed it to wearing those horrible clothes, her hair is covered .
Then thinking we are programmed in to wearing such clothing , and to cover our hair,
without even stopping to think maybe we like wearing this mode of dress,
That its just normal attire for us to wear.
Little do they realize they are the ones actually being programmed and brainwashed,
by the media and magazines and fashion houses they are actually being told what to wear and how they should look,.
During talking to my own family on this subject and my own experiances,
with also my family being christians and me being the only muslim in the household.
They have found it very strange that a person they loved and knew who ran after the latest fashion,
and modern haircuts to keep up with the fashionable trends and going out most of the time having a good time.
Had now changed and had turned a new corner in thier life embrassed Islam was covered up no longer wearing the fashionable clothes gone were the modern haircuts aslo, and was dressed in hijaab and abeyah, i must tell you they had a very serious shock.
When i was asked by them why was i doing this to myself and torturing myself with this attire i now wore they said be free wear what you want be the same as you were before little miss fashion.
My reply to them was look don't you know your the ones being programmed told what to wear even how you hair should be cut even to how thin or fat you should be is that freedom,they gave no reply just a look.(probably thinking i had gone mad)
I also said to them actually i feel more freer now i am covered because my life is not being dictated to by media in how to dress and ho, now i dress for Allah and according to islamic law .
My sister then asked me then how are you free ,i said look i am still me i have'nt changed .
Just i have faith in God and i am trying to obey his laws that he has commited me to do,
i am no longer running after fashion the most fashionable of hair cuts i know longer waste my time with going out and partying in clubs and bars and the more i learn about islam the more in love with it i fall i said to her before i was mis-guided now i am guided alhamduilah that i don't want that life any more that has no meaning having an empty heart and now its full with hope and love for God and because God loves me she thought i was crazy and still does.
My mother was not to happy and could not come to terms with this that her daughter could give up her life of modernization,
and was now sitting in her lounge dressed as she called it like a black bat,
because i was wearing black hijaab and abeyaah she asked me who had brainwashed me i laughed and said no one i just love Allah, she replied oh well this is just a passing phase your going through you will soon be back to your old self partying and the daughter i had before dressing as you did before.
Alhamdulilah i have neither changed i am still a muslimah my faith is alhamdulilah stronger than it ever has been Almighty Allah is keeping me on the straight path ameen.
So my saying is for those who think we are oppressed a little bit of poetry for you.
We are muslim women our hijaab(scarf) and our attire is what We require,
we are neither subjected to wear by force we are not oppressed,
may i stress we are muslim women we wear our attire because it's our desire,
and its what we require its the pride we wear for Allah .
We don't wear it for men.
we are not forced or subjected to wear its our choice and our attire,
so next time you see a woman of this dress just use your mind that we are not subjected and oppressed.
But take a long look at your own attire,
your skirts are short necklines too just take a long think how the media and magazines and fancy films glitter and balbels u try to keep up with and u say its us that are programmed and not you?.
are you sure about this???
For muslim women have not this desire just to cover and not be mans desire



:thankyou:

[renak]

I respect the woman who covers herself, and applaud her for trying to increase her respectability as a woman, and increase favor in the eyes of God. However, do not feel that I could be one of these women. Nor do I feel that I am viewed less favorably by men and/or God. I am somewhat of a slave to fashion, and love the positive response I receive from men when I am looking my best. Perhaps men are viewing me in a sexual manner. I believe that it is their weakness which allows themselves to succumb to sexual immorality. If they cannot view me as a woman who is not only comfortable with her sexuality, but also comfortable with her beliefs, then I really have no place for them in my life. It's called taking responsibility for ones actions.

In regards to me being programmed by the media, perhaps I am to an extent. However, I love looking great, and being attractive.

[cool_jannah]

I am somewhat of a slave to fashion, and love the positive response I receive from men when I am looking my best. Perhaps men are viewing me in a sexual manner. I believe that it is their weakness which allows themselves to succumb to sexual immorality. If they cannot view me as a woman who is not only comfortable with her sexuality, but also comfortable with her beliefs, then I really have no place for them in my life. It's called taking responsibility for ones actions.

In regards to me being programmed by the media, perhaps I am to an extent. However, I love looking great, and being attractive.

If I really love my wife..which I will Inshallah(cos im not married yet)..i would'nt want a single strange man to even look at my wife's beautiful face(forget about anyone daring to look at her in a sexual way). that is very impolite and immoral according to our standards.
Her beauty is not on display for unknown men or strangers to be looking at.
this is called real love. and trust me women who know the beauty of Niqab....they love it. it is something full of wisdom. orders of sharia are so beautiful..really it touches our hearts..and Allah, Subhanahu wa' Ta'ala tells us in the Qur'an about the nature of human beings. the rules of sharia are completely compatible with the nature of humans. whoever denies this is simply denying the reality.

[renak]

If I really love my wife..which I will Inshallah(cos im not married yet)..i would'nt want a single strange man to even look at my wife's beautiful face(forget about anyone daring to look at her in a sexual way). that is very impolite and immoral according to our standards.
Her beauty is not on display for unknown men or strangers to be looking at.
this is called real love. and trust me women who know the beauty of Niqab....they love it. it is something full of wisdom. orders of sharia are so beautiful..really it touches our hearts..and Allah, Subhanahu wa' Ta'ala tells us in the Qur'an about the nature of human beings. the rules of sharia are completely compatible with the nature of humans. whoever denies this is simply denying the reality.

Wouldn't the fact that you don't want another man to admire the beauty of your wife be a sign of jealousy? Is jealousy a sin in Islam?

I doubt that Niqab controls the desires of men. In all honesty, we are all sexual creatures. Men that I've known that were in the middle east for a long period of time tell that they developed sexual desires for fully clothed women. I don't believe that humans can control their sexuality. I for one will continue to use mine to my advantage. I really consider it no different than the little "indiscreet" love games and flirtations carried out by fully clothed women. Such flirtations are sexually rooted, and cause desire. It seems more honest to be upfront, and open about your sexuality. Just my two cents.....

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[i_m_tipu]

:salamext:

MasAllaah.....Sister sheerheart1

dressed in hijaab and abeyaah and instantly think to themselves look at that poor woman,
oppressed it to wearing those horrible clothes, her hair is covered .
Then thinking we are programmed in to wearing such clothing , and to cover our hair,

Reality is they(non-coverd woman) are very poor woman

they make themself nothing but a maketing goods :heated:
everybody in the street look them self as a lovely good(well finished, well looked) and cursing themseft:heated:
They forgot they r the mother nation(most beloving and repecfull)
i never respect such woman evenif she is my mother or my sister from my heart.


but Alhamdulillaah my mother is poius and part of my heart. i proud of my mother. i can die seven times for my mother as she use to say this word when i am child.


if they(non-coverd woman) ever realised they never bring meaninfull thing but cursing others.


They not only disobeying the releigon but also disrespecting their beloveing one

they not only make them very low human but also the woman nation

remenber the verse Allaah says
4:28
Allah wishes to lighten (the burden) for you; and man was created weak (cannot be patient to leave sexual intercourse with woman).


May Allaah mercy on them and guide them and give them pure knowledge.
Amen

[irsha]

If it makes you feel good to cover from head to toe, thats your business and good lusk to you. Personally, I don't thnk its necessary, and I really feel sorry that you van never see the beautiful smile of your loved ones anywhere but at home. A smile is one of societies greatest gifts to each other, and you deprive yourselfs of this and us. One of the fears that non muslims have of Islam, is it seems like such a drab, sad religion, partly because we never see you smile. If you love your life s much, why not show it? ITs like cutting off a puppies tail, so it cannot be wagged to show you are happy- but then again, even puppies are haram in Islam aren't they?

[renak]

I don't think that they are disrespecting themselves by refusing to cover up. Instead, I view it as annoying the men who selfishly desire them for their own sexual pleasure. The men need to work this out between themselves and Allah.

Men are weak in regard to controlling their sexuality. This is not something that they should ignore. Instead of expecting someone else to take care their weakness (i.e. expecting women to cover up), they need to work on their own issues. By being unable to take responsibility for their own weakness, they are being lazy.

[cool_jannah]

Wouldn't the fact that you don't want another man to admire the beauty of your wife be a sign of jealousy? Is jealousy a sin in Islam?

How can it be jealousy? Think about what you wrote. Jealousy comes into play only when YOU desire something for YOURSELF -"envious of someone else’s achievements or advantages". It is jealosy i guess but in a different way...its more protecting the honour and respect of my wife. and if you consider other men looking at your wife as an act of not being jealous toward that person then we definitely have definition problems as to what exactly jealosy is.

I doubt that Niqab controls the desires of men. In all honesty, we are all sexual creatures. Men that I've known that were in the middle east for a long period of time tell that they developed sexual desires for fully clothed women. I don't believe that humans can control their sexuality. I for one will continue to use mine to my advantage. I really consider it no different than the little "indiscreet" love games and flirtations carried out by fully clothed women. Such flirtations are sexually rooted, and cause desire. It seems more honest to be upfront, and open about your sexuality. Just my two cents.....

niqab does lessen the feelings of sexual desires amongst men..unless she is wearing a tight niqab...which wud be again forbidden. if you don't know who and what that person is inside the niqab..how can you develop feelings for her? its impossible. i don't see how can a person figure out whether the person inside is a 15 year old or a 50 year old or a mother of 6 children? it could be anybody.
i would even want my wife to wear gloves..so that nobody wud be able to see her beautiful hands either ;) ..although it is not required in Sharia:)

[renak]

How can it be jealousy? Think about what you wrote. Jealousy comes into play only when YOU desire something for YOURSELF -"envious of someone else’s achievements or advantages". It is jealosy i guess but in a different way...its more protecting the honour and respect of my wife. and if you consider other men looking at your wife as an act of not being jealous toward that person then we definitely have definition problems as to what exactly jealosy is.


niqab does lessen the feelings of sexual desires amongst men..unless she is wearing a tight niqab...which wud be again forbidden. if you don't know who and what that person is inside the niqab..how can you develop feelings for her? its impossible. i don't see how can a person figure out whether the person inside is a 15 year old or a 50 year old or a mother of 6 children? it could be anybody.
i would even want my wife to wear gloves..so that nobody wud be able to see her beautiful hands either ;) ..although it is not required in Sharia:)

It would make it more difficult.;D

However, I sometimes look at modestly covered people in public and visualize them naked. It doesn't matter if a person is covered or not, we all have sexual desire.
:okay:

May I ask why you think it isn't the mans responsibility to deal with his lust, opposed to making the woman deal with it for him?

[cool_jannah]

Instead, I view it as annoying the men who selfishly desire them for their own sexual pleasure. The men need to work this out between themselves and Allah. .

Its called being chaste and modest. Something lacking seriously in the western socities. I mean if you want to share your wife/husband with other people..it is your personal choice no one is forcing you. It is really unfortunate to know that you have such opinions about desiring other peoples wives/husbands. I mean you have problem with us even if we keep our wives to ourselves...you want us to become like you? switching wives/husbands every other night? (not that im personally talking about you renak)...we would definitely not want to share our wives with others. thats one of the reasons pork is forbidden in Islam. The food that you eat has an affect on your soul and your thinking. Thats why pork is haram in Islam. Do you know what a pig does in the night time? It switches its mate and goes around having sex with every other female pig. No offense but we don't behave like pigs.

Men are weak in regard to controlling their sexuality. This is not something that they should ignore. Instead of expecting someone else to take care their weakness (i.e. expecting women to cover up), they need to work on their own issues. By being unable to take responsibility for their own weakness, they are being lazy.

what do you know about the nature of men? if a man does not have feelings for a woman in his heart..than that man would definitely want to get a check up from a doctor. Allah says in The Noble Qur'an - An-Nur 24:30


Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them. Verily, Allâh is All-Aware of what they do.

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islâm), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allâh to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful.

In this verse the men are ordered first to lower their gaze..before the women. So it is clear that both sides have to put an effort in this regard

[i_m_tipu]

I don't think that they are disrespecting themselves by refusing to cover up. Instead, I view it as annoying the men who selfishly desire them for their own sexual pleasure. The men need to work this out between themselves and Allah.

Poor ...:giggling:



can i ask u a question

why woman (non-covered) make them stylist, caring their skin, warring tiny dress, doing everything (what make themself silly (not sexy {my opinion}) enough to make other weak or cursed) etc etc etc (u know better than me, i guess) in the street , in the office, in the desert, in the stadium(cheering woman), in the Atlanta, in the movie, in the school, in the college (oh!! I am tried I must say etc now) etc to make other (mostly man I guess again) only simile???

[Malsidabym]

I mean if you want to share your wife/husband with other people..it is your personal choice no one is forcing you. It is really unfortunate to know that you have such opinions about desiring other peoples wives/husbands. I mean you have problem with us even if we keep our wives to ourselves...you want us to become like you? switching wives/husbands every other night?

Do you honestly think that alot of people do this? :lol: :lol: ;D ;D Do you know anyone that does this? If so, you are associating with the wrong people. Seriously, the stuff you see on TV is not real, for most people.

[renak]

Poor ...:giggling:



can i ask u a question

why woman (non-covered) make them stylist, caring their skin, warring tiny dress, doing everything (what make themself silly (not sexy {my opinion}) enough to make other weak or cursed) etc etc etc (u know better than me, i guess) in the street , in the office, in the desert, in the stadium(cheering woman), in the Atlanta, in the movie, in the school, in the college (oh!! I am tried I must say etc now) etc to make other (mostly man I guess again) only simile???

I don't understand your question.

[cool_jannah]

It would make it more difficult.;D

However, I sometimes look at modestly covered people in public and visualize them naked. It doesn't matter if a person is covered or not, we all have sexual desire.

i seriously don't know what to say to you. i would consider that as your personal opinion..and at least not of the Christians in general..

May I ask why you think it isn't the mans responsibility to deal with his lust, opposed to making the woman deal with it for him?

“Tell the believers to lower their gaze.” (24:30)

“As for the one who feared the status of his Lord and controlled the desires of his soul then Paradise will be his abode.” (79:40-41)

“Indeed the hearing, sight and the heart - all of these will be questioned.” (17:36)

Hadith - Sahih Muslim 5372, Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah

I asked Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) about the sudden glance (that is cast) on the face (of a non-Mahram). He commanded me that I should turn away my eyes.

Hadith - Sunan of Abu Dawood, #4007, Narrated Abu Sa'id al-Khudri

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man should not look at the private parts of another man, and a woman should not look at the private parts of another woman.


The Noble Qur'an Al-Balad 90:8

Have We not made for him a pair of eyes?

The Noble Qur'an Al-Mulk 67:23
Say it is He Who has created you, and endowed you with hearing (ears), seeing (eyes), and hearts. Little thanks you give.

The Noble Qur'an Ghaafir 40:19

Allâh knows the fraud of the eyes, and all that the breasts conceal.

[renak]

Its called being chaste and modest. Something lacking seriously in the western socities. I mean if you want to share your wife/husband with other people..it is your personal choice no one is forcing you. It is really unfortunate to know that you have such opinions about desiring other peoples wives/husbands. I mean you have problem with us even if we keep our wives to ourselves...you want us to become like you? switching wives/husbands every other night? (not that im personally talking about you renak)...we would definitely not want to share our wives with others. thats one of the reasons pork is forbidden in Islam. The food that you eat has an affect on your soul and your thinking. Thats why pork is haram in Islam. Do you know what a pig does in the night time? It switches its mate and goes around having sex with every other female pig. No offense but we don't behave like pigs.

what do you know about the nature of men? if a man does not have feelings for a woman in his heart..than that man would definitely want to get a check up from a doctor. Allah says in The Noble Qur'an - An-Nur 24:30


Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them. Verily, Allâh is All-Aware of what they do.

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islâm), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allâh to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful.

In this verse the men are ordered first to lower their gaze..before the women. So it is clear that both sides have to put an effort in this regard

I'm not expecting anyone to change their views to suit me. I'm merely asking why men should not control their lust, and deal with their own weakness. Men are supposed to be stronger than women. This is should not be a hard request.

I do eat pork in great abundance. Let's not argue swine. I've raised them, slaughtered them, showed them in competition, and definitely have the advantage over your knowlege concerning this creature. I respect your opposition to swine. However, I want to assure you that my ample consumption of bacon and ham have not caused me to lead a swinger lifestyle.

What do I know about the nature of men? Well, it's true that I'm not a man, so I don't have the personal advantage. I do have a father, brother, cousins, son, ex-husband, and male friends, and I've dated many men. I also studied sexuality in college, and continue to do so on a regular basis. I think that most men would agree that they do not have to have feelings in their heart to fantasize, or even have sex with a woman. In fact, men are blessed with the ability to separate their emotions from their sexuality. If if a man was unable to separate his emotions from his sexuality, I would still expect him to take on the personal responsibility of dealing with his own weakness.

[i_m_tipu]

If you love your life s much, why not show it? ITs like cutting off a puppies tail, so it cannot be wagged to show you are happy- but then again, even puppies are haram in Islam aren't they?

i guess i may not need any toy or animanl to cheer me up (ascept my childhood) but children (who r the most beautiful and cutest thing on earth)

but it is understanding that u people depend on animal in state of child
Bcoz u(many of u) don't have good relation with ur partner

But Alhamdulillaah I m grateful to Allaah he grant me as a muslim
Where I can’t do any impure thing
We don’t allow to live like a Monkey but Human (the greatest ever creation)
And I will do love and do sacrifice for my partner and my children up to my level best InsAllaah.

[Malsidabym]

but it is understanding that u people depend on animal in state of child
Bcoz u(many of u) don't have good relation with ur partner

We don’t allow to live like a Monkey but Human (the greatest ever creation)
And I will do love and do sacrifice for my partner and my children up to my level best InsAllaah.

If I am understanding your broken english, I think you are assuming that all westerners have poor relationships (strange assumption), and want to live like a monkey. If this is really what you are saying, well, you are a little bit rude. If not, then I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[renak]

i seriously don't know what to say to you. i would consider that as your personal opinion..and at least not of the Christians in general..

“Tell the believers to lower their gaze.” (24:30)

“As for the one who feared the status of his Lord and controlled the desires of his soul then Paradise will be his abode.” (79:40-41)

“Indeed the hearing, sight and the heart - all of these will be questioned.” (17:36)

Hadith - Sahih Muslim 5372, Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah

I asked Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) about the sudden glance (that is cast) on the face (of a non-Mahram). He commanded me that I should turn away my eyes.

Hadith - Sunan of Abu Dawood, #4007, Narrated Abu Sa'id al-Khudri

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man should not look at the private parts of another man, and a woman should not look at the private parts of another woman.


The Noble Qur'an Al-Balad 90:8

Have We not made for him a pair of eyes?

The Noble Qur'an Al-Mulk 67:23
Say it is He Who has created you, and endowed you with hearing (ears), seeing (eyes), and hearts. Little thanks you give.

The Noble Qur'an Ghaafir 40:19

Allâh knows the fraud of the eyes, and all that the breasts conceal.

I appreciate the sayings above. However, could I not produce equal verses from the Quran which dealt with responsibility for ones own actions?

Actually this is my own opinion. But I would argue with anyone, regardless of their religion that they have sexual desires and fantasies. Some may choose not to admit to them, but they have them.

[cool_jannah]

A smile is one of societies greatest gifts to each other, and you deprive yourselfs of this and us.

my wife would have no business smiling to a strange man. Sorry but thats the way to preserve modesty and morality. who says she can't smile at a place outside their home? when there is nobody around she can smile as much as she wants.

