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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-26-2005, 04:38 AM
The Sword Of Christ
By Ali Ataie
[Note from the Author: When reading this article, please keep in mind that as Muslims, we do NOT hold the following Bible verses regarding the beloved Prophet Jesus (Isa--peace be upong him) to be true. The points made, therefore, are only intended to expose the hypocrisy of the modern-day Christian Evangelical's claim that the Musim scripture advocates violence.]

It is quite common to hear in the West the notion that Islam "was spread by the sword." Did you know that the word "sword" does not even appear in the Qur'an? It does however, appear in the Bible, 434 times!

In fact the word sword appears in the Christian Holy Writ 114 times more than the word “peace.” The Old Testament, in particular, is riddled with stories of massacre and death. It certainly would not be out of line to characterize the Bible as an anthology of sex and violence. But what about the "meek and lowly" Jesus? Presented below are three passages in which the "Prince of Peace" calls for the sword!

It's amazing how easily we are all conditioned to think in certain ways during our lives. To date, there has not been a single "Jesus movie" in which all three or even two of these verses were in the script -- including “The Passion of the Christ.” Certainly John 3:16 sounds much more inviting. But if this is what the Gospels present as the true Jesus, then why are the Christians so ashamed to provide us with accurate information?

The answer is because as long as they are "catching fish," anything goes. A conversion to the worship of Christ is more valuable in Christian eyes than selling themselves out to lies and deceit. It is not uncommon to find Christian missionaries in the Middle East wearing Muslim garb, speaking Arabic, and sporting long Sunnah (prophetic) beards, all the while handing out Bibles in Arabic to children and claiming that it is the Qur’an.

Passage One: “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a SWORD. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10:34-37).

I will guarantee that if you were to examine all of the authentic sayings (hadith) of the Prophet Muhammad, which number in the several thousands, you will never come across anything remotely as blatant as "I came not to send peace, but a sword!" Never mind the fact that Jesus also advocates the killing of rebellious children (Mark 7:9-10) and supports the amputation of limbs that offend God (Matthew 5:29-30).

Passage Two: “For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and SLAY them before me. And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem” (Luke 19:26-28).

Passage Three: “But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment, and buy one” (Luke 22:36).

Obviously, the reaction of the Jews in Jerusalem was not what Jesus had expected. Although he longed to rule over his people, God's plan was different and Jesus never ascended into a position of power. The Christian contends that Jesus is here referring to a "spiritual sword!" Well, I suppose the garments in which we must sell are also spiritual. If the disciples sold their spiritual garments for spiritual swords then that would make them spiritually naked!

Was it with a spiritual sword that Peter struck the servant of the High Priest’s ear off? When Jesus sees Peter do this, that is, when he sees Peter strike the servant with a sword that he (Jesus) told Peter to purchase in the first place, Jesus rebukes him (in Matthew).

Why now? Because, the strategy has changed. Jesus did not expect to face trained Roman legionaries -- The Gospel of John is unique in identifying the band of men who accompanied the Jewish officers who arrested Jesus as a “speira;” a word that has a Latin origin and means “military cohort” or “detachment of soldiers”). It would have been total suicide for him to follow through with his Jihad (struggle).

These events reportedly occurred on the Mount of Olives in the Garden of Gethsemane, after the Last Supper. Why did Jesus decide to go there, and not to the Temple of Solomon if he was just planning on "praying?" After all, the Temple was only a "stone's throw" from the Upper Room where they had just finished eating and singing hymns.

Jesus goes to prepare for battle! He places eight disciples at the entrance of the Garden and then takes his three champion disciples, Peter the Rock, John, and James the "sons of Thunder" deeper inside to create an inner circle of defense. Peter, James, and John were all Galileans, and Galileans were renowned for two things: fishing and zealotry.

They were the fighting Irishmen of their day! In Mark, the earliest Gospel, we are told that after the disciples tuck-tail and run, leaving Jesus in the lurch, a certain young man who had been following Jesus is seized by the officers but manages to slip out of his linen garment and escape “naked.” I don’t remember seeing this in Mel Gibson’s rendition.

The reason is because this would have produced an instant burst of laughter from the audience that might have dampened the emotional hypnotism of the movie.

Why can't Hollywood make a movie that presents what the historical Jesus might have been like? Why? Because money talks! They get some guy of German or Swedish descent to play a Nazarene Jewish man of two thousand years ago and the public eats it up.