If you love your life s much, why not show it? ITs like cutting off a puppies tail, so it cannot be wagged to show you are happy- but then again, even puppies are haram in Islam aren't they?

I love my wife not to show to others but for her pleasure and comfort. and with all due respect i consider it an act of shamelesness when there are people in public places showing their love to whoever wants to see..by kissing each other like animals would do. and i don't quite get your puppy thingy? what does an innocent puppy's tail getting cut have to do with this?

and puppies are not haram. touching them, kissing them, keeping them in the houses is haram

[renak]

I also want to state that if I was in an islamic country, I would cover myself out of respect.

I also want to state that most western people do not understand the covering of women, and when islamic people are in western countries, they need to respect the dress of the people. If they wish to cover themselves, then that is great, just don't assume that women who choose not to cover themselves are whores with little self respect.

In the West, women are expected to take responsibility for their sexuality, and men are expected to take responsibility for their sexuality. I must admit that men have difficulty (if they even try...lol) to take this responsibility. Nonetheless, as long as I live in such a society, I will continue to display my feminine attributes for my advantage. I don't consider it sleazy or degrading; instead, I consider it smart. If I had a daughter, I would encourage her to do the same.

If a man were to ever lower his gaze at me, I would lower my gaze at him.

[cool_jannah]

Actually this is my own opinion. But I would argue with anyone, regardless of their religion that they have sexual desires and fantasies. Some may choose not to admit to them, but they have them.

Admiting the fact that you have sexual desires does'nt mean that you flirt around the opposite sex..and one of the worst crimes that is adultry or fornication starts off with a nice gentle beautiful smile. So it is all about controlling your desires. This religion of Islam is all about controlling your Nafs(Soul/desire). Allah created those feelings..and ordered us to use them in a way which is good for us. We may not realize it though until we are in that situation. You can ask those people who are mentally disturbed all their lives just because of their unlawful relations with strange men/women. So use these desires in a proper way. Islam offers you the middle path...and
it is forbidden in Islam to behave like those popes who do not marrying at all. Sexual desires are a means of test for us. all the blessings and sowrrows are a test for a true believer.

[Knut Hamsun]

Admiting the fact that you have sexual desires does'nt mean that you flirt around the opposite sex..and one of the worst crimes that is adultry or fornication starts off with a nice gentle beautiful smile. So it is all about controlling your desires.

If they are YOURS, why don't you do something to harness them, instead of having someone else change b/c you can't control yourself. It is like a diet-fanatic asking that all food be covered/hidden and that no one should eat infront of them, right? Muslims believe in free will, right? Control your own self, I say.

Sexual desires are a means of test for us

So, why don't you cover your own eyes instead of a woman's body? That should pass the test, eh?

[renak]

Admiting the fact that you have sexual desires does'nt mean that you flirt around the opposite sex..and one of the worst crimes that is adultry or fornication starts off with a nice gentle beautiful smile. So it is all about controlling your desires. This religion of Islam is all about controlling your Nafs(Soul/desire). Allah created those feelings..and ordered us to use them in a way which is good for us. We may not realize it though until we are in that situation. You can ask those people who are mentally disturbed all their lives just because of their unlawful relations with strange men/women. So use these desires in a proper way. Islam offers you the middle path...and
it is forbidden in Islam to behave like those popes who do not marrying at all. Sexual desires are a means of test for us. all the blessings and sowrrows are a test for a true believer.

If a man or woman is going to commit adultry or fornication, they have already resigned to this fact, prior to viewing someone sexy. If a person can't control themselves when faced with desire, it means they harbor issues far greater than lust.

Let's say I get angry with my husband, and for a brief moment I want him dead. Luckily, I can control myself, and through rational thought processes, I will not shoot him. I think the same could/should be applied to sexual restraint. However, if an individual is so weak, they can't control their anger or lust, they are really no stronger than a small child, or animal. I believe that Allah wants us to mature and learn to control ourselves.

[Nicola]

That its just normal attire for us to wear.

I have a number of close Muslim girl friends...some married some divorced...though they cover their arms, legs...they do not wear the black full outfit (face covering)..I've never questioned them...but have seen other women covered..I believe, if the woman wants to wear this attire...I'm all for it and happy for them...if it is the husband telling the wife what to wear and she didn't want to wear such attire.....then I'd be on the side of the woman she should wear what she is comfortable with.

Little do they realize they are the ones actually being programmed and brainwashed,
by the media and magazines and fashion houses they are actually being told what to wear and how they should look,.

I agree totaly with you..and who runs the main media...Satan. It is true these people are brainwashed and being lead away from God.

I personaly do not keep up with fashion...I have my own style of dress and dress modestly. I have no need to show myself to men..because I am very happy and content in my heart and soul and do not need mans approval.

[i_m_tipu]

If I am understanding your broken english, I think you are assuming that all westerners have poor relationships (strange assumption), and want to live like a monkey. If this is really what you are saying, well, you are a little bit rude. If not, then I have no idea what you are trying to say.

well nobody make everybody happy

and i really not find any suitable word ecsept monkey
even thou read their erlier comment about us and Allaah

r we not monkey (dancing, jumping, rubbish joking, raping each other unlawful, Stealing, create noise, being shameless etc)

comment---Very interesting!! I think that’s why some scientist believe man had been a Monkey before....

acually i really wanted to say we r human not monkey

and we want to live like human (greatest creation on universe)

and islam made us to live like human.....Alhamdulillaah

i have a job to do bye..now

[cool_jannah]

If they are YOURS, why don't you do something to harness them, instead of having someone else change b/c you can't control yourself. It is like a diet-fanatic asking that all food be covered/hidden and that no one should eat infront of them, right? Muslims believe in free will, right? Control your own self, I say.

That's true. you spoke the truth. We ARE ordered to control ourselves before the women are ordered to cover themselves.

So, why don't you cover your own eyes instead of a woman's body? That should pass the test, eh?

Yes..its an order of Sharia to cover the eyes....but why does your 'instead' come in between..i mean 'instead of covering women's body' you say. Allah, Subhanahu wa Ta'ala makes the rules. and He has ordered the women to be modest and cover themselves up. Will you not be offended if I apply that argument of yours on your own mother, sister, daughter? yea thats right. So if you dont want your mother or sister to be 'uncovered' in public...don't expect that from believing women at least not the Muslims. funny? eh? your own unreasonable argument comes and slaps you in the face.

So the effort has to be on both sides. imagine the order being that men cover their eyes and women walk around shamelessly like animals(i mean uncovered). I don't get how can you people think of things like these.

[renak]

[QUOTE
I agree totaly with you..and who runs the main media...Satan. It is true these people are brainwashed and being lead away from God.

I personaly do not keep up with fashion...I have my own style of dress and dress modestly. I have no need to show myself to men..because I am very happy and content in my heart and soul and do not need mans approval.[/QUOTE]

I don't think that women always dress seductively for a mans approval. When women feel beautiful, they act beautiful, the day is much nicer. The desired woman also tends to be held in higher regard by men, and women. Of course I'm speaking for the society in the USA.

I'm curious as to why you feel Satan controls the media? Do you really feel that people who admire beauty are being brainwashed and lead away from God? This seems rather radical.

[Knut Hamsun]

Will you not be offended if I apply that argument of yours on your own mother, sister, daughter? yea thats right. So if you dont want your mother or sister to be 'uncovered' in public...don't expect that from believing women at least not the Muslims. funny? eh? your own unreasonable argument comes and slaps you in the face.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Could you please explain this? Thanks.

So the effort has to be on both sides. imagine the order being that men cover their eyes and women walk around shamelessly like animals(i mean uncovered). I don't get how can you people think of things like these.

I made this argument b/c I have read time and time again that women cover themselves to protect their modesty, which is otherwise violated by the lusty intentions/thinking of the men they encounter. I mean that I have hear it implied that "Allah requested it that way" b/c of the fault of men, not women. So it would follow that women can look at other women without being lusty lesbians,right? So, I stand by my argument. Excepting that you think "Allah commanded this", there is a valid argument to the need for men to cover their own eyes if they can't control their reactions to that which falls before them.

[renak]

I made this argument b/c I have read time and time again that women cover themselves to protect their modesty, which is otherwise violated by the lusty intentions/thinking of the men they encounter. I mean that I have hear it implied that "Allah requested it that way" b/c of the fault of men, not women. So it would follow that women can look at other women without being lusty lesbians,right? So, I stand by my argument. Excepting that you think "Allah commanded this", there is a valid argument to the need for men to cover their own eyes if they can't control their reactions to that which falls before them.

I don't understand why this practice is still enforced. The Quran was written when women were merely property of men. Time has elapsed, people have evolved. Shouldn't the interpretation of the Quran be different than it was when first written? You no longer accept slavery, or sex with nine year old girls which is mentioned in the Quran.

[cool_jannah]

I don't understand why this practice is still enforced. The Quran was written when women were merely property of men.

Correction - The Qur'an was not written. It was revealed.
This is not christianity. We don't change rules of God according to our needs. You have let your ignorance and frustration let loose finally.

Time has elapsed, people have evolved. Shouldn't the interpretation of the Quran be different than it was when first written? You no longer accept slavery, or sex with nine year old girls which is mentioned in the Quran.

Is all change good? I have to question that. I can say that people who dont follow the rules of God are becoming uncivilized and losing their sense of morality. Which is infact true. Your sense of progress is different than ours. Only the darkness of your grave can satisfy your ignorance. I mean all this time you were having a civil conversation. What happened suddenly? Felt like hurting somebodies feelings? I can quote the bible and talk about the filthiest stuff taken out of context. But anyway, its ok, i understand where you are coming from and I also inderstand that you are not hear to learn about Islam.

Feelings of human beings do not change over time. Is this so hard to understand? did people have different feelings and emtions 1400 years ago?
and this misconception of yours that somehow you are enlightened with humanistic and social intellect should be removed from your head. because you are not. you are following your desires. that is who your lord is. and you will be accountable for it on the day of reckoning. and i still think it is barbaric and uncivilized for women to be uncovered in public.

[moujahid]

and i still think it is barbaric and uncivilized for women to be uncovered in public.

;D It is true though to a a greater extent. This should be the quote of the day. br. cool ...its funny how they question Muslims following the Sharia..whereas the Nuns and the jewish women and even the mormons follow the same dress code of covering themselves up.
they are good people..only muslims are bad.:mmokay:
Subhanallah. they have nothing to say. all they bring up is falsehood trying to attack Islam. It is true that most of the non-Muslims here are not here to learn Islam but to mock this beautiful religion.
May Allah guide those people

[renak]

Correction - The Qur'an was not written. It was revealed.
This is not christianity. We don't change rules of God according to our needs. You have let your ignorance and frustration let loose finally.

Is all change good? I have to question that. I can say that people who dont follow the rules of God are becoming uncivilized and losing their sense of morality. Which is infact true. Your sense of progress is different than ours. Only the darkness of your grave can satisfy your ignorance. I mean all this time you were having a civil conversation. What happened suddenly? Felt like hurting somebodies feelings? I can quote the bible and talk about the filthiest stuff taken out of context. But anyway, its ok, i understand where you are coming from and I also inderstand that you are not hear to learn about Islam.

Feelings of human beings do not change over time. Is this so hard to understand? did people have different feelings and emtions 1400 years ago?
and this misconception of yours that somehow you are enlightened with humanistic and social intellect should be removed from your head. because you are not. you are following your desires. that is who your lord is. and you will be accountable for it on the day of reckoning. and i still think it is barbaric and uncivilized for women to be uncovered in public.

The quran may have been revealed; however, at some point it clearly was written. Hence, published books of the quran.

Brother, I do not feel that I've insulted you or Islam. Instead of addressing my question, you have chosen to personally attack me. That is fine. I can take your attack, without harboring hatred. I do agree that the bible is full of atrocities. I've never denied this fact.

So anyone want to answer me about Islam no longer allowing slavery or sex with children, but still endorsing the covering of women? Before anyone feels the need to enlighten me that slavery and sex with children occurred in the bible, I want to state that I already know.

[Nicola]

I don't think that women always dress seductively for a mans approval. When women feel beautiful, they act beautiful, the day is much nicer. The desired woman also tends to be held in higher regard by men, and women. Of course I'm speaking for the society in the USA.

I believe they dress seductively though low self esteem also. They seek attention, I'm speaking from English culture here. I wouldn't say a woman dressed seductively is held in higher regard at all here...They may be the first men head for in a clud etc..but that is only because they look easy and thats about all, then it's good bye the next morning. This causes the woman to have even less self-esteem.

I'm curious as to why you feel Satan controls the media? Do you really feel that people who admire beauty are being brainwashed and lead away from God? This seems rather radical.

Satan is a world ruler and rules all who are not of God..he is causing as much unrest and unhappiness has he possibly can. Satan is also sly and cunning and can appear as an angel of light..he will play on any weakness we have..using this to his advantage to lead us away from Gods true path..this is his whole purpose...Now we are living in the end times...Satan know his time is short here..and will use every trick he can. Why shouldn't he use the media for his advantage...look at the trouble it's caused between Muslims and the west..this is what he wants.
Also back to dress codes...God hates nothing more than pride..

God hates pride because He loves people -- and pride prevents people from receiving help from God.

PROVERBS 8:13 NKJ
13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; pride and arrogance and the evil way and the perverse mouth I hate.

AMOS 6:8 NKJ
8 The Lord God has sworn by Himself, the Lord God of hosts says: "I abhor the pride of Jacob, and hate his palaces; therefore I will deliver up the city and all that is in it."

Pride Is The Root Of All Sin
Pride is the most serious, and the most subtle, sin. It often is not even recognized as existing.

Pride is the root of all sin.

It causes us to turn away from God instead of turning to Him. All disobedience has pride as its root. All rebellion has pride behind it. All mistreatment of other people is caused by pride: someone putting their self and their feelings above the other person and their feelings.


Pride Is Evil
MARK 7:20-23 NKJ
20 And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.
21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
23 "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

1 JOHN 2:16 NKJ
16 For all that is in the world -- the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life -- is not of the Father but is of the world.

The world system promotes people who are proud, and often gives them great riches. God says pride is evil and defiles a man.


Pride Prevents People Receiving
PSALM 10:4 NKJ
4 The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts.

Pride causes people to go their own way instead of God's way. Pride makes you think you do not need God's advice or help.

JAMES 4:6 NKJ
6 . . ."God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble."

Only by faith in God can we receive God's blessings. Pride is faith in yourself. Faith in God is not faith in yourself.


Pride Causes People Trouble
PROVERBS 11:2 NKJ
2 When pride comes, then comes shame; but with the humble is wisdom.

PROVERBS 16:18-19 NKJ
18 Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.
19 Better to be of a humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.

PROVERBS 29:23 NKJ
23 A man's pride will bring him low, but the humble in spirit will retain honor.


Manifestations Of Pride
* Neglecting The Bible & Prayer

You may think you do not read the Bible more because you are so busy. The root problem is pride: you think you can make it without God's Word. Those who neglect prayer have the same root problem -- they think they can make it without God.

Pride and prayer are inverse. A proud person does not pray much, and a praying person is not bothered much with pride.

* Inability To Admit You Are Wrong

A proud person blames someone else -- the fault is never theirs! And, they refuse to admit anything they are doing could be a failure.

* Not Submitting To Authority

1 PETER 5:5 NKJ
5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble."

A proud person thinks they should do things their way, instead of going by what anyone else has to say.

* Know-it-all Attitude

1 CORINTHIANS 8:2 NKJ
2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.

* Not Acting On God's Word

If we do not act on God's Word we are acting on the word of someone else, thereby placing ourselves above God.

An example of this is people who do not worship God with their tithe, and who neglect giving. While they may think they cannot afford it, their root problem is pride: thinking they can make it on their own.

* Criticizing Others

Anyone who criticizes another person considers they are superior to that person. They also think they are qualified to judge another human being (which they are not).

* Thinking You Are Better Than Others

You are not better than anyone -- just different in some ways. True, you may be superior to some people in some ways, but every one of them is superior to you in at least one way. Every one of them knows something you do not. And, there are many people superior to you in many ways.

1 CORINTHIANS 4:7 NKJ
7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you glory as if you had not received it?

* Being Overly Busy

Being overly busy can be a manifestation of being proud. Some people think they have to do everything themselves because no one else could do it as well -- that is pride -- and can certainly keep someone very busy. Continual busyness -- even in the ministry -- is usually a sign of pride.


Dictionary Definition Of Pride
Webster's Eighth New Collegiate Dictionary gives these meanings:

* arrogant: exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance in an overbearing manner

* arrogance: a feeling of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumptuous claims

* pride: inordinate self-esteem; conceit

(Note on proud) Synonyms: arrogant, haughty, overbearing, disdainful. . . . showing or feeling superiority toward others.


What Causes Pride?
These things invite, bring, or produce pride. But we do not have to receive it!

* Knowledge.

1 CORINTHIANS 8:1 NKJ
1 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.

* Natural attributes: beauty, intelligence, talent.

EZEKIEL 28:17 NKJ
17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you.

* Prosperity or successful accomplishment.

1 TIMOTHY 6:17 NKJ
17 Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy.

* Spiritual power: supernatural miracles.

When God's power flows through you ministering to others, or God gives mighty answers to your prayers -- remember God is the Great One -- not you.

* Inexperience.

1 TIMOTHY 3:6 NKJ
6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.

Pride is associated with being a novice. This implies that with experience people should be less susceptible to pride. It further implies people will fail a lot -- what else but failure could cure us of pride?


Difference Between Pride And Faith
Interestingly, faith is mistaken for pride or arrogance by some people. Both can cause a person to be bold and confident. How can you tell the difference?

* The focus of the person's speech and how they treat other people.

If their speech focuses on themselves, or another human, it is pride. If it is on God, it is faith. The other outward actions may be similar, but the speech will be different.

The person in faith will have spent much time in the Word of God and prayer.

A proud person treats other people with indifference -- only using them.

The person of faith will walk in love -- because faith works by love. The person of faith will honor and prefer the other person above their own self.

Is it possible to have a mixture? Certainly! As Christians we are being perfected and changed into the image of Jesus Christ -- but none of us have arrived yet!

So, yes, some people who are walking in faith may manifest some measure of pride in some areas, and vice-versa.


Sodom's Sin
EZEKIEL 16:49-50 NKJ
49 "Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50 "And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.

God did not destroy the city of Sodom just because of its sexual perversion -- Ezekiel lists pride first among the reasons.


A Proud King
DANIEL 5:18-23 NKJ
18 "O king, the Most High God gave Nebuchadnezzar your father a kingdom and majesty, glory and honor.
19 "And because of the majesty that He gave him, all peoples, nations, and languages trembled and feared before him. Whomever he wished, he executed; whomever he wished, he kept alive; whomever he wished, he set up; and whomever he wished, he put down.
20 "But when his heart was lifted up, and his spirit was hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him.
21 "Then he was driven from the sons of men, his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild donkeys. They fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till he knew that the Most High God rules in the kingdom of men, and appoints over it whomever He chooses.
22 "But you his son, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, although you knew all this.
23 "And you have lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven. They have brought the vessels of His house before you, and you and your lords, your wives and your concubines, have drunk wine from them. And you have praised the gods of silver and gold, bronze and iron, wood and stone, which do not see or hear or know; and the God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified.

Anyone being tempted with pride should read the account of Nebuchadnezzar -- ruler of the known world. After God taught him a lesson, he made the following statement.

DANIEL 4:37 NKJ
37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth, and His ways justice. And those who walk in pride He is able to abase.


Do Not Pick Proud Leaders
1 TIMOTHY 3:2,3,6 NKJ
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.

Why would a novice be more apt to fall with pride? Surely, lack of failure can be the only answer. Experience shows us that we can be wrong. This should cause us to always look to God for His help and direction.


Never Permanent
Pride is an error that shows a lack of understanding of the true facts. Pride shows ignorance. But, pride is never permanent!

http://www.believers.org/believe/bel147.htm

[renak]

I believe they dress seductively though low self esteem also. They seek attention, I'm speaking from English culture here. I wouldn't say a woman dressed seductively is held in higher regard at all here...They may be the first men head for in a clud etc..but that is only because they look easy and thats about all, then it's good bye the next morning. This causes the woman to have even less self-esteem.

I think this may be the case for a few women, the ignorant ones. If a woman would allow herself to be treated in this manner, she would have low self-esteem. However, she would have low self-esteem regardless of her attire.

[Nicola]

I think this may be the case for a few women, the ignorant ones. If a woman would allow herself to be treated in this manner, she would have low self-esteem. However, she would have low self-esteem regardless of her attire.

I agree, these women have serious issues...

but how about the women who don't have low self-esteem...who are proud..
do you agree that dressing like this falls into being proud?

and that God hates pride. This was Satan downfall..

The same can be applied to any dress code, including the Islamic dress code for women....God knows whats in your heart and why your wearing the clothes you do...if it's pride, because you want to be different, stand out in the crowd..proud that your husband wishes you to be dressed this way.....it isn't for God your doing it....but for yourself alone.

[renak]

;D It is true though to a a greater extent. This should be the quote of the day. br. cool ...its funny how they question Muslims following the Sharia..whereas the Nuns and the jewish women and even the mormons follow the same dress code of covering themselves up.
they are good people..only muslims are bad.:mmokay:
Subhanallah. they have nothing to say. all they bring up is falsehood trying to attack Islam. It is true that most of the non-Muslims here are not here to learn Islam but to mock this beautiful religion.
May Allah guide those people

How is anyone attacking Islam on this thread? Does Islam believe that one should not ask questions?

Christians and jews do have some followers that follow modest dress. That's great. Everyone should dress according to his/her conscience. For example, Nicola has responded to this thread. She seems to be a Christian who adheres to a modest dress code, yet has contributed to this discussion in an intelligent, and respectful manner.

I don't think that anyone on this thread wishes to mock islam. I apologize if my questions and debate have offended you. However, I will continue to ask until I am no longer ignored.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Renak=I'm merely asking why men should not control their lust, and deal with their own weakness. Men are supposed to be stronger than women. This is should not be a hard request.

Then why say:

I don't believe that humans can control their sexuality.

Contradiction. Then why expect men to control their lust if you show them what they naturally lust after? It's like putting a plate of food infront of a hungry person and not expecting them to want to eat it. Would you say it's their fault they can't control their hunger if they see something that can satisfy it. Doesn't make sense.

May I ask why you think it isn't the mans responsibility to deal with his lust, opposed to making the woman deal with it for him?

In Islam it goes for both. Men have to lower their gazes and women cover up. The resposibility lies with both. Naturally the female form is attractive to men. The pious men will lower their gazes in front of covered or non-covered women. But the immorals ones will sexually harrass non-covered women not the covered ones. If you cross a busy motorway and get hit by a car, who's fault it is? Your's for exposing yourself to that danger. So women exposing themselves infront of men and not expecting to be viewed as sexual objects are out of touch with reality. Like you said, "
I don't believe that humans can control their sexuality." So why expect men to control their urges if you're giving them an eyeful of what is naturally attractive to them.

Nor do I feel that I am viewed less favorably by men and/or God. I am somewhat of a slave to fashion, and love the positive response I receive from men when I am looking my best. Perhaps men are viewing me in a sexual manner. I believe that it is their weakness which allows themselves to succumb to sexual immorality.

You call men finding you attractive a postive response? How is that? They are not looking at you and seeing the nice person you are inside, or how intelligent or great you are. They are looking at you as an object of desire. They probably dont even want to know ur name but have sex with you anyway. A potential means of satisfying their own desires. Then they see the next woman and think the same about her and the next and God knows how many others in a day. So you are not unique like the woman in hijaab.
To them you're just another sexual thing as same as the next one.
Is that really how you want to be viewed? In the same catagory as those seen as nothing but sexual objects?

Peace

[renak]

I agree, this women have serious issues...

but how about the women who don't have low self-esteem...who are proud..
do you agree that dressing like this falls into being proud?

and that God hates pride. This was Satan downfall..

I don't know if it means they are proud in the sense that God finds sinful. I mean everyone exhibits pride in some manner. We may be proud of our children, family, country, religion, etc...

I'm thinking that pride becomes a sin when it controls our life.

[renak]

Quote:
Originally posted by Renak=I'm merely asking why men should not control their lust, and deal with their own weakness. Men are supposed to be stronger than women. This is should not be a hard request.

Then why say:


Quote:
I don't believe that humans can control their sexuality.


Contradiction. Then why expect men to control their lust if you show them what they naturally lust after? It's like putting a plate of food infront of a hungry person and not expecting them to want to eat it. Would you say it's their fault they can't control their hunger if they see something that can satisfy it. Doesn't make sense.

I don't think people can control their sexual desires. I do believe people can, and have the responsibility to control how they choose to act upon these desires.

[Nicola]

;D It is true though to a a greater extent. This should be the quote of the day. br. cool ...its funny how they question Muslims following the Sharia..whereas the Nuns and the jewish women and even the mormons follow the same dress code of covering themselves up.
they are good people..only muslims are bad.:mmokay:
Subhanallah. they have nothing to say. all they bring up is falsehood trying to attack Islam. It is true that most of the non-Muslims here are not here to learn Islam but to mock this beautiful religion.
May Allah guide those people

Actually we did not bring up the subject of dress...we where asked a question..and no one has mocked Islam here.

[renak]

Quote:
May I ask why you think it isn't the mans responsibility to deal with his lust, opposed to making the woman deal with it for him?


In Islam it goes for both. Men have to lower their gazes and women cover up. The resposibility lies with both. Naturally the female form is attractive to men. The pious men will lower their gazes in front of covered or non-covered women. But the immorals ones will sexually harrass non-covered women not the covered ones. If you cross a busy motorway and get hit by a car, who's fault it is? Your's for exposing yourself to that danger. So women exposing themselves infront of men and not expecting to be viewed as sexual objects are out of touch with reality. Like you said, "
I don't believe that humans can control their sexuality." So why expect men to control their urges if you're giving them an eyeful of what is naturally attractive to them.

I've yet to meet a muslim man (or any man) who lowed his gaze at any woman. Perhaps this is because I live in the USA. It may be true that the immoral muslim men may sexually harass the non-covered woman. If this is the case, I say bring it on big boy. You're in my country and you'll play by my rules. ;D

By choosing not to cover myself I am not inviting danger. A man who is unable to control his primal urges is the danger. We are not animals, we are human beings with the capicity to reason and act accordingly.

I may be giving them an eyeful of what is naturally attractive to them. However, they are giving me an eyeful as well. They may be dressed casual, or in a suit...it doesn't really matter. If they are handsome and/or conduct themselves in a charming and confident manner, I will be attracted to them. Also, if they drive a luxury vehicle, which many muslims do in my area (lol), that may even attract me more. They know this.

[renak]

You call men finding you attractive a postive response? How is that? They are not looking at you and seeing the nice person you are inside, or how intelligent or great you are.

Yes. An attractive person (male or female) will generally have greater chance of succeeding in the workforce, in an organization, and in life in general. I want a person to view me and look at the nice person I am inside, my intelligence, and my beauty. However, this is usually only necessary on the personal level. Also, there may be a few exceptions, but people, and men specifically, value the physical aspect of people. Men are more visual creatures than women. Read over the threads relating to "would you marry a handicapped person", etc..., most responses show the true nature of the men and women on this forum.

They are looking at you as an object of desire. They probably dont even want to know ur name but have sex with you anyway. A potential means of satisfying their own desires. Then they see the next woman and think the same about her and the next and God knows how many others in a day. So you are not unique like the woman in hijaab.
To them you're just another sexual thing as same as the next one.
Is that really how you want to be viewed? In the same catagory as those seen as nothing but sexual objects?

Well, you seem a bit insulting, but that's okay. I don't care if a man wants to view me as a sexual object. If they are ignorant enough to think that I will allow them to treat me like a -----, well, they are mistaken. I must admit that it is fun to toy with these disrespectful idiots (christian and muslim). I like to reject them and make them feel like the pond scum.

I also want to point out that I've been single the majority of my adult life. I can honestly say that whether I come in contact with a man online, in a work setting, at a church function, via relative/friends, or anywhere in public, the most sexually aggressive and disrespectful men are those who are active in their church/mosque. They complain that their wife is too conservative, doesn't take pride in her appearance, etc... This of course is insulting to their wife, and me of course. I of course do not date these men, but they are out there in great abundance. Unfortunately, I don't feel that the MAJORITY of men respect the pious woman, or any woman for that matter (when it comes to obtaining sex).

[irsha]

I feel so sorry for you guys, I went to a public Christmas carols on the beach just before Christmas. There were a few hundred people there. Everyone was smiling and happy. Kids were playing and lighting candles, we were all playin volley ball together, most of us still had our swimmers on, abd there was a lot of happiness and smiling. No-one felt intimidated, noone was "gawking" noone got attacked or raped. Everyone was just natural and having fun. You guys will never experience that- you are so shackled by your jealous rules. I just cannot immagine a God preferring to see people all serious and full of hatred, compared to this happy scene. I believe God made us to have fun, he made the smile an inegral part of our way of expressing our mood, and its so unnatural to hide it all away. I really do feel sorry for you, you miss out on so much in life, and its silly, because its so unlikely that God would have wanted it that way.

[Ghazi]

I feel so sorry for you guys, I went to a public Christmas carols on the beach just before Christmas. There were a few hundred people there. Everyone was smiling and happy. Kids were playing and lighting candles, we were all playin volley ball together, most of us still had our swimmers on, abd there was a lot of happiness and smiling. No-one felt intimidated, noone was "gawking" noone got attacked or raped. Everyone was just natural and having fun. You guys will never experience that- you are so shackled by your jealous rules. I just cannot immagine a God preferring to see people all serious and full of hatred, compared to this happy scene. I believe God made us to have fun, he made the smile an inegral part of our way of expressing our mood, and its so unnatural to hide it all away. I really do feel sorry for you, you miss out on so much in life, and its silly, because its so unlikely that God would have wanted it that way.

Salaam

Don't worry about us muslim we'll get what we deserve and so will you.

[irsha]

Thats the irony, I believe that I will get what I deserve and so will you as well. Only, I believe God intended us to have fun while we are in this life as well, I think he does have a sense of humour, why else would he make us have the instinct to laugh and have fun. Now, that is not consistent with a God who wants to ban everything that is fun.

[Ghazi]

Thats the irony, I believe that I will get what I deserve and so will you as well. Only, I believe God intended us to have fun while we are in this life as well, I think he does have a sense of humour, why else would he make us have the instinct to laugh and have fun. Now, that is not consistent with a God who wants to ban everything that is fun.

Salaam

Ban everything thats fun huh? how about dangerous

[irsha]

Yeah, you can ban that too, not a bad idea.
But seriously- how is it dangerous to smile? to listen to music, to dance, to laugh, How was it dangerous what we did on the christmas carols on the beach?

[Ghazi]

Yeah, you can ban that too, not a bad idea.
But seriously- how is it dangerous to smile? to listen to music, to dance, to laugh, How was it dangerous what we did on the christmas carols on the beach?

Salaam

Disobeying allahs command's.

[aamirsaab]

Yeah, you can ban that too, not a bad idea.
But seriously- how is it dangerous to smile?

It isnt. nor is it haram.

to listen to music,

Not dangerous as such, just not recommended (from what i've been told)

to dance

See above answer

to laugh,

Noone ever said that. Excessive laughter may be frowned upon - like hysterically.

How was it dangerous what we did on the christmas carols on the beach?

I don't believe it was...

In anycase, this is getting off topic. If you would like to discuss these issues i'd suggest creating a new topic - i'd be more than happy to attempt answers to them.

[irsha]

Well, we have to agree to disagree on that, I don't think Allah does or would command all the rules Islam says he does. But, you go ahead, its your life. But I do feel sorry for you.

[sheerheart1]

well a muslim woman does have to cover her body so its not reaveling but the messanger pointed at two things which maybe left uncovered the face and the hands a man may not force his wife to wear it and also its not just in western countries that women are uncovering either but in the east also alot of western reverts cover fully i know i am one of those women but it seems the norm now for many sisters not even to wear hijaab :( even and man like a woman should keep his eyes down :rant: but some don't??

[sheerheart1]

Well, we have to agree to disagree on that, I don't think Allah does or would command all the rules Islam says he does. But, you go ahead, its your life. But I do feel sorry for you.

is it not in the bible that women should be covered also ??????????:?

[sheerheart1]

a muslims life is moderation not harsh not so easy

[sheerheart1]

In Todays Society Where Rape Is On The Increase Whats Best To Cover Or Not To Cover ???????????????????/

[Umu 'Isa]

I feel so sorry for you guys, I went to a public Christmas carols on the beach just before Christmas. There were a few hundred people there. Everyone was smiling and happy. Kids were playing and lighting candles, we were all playin volley ball together, most of us still had our swimmers on, abd there was a lot of happiness and smiling. No-one felt intimidated, noone was "gawking" noone got attacked or raped. Everyone was just natural and having fun. You guys will never experience that- you are so shackled by your jealous rules. I just cannot immagine a God preferring to see people all serious and full of hatred, compared to this happy scene. I believe God made us to have fun, he made the smile an inegral part of our way of expressing our mood, and its so unnatural to hide it all away. I really do feel sorry for you, you miss out on so much in life, and its silly, because its so unlikely that God would have wanted it that way.

If you feel so sorry for us, why do you continue on refuting and disagreeing on everything we say. After all this is an ISLAMIC forum. Non-believers will never understand unless Allah puts guidance into thier hearts. These are our beliefs, like it or not. We are not about to change them just because you and some other people do not agree. Telling us you feel sorry for us is your opinion. But just remember this is an islamic forum and the majority of us feel sorry for you.

[irsha]

I dont believe its relevant, its best to be careful and never find yourself in a lonely dark alley or with the wrong relative on your own. Rapists go for opportunity, not how much skin is showing

[sheerheart1]

now ur talking off the topic but i will answer u up untill the turn of the centuary christians themselves were marrying chikdren at 10 also in the jewish religion a child could be married at 3 years old and even today in some countrys in africa are gettng married at 10 years old also so with alot of western people going to tailand for sex with chikdren and u go back and talk about a beloved prophet .and his wife and no one knows the ages of alot of the other prophets wives

[sheerheart1]

quote! Women must cover their heads:

(Corinthians 11:5)
"But any woman who prays and prophecies with her head unveiled dishonors her head - it is the same as if her head were shaven, for if a woman will not veil herself then she should cut off her hair. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil."


Women are never allowed to teach men:

(Timothy 2:12)
"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."



Women are second class humans compared to men:

(Corinthians 11:3)
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."


(Corinthians 11:7)
"For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man, for man was not made for woman, but woman from man, neither was man created for woman, but woman for man."



Women can't pray at Church:

(Corinthians 14:34)
The woman should keep silence in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is any thing they desire to know let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
quote from the bible or is it not the book of GOD with his orders inside it

[sheerheart1]

. My point is, if that custom and rule can change, why not oher rules like dress etc?

we try to our ability follow the laws which Allah (god has sent down for u) and if u love God so much would u not try to follow those rukes and laws or r they to be broken??????:rollseyes

[Umu 'Isa]

is it up to the creation to chose what to obey and what not to? when the rules are clearly stated from the creator? (in your case...)
hmmmm.. so basically you make your own rules?

[sheerheart1]

why should we follow the laws of man my friend and not those of God its like saying Gods orders are obsolete...........i know all about christianity i am an ex christian so i have experianced bothside of the coin so they call it

[Al-Mu'min]

I dont believe its relevant, its best to be careful and never find yourself in a lonely dark alley or with the wrong relative on your own. Rapists go for opportunity, not how much skin is showing

So according to you, if all women live nude, go out nude, work nude. And continue to do so, as long as they avoid a lonely dark alley or be with the wrong relative on their own, then the rape rate will go down?

[sheerheart1]

well alot of them are nude on the beaches and half dressed going out would jesus be proud of the laws of god being flaunted [MOUSE][/MOUSE]

[sheerheart1]

but like all christians mostly they have thier heads in the sand

[Kittygyal]

sis i understand and all i can say is just ''fear your lord'' and also like sis sheerheart1 said is so true

take care

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
A number of posts (~70) were removed from this thread. I would remind members to read the FORUM RULES before posting.

A forum does not operate like a chatroom. Each post must pertain to the original topic as opposed to personal comments. In addition, some topics have already been discussed - the marriage of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh to Aisha was already discussed in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...phet-pbuh.html

I would urge members to abstain from personal attacks/comments/jokes and stay ON-TOPIC.

Thread re-opened.

:w:

[j4763]

I am happy to walk down the street with my girlfriend and know man are looking at her, perhaps thinking she’s beautiful, it makes me proud that she is with me. She also finds it flattering when she walks past a building site an men wolf whistle. I too find it flattering if a girl whistles at me.

I feel sorry for the ones who are walking behind her and get no attention, I would feel ugly if I was walking behind her and got no flattering remarks.

I imaging this is the main reason way westerns don’t cover themselves up, because when they look in the mirror they want to see an attractive person in there reflection. Not only to look attractive to the opposite sex but for them.

When you look in the mirror what would you prefer to see beauty or sheets of cloth with eye’s poking through?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I am happy to walk down the street with my girlfriend and know man are looking at her, perhaps thinking she’s beautiful, it makes me proud that she is with me.

Why is it that the woman must be admired solely for her physical appearance, and the man is admired for who he is and his position in society?

[j4763]

I don't understand how having fun necessitates the removal of one's clothes. Are you saying it isn't possible to have fun while properly dressed?

Bit hard to have fun at the seaside when fully clothed :)

[j4763]

Why is it that the woman must be admired solely for her physical appearance, and the man is admired for who he is and his position in society?

As far as i know women dont just go for the powerful rich men (well some shallow ones do) women i would guess also want an attractive partner?

[Nawal89]

^ j4763 no not necessarily that you cant have fun. I wear full jilbab and i go to the beach almost every weekend. It's just how you think.

[j4763]

^no not necessarily. I wear full jilbab and i go to the beach almost every weekend. It's just how you think.

And you go swimming/playing in the water in it too???

[Nawal89]

And you go swimming/playing in the water in it too???

of course. I can swim dude.

[j4763]

of course. I can swim dude.

you swim covered up?

[Malsidabym]

I'll take a step to bring this thread back on topic.

You guys will never experience that - you are so shackled by your desires.

Peace.

Come now Ansar, you should know better than to generalize like this. Who are "you guys"? If "you guys" are all westerners, then you have a pretty distorted view of what "all" westerners are like. Yes some are shackled by desires, just as some muslims also are. The scene you described of people having good clean fun happens for all groups of people.

[Nawal89]

yesss i do. is that so hard to believe?;D

[libyanhero]

I respect the woman who covers herself, and applaud her for trying to increase her respectability as a woman, and increase favor in the eyes of God. However, do not feel that I could be one of these women. Nor do I feel that I am viewed less favorably by men and/or God. I am somewhat of a slave to fashion, and love the positive response I receive from men when I am looking my best. Perhaps men are viewing me in a sexual manner. I believe that it is their weakness which allows themselves to succumb to sexual immorality. If they cannot view me as a woman who is not only comfortable with her sexuality, but also comfortable with her beliefs, then I really have no place for them in my life. It's called taking responsibility for ones actions.