Can you imagine a Jewish actor with very Jewish physical features portraying Jesus?! There are American children who up until the age of puberty actually believe that Jesus' real name was "Jesus," that he was a white man with blue eyes, and that he spoke Queen's English!
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Khayal
04-19-2006, 05:23 AM
:sl:

An Interesting Article, jazaak ALLAH khayr. :rose:

:w:
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Trumble
04-19-2006, 06:11 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Passage One: “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a SWORD. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10:34-37).

I will guarantee that if you were to examine all of the authentic sayings (hadith) of the Prophet Muhammad, which number in the several thousands, you will never come across anything remotely as blatant as "I came not to send peace, but a sword!" Never mind the fact that Jesus also advocates the killing of rebellious children (Mark 7:9-10) and supports the amputation of limbs that offend God (Matthew 5:29-30).

Its a metaphor. As is Matthew 5, incidentally. Your interpretation of Mark 7 is laughable... what it actually says is

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death


Jesus (or Moses, or whoever actually wrote the text concerned) were not talking about "rebellious children", but the integrity and necessary respect of family life.



Most scholars, and Christians, agree the "sword" referred to is not literal, but is symbolic of divisions in the family (between believers and non-believers) that Jesus' mission will cause. It is a warning, rather than anything else, and can be linked to the other quote in suggesting that regardless of such divisions the essential respect for family should not be lost.



Passage Two: “For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and SLAY them before me. And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem” (Luke 19:26-28).
Again, hopelessly out of context. The start of your quote is the end of a parable (of the Pounds) - Jesus is actually quoting the king who is the subject of that parable which - by definition - is a metaphor.


[Passage Three: “But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment, and buy one” (Luke 22:36).
That one is still hotly debated. Personally, I would tend to go with a literal interpretation. I'm not a Christian, what I'm referring to is not events I think actually happened so much as what the authors of the gospels concerned intended.


I honestly can't see the point of this. No doubt if I was so inclined (I'm not) I could find a suitable selection of out-of-context quotes from the Qur'an to make pretty much any "point" about Islam that I wished. I'm sure that on the many websites, including Christian ones, that criticize Islam somebody already has. That wouldn't make such a point true, any more than is your suggestion that the Bible says Jesus somehow preached violence against the family is true. Historically, no doubt Christianity was often "spread by the sword", as was Islam. The reason in both cases is that those expansions had far more to do with land, gold and power they did with religion. Just as today, religion was only an excuse.



EDIT: My apologies Ansar, I managed to miss before that you were quoting, rather than those interpretations being yours. And the author's disclaimer, come to that. Oops.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-19-2006, 07:29 PM
Hello Trumble,

Originally Posted by Trumble
I honestly can't see the point of this.
I was just about to point out that you had skipped the beginning paragraph where the author explains The points made, therefore, are only intended to expose the hypocrisy of the modern-day Christian Evangelical's claim that the Musim scripture advocates violence., when I noticed your edition:
EDIT: My apologies Ansar, I managed to miss before that you were quoting, rather than those interpretations being yours. And the author's disclaimer, come to that. Oops.
Yes, that is fairly important in appreciating the article. It is meant to be a response so evangelicals who always take Qur'anic verses out of context. The author points out that if one takes a literal view of isolated texts in the New Testament, Christianity doesn't look so peaceful anymore.

And I agree with your conclusion that religion is only an excuse in most cases. See this KKK interpretation of the verse from Matthew 10 for example:
http://k-k-k.com/peace.html

Regards
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Grace Seeker
02-08-2007, 02:10 AM
I appreciate that as you point out there is some hypocrisy in those who on the one hand declare Islam to have been spread by the sword, while at the same time history has shown many Christians willing to freely wield it as well.

However, beyond claiming that Muslims do not even believe these to represent the true sayings of Jesus, I think it is a stretch to make them into some sort of violence promoting advocacy -- Trumble (a Buddhist, not a Christian) showed why significantly well enough that I need not repeat his points a second time. Thus to declare hypocrisy based on these scriptual passages is disingenious.


However with respect to the most disturbing of these passages, Passage Three: “But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment, and buy one” (Luke 22:36). I want to take exception to the particular interpretation given above:

Obviously, the reaction of the Jews in Jerusalem was not what Jesus had expected. Although he longed to rule over his people, God's plan was different and Jesus never ascended into a position of power. The Christian contends that Jesus is here referring to a "spiritual sword!" Well, I suppose the garments in which we must sell are also spiritual. If the disciples sold their spiritual garments for spiritual swords then that would make them spiritually naked!