In regards to me being programmed by the media, perhaps I am to an extent. However, I love looking great, and being attractive.

no offense but your a slave to men who are you looking good to when you flash your un neccesaries, you dont have to show skin to look good or is that part of feeling flattery and being seductive it all comes down to your devious desires, I am not saying having desires is devious but when its given out to the whole population and publicly interiors its subjecting to oblivious behaviour

[j4763]

yesss i do. is that so hard to believe?;D

Can just imaging it now, I my mind it does look rather funny :giggling:

It must be a bit of a burdon?

[Kittygyal]

no offense but your a slave to men who are you looking good to when you flash your un neccesaries, you dont have to show skin to look good or is that part of feeling flattery and being seductive it all comes down to your devious desires, I am not saying having desires is devious but when its given out to the whole population and publicly interiors its subjecting to oblivious behaviour

:thumbs_up true say bro

take care

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Come now Ansar, you should know better than to generalize like this. Who are "you guys"? If "you guys" are all westerners, then you have a pretty distorted view of what "all" westerners are like. Yes some are shackled by desires, just as some muslims also are. The scene you described of people having good clean fun happens for all groups of people.

I agree completely. It is totally wrong to generalize. But maybe you didn't read irsha's paragraph which I was copying.

[Abu Zakariya]

j4763

Here in Sweden, we Muslims usually rent the swimming hall so that women can swim by themselves without men present and vice versa, so one can swim without having to cover other than the private parts.

[HeiGou]

no offense but your a slave to men who are you looking good to when you flash your un neccesaries, you dont have to show skin to look good or is that part of feeling flattery and being seductive it all comes down to your devious desires, I am not saying having desires is devious but when its given out to the whole population and publicly interiors its subjecting to oblivious behaviour

If she covered up because men like you told her to, wouldn't she be even more of a slave to men? If she covered up because men, bad men of course, hooted at her, whistled at her, touched her up in the street, until she covered up, wouldn't she still be a slave to men? Perhaps, and maybe you do not agree with me, she will only stop being a slave to men when she wears whatever she likes regardless of what any men think? - and if that is the jilbab so be it, but if it is not, then it is not.

[j4763]

j4763

Here in Sweden, we Muslims usually rent the swimming hall so that women can swim by themselves without men present and vice versa, so one can swim without having to cover other than the private parts.

Thats fine in a swimming pool, but not possible at the beach. So one would have to go with out the fun of swimming (if you find swimming fun).

Do the women not get a tiny bit jealous of other girl’s body’s, say ones pretty fat and the others pretty toned.

[Malsidabym]

I agree completely. It is totally wrong to generalize. But maybe you didn't read irsha's paragraph which I was copying.

Ah yes, I did not read closely enough. I see now why the response. It was a generalization in response to a generalization.
So in the spirit of not generalizing, I don't think that all christian women view muslim women the same. Some see muslim women as oppressed by men and religion, but there are also many that respect muslim women for their commitment to family and God.

[Abu Zakariya]

Thats fine in a swimming pool, but not possible at the beach. So one would have to go with out the fun of swimming (if you find swimming fun).

So swimming in a pool doesn't really count? It's something other than swimming?

I think that you meant that one would have to go without the fun of being at the beach. However, here in Sweden, most people have to go without that. We don't have that many beaches.

Do the women not get a tiny bit jealous of other girl’s body’s, say ones pretty fat and the others pretty toned.

That may happen. How has that got anything to do with the topic?

[j4763]

So swimming in a pool doesn't really count? It's something other than swimming?

I think that you meant that one would have to go without the fun of being at the beach. However, here in Sweden, most people have to go without that. We don't have that many beaches.

guess so.

That may happen. How has that got anything to do with the topic?

Yeah, it is sorry.

[Skillganon]

Thats fine in a swimming pool, but not possible at the beach. So one would have to go with out the fun of swimming (if you find swimming fun).

Do the women not get a tiny bit jealous of other girl’s body’s, say ones pretty fat and the others pretty toned.

Don't know, gotta ask a girl!

[libyanhero]

If she covered up because men like you told her to, wouldn't she be even more of a slave to men?

I do not tell anyone to do anything, I am just repeating the message of Allah and his prophet muhammad(saws)

If she covered up because men, bad men of course, hooted at her, whistled at her, touched her up in the street, until she covered up, wouldn't she still be a slave to men?

brother the bad men hooting at her are following thier desires and do not fear Allah, if everyone feared Allah she wouldnt be hooted at even the hijabi is hooted at by bad men and thats because they know the beautiful women is the muslim women under the cover but I would like to see how shocked the men will be when they start hooting at the hijabi and under that niqab they find an unattractive women one that they did not expect

Perhaps, and maybe you do not agree with me, she will only stop being a slave to men when she wears whatever she likes regardless of what any men think? - and if that is the jilbab so be it, but if it is not, then it is not.

yah i do not agree with you, Allah requires both men and women to abide to thy commandment, both have desires and the women who is not covered and enjoys the attention of men would possibly flirt with the man who doesnt cover either cover here is different from the cover of the women and that is the shyness from the women and he flirts openly and as the conversation moves thats how it goes they both submitted to their desires instead of Allah

[HeiGou]

I do not tell anyone to do anything, I am just repeating the message of Allah and his prophet muhammad(saws)

Well then you are telling her to observe God's law.

brother the bad men hooting at her are following thier desires and do not fear Allah, if everyone feared Allah she wouldnt be hooted at even the hijabi is hooted at by bad men and thats because they know the beautiful women is the muslim women under the cover but I would like to see how shocked the men will be when they start hooting at the hijabi and under that niqab they find an unattractive women or a monster

It has always struck me as odd because the men who do this are so obviously not following God's desires and yet I have never seen the slightest effort to punish them. I would think it would deserve a whipping. Anyone got better information than me on what the men that do that deserve and how often it is inflicted?

Well they won't know will they? Nor, to be honest, do they care probably.

yah i do not agree with you, Allah requires both men and women to abide to thy commandment, both have desires and the women who is not covered and enjoys the attention of men would possibly flirt with the man who doesnt cover either cover here is different from the cover of the women and that is the shyness from the women and he flirts openly and as the conversation moves thats how it goes they both submitted to their desires instead of Allah

A woman may not cover and still not flirt. Doing what God wants is one thing, and something I have no problems with, but doing what men enforce by bad means is another.

[Umm Yoosuf]

1) The Western culture seems to be obsessed with a very narrow ideal of feminine beauty, and women are derogated if they do not match this ideal. Many women spend hours each day picking just the right outfit and styling their makeup and hair before they will even step out of the house. Any feminist will tell you this obsession with women's beauty and sexuality is bad for women and should be ended. Isn't modest dress a good way for a woman to get off this merry-go-round and to tell people that they will have to judge her by her intelligence, personality, and character, not her appearance?

2) When men dress to be respected, they wear a business suit that covers them to throat, wrist, and ankle, and they keep their hair simple and plain. When women dress to be respected, shouldn't they also cover to throat, wrist, and ankle, and make sure that their hair is not a decoration? Clearly, men are not expected to play the "beauty game". If women want equality with men, shouldn't they take the same attitude to dress that men do?

http://www.muhajabah.com/

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

If she covered up because men like you told her to, wouldn't she be even more of a slave to men?

No human being has the authority, it belongs only to God.

Ah yes, I did not read closely enough. I see now why the response. It was a generalization in response to a generalization.

Precisely.

So in the spirit of not generalizing, I don't think that all christian women view muslim women the same. Some see muslim women as oppressed by men and religion, but there are also many that respect muslim women for their commitment to family and God.

Agreed.

Regards

[renak]

is it not in the bible that women should be covered also ??????????:?

Yes, it is mentioned in the Old Testament. Many Christians feel that they are only instructed to follow the New Testament.

[renak]

In Todays Society Where Rape Is On The Increase Whats Best To Cover Or Not To Cover ???????????????????/

Rape is an act of violence, not sex.

[renak]

quote! Women must cover their heads:

(Corinthians 11:5)
"But any woman who prays and prophecies with her head unveiled dishonors her head - it is the same as if her head were shaven, for if a woman will not veil herself then she should cut off her hair. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil."


Women are never allowed to teach men:

(Timothy 2:12)
"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."

Women are second class humans compared to men:

(Corinthians 11:3)
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."


(Corinthians 11:7)
"For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man, for man was not made for woman, but woman from man, neither was man created for woman, but woman for man."



Women can't pray at Church:

(Corinthians 14:34)
The woman should keep silence in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is any thing they desire to know let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
quote from the bible or is it not the book of GOD with his orders inside it

Christians and Muslims are both guilty of "cherry picking", that is choosing what they want to enforce, and ignoring the rest. I'd love for you to read my prior posts on this thread and answer my questions.

[renak]

is it up to the creation to chose what to obey and what not to? when the rules are clearly stated from the creator? (in your case...)
hmmmm.. so basically you make your own rules?

Do you not make your own rules as well? Are Muslims exempt from choosing the rules they want to follow, and disregarding the rest?

Why is slavery no longer accepted in Islam?

[renak]

So according to you, if all women live nude, go out nude, work nude. And continue to do so, as long as they avoid a lonely dark alley or be with the wrong relative on their own, then the rape rate will go down?

Research rape. It is not an act of sex. Rape is an act of violence.

[renak]

Why is it that the woman must be admired solely for her physical appearance, and the man is admired for who he is and his position in society?

An attractive woman is not solely admired for her beauty, unless she has nothing else to offer.

[renak]

no offense but your a slave to men who are you looking good to when you flash your un neccesaries, you dont have to show skin to look good or is that part of feeling flattery and being seductive it all comes down to your devious desires, I am not saying having desires is devious but when its given out to the whole population and publicly interiors its subjecting to oblivious behaviour

Actually, I'm a slave to no one. If anything, the man may become a "slave" to me. I have the upper hand with a man who views me only as an object of desire. This type of man has an internal weakness that he chooses to avoid. I on the other hand, am aware of the powers of my female charms, and use them to my advantage.

A man who is capable of seeing beyond the pure physical, has no threat of becoming manipulated by an attractive woman. They are able to control their animalistic desires, and think on higher levels. This type of man takes responsibility for his own desires, and actions.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

On the subject of women covering themselves in Christianity, here is a picture of some Eastern Orthodox Christian Nuns:

Modest dress is something common to religious women. When someone sees a Nun dressed in this manner, what message does that send?


Hello renak,

Do you not make your own rules as well?

No human being can override the rules of God.

Why is slavery no longer accepted in Islam?

The Islamic ruling on slavery has not changed. But Islamic laws which restricted sources of slavery and encouraged the freeing of slaves brought about the gradual removal of slavery from the world. More info here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ave-girls.html

An attractive woman is not solely admired for her beauty, unless she has nothing else to offer.

I was responding to j4763's comment:

I am happy to walk down the street with my girlfriend and know man are looking at her, perhaps thinking she’s beautiful, it makes me proud that she is with me.

Obviously a woman should not be valued only for her outward appearance and for men to judge her by it is something that all women should detest because it reduces them to a material object of no value in and of itself. Material possesions are only useful when they benefit/pleasure others.

Actually, I'm a slave to noone. If anything, the man may become a "slave" to me. I have the upper hand with a man who views me only as an object of desire.

A prostitute is only viewed as an object of desire - do you think she has a position of authority and influence on those who use her? Does it make a woman proud to be considered a material possesion whose value is gauged only according to the pleasure she provides others?

Regards

[renak]

1) The Western culture seems to be obsessed with a very narrow ideal of feminine beauty, and women are derogated if they do not match this ideal. Many women spend hours each day picking just the right outfit and styling their makeup and hair before they will even step out of the house. Any feminist will tell you this obsession with women's beauty and sexuality is bad for women and should be ended. Isn't modest dress a good way for a woman to get off this merry-go-round and to tell people that they will have to judge her by her intelligence, personality, and character, not her appearance?

I don't think that modest dress would ensure respect for women. I see it more as a bandaid to the issue, a way to avoid the core problem. There are no doubt many pious men who respect their wives and would never derive pleasure from another woman. However, I tend to believe that most men continue to seek some sort of relationship with other women whether it be via an affair, another marriage, or pornography.

I've yet to meet a woman who spends hours getting dressed. This isn't reality.

Many of the feminist leaders are lesbians, and are unable or unwilling to take recognize their feminine characteristics. Instead, they often tend to focus on equality between men and women, without recognizing the obvious differences between the sexes. Feminist opinion is not held in high regard by most women I've known.
2) When men dress to be respected, they wear a business suit that covers them to throat, wrist, and ankle, and they keep their hair simple and plain. When women dress to be respected, shouldn't they also cover to throat, wrist, and ankle, and make sure that their hair is not a decoration? Clearly, men are not expected to play the "beauty game". If women want equality with men, shouldn't they take the same attitude to dress that men do?

Again, I think we need to recognize the differences between men and women. Men are more visual creatures. They like to see skin. Women, like to see skin on occasion; however, they tend to be more attracted to a mans strength, charisma, confidence, and power. A man completely covered in a suit can be just as erotic for a woman as a bikini clad 25 year old is for a man. For example, if I see a covered man in a suit and he is confident, and charming, I would be attracted to him. He is exuding his sexuality in this manner. He is saying to women, "I have a good job, I can provide well for you and your offspring".
http://www.muhajabah.com/

just my 2 cents....

[Knut Hamsun]

No human being has the authority, it belongs only to God

Actually, "god" requires "men" to speak/interpret for him in every religion. This is what you think you do, right? If "gods" message was clear enough it wouldn't need further explication. And I still have never seen a shred of evidence that "god" has spoken to anyone, besides!

[Knut Hamsun]

Obviously a woman should not be valued only for her outward appearance and for men to judge her by it is something that all women should detest because it reduces them to a material object of no value in and of itself.

Covering up a woman's beauty reduces them to a material object!!!

[renak]

On the subject of women covering themselves in Christianity, here is a picture of some Eastern Orthodox Christian Nuns:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...9d/Nuns001.jpg

Modest dress is something common to religious women. When someone sees a Nun dressed in this manner, what message does that send?


It sends the message that they don't want sex now, or anytime in their lifetime.

Hello renak,

No human being can override the rules of God.

However, we all do.
The Islamic ruling on slavery has not changed. But Islamic laws which restricted sources of slavery and encouraged the freeing of slaves brought about the gradual removal of slavery from the world. More info here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ave-girls.html

It appears that slavery is no longer accepted because of the society that we now live in. Couldn't this be a valid argument for women refusing to cover themselves?

I was responding to j4763's comment:

Obviously a woman should not be valued only for her outward appearance and for men to judge her by it is something that all women should detest because it reduces them to a material object of no value in and of itself. Material possesions are only useful when they benefit/pleasure others.


A prostitute is only viewed as an object of desire - do you think she has a position of authority and influence on those who use her? Does it make a woman proud to be considered a material possesion whose value is gauged only according to the pleasure she provides others?

A prostitute can be in a position of authority. They are providing a much desired service, and are able to gain financial reward for their services. A smart prostitute is able to recognize that sex is not love. By being able to separate sex from love, they are thinking like a man. Therefore, I wouldn't say that they are necessarily damaged by there occupation.

Regards

:):) :) :)

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello renak,

Feminist opinion is not held in high regard by most women I've known.

Well that's interesting.

Greetings Knut,

Actually, "god" requires "men" to speak/interpret for him in every religion. This is what you think you do, right?

Not at all. No one is allowed to explain Qur'anic verses according to their personal whims - it is done by examining other passages in the Qur'an and the implementation of the passages by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. I

And I still have never seen a shred of evidence that "god" has spoken to anyone, besides!

Well you're looking in the wrong thread. That discussion belongs here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-word-god.html

Covering up a woman's beauty reduces them to a material object!!!

How? What message do you get when you see a Nun like those in the image posted earlier?

Regards

[renak]

Hello renak,

Well that's interesting.

Why is this interesting?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

It send the message that they don't want sex now, or anytime in their lifetime.

And what else does that mean?

However, we all do

There is a difference between overriding and disobedience. The former is disbelief in God while the latter is simply sin.

It appears that slavery is no longer accepted because of the society that we now live in.

No, slavery would actually be impossible according to Islamic law in the society we now live in, because no free person can be enslaved outside of military conflict where there are war captives,

Couldn't this be a valid argument for women refusing to cover themselves?

No because God commands men and women to dress in the modest manner outlined in the Qur'an and the Sunnah whereas there is no command to take slaves.

A prostitute can be in a position of authority.

Really?! I think that is a very sad statement. The plight of women who are forced to sell their bodies to strangers in the street is worsened when it is not recognized by others. The poverty of these women allows others to take advantage of them and abuse them. Do you think these women have any influence on society when they cannot even influence who gets to use their body next? If you really thik that prostitution is a position of power and authority, then why do the vast majority of women find the idea of selling their body for money to be degrading and despicable?

Peace.

[renak]

And what else does that mean?
It means that she is a woman who has been instructed to cover her body. Of course this regulation was created by males.


There is a difference between overriding and disobedience. The former is disbelief in God while the latter is simply sin.
In all due respect, this sounds like a cop out to me.

No, slavery would actually be impossible according to Islamic law in the society we now live in, because no free person can be enslaved outside of military conflict where there are war captives,

Are you admitting that Islamic law has changed to appease other societies?

No because God commands men and women to dress in the modest manner outlined in the Qur'an and the Sunnah whereas there is no command to take slaves.

Is this not a matter of interpretation? There are many muslims who feel that God did not command men and women to dress in a modest manner. Many seem to be on this forum.


Really?! I think that is a very sad statement. The plight of women who are forced to sell their bodies to strangers in the street is worsened when it is not recognized by others. The poverty of these women allows others to take advantage of them and abuse them. Do you think these women have any influence on society when they cannot even influence who gets to use their body next? If you really thik that prostitution is a position of power and authority, then why do the vast majority of women find the idea of selling their body for money to be degrading and despicable?

If a woman is forced to sell her body she would not be in a position of power and authority. However, many prostitutes operate by choice.

Peace.

:) :)

[renak]

I just viewed the thread pertaining to "Would you marry a disabled person?" Only 33% said they would in fact marry a disabled person. I believe this emphasizes the importance that physical beauty plays when people select a marriage partner.

For those of you who implied on this thread that women should not be viewed as sexual objects, I wonder if you agree that a disability should not be a determining factor in the self-worth of a human? Perhaps those who have contributed to this thread did not vote on the poll related to a disabled person, or you in fact voted YES.

Nonetheless, I think it is naive to suggest that beauty is not appreciated in all societies.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

It means that she is a woman who has been instructed to cover her body. Of course this regulation was created by males.

Oh really? Any evidence to back up your claim or is this more personal conjecture? What do men get from women who cover themselves and abstain from sex?

In all due respect, this sounds like a cop out to me.

It's not a cop-out if I answered your objection. If you didn't understand the distinction I made then just say so and I will be more than happy to explain it to you. Creating rules to supersede or override God's rules is disbelief. Disobeying His rules and falling prey to temptation, is simply a sin. There is a difference between sin (Fisq) and disbelief (kufr).

Are you admitting that Islamic law has changed to appease other societies?

No, I just told you that Islamic law and the Islamic ruling on slaves has NOT changed.

Is this not a matter of interpretation?

It's a matter of ignorance, actually. All the Muslim scholars for over a millenia have agreed that based on the explicit commands in the Qur'an and the Sunnah, the dress code is mandatory.

If a woman is forced to sell her body she would not be in a position of power and authority. However, many prostitutes operate by choice.

Actually, according to Amnesty International, because coercion can sometimes be subtle and not manifest, it is actually something practical to determine. But at any rate, like I said, a prostitute has no influence on society when she cannot even influence who gets to use her body next.

Peace.

[Lush]

I'm uncovered. I'm happy. I just spent another wonderful afternoon in the gardens, sunbathing in my swimming costume. A number of Muslim women in abayas wandered by. They don't tell me how to dress, and I don't tell them how to dress. I don't assume what their lives are life, and they do likewise.

Don't patronise me. Don't tell me I'm a "slave" to anything. Don't tell me how I view myself and others.

This thread is yet another unfortunate example of rampant generalization.

[Lush]

If I really love my wife..which I will Inshallah(cos im not married yet)..i would'nt want a single strange man to even look at my wife's beautiful face(forget about anyone daring to look at her in a sexual way). that is very impolite and immoral according to our standards.
Her beauty is not on display for unknown men or strangers to be looking at.
this is called real love. and trust me women who know the beauty of Niqab....they love it. it is something full of wisdom. orders of sharia are so beautiful..really it touches our hearts..and Allah, Subhanahu wa' Ta'ala tells us in the Qur'an about the nature of human beings. the rules of sharia are completely compatible with the nature of humans. whoever denies this is simply denying the reality.

If you have such strict requirements for your futurew ife and her "beauty," how come you're not dressing in niqaab yourself? Or aren't you worried about other women checking you out? What a double standard.

[renak]

Oh really? Any evidence to back up your claim or is this more personal conjecture? What do men get from women who cover themselves and abstain from sex?

Being that the nuns habit is not bibically based, I would say that it is a very good assumption that it was man made.

Perhaps men created the nuns habit simply for distinction. Do an internet search and you will find many opinions, but no true answer.

It's not a cop-out if I answered your objection. If you didn't understand the distinction I made then just say so and I will be more than happy to explain it to you. Creating rules to supersede or override God's rules is disbelief. Disobeying His rules and falling prey to temptation, is simply a sin. There is a difference between sin (Fisq) and disbelief (kufr).
Sure. Explain in more detail please.

No, I just told you that Islamic law and the Islamic ruling on slaves has NOT changed.
Have you told me that they have not changed? The fact that slavery no longer exists, but would be acceptable in the eyes of God if it did exist, makes me think that any ancient religious practice is open to become extinct in todays society.You said:

"No, slavery would actually be impossible according to Islamic law in the society we now live in, because no free person can be enslaved outside of military conflict where there are war captives" This is a source of confusion for me. Are you saying that slavery does or does not exist in Islamic Law?



It's a matter of ignorance, actually. All the Muslim scholars for over a millenia have agreed that based on the explicit commands in the Qur'an and the Sunnah, the dress code is mandatory.

Not all muslims on this site practice modest dress. I've known very few muslims, out of very many, who practice modest dress. Are you saying that these individuals are wrong? If only those muslims who practice modest dress are true muslims, I would venture to say that this world has far fewer muslims than it likes others to believe. Are you sure that, "All the Muslim scholars for over a millenia have agreed that based on the explicit commands in the Qur'an and the Sunnah, the dress code is mandatory." It is my understanding that there is a lot of debate about this.

Actually, according to Amnesty International, because coercion can sometimes be subtle and not manifest, it is actually something practical to determine. But at any rate, like I said, a prostitute has no influence on society when she cannot even influence who gets to use her body next.

When a woman is forced into prostitution, it is no doubt horrific. However, you are neglecting to take into account the prostitutes who make the decision to enter into the profession, and control all aspects of their lives. In the USA they are quite numerous.
Peace.

:) :)

[vpb]

i guess one day they will put "prostitution" as a official occupation lol...
world is going crazy.

Peace

[renak]

i guess one day they will put "prostitution" as a official occupation lol...
world is going crazy.

Peace

Sure why not.:giggling: Look in phone books in the USA, and it is listed as Escort Services. It isn't all that uncommon for college girls to become escorts (prostitutes). :) There are also a lot of "truck stop" prostitutes. Research has shown that truck stop prostitutes find the greatest reward from their profession than all other types of prostitutes.

[moujahid]

Sure why not.:giggling: Look in phone books in the USA, and it is listed as Escort Services. It isn't all that uncommon for college girls to become escorts (prostitutes). :)

thats not funny at all. its a shame that its happening in many places around the world. this is really what is called women trafficing and using them as mere sex objects. is this what the western morality has come down to? uncivilized barbarians!

[Knut Hamsun]

thats not funny at all. its a shame that its happening in many places around the world. this is really what is called women trafficing and using them as mere sex objects. is this what the western morality has come down to? uncivilized barbarians!

No it is NOT women trafficking. These women renak refers to do it willingly, of their own volition, and are paid fairly. Women trafficking involves cross border smuggling of women who then are blackmailed, at best, by the leverage their smuggler has over them by holding their passport or money. Duh.

Are you offended that prostitution has a longer history than islam? Why, if you live in the west, would you want to be here? And by the way, many here call you a repressed *%^%^$^#$%. "Uncivilized"? The muslim world uses all of the west's technology, medicine, science. Get a general clue about we who you hate.

[renak]

thats not funny at all. its a shame that its happening in many places around the world. this is really what is called women trafficing and using them as mere sex objects. is this what the western morality has come down to? uncivilized barbarians!

No this is not human trafficking. This is normal, free thinking women who choose to enter into prostitution. If you want to start a thread on prostitution, go ahead. I think we're getting off topic.

[Abu Zakariya]

By the way, it is true that we use your technology.
The Christians in my home country used the same technology for ethnical cleansing when they threw us out of our homes for being Muslims.
I should be more grateful. The people in Chechnya to, where your technology is being used for experiments on the Chechen population.
All of the Muslims, in fact, should be more grateful. Why are there some that aren't? Beats me.

[Far7an]

:sl:

Keep it clean and respectful, please.

[Snowflake]

originally posted by Renak=I don't think people can control their sexual desires. I do believe people can, and have the responsibility to control how they choose to act upon these desires.

Agreed. But the fact is many women do dress to win appreciation of the opposite sex and therefore send off vibes that they have something to offer. Just as an open window is an invitation to burglars. Likewise when women expose their bodies, men will think they are easy bait. So if women don't want that kind of attention, they have to take some responsility i.e. cover up.

Well, you seem a bit insulting, but that's okay. I don't care if a man wants to view me as a sexual object. If they are ignorant enough to think that I will allow them to treat me like a -----, well, they are mistaken. I must admit that it is fun to toy with these disrespectful idiots (christian and muslim). I like to reject them and make them feel like the pond scum.

I'm really sorry. I did not intend to insult you but was merely saying that this is what happens. Men will think like that whether women like it or not. Just as drivers use the high-way code and the pedestrians the green-cross code, responsilibity should be two-sided. It isnt fair to think a person can do anything and not get a reaction from it.

the most sexually aggressive and disrespectful men are those who are active in their church/mosque. They complain that their wife is too conservative, doesn't take pride in her appearance, etc... This of course is insulting to their wife, and me of course. I of course do not date these men, but they are out there in great abundance.

Well they are wrong. But their complaining about conservative wives just shows that they will look and feel attracted to the more liberal minded women. That is why I'm saying women have to guard themselves if they don't like men behaving badly. But I don't think church/mosque goers are worst than those who don't. It just seems-and is worse because we don't expect that kind of behavior from them.

[Knut Hamsun]

By the way, it is true that we use your technology.

You are Bosnian which is European, which makes it your "west", too. Your own technology! I've been to Sarajevo, so don't give me this united ummah "we" v."them" garbage.

The Christians in my home country used the same technology for ethnical cleansing when they threw us out of our homes for being Muslims.

And they are evil scum and should burn just like the muslims who committed atrocities during the war. I am not big on double standards.

I should be more grateful.

That would be a nice start. And don't be a joker pulling the "poor muslim" card. You are Bosnian. Not Yemeni.

The people in Chechnya to, where your technology is being used for experiments on the Chechen population.

Yup. Blame the gun-smith for the armed robbery. Good logic you display. And how stupid does an area as small as Chechnya have to be to cop the heroic role and wage war with Russia. You can't tell me that makes alot of sense, whatever evil means the Russians use.

All of the Muslims, in fact, should be more grateful. Why are there some that aren't? Beats me.

Yes. It still puzzles me, too, Euroboy.

[Snowflake]

Research rape. It is not an act of sex. Rape is an act of violence.

Not just violence but a means to achieve pleasure using violence.

According to the Hite Report on US men, between seven and 11 per cent regularly fantasise about rape and one in two admit they have sometimes wanted to rape a woman.

Rape is the ‘pleasure’ of violence, but it is also a means for man to use a woman without having to give her anything in return, as he does in marriage or with a prostitute. It enables him to satisfy his needs without giving up any of his power. In fact it is the very expression of that power. In that sense rape is the archetype of masculine sexuality: when man desires, woman is not to desire or refuse. She must only acquiesce.

So rape is a violent way to achieve pleasure. It enables a man to satisfy his needs without giving up any of his power for his own pleasure. Therefore it is an act of sex.

[renak]

Not just violence but a means to achieve pleasure using violence.

According to the Hite Report on US men, between seven and 11 per cent regularly fantasise about rape and one in two admit they have sometimes wanted to rape a woman.

Rape is the ‘pleasure’ of violence, but it is also a means for man to use a woman without having to give her anything in return, as he does in marriage or with a prostitute. It enables him to satisfy his needs without giving up any of his power. In fact it is the very expression of that power. In that sense rape is the archetype of masculine sexuality: when man desires, woman is not to desire or refuse. She must only acquiesce.

So rape is a violent way to achieve pleasure. It enables a man to satisfy his needs without giving up any of his power for his own pleasure. Therefore it is an act of sex.

In some cases it may be used to achieve pleasure, I would lean more toward date rape perhaps (???). The majority of information you will find will clearly state that rape is an act of violence, not sex. This is why rape during war is very common. Also, it is very common for the rapist to not ejaculate during the attack.

http://www.endallthepain.com/Rape.html
http://www.stopfamilyviolence.org/ocean/host.php?page=0
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jha...925/myths.html

[Umm Yoosuf]

Why any women would want to display her body to the public, I don’t understand?! Suppose you have a very valuable necklace made of natural diamond or a precious jewel, you would be keen to keep it safe, at the same admire, and be fond of it. You would not go and put it freely within the hands of other people or to misallocate in such a way that it can be liable to the risks of theft and loss or alternatively to keep, fear on and conserve it in a safe place where nobody’s hand can be able to reach to or even be viewed to by whatsoever eyes. Why not liken your body to this and keep it your own business? Everyone around you knows that you posse a precious jewel, however, they cannot see or predict its shape or colour.

[renak]

Why any women would want to display her body to the public, I don’t understand?! Suppose you have a very valuable necklace made of natural diamond or a precious jewel, you would be keen to keep it safe, at the same admire, and be fond of it. You would not go and put it freely within the hands of other people or to misallocate in such a way that it can be liable to the risks of theft and loss or alternatively to keep, fear on and conserve it in a safe place where nobody’s hand can be able to reach to or even be viewed to by whatsoever eyes. Why not liken your body to this and keep it your own business? Everyone around you knows that you posse a precious jewel, however, they cannot see or predict its shape or colour.

If I had a precious jewel, I would proudly dangle it around my neck for all the world to see. I don't believe in keeping nice possessions stuffed away in a closet.

[Umm Yoosuf]

If I had a precious jewel, I would proudly dangle it around my neck for all the world to see. I don't believe in keeping nice possessions stuffed away in a closet.

In this sort of society i doubt it!

So in distinction you would flash your body to society. I would consider that as a bad conduct which degrades women prestige, honour and puts down her standards, thus making her a very cheap commodity for callers of evil and a target for eyes of evil.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

If I had a precious jewel, I would proudly dangle it around my neck for all the world to see. I don't believe in keeping nice possessions stuffed away in a closet.

God has already bestowed the best upon you wen he created you, and he created it to be shown to certain people. You dont want random strangers drooling over you im sure, in this respect islam teaches to beautify only for the right people ;)

:peace:

[renak]

In this sort of society i doubt it!

So in distinction you would flash your body to society. I would consider that as a bad conduct which degrades women prestige, honour and puts down her standards, thus making her a very cheap commodity for callers of evil and a target for eyes of evil.

If you read my prior posts on this thread you may understand my position. I am comfortable with my body and do not feel that God created us as dirty individuals.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

If you read my prior posts on this thread you may understand my position. I am comfortable with my body and do not feel that God created us as dirty individuals.

no sis, he didnt create you as dirty individuals, he created every1 in a beautiful manner. But lets not let the carnal lusts of some misguided individuals fall upon us eh :)

[renak]

no sis, he didnt create you as dirty individuals, he created every1 in a beautiful manner. But lets not let the carnal lusts of some misguided individuals fall upon us eh :)

I can handle the carnal lust of these individuals. I think that the emphasis needs to be on these individuals dealing with their own lusts. It's their problem, and it there is no need to make it mine! :okay:

[HeiGou]

Agreed. But the fact is many women do dress to win appreciation of the opposite sex and therefore send off vibes that they have something to offer. Just as an open window is an invitation to burglars. Likewise when women expose their bodies, men will think they are easy bait. So if women don't want that kind of attention, they have to take some responsility i.e. cover up.

If I wore a rolex and used a nice mobile phone, do you think that would be an invitation for someone to rob me? Do you think that if I do not want to be robbed, I should avoid that kind of attention and not be "easy bait"? Do you think I should have any sort of responsibility towards not getting robbed? More importantly do you think I am to blame if I am robbed because I did not take enough precautions?

I'm really sorry. I did not intend to insult you but was merely saying that this is what happens. Men will think like that whether women like it or not.

Some men. And the real question is whether they ought to be encouraged to do so or taught, strongly and firmly, that it is unacceptable. What do you think?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I can handle the carnal lust of these individuals. I think that the emphasis needs to be on these individuals dealing with their own lusts. It's their problem, and it there is no need to make it mine! :okay:

lol, but dont u really hate it when they stare at you? Doesnt it make you feel.... you kno :X

well me being a brother always wear loose clothing, i keep a beard, and i get ticked off at any1 who stares haha ;D

:peace: :)

[renak]

lol, but dont u really hate it when they stare at you? Doesnt it make you feel.... you kno :X

well me being a brother always wear loose clothing, i keep a beard, and i get ticked off at any1 who stares haha ;D

:peace: :)

There stares do not bother me at all. The stares do not make me feel dirty or ----ty. Instead, they make me feel womanly.

Do you get ticked off when women stare at you?

[Umm Yoosuf]

If you read my prior posts on this thread you may understand my position. I am comfortable with my body and do not feel that God created us as dirty individuals.

Yes i heard some of your replies but i could have missed out on most of your post as the thread is getting populated. There are some people in society that are just perverted!

.... I am somewhat of a slave to fashion, and love the positive response I receive from men when I am looking my best. Perhaps men are viewing me in a sexual manner. I believe that it is their weakness which allows themselves to succumb to sexual immorality. If they cannot view me as a woman who is not only comfortable with her sexuality, but also comfortable with her beliefs, then I really have no place for them in my life. It's called taking responsibility for ones actions.

In regards to me being programmed by the media, perhaps I am to an extent. However, I love looking great, and being attractive.

I was quite surpised by your saying here. Why would you want people (men in general) to view your body. Uncovering strips a woman from anything which is thought to be viewed as a semi-naked person free from reverence, solemnity and appropriate to the biased looks of diseased men, and greedy caprices which inevitably expose the charms and weakness oh her corporality.

[Umm Yoosuf]

[QUOTE=renak;245085]There stares do not bother me at all. The stares do not make me feel dirty or ----ty. Instead, they make me feel womanly.
QUOTE]

How do they make you feel womanly??

[renak]

[QUOTE=Al-Mu'minah;245096]

There stares do not bother me at all. The stares do not make me feel dirty or ----ty. Instead, they make me feel womanly.
QUOTE]

How do they make you feel womanly??

It is a recognition of me being opposite of them.

[Omar Khalil]

Aasalamu-Alakium:

To all my Muslims sisters...continue to remain covered! In my eyes & heart, there is nothing more beautiful than a Muslim woman who follows the Quran and Sunna!:Alhumdill

[Qurratul Ayn]

Assalamu Alaikum

Subhanallah Ta'ala! Mashallah Ta'ala Sister sheerheart1! Thatw as sos touching! And That was so heart-rendering!

Keepr you Imaan up and keep Allah Ta'ala on your mind alsways and alsways pray to the Almighty for guidance and help in this life.

What you said about girls nowadays it is so true so many of them go by what fashion says and the media.

Assalamu Alaikum
Shakirah

[irsha]

i guess one day they will put "prostitution" as a official occupation lol...
world is going crazy.

Peace

The worlds oldest proffesion already is an official occupation. Makes semse- its gonna happen, there is a market for it and making it legal means it can be regulated and keep the workers safe, and theypay their fair share of taxes.

[Umm Yoosuf]

It is a recognition of me being opposite of them

So the fact that they are getting pleasure at staring your body makes you feel womanly? If your daughter was in a room full of men admiring her body that would not least brother you? A true woman is a woman who pays no heed to going out naked, displaying her charms to anyone who likes thereof. Women have lost their sense of shyness (their womanly nature).

[irsha]

No, slavery would actually be impossible according to Islamic law in the society we now live in, because no free person can be enslaved outside of military conflict where there are war captives,

Sorry, I just can't let this one go. What about the Pakistan attempted genocide of Bangladesh? That could be classed as within military conflict, would that gve them the right to have enslaved the Bangladeshi people? Many people do not even know what happened there, and noone has been charged with war crimes, it was all swept under the carpet. So, seeing no muslim country (other than Bangladesh) is calling for war crimes to be charged, is that a silent condoning of what happened there? I mean, the way they treated people in a "military conflict"?

No because God commands men and women to dress in the modest manner outlined in the Qur'an and the Sunnah whereas there is no command to take slaves.

In your opinion

Really?! I think that is a very sad statement. The plight of women who are forced to sell their bodies to strangers in the street is worsened when it is not recognized by others. The poverty of these women allows others to take advantage of them and abuse them. Do you think these women have any influence on society when they cannot even influence who gets to use their body next? If you really thik that prostitution is a position of power and authority, then why do the vast majority of women find the idea of selling their body for money to be degrading and despicable?

That is their right to think that, but have you asked the vast majority if they really think that? I think it would depend on how you asked the question. Many would have their price when it came down to it, after the movie "indecent proposal" I asked a few women who's first reaction was - "no way" when I asked them, what if someone offered you 10 million dollars, thinking of how much charity they could do- quess what, many changed their tune. Also, ask a Palestinian women would she do it for the price of freedom for her whole country- I can quess what the answer may be. The point is- everyone has their price, some just higher than others.
Peace.

Pleasse read the red response

[renak]

So the fact that they are getting pleasure at staring your body makes you feel womanly? If your daughter was in a room full of men admiring her body that would not least brother you? A true woman is a woman who pays no heed to going out naked, displaying her charms to anyone who likes thereof. Women have lost their sense of shyness (their womanly nature).

If my daughter were an adult, I would be very proud of her.