Was it with a spiritual sword that Peter struck the servant of the High Priest’s ear off? When Jesus sees Peter do this, that is, when he sees Peter strike the servant with a sword that he (Jesus) told Peter to purchase in the first place, Jesus rebukes him (in Matthew).

Why now? Because, the strategy has changed. Jesus did not expect to face trained Roman legionaries -- The Gospel of John is unique in identifying the band of men who accompanied the Jewish officers who arrested Jesus as a “speira;” a word that has a Latin origin and means “military cohort” or “detachment of soldiers”). It would have been total suicide for him to follow through with his Jihad (struggle).

These events reportedly occurred on the Mount of Olives in the Garden of Gethsemane, after the Last Supper. Why did Jesus decide to go there, and not to the Temple of Solomon if he was just planning on "praying?" After all, the Temple was only a "stone's throw" from the Upper Room where they had just finished eating and singing hymns.

Jesus goes to prepare for battle! He places eight disciples at the entrance of the Garden and then takes his three champion disciples, Peter the Rock, John, and James the "sons of Thunder" deeper inside to create an inner circle of defense.

First, it is NOT at all obvious that Jesus was surprised by the reaction of the Jews of Jerusalem. Indeed, my reading of the text and context shows that Jesus seems to fully anticipate his death, even before he sets out for Jerusalem, and as the anticipated time of it grows closer it weighs heavily on him.

Why go to the garden to pray? Jesus is reported frequently in scripture to go off by himself to pray. Going to the temple as the author suggests might have been closer, but it would not have been as private, not even early in the morning. Jerusalem was a beehive of activity in the days leading up to the passover.

Second, to suppose that Jesus, after rejecting the offering of all the kingdoms of the world at the beginning of his earthly ministry, would now seek power is ridiculous. Yes, Jesus did suggest to his disciples that they be prepared to buy a sword. And yes, perhaps even a real sword. But again, it is in the context of contrasting how they went forth on the last time that he sent them out. On that occassion when they went out they took nothing and yet lacked for nothing. Now Jesus wants them to be prepared for the struggle that awaits them. But the idea that he is planning to lead some sort of jihad against either Rome or the Jewish authorities can only come from the mind of those who think in terms of physical jihads, not just spiritual ones. It certainly is not on Jesus' mind. For when they left, the disciples said they had two swords, and Jesus said it was enough. Now, given the size of force easily massed by either the temple authorities or the Roman occupiers, two swords woud never have been considered sufficient for any sort of physical jihad.

And when his disciples use one of those swords, as is indicated, Jesus rebukes him. The article's author quoted Luke's account of the story. There is a little more insight gained from Matthew's account of the same incident:
Matthew 26
52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
Here we see that not only does Jesus rebuke them for using the sword, but gives a reason why. That reason is indeed based on the principles of peace. Further, Jesus asserts that if his intent was some sort of jihad, that he certainly does not need the disciples' swords to accomplish it. But he has not come for that purpose.

Jesus says that he understands his life to be a fulfillment of the scriptures regrading the Messiah, which he has previously explained as one in which the Messiah gives up his life sacrificially. Others at the time did not understand this to be the Messiah's role. There are even still those today who reject that idea, but this was Jesus' understanding. That is what is important.

So, why did Jesus ever suggest the need for a sword? Truly I don't know. The best anyone can do today is speculate. The article's author has made one set of speculations that he rejects as ever being true of Jesus, and thus they must be the later invention of Christianity. Well, that interpretation lies outside the rest of Christianity's understanding of Jesus, which even he admits is the dominant understanding. And it is inconsistant with the facts of the case. But if we are speculating, might it be that since the disciples are going to be left on their own, at least for a time no longer lacking in nothing (as Jesus makes that the context in which he suggested getting a sword to begin with) that the disciples (not Jesus) will need a sword for self-protection. Perhaps from robbers as they travel through the night? Or as with many tools, a sword is just a tool we (because of our violent nature) assume to be used for fighting, but it may also have other uses that are completely non-violent in nature? I think of the many uses I have for a machete when camping, none of which are violent to anything other than fish. Hmmm? These fishermen might use a sword the way I use my machete for preparing fish to cook. With Jesus knowing that he was about to be arrested and the disciples would be left on their own for a time, wouldn't that make sense. Incidently, the typical sword of that day was about the size of a modern machete.

The author wrote with the intent of exposing the hypocrisy of the modern-day Christian Evangelical's claim that the Musim scripture advocates violence. Well, it is a shame the so many Christians, in their naivette, are convinced that the Muslim scripture advocates violence when it is not present. But to then be guilty of the same sort of behavior in "exposing" it and accusing Christians of hypocrisy when the Christians scriptures do not advocate it any more than the Muslim scriptures, that is just as big of a shame. And the hyprocrisy is in the fact that the author even admitted that he didn't believe Christ ever advocated violence to begin with.


Lastly, I ask you to take a closer look at the wording of this portion of the article:
Peter, James, and John were all Galileans, and Galileans were renowned for two things: fishing and zealotry.

They were the fighting Irishmen of their day!
I am sorry, but this smacks of namecalling at the least, and downright bigotry as a possiblity. It is a slur against both Galileans and Irishmen.

Against Galilean in that they would be "renowned for two things". Really? So that's it? They had no other talents? How about the business acuem as the commercial crossroads of the region? How about their devotion to the word of God as they established synagogues for the study of God's word throughout? But no, just two things, fishing and zealotry.

If anyone was to say similar things about a group of people today, I think it would be taken as an insult. Best not say it to an Irishman, because an Irishman would pick a fight with you. Afterall, according to the author, fighting is the character of Irishmen, or so he has labelled them.

How does such language show the respect that is the rules governing this forum: "10. Racist remarks will not be permitted since racism doesn't hold a place in Islam."?
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dougmusr
02-08-2007, 03:46 AM
Passage One: “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a SWORD. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10:34-37).
So if a Muslim converts to Christianity, what is the characteristic response of the family in places like Indonesia, Saudia Arabia, Iran, etc?
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Trumble
02-08-2007, 09:40 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
It is quite common to hear in the West the notion that Islam "was spread by the sword." Did you know that the word "sword" does not even appear in the Qur'an? It does however, appear in the Bible, 434 times!

Hardly a strong point. Historically Islam was, to a large extent "spread by the sword", something from which Christianity was hardly immune either. As to the respective Holy books, mentioning the "sword" or not, the Qur'an says (and it's by far from the only military reference)

Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not. (2:216)

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (9:5)

Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book tribute with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29).
At least the Bible has the excuse that most of it's military references are historical and many of the New Testament 'sword' references purely metaphorical.



Why can't Hollywood make a movie that presents what the historical Jesus might have been like? Why? Because money talks! They get some guy of German or Swedish descent to play a Nazarene Jewish man of two thousand years ago and the public eats it up.

Can you imagine a Jewish actor with very Jewish physical features portraying Jesus?! There are American children who up until the age of puberty actually believe that Jesus' real name was "Jesus," that he was a white man with blue eyes, and that he spoke Queen's English!
Good point. To be fair, though, I think Mel did try as far as he could within the bounds of his own Catholicism and what people would actually come to see, and the result was a very powerful movie in many ways. As to what came before, that's Hollywood for you. Movies have to make money, and to do that they (generally) have to produce what people are expecting to see. That was probably more true in the past than now, though.. can you imagine what response 'Passion of the Christ' would have got in the 1950s?!
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Eric H
02-08-2007, 10:57 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Grace Seeker; I feel you have given a good response. But I wonder if there is another explanation for the disciples carrying swords.

Jesus taught his disciples about the way God works, and his examples always seemed very practical and based on real situations. Supposing Jesus had told his disciples to leave all their swords behind and not take them to the Garden of Gethsemane.

When the soldiers came some of the disciples might have thought if only we had swords we could fight our way out of this. Even today if we had read these scriptures we might have wondered what the out come would have been if the disciples were all armed. We don't have those doubts because the disciples had swords

Just by one of the disciples using a sword to cut off an ear of his opponent we see in a real situation and we see how Jesus responds to violence.

Dying by a sword is not the worst thing that can happen to you. The bottom line is there is life after death, our lives are finally in the hands of God.

In the spirit of searching for peace on Earth

Eric
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Grace Seeker
02-08-2007, 05:20 PM
Good point, Eric.