I may have lost my shyness; however, I luckily developed a high self-esteem. I am not going to let the lazy, weak men who can't control their lusty natures dictate what I should wear. In addition, I enjoy the male form and think men should enjoy the female form.

If you would like to truly understand my position, I would suggest reading my earlier posts on this thread. I'd love have some of my questions answered. Thanks!

[Umm Yoosuf]

If my daughter were an adult, I would be very proud of her.

:offended:

I may have lost my shyness; however, I luckily developed a high self-esteem.

Can't you keeping your body to you ownself give you that high self seteem?

In addition, I enjoy the male form and think men should enjoy the female form.

Im sure. Islamically speaking there is nothing wrong with it as long as it meets the shari'ah requirements i.e enjoying the pleasure of your husband. Thats the natural way.

If you would like to truly understand my position, I would suggest reading my earlier posts on this thread. I'd love have some of my questions answered. Thanks

Perhaps you could provide me a link to the post’s would like me to read though.

[irsha]

The thread is how christian women view muslim women, I think there are far more posts on how muslim women view christian women.
Anyway,
You cannot understand how western women dress and are so uninhibitted, many of us cannot understand how muslim women are so covered and kept from public eyes, especially when wearing the viel hiding your beautiful smiles.
It all comes down to culture. We should each have an understanding of how the other feels, isn't that why this thread was opened?
I have no problem the human body being seen, but I also have no problem with women who do'nt want to be seen. The only time it is a problem is when one tries to tell the other what they MUST do.

[_Mujahida]

:sl:
Very interesting. It's true that Muslim women are perceived as oppressed by alot of people. It's a shame, because most Muslimahs feel liberated by their hijab. Islam gave us rights that modern women were only given in the last 100 years. Alot of people forget this and think we are 'hiding' behind the veil, and our fathers/husbands have probably beaten us into wearing hijab. Subhan-Allah.
:w:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

There stares do not bother me at all. The stares do not make me feel dirty or ----ty. Instead, they make me feel womanly.

Do you get ticked off when women stare at you?

if they do stare its coz i luk like a MUJAHID ;D but honestly sis.... these people are having very dirty thoughts when they look at you. These dirty thoughts will lead to dirty actions as the saying goes,

be careful of your thoughts they turn into words
be careful of your words they turn into actions...

so plz do be careful coz men... there not simply appreciating your feminine qualities... believe me there going more then that :X

[irsha]

:sl:
Very interesting. It's true that Muslim women are perceived as oppressed by alot of people. It's a shame, because most Muslimahs feel liberated by their hijab. Islam gave us rights that modern women were only given in the last 100 years. Alot of people forget this and think we are 'hiding' behind the veil, and our fathers/husbands have probably beaten us into wearing hijab. Subhan-Allah.
:w:

That is very interesting, that you feel liberated, so do I, I feel liberated when I can dress how I want. There is nohing like the feeling of liberation when I go to a nude beach, so we each fel liberated, but in different ways.
As to the other thing you said, I don't see how what happened over 1400 to 100 years ago maters, tere is hardly anyone left alive that can remember that.

[_Mujahida]

I think history does matter, it tells alot. If you feel liberated by that, and you are allowed to do that, why can't we dress the way we feel comfortable? Or must we be forced to feel violated?

[renak]

:offended:




Can't you keeping your body to you ownself give you that high self seteem?


Sure. It works both ways. I am sure you can obtain a high self-esteem being covered. However, in my society, as a working woman, I would not be accepted if I were covered. Dressing in modern fashion is a necessity.

Im sure. Islamically speaking there is nothing wrong with it as long as it meets the shari'ah requirements i.e enjoying the pleasure of your husband. Thats the natural way.

In all due respect, I've yet to be convinced that traditional dress is a requirement in Islam.

Perhaps you could provide me a link to the post’s would like me to read though.

I was just referring to my posts on this thread.

[irsha]

Hey, thats a bit unfair, I already said you have every right to dress how you want, and so do I, it only becomes a problem if one of us tells the other what they MUST do.

[Umm Yoosuf]

I was just referring to my posts on this thread.

Which post's :rollseyes

[hamzaa]

The thread is how christian women view muslim women, I think there are far more posts on how muslim women view christian women.
Anyway,
You cannot understand how western women dress and are so uninhibitted, many of us cannot understand how muslim women are so covered and kept from public eyes, especially when wearing the viel hiding your beautiful smiles.
It all comes down to culture. We should each have an understanding of how the other feels, isn't that why this thread was opened?
I have no problem the human body being seen, but I also have no problem with women who do'nt want to be seen. The only time it is a problem is when one tries to tell the other what they MUST do.

Peace, its not a cultural issue.........

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Hey, thats a bit unfair, I already said you have every right to dress how you want, and so do I, it only becomes a problem if one of us tells the other what they MUST do.

I agree. That's why i think this ban is unfair.:offended:

[hamzaa]

Which post's :rollseyes

salaam, those posts!;D

[irsha]

what ban?

[renak]

[QUOTE=irsha;245146]The thread is how christian women view muslim women, I think there are far more posts on how muslim women view christian women.
QUOTE]

This does seem to be the unfortunate case. It does appear that the Muslim woman has a much harder time accepting and respecting the non-muslim woman, than vice versa. This makes me wonder why there are SO many threads pertaining to the Muslim woman trying to defend her attire. To be quite honest, I don't think that many non-muslim women care how the Muslim woman dresses (nor do they tend to pass judgement).

[irsha]

True, I couldn't care less what they wear. I certainly would not weasr it, but then I wouldn't wear a drop waist skirt either.

[renak]

:sl:
Very interesting. It's true that Muslim women are perceived as oppressed by alot of people. It's a shame, because most Muslimahs feel liberated by their hijab. Islam gave us rights that modern women were only given in the last 100 years. Alot of people forget this and think we are 'hiding' behind the veil, and our fathers/husbands have probably beaten us into wearing hijab. Subhan-Allah.
:w:

I don't know where you are located. However, I really don't think that the majority of people in the USA view the Muslim woman as being oppressed, or automatically consider them to be victims of domestic abuse. I think the Muslim woman is fretting about this needlessly.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

what ban?

sorry... wrong thread:p

[renak]

if they do stare its coz i luk like a MUJAHID ;D but honestly sis.... these people are having very dirty thoughts when they look at you. These dirty thoughts will lead to dirty actions as the saying goes,

be careful of your thoughts they turn into words
be careful of your words they turn into actions...

so plz do be careful coz men... there not simply appreciating your feminine qualities... believe me there going more then that :X

Abd'Majid, I do appreciate your concern. However, the dirty thoughts of men do not concern me. In fact, if the men are incapable of seeing past my physical attributes, they are probably quite easy for me to manipulate. Thus, I can use them to my advantage.

[Umm Yoosuf]

This does seem to be the unfortunate case. It does appear that the Muslim woman has a much harder time accepting and respecting the non-muslim woman, than vice versa. This makes me wonder why there are SO many threads pertaining to the Muslim woman trying to defend her attire. To be quite honest,

Bearing in mind that this forum is a populated by muslims then of course people are going to defend the Hijab and are for Covering. I don't dislike non-muslim women i just don't like their action's and how they make their bodies public.

I don't think that many non-muslim women care how the Muslim woman dresses (nor do they tend to pass judgement).

The number of non-muslim women who are interesting in the way i dress is phenomenal. Also the number of women I have seen revert to Islam due them finding the beauty of the HIjab is amazing.

Some if not all do pass judgements. There a the few that just except the Hijab. I think what is shocking to most non-Muslim women is the fact that we Muslim actually feel sorry for the you dress. Many non-Muslim are expecting the Muslim women to say, “I wish I was librated” or “I am oppressed” however, you come to relies that we feel comfortable and our perspective of the Hijab is a noble view.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I don't know where you are located. However, I really don't think that the majority of people in the USA view the Muslim woman as being oppressed, or automatically consider them to be victims of domestic abuse. I think the Muslim woman is fretting about this needlessly.

Uh no... you should see the comments I get. One day i came to school with a face cover, and my tutor asked me if i had been forced into a marriage.....:rollseyes.

[irsha]

I am from Australia. I dont think we actually think much about them as far as they are dressed, but there is a certain amount of distrust when you see them, from the point of view that they dont mix with us, they tend to keep to themselves, we never see them smile or laugh, and of course there is the terrorism thing, one does get a bit uncomfortable when a muslim walks in wearing a backpack.

[HeiGou]

It's true that Muslim women are perceived as oppressed by alot of people. It's a shame, because most Muslimahs feel liberated by their hijab.

Well, without wanting to sound rude, how do you know? Have you polled all that many? I know of a lot of Muslimas who say that but if pushed say the real reason they wear it is because God wants them to. Which is not the same as feeling liberated.

Islam gave us rights that modern women were only given in the last 100 years.

This one comes up a lot too. What rights do you have in mind? To a limited extent you are right in that the Victorian period in the English-speaking world was tough on women's property rights. But they gave women other rights as well. Still you can't, in all fairness, take a very restricted period of time, in a very restricted part of the world, and argue that applies to all non-Muslim women in the world, can you? And even then, what makes you think that Muslim women were better off than English women in the late Nineteenth century? A lot of Muslim men came to the West and saw Western women and I assure you precisely none of them I know of said, poor Western women look how oppressed they are! What they said is, more or less, Western men allow their women a shameless degree of freedom and immorality.

Alot of people forget this and think we are 'hiding' behind the veil, and our fathers/husbands have probably beaten us into wearing hijab.

That may not be true for you, but do you think it might be true for some? Some people see the need to enforce hijab by throwing acid at women or cutting them with razors. Do you think that the women who wear it because of those threats are oppressed?

[Umm Yoosuf]

I am from Australia. I dont think we actually think much about them as far as they are dressed, but there is a certain amount of distrust when you see them, from the point of view that they dont mix with us, they tend to keep to themselves, we never see them smile or laugh, and of course there is the terrorism thing, one does get a bit uncomfortable when a muslim walks in wearing a backpack.

How about you pop in a mosque and talked to some muslim women. In my local mosque we normally get non-muslim visitors. The Non-muslim women go to the sisters section and they talk to us and learn bit about Islam. We joke and lught with them and they with us also we answer their question. There is where they truly find sisterhood. And alot of their misconception about Islam flies out of the window. Some revert to Islam and some do not choose to either way we try our best to stay in contact :)

[renak]

Bearing in mind that this forum is a populated by muslims then of course people are going to defend the Hijab and are for Covering. I don't dislike non-muslim women i just don't like their action's and how they make their bodies public.

I do understand that this is an Islamic forum. However, the Hijab was never insulted. There is no need to defend it. I find it disheartening that many feel the need to insult the western dress.


The number of non-muslim women who are interesting in the way i dress is phenomenal. Also the number of women I have seen revert to Islam due them finding the beauty of the HIjab is amazing.

Some if not all do pass judgements. There a the few that just except the Hijab. I think what is shocking to most non-Muslim women is the fact that we Muslim actually feel sorry for the you dress. Many non-Muslim are expecting the Muslim women to say, “I wish I was librated” or “I am oppressed” however, you come to relies that we feel comfortable and our perspective of the Hijab is a noble view.

You probably live in an area in which the Muslims have not integrated into Western society. What you explained above would bother me a bit. I'm just used to living in an area in which the Muslims have fully integrated, and dress like Westerners.

On a lighter note, I have offered to my boyfriend that I would wear Hijab because it would be easier than styling my hair.:okay:

[Umm Yoosuf]

On a lighter note, I have offered to my boyfriend that I would wear Hijab because it would be easier than styling my hair.:okay:

hahahahaha

Yeah just pop it on...no one will see your when your having a bad hair day;)

[renak]

hahahahaha

Yeah just pop it on...no one will see your when your having a bad hair day;)

My idea exactly! I even offered to wear the burka, but he wasn't interested in that either. See, where I live, Muslims really don't find covering to be of importance. It is interesting to hear about women in other regions, who still adhere to the dress code.

[Umm Yoosuf]

My idea exactly! I even offered to wear the burka, but he wasn't interested in that either. See, where I live, Muslims really don't find covering to be of importance. It is interesting to hear about women in other regions, who still adhere to the dress code.

Is your boyfriend muslim is he:rollseyes

Well thats the difference between practising Muslim's and not practising Muslim's. The Hijab is a command from Allah to the women.

[renak]

Is your boyfriend muslim is he:rollseyes

Well thats the difference between practising Muslim's and not practising Muslim's. The Hijab is a command from Allah to the women.

He is muslim. However, very few muslims in my area wear the hijab. Most would still consider themselves practicing muslims.

[Umm Yoosuf]

He is muslim. However, very few muslims in my area wear the hijab. Most would still consider themselves practicing muslims.

Your area been....?

May Allah guide him. How about you invite him to the fourm. Hijab is not merely a covering dress of the head. Theres more to the Hijab then this:)

[Abu Zakariya]

:sl:

Keep it clean and respectful, please.

I think this was a fair question to ask.

When a brother criticized prostitution, Knut asked him if he did this because he was offended because prostitution preceded Islam, according to him.

I think it's fair then to ask him if he is offended and defends prostitution because it is maybe the profession of his sister and mother. Maybe even his girlfriend/wife? If he has one.
That may very well be the reason for his defence of prostitution.

[Mohsin]

hey renak you're a christian right and you believe in the NT

Well Jesus PBUH says

You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'. But I say to you that everyone who so much as looks at woman with evil desire for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matt. 5:2728)

Now adultery is a big sin. If you're gonna dress in a revealing way so that men look at you, you're causing them to committ adultery. So you're helping them sin. Can't you see here Jesus PBUH has said you can't look at a woman. it's the same with islam, its what is says in the Qur'an, for us to lower our gazes, but Islam is practical, it provides a way, by having hijab for sisters so that men don't look with evil desires

[HeiGou]

Now adultery is a big sin. If you're gonna dress in a revealing way so that men look at you, you're causing them to committ adultery. So you're helping them sin. Can't you see here Jesus PBUH has said you can't look at a woman. it's the same with islam, its what is says in the Qur'an, for us to lower our gazes, but Islam is practical, it provides a way, by having hijab for sisters so that men don't look with evil desires

Actually it is not quite the same with Islam - at least not the Islam we have seen displayed around here. Jesus does not blame the women. He says if a man looks at a woman with lust in his heart, he has sinned. Not if a man has looked at a woman with lust is his heart, she's a ----.

Now I do not know what Islam says specifically, but the way that it is sometimes crudely interpreted around here is problematic.

[suhura]

I can see that renak and her friend is frustrated by our fellow muslimah who are defending the hijab by criticising the modern women dress code instead.

I feel the same too about the modern women dressing. One reason for us muslims to feel so is because of how women are being treated.

Did you know that before Islam was introduced women had no rights to speak up, to decide, to education and to earn. They were treated as slaves, men used them to earn money by selling them off as prostitues. women at that time didnt wear much clothings. Basically, women were deppressed and oppressed!

When Islam came into this world prophet muhammad pbuh helped women by letting them know that they have a right to be respected as a human not as an object for sexual desires.

One of these rights meant to cover themselves with clothings that only reveals the palm and face so man are not distracted by sexual desires when communicating with women.

Generally, women have gone through so much just to be respected as an equal. Just think, how could women have made that leap from being used to being liberated? Men's weakness is women's body. So Men can only see the real us if we cover ourselves.

Educated Muslim woman who wear hijab are just angry as to why women want to go back to that time by wearing dresses that are revealing.We want to be seen and heard as an individual by speaking up not by revealing our assets.

[HeiGou]

Did you know that before Islam was introduced women had no rights to speak up, to decide, to education and to earn. They were treated as slaves, men used them to earn money by selling them off as prostitues. women at that time didnt wear much clothings. Basically, women were deppressed and oppressed!

Really? This is the same society that produce Khadija? Didn't she run her own business - sending men to Syria to trade. Didn't she choose her own husband over the choices of her father? In what way did she not have the right to speak up and to decide? As for getting educated, well, few people back then got educated but what is the evidence that Khadija did not? She certainly had the right to earn her own living didn't she? How can you claim that she, or any other Arab woman before Islam, was treated as a slave? Muslimas converted, can you name one that was sold off as a prostitute because of it? I may not be reading the right accounts, but they sounds neither depressed nor oppressed to me. Why do you think they were?

And, incidentally, the Arab world was a tiny part of the larger world. Even if all this applied to Arab women in Mecca, what makes you think it applied to anyone else?

When Islam came into this world prophet muhammad pbuh helped women by letting them know that they have a right to be respected as a human not as an object for sexual desires.

Can you name a Muslim woman who had a career like Khadija's?

Men's weakness is women's body. So Men can only see the real us if we cover ourselves.

Some men perhaps, but do you think that really applies to all men?

Educated Muslim woman who wear hijab are just angry as to why women want to go back to that time by wearing dresses that are revealing.We want to be seen and heard as an individual by speaking up not by revealing our assets.

What makes you think you will be seen and heard at all? Are the women of Saudi Arabia seen and heard much?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

First of all, last warning to everyone - stay on topic or the thread will be closed.

Hello Renak,

I would say that it is a very good assumption that it was man made.

I don't care for conjecture, imagination or assumptions, especially when they are illogical as men only lose from women covering themselves and abstaining from sex.

Sure. Explain in more detail please.

Which part did you not understand?

Are you saying that slavery does or does not exist in Islamic Law?

Islam restricted the sources of slavery and encouraged (mandated in some cases) the freeing of slaves - this has already been covered in this topic:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ave-girls.html

Not all muslims on this site practice modest dress. I've known very few muslims, out of very many, who practice modest dress. Are you saying that these individuals are wrong? If only those muslims who practice modest dress are true muslims, I would venture to say that this world has far fewer muslims than it likes others to believe.

Muslims who do not adhere to the laws of Islam are mistaken and have erred but that doesn't mean they are automatically disbelievers. May God help us all to improve in the practice our religion.

However, you are neglecting to take into account the prostitutes who make the decision to enter into the profession, and control all aspects of their lives. In the USA they are quite numerous.

I am not neglecting that. You said that when someone is reduced to an object of desire they increase in power, authority, and influence - a statment that is blatantly false. A person of authority and influence is one who is intelligent and can lead others; you do the greatest disservice to women when you state that their greatest influence is as a material possesion.

However, in my society, as a working woman, I would not be accepted if I were covered. Dressing in modern fashion is a necessity.

This is the part where I say, "Aha!" Can you not see the problem in what you have just said? Can you not see the contradiction in claiming liberation and then admitting that
a) you would not be accepted in society if you did not dress in a revealing manner pleasing to men and
b) that a woman in western society has maximum influence when she is reduced to an object of desire.

These are both points you have made which indicate that the position of women in your society is much worse than it seems.

Hello Irsha,
You missed my post here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/243862-post68.html

I would really like your response to my comments on your statements that I found to be franlky very bigoted and narrow-minded.

Hey, thats a bit unfair, I already said you have every right to dress how you want, and so do I, it only becomes a problem if one of us tells the other what they MUST do.

I think the problem comes in you statements that you feel sorry for Muslims who are "shackled by their jealous rules" - such a statement reeks of intolerance and effectively negates your claim of mutual respect.

No because God commands men and women to dress in the modest manner outlined in the Qur'an and the Sunnah whereas there is no command to take slaves.

In your opinion

No, not in my opinion, it's fact. Show me a quote from the Qur'an or Sunnah mandating slavery.

That is their right to think that, but have you asked the vast majority if they really think that? I think it would depend on how you asked the question. Many would have their price when it came down to it, after the movie "indecent proposal" I asked a few women who's first reaction was - "no way" when I asked them, what if someone offered you 10 million dollars, thinking of how much charity they could do- quess what, many changed their tune. Also, ask a Palestinian women would she do it for the price of freedom for her whole country- I can quess what the answer may be. The point is- everyone has their price, some just higher than others.