And Jesus didn't actually tell his disciples to bring any sword with them on that occassion. He told them that they should be prepared for the future and in a way that would be different than the past, that is the context in which he mentioned swords. And then, he left with them to go to the Garden. The disciples, on having just received the other instructions in which Jesus metioned for each person to buy a sword and which Jesus may have met just as metaphorically as each of his other recorded references to swords, were once again thinking in concrete rather than abstract terms and actually started looking around for swords to bring. So, rather than having each disciple go out and buy a sword Jesus said that in concrete terms 2 swords is enough for 11 disciples -- in other words, perhaps they really didn't need them at all, and the disciples had once again missed what Jesus was driving at, but now he just wanted to pray. So rather than correct them he set out for the garden.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-08-2007, 06:20 PM
Greetings,

Note that earlier in this thread, Trumble jumps to conclusions and then must apologise for himself:

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Hello Trumble,

Originally Posted by Trumble
I honestly can't see the point of this.
I was just about to point out that you had skipped the beginning paragraph where the author explains The points made, therefore, are only intended to expose the hypocrisy of the modern-day Christian Evangelical's claim that the Musim scripture advocates violence., when I noticed your edition:
EDIT: My apologies Ansar, I managed to miss before that you were quoting, rather than those interpretations being yours. And the author's disclaimer, come to that. Oops.
Yes, that is fairly important in appreciating the article. It is meant to be a response so evangelicals who always take Qur'anic verses out of context. The author points out that if one takes a literal view of isolated texts in the New Testament, Christianity doesn't look so peaceful anymore.
So the point was already made TWICE in the thread, and amazingly even though I referred Trumble to an article that debunks misquotations from the Qur'an, he proceeds to quote those exact same misquoted verses!

Trumble writes in his most recent post:
the Qur'an says (and it's by far from the only military reference)
Good grief, are we going to resort to the age-old ignorant misquotations even after I have provided an article with extensive research on the exegeses? Is this just a request for me to waste time copy-pasting the previous responses which were left untouched?

Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not. (2:216)
Already answered:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...sconceptions#2

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (9:5)
Answered here:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...sconceptions#9

Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book tribute with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29).
Answered here:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#13

If objective criticism on the forum has truly deteriorated to this level, then I really don't need to return since everything that is being posted has already been answered!


Greetings Eric and GraceSeeker,
Thanks for your comments on the scenario being cited from the NT.

Originally Posted by GraceSeeker
Yes, Jesus did suggest to his disciples that they be prepared to buy a sword. And yes, perhaps even a real sword [...]
So, why did Jesus ever suggest the need for a sword? Truly I don't know. The best anyone can do today is speculate.
Yet I disagree with your conclusions about the intent of the author, Ali Ataie.
Originally Posted by GraceSeeker
The author wrote with the intent of exposing the hypocrisy of the modern-day Christian Evangelical's claim that the Musim scripture advocates violence. Well, it is a shame the so many Christians, in their naivette, are convinced that the Muslim scripture advocates violence when it is not present. But to then be guilty of the same sort of behavior in "exposing" it and accusing Christians of hypocrisy when the Christians scriptures do not advocate it any more than the Muslim scriptures, that is just as big of a shame.
I'm not sure how else you want him to point out the hypocrisy if he is not allowed to say, "Hey, the way in which you guys are misquoting the Qur'an can be done also to the NT".
And the hyprocrisy is in the fact that the author even admitted that he didn't believe Christ ever advocated violence to begin with.
That's not hypocrisy, that's making an honest disclaimer so that people know right from the get-go that the purpose of the article is just to show how the erroneous methods of certain evangelicals in misquoting the Qur'an apply just as well to their own texts.

Regards
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wilberhum
02-08-2007, 09:48 PM
I always enjoy irrelevant statements like:
Did you know that the word "sword" does not even appear in the Qur'an?
Unless you want to go on the assumption that every Muslim is a good Muslim and only does what the Quran says it is pointless.
I find it astounding that anyone of any religion would even conceder it possible that no one person ever converted because of threat of death.
War has helped spread every religion, so has slavery. If that is not by the sword, then I don’t understand. Whether or not a religion advocates using violence to spread the faith it is not the only factor. The largest factor is what people do.
I also would find it astounding if some one would conceder it possible that the majority of conversions were not what was honestly felt in the hart.
But then I don’t subscribe to any “Party Line” and I’m just me being me.
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Trumble
02-08-2007, 11:15 PM
Oh, forget it. That's what you get from dredging up ancient threads.
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Goku
02-09-2007, 01:46 AM
Interesting....
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-09-2007, 02:19 AM
Just because you think its impossible, doesnt mean it is.
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Grace Seeker
02-09-2007, 02:24 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Just because you think its impossible, doesnt mean it is.
huh???
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-09-2007, 02:24 AM
Sorry i was talking to wilber :X
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Grace Seeker
02-09-2007, 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Sorry i was talking to wilber :X
OK, so now I understand what your comment was in reference to.

Wilberhum made his statement in a negative form. But stating his comment positively, he is saying that he believes that there have been people who converted from one religion to another because they were threatened by death. He didn't say between which religions, just that he would be amazed if we didn't believe that the threat of death might have lead to some converstions. And we know that this is an historically true statement. Many Jews were converted to Christianity at the point of the sword during the Spanish Inquisition. So, surely, we can concede with him that this is a possibility, since we already know it to in fact be a reality. And given that, perhaps some others have converted between other faiths too? My guess is that some Christians converted to Roman paganism during the time of the persecutions. Don't you suppose that perhaps some Muslims might have converted to Christianity during the crusades or that some Christians might have converted Islam during the Moors occupation of Spain or the Ottoman conquest of Byzantium (modern day Istanbul), and that perhaps some of these were under the threat of death?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-09-2007, 02:43 AM
I didn't deny anything because I don't know enough to make such a statement. BUT my point was it's not impossible.
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Grace Seeker
02-09-2007, 02:49 PM
Yeah, I got that. So, I'm asking two new questions:

1) Do you consider it possible that perhaps some Muslims might have converted to Christianity during the crusades under the threat of death?
2) Do you consider it possible that perhaps some Christians might have converted to Islam during either the Moors occupation of Spain or the Ottoman conquest of Byzantium (modern day Istanbul) under the threat of death?

If you don't know for sure, do you consider it:
(a) highly probable?
(b) possible but not probable?
(c) highly improbably, but not impossible?
(d) absolutely impossible?
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Idris
02-09-2007, 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Hardly a strong point. Historically Islam was, to a large extent "spread by the sword", something from which Christianity was hardly immune either.
I am not sure where you get your "facts" from but maybe you should read this.
http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=43087&ln=eng
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Grace Seeker
02-09-2007, 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by Idris
I am not sure where you get your "facts" from but maybe you should read this.
http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=43087&ln=eng
According to that site the answer would be YES, Islam was spread by the sword:
It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (12/14):

Islam spread by means of proof and evidence to those who listened to the message and responded to it, and it spread by means of force and the sword to those who were stubborn and arrogant, until they were overwhelmed and became no longer stubborn, and submitted to that reality.

And Allaah knows best.
(emphasis mine)
It seems to say that in Islam's view, taking up the sword was justified. But this discussion has never question anyone's motives for using the sword, just whether or not it was part of any religions modus operandi. I would have said it was not any more a part of Islam than it is of Christianity till you pointed me to this source. This source seems to both acknowledge its intentional use and then justify it within Islam.

Is that what you wanted me to get from it?
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Trumble
02-09-2007, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Idris
I am not sure where you get your "facts" from but maybe you should read this.
http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=43087&ln=eng
Maybe you should read THIS. There is a huge difference between interpretations of religious passages and a complete denial of history.
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wilberhum
02-11-2007, 10:01 PM
Islam spread by means of proof and evidence to those who listened to the message and responded to it, and it spread by means of force and the sword to those who were stubborn and arrogant, until they were overwhelmed and became no longer stubborn, and submitted to that reality.
What a great refference. I have to keep this one.
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Abdul-Raouf
09-05-2007, 06:49 AM
Interestin article ...

Jazakallah khair
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Malaikah
09-05-2007, 07:23 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
It seems to say that in Islam's view, taking up the sword was justified. But this discussion has never question anyone's motives for using the sword, just whether or not it was part of any religions modus operandi. I would have said it was not any more a part of Islam than it is of Christianity till you pointed me to this source. This source seems to both acknowledge its intentional use and then justify it within Islam.

Is that what you wanted me to get from it?
From what I understood, Islamic rule spread to many places by the sword (in other words, it was only through war that countries became part of the Islamic empire). But as for the people converting to Islam and actually becoming Muslims, that was not done by sword (expect perhaps for a few isolated incidences in history, but that is not permissible anyway).
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Abdul-Raouf
09-05-2007, 01:01 PM
If u want to know about the Sword of Muhammad Nabi (SAS)

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ri-avnery.html
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wilberhum
09-05-2007, 04:27 PM
I still like
Islam spread by means of proof and evidence to those who listened to the message and responded to it, and it spread by means of force and the sword to those who were stubborn and arrogant, until they were overwhelmed and became no longer stubborn, and submitted to that reality.
It speeks well to intollorance mixed with facts.
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