Thank you for proving my point. You just pointed out that these women only do it for the money or freedom, not because they find the job elevating or influential - if they had an alternative to get the money or freedom they would do it.

peace.

[Lush]

Why any women would want to display her body to the public, I don’t understand?! Suppose you have a very valuable necklace made of natural diamond or a precious jewel, you would be keen to keep it safe, at the same admire, and be fond of it. You would not go and put it freely within the hands of other people or to misallocate in such a way that it can be liable to the risks of theft and loss or alternatively to keep, fear on and conserve it in a safe place where nobody’s hand can be able to reach to or even be viewed to by whatsoever eyes. Why not liken your body to this and keep it your own business? Everyone around you knows that you posse a precious jewel, however, they cannot see or predict its shape or colour.

This is an argument I encounter over and over again on messageboards, and websites, and the like.

A Muslim woman who willingly objectifies herself by comparing herself to an inanimate object.

You are not a necklace! You're a human being! Dress however you like, wear an abaya, a niqaab, or peacock feather, but DO NOT, for the sake of all that is holy in all of us, compare yourself to a pretty little rock! You have a soul! You are NOT an object!

On another thread, a Muslim guy compared a woman to a hamburger, and then everyone got all surprised when I took issue with that... Holy cow, do people not realize that by doing this they are practicing basic dehumanization?!

[Umm Yoosuf]

I see you have no other objectives. Stop been so critical and debate my point.

[Lush]

I have already posted my comments regarding dress code on this thread, you're welcome to read them, they're a few pages back.

Dehumanizing yourself and other women like you have just done is a real issue. Think about the implications of your words before you compare women to pretty playthings or anything of that matter. I've got a number of female Muslim friends who say that wearing hijab makes them feel closer to God and farther away from the material world. That's a point of view I respect, not demeaning statements that reduce women to glittering inanimate objects.

[Lush]

LOL

I just got a negative rep from cool_jannah for stating the obvious:

If he's so worried about other men looking at his future wife, how come he's not worried about other women checking him out?

Guess female agency is a non-issue to some he-man types... ;) Not worried about other women checking you out, eh? Think it's "unreasonable"? Welcome to my world...

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Really?

While one cannot paint all societies with the same brush, it is true that women in pre-islamic times were generally treated very poorly. Please see:
http://al-ibaanah.com/articles.php?ArtID=66
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/Th...omen_in_Islam/
http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/essays/herstory.html
http://www.islamicvoice.com/March200...56b107f8bfaa9d

The pagan arabs were particularly oppressive towards their daughters. This is why we find so many ahadith protecting the rights of daughters in Islam. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said:
Whoever cares for three daugthers, and gives them a good upbringing, marries them (to good husbands) and treats them well, he/she will enter paradise. (Sunan Abi Dawud)

And he said:
Whoever had a daughter born to him, and he did not humiliate her, and he did not prefer his son over her, Allah will admit him/her to Paradise because of her. (Mustadarak Al-Haakim)

So the Prophet Muhammad pbuh had to forbid humiliating daughters and prefering one's sns over them because these were common practices amongst the arab tribes. And we haven't even begun to talk about female infanticide amongst the pre-islamic arabs.

This is the same society that produce Khadija?

Khadija inherited the business after her father's death, but her tribe's practice in this regard was certainly not the norm amongst the arabs.

Can you name a Muslim woman who had a career like Khadija's?

Khadija herself was a Muslim woman and none other than the wife of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and there were many others like her. There was a prominent trader named Qaila who sought the Prophet's advice in her business (Ibn Sa'd, Tabaqat, vol. 8, p. 228). The wife of Abdullah ibn Mas'ood is another example - One day, she went to the Prophet and said: "I am a craftswoman; I make things and sell them. But my husband and children have no means of liveihood." She then enquired whether she could spend her earnings on them. The Prophet said, "Yes; you will get a reward for this." (Al-Isbah fi taymiz al-Sahabah, vol. 4, p. 310). Asma bint Makhrama had a business in perfumery. (Ibn Sad, Tabaqat, vol. 8, p. 220). And the Prophet's wife Sauda bint Zama'ah had a profession in the tanning of skins (Bukhari). Women's involvement in the marketplace was also comon, such as the case of Amra bint Tabikh (Ibn Sad, Tabaqat, vol.8, p. 212). And Umar ibn Al-Khattab appointed Shifa bint Abdullah as the administrator of the marketplace in Madinah (Al-Isti'ab fi Asma' al-Ahsab). And then there are the women who were involved in agriculture, such as Asma bint Abi Bakr (Bukhari and Muslim) and the woman who used to tend the date palms and was encouraged to do so by the Porphet pbuh (Musannaf Abd ar-Razzaq).

Regards

[Knut Hamsun]

Lush:

LOL

I just got a negative rep from cool_jannah for stating the obvious:

If he's so worried about other men looking at his future wife, how come he's not worried about other women checking him out?

I, too, argued against a similair double standard with cool-jannah but have yet to hear anything back from him.
I say this b/c this issue relates directly to the topic and should be examined.

[renak]

hey renak you're a christian right and you believe in the NT

Well Jesus PBUH says


Now adultery is a big sin. If you're gonna dress in a revealing way so that men look at you, you're causing them to committ adultery. So you're helping them sin. Can't you see here Jesus PBUH has said you can't look at a woman. it's the same with islam, its what is says in the Qur'an, for us to lower our gazes, but Islam is practical, it provides a way, by having hijab for sisters so that men don't look with evil desires

Hello Moss, the scripture you listed is correct. However, Christianity (protestant) allows for open translation. For example, I could look at these two scriptures and say that the meaning is to make men recognize that no one is without sin. Instead of ostracizing a woman or man who have engaged in an unmarried sexual act, men need to look at their own lusty desires. Did they just admire the beauty of another woman, and not act upon it because they were rejected by the woman, were they too insecure to approach her??? Perhaps if they were given the opportunity to do more than gaze at the woman, they most definitely would. Therefore, they are equal in sin. There are endless interpretations......this is just one I quickly thought up. Christian translation may not be as black and white as the Muslim translation.

Nonetheless, I think the main focus should be on personal responsibility for ones own actions. Learning to deal with our lust and desire is a form of self-growth, and I don't think God likes to see us stagnant.

I also fail to understand how hijab keeps the male desire at bay. Perhaps there is much more to it than covering your hair. I just don't know many men who lust after hair. Instead, I think they would be lusting after the breasts, hips, legs....

[irsha]

I would really like your response to my comments on your statements that I found to be franlky very bigoted and narrow-minded.


Quote:
Hey, thats a bit unfair, I already said you have every right to dress how you want, and so do I, it only becomes a problem if one of us tells the other what they MUST do.

I think the problem comes in you statements that you feel sorry for Muslims who are "shackled by their jealous rules" - such a statement reeks of intolerance and effectively negates your claim of mutual respect.

I do feel sorry for them, because I think they do not get to feel the joy of freely expressing themeselves, and I have had many, many muslims say they feel sorry for me because of their reasons. I don't ask them to stop dressing the way they do, in fact they never talk to us anyway, so how could I? I still feel the rules were formed by jealous husbands etc, but thats only my opinion, of course you will disagree. In any case, you girls can wear whatever you like, as I said, its not what I would wear, but I wouldnt wear anything I consider daggy and drab. Now ansar, you really must stop thinking that every time someone dissagrees that they are being biggotted, lying or insulting. I have been insulted far more times by muslims than I have ever insulted muslims, why can't you just converse?



Quote:
Originally Posted by irsha
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
No because God commands men and women to dress in the modest manner outlined in the Qur'an and the Sunnah whereas there is no command to take slaves.

In your opinion

I meant in your opinion about the God commanding men and women to dress in modest manner, I don't believe God commanded any such thing, because I don't believe the koran is Gods word, but again, thats my opinion, you have stated yours.[/COLOR

No, not in my opinion, it's fact. Show me a quote from the Qur'an or Sunnah mandating slavery.

I never said that slavery was mandated, now who is puting words intop who's mouth? but I see that it is allowed according to you, in times of military action, which I also see you carefully avoided my question about the Pakistan invasion of Bangladesh?

Quote:
That is their right to think that, but have you asked the vast majority if they really think that? I think it would depend on how you asked the question. Many would have their price when it came down to it, after the movie "indecent proposal" I asked a few women who's first reaction was - "no way" when I asked them, what if someone offered you 10 million dollars, thinking of how much charity they could do- quess what, many changed their tune. Also, ask a Palestinian women would she do it for the price of freedom for her whole country- I can quess what the answer may be. The point is- everyone has their price, some just higher than others.

Thank you for proving my point. You just pointed out that these women only do it for the money or freedom, not because they find the job elevating or influential - if they had an alternative to get the money or freedom they would do it.

I didn't prove your point at all, I was not even arguing about that point. I know some girls who are sex workers, and they love their job, they get paid huge money, they have made enough to set themselves up for life. They enjoy the work, and given an alternative- like working in another job, they wouldnt take it. I like my work, I even do some erotic dancing, I would not stop even if someone paid me the same money to do nothing, I like doing it, its fun.

peace.

[renak]

First of all, last warning to everyone - stay on topic or the thread will be closed.

Hello Renak,

I don't care for conjecture, imagination or assumptions, especially when they are illogical as men only lose from women covering themselves and abstaining from sex.
I feel you are being disrespectful and rude. I feel no need to post multiple internet articles, or links to religious opinions just to appease you. You didn't like my previous answer, that is fine. I'm not asking anyone to accept my beliefs, just to respect them. I am respecting all other beliefs, and have enough faith in humanity to believe that I should be afforded the same treatment.

Which part did you not understand?

Clearly the whole part.

Islam restricted the sources of slavery and encouraged (mandated in some cases) the freeing of slaves - this has already been covered in this topic:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ave-girls.html

I read your link, and many others. I still feel that you are avoiding my initial question. The position of slavery has changed in Islam. Therefore, why is it not an allowable option (notice I did not say mandatory) to allow women to drop hijab?

Muslims who do not adhere to the laws of Islam are mistaken and have erred but that doesn't mean they are automatically disbelievers. May God help us all to improve in the practice our religion.
I'll accept this, as your opinion only.

I am not neglecting that. You said that when someone is reduced to an object of desire they increase in power, authority, and influence - a statment that is blatantly false. A person of authority and influence is one who is intelligent and can lead others; you do the greatest disservice to women when you state that their greatest influence is as a material possesion.

I thought we were debating? I don't consider this to be a matter of I'm right and your wrong. I'm not all knowing, are you???? By the way, if you read my prior posts on this thread you will not find me likening women to material possesions.

This is the part where I say, "Aha!" Can you not see the problem in what you have just said?
Can you not see the contradiction in claiming liberation and then admitting that
a) you would not be accepted in society if you did not dress in a revealing manner pleasing to men and
b) that a woman in western society has maximum influence when she is reduced to an object of desire.

These are both points you have made which indicate that the position of women in your society is much worse than it seems.
No, I do not see your perceived contradiction. I never stated that a woman would have to be dressed in a revealing manner (I believe I said stylish, or fashionable, something to that extent). I also believe that you are misinterpreting my statements. A woman won't have maximum influence in western society if she is just the object of desire. She has to offer intelligence, an education, empathy, etc... She has to offer the whole package.

I also want to point out that we are all objects of desire, and have our own objects of desire. Why do you have to view it as being "reduced". I think it is much nicer and loving to think of it as being "lifted".
Hello Irsha,
You missed my post here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/243862-post68.html

I would really like your response to my comments on your statements that I found to be franlky very bigoted and narrow-minded.


I think the problem comes in you statements that you feel sorry for Muslims who are "shackled by their jealous rules" - such a statement reeks of intolerance and effectively negates your claim of mutual respect.


No, not in my opinion, it's fact. Show me a quote from the Qur'an or Sunnah mandating slavery.


Thank you for proving my point. You just pointed out that these women only do it for the money or freedom, not because they find the job elevating or influential - if they had an alternative to get the money or freedom they would do it.

peace.

:) :) :)

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings irsha,

I do feel sorry for them

Do you see the difference between feeling sorry for someone and respecting someone for the way they choose to live?

because I think they do not get to feel the joy of freely expressing themeselves

Well you wrote quite a bigoted paragraph which I responded to here, illustrating the flaws in your reasoning and how it could just as easily be turned around.

I meant in your opinion about the God commanding men and women to dress in modest manner, I don't believe God commanded any such thing, because I don't believe the koran is Gods word, but again, thats my opinion, you have stated yours.

Okay, thank you for clarifying. In this case my point stands.

which I also see you carefully avoided my question about the Pakistan invasion of Bangladesh?

Because I had already referred you to the thread where this question was discussed in great detail:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ave-girls.html
Read the thread and if you feel that your question has still not been answered, post it there and I'll be more than happy to discuss it.

That is their right to think that, but have you asked the vast majority if they really think that? I think it would depend on how you asked the question. Many would have their price when it came down to it, after the movie "indecent proposal" I asked a few women who's first reaction was - "no way" when I asked them, what if someone offered you 10 million dollars, thinking of how much charity they could do- quess what, many changed their tune. Also, ask a Palestinian women would she do it for the price of freedom for her whole country- I can quess what the answer may be. The point is- everyone has their price, some just higher than others.

Here you mentioned quite explicitly the views of the majority, and that is what established my point. Most women, according to you, find such an occupation degrading. And that was exactly my point.


Greetings renak,

I'm not asking anyone to accept my beliefs, just to respect them.

And how are you respecting the beliefs of others when you accuse them of blindly following man-made laws? You didn't say, "In my opinion...." you said quite clearly, "Of course this regulation was created by males.". Now if this is just your personal conjecture which you cannot back up with evidence, don't expect it to be taken as evidence in a factual debate.

About the Nuns, you wrote:

Modest dress is something common to religious women. When someone sees a Nun dressed in this manner, what message does that send?

It sends the message that they don't want sex now, or anytime in their lifetime.

And how do you think such women are looked upon by society?

Clearly the whole part.

There's a difference between saying, "I believe I can reject God's rules" and saying, "Sometimes I fall prey to temptation and violate the rules, but I still believe I am mandated to follow them".

I read your link, and many others. I still feel that you are avoiding my initial question. The position of slavery has changed in Islam. Therefore, why is it not an allowable option (notice I did not say mandatory) to allow women to drop hijab?

If you read the entire thread, you wouldn't have this question because it was made very clear. And I have explained this multiple times in this thread as well. Once again: hijab is mandatory in Islam, it is a religious practice. Slavery is not, it was a cultural practice that Islam worked to remove.

By the way, if you read my prior posts on this thread you will not find me likening women to material possesions.

How about this:

I have the upper hand with a man who views me only as an object of desire. [*]

A clear indication that you believe women have value and advantage when they are viwed ONLY as an OBJECT of desire.

I also believe that you are misinterpreting my statements.

Am I? Let's take a look again:

However, in my society, as a working woman, I would not be accepted if I were covered.

a) you would not be accepted in society if you did not dress in a revealing manner pleasing to men and

I have the upper hand with a man who views me only as an object of desire. [*]

b) that a woman in western society has maximum influence when she is reduced to an object of desire.

I haven't misinterpreted anything; you've made your position quite clear.



Hello Lush,

You are not a necklace! You're a human being! Dress however you like, wear an abaya, a niqaab, or peacock feather, but DO NOT, for the sake of all that is holy in all of us, compare yourself to a pretty little rock! You have a soul! You are NOT an object!

Dehumanizing yourself and other women like you have just done is a real issue.

I think some of the statements from non-muslims on this thread are the most dehumanizing of all. Take the following example:

I have the upper hand with a man who views me only as an object of desire. [*]

What is your opinion on the mentality of your fellow western women who view themselves as most influential when they are only an object of desire?

Regards

[renak]

Greetings renak,

And how are you respecting the beliefs of others when you accuse them of blindly following man-made laws? You didn't say, "In my opinion...." you said quite clearly, "Of course this regulation was created by males.". Now if this is just your personal conjecture which you cannot back up with evidence, don't expect it to be taken as evidence in a factual debate.

There is no need to say, "In my opinion..." for I typed the words; therefore, they cannot be anyone elses opinion. If I were to offer up the opinion of another person, I would provide the source. This is the rule of composition. Perhaps the rule of online composition differs??????
About the Nuns, you wrote:

And how do you think such women are looked upon by society?

I don't know where I stated this, or in the context it was stated. Are you sure this was me?

There's a difference between saying, "I believe I can reject God's rules" and saying, "Sometimes I fall prey to temptation and violate the rules, but I still believe I am mandated to follow them".

Thanks for the clarification.
If you read the entire thread, you wouldn't have this question because it was made very clear. And I have explained this multiple times in this thread as well. Once again: hijab is mandatory in Islam, it is a religious practice. Slavery is not, it was a cultural practice that Islam worked to remove.

I actually did read the thread and your posts. However, this is the first time I've been able to make sense out of what you are saying. Again, thank you for the clarification. I believe that I, and many others on this forum, may be unable to differentiate between the cultural and religious practices of Islam. Would you happen to know of an easy to decipher list which outlines these two very different types of practices? I'm not interested in the he said/she said, I said/you said opinions. I want to deal with the cold facts, and nothing else.

How about this:

A clear indication that you believe women have value and advantage when they are viwed ONLY as an OBJECT of desire.



Am I? Let's take a look again:


a) you would not be accepted in society if you did not dress in a revealing manner pleasing to men and

These are your strictly your words.

b) that a woman in western society has maximum influence when she is reduced to an object of desire.

For someone so driven by quoting sources, you haven't cared to quote me. Instead, you have offered up your opinion only.

I haven't misinterpreted anything; you've made your position quite clear.

We should always be willing to view others interpretations, and make adjustments to our own. I do so with yours, and will continue to do so.

Love and Light

[Tilmeez]

I
Men are weak in regard to controlling their sexuality. This is not something that they should ignore. Instead of expecting someone else to take care their weakness (i.e. expecting women to cover up), they need to work on their own issues. By being unable to take responsibility for their own weakness, they are being lazy.

A health human(man or women) has the same intensity of desire for the sex.... only men are not weak (i am not saying this coz i am a man but it is fact.)
let us see this from an other point of view.... i.e. physical... in normal situation our sextual fetures remain silent and we intend to go about our daily life business...right??? Allah has created man and woman with different chemistry like man can develope sextual desire from sight only while it is not valid for women... right?? there for Islam ask women to cover theirselves and the same time asks men to keep their gaze LOWER to avoid this all.
Islam know that sex is an essential part of human life therefore it gives freedom of sex but in a limitation of NiKah.... this not only satisfy the desire for sex but also forms a strong social Unit... Islam counts women a respectable entity and to mantain this respect it has some rules.

An other aspect is looking at a woman or man other than your own weaken you body, nerve system etc.
to cut is short i belive that woman should be covered. it is her real beauty and respect that she is not that easy that eveyone can see and pass comments about her.... she is a respected member of our society and she has arrangements for all her physical, social and religious needs!!

[irsha]

A health human(man or women) has the same intensity of desire for the sex.... only men are not weak (i am not saying this coz i am a man but it is fact.)
let us see this from an other point of view.... i.e. physical... in normal situation our sextual fetures remain silent and we intend to go about our daily life business...right??? Allah has created man and woman with different chemistry like man can develope sextual desire from sight only while it is not valid for women... right?? there for Islam ask women to cover theirselves and the same time asks men to keep their gaze LOWER to avoid this all.
Islam know that sex is an essential part of human life therefore it gives freedom of sex but in a limitation of NiKah.... this not only satisfy the desire for sex but also forms a strong social Unit... Islam counts women a respectable entity and to mantain this respect it has some rules.

An other aspect is looking at a woman or man other than your own weaken you body, nerve system etc.
to cut is short i belive that woman should be covered. it is her real beauty and respect that she is not that easy that eveyone can see and pass comments about her.... she is a respected member of our society and she has arrangements for all her physical, social and religious needs!!

Wrong, i can easily get excited by the sight of a beautiful male or female body, this is not a male only thing. So, you see, you really do not understand what you think you did. You believe women should be covered, fine, I do not.

[F.Y.]

I also fail to understand how hijab keeps the male desire at bay. Perhaps there is much more to it than covering your hair. I just don't know many men who lust after hair. Instead, I think they would be lusting after the breasts, hips, legs....

You are right there. It is more than just hair. Maybe we should have cleared that up with you. Your dress in general should be long and cover your shape. You have probably seen women with the long cloaks on. Many women also cover their face.

Hope that helps.
Peace

[renak]

You are right there. It is more than just hair. Maybe we should have cleared that up with you. Your dress in general should be long and cover your shape. You have probably seen women with the long cloaks on. Many women also cover their face.

Hope that helps.
Peace

Actually, I've only seem that type of woman in pictures. The hijab wearing women where I live wear fashionable hijab which co-ordinates with their modern (often form fitting) outfits. So maybe the muslim ladies I'm accustomed to seeing are actually wearing the hijab with little or no benefit???? dunno:? :?

[F.Y.]

Wrong, i can easily get excited by the sight of a beautiful male or female body, this is not a male only thing. So, you see, you really do not understand what you think you did. You believe women should be covered, fine, I do not.

Yes, I understand. Both males and females can get excited just by looking at an attractive body. That is why God says in the Qur'an,

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and protect their private parts. That will make for greater purity for them. Verily, Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And tell the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not to display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof and to draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands..." (Holy Qur'an, 24:30-31)

Here it is clear both men and women are expected to be mindful of what they look at. So I agree with you that both men and women can get excited by looking.

Also, it is not only women that have a dress requirement. Men also have restrictions in terms of dress. It should be loose, not show shape and modest too and be covering at least from the navel to below the knee.

Hope that helps.

[F.Y.]

Actually, I've only seem that type of woman in pictures. The hijab wearing women where I live wear fashionable hijab which co-ordinates with their modern (often form fitting) outfits. So maybe the muslim ladies I'm accustomed to seeing are actually wearing the hijab with little or no benefit???? dunno:? :?

I see what you are saying. But I do not think that what they are wearing has little or no benefit. You see, even wearing hijab with the modern stuff they wear, the covering of the head has the effect of making you 'different' to the crowd. Even if men look, they would be wary of approaching someone sexually, who evidently has a belief system that seems so 'different' too. I have seen women wear the hijab like this when they are starting out and slowly trying to get themselves 'into the groove' of wearing the full dress thing. They are immediately treated differently, and most people are quite accepting and respectful of them.

Peace

[renak]

I see what you are saying. But I do not think that what they are wearing has little or no benefit. You see, even wearing hijab with the modern stuff they wear, the covering of the head has the effect of making you 'different' to the crowd. Even if men look, they would be wary of approaching someone sexually, who evidently has a belief system that seems so 'different' too. I have seen women wear the hijab like this when they are starting out and slowly trying to get themselves 'into the groove' of wearing the full dress thing. They are immediately treated differently, and most people are quite accepting and respectful of them.

Peace

I can see your point about men being afraid to approach them because of the difference. Thanks for your comments.:)

[Tilmeez]

Wrong, i can easily get excited by the sight of a beautiful male or female body, this is not a male only thing. So, you see, you really do not understand what you think you did. You believe women should be covered, fine, I do not.

Due to the shortage of time i could not see All of the Posts in the thread... just saw the First few and put down my own opinion (not knowing what actually was going on the thread) now i saw a FEW post beneath and above my post and realize that my opinion was clearer but every one took it as it was related to the previous posts..... no body took it as a point of view...

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings Renak

There is no need to say, "In my opinion..." for I typed the words; therefore, they cannot be anyone elses opinion.

I meant that it was your personal opinion vs. a substantiated argument.

I don't know where I stated this, or in the context it was stated. Are you sure this was me?

It was taken from your post here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/244420-post104.html

Thanks for the clarification.

You're welcome.

Would you happen to know of an easy to decipher list which outlines these two very different types of practices?

A list would be too long, but the decisive criteria to determine whether a practice is cultural or religious is to see if it has its basis in the Qur'an or the Sunnah (teachings of Prophet Muhammad pbuh). If it does its religious.

For someone so driven by quoting sources, you haven't cared to quote me. Instead, you have offered up your opinion only.

These are your statements I quoted:

However, in my society, as a working woman, I would not be accepted if I were covered.

Taken from you post here http://www.islamicboard.com/245182-post150.html
And:

I have the upper hand with a man who views me only as an object of desire.

Taken from your post here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/244383-post99.html

Based on these two comments, I said that you believe
a) you would not be accepted in society if you did not dress in a revealing manner pleasing to men and
b) that a woman in western society has maximum influence when she is reduced to an object of desire.

Peace

[Mohsin]

Lol good post Bro Ansar, i don't know why they keep doubting your word, i guess you're gonna have to remind them what they have said by repeatedlly giving them links to their own posts!

[renak]

Lol good post Bro Ansar, i don't know why they keep doubting your word, i guess you're gonna have to remind them what they have said by repeatedlly giving them links to their own posts!

Well I for one will continue to doubt his words until they make sense and are presented in a manner consistent with truth, and free from hostility. For example, if you look at the link he attached to show where I made the statement, "And how do you think such women are looked upon by society", you will find that I did not say this statement on this post. This lead to much confusion for me. Therefore, the issue is not that I doubt "his" words; instead, his answers have caused further confusion, and questions.

In addition, when I've asked for clarity, or deeper explanation; instead of an effort being made to offer up a different explanation, he issued insulting remarks and generalizations.

I do respect Islam, and will continue to explore this faith. However, dialogue in this manner is counterproductive, and only makes one want to avoid the religion.

[ummnasr]

Salams evryone, with topics like this, be very cafeful when discussing niqab with non -muslims, my mum is having problems with me wanting to wear it (she is a non-muslim) but not as much as the born muslims, I simply just say
Lakum deenukum wa liya deen
( aren't Allahs words perfect)

[renak]

Greetings Renak


A list would be too long, but the decisive criteria to determine whether a practice is cultural or religious is to see if it has its basis in the Qur'an or the Sunnah (teachings of Prophet Muhammad pbuh). If it does its religious.

Would information found in the hadiths be considered cultural or religious?

[cool_jannah]

Would information found in the hadiths be considered cultural or religious?

Believing in the Hadeeth is part of Muslim's Eemaan and Aqeedah(basic creed).
So it is definitely religious.
:)

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings Renak :)

Well I for one will continue to doubt his words until they make sense and are presented in a manner consistent with truth, and free from hostility.

As for 'making sense' and 'consistent with the truth' you are entitled to your opinion. And I am not sure what gave you the impression of hostility.

For example, if you look at the link he attached to show where I made the statement, "And how do you think such women are looked upon by society", you will find that I did not say this statement on this post. This lead to much confusion for me. Therefore, the issue is not that I doubt "his" words; instead, his answers have caused further confusion, and questions.

I understand that you were confused because I took it from one of your earlier posts, but I was simply reminding you of what you said, since you seemed to have forgotten.

In addition, when I've asked for clarity, or deeper explanation; instead of an effort being made to offer up a different explanation, he issued insulting remarks and generalizations.

Really? Where did I issue these insulting remarks and generalizations? Please show me. Actually when I gave you an explanation you replied, "this sounds like a cop out to me" [*]

However, dialogue in this manner is counterproductive, and only makes one want to avoid the religion.

Of course productive dialogue must be done with mutual respect. I have no problem explaining the Islamic perspective on morality for those who wish to understand it. But when someone is trying to explain something to you and you call it a cop-out, don't expect the discussion to be very productive.

Would information found in the hadiths be considered cultural or religious?

As mentioned by cool_jannah, it is religious.

From this post, I take it that you have decided to refrain from answering my post?

Peace.

[renak]

I understand that you were confused because I took it from one of your earlier posts, but I was simply reminding you of what you said, since you seemed to have forgotten.

Ansar, please go back and look at the attachment you posted, which was your attempt at reminding me of what I "said". It is not there. In addition, I feel that our dialogue is futile.

The comment about your explanation being "a cop out" was a bit harsh and I apologize. I've read the thread from the beginning and feel that your explanations would be better suited for someone already immersed in the religion of Islam. I'm sorry if I sounded rude in some of my comments, that was not my intention. In order for me to accept and adhere to a belief I need to examine all aspects of that belief. By asking further questions it is my intention to gain knowledge, or clarify what was already presented. Further questioning is not my way of opposing or mocking specific beliefs.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Renak

Ansar, please go back and look at the attachment you posted, which was your attempt at reminding me of what I "said".

Which statement is the one you feel I have mistakenly attributed to you?

Further questioning is not my way of opposing or mocking specific beliefs.

I understand :) . I hope that we can continue to provide you with answers in the spirit of spreading understanding.

Regards

[extinction]

wow this is truly something for all sisters to read and reflect on....Im a boy and it almost convinced me to start covering head to toe...lol..jokez

[Kittygyal]

wow this is truly something for all sisters to read and reflect on....Im a boy and it almost convinced me to start covering head to toe...lol..jokez

bro is this revelent to all the gyals?

take care

[sheerheart1]

do men have to see the outhside beuaty before the inside are we that vain ....( alhmdulilah my husband married me be cause i am beutiful on the inside ( but i am not ugly either so i am told) but see beuty of the face fades beauty of the heart stays) and the beauty of the heart shines out (noor)[PIE][/PIE]

[sheerheart1]

:giggling: no one ever heard what is covered and hidden is more beautiful than having all things on show so there is nothing to the imagination:statisfie ;D imagination is powerfull:thumbs_up :Alhumdill

[IbnAbdulHakim]

but see beuty of the face fades beauty of the heart stays) and the beauty of the heart shines out (noor)[PIE][/PIE]

thats beautiful :'(

[*charisma*]

Greetings,

Well, the difference is, I criticise the interpretation of the religion, you insult the person.

yea, u kill 3 birds with one stone..insult the interpretation of the religion, the interepreter, and the ones that agree with that interpretation...

btw, u didnt need to quote that whole thing he wrote, as im pretty sure we all know ur replying to him..

peace

[moujahid]

Shame on men who don't lower their gazes nor control their Nafs and shame on women who like to show their beauty to non-Mahram men.

[Shocked]

:sl:

Wow..... phew... took a bit of time to catch up on this thread...

From what I have learned so far, (correct me if I am wrong) the prophet Mohammed originally suggested the coveriung up of women not out of disrespect for women, but out of respect for them.
As I have heard, men do, whether we admit it or not, often have a deep desire to lust period.
I had understood it that in the old days of the time when Mohammed was around, most men would stare and gorp and women who were not covered.
Pretty mch the same as it is today for most men from all countries.

I found that this covering was originally more about protecting a woman from unwarranted sexual attention from lustign men who were out of control rather than it ever was about women being whores or dressing to incite sexual tension.

This is one thing about the Islamic faith that I think, (If I am right that is) most westerners do not really want to listen to but prefer to keep the misconception that Islam is a repressvie faith.
Personally I do not see Islam as that at all.

I think I can sort of understand why asian people could look at western women from an asian POV and see them as dressing like this to tease men, which is true a lot of the time, but to asssume that just because a woman has not covered herself means that she is deliberately trying to provoke a sexual response from a man is somewhat misguided in my opinion.
Many women just do not see it this deeply, whatever their faith.

Of course, most westerners probably think that the asian man has forced his wife to weare the full kit, but to be honest I think that this comes from a lack of understanding of the Islamic faith and a stupid media fed preconception that Islam is a faith to be feared, rather than a real mindset.

If asian Muslims were to be aware that we just dont do things the same way in the west, and that our culture is going through many changes all the time, maybe we could all learn to be more accepting of the other side.
For example, I think that the Koran lays out quite well that women are to be respected and looked after by men, not controlled and repressed.
The Bible says the same thing virtually in the same way.
Many asian Muslim women that I have spoke to feel that they like to cover, partly because they do not have men gorping and making them feel uncomfortable.

I think, regardless of our faith, we could all be walking into dangerous territory if either side assumes that a woman who is covered is controlled, or if we assume that all uncovered women are trying to provoke a sexual response from men.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but should we not all be looking at ways to live in better understanding and unity with each other, then maybe all of us would be coming closer to the true will of Allah?
Peace is good.

Chrsitians have very specific approaches to adornment aso, and have very specifc instructions about adultery.
For us, God advises against women dressing or adorning themselves in provocative manner because it can provoke a sexual response from a man, adultery can be commited by married Christians by just looking at another person lustfully, this is adultery of the heart and is not a good thing full stop, regardless of ones faith choice.
My view is that God makes it quite clear for both Muslims and Christians that havign these feelings for any9one other than your own wife / husband is a dangerous path to walk.

Makes a lot of sense to me.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Correct me if I am wrong here, but should we not all be looking at ways to live in better understanding and unity with each other, then maybe all of us would be coming closer to the true will of Allah?
Peace is good.

Absolutely. :) Thank you for your post, Shocked. It was a pleasure to read and nice to see your open-minded perspective.

Regards

[sheerheart1]

:sl:

Wow..... phew... took a bit of time to catch up on this thread...

Makes a lot of sense to me.

this was a really loverly reply :) i was really happy to read this :) may God bless u

[Emperor]

The Qur'an says women should dress in modest attire. It does not say women must be completely veiled as the women of Saudi Arabia veil.

[irsha]

The Qur'an says women should dress in modest attire. It does not say women must be completely veiled as the women of Saudi Arabia veil.

This is what I thought all along, I do not think that the black, drab all over coverings we see in saudi are what the prophet was talking about. I just think he meant modest clothing because it was pretty laweless out there back then, and best not to draw attention out in the desert, my opinion is that things have changed now and modesty is still important in certain situations- like if you are outside late at night on your own, or if you are going to someones house, or church or mosque where you will offend people by not dressing modestly

[Lush]

I have a Muslim friend who wears a bandana over her cropped hair as form of hijab. She was told she's "going to hell" by a woman who only wore niqaab outside the house.

Oh mutual respect, where hast thou gone?!

[Lush]

shame on women who like to show their beauty to non-Mahram men.

Oh I am so ashamed.

Once again, mutual respect is tough to come by these days, as I see. It's all right for you lot to slander people all day long, as this thread has clearly demonstrated.

Shame on you right back, buster.

[seek.learn]

:sl:

Wow..... phew... took a bit of time to catch up on this thread...

Peace,

I still havent caught up! Skipped from the first right here to the last...

Indeed your post was an extremely pleasant read. May God bless you.

Peace

[sheerheart1]

The Qur'an says women should dress in modest attire. It does not say women must be completely veiled as the women of Saudi Arabia veil.

its freedom of choice to wear niqaab or not

[sheerheart1]

Oh I am so ashamed.

Once again, mutual respect is tough to come by these days, as I see. It's all right for you lot to slander people all day long, as this thread has clearly demonstrated.

Shame on you right back, buster.

no one should slander anyone mutal respect should always be given by muslims and non muslims a person is known by thier manners:) that they are give and the use

[Lush]

But of course. But overall, this thread has been a disappointment. Shocked's wonderful post notwithstanding.

(Or maybe I'm having a bad day and pounced on something one person wrote. It's been known to happen. ;D )

[sheerheart1]

[S]

I have a Muslim friend who wears a bandana over her cropped hair as form of hijab. She was told she's "going to hell" by a woman who only wore niqaab outside the house[/S].

Oh mutual respect, where hast thou gone?!

so what your saying is that ur friend is wearing a bandana to cover her hair and a woman wearing niqaab and no hijaab told you friend she is going to hell ????????????????????????????? did i get that right or wrong??:rollseyes

[sheerheart1]

But of course. But overall, this thread has been a disappointment. Shocked's wonderful post notwithstanding.

(Or maybe I'm having a bad day and pounced on something one person wrote. It's been known to happen. ;D )

so your saying it does not happen muslim women are not judged this way for the way they dress by other religions this was the topic and shocked posted a wonderfull reply :)
and being asi posted the thread:rollseyes sorry if u did not like it:X

[sheerheart1]

But of course. But overall, this thread has been a disappointment. Shocked's wonderful post notwithstanding.

(Or maybe I'm having a bad day and pounced on something one person wrote. It's been known to happen. ;D )

keep patience my friend stay calm and smile:)

[Lush]

so what your saying is that ur friend is wearing a bandana to cover her hair and a woman wearing niqaab and no hijaab told you friend she is going to hell ????????????????????????????? did i get that right or wrong??

Well, the woman in question is completely covered, from head to toe. And she has a problem with women who aren't covered from head to toe like she is. My friend is a Muslim, but she's not a fan of Arab-insipired Muslim dress. She likes Edwardian, high-necked dresses and Victorian lace, as well as bandanas.

[sheerheart1]

[BANANA]well just get ur friend to tell her in a nice way that the prophet of islam pointed to 2 things that can be uncovered hands and face and it a freedom of choice to wear a face veil or not[/BANANA]

[ummnasr]

sorry can i bring to your attention that mary the mother of jesus also wore a head covering , to make her and keep her purity from others, hijab is something you see even the little old christian ladies wearing it , just out of repect for each other we should keep our opinions about niqaab to ourselves because their is istilaaf (uncertanty) reguarding this, im sure the girl who warned the girl with the bandanna was only trying to help , only go knows ourr real intentions

I have a Muslim friend who wears a bandana over her cropped hair as form of hijab. She was told she's "going to hell" by a woman who only wore niqaab outside the house.

Oh mutual respect, where hast thou gone?!

[Lush]

Telling someone "you dress like a ---- and are going to hell" is not helping them. It's insulting, denigrating, and plain wrong.

And if you urge to keep people's opinions of niqaab to yourself, then I can only hope that you keep your opinions on the way I dress to yourself as well. Respect should go both ways. It's not a one-way street.

[sheerheart1]

True, I couldn't care less what they wear. I certainly would not weasr it, but then I wouldn't wear a drop waist skirt either.

i would'nt wear a drop waist skirt either :giggling:

[sheerheart1]

[S]

Telling someone "you dress like a ---- and are going to hell" is not helping them. It's insulting, denigrating, and plain wrong. [/S]
[BANANA]And if you urge to keep people's opinions of niqaab to yourself, then I can only hope that you keep your opinions on the way I dress to yourself as well. Respect should go both ways. It's not a one-way street.

[/BANANA]
my dear friend some peoples views on what should not be and should be concerning islamic attire for ladies clothes in my opinion should be loose clothing and scarf where nothing of one's body shape is shown .

And i dont know how many sisters would agree with me.

but Allah knows best :)

also we are not supposed to point fingers at each other what we are supposed to wear and what we are the laws are laws that our beloved Allah has sent for us and what we should follow to the best of our ability

[ummnasr]

:sl: Exactly

[S][/BANANA]
my dear friend some peoples views on what should not be and should be concerning islamic attire for ladies clothes in my opinion should be loose clothing and scarf where nothing of one's body shape is shown .

but Allah knows best :